Scottish names of Serbian origin
Zizovic Aleksandar
people, I found some registry of Scottish last names. While I was reading
that, I noticed that some of that last names have a meaning in Serbian
language but I do not find any meaning for them in any other language. I
will appriciate if someone could tell me does they have any meaning on any
other language and what does they mean.
There are Scottish last names that are same as:
Serbian names: Dejan, Dean (ser. "Dejan"), Rayko (ser. "Rajko"), Lazarus
(ser. "Lazar"), Lazo (ser. short from "Lazar"), Novak, Nowak (ser. "Novak"),
MacMillan, McMillan, Mcmillan, Mcmillan, Jr, Mcmillian, Milam (ser.
"Milan"), Luke, Lukin ("son of Luka"), Ogden (ser. "Ognjen");
Serbian nick-names: Sale (serbian nick name for "Aleksandar" or "Sasa"),
Miles (ser. "Mile", Serbian nick-name), Costa (ser. "Kosta"), Cane (very
popular Serbian nick-name), Snaza is similar to "snaga" (=eng. "strength")
and "Sneza" (short from "Snezana", Serbian female name);
Names like: Rankin (=eng. "son of Ranka"), Sawin (ser. "Savin" =eng.
"son of Sava"), Petke ("son of Petka"), Sovine ("of/from the owl");
Objects, animals, plants, etc: Tabor (=eng. "camp"), Torr (ser. "tor"
=eng. "pen", "sheep-fold"), Kerr (ser. "ker" =eng. "dog"), Sokol (=eng.
"hawk", "falcon"), Riis, Van Rys (ser. "ris" =eng. "lynx"), Roy, Van Roy
(ser. "roj" =eng. "swarm"), Kersten (ser. "kesten" =eng. "chestnut",
"chestnut-tree"), Durbin (=eng. "field-glass", "telescope"), Van Orden (ser.
"orden" =eng. "medal"), Prutt (ser. "prut" =eng. "birch", "switch"), Warnica
(ser. "varnica" =eng. "spark", "sparkle"), Stitt (ser. "stit" =eng.
"shield"), Salas (=eng. "farm"), Malter (=eng. "mortar");
Human characteristicks: Gabor (serbian word for extremely ugly person),
Woden (ser. "voden" =eng. "watery", "aqueous", "of water", "diluted",
"waterish"), Cowan (ser. "kovan" =eng. "malleable"), Parker (=eng.
"floorer"), Rus (=eng. "Russian");
There are also some interesting last names like: Sorbs (one of earlier
names for Serbian tribes), Retka (sounds like Serbian name which means "very
rear", but I have never heard it before), and my favourite: Sisemore
(something like "give me that fucking teats!")
Zizovic M. Aleksandar, SERBIA
P.S. If someone would like to contact me, my e-mail is ziz...@bitsyu.net
VonQuark
may be an explanation for this.
Alb- is an Indo-European word root
for white. for example: Alb-ino.
ALaBaster is very white powder.
One version of the Celtic migrations
has them coming out of Scythia (Ukraine/Caucuses)
and moving West through Northern
Greece (Macedonia), then along the Adriatic up until
the Alpine areas. (Switzerland was originally called
the Helvetic Republic after the Helveti, a Celtic tribe)
from there they tracked to Gaul and then to the
British Isles.
Notice the word roots
Alb- white in IE word roots
Albania
Alps - white snow covered Mountains
Alba - Gaelic name for Scotland (the Scot come
from Scyt in Scythia)
And of course the Scottish name
MacAlpin. As well as certain names in Italy,
remember the Celts sacked Rome.
Albano for example. Albanese.
All of this is in the area where the Serbs are
now today. Albanian is similar to Celtic tongues
I believe. Originally the whole area was
called Illyrians by the Latins. (see this site)
http://theillyrians.homestead.com/
Notice this quote at that site:
There appears to have been a
large Celtic element in Illyria, and Celtic
place names are common. The ancient
Illyrian language falls into two groups,
the northern, closely connected with
Venetic, and the southern, perhaps
allied to Messapic and now probably
represented by Albanian. The Venetic
and Messapic languages may have been
extractions of the Indo-European
Illyrian language.
Note: The Venetii were a Celtic sea faring
tribe in the area of what is today Venice.
Irish (Milesian Scot) legends speak of the Ta Danaan
coming in from Greece. As well as the Fir Bolg.
If one draws a line from Albania to Scotland
on a map it is a rough equivalent of the Celtic
migrations through Europe. Northern Italy,
Switzerland, Northern France, and Britain
will be marked.
So this may explain the similarities. Of course,
it could still be explained by simple IE heritage
common to all of Europe but I think an
ancient Celtic/Albanian connection is clear.
Christopher Gwinn
> for white. for example: Alb-ino.
> ALaBaster is very white powder.
Yes - it is a root common to many different IE branches
> One version of the Celtic migrations
> has them coming out of Scythia (Ukraine/Caucuses)
> and moving West through Northern
> Greece (Macedonia), then along the Adriatic up until
> the Alpine areas. (Switzerland was originally called
> the Helvetic Republic after the Helveti, a Celtic tribe)
> from there they tracked to Gaul and then to the
> British Isles.
And whose version of the "Celtic migrations" would this be? Certainly not
any modern scholar's.
> Notice the word roots
>
> Alb- white in IE word roots
> Albania
> Alps - white snow covered Mountains
> Alba - Gaelic name for Scotland (the Scot come
> from Scyt in Scythia)
Wrong - Scotti comes from a native Celtic source - it is not related to the
word Scythian at all (which isn't even what the Scythians called themselves
anyway!).
> And of course the Scottish name
> MacAlpin. As well as certain names in Italy,
> remember the Celts sacked Rome.
> Albano for example. Albanese.
You are so off track, it is quite funny.
> All of this is in the area where the Serbs are
> now today. Albanian is similar to Celtic tongues
> I believe. Originally the whole area was
> called Illyrians by the Latins. (see this site)
> http://theillyrians.homestead.com/
What are you talking about?? Albanian is not similar to Celtic at all - in
fact, Albanian is one of the most warped IE languages going - it is hardly
even recognizable as an IE language, and is in its own family amongst the IE
branches.
> Note: The Venetii were a Celtic sea faring
> tribe in the area of what is today Venice.
BS - the Veneti of Italy did not speak a Celtic language (we can tell this
from Venetic inscriptions)! You do not even know what you are talking
about - you have confused them with the Ueneti of Brittany.
> Irish (Milesian Scot) legends speak of the Ta Danaan
> coming in from Greece. As well as the Fir Bolg.
No - early medieveal Christian monks in Ireland invented these tales, based
mostly on a mix of Christian, late classical speculations (such as Orosius
and Isidore) and native traditions - they are not ancient tales at all -
furthermore, they are not accurate in the slightest bit.
> If one draws a line from Albania to Scotland
> on a map it is a rough equivalent of the Celtic
> migrations through Europe. Northern Italy,
> Switzerland, Northern France, and Britain
> will be marked.
>
> So this may explain the similarities. Of course,
> it could still be explained by simple IE heritage
> common to all of Europe but I think an
> ancient Celtic/Albanian connection is clear.
Oh please! Very scientific of you!
- Chris Gwinn
Christopher Gwinn
> >Wrong - Scotti comes from a native Celtic source
>
> never got a good answer on what Irish or Brythonic word they might
> have got it from
Scot[t]- is a well attested element in Gaulish names. It apparently meant
something like "slayer" in Celtic, though other etymologies (like "dark")
are possible.
- Chris Gwinn
Alan Smaill
Can you point us to some attestation for this?
And why would this carry through from Gaulish to Gaelic, in the same form?
>
> - Chris Gwinn
>
>
--
Alan Smaill email: A.Sm...@ed.ac.uk
Division of Informatics tel: 44-131-650-2710
Edinburgh University
Christopher Gwinn
meant
> > something like "slayer" in Celtic, though other etymologies (like
"dark")
> > are possible.
>
> Can you point us to some attestation for this?
See both Joshua Whatmough's "Dialects of Ancient Gaul" as well as P.H.
Billy's "Thesaurus Linguae Gallicae" for the attestations. You may also wish
to consult D. E. Evans "Gaulish Personal Names".
Here are a couple of examples from Gaul:
CIL 12, 01318 = ILGN 204.
M(arti) / Scotia(n)/us(?) v(otum) / s(olvit) l(ibens) m(erito)
CIL 13, 05372.
Mercurio / M(arcus) Mamma/ius Scottus / v(otum) s(olvit) l(ibens) m(erito)
CIL 13, 05759.
D(is) M(anibus) // Divixtae / Scottus mar(itus) / p(onendum) c(uravit)
> And why would this carry through from Gaulish to Gaelic, in the same form?
Well, it could also be Brittonic and not just Goidelic. If Scotto- was a
Common Celtic adjective/noun, then it could easily have existed in
Gallo-Brittonic as well as Goidelic. At the time when the name Scotti first
begins to be used (first known source is ca. 312 AD), the Insular Celtic
languages had not yet made the drastic changes that make the medieval forms
of these languages look so different from Gaulish. We would fully expect a
Common Celtic plural *Scottoi- to look like Scotti in the Goidelic and
Brittonic of the 3rd, 4th centuries AD.
- Chris Gwinn
VonQuark
and Serbs in Antiquity:
Beginning about 300 BC, bands of
Celts began to penetrate southward. Their
superiority rested in part on their mastery
of iron technology, which they used to beat
both swords and plowshares. The extent of
Celtic expansion is indicated not only by their
material remains but also by place-names.
The name Singidunum, by which the Romans
knew the settlement on the site of Belgrade, is
at least partly of Celtic origin.
Source:
http://www.decani.yunet.com/serhist.html
The connection of Venice, the Celts, and the
Venetii
First, I hope you do not doubt that the Celts
once sacked Rome.
This site lists the Venetii as a Celtic Tribe with
this quote:
Caesar engaged and defeated the fleet of
the Celtic tribe known as the Venetii who
opposed him
And many sources place these Venetii on the
Adriatic coasts of Italy and Dalmatia originally.
This history of Croatia avers and I quote:
http://www.croatia.net/html/history.html
The documented history of Croatia begins with
Greek colonies established along the Dalmatian
coast beginning with the fourth century BC. The
interior was then dominated by tribal peoples,
with the Celts most significant
My claims are NOT baseless.
Bryn Fraser
<vonq...@mindspring.com> writes
I concur, there is a vast body of *fragmentary* evidence to suggest that
that Eastern Adriatic culture found its way to the Northern Seas. When
the process started is a matter of speculation. It was firmly underway
by 200 BC.
Bryn
Nice Mr Mussolini would make the trains run on time...
http://www.finhall.demon.co.uk http://www.thefrasers.com
Foot & Mouth Latest:
http://www.eastpenrest.freeserve.co.uk/foot-and-mouth.htm
Standard Disclaimer: This post contains nothing about Peter Nyikos.
ZsaZsa
news:ip3vkt49tvmjc5jp8...@4ax.com...
> Scríobh Christopher Gwinn <WHL37.24467$16.23...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com>
> >Wrong - Scotti comes from a native Celtic source
>
> Whats the Celtic source? I know the Romans used the words, but I've
> never got a good answer on what Irish or Brythonic word they might
> have got it from
I remember reading in a Canadian newspaper a few years back that the Romans
had sent men to scout Ireland and Scotland, and they never returned,
supposedly the Scotti were the progeny of these scouts!!!! LOL
Zizovic Aleksandar
VQ> for white. for example: Alb-ino.
VQ> ALaBaster is very white powder.
On Serbian we say "belo" for "white" or "bela" if it is about female
(example: ser. "bela devojka" =eng. "white girl"). "Bella" is Italian word
which means "pretty"; so the "white girl" will be "pretty girl" (sounds
reasonable for me). I see there some connection, probably you will see it
too.
VQ> Alb- white in IE word roots
VQ> Albania
VQ> Alps - white snow covered Mountains
VQ> Alba - Gaelic name for Scotland (the Scot come from Scyt in Scythia)
Albanians was one of the ancient tribes in Middle east. These Albanians
do not have any connection with this Albanians. These Albanians was made out
of nowhere, nation born from union of some Serbian and some
Turkish/half-Turkish tribes which haven't even existed before some time.
Their greatest hero is Skenderbeg, who was Serbian nobleman, vassal lived on
Royal Ottoman Castle and was favorite man of emperor Bajazit.
VQ> Albanian is similar to Celtic tongues. I believe.
You are wrong. I don't know many about Albanian language but I know that
they sound like gypsies, Turks, etc.
VQ> So this may explain the similarities. Of course, it could still be
VQ> explained by simple IE heritage common to all of Europe but I think an
VQ> ancient Celtic/Albanian connection is clear.
I do not see what is so interested in Albania ?!? If Scots are like
Albanians... :( then I am disappointed. Try to live amongst Albanians and
you'll see what a people are they.
Many historians do not consider Serbs at all when they write about
history. For example, there was <Place names like that of Ulcinj come from
the Albanian word for wolf which is "ujku."> There is Serbian name for
"wolf" which is "vuk" and "wolves" which is "vuci". "Ulcinj" could be from
"Vuci" (Vuci=>Vulcinj=>Ulcinj). There are names like "Ister", old name of
Danube river. We call it "Istra" and we have a word "bistra" which
means "clear", "transparent", which is normal name for the river - "Clear
river".
> >Wrong - Scotti comes from a native Celtic source
> Whats the Celtic source? I know the Romans used the words, but I've
> never got a good answer on what Irish or Brythonic word they might
> have got it from
I think it may be from:
1) "scouts", scout-horsemen or something like that;
2) from viewpoint of Serbian language (which probably is not important for
this case, but it should be mentioned), name Scotts may come from ser.
"skrt" =eng. "avaricious", "niggardly" ; "skrti" is plural from "skrt".
This must not be considered as insult because it is not, I just want to
help.
> Some more connections between the Celts
> and Serbs in Antiquity:
> The name Singidunum, by which the Romans
> knew the settlement on the site of Belgrade, is
> at least partly of Celtic origin.
Yes, I knew. To be more precisely, it is well known fact here in Serbia.
There are much more connections between Serbs nad Celts. One of Serbian
main characteristics in that there/we are of Dinaric race. I heard that on
north-east of Scotland and north-west of Norwegia have a lot of Dinaricks;
no anthropologist can explain how can Dinaricka be so far from Balkan. Many
Serbs can be connected with Celts (my cousin-sister have so Celtic
physiognomy that I can not believe that she is a Serb) and you can find many
similar characteristics between Serbs and Irish's (I do not know much about
Scots).
--
Zizovic M. Aleksandar, SERBIA
Micheil
<br...@finhall.demon.co.uk>:
Now I know why I love and play the bouzouki and adore all aspects of
Greek culture, except for the Greeks themselves, of course.
Its genetic!
- měcheil
- innis dhomh sgéile mu 'n Thěr nan Ňg...
Micheil
Wrong. These men were the lunch of the Scotti. The dish became popular
in the north and is still eaten in Liverpool, although over the
centuries the name has mutated from "scouts" to "scouse".
(Do you have dark hair, tanned skin and smell strongly of garlic?
Report immediately to Da Chef's Merseyside operation.)
- mìcheil
- innis dhomh sgéile mu 'n Thìr nan Òg...
lenny
VonQuark <vonq...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3B4FFCBC...@mindspring.com...
> Some more connections between the Celts
> and Serbs in Antiquity:
>
> Beginning about 300 BC, bands of
> Celts began to penetrate southward. Their
> superiority rested in part on their mastery
> of iron technology, which they used to beat
> both swords and plowshares. The extent of
> Celtic expansion is indicated not only by their
> material remains but also by place-names.
> The name Singidunum, by which the Romans
> knew the settlement on the site of Belgrade, is
> at least partly of Celtic origin.
But the Serbs were a Slavic people who didn't arrive in the area until about
900 years later. The region had been largely depopulated by then.
> Source:
> http://www.decani.yunet.com/serhist.html
>
> The connection of Venice, the Celts, and the
> Venetii
>
> First, I hope you do not doubt that the Celts
> once sacked Rome.
>
> This site lists the Venetii as a Celtic Tribe with
> this quote:
>
> Caesar engaged and defeated the fleet of
> the Celtic tribe known as the Venetii who
> opposed him
>
> And many sources place these Venetii on the
> Adriatic coasts of Italy and Dalmatia originally.
The engagement that Caesar wrote about was with the CelticVeneti of Gallia
Lugdunensis in the area of Brittany. The Veneti at the top of the Adriatic
were not Celts (they seem to have been related to the Illyrians)--their
settlements predated the Celtic incursions into Cisalpine Gaul, they
successfully resisted those incursions, and they were frequently militarily
opposed to the Celts. Polybius suggests that one of the reasons for the
Celtic withdrawal from Rome in 390 B.C. was that their territories in
Cisalpine Gaul were being threatened by the Veneti. If the two groups were,
indeed, related, then the Veneti of the west were Celticized sometime beween
their split with the Veneti of Italy and their contact with Caesar.
> This history of Croatia avers and I quote:
> http://www.croatia.net/html/history.html
>
> The documented history of Croatia begins with
> Greek colonies established along the Dalmatian
> coast beginning with the fourth century BC. The
> interior was then dominated by tribal peoples,
> with the Celts most significant
>
> My claims are NOT baseless.
The Celtic Boii and Taurisci were devastated and largely displaced by the
Dacians in the first century B.C. The Scordisci fell prey to the Cimbri and
Teutones, and then to the Romans.
The Croats didn't move into the Balkan region until around the seventh
century A.D., by which time the area had been depopulated by centuries of
wave after wave of Germanic invaders and horse warriors from the steppes.
VonQuark
Zizovic Aleksandar wrote:
> I do not see what is so interested in Albania ?!? If Scots are like
> Albanians... :( then I am disappointed. Try to live amongst Albanians and
> you'll see what a people are they.
Remember that the present day Scots
(the Highlanders) were already a going
concern in Scotland by the time of the
Romans. The Scots never encountered Turks.
Serbs did. The Scots encountered Vikings.
So while initially they may have been closely
related, over time various influences have
seperated them. I was trying to show
why some similarities remain but obviously
they have drifted apart.
VonQuark
ZsaZsa wrote:
The Irish/Scotic legends claims that
Scot come from the eponymic mother
of the race, Scota, daughter of Pharoah
who married the Milesius, a Scythian
warrior. This produced an eponymic Son,
Heber Scot (Hibernia, Hebrides, Scot,
Scotti, etc) But most ignore that theory.
That is doubtful. Another source has
the word Scot being a corruption
of Scythia (Skythia, Sk-t) the supposed
original homeland of the Celts (And
the white race for that matter - the
Caucuses - Caucasian).
Another claim is that it came from the
Roman word for thief. But more likely
the Roman merely noted that the raiders
on the shores of Roman Britain called
themselves Scotti, and the Romans
adapted the term to mean thief, like the
word gypsie corrupted to gyp to mean cheat.
Since gypsie supposedly gypped people, we
get thief. Since the Scotti plundered Roman
Britain, they adopted Scotti as thief.
So the Roman origin to the word makes no
sense. More likely the Romans shifted
a Celtic term.
Another theory is that this is all a crock made
up by historio-fiction writers cum monks in the
12th century.
You decide.
VonQuark
Micheil wrote:
> Air Sat, 14 Jul 2001 15:08:43 GMT, sgrìobh "ZsaZsa" <re...@ng.org>:
>
> >"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
> >news:ip3vkt49tvmjc5jp8...@4ax.com...
> >> Scríobh Christopher Gwinn <WHL37.24467$16.23...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com>
> >
> >> >Wrong - Scotti comes from a native Celtic source
> >>
> >> Whats the Celtic source? I know the Romans used the words, but I've
> >> never got a good answer on what Irish or Brythonic word they might
> >> have got it from
> >
> >I remember reading in a Canadian newspaper a few years back that the Romans
> >had sent men to scout Ireland and Scotland, and they never returned,
> >supposedly the Scotti were the progeny of these scouts!!!! LOL
> >
>
> Wrong. These men were the lunch of the Scotti. The dish became popular
> in the north and is still eaten in Liverpool, although over the
> centuries the name has mutated from "scouts" to "scouse".
Y'see I heard differently here in America, where
our etymological dictionaries list the "scouts"
as having morphed to "scoot." As in this sentence,
"The Caledonii regularly forced the Roman
scouts to scoot." Apparently the Romans
fled so regularly that the word scout became
synomous with fleeing in terror. Now
the Scots mangle every pronunciation until
"He scouted on out of here when Angus showed up,"
became "He scooted aen out 'ae here when..."
Or so our dictionaries tell us.
More below.
> (Do you have dark hair, tanned skin and smell strongly of garlic?
> Report immediately to Da Chef's Merseyside operation.)
Seriously, aren't many Highlanders
and Atlantic Coast Irish black haired and
tanned. I think there is considerable
evidence that one of the original peoples
on the islands were Basque or Basque related.
Hence the presence of Basque words in
Gaelic. Now obviously the major component
is now Celtic in the areas, but since black
hair and brown eyes are dominant traits,
even though the Irish and Scots Highlanders
are primarily Celtic, a considerable number
carry Basque traits (even if personally
primarily Celtic). A case in point
is Sean Connery. Dark haired Scot at large.
And isn't there some evidences that
the Pictii may have been Basquish.
For ex: Columba (Colmkille) needed
a translator to speak to the King Brude
of the Pictii, who, had he been Celtic,
would have only had dialectal differences
at that time with Columba.
Plus Cavelli-Sfoza showed blood
similarities with the Scots, Irish,
Basques and Berber.
Apparently the Irish and Highland
Scots retain a residue of non-IE
blood in them. The Lowlanders
were more Viking and this would
be less true among them, though
by now mixing has occurred.
This site might explain my point:
THE PICTISH NATION:
http://members.tripod.com/~Halfmoon/
Probably the best website about this
people.
Peter Ashby
VonQuark <vonq...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Seriously, aren't many Highlanders
> and Atlantic Coast Irish black haired and
> tanned. I think there is considerable
> evidence that one of the original peoples
> on the islands were Basque or Basque related.
After Drake did unto the Spanish Armada off the Netherlands the
survivors attempted to return to Spain by sailing around Britain. They
were hit by a storm of the NW coast of Scotland between the Hebrides and
the mainland and many were wrecked in Scotland and Ireland. Last week
the papers here reported the finding of a wreck off the coast of Ross
(IIRC) and it is believed to be one of these vessels. No Basque
fishermen required and all well attested historically.
Peter
--
Peter Ashby
Wellcome Trust Biocentre
University of Dundee
Dundee, Scotland
Reverse the spam and remove to email me.
Micheil
<vonq...@mindspring.com>:
No. Black-haired and tanned people are pretty rare in the Highlands as
far as the native stock is concerned.
Black-haired Irish are more common, but it's probably Welsh blood that
gave them this characteristic, as they spent several centuries
invading each other in the past.
I think there is considerable
>evidence that one of the original peoples
>on the islands were Basque or Basque related.
>Hence the presence of Basque words in
>Gaelic.
There are no Basque words in Gaelic, period.
>Now obviously the major component
>is now Celtic in the areas, but since black
>hair and brown eyes are dominant traits,
>even though the Irish and Scots Highlanders
>are primarily Celtic, a considerable number
>carry Basque traits (even if personally
>primarily Celtic).
Very few Highlanders have black hair or brown eyes. Those who do
usually have foreign blood - a non-Highland grandmother for example.
A case in point
>is Sean Connery. Dark haired Scot at large.
Sean Connery is Scots-born but of Irish descent.
>
>And isn't there some evidences that
>the Pictii may have been Basquish.
None. Not even a suspicion of it.
>For ex: Columba (Colmkille) needed
>a translator to speak to the King Brude
>of the Pictii, who, had he been Celtic,
>would have only had dialectal differences
>at that time with Columba.
Whether or not King Brude spoke a Celtic language, if he didn't. that
doesn't automatically mean he had to be a Basque. There's a greater
likelihood that he might have been an ancient Greek.
>Plus Cavelli-Sfoza showed blood
>similarities with the Scots, Irish,
>Basques and Berber.
The Berbers were originally the Vandals, who first appeared in
northern Germany and travelled through Europe, finally crossing to
North Africa via Spain. I've been among Berbers and more than a few
can be mistaken for Germans - blond, dark red or brown-headed, blue
eyes, lightly tanned skin, etc. I have spoken to a Berber in German
because I was quite certain he was a German by his appearance. It was
a genuine surprise to find out he was not German.
Conversely, once I started wearing Berber clothes and got a good tan,
nobody, including other Berbers, guessed I wasn't a Berber until I
opened my mouth. I crossed the Sahara desert from north to south with
Berbers and every tribe we met, Touaregs and all, assumed I was a
Berber, even though they were covering the children's faces to prevent
me from putting the evil eye on them with my blue-grey eyes. (And by
the way, blue-grey is a common Hebridean eye colour. - from our Norse
ancestry.)
>Apparently the Irish and Highland
>Scots retain a residue of non-IE
>blood in them.
Not surprising, considering our language is the furthest away of all
IE languages from the IE basic pattern, suggesting we acquired an IE
Celtic language but imposed our previous language patterns on it - a
common phenomenon when people switch languages, which explains, for
example, why there are so many versions of English, with Irish and
African English being really obvious examples of previous
other-language patterns being superimposed.
For example, English uses his, her, etc. African languages don't.
That's why you heard West Indians say, "She took she money with she."
That's precisely how you'd say it in any of the languages of West
Africa.
In Highland English people use the gerund where English people don't.
For example:
I was wondering if you would be wanting to bring the car with you.
In English:
I wondered if you wanted to bring the car.
The Highland version is how you'd say it in Gaelic.
Superimposed patterns.
>The Lowlanders
>were more Viking and this would
>be less true among them, though
>by now mixing has occurred.
The Lowlanders were a German-Danish people.
>
>This site might explain my point:
>THE PICTISH NATION:
>http://members.tripod.com/~Halfmoon/
>Probably the best website about this
>people.
I think you're wandering happily in the realms of fantasy. I have
nothing against that, but to link the Basques with the Picts, you will
need to show a far clearer path than you have done so far.
Bearing in mind that the Basques seem to have arrived in Europe
between 20,000 and 40,000 years earlier than the Celts, there is no
reason why the Picts should not have arrived around the same time.
However, presuming that neither group was very large in numbers, if
the Picts were Basques, you would expect them to drift away from the
main body at a slow rate, expanding outwards as numbers increased, but
always leaving cultural traces - people, artifacts, language - behind.
However, the Picts put some 1,500 miles between themselves and the
nearest group of Basques, which seems very unlikely, unless they were
on some sort of mission.
Why they would choose northern Scotland instead of occupying and
leaving traces of themselves in the rich heartland of France around
the Basque country is beyond me. After all, their primary task was
probably to support themselves, not to set long distance records for
emigration.
The Basques certainly didn't make any effort to expand their region.
As far as we know - apart from DNA evidence showing they are/may be
related to us, possibly by some intermarriage when the Celts passed
through northern Spain or settled as Celto-Iberians - they have always
lived where they do; a unique ethnic enclave.
For some as yet unexplained reason it was a strategy which prevented
them from being assimilated, unlike the Picts - from whom we are
undoubtedly descended - and other "aboriginal" groups in ancient
Europe. In short, I doubt that the Picts ever knew the Basques
existed.
Luke Goaman-Dodson
> That is doubtful. Another source has
> the word Scot being a corruption
> of Scythia (Skythia, Sk-t) the supposed
> original homeland of the Celts (And
> the white race for that matter - the
> Caucuses - Caucasian).
I have no idea why the term Caucasian is used to connote white people,
but it certainly has nothing to do with the area - the pale-ish skin
of European people is a reaction to the lack of heat in northern
climates.
Micheil
<vonq...@mindspring.com>:
>
>
>ZsaZsa wrote:
>
>> "Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
>> news:ip3vkt49tvmjc5jp8...@4ax.com...
>> > Scríobh Christopher Gwinn <WHL37.24467$16.23...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com>
>>
>> > >Wrong - Scotti comes from a native Celtic source
>> >
>> > Whats the Celtic source? I know the Romans used the words, but I've
>> > never got a good answer on what Irish or Brythonic word they might
>> > have got it from
>>
>> I remember reading in a Canadian newspaper a few years back that the Romans
>> had sent men to scout Ireland and Scotland, and they never returned,
>> supposedly the Scotti were the progeny of these scouts!!!! LOL
>
>The Irish/Scotic legends claims that
>Scot come from the eponymic mother
>of the race, Scota, daughter of Pharoah
>who married the Milesius, a Scythian
>warrior. This produced an eponymic Son,
>Heber Scot (Hibernia, Hebrides, Scot,
>Scotti, etc) But most ignore that theory.
I understand that Hebrides was created by a clerical error, and that
the original name was, if I recollect correctly - Hebudes, so named by
by Ptolemy. Some people claim it's a corruption of Havbredey from the
Norse words allegedly meaning "Islands on the edge of the sea", which
sound pretty silly, especially for the Vikings, whose naming practices
were generally workmanlike. (Islands on the edge of the sea takes in
pretty much every island in the world, except for Polynesia, the
Falklands, Tristan da Cunha, Pitcairn, etc.)
>That is doubtful. Another source has
>the word Scot being a corruption
>of Scythia (Skythia, Sk-t) the supposed
>original homeland of the Celts (And
>the white race for that matter - the
>Caucuses - Caucasian).
>
>Another claim is that it came from the
>Roman word for thief. But more likely
>the Roman merely noted that the raiders
>on the shores of Roman Britain called
>themselves Scotti, and the Romans
>adapted the term to mean thief, like the
>word gypsie corrupted to gyp to mean cheat.
>Since gypsie supposedly gypped people, we
>get thief. Since the Scotti plundered Roman
>Britain, they adopted Scotti as thief.
>So the Roman origin to the word makes no
>sense. More likely the Romans shifted
>a Celtic term.
>
>Another theory is that this is all a crock made
>up by historio-fiction writers cum monks in the
>12th century.
>
>You decide.
>
Zizovic Aleksandar
> > Report immediately to Da Chef's Merseyside operation.)
> Seriously, aren't many Highlanders
> and Atlantic Coast Irish black haired and
> tanned. I think there is considerable
> evidence that one of the original peoples
> on the islands were Basque or Basque related.
> Hence the presence of Basque words in
> Gaelic. Now obviously the major component
> is now Celtic in the areas, but since black
> hair and brown eyes are dominant traits,
> even though the Irish and Scots Highlanders
> are primarily Celtic, a considerable number
> carry Basque traits (even if personally
> primarily Celtic).
"ratnici" =eng. "warriors"), "Serbs-warriors" who was of
Aryan/Persian/Iranic origin and who had came to Balkan. As I remember they
helped the Greeks to fight the Slavs and conquered some Slavic teritories (I
presume it is today Monetenegro because many things are allude on it).
Basques live on Iberian island and are of characteristicks similar as
those of the Iberians, Scots (as you said), Serbs (some parts), Iranians,
etc. Word "Iberi" (Serbian word for "Iberians") is VERY similar with Serbian
word "ribari" (=eng. "fishermen"). So, "Iberia" would be "Ribaria" (=ser.
"Ribarija") which means "The land of fishing", and as I know, fishing is one
of the main characteristics of Iberia and Basques.
All that facts are alluding me that Scots, Serbs, Basques, Iranians,
etc. (who knows who else) are of the same Aryan origin, the one from the
Persia, Sumeria, Assyria or Babylonia. If you compare both physical
characteristics and mentality of that people, I think that you will find
many things in common. Maybe Aryan migrations (not of the blond-blueyed
Aryans but of the Aryans of black hair and brown eyes) are the essence of
all of that similarities.
I think that there was, except Celts, blond Aryans and dark-hair Aryans
who was of a different origin and who was YUST in union but that there
wasn't ANY blood relations between them. ONLY they are responsible for our
similarities but NOT the blond ones, too.
> Apparently the Irish and Highland
> Scots retain a residue of non-IE
> blood in them. The Lowlanders
> were more Viking and this would
> be less true among them, though
> by now mixing has occurred.
> That is doubtful. Another source has
> the word Scot being a corruption
> of Scythia (Skythia, Sk-t) the supposed
> original homeland of the Celts (And
> the white race for that matter - the
> Caucuses - Caucasian).
from ser. "skitati" (=eng. "to vagabondise", "to rove"). Do not be suprised
for many explained old foreign names by the Serbian language, because
Serbian language is most similar living language to Sanskrit. Our language
haven't changed for many centuries so we speak the same language we spoke
(and probably not just we) long time ago. I will try to explain every of the
essential words you say from the viewpoint of Serbian language trying to
help you to understand the full meaning of that word comparing it with as
many languages as you can.
Zizovic Aleksandar
> > knew the settlement on the site of Belgrade, is
> > at least partly of Celtic origin.
> But the Serbs were a Slavic people who didn't arrive in the area until
about
> 900 years later.
remains on that teritory in smaller or greater number and still have more or
less influence on culture of that teritory. One people can never dissapear
but can be minority in some country or can be mixed with conquerors. "Slavs"
that arrived 900 years later may have almost nothnig with the Slavs from
Yugoslavia today. If they were in small number than they could been
asimilated by the autohtonic people and culture. Do not forget such a
things. No people/nation can not be "replaced" with another people/nation
nor can be simply "slaughtered" one-by-one. There is always at least some of
the living remains of autohtonic population.
When I said "Scottish names of Serbian origin" I didn't wanted to say
that Scots are one of the Serbian tribes but that the Serbs and Scots may be
the tribes of the same people, or that there was influence over them by the
same people or whatever.
> The region had been largely depopulated by then.
that time on that teritory.
Zizovic Aleksandar
> >and Atlantic Coast Irish black haired and
> >tanned.
> No. Black-haired and tanned people are pretty rare in the Highlands as
> far as the native stock is concerned.
> Black-haired Irish are more common, but it's probably Welsh blood that
> gave them this characteristic, as they spent several centuries
> invading each other in the past.
> >is now Celtic in the areas, but since black
> >hair and brown eyes are dominant traits,
> >even though the Irish and Scots Highlanders
> >are primarily Celtic, a considerable number
> >carry Basque traits (even if personally
> >primarily Celtic).
> Very few Highlanders have black hair or brown eyes. Those who do
> usually have foreign blood - a non-Highland grandmother for example.
(either one or both of you) do not consider all the people from that
countries. Could you name parts of that contries that you considered when
you talked about anthropology and for which you are sure that you are wright
???
> >Hence the presence of Basque words in
> >Gaelic.
> There are no Basque words in Gaelic, period.
ibviously Basquish words from Gaelic language.
Have anyone noticed that no one have tried to explain those names from
the viewpoint of Scottish or any other language? Could anyone try to solve
that mystery for me (and others, too) ???
Christopher Gwinn
> I have no idea why the term Caucasian is used to connote white people,
> but it certainly has nothing to do with the area - the pale-ish skin
> of European people is a reaction to the lack of heat in northern
> climates.
As I understand it, the scientist that coined the term was fond of the
people from the Caucasus - he thought that they were the perfect specimen of
Europoid people (ie: "whites"), thus he dubbed Europoids "Caucasian".
- Chris Gwinn
Logger_o
"Peter Ashby" wrote:
snip
>
> After Drake did unto the Spanish Armada off the Netherlands the
> survivors attempted to return to Spain by sailing around Britain. They
> were hit by a storm of the NW coast of Scotland between the Hebrides and
> the mainland and many were wrecked in Scotland and Ireland. Last week
> the papers here reported the finding of a wreck off the coast of Ross
> (IIRC) and it is believed to be one of these vessels. No Basque
> fishermen required and all well attested historically.
>
I believe that you will find little evidence that this small number of men
are responsible for the Many Dark Haired Dark Skinned people of Scotland and
Ireland. I think Olaf the Black (Likely of tan Skin, certainly with dark
hair) would certainly indicate that there were people of dark hair long
before the Spanish influence.
Iain...
lenny
Zizovic Aleksandar <ziz...@bitsyu.net> wrote in message
news:99520005...@proxy0.bitsyu.net...
> > > The name Singidunum, by which the Romans
> > > knew the settlement on the site of Belgrade, is
> > > at least partly of Celtic origin.
> > But the Serbs were a Slavic people who didn't arrive in the area until
> about
> > 900 years later.
> Wherever some people conquer another people, autohtonic people still
> remains on that teritory in smaller or greater number and still have more
or
> less influence on culture of that teritory. One people can never dissapear
> but can be minority in some country or can be mixed with conquerors.
"Slavs"
> that arrived 900 years later may have almost nothnig with the Slavs from
> Yugoslavia today. If they were in small number than they could been
> asimilated by the autohtonic people and culture. Do not forget such a
> things. No people/nation can not be "replaced" with another people/nation
> nor can be simply "slaughtered" one-by-one. There is always at least some
of
> the living remains of autohtonic population.
1) In fact we know that people/nations were replaced--there were many mass
migrations of people fleeing invaders and the region was largely depopulated
when the Slavs settled there.
2)Why would it matter if there were Celts who remained and were assimilated?
'Celt' and 'Slav' are language/culture groups, not racial groups. If the
people adopted Slavic language and customs then they are now Slavs. If the
Slavs had adopted Celtic language and customs then they would now be Celts.
> When I said "Scottish names of Serbian origin" I didn't wanted to say
> that Scots are one of the Serbian tribes but that the Serbs and Scots may
be
> the tribes of the same people,
What does that mean? They belong to different language/culture groups, so
they were not 'the same people' unless you mean that they were both members
of the IndoEuropean family of languages and cultures.
or that there was influence over them by the
> same people or whatever.
> > The region had been largely depopulated by then.
> You are wrong. There was many numerious Illyrian and Thracian tribes
at
> that time on that teritory.
Neither the Illyrians not the Thracians were Celts.
Anne Burgess
> the original name was, if I recollect correctly - Hebudes, so named by
> by Ptolemy. Some people claim it's a corruption of Havbredey from the
> Norse words allegedly meaning "Islands on the edge of the sea", which
> sound pretty silly, especially for the Vikings, whose naming practices
> were generally workmanlike. (Islands on the edge of the sea takes in
> pretty much every island in the world, except for Polynesia, the
> Falklands, Tristan da Cunha, Pitcairn, etc.)
Very true. But they could well have been the last islands before the open
ocean known to the Vikings before they travelled to
Vinland/Greenland/Iceland.
Anne
nick-durie
>
> Y'see I heard differently here in America, where
> our etymological dictionaries list the "scouts"
> as having morphed to "scoot." As in this sentence,
> "The Caledonii regularly forced the Roman
> scouts to scoot." Apparently the Romans
> fled so regularly that the word scout became
> synomous with fleeing in terror. Now
> the Scots mangle every pronunciation until
> "He scouted on out of here when Angus showed up,"
> became "He scooted aen out 'ae here when..."
> Or so our dictionaries tell us.
Do we indeed - strange to be insulted by a man who can't spell "ane" or
"o" - neither of which are regarded as difficult to spell, both having had
their spellings fixed for several hundred years.
ZsaZsa
"Micheil" <mic...@ireland.com> wrote in message
news:uds2ltc0mg4rac102...@4ax.com...
> ><snip>
> >> (Do you have dark hair, tanned skin and smell strongly of garlic?
> >> Report immediately to Da Chef's Merseyside operation.)
> >
> >Seriously, aren't many Highlanders
> >and Atlantic Coast Irish black haired and
> >tanned.
>
> No. Black-haired and tanned people are pretty rare in the Highlands as
> far as the native stock is concerned.
>
> Black-haired Irish are more common, but it's probably Welsh blood that
> gave them this characteristic, as they spent several centuries
> invading each other in the past.
>
> <snip>
> >Now obviously the major component
> >is now Celtic in the areas, but since black
> >hair and brown eyes are dominant traits,
> >even though the Irish and Scots Highlanders
> >are primarily Celtic, a considerable number
> >carry Basque traits (even if personally
> >primarily Celtic).
>
> Very few Highlanders have black hair or brown eyes. Those who do
> usually have foreign blood - a non-Highland grandmother for example.
My father & his mother, and her people have black hair & blue eyes. Don't
*you* have black hair?
Micheil
Certainly not! I was a blond in my day, with reddish highlights,
constantly fighting off people who wanted me to join the SS.
Today I'm what Dian Fossey would have called a "silverback". A
delightful, delicious, delovely Islander!
(Black hair, eh?)
<mm...>
Sang a lot of Irish songs in your house, did they?
Actually, my best childhood friend, also a Maclean, had black hair and
blue eyes. Poor bugger. We thought he was exotic.
Micheil
<Anne.B...@NOSPAMbtinternet.com>:
I thought of saying that, but I decided to leave you an opening for
dissent...
"They weren't Scots?"
"No."
"How do you know?"
"They were in complete agreement."
- měcheil
- innis dhomh sgéile mu 'n Thěr nan Ňg...
VonQuark
Peter Ashby wrote:
> In article <3B514EC7...@mindspring.com>,
> VonQuark <vonq...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > Seriously, aren't many Highlanders
> > and Atlantic Coast Irish black haired and
> > tanned. I think there is considerable
> > evidence that one of the original peoples
> > on the islands were Basque or Basque related.
>
> After Drake did unto the Spanish Armada off the Netherlands the
> survivors attempted to return to Spain by sailing around Britain. They
> were hit by a storm of the NW coast of Scotland between the Hebrides and
> the mainland and many were wrecked in Scotland and Ireland. Last week
> the papers here reported the finding of a wreck off the coast of Ross
> (IIRC) and it is believed to be one of these vessels. No Basque
> fishermen required and all well attested historically.
>
> Peter
Not all the Spanish in the Armada could have
been responsible for the amount of dark
hair in the Irish and Highlanders. More
than one source I have read considers
a Basque-Pictii connection.
VonQuark
Micheil wrote:
> Air Sun, 15 Jul 2001 04:05:28 -0400, sgrìobh VonQuark
> <vonq...@mindspring.com>:
> >
> >Micheil wrote:
> >
> >> Air Sat, 14 Jul 2001 15:08:43 GMT, sgrìobh "ZsaZsa" <re...@ng.org>:
> >>
> >> >"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
> >> >news:ip3vkt49tvmjc5jp8...@4ax.com...
<...>
>
> There are no Basque words in Gaelic, period.
If I must needs, I can go to a library and
source the quotes for you. I have seen
numbers of linguistic studies which note
that Gaelic Celtic (Scots and Irish) have
lots of Basque words in them.
A lot of histories I have read make the
same speculation.
The Basques (or a related people)
arrived in the British Isles during
paleolithic times. The IE Celts
overran them later but then married
into them. Hence a lot of Basque
was absorbed into Insular Gaelic.
<...>
> A case in point
> >is Sean Connery. Dark haired Scot at large.
>
> Sean Connery is Scots-born but of Irish descent.
The Irish and Highlander are ethnically
similar. Whether Highlander or Irish in origin,
the best explanation for Connery is a Basque
component in his ancestry.
This webpage (of a usenet discussion)
makes a similar claim that the original
inhabitants of the British Isles (both of them)
were a short dark race, probably Basque.
The successive waves of Celtic, Anglo Saxon,
and Viking invasions diluted out the
Basque elements as it were; but in Ireland
and the Highlands, where the Viking and
Saxon invasions; were resisted more
fiercely; the populations retained more
of the Basque genetic element.
All of the British Isles were overrun
by Celts, and Vikings but the Anglo Saxon
never became the base population in Ireland,
Wales, or the Highlands, as it did in England.
or the Lowlands.
Hence the Celtic areas had less of an IE
dilution than England. Their languages
and phenotypes exhibit this.
This webpage (of a usenet post) makes
a strong case with cited sources.
The post notes that some sources have
questionable spins but that in toto
there is evidence of a basque connection
to the British Isles.
VonQuark
Micheil wrote:
> Air Sun, 15 Jul 2001 04:05:28 -0400, sgrìobh VonQuark
> <vonq...@mindspring.com>:
>
> >
> >
> >Micheil wrote:
<...>
>
> >There are no Basque words in Gaelic, period.
I copies this from deja.com USENET POST
5 years ago which was archived in deja.com.
It lists cited sources of Basque connections
to Gaelic.
---(start of quoted deja post)---
The source is the 1995 ENCYCLOPEDIA AMERICANA
page 146 of the volume which has the article
CELTIC LANGUAGES where it notes
in a a section of linguistic analysis of the
insular [British Isles] Celtic languages where a
lot of parallels are drawn with Basque
and/or Berber.
Here are the quotes:.
"(1) Where the autonomy of the single word
seems especially characteristic of Indo-European,
it is rather the group of closely connected words
that form the principal unit in insular Celtic...."
further down in the paragraph it notes
".....characteristic of some non-Indo-European
languages such as Basque and most languages
of the Caucus."
Another citiation in the article
"(2) The fixed location of the verb at the
head of the sentence, which is not obligatory
in any other Indo-European language, is
found in Berber, Egyptian and Semetic."
Another note
"(3) ....In Insular Celtic the agent (logical
subject) of the action the verb expresses
often appears in an impersonal, passive
construction also found in Egyptian,
Berber, Basque, and many Causcasian
and Arctic languages....."
Note: the encyclopedia article lists this example
is di Ult(a)ib dom
which it says means lit "It is of the Ulsterman to me."
which means I am an Ulsterman
Another quote:
"(4) The insular Celtic system of tenses and aspects,
particularly the use of the progressive (periphrasitic)
tenses to denote the aspect (also used in English),
is not Indo-European but has parallels in Basque,
Egyptian and Berber...."
MY NOTE: We might ask if this device crept into
English from the pre-Anglo-Saxon inhabitants even
as it may have crept into the insular Celtic tongues
from pre-Celtic inhabitants.
The device may be a linguistic relic which
lives on through successive waves of invasions.
Another quote
"(5) There is no present participle, its
fuction being discharged by the verbal noun,
as in Egyptian and Berber."
Another quote:
"(6) The so called inflected perpositions
(Old Irish dom, to me, duit, to you, and dò, to him)
have exact parallel in Berber, Egyptian and
Semetic. Prehistory and anthropology show the
existence of more that one pre-Celtic element in
the British Isles: remainders of the Paleolithic
inhabitants of Western Europe, many traces of
widespread Arctic Mesolithic culture, Mediterranean
invaders from Northwest Africa (the bearers of
Megalithic culture)......"
My note: I could not get the accent right in dò.
I tilts to the right actually. ASCII is limited.
Notice where these Megalithic pre-Celts are coming
from...NORTHWEST AFRICA!
Well, 1995 is not some turn of the century
enycylopedia
NOTICE, no one aspect is definitive but notice
how BASQUE, BERBER and NORTH AFRICA
are being noted with a frightening regularity.
The Article in the Encyclopedia was penned
by one Julius Pokorny if that is any help.
---(end of quoted deja post)---
This is quoted.
The Basque-British Isles connection
is not without considerable merit.
Barnaby
> VQ> Alb- is an Indo-European word root
> VQ> for white. for example: Alb-ino.
> VQ> ALaBaster is very white powder.
> On Serbian we say "belo" for "white" or "bela" if it is about female
> (example: ser. "bela devojka" =eng. "white girl"). "Bella" is Italian word
> which means "pretty"; so the "white girl" will be "pretty girl" (sounds
> reasonable for me). I see there some connection, probably you will see it
> too.
> VQ> Alb- white in IE word roots
> VQ> Albania
> VQ> Alps - white snow covered Mountains
> VQ> Alba - Gaelic name for Scotland (the Scot come from Scyt in Scythia)
> Albanians was one of the ancient tribes in Middle east.
But they speak an Indo-European language, not a Semitic one.
> These Albanians do not have any connection with this Albanians.
I don't understand.
> These Albanians was made out of nowhere, nation born from union of some
Serbian and some
> Turkish/half-Turkish tribes which haven't even existed before some time.
> Their greatest hero is Skenderbeg, who was Serbian nobleman, vassal lived
on
> Royal Ottoman Castle and was favorite man of emperor Bajazit.
Are you suggesting that Albanians are a mix of Serbs and Turks? This is
clearly not the case, if you look at the history and linguistics of the
Albanian language.
> VQ> Albanian is similar to Celtic tongues. I believe.
> You are wrong. I don't know many about Albanian language but I know that
> they sound like gypsies, Turks, etc.
The Gypsy language, Romany, is an Indo-European language closely related to
Hindi. The Turkish language is unrelated, and is a member or the Altaic
family of languages.
Romany is only distantly related to Albanian. Turkish is not related to it
at all.
> VQ> So this may explain the similarities. Of course, it could still be
> VQ> explained by simple IE heritage common to all of Europe but I think an
> VQ> ancient Celtic/Albanian connection is clear.
> I do not see what is so interested in Albania ?!? If Scots are like
> Albanians... :( then I am disappointed. Try to live amongst Albanians and
> you'll see what a people are they.
I doubt that Scots have much in common with Albanians - the languages are
only distantly related, and there have been few cultural links. But I'm sure
that Albanians, like all people (including Serbs and Scots) have their fair
share of nice people and their fair share of wankers.
Odysseus
> >
>
> Now I know why I love and play the bouzouki and adore all aspects of
> Greek culture, except for the Greeks themselves, of course.
>
> Its genetic!
>
Greece. (Russia, too, I think.)
--Odysseus
Barnaby
"MacHamish" <rus...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:veo5lt815cdduh412...@4ax.com...
The
> Basques are not mentioned anywhere in the book. Of course, while Cummins
> does spend some time on the origins of the Picts, he does not offer any
> opinions on the origins of the paleolithic people in Britain before the
> arrival of the Celts.
The only evidence that I can really see that links the Picts to the Basques,
is that both were thought to be pre-Indo-European languages, so people
thought they were probably related. However, modern thinking seems to be
that Pictish was a Q-Celtic language, so that pretty much puts paid to that.
As for Scottish names being Serbian, it seems bloody unlikely, to say the
least! A few names might well be Slavic, since numerous Ukranians and other
Slsvs settled here in Modern times...
CandL
Logger_o <Logg...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:D%j47.1524$QX5....@eagle.america.net...
"Shipwrecking" was a profession amongst the peoples of the
British coastline and 'any' stranger was 'fair game'. Flotsam, jetsam and
shipwrecks (real & contrived) were an important part of their income. That
included humans, who were seen only as a source of gold, jewels and
clothing... or as something to be sold or ransomed.
Survivors from the Armada were minimal. Prisoners were not kept unless
there was a very good chance that they were worth a ransom or would be
bought buy the English.
Most of them were killed.
They were hard days.
--
Lena G
David of the Clan Gunn
>I've just checked the index of "The Age of the Picts" by W. A. Cummins. The
>Basques are not mentioned anywhere in the book. Of course, while Cummins
>does spend some time on the origins of the Picts, he does not offer any
>opinions on the origins of the paleolithic people in Britain before the
>arrival of the Celts.
>
I think this is very fair as from what I have read there is very little
evidence as of yet to make any kind of real scientific guess.
-David of the Clan Gunn
(remove 'nospram' from my e-mail address to contact)
Alan Hardie
> delightful, delicious, delovely Islander!
>
Jeez, poor bugger! You have a grey hairy back?
phred
ZsaZsa wrote in message ...
Phred
Lachie Macquarie
<re...@ng.org> writes
Ditto my faither had black hair and blue eyes, maybe a Mull thing?
--
Lachie Macquarie, Bod an Deamhan-- smaoineachadh miannach.
Christopher Gwinn
> The only evidence that I can really see that links the Picts to the
Basques,
> is that both were thought to be pre-Indo-European languages, so people
> thought they were probably related. However, modern thinking seems to be
> that Pictish was a Q-Celtic language, so that pretty much puts paid to
that.
Correction - Pictish was P-Celtic - it was a dialect of Brittonic, the
ancestor of Welsh, Breton and Cornish.
- Chris Gwinn
Christopher Gwinn
> > There are no Basque words in Gaelic, period.
>
> If I must needs, I can go to a library and
> source the quotes for you. I have seen
> numbers of linguistic studies which note
> that Gaelic Celtic (Scots and Irish) have
> lots of Basque words in them.
I suggest you go to the library and dig deep - nowhere have I ever seen
"lots of Basque words" in Gaelic. Cite away, my friend.
- Chris Gwinn
Christopher Gwinn
quite late and have nothing to do with any alleged pre-Indo European
substratum in Britain and Ireland (alleged because non one has ever been
able to prove that there were any other native languages [excluding English,
of course] spoken in Britain and Ireland during the historical period other
than Q- and P-Celtic). They are purely coincidental developments.
- Chris Gwinn
> (Old Irish dom, to me, duit, to you, and dņ, to him)
> have exact parallel in Berber, Egyptian and
> Semetic. Prehistory and anthropology show the
> existence of more that one pre-Celtic element in
> the British Isles: remainders of the Paleolithic
> inhabitants of Western Europe, many traces of
> widespread Arctic Mesolithic culture, Mediterranean
> invaders from Northwest Africa (the bearers of
> Megalithic culture)......"
>
> My note: I could not get the accent right in dņ.
ZsaZsa
news:9qci1eAu...@lachiemacq.demon.co.uk...
> ZsaZsa <re...@ng.org> writes
My father didn't get the black hair from his McLean side though. He is also
very fair skinned. The only people in my family to resemble my Ggranda
McLean are named Jardine & McGoldrick. My ma used to say that black hair &
blue eyes together, are a sign of Scottish beauty (I have neither, nor did
she).
Micheil
<axha...@clara.co.uk>:
With arse to match. Policemen with long poles are always trying to
dislodge me from trees because I frighten the tourists.
Elder Perm Poom
Gwinn" <son...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Correction - Pictish was P-Celtic - it was a dialect of Brittonic, the
> ancestor of Welsh, Breton and Cornish.
An encyclopedia is an ancestor of a rarebit, andre and a game hen?
Stop yer gabbin, and GIT ONNA PHONES!
E. Raymond Capt ROCKS MY WORLD!
Blessings
Elder Perm Poom
The First Internet McChurch Tabernacle
http://www.mcchurch.com
Barnaby
"Christopher Gwinn" <son...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BDJ47.31275$16.32...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
Indeed. My mistake. Still, the point still stands.
Barnaby
> All those alleged non-Indo European developments in Celtic languages are
all
> quite late and have nothing to do with any alleged pre-Indo European
> substratum in Britain and Ireland (alleged because non one has ever been
> able to prove that there were any other native languages [excluding
English,
> of course] spoken in Britain and Ireland during the historical period
other
> than Q- and P-Celtic). They are purely coincidental developments.
Well, it's not relevant to the point you're making, but there were/are a few
other languages spoken in Britain and Ireland in the historical period -
Scots, Norn, Romany, to name but three.
VonQuark
Barnaby wrote:
> "Christopher Gwinn" <son...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:rIJ47.31277$16.32...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
> > All those alleged non-Indo European developments in Celtic languages are
> all
> > quite late and have nothing to do with any alleged pre-Indo European
> > substratum in Britain and Ireland (alleged because non one has ever been
> > able to prove that there were any other native languages [excluding
> English,
> > of course] spoken in Britain and Ireland during the historical period
> other
> > than Q- and P-Celtic). They are purely coincidental developments.
>
> Well, it's not relevant to the point you're making, but there were/are a few
> other languages spoken in Britain and Ireland in the historical period -
> Scots, Norn, Romany, to name but three.
>
Wasn't there a bizarre local Celtic sublanguage
called CANT, until recently spoken by
tinkers, but may have originated with
the original Celtic tribes in Kent.
Somebody told me it sounded like
mangled Gaelic or Welsh, Celtic
but mangled. It survived among the
tinkers of Britain and Ireland, some
of whom are the descendent of the Celts
who were dispersed with Hengist
and Horsa and company kicked the
Celts out of Cant (Kent).
Christopher Gwinn
> > All those alleged non-Indo European developments in Celtic languages are
all
> > quite late and have nothing to do with any alleged pre-Indo European
> > substratum in Britain and Ireland (alleged because non one has ever been
> > able to prove that there were any other native languages [excluding
English,
> > of course] spoken in Britain and Ireland during the historical period
other
> > than Q- and P-Celtic). They are purely coincidental developments.
>
> Well, it's not relevant to the point you're making, but there were/are a
few
> other languages spoken in Britain and Ireland in the historical period -
> Scots, Norn, Romany, to name but three.
Read what I said more closely. Scots is a variety of English - which I
already excluded - and Norn and Romany are non-native, immigrant languages -
thus they are also excluded.
- Chris Gwinn
nick-durie
Bullshit - all Germanic languages are a form of Scots.
Sounds risible dunnit?
>
> - Chris Gwinn
>
>
Micheil
<vonq...@mindspring.com>:
>
>
>Barnaby wrote:
>
>> "Christopher Gwinn" <son...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:rIJ47.31277$16.32...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
>> > All those alleged non-Indo European developments in Celtic languages are
>> all
>> > quite late and have nothing to do with any alleged pre-Indo European
>> > substratum in Britain and Ireland (alleged because non one has ever been
>> > able to prove that there were any other native languages [excluding
>> English,
>> > of course] spoken in Britain and Ireland during the historical period
>> other
>> > than Q- and P-Celtic). They are purely coincidental developments.
>>
>> Well, it's not relevant to the point you're making, but there were/are a few
>> other languages spoken in Britain and Ireland in the historical period -
>> Scots, Norn, Romany, to name but three.
>>
>
>Wasn't there a bizarre local Celtic sublanguage
>called CANT, until recently spoken by
>tinkers, but may have originated with
>the original Celtic tribes in Kent.
Cant is still spoken - there's a subset in Ireland called Shelta.
They're both semi-invented languages, designed to prevent non-tinkers
from understanding what's being said. There are several in London,
like Cockney, Backslang, etc. Scottish cant has both Romani and Gaelic
words.
Some tinkers speak a mix of Gaelic and Romani. Others peak a mix of
Scots and Romani. The Highland version is so pervasuive that some of
the Romani words have passed into non-tinker use, such as gadgie for
friend; a mistranslation of gaujo; a non-Romani. In Easter Ross,
people greet each other by winking and saying, "Aye, aye, gadgie!" and
"Aye, aye, coffi gadgie!"
Tinkers are mostly the descendants of "broken men", clan outcasts.
They intermarried a little with the Roma, but the Roma regard them as
inferior. The best known tinker and cant speaker in Scotland is
Stanley Robertson, and if you check the Net, you'll find pages about
him. The three commonest tinker names are Stewart, MacFie and
Williamson.
http://www2.arts.gla.ac.uk/SESLL/STELLA/STARN/crit/langtrav.htm
http://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/stewart.htm
http://www.electricscotland.com/music/tales/shetland.htm
>Somebody told me it sounded like
>mangled Gaelic or Welsh, Celtic
>but mangled. It survived among the
>tinkers of Britain and Ireland, some
>of whom are the descendent of the Celts
>who were dispersed with Hengist
>and Horsa and company kicked the
>Celts out of Cant (Kent).
Alan Smaill
So, what constitutes a native language, in your view?
Apparently you take English to be native;
why are Norn and Romany not native?
> - Chris Gwinn
>
>
--
Alan Smaill email: A.Sm...@ed.ac.uk
Division of Informatics tel: 44-131-650-2710
Edinburgh University
Micheil
>Scríobh Christopher Gwinn <hH257.34014$16.34...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com>
>:
>
>>Scots is a variety of English
>
>Linguists would differ.
Seconded.
I would concede that both English and Scots are variations of
Anglo-Saxon and its early Northern English descendant.
Barnaby
Was there not also a variety of English that was pretty much native to
Ireland? I remember hearing about a community on the East coast of Ireland
where some English soldiers had settled in the 12th Century, and their
language had developed in isolation until the 19th Century, when it died
out. Anyone know any more?
Barnaby
"Alan Smaill" <sma...@dai.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:fweelrf...@puffin.dai.ed.ac.uk...
He's probably got a point with regard to Romany, but Norn was certainly a
native language.
However, in the sense that they weren't around to be possible substrates for
P or Q Celtic languages, then he's right.
Barnaby
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
news:jsoalt4ureqm77khp...@4ax.com...
> Scríobh Michel [I think, sorry if I have the wrong attribution]
>
> >> >Wasn't there a bizarre local Celtic sublanguage
> >> >called CANT, until recently spoken by
> >> >tinkers, but may have originated with
> >> >the original Celtic tribes in Kent.
> >>
> >> Cant is still spoken - there's a subset in Ireland called Shelta.
>
> Irish) but derives from English
Not according to Ethnologue - they describe it as descending from the same
root as modern Irish.
Barnaby
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
> Scríobh Barnaby <9j3p0n$14a$1...@phys-ma.sol.co.uk> :
> http://www.siu.edu/departments/cola/ling/reports/shelta/class.htm
Fair enough - I stand corrected.
Luke Goaman-Dodson
>
> > I have no idea why the term Caucasian is used to connote white
people,
> > but it certainly has nothing to do with the area - the pale-ish
skin
> > of European people is a reaction to the lack of heat in northern
> > climates.
>
> As I understand it, the scientist that coined the term was fond of
the
> people from the Caucasus - he thought that they were the perfect
specimen of
> Europoid people (ie: "whites"), thus he dubbed Europoids
"Caucasian".
I wonder if it has anything to do with Victorian theory that humans
originated in Asia?
Sharon L. Krossa
> Scríobh Christopher Gwinn <hH257.34014$16.34...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com>
> :
>
> >Scots is a variety of English
>
> Linguists would differ.
Well, more precisely, _some_ linguists would differ; others would agree.
But almost all of them would point out that the there is no precise
division between something being a dialect and being a a language --
cultural ideas and politics come into the distinction just as much as
linguistic difference -- and that Scots is in that gray area where one
can quite legitimately consider it a dialect of English or quite
legitimately consider it a language closely related to English. In
linguistic terms, it is six of one, half a dozen of the other.
Sharon, not back, just playing hooky
--
Sharon L. Krossa, kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu
Medieval Scotland: http://www.MedievalScotland.org/
The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names is
The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
Carusus
progeny today in the British Isles. It also seems that some people think
that there was a golden age when there were well defined population groups,
each with sparklingly different features, such as dark hair, freckles, a
specific height and physical features etc.
A moment's thought will show that this is nonsense. The modern European
population was not put together like a cooking recipe. Human groups have
intermingled and interbred for a long time, and while languages can be
linked back to a certain point, anything beyond that is pure conjecture. The
term "che" means "man" in many South American languages. Does that mean they
are somehow related to modern Russians ("chelovek")? Ultimately, all humans
are linked from a common ancestor. Modern DNA analysis techniques will no
doubt one day reconstruct her/him.
The idea of Indo-European itself comes from Sir William Jones, 1786, who
formulated a hypothesis of a lost Indo-European language, ancestor of
Sanskrit, Latin, Greek, Germanic, Celtic languages, and others; others
involved were Franz Bopp, 1816 (comparisons of verbal systems); Rasmus Rask
(notice of systematic phonological changes, 1818, and A. Schleicher,
reconstruction of pre-historic Indo-European forms, Stammbaumtheorie (tree
stem theory)
(http://mockingbird.creighton.edu/english/fajardo/teaching/eng520/indoeur.ht
m)
The hypothesis as it stands today has 11 Indo-European language subfamilies
:
Indo-Iranian (Sanskrit, Hindi, Bengali, Persian)
Hellenic (Greek)
Armenian
Balto-Slavic (Russian, Polish, Czech, Lithuanian)
Albanian
Celtic (Irish Gaelic, Welsh)
Italic (Latin, Spanish, Italian, French)
Germanic (German, English, Danish, Dutch, Swedish, Norwegian)
Anatolian (extinct) (Hittite)
Tocharian (extinct)
It is a valid hypothesis, based on a comparison of word forms while Jones
served in India.
Tiss
Sisters", claiming that we all descend from one of 7 sisters, daughters of
Eve? He was on the Today Show recently and I saw his book at Borders.
Tiss
Barnaby
"Tiss" <ejth...@i1.net> wrote in message news:3B5F8558...@i1.net...
> What do you think of the guy who has recently written a book called "Seven
> Sisters", claiming that we all descend from one of 7 sisters, daughters
of
> Eve? He was on the Today Show recently and I saw his book at Borders.
His claim is that all of us can trace our ancestry back to one of these
women. I wasn't aware that these women were sisters - indeed, I thought that
they may have lived many hears apart. Can you provide a link to his work?
It's really not that surprising that we might all be descended from one
person, though. We all have many, many thousands of ancestors. All this guy
is really saying, is that one person appears in ALL our family trees. I have
heard similar, anecdotal, claims that most Europeans are descended from
Nero.
Helen Ramsay
>snip>
> BY ANJANA AHUJA
>
> ALL Europeans descend from just seven women, the founders of seven
> clans. They arrived at different times during the past 45,000 years,
> each establishing a family which today amounts to millions but still
> bears the genetic signature of its founder.
>
> The Seven Daughters of Eve have been traced by Bryan Sykes, Professor
> of Human Genetics at Oxford University, who has named them Ursula,
> Xenia, Tara, Helena, Katrine, Valda and Jasmine.
Blabber mouth! My age has been a well-kept secret until now!
Cheers, Helen (sometimes known as Helena)
David of the Clan Gunn
>Xenia, Tara, Helena, Katrine, Valda and Jasmine.
>
>
These are all very nice names : )
-David of the Clan Gunn
(remove 'nospram' from my e-mail address to contact)
Randall Burns
can
get: DNA evidence
http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/Vikings010403.html
This is supported by the fact that Western Scots, Western Irish and
Basque are all high Rh- groups.
Now, it would seem that the languages here _ought_ to be more
similar--and why this isn't the case is a rather interesting
questions. Still, it is clear that the Roman Catholic Church got lots
of Native Americans in South America speaking Spanish. Why couldn't
something similar have happened in Britain?
"Barnaby" <barn...@hotmail.naespam.com> wrote in message news:<9iupb0$5u7$1...@phys-ma.sol.co.uk>...
> "MacHamish" <rus...@concentric.net> wrote in message
> news:veo5lt815cdduh412...@4ax.com...
> > On Mon, 16 Jul 2001 02:12:53 -0400, VonQuark <vonq...@mindspring.com>
> > wrote:
....................................
> The only evidence that I can really see that links the Picts to the Basques,
> is that both were thought to be pre-Indo-European languages, so people
> thought they were probably related. However, modern thinking seems to be
> that Pictish was a Q-Celtic language, so that pretty much puts paid to that.
>
> As for Scottish names being Serbian, it seems bloody unlikely, to say the
> least! A few names might well be Slavic, since numerous Ukranians and other
> Slsvs settled here in Modern times...
Tiss
Randall Burns wrote:
You know one of the Atlantis theories has the survivors going to the British Isles & Ireland, Spain,
Basque & France.
I don't know archaeogy got in here.
Tiss
gerald.copp
Tiss wrote:
> > >However, modern thinking seems to be
> > > that Pictish was a Q-Celtic language,
Actually P-Celtic (Brythonic, Welsh, Cornish, Breton).
maricrapp...@gmail.com
They actually have more similar and rooted word that are connected to Armenia then to indo european language family.
As a matter of fact they share the same genetic code and Armenians being mostly j and e haplogroup.
I know it sounds funny but there is a pot of evidence popping out that shows that Serbs have never came to Balkans but are autonomous there .
One example , the genetics found in skeletons in the areas that are connected with vinca culture that date back to some 5000 BC show the same halogroup that Serbs have , the genetic picture is practically the same , vincan people had a majority i2a dinaric haplogroup some r1 or r2 (forgot which one is which) but basically this r1a or r2b haplohroup is basically a mix of the i2a haplogroup with the western r1 or r2 which gives one of the 2 that I just mentioned , other then i2a and R haplogroup there are some traces of g and j haplogroup .
Serbs today have this i2a haplogroup in (don't quote me on this) 30 % r1a or r2b some 10% and the rest of the haplogroups the biggest one is i2a.
The thing people get wrong is the fact that Albanians were never illyrians .
As a matter of fact illyrians never e listed as described by romans .
There were many smaller tribes in the area that is called Illyria .
Thrace also was just a name for a geographic location , there were many tribes which had names that have connections to Serbian language.
I wouldn't be surprised if Scottish people do have some kind of connection to Serbs especially the way they relished freedom and how they also fought amongst each other.
Another thing , Greeks and romans had a tendency to butcher how things were called , example there is an area in Greece called Srbciste in older Greek language this Srbciste was written something like tribliastos or something similar , it kinda makes me question how Tribalia was actually called
And as for celts , what they were known for? For always moving and migrating , that is why they are called Celts , I think English probounciation with (kh)elts is wrong , I strongly believe they were called (s)elts which has a meaning in serbian language (seliti se) to move , moving (migrate).
There many other things , the hand of the Thracian horse man shows him holding up 3 fingers , the alphabet or rather azbuki was found in vinca , there are countless of symbols that have remained in Serbia until today .
One thing I myself figured out.
How do you say a sword in English? A sword , how do you say machete you say machete these two things are similar , you could also call a machete a small sword .
In no other language does machete have a correlation with a sword except in Serbian . In serbian Mach is a sword and Macheta is a Machete what root does machete have in English?
I could write until tomorrow , with all the things that are found , and saying all those things are coincidences is wrong because to have that many coincidences is unrealistic.