Claymore in Rob Roy?
Ari Kotziadimos
I just saw the movie Rob Roy which I think was pretty good. One thing that
made me curious was the sword Rob Roy was using. Is that what
Claymore-sword is like? I've always thougt that it's a bigger weapon with
a blade that is sharp on both edges...
I would be thankfull of any help.
Thomas
Bruce Hewat
Ari Kotziadimos wrote:
>
> I just saw the movie Rob Roy which I think was pretty good. One thing that
> made me curious was the sword Rob Roy was using. Is that what
> Claymore-sword is like? I've always thougt that it's a bigger weapon with
> a blade that is sharp on both edges...
>
That is not a traditional claymore. It is a holywood fabrication. A
real claymore, such as those unearthed duiring archeological digs are
not much more than 4 1/2 feet or so. By most big sword standards they
are small, a hand and a half length. They are doube edged. The guards
protrude downward at a slight angle and ends in a decorative circle
patern thingy.
The swords used in the lowlands were longer, over 5 feet and had a
guard that extended outward and then down ending in a knob of sorts.
For a REALLY long sword check out the swiss swords. They could be over
6 feet, or more!
If you are ever in Toronto Canada, check out the Royal Ontario Museum.
They have a great weapons exhibit with a claymore and basket hilted
sword along with targe, some mainland european swords (the big ones) and
a swanky colection of armour.
--
Bruce M. Hewat -Post Tenebras Lux-
Ron & Inga Dempsey
Claymores?
>>>>The claymores used in Wallace's time had pretty well gone by the wayside by the 16th and 17th centuries for the basket hilt long sword.
Write ti Mr. Jim Crawford, 66 Bulloch Dr. Markham for a brochure on
highland weaponry.
Ron Dempsey
StorkJE
I agree with everything in the above post as to fact, but think Bruce is
thinking of the wrong movie. Sure you're not thinking Braveheart instead
of Rob Roy? The sword in Braveheart was a two-hander, somewhere above 5
feet in length I would guess. The one used by (the movie) Rob Roy was
much smaller, one-handed, one-edged, basket-hilted if memory serves. This
was commonly called a claymore, but it's a misuse of the term. One might
guess that the English thought claymore was the scottish word for "sword"
and called anything used by Scots a claymore. The proper claymore was as
described in the previous post.
JES
"Trouble rather the tiger in his lair than the scholar amongst his books. For to you Kings and their Armies are things mighty and enduring; to him they are but toys of the moment, to be overturned by the flicking of a finger..."
Tim Troupe
st> I agree with everything in the above post as to fact, but think Bruce
st> is thinking of the wrong movie. Sure you're not thinking Braveheart
st> instead of Rob Roy? The sword in Braveheart was a two-hander,
st> somewhere above 5 feet in length I would guess. The one used by (the
Yes the brave heart sword was a great sword, the "historic" claymore was
a bit later in history ( about 100 years I believe)
st> movie) Rob Roy was much smaller, one-handed, one-edged, basket-hilted
st> if memory serves. This was commonly called a claymore, but it's a
st> misuse of the term. One might guess that the English thought claymore
st> was the scottish word for "sword" and called anything used by Scots a
st> claymore. The proper claymore was as described in the previous post.
In rob roy It was a Baskethilted claymore. It is still called that today.
st> JES
st> "Trouble rather the tiger in his lair than the scholar amongst his
st> books. For to you Kings and their Armies are things mighty and
st> enduring; to him they are but toys of the moment, to be overturned by
st> the flicking of a finger..."
st> -!-
st> ! Origin: This is an Internet Newsgroup!AOL http://www.aol.com
st> (1:105/56.1)
Ailithir
... C:\WINDOWS\RUN C:\WINDOWS\CRASH C:\WINDOWS\BURN C:\WINDOWS\DIE
Gordon Douglas Duffus
twopoint wrote:
>
> sto...@aol.com (StorkJE) wrote:
>
> >I agree with everything in the above post as to fact, but think Bruce is
> >thinking of the wrong movie. Sure you're not thinking Braveheart instead
> >of Rob Roy? The sword in Braveheart was a two-hander, somewhere above 5
> >feet in length I would guess. The one used by (the movie) Rob Roy was
> >much smaller, one-handed, one-edged, basket-hilted if memory serves. This
> >was commonly called a claymore, but it's a misuse of the term. One might
> >guess that the English thought claymore was the scottish word for "sword"
> >and called anything used by Scots a claymore. The proper claymore was as
> >described in the previous post.
>
> much middle age documentation as to being called a claymore l.
Where?
Gordon
Daniel St. Clair
Mellow Greetings,
vsic...@teklaine.com (twopoint) said:
>sto...@aol.com (StorkJE) wrote:
>
>>I agree with everything in the above post as to fact, but think Bruce is
>>thinking of the wrong movie. Sure you're not thinking Braveheart instead
>>of Rob Roy? The sword in Braveheart was a two-hander, somewhere above 5
>>feet in length I would guess. The one used by (the movie) Rob Roy was
I have seen [William] Wallace Claymores for sale that range from about
4'6" to 5 feet. They are not identicle to the regular Scottish
Claymore, though. There are some differences, primarily in the hand
guard.
>>much smaller, one-handed, one-edged, basket-hilted if memory serves. This
>>was commonly called a claymore, but it's a misuse of the term. One might
>>guess that the English thought claymore was the scottish word for "sword"
>>and called anything used by Scots a claymore. The proper claymore was as
>>described in the previous post.
>
>I'm afraid its not a misuse of the term. The basket hilted sword has
>much middle age documentation as to being called a claymore l.
I do think it is a misuse of the term! I believe this type of sword
is simply called a "Scottish Basket Hilt Sword" and I have seen it
written about and called this! :)
Be Well,
Dan
---
Danco Publishing
Your Voice to the World... Wide Web.
www.dancopublishing.com
---
Alba gu brath
---
THE WALTER
Daniel St. Clair wrote:
> >I'm afraid its not a misuse of the term. The basket hilted sword has
> >much middle age documentation as to being called a claymore l.
>
> I do think it is a misuse of the term! I believe this type of sword
> is simply called a "Scottish Basket Hilt Sword" and I have seen it
> written about and called this! :)
>
> Be Well,
> Dan
>
> ---
> Danco Publishing
> Your Voice to the World... Wide Web.
> www.dancopublishing.com
> ---
> Alba gu brath
> ---
The weapon in question is called a basket hilt clymore and was a primary
weapon in the fight for liberty under Bonnie Prince Charley. It is a
claymore weather it is 2 feet long or 5 feet long simply becauase that
is the nomancalature (a lot like why aren't onions called roses ...
because it would be silly to add a cup of roses to chille). The B H
claymore as opposed to the traditional claymore was refered to as the
"long sword and the short", this with the targe' and the axe were the
most common weapons of the common folk. The emergance of guns, gunpowder
and so forth pretty much ended the era of the claymore after the '45.
Your's truly
The Walter of Clan Ferguson in Grandfview. Mo. USA.
Sheila McGregor
Dwelly gives two illustrated drawings of swords (p202),
a basket-hilted broadsword or Claidheamh-mor ('claymore')
and a two-handed sword or Claidheamh-da-laimh (literally,
two-bladed or two-edged sword). However in his main entry
he also says that a claidheamh-da-laimh is properly known
as a c.mor.
Also, a claidheamh caol was a small sword or rapier; a c.
crom was a scimitar (a 'bent' sword) - I fancy this might
also have been the name of the curved cavalry sabre; and c.
leathann ('broad' sword) is presumably the correct name or
original name of the broadsword, compared with the c.caol,
perhaps.
The one evidently derived from the other - though not in
Scotland - as the quillons or cross-pieces of the older
bigger sword are still represented in vestigial form in
the basket-hilt.
So it seems to be correct to call either type a claymore,
but both types had their own more specific names. Presumably
the 'Big Sword' was just the name for the main weapon of the
day.
How they arrived in Scotland is of some interest. The older
type is associated with a certain type of fourteenth-century
grave, found mainly in the West Highlands and thought by some
writers to depict a member of the banned Templar order. If
refugee knights of this order settled in the Highlands no
doubt they brought their swords with them and put them to good
use. This type of gravestone typically shows a sword, full-
size, in complete detail, and it has been supposed that the
design was marked out from a real sword.
The smaller later sword is invariably associated with Andrea
Ferrara and many examples have his mark of a running wolf on
them, which of course doesn't mean they were made in Italy.
It has been proposed that the blades were imported in bulk and
the hilts added in this country, but there is a story that
Ferrara blades were forged in the Trossachs. Certainly a
great number of small iron bloomeries dating to the fourteenth
century or thereabouts have been found in Rannoch, exploiting
the bog iron. From there to a Ferrara blade would be a long and
very specialised process but no more specialised than the later
manufacture of pistols at Doune.
--
Sheila McGregor
Charles Cheney
Gordon Douglas Duffus <"gdu...@erols.com"@erols.com> wrote:
>twopoint wrote:
>>
>> sto...@aol.com (StorkJE) wrote:
>>
>> >I agree with everything in the above post as to fact, but think Bruce is
>> >thinking of the wrong movie. Sure you're not thinking Braveheart instead
>> >of Rob Roy? The sword in Braveheart was a two-hander, somewhere above 5
>> >feet in length I would guess. The one used by (the movie) Rob Roy was
>> >much smaller, one-handed, one-edged, basket-hilted if memory serves. This
>> >was commonly called a claymore, but it's a misuse of the term. One might
>> >guess that the English thought claymore was the scottish word for "sword"
>> >and called anything used by Scots a claymore. The proper claymore was as
>> >described in the previous post.
>>
>> I'm afraid its not a misuse of the term. The basket hilted sword has
>> much middle age documentation as to being called a claymore l.
>Where?
> Gordon
On page 22 of "The Swords and Sorrows" published by the National
Trust for Scotland, A V B Norman writes, "This is the two-handed
sword until recently called by collectors a claymore (from the gaelic
claidheamh mor. the great sword), a term which should only be used for
the basket-hilted broad sword. The correct term is now known to be
claidheamh da laimh." Whatever that means.
Incidentally, according to the same source, only the double-edged
variety is called a broadsword, the single-edge is a back sword.
Charles
NINETY 3RD
wrote:
>>The weapon in question is called a basket hilt clymore and was a primary
weapon in the fight for liberty under Bonnie Prince Charley.<<
A bit off subject, but just to set matters clear, BP Charlie was not
invloved in any fight for "liberty". He was fighting to put his father -
thence eventually himself - on the throne of Britain (which included
Scotland).
>>The emergance of guns, gunpowder
and so forth pretty much ended the era of the claymore after the '45.<<
Firearms and gunpowder had pretty much already emerged by 1745 and were in
constant use. Flintlocks and bayonets had long since replaced matchlocks.
The "Highland Charge" tactic of the Jacobites included first the firing of
muskets during the rush, then the drawing of swords - IF one had such.
Even recently discovered sketches from 1745 by an unknown artist in the
Penicuick area depict most of the Highlanders armed with firelocks and
bayonets rather than broadswords.
The study of such as the wars in which Marlborough fought will show the
prevalent use of firearms prior to the era of 1745. Most would agree it
was probably the machine gun which doomed the use of any sword in combat.
Bill MacLeod
Charles Cheney wrote:
>
> >Where?
> > Gordon
>
> On page 22 of "The Swords and Sorrows" published by the National
> Trust for Scotland, A V B Norman writes, "This is the two-handed
> sword until recently called by collectors a claymore (from the gaelic
> claidheamh mor. the great sword), a term which should only be used for
> the basket-hilted broad sword. The correct term is now known to be
> claidheamh da laimh." Whatever that means.
>
> Incidentally, according to the same source, only the double-edged
> variety is called a broadsword, the single-edge is a back sword.
>
> Charles
Hello?
Anyone out there have any idea how reliable a source this "The Swords
and Sorrows" is? I would be interested in its publishing date, for one
thing. As anyone can tell you, non-fiction does not necessarily mean
true. All pictures, literature, and spoken references I have ever
seen/read/heard invariably refer to the 5' (or so) two-handed
double-edged sword as a claymore and to the basket hilted sword as just
that (i.e. basket hilted broadsword). The two-handed double-edged
longsword at the museum in Edinburgh is labeled "Claymore". A very
rusted but still recognizable 4.5' cross-hilted two-handed two-edged
relic at Dunvegan Castle is also so labeled.
As always, I am willing to learn - but Charles's information simply goes
against anything else with which I have ever come in contact on this
subject.
With respect,
William (Bill) MacLeod
(remove the nospam from my address to respond)
NINETY 3RD
One might note I said >doomed the use of
ANY sword in combat.<
Not being a stuck up sticky beak, but if I am to be nit- picked, then the
nits fly in both directions! ;-)
The bayonet had been around quite awhile, and became generally an
"enlisted man's" weapon. Officers and cavalry continuing to carry swords
into combat (and often continuing to use) well into WWI. Foot officers
were issued swords as, being in command positions, in addition to needing
a weapon in defending themselves they had other things to do in those
"tight formations smashing into each other" than try to load, fire and
wield a large firearm - which is why when revolvers also came about,
officers bought them up.
By saying ANY sword, it was these carried by officers and cavalry to which
I referred, not the general on-slaught of entire sword wielding (yes - and
along with other implements) armies made redundant by continually improved
firearms.
It might have been nice to take a look at all of the post before and
including this last statement as well, which pretty much already said
everything about "claymore" mentioned in bhe...@chat.carleton.ca 's
response.
Cheers!
Azrael's Help
All pictures, literature, and spoken references I have ever
> seen/read/heard invariably refer to the 5' (or so) two-handed
> double-edged sword as a claymore and to the basket hilted sword as just
> that (i.e. basket hilted broadsword).
Um, well, I know I'm new to the group, but I just thought I'd say that both
are Claymores, at least according to a Museum Replicas Inc. Catalog. They
had a side article about the word. It was in the Winter '96 ed. True,
they are not historians, but I've found they know what they speak of.
Sincerely,
Beau Salsman,
Descendant of Clan Lamont
John H. Snow
> Daniel St. Clair wrote:
> > >I'm afraid its not a misuse of the term. The basket hilted sword has
> > >much middle age documentation as to being called a claymore l.
> >
> > is simply called a "Scottish Basket Hilt Sword" and I have seen it
> > written about and called this! :)
> >
>
> The weapon in question is called a basket hilt clymore and was a primary
> weapon in the fight for liberty under Bonnie Prince Charley. It is a
> claymore weather it is 2 feet long or 5 feet long simply becauase that
> is the nomancalature (a lot like why aren't onions called roses ...
> because it would be silly to add a cup of roses to chille). The B H
> claymore as opposed to the traditional claymore was refered to as the
> "long sword and the short", this with the targe' and the axe were the
> most common weapons of the common folk. The emergance of guns, gunpowder
> and so forth pretty much ended the era of the claymore after the '45.
>
From my readings on medieval weaponry, it seems that any full length sword qualified for the term "claymore." The term has been used both for the shorter basket hilted weapon, and the two handed sword.