A Brown Clan?
Tim
No, Not Lamont or MacMillan (or Douglas, or any of the others that Browns
married). I'm wanting to know if there's a Brown Clan..And I f so, anybody
have an address.
I have an address for a "Clan Broun" here in America, but don't know if it's
legitimate.
Thanks,
Tim Brown
Lesley Robertson
"Tim" <quorthon*REMOVE*@sprintmail.com> wrote in message
news:VAw46.28195$F_3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
correctly constituted club. HOWEVER, Brown is one of those surnames which
arises all over the place, and covers a range of unrelated families from
anywhere in the UK plus half of Europe (when you remember that many
immigrants to countries such as the US translated their names to make
themselves fit in better). There isn't a historically-valid Clan Brown/Broun
in Scotland. People carrying the name may have links to the clans, depending
on where in Scotland they came from, if they came from Scotland. Only about
half of the names of Scotland have valid links to the clans, but that
doesn't make any of the ones that don't any the less scottish.
Also, remember that you are born into a clan - noone can charge you a
subscription to become a member. What you have to pay to join are the Clan
Societies and Associations.
There is, of course, nothing to stop anyone starting a "Clan" and appointing
themself the "Chief", although the advertising standards authorities would
be correct to chase them if they start claiming a history back into the
mists of time... Validation of such claims can only be made through the
Standing Council of Chiefs and Lyon King at Arms, both of whom have fairly
high requirements of proof.
Lesley Robertson
LVKiltie8703
>From: "Tim" quorthon*REMOVE*@sprintmail.com
>Date: 1/2/01 7:00 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <VAw46.28195$F_3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Highlander Magazine' in the list of the Clans, it shows a Clan Broun Society
with a Jay Thomas J. Brown as the head, located at 38 Highrock St. Lynn MA.
01902 The website is shown as www.ClanBrown.org che...@banet.net My wife
and I are both of Clan Donald. I hope this helps you out. Bye for now & Best
Regards to you and yours in the New Year. Charles H. & Margaret Leitch.
Davo
Tim, there is a Brown tartan that is available in the springweight,, 8
ounce
Ad841164
Bryn Fraser
<ad84...@aol.com> writes
>There is no 'Clan' Brown. Brown is an English name.
Broun/Brown are septs of both the MacMillan and the Lamont... And is
recorded in both Lanarkshire and Moray in the 13th century...
Bryn Fraser
Issues? You think *You* have issues?
Lesley Robertson
"Bryn Fraser" <br...@finhall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ybPrCHAJ...@finhall.demon.co.uk...
> In article <20010125193139...@ng-fq1.aol.com>, Ad841164
> <ad84...@aol.com> writes
> >There is no 'Clan' Brown. Brown is an English name.
>
> Broun/Brown are septs of both the MacMillan and the Lamont... And is
> recorded in both Lanarkshire and Moray in the 13th century...
>
Braun (Germany) Bruin (Netherlands), etc. There isn't a single Brown family,
even.
Lesley Robertson
Akins of that Ilk
"Lesley Robertson" <l.a.ro...@stm.tudelft.nl> wrote in message
news:953cpm$26o$1...@news.tudelft.nl...
No, but there is a Brown tartan - a lovely one at that, in shades of red,
black, and blue. And as for the Brown/Broun clan society, you might check:
http://www.tartans.com/clans/Broun/broun.html for additional information on
their history and origins.
Im4menonly
Crest,Coat of Arms and even Clan Crest gift items in the way of Cap badges
,kilt pins and the like . Visit my site at : http://gaelicdreams.tripod.com
Sharon L. Krossa
> In article <20010125193139...@ng-fq1.aol.com>, Ad841164
> <ad84...@aol.com> writes
> >There is no 'Clan' Brown. Brown is an English name.
>
> Broun/Brown are septs of both the MacMillan and the Lamont... And is
> recorded in both Lanarkshire and Moray in the 13th century...
Note, however, that evidence of people bynamed Broun/Brown in
Lanarkshire and Moray in the 13th century does not mean that these
people were considered in any way connected to any clan by themselves or
by their contemporaries. These associations are generally modern. (So,
yes, a long established Scottish tradition, just not a medieval or even
early modern one.)
Sharon, sero sed serio
--
Sharon L. Krossa, kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu
Medieval Scotland: http://www.MedievalScotland.org/
The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names is
The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
Akins of that Ilk
"Sharon L. Krossa" <kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu> wrote in message
news:1enukvs.5g64na1po1ch4N%kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu...
> Bryn Fraser <br...@finhall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > In article <20010125193139...@ng-fq1.aol.com>, Ad841164
> > <ad84...@aol.com> writes
> > >There is no 'Clan' Brown. Brown is an English name.
> >
> > Broun/Brown are septs of both the MacMillan and the Lamont... And is
> > recorded in both Lanarkshire and Moray in the 13th century...
>
> Note, however, that evidence of people bynamed Broun/Brown in
> Lanarkshire and Moray in the 13th century does not mean that these
> people were considered in any way connected to any clan by themselves or
> by their contemporaries. These associations are generally modern. (So,
> yes, a long established Scottish tradition, just not a medieval or even
> early modern one.)
Hm, so I suppose that we are into the "late modern era" by the time the 1597
Statute was issued calling into account the "chieftains and chiefs of all
clans and principals of the branches of the said clans dwelling in the
Highlands or Borders upon the lands of diverse landlords"?
Anyway, as to the Browns, the following bit of historical info might be
of interest, being taken from the 1870 edition of "The Highlanders"
illustrated by Kenneth MacLeay, with accompanying text by Amelia Murray
MacGregor:
"Donald Brown, the grandfather of John Brown, was crofter of Renachat,
opposite Balmoral Castle; he married Janet Shaw, a shrewd, sensible woman,
daughter of James Shaw, a native of Badenoch.....The name Brown has probably
been derived from some epithet, first applied to designate an individual,
and subsequently adopted as a family surname, according to a custom very
prevalent in Scotland. It is the third most common name in Scotland, and in
England the sixth; the estimated population in Scotland, holding this name
in 1861, is 33,820. The Aberdeenshire Browns claim descent from Sir John
Brown, of Fordel, in Fifeshire; he joined the Covenanters in the reign of
King Charles II; his estates and title were subsequently forfeited, and he
died a prisoner in Leith Fort. One of his sons became a Professor in the
University of Utrecht, and, on his return to Scotland, Professor of Divinity
in Marischal College, Aberdeen; he left a numerous family of sons, chiefly
educated for the Church, who eventually obtained livings in Aberdeenshire,
and from whom the descent of the families of this name in the county may be
inferred."
Sharon L. Krossa
> "Sharon L. Krossa" <kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu> wrote in message
> news:1enukvs.5g64na1po1ch4N%kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu...
> > Bryn Fraser <br...@finhall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <20010125193139...@ng-fq1.aol.com>, Ad841164
> > > <ad84...@aol.com> writes
> > > >There is no 'Clan' Brown. Brown is an English name.
> > >
> > > Broun/Brown are septs of both the MacMillan and the Lamont... And is
> > > recorded in both Lanarkshire and Moray in the 13th century...
> >
> > Note, however, that evidence of people bynamed Broun/Brown in
> > Lanarkshire and Moray in the 13th century does not mean that these
> > people were considered in any way connected to any clan by themselves or
> > by their contemporaries. These associations are generally modern. (So,
> > yes, a long established Scottish tradition, just not a medieval or even
> > early modern one.)
>
> Hm, so I suppose that we are into the "late modern era" by the time the 1597
No, the late 16th century is the start of "Early Modern" in Scotland.
> Statute was issued calling into account the "chieftains and chiefs of all
> clans and principals of the branches of the said clans dwelling in the
> Highlands or Borders upon the lands of diverse landlords"?
And how exactly is this evidence that anyone surnamed Brown was
associated with clans by themselves or their contemporaries? Or, indeed,
that any 16th century Lowlanders other than certain borders families
were associated with the notion of "clans"? (And note that other
Lowlanders only started calling certain border families "clans" in the
16th century -- and they did not mean it as a compliment! The majority
of Lowlanders considered themsleves to be civilized and considered
Highlanders and clans to be wild and uncivilized, thus they came to call
what they regarded as wild and uncivilized border families "clans".)
Further, please note that Lowland (non-clan) people, in the 16th century
or 18th, thinking clan membership was determined by surname is not
evidence that clan membership in actual clans was determined by surname.
(Indeed, where there is any correlation in the English names of Gaels,
the cause and effect is in quite the other direction.)
Turning to the 13th century, which is before the cultural notions of
"Highlanders" and "Lowlanders" had even developed, it is even more
ridiculous to associate clan membership with surnames, since even the
bynames of most non-Gaels were not fixed and inherited but rather were
personally descriptive. There is nothing in a man being called the son
of <Brun> or being described as <Brown> that indicates said man is in
any way associated with any clan or is even a Gael (let alone is
associated with some specific clan). And there is no doubt that in the
13th century only Gaels were affilliated with clans.
> Anyway, as to the Browns, the following bit of historical info might be
> of interest, being taken from the 1870 edition of "The Highlanders"
> illustrated by Kenneth MacLeay, with accompanying text by Amelia Murray
> MacGregor:
Not exactly the most reliable source, but it will do for the moment...
> "Donald Brown, the grandfather of John Brown, was crofter of Renachat,
> opposite Balmoral Castle; he married Janet Shaw, a shrewd, sensible woman,
> daughter of James Shaw, a native of Badenoch.....The name Brown has probably
> been derived from some epithet, first applied to designate an individual,
> and subsequently adopted as a family surname, according to a custom very
> prevalent in Scotland. It is the third most common name in Scotland, and in
> England the sixth; the estimated population in Scotland, holding this name
> in 1861, is 33,820. The Aberdeenshire Browns claim descent from Sir John
> Brown, of Fordel, in Fifeshire; he joined the Covenanters in the reign of
> King Charles II; his estates and title were subsequently forfeited, and he
> died a prisoner in Leith Fort. One of his sons became a Professor in the
> University of Utrecht, and, on his return to Scotland, Professor of Divinity
> in Marischal College, Aberdeen; he left a numerous family of sons, chiefly
> educated for the Church, who eventually obtained livings in Aberdeenshire,
> and from whom the descent of the families of this name in the county may be
> inferred."
In other words, not a "clan" in sight...
Sharon
Akins of that Ilk
"Sharon L. Krossa" <kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu> wrote in message
news:1ep36pj.6kbhgt1hyowkyN%kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu...
Well, whatever the case may have been historically, the Browns of Scotland
are today considered to be a clan. See the already posted article below
concerning the defination of a modern Scottish clan:
( The following article was taken from the genealogical newspaper "The
Family
Tree", edited by Beth Gay):
THE BLAIRS ARE A CLAN!
The Blair Family is indeed a Scottish Clan according to a detailed
legal opinion rendered by Sir Crispin Agnew of Lochnaw, Bt. QC Rothesay
Herald at Arms to the Lord Lyon Court in Edinburgh, the Secretary and Deputy
Secretary of the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs concur in this opinion.
Sir Crispin Agnew states, "Clan is regularly used nowadays to describe
all types of Scottish families who have an armorial chief." (Chiefs of both
early branches of the Blair family, the Blairs of that Ilk, (Blairs of
Blair), and the Blairs of Balthayock, were granted arms by the Scottish
Crown and therefore are armigerous families.)
This opinion was requested in order to obtain an authoritative and
definate answer to the question of the Blair Family being a Scottish Clan.
Secretary, George Way, Baron of Plean, and Deputy Secretary Romilly
Squire, of the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs, met with William
Campbell Blair, M.D. at the Pleasanton Scottish Games. They are also
coeditors of the "Scottish Clan and Family Encyclopedia", in which the Blair
Family is listed among the armigerous clans and families of Scotland, and
they indicated there is no distinction in present day usage between the
terms armigerous clan and armigerous families, in other words these are
interchangable terms. Therefore, they agreed that the use of the name "The
Clan Blair Society" is appropriate and correct.
Copies of Sir Crispin Agnew's legal opinion are available by e-mail at
Bbbl...@aol.com
connochies
Akins of that Ilk <sja...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:8x8r6.3338$8a7....@news2.atl...
Yep the Lord Lyon knows what the tourist board likes :-)
Allan
>
>
>
Glenallan
"Thur's no a loat o' thaim in Govan."
Cheers
The Bunnet.
------------
"connochies" <co...@conno.greatxscape.net> wrote in message
news:98jies$qei$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
Akins of that Ilk
"Glenallan" <robert...@icscotland.net> wrote in message
news:r3dr6.21342$Cq.543300@news2-hme0...
> Would you trust a Scot called 'Crispin'.??
>
> "Thur's no a loat o' thaim in Govan."
One does wonder where the Agnews came up with the name. The late Sir Iain
Moncrieffe of that Ilk, also a herald to Lyon Court, was the father of two
sons who he gave the rather unusual names of Perrigrin and Merlin.
Evidently, Sir Iain had a hawkish interest in the ancient sport of falconry.
Clan MacLeod Society - Sally Smith
Lesley Robertson <l.a.ro...@stm.tudelft.nl> wrote:
>I'm thinking of starting a new clan - how about MacMuppet?
>Lesley Robertson
Oooh, sign me up!
Sally
--
Sally Smith, webmaster for the Clan MacLeod Societies, mac...@best.com
http://www.clan-macleod.com
Disclaimer: unless stated, the above posting is entirely my own opinion
Iain
Sally wrote :
: Oooh, sign me up!
: Sally
Just send us your money and your in!
Iain...
Sharon L. Krossa
> Well, whatever the case may have been historically, the Browns of Scotland
> are today considered to be a clan. See the already posted article below
> concerning the defination of a modern Scottish clan:
And that's sure helpful information to all those searching their family
roots and history all the way back to the 20th/21st century.
You'd think people making such a fuss about "preserving their cultural
heritage" would be more careful to find out exactly what that heritage
actually was. (Here's a hint -- history is involved.)
Sharon, from the "Krossa clan"
Bryn Fraser
>
>> Sharon, from the "Krossa clan"
>
>I'm thinking of starting a new clan - how about MacMuppet?
That could have some interesting Septs....
MacKermit springs to mind...
MacPiggi another...
>
>
>
Bryn Fraser
Please remember when laying turf: Green side up!
euroleader
>
> > Sharon, from the "Krossa clan"
>
> I'm thinking of starting a new clan - how about MacMuppet?
>
>
>
......All this time admiring Lesley's restraint, and finally a touch of
sarcasm creeps in! (Or perhaps I've missed some of the sharper comments).
Pete McScooter
Sharon L. Krossa
> "Sharon L. Krossa" <kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu> wrote in message
> news:1eq686m.1efy12k2cd0csN%kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu...
>
> > Sharon, from the "Krossa clan"
>
> Soon to be MacKrossa, no doubt?
Then Mackrossa, then MacRossa, which is obviously the long lost senior
clan to Clan Ross...
> I'm thinking of starting a new clan - how about MacMuppet?
Can I apply for the sub-franchises of the MacElmo and MacTickleme-Elmo
septs?
Sharon
Lesley Robertson
> Lesley Robertson <l.a.ro...@stm.tudelft.nl> wrote:
>
> > "Sharon L. Krossa" <kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu> wrote in message
> > news:1eq686m.1efy12k2cd0csN%kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu...
> >
> > > Sharon, from the "Krossa clan"
> >
> > Soon to be MacKrossa, no doubt?
>
> Then Mackrossa, then MacRossa, which is obviously the long lost senior
> clan to Clan Ross...
I should have seen that!
>
> > I'm thinking of starting a new clan - how about MacMuppet?
>
> Can I apply for the sub-franchises of the MacElmo and MacTickleme-Elmo
> septs?
>
Of course - you'll have to come up with a suitably tasteful tartan, though.
Lesley Robertson
Sharon L. Krossa
> Sharon L. Krossa <kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu> wrote in message
> news:1eqci0y.h4sou4ar68zkN%kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu...
> > Lesley Robertson <l.a.ro...@stm.tudelft.nl> wrote:
> >
> > > "Sharon L. Krossa" <kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu> wrote in message
> > > news:1eq686m.1efy12k2cd0csN%kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu...
> > >
> > > > Sharon, from the "Krossa clan"
> > >
> > > Soon to be MacKrossa, no doubt?
> >
> > Then Mackrossa, then MacRossa, which is obviously the long lost senior
> > clan to Clan Ross...
>
> I should have seen that!
It's patently obvious, despite what those lying fools from Clan Ross
say, so yes, you should have! But now that you've seen the light, you
are forgiven for having been so obtuse :-)
> > > I'm thinking of starting a new clan - how about MacMuppet?
> >
> > Can I apply for the sub-franchises of the MacElmo and MacTickleme-Elmo
> > septs?
> >
> Of course - you'll have to come up with a suitably tasteful tartan, though.
I'm thinking they should have a bright red base ;-)
Searran nighean mhic Rossa, Toiseach Cloinn Ealmoigh
Clan MacLeod Society - Sally Smith
Sharon L. Krossa <kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu> wrote:
>> I'm thinking of starting a new clan - how about MacMuppet?
>
>Can I apply for the sub-franchises of the MacElmo and MacTickleme-Elmo
>septs?
Oooh, she's the clever one, going for that filthy lucre!
I would be content with the lowly MacRowlf the dog.
Lesley Robertson
Clan MacLeod Society - Sally Smith <mac...@best.com> wrote in message
news:6pOs6.1991$Up.1...@sea-read.news.verio.net...
> In article <1eqci0y.h4sou4ar68zkN%kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu>,
> Sharon L. Krossa <kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu> wrote:
>
> >> I'm thinking of starting a new clan - how about MacMuppet?
> >
> >Can I apply for the sub-franchises of the MacElmo and MacTickleme-Elmo
> >septs?
>
> Oooh, she's the clever one, going for that filthy lucre!
>
> I would be content with the lowly MacRowlf the dog.
>
> Sally
The more we look at this, the more I like it. We'll have more female
Chieftains heading up septs than any other Clan! Maybe we'll use black as
the base for the MacMuppet dress tartan - it's so slimming!
Lesley Robertson
Ann Getty
mac...@best.com (Clan MacLeod Society - Sally Smith) wrote:
>In article <1eqci0y.h4sou4ar68zkN%kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu>,
>Sharon L. Krossa <kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu> wrote:
>
>>> I'm thinking of starting a new clan - how about MacMuppet?
>>
>>Can I apply for the sub-franchises of the MacElmo and MacTickleme-Elmo
>>septs?
>
>Oooh, she's the clever one, going for that filthy lucre!
>
>I would be content with the lowly MacRowlf the dog.
I intend to be the guiding light behind the MacGonzo sept...
Ann
Clan MacLeod Society - Sally Smith
Lesley Robertson <l.a.ro...@stm.tudelft.nl> wrote:
>Chieftains heading up septs than any other Clan! Maybe we'll use black as
>the base for the MacMuppet dress tartan - it's so slimming!
Lesley, you're a genius! And we'll use small checks instead of large
ones, especially for anything that goes around the hips.
Sally
it's time to play the music, it's time to light the lights...