86 helix wiring / engine install question
D0N
need some help.
On the engine there is a black & red wire that comes from the
altenator. It has a single male connector with a rubber boot
protector. On the helix there is a black & red wire with a female
connector and rubber boot protector. The service manual appears to
show it going from the alternator to the ignition control module.
My question is... What does this wire do exactly and is it 100%
necessary?
I ask because my new engine does not have this black & red wire coming
from the altenator. It has every other wire except this one. I'm
wondering what problems this is going to create?
thank you.
PS - please post answers here rather than emailing me. I may not get
the email due to a spam filter.
D0N
module to the engines "exciter coil".
Evidently this new engine doesn't have an exciter coil?!
What does an exciter coil do and wouldn't the engine have to have one
to run?
paul c
I'm not an expert but here goes. I believe the B/R wire goes from the
"stator" aka "exciter coil" to the ICM (which I think is a CDI on the
Helix). It provides a voltage to a capacitator in the ICM/CDI. When
the pulse generator applies a voltage to the ICM/CDI, the ICM/CDI knows
it's time to discharge the capacitator which in turn loads up the spark
coil. I think without this wire, the scoot won't run.
I'm wondering if the bundle of wires coming from the alternator includes
a black-red one, along with the three yellow ones.
There is a diagram at
It shows only one bundle of wires coming from the stator.
p
D0N
>
> It shows only one bundle of wires coming from the stator.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
That diagram isn't really correct but it is close. They show the two
connectors coming from the alternator area... each having only 2
wires... and then 2 seperate wires.
On my 86 helix engine the connector from the pulse generator has two
wires (green & blue I think) but the other connector coming from the
alternator has 3 wires (all yellow) AND then a seperate single red/
black wire.
According to the service manual the red/black wire comes from the
"exciter coil" (is that another name for the stator?) to the ICM and
then to the ignition switch.
My new engine only has the 3 yellow wires coming from the alternator
and the 2 wires from the pulse generator. It's completely missing the
black/red wire! How can it run without an exciter coil? I don't
understand.
I just got the engine in, hooked up and put new fluids in it today. It
will not run. Now, I'm gonna have to take the damned thing back out of
the scooter and take the side case off to see what the heck is going
on.
This is a pic of the new engine.
http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/2/0/7/0/9/webimg/54480749_o.jpg
http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/2/0/7/0/9/webimg/54480770_o.jpg
paul c
Yes, I believe the "exciter coil" is another name for one of the stator
windings, I think the idea is to bypass the rectifier/regulator in order
to get a high voltage to the cdi capacitor and I don't see how the
engine could run unless the new engine is designed for a different
ignition system even though I think the different years of Helix'es all
use the same system, but I guess knowing that doesn't help you much.
Looks like I haven't given you anything useful, sorry to waste your
time, it just makes me think either this isn't a Helix engine or that it
is incomplete.
p
D0N
It's a chinese helix clone engine used in many atvs and buggies. It's
almost an exact copy of the helix engine. The only things I've found
that differ from the original are the throttle cable mount and this
damned black/red wire being missing.
Check out ebay Item number: 150134363644
Maybe the clone engine doesn't use a stator? I don't know how it could
run without one though? Is that possible?
Turbo Torch
"D0N" <don...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1184466736.3...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> It's a chinese helix clone engine used in many atvs and buggies. It's
> almost an exact copy of the helix engine. The only things I've found
> that differ from the original are the throttle cable mount and this
> damned black/red wire being missing.
>
> Check out ebay Item number: 150134363644
>
> Maybe the clone engine doesn't use a stator? I don't know how it could
> run without one though? Is that possible?
Of course it has a stator. I know next to nothing about the Helix engines
(absolutely nothing about the CCS clone engines), however some Honda
motorcycle engines used a stator with a low speed winding and a high speed
winding. I'm into the Honda CX motorcycles and the early models used that
type of stator. Typically the high speed winding on those will go bad first
and the bike will stall out when reved past 4000 rpm. A simple hack of
patching in the low speed wire to cover both sides will buy you more time.
These stators were used with Honda's CDI ignition.
Later models used a standard 3 phase stator with just three yellow wires.
These were used with Honda's transistorized ignitions.
I may be way off here, but if your original engine used a CDI system and the
new one uses a transistorized system...well you're in trouble. You'll need
to hunt down a compatible ignition system and wire everything in properly.
--
George
CX500 TURBO CX650 TURBO
'86 CH150D '04 Hayabusa
Classic Honda Scooter Forums
http://weacceptfoodstamps.com/scooters/
D0N
> "D0N" <don_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
the original and the clone both use the same ignition system. The
clone even comes with a new CDI/IGM that's identical to the original.
paul c
From the wiring diagram, my guess is that a real Helix won't run
without a stator, since it generates ignition voltage rather than the
battery. I think some bikes are wired to run ignition from the battery
or regulator, maybe this engine is intended for those. I suppose it's
always possible there is a hidden wire end under the alt cover. You
might try the groups.yahoo.com ch250elite group, I know the Elite is not
exactly a Helix (but very similar or even identical for many engine
parts) but there are some people there who know much more than I do and
some of them are familiar with Helix'es.
p
D0N
Paul thanks for your help.
Now that I think of it... some of the 125cc honda clones (the GPX
comes to mind) that are made to bolt into the honda 50's do not come
with stators. I'm betting this 250 doesn't have one. I'm hoping I can
swap my original helix stator into the clone. I'll find out tomorrow.
Turbo Torch
Why would they give you an engine with every possible component from
ignition modules, radiator, carburettor, hoses ect. and then leave out a
main internal engine component like a stator? A part that's usually NOT
easy to replace, runs in an oil bath and will require new cover seals? That
would be like leaving out a connecting rod and piston.
An engine won't run without a source of power and that's exactly what the
stator provides. A stator isn't some optional item that you seem to be
thinking it is. Lastly you said you have 3 yellow wires coming from the
alternator...those ARE your stator wires.
What does the company that sold you the engine have to say?
D0N
> "D0N" <don_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Why would they give you an engine with every possible component from
> ignition modules, radiator, carburettor, hoses ect. and then leave out a
> main internal engine component like a stator?
BECAUSE IT IS NOT NECESSARY IN SOME APPLICATIONS.
Blaster
I would never spent that amount of money on a Helix to get it running, Too
bad.
Turbo Torch
>> ignition modules, radiator, carburettor, hoses ect. and then leave out a
>> main internal engine component like a stator?
>
> BECAUSE IT IS NOT NECESSARY IN SOME APPLICATIONS.
HAHAHAHA! What application would that be? As a paperweight? Boat anchor?
You have three yellow wires, THREE YELLOW WIRES ARE YOUR STATOR WIRES! They
are hard soldered to the stator!
An engine does not run without a power source for the ignition, whether it's
an alternator/magneto/generator. Since you seem to have all the answers,
why isn't your Helix running? Are you so clueless that you think maybe
there's just empty space inside that cover and under "some applications" the
ignition system is powered by good thoughts, love and magic?
Or maybe it's got a nice old school dirt bike style magneto hidden under
there that you can just swap right out for a stator? Plug and play baby!
Good luck, you're going to need it.
paul c
>
...
> An engine won't run without a source of power and that's exactly what
> the stator provides. A stator isn't some optional item that you seem to
> be thinking it is. Lastly you said you have 3 yellow wires coming from
> the alternator...those ARE your stator wires.
> What does the company that sold you the engine have to say?
>
Whatever the ignition scheme intended for this engine is, it still
puzzles me why there would be only three (yellow) wires. I thought all
stators had to have one or even two ground wires, otherwise there's
nowhere for the current to go. I believe on the Helix that the fourth
Red-black wire is a stator ground wire. Maybe DON will be able to
compare the new one with the old one once he gets them off.
p
Turbo Torch
"paul c" <toledob...@oohay.ac> wrote in message
news:K7rmi.119699$1i1.103692@pd7urf3no...
Just different stator designs that can change during different years even on
the same model. My 150 has an extra black/red wire coming from an extra
coil in the stator and leading to the CDI. The opposite black/white wire on
the CDI attaches to the ignition switch. No ground wire needed as the stator
body is bolted directly to the engine. Honda used different designs as far
as regulation. My CXTs shunt all excess current to ground so the stator is
always at 100% output. Only three yellow wires are used, one for each
phase.
I'd say the odds of that extra wire being cut off or stuffed under the cover
are next to zero, but since he bought a Chinese clone engine anything is
possible. We also don't know for sure if the included ignition module is
the same internally or not and Don's responses are too vague to tell if he
tried to use it. Since he insists an engine is capable of running without
an ignition power source, trying to talk a guy like that through anything
will just prove to be a headache. Hopefully he'll take it to someone that
knows what they are doing.
paul c
...
> Just different stator designs that can change during different years
> even on the same model. My 150 has an extra black/red wire coming from
> an extra coil in the stator and leading to the CDI. The opposite
> black/white wire on the CDI attaches to the ignition switch. No ground
> wire needed as the stator body is bolted directly to the engine. Honda
> used different designs as far as regulation. My CXTs shunt all excess
> current to ground so the stator is always at 100% output. Only three
> yellow wires are used, one for each phase.
Seems fair enough, the fewer wires the better, I guess.
BTW, on the Helix, I believe the black-red wire was present from 1986 to
at least 2001 and possibly still is.
Can anybody provide a web link for Helix compatible engines from China,
or (preferably) Taiwan?
thanks,
p
D0N
to find these engines do a search on ebay for "250cc water-cooled
engine". You'll see a couple people selling them.
Alright, I swapped out the 4 wire honda stator from the old engine
into the new engine. There was no black/red wire stuffed inside the
case cover... only the 3 yellow wires.
I tried to start it and she wouldn't run. I swapped the spark plugs
and she fired right up.
At this point I can't say for sure that I even needed to swap the
stators since the spark plug in the new engine wasn't sparking. Maybe,
just maybe it would have run without the black/red wire??? I doubt it
though.
Friggin thing runs lick a clock now. Gotta put the body work back on,
break the engine in and put in some golden spectro synthetic oil. This
clone engine will probably run 20k miles or more without issues.
I'm really impressed with the chinese clones. I've got two honda 50's
with 125cc clone engines in em. One is a ZB50 that I ride on the
street (top speed 69mph) and the other is a z50r for the dirt. The
clone engines are inexpensive compared to original honda engines and
they are dependable as heck.
Here's my little bikes...
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v517/esop/?action=view¤t=P6130006-1.jpg
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v517/esop/?action=view¤t=P2080003.jpg
D0N
> "D0N" <don_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Obviously, you've never owned or ridden a helix >:-) They're
awesome! 75-80mph and 65-70mpg all day long. AM/FM kenwood radio w/40w
amp and pioneer speakers too. It's my mini goldwing.
Blaster
the size for me and ugly as hell.
We sold a Helix clone and every one of them we had to change the water pump
seal because the watered down anti-freeze let rust form in the system and
ruin the seal.
Don't want/need a stereo on my bike(s).
Just my two cents worth :)
Sporty
"D0N" <don...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1184536836....@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
D0N
> Yes, I have rode many, I was head mechanic at a scooter shop, To slow for
> the size for me and ugly as hell.
> We sold a Helix clone and every one of them we had to change the water pump
> seal because the watered down anti-freeze let rust form in the system and
> ruin the seal.
> Don't want/need a stereo on my bike(s).
> Just my two cents worth :)
> Sporty
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thats funny that you mentioned the cheap aintifreeze. I had to replace
the water pump outlet cover because the one on the new engine was
broken during shipping. Even thought the engine was new the water pump
had what looked like rusty crap in and around it. I was surpised! I
ended up flushing it a few times putting in prestone so I shouldn't
have any issues.
paul c
Again, I'm not an expert, just taken a few courses, but I'd be wary of
car anti-freeze unless it is recommended at least for aluminum engines.
Anyway, congrats on starting the Helix w/ new engine. I'm sure it
wouldn't have worked without the R-B wire going in to the CDI. I've got
a rusty Helix that I have been threatening to get on the road for two
years. If I ever do, it will be my winter bike for the city as a nice
guy I know gave me a Japanese after-market roof for it, complete with a
windshield wiper as long as my arm. We have very wet winters here.
I often laugh at people who try to make their vehicles different from
everybody else's but I have to admit that the Helix is so rare in these
parts that I get a kick out of its 1980's styling. Don't care about a
radio, but am thinking of getting that sound-track of a Harley and
rigging up a small amp to play it over and over, maybe even try to link
it to the throttle. Plan to hang speakers from the roof.
p
paul c
...
> to find these engines do a search on ebay for "250cc water-cooled
> engine". You'll see a couple people selling them.
If it's decent quality, it seems they give a lot for the money, ie.
looks complete except for the question about the stator/icm wiring. I'm
wondering, is that a Keihen carb with a by-starter choke? Also not sure
if the kilo-watts is same as stock Honda, I'll be interested to hear a
riding report, if you don't mind.
Did they ship any kind of install manual and is there any kind of engine
shop manual available for it?
cheers,
p
RickRussellTX
> Again, I'm not an expert, just taken a few courses, but I'd be wary of
> car anti-freeze unless it is recommended at least for aluminum engines.
My limited understanding is that any glycol-based silicate-free
antifreeze is fine. I'm using Prestone Extended Life in my Helix.
Rick R.
D0N
They really do give you a lot for the money. The nice thing is that
you can ebay all the parts you don't end up using! The radiator, the 2
fans, the CDI, starter selonoid, airbox, hoses, carb etc etc etc.
If you have a helix with a dead engine this is a good alternative to
spending $1000 -$2000 at a local dealership to have your old engine
repaired. My 1996 helix died. I took the engine out of the bike and to
a dealership. It cost me $900 parts & labor just to replace a crank
shaft bearing! And that's with me taking the engine out of the bike
and putting it back in! I figure it would have been another $500 or so
if I just dropped the whole bike off and said "fix it". If you can buy
an entire brand new engine for $900 shipped I think you're better
off.
That is not a keihin carb but it is an exact copy of the carb on the
helix. It even has the auto-bystarter. That little choke thing is a
$70 part from honda!
I decided to use the new carb even though my helix carb was fine. I
had to swap the throttle cable bracket on the carb though.
I will let you know how it goes after today.
D0N
>
> - Show quoted text -
I've got about 150 miles on it so far. It runs great. I checked the
MPG and am getting 64mpg!
Šyamaha_majesty@mbk.cid
|>stator provides. A stator isn't some optional item that you seem to be
|>thinking it is. Lastly you said you have 3 yellow wires coming from the
|>alternator...those ARE your stator wires.
|>What does the company that sold you the engine have to say?
These wires go to the Rectifier/CDI unit then to the starter relay from
the ignition switch Green in the Helix harness, the stator color coding is
different on the Original CN/CH250....