What is a scooter in Florida? The State answers (I think)
Safadinho
the point where it will go fast enough to "as if it where a low end
motorcycle". I wanted to know if I could then ride it on roads where
scooters were prohibited and/or need a motorcycle license. The language
given confuses rather than clarifies!
My question: The comments are I have a 50cc motorscooter. My understanding
is that Florida defines scooters as having less than 51cc and being capable
of 30 mph or less. In truth, nearly all 50cc scooters can cruise at more
than 30 mph. Mine can go 45 mph, others (after changing some parts) up to 50
or 60 mph---in spite of still being 50cc scooters. Therefore, I am
confused. It would seem scooters are legally scooters because they only have
50cc but are not because they go faster than 30 mph. Can you clarify?
The "official" State of Florida answer: Thank you for your email regarding
your request for clarification on the definition of a motor scooter in the
state of Florida. Chapter 320, Florida Statutes, does not provide a
definition for motor scooters. Definitions are only provided for motorcycles
and mopeds as provided below:
Section 320.01(27), Florida Statutes: "Motorcycle" means any motor vehicle
having a seat or saddle for the use of the rider and designed to travel on
not more than three wheels in contact with the ground, but excluding a
tractor or a moped.
Section 320.01(28), Florida Statutes: "Moped" means any vehicle with pedals
to permit propulsion by human power, having a seat or saddle for the use of
the rider and designed to travel on not more than three wheels, with a motor
rated not in excess of 2 brake horsepower and not capable of propelling the
vehicle at a speed greater than 30 miles per hour on level ground, and with
a power-drive system that functions directly or automatically without
clutching or shifting gears by the operator after the drive system is
engaged. If an internal combustion engine is used, the displacement may not
exceed 50 cubic centimeters.
A new directive issued by the Division of Motor Vehicles on February 16,
2004, as Technical Advisory T04-02, states the department will no longer
title or register motorcycles based on cubic centimeters or brake
horsepower. Instead, we will go strictly by the above-cited definitions.
If the vehicle falls under the definition as outlined in the above-cited
statute for a motorcycle, it will be titled and registered as such. If the
vehicle falls under the definition as outlined in the above-cited statute
for a moped, it will be registered only as a moped. If the manufacturer's
certificate of origin states the vehicle is a "motor scooter," the statutes
should be used as a guide to determine whether a title and/or registration
is required.
The only affect a vehicle's cubic centimeters will have on the department's
policies is if the motorcycle is powered by a motor with a displacement of
more than 50 cubic centimeters, the selling dealer is required to be
licensed by the state of Florida
Additionally, when a vehicle is registered as a motorcycle, the operator
must have a valid driver license when operating the vehicle on the roadways
of the State of Florida.
If we can provide any additional information or assistance, please let us
know.
Spencer R. Lower
is classed as a motorcycle, given the information you provided. The size of
the engine does not make a difference.
Zach
Longer answer: It's both a moped and a motor-driven cycle under 50cc.
The only law you need to worry about is the helmet law. For all other laws,
your scooter is considered a moped (under 50cc - automatically a moped). For
the helmet law, if your scooter can get over 30mph, it is a motor-driven
cycle under 50cc, IOW, a motorcycle.
Even with a 70cc kit, you're still in moped territory. Why? Because you
probably won't (re-) register it as a 70cc motorcycle. No cop will know the
difference.
Even fully kitted, keep it off the interstate. It's just not worth the risk.
The legal wording is confusing. Don't sweat it. Treat it legally like a
moped, ride it like a motorcycle, stay off the interstate, wear eye
protection. You'll have no problems with the cops.
BeachBum, with 20 scooters and the same issues.
"Safadinho" <safa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:gDu_b.387$Bu1...@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
SolarFry
Florida does not define scooter.
The definition for scooter is indicative of a GoPed and must ride on the side
of the road away from traffic or on sidewalks like a bicycle.
Florida defines MoPed as any 2 wheeled vehicle under 50cc. A two wheel vehicle
under 50cc does not need insurance, must have a tag (registration), does not
need a motorcycle drivers license but needs a vehicle drivers license. A two
wheel vehicle over 50cc (50cc +) requires a motorcycle license. Nowhere is
there a requirement based on speed.
If you put a 51 - 80cc kit on bike you must get a motorcycle drivers license.
Any vehicle moving slower than traffic (Moped, motorcycle, auto or truck) must
pull to the side and allow traffic to pass.
Get a motorcycle test manual.
In Florida You are riding a MoPed.
Sorry!
>Subject: What is a scooter in Florida? The State answers (I think)
>From: "Safadinho" safa...@bellsouth.net
>Date: 2/23/04 4:56 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <gDu_b.387$Bu1...@bignews3.bellsouth.net>
Bryce Ludwig
news:gDu_b.387$Bu1...@bignews3.bellsouth.net:
> Any lawyers out there understand this? I am souping up my Aprilia
> 50cc to the point where it will go fast enough to "as if it where a
> low end motorcycle". I wanted to know if I could then ride it on
> roads where scooters were prohibited and/or need a motorcycle license.
> The language given confuses rather than clarifies!
>
> My question: The comments are I have a 50cc motorscooter. My
> understanding is that Florida defines scooters as having less than
> 51cc and being capable of 30 mph or less. In truth, nearly all 50cc
> scooters can cruise at more than 30 mph. Mine can go 45 mph, others
> (after changing some parts) up to 50 or 60 mph---in spite of still
> being 50cc scooters. Therefore, I am confused. It would seem scooters
> are legally scooters because they only have 50cc but are not because
> they go faster than 30 mph. Can you clarify?
>
If your scooter is already registered as a moped, it's not likely that
they will alter that status. Typically once something is registered, it
is registered. Kansas has very strict guidelines on what is a moped
(pedals don't have anything to do with it) but for a long time they
would register anything 50cc as one. Well, basically the rules here
state that a moped must be 130cc or under, go no faster than 30, and
have 3.5bhp or less. Most 50cc scooters now only meet 2 of those, and
that is only if they are restricted. Derestricted ones meet the
displacement only. In my county they still seem to be registering 50s
as mopeds even if they are derestricted. They said that anything that
doesn't meet the requirements will now have to be registered as a
motorcycle, anything already registered is grandfathered in whether or
not it meets the rules.
--
Ciao,
Bryce Ludwig
2003 Peugeot Looxor 150
Steve Wilbur
Stay off Interstates and US Highways.
Get insurance.
Wear a helmet.
Do those thing, and odds are real good you will be legal with your 50cc scooter.
Safadinho
fast scooter. Especially in Miami, where the roads mix drivers who cannot
see well (our retired folks), love to be rude (our local Yankee fans) and/or
grew up driving in countries where turn signals were never explained. Hope
I haven't offended half the board with that summary!
I think the comment about it being registered as 50cc and, even post op as a
70cc creature, the cops aren't going to check under the fairings is
probably "right on target". My confusion is that if a radar gun catches me
doing 65 mph, will they still believe it is a scooter? Or hit me for riding
a motorcycle without a motorcycle endorsement?
I guess I won't know until/unless it happens...
"Zach" <res6obg...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:kZw_b.1254$921...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
Spencer R. Lower
Actually, if the law is as you posted, you can be sure. It's really pretty
easy to interpret. Don't be misled into believing it is a moped just
because many other states lump small scooters in that class. You were right
to research the laws of your own state. With what you have provided, in
Florida, :
"> Section 320.01(28), Florida Statutes: "Moped" means any vehicle with
pedals to permit propulsion by human power, ...".
Nothing following that clause allows any vehicle without pedals to be
classified as a moped. The rest is there to distinguish mopeds from
bicycles and tricycles, or to reclassify a moped as a motorcycle if it can
go over 30mph on level ground, another reason you may be confident your
scooter is classified as a motorcycle.
Further, "Section 320.01(27), Florida Statutes: "Motorcycle" means any motor
vehicle having a seat or saddle for the use of the rider and designed to
travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground, but
excluding a tractor or a moped."
Now that we have determined it's not considered a moped in Florida, the
only question remaining is, "Is it a tractor?".
I don't think you need to worry.
Clear now?
Charles Pisano
tell someone different. I live in Florida and my Malaguti 50 cc is
titled and billed as a moped even though I can get up to 45 mph. And
I'm not going to tell anyone whom it will matter to.
CP
Spencer R. Lower
"A new directive issued by the Division of Motor Vehicles on February 16,
2004, as Technical Advisory T04-02, states the department will no longer
title or register motorcycles based on cubic centimeters or brake
horsepower."
tractor. Under the new rules, scooters are motorcycles because they don't
have human powered pedals, even if they go <30mph.
"Charles Pisano" <pisan...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:21493-403...@storefull-3271.bay.webtv.net...
Zach
> Actually, I would be suicidial if I got on a major highway, even with a
very
> fast scooter. Especially in Miami, where the roads mix drivers who cannot
> see well (our retired folks), love to be rude (our local Yankee fans)
and/or
> grew up driving in countries where turn signals were never explained.
Hope
> I haven't offended half the board with that summary!
>
> I think the comment about it being registered as 50cc and, even post op as
a
> 70cc creature, the cops aren't going to check under the fairings is
> probably "right on target". My confusion is that if a radar gun catches
me
> doing 65 mph, will they still believe it is a scooter? Or hit me for
riding
> a motorcycle without a motorcycle endorsement?
>
> I guess I won't know until/unless it happens...
>
Head's up - the following applies only to Florida.
Outstanding summary! LMAO! Yep, you live in Florida.
Even 50's are registered & tagged. One run through the computer, your bike
will come back as a moped. Even if you were doing 65. And generally
speaking, most cops are quite clueless. They THINK they know the law.
They'll run it through the computer, you'll be fine w/o a m/c endorsement.
And please show me a cop who could measure the displacement without a trip
to a mechanic? If they still doubt you, tell 'em you're running jet fuel.
It also depends on the locale. State law says a moped (pedals, <30 mph) must
be plated, and the operator must hold a valid driver's license. Call the
Hillsborough County Sheriff's office. They don't require either one. Get
caught doing 25 mph on a Tomos, they won't ask for license, don't look for a
plate. Fact is stranger than fiction.
BTW, there were a couple of posts declaring anything without pedals a
"motorcycle". I've done plenty of research and spent quite a bit of money
getting a good answer on this one. Here's the breakdown for you:
<50cc, < 30mph, no helmet;
<50cc, 30+ mph, helmet like motorcycles (21+ w/$10k PIP insurance are not
required to wear a helmet).
Registered as <50cc = moped. Period.
Try plating a 50cc as a motorcycle. Then tell us what happened.
Want a truly great example? Look up the Derbi GPR. 49cc crotch rocket. Looks
like a slightly smaller Kawasaki Ninja. It has gears, clutch, the whole
nine. It's a motorcycle, right? Nope. <50cc = Moped.
If it were any other way, there would be a lot of scooter shops out of
business. And a lot of mad business owners giving a lot of hell to some
folks in Tallahassee.
BeachBum
SolarFry
From: "Zach"
Head's up - the following applies only to Florida.
I've done plenty of research and spent quite a bit of moneygetting a good
answer on this one. Here's the breakdown for you:
<50cc, < 30mph, no helmet;
<50cc, 30+ mph, helmet like
motorcycles (21+ w/$10k PIP
insurance are not required to
wear a helmet).
Registered as <50cc = moped. Period.
>>
That's best one I've read so far. The motorcycle handbook agrees with it.
However, the FL motorcycle handbook only segregates as equal to or more than vs
less than 50cc. Helmet requirement is if under 21cc you need helmet. Over 21 no
helmet. No insurance required. There is no speed limit or pedals required.
T'aint no scooter in the motorcycle handbook or law.
If its under 50cc Yer ridin a moped!
Spencer R. Lower
> "motorcycle". I've done plenty of research and spent quite a bit of money
> getting a good answer on this one.
I am sure your research in the past has been diligent. Did you catch the
part of the original post which mentioned the rules changed last week?: "A
mike
>
> Want a truly great example? Look up the Derbi GPR. 49cc crotch rocket.
Looks
> like a slightly smaller Kawasaki Ninja. It has gears, clutch, the whole
> nine. It's a motorcycle, right? Nope. <50cc = Moped.
doesnt aprilia make a similar example?
Steven Buehler
The simple answer is that anything over 50cc is classified under Florida Law
as a motorcycle regardless of how fast it can go; anything 50cc or under,
regarldess of top speed, is classified as a moped and is not subject to
motorcycle licensing requirements (you do have to have a Class "E" operator
license--also known as a regular driver's license--but you don't need the
"MTCY ALSO" endorsement if it's 50cc or less). The speed issue applies
mainly to helmet and insurance requirements.
"Safadinho" <safa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:gDu_b.387$Bu1...@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Bryce Ludwig
$I06.4176871@attbi_s01:
They sure do, the RS50, Peugeot makes the XR6, Gilera (not available in the
US) has one. Lots of companies do because there are racing series for 50s,
125s and 250s.
SolarFry
> Chapter 320, Florida Statutes, does not provide a definition for motor
scooters. Definitions are only provided for motorcycles and mopeds as provided
below:
> A new directive issued by the Division of Motor Vehicles on February 16,
2004, as Technical Advisory T04-02, states the
department will no longer title or register
motorcycles based on cubic centimeters
or brake horsepower. Instead, we will go
strictly by the above-cited definitions.
>>
If the vehicle falls under the definition as outlined in the above-cited
statute for a motorcycle, it will be titled and registered as such.
If the vehicle falls under the definition as outlined in the above-cited
statute for a moped, it will be registered only as a moped. If the
manufacturer's certificate of origin states the vehicle is a "motor scooter,"
the statutes should be used as a guide to determine whether a title and/or
registration is required.
>>
The only affect a vehicle's cubic entimeters will have on the department's
Spencer R. Lower
"SolarFry" <sola...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040225161906...@mb-m15.aol.com...
SolarFry
Stock, my dealer registered mine as a moped. He registers all derestricted
Vino's as Mopeds. So he should know.
My understanding from the motorcycle owner's handbook is that it's a moped.
The pedal requirements was dropped 5 or 6 years ago (mfgrs lobby). They
classify based on engine size only. No speed or pedals is used/required anymore
on the assumption that you will not modify because it's against the law.
I have a motorcycle endorsement which I had to take in 2001 when I had Moskito
125. I replaced skeeto with Reflex 250cc. So a motorcycle endorsement is not a
problem for me.
Most cities call GoPeds Scooters.
I use the Vino more'n the FLEX because it rides much smoother over bumps and my
back cannot handle too much bouncing. Plus it's a lot easier to move around and
jump and go. Flex requires more work.
>Subject: Re: What is a scooter in Florida? The State answers (I think)
>From: "Spencer R. Lower" spe...@commspeed.net
>Date: 2/25/04 6:46 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <10777533...@news.commspeed.net>
Spencer R. Lower
> Stock, my dealer registered mine as a moped. He registers all derestricted
> Vino's as Mopeds. So he should know.
But that was before this, from the original post:
"A new directive issued by the Division of Motor Vehicles on February 16,
2004, as Technical Advisory T04-02, states the department will no longer
title or register motorcycles based on cubic centimeters or brake
horsepower. "
Did the rules change 2 - 16 -2004 or not? If they did, it is now a
motorcycle.
whaleyf
course and get your motorcycle license. For one thing, the course is
a lot of fun, you'll meet some cool people and you'll learn a lot of
great stuff. Then you can drive anything you want, in any state you
want.
SolarFry
>From: "Spencer R. Lower" spe...@commspeed.net
>Message-id: <10777788...@news.commspeed.net>
I think you need an attorney to re-read the passage. It APPLIES ONLY TO
MOTORcycles..
The problem is what you call a scooter is really a Moped so it is not a
motorcycle.
If yours is registered MoPed don't mess with it. let it be. Stop trying to make
it a scooter in the eyes of the State or you will end up limited to riding on
sidewalks..
Zach
OTOH, for those of us in the moped/scooter/motorcycle business, this change
can present major problems. For example, I rent them out (and will be
selling too, but that's beside the point here). If we go with the notion
that our usual scooters (under 50cc, over 30mph) are now considered
motorcycles, does that mean my customers now need a m/c endorsement? If so,
that limits my market to about 15% of what it was prior to the change. I may
as well rent full motorcycles - after all, as a licensed biker, which would
you rather ride? A Kymco People 50, or a Honda Shadow 600?
Personally, if it's got an engine and two wheels, I think you should have a
m/c endorsement. Attend the MSF course, really learn how to ride. For my
customers interested in buying one, I highly recommend it.
Professionally, that ideal would kill my business and plenty of others. It's
professional suicide.
Time to make a few phone calls, light a fire under some legislators.
BeachBum
"whaleyf" <whal...@popmail.firn.edu> wrote in message
news:85f2a3f6.04022...@posting.google.com...
Spencer R. Lower
classified by engine or brakes alone.
I don't need an attorney, I don't plan on moving to FL. Of course, you are
probably grandfathered in, and don't need an attorney either. But don't
mislead others into thinking the rules as of 2-16-2004 are the same as when
you registered your vehicle. The new rules are all there in the first post.
The syllogism is quite simple:
A) 2-3 wheeled vehicles are motorcycles, unless they are mopeds
B) All Mopeds have pedals. (""Moped" means any vehicle with pedals to
permit propulsion by human power,...")
C) Scooters are 2-3 wheeled vehicles without pedals.
Therefore, Scooters are motorcycles,
In FL,
as of 2-16-2004.
************************
whaleyf
> I agree, whaleyf. That "Motorcycle Also" is a great thing to have.
>
> OTOH, for those of us in the moped/scooter/motorcycle business, this change
Now that's something I didn't think about. I can sure see where this
would be a problem for you. And I wouldn't want to see that happen.
However, if you have a bike already, and are worried about what the
cops might do to you if they find out you've souped it up, well, then
that's the time to go get that endorsement. If if you are going to be
riding more than one weekend on vacation you should do it anyway.
SolarFry
>Date: 2/26/04 1:16 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <MJq%b.1656$u6....@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>
>
>I agree, whaleyf. That "Motorcycle Also" is a great thing to have.
>
>OTOH, for those of us in the moped/scooter/motorcycle business, this change
>can present major problems. For example, I rent them out (and will be
>selling too, but that's beside the point here). If we go with the notion
>that our usual scooters (under 50cc, over 30mph) are now considered
>motorcycles, does that mean my customers now need a m/c endorsement? If so,
>that limits my market to about 15% of what it was prior to the change. I may
>as well rent full motorcycles - after all, as a licensed biker, which would
>you rather ride? A Kymco People 50, or a Honda Shadow 600?
>
Depends..
If local speed limit is 4o I'd rather have the People 50. Like in Key West,
Catalina, etc.
Steven Buehler
Apparently the way it works is that if the vehicle does not exceed 2 bhp and
50cc, it is not a motorcycle, is not titled in the State of Florida, but it
is registered. If either of the two items above exceed the state limit, it
is titled and registered as a motorcycle. The Procedures Manual states that
the employee should use the HIGHER figure in determining whether it is
titled (using the example it gave, if it is 48cc but 2.5 bhp, it is titled
even though it does not exceed 50cc.
My suggestion would be to check the Department of Highway Safety and Motor
Vehicles to see if your wheels are titled. If they are titled then they
most likely classified it as a motorcycle, since Mopeds do not require a
title. There is a public database on their web site
(http://www.hsmv.state.fl.us) where you can enter your VIN or Title # (shown
as "TC" on your registration card) to check.
"SolarFry" <sola...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040226100104...@mb-m17.aol.com...
Steven Buehler
49cc Zuma was issued a title, so it appears to not be classified as a moped,
but as a motorcycle.
Looks like I better get my endorsement pretty quickly...
SWB
"Spencer R. Lower" <spe...@commspeed.net> wrote in message
news:10778335...@news.commspeed.net...
Steven Buehler
are required. It makes no mention of speed or horsepower.
When do I need a motorcycle endorsement?
If you wish to operate any two or three wheel motor vehicle with an engine
size of more than 50 cc (section 322.03(4), 322.01(25), Florida Statutes.
While you are not required to have a motorcycle endorsement, you are
required to have a valid Florida driver license to operate two or three
wheel vehicles with an engine size of 50 cc or less on streets and roadways
in Florida. Certain small engine vehicles, like go-peds, motorized
skateboards, and go-carts, cannot be legally operated on public streets,
roads, or highways.
See http://www.hsmv.state.fl.us/ddl/motorcyclefaqs.html.
"Zach" <res6obg...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:MJq%b.1656$u6....@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
David
If you have a 49cc scooter, you need a motorcycle license -- by what I
read of your statutes and otherwise.
A 49cc scooter IS not a moped (unless it is a moped [with pedals]).
Also, most scooters get >2 bhp -- so once again, they're motorcycles.
Know what? Do what I did: Get your damned motorcycle license and
never worry about such piddly little things again.
Once you have your license, you no longer to you have to live in fear
and wonder what if a cop sees me going faster than I'm supposed to be
able to.
Here, the local Yamaha shop was tagging Vinos with "MP" licenses, but
they got in trouble from the PennDOT and from now on, they have to tag
them with "MC" license plates.
If it applies to the Vino, you can be sure it equally applies to your
Malaguti or other "49.9cc scooter". They aren't the fastest things
you know!
I had my Aprilia SR50 Ditech tagged as an "MP", and while I got away
with it, it was technically quite illegal and should have had an "MC"
tag and me, a motorcyle endorsement.
Just get it, and then the world is your oyster (motorcyclewise).
David
mike
> Just get it, and then the world is your oyster (motorcyclewise).
its actually *easier* to take the test on a small 50 with an auto tranny.
i took my MC test in 1987, on an elite80. i whipped around the cones, did
the figure8 forwards and the opposite direction... no problem.
an old dude on a goldwing with dealer placards on it waiting to take the
test behind me was in awe. said he shoulda gone that route to get his
license. didnt stick around to see if he managed to wobble that boat around
the test site.
Zach
BeachBum
"David" <da...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:781dd1b7.04022...@posting.google.com...
Mike Gladu
<res6obg...@verizon.net> wrote:
> David, did you miss the part about bankrupting dealers & rental shops?
>
> BeachBum
I appreciate your predicament, but I have to admit not feeling bad about
scooter (non-true-moped) riders being required to have a license (and,
presumably, riding skills).
The old 49cc scooter = moped interpretation was at best a loophole - one
that was exploited by enterprising folk like yourself in areas where I
guess the police didn't feel it was much of a problem in practice.
Someone in the insurance biz FREAKS when they find out people 'getting
away with' licensing motorcycles as mopeds and roaming freely and
helmetless on unlicensed scooters - they then mobilize, dropping some cash
on the attorney general and ellicit a friendly opinion.
I, for one, would prefer the USA market NOT be flooded with 49cc
throw-away T&G scooters. Instead, we could have the major makers import
more of their better made scooter offerings and encourage more folks to
pursue a motorcycle license and riding experience.
Mike G.
-
SolarFry
>Date: 2/29/04 12:17 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <myfirstname-28...@10.0.1.2>
>
>In article <EKa0c.9188$6K....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>, "Zach"
><res6obg...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> David, did you miss the part about bankrupting dealers & rental shops?
>>
>> BeachBum
>
>I appreciate your predicament, but I have to admit not feeling bad about
>scooter (non-true-moped) riders being required to have a license (and,
>presumably, riding skills).
>
>The old 49cc scooter = moped interpretation was at best a loophole - one
>that was exploited by enterprising folk like yourself in areas where I
>guess the police didn't feel it was much of a problem in practice.
>
>Someone in the insurance biz FREAKS when they find out people 'getting
>away with' licensing motorcycles as mopeds and roaming freely and
>helmetless on unlicensed scooters - they then mobilize, dropping some cash
>on the attorney general and ellicit a friendly opinion.>>
hate to burst your bubble.
Attorney generals do not write laws, they tend to clarify and enforce them.
The money is dropped where money is always welcome: A lobbyist visits your
friendly legislator (representative and state senators). These legislators in
turn create new and fancy laws to protect those that support them $$$$$ to the
detriment of those who do not support ( -$$$$$) them (voters & small
businesses). Money rules! everything else is bs.
Every four or so years we all congregate to elect our favorite best looking
person to represent major corporations, banks and millionaires.
this is the american way.
If you ever get stepped on by a major corp you will find yourself in court
defending your business with your attorney facing a crew of at least 7
attorneys. Your attorney will be swamped with requests for discovery or other
paperwork from 7 attorneys and their 21 assistants.
If in Florida and its a bank, you will be limited by laws that only allow you
to collect only U$ 1,000.00.
Small businesses have very little clout.
Steven Buehler
>
> If you have a 49cc scooter, you need a motorcycle license -- by what I
> read of your statutes and otherwise.
Not in Florida. If it's under 50cc you can use a regular driver's license.
That is the *only* criteria set for whether you need a motorcycle license in
Florida. The bhp and speed issues come up in terms of how it's titled and
registered and whether you need a helmet and/or insurance.
SWB
Mike Gladu
sola...@aol.com (SolarFry) wrote:
> hate to burst your bubble.
>
> Attorney generals do not write laws, they tend to clarify and enforce them.
Exactly my point. Thanks for clearing that up.
Mike G.
-
Charles Pisano
my Malaguti 49 cc phantom when I go to renew my tag in December. I
already have a MC licence but it does not make sense for them to change
a thing with regards to that type of vehicle. I think what they 'are'
going after is the motorized scateboard type of vehicles that the kids
are trying to ride just about everywhere these days.
One 13 year old recently got killed on one in Palm beach couty in Jan.
CP
PWB
news:Wu40c.415144$I06.4610625@attbi_s01...
Amen to that.
Funniest thing I saw when I rode my driving test waaaay back in the day,
when I had my first motorscooter (a PX150 Elestart), I had the same
experience. I whipped through the various components of the driving test
without any problems, while some poor dumb bastard was on a big ol' Hawg,
and sat there gape-mouthed at how easily I finished the test with a minimum
of points assessed against me. I watched him go through the cones/etc and
utterly blow it his first time through. (This was in PA in the mid-80s.)
Bring us forward to the present day, or at least a year or so ago, when I
rode to qualify for my endorsement. This time, I was on a Yamaha TW200, and
it was just as easy... but I'm sure that had I been on a People 50 or some
other similar TnG scoot, it would've been utterly, laughably easy to
qualify.
On a completely irrelevant note, I saw the funniest thing while fueling up
my gas-hogging SUV yesterday afternoon... some poor dumb schlub was riding
one of those electric-powered "scooters" -- you know, the cheap Chinese
jokes that so many junk shops sell for $300-500? -- and it was hilarious to
watch him reach a STUNNING 8 to 10 mph at wide-open throttle. I *so* wished
I'd been there on my People 150, so I could've pulled alongside him and
asked, "when are you gonna get a real bike?"
<cackle>
PWB
mike
> On a completely irrelevant note, I saw the funniest thing while fueling up
> my gas-hogging SUV yesterday afternoon... some poor dumb schlub was riding
> one of those electric-powered "scooters" -- you know, the cheap Chinese
> jokes that so many junk shops sell for $300-500? -- and it was hilarious
to
> watch him reach a STUNNING 8 to 10 mph at wide-open throttle. I *so*
wished
> I'd been there on my People 150, so I could've pulled alongside him and
> asked, "when are you gonna get a real bike?"
oh, thats so mean... reminds me of the time back in '87 i was heading to
school on my elite 80, and some jackass on a brand new honda hurricane
pulled up and told me something similar.
Steven Buehler
> oh, thats so mean... reminds me of the time back in '87 i was heading to
> school on my elite 80, and some jackass on a brand new honda hurricane
> pulled up and told me something similar.
.... at which point you reply, "aren't you a little late getting back to Jr.
High?"
SWB
Steven Buehler
"Charles Pisano" <pisan...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:479-404...@storefull-3275.bay.webtv.net...
In Florida it's illegal to ride one of those on public roads, because they
are not registered as motor vehicles. The only place you can legally ride
one is on your own private property. There's an "education" campaign on the
HSMV web site with a 30-sec. PSA concerning this.
You also can't ride one on the sidewalks, because it has a motor.
SWB
PWB
Hell, people did that to me all the time back in '85 and '86, with the
Vespa, and I occasionally get the same sort of smartassed remarks today with
the Kymco.
You have to admit, though, that one should NOT be riding a 10mph electric
"scooter" on the street, yes? That's what this schmuck was doing, and it
was holding up automobile traffic.
PWB
SolarFry
you have a horn or bell to warn peds. It's illegal on the street everywhere
that I know off (unless crossing the street). most cities treat them as
bicycles. Others want nothing to do with them.
Usually cities with lots of rich kids allow them on sidewalks and curbside on
side streets but not on streets with a speed limit over 35MPH.
Cities without rich kids don't allow them anywhere.
The power of $$$$$$$$$
>Subject: Re: What is a scooter in Florida? The State answers (I think)
>From: "Steven Buehler" ste...@sanctuaryweb.org
>Date: 3/1/04 7:52 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <cVQ0c.175751$jH.15...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>
Steven Buehler
> Depends on the city. Some cities it's legal to ride them on the sidewalk
if
> you have a horn or bell to warn peds. It's illegal on the street
everywhere
> that I know off (unless crossing the street). most cities treat them as
> bicycles. Others want nothing to do with them.
>
> Usually cities with lots of rich kids allow them on sidewalks and curbside
on
> side streets but not on streets with a speed limit over 35MPH.
It's not city ordinace; it's by state laws of Florida--if it is not human
powered, it is not allowed on sidewalks, with the only exception being
"personal convenience vehicles".
Steven Buehler
to ask questions, and these are the answers I got. Scooters are a "gray"
area in Florida Law, because they are not by legal definition mopeds, but
they are legally motorcycles only for registration purposes and not for
driver's license purposes.
The key item to look at is your bike's Manufacturer Certificate of Origin.
By Florida law you should have gotten a copy when you bought your bike. On
that certificate is indicated the displacement of the engine. If the
displacement is 50cc or less, you do *NOT* need a "Motorcycle Also/Only"
endorsement on your driver's license, regardless of how fast it goes or how
it is otherwise built. The engine displacement is the *sole* determining
factor of whether you need the motorcycle license to ride it. The other
items mentioned (whether it can exceed 30 mph, whether it is over 2 bhp,
etc.) is used solely for determining whether the bike gets registered as a
motorcycle or as a moped. For most modern scooters without the pedals, they
are not mopeds unless the certificate of original explicitly states that it
is a moped, so they are registered as "MC" (motorcycles) with an "MS" (motor
scooter) body type. However, the requirements for registration and the
requirements for license endorsements are not identical.
They also told me that if the certficate for the bike shows a displacement
of 50cc or less, you will *NOT* be allowed to take the skill test on it at
the Driver's License office. No fewer than two employees at the office
told both these items, and while the employee said that 50cc's and greater
require the endorsement, the actual statute states that 51cc's or more
require the endorsement. If there is any doubt as to the engine size, they
will check the Certificate.
Keep in mind, that even though your bike might be identified as a "50cc"
bike, it may actually be 49cc on the Certificate of Origin. The engine
displacement I would assume is done that way intentionally so there is no
doubt that it's under 50cc.
Lastly, you have to obtain the instruction permit first before you can test
for the actual license (otherwise you can't legally ride your >50cc bike to
the Driver's License Office to test on it, and you'll need a learning permit
anyway if you're taking the safety courses). The permit lasts for 60 days
and can be renewed up to five times. If you come to the Driver's License
office for the endorsement the first question they will ask you is "do you
have a permit?".
My suggestion: Take the written exam and get the instruction permit, then
pay the $250 - $300 for the motorcycle safety course (since you use their
cycles, you don't need one of your own), and then take the waiver card to
the Driver's License office to get your endorsement with no further testing.
Mike Gladu
Buehler" <ste...@sanctuaryweb.org> wrote:
BTW - a bicycle is considered a "vehicle" in all 50 states, and allowed to
ride in the street and take a lane like any other vehicle. Most of the
same rules for motor vehicles apply, except for a few special restrictions
(ie; no riding on Interstates) and allowances (filtering at lights, no
minimum speed, etc.).
One can also ride a bicycle on the sidewalk in many places, but not all. A
horn, bell or vocal warning requirement for riding on pedestrian paths is
still on the books in many places, as it should be.
IMHO, true mopeds (49cc or less, with pedals, restricted to 20mph) should
have the same rights as bicyclists (including a helmet if local rules
state bicyclists must wear them too) - which means they are allowed to
ride on the street as a legal vehicle as long as they have the required
equipment (reflectors, brakes, lights) without a license.
Anything that has a motor, all the required vehicular equipment
(reflectors, brakes, lights) and can function in traffic without the need
to hold anyone else up (30-35mph without labor) should be licensed,
inspected, insured and treated as a motorcycle.
If someone comes along someday and writes uniform specifications for the
vehicles and drivers that are 'limited' by their speed (unable to travel
with the flow of traffic on the highways/freeways) - then we can end this
argument about the middle ground. Until then, only the bicycle and the
motor-assisted bicycle (moped) are considered uniform enough to warrant
special treatment.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Gladu - Cycling Photojournalist & webmaster of "the 'drome"
Email: mikeatvelodromedotcom Online: http://www.velodrome.com/
================================================================
Charles Pisano
the sidewalk. The police also often look the other way if it is a gas
one.
I was walking down a sidewalk of a main street of our city and 3 cop
cars were congrefated in a park facing the same sidewalk and a 12 year
old went buzzing and smoking past them and me on the sidewalk and did
not get stopped. This happened before another child got killed on one
about 2 weeks later in Palm Beach. I would hope they will treat things
differently now.
CP
SolarFry
>powered, it is not allowed on sidewalks, with the only exception being
>"personal convenience vehicles".
>
City ordinances where I live are in local paper and allow kids to ride electric
scooters on sidewalks if equipped with bels or horns to warn pedestrians. To
cross streets to other sidewalks and to ride on curb or bicycle lanes in areas
with posted speed limits under 35MPH.
Ordinances were posted on newspaper and I may have a copy as I also ride
electric scooters once in while..
Not all is black and white.