Long distance PX200!
Clive Matthews
purchased a second hand PX200E to use on a 2way commute of 92 miles (148kms)
each way.
Using single carriageway roads, this takes 21/4 hours, including fuel stops.
This is 15 minutes more than by car, but much more enjoyable. At first due
to an over rich mixture, I was getting about 50 mpg (5.5l / 100kms).
Following a carb clean up and a long run (the scoot had been used on short
hops previously) the mixture improved as did the performance however fuel
consumption remains disapointing. It has to be said though that I am quite
heavy (****) and the throttle is wide open for most of the time, it has also
been very windy, hence the low average speed. Maximum speed has been an
indicated 75 mph (120kms/hr), usually it holds about 58mph (98kms/hr) and
rarely dips below 50 (80kms/hr)
What have I learnt; well the engine is remarkably smooth for a single, a lot
smoother than I remember my SX200 being, as long as 55 (90)plus is
maintained. In wind, the scooter moves around a lot but it's fine as long as
you don't fight it. I have fitted a Michelin 350 x 10 S1 front tyre instead
of the fitted 90/90 x 10 Hutchinson city, and this has improved steering and
confidence considerably. For improved comfort I will fit a dog leg brake
lever and some larger/softer grips. Horticulteral 2T oil is the same spec
and cheaper than oil with a picture of a bike on the front (see
communication below). The headlamp is terrible but the rest of the electrics
are very reliable. I had to tighten the earth strap on one of the rear
indicator lamps to cure an intermittent fault. The speedo glass can be made
watertight and rattle free with a smear of silicon.
Future plans; I need a tad more power but don't want to sacrifice
reliability which has been (touch wood) outstanding. I am considering a Sito
Plus exhaust as a first step (comments please) and may consider a large bore
kit at a later date.
What oil do other people use in the gearbox? I know that SAE30 is
recommended but it's not exactly common nowadays! Is there an alternative?
To sum up, the Vespa PX200 is indeed up to the job of long distance
commuting. It is ultra reliable, fairly comfortable, moderatly economical
and FUN.
Correspondance with Morris oils:
My local Morris oils dealer stocks GROUND FORCE 2HSS. Looking at the
specification on your web site, it would appear to be ideal for my Vespa.
Would you agree or should I ask him to order a product with a picture of a
motorcycle on it? The scooter is used on long distance/high speed journeys.
Kind regards,
Clive Matthews
Dear Clive
We do make an oil designed specifically for this type of scooter which is
called Scooter Sport 2i
however if this is not readily available then the 2HSS mentioned above will
be perfectly satisfactory
since it is designed for both injector and premix systems.
Regards
Andy Brown
Technical Advisor
CM
david crossan
Clive Matthews
CM
"david crossan" <dc014...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ArA57.5531$Ii1.8...@news1.cableinet.net...
mechanica
myself a 2nd hand px200 and am looking forward to doing some longer trips. I
mostly use it for going to work and back.
Currently it's stock standard as I need it to be reliable. But am
considering putting some "decent" shocks on it BITUBOS and fitting S1's as
well.
I rate the PX it's such a good solid all-rounder, not the fastest thing on
the block. But boogies along when it's all set up right and it's a dry road
(very rare in London)
Thanks for the info.
mech
mike lynch
about, but they wear quick.
Personally I use conti zippy 1's, grip's ok & they have a lot of tread and
last a long while.
Clive Matthews <cl...@medialoft.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9j6h9j$o8g$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
Andy Woodward
>last a long while.
I second that. hey are grippy enough to groundteh footboards on my PX300, and
last as wel as any scoter tyre I've used. Handling is good and wet weather
perfomrance is excellent. Having said that, the ONE BIG PAIN of thisese things
is that they're tubless only, making changing tyres a RIGHT BASTARD cos tehy
have teh tight4st beads I've evercome across. So I'll be trying out tube-type
Metzeler ME12s when my current Contis wear out. I'll let 3everyone know how
htey preform, and being tube-type, tyou can change tyres with bare hands.
Has anyone used ME1s on their PX?
>> Following advice from this newsgroup (thanks Henrick, T5 and others) I
>> purchased a second hand PX200E to use on a 2way commute of 92 miles
>(148kms)
>> each way.
Rear tyres will last you 2500 - you're going to get thru rather a lot......
>> hops previously) the mixture improved as did the performance however fuel
>> consumption remains disapointing.
It will. These things eat fuel :( Mine does 65mpg on agood day in summer (UK
gallons) and 55mpg in winter.
>> been very windy, hence the low average speed. Maximum speed has been an
>> indicated 75 mph (120kms/hr), usually it holds about 58mph (98kms/hr) and
>> rarely dips below 50 (80kms/hr)
Your's is way faster thean mine. Mine barely creeps above 60 flat out. Andc
that's running synthetic oil and a Sito Plus exhaust. Stock it would only do
about 58 flat out.
>> maintained. In wind, the scooter moves around a lot but it's fine as long
>as
>> you don't fight it.
They repsond VERY fast to slightlest steering inputs. So conversely to a
motorcyckle, try to do mosty of your stttering with your body and put as
little as possible tru the handlebars.
> I have fitted a Michelin 350 x 10 S1 front tyre
>instead
>> of the fitted 90/90 x 10 Hutchinson city, and this has improved steering
>and
Nice tyre. Conti Zippy 1s are cheaper, last 50% longer and grip as well.
I got 1500 miles from an S! on the rear, (compared to 2500 for a Conti) but
they're a good tyure for teh front, where they should last 10,000, like my
last one did.
>> lever and some larger/softer grips. Horticulteral 2T oil is the same spec
>> and cheaper than oil with a picture of a bike on the front (see
>> communication below). The headlamp is terrible but the rest of the
DONT save on oil. With your use, you'd be better using fully suyth or at least
emi synth oil - expensive as it is. With a 2 stroke, engine life and
reliability is completely dependent on hte oil. DONT compromise - good oil is
hte chepest maintainance you can do. I do a fair mileage and a lot of that is
on full thrittle, and I prefer to use fully synthetic, made cheper by buying
it by hte gallon. Buy in bulk - at your mileage, you'll get thru it like water
anyway, and you save a lot by buying in bulk.
>> Future plans; I need a tad more power but don't want to sacrifice
>> reliability which has been (touch wood) outstanding. I am considering a
>Sito
>> Plus exhaust as a first step (comments please) and may consider a large
The Sito doesnt make a lot of difference to your top speed, but increases eht
midrange, makeing overtaking, headwinds andlong hills safer cos it'll hold
traffic speeds more easily. The big advantage ofteh Sito is that you can
treplace teh rear tyre without droipping teh exhaust, like you have tio with
expansion chamber designs. With your mileage, you'll be replacing teh rear
tyre rather regularly.....
>> What oil do other people use in the gearbox? I know that SAE30 is
>> recommended but it's not exactly common nowadays! Is there an alternative?
It is almost exactly identical to Hypoid90 gear oil, which is available
anywhere.
Clive Matthews
I would reiterate that I did quite a bit of research before selecting this
semi synthetic 2T oil. It is the same spec as the best 'motorcycle' specific
oils i.e..API TC+, JASO FC, ISO-EGD. I also checked with the oil company,
who agreed to it's suitability. It isn't a cheap option at around £18 for 5
litres but is less than the (I suspect identical) product with a picture of
a bike on the front.
With regard to Hypoid EP 90, I would agree that it is of similar viscosity
to SAE30 but my concern is that it is designed to do an entirely different
job. My inclination at present is to use a modern 10W/40 engine oil in the
gearbox. I would very much welcome a debate on this subject. What do others
think?
CM
"Andy Woodward" <a...@aber.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:99649584...@dyfi.aber.ac.uk...
Andy Woodward
>to SAE30 but my concern is that it is designed to do an entirely different
>job. My inclination at present is to use a modern 10W/40 engine oil in the
>gearbox. I would very much welcome a debate on this subject. What do others
>think?
Erm....It's going to be used in a gearbox, not an engine......The SAE 30 is
the compromise, not the Hypoid 90. I'd guess in hte 40's Vespa simply told
folk to use teh same oil for teh gearbox as they used in hte premix, and have
never bothered changing this.
My guess would be that Hypoid 90 would do teh job better since that's what its
designed for. I certainly had no qualms about filling up my box with Hypoid
90.
Clive Matthews
The problem I have is that Hypoid oils are designed to stick to large
spinning gears such as in diffs and final drives - what will it do to a
clutch?
It's also not very good (due to it's surface tension) at penetrating. How
many of my frugal horses will hypoid remove and will it spoil the already
clunky character of the gear change.
Please don't think that that, I'm arguing because I think I know better - I
don't. I just want to be sure of doing the right thing. I thought that I
read somewhere that Hypoids were not recommended for Vespa gearboxes but I
could well be wrong.
Thanks again for your experience, that's what makes these postings so useful
Kind regards
CM
"Andy Woodward" <a...@aber.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:99656451...@dyfi.aber.ac.uk...
Andy Woodward
>read somewhere that Hypoids were not recommended for Vespa gearboxes but I
>could well be wrong.
If this *is* the case, I'd be interested to hear more of it too.
BWRider
purposes.
The numbers represent the thickness of the oil and how it flows. The lower
the number, the thinner the oil and the more easily it flows.
When an oil have two numbers, such as 10W-30, that means it's a
"multiviscosity" or "multigrade" oil that's effective over a range of
temperatures, as opposed to, say, SAE 30 weight, which has only one
viscosity or grade.
The first number, 10, is an index that refers to how the oil flows or
circulates through the engine at low temperatures. The second number, 30,
refers to how it flows or circulates at high temperatures. A 5W-40 motor oil
would be thinner and flow better at lower temperatures because 5 is lower
than 10. It would be thicker and not flow as well at high temperatures
because 40 is higher than 30.
The 10 means that the oil behaves as a single grade SAE10 oil would at
0 degree centigrade (freezing point of water)
The W stands for winter.
The 30 means that the oil behaves as a single grade SAE30 oil would at 100
degree centigrade (boiling point of water) (it's the temperature we are
interested in for Scooters use)
The 30 at the end is the same GRADE as the old SAE30...it has not changed
over the years. Higher the last number thicker the oil.
Years ago oils didn't have the "10W" label beacaude they were "single"
viscosity oil, they had less detergent and
were breaking down faster... But modern oils with the "10W" in front still
are SAE equivalent.
SAE 30 = 10w30
SAE 40 = 10W40 etc.
Hypoid90 is much thicker oil roughly equivalent but not exactly the same as
SAE90,the Number is the weight of the oil.Hypoid90 is used usually in car
manual transmission or rear transaxle... I would not substitute hypoid90 for
SAE 30 in my scooter final trans if the owner manual recommends SAE30 as it
is far from being equivalent...10W30 is closer or even 5W30 could be used
because we are only dealing with the "hot" last number on the scooter not
the "winter" cold first number before the W because it is irrelevant to
scooters.
Hope this helps some.
Rick.
"Clive Matthews" <cl...@medialoft.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9k4b3u$see$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
Andy Woodward
>SAE90,the Number is the weight of the oil.Hypoid90 is used usually in car
Erm. Not exactly. As I understand it, the Hypoid ratings are not similar to
the SAE ratings. Hypoid 90 is much closer in viscosity to SAE30 than SAE90!!!
Which is why it shouldnt be much of a problem using it in teh Vespa.
Clive Matthews
Andy Woodward
The front brake on Vespas is dangerously crap, cos teh cable runs thru 4 right
angles to fit cosmetically inside teh bodywork. If you make a bracket for the
front mudguard and a hole in teh head stock, you can run the cable outside teh
bodywork in a smooth curve and massively improve teh effectiveness of your
front brake so its as good as any other motorcycle instead of being a sick
joke.
mike lynch
Maintain it OK.
Anything not lubed properly makes the brake seem crappy.
Lube the following, brakeshoe pivots & cam but lightly. Remove can to lube
its pivot & replace.
The cable must be in good condition, or replace it.
Lubes used are the following, cables use gearbox oil via an oil can. The
brake shoes I use castrol
MS3 grease. You could use copper grease.
Andy Woodward <a...@aber.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:99674885...@dyfi.aber.ac.uk...
Andy Woodward
>Maintain it OK.
>Anything not lubed properly makes the brake seem crappy.
>Lube the following, brakeshoe pivots & cam but lightly. Remove can to lube
>its pivot & replace.
>The cable must be in good condition, or replace it.
>Lubes used are the following, cables use gearbox oil via an oil can. The
>brake shoes I use castrol
>MS3 grease. You could use copper grease.
I have no idea how you've managed that. I had the bike into teh shop many
times after I bought it new for tehm to replace pretty much everything trying
to get that damned brake working. I have presure-lubed the cables, cleaned
and lubed all the pivots, soaked teh shoes in degreaser, fitted racing shoes,
and to little avail.
What cables are you using> The normal Vespa ones stretch and have huge
friction losses at all teh sharp bends. It was very noticeable that as soon as
I ran the cable outside the bodywork when doing some work inside hte headset,
I could lock teh front wheel up on a dry road from 30mph. Normally it will not
lock under full pull even in teh wet at anything above about 10mph! So I have
to conclude that the main problem is teh run of teh cable.
But I'm very interested to hear that it IS possible somehow to make teh
buggers work as stock! Although how baffles teh hell out of me :(
Clive Matthews
initial application it has good bite and feel, however the onset of fade is
very quick to rear it's head. I have found that (unlike a 'conventional'
motorcycle) the rear brake is responsible for about 50% of the stopping
power.
I cleaned out the dust from my drum to prevent 'grabbing' in damp
conditions, and 'broke the glaze' by rubbing round the inside of the drum
with emery cloth. It's interesting that the better the tyres, the worst the
brakes seem!
Another braking trait of the single leading shoe brake, is that it doesn't
work in reverse. I know, you're all thinking 'who rides a Vespa backwards?',
well I sometimes put the scoot in the back of a truck and use the front
brake to steady it down the ramp.
CMnews:99717401...@dyfi.aber.ac.uk...
Andy Woodward
>initial application it has good bite and feel, however the onset of fade is
>very quick to rear it's head. I have found that (unlike a 'conventional'
>motorcycle) the rear brake is responsible for about 50% of the stopping
>power.
I suspect its not so much fade (cos it dodnt happen when I had hte cable
routed in mid air om a smooth curve outside the bodywork) but cable stretch.
If you grab teh thing as fast as you can in a way that would be suicidal on
a motorbike, it comes on harder than if you progresively squeeze it,
suggesting that the grab overcomes friction better to get tehj brake on
harder. But then the cable relaxes a little :(
So. I'll try completely cleaning and relubing eveything once more next
service, and then if^H^Hwhen this doesnt work, I'll be drilling a hole in teh
headset, running the cable outside teh bike to a bracket bolted to the front
mudguard and plucking up teh courage to tell my insurance company I've
modified teh brakes.........
mike lynch
grease the brakeshoe
pivots, the actuating cam faces AND the cam where it pivots in the
backplate. Be sparing with the grease. use something like Casrtol MS or
coper grease. for the cable i use the gearbox oil, from an oilcan. My PX200
has a very pokey front brake, it will virtually do stoppies. It nearly did
when I had to do a crash stop to avoid a canned lemming ( idiot in a car )
at 40mph..news:99674885...@dyfi.aber.ac.uk...
Andy Woodward
>grease the brakeshoe
>pivots, the actuating cam faces AND the cam where it pivots in the
>backplate. Be sparing with the grease. use something like Casrtol MS or
Been there, done that. It meerely erduced teh inadequacy of teh brake a bit,
and temporarily
>coper grease. for the cable i use the gearbox oil, from an oilcan. My PX200
>has a very pokey front brake, it will virtually do stoppies. It nearly did
>when I had to do a crash stop to avoid a canned lemming ( idiot in a car )
>at 40mph..
Yes. Of course all brakes should be amintained. But with the vespa front,
you're always working against teh huge dsiadvantage of all hte kinks teh cable
runs thru so even teh slightlest inmperfection in lubrication (like actaully
using hte bike outside so it gets dirty.....) will f**k up teh brake.
MOst bikes are much lesssensitive to this cos hteir cables are run in teh
fewest and smoothest curves. Each curve makes more friction in teh cable.
Look at how fierce the rear brake is. This uses all thesame
components as teh front brake, but rund a thicker cable in a straight line.
This will work fiercely even if you dont even lok at it fr years. The cable
run at teh front of Vespas is a major design flaw, compromising function for
cosmetics. You MAY jyust be able to bring it up to adequacy with perfect
maintainance, but it wont stay there long. And personally I dont want to have
to strip the brake down vcmpletely every week (I do highish mileage).
Stoppies? I dont think so with all teh wieght of teh bike at teh back. In my
personal expereince of running teh brake cable in a smooth curve, teh front
wheel locks well before you get to a stoppie exactly cos of teh wieght
distribution. The front brake becomes as fierce an any other bike with a front
drum, but stoppies? Not with that weight distribution.
mike lynch
i've had it from new 1997 P reg. At my last overhaul I replaced the shoes,
again with what I could get from the dealer. the first ones were too small,
put them on the pivots & they misaligned on the cam. I took them back, the
next ones they gave me fitted. When my front brake seemed rubbish the cable
was on its way out. Pull out the split pin then the pin on which the cable
clamp mounts onto the brake lever on the drum. Pull the brake lever with one
hand & the other end with the other hand. Everything should be real smooth &
friction free. All the cables I used were 2 part, there was a brakelight
switch in the headset. Note there is a PTFE ( teflon ) sleeve projecting
from the bottom end by the backplate. If the sleeve moves with the inner, or
cannot be seen replace the whole thing. I have found over the years that You
should change the front brake & speedo cables completely,
new iners are a waste of time. damage to the outers is the problem, down by
the front wheel. The rest
inners or complete as you see fit. I have a set of nylon cables, gears &
clutch from Taffspeed. I might fit then next year. For changing cables see
http://www.netspace.net.au/~wfdonald/vespa.html
Andy Woodward <a...@aber.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:99717401...@dyfi.aber.ac.uk...
Andy Woodward
>clutch from Taffspeed. I might fit then next year. For changing cables see
I tried teh Taffs for the front brake. They are not a lot of use cos hte
radius if the bend the front cable goes thru after leaving the fork is too
tight for em and teh nylon casing splits. Nice cables, but not for the fronmt
brake. They didnt make a lot of difference anyway even before tehy cracked.
Andy Woodward
>has a very pokey front brake, it will virtually do stoppies. It nearly did
>when I had to do a crash stop to avoid a canned lemming ( idiot in a car )
>at 40mph..
What speed can you lock the front wheel from on a dry road?