Honda aero 125 - GOT THE NUT FROM HELL off
joed
off the clutch bell cover.
Replaced the spring, clutch springs, and clutch weights, cleaned the
bell inner.
It is even more "grabbier" now (the old clutch weights were worn...but
not down to the metal at all).
RESULT: Even better driving now...BUT LOW POWER TO NONE ON A STEEP
HILL (average hills it's ok).
So, it wasn't really the clutch, roller weights, belt after all....but
I DO NOT feel bad about replacing these parts stock. The bike really
drives better/faster with these parts.....even though it didn't solve
the problem I've been trying to tackle..."low power up a steeper
hill".
BUT - AND HERE IS WHY I STARTED A NEW THREAD (sorry) - I just now
understand what you guys meant when asking me "does it rev up high and
not move when hitting a hill?" (duhhh!!)
I thought the answer was yes, but when listening when driving...the
differences are this with flats vs. hills:
- on a flat, the bike kinda slowly/glides up to speed (just a little
abnormally) and you get a constant successively higher rev as it
starts to go faster.
- once it hits a hill, the revs SLOW down dramatically. Hence, low
power up a hill.
I think I now know why you guys suspect the carb and exhaust...does
the above help point to which it might be.
MUFFLER:
I've cleaned the muffler (overnight in berrymans)..but did not try
BBQing it yet. Should I?
It doesn't seem plugged though...I mean on a flat it's running pretty
damn sweet. Don't have thick black smoke...just whiteish smoke upon
cold start - to almost no smoke upon warm up.
I remember trying the scoot with the muffler off as well and feeling
the same power issues (this was before changing the rollers and clutch
however). The neighbors want to kill me if I test with it off
again...I jsut don't have that gut feeling it's the exhaust still.
Carb:
Ok, In looking at the articles of jetting a carb... "I THINK" this is
where my final problem sits.
It seems as though I'm not getting enough fuel fast enough (hence slow
start from dead stop - and possibly no added fuel pumping while
hitting a steeper hill?).
It doesn't rev up full bore RIGHT AWAY if I floor it from a dead
stop...but seems as if the fuel is filling in too slow...and then a
little later (abnormally late) it feels like it floods in...and it
starts to get the needed fuel and rev up.
When going 30 to 50 mph on it = it seems to act perfectly. Fuel gets
moving, the bike is travelling as it should.
From dead stop on a flat = slow revving or slow fuel intake...gets up
to speed a bit abnormally late....but does get going.
On a steeper hill from dead stop = ONLY A SMALL REV. It doesn't rev
UP as I floor it up a hill AT ANY POINT ON THE HILL. It just stays at
a small rev as I SLOWLY get up the hill....
Once I HIT A FLAT PART OF A HILL...IT STARTS TO REV UP WHILE ON IT...
BUT THEN IF IT GETS BACK TO AN INCLINE...IT'LL JUST STAY ON THAT LAST
REV IT GOT ON THE FLAT BEFORE IT
(hope this makes sense).
As SoCal said, this could be the best it can get at this point.
But, I would like to rule out any possible simple/cheap fix to the
stock carb in getting this fixed.
The (stock) carb is:
Venturi dia. - 18mm
Main Jet #105
set to 1 1/2 turns air screw, and a low idle now.
Is it the idle jet?
Needle jet?
Main jet?
...that could use a fix?
thanks for any help,
(Now a non-swearing) JoeD
greggscooter
I weigh 240 lbs.
The parts guy at Italjet N.Y.C., that also sells Malossi after market
power parts, said that I should change to a red (racing) rear pulley spring
when I told him my weight.
It didn't cost much.
I took the yellow spring out that came with the Malossi variator kit, (which
was actually weaker than the stock Derbi Atlantis spring. Who knew? ) and
took it out for a test.
Whoa baby !
What a difference !
Now instead of bogging down below the peak of the power band and creeping
up the hills, having to pull over to let cars go by, it would stay around
8700 to 9,000 rpm, and climb steadily to an indicated 50 mph ( actual 40 )
on most hills.
Though it may be true that you could improve the tuning of your carb, the
red spring is truly going to get you lower gearing on the hills.
Of course, you'll have to take the
big bad nut off again, but it will be worth it !
BTW, I don't think that climbing a hill will make the carb pump more gas, as
long as you have the throttle wide open, it's getting all the jetting will
allow.
You need lower gearing for hills and acceleration which is what the
stronger red spring does as it squeezes the rear pulley halves together
making a lower ratio.
That's my opinion, and you wont know if I'm right or not till you try it !
So there, phtttt.
Greggpa
SoCalMike
> Though it may be true that you could improve the tuning of your carb,
the
> red spring is truly going to get you lower gearing on the hills.
> Of course, you'll have to take the
> big bad nut off again, but it will be worth it !
except were talking an early 80s honda aero, in which case stock is as good
as it gets, since no aftermarket parts are made and stock parts im sure are
getting scarcer.
2 strokes are not known for torque
honda is not known for 2 strokes.
so id say anything else done to it may help it or may hurt it. is it worth
the gamble to risk a seizure? your call. id say anything else would be
pissing in the wind, but it IS a hobby after all :)
Kurt F
Way to bust your nut!
I knew you'd get your nut off once you started playing with your pipe!
Ok.. enough nut jokes ;-)
Joe, from what you describe, you either have the power loss as you suspect,
or your cvt is not working right. I've called up a search list of all your
aero 125 posts over the past month and a half, and reviewed them.
I looked at your pics of the old head parts. The damage likely came from
running with no fan cover. It had serious blow-by down the grooves cut into
the piston/cylinder wall. I see that you fixed the fan cover, shroud, and
got a re-bore. No money wasted there.
What was it that was "jangling" in your cvt case? That could be important.
What did you find was causing your nut to be locked on the shaft? Were the
threads corroded any? Did someone use Loctite?
Ok. We're gonna fix this once and for all. Right here, right now. You've
worked your ass off and only gotten your nut off once out of the deal
(sorry, I can't resist!). I'm gonna ask you to get data on all relevant
power/shifting issues. You have homework to do....
CARB
The carb can rob your power if not tuned right, and we can eliminate this as
the source through plug readings at idle, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, and full throttle.
I want you to read my posts under the threads "Here's a poser" 9/21; and
"Re: adjusting carb settings and airbox" 9/19. This will give you a full
understanding and confidence with carb tuning. It really is simple- the
plug tells all about the carb. Follow my procedure for plug series with a
new plug, and on a flat. Come back and tell me what you get on these plug
chops.
EXHAUST
From what you wrote soon after you bought it, the bike was abused by the
person who ran it without critical cooling elements. It seems also that you
have the stock pipe on. Unlike a 4 stroke, the 2-stroke gets much of it's
power from the pipe. See, without valves, the engine needs to rely on
exhaust pulse reflections in the pipe to act as a closing exhaust valve.
Here's how it works: right after the explosion, the cylinder moves down and
first uncovers the ex. port. The ex. gasses shoot out into the pipe. About
30 degrees of crank later, the intake (transfer) ports open. There is still
some exhaust in the chamber, but most of the pressure has bled down through
the ex. port. The pressure in your crankcase from the lowering piston
pushes fuel/air into the chamber through the tran. ports. This f/a mix
pushes the last of the ex. fumes out, and some of the f/a gets pushed out of
the ex. port behind the ex. The piston has bottomed out and is beginning to
rise again. Just as the piston closes the last of the intake ports, there
is still some ex. port open, and a reflection pulse from the tail section of
your pipe has reflected it's way back up the pipe to the ex. port. This
reflection pulse pushes the f/a mix that got out back into the chamber, just
before the ex. port closes fully. Your engine is now supercharged, since
the pressure of f/a stuffed in your cylinder is greater than that which
could have been achieved by the piston alone. The reflection from your pipe
did this.
The point of all that is: If your pipe has a muffler missing, you will
loose power. If you run without part of your pipe, you will loose power.
If there is a hole in your pipe, you will loose power. If there is a chunk
missing inside of your pipe (ie- an internal baffle or reflecting surface),
you will loose power.
Is there any mechanical damage to your pipe? If you can't tell for sure,
then we'll test out the other systems first.
CVT
I need more data here. I think you have already read the articles about
CVT, as I've asked you to before. Your symptom sounds EXACTLY like what
you'd get with too heavy roller weights and/or too light rear spring, even
though your engine may be giving you factory spec power.
Look in your shop manual's engine specs for engine power. What rpm is your
power rated at(ie- 12hp at 7000rpm; or 15kw at 7300rpm)?
When you are stopped, and goose your throttle gradually, at what rpm does
the clutch start to grab your wheel? When can you feel it just starting to
move?
When running WOT on a flat at max speed, what rpm is that?
When you go WOT at a dead stop, and accelerate on a flat to max speed, tell
me what your rpms do from 0 to max speed. Example, my Cobra 50 would rev up
to 8400 while just starting to take off, it would vary gradually from 8400
to 8000 as the speed picked up to about 40, then it would rev back up to
8700 when it reached top speed of 52.
When you encounter a hill at max speed, how far down would your rpm and
speed drop? Give me a worst-case here... the worst uphill you would drive
into in your area at top speed. Example, my Cobra 50 would bog down to
about 6000rpm and 38mph on my worst case, down from 8700/52 going into it.
My bike would hold 6000/38 all the way to the crest of the hill.
If you get the data on your plug readings, we can rule out your carb as well
as intake leak completely. If you give me the specs on rpm and engine power
above, we can make sure your cvt isn't robbing all your engine's power (like
short handles was robbing you of yours getting that nut off). I know you
last posted that you replaced weights with the stock weights, and your
spring.. was that the stock spring too?
After you read my article on CVT, can you tell me if your movable pulley
faces, both driven and drive, move freely and without binding on their
shafts? Does your drive pulley move in and out of the ramp plate through
your V clips freely without binding? Put some hand-torque on your drive
pulley.. in the direction of belt pull.. does it move freely on it's shaft
and through the V clips then?
--
-Kurt F
King Cobra @ http://www.mopedhospital.com/img/70cc.jpg
"joed" <halfm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7508616b.02092...@posting.google.com...
Kurt F
as your gauge will read, hot or cold?
--
-Kurt F
King Cobra @ http://www.mopedhospital.com/img/70cc.jpg
"Kurt F" <ku...@gloryroad.net> wrote in message
news:uot49oq...@corp.supernews.com...
SoCalMike
>
> Way to bust your nut!
>
> I knew you'd get your nut off once you started playing with your pipe!
>
> Ok.. enough nut jokes ;-)
>
> Joe, from what you describe, you either have the power loss as you
suspect,
> or your cvt is not working right. I've called up a search list of all
your
> aero 125 posts over the past month and a half, and reviewed them.
>
> I looked at your pics of the old head parts. The damage likely came from
> running with no fan cover. It had serious blow-by down the grooves cut
into
> the piston/cylinder wall. I see that you fixed the fan cover, shroud, and
> got a re-bore. No money wasted there.
>
> What was it that was "jangling" in your cvt case? That could be
important.
jangling on the elite150 and helix is caused by the backing plate on the
clutch coming loose. has nothing to do with power loss and can be fixed by
removing, and bending a slight curve into it, then replacing.
joed
cool to:
- BBQ the muffler (just to be sure)?
If so how long (it's a webber BBQ)
- what things to look for in the carb? Jets I may want to try one day
to get more fuel pumping through?
thanks
"SoCalMike" <mikein562...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Hcvj9.553974$UU1.91187@sccrnsc03>...
Lee
> off the clutch bell cover.
>
> Replaced the spring, clutch springs, and clutch weights, cleaned the
> bell inner.
>
> It is even more "grabbier" now (the old clutch weights were worn...but
> not down to the metal at all).
>
> RESULT: Even better driving now...BUT LOW POWER TO NONE ON A STEEP
> HILL (average hills it's ok).
>
> So, it wasn't really the clutch, roller weights, belt after all....but
> I DO NOT feel bad about replacing these parts stock. The bike really
> drives better/faster with these parts.....even though it didn't solve
> the problem I've been trying to tackle..."low power up a steeper
> hill".
>
> BUT - AND HERE IS WHY I STARTED A NEW THREAD (sorry) - I just now
> understand what you guys meant when asking me "does it rev up high and
> not move when hitting a hill?" (duhhh!!)
>
Glad you finally got the point ...
If your revs are low pulling away from standstill or climbing a hill , find
out if the exhaust is actually a stock item, ...from the previous owner or
from the numbers, stamped on the existing exhaust and then cross check the
part numbers with your Honda agent....if it is a different number , it
stands a chance it may be a sport pipe !!!
Your problems sound more like variator weights being too heavy and not
allowing the engine to build up to a higher rev power band to suit the
exhaust pipe before the clutch bites ... the two stroke 150cc is far faster
than the four stroke 150 cc ... 65 / 70mph + .........
Honda have a GOOD name for two strokes, they are used in quite a few
European scoots under licence , even my Honda 50 has France stamped on the
engine casting , the Peugot "P" uses the same engine
Lee.
greggscooter
the use of household lye, or "Drano"
Plug one end of the pipe with a potato well screwed in, then fill the pipe
with lye or Drano solution, a tablespoon to a pint of hot water, wear gloves
and eye protection. It will dissolve the
gunk. Let sit overnight , then pour it out into the toilet. DO NOT POUR IT
INTO A STORM DRAIN. It will poison fish and other critters.
Come to think of it, the whole thing is a bad idea. Forget it.
Gregg
joed
This is cool, thanks for the help again...
but how do I get the readings (RPM) for you? What would I need...and
how expensive is this? How do I use a tachometer (sorry, newbie
question).
God!! a new muffler is going to cost a fortune (after $ spent so far).
How can I tell if she's toast for sure?
I don't think they have lighter roller weights for the aero 125.
I'll check with Honda again.
The origs were flat on each, so I thought the stock would be best.
Man, what ticks me off, is that I almost sent the scoot to honda to
repair the clutch as the tech said it was definitley the clutch when I
took it to them.
It obviously isn't the clutch.
Can you imagine what i would have paid to find that out?
Screw them doing ANY work on my scoots now.
I've orederd new "v" clips as a "just in case" cause they were
cheap...but I don't think we're going to see much difference (hope I'm
wrong).
My compression tester REALLY sucks, so i'll take it down to a garage
and ask if they can test with one of theirs.
My engine specs (as per service manual) before new rebore =
- bore and stroke = 55 x 52.4 mm (2.17x2.06 in)
- displacement = 124 cm3 (7.6 cu in)
compression ratios = 6.7:1
max horse power = 9.5 bhp/7000 rpm
max torque = 1.3 kg-m (8.7 ft-lb)/5.000 rpm
transmission oil capicity = 90cc
cylinder compression = 12.0 kg-m (171 psi)
port timing =
intake Open = reed valve controlled
closed = reed valve controlled
exhuast open = 84 degrees BBDC
exhaust closed = 84 degrees ABDC
scavenge open = 57 degrees BBDC
scanvenge closed = 57 ABDC
Idle speed = 1, 800
** this is before my rebore (see last info on that).
Describing a STEEP hill experience:
- Starting at the base of a steep hill, I'll reach 10-15 rpm MAX...to
almost a crawl depending on steepness.
- If going 35-40 on a flat and hitting a hill...it'll bog down to
about 15-20 depending on steepness of hill (if really steep it'll
CRAWL up the hill
- Hit a flat and you start to hear the engine rev up and speed
increase - but not "quickly" but rather gradually.
- From a dead stop ON A FLAT (at full throttle) it'll get to 35 mph in
about 7-8 seconds (could be a bit more,i'm guesstimating now). This
isn't too good as I don't want that time happening for my wife on a
turn into traffic.
It definitely doesn't jump off the throttle like my Ch150...and I
heard 2-strokes are supposed to be good for this. Hmmmmmm........
What's been fixed and $ spent (and saved):
Bought the aero 125 at $250.00
Honda did:
rebore cylinder - $65.00
Joe did:
- cylinder, rings, pin, head gasket, base gasket, clips = $170.00 or
so
- new brake shoes ($30.00)
- full Carb cleaning ($0.00)
- New final reduction 4-stroke oil replace ($2.00)
- 2 stroke oil resovoire ($10.00 for 2 pints honda 2-stroke)
- New engine shroud (stock honda) = ($50.00)
- Alt fan cover/blower piece (stock honda) = $50.00
- Roller weights (honda stock)= $20.00
- V clips (honda stock)= = $10.00
- Clutch weights (honda stock)= $39.95
- clutch springs (honda stock)= $9.00 for all 3
- clutch driven face spring (honda stock)= $18.95
- new belt (didn't really need it I guess..but what the heck I said)
$70.00
** I don't want to add this up...don't want to see what I've spent on
it ;)
So, I've spent considerably a fair amount on restoring this aero 125
(why?...I dunno...I was having a blast learning how to fix
scoots...and the aero 125 is quite rare in the US...which is both
cool, and NOT cool obviously).
The body is in great shape for the age, all the parts are intact and
nothing too badly ruined.
Plus when someone says.."ahh it's a parts bike" when it LOOKS the way
it does...i said...nope, I'm gonna save her.
I'm almost there i guess.
It's just been a great learning experience (although I'm now bent on
fixing this final problem yet getting low on $ for this scoot).
I've learned that IT'S BEST TO LEARN AND FIX YOURSELF IF YOU AREN'T
LOADED WITH $.
Anyway, I hope you guys can help me finalize this.
Is there anythign I can say to Honda as for them telling me it's the
clutch...and it totally wasn't for the msot part (although it is
grabbier I guess)?
Man, I don't trust any mechanics now that I'm learning this stuff.
JoeD
Kurt F
--
-Kurt F
King Cobra @ http://www.mopedhospital.com/img/70cc.jpg
"joed" <halfm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7508616b.02092...@posting.google.com...
> Ok, whoa you guys.
> This is cool, thanks for the help again...
>
> but how do I get the readings (RPM) for you? What would I need...and
> how expensive is this? How do I use a tachometer (sorry, newbie
> question).
You have a tachometer on the bike, don't you? Next to the speedo?
>
> God!! a new muffler is going to cost a fortune (after $ spent so far).
> How can I tell if she's toast for sure?
Let's not spend that money until we rule out your carb and cvt first.. for
the cost of a spark plug.
>
> I don't think they have lighter roller weights for the aero 125.
> I'll check with Honda again.
> The origs were flat on each, so I thought the stock would be best.
Roller weights are pretty standardized, and we can get to that IF your rpms
show a need for it. Just measure the length of dia of each roller (mine are
16 x 13mm, and I can get them from several vendors)
>
> Man, what ticks me off, is that I almost sent the scoot to honda to
> repair the clutch as the tech said it was definitley the clutch when I
> took it to them.
> It obviously isn't the clutch.
> Can you imagine what i would have paid to find that out?
> Screw them doing ANY work on my scoots now.
I hear THAT!
>
> I've orederd new "v" clips as a "just in case" cause they were
> cheap...but I don't think we're going to see much difference (hope I'm
> wrong).
While mounted on the bike, with the belt out of the way (off), your drive
pulley face should move freely in and out on it's shaft, and within those V
clips, without any resistance. If you feel resistance or "rougher spots" in
it's sliding.. the V clips may be it.. but you really need to do that
youself with close inspection: what is causing the friction?
>
> My compression tester REALLY sucks, so i'll take it down to a garage
> and ask if they can test with one of theirs.
>
Good deal. Just this once, to make sure your bore kit hasn't been hurt in
break-in.
>
> My engine specs (as per service manual) before new rebore =
>
> - bore and stroke = 55 x 52.4 mm (2.17x2.06 in)
> - displacement = 124 cm3 (7.6 cu in)
> compression ratios = 6.7:1
> max horse power = 9.5 bhp/7000 rpm
OUTSTANDING! Your power band is 7000 (with stock pipe), and with 9.5hp, you
should be able to meet or exceed my Cobra's acceleration from takeoff and up
a hill.
> max torque = 1.3 kg-m (8.7 ft-lb)/5.000 rpm
Low end power (at 5000rpm) is good too.
> transmission oil capicity = 90cc
> cylinder compression = 12.0 kg-m (171 psi)
>
> port timing =
> intake Open = reed valve controlled
> closed = reed valve controlled
> exhuast open = 84 degrees BBDC
> exhaust closed = 84 degrees ABDC
> scavenge open = 57 degrees BBDC
> scanvenge closed = 57 ABDC
>
> Idle speed = 1, 800
>
> ** this is before my rebore (see last info on that).
>
>
> Describing a STEEP hill experience:
Joe, I know you are getting tired of hearing this from me, but I really need
the RPM to go with your speeds below. If you will just read your tach while
you do this (don't you have one?), then I can give you MUCH better advice.
I don't want to take you on tours of exhaust pipe chemistry, or buying any
more parts without this more throurough (and cheap) analysis. I'm starting
to fear that your console has no tach. I mean, you know what that looks
like, right? Maybe if you posted a pic of your console for me?
You DO have the power rating for doing much better than the speed you are
getting. Your bike WILL go faster and accelerate much better when we find
the cause. Hang in there!
-Kurt
joed
My compression tester must be for shit.
Damn :(
I better open her up again and check the rings. Re-torque.
I put on a new base and head gasket with this install.
I hope this is all ok.
Would 141 compression really cause a bog to 10 mph up a hill though?
Joed (who has about had it).
SoCalMike
> port timing =
> intake Open = reed valve controlled
> closed = reed valve controlled
maybe the reed valves are worn? just a thought.
Kurt F
--
-Kurt F
King Cobra @ http://www.mopedhospital.com/img/70cc.jpg
"joed" <halfm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7508616b.02092...@posting.google.com...
No, I don't think so. 141 is pretty healthy, even though your manual says
171. It would not be the cause of you bogging down that badly. My
compression went from 135 down to 61 on one of my blown cylinders, and it
caused hard starting... but it still kept speed on a hill (mostly). I
wouldn't waste the time undoing the head at this point.
Why do you seem to resist the carb testing and rpm testing? It is cheap,
and if you're gonna spend more time on the bike, at least do it on something
that will give you useful data... not more trial and error...
Just trying to help.
Kurt
greggscooter
> This is cool, thanks for the help again...
>
> but how do I get the readings (RPM) for you? What would I need...and
> how expensive is this? How do I use a tachometer (sorry, newbie
> question).
I use "Tiny Tach", cost $40.00 plus shipping, has a wire that screws to
the frame for ground and another that wraps around the spark plug wire as
close the the plug as possible. Use mounting tape or velcro to attach it to
your dash panel. I'ts accurate enough to help in chosing cvt parts and
evaluating changes any one mod makes.
They have web site.
Greggpa
joed
No I'm not resisting. In my last message I asked "HOW DO I TEST THESE ITEMS"?
What are the steps What do i need?
I will mark each throttle stage but i do not have a tachometer.
JoeD
"Kurt F" <ku...@gloryroad.net> wrote in message news:<uovd8p7...@corp.supernews.com>...
joed
I need to reexplain.
The only change was a new bore (not much of a larger bore judging by
your responses).
- everything I have is stock. I did not purchase any aftermarket
power kits such as a performance muffler....just stock parts.
- I do not have a tachometer on the aero 125. Just a speedometer,
gas, mileage meter. Light comes on when oil is low, light for bright
lights and trun signal lights.
So sorry I'm not up on the rpm info you need. Would you please
describe how I go about doing this?
Would you please tell me what I should be checking in the carb?
Right now I can only tell you what happens at low throttle, mid
throttle, full throttle...but without the tach readings...but rather a
description as best I can.
*** I do feel SOMETHING is up with the carb. It feels like fuel isn't
getting in fast enough...then when it does get the right amount of
fuel (abnormally late)..then the bike has the fuel to get more power.
Yet that doesn't explain why I get NO MORE THAN LITTLE POWER
constantly when FULL THROTTLE up a hill.
I agree, I should have much better power with this thing.
Sorry I'm new to the tach stuff. I will do the best I can (i fear a
tach is going to cost a lot though....ugh)
thanks again for your patience and help,
Joe
"Kurt F" <ku...@gloryroad.net> wrote in message news:<uov5qq5...@corp.supernews.com>...
Kurt F
a tach on the dash. In fact, I can't imagine not having one.
You can make the carb analysis without the tach. I'll think about the rpm
measurements for awhile (while I'm riding my scoot uphill from the
supermarket with 50 lbs of groceries on board) ;-). Sorry.. picking on
you. The carb checkout will tell you if richness is causing your power
loss. Gotta read the plug, properly run for reading at idle, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2
and full. After you mark your throttle grip and warm her up, the testing
should take you less than an hour.
I'll get back to your post above about the rpm stuff....
joed
I know where they are and how to get it off...but what am I looking
for that tells me the reed valve is bad?
thanks,
Joe
"SoCalMike" <mikein562...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<mQNj9.190163$Jo.66948@rwcrnsc53>...
Kurt F
that no more than a hair of light can be seen between the reed and the
surface it rests on.
--
-Kurt F
King Cobra @ http://www.mopedhospital.com/img/70cc.jpg
"joed" <halfm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7508616b.02092...@posting.google.com...
SoCalMike
>
> I know where they are and how to get it off...but what am I looking
> for that tells me the reed valve is bad?
i have no idea, but on an almost 20 year old 2 stroke honda? ya never know!
im sure someone here knows all about reed valves, and what their function
is.
Kurt F
add-on tach... no where to put it for $40. I had two ideas though:
Ride with your wife. Have her drive the antique, and you drive the CH along
side, using the CH tach, and matching engine tone with her engine as she
tries the initial grab, flat max accelerate, and uphill test runs. And if
your CH doesn't have a tach either, sell both scooters ;-) NOTE: 2-strokes
are designed to run higher rpm than 4-strokes. 7000 on your 2-stroke should
be it's normal operating range.. 7000 on your CH 4-stroke should be at or
near it's red-line.
Carry a tune. Are you musical? Your power band is 7000, according to your
book. If your scoot doesn't rev up past 6000 when you first go WOT from a
stop, and stay above that all through acceleration to max speed, then your
CVT isn't giving your engine a chance to show you if it's got it's power or
not. Your cvt must remain in low enough gear throughout initial
acceleration to allow your engine to operate around 7000. Think about it:
if your cvt is upshifting too quickly, it is like being on a 10-speed, and
trying to start the damn thing off on 5th gear. I don't care how powerful
your legs are, you won't beat me from the line in first gear, upshifting as
my leg power allows. So use the tach on your CH to get familiar with the
tone of 6000-7000rpm. Carry that tune in your head as you drive the Aero.
Just see if your getting that high while taking off, or going too far below
that when encountering a hill.
It's not your compression.
Neither wheel has a brake stuck on. Right?
As Mike suggested, when you check your reed valves, you'll know if it's lack
of fuel charge that's killing you.
When you get your plug readings, you'll know if it's the carb running too
rich that's killing you.
When you get the idea of rpm, you'll know if it's the cvt running too high
gear that's killing you.
Your air filter box is stock, is attached with no leaks, and has no extra
holes drilled into it, other than the manufacturer, right?
When you did your work on the pipe, did any black or rusty metal junk fall
out of it? Does anything rattle around inside of it? Are there any holes
drilled into it not by the manufacturer?
I honestly can't think of a single thing, not mentioned here or examined by
you on prior posts that would give you this grief. I'm pretty sure I've not
overlooked anything, but I welcome the group to check me on that.
The good news is, your problem is in this letter somewhere ;-)
Good night,
Kurt
Lee
> Obvious damage: bent or broken. The reeds should rest on the surface so
> that no more than a hair of light can be seen between the reed and the
> surface it rests on.
>
> --
> -Kurt F
If the reed valve was weak Kurt, ...the engine would run erratic, just
wouldn`t run right, as the reeds would be flapping - popping, spitting
back thru` the carb as it just wouldn`t hold the compression in the crankase
, and, seeing as he is getting good revs on the flat, without reports of
erratic running, IMHO i wouldn`t think that would be the fault ...otherwise
, .....prove it by replacement !!!... i`m well known for being wrong !!
;^}}.
There is another possibility, ...seeing as Joed has had a rebore , the
barrel may not have been replaced properly ...( he`s reading 30lbs down on
piston compression according to the book ....( you`re the expert there Kurt
;^}}. ) ) .....and so may not be giving a full gas seal in the crankase or
head gasket, ....showing, particularly, at low revs - hi load ...
probably; for peace of mind, ...check the torque on the head bolts, if they
take up another part turn you are well on the way to the fault , if not, at
least that has been ruled out ... and keep a record of all the points
checked ....... once again, Kurt is the expert there ......
Is there a way to check crank case compression , other than taking the
barrel off and fitting a new gasket ??? ..........
It`s almost like the scoot is stuck in 3rd and 4th gear ... it should out
accelerate the CH 150 Spacy 4 stroke up or down hill - i had a ch125 Spacy
and my little 1990 Honda Vision 50cc`ped was faster to 45mph......
Lee.
joed
> How to talk rpm without a tach.. hmmm... I don't want to tell you to get an
> add-on tach... no where to put it for $40. I had two ideas though:
>
> Ride with your wife. Have her drive the antique, and you drive the CH along
> side, using the CH tach, and matching engine tone with her engine as she
> tries the initial grab, flat max accelerate, and uphill test runs. And if
> your CH doesn't have a tach either, sell both scooters ;-) NOTE: 2-strokes
> are designed to run higher rpm than 4-strokes. 7000 on your 2-stroke should
> be it's normal operating range.. 7000 on your CH 4-stroke should be at or
> near it's red-line.
Uh Oh...no tach on the Ch150 either.
>
> Carry a tune. Are you musical?
You kiddin? Hehe:) go visit www.joedoriamusic.com
Your power band is 7000, according to your
> book. If your scoot doesn't rev up past 6000 when you first go WOT from a
> stop, and stay above that all through acceleration to max speed, then your
> CVT isn't giving your engine a chance to show you if it's got it's power or
> not. Your cvt must remain in low enough gear throughout initial
> acceleration to allow your engine to operate around 7000. Think about it:
> if your cvt is upshifting too quickly, it is like being on a 10-speed, and
> trying to start the damn thing off on 5th gear. I don't care how powerful
> your legs are, you won't beat me from the line in first gear, upshifting as
> my leg power allows. So use the tach on your CH to get familiar with the
> tone of 6000-7000rpm. Carry that tune in your head as you drive the Aero.
> Just see if your getting that high while taking off, or going too far below
> that when encountering a hill.
Ok, if it's the CVT...and I changed the roller weights, verified the
face is moving in and out as I throttle, what else could it be?
I am going to replace the "V" clips tomorrow as they should arrive
then.
(and yes, I see the driven face move forward with 1/4 throttle
even...does this mean it's moving too early...taking the power away??)
It really moves forward at 1/2 throttle and of course full.
If so i hope the new v clips solve this.
How much grease should be in that movable drive face anyway (around v
clips and roller ramp). Just a thin layer..right?
>
> It's not your compression.
Ok, cool. Didn't want to go through that again. But shouldn't it be
170 as stated in the book? Hope I did it all right.
>
> Neither wheel has a brake stuck on. Right?
No, I checked that too.
>
> As Mike suggested, when you check your reed valves, you'll know if it's lack
> of fuel charge that's killing you.
I'll check the reed valves again. i once took a look at them when I
first was diagnosing. They seemed fine, sturdy and open valves. Not
bends..but I'll check again.
>
> When you get your plug readings, you'll know if it's the carb running too
> rich that's killing you.
Well, I checked the plug at full throttle tonight. Based on the plug
charts I saw on the web suggested by you guys...it's acting perfectly.
I'll check the plug at 1/4 and 1/2 tomorrow too.
But...everything looks good as for the plug (got 3 of them).
>
> When you get the idea of rpm, you'll know if it's the cvt running too high
> gear that's killing you.
Oh great..no tach...no knowing about my RPMs (not sure I want to spend
$40.00 more right now.
>
> Your air filter box is stock, is attached with no leaks, and has no extra
> holes drilled into it, other than the manufacturer, right?
Stock air box. no holes in it..but it does have a small section of
bent lip on the bottom (not bad enough to be a problem I must
say...just a tiny bend out...but the gasket is still intact too).
The air filter is dry. I did nOT soak it in 90w gear oil as stated
in manual this time.
However, I did do this not long ago as a test. No difference.
i have a tightening band around the connector to carb just to secure a
good seal.
>
> When you did your work on the pipe, did any black or rusty metal junk fall
> out of it? Does anything rattle around inside of it? Are there any holes
> drilled into it not by the manufacturer?
Not much came out but the berrymans. No rattling. no holes.
What's the weight of a working stock aero 125 pipe? Mine is somewhat
heavy..but it looks as if it should be that way.
>
> I honestly can't think of a single thing, not mentioned here or examined by
> you on prior posts that would give you this grief. I'm pretty sure I've not
> overlooked anything, but I welcome the group to check me on that.
>
> The good news is, your problem is in this letter somewhere ;-)
Man, I dunno. i hope you're right. but it's looking to be something
mysteriously wrong here.
I wish one of you were in the seattle area so i could have you take a
peek at her.
thanks, let's see if we get it
JoeD
Kurt F
--
-Kurt F
King Cobra @ http://www.mopedhospital.com/img/70cc.jpg
"Lee" <leemo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cJgk9.7986$lS4.70...@news-text.cableinet.net...
>
> "Kurt F" <ku...@gloryroad.net> wrote in message
> news:up2g4dq...@corp.supernews.com...
> > Obvious damage: bent or broken. The reeds should rest on the surface so
> > that no more than a hair of light can be seen between the reed and the
> > surface it rests on.
> >
> > --
> > -Kurt F
>
>
> If the reed valve was weak Kurt, ...the engine would run erratic, just
> wouldn`t run right, as the reeds would be flapping - popping, spitting
> back thru` the carb as it just wouldn`t hold the compression in the
crankase
> , and, seeing as he is getting good revs on the flat, without reports of
> erratic running, IMHO i wouldn`t think that would be the fault
...otherwise
> , .....prove it by replacement !!!... i`m well known for being wrong !!
> ;^}}.
Lee, I'm glad you are here. I don't have experience with what a faulty reed
does to an engine. This is where book-knowlege and sense are not enough
without experience (which you were kind enough to share). And I am an
expert on THAT shit!
>
> There is another possibility, ...seeing as Joed has had a rebore , the
> barrel may not have been replaced properly ...( he`s reading 30lbs down
on
> piston compression according to the book ....( you`re the expert there
Kurt
> ;^}}. ) ) .....and so may not be giving a full gas seal in the crankase
or
> head gasket, ....showing, particularly, at low revs - hi load ...
> probably; for peace of mind, ...check the torque on the head bolts, if
they
> take up another part turn you are well on the way to the fault , if not,
at
> least that has been ruled out ... and keep a record of all the points
> checked ....... once again, Kurt is the expert there ......
>
> Is there a way to check crank case compression , other than taking the
> barrel off and fitting a new gasket ??? ..........
There is a way to check crank compression without taking anything off but
the carb and pipe... but I'm counting on his plug readings to show a lean
condition.
>
> It`s almost like the scoot is stuck in 3rd and 4th gear ... it should out
> accelerate the CH 150 Spacy 4 stroke up or down hill - i had a ch125 Spacy
> and my little 1990 Honda Vision 50cc`ped was faster to 45mph......
Exactly my thoughts... stuck in high gear.
>
> Lee.
>
>
>
>
Thanks, Lee.
Kurt F
--
-Kurt F
King Cobra @ http://www.mopedhospital.com/img/70cc.jpg
"joed" <halfm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7508616b.02092...@posting.google.com...
> see replies below each.
>
>
> > How to talk rpm without a tach.. hmmm... I don't want to tell you to get
an
> > add-on tach... no where to put it for $40. I had two ideas though:
> >
> > Ride with your wife. Have her drive the antique, and you drive the CH
along
> > side, using the CH tach, and matching engine tone with her engine as she
> > tries the initial grab, flat max accelerate, and uphill test runs. And
if
> > your CH doesn't have a tach either, sell both scooters ;-) NOTE:
2-strokes
> > are designed to run higher rpm than 4-strokes. 7000 on your 2-stroke
should
> > be it's normal operating range.. 7000 on your CH 4-stroke should be at
or
> > near it's red-line.
>
>
> Uh Oh...no tach on the Ch150 either.
Damn Honda!
>
>
> >
> > Carry a tune. Are you musical?
>
> You kiddin? Hehe:) go visit www.joedoriamusic.com
That is totally cool! I play guitar myself, though solely for personal love
of it. Ok.. so now we convert RPM to NOTE, and I know you can carry a note.
This will give us close enough. Actually, hearing is more accurate than you
might think for measuring rpm, if you can carry a tune.
"Look, Mummy... Why is that MAN riding a scooter with a harmonica in his
mouth?"
Heehee....
Ok... 7000rpm = 116.67Hz. The A above middle C is 440Hz. Down an octave
(below middle C)= 220Hz... down another octave = 110 Hz. That's close to
7000rpm.. actually... 110 * 60 = 6,600rpm.
B = 123.5Hz = 7410rpm (second one below middle C)
A = 110Hz = 6600rpm
G = 98Hz = 5880rpm
F = 87.3Hz = 5238rpm
E = 82.4Hz = 4944rpm (This is the open 6th string on a guitar)
D = 73.4Hz = 4404rpm
C = 65.4Hz = 3900rpm
There you go: one octave between C (second one below middle) and B (also
second one below middle). Mi, fa, so, la, ti, doh, rea. B is your high end
rpm, and the C below that is your low end, where your bike should not even
be engaging the clutch yet.
Your power band is at A#.
Your clutch should just be grabbing your wheel between C and E.
When you go WOT on a flat, your engine should reach around A or A# to start;
then may bend down a little, as low as G, as you accelerate up to about 30
or 40mph; then reach power balance at max speed at A#.
When you hit a hill at max speed, your engine should not go below G, since
your max torque is at G# (according to your engine specs).
So you only have to 'carry' two notes with you on the road: G and A#. In
the two prior paragraphs, those two driving scenarios, G to A# is your
operating rev range.
If it's the CVT, we will need to get you lighter roller weights to correct.
ASSUMING that the parts all move freely and there is NO GREASE on anything
that does not specifically require grease in your service manual, and then
use high-temp grease, not the cheap shit. If you read my CVT paper, you
know that my CVT has NO grease on rollers, Vclips, or drive pulley hub. If
your book says grease the rollers and ramp plate, then use high temp grease,
or it will fly off and gum up your drive pulley hub, which is supposed to
allow free and easy motion in and out against the belt. If it says thin
layer, then smear it on thin enough that you can't easily swipe any more off
with your finger.
You see.. if your drive pully, sliding on it's hub, gets grease on it, then
the belt powder will gum it up and resist shifting. When I say no binding
moving that thing in and out, I mean *really free and easy* motion of the
drive pulley face in and out on the hub and V clips. The hub and V clips
are the only friction parts for the pulley's motion in and out. Right? If
your book does not say to grease these, then make sure you don't accidently
smudge any on them.
>
> >
> > It's not your compression.
>
> Ok, cool. Didn't want to go through that again. But shouldn't it be
> 170 as stated in the book? Hope I did it all right.
Maybe you are well enough above sea level, that your less dense air does not
register as much on your pressure guage. I do know that yoru reading of
140, compared to spec 170, is not low enough to cause this power loss.
>
> >
> > Neither wheel has a brake stuck on. Right?
>
> No, I checked that too.
>
> >
> > As Mike suggested, when you check your reed valves, you'll know if it's
lack
> > of fuel charge that's killing you.
>
> I'll check the reed valves again. i once took a look at them when I
> first was diagnosing. They seemed fine, sturdy and open valves. Not
> bends..but I'll check again.
Open? OPEN????? These should be flat and closed in the rest position.
Only suction through your carb should bend these open. Read mine and Lee's
post in this thread below about that.
>
>
> >
> > When you get your plug readings, you'll know if it's the carb running
too
> > rich that's killing you.
>
> Well, I checked the plug at full throttle tonight. Based on the plug
> charts I saw on the web suggested by you guys...it's acting perfectly.
> I'll check the plug at 1/4 and 1/2 tomorrow too.
> But...everything looks good as for the plug (got 3 of them).
Good... dark brown insulator at WOT means your main jet is fine, and you
don't have a major intake air leak. You could have a tiny one, but the
idle, 1/8, and 1/4 will show if that's true.
>
>
> >
> > When you get the idea of rpm, you'll know if it's the cvt running too
high
> > gear that's killing you.
>
> Oh great..no tach...no knowing about my RPMs (not sure I want to spend
> $40.00 more right now.
Why buy a tach when you have music in your heart? ;-)
>
> >
> > Your air filter box is stock, is attached with no leaks, and has no
extra
> > holes drilled into it, other than the manufacturer, right?
>
> Stock air box. no holes in it..but it does have a small section of
> bent lip on the bottom (not bad enough to be a problem I must
> say...just a tiny bend out...but the gasket is still intact too).
>
> The air filter is dry. I did nOT soak it in 90w gear oil as stated
> in manual this time.
> However, I did do this not long ago as a test. No difference.
>
> i have a tightening band around the connector to carb just to secure a
> good seal.
Ok cool. The only thing is that it doesn't leak air in, and your filter,
oiled or not, is in place.
>
>
> >
> > When you did your work on the pipe, did any black or rusty metal junk
fall
> > out of it? Does anything rattle around inside of it? Are there any
holes
> > drilled into it not by the manufacturer?
>
> Not much came out but the berrymans. No rattling. no holes.
> What's the weight of a working stock aero 125 pipe? Mine is somewhat
> heavy..but it looks as if it should be that way.
Hell yes! My stock pipe was almost as heavy as the engine! Your pipe is
the mystery factor. It is also the most expensive part to replace or
upgrade. It could be robbing you of power, but the only way to know that
for sure is to open it up and see if it has all it's internal passages
intact from the stock design. And since we don't have a blueprint of the
damn thing... Well... let's see how your music test goes.
>
>
> >
> > I honestly can't think of a single thing, not mentioned here or examined
by
> > you on prior posts that would give you this grief. I'm pretty sure I've
not
> > overlooked anything, but I welcome the group to check me on that.
> >
> > The good news is, your problem is in this letter somewhere ;-)
>
>
> Man, I dunno. i hope you're right. but it's looking to be something
> mysteriously wrong here.
> I wish one of you were in the seattle area so i could have you take a
> peek at her.
>
>
> thanks, let's see if we get it
>
> JoeD
Go to it, man! I'm anxious about what your rpm profile looks like! And
tell me if your reeds are closed when at rest... And take the 1/8, 1/4,
1/2 throttle plug readings! DATA! DATA! I NEED DATA!
Oooops... sorry
;-)
Kurt
greggscooter
Early in this thread I said that I thought the torque spring was too weak,
and I still think it's not closing the rear pulley enough to get the low
gear ratio needed to get up into the powerband.
You could make a mark on the inner front face of the rear pulley half
with a permanent felt tip marker, then ride it on whatever grade that gets
the highest engine speed, then look to see how far up the mark has been worn
away by the belt. Under strong acceleration or hill climbing, the mark
should be worn off if the belt is climbing all the way to the outer edge of
the pulley
Isn't there a stronger spring for this model, or that's for a different
model but will fit ?
Greggpa
.
joed
> Go to it, man! I'm anxious about what your rpm profile looks like! And
> tell me if your reeds are closed when at rest... And take the 1/8, 1/4,
> 1/2 throttle plug readings! DATA! DATA! I NEED DATA!
>
> Oooops... sorry
>
> ;-)
> Kurt
Hurt, these type of reeds are solid metal and don't move up and down.
They are permanantly open. I would really have to force these closed
if you feel they should be...and that doesn't seem right with this
type reed. it's one solid metal reed piece.
JoeD
SoCalMike
hmmm... open a lot? arent they supposed to act like 1-way check valves?
Kurt F
--
-Kurt F
King Cobra @ http://www.mopedhospital.com/img/70cc.jpg
"joed" <halfm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7508616b.02092...@posting.google.com...
> >
Hoe, (heeeeeeheheheheee)
I think you are referring to the reed valve stoppers. These are curved
metal pieces that are sandwiched on top of the reed block. The reed lies
flat on top of the opening in the reed block; then the reed stopper lies on
top of the flexible reed, and is curved upward from the reed.
I wish I had a picture to show you...
Found one: http://www.microbikes.com/Photos/Polini%20parts/143.405.002.JPG
This shows the basic idea. You can see the reed pedals lying flat on the
block, covering the openings (this is where I said before, you want to have
no more than a hair of light visible under the reed (between reed and
block). The reed stopper is the brass piece.
When your engine sucks, it pulls fuel/air through the reed block openings,
which are covered with the flexible reeds. The suction pulls the reeds off
the opening in the block to allow fuel/air through. As the reeds bend and
lift off the block, they arch beneath the curved reed stopper, which is like
a cuved metal backing plate that limits the reed's lift.
The reed block openings are often rubber-coated, acting as a 'gasket' to
seal with the reed pedal. The reed pedals (reeds) are either fiber-glass,
carbon/fiber, or metal. They are thin and flimsy, made to bend and flex.
The reeds are pinched at one end between the reed block and the reed
stopper. The stopper is plate metal, and cuved, and is screwed in on top of
the reeds.
Wouldnt' it be a hoot, if all this time, you were running with no reed
pedals?
Ooops!
Kurt
Lee
> Lee, I'm glad you are here. I don't have experience with what a faulty
reed
> does to an engine. This is where book-knowlege and sense are not enough
> without experience (which you were kind enough to share). And I am an
> expert on THAT shit!
No Kurt , i`m not eperienced with reed valves , i try to figure out what a
component does and how it works ... and my deduction is that a reed valve is
akin to a poppet inlet valve in a four stroke , ie.... a one way valve in
fact ....open to allow mixture to gain access, and then closes tight to keep
the charge in ...and in a way, you can probably apply parallel faults with a
poppet inlet valve .... that`s my assumption .......
snip
> There is a way to check crank compression without taking anything off but
> the carb and pipe... but I'm counting on his plug readings to show a lean
> condition.
> > It`s almost like the scoot is stuck in 3rd and 4th gear ... it should
out
> > accelerate the CH 150 Spacy 4 stroke up or down hill - i had a ch125
Spacy
> > and my little 1990 Honda Vision 50cc`ped was faster to 45mph......
>
> Exactly my thoughts... stuck in high gear.
> Thanks, Lee.
There is another possibility ... seeing as the scoot is fairly old, ( no
offence )... maybe it has mechanical ignition and not CDI .... in which
case, could the ignition timing be retarded ???, ... that would give similar
symptoms of a flat running engine with loss of Grunt !!....also did he
replace the exhaust gasket after servicing it ???.... easily done .......
;^}}.
Lee.
joed
talking about the stoppers.
Oh no. Wow.
I bet the reeds are hosed (i didn't remember "seeing" any reeds then
other than what is now - the stoppers).
Holy shit.
Ok, I'm not gonna bithch about the new clutch, weights, v clips and
cost and time pulling hair out if this is it.
I guess it could have used all that work anyway (keep telling yourself
that Joe...must bulslhit self :)
Man, i hope this is it.
It's over if so.
damn, such a small and cheap item causing all this pain.
Joed
"Kurt F" <ku...@gloryroad.net> wrote in message news:<up4oksk...@corp.supernews.com>...
joed
(damn, hoping this may be the problem).
Now I have to wait for new reed valve gaskets (these were shot when I
took of the reed valve).
I did however take some plug readings before dismantling everything:
- 1/4 throttle = bit darker then light brown on plug
- 1/2 throttle = light brown (seems normal)
- 3/4 throtle = same light brown as at 1/2
- full throttle = same light brown as above
is this strange?..correct
air is set at 1 and 3/4 turn as in service manual, set for pretty low
idle (just before sputtering).
You think the reed valve gaskets could have been the problem (It was
tightened down of course, but who knows if the seal is like).
JoeD
halfm...@hotmail.com (joed) wrote in message news:<7508616b.02092...@posting.google.com>...
Kurt F
--
-Kurt F
King Cobra @ http://www.mopedhospital.com/img/70cc.jpg
"joed" <halfm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7508616b.02092...@posting.google.com...
> Well, the reeds are ok it seems, both intact and stoppers as well
> (damn, hoping this may be the problem).
>
> Now I have to wait for new reed valve gaskets (these were shot when I
> took of the reed valve).
>
> I did however take some plug readings before dismantling everything:
>
> - 1/4 throttle = bit darker then light brown on plug
> - 1/2 throttle = light brown (seems normal)
> - 3/4 throtle = same light brown as at 1/2
> - full throttle = same light brown as above
>
> is this strange?..correct
>
> air is set at 1 and 3/4 turn as in service manual, set for pretty low
> idle (just before sputtering).
>
> You think the reed valve gaskets could have been the problem (It was
> tightened down of course, but who knows if the seal is like).
>
> JoeD
>
>
> [snip]
Joe,
Your plug readings tell us that you are getting good mix from all carb
circuits. It is doubtful that you had an airleak, or that would've shown on
the plug readings too. But it is possible you had small leak through the
reed gasket, and had compensated for it with rich enough jetting.. so take
another plug reading (just 1/2 throttle) when you replace those gaskets to
be sure.
All the work you have done has brought us down to the CVT or the pipe, in my
opinion. I can think of nothing that would be killing your actual engine
output power, that you have not already double-checked, besides something
wrong with the pipe (like wrong one for that bike, or internal damage to
baffles or chambers).
Or, your engine out power is fine, but you just aren't feeling it because
your CVT keeps you in high gear before your engine gets to rev up to it's
power band.
Let me know when you get your new V clips installed and get those rpm
estimations we talked about last post.
I feel you are so close!
Kurt
Kurt F
--
-Kurt F
King Cobra @ http://www.mopedhospital.com/img/70cc.jpg
"Lee" <leemo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:YSAk9.9315$c24.91...@news-text.cableinet.net...
Good point, Lee... Joe? Do you have points or CDI in that thing?
joed
Is this the same as exhaust gasket?
Or am I looking at a new part.
the service manual has the pipe fitting over the exhuast port on cyl
held on by two nuts, and that is what I'm doing.
I didn't see a gasket between the pipe and cyl exhaust in the serv
manual.
Joed
"Lee" <leemo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<YSAk9.9315$c24.91...@news-text.cableinet.net>...
joed
pretty much the same issue on the hills.
I'm about to explode here gentlemen.
And no...Honda would have just had a larger bill and the same problem
would exist. I just know it.
They are just as stumped as you guys at this point.
Everything that could be replaced has been - minus the pipe.
shit...
the only way to know is to dive into an EXPENSIVE new pipe.
shit.
I dunno what I'll do if I pay that and find the problem still exists.
At least the rebore/piston/ring work, belt, roller weights I did
actually made improvments with it's running on a flat...but everything
else isn't really doing much here.
JoeD
"Kurt F" <ku...@gloryroad.net> wrote in message news:<upb3m28...@corp.supernews.com>...
Kurt F
for that. I don't thnik any exhaust pipe bolts to a block without one.
--
-Kurt F
King Cobra @ http://www.mopedhospital.com/img/70cc.jpg
"joed" <halfm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7508616b.02100...@posting.google.com...
Kurt F
accelerates on, or hits a hill on.
;-)
--
-Kurt F
King Cobra @ http://www.mopedhospital.com/img/70cc.jpg
"joed" <halfm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7508616b.02100...@posting.google.com...
joed
On a hill:
throttle full.
pretty much lower revs (lower tone) while bogging on the hill (not
high pitch winding out). As if it's a 1/4 throttle.
Same for the slow take off from dead stop - lower tones (lower rpms)
then a gradual raising of pitch as it get's going.
On a flat when moving it's at the higher tones (rpms going).
joed
"Kurt F" <ku...@gloryroad.net> wrote in message news:<upl8uig...@corp.supernews.com>...
greggscooter
greggscooter
halves together more.
They have a certain degree of temper when new, and from what I hear, over
time the heat inside the transmission(CVT) can cause the spring steel to get
a bit softer as it loses its temper. (Send it to an anger management class.)
Have you put a new one in there?? I suppose you've checked and there's no
stronger aftermarket spring available.
To see if that might be the root of the problem , I'd take the clutch off,
and shim the spring out on the inboard side, using, perhaps several really
large diameter washers.
Then using a hill where the before speed is known, try again with the
spacers. If it has any effect at all,
you know you're on to something..
Sound wacky? It might work.
Greggpa
"joed" <halfm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7508616b.02100...@posting.google.com...
Kurt F
Sorry... I've been anxious for you to share this.
I agree with Gregg about your CVT tune. You can correct it at the spring as
he describes, or you can make the correction at the roller weights. Either
way, your CVT is upshifting too early in the takeoff, and it is not
downshifting when you hit a hill. Your reference to "like 1/8 throttle"
pretty much cinches it for me.
When you start off, your engine should be revving up to high range right
away, and stay high through the entire acceleration. When you hit a hill,
your engine rev should come down in tone slightly, but no where near as low
as an 1/8 throttle sound. When you hear a tone, can you hum a tone in your
head one octave high? That is the difference between idle and wide-open, no
load throttle: two full octaves. Almost two octaves high is how high you
should be revving throughout acceleration. If your engine does not get past
one octave high until you reach speed, your CVT is upshifting too soon. If
your engine goes down to one octave high when you hit a hill (or lower) then
your CVT is not downshifting soon enough.
Heavier spring, or lighter roller weights.
Usually, it is easier to change the weights. What size are yours? Mine are
13 x 16 (13mm long x 16mm dia) and weigh 7.5gr. These are sold in standard
sizes and weights by many distributors, not just Honda. Whatever you have
in there now, subtract a full gram and get that set, and a second set half a
gram lighter than the first. A heavier spring will have the same effect,
but may be harder to find for your bike.
I'm assuming that your CVT pulleys (both front and rear) move in and out
freely without binding or excess friction from warn sliding parts or gunk.
Have you ever seen your CVT pulleys change gear while running on a center
stand with the CVT cover off? It's a good thing to see once to get the
idea. Notice that with no load, the pulleys will shift at lower rpm (around
1 octave over idle). Apply a little rear brake, and they will shift at
higher rpm. Don't burn your brake up trying, but it was worth watching once
to me ;-)
Yours,
Kurt
PS- hope you had a cool vacation
--
-Kurt F
King Cobra @ http://www.mopedhospital.com/img/70cc.jpg
"greggscooter" <greggs...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:%hLm9.13209$PP.14454@rwcrnsc53...
greggscooter
"Kurt F" <ku...@gloryroad.net> wrote in message
news:upnagp8...@corp.supernews.com...
joed
way Honda packaged it, there is no details on the diameter and weight
of the rollers.
All I have is the part numbers...any way anyone can get info on these
with this?:
ROLLER SET, WEIGHTS - Honda part #: 22123-KGB-620 ($17.80)
SPRING, DRIVEN FACE - Honda part #: 22401-KGB-000 ($18.84)
** New v clip sliders as well for movable face
It's to the point where it runs so well on a flat with all the work
that's been done, it's pretty much as if new.
Need a running start to best make it up a steep hill adequately.
But starting up a hill from dead stop...chug city (low tone of
revs)...till you get to the top...then the tone rises (revs/rpms
faster) and she gets going.
Would the stock replacements REALLY be causing this DRASTIC
difference?
I thought it would be best to get the stock ones that came for that
model.
i agree...I don't think I'll find a larger driven face spring that
will fit the (only in the US in 1984) aero 125.
Is it the better choice for replacement to fix the problem? though
really? I think it might make the most difference.
Maybe I should go 2 grams lighter in the roller weights instead of 1
gram lighter.
Now the question is, can you please tell me what weights to get and
the best place to get them (good price)?
thanks for sticking with me on this crap...I want it over with.
BEAT THE MACHINE - DON'T LET THE MACHINE BEAT YOU
Joe
"Kurt F" <ku...@gloryroad.net> wrote in message news:<upnagp8...@corp.supernews.com>...
Kurt F
--
-Kurt F
King Cobra @ http://www.mopedhospital.com/img/70cc.jpg
"joed" <halfm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7508616b.02100...@posting.google.com...
> These are "stock" aero 125 replacement weights from Honda. Man, the
> way Honda packaged it, there is no details on the diameter and weight
> of the rollers.
> All I have is the part numbers...any way anyone can get info on these
> with this?:
>
> ROLLER SET, WEIGHTS - Honda part #: 22123-KGB-620 ($17.80)
> SPRING, DRIVEN FACE - Honda part #: 22401-KGB-000 ($18.84)
> ** New v clip sliders as well for movable face
Do a web search on lycos.com, and use the search string:
+honda +roller +weights
or
+aero +roller +weights
or
+lead +roller +weights
Include the plus signs, as they force inclusion on the lycos search site.
>
> It's to the point where it runs so well on a flat with all the work
> that's been done, it's pretty much as if new.
> Need a running start to best make it up a steep hill adequately.
YABBA DABBA DOOOOO!!!
> But starting up a hill from dead stop...chug city (low tone of
> revs)...till you get to the top...then the tone rises (revs/rpms
> faster) and she gets going.
>
> Would the stock replacements REALLY be causing this DRASTIC
> difference?
> I thought it would be best to get the stock ones that came for that
> model.
Yeah, that bothers me a little too. And it makes me suspicious that your
pipe has burned out or rusted out internal baffles that cause your engine to
lack power. But we can't see that, and since the pipe is gonna be expensive
and hard to find, my tactic is to spend $25 on roller weights to bring your
revs up to the power band during climing and startup accel. Once we get
your engine operating in teh powerband with the small investment, then we
can judge your pipe, because there's nothing left to cause this problem (to
the extent of my knowlege, and all the work and data you've documented to
date).
At any rate, keep your stock weights in case. You could ask your supplier
how much/what size, or you could measure them and weigh them yourself.
>
> i agree...I don't think I'll find a larger driven face spring that
> will fit the (only in the US in 1984) aero 125.
> Is it the better choice for replacement to fix the problem? though
> really? I think it might make the most difference.
A next stiffer spring can have the same effect as a 1.5 gram increase in
weights. But there is one reason to increase the spring INSTEAD of decrease
the weights: belt slipping. Yours doesn't seem to be slipping, as it is
holding in the pulleys well enough to bog down your engine.
>
> Maybe I should go 2 grams lighter in the roller weights instead of 1
> gram lighter.
>
Maybe you're right. Get one set 1 gram lighter, and another 2 grams light.
> Now the question is, can you please tell me what weights to get and
> the best place to get them (good price)?
I can't tell you that until you measure and weigh what you have in now, as I
said, 1, 1.5, or 2 grams lighter than what you have now.
>
> thanks for sticking with me on this crap...I want it over with.
> BEAT THE MACHINE - DON'T LET THE MACHINE BEAT YOU
>
> Joe
>
You have alot of heart... one persistant sonofabitch! I like that.
Yours,
Kurt
[snip]
greggscooter
"no details on the diameter and weight
> of the rollers.
Hey Joe,
If you dont have a gram scale do like I did and take them to a jewlery
store. They'll have one you can be sure.
As long as you have them out, examine them for flat spots. That alone can
keep a cvt from downshifting.
> ROLLER SET, WEIGHTS - Honda part #: 22123-KGB-620 ($17.80)
> SPRING, DRIVEN FACE - Honda part #: 22401-KGB-000 ($18.84)
> ** New v clip sliders as well for movable face.
I'd replace it all, rollers, v clips and torque spring.
> Need a running start to best make it up a steep hill adequately.
> But starting up a hill from dead stop...chug city (low tone of
> revs)...till you get to the top...then the tone rises (revs/rpms
> faster) and she gets going.
>
> Would the stock replacements REALLY be causing this DRASTIC
> difference?
Yes, if they are flattened. Then they can get stuck on the ramps and not
go all the way out. If they wont go all the way out, the movable face wont
close enough to get you into the lower ratio you need.
You can test this by making a mark with a permanent felt tip, go fer a
ride, then open it up and you'll be able to SEE how high the belt gets.
> I thought it would be best to get the stock ones that came for that
> model.
>
> i agree...I don't think I'll find a larger driven face spring that
> will fit the (only in the US in 1984) aero 125.
A stronger spring may not BE larger, just thicker.
And if the spring that's in there has lost it's temper, it will be weaker.
> Is it the better choice for replacement to fix the problem? though
> really?
Yes, a new spring, only $18.75 !
A bargin if thats the problem. The rollers too, if they have flat places.
Greggpa
kevin
mechanism.
In doing so i had to take off the front brake cable.
I noticed the easy adjustment of the brakes. Have you ruled out rubbing
brakes?
I've owned Honda scooters for 17 years, never had tranny problems that
required fixes like you all describe here. It's been difficult following
exactly what's up and what's been done with your 125.
joed
this thread or an email I sent at some point on this...
he suspects the muffler. Just based on everything that's been done up
to this point.
A change in roller weights from the stock ones just doesn't seem like
it would be the solve on this (nor a stronger spring).
Now, really...this has been the best little hobby for me up to this
point. I think you all could tell I was HEADSET ON LEARNING - any
other tech would just say "screw it, it's not worth it...and
rightfully so. There are other bikes now and you'd be best off with
one of those.
But in this case, I needed these problems for the schooling in almost
every area of a motor/bike. From the cylinder to the brakes...this
bike had problems everywhere.
I've always wanted to learn about engine repair/etc....and this little
old scoot with all it's problems was the best tool in doing so. I've
learned so much that the $ I've spent was really worth it (although
the other small but hellish problems such as stripped nuts and such
took it's toll on me and tested out my four letter language :).
This is why, other than the rebore, I wanted to tackle all this
myself.
Plus, with each little thing I did, the performance (on a flat) just
got better and better.
That said, I found out that there is no Honda replacement
pipes/muffler for the aero 125. So, if I continue my goal of "BEAT
THE MACHINE"....I'm gonna need to rule this out....and hopefully win.
Then this scooter will, i can't believe I'm saying this...be virtually
like new.
A propane torch was reccomended by the honda tech...but how safe is
this?...I dunno. He seemed like it wasn't really that safe.
And another here reccomended finding someone/somewhere with a shop
with a super hot oven (forgot what it was called again) and hang the
pipe there to drip out all the gunk.
I don't think the BBQ would work - probably not hot enough.
The worst case scenario the tech said, get a long driver and hammer,
put it in the the muffler end and puncture through the exhaust end of
the pipe (not the end that connects to the cylinder exhaust) and pop
through basically making it a straight shot muffler (rather than the
turns).
This may affect low mid power a bit and make it louder...but that is
worst case scneario.
The other way is to get a used aero 125 muffler/pipe somewhere that is
verified NOT PLUGGED. But ...how can one gaurentee this? It's gotta
be impossible.
Lastly, UP UNTIL NOW - AFTER ALL REPLACEMENTS HAVE BEEN DONE, my gut
tells me it's not the pipe and it's not that clogged.
However, after talking with the tech...this could very well be THE
problem...the last problem albeit...but the one that I'm trying to
solve now.
So, anybody have any contacts for obtaining a clear (unclogged) aero
125 replacement pipe? Or a sure fire way to clear this one I have?
I can't think of any, but I'm calling all used bike shops.
Maybe I should have it cut open at this point? and clean it...then
weld it back up?
I mean, come on....after all this work...did you think I was going to
stop short here :)?
WE're almost done for chrissakes
I want to thank all of you for your help and support.
You taught me a HELLUVALOT and I'm very grateful.
Joe
"Kurt F" <ku...@gloryroad.net> wrote in message news:<upnvenf...@corp.supernews.com>...
SoCalMike
>
> But in this case, I needed these problems for the schooling in almost
> every area of a motor/bike. From the cylinder to the brakes...this
> bike had problems everywhere.
well, depends on how you define "problems".
as in kurt having problems with his new stock cobra, which he fixed by
improving it.
Kurt F
I found this in New Zealand, specializing in torn down Jap cycle parts, and
they list 5 NH125's worth of parts:
http://www.japmcdismantlers.co.nz/honda.htm
You could call them.
I also like the idea of cutting the pipe open, cleaning, then welding shut.
There is one last thing you have never mentioned and we have not covered:
points. Does that old thing have 'em? If your points are fouled, your
timing is off and killing your power. Have you checked into that at all?
I'm glad you got good use from all the experience and time spent on it.
When you get it going, I wanna ride! ;-)
Kurt
Jack
steel trash can cover, and build a fire using a good ten pounds of
charcoal, preferrably on a big grill, but if not, even on the ground,
so long as it was a sandy area, and once the load of charcoal is all
white, put the pipe on the fire and leave it there.
the fire will be plenty hot and big enough to cook your pipe free of
oil sludge. The worst that will happen is it will flare up a bit,
(not a problem if you have a fire on the sand or in a big grill in an
open area, no worse than the charcoal lighter flares) leave it in the
fire until the coals die and cool, then respray the outside with black
high temp paint and your pipe will be clear, perhaps blowing out ashes
when you reinstall it. Unless the pipe is rusted or broken, no need
to replace it.
halfm...@hotmail.com (joed) wrote in message news:<7508616b.02100...@posting.google.com>...
Kurt F
of a straight-through, diverging/converging tube design. They seem to have
a tube coming from the engine and protruding into a large, oblong chamber.
Are you familiar with this type of pipe? Would this chamber have baffles in
it which are critical to the tune and reflection of waves, but could be
burned and corroded out?
--
-Kurt F
King Cobra @ http://www.mopedhospital.com/img/70cc.jpg
"Jack" <adiron...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5aad6b5.02100...@posting.google.com...
Jack
is the "musical instrument", like an organ pipe in a sense, whereas
the kind that has a pipe, often perforated, or inerrupted with baffles
that really amount to segmenting the inner pipe and allowing some of
the gasses to bounce around inside the outer can, and create confused
waves that act to partially cancel the sound emmitted, and work to
silence without the power advantages of a tuned pipe, but with more
diffuse back pressure over a wider operatiing range. The result is
less power at peak, but more quiet at all ranges. Functionally they
are not really any different than either a common car muffler,
(interupted inner pipe, except teh car type tends to use more tubes
turning corners to lengthen path within the can, or the other kind of
car muffler, the straight through "thrush" type, with perforated inner
pipe. I would have to imagine that it would be most unusual to rust
the innards of all but the most lightly built 2 stroke mufflers, as
they are always coated with carmelized tar from partially burned oil.
Unlike a car, where there is little oil, and the condensates tend to
gather after short runs, and mufflers rust away, 2 strokes (or even 4
stroke M/C mufflers fail if the vibrations of much higher operating
frequencies (rpm dictated) cause the baffles to break loose inside. I
have had an engine running often at or above 10,000 rpms shell out
baffles, but in moderate rpm engines that is less common. If that
were the case, he'd know it as the loose baffle would be rattling like
hell, as it certainly can't escape the can of the two stroke, where on
the old megaphone type, one could blow out the exhaust. So, unless
there is a rattle inside, I doubt he has rusted out baffles. More
likely is the preforations in the pipe are heavily coated with tar
from running smoky as hell with the lousy compression it had before
the ring job. I doubt he'd do any damage burning it out with a
charcoal or wood fire, and as a matter of fact that is pretty standard
treatment applied to mufflers of chainsaws, snowmobiles, and other
cold weather two strokes that seem to oil clog faster than their hot
weather cousins. He was talking about finding an obsolete muffler,
likely used and maybe no better, or worse than what he has, and for
ten bucks he can rejuvinate this one unless it is physically broken,
which means cracked welds, rusted away can, or rattling guts, all of
which would be obvious. I have never seen the perforated pipe rust
out on a rich running two stroke. The pipe extracts heat from the
gasses, and the oil condenses as tarry gunk in the pipe.
"Kurt F" <ku...@gloryroad.net> wrote in message news:<ups485k...@corp.supernews.com>...
> Jack, the stock pipes that come with many 2stroke scooters don't seem to be
> of a straight-through, diverging/converging tube design. They seem to have
> a tube coming from the engine and protruding into a large, oblong chamber.
> Are you familiar with this type of pipe? Would this chamber have baffles in
> it which are critical to the tune and reflection of waves, but could be
> burned and corroded out?
>
> --
> -Kurt F
>
> King Cobra @ http://www.mopedhospital.com/img/70cc.jpg
>
> "Jack" <adiron...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:5aad6b5.02100...@posting.google.com...
> > Look, buy a bag of charcoal, and if you don't have a grill, use a
> > steel trash can cover, and build a fire using a good ten pounds of
> > charcoal, preferrably on a big grill, but if not, even on the ground,
> > so long as it was a sandy area, and once the load of charcoal is all
> > white, put the pipe on the fire and leave it there.
> >
> > the fire will be plenty hot and big enough to cook your pipe free of
> > oil sludge. The worst that will happen is it will flare up a bit,
> > (not a problem if you have a fire on the sand or in a big grill in an
> > open area, no worse than the charcoal lighter flares) leave it in the
> > fire until the coals die and cool, then respray the outside with black
> > high temp paint and your pipe will be clear, perhaps blowing out ashes
> > when you reinstall it. Unless the pipe is rusted or broken, no need
> > to replace it.
<<severe clip>>