Vespa quality
Auto Inspector
know for a fact that italian machinery cannot possible be related to
quality. In this context, "quality" = "reliability". I remember times
when alpha romeo was still selling in the US, and I can assure you
that it was one of the worst pieces of junk known to mankind.
Now, why is vespa so popular? It's all in perception - it was the
first scooter manufacturer, and the term "vespa" became an equivalent
of the term "scooter". Just like with the term "jeep" that today
represents a class of a vehicle rather than the actual crap model
produced by nearly dead chrysler.
Did you know that there is a chance of buying a Chinese-made vespa? It
looks ugly (a.k.a. "retro") and costs 3+ times of a much better unit
produced at the same factory in the same country. If money is not an
issue, there are excellent scooters made by Yamaha or Honda (in case
of the latter - not the small ones - 50cc - though). These are at
least twice the price of a genuine Chinese brand but certainly have
their advantages. They also have their disadvantages. Such as parts
and service cost not to mention availability. The other day I
contacted a Yamaha dealer and inquired about replacement engine for my
Yamaha C3. Imagine my surprise when they told me that the engine
assembly was not available at all, and if I decide to buy pieces
separately and put them together, I'd be much better off buying two
new scooters instead. For information, the entire power train
assembly (engine and transmission) for a Chinese scooter can be
purchased for less than $400.
Things change. If you talk to an older person, they will tell you that
in the 60's the worst junk available was made in Japan... The big
three detroit morons have been screaming for the last few months that
they have changed, and that the consumers should forget all atrocities
over common sense they've been committing over the last thirty
years... In case of a Chinese scooter industry, their quality has
dramatically improved over the last few years, and considering their
affordability - a very decent model can be bought for less than a
grand - they most definitely represent an extremely viable alternative
not only to vespa - which is obvious - but even to Yamaha.
Unless you are a mechanically inclined individual, I would not suggest
buying from online outfits that provide no meaningful warranty but if
there is a full-service dealership available where you live such as
http://www.greenridescooters.com, I would go with a Chinese scooter
without a second of hesitation.
Alan Ferris
<leor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I would go with a Chinese scooter
>without a second of hesitation.
Sums up your true knowledge of scooters then.
--
Ferrit
()'.'.'()
( (T) )
( ) . ( )
(")_(")
"I always babble nonsense to people"
Patrick Barker
Sporty
"Auto Inspector" <leor...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8fa8eff8-15e1-470f...@t10g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
Why not buy 2, Then you will have some "spare" parts.
I have been a scooter mechanic since 2003 and Chinese scooters are not the
way to go.
tomcas
I agree that the older Italian cars like Fiat were crap when compared to
American cars of the time. However, I disagree that Vespa or any other
older Italian motorcycle were inferior. In fact Harley was having their
smaller bikes made for them by the Italians. While Chinese bikes have
gotten better recently they still have a very long way to go before
being considered a quality product. Japanese bikes are the best and
Taiwanese are close behind,and India is behind them. If you want a real
bench mark of quality just look what country of origin or make has the
best reputation in another country. For instance, in the US Honda or
Toyota rate better then the big US three. I'm certain in China the
Chinese cringe at the thought of owning a Chinese bikes because they
know more then anyone what pieces of crap they still are.
SoCalMike
> I would go with a Chinese scooter
> without a second of hesitation.
thats you. most people that start out buying chinese do so because
1)its cheapest
2)they think theyre going to save money
3)a scooters a scooter, right?
i dont mind wrenching on stuff, and GY6 engine clones are relatively
easy to find stuff for, IF you know where to look.
i dont think chinese scooter quality is right there yet. certainly not
as high as japan, taiwan, korea, or india.
i started out on a brand new 1986 elite 80, $1200 out the door. i rode
that thing from long beach to burbank- anywhere i wanted. 18,000 miles
til it wore out, which was probably helped a bit by me insisting on
using 20/50 "racing" oil instead of 10/40.
couple hundred bucks would have gotten me a low mile junkyard engine
that would have lasted me just as long. C3 probably uses the same engine
as a vino 50, so there ya go!
with proper care, how long would you expect a 50cc yamaha engine to
last? 20k? 30?
new vespas are like new beetles. its "the image". im sure vespas are
better than before but nah- not worth the asking price. my TMax would
smoke em all anyway. haha...
Auto Inspector
> On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:05:28 -0700 (PDT), Auto Inspector
>
> >I would go with a Chinese scooter
> >without a second of hesitation.
>
> Sums up your true knowledge of scooters then.
>
> --
> Ferrit
>
> ()'.'.'()
> ( (T) )
> ( ) . ( )
> (")_(")
> "I always babble nonsense to people"
> Patrick Barker
You are trying to enforce your agenda without giving a thought to any
alternative. I am NOT saying that Chinese scooters are better than
Yamaha or Honda but I certainly insist that they are not any worse
than italian stuff... even without price consideration.
Mind is like a parachute - useless unless open.
Auto Inspector
Italian cars are crap EVEN "when compared to American cars". If you've
seen what I've seen in the field over the last 20 years, you'd
understand what I am talking about. Again, Chinese bikes are not the
best in the world but for the price - especially considering parts
availability these days - they are a viable alternative when purchased
from a local dealer that offers warranty.
Sporty
2001 Malaguti Ducati Foggy Replica 50cc 2 stroke water cooled, LeoVince
ZX Hand-Made TT Scooter Exhaust Chrome/ Carbon Fiber, Pirelli SL 36
Performance Scooter Tires. 62mph!
Zero problems with 10,000+ miles.
Chinese scooters still suck ass!!!!
prh...@gmail.com
> without a second of hesitation.
Another joker trying to justify his purchase of a cheap Chinese
piece of junk.
cuh...@webtv.net
crap.
cuhulin
prh...@gmail.com
An Italian made Vespa is a fine little scooter that will give many
good, troupbe
free years and miles of service. A Chinese or Indian copy might look
pretty but its
a crap shgoot how long it will run and when it breaks down, forget
getting parts
or finding someone who can or will even attempt to fix it.
SoCalMike
> Yamaha or Honda but I certainly insist that they are not any worse
> than italian stuff... even without price consideration.
so youre saying that ALL chinese scooters are no worse than ANY of the
italian stuff? youre smoking crack.
SoCalMike
the indian "copies" im thinking of are at least REAL copies with parts
interchangeable with older vespa models. parts are still available, too.
paul c
the Indian Vespas I'm thinking of aren't made anymore. At one time they
were more or less identical except maybe for the metallurgy involved,
eg., a mid 70's Baja150 two-stroke was the same as an early 60's
European Vespa 150. Vespa fans I've known stay clear of the older
Indian and Asian Vespa clones, not because of origin but because a lot
of them were hacked in the backyard with homemade repairs then shipped
to N.A. with new paint jobs to disguise the damage. I had to help a
neighbour with one of those. It's a mixed story, IMO, having had a new
GTS 250 a few years ago, made in Italy that had a loose screw inside the
lower compartment that couldn't be extracted and having it die on the
road before 200 klics on the clock because the spark plug connector was
pushed on at the factory, not screwed in as it is supposed to be. i
know somebody whose new Vespa's oil pump failed under warranty but took
six months for repairs due to waiting for not only parts, but special
tools to be shipped from Italy. Part of that might have to do with the
dealer 'boutique' mentality here in N.A. (If I had owned the
dealership, I would have fired the salesman who told me loose screws
were common and that I was lucky there was only one!) There is no doubt
that pretty much anything from Taiwan is very well built, plus some
stuff from China, such as the Lifan engines. Then there are the $15,000
and up, big displacement bikes built in the UsA that are notorious for
oil leaks as soon as they leave the showroom.
Sporty
"Sporty" <wh...@too.you> wrote in message
news:UaDcm.2249$cW....@newsreading01.news.tds.net...
This was not my post!! WTF???
Alan Ferris
>
>"Auto Inspector" <leor...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:a8991641-d031-40bb...@26g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
>On Jun 10, 10:24 am, Alan Ferris <hairy.fer...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:05:28 -0700 (PDT), Auto Inspector
>>
>> <leoru...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >I would go with a Chinese scooter
>> >without a second of hesitation.
>>
>> Sums up your true knowledge of scooters then.
>>
>> --
>> Ferrit
>>
>> ()'.'.'()
>> ( (T) )
>> ( ) . ( )
>> (")_(")
>> "I always babble nonsense to people"
>> Patrick Barker
>
>You are trying to enforce your agenda without giving a thought to any
>alternative. I am NOT saying that Chinese scooters are better than
>Yamaha or Honda but I certainly insist that they are not any worse
>than italian stuff... even without price consideration.
>Mind is like a parachute - useless unless open.
Well it is clear you have a closed mind by assuming that I have an
agenda. I simply have seen what China produces as scooters,
dangerous, poor quality and very difficult to obtain replacement parts
which will be needed due to the quality of the product.
Buy any bike you like, but do not claim the Chineese are good or even
come close to the level of italian bikes. I know many who have
italian bikes and have no problems, just as I have owned italian bikes
in the past and had no problems. I cannot say the same for people who
have brought the cheep chineese muck.
SoCalMike
> tools to be shipped from Italy. Part of that might have to do with the
> dealer 'boutique' mentality here in N.A. (If I had owned the
a lot of that mentality came from Vespa itself. They pissed off a LOT of
dealerships that had been around for decades fixing, restoring and
selling old original vespas.
> dealership, I would have fired the salesman who told me loose screws
> were common and that I was lucky there was only one!) There is no doubt
> that pretty much anything from Taiwan is very well built, plus some
> stuff from China, such as the Lifan engines. Then there are the $15,000
> and up, big displacement bikes built in the UsA that are notorious for
> oil leaks as soon as they leave the showroom.
i dont think ANY of the japanese bikes and scooters ive owned have ever
dripped oil. my 05 XT225 kinda weeps a bit near the base of the
cylinder, just enough to leave a residue. and yeah, thats kinda
disappointing for a yamaha. seems to happen more when i use a synthetic,
though.
Auto Inspector
Like I said, my 20 years in auto inspections business have brought me
to the conclusion that italian machinery can only be compared to that
of Britain. Well, French is garbage too but italian stuff is
SOMETHING. So when I use the term "scooter" I mean Honda or Yamaha
rather than vespa, etc. The fact is: historically, vespa has been the
most common brand in scooters just like jeeps - in 4WD world. Does it
mean jeep today has any meaning as far as quality and design go? Hell
NO! Chrysler got what it deserved for decades, and now the fun time
comes - two pieces of crap - chrysler and fiat mixed together. But
even this is not the main point.
A 50cc scooter (not vespa!) for nearly $3,000 is a toy because for
that kind of money you can buy a very nice Civic that would serve you
for years to come. For people who need BASIC transportation from/to
school or work, people who watch every penny and want to save on gas,
parking, insurance and YES, initial purchase price a Chinese scooter
is THE ULTIMATE solution. And again - because I know for a fact that
you missed this point as well - parts for Chinese scooters are cheap
and readily available, and - unless you can work on them - buy from a
local dealer that provides warranty and service.
What's so hard to understand? If you have $6-7K to spare and are
looking for occasional fun, by all means go with Honda or Yamaha but
there is no reason whatsoever to buy a vespa other than sending a
message that you can afford and are stupid enough to waste money.
prh...@gmail.com
LOL
The biggest probllem is that the dealers in Chinese scooters
are far and few between and the ones that do
exist seem to disappear almost as fast as they arrive. So most
purchasers of Chinese scooters get taken in on
unrealistic internet claims for a cheap bike.
http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/scooter-depot-sunny-sports-...
Is but of of the many sites out there with multiple complaints about
Chinese scooters, dealers and
service.
So if you want to purchase a cheap and I do mean cheap in every
sense of the word Chinese scooter
it is always best to purchase two of them, that way you will have one
that you can use for parts.
And....You better be ready to do the work yourself. I don't know of a
scooter repair mechanic out there who will
work on a chinese scooter.
Maybe the Chinese will wise up and start putting a decent product
on the market with after market parts and
service to match but now and for the foreseeable future, purchasing a
Chinese Scooter us a crap shoot.
cuh...@webtv.net
steel tubing frame, a Briggs & Stratton horizontal shaft (or whichever
American brand name engine, no problem at all about obtaining new engine
parts) and a Comet Torque Converter and suitable wheels and brakes and
lights and horn.Many, many people in years past have built their own
scooters from scratch, including World War Two surplus parts.
I have never owned a Vespa scooter before, but I believe Vespa quality
is top notch.I own a 1914 Ford Model T and a 1948 Willys Jeep and a 1978
Dodge van and a 1983 Dodge RV van and a 1976 made in Germany Hercules
Moped.My Ford Model T and my Jeep are very reliable.I know a woman who
lives in Europe, she is pleased with her Fiat Punto car.
cuhulin
Auto Inspector
At this point, I can tell that my quality standards are much stricter
than yours - I would not EVER even come close to a ford or dodge -
check this out http://anti-lemon.com/prowler.html to see why. BUT!!!
If ford was three times cheaper than a Honda or Toyota I would buy
POS. Again, I am not saying that Chinese scooters are great but they
are not any worse than ford "product". Somebody said something about
buying two to have parts which means that the point has been missed -
PARTS ARE READILY AVAILABLE ALL OVER THE WEB, and they are dirt cheap.
When I started my inspections career in the late 80's, there still
were alfa milano, and suchlike dealerships around so I have first-hand
experience with their "quality". As far as knowing a woman in Europe
who likes her fiat - I see plenty of people who are happy with their
fords. Last summer, I drove across Europe, and there are very few -
outside italy - fiats on the road in Austria, Holland, Hungary, etc.,
and those I saw were ugly as hell!
I tend to agree with the statement that the best middle-ground is
Korean or Taiwanese scooters but they still are outside of the basic
transportation category pricewise.
cuh...@webtv.net
You can use it to pull a lawn mower too.
cuhulin
cuh...@webtv.net
in America is they will keep on running long after/many years after the
foreign name brand vehicles have bit the dust.You can see them out there
still running on the highways and interstates.Nothing beats American
Iron.
cuhulin
cuh...@webtv.net
were built like a U.S.Army Tank.
Yes, I have owned a BMW before.When I was in the Army at Scott Air Force
Base,Illinois in 1963, I bought a 1957 BMW Isetta from an Air Force
Officer.When I found out I was going to Vietnam, I sold that BMW Isetta
to an Army Captain.I still have the big thick BMW Isetta
owners/operating manual which came with that car, it in a closet in my
bedroom now.It was in my foot locker, when I looked for the guy I sold
that car too, I couldn't find him so I could give him the manual.The car
was originally owned by a woman in Germany.What a death trap that car
was! You try driving a car just like that one between East Saint
Louis,Illinois and Saint Louis,Missouri on a rainy day on the old Eads
Bridge!
I have owned three air cooled engine VW vehicles before too.A 1961 VW
van I bought at Steakley Chevrolet used cars lot in Killeen,Texas in
1965, a 1963 VW beetle I bought in 1965 when I came home on a three days
pass from Fort Hood,Texas, a 1970 VW van I bought back in the late
1970s.Death traps, they are! Also, back in the 1970s, a local area guy
had a one cylinder BMW motorcycle for sale for $700.00, I passed.
I went shopping today, to the Lowe's store and the Wal Mart store.I also
bought some 2 stroke motor oil for my made in Germany 1976 Hercules
moped.
On the roads and highways, I saw quite a few old American name
brand/American manufactured pickup trucks and a big Pontiac car, those
old vehicles I saw today date back to the 1970s and early to middle
1980s
They were not blowing smoke out the tail pipes either.Like I said
before, Nothing beats American Iron!
cuhulin
cuh...@webtv.net
always carry a spare ckutch cable.There was Zero heat from the air
cooled engine to the passenger compartment.However, there was oily film
from the engine compartment on the inside surface of the windshields.The
VW reccomendation for the valves was to adjust the valves every 3,000
miles.I do have a good memory.
There is a guy who owns an old VW repair shop a few miles from me.He
specializes in the old VW air cooled engine vehicles.I think there still
are hydraulic clutch kits still available for those old model VWs with
air cooled engines and clutch cables.
There is a guy who lives about three miles from me, he owns an old 1960s
or 1970s VW Dune Buggy.One day, just for the heck of it, I asked him if
he wants to sell it.He said it isn't for sale.I suppose he is waiting
(at his old age) for somebody to offer him an outrageous price for his
VW fiberglass red color Dune Buggy.HA!,,, I wish him Luck!
I own one of those thick ''crazy books'' about VW repair, if you know
the kind of book I am talking about?
cuhulin
Luke
> At this point, I can tell that my quality standards are much
> stricter than yours - I would not EVER even come close to a
> ford or dodge
I had a Ford ONCE....
I spent more $ in repairs than if I had bouget a Mercedes!
Awful car. It was in the shop (top rated mechanics in our town)
every other month with somthing going wrong or falling apart!
cuh...@webtv.net
drove 2 1/2 ton Army combat ammo trucks, three axels/all wheels drive,
in Vietnam in 1964.They would only do a top speed of 45 MPH, but they
were governed down.
cuhulin
paul c
hey Cululin, 1962 vw windowvan, 4 of us chipped in $125 each to buy for
$500 in 1968. Went from Ontario to California and back. Blew engine
halfway across north end of Lake Superior, about 10 miles from the only
vw mechanic within a few hundred miles. Cost another $500 for
replacement engine plus many mosquito bites while we tented for a week.
Blew our wad on that but in those days it was easy to freeload for
food and a bath. Busted gears 2 and 4 somewhere after that. Returned
from California a couple of months later with only 1st and 3rd gears.
Top speed about 40 mpg for about 2000 miles. Still remember the fast
cars blowing past us on the Nevada Interstate 100 mph faster than we
were going. Those dry roads were so long and straight you could see
them in the rear-view mirrow for a couple of minutes before they blasted
past. I would have stayed in California but during the Vietnam
excitement then they drafted anybody who breathed if they weren't in
school, didn't matter if you were Yank or not.
Sporty
I had 2 of those books, Very cool!!!
Paul aka Sporty
<cuh...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:18179-4AB...@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net...
SoCalMike
> Auto Inspector <leor...@gmail.com> wrote in
>
>> At this point, I can tell that my quality standards are much
>> stricter than yours - I would not EVER even come close to a
>> ford or dodge
>
> I had a Ford ONCE....
> I spent more $ in repairs than if I had bouget a Mercedes!
> Awful car. It was in the shop (top rated mechanics in our town)
> every other month with somthing going wrong or falling apart!
id never buy one either, but i DID buy over 300 shares of their stock
when it was $2.71. i think the company itself is pretty well run. or at
least run WAY better than chrysler after daimler gave it away, or GM. Im
just wondering how long to hold it before doing some profit taking.
cuh...@webtv.net
too.Grandville King and Dawg.I used to read his articles in some auto
magazines.
I have some Windows For Dummies computer books.
cuhulin, the Dummy
cuh...@webtv.net
(Killen is next door to Fort Hood, Hell On Wheels!) the second gear
synchronizer thingy crapped out.I learned to live with it.As long as I
kept some downward pressure on top of the gear shift lever my right
hand, it worked ok.For shifting up and down through the
gears.Originally, that VW bus was a Chicken On Call bus.Whomever owned
it before me used to drive it around Fort Hood, selling sandwiches and
soft drinks/whatever.One time, on a weekend pass, I drove to Austin, I
though I would never get to Austin.
cuhulin