honda elite 150 dies on throttle up
jonraymond
has approx. 1600 mi. and I'm the orignal owner. Here's the symptoms:
Starts and idles fine. When throttled up engine speed will increase
slightly then it starts to sputter and die unless throttle is
released.
I've been trying to fix this on and off for about a year and a half
and have just about given up. Initially I took the carb off and with
the assistance of an old auto mechanic (experience with carbs) cleaned
it out. His response was "this looks really clean, can't imagine it's
plugged". We cleaned it just the same, re-assembled and scooter was
no better off. That was the end of that summer so I drained the carb,
put stabil in the tank and parked it in the corner of the garage.
Last year I purchased a brand new carb hoping maybe an internal
passage was clogged on the original. Behaves just the same. Summer
got busy and had no time to work on it, so again back in the corner it
goes till this year. This spring I'm back at it. I did discover I can
get it to throttle up while on the center stand in two ways: restrict
the airflow at the air intake, remove the air intake tube from the
carb. The intake tube is clear if that's what you're thinking. What
I think I'm seeing is that with the tube removed, gas vapor is
escaping out the front of the carb instead of all of it being sucked
back into the engine when the plunger rises opening up the main jet.
So I think it's getting too much fuel? I've checked the intake
manifold tube and it looks good, no cracking or rot at all. The small
vaccum line up to the carb shows some slight cracking on the end but
does not look like it goes past the clamp. I have ordered a new
intake manifold , O-ring, and vacuum lines anyway. It has also been
suggested the exhaust may be plugged so I pulled the muffler and it is
fine.
I hope someone can help, I've seen references to similar problems but
no solutions posted. I'd just like to get it running well and pass it
along to someone who will use it more than I. I'd hate to see it get
parted out or cannabilized as the plastic, seat, etc are all in great
shape. Even has the optional factory windscreen. Thanks.
Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply
be more familiar with this problem.
I had that kind of problem with my car once and it was a fuel filter
that needed to be replaced.
Turbo Torch
"jonraymond" <jhray...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1181006639.3...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
Did you check the vacuum activated petcock?
--
George
CX500 TURBO CX650 TURBO
'86 CH150D '04 Hayabusa
Classic Honda Scooter Forums
http://weacceptfoodstamps.com/scooters/
jonraymond
> "jonraymond" <jhraymon...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Yep, checked that and it seems fine, at least as far as I can tell. I
was initially suspecting it wasn't getting enough fuel, that's why the
carb clean, new carb, checked the petcock, tank filter, etc. Wasn't
until I really started reading about the CV carb operation and tried
running without the intake hose to see if the plunger was going up
that I started thinking maybe it was to rich. I'm hoping it's a
vacuum problem and the new parts will fix it but at this point I have
little faith. Keep the suggestions coming!
Catherine Jemma
1..... blocked fuel filter(s) (wherever they might be on that model)
2... blockage occuring at the fuel tank "pick-up" ie wherever in the fuel
tank that the tube or opening etc allows fuel to flow out of the fuel tank.
Sometimes this is a sorta metal gauze covered protrusion of thin tubing
rising up from the bottom of the tank. It might or might not be removable
with the fuel on-off tap or some other way
This can get blocked up with either dry flakes or goey "gunk" especially in
older machines
Note I can't guaranty that either of these is YOUR problem but they're worth
checking out
cheerio, hope this helped
Cate
--
"Save the Cheerleader, Save the World"
.....HEROES ep 5 Oct 2006
this email brought to you by Rubbish-Dump computer-power !
Find me at http://myspace.com/catherinejemma
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meman
experienced the same thing recently because I didn't fully attach the spark
plug wire to the spark plug by mistake after doing some spring maintanance
. Symptoms were it would idle great but anything past 25-30mph and it
sputtered a bit. Make sure that coil wire is firmly attached and snug (and
the spark is correctly gapped and in good shape)
As well, it could be the coil/wire itself...check it out.
I doubt it's carb related or your muffler is clogged based on your info.
"jonraymond" <jhray...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1181006639.3...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
meman
"meman" <bi...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:JcOdnXeeHZihqPjb...@comcast.com...
Bike guy Joe
> I hope someone can help out with a problem on my 87 elite. Scooter
> has approx. 1600 mi. and I'm the orignal owner. Here's the symptoms:
>
Intake gasket?
jonraymond
> Oh, also check and make sur eyour valves are adjusted correctly too.
>
>
> news:JcOdnXeeHZihqPjb...@comcast.com...
>
> > Sounds ignition related to me. This might be a wild hunch but I just
> > experienced the same thing recently because I didn't fully attach the
> > spark plug wire to the spark plug by mistake after doing some spring
> > maintanance . Symptoms were it would idle great but anything past
> > 25-30mph and it sputtered a bit. Make sure that coil wire is firmly
> > attached and snug (and the spark is correctly gapped and in good shape)
> > As well, it could be the coil/wire itself...check it out.
>
> > I doubt it's carb related or your muffler is clogged based on your info.
>
I believe fuel delivery to the carb is ok. This scooter has a filter
in the tank and I did suspect that but when I removed the petcock on
the bottom of the tank and ran fuel through the tank it came out as a
nice steady stream. The vaccum operated petcock also appears ok.
Bowl also appears to always have fuel in it when I need to drain it
prior to carb removal.
If it's the valves I think I'm in over my head. A friend is going to
loan me his compression gauge so I can check the compression which
should help with the valve diagnosis. If it's bad I think my work
here is done and it goes up for sale as a fixer upper/parts. I hope
that's not the case though.
The plug is new, connection to the wire seems good (I've checked that
a couple of times as I sit there and ponder options). Could be the
coil I suppose, but I can get it to rev up (see above) so I would
think if it was spark related it would not rev under any
circumstances. I'm certainly no expert but from what I've leaned in
the last few weeks and the symptoms it would seem like it's got to be
bad air/fuel mixture. Just can't see why at this point. Keep
offering suggestions!
jonraymond
Intake manifold and o-ring, vacuum hose to carb, carb to petcock, and
new clamps are on order. Should be here on Friday. The manifold and
0-ring sure do look OK. No rot or cracks at all, o-ring is intact as
well. The vacuum line from manifold to carb showed some signs of
cracking at ends, can't tell if they go behond the clamp though. I'm
really hoping replacing those fixes it but it certainly is no slam
dunk given the condition of the current parts.
paul c
> ...
> If it's the valves I think I'm in over my head. A friend is going to
> loan me his compression gauge so I can check the compression which
> should help with the valve diagnosis. If it's bad I think my work
> here is done and it goes up for sale as a fixer upper/parts. I hope
> that's not the case though.
This thread is most intriguing to me as I have a similar problem with
neighbour's 125cc bike (except in my case the symptoms go away when I
remove the air filter!).
I don't have any advice about the problem beyond what's already been
said but just a side note regarding the valves - I thought the scoot has
only 1,600 miles on it! At 1,600 miles, it seems unlikely that valves
have much to do with the problem, but if you can change the intake
manifold, you can check the valves too. I believe this engine makes
that particularly easy with external adjusters. You may have a TDC mark
on the crankshaft but if not (as on an Elite 250 I had), it went like
this for me:
1) (do this when the engine is cold)
2) remove the transmission cover (left side), taking care not to lose
the aluminum dowels
3) remove the spark plug
4) turn the crankshaft in normal direction (double check the manual, I
think it's clockwise) while shining a flashlight down the plug hole.
you should be able to see the edges of the two valves moving, intake on
the front side, exhaust on the rear (opposite to most bikes)
5) when a valve goes out of sight, it is closing. assuming you are
turning in the normal engine rotation direction, the sequence goes more
or less like this - TDC compression with both valves closed, power
stroke, exhaust valve opens, exhaust stroke, intake valve opens, exhaust
valve closes, intake stroke, intake valve closes, compression stroke,
sequence repeats.
6) now you are more or less at TDC compression. as long as both valves
are out of sight, you can adjust the external slides. looking into the
hold you should be able to see the top of the piston, just as it reaches
its maximum height (if not use a plastic ruler or stick to feel when it
is at highest point). it is okay to miss TDC by a few degrees as both
valves are closed for 150 degrees or more and during this time, there is
no rocker pressure on them.
7) adjust the sliders one at a time, move each one out until you feel
pressure, that's the rocker pressing against the valve stem, the move it
back one notch. then tighten the adjusting nut.
p
GraGra
My first thoughts were you've probably tried all the usual suspects
like fuel supply, filter issues etc. etc. 'cause they're the bleeding
obvious . . so my seconds thoughts were the CDI could be breaking down
under load . . . the age of the unit might also point to this . . I
had a similar issue with an '89 Honda Lead with 30,000 k's on it. A
few bucks to replace it and hopefully you're tootling around again.
Let us know if it does the trick.
Good luck mate!
paul c
If it were the CDI, why would the symptom go away when he reduces the
air supply?
paul c
...
> 4) turn the crankshaft in normal direction (double check the manual, I
Oops, pardon me, I just checked the manual for the Helix (similar
engine) and it says to turn the pulley counter-clockwise.
meman
it is that low checking the valves might be applicable. Who knows, they
could have come loose/out of whack.
Get the index marker (small circle/dot - viewable by removing timing cap and
turning the crank). Get the index marker lined up center with where the head
meets the cylinder (not center of the timing hole/cap)...
then make the valve adjustments as mentioned.
If it requires a bit of clock-wise turning to get the above just right so be
it - it's ok...but yes, the majority of turn should be counter-clockwise.
"paul c" <toledob...@oohay.ac> wrote in message
news:Sll9i.283146$6m4.150491@pd7urf1no...
jonraymond
> i think he might be missing a digit at the end of the mileage...but even if
> it is that low checking the valves might be applicable. Who knows, they
> could have come loose/out of whack.
>
> Get the index marker (small circle/dot - viewable by removing timing cap and
> turning the crank). Get the index marker lined up center with where the head
> meets the cylinder (not center of the timing hole/cap)...
> then make the valve adjustments as mentioned.
>
> If it requires a bit of clock-wise turning to get the above just right so be
> it - it's ok...but yes, the majority of turn should be counter-clockwise.
>
>
> news:Sll9i.283146$6m4.150491@pd7urf1no...
>
> > paul c wrote:
> > ...
> >> 4) turn the crankshaft in normal direction (double check the manual, I
> >> think it's clockwise) ...
>
> > Oops, pardon me, I just checked the manual for the Helix (similar engine)
> > and it says to turn the pulley counter-clockwise.
It's really only 1600 miles. I purchased the Scooter, brand new, my
last semester of College after I accepted a job in South Florida. For
an upstate NY kid it seemed like paradise. Little did I know many a
big cadillac would think a motorcycle, let alone a scooter is but a
bug to be squashed. So turned out I only used the scooter for very
short trips to the beach. When I moved back up north I lived on a
dirt road for 11 years which is not very friendly to a scooter and
it's small wheels, so again not much use. Plan is to hopefully do a
compression check tomorrow just to see what it says while I wait for
the new vacuum lines.
tomcas
> I hope someone can help out with a problem on my 87 elite. Scooter
> has approx. 1600 mi. and I'm the orignal owner. Here's the symptoms:
>
> Starts and idles fine. When throttled up engine speed will increase
> slightly then it starts to sputter and die unless throttle is
> released.
>
> I've been trying to fix this on and off for about a year and a half
> and have just about given up. Initially I took the carb off and with
> the assistance of an old auto mechanic (experience with carbs) cleaned
> it out. His response was "this looks really clean, can't imagine it's
> plugged". We cleaned it just the same, re-assembled and scooter was
> no better off. That was the end of that summer so I drained the carb,
> put stabil in the tank and parked it in the corner of the garage.
> Last year I purchased a brand new carb hoping maybe an internal
> passage was clogged on the original. Behaves just the same. Summer
> got busy and had no time to work on it, so again back in the corner it
> goes till this year. This spring I'm back at it. I did discover I can
> get it to throttle up while on the center stand in two ways: restrict
> the airflow at the air intake,
Wouldn't this suggest you have a gross air leak some where?
jonraymond
Well for anyone still following along here's an update. The plot
thickens, I think for the worse. Compression check showed 138 PSI,
air temp was about 55F, so cold engine. From what I've read it should
be between 156 and 210 or so. So I'm thinking cracked head , blown
gasket, rings, who knows what. So light bulb goes of and I decide to
check the oil to see if's got water in it or whatever. Took the fill
plug off and oil (well almost oil) starts to pour out. Not a huge
amount but definately too full. Also thinner than it should be. Yup
you guessed it, smells like gas as well.
Mind you this doesn't get ridden much, but I have changed the oil
about every year and this is definately a new twist. So I drained
the oil (didn't think to measure how much came out) and filled back
up with fresh oil. Put a couple of drops in the cylinder and checked
compression again. Now I get about 148 PSI.
I know the fuel petcock is working. Could that much gas have gotten
by in my repeated attempts to get it running correctly? Are my rings
toast? Is my engine toast? Should I sell the parts since it's mostly
in pieces now? What's it cost to get an engine rebuilt? Where do I
go from here?
Well I was planning on checking the bystarters tomorrow, so I guess
I'll still do that. I've seen references to 12V for 10 minutes to get
full extension. Is that about right?
As to the air leak comment, yes that's what we've been thinking but
haven't been able to find it yet (if it exists). Oh, and I checked
the odometer, and I was wrong....it's only got 1365 miles on it.
tomcas
Not good, but not bad, at least it should run,
> air temp was about 55F, so cold engine. From what I've read it should
> be between 156 and 210 or so. So I'm thinking cracked head , blown
> gasket, rings, who knows what. So light bulb goes of and I decide to
> check the oil to see if's got water in it or whatever. Took the fill
> plug off and oil (well almost oil) starts to pour out. Not a huge
> amount but definately too full. Also thinner than it should be. Yup
> you guessed it, smells like gas as well.
>
> Mind you this doesn't get ridden much, but I have changed the oil
> about every year and this is definately a new twist. So I drained
> the oil (didn't think to measure how much came out) and filled back
> up with fresh oil. Put a couple of drops in the cylinder and checked
> compression again. Now I get about 148 PSI.
A spoon full would be better but 10 psi increase tells you it not your
rings.
>
> I know the fuel petcock is working. Could that much gas have gotten
> by in my repeated attempts to get it running correctly? Are my rings
> toast? Is my engine toast? Should I sell the parts since it's mostly
> in pieces now? What's it cost to get an engine rebuilt? Where do I
> go from here?
Stop freaking out. Check for an air leak. It's weird because usually a
leak will really f up your idle and you say it idles fine. Just the
same, let it idle and sniff with some propane to see if it speeds up.
paul c
> ...
> Stop freaking out. Check for an air leak. It's weird because usually a
> leak will really f up your idle and you say it idles fine. Just the
> same, let it idle and sniff with some propane to see if it speeds up.
Seems like sensible advice. Lots of low mileage engines read low,
besides I'd bet the manual says to warm the engine up first by idling
for ten minutes. Plus the gauge could be out of kilter. Plus any two
people using a compression gauge will likely get different readings on
the same engine and if you turn it over long enough, practically any
engine that runs will approach 200 psi!
(By the way, not that it matters for jray's problem, but many people
have told me and I've read it over and over that the best test is a
leakdown. The motorcycleproject.com website has instructions on how to
make your own econo leakdown tester. A lot easier to pinpoint what if
anything is wrong, eg., valves versus rings, intake versus exhaust.)
p
meman
has approx. 1600 mi. and I'm the orignal owner. Here's the symptoms:
Starts and idles fine. When throttled up engine speed will increase
slightly then it starts to sputter and die unless throttle is
released.""
jonraymond
Actually I'm not freakin out, maybe sounded that way but I'm not. Just
trying to add a little humor to the situation. Yes I know how much
oil to put in and measure it, and yes it's on the center stand. As
far as throwing parts at it, well I suppose that's partially true.
I've been diagnosing this on and of for quite some time. Seemed like
a fuel problem and given the amount of use it gets seemed logical to
be bad fuel delivery. Hence the carb clean and subsequent
replacement. But spending a hundred bucks in the course of a year
ain't a big deal, at least for me. Same for the intake manifold and
vacuum lines, fifty bucks to replace 20 year old rubber seems prudent
to me. I've got them off anyway. As for valve adjustment, just not
my cup of tea and seems like I could do more harm than good. If I
exhaust all other options, I'll likely give it a try. As for what the
oil looked like, good color (amber, not dark or milky) just thin. It
clearly had gas in it from the smell and thickness. Screen was clean,
no metal particles at all. As for getting it serviced, I trust the
local dealer less than my own skills and my more experienced friends,
at the cost of labor I might as well park it out front with our free
sign we use to get rid of stuff (very effective by the way). I'm
also looking at this as a way to get to know how an engine works,
relatively cheaply. After 20 years I figure this owes me nothing, and
if I learn something along the way all the better.
As to the fuel delivery. I'm sure it's getting gas because I removed
the air intake line to see if the plunger went up when the throttle
was increased, it did and I could see the gas vapors. Spark cable
looks good and it will throttle up under two conditions (see above) so
I don't see why it would be ignition. If it were I would think it
would fail to throttle up under all conditions. Suppose it could be
and if I can't find a vacuum leak somewhere and the valve adjustments
are good that will be all thats left (air+fuel+spark = running). With
no vacuum on the petcock, no fuel flows. Petcock removed from tank,
good flow through tank screen.
So when the new hoses come in on friday, it will be reassembled and I
can try the propane suggestion. After that I guess it will be valve
adjustment. Thanks for the suggestions.
Turbo Torch
Spraying suspected areas with starting fluid, carb cleaner or even WD40 will
cause a change in idle if there is a leak. Your valves were supposed to be
adjusted at the first 600 miles and then every 2500 miles after that.
Chains and internal engine parts break in quickly during that first 600
miles. If you plan on using the scooter you're going to have to learn how
to do it. It takes longer to remove the side covers off the bike than it
does to adjust the valves. It's a no brainer process and the most ingenious
setup for valve adjustment I've ever seen.
You also need to check the vacuum circuit going to the petcock. If you're
opening the throttle and losing vacuum under load the petcock will close and
you bog out. Apply suction to the vacuum side of the petcock while
everything is hooked up normally and see if the problem goes away when you
open up the throttle.
Bike guy Joe
what you find and if it is the valves, I'll come and pick it up.
meman
"Bike guy Joe" <jetst...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1181218434.7...@n4g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
meman
toast? Is my engine toast? Should I sell the parts since it's mostly
in pieces now? What's it cost to get an engine rebuilt? Where do I
go from here?<<<
this is the freaking out he referred to.
Man, a got a well ridden 85 ch150 at 18kmi and it's running like a top (I
knock on wood) - there's no reason your below 2kmi 87 shouldn't be either.
It's probably something quite basic. at that low of miles, i think it's $
well spent AT LEAST getting a shop to diagnose this. Once it's fixed you'll
be saving a ton cause it's hard to find perfect scoot.
Are you sure you're not leaving out any info...something doesn't add up with
your posts.
You say you bought a new carb and intake mani. It had to be a used carb and
minifold, right? What did the orig ones look like (the bike has below
2kmi - one would think THAT is the carb and mani that's in better shape)?
Or did you buiy a brand new carb at some steal of a price to make your
recent purchase $100? I'd put the old ones back on.
You also say you trust yourself over the shops or auto friends...but you
won't do the valve adjustment and don't know what a service manaual is?
Did this scoot take a major spill perhaps?
There aren't that many vac lines to check or replace...are you sure you
a)know how to check/replace them b)sure you did it?
You replaced and gapped the spark correctly? Air filter is clean and all
parts correctly hooked up (no leaks)?
Is the gas in it as old as the scoot or last time driven?
Trust me, put it back togeher and limp it into a tech who can better help
diagnose. The first part you should have ordered is the service manual.
andrew.d...@gmail.com
> has approx. 1600 mi. and I'm the orignal owner. Here's the symptoms:
>
> Starts and idles fine. When throttled up engine speed will increase
> slightly then it starts to sputter and die unless throttle is
> released.
I just purchased the same model/year scooter a few days ago and am
having the exact same problem. 1100 miles, two owners. A woman bought
it new and gave it to her son-in-law approx 6 mo. ago, which is who I
bought it from. Obviously hasn't been ridden much...most recent owner
said he took it out a few times over the past few months...no
problems...just replaced the spark plug and he knows a moderate amount
about maintenance. Scooter starts w/ no problem...idles fine....as
soon as you open the throttle more than about an 1/8 turn, it dies. It
worked fine the first two times I rode it...but as I was making a
right turn the engine died, and since then the same thing has happened
every time I try it. I haven't tried any fixes yet...and I know almost
nothing about maintenance..so my question is: do you think its worth
it to try and get this fixed, or should I try to get my money back?
Are there common causes for this? The stuff I've looked at so far
seems to indicate either an incorrectly installed spark plug or a
bystarter that needs replacing.
jonraymond
> >>>Are my rings
>
> toast? Is my engine toast? Should I sell the parts since it's mostly
> in pieces now? What's it cost to get an engine rebuilt? Where do I
> go from here?<<<
>
> this is the freaking out he referred to.
>
> Man, a got a well ridden 85 ch150 at 18kmi and it's running like a top (I
> knock on wood) - there's no reason your below 2kmi 87 shouldn't be either.
> It's probably something quite basic. at that low of miles, i think it's $
> well spent AT LEAST getting a shop to diagnose this. Once it's fixed you'll
> be saving a ton cause it's hard to find perfect scoot.
>
> Are you sure you're not leaving out any info...something doesn't add up with
> your posts.
I agree it doesn't add up, but I can't think of anything I've left out
that I've found.
> You say you bought a new carb and intake mani. It had to be a used carb and
> minifold, right? What did the orig ones look like (the bike has below
> 2kmi - one would think THAT is the carb and mani that's in better shape)?
As I said, the original did look good. Yes it is a new one and yes it
looks good. I will say it looks like a clone, but appears to be
identical. Keep in mind both carbs behave the same way. So either
they both have the same problem (unlikely) or it ain't the carbs as
others have said here as well. Look at it this way, for a little over
$100 I got a new carb to try. I figured what the heck, I'll risk
that. If it fixes it great, if not, I've got a spare while I can
still get them as parts are starting to be NLA for this thing.
> Or did you buiy a brand new carb at some steal of a price to make your
> recent purchase $100? I'd put the old ones back on.
> You also say you trust yourself over the shops or auto friends...but you
> won't do the valve adjustment and don't know what a service manaual is?
> Did this scoot take a major spill perhaps?
Scoots never been down. The reason I didn't want to do the valves is
I hadn't really looked into it. Now that I have it looks relatively
simple. And I said my skills and my friends (who are very
knowledgable/experienced on engines). I talked to the local honda
dealer service dept. and they pretty much told me they did not want to
touch it.
>
> There aren't that many vac lines to check or replace...are you sure you
> a)know how to check/replace them b)sure you did it?
Vac lines are still suspect which is why new ones are on order. Again
for what it's costing to replace them I'm just going to do it. They
"look" fine, but I know looks can be deceiving based on my experience
with a 73 VW but I own.
>
> You replaced and gapped the spark correctly? Air filter is clean and all
> parts correctly hooked up (no leaks)?
Yes, I will check the spark gap again though.
>
> Is the gas in it as old as the scoot or last time driven?
Now that sound like you think I'm a complete idiot. Gas has been
changed many times.
>
> Trust me, put it back togeher and limp it into a tech who can better help
> diagnose. The first part you should have ordered is the service manual.
Yeah, should probably get a service manual. But it's not like it's
killing me to ask some questions. Thanks for the help.
tomcas
spark plug, restricted fuel filter, restricted shutoff valve. In your
case I would not advise you to try to fix it yourself but to definitely
get it fixed. If you don't want to get screwed in repair cost you should
do two things- get an estimate first and don't tell them the stuff you
looked at so far, at least not in the terms you have just posted. Better
to say nothing and let them wonder about your mechanical knowledge, then
to tip your hand.
jonraymond
Took some time in the lab to measure the bystarters yesterday.
Applied 12V between terminals, measured from end of needle to end of
bystarter rubber housing with a digital micrometer. I took
measurements every 2 minutes for 16 minutes on each bystarter.
Results:
new bystarter cold 85.68mm(3.373 in), at 16 min. 91.21mm(3.591 in)
old bystarter cold 84.52mm(3.327 in), at 16 min. 88.80mm(3.496 in)
So they both extend and retract. New bystarter has slightly longer
cold length and total extension, but I think they are probably within
tolerances and look very similar to Jack Stanley's data on his website
(thanks Jack). Movement starts very quickly with bulk of extension
achieved within 6 min.
Current spiked to slighty above 2 Amps and settled quickly back to
approx 500mA (within 15 seconds) for the duration of the test on both
bystarters.
Mike Lynch
Mick L
"jonraymond" <jhray...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1181006639.3...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
I hope someone can help out with a problem on my 87 elite.
Scooter
has approx. 1600 mi. and I'm the orignal owner. Here's the
symptoms:
Starts and idles fine. When throttled up engine speed will
increase
slightly then it starts to sputter and die unless throttle
is
released.
I've been trying to fix this on and off for about a year and
a half
and have just about given up. Initially I took the carb off
and with
the assistance of an old auto mechanic (experience with
carbs) cleaned
it out. His response was "this looks really clean, can't
imagine it's
plugged". We cleaned it just the same, re-assembled and
scooter was
no better off. That was the end of that summer so I drained
the carb,
put stabil in the tank and parked it in the corner of the
garage.
Last year I purchased a brand new carb hoping maybe an
internal
passage was clogged on the original. Behaves just the
same. Summer
got busy and had no time to work on it, so again back in the
corner it
goes till this year. This spring I'm back at it. I did
discover I can
get it to throttle up while on the center stand in two ways:
restrict
the airflow at the air intake, remove the air intake tube
tomcas
thread to a different person.
The typically test for a autochoke is to apply 12 volts and see that it
extends about 3/8" within 3 minutes. The needle only need to be
retracted high enough to unplug the port to allow extra fuel and then
extend sufficiently to plug the port not so precisely because it is
spring preloaded. Of course you should also check that its getting power
and that the resistor isn't shorted (bypassed).
With that said, none of your symptoms point to a bad choke, which is why
I didn't mention it. Think about it. If the choke was stuck in a
position so that it was always on (enriched) there would be some
indicators to this effect. One, you should at least be able to rev up
the engine for a minute or so when you first start a cold engine. This
is not the case, correct? Two, after a couple of minutes it would start
to puff black smoke then eventually flood out. This is not the case,
correct? Lastly, restricting the air flow would only make things worst
but you say it gets better, correct?
If the choke was stuck in the position that was never on ( un-enriched)
it would be a bitch to start but once it warm up everything would be
fine. This is not the case, correct?
Help me, help you. Check for a leak with propane like I suggested
before. Does the idle waver at all as this is usually a condition of air
leakage?
Have you seen this manual?
http://www.nighthawk750.com/maint/Honda_Common_Service_Manual.pdf
tomcas
> Fuel starvation, check the flow.
If this was the case,wouldn't he at least be able to rev it up for a
while when the bowl is full gas, and then it would eventually die? If it
didn't die he should be able to let it idle for a couple of minutes
while the bowl fills back up, and then he could rev it for a few seconds
afterwards. He seems to indicate this isn't the case and it never revs.
It's certainly easy enough to test.
meman
How did this turn into a story of your GT?
Anyway, this kid is amazing. i swear something ain't right here..it's gotta
be BS.
Testing the bystarter when there's no sign at all of any startup issues.
Why not test the passenger footrests while he's at it?
Buying used mani and ANOTHER carb for A SCOOT WITH LESS THAN 2K on the damn
thing (hello?).
Quotes of "thin oil", gas in the oil (it couldn't be all that UNBURNED fuel
from an ignition problem or possible valve issue he's smelling...no way).
He's done all this but will not adjust the damn valves to rule that out.
This one is amazing.
Suggest looking into the ignition...and he says the cable looks fine.
Yes, a quick visual glance at the cable should do the trick...now onto
testing the flux capacitor.
Nevermind looking to see that the cable is making a firm connection to the
spark.
nevermind taking out and looking at the spark plug after it fails. Nevermind
looking at all elec connections and spraying some contact cleaner on an 87
scoot. Nevermind getting a new spark plug and gap properly to test the
possibility the one he has is shot. Nevermind the fuel filter replacement
(or at least taking to test)...
He ORDERS vac and fuel lines. Who the hell ORDERS vac lines? Just go to ANY
auto supply and buy the matching size and cut to length. That could have
been done in an hour.
Thinks now might be a good time for a service manual. A service manual
which can walk him thru throttle/brake adjustments, VALVE ADJUSTMENTS, and
more.
I wonder how he'll do when it comes time to keep up with the other
mantainance items (air filter, final drive oil, install new rollers, clutch
shoes, brakes, and belt)?...back to testing the bystarter? yeah, keep
taking the bystarter off and on...they aren't RARE and fragile or anything.
And taking to a shop where even the janitor will know more than he's showing
right now...
No, that's outta the question - no $ to spend there. I never rec taking to
a dealer...but in this case...?
Jonraymond, i own that same scoot. Others here do too. You're doing it
wrong.
But, you have a near new, fairly rare, and another one of those perfect
scoots in your hands.
I think it's worth it to maybe AT LEAST pay for the damn diagnosis
somewhere (before you cause more harm).
if you're going on the advice of 'friends" as you say...
get new friends for this project (at least ones who know what the F they're
doing).
Where do you live? what is your email?
All my sarcasm aside, I think I can help. i have the service man and I want
to personally walk you thru the valve adjutment process first.
Heck, maybe even take some pics of this scoot, the spark plug (take it out
of the scoot), the CDI, the vac lines, carb and mani area the air filter and
the air box, the valve adjusters themselves ..as much as you can and post
these pics.
Maybe visually we can spot something...cause right now...you're doing it
wrong.
How is the order on the service manual coming along?
tomcas
>
> He's done all this but will not adjust the damn valves to rule that out.
He say's when he restricts the air flow it will rev up. While I suppose
the mis-adjusted valve might be the cause in this case it seem very
unlikely?
>
> Suggest looking into the ignition...and he says the cable looks fine.
> Yes, a quick visual glance at the cable should do the trick...now onto
> testing the flux capacitor.
> Nevermind looking to see that the cable is making a firm connection to the
> spark.
> nevermind taking out and looking at the spark plug after it fails. Nevermind
> looking at all elec connections and spraying some contact cleaner on an 87
> scoot. Nevermind getting a new spark plug and gap properly to test the
> possibility the one he has is shot.
He say's when he restricts the air flow it will rev up. While I suppose
a bad wire, weak spark, or bad timing might be the cause in this case it
seem very unlikely? However, putting in a new spark plug is the very
first thing he should do. I know he said the previous owner had just
changed it but I would replace it anyway. Good point meman.
meman
>
> He say's when he restricts the air flow it will rev up. While I suppose
> the mis-adjusted valve might be the cause in this case it seem very
> unlikely?
Man, when the valves are slightly off, you can get just about anything.
From dieing after coming to a stop, chugging at idle, no top speed...to it
not starting at all. Just a lot of weird things that vari upon how out of
whack they may be. And it may be they are adjusted fine...but he should at
least do the process and rule it out. It's too easy not to.
An intake mani leak can exhibit high idle, making it tougher to set idle,
lurching while still, and risk running it too lean depending on severity -
lot's of weird quirks with running.
Ignition,
Get a new spark (I assumed he already put one in) - and make sure it's the
correct spark too.
I know firsthand the symptom he described when the coil wire was not FULLY
attached and gripping the spark...it started fine, idled fine... but give it
gas and it sputtered or died. I still say check that ignition based on the
info he's giving us (unless...he's wrong and there's something up with both
carbs, which I doubt).
He says the gas is fresh...how about the tank? How's it look?
Is there crud in that tank that can move in and block the feed when giving
it throttle?
All these simple things to check first...especially since it's been sitting
yet still hardly used prior.
Might want to take off that tank and have a look inside (why not?)...then
fill with some 87octane and check again.
Some video showing the prob is even better, but I'd like to see some pics of
this scoot. We may find there is a vac line connected wrong, or he's trying
to test things without the airbox attached, whatever, etc..etc.
He has no service manual...and we're talking about someone who is ordering
vac lines (or his friends advised ordering, or whatever) ...know what I
mean?
tomcas
>>>He's done all this but will not adjust the damn valves to rule that out.
>>
>>He say's when he restricts the air flow it will rev up. While I suppose
>>the mis-adjusted valve might be the cause in this case it seem very
>>unlikely?
>
>
> Man, when the valves are slightly off, you can get just about anything.
Yes, but getting better when he restricts the air flow is not one of them.
> From dieing after coming to a stop, chugging at idle, no top speed...to it
> not starting at all. Just a lot of weird things that vari upon how out of
> whack they may be. And it may be they are adjusted fine...but he should at
> least do the process and rule it out. It's too easy not to.
It is very easy for you and me. For him I don't know.
>
> An intake mani leak can exhibit high idle, making it tougher to set idle,
> lurching while still, and risk running it too lean depending on severity -
> lot's of weird quirks with running.
One thing it always gives is a surging idle, which surprisingly he says
is ok.
>
> Ignition,
> Get a new spark (I assumed he already put one in) - and make sure it's the
> correct spark too.
> I know firsthand the symptom he described when the coil wire was not FULLY
> attached and gripping the spark...it started fine, idled fine... but give it
> gas and it sputtered or died.
Yes, but would it get better if you restricted the airflow? His does.
I still say check that ignition based on the
> info he's giving us (unless...he's wrong and there's something up with both
> carbs, which I doubt).
Based on the symptoms, until other things are checked first, it is a
waste of time.
>
> He says the gas is fresh...how about the tank? How's it look?
> Is there crud in that tank that can move in and block the feed when giving
> it throttle?
Maybe, but would it get better if he restricted the air flow? He says it
does.
> All these simple things to check first...especially since it's been sitting
> yet still hardly used prior.
> Might want to take off that tank and have a look inside (why not?)...then
> fill with some 87octane and check again.
The best thing is to open the bowl drain, open the petcock, by sucking
on the autovalve if there is one, and seeing if the fuel comes out of
the drain fairly quickly.
>
> Some video showing the prob is even better, but I'd like to see some pics of
> this scoot. We may find there is a vac line connected wrong, or he's trying
> to test things without the airbox attached, whatever, etc..etc.
That is an excellent idea.
> He has no service manual...
Heres a free manual download of a similar bike he can use.
http://swakkanobi.free.fr/pdfs/honda/hondach125manueldeservice(incomplet).pdf
tomcas
yet? Is the idle smooth and steady?
http://swakkanobi.free.fr/pdfs/honda/hondach125manueldeservice(incomplet).pdf
tomcas
old. This seems to be a problem according to Jacks scooter shop
http://www.jacksscootershop.com/honda_info.html
"Elite 125/150/250 carb intake manifold cracking
The rubber and metal intake manifold betwees the carburetor and the
cylinder head tends to develop cracks over time, allowing air to get in.
This results in a lean condition (too much air for the amount of fuel).
Once the manifold cracks it will need to be replaced. The design of this
joint is not the best. The carb more or less hangs off of this manifold.
There is no support. A very good cure (which Honda did to the Helix) is
to add a strip of metal as a support. The support would go between the
carb and the cylinder head. "
So it seems to fit with the earlier reasoning of an intake leak.
jonraymond
Wow, flurry of activity. Not sure I can remember all of the bashing,
I mean suggestions but I'll try.
As for ordering vac lines, they are cheap, I was getting the manifold
anyway so why not. Tomcas, 20 year old rubber is correct which is why
I'm getting new rubber, it can't hurt. The way I figure it, if I'm
going to take it off I might just as well replace it given it's age.
It's not like it's much money.
The plug has been replaced, bought new plug from dealer (I know, silly
me) and it was gapped correctly. Yes plug connection is tight and
clean. I have checked the plug, it's not wet or carboned up. Can't
see why if it was spark related it would throttle up with restricted
airflow? Can you explain your reasoning on that?
I think I said this earlier, fuel is new. I removed the tank and
took off the petcock. To check the tank filter I put some gas in the
tank and let it drain into a container. Good flow, no obstructions.
The petcock vacuum shutoff seemed to work correctly, a little suckion
would cause it to open. Also carb bowl always seems to have fuel.
What is puzzling us is the restricted airflow allowing it to throttle
up, also when I removed the air intake hose it will throttle up. I
did the second test to see if the plunger moved up when throttle was
increased because up until then we thought it was a fuel starvation
issue. Well the plunger moved up. This has led us to believe bad
air/fuel mix. I tested the bystarter because that seemed to be what
some folks were fixated on in another group. Didn't make sense to us
given the symptons but easy enough to test end eliminate while I
waited for the new lines to come in.
The new rubber came on Friday, just haven't had time to put it on yet.
This is real, not fiction. I have seen two other posts with the exact
same symptoms just not any solutions. So the plan is to get the carb
back on with the new gasket/vac lines/o-rings and see how she
behaves. If I have the same symptons I'll get the valves adjusted,
maybe it will fix it, but at a minimum it will put that one to rest.
Tomcas, thanks for the pointer to the 125 service manual.
Thanks for the suggestions.
paul c
> ...
> Wow, flurry of activity. Not sure I can remember all of the bashing,
> I mean suggestions but I'll try.
jonraymond, I hope you keep this group posted on the developments, as it
is starting to drive me crazy too and it would be a shame to trash such
a virgin scoot. In my second childhood, I find something very charming
about an old bike that is almost new, like having your own personal time
machine. I speak for nobody but myself but I imagine some of the people
here who have lots of experience in such matters must feel a little
frustrated at not being able to see the problem first-hand.
I would be interested in this problem even if I didn't have a somewhat
similar one on my neighbour's 125cc suzuki that is twenty-five years old
but with even less mileage than your scoot (in this case, I have managed
to improve most aspects of the bike, except that it stutters on
'throttle-up' unless I remove the air filter! In your case I would have
been certain that the float seat was dirty, maybe keeping it stuck
partly-closed, but your putting in a new carb' seems to nix that theory.
My best guess right now, even though I have less experience than many
of the other posters is that it has something to do with the
valve/petcock, but i can't explain why removing the carb's air hose
would make any difference at all. But of course, I can't see what you
can see and I'm just guessing.)
p
meman
shops saying "i don't want to touch it" - that's such BS. Coming across
anyone/shop that makes this final staement is an extreme rarity.
It's been suggested 4 times now....bring it to someone to go over it.
As you mention, nobody here is able to see the scoot, just all this text.
Who knows the real story? Could be a bunch of BS. Has he posted a vid or
pics of this scoot? No.
Could be he may not have a clue and isn't doing things right. It could be
this kid is some lonely dude who just enjoys talking with people here.
Or...it is an actual mystery and could be beyond any msg board help
...therefore requiring some experienced techs to go over it and help
diagnose.
I'm just saying, for guy who "orders" vac line (rubber), buys a used carb
and manifold for scoot that's near new (supposedly 1600mi), STILL hasn't
done the valve job (wow. Just...wow)...it just sounds like this is that
certain person who might want to kick his claimed "auto friends" to the curb
for a bit, gather it up, buck up... and ante up and pay for a diagnosis at a
reputable shop.
or...
sell the thing in it's broken state to me or bikeguyjoe and get a scoot that
works.
"paul c" <toledob...@oohay.ac> wrote in message
news:ul%ai.13586$1i1.11968@pd7urf3no...
SoCalMike
> I hope someone can help out with a problem on my 87 elite. Scooter
> has approx. 1600 mi. and I'm the orignal owner. Here's the symptoms:
>
> Starts and idles fine. When throttled up engine speed will increase
> slightly then it starts to sputter and die unless throttle is
> released.
hows the choke, aka "auto bystarter"?
hows the fuel tank? screen inside the tank? vaccum operated fuel petcock?
chris...@gmail.com
> I hope someone can help out with a problem on my 87 elite. Scooter
> has approx. 1600 mi. and I'm the orignal owner. Here's the symptoms:
>
> Starts and idles fine. When throttled up engine speed will increase
> slightly then it starts to sputter and die unless throttle is
> released.
>
