More questions on non-electric magnetism. [was Re: Is non-electric magnetism -- excluding magnetic monopoles -- possible?]
Radium
incorrect NGs. So I reposted, crossposting them to the desired NGs.
Once again, I apologize for any annoyance or inconvenience this may
cause.
On Mar 24, 8:41 am, Uncle Al <Uncle...@hate.spam.net> wrote in
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.relativity/msg/6dca80f0fa3e9b18?hl=en&
:
> Nuclear magneton; no electrons involved. Since magnetism arises from
> conserved charge flow (Maxwell's equations), what could you mean by
> "non-electric"?
Okay. So what you're saying is that magnetism cannot exist without
movement of electric charges. Thats what I was trying to tell the
"Puppet Sock" guy. He disagrees but does not provide any proof that
magnetism can exist without the flow of electric charges.
By *non-electric* magnetism, I am referring to magnetism the results
from something other than the flow of electric charges. Magnetic
monopoles might fit the definition, but I am looking for something
else that qualifies as non-electric magnetism.
Non-electric magnetism does not involve anything to do with electric
charges, electric fields, electric currents, or electromagnetic
radiation. According to "Puppet Sock", this is possible but provides
no proof of this possibility. AFAIK, there are no known sources of
magnetism that completely non-electric. Since "Puppet Sock" thinks
there are such sources, I am challenging him.
As for the nuclear magneton, it does involve some form of electric
charge
quotes from http://www.answers.com/nuclear+magneton&r=67 :
"e is the elementary charge"
"mp is the proton rest mass"
So nuclear magneton is electric.
This clearly goes against the the person who posted the following
message:
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bigbang.richmond.edu!not-for-mail
From: Puppet_Sock <puppet_sock_at_hotmail_dot_com>
Newsgroups: sci.physics.research
Subject: Re: How can neutrons have magnetism if they have no
electricity?
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 23:37:19 +0000 (UTC)
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Bill Hobba
"Radium" <gluc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1174757362.4...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Sorry for the repost. The original thread was crossposted to some
> incorrect NGs. So I reposted, crossposting them to the desired NGs.
> Once again, I apologize for any annoyance or inconvenience this may
> cause.
>
> On Mar 24, 8:41 am, Uncle Al <Uncle...@hate.spam.net> wrote in
> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.relativity/msg/6dca80f0fa3e9b18?hl=en&
> :
>
>> Nuclear magneton; no electrons involved. Since magnetism arises from
>> conserved charge flow (Maxwell's equations), what could you mean by
>> "non-electric"?
>
> Okay. So what you're saying is that magnetism cannot exist without
> movement of electric charges.
That is not what Uncle Al is saying. At this stage we do not know if
magnetism can be explained by the standard Maxwell equations or if they need
to be extended to include magnetic monopoles.
> Thats what I was trying to tell the
> "Puppet Sock" guy. He disagrees but does not provide any proof that
> magnetism can exist without the flow of electric charges.
We already know it can eg the magnetic moment of an electron is a quantum
effect not caused by 'flow of electric charge'.
>
> By *non-electric* magnetism, I am referring to magnetism the results
> from something other than the flow of electric charges. Magnetic
> monopoles might fit the definition, but I am looking for something
> else that qualifies as non-electric magnetism.
>
> Non-electric magnetism does not involve anything to do with electric
> charges, electric fields, electric currents, or electromagnetic
> radiation. According to "Puppet Sock", this is possible but provides
> no proof of this possibility. AFAIK, there are no known sources of
> magnetism that completely non-electric. Since "Puppet Sock" thinks
> there are such sources, I am challenging him.
Your question not well formulated, which is why you are not getting answers
that satisfy you. Learn enough about the subject to formulate 'good'
questions and you will get better answers - indeed you will probably
understand what is currently worrying you is a non issue.
Bill
funk420
> "Radium" <gluceg...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1174757362.4...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Sorry for the repost. The original thread was crossposted to some
> > incorrect NGs. So I reposted, crossposting them to the desired NGs.
> > Once again, I apologize for any annoyance or inconvenience this may
> > cause.
>
> > On Mar 24, 8:41 am, Uncle Al <Uncle...@hate.spam.net> wrote in
I agree, your question may be a good one at heart. Part of the
problem is the word "electric", which is far to general for your
application. Perhaps you mean:
Does there exist any system with a nonzero B inside, and B decreasing
exterior to the system, for which everywhere in this system and on its
border divRho = 0?
The magnetic moment of a free electron is a good answer, but because
an electron is clealy charged, and because of our total lack of
knowledge of the internal structure of an electron, one would like a
better answer.
Cheers -
Autymn D. C.
> We already know it can eg the magnetic moment of an electron is a quantum
> effect not caused by 'flow of electric charge'.
How is that?
xx...@bellsouth.net
> Sorry for the repost. The original thread was crossposted to some
> incorrect NGs. So I reposted, crossposting them to the desired NGs.
> Once again, I apologize for any annoyance or inconvenience this may
> cause.
>
> :
>
> > Nuclear magneton; no electrons involved. Since magnetism arises from
> > conserved charge flow (Maxwell's equations), what could you mean by
> > "non-electric"?
>
> Okay. So what you're saying is that magnetism cannot exist without
> movement of electric charges. Thats what I was trying to tell the
> "Puppet Sock" guy. He disagrees but does not provide any proof that
> magnetism can exist without the flow of electric charges.
>
> By *non-electric* magnetism, I am referring to magnetism the results
> from something other than the flow of electric charges. Magnetic
> monopoles might fit the definition, but I am looking for something
> else that qualifies as non-electric magnetism.
>
> Non-electric magnetism does not involve anything to do with electric
> charges, electric fields, electric currents, or electromagnetic
> radiation. According to "Puppet Sock", this is possible but provides
> no proof of this possibility. AFAIK, there are no known sources of
> magnetism that completely non-electric. Since "Puppet Sock" thinks
> there are such sources, I am challenging him.
>
> As for the nuclear magneton, it does involve some form of electric
> charge
>
>
> "e is the elementary charge"
>
> "mp is the proton rest mass"
>
> So nuclear magneton is electric.
>
> This clearly goes against the the person who posted the following
> message:
>
> :
xxein: It would be a bit overreaching to say that a non-electric
magnetism has nothing to do with electric charge. Magnetic monopoles
may just be polar with the opposite pole hidden inside.
Gravity is an indirect consequence of electric charge but is not
thought of as electric or magnetic, and yet some electrical
communication must be present for gravity to be present.
On the opposite side of magnitude, Q-charges only exist briefly and
are reabsorbed into the relatively stable structure of matter
(electric).
Names, names, names. Physics doesn't rely on names: It operates no
matter what we call it. It just operates.
Isn't it about time we stopped using trains, planes, or arbitrarily
named junk to understand more of this universe. But our legacy is our
past belief. It should be "zapped - gone" so that we can use our
moderately developed brains to figure it all out from scratch again.
Bill Hobba
"funk420" <fun...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1174832467....@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
The question basically is do the standard Maxwell equations and its
extension QED need to be extended to include things like magnetic monopoles?
If they don't, then N and S occurs in pairs - if they do then you can have
magnetic monopoles. So far no compelling evidence has been found for that
extension.
Thanks
Bill
>
> Cheers -
>
Bill Hobba
"Autymn D. C." <lysd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:1174832688.3...@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Nobody knows the 'how' of QM - it simply is the way it is. The reason the
electron magnetic moment can not be caused by 'flow' (ie moverment) is QM
does not allow 'flow' to exist on such small scales. And if you can't
follow that (and your previous posts strongly suggest you can't) then I
suggest you actually learn about the basics of QM. The following is a good
place to start:
http://quantum.phys.cmu.edu/CQT/index.html
Bill
Autymn D. C.
> "Autymn D. C." <lysde...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in messagenews:1174832688.3...@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
How doesn't it? Why don't you tell me, unless you don't know either.
janas21
Some comments, first the magnetic monopoly was an try of the scientist
before they found the relation btw electrism and magnetism. They have
been done a lot of tries to make a monopole but of course they don't
succeeded.
of course also in the permanent magnets the result of the magnetic
phenomenon is due to the spin of the electrons. they are the so-called
Bloch areas that divide the structure in smaller structures and there
the spin of the electrons has a certain direction. the statistical
(meaning the directional summation according to a coordinate system)
sum of the direction of all the Bloch areas give us the magnetization
of the magnets but also of all the materials in nature. And this
investigation has be made with QM. In this low-dimensional areas, QM
describe very good and convenient the physics properties of magnets.
This is nature, QM can explain also how and why the electrons have
the magnetic spin m, and how they are distributed in the area of the
atom.This m produce the magnetization direction of the Bloch areas...
best regards.
maxwell
electron model that only involves electric charge but gives exact
values for the magnetic moment etc.
maxwell
> "Autymn D. C." <lysde...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in messagenews:1174832688.3...@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> electron magnetic moment can not be caused by 'flow' (ie moverment) is QM
> does not allow 'flow' to exist on such small scales.
only a statistical theory of atomic measurement it is presumptious to
deny what might be happening at the singular scale of reality just
because we do not have a theory to describe this.
Autymn D. C.
> Some comments, first the magnetic monopoly was an try of the scientist
> before they found the relation btw electrism and magnetism. They have
> been done a lot of tries to make a monopole but of course they don't
> succeeded.
http://google.com/groups?q=Autymn+auxiliary
> of course also in the permanent magnets the result of the magnetic
> phenomenon is due to the spin of the electrons. they are the so-called
> Bloch areas that divide the structure in smaller structures and there
> the spin of the electrons has a certain direction. the statistical
Donnaboo
The only two poeple who get up in middle of night to go bathroom sme
time run into one another.
Autymn D. C.: