Canada's Nuclear Industry in 'Financial Meltdown'
J Wootton
Canada's Nuclear Industry in 'Financial Meltdown'
OTTAWA, Ontario, Canada, November 23, 2000 (ENS) - A report released
this week claims the Canadian government spent 13 times more money on
subsidies to the nuclear industry than on renewable energy last year.
Campaign for Nuclear Phaseout (CNP), says that government subsidies to
Atomic Energy of Canada Limited (AECL) now total C$16.6 billion
(US$10.75 billion). The group claims Prime Minister Jean Chrétien's
Liberal government backtracked on a promise made in 1996 to dramatically
reduce AECL’s subsidies.
Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien. (Photo courtesy Prime Minister's
Office)
AECL was supposed to receive C$100 million (US$64.7 million) in the
fiscal year 1999-2000, but in fact received $156.5 million (US$101.3
million), argues the group.
CNP was launched in 1989 and claims support from 300 endorsing
organizations for its campaigns against Canada’s import of plutonium and
the export of CANDU reactors. The group researches renewable energy
alternatives and is lobbying for a catalogued inventory of nuclear
contamination and waste sites.
David Martin, author of the report, called "Financial Meltdown," said
tax dollars could have been better spent.
"Tax dollars are too valuable to waste on the failing nuclear industry.
AECL’s $156 million subsidy last year could have purchased 50 MRI
[Magnetic Resonance Imaging] machines and operated them for a year. Or
it could have paid for about 2,200 nurses for one year, or for 12,500
heart operations," said Martin.
Elizabeth May of the Sierra Club of Canada said AECL was in a state of
financial meltdown. "The Chrétien government is committed to ongoing
nuclear subsidies, but after 50 years of subsidies, it’s high time to
call a halt," said May.
AECL's Candu 9 reactor. (Photo courtesy AECL)
Campaign for Nuclear Phaseout coordinator Kristen Ostling compared the
$156 million spent on AECL with the $12 million in total funding for
renewable energy. "For economic and environmental reasons, nuclear power
should be phased out," said Ostling.
Martin's report alleges that the government has given AECL financial
support that does not show up on its books. This includes $1.5 billion
in financing for the 1996 sale of two reactors to China, $120 million
for two new privately owned reactors in Chalk River, Ontario, and $38
million for a "bungled" attempt to privatize AECL’s Whiteshell
laboratory in Manitoba.
The report demands greater disclosure and accountability for AECL which
it says has not filed corporate plans with parliament since 1995.
AECL spokesman Larry Shewchuk said Martin's figures are wrong. "It is an
old campaign of Martin's and every year he revives it using bogus
figures," said Shewchuk.
The company's most recent annual report shows parliamentary
appropriations totalled $102.4 million for the past fiscal year
(1999-2000) for research operations. Shewchuk pointed out that the
report is reviewed and scrutinized by Canada's Auditor General.
There was a further $8 million provided to cover the cost of Y2K
upgrades. All government crown corporations received Y2K funding from
government.
"This puts our total funding from government last year at $110 million,
a number confirmed by the Auditor General. Where, or how, Mr. Martin
gets $156.5 million is beyond me. But his numbers have never been right
before so this doesn't surprise me.
"AECL's funding level was $177 million only a few years ago, so clearly
the government has reduced funding of AECL."
Shewchuk said Martin's figure of $16.6 billion in funding should
actually be closer to $6.3 billion since 1952.
"A large portion of this money was spent via AECL to develop nuclear
medicine technologies which is used today to diagnose and treat cancer.
AECL's NRU reactor in Chalk River, to this day, produces the world's
majority of isotopes used for cancer diagnosis and treatment."
Testing at AECL's Chalk River lab in Ontario. (Photo courtesy AECL)
CNP's report was released Tuesday, prior to yesterday's release of an
election survey undertaken by a coalition of environment and public
interest groups, including CNP, Canadian Environmental Law Association,
Greenpeace Canada and Sierra Club.
Parties running for Canada's November 27 federal election were polled on
their policy toward the nuclear industry. The poll found the Liberal
government would continue funding the nuclear industry and envisages
nuclear power as an ongoing part of Canada’s energy mix.
The Canadian Alliance is undecided about whether subsidies should
continue and the Progressive-Conservative Party did not respond.
The Bloc Quebecois, New Democratic Party and Green Party believe that
federal subsidies to AECL should be halted. All three parties argued
against allowing nuclear energy greenhouse gas emission credits under
the Kyoto Protocol.
The NDP stated that "for the most part, federal funding for, and
subsidies to AECL should be ended by 2002." But it added that "funding
for nuclear medicine research, and nuclear diagnostic and therapeutic
treatments should be continued."
Both the Bloc and Green parties responded that nuclear subsidies should
be redirected towards renewable energy.
J Wootton
> http://ens.lycos.com/
> Canada's Nuclear Industry in 'Financial Meltdown'
>
> OTTAWA, Ontario, Canada, November 23, 2000 (ENS) - A report released
> this week claims the Canadian government spent 13 times more money on
> subsidies to the nuclear industry than on renewable energy last year.
>
> Campaign for Nuclear Phaseout (CNP), says that government subsidies to
> Atomic Energy of Canada Limited (AECL) now total C$16.6 billion
> (US$10.75 billion). The group claims Prime Minister Jean Chrétien's
> Liberal government backtracked on a promise made in 1996 to dramatically
> reduce AECL’s subsidies.
He won the election last night. His term wasn't up for another year and a
half. One of the bills left "hanging' involved the environment.
J
fungee
J Wootton <jwoo...@home.com> wrote:
> http://ens.lycos.com/
> Canada's Nuclear Industry in 'Financial Meltdown'
>
> OTTAWA, Ontario, Canada, November 23, 2000 (ENS) - A report released
> this week claims the Canadian government spent 13 times more money on
> subsidies to the nuclear industry than on renewable energy last year.
In 1998, Canada produced 67.463 billion kWh of electricity from nuclear,
and 4.396 billion from renewables. That's a factor of 15, so maybe they
should up the nuclear funding. :-)
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/world/country/cntry_CA.html
> AECL’s $156 million subsidy last year could have purchased 50 MRI
> [Magnetic Resonance Imaging] machines and operated them for a year. Or
> it could have paid for about 2,200 nurses for one year, or for 12,500
> heart operations," said Martin.
"A large portion of this money was spent via AECL to develop nuclear
medicine technologies which is used today to diagnose and treat
cancer. "
>"For economic and environmental reasons, nuclear power
> should be phased out," said Ostling.
Yeah, coal's a lot cleaner, huh?
> AECL spokesman Larry Shewchuk said Martin's figures are wrong. "It is
an
> old campaign of Martin's and every year he revives it using bogus
> figures," said Shewchuk.
>
> The company's most recent annual report shows parliamentary
> appropriations totalled $102.4 million for the past fiscal year
> (1999-2000) for research operations. Shewchuk pointed out that the
> report is reviewed and scrutinized by Canada's Auditor General.
> "This puts our total funding from government last year at $110
million,
> a number confirmed by the Auditor General. Where, or how, Mr. Martin
> gets $156.5 million is beyond me. But his numbers have never been
right
> before so this doesn't surprise me.
> Shewchuk said Martin's figure of $16.6 billion in funding should
> actually be closer to $6.3 billion since 1952.
>
> "A large portion of this money was spent via AECL to develop nuclear
> medicine technologies which is used today to diagnose and treat
cancer.
> AECL's NRU reactor in Chalk River, to this day, produces the world's
> majority of isotopes used for cancer diagnosis and treatment."
>
> Both the Bloc and Green parties responded that nuclear subsidies
should
> be redirected towards renewable energy.
Not MRI's, nurses or heart transplants?
Why not let each energy source compete on a level playing field?
Because utilities will build coal plants.
--
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of spam will help me beta test new virii, mailbombs, and/or DoS attacks.
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Before you buy.
J Wootton
> In article <3A23AD1C...@home.com>,
> J Wootton <jwoo...@home.com> wrote:
> > http://ens.lycos.com/
> > Canada's Nuclear Industry in 'Financial Meltdown'
> >
> > OTTAWA, Ontario, Canada, November 23, 2000 (ENS) - A report released
> > this week claims the Canadian government spent 13 times more money on
> > subsidies to the nuclear industry than on renewable energy last year.
>
> In 1998, Canada produced 67.463 billion kWh of electricity from nuclear,
> and 4.396 billion from renewables. That's a factor of 15, so maybe they
> should up the nuclear funding. :-)
> http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/world/country/cntry_CA.html
>
Well, what exactly have they used the subsidy $$ for? (if you know)
http://www.ccnr.org/sunset1.html
J
karljo...@my-deja.com
> Canada's Nuclear Industry in 'Financial Meltdown'
>
> OTTAWA, Ontario, Canada, November 23, 2000 (ENS) - A report released
> this week claims the Canadian government spent 13 times more money on
> subsidies to the nuclear industry than on renewable energy last year.
13 times the subsidy for 15 times the energy? Where's the problem?
> Campaign for Nuclear Phaseout (CNP), says that government subsidies to
> Atomic Energy of Canada Limited (AECL) now total C$16.6 billion
> (US$10.75 billion). The group claims Prime Minister Jean Chrétien's
> Liberal government backtracked on a promise made in 1996 to
dramatically
> reduce AECL’s subsidies.
Chrétien just got reelected with the strongest mandate any prime
minister has had for about a century. Sounds like the Canadian public
is pro-nuclear like Chrétien.
Karl Johanson
John Hughes
> AECL’s $156 million subsidy last year could have purchased 50 MRI
> [Magnetic Resonance Imaging] machines and operated them for a year.
Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Imaging. The "nuclear" was dropped when MRI
went commercial to give it a better public image. This machine was
developed using nuclear research money.
http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/bae/research/blanchard/www/465/textbook/imaging/
projects/MRI/project/history.html
John Hughes
J Wootton
> J Wootton <jwoo...@home.com> wrote:
> > AECL’s $156 million subsidy last year could have purchased 50 MRI
> > [Magnetic Resonance Imaging] machines and operated them for a year.
>
> Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Imaging. The "nuclear" was dropped when MRI
> went commercial to give it a better public image. This machine was
> developed using nuclear research money.
>
> http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/bae/research/blanchard/www/465/textbook/imaging/
> projects/MRI/project/history.html
Thanks,
I think you've pointed that out before. And I've told you that we Canadians
are and have been forced to go to other provinces or to the US (those who
have the $$) to get timely healthcare due to the lack of such equipment (and
staff) here.
So the $$ are going to nuclear energy instead of nuclear medicine.
IMO
J
fungee
J Wootton <jwoo...@home.com> wrote:
> So the $$ are going to nuclear energy instead of nuclear medicine.
Some of the dollars are undoubtedly going to nuclear energy. Some are
going to nuclear medicine, as your post stated:
"A large portion of this money was spent via AECL to develop nuclear
medicine technologies which is used today to diagnose and treat cancer.
AECL's NRU reactor in Chalk River, to this day, produces the world's
majority of isotopes used for cancer diagnosis and treatment."
IIRC, millions are treated with nuclear isotopes every year.
If the government is involved, you can also be sure that some of the
dollars are being wasted.
--
fungee... Unsolicited commercial email (spam) is not desired. Senders
of spam will help me beta test new virii, mailbombs, and/or DoS attacks.
Sending spam to this address constitutes agreement to these terms.
J Wootton
fungee wrote:
> In article <3A253385...@home.com>,
> J Wootton <jwoo...@home.com> wrote:
>
> > So the $$ are going to nuclear energy instead of nuclear medicine.
>
> Some of the dollars are undoubtedly going to nuclear energy. Some are
> going to nuclear medicine, as your post stated:
>
> "A large portion of this money was spent via AECL to develop nuclear
> medicine technologies which is used today to diagnose and treat cancer.
> AECL's NRU reactor in Chalk River, to this day, produces the world's
> majority of isotopes used for cancer diagnosis and treatment."
Wonder who they sell the isotopes to? Canadian? American?
> IIRC, millions are treated with nuclear isotopes every year.
Wonder where? The last three cancer people I met never made it to treatment
due to long wait lists.
> If the government is involved, you can also be sure that some of the
> dollars are being wasted.
Yes
J Wootton
> fungee wrote:
>
> > In article <3A253385...@home.com>,
> > J Wootton <jwoo...@home.com> wrote:
> >
> > > So the $$ are going to nuclear energy instead of nuclear medicine.
> >
> > Some of the dollars are undoubtedly going to nuclear energy. Some are
> > going to nuclear medicine, as your post stated:
> >
> > "A large portion of this money was spent via AECL to develop nuclear
> > medicine technologies which is used today to diagnose and treat cancer.
> > AECL's NRU reactor in Chalk River, to this day, produces the world's
> > majority of isotopes used for cancer diagnosis and treatment."
>
> Wonder who they sell the isotopes to? Canadian? American?
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fungee
J Wootton <jwoo...@home.com> wrote:
>
>
> fungee wrote:
>
> > In article <3A253385...@home.com>,
> > J Wootton <jwoo...@home.com> wrote:
> >
> > "A large portion of this money was spent via AECL to develop nuclear
> > medicine technologies which is used today to diagnose and treat
cancer.
> > AECL's NRU reactor in Chalk River, to this day, produces the world's
> > majority of isotopes used for cancer diagnosis and treatment."
>
> Wonder who they sell the isotopes to? Canadian? American?
I don't know for sure, but likely a lot to the US as well as everyone
else. I found this quickly:
Currently, 95% of all medical isotopes are produced outside the United
States. (http://www.fftf.org/reports/medical/4_0.htm)
An estimated 10 to 12 million nuclear medicine imaging and therapeutic
procedures are performed each year in the United States.
(http://www.snm.org/nuclear/facts.html)
U.S. researchers use medical isotopes to perform 36,000 diagnostic
procedures daily and 50,000 therapies annually, along with 100 million
lab tests annually.
(http://www.lanl.gov/worldview/news/releases/archive/00-120.html)
About 430,000 nuclear medicine procedures are performed in Australia
(population 19 million) each year, and demand for radioisotopes is
increasing rapidly. (http://www.uic.com.au/nip26.htm)
>
> > IIRC, millions are treated with nuclear isotopes every year.
>
> Wonder where? The last three cancer people I met never made it to
treatment
> due to long wait lists.
What a mess. Here in the US, I was astonished when I called a
dermatologist to have a mole looked at. Said it would be about four
months. If it were malignant, I could have been dead by then. Family
doctor looked at it the next day. Making people wait makes the
situation worse, or worse. What can be done, though?
Richard Bossard
> Thanks,
> I think you've pointed that out before. And I've told you that we
Canadians
> are and have been forced to go to other provinces or to the US (those who
> have the $$) to get timely healthcare due to the lack of such equipment
(and
> staff) here.
>
> J
And to think that there are those in the US who want to nationalize our
health care and make it just like the Canadian system.
Rick
J Wootton
It used to work very well, until last 10/12 years ago (Interesting..I just
realized that's about how long our PM has been in power). There are so many
problems now..mostly it's about $$ (cutbacks to save, laying off nurses,
doctors going into specialties because they are either bored or want more $$
than the system will pay them, not enough investment in equipment, closing of
hospital beds, incompetent doctors (see sci.med), Feds cutback to Provinces,
provinces cutback to local hospitals, mismanagement of reorganization of
hospital structuring, none of them anticipated the needs of the "boomers",
disparate political ideologies about whether privatization is a good idea or
not, 15-minute assembly-line appointments, no time for complicated cases,
systemic inefficiencies....blah..blah..blah.
Bottom line? If you are or know someone VIP or have $$, you get excellent
health care. Sounds pretty much like the US to me except in the US there are
many who have none. But if you are getting lousy healthcare, what's the diff?
IMO
J
Don Libby
>
> What can be done, though?
>
Quoth Ben Franklin (until now, the only President of the United States
who was never President of the United States ;-) "An ounce of prevention
is worth a pound of cure". Replace polluting coal plants with nuclear
power plants and a lower proportion of people will become ill as a
result of electricity production.
-dl
--
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* Replace "never.spam" with "dlibby" to reply by e-mail *
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Tim O'Flaherty
Richard Bossard wrote in message
<3a25924e$0$242$73a6...@reader.city-net.com>...
>
>And to think that there are those in the US who want to nationalize our
>health care and make it just like the Canadian system.
Well for the 46 million uninsured, many children, it certainly coudn't be
worse.
Regards,
Tim O'Flaherty
charliew
Tim O'Flaherty <pinw...@attcanada.net> wrote in message
news:OJBW5.200$t3....@tor-nn1.netcom.ca...
Of course not! We're going to make it worse for 210 million, just so 46
million can have it better. Or better yet, why not make it so the other 210
million are as bad off as the 46 million you are so concerned for. At least
at that point, you could claim that we have equal opportunity AND equal
outcome.
Scott Nudds
: Of course not! We're going to make it worse for 210 million, just so 46
: million can have it better.
What "good christian" charliew would rather not have people know is that
the result of the Canadian Medical system - damaged by a decade of
conservative fiscal mismanagement - still produces results that are
superior to the U.S. system. Canadians continue to live longer than their
U.S. counterparts, and the Canadian system continues to consume less money
per person than the U.S. system does.
Why does Conservative Charliew hate the American public?
"They forgot to mention that the people they put first are themselves.
Oh well, tell the peons (public) what they want to hear (but not before
you take a poll first)." - Good Christian Charliew - Mon, 17 Aug 1998
20:54:51 -0500 - alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Here is a Clue...
"When I, or people like me, are running the country, you'd better flee,
because we will find you, we will try you, and we will execute you. I
mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it
that they are tried and executed...If we're going to have true
reformation in America, it is because men once again, if I may use a
worn out expression, have a righteous testosterone flowing through their
veins. They are not afraid of contempt for their contemporaries. They
are not here to get along. They are here to take over..."- Randall Terry
- (Addressing a banquet sponsored by the US Tax Payers Alliance, Aug. 8,
1995)
fungee
af...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Scott Nudds) wrote:
> the result of the Canadian Medical system - damaged by a decade of
> conservative fiscal mismanagement - still produces results that are
> superior to the U.S. system. Canadians continue to live longer than
their
> U.S. counterparts, and the Canadian system continues to consume less
money
> per person than the U.S. system does.
It is true that Canadians live longer and also that they spend less on
health care per capita, according to reports I've read. However, do
they live longer because they have better health care, or are other
issues the reason? E.g. accidents, smoking, obesity, etc.
J Wootton
> charliew (char...@hal-pc.org) wrote:
> : Of course not! We're going to make it worse for 210 million, just so 46
> : million can have it better.
>
> What "good christian" charliew would rather not have people know is that
> the result of the Canadian Medical system - damaged by a decade of
> conservative fiscal mismanagement - still produces results that are
> superior to the U.S. system. Canadians continue to live longer than their
> U.S. counterparts,
I'd like to see some updated credible numbers on that last statement.
In addition, given the current sad state of medical care (two years for an MRI
in London), long waiting lists for referrals to specialists/treatments, poor
quality of family physicians, if any can be found, upper GI testing equipment
on Central Ave has been broken for over a year now, malfunctioning EKG monitor
in ER at UH hospital, I doubt with the boomers coming to a critical age (50+),
that we will be able to retain our record (if such really exists in reality),
not to mention that there is already a two, perhaps 3-tier (hidden) system in
place.
IMO
J
Scott Nudds
: > the result of the Canadian Medical system - damaged by a decade of
: > conservative fiscal mismanagement - still produces results that are
: > superior to the U.S. system. Canadians continue to live longer than
: their
: > U.S. counterparts, and the Canadian system continues to consume less
: money
: > per person than the U.S. system does.
fungee (fun...@my-deja.com) wrote:
: It is true that Canadians live longer and also that they spend less on
: health care per capita, according to reports I've read. However, do
: they live longer because they have better health care, or are other
: issues the reason? E.g. accidents, smoking, obesity, etc.
If you look at the results of studies comparing health care in Canada
vs. the U.S. there is no clear winner in terms of the ultimate result.
There are areas where Canada does better than the U.S. and areas where the
U.S. does better than Canada. Those people who are part of the medial
system receive on average equally potent treatments.
The problem in America is the large number of people without health
insurance. The problem in Canada is to some extent insufficient funding
(a result of massive fiscal mismanagement by former conservative
governments). In the U.S. there is significant money wasted on
unnecessary diagnostic services that make such services more convenient
for those who can purchase those services, but which drive up the cost of
diagnostics considerably.
Here in Canada, there is insufficient diagnostic services to the extent
that there is excessive waiting (although waiting that is generally not
medically significant).
Another issue for us here in Canada was the adoption of dramatically
longer period for drug patents before they expire. This has resulted in a
large increase in drug costs. Although price controls have on average
kept drug costs lower than in the U.S. and is why many U.S. citizens
travel to Canada (and Mexico) to fill their perscriptions. The patent
extension fiasco was also an action taken by the former conservative
government.
The current conservative government here in Ontario has also badly
mishandled the Ontario medical system. 4 years ago, it fired thousands of
nurses in Ontario hospitals, only now to find that it needs to rehire
them.
Scott Nudds
: > the result of the Canadian Medical system - damaged by a decade of
: > conservative fiscal mismanagement - still produces results that are
: > superior to the U.S. system. Canadians continue to live longer than their
: > U.S. counterparts,
J Wootton (jwoo...@home.com) wrote:
: I'd like to see some updated credible numbers on that last statement.
Then I recommend you visit Stats Canada and the U.S. census bureau where
you will find credible numbers confirming the fact.
J Wootton wrote:
: In addition, given the current sad state of medical care (two years for an MRI
: in London), long waiting lists for referrals to specialists/treatments, poor
: quality of family physicians, if any can be found, upper GI testing equipment
: on Central Ave has been broken for over a year now, malfunctioning EKG monitor
: in ER at UH hospital,...
I have had for various reasons considerable contact with the medical
system over the last several years, and found services to be very
adequate. CAT scans performed in minutes, hours, or days. All periods
that were medically sufficient. My family physician was found within
minutes and has proved to be quite adequate.
On the other hand I know someone who has been developing daily headaches
and is scheduled for a cat scan Feb 14. Ouch! That's far too long a
delay in my view.
In many instances MRI and CAT scans provide little new information
compared to previous diagnostic techniques - and they can be overused in
those situations.
What I would like to know is why the existing machines here in Ontario
are only used 16 hours a day. I would make much more sense to have them
running 24 hours. Partiularly NMR, where they need to be kept cold
through the night anyhow.
I'm sure having a test performed at 4am is less of a burden than waiting
2 months.
J Wootton
> : > What "good christian" charliew would rather not have people know is that
> : > the result of the Canadian Medical system - damaged by a decade of
> : > conservative fiscal mismanagement - still produces results that are
> : > superior to the U.S. system. Canadians continue to live longer than their
> : > U.S. counterparts,
>
> J Wootton (jwoo...@home.com) wrote:
> : I'd like to see some updated credible numbers on that last statement.
>
> Then I recommend you visit Stats Canada and the U.S. census bureau where
> you will find credible numbers confirming the fact.
We'll see, in the next 5-10 years.
Doctors are amongst some who will be allowed to incorporate, as of Jan 1.
> J Wootton wrote:
> : In addition, given the current sad state of medical care (two years for an MRI
> : in London), long waiting lists for referrals to specialists/treatments, poor
> : quality of family physicians, if any can be found, upper GI testing equipment
> : on Central Ave has been broken for over a year now, malfunctioning EKG monitor
> : in ER at UH hospital,...
>
> I have had for various reasons considerable contact with the medical
> system over the last several years, and found services to be very
> adequate. CAT scans performed in minutes, hours, or days. All periods
> that were medically sufficient. My family physician was found within
> minutes and has proved to be quite adequate.
Lucky you! Not so in London
> On the other hand I know someone who has been developing daily headaches
> and is scheduled for a cat scan Feb 14. Ouch! That's far too long a
> delay in my view.
Cat scan for headache? You gotta be kidding! Here they'd push pills for several
years (pain or anti-depressant).
Where is this lovely place that you live? 60 days is standard here for CT-scan (at
least)
> In many instances MRI and CAT scans provide little new information
> compared to previous diagnostic techniques - and they can be overused in
> those situations.
Agreed but if nothing is found on "previous diagnostic techniques" what's the point
of repeating "previous diagnostic techniques" when the problem continues and nothing
has been found?
> What I would like to know is why the existing machines here in Ontario
> are only used 16 hours a day. I would make much more sense to have them
> running 24 hours.
Good question. If you look up "imaging" depts in our local hospitals/labs, some time
is allocated for veterinary use. Also my understanding is that our physicians are
serving other (perhaps non-resident) clients after hours. But the bottom line
answer is those who have the equipment don't wish to pay their technicians and/or
the technicians prefer to work shifts for non-OHIP pay scales? Or they have lost
many technicians to the US (or any combo of).
> Partiularly NMR, where they need to be kept cold
> through the night anyhow.
??? No idea what NMR is.
> I'm sure having a test performed at 4am is less of a burden than waiting
> 2 months.
No doubt. Many are wondering that and can't get answers.
Scott, obviously there are some regions that are better and others worse. Hospitals
are corporations, they get the $$ from the Province and decide how they are
allocated (research, beds, staff, equipment etc). London's economy is the pits. My
impression is that to address this issue, more $$ are going into research projects
than giving timely care/tests to those who are currently ill.
IMO
J
Kym HORSELL
>charliew (char...@hal-pc.org) wrote:
>: Of course not! We're going to make it worse for 210 million, just so 46
>: million can have it better.
> What "good christian" charliew would rather not have people know is that
>the result of the Canadian Medical system - damaged by a decade of
>conservative fiscal mismanagement - still produces results that are
>superior to the U.S. system.
Shit, Scott, that's a tautology. ;-)
--
R. Kym Horsell
KHor...@EE.LaTrobe.EDU.AU K...@CS.Binghamton.EDU
http://www.ee.latrobe.edu.au/~khorsell http://cs.binghamton.edu/~kym
Kym HORSELL
>In article <90i1j5$9u0$1...@mohawk.hwcn.org>,
> af...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Scott Nudds) wrote:
>> conservative fiscal mismanagement - still produces results that are
>> superior to the U.S. system. Canadians continue to live longer than
>their
>> U.S. counterparts, and the Canadian system continues to consume less
>money
>> per person than the U.S. system does.
>health care per capita, according to reports I've read. However, do
>they live longer because they have better health care, or are other
>issues the reason? E.g. accidents, smoking, obesity, etc.
In some places these last factors are considered to be under the
heading of "public health". Simple public health measures are
generally considered to have a higher payoff (oops -- I mean to
indicate a payoff in terms of years of longevity; not the US std
metric of $$$) than what you could call "reactive medicine" that an
HMO other places might still decide its cost effective to pay out for,
e.g. bypass surgery.
But preventive public health doesn't have that same fat return-on-investment
ratio. Too bad.
Kym HORSELL
>Scott Nudds wrote:
>> charliew (char...@hal-pc.org) wrote:
>> : Of course not! We're going to make it worse for 210 million, just so 46
>> : million can have it better.
>> What "good christian" charliew would rather not have people know is that
>> the result of the Canadian Medical system - damaged by a decade of
>> conservative fiscal mismanagement - still produces results that are
>> superior to the U.S. system. Canadians continue to live longer than their
>> U.S. counterparts,
The news hasn't been good for decades. From The Economist 1995 data
we have life expectancies:
female:
japan 82.8
france 81.9
canada 81.3 <-- "the opposition"
italy 81
australia 80.9
iceland 80.6
finland 80.2
greece 80.2
austria 80.1
switzerland 80.1
spain 80
netherlands 79.7
sweden 79.7
germany 79.5
norway 79.4
belgium 78.8
ireland 78.5
us 78.2 <--- "world's best practice"
luxembourg 77.9
denmark 77.8
uk 77.4
nz 77.3
czechoslovakia 76.9
portugal 76.7
poland 74.8
hungary 74.5
s_korea 73.3
mexico 72.2
turkey 65.4
male:
iceland 76.5
japan 76.4
canada 75.3 <--- "opposition"
australia 75
greece 75
italy 74.4
france 73.9
sweden 73.8
austria 73.5
switzerland 73.4
spain 73.3
netherlands 73.1
belgium 73
germany 73
finland 72.8
ireland 72.7
norway 72.6
denmark 72.5
uk 71.5
us 71.1 <--- "benchmark"
nz 71
luxembourg 70.6
czechoslovakia 70
portugal 69.7
poland 66.5
mexico 65.6
hungary 65.3
s_korea 64.9
turkey 35.4
Of course, these are just raw numbers; they don't adjust for
the age structure of the relevant populations. However,
the G7 should be quite comparable.
From other data you'll find the US is a stand out (2 sigma outlier)
in terms of its division of health provision. According to OECD data
more than 1/2 of US health spending is in the private sector
(I always think "nose jobs" and "breast enlargements", but then I am
terribly unfair); the US is also a stand out in the %GDP it
spends on health -- around 14%. By comparison, Canada spends
around 10% of GDP on health with around 30% in the private sector.
Japan spends around 7% GDP on health with around 20% of spending
in the private sector.
J Wootton
http://www.nursingindex.com/
Might give you some ideas of the problems
J
Scott Nudds wrote:
> :
charliew
you to my kill file (yet again).
Scott Nudds <af...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca> wrote in message
news:90i1j5$9u0$1...@mohawk.hwcn.org...
> charliew (char...@hal-pc.org) wrote:
> : Of course not! We're going to make it worse for 210 million, just so 46
> : million can have it better.
>
> What "good christian" charliew would rather not have people know is that
> the result of the Canadian Medical system - damaged by a decade of
> conservative fiscal mismanagement - still produces results that are
> superior to the U.S. system. Canadians continue to live longer than their
> U.S. counterparts, and the Canadian system continues to consume less money
> per person than the U.S. system does.
>
(cut of BS that Scott uses in place of something more original)
charliew
Kym HORSELL <k...@cs.mu.oz.au> wrote in message
news:90jtgv$ie1$1...@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU...
> >> : Of course not! We're going to make it worse for 210 million, just so
46
> >> : million can have it better.
> >> What "good christian" charliew would rather not have people know is
that
> >> the result of the Canadian Medical system - damaged by a decade of
> >> conservative fiscal mismanagement - still produces results that are
> >> superior to the U.S. system. Canadians continue to live longer than
their
> >> U.S. counterparts,
> ...
>
>
> The news hasn't been good for decades. From The Economist 1995 data
> we have life expectancies:
>
> female:
>
> japan 82.8
(cut)
> us 78.2 <--- "world's best practice"
(cut)
> male:
>
> iceland 76.5
> japan 76.4
> canada 75.3 <--- "opposition"
(cut)
> us 71.1 <--- "benchmark"
(cut)
> From other data you'll find the US is a stand out (2 sigma outlier)
(cut)
Kym,
thanks *very much* for some eye opening data. It's too bad that Scott
couldn't occasionally back up his BS with something more concrete.
My observations on the data:
I suspect that the U.S. lifestyle has several flaws which influence the
data. In particular, I know for a fact that United Statesians (as opposed
to Americans) are fat, and under-exercised. This is BAD, and it is getting
worse. Even *very* good medical care cannot offset extremely bad habits. I
am not defending U.S. health care, but I suspect that the statistics tend to
get skewed when the studied population is un-cooperative (e.g., in Japan,
the diet is much better, and the population is much thinner).
charliew
> : > What "good christian" charliew would rather not have people know is
that
> : > the result of the Canadian Medical system - damaged by a decade of
> : > conservative fiscal mismanagement - still produces results that are
> : > superior to the U.S. system. Canadians continue to live longer than
their
> : > U.S. counterparts,
>
> : I'd like to see some updated credible numbers on that last statement.
>
> Then I recommend you visit Stats Canada and the U.S. census bureau where
> you will find credible numbers confirming the fact.
>
> : In addition, given the current sad state of medical care (two years for
an MRI
> : in London), long waiting lists for referrals to specialists/treatments,
poor
> : quality of family physicians, if any can be found, upper GI testing
equipment
> : on Central Ave has been broken for over a year now, malfunctioning EKG
monitor
> : in ER at UH hospital,...
>
> I have had for various reasons considerable contact with the
> system over the last several years, and found services to be very
> adequate.
Translation: They finally got your dosage of medication *just* right.
Don Libby
>
> The news hasn't been good for decades. From The Economist 1995 data
> we have life expectancies:
>
> female:
>
> japan 82.8
> male:
>
> iceland 76.5
<...>
> the age structure of the relevant populations.
HAH! Life expectancies needn't be adjusted for differences in age
structure the way crude death rates need to be adjusted for age
structure.
These numbers are not adjusted for socioeconomic or racial composition.
-dl
Scott Nudds
: Gee, Scott. Your BS is starting to get old again. I think I will soon add
: you to my kill file (yet again).
Good christian conservative Charliew doesn't upset me when he threatens
to stop listening to the truth. Good christians have made the practice an
essential part of their religion.
Scott Nudds
: > : > What "good christian" charliew would rather not have people know is that
: > : > the result of the Canadian Medical system - damaged by a decade of
: > : > conservative fiscal mismanagement - still produces results that are
: > : > superior to the U.S. system. Canadians continue to live longer than their
: > : > U.S. counterparts,
: > J Wootton (jwoo...@home.com) wrote:
: > : I'd like to see some updated credible numbers on that last statement.
: >
: > Then I recommend you visit Stats Canada and the U.S. census bureau where
: > you will find credible numbers confirming the fact.
J Wootton wrote:
: We'll see, in the next 5-10 years.
: Doctors are amongst some who will be allowed to incorporate, as of Jan 1.
Why wait 10 years when you can check the statistics today? If you feel
that the medical system will decline over the next 10 years, I have to
wonder on what basis yoiu would conclude such a thing?
: > J Wootton wrote:
: > : In addition, given the current sad state of medical care (two years for an MRI
: > : in London), long waiting lists for referrals to specialists/treatments, poor
: > : quality of family physicians, if any can be found, upper GI testing equipment
: > : on Central Ave has been broken for over a year now, malfunctioning EKG monitor
: > : in ER at UH hospital,...
: >
: > I have had for various reasons considerable contact with the medical
: > system over the last several years, and found services to be very
: > adequate. CAT scans performed in minutes, hours, or days. All periods
: > that were medically sufficient. My family physician was found within
: > minutes and has proved to be quite adequate.
J Wootton (jwoo...@home.com) wrote:
: Lucky you! Not so in London
Not so according to who? Not so in <your> view? Or not so in the view
of the medical authorities in London? And if it is there view, to what
extent isn't it so?
I certainly could be lucky. But if so I am perpetually lucky about
such things. Then again, perhaps I simply have reasonable expectations.
But lets be clear. My friend waiting 2 months for a cat scan to diagnose
the origin of his headaches is not reasonable in my view. If I were in
his shoes, I would have had a short discussion with my doctor regarding
the probability that the delay could be disasterous should there be a
rapidly growing brain tumor, or cyst. I would then seek alternate tests
to rule out those possibilities - if possible.
He on the other hand chose to do nothing - to take "the Dr. knows best"
aproach. Testing delays are therefore a failure on his part as well.
: > On the other hand I know someone who has been developing daily headaches
: > and is scheduled for a cat scan Feb 14. Ouch! That's far too long a
: > delay in my view.
J. Wootton wrote:
: Cat scan for headache? You gotta be kidding! Here they'd push pills
: for several years (pain or anti-depressant).
: Where is this lovely place that you live? 60 days is standard here for
: CT-scan (at least)
This is certainly not the case. The delay in getting a CT or NMR will
be dependent upon the benefit that the diagnostic technique provides and
the danger treatment without the procedure or with a delay of the
procedure will cause.
Stroke patients for example have extremely high priority when it comes
to obtaining CT scans. They go to the front of the line since it is
<essential> that the type of stroke be determined before treatment be
started. Treatment of the two types of strokes are mutually exclusive.
Now, if there is a 60 day waiting period for CT scans in london, either
there is a dramatically higher death rate due to stroke in London, or
there is some magical diagnosic technique in use there that the ret of the
world doesn't know about yet.
Which is it?
: > In many instances MRI and CAT scans provide little new information
: > compared to previous diagnostic techniques - and they can be overused in
: > those situations.
J Wootton wrote:
: Agreed but if nothing is found on "previous diagnostic techniques" what's the point
: of repeating "previous diagnostic techniques" when the problem continues and nothing
: has been found?
Do you have any statistics on the frequency of such events, and on the
results of the 60 day delay in treatment that waiting for the new
diagnostic produces?
: > What I would like to know is why the existing machines here in Ontario
: > are only used 16 hours a day. I would make much more sense to have them
: > running 24 hours.
: Good question. If you look up "imaging" depts in our local hospitals/labs, some time
: is allocated for veterinary use. Also my understanding is that our physicians are
: serving other (perhaps non-resident) clients after hours. But the bottom line
: answer is those who have the equipment don't wish to pay their technicians and/or
: the technicians prefer to work shifts for non-OHIP pay scales?
In any case it would appear to be a reasonably easy and inexpensive
method of increasing number of diagnostic tests performed without the cost
of adding new hardware.
: > Partiularly NMR, where they need to be kept cold
: > through the night anyhow.
: ??? No idea what NMR is.
Nuclear Magnetic Resonance
Scott Nudds
: These numbers are not adjusted for socioeconomic or racial composition.
The sad fact is that only in America does a person's race and social
status so dramatically alter the quality of health care they receive.
I thank Don Libby for making the stated implication against the American
health care system so clear.
J Wootton
TORONTO -- Ontario taxpayers could get stuck with the $19-billion debt headache left over
from Ontario Hydro, provincial auditor Erik Peters said yesterday.
Peters also said the Tories have exaggerated the money they claimed to have spent on
health care this year.
While the provincial budget set aside a record $20.3 billion for health care, not all that
money was actually spent, he said.
Instead, some of it will be doled out over several years, Peters said.
Scott Nudds wrote:
> : Scott Nudds wrote:
> : > : > What "good christian" charliew would rather not have people know is that
> : > : > the result of the Canadian Medical system - damaged by a decade of
> : > : > conservative fiscal mismanagement - still produces results that are
> : > : > superior to the U.S. system. Canadians continue to live longer than their
> : > : > U.S. counterparts,
> : >
> : > J Wootton (jwoo...@home.com) wrote:
> : > : I'd like to see some updated credible numbers on that last statement.
> : >
> : > Then I recommend you visit Stats Canada and the U.S. census bureau where
> : > you will find credible numbers confirming the fact.
>
> J Wootton wrote:
> : We'll see, in the next 5-10 years.
> : Doctors are amongst some who will be allowed to incorporate, as of Jan 1.
>
> Why wait 10 years when you can check the statistics today? If you feel
> that the medical system will decline over the next 10 years, I have to
> wonder on what basis yoiu would conclude such a thing?
See at the top. Anyways, I was talking about death rates (over the course of the next
5-10 years) in people not receiving adequate health care .
> : > J Wootton wrote:
> : > : In addition, given the current sad state of medical care (two years for an MRI
> : > : in London), long waiting lists for referrals to specialists/treatments, poor
> : > : quality of family physicians, if any can be found, upper GI testing equipment
> : > : on Central Ave has been broken for over a year now, malfunctioning EKG monitor
> : > : in ER at UH hospital,...
> : >
> : > I have had for various reasons considerable contact with the medical
> : > system over the last several years, and found services to be very
> : > adequate. CAT scans performed in minutes, hours, or days. All periods
> : > that were medically sufficient. My family physician was found within
> : > minutes and has proved to be quite adequate.
>
> J Wootton (jwoo...@home.com) wrote:
> : Lucky you! Not so in London
>
> Not so according to who? Not so in <your> view? Or not so in the view
> of the medical authorities in London? And if it is there view, to what
> extent isn't it so?
>
> I certainly could be lucky. But if so I am perpetually lucky about
> such things. Then again, perhaps I simply have reasonable expectations.
> But lets be clear. My friend waiting 2 months for a cat scan to diagnose
> the origin of his headaches is not reasonable in my view. If I were in
> his shoes, I would have had a short discussion with my doctor regarding
> the probability that the delay could be disasterous should there be a
> rapidly growing brain tumor, or cyst. I would then seek alternate tests
> to rule out those possibilities - if possible.
How would you do that if the physician refused? Are you in medicine yourself? (perhaps
that would explain why you have no idea what is happening out here in the real world.
> He on the other hand chose to do nothing - to take "the Dr. knows best"
> aproach. Testing delays are therefore a failure on his part as well.
>
> : > On the other hand I know someone who has been developing daily headaches
> : > and is scheduled for a cat scan Feb 14. Ouch! That's far too long a
> : > delay in my view.
>
> J. Wootton wrote:
> : Cat scan for headache? You gotta be kidding! Here they'd push pills
> : for several years (pain or anti-depressant).
> : Where is this lovely place that you live? 60 days is standard here for
> : CT-scan (at least)
>
> This is certainly not the case. The delay in getting a CT or NMR will
> be dependent upon the benefit that the diagnostic technique provides and
> the danger treatment without the procedure or with a delay of the
> procedure will cause.
>
> Stroke patients for example have extremely high priority when it comes
> to obtaining CT scans. They go to the front of the line since it is
> <essential> that the type of stroke be determined before treatment be
> started. Treatment of the two types of strokes are mutually exclusive.
Do you bother checking out urls when I provide them?
http://www.nursingindex.com/
2000-11-29
Ontario: The unmanaged world of
waiting lists
"We have no standard process for setting up a
waiting list or who gets on a waiting list. We
have no way those guidelines are consistent
from one physician to another physician," says
Doug Angus in the University of Ottawa's
Health Admin. dept.
CBC News
Article posted: 2000-12-04
>
>
> Now, if there is a 60 day waiting period for CT scans in london, either
> there is a dramatically higher death rate due to stroke in London, or
> there is some magical diagnosic technique in use there that the ret of the
> world doesn't know about yet.
>
> Which is it?
60 day wait for CT scan. Two years for MRI.
> : > In many instances MRI and CAT scans provide little new information
> : > compared to previous diagnostic techniques - and they can be overused in
> : > those situations.
>
> J Wootton wrote:
> : Agreed but if nothing is found on "previous diagnostic techniques" what's the point
> : of repeating "previous diagnostic techniques" when the problem continues and nothing
> : has been found?
>
> Do you have any statistics on the frequency of such events, and on the
> results of the 60 day delay in treatment that waiting for the new
> diagnostic produces?
No stats. First hand stories.
> : > What I would like to know is why the existing machines here in Ontario
> : > are only used 16 hours a day. I would make much more sense to have them
> : > running 24 hours.
>
> : Good question. If you look up "imaging" depts in our local hospitals/labs, some time
> : is allocated for veterinary use. Also my understanding is that our physicians are
> : serving other (perhaps non-resident) clients after hours. But the bottom line
> : answer is those who have the equipment don't wish to pay their technicians and/or
> : the technicians prefer to work shifts for non-OHIP pay scales?
>
> In any case it would appear to be a reasonably easy and inexpensive
> method of increasing number of diagnostic tests performed without the cost
> of adding new hardware.
New hardward is an asset. Employees are a liability (payroll, benefits etc).
J
J Wootton
> Don Libby (never...@tds.net) wrote:
> : These numbers are not adjusted for socioeconomic or racial composition.
>
> The sad fact is that only in America does a person's race and social
> status so dramatically alter the quality of health care they receive.
Same in Canada IMO and he forgot gender.
J
ant
J Wootton wrote in message <3A2D1645...@home.com>...
>Scott Nudds wrote:
>
>> charliew (char...@hal-pc.org) wrote:
>> : Of course not! We're going to make it worse for 210 million, just so
46
>> : million can have it better.
>>
>> What "good christian" charliew would rather not have people know is
that
>> the result of the Canadian Medical system - damaged by a decade of
>> conservative fiscal mismanagement - still produces results that are
>> superior to the U.S. system. Canadians continue to live longer than
their
>> U.S. counterparts,
>
MRI
>in London),
and here is australias public health care system hemorageing due to
uncontroled pathology and medical imageing service growth, my city of
wollongong(population less then 200,000 has 4 MRI units, a couple of dozen
ct scanners<average wait for a non urgent ct scan 24 hours, about a week
for an MRI, our hospitals are stretched to the limit of their budgets,
because there has been no cap on imagein and pathology services<provided by
the private sector> my suburb has its little medical imagedin and pathology
hub, two ct scanners half a dozen ultrasounds and standard x-rays, the mri
units are a few mins drive further south in the "city center" at last count
three, two recently upgraded to the latest tech, the local news covered it,
akin to the relocation of a pedestrian crossing, also in that nights
bulliten.
we actually had a small political scandal over MRI units thanks to our
health minister leaking that the subsidy would be reduced to a dinner of
radiologists, there was a flood of orders for new units or upgrades in just
a few days, over 300 units.
> long waiting lists for referrals to specialists/treatments,
argh, glad we are voteing out our conservatives in the next election.
>poor quality of family physicians, if any can be found,
argh, i have three within a five min walk, and ther is rumors of a
fourth<if the other three dont manage to prevent it> with the bigger
medical centers with three or four doctors on call. in the larger "high
streets"
>upper GI testing equipment
>on Central Ave has been broken for over a year now, malfunctioning EKG
monitor
>in ER at UH hospital, I doubt with the boomers coming to a critical age
(50+),
that really is appaling, we dont have problems with broken or missing
equipment, just not enough funds for elective surgery at public hospitals,
accident and critical acute care is still good. as is the pathology and
imageing sectors<a little to strong in the last two> but i would prefer a
political scandal about the overy supply of MRI units anyday to one about
not enough of them, one of the reasons it faild to rate as a big scandal
with the public, its hared to get people riled up about reduced wait times
and increased service levels.
>that we will be able to retain our record (if such really exists in
reality),
>not to mention that there is already a two, perhaps 3-tier (hidden) system
in
>place.
sounds typically conservative, our conservatives call themselves the
australian liberal party who in a coalition with the national party<rural>
manage for form government every so often, mostly as a result of people
getting fed up with the labor party, its just seems labor annoys people
slightly less fast then the conservatives do.
what we really need is a new political system with proportional
representation in the lower house<already have that model in the senate>
but thanks to a built in bias<each state gets the same number of senators
regardless of population> 200,000 conservative Tasmanians elect the same
number of federal senators as does left wing NSW with a population of 7
million or so. it is a problem as our senate ends up being kinked towards
the conservative partys<who do well in the smaller states and perform badly
in the large states> makes for a messy ballot paper, the NSW senate paper
last time round was 2 meters wide and 40cm high and you had to number you
choices from one to whatever the number of candidates were<over 150>, next
time we can stop distributing our preferences at the 69th choice.
so if my preferred candidate fails to be elected to the senate number 2
choose gets my vote, if that one fails number 3 and so on until someone
gets the quota of votes needed to become a senator, you probably have a
similar system in Canada, but for the Americans who have a much simplified
system that is less representative it is worth explaining the finer points
of Australia's convoluted and complex political system and one of the
reasons we believe it is important to make everyone vote<the fines are not
big> the laws dont force you to vote properly, you can chose to invalidate
your vote anyway you like. but for general protest votes you cant beat the
NSW senate ticket, every single issue party you can point a stick at is
registered, we have two fundamentalist Christians, a nazi, several greens,
some independents, one of which may be a communist, a couple of single
issue candidates and a big chunk of labor and liberal senators, prior to
the last election neither main party had a majority and had to work with
the independents, greens or the Christians to get any laws passed, but
after the landslide reelection of labor in NSW, we usually dont return a
ruling party with an increased majority, the left wing has it all its own
way now.
we have medical use hemp laws coming soon<the Christians and conservatives
are gnashing at the teeth> and already are trailing medically supervised
heroin injection facilities to prevent overdose deaths and help direct
addicts into medical treatment, we got a stern talking to by the US over
that, but as our federal government<the one that has to deal with
international governments> does not get on with our state government and
the states have a surprisingly large amount of independence from the
federal government. it turns out NSW could succeed from the nation of
australia with an act of its parliament endorsed by the senate. seems our
national federation contains opt out clauses for each state :-)
the premier does a good job, he has doubled the amount of national parks in
the state, banned the dumping of toxic waste in the sewer system, is
phasing out landfills and is encouraging recycling and waste minimization
programs, my local city is the test zone for a lot of new technology and
solutions, the greenwaste <household and council garden clippings and
pruning> fed power plant is a first, there is talk of installing trial
methane works at the local sewerage treatment plants to convert that waste
stream back into energy and fertilizer, with a carbon tax/credit system it
would turn a nice profit and reduce our reliance on coal, australia is coal
powered when it comes to electricity, so cheap we use it for heating in
many parts of the nation as there are no gas mains.
in the hunter valley<where most of NSW electricity is generated> the
conveyor belts run from the coal mines into the power plants hoppers, we
built most of the power plants in the hunter because of the availability of
coal and water, turns out the area also has hot dry rock energy reserves,
we are building a test plant that injects water into the rocks and uses the
steam to drive turbines, might be able to retrofit at least two of the coal
plants that are already there as they are on top of the hot spot <hunter
geothermal anomaly> and up north in Queensland we have enough energy stored
in rocks close to the surface of the crust to meet our current energy
demands <including oil> for about 2000 years,
if only we had a forward looking federal government, we have a cheap <less
then coal> clean energy source waiting to be exploited and they are still
screaming for greenhouse emission exemptions. very few nations have such
good hot dry rock energy reserves, so few that nobody was thinking of ways
to exploit them till some university professor or student had an unusual
idea and started asking why not, it turns out that the only why not is that
no one thought of it before, we have the drilling technology<thanks to the
oil industry>, we have the steam turbine technology <thanks to the coal
fired electricity industry> just have to put it toether, the site of the
hunter anomaly could not be better, the main grid lines already run from
the valley so it means minimal grid extensions, as opposed to the crookwell
wind plant that just opened, but the area has good wind resources so more
turbines are planed once optimal sites are identified, there is no local
opposition form the farmers, they like the idea, farm one is already a
tourist attraction, people are _paying the farmers money_ just to look at
the turbines 0_0. all the power the turbines generate has already been
presold at a premium rate to consumers, demand for green power is higher
then can be met :-)
ant
ant
J Wootton wrote in message <3A2D68E4...@home.com>...
>Scott Nudds wrote:
>
>> : > What "good christian" charliew would rather not have people know
is that
>> : > the result of the Canadian Medical system - damaged by a decade of
>> : > conservative fiscal mismanagement - still produces results that are
>> : > superior to the U.S. system. Canadians continue to live longer than
their
>> : > U.S. counterparts,
>>
>> : I'd like to see some updated credible numbers on that last statement.
>>
>> Then I recommend you visit Stats Canada and the U.S. census bureau
where
>> you will find credible numbers confirming the fact.
>
>Doctors are amongst some who will be allowed to incorporate, as of Jan 1.
>
>> : In addition, given the current sad state of medical care (two years
for an MRI
>> : in London), long waiting lists for referrals to
specialists/treatments, poor
>> : quality of family physicians, if any can be found, upper GI testing
equipment
>> : on Central Ave has been broken for over a year now, malfunctioning EKG
monitor
>>
>> I have had for various reasons considerable contact with the medical
>> system over the last several years, and found services to be very
>> adequate. CAT scans performed in minutes, hours, or days. All periods
>> that were medically sufficient. My family physician was found within
>> minutes and has proved to be quite adequate.
>
>
headaches
>> and is scheduled for a cat scan Feb 14. Ouch! That's far too long a
>> delay in my view.
>
several
>years (pain or anti-depressant).
>Where is this lovely place that you live? 60 days is standard here for
CT-scan (at
>least)
>
argh, se my other post.
i have already had a ct scan for upper spine related hedaches, and an MRI
is on the cards next year<when i get around to it> for the soft tissue
around my upper spine, ther may be muscular damage and compresed nerves
from a family problem with the disks in our back<slightly wrong shape>.
>> In many instances MRI and CAT scans provide little new information
>> compared to previous diagnostic techniques - and they can be overused in
>> those situations.
>
>Agreed but if nothing is found on "previous diagnostic techniques" what's
the point
>of repeating "previous diagnostic techniques" when the problem continues
and nothing
>has been found?
>
our doctors like to start with the simple blood tests, then move up the
scale till they find somehting interesting. IIRC australia is one of the
most highly medicated nations on earth.
>> What I would like to know is why the existing machines here in Ontario
>> are only used 16 hours a day. I would make much more sense to have them
>> running 24 hours.
>
>Good question. If you look up "imaging" depts in our local hospitals/labs,
some time
>is allocated for veterinary use. Also my understanding is that our
physicians are
>serving other (perhaps non-resident) clients after hours. But the bottom
line
>answer is those who have the equipment don't wish to pay their technicians
and/or
>the technicians prefer to work shifts for non-OHIP pay scales? Or they
have lost
>many technicians to the US (or any combo of).
>
whereas in australia most of the mdicale imagedin services are private, we
just swipe the plastic medicare card and its free to the end user, is is
the rest of the medical system.
>> Partiularly NMR, where they need to be kept cold
>> through the night anyhow.
>
>??? No idea what NMR is.
>
another name for MRI units, they used to be called nuclear magentic
resonance units, the nuclear name was found to be alarming people so the
name was changed to magnetic resonence imaging, the term nuclear is
refering to the nuclear spin of atoms, not any form of ioniseing radiation.
>> I'm sure having a test performed at 4am is less of a burden than
waiting
>> 2 months.
>
>No doubt. Many are wondering that and can't get answers.
>
the units in our hospitals are kept running 24/7 in case of emergency but
as ther are no signifigant waiting lists for the services there is no need
to schedule scans for inconvenient times.
>Scott, obviously there are some regions that are better and others worse.
Hospitals
>are corporations, they get the $$ from the Province and decide how they
are
>allocated (research, beds, staff, equipment etc). London's economy is the
pits. >My
our health system is federally funded so local economy makes no differenc
to funding allocation.
>impression is that to address this issue, more $$ are going into research
projects
>than giving timely care/tests to those who are currently ill.
strange system.
ant
R. Kym Horsell
...
> I suspect that the U.S. lifestyle has several flaws which influence the
> data. In particular, I know for a fact that United Statesians (as opposed
> to Americans) are fat, and under-exercised.
>This is BAD, and it is getting
> worse. Even *very* good medical care cannot offset extremely bad habits. I
> am not defending U.S. health care, but I suspect that the statistics tend to
> get skewed when the studied population is un-cooperative (e.g., in Japan,
> the diet is much better, and the population is much thinner).
Sure. What you say I'd have no argument with.
But for those outside the US -- mainly (I guess) from the point of view
of Europeans and/or Japanese -- it'd be the function of public health
measures to encourage exercising and a proper diet given
(say) the average amount of activity done. This may also be known
by the term "social engineering". ;-)
If you leave things until you find you're hoping for a good surgeon for
the bypass -- i.e. "reactive medicine" -- it's probably too late.
In Australia, for example, the population is bombarded (I'm
exaggerating!) with govt-promoted "Life; be in it" and various public
health adds like anti-smoking and anti-drink (even anti-gambling) campaigns.
(I know this isn't unique to Aus).
These things may largely be ineffective -- the Maddison Avenue
model may not work in every niche ;-) -- but they indicate various
programs are in place.
Anyway, it can be shown there *are* good correlations between health spending
and "top level" health metrics like overall population life expectency
(whether age structure corrected or just raw).
And as I've tried to point out in the past, it can also be shown
which segment of health spending -- e.g. private or public --
seems to play the significant part in inducing such correlations.
R. Kym Horsell
...
> HAH! Life expectancies needn't be adjusted for differences in age
> structure the way crude death rates need to be adjusted for age
> structure.
Oh? One would imagine that people of different ages actually come from
different "populations", statistically speaking. Some may be born
in periods where smoking was very prevelent; others when not so -- etc.
Over here we're still laughing at your other muddles. God save
the Wisconsin health system; or are you flying jets now?
R. Kym Horsell
;-)
I was waiting for the pan-global exercise in "race science" the implied
genetic link would need for its support. I'm sure the KKK have something... ;-)
J Wootton
> If you leave things until you find you're hoping for a good surgeon for
> the bypass -- i.e. "reactive medicine" -- it's probably too late.
You've just coined what, in many cases, is happening here (reactive medicine).
Thanks for the term.
Another one "bites the dust". Waiting list for bypass surgery.
I'm still awaiting news of 30 year veteran firefighter who was diagnosed with
liver cancer last April but hadn't seen treatment specialist 2 weeks ago. Indeed,
his appointment got cancelled because they were too busy. Meantime the cancer had
spread (to lungs I believe). He finally got in (interestingly for Nudds) to a
treatment centre in Hamilton. d**med shame!
J
J Wootton
> No, Jean I did not forget gender. If you look closely at Kym's stats
> from the Economist, you will notice that gender is indeed partialled
> out: women tend to live longer on average than men.
>
I was referring to "quality of health care" and gender. Not longevity and health
care.
Female cousin of a friend of mine has had obvious signs of thyroid problems for
over a year now. She just got tested by her famly physician and he hasn't even
referred her to an endocrinologist to find out the specific thyroid problem
(there's many different kinds of problems and full panels and screenings should
be done. Should. Aren't.
Her TSH is 80
Normal runs between 1.2 and 5.0.
If you know anything about hypothyroidism, it presents as being cold, depression,
sluggish, weight gain, sleepy. Bet ya "$$$ to donuts", same family physician has
been harping at her for a year (if not longer) to "just lose weight". Sheesh!!!!
I question, amongst other, why female patients get labelled here as psychiatric
before even basic blood panels are done.
J
Don Libby
No, Jean I did not forget gender. If you look closely at Kym's stats
from the Economist, you will notice that gender is indeed partialled
out: women tend to live longer on average than men.
-dl
--
*********************************************************
* Replace "never.spam" with "dlibby" to reply by e-mail *
*********************************************************
Don Libby
You are welcome. It is a sad fact and a national shame. However, our
nation is not the only one with socioeconomic stratification: the rich
tend to live longer than the poor wherever, and whatever color, they may
be. For more on these issues, see:
_Medical Care Research and Review_ Volume 57, Supplement 1 2000 "Racial
and Ethnic Inequities in Access to Medical Care" (Note reference on p.
211 to D. L. Libby, et al. "Will Minority Physician Supply Meet US
Needs? Projections for Reaching Racial Parity of Physicians to
Population.")
Don Libby
I did not question whether the data you cited from the Economist came
from period life tables or cohort life tables. Do you know which?
I questioned why you (wrongly) stated that the life table function "life
expectancy" needs to be age-adjusted. It does not. Apparently you did
not realize that life expectancy (which needn't be age-adjusted) and
crude death rates (which must be age-adjusted) are different animals,
statistically speaking. Is that not so? I learned these things by
studying demography and interacting professionally with other
demographers. When my more knowlegable colleagues correct my mistakes,
I say "thank you".
-dl
PS, how do you spell "larykyn" ?
Don Libby
>
> I was waiting for the pan-global exercise in "race science" the implied
> genetic link would need for its support. I'm sure the KKK have something... ;-)
Actually, it's a Canadian academic who is carrying on that nasty
business these days:
J. Philippe Rushton U. of Western Ontario
http://lrainc.com/swtaboo/stalkers/jpr01.html
As a sociologist I recognize that the sequellae of historical injustice
work in myriad ways through social interaction, making "race" a social
construct, and that the biological concept of race is specious, since
genetic variation within racial groups is greater than genetic variation
between racial groups.
-dl
Kym HORSELL
>"R. Kym Horsell" wrote:
>> In talk.environment Don Libby <never...@tds.net> wrote:
>> ...
>> > HAH! Life expectancies needn't be adjusted for differences in age
>> > structure the way crude death rates need to be adjusted for age
>> > structure.
>> ...
>> Oh? One would imagine that people of different ages actually come from
>> different "populations", statistically speaking. Some may be born
>> in periods where smoking was very prevelent; others when not so -- etc.
>> Over here we're still laughing at your other muddles. God save
>> the Wisconsin health system; or are you flying jets now?
>I did not question whether the data you cited from the Economist came
>from period life tables or cohort life tables. Do you know which?
Which one makes it easier to prove your latest negative theory, quack?
Kym HORSELL
>> the bypass -- i.e. "reactive medicine" -- it's probably too late.
>You've just coined what, in many cases, is happening here (reactive medicine).
It's not guaranteed to be original. ;-)
>Thanks for the term.
>Another one "bites the dust". Waiting list for bypass surgery.
>I'm still awaiting news of 30 year veteran firefighter who was diagnosed with
>liver cancer last April but hadn't seen treatment specialist 2 weeks ago.
>Indeed, his appointment got cancelled because they were too busy.
I hope the system is not as bad as that sounds. But I just fear it is.
Scott Nudds
http://www.canoe.ca/LondonNews/lf.lf-12-06-0021.html : TORONTO -- Ontario
taxpayers could get stuck with the $19-billion debt headache left over
from Ontario Hydro, provincial auditor Erik Peters said yesterday.
: Peters also said the Tories have exaggerated the money they claimed to have spent on
: health care this year.
: While the provincial budget set aside a record $20.3 billion for health
care, not all that : money was actually spent, he said.
: Instead, some of it will be doled out over several years, Peters said.
You are quite correct in your assertion that the Harris government has
been lying to the public of Ontario since long before they were elected.
They are a consrevative government. Nothing less can be expected of
them.
Scott Nudds
: > : These numbers are not adjusted for socioeconomic or racial composition.
: Scott Nudds wrote:
: > The sad fact is that only in America does a person's race and social
: > status so dramatically alter the quality of health care they receive.
J Wootton (jwoo...@home.com) wrote:
: Same in Canada IMO and he forgot gender.
Not so either for socioeconomic status or gender. Although gender has
been a target for improvement over the last decade or two as it has become
realized by the world medical community that women are at a disadvantage
when receiving medical treatments that have been optimized for men.
Wootton is correct to raising the issue, Incorrect for overstatign it.
Scott Nudds
: Actually, it's a Canadian academic who is carrying on that nasty
: business these days:
: J. Philippe Rushton U. of Western Ontario
: http://lrainc.com/swtaboo/stalkers/jpr01.html
Last thing I read about him was that he was back to wroking as a
mechanic in a garage back in Alberta, where he could be closest to his
right wing brothers.
Has he found a new home base from which he will further his research on
the association of male penis length and intelligence?
"With all due respect to
those dear people, my friend, God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a
Jew." Baily Smith Christian Coalition founder. (St. Petersburg Times,
June 26, 1994)
Scott Nudds
veteran firefighter who was diagnosed with liver cancer last April but
hadn't seen treatment specialist 2 weeks ago. Indeed, his appointment got
lungs I believe). He finally got in (interestingly for Nudds) to a
treatment centre in Hamilton. d**med shame!
Well, when you get the facts straight, I look forward to reading them.
Scott Nudds
: Female cousin of a friend of mine has had obvious signs of thyroid problems for
: over a year now. She just got tested by her famly physician and he hasn't even
: referred her to an endocrinologist to find out the specific thyroid problem
: (there's many different kinds of problems and full panels and screenings should
: be done. Should. Aren't.
: Her TSH is 80
: Normal runs between 1.2 and 5.0.
: If you know anything about hypothyroidism, it presents as being cold, depression,
: sluggish, weight gain, sleepy. Bet ya "$$$ to donuts", same family physician has
: been harping at her for a year (if not longer) to "just lose weight". Sheesh!!!!
Good advice. (losing weight). Has she taken that minimal step to
improve her own health?
Isn't a high TSH implicated in hyperthyroidism?
J Wootton
> Don Libby (never...@tds.net) wrote:
> : Actually, it's a Canadian academic who is carrying on that nasty
> : business these days:
>
> : J. Philippe Rushton U. of Western Ontario
> : http://lrainc.com/swtaboo/stalkers/jpr01.html
>
> Last thing I read about him was that he was back to wroking as a
> mechanic in a garage back in Alberta, where he could be closest to his
> right wing brothers.
>
> Has he found a new home base from which he will further his research on
> the association of male penis length and intelligence?
He's still at the University of Western Ontario, London, Ontario.
I posted his latest on sci.med sometime within the last few months. (from
coverage in the London Free Press and elsewhere)
No, I don't remember the subject line.
http://www.sscl.uwo.ca/psychology/faculty/rushton.html
http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/late/jpr01.html
http://www.psychology.uoguelph.ca/papers/winston/rushton.html
http://www.canadianfreespeech.com/updates/hilborn_backs_rushton.html
FYI
J
J Wootton
You are a first-class jerk! The man's dying/wasn't expected to last the
weekend and probably didn't.
FYI I e-mailed the firestation where he had served in the hope that they
could get him to faster care. Perhaps they did but 4 months from diagnosis
to treatments is "game over".
But you wouldn't know anything about that would you?..because you get
excellent and prompt healthcare.
J
posted to sci.med 11/01/2000
http://www.canoe.ca/LondonOpinions/letters.html
Cancer clinic too busy, but not the tax collector
I am writing this letter regarding the death of my father at 58.
We found out in early June he had cancer. He died on Aug. 17 without getting
a chance to see a doctor in the cancer
clinic because they were too backed up with patients to fit him in.
Now we are trying to settle his estate and we are being told we owe 48 per
cent of his life savings to taxes.
I contacted my MP to ask him where this money will be going and he told me a
portion of it will be going to health care.
Doesn't it seem unfair that 48 per cent of his life savings will go to
health care, yet when he needed that health care it
was not there due to cutbacks?
I hope everyone will remember this story when we go to the polls in
November.
We have to be aware that with the government in power, if something happens
to us before we turn 65, 48 per cent of
our RRSP contributions will go to tax. They are penalizing us and our
families if we die young.
We are not told this when we are making these contributions.
It is time for change!
XXXXXXXXX (privacy)
*******************************************************
another local person jumped into the thread... 11/01/2000
Well said, It has been five months since my father has been diagnosed with
liver cancer,He has spent his life saving
people as a firefighter. Now that he needs help their is nobody around, They
are to busy, Finally he will be seeing a
doctor in "London" tomorrow. I think its to late.
The problem is ,WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT IT!!!
XXXXXXXX
*********************************
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: London, Ontario
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 19:57:19 -0500
From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (for privacy)
Organization: @Home Network
To: J Wootton <jwoo...@home.com>
References: <3A0012D5...@home.com>
As today was my dads big hope that he would finally get some treatment
in London , They called and canceled his appointment and said that they
might be able to get him in, maybe in two weeks :( no excuse, but sorry
we are too busy. Yes this is our pathetic health care system.
Now that his health is going down rapidly, now any hope is lost.
you are so right...Taxed to Death with no return.
***********************************************
11/30/2000 (so it spread to his stomach, not his lung, got that Scott?)
I am sorry for your misfortune, My dad was diagnosed four months ago with a
similar problem, A tumor on his liver had
grown to 22 cm and within weeks had spread to his stomach.We have taken him
to several different hospitals in hopes
of finding some alternative treatment or just to get someone willing to try
to help.
Weeks of herbs,every natural vitamin we could think off had no effect. He
persuaded a doctor to give him chemo.Last
friday he finished his first chemo dose and now he is in intensive care ,
not expected to make to the weekend.
However I would recommend you to this doctor ,<privacy>. He practices in
immune recovery and claims to have
saved many lives by rebuilding your body's own defense system.
Please try him, I wish we had the time and resources.
My heart goes out to you and I hope this will help.
XXXXXXXXXX referral to immune consultants.
******************************************
Subject: Re: cancer trearment in Ontario
Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 22:57:03 -0500
From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (for privacy)
Organization: @Home Network
To: J Wootton <jwoo...@home.com>
References: 1
Jean it is nice to hear from you and I appreciate your help and input.
My dad is in intensive care at Henderson hospital in Hamilton,
After his first week of kemo, the side effects have been the most
painful and horrifying thing I have ever seen or imagined in my life.
How can someone this healthy and active be in so much pain and
discomfort. And all we can do is sit and watch.
I think at leased after months of no help or treatment kemo was the
was the only hope .This may have ended him sooner.
My dad is not just my dad, he is also my best friend.
I don't understand why this is happening, but I pray that he will
pull through..
thanks XXXXXXX (for privacy)
**************************
I sincerely hope you and yours (Scott) never get the "untreatment" that is
happening here in London.
IMO
J
J Wootton
This just shows how little you understand about thyroid. Look it up yourself.
J
Don Libby
>
> Don Libby wrote:
>
> > J Wootton wrote:
> > >
> > > Scott Nudds wrote:
> > >
> > > > Don Libby (never...@tds.net) wrote:
> > > > : These numbers are not adjusted for socioeconomic or racial composition.
> > > >
> > > > The sad fact is that only in America does a person's race and social
> > > > status so dramatically alter the quality of health care they receive.
> > >
> > > Same in Canada IMO and he forgot gender.
> > > J
> >
> > No, Jean I did not forget gender. If you look closely at Kym's stats
> > from the Economist, you will notice that gender is indeed partialled
> > out: women tend to live longer on average than men.
> >
>
> care.
Oh, then your comment is completely irrelevant, since I was referring to
longevity by gender by country, which is exactly what Kym posted, no
more and no less.
Scott Nudds
: > Last thing I read about him was that he was back to wroking as a
: > mechanic in a garage back in Alberta, where he could be closest to his
: > right wing brothers.
: >
: > Has he found a new home base from which he will further his research on
: > the association of male penis length and intelligence?
J Wootton (jwoo...@home.com) wrote:
: He's still at the University of Western Ontario, London, Ontario.
: I posted his latest on sci.med sometime within the last few months. (from
Again, last time I saw him, he was back to working as an automechanic.
Scott Nudds
: Admittedly NMR can be over-used/misused and probably was before Harris and
: changes came in (10-15 years ago).
Probably not as the diagnostic technology has only grown in use and
availability over that time.
J Wootton wrote:
: Example: Male friend and I discovered last Februay that we both have similar
: complaints about right arm. We both have same family doctor. He was sent for
: MRI last March. I was put on hold until I saw a different specialist who just
: suggested MRI.
Do you share a common occupation and medical history? There is bias
here. The question is if it is simply based on sexual discrimination or
other more relevant factors.
Scott Nudds
: They refused my friend a simple re-X-ray of her ankle (broken in Jan/99). She
: hobbled around with the foot on crooked, in pain...until Feb/99 when her family
: doctor finally decided to listen. She had to have everything re-done, pin had
: come out of plate, plate had eroded into bone marrow. Had to take piece of
: pelvic bone to repair eroded bone. She's got 14 pins through her leg with a
: "cage" thing around the whole leg. Hopefully will come out soon and she can
: re-start physio (almost two years gone down the tubes..unable to work..because
: dr decided she was just a whiner and there wasn't anything really wrong..until
: he ordered up a simple x-ray..sheesh!! (original surgeon retired before she
: could get back to him and referrals to specialists have to go through family
: doctor so IMO she got a very raw deal).
What you left unsaid is that she broke her ankle and was immediately
fitted with a plate and pin to stabalize the fracture.
What you document instead is a medical error. Errors happen all the
time. In the U.S. we regularly read about medical procedures where a
doctor confuses left and right, amputating a right foot when the left is
diseased, etc. What you need to do is show a pattern of failure that is
a result of whatever policies you feel are the cause.
Wootton wrote:
: As I said, Nudds is lucky indeed. The number of "nightmare" stories are
: mounting. Seems like some get great healthcare and immediate competent care.
Back in the mid 70's my father died due to complications of open heart
surgery. Surgery that is routine today, and was reasonably routine then.
I've received stitches without anesthetic. My neice was sent home from
the emergency ward with abdominal pains only to return 2 days later to
have her apendix removed. A neighbour had hip replacement surgery in which
the prosthetic didn't bond to the underlying bone for over 2 years.
Tales of medical "horror" have been around since the beginning of
medicine. In many cases - as with the cases above - no "mistakes" were
made. There is simply no guarantee of success with any procedure or
diagnosis.
Your case would be much better off if you could find more comparitive
studies like the recent one which shows that Canadians who have cancer are
slighly more likely to die than their American counterparts.
Scott Nudds
: > J Wootton (jwoo...@home.com) wrote: : I'm still awaiting news of 30 year
: > veteran firefighter who was diagnosed with liver cancer last April but
: > hadn't seen treatment specialist 2 weeks ago. Indeed, his appointment got
: > cancelled because they were too busy. Meantime the cancer had spread (to
: > lungs I believe). He finally got in (interestingly for Nudds) to a
: > treatment centre in Hamilton. d**med shame!
: Scott Nudds wrote:
: > Well, when you get the facts straight, I look forward to reading them.
J Wootton (jwoo...@home.com) wrote:
: You are a first-class jerk! The man's dying/wasn't expected to last the
: weekend and probably didn't.
Really? This is new information. What was his prognosis before the
cancer was found to have migrated to - WHAT YOU BELIEVE - to have been his
lungs? Was it his lungs by the way? Do you have that fact straight yet?
Wootton wrote:
: FYI I e-mailed the firestation where he had served in the hope that they
: could get him to faster care. Perhaps they did but 4 months from diagnosis
: to treatments is "game over".
Really? Now it depends on what kind of cancer he had doesn't it? If it
was some forms of Leukemia or skin cancer than he could have lasted years
without treatment. With other forms he didn't have much of a chance from
the initial diagnosis.
Perhaps it was prostrate cancer. Liver cancer. Brain cancer. Do you
know? If so, then what was his prognosis with immediate treatment compared
to his prognosis with a treatment delay of 4 months?
Wootton wrote:
: But you wouldn't know anything about that would you?..because you get
: excellent and prompt healthcare.
Actually, <I> haven't personally used the Canadian health care system in
the last 25 years with the exception of registering myself with a "family"
doctor last year.
Quite frankly, everyone I know who has needed medical attention has
received prompt attention (with the exception of this gent with the
headaches). By prompt I mean attention in what I consider a
medically appropriate time period.
Wootton wrote:
: Cancer clinic too busy, but not the tax collector
: I am writing this letter regarding the death of my father at 58.
: We found out in early June he had cancer. He died on Aug. 17 without getting
: a chance to see a doctor in the cancer
: clinic because they were too backed up with patients to fit him in.
: Now we are trying to settle his estate and we are being told we owe 48 per
: cent of his life savings to taxes.
The reason for this tax situation is undoubtely the result of the
removal of the one time capital gains deduction. Estates are taxed on
2/3rds of their accrued value and all elements of the estate are
considered sold at fair market value when the death occurrs.
I sympathize - as I am in the same situation. Once again, you can thank
Brian Mulroney for the problem.
Wootton wrote:
: Doesn't it seem unfair that 48 per cent of his life savings will go to
: health care, yet when he needed that health care it
: was not there due to cutbacks?
If the guy died in 2 months as a result of cancer, his initial prognosis
was undoubtedly that he would soon be dead even with treatment.
Shit happens.
Wootton wrote:
: 11/30/2000 (so it spread to his stomach, not his lung, got that Scott?)
: I am sorry for your misfortune, My dad was diagnosed four months ago with a
: similar problem, A tumor on his liver had
: grown to 22 cm and within weeks had spread to his stomach.We have taken him
: to several different hospitals in hopes
: of finding some alternative treatment or just to get someone willing to try
: to help.
Hold on. "Alternative treatment" implies that there has been treatment.
Yet you don't state that there has been any treatment. Has there been
treatment or hasn't there been treatment?
Wootton wrote:
: Weeks of herbs,every natural vitamin we could think off had no effect. He
: persuaded a doctor to give him chemo.
So it was not that chemo was not available to him. It was that a doctor
was not willing to treat him. This is often the case when the diagnosis
is terminal.
I'm sure the cancer cells loved the vitamins. Yummy.
Wootton wrote:
: Jean it is nice to hear from you and I appreciate your help and input.
: My dad is in intensive care at Henderson hospital in Hamilton,
: After his first week of kemo, the side effects have been the most
: painful and horrifying thing I have ever seen or imagined in my life.
Most people don't realize that chemo typically is a method of poisoning
the cancer cells by administering a near lethal dose of poison to the
person and then relying on the fact that the cancer cells take up more of
the poison as they rapidly metabolize and grow that they die
preferentially.
It's generally not a happy time.
Wootton wrote:
: I think at leased after months of no help or treatment kemo was the
: was the only hope .This may have ended him sooner.
You think? What does your Dr. think?
Wootton wrote:
: I sincerely hope you and yours (Scott) never get the "untreatment" that is
: happening here in London.
You have yet to document any medically relevant "untreatment".
I look forward to you doing so.
J Wootton
Yes.
J Wootton
> J Wootton (jwoo...@home.com) wrote:
> : They refused my friend a simple re-X-ray of her ankle (broken in Jan/99). She
> : hobbled around with the foot on crooked, in pain...until Feb/99 when her family
> : doctor finally decided to listen. She had to have everything re-done, pin had
> : come out of plate, plate had eroded into bone marrow. Had to take piece of
> : pelvic bone to repair eroded bone. She's got 14 pins through her leg with a
> : "cage" thing around the whole leg. Hopefully will come out soon and she can
> : re-start physio (almost two years gone down the tubes..unable to work..because
> : dr decided she was just a whiner and there wasn't anything really wrong..until
> : he ordered up a simple x-ray..sheesh!! (original surgeon retired before she
> : could get back to him and referrals to specialists have to go through family
> : doctor so IMO she got a very raw deal).
>
> What you left unsaid is that she broke her ankle and was immediately
> fitted with a plate and pin to stabalize the fracture.
And the pin fell out or was improperly installed to begin with because as soon as she
was mobile (30 days?), she noticed that her foot was crooked. Tried to get back to
the surgeon and he had retired. She has since encountered 3 other people who've had
improper treatment by same surgeon/hospital. She's not looking..they approach her,
wherever she goes to ask about the cage on her leg.
> What you document instead is a medical error. Errors happen all the
> time. In the U.S. we regularly read about medical procedures where a
> doctor confuses left and right, amputating a right foot when the left is
> diseased, etc. What you need to do is show a pattern of failure that is
> a result of whatever policies you feel are the cause.
>
> Wootton wrote:
> : As I said, Nudds is lucky indeed. The number of "nightmare" stories are
> : mounting. Seems like some get great healthcare and immediate competent care.
>
> Back in the mid 70's my father died due to complications of open heart
> surgery. Surgery that is routine today, and was reasonably routine then.
> I've received stitches without anesthetic. My neice was sent home from
> the emergency ward with abdominal pains only to return 2 days later to
> have her apendix removed. A neighbour had hip replacement surgery in which
> the prosthetic didn't bond to the underlying bone for over 2 years.
>
> Tales of medical "horror" have been around since the beginning of
> medicine. In many cases - as with the cases above - no "mistakes" were
> made. There is simply no guarantee of success with any procedure or
> diagnosis.
>
> Your case would be much better off if you could find more comparitive
> studies like the recent one which shows that Canadians who have cancer are
> slighly more likely to die than their American counterparts.
I can believe the above based on recent contacts in person and on newsgroups. (not to
mention articles in the press with statements by the cancer treatment centres
themselves.
Surgical failure studies would be sadly lacking in information or have incorrect
reporting of information. IMO
My failed surgery has never been recorded anywhere and that seems to be the case in
many instances. Your neice wasn't a surgical failure. She was misdiagnosed. Did
they tell her it must be the "flu"? or IBS? She would do well to always take a male
with her when she has a valid medical concern. Hip replacements are known to be
complex. Sorry about your father. Did you read the surgical notes to find out
exactly what went wrong or was there an autopsy that provided more enlightenment?
J
J Wootton
Scott Nudds wrote:
> : > J Wootton (jwoo...@home.com) wrote: : I'm still awaiting news of 30 year
> : > veteran firefighter who was diagnosed with liver cancer last April but
> : > hadn't seen treatment specialist 2 weeks ago. Indeed, his appointment got
> : > cancelled because they were too busy. Meantime the cancer had spread (to
> : > lungs I believe). He finally got in (interestingly for Nudds) to a
> : > treatment centre in Hamilton. d**med shame!
>
> : Scott Nudds wrote:
> : > Well, when you get the facts straight, I look forward to reading them.
>
> J Wootton (jwoo...@home.com) wrote:
> : You are a first-class jerk! The man's dying/wasn't expected to last the
> : weekend and probably didn't.
>
> Really? This is new information. What was his prognosis before the
> cancer was found to have migrated to - WHAT YOU BELIEVE - to have been his
> lungs? Was it his lungs by the way? Do you have that fact straight yet?
I posted his posts (I had deleted the e-mail where his son explained about the
lung). Liver originally. Metasticized to his lungs while he waited.
Scott, if they didn't opt for resection at the time of diagnosis, you and I, well I
know that his chances were slim. Heck, maybe that's why they chose to not rush him
into treatment? If that's the case though, seems like it would have been more
humane to tell the patient and the family the truth. (Palliative/enjoy as best
possible his remaining months). IMO
J
J Wootton
> : Actually, <I> haven't personally used the Canadian health care system in
> the last 25 years with the exception of registering myself with a "family"
> doctor last year.
>
> Quite frankly, everyone I know who has needed medical attention has
> received prompt attention (with the exception of this gent with the
> headaches). By prompt I mean attention in what I consider a
> medically appropriate time period.
Very telling.
J
PS
You are mis-understanding my very long post. Everything between "posted to sci.med
11/01/2000" and
"I sincerely hope you and yours" were not my words but the posters'/e-mails from
persons involved (except my "XXXXXXX (for privacy)"
J
J Wootton
Scott Nudds wrote:
Wootton wrote:
> : 11/30/2000 (so it spread to his stomach, not his lung, got that Scott?)
> : I am sorry for your misfortune, My dad was diagnosed four months ago with a
> : similar problem, A tumor on his liver had
> : grown to 22 cm and within weeks had spread to his stomach.We have taken him
> : to several different hospitals in hopes
> : of finding some alternative treatment or just to get someone willing to try
> : to help.
>
> Hold on. "Alternative treatment" implies that there has been treatment.
> Yet you don't state that there has been any treatment. Has there been
> treatment or hasn't there been treatment?
>
Don't know. that was a ccp: of the man's son's post. Looks like a panic attempt
while they waited to get called in for traditional cancer treatment? And many are
seeking alternative treatments once they've been told there is no hope.
J
J Wootton
You absolutely have to question everything? Fine you saw him. Did you ask him
if he still worked at UWO?
http://www.sscl.uwo.ca/psychology/faculty/rushton.html
E-mail: rus...@julian.uwo.ca
Telephone: (519) 661-3685
FAX: (519) 661-3961
The phone number is still valid and he answers "Phil Rushton". (I just checked)
E-mail him if you don't believe. The server (julian.uwo.ca) is running at peak
and they don't permit people to stay on the server unless they are current staff,
at least not for long.
Dept of psychology (according to last year's phone book) (519) 661-2067
http://www.ssc.uwo.ca/psychology/
http://www.ssc.uwo.ca/psychology/faculty/ (Rushton is still listed)
http://www.ssc.uwo.ca/psychology/psych_grad/personal.html Teacher? Half course?
Perhaps he is moon-lighting or supplementing his income and I can't think of a
better way. I enjoy auto mechanics myself.
J
ant
J Wootton wrote in message <3A30C17D...@home.com>...
>ant wrote:
>
>> <snipped for brevity>
>>
>> argh, se my other post.
>> i have already had a ct scan for upper spine related hedaches, and an
MRI
>> is on the cards next year<when i get around to it> for the soft tissue
>> around my upper spine, ther may be muscular damage and compresed nerves
>> from a family problem with the disks in our back<slightly wrong shape>.
>
>Hope they can sort that out for you
>
yoga seems to do the trick, maintaining flexability and even muscle tension
ballences.
>> >> In many instances MRI and CAT scans provide little new information
>> >> compared to previous diagnostic techniques - and they can be overused
in
>> >> those situations.
>> >
>> >Agreed but if nothing is found on "previous diagnostic techniques"
what's
>> the point
>> >of repeating "previous diagnostic techniques" when the problem
continues
>> and nothing
>> >has been found?
>> >
>>
>> our doctors like to start with the simple blood tests, then move up the
>> scale till they find somehting interesting.
>
>Naw, in many cases here, they do simple blood test and a few cursory
tests,
>then it becomes (depending on who they are "serving"), dish out
>anti-depressants which happen to have numbing effect for pain and help
sleep
>and/or pain meds.
>Do they have a diagnosis of Fibromyalgia in Australia? Interesting
diagnosis
>that!
>
the term sounds fmailiar, i will have to do a search to see the loca state,
we are improveing, multiple chemical sensativity disorder is now a fully
respected disease, special diagnosis and treatement ward in one of the big
public hospitals in melbourn. as we have such a high rate of allergys the
medical profession has been forced to take destructive immune diseases
seriously and it was an australian ascientist who discovered taht you can
treat stomach ulcers with antibiotics, incidentally we are seeing emergance
of resistance in the abcterium that causes ulcers to the common frint line
antibiotics, very similar to several commonly used agricultural
antibiotis<australia feeds its animals more anitbiotic more per head then
any other nation> guess where that nasty antibiotic resistant flesh eating
bacteria evolved?
>> IIRC australia is one of the
>> most highly medicated nations on earth.
>
>Interesting. For some reason, I thought the US was. Why? On other
>newsgroups, Australians seem so level-headed..or are they just spaced out
><grin>
>
i am talking of general medications, we are up in the top five for anti
depressant use and for diazepans it is truly amazing. we have a
comprehensive phamaceutical subsidy system, the malers of viagra are
lobbying to have their product included on the list of cheap meds. there is
friction as our PBS needs proof that a new more expensive medication is
more effective then an existing drug that aleready has subsidys.
>> >> What I would like to know is why the existing machines here in
Ontario
>> >> are only used 16 hours a day. I would make much more sense to have
them
>> >> running 24 hours.
>> >
>> >Good question. If you look up "imaging" depts in our local
hospitals/labs,
>> some timeis allocated for veterinary use. Also my understanding is that
our
>> physicians areserving other (perhaps non-resident) clients after hours.
But
>> the bottom
>> line answer is those who have the equipment don't wish to pay their
>> technicians
>> and/or the technicians prefer to work shifts for non-OHIP pay scales?
Or
>> they
>> have lost many technicians to the US (or any combo of).
>
>Letter /article from some Canadian nurses (down in US) saying "we'd love
to
>come back but ....not enough pay, no discussion of their qualifications,
no
>incentives to continue to get upgraded, "bed pan" monitors is how they get
>treated up here..and mostly (by the url I provided Nudds),
part-time/casual.
>Which is why our employment stats look so wonderful.
surprise surprise, we have a similar problem right down to the rubery
employment figures, useing todays terms our unemployment rate is about
%6.5, useing the criteria used in 1990 it is %9.5 and they were deceptive.
see chives post to sci environment about human rights in the new world
order for an explanation for the increasing deception and expectation
gap<the gap between what people expect out of life and what it actually
delivers>
>People trying to eke a
>living out of 2 or 3 part-time jobs. Unless you're in technology, resaerch
or
our research sector has also been decimated, its all short term funding and
temps.
>professional, trade, most of the other jobs have gone
temp/casual/part-time.
>(This goes to undervalue some traditional jobs..).
recently our right wing industrial relations tribunal ruled that
underground coal miners had to have a wages feeze for the next 10 years so
that the average %25 extra over norma serf wages could be reduced, i
thought that the idea was that because coal miners worked in a dangerous
profession, mostly underground in australia, and run a greatly increased
risk of dieing as a result of their job.
>As office/admin/accounting
>I used to run the office on my own while boss was away for weeks/months on
>buying trips. Now they're paying temps for such and gov't jobs etc. Try
to
>find/get competent info here..it's a nightmare..if you can get past the
phone
>messaging systems, "black hole phone calls". I usually get my info my
the
>'net on government sites or corporate sites. More intelligent than some
of the
>responses I get by phone. Half of them feed misinformation and if you
>question, they put you on hold for 30 minutes or so, while they go get
>educated, come back and give you the same information that you were just
>calling to
wow, they dont pass the buck immediatly, the front line phone fodder are
not allowed to deal with such questions.
>confirm and make sure nothing had changed from the info you already
>had. Heck, the information probably did change, just in the 30 minute "on
>hold" time <grin> My acquaintance with the bad arm, reads Government
Hansard
>just about every day, seems like that's the onlly way to know what tricks
>they're cooking up for us in a timely fashion.
>
yes, it drives the politicians mad that the public has access to all that,
we should have access to all government files and documents.
>> whereas in australia most of the mdicale imagedin services are private,
we
>> just swipe the plastic medicare card and its free to the end user, is is
>> the rest of the medical system.
>
>Is here also or so they say.
>
ours was newer, dates from 1983, so we are more reluctant to give it up, as
we still remember the old system. i came from a monied family so we had the
very best health care, antibiotics for every infection and a drug for all
aliments<you did not tell the kids about cancer or death> i was born in the
late 1960's
>> >> Partiularly NMR, where they need to be kept cold
>> >> through the night anyhow.
>> >
>> >??? No idea what NMR is.
>> >
>>
>> another name for MRI units,
>
>Thanks No one here uses that term. That's where acronyms become
problematic.
>What needs to be kept cold? The equipment?
>
they use superconductig magnets, have to keep them very cold, it attests to
the robustness of the things designs that there has never been a life
threatening coolant leak. the things generate intense magnetic and radio
fields.
>> the units in our hospitals are kept running 24/7 in case of emergency
but
>> as ther are no signifigant waiting lists for the services there is no
need
>> to schedule scans for inconvenient times.
>>
>> >Scott, obviously there are some regions that are better and others
worse.
>> Hospitals
>> >are corporations, they get the $$ from the Province and decide how they
>> are
>> >allocated (research, beds, staff, equipment etc). London's economy is
the
>> pits. >My
>>
>> our health system is federally funded so local economy makes no
differenc
>> to funding allocation.
>
>Feds hand $$$ over to Provincial, Provincial hands out to various special
>interest and hospital corporations. Here in town we have 3 hospital
corps..and
>none of them communicate/share info.
ahh, we still have non competing area health boards with finding allocated
on a population served basis.
>Each hospital specializes in certain
>areas, so in theory and it's happened to me, you could get sent for 4 or 5
>pelvic ultrasounds all in the space of two months. If you try to ask one
doctor
>to please send for result of other ultrasound, it just seems like too much
work
>to them..easier to reorder the same test..
>
we get to keep most of that stuff, and the hospitals will forward it along,
just cause it saves precious funds normally diverted form the hospitals to
the private sector.
>Getting misinfo. Was told all hernias show up on CT scan..apparently not.
>You almost need a degree in medicine/imaging to know what is wrong, what
test
>is required so that they don't waste your time and tax dollars sending you
for
>useless tests over and over, while not getting right to the correct
test..or so
>it seems.
>
argh, we have trained radiologists to do the diagnosis of the images, they
just pass it back to the refering doctor. if they are unsure of somehting
they are only to willing to say so.
>They refused my friend a simple re-X-ray of her ankle (broken in Jan/99).
She
>hobbled around with the foot on crooked, in pain...until Feb/99 when her
family
>doctor finally decided to listen. She had to have everything re-done, pin
had
>come out of plate, plate had eroded into bone marrow. Had to take piece of
>pelvic bone to repair eroded bone. She's got 14 pins through her leg with
a
>"cage" thing around the whole leg. Hopefully will come out soon and she
can
>re-start physio (almost two years gone down the tubes..unable to
work..because
>dr decided she was just a whiner and there wasn't anything really
wrong..until
>he ordered up a simple x-ray..sheesh!! (original surgeon retired before
she
>could get back to him and referrals to specialists have to go through
family
>doctor so IMO she got a very raw deal).
>
sounds so, i would just have gone into the local casualty section at an off
time, said it hurt and it would have been scanned, x-rayed, or whatever. if
you dont like your doctor you just go see another one. most people see
several GP's, some of them even tell the other doctors that they ahve
competition, that really gets them sitting up and listening :-)
i ahve turned up at a casualty department with an ear infection<a nasty
one, had a couple of life threatening ones as a kid so i dont take risks
now> the people at the casualty department were also happy to treat me and
got me straight onto high dose antibiotics as they know of the risl to
hearing<already lost %15 hearing in the left ear as a result of one of the
really bad ones as a kid>
>As I said, Nudds is lucky indeed. The number of "nightmare" stories are
>mounting. Seems like some get great healthcare and immediate competent
care.
>Others, not.
htere are nightmare cases here as well, but at least we are looking, we
were the first nation to study how many deaths the medical profession
caused each year, 14,000 IIRC. we have problem areas, the less populated
states dont get enough funding and none of the states really gets enough, i
live in the east coast NSW strip that is most densly populated, the 300Km
coastal sprawl centered on sydney so we have good health care and
infastructure compared to friends who live in less populated states.
tasmania<the lowest population state about the size of ireland> has only
300,000 residents, compared to greater sydney and its sattelite citys
population of 8 million or so, BTW sydney and its burbs _are_ NSW in all
effective matters, the very modern city state, each of our states has a
single large city as its hub.
ant
Scott Nudds
: Scott Nudds wrote:
: > What you left unsaid is that she broke her ankle and was immediately
: > fitted with a plate and pin to stabalize the fracture.
J Wootton (jwoo...@home.com) wrote:
: And the pin fell out or was improperly installed to begin with because
: as soon as she was mobile (30 days?), she noticed that her foot was
: crooked.
Confirming that her treatment was prompt. Something you left unstated in
your first complaint.
J Wootton wrote:
: Tried to get back to the surgeon and he had retired. She has
: since encountered 3 other people who've had improper treatment by same
: surgeon/hospital.
Which has <nothing> at all to do with the availability of of health care
in Ontario. Your complaint seems to be about <potential> and yet unproven
medical malpractice by a pediatrist.
So what exactly is your point?
: > Your case would be much better off if you could find more comparitive
: > studies like the recent one which shows that Canadians who have cancer are
: > slighly more likely to die than their American counterparts.
Wootton wrote:
: I can believe the above based on recent contacts in person and on newsgroups.
: (not to mention articles in the press with statements by the cancer
: treatment centres themselves.
Wonderful. Then you must he shocked at the fact that all of the
problems mentioned earlier are completely reasonable and expected
characteristics of any modern medical system. In each case, the medical
decisions that were made were the "correct" ones. That in some instances,
proper procedure results in death, or no treatment, etc, is simply an
known and sanctioned aspect of the modern medical system, where "correct"
diagnostic procedures and treatments are a result of statistical analysis
and optimization from among the alternatives that fit within the
established ethical guidelines.
: My failed surgery has never been recorded anywhere and that seems to be the
: case in many instances.
What failed surgery? What is your point for raising the issue?
: Your neice wasn't a surgical failure. She was misdiagnosed. Did
: they tell her it must be the "flu"? or IBS?
There were typical problems with the diagnosis of this condition. The
results were inconclusive. Should they have cut her open to check things
out?
So, Mrs. Wootton, what should have been done differently?
: She would do well to always take a male with her when she has a valid
: medical concern.
Her husband was present.
: Hip replacements are known to be complex.
A second surgery solved the problem. It occurred two years after the
primary one. Recovery was rapid. 3-4 months.
: Sorry about your father.
Thanx, but unnecessary. It was a long time ago.
: Did you read the surgical notes to find out
: exactly what went wrong or was there an autopsy that provided
: more enlightenment?
Autopsies are not as common as they should be. The cause was
uncontrollable clotting in the lungs - and probable stroke - resulting
from clot formatation at the graft sites.
Shit happpens. No medical procedure is completely safe.
My point is that I have a fair bit of the health care system in this
province over the last several decades. From what I have seen, the
quality of care is very good, although it has declined <slightly> as a
result of budget cuts. But only slightly. Certainly Dr's and Nurses are
under considerally more pressure, and that is not a good thing.
Scott Nudds
: I posted his posts (I had deleted the e-mail where his son explained about the
: lung). Liver originally. Metasticized to his lungs while he waited.
: Scott, if they didn't opt for resection at the time of diagnosis, you and I, well I
: know that his chances were slim. Heck, maybe that's why they chose to not rush him
: into treatment? If that's the case though, seems like it would have been more
: humane to tell the patient and the family the truth. (Palliative/enjoy as best
: possible his remaining months). IMO
I agree. I find it suspicious that surgery would not be immediatly
ordered on an organ that has the ability to regrow and is a good candidate
for transplantation.
The issue of transplanation is another issue worth considering. In my
view, there should be a negative option plan when it comes to organ
harvesting. It should automatically be done unless the donor has clearly
specified that he/she doesn't want it done.
Dr's don't like to ask grieving relatives if they can cut up their loved
ones.
Recently I had the pleasure of being in such a situation, and I raised
the issue of the body being used for tissue transplantation or as a
medical cadaver. Not only was the Dr. shocked, so too was the staff.
They were dumbfounded - or at least that was the expressions they had on
their faces.
Clearly even in an emergency ward, there isn't much of that kind of
converstation going on.
Scott Nudds
: Scott Nudds wrote:
: > Again, last time I saw him, he was back to working as an automechanic.
J Wootton (jwoo...@home.com) wrote:
: You absolutely have to question everything? Fine you saw him. Did you ask him
: if he still worked at UWO?
I'm sorry if I have mislead you. I didn't intend to imply that I had
personally met the man. I remember seeing a new report of his new life on
the CBC.
J Wootton
> : Scott Nudds wrote:
> : > What you left unsaid is that she broke her ankle and was immediately
> : > fitted with a plate and pin to stabalize the fracture.
>
> J Wootton (jwoo...@home.com) wrote:
> : And the pin fell out or was improperly installed to begin with because
> : as soon as she was mobile (30 days?), she noticed that her foot was
> : crooked.
>
> Confirming that her treatment was prompt. Something you left unstated in
> your first complaint.
The original repair was the same day. That was a given. Few people would go home
and wait if they had 6 bones broken in their ankle and no pain relief!
> J Wootton wrote:
> : Tried to get back to the surgeon and he had retired. She has
> : since encountered 3 other people who've had improper treatment by same
> : surgeon/hospital.
>
> Which has <nothing> at all to do with the availability of of health care
> in Ontario. Your complaint seems to be about <potential> and yet unproven
> medical malpractice by a pediatrist.
Physicians retiring and/or going to the US or going into other specialties most
certainly does have a negative effect on our health care because there's not enough
influx to fill the missing gaps. For example, London just lost one of 3
specialists in child brain tumors.
> So what exactly is your point?
From the 30 day mark when she repeatedly told her family physician that her foot
was on crooked and that she was in serious pain, until over a year later, nobody
would listen, believe or order up a simple x-ray.
> : > Your case would be much better off if you could find more comparitive
> : > studies like the recent one which shows that Canadians who have cancer are
> : > slighly more likely to die than their American counterparts.
>
> Wootton wrote:
> : I can believe the above based on recent contacts in person and on newsgroups.
> : (not to mention articles in the press with statements by the cancer
> : treatment centres themselves.
>
> Wonderful. Then you must he shocked at the fact that all of the
> problems mentioned earlier are completely reasonable and expected
> characteristics of any modern medical system. In each case, the medical
> decisions that were made were the "correct" ones. That in some instances,
> proper procedure results in death, or no treatment, etc, is simply an
> known and sanctioned aspect of the modern medical system, where "correct"
> diagnostic procedures and treatments are a result of statistical analysis
> and optimization from among the alternatives that fit within the
> established ethical guidelines.
>
> : My failed surgery has never been recorded anywhere and that seems to be the
> : case in many instances.
>
> What is your point for raising the issue?
Statistics come from data. If data is not recorded, statistics are meaningless.
> : Your neice wasn't a surgical failure. She was misdiagnosed. Did
> : they tell her it must be the "flu"? or IBS?
>
> There were typical problems with the diagnosis of this condition. The
> results were inconclusive. Should they have cut her open to check things
> out?
>
> what should have been done differently?
http://www.swmed.edu/news/append.html and IMO at the least, follow-up tests the
next day, if the symptoms continued and appendix was suspected. However, two days
from ER to diagnosis/surgery is very good. You didn't answer my question. What did
they say to her when they released her from ER the first time? Take some pain
medication and see your family physician? Or maybe it's menstrual cramps?
> My point is that I have a fair bit of the health care system in this
> province over the last several decades.
The only conclusion I can come up with, given your statement above and the fact
that you've "avoided healthcare until just recently when you acquired a family
physician" (prior post) is: that you are in the health care system. So which is
it? imaging tech or physician?
An apologist who apparently hasn't recently tried to find a family physician in
London nor has been on the receiving end of current healthcare in Ontario. Either
way, it doesn't matter because if you are employed in the healthcare field, I fully
expect that you would get first-tier treatment for whatever. What did you do?
Offer to get your friend's test moved up for him?
Finally, I will grant you this. There are some fine physicians in this town and
throughout Ontario. Unfortunately, not everyone has access to them.
J
And it's not "Mrs". Don't ASSuME please.
Scott Nudds
: Physicians retiring and/or going to the US or going into other specialties most
: certainly does have a negative effect on our health care because there's not enough
: influx to fill the missing gaps. For example, London just lost one of 3
: specialists in child brain tumors.
You are aware of the studies on this issue, that show that for the most
part, physicians are not moving from Canada to the U.S. in significant
numbers.
: > So what exactly is your point?
Wootton wrote:
: From the 30 day mark when she repeatedly told her family physician that her foot
: was on crooked and that she was in serious pain, until over a year later, nobody
: would listen, believe or order up a simple x-ray.
Fine. Then the record shows that she broke her foot, it was repaired.
The repair was faulty and no one took her complaints seriously. It
happens all the time in all medical systems. She should have been more
proactive.
This is not an illustration of a problem that is specific to the
Canadian medical system.
: > What is your point for raising the issue?
Wootton wrote:
: Statistics come from data. If data is not recorded, statistics are
: meaningless.
In other words you can provide no statistical data to confirm your
assertions. You will find - if you look - that statistical evaluations of
performance are the mechanism by which all hospitals measure their
performance. Those numbers may not be available to you, but you can rest
assured that they are available to the hospital and to the medical
establishment.
: > : Your neice wasn't a surgical failure. She was misdiagnosed. Did
: > : they tell her it must be the "flu"? or IBS?
: >
: > There were typical problems with the diagnosis of this condition. The
: > results were inconclusive. Should they have cut her open to check things
: > out?
: >
: > what should have been done differently?
Wootton wrote:
: http://www.swmed.edu/news/append.html and IMO at the
: least, follow-up tests the next day, if the symptoms continued and
: appendix was suspected. However, two days from ER to diagnosis/surgery
: is very good. You didn't answer my question. What did they say to her
: when they released her from ER the first time? Take some pain medication
: and see your family physician? Or maybe it's menstrual cramps?
She was told all of the above. Which is the correct response since the
pain could have been caused by many factors including cramps.
You may be interested to know that after the surgery - there was <no>
evidence that the appendix was infected. No inflamation. Yet immediately
after the removal her symptons subsided.
This is <NOT> an unusual situation.
So tell me... What was the problem?
On the surface, it would appear to some that sending her home the first
time was an error since she returned two days later. Some might think that
the diagnosis the second time was an error since the organ was apparently
not diseased.
Yet to those who have experience in such matters, these apparent
"errors" are just the standard way medicine is practiced. Once the
patient is opened, it is less costly to remove the organ than it is to
close and then run more tests. Why is the patient opened? On the basis
that the symptoms <might> be life threatening if action is not taken.
: > My point is that I have a fair bit of the health care system in this
: > province over the last several decades.
Wootton wrote:
: The only conclusion I can come up with, given your statement above and
: the fact that you've "avoided healthcare until just recently when you
: acquired a family physician" (prior post) is: that you are in the health
: care system. So which is it? imaging tech or physician?
I am not in the health care profession. I am simply aware of what the
people around me have experienced. I have had little need of using the
health care system myself.
Wootton wrote:
: An apologist who apparently hasn't recently tried to find a family
: physician in London nor has been on the receiving end of current
: healthcare in Ontario. Either way, it doesn't matter because if you are
: employed in the healthcare field, I fully expect that you would get
: first-tier treatment for whatever. What did you do? Offer to get your
: friend's test moved up for him?
The gent with the headaches? I think it's stress myself. But he has
other medical problems and a history of brain tumors in his immediately
family, so my advise to him is to look for an alternate method of testing
that would rule out fast growth tumors.
He isn't interested in taking the initiative or even making the effort
to check if alternatives exist. If he isn't interested in making an
effort, why should anyone else be interested in doing so on his behalf?
Wootton wrote:
: Finally, I will grant you this. There are some fine
: physicians in this town and throughout Ontario. Unfortunately, not
: everyone has access to them.
Again, this is true everywhere. Not everyone can have the best doctor.
But quite frankly, I don't care if I have the best doctor. I only need
one that is competent and skilled in his area of expertise.
Unlike most people I don't give Doctors authority over decision making
when it concerns my health. I am responsible for maintaining my own
health and I use the medical system as I would a honest auto-dealership.
I will use them to provide expert medical advice, and perform service
procedures that <I> authorize where <I> feel they are medically necessary.
Since I am the Sr. partner in any diagnosis, any failure is as much a
failure on my part as it is on the Dr's part.
Those who turn their lives over to a physician - are often betrayed -
not by the will of the physician, but by normal human error, complaciency
and simple ignorance.
Consider that 15 years after I first read about stomach ulcers being
primarily caused by bacteria, over 30% of the GP's in the U.S. didn't know
about or didn't believe the connection.
You might be interested in knowing that the adoption of the
anti-bacterial treatment for stomach ulcers was adopted here in Canada far
faster than it as in the U.S.
Feel free to speculate on how the closer connection with U.S. physicians
and drug companies producing acid blocking drugs, might have caused the
delay.
J Wootton
> : > So what exactly is your point?
>
> Wootton wrote:
> : From the 30 day mark when she repeatedly told her family physician that her foot
> : was on crooked and that she was in serious pain, until over a year later, nobody
> : would listen, believe or order up a simple x-ray.
>
> Fine. Then the record shows that she broke her foot, it was repaired.
> The repair was faulty and no one took her complaints seriously. It
> happens all the time in all medical systems. She should have been more
> proactive.
and your specific suggestion would have been?
J
Scott Nudds
: and your specific suggestion would have been?
If simple palpation couldn't reveal the problem, then I would have
offered a deal. I'll stop complaining about the pain if an x-ray
indicates that the repair was successful. I would have asked for evidence
that the bones had fused properly. I would have raised the potential for
calcification of the joints stimulated by the surgery. I would have
raised the issue that the screws may have worked their way lose. I would
have asked for a second and third diagnostic opinion, and I would have
made it clear to all parties that the surgery had not healed properly.
I would also have kept off the foot as much as possible, especially when
visiting the Dr's office, in order to give him the visual impression that
there was still considerable pain.
To what extent I would have followed the above advice depends on the exact
situation. Ultimately if no action was authorized, I would have made an
effort to find another Dr.
If the situation were desparate I would even go so far as to visit an
emergency ward during off peak hours and during an related "event" and
suggest that the "event" in your view had damaged the foot internally. An
X-ray would then be performed.
There are a variety of alternatives. As you can see.
J Wootton
> J Wootton (jwoo...@home.com) wrote:
> : and your specific suggestion would have been?
>
> If simple palpation couldn't reveal the problem, then I would have
> offered a deal.
Most doctors don't "deal". They dictate and/or patronize, especially with
female patients. Like to hear the one about the patient with Fibromyalgia who
was told that she had asthma? She's just found out that it wasn't asthma at
all. It's GERD, probably caused by all the medications for pain/poor
sleep/asthma and the irritation in her esophagus got so bad, there's now a
hole punctured through it. Last I heard she was trying to find a new
physician, find out how this situation could be corrected (surgery?). Then
the plan was to hire a lawyer. You don't start suing until you've gotten the
problem corrected. Word travels fast and most lawyers here work for
physicians/hospitals.
> I'll stop complaining about the pain if an x-ray
> indicates that the repair was successful.
Refused.
> I would have asked for evidence
> that the bones had fused properly.
Refused.
> I would have raised the potential for
> calcification of the joints stimulated by the surgery.
They (physio and the family physician) raised this issue but said that it's
something one has to learn to live with.
Anyways, that wasn't the problem.
> I would have
> raised the issue that the screws may have worked their way lose.
She didn't know that was even possible (and it wasn't palpable), until the
X-ray showing one loose/out..
> I would
> have asked for a second and third diagnostic opinion,
Refused
> and I would have
> made it clear to all parties that the surgery had not healed properly.
Did.
In addition Scott, here you don't start using terms like "calcification of the
joints stimulated by the surgery". The medico "warning flags" go up where
they think they actually have a patient who has researched their condition.
That's a "no-no" here and especially, horrors!! research, on the internet. If
you look it up in the library, they say you are obsessed with finding a
problem. (Munchausen's).
> I would also have kept off the foot as much as possible,
How does one do that when the same doctor has ordered the person (by virtue of
the Worker's Comp papers) back to work?
> especially when
> visiting the Dr's office, in order to give him the visual impression that
> there was still considerable pain.
Did, but it was a Worker's Comp case and once physio declared her to be well
enough to go back to work on "modified duty" (despite agreeing with her
verbally, that her foot was on crooked), her family physician and just about
everyone else (who also saw the "crooked foot") decided that she was just a
"complainer" looking for an excuse not to go back to work because "most ankle
breaks heal within XXXX time". (she told them "mine didn't"). The family
physician kept telling her "just take pain meds" (as he pats her
patronistically on the head and bills OHIP for the visit).
> To what extent I would have followed the above advice depends on the exact
> situation. Ultimately if no action was authorized, I would have made an
> effort to find another Dr.
From personal experience, most doctors here don't want other doctor's messes,
and especially Worker's Comp cases (too much paperwork). In addition, this
physician has been their "family" physician for many years. So if she
changed, the other 5 would have wanted to also, something they were all
reluctant/unable to take the time to do (due to time/job constraints). Plus
she was driving 20 miles to a job where they were forcing her to do work that
was distinctly against what physio had recommended (ie not modified duty)
(none of the other workers would back her for fear of losing their jobs),
arriving home in severe pain, having to take care of the household. When she
tried to get back to the same physio place, she was told she'd used up all her
allocated physio appointments (covered by Worker's Comp). After she quit her
job, she went to another physio place. They concurred with her opinion
"something not right" but refused to put anything on paper to her family
physician, which would have perhaps helped to convince him that another x-ray
needed to be ordered. Instead, they spent months with different kinds of
physio and shoes (trying to make the best of a bad situation) or improve what
they didn't know they were trying to improve.
Plus, have you ever tried to "interview" a physician? (obviously, from your
prior post about just finding a new physician). When I tried that approx 10
years ago (for my son and I), I was met with extreme suspicion. Dr: "What
brings you here today? J: Well, I'm thinking about changing family physicians
and would like to discuss the possibility of being your patient" Dr: I think
it's best you stay with your own physician. Have a nice day". (I had already
told them when I booked the appointment what the purpose of the appointment
was so why didn't they just tell me to forget it....and he probably billed
OHIP for that unhelpful meeting). Happened again last summer, 3 times, after
I lost my family physician. Partway through the history-taking "too
complicated, don't have time for complicated patients". (assembly-line
doctoring here). They all seem to want the easy ones, who haven't been
previously messed up by other physicians. In fact, one specialist told me
that right to my face. (but wouldn't write it on paper).
> If the situation were desparate I would even go so far as to visit an
> emergency ward during off peak hours and during an related "event" and
> suggest that the "event" in your view had damaged the foot internally. An
> X-ray would then be performed.
She and I were discussed this option. Around the same time, she mentioned her
"worker's comp lawyer" to her physician (because the pain/poor sleep had
forced her to quit her job and Comp had cut her off or refused to renew her
unless she went back to work). Somewhere in that sentence are the "magic
words" that seem to have motivated her family physician to order up a new
x-ray. Ever been in a medical and financial squeeze, Scott? The latter caused
by the former? And all parties up against one person. That's the situation
she was in. (mortgage, utilities, property taxes, food etc all have to get
paid while you're getting "jerked around" by the medical community, not to
mention the employer and Worker's Comp).
If people like you want to see what happens to other people (ie the real
world), suggest you send someone out with a hidden tape recorder and get the
view from many others' perspective. It's not all the way you think it is.
And especially where women (but not exclusively) are concerned.
BTW It's not just London either..incoming info from Hamilton, Ottawa and a
place just outside Ottawa. So there's good and bad..question is, how to
address these issues other than a slap on the hands. It all starts with
listening and trusting the patient..when something is wrong.
IMO
J
Scott Nudds
: > : and your specific suggestion would have been?
: >
: > If simple palpation couldn't reveal the problem, then I would have
: > offered a deal.
Wootton wrote:
: Most doctors don't "deal". They dictate and/or patronize, especially with
: female patients.
All of the doctors that I have encountered will acquess to reasonable
requests. There are patients which often ask for unreasonable things, and
abuse the system. I knew one women for example that would go to the
doctor for simple muscle strain that resulted one instance from going for
her first swim in a year or so. Patients with a history of unreasonable
requests, abusive utilization of the system and/or, whining behaviour are
more likely to have their requests ignored.
Unfortunate for the patient but that's the price of being a complainer.
: Like to hear the one about the patient with Fibromyalgia who
: was told that she had asthma? She's just found out that it wasn't asthma at
: all. It's GERD, probably caused by all the medications for pain/poor
: sleep/asthma and the irritation in her esophagus got so bad, there's now a
: hole punctured through it.
Fibromyalgia doesn't result in the puncturing of the esophagus, or even
the ulceration of the esophagus.
: > I'll stop complaining about the pain if an x-ray
: > indicates that the repair was successful.
Wootton wrote:
: Refused.
Doubtful you would know the intimiate details of the converstation with
the doctor. Were you in the room with them?
: > I would have asked for evidence
: > that the bones had fused properly.
Wootton wrote:
: Refused.
Again, douibtful you would know that the question was asked. But if the
doctor refused to provide evidence, I would ask on what grounds he/she
assumed the bones were fused. It is common knowledge that with bone
breaks that they do not always refuse.
: > I would have raised the potential for
: > calcification of the joints stimulated by the surgery.
Wootton wrote:
: They (physio and the family physician) raised this issue but said that it's
: something one has to learn to live with.
: Anyways, that wasn't the problem.
That was a possibility, for which drug treatment is available,
particularly in the early stages. X-ray photography is needed to confirm
the diagnosis and the patient should have persued an x-ray on that basis.
: > I would have
: > raised the issue that the screws may have worked their way lose
Wootton wrote:
: She didn't know that was even possible (and it wasn't palpable), until the
: X-ray showing one loose/out..
A little research and a little thinking would have told her.
: > I would
: > have asked for a second and third diagnostic opinion,
Wootton wrote:
: Refused
Very doubtful. In fact, the refusal of a reference to a secondary
opinion <if true> is grounds for censure. On that basis, I would have
contacted another Dr. myself with the clear understanding that his
services were being used as a second opinion, where the original Dr. had
refused to refer.
: > and I would have
: > made it clear to all parties that the surgery had not healed properly.
Wootton wrote:
: Did.
Probably not. I suspect strongly that the patient made nonspecific
complaints about the result of the procedure.
Wootton wrote:
: In addition Scott, here you don't start using terms like "calcification of the
: joints stimulated by the surgery". The medico "warning flags" go up where
: they think they actually have a patient who has researched their condition.
: That's a "no-no" here and especially, horrors!! research, on the internet. If
: you look it up in the library, they say you are obsessed with finding a
: problem. (Munchausen's).
Possibly. I've never had that problem with the admittedly few
(perhaps dozen) Dr's that I've had to deal with over the last few years.
Undoubtedly I come across as a competent, well informed individual, and I
do attempt to make it clear that I have ultimate authority in the decision
making process. Asking solid questions seems to put the Dr. in the proper
state of mind.
Admittedly most people will not be so capable, but then they are really
are not taking responsibility for their own health.
: > I would also have kept off the foot as much as possible,
Wootton wrote:
: How does one do that when the same doctor has ordered the person (by virtue of
: the Worker's Comp papers) back to work?
Depends on the work.
If this is a Workers Comp. issue then there is your explanation. In
this instance the Dr. is stronly motivated to err on the side of the
workplace and not the patient.
I know a gentleman who had a portion of his spine crushed by a load of
steel. He is obviously in continuous pain - I have visited his home and
seen his condition first hand. WC insists he can work. Yet he can sit in
his wheel chair for no more than a couple of hours without having to
retire to his bed.
But this is not an example of a deterioration of the health care system.
It's a perpetual characteristic of the WCB.
: > especially when
: > visiting the Dr's office, in order to give him the visual impression that
: > there was still considerable pain.
Wootton wrote:
: Did, but it was a Worker's Comp case and once physio declared her to be well
: enough to go back to work on "modified duty" (despite agreeing with her
: verbally, that her foot was on crooked), her family physician and just about
: everyone else (who also saw the "crooked foot") decided that she was just a
: "complainer" looking for an excuse not to go back to work because "most ankle
: breaks heal within XXXX time". (she told them "mine didn't"). The family
: physician kept telling her "just take pain meds" (as he pats her
: patronistically on the head and bills OHIP for the visit).
So she had a second opinion then, one from her family Dr. and the other
from the WCB physician.
: > To what extent I would have followed the above advice depends on the exact
: > situation. Ultimately if no action was authorized, I would have made an
: > effort to find another Dr.
Wootton wrote:
: From personal experience, most doctors here don't want other doctor's messes,
: and especially Worker's Comp cases (too much paperwork).
Don't mention that it's a second opinion to resolve a WCB issue. In
reality it isn't, if as you say, she is interested in finding out why her
ankle is causing her pain.
Wootton wrote:
: In addition, this
: physician has been their "family" physician for many years. So if she
: changed, the other 5 would have wanted to also, something they were all
: reluctant/unable to take the time to do (due to time/job constraints).
Not relevant. Her sociopolitical motivations are of no concern here.
Wootton wrote:
: Plus
: she was driving 20 miles to a job where they were forcing her to do work that
: was distinctly against what physio had recommended (ie not modified duty)
: (none of the other workers would back her for fear of losing their jobs),
: arriving home in severe pain, having to take care of the household.
Again, completely irrelevant.
Wootton wrote:
: Plus, have you ever tried to "interview" a physician? (obviously, from your
: prior post about just finding a new physician). When I tried that approx 10
: years ago (for my son and I), I was met with extreme suspicion.
No. In my view an interview is unnecessary. The physician exists to
provide technical advice that I will then confirm. If I find his/her
advice to be unsound I will not take it and explain why. If the Dr. can't
handle this, then he/she will be replaced. If they repeatedly provide bad
advice they will be replaced.
: > If the situation were desparate I would even go so far as to visit an
: > emergency ward during off peak hours and during an related "event" and
: > suggest that the "event" in your view had damaged the foot internally. An
: > X-ray would then be performed.
Wootton wrote:
: She and I were discussed this option. Around the same time, she mentioned her
: "worker's comp lawyer" to her physician (because the pain/poor sleep had
: forced her to quit her job and Comp had cut her off or refused to renew her
: unless she went back to work). Somewhere in that sentence are the "magic
: words" that seem to have motivated her family physician to order up a new
: x-ray.
Should have taken that tact earlier then.
And what should be done after the problem with the ankle was found? Did
she return to the Dr. and inform him of the error in his diagnosis? Did
she make it clear to him how much pain and suffering it had caused her?
Did she make it clear that her experience is an indication that he/she
should have ordered the additional X-Ray much earlier? And did she ask
him if he would make the same diagnosis given the same complaints from
another equivalent patient?
Doctors make errors, and they should encouraged to learn from them.
Wootton wrote:
: If people like you want to see what happens to other people (ie the real
: world), suggest you send someone out with a hidden tape recorder and get the
: view from many others' perspective. It's not all the way you think it is.
: And especially where women (but not exclusively) are concerned.
I listed a wide range of alternatives. The list was sufficient but not
exhaustive. I remain convinced that a respectful investigation of the
alternatives would have provided an X-Ray much earlier.
And again this is a WCB case. WCB has long been known for medical
horror stories. I remember tales of WCB woe 40 years ago.
For the record, I hear far fewer of them today.
J Wootton
> provide technical advice that I will then confirm. If I find his/her
> advice to be unsound I will not take it and explain why. If the Dr. can't
> handle this, then he/she will be replaced. If they repeatedly provide bad
> advice they will be replaced.
(510) 673-0950 Academy of Medicine, London, Ontario. (current and for over a year
now, recording and verablly confirmed)
Normally our role is to help patients local a new family physician.
They are unable to do so because there are none presently taking new patients.
J
J Wootton
> :: Like to hear the one about the patient with Fibromyalgia who
> : was told that she had asthma? She's just found out that it wasn't asthma at
> : all. It's GERD, probably caused by all the medications for pain/poor
> : sleep/asthma and the irritation in her esophagus got so bad, there's now a
> : hole punctured through it.
>
> Fibromyalgia doesn't result in the puncturing of the esophagus, or even
> the ulceration of the esophagus.
>
>
I didn't say that FM results in ulceration/ puncturing the esophagus.
GERD, if left untreated and attributed to asthma does/did (in the case cited).
J
J Wootton
> :Wootton wrote:
> : How does one do that when the same doctor has ordered the person (by virtue of
> : the Worker's Comp papers) back to work?
>
> Depends on the work.
>
> If this is a Workers Comp. issue then there is your explanation. In
> this instance the Dr. is stronly motivated to err on the side of the
> workplace and not the patient.
>
> I know a gentleman who had a portion of his spine crushed by a load of
> steel. He is obviously in continuous pain - I have visited his home and
> seen his condition first hand. WC insists he can work. Yet he can sit in
> his wheel chair for no more than a couple of hours without having to
> retire to his bed.
>
> But this is not an example of a deterioration of the health care system.
> It's a perpetual characteristic of the WCB.
>
so his physician is siding with WCB (ie erring on the side of the workplace)?
J
J Wootton
> : > J Wootton (jwoo...@home.com) wrote:
> : > : and your specific suggestion would have been?
> : >
> : > If simple palpation couldn't reveal the problem, then I would have
> : > offered a deal.
>
> Wootton wrote:
> : Most doctors don't "deal". They dictate and/or patronize, especially with
> : female patients.
>
> All of the doctors that I have encountered will acquess to reasonable
> requests. There are patients which often ask for unreasonable things, and
> abuse the system. I knew one women for example that would go to the
> doctor for simple muscle strain that resulted one instance from going for
> her first swim in a year or so. Patients with a history of unreasonable
> requests, abusive utilization of the system and/or, whining behaviour are
> more likely to have their requests ignored.
Asking for another x-ray is reasonable and not abuse of the system. Nor is it
"whining behaviour".
Everything that you are skeptical about ("doubtful") is your "spin" and "skepticism"
due to the fact that you seem to have a charmed experience with doctors. I can
assure you that this is not the norm for everyone.
I heard the day-to-day update and a repeat of the exact conversations. And the
person doesn't lie, whine or make up stories.
There were no 2nd opinions. If there was a WCB doctor involved with the
physiotherapist, he did not contact the family physician to suggest a repeat X-ray.
Everyone down the line, from point of fracture, failed this patient. The new
specialist verbally told her that. Remains to be seen if he will re-iterate in
documentation that has been requested by the patient's lawyer. Physician's say lots
of things (in person) but can avoid statements or omit statements in reports.
That's why I made the suggestion of the tape-recorder.
If you'd like to continue to live in denial, so be it.
These and other similar problems are occurring. Only the occasional one "hits the
press". Most people are more concerned about getting their medical problems fixed,
but sometimes resort to contacting the press out of desperation. See below.
Remember back in the thread, where I gave you a url from nurses association that
there's a shortage of nurses? Shortly after appeared in our local newspaper a letter
to the editor, from 5 Canadian nurses currently in Florida, stating that they'd like
to come back to Canada and use their skills here but they are only being offered
casual, part-time or "bed-pan" jobs at lower rates of pay where their skills are not
being used and there's no incentive to upgrade their skills. For the time being,
until things change, they will remain in Florida. (The Freep server was down that
day, so I was unable to ccp: the letter here).
This goes to the way that funds are being administered by local hospital
corporations: beds remain closed, surgery delays, lack of specialists, shortage of
nurses, delays for tests such as CT/MRI despite the fact that new (previously cut
back) funds have been received by same corporations by the Federal government.
"Corporation" is a key word here. The "corporations" are making decisions to invest
in research (which brings much needed jobs to this city). The flip side of this
scenario is that waiting lists get longer, healthcare workers/physicians get
frustrated and/or leave or are "maxed out" on patients. Patients are being left
"chronic", lives/jobs/finnaces/health are in the balance in some,/many instances.
Like the liver patient (previously referred to), some are dying because they are not
getting prompt diagnosis in time to have choices. A liver can be resected, they are
even transplanting portions of livers from compatible donors into patients (which my
understanding can grow). This option could have been available to the cancer
patient if he'd been diagnosed early enough, been given his options (before the
cancer had spread to his stomach).
IMO
J
(looks to me like a nurse filled the patient in as to the real reason, but
administrators deny. IMO
Note Scott: the patient was on disability pension all this time, awaiting surgery.
This crap is costing the taxpayers $$$. Aren't you interested in where your
taxpayer $$ are going and how they're being mismanged?
http://www.canoe.ca/LondonNews/lf.lf-12-13-0003.html
Wednesday, December 13, 2000
Plug pulled on hip repair
Patient already on table when surgery stopped
By MARY-JANE EGAN, Free Press Health Reporter
A Mt. Brydges man who waited 15 months for a hip replacement -- only to have the
surgery abruptly cancelled after he'd been rolled into the operating room, hooked to
an IV and given a painkiller -- says he still can't believe his ordeal.
And London Health Sciences Centre plans to review its operating-room staffing
guidelines as a result of the incident in which Ken Carruthers, 47, and his wife,
June, were sent packing from the University campus Dec. 4, without the surgery
Carruthers hopes would allow him to return to work for the first time in two years.
A lack of available operating room nurses was blamed for the cancellation.
June said she was told other operating rooms were running late and her husband's
surgery was cancelled to avoid paying nurses overtime.
Margaret Nish, vice-president of patient care systems, acknowledged some operating
rooms were running behind but said it was "unfortunate" the couple were told
overtime was the issue.
"It's unfortunate we put the emphasis on that because it's not about overtime per
se," said Nish, who blamed a sudden emergency for the need to redirect nurses to
another operating room.
"Could we have called in nurses for this patient given how long he'd waited and
given the point he was at (on an IV in the operating room)? It's absolutely a fair
question to ask of us and it's something we will look at."
After firing off an irate letter to hospital administration, the Carruthers were
told Carruthers's surgery will proceed Dec. 18 -- the date he'd originally been
given.
It was an unexpected call that summoned the couple to the hospital Dec. 4, buoyed
their long wait was over and Carruthers might soon be able to return to his job at
Coldstream Concrete.
Severe arthritis that forces him to walk with a cane and rely on painkillers drove
the cash crop farmer to give up his cement factory job two years ago and go on a
disability pension.
As the operating room nurse he'd been "kidding with" a few minutes earlier broke the
news the surgery was cancelled, Carruthers said he didn't believe it "until I saw
she had tears in her eyes."
That's when the frustration of his 15-month wait sank in.
"How much is pain and suffering worth?" an exasperated Carruthers asked in an
interview. "I'm only 47. I don't need to be putting up with this."
His frustration is shared by orthopedic surgeon Steven MacDonald, who was to peform
the surgery and will do the Dec. 18 procedure.
"When a 15-month wait comes down to surgery being cancelled right outside the OR, I
was frustrated, particularly for Mr. Carruthers," MacDonald said.
MacDonald said he's unaware what was happening in the other operating rooms the day
in question but said Carruthers's cancellation "was not due to a medical, anesthetic
or surgical reason."
He blamed a "general underfunding of the health-care system" for such cancellations,
which have happened before but are "unusual" in cases when the patient is prepped
for surgery.
MacDonald said he fears the system too often overlooks non-life-threatening cases
such as joint replacement, despite the fact victims suffer significant and prolonged
pain.
He said demand for these procedures will only increase as the population ages.
J Wootton
> Undoubtedly I come across as a competent, well informed individual, and I
> do attempt to make it clear that I have ultimate authority in the decision
> making process. Asking solid questions seems to put the Dr. in the proper
> state of mind.
Tried that, last year. I received a letter from my physician ending our
doctor/patient relationship.
High demand/low supply (of physicians) take advantage by getting rid of people who
ask questions.
FYI I was right on all 4 counts of what I was questionning, perhaps more.
J
Scott Nudds
: > If this is a Workers Comp. issue then there is your explanation. In
: > this instance the Dr. is stronly motivated to err on the side of the
: > workplace and not the patient.
: >
: > I know a gentleman who had a portion of his spine crushed by a load of
: > steel. He is obviously in continuous pain - I have visited his home and
: > seen his condition first hand. WC insists he can work. Yet he can sit in
: > his wheel chair for no more than a couple of hours without having to
: > retire to his bed.
: >
: > But this is not an example of a deterioration of the health care system.
: > It's a perpetual characteristic of the WCB.
J Wootton (jwoo...@home.com) wrote:
: so his physician is siding with WCB (ie erring on the side of the workplace)?
I have no idea. His medical problems are his affair. I know him well
enough to confirm the reality of his condition, but not well enough to ask
about his medical treatment. In his case though, I would be hard pressed
to say much without seeing is X-rays.
Scott Nudds
: > Undoubtedly I come across as a competent, well informed individual, and I
: > do attempt to make it clear that I have ultimate authority in the decision
: > making process. Asking solid questions seems to put the Dr. in the proper
: > state of mind.
J Wootton (jwoo...@home.com) wrote:
: Tried that, last year. I received a letter from my physician ending our
: doctor/patient relationship.
No offense, but I strongly doubt this. No Dr. I have ever encountered
has been offended by questions. In fact, patient education is one of
their primary goals.
Scott Nudds
: Asking for another x-ray is reasonable and not abuse of the system. Nor is it
: "whining behaviour".
It certainly can be both whining behaviour and abuse of the system, just
as asking for one more drink can be an abuse of alcohol.
Wootton wrote:
: Everything that you are skeptical about ("doubtful") is your "spin" and "skepticism"
: due to the fact that you seem to have a charmed experience with doctors. I can
: assure you that this is not the norm for everyone.
I must live a charmed life, since I know people who bitterly complain
about Bell Telephone, and I've never had a problem, people who complain
bitterly about police, but I've never had a problem, people who complain
bitterly about governmnt paperwork, but I've had to complete the same
paperwork and never had a problem.
Some people just complain. Some people look for minor problems to
justify their trivial complaints. Some people fixate on isolated events
to justify unreasonable criticism.
Wootton wrote:
: There were no 2nd opinions. If there was a WCB doctor involved with the
: physiotherapist, he did not contact the family physician to suggest a repeat X-ray.
: Everyone down the line, from point of fracture, failed this patient.
I gave my solution to that "problem".
Wootton wrote:
: Remember back in the thread, where I gave you a url from nurses association that
: there's a shortage of nurses? Shortly after appeared in our local newspaper a letter
: to the editor, from 5 Canadian nurses currently in Florida, stating that they'd like
: to come back to Canada and use their skills here but they are only being offered
: casual, part-time or "bed-pan" jobs at lower rates of pay where their skills are not
: being used and there's no incentive to upgrade their skills. For the time being,
: until things change, they will remain in Florida. (The Freep server was down that
: day, so I was unable to ccp: the letter here).
This does indeed represetnt mismanagement on the part of the
conservative Harris government that argued at the beginning of it's last
term that there were too many nurses and fired a whack of them, only now
to find that they need to be rehired.
When you vote for pricks, you can expect to get screwed.
J Wootton
Scott Nudds wrote:
Wootton wrote:
> : Remember back in the thread, where I gave you a url from nurses association that
> : there's a shortage of nurses? Shortly after appeared in our local newspaper a letter
> : to the editor, from 5 Canadian nurses currently in Florida, stating that they'd like
> : to come back to Canada and use their skills here but they are only being offered
> : casual, part-time or "bed-pan" jobs at lower rates of pay where their skills are not
> : being used and there's no incentive to upgrade their skills. For the time being,
> : until things change, they will remain in Florida. (The Freep server was down that
> : day, so I was unable to ccp: the letter here).
>
> This does indeed represetnt mismanagement on the part of the
> conservative Harris government that argued at the beginning of it's last
> term that there were too many nurses and fired a whack of them, only now
> to find that they need to be rehired.
>
> When you vote for pricks, you can expect to get screwed.
I didn't vote for him. and he didn't fire the nurses. The hospital corporations do the
hiring/firing.
J
J Wootton
Sheesh! I have her letter right here. (but no scanner). No, she didn't say "for
asking questions".
She just said "ending our doctor/patient relationship, 30 days notice".
J
J Wootton
Scott Nudds wrote:
> J Wootton (jwoo...@home.com) wrote:
> : Asking for another x-ray is reasonable and not abuse of the system. Nor is it
> : "whining behaviour".
>
> It certainly can be both whining behaviour and abuse of the system,
You are just contradicting yourself. See the very last paragraph for what you said. Now
you're saying the reverse?
J
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From: af...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Scott Nudds)
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Subject: Re: Canada's Nuclear Industry in 'Financial Meltdown'
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J Wootton (jwoo...@home.com) wrote:
: and your specific suggestion would have been?
If simple palpation couldn't reveal the problem, then I would have
offered a deal. I'll stop complaining about the pain if an x-ray
Scott Nudds
: I didn't vote for him. and he didn't fire the nurses. The hospital corporations do the
: hiring/firing.
He put others in a position of having to do his dirty work for him.
Same crime.
Scott Nudds
: Sheesh! I have her letter right here. (but no scanner). No, she didn't
: say "for asking questions".
: She just said "ending our doctor/patient relationship, 30 days notice".
Well, that's women for you. Always assuming you are in tune with their
internal thoughts.
(8-p
Scott Nudds
: Scott Nudds wrote:
: > J Wootton (jwoo...@home.com) wrote:
: > : Asking for another x-ray is reasonable and not abuse of the system. Nor is it
: > : "whining behaviour".
: >
: > It certainly can be both whining behaviour and abuse of the system,
J Wootton (jwoo...@home.com) wrote:
: You are just contradicting yourself. See the very last paragraph for what you said. Now
: you're saying the reverse?
There is no contradiction. Your statement was open ended. "asking for
another x-ray". I responded on that basis. That may have not been your
intent, I am simplify clarifying. One more X-Ray can be abuse. It may be
X-ray 1001 following X-ray 2-1000 which found nothing.
There is no need to respond to this post.