GPS getting you into trouble

[Ed Pawlowski]

Discovery Channel has a show on called Hell Roads. (It will be on
again Feb 4 and Feb 5). One of the roads is the Tail of The Dragon in
North Carolina with something like 300 turns in 20 miles.

One of the big problems is an increase in use by tractor-trailer rigs
because the gps tell them it is a shortcut. My guess is the drivers
are using the low priced auto use models rather than the specialty
units.

Seems as though the trucks cannot make the turns and stay in one lane
and on coming traffic comes around the corner and they get wiped out.
See it here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K16YnmJN0fc

[Sunshine]

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 22:32:18 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.net> wrote:

>
>Discovery Channel has a show on called Hell Roads. (It will be on
>again Feb 4 and Feb 5). One of the roads is the Tail of The Dragon in
>North Carolina with something like 300 turns in 20 miles.

318 in 11 miles, but who's counting? :-)

>One of the big problems is an increase in use by tractor-trailer rigs
>because the gps tell them it is a shortcut. My guess is the drivers
>are using the low priced auto use models rather than the specialty
>units.
>
>Seems as though the trucks cannot make the turns and stay in one lane
>and on coming traffic comes around the corner and they get wiped out.
>See it here
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K16YnmJN0fc

I drove the Dragon a year and a half ago, but I wasn't on the bike at
the time. It's a nice road, but I don't think it's at all deserving of
the reputation it has for being great. If pressed, I could name a half
dozen other roads that are as good when it comes to curves, but better
because they are wider and mostly have actual shoulders, and they
aren't full of trucks like the Dragon is getting to be. Oh, and they
aren't full of law enforcement, like the Dragon is getting to be.

The day I was there, I had to stop at one point to let a tow truck
drag a semi truck through a curve. The driver couldn't make the tight
curve, tried to back up to get a better angle, and only made things
worse. Having said all of that, I like TV programs like this. I agree
with the assessment that truckers are probably getting sucked in by
their GPS, thinking it's a shortcut. Once they're on the road, there's
no turning around. Signage or truck restrictions would be nice.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 22:28:40 -0600, Sunshine <suns...@none.invalid>
wrote:

>>See it here
>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K16YnmJN0fc
>
>I drove the Dragon a year and a half ago, but I wasn't on the bike at
>the time. It's a nice road, but I don't think it's at all deserving of
>the reputation it has for being great.

This show focused more on the deaths, but it seems most are self
inflicted. There can be a fine line between crazy and fun. In most
cases the accidents could be avoided by slowing down.

>
>The day I was there, I had to stop at one point to let a tow truck
>drag a semi truck through a curve. The driver couldn't make the tight
>curve, tried to back up to get a better angle, and only made things
>worse. Having said all of that, I like TV programs like this. I agree
>with the assessment that truckers are probably getting sucked in by
>their GPS, thinking it's a shortcut. Once they're on the road, there's
>no turning around. Signage or truck restrictions would be nice.

At this point, I cannot imaging NOT having huge sign restricting
trucks. A few months ago I was on a two lane road in Italy and when I
reached an intersection, the road I chose had signs for no trucks or
busses. I took the road and could not understand why the restriction.
About 5 miles later, I was squeezing between two buildings and around
a corner. Oh, that's why.

[Hans-Georg Michna]

Just watched the video. We have much more difficult roads here
in and near the Alps. But the locals usually know how to drive
safely, and so the accidents don't seem excessive.

At least one road here (the one serpentining up the mountain to
Urfeld at the Walchensee) is prohibited for bicycles on
weekends, but of course I still see some there.

Of course, all of these roads could be driven perfectly safely
if the drivers drove sensibly. The road itself is not dangerous,
stupid drivers are.

Hans-Georg

[Han]

Hans-Georg Michna <hans-georgN...@michna.com> wrote in
news:ccbai7hl2b0ccohsn...@4ax.com:

As a kid in the late 50'/early '60s, we went to Italy on vacation. One
of the ways back was through Switzerland, via the Gotthard Pass. On the
south side was a series of some 40 hairpin curves. One time we were
stuck behind a big Italian touring bus that couldn't get around the
hairpins in one try, because the curves were too sharp. Everyone of the
40 hairpins had to be taken forward, back, and forward again. As usual
in August in Switzerland, it was raining too, and BUSY!!

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

[La...@fishing.net]

On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:33:33 +0100, Hans-Georg Michna
<hans-georgN...@michna.com> wrote:

>Of course, all of these roads could be driven perfectly safely
>if the drivers drove sensibly. The road itself is not dangerous,
>stupid drivers are.
>
>Hans-Georg

Some roads are as well. Have you never went around a bend and found an off
camber turn that was not expected and had no warning? I have. Not fun on a
Motorcycle.

--
Larry
In Citrus County Florida.

[Hans-Georg Michna]

On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:32:27 -0500, La...@fishing.net wrote:

>On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:33:33 +0100, Hans-Georg Michna
><hans-georgN...@michna.com> wrote:

>>Of course, all of these roads could be driven perfectly safely
>>if the drivers drove sensibly. The road itself is not dangerous,
>>stupid drivers are.

>Some roads are as well. Have you never went around a bend and found an off
>camber turn that was not expected and had no warning? I have. Not fun on a
>Motorcycle.

The obvious rule is that you have to drive such that you can
easily stop your vehicle on that part of the road which you are
currently seeing. In other words, you have to be able to stop in
time in the worst case, which is an obstacle hidden behind the
next bend.

Actually the very worst case is oncoming traffic on the wrong,
i.e. your, side of the road, but we commonly take that risk,
trusting the other drivers. A truck that has to drive on the
wrong side of the road is probably slow, so it should not be as
much of a problem.

Motorcycles are no exception, riders have to follow the same
rule. If anything, they have to be even more careful, because
they lack the protection of the passenger cell of a car.

Also, motorcycles cannot swerve as suddenly as a car can,
because they first have to steer to the left to tilt the cycle
to the right, before they can steer a right curve, and vice
versa. They are not as maneuverable as a car.

Hans-Georg

[Mike Coon]

Hans-Georg Michna wrote:
> The obvious rule is that you have to drive such that you can
> easily stop your vehicle on that part of the road which you are
> currently seeing. In other words, you have to be able to stop in
> time in the worst case, which is an obstacle hidden behind the
> next bend.

Some years ago my way was blocked by a truck manoeuvring just after I had
rounded a bend. Realising that it might take a while, I reversed back round
the bend so that I could be seen and would not be hit by another driver who
had assumed the road would be clear...

Mike.
--
If reply address is Mike@@mjcoon.+.com (invalid), remove spurious "@"
and substitute "plus" for +.

[The Real Bev]

On 01/30/2012 06:28 AM, Hans-Georg Michna wrote:

> On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:32:27 -0500, La...@fishing.net wrote:
>
>><hans-georgN...@michna.com> wrote:
>
>>>Of course, all of these roads could be driven perfectly safely
>>>if the drivers drove sensibly. The road itself is not dangerous,
>>>stupid drivers are.
>
>>Some roads are as well. Have you never went around a bend and found an off
>>camber turn that was not expected and had no warning? I have. Not fun on a
>>Motorcycle.

OTOH, if the amount of road allocated to you suddenly necks down to 3
feet from an edge, you're better off on a bike! On the road to Big Bear
Lake (California) there's a lovely collapsing-radius curve which
regularly slings cars off the road. Fortunately the road people put a
nice wide blacktop apron in exactly the right place to protect the unwary.

> The obvious rule is that you have to drive such that you can
> easily stop your vehicle on that part of the road which you are
> currently seeing. In other words, you have to be able to stop in
> time in the worst case, which is an obstacle hidden behind the
> next bend.

That's my instinct, but when I'm tired and want to get home quickly I
tend to be a bit less careful.

> Actually the very worst case is oncoming traffic on the wrong,
> i.e. your, side of the road, but we commonly take that risk,
> trusting the other drivers. A truck that has to drive on the
> wrong side of the road is probably slow, so it should not be as
> much of a problem.
>
> Motorcycles are no exception, riders have to follow the same
> rule. If anything, they have to be even more careful, because
> they lack the protection of the passenger cell of a car.

They don't call them 'cagers' for nothing!

> Also, motorcycles cannot swerve as suddenly as a car can,
> because they first have to steer to the left to tilt the cycle
> to the right, before they can steer a right curve, and vice
> versa. They are not as maneuverable as a car.

I'm not sure about that. I never mastered the art of counter-steering
(basic clumsiness and, having done so more than once, an unwillingness
to throw myself to the ground) but I think motorcycles can both turn and
stop faster than cars. Motorcycles used to win the Baja 1000 until more
and more of the route became actual straightish road, and a motorcycle
can easily outrun a car on a twisty mountain road.

--
Cheers, Bev
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
"The object in life is not to be on the side of the
majority, but to be insane in such a useful way that
they can't commit you." -- Mark Edwards

[Hans-Georg Michna]

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 18:01:06 -0800, The Real Bev wrote:

>On 01/30/2012 06:28 AM, Hans-Georg Michna wrote:

>> Also, motorcycles cannot swerve as suddenly as a car can,
>> because they first have to steer to the left to tilt the cycle
>> to the right, before they can steer a right curve, and vice
>> versa. They are not as maneuverable as a car.

>I'm not sure about that. I never mastered the art of counter-steering
>(basic clumsiness and, having done so more than once, an unwillingness
>to throw myself to the ground)

Every motorcycle rider and also every bicycle rider masters the
art of counter-steering, because without it they cannot steer at
all.

>but I think motorcycles can both turn and
>stop faster than cars. Motorcycles used to win the Baja 1000 until more
>and more of the route became actual straightish road, and a motorcycle
>can easily outrun a car on a twisty mountain road.

Motorcycles have some advantages, like usually more power for
the same weight, but they cannot escape the pretty obvious
physical problem I described.

Before you can steer to one side, you first have to tilt the
bike, which takes a little time that cars don't have to waste.

Hans-Georg

[artleknock]

I am no longer a motorcyclist but do ride a bike, if I wish to turn
left, I lean left. DOH!

[Sunshine]

Yes, and to initiate the left lean, you turn right (momentarily).
That's called countersteering.

[Han]

Sunshine <suns...@none.invalid> wrote in
news:4lhgi7hmbbokeguhe...@4ax.com:

> to initiate the left lean, you turn right (momentarily).
> That's called countersteering.

Thanks for the explanation. I still ride my bicycle almost daily, but not
great distances.

[Sunshine]

On 31 Jan 2012 20:19:20 GMT, Han <nob...@nospam.not> wrote:

>Sunshine <suns...@none.invalid> wrote in
>news:4lhgi7hmbbokeguhe...@4ax.com:
>
>> to initiate the left lean, you turn right (momentarily).
>> That's called countersteering.
>
>Thanks for the explanation. I still ride my bicycle almost daily, but not
>great distances.

No problem. As long as you manage to get above walking speed on two
wheels, you're countersteering whether you realize it or not. It's not
optional, it's mandatory.

[The Real Bev]

On 01/31/2012 12:53 PM, Sunshine wrote:

> On 31 Jan 2012 20:19:20 GMT, Han<nob...@nospam.not> wrote:
>

>>Sunshine<suns...@none.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> to initiate the left lean, you turn right (momentarily).
>>> That's called countersteering.
>>
>>Thanks for the explanation. I still ride my bicycle almost daily, but not
>>great distances.
>
> No problem. As long as you manage to get above walking speed on two
> wheels, you're countersteering whether you realize it or not. It's not
> optional, it's mandatory.

If I do it deliberately the turn begins way too fast for me to react
properly. A different aspect: When I ski I use my ankles for control,
not my knees. Some of us are just clumsier than others of us.

--
Cheers, Bev
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people
maintaining a free civil government."
-- letter from Thomas Jefferson to Baron vonHumboldt, 1813

[who where]

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 19:15:02 +0000, artleknock
<artle...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I am no longer a motorcyclist but do ride a bike, if I wish to turn
>left, I lean left. DOH!

And if you have any grasp of physics, you would realise that you can't
just "lean left" (or right).

I have had *many* discussions with motorcyclists, and many have stated
what you have, only to return with a "doh!" when they actually
analysed what they do. As others have said, it IS counter-steering.

You "lean left" by the only method physics offers you - a small steer
to the right which starts you "toppling" left. Then, by steering left
you maintain balance in a turn. This is a perturbation of the normal
"micro-steering" that you subconsciously do to maintain balance on the
machine. You complete the turn by a small "oversteer" in the turn
direction.

If you think otherwise, it's time you went back out there and tried it
out. Then please come back and explain how you "lean left".

[Hans-Georg Michna]

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 19:15:02 +0000, artleknock wrote:

>I am no longer a motorcyclist but do ride a bike, if I wish to turn
>left, I lean left. DOH!

Doesn't quite work that way, because you cannot move the center
of gravity sideways that way. In other words, if you lean left,
the bike leans right, and the center of gravity stays where it
was.

Hans-Georg

[artleknock]

[artleknock]

But if I lean the bike and myself left I have to steer left or fall
off because my center of gravity goes straight on :-)

[who where]

On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 10:02:38 +0000, artleknock
<artle...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 18:04:28 +0100, Hans-Georg Michna
><hans-georgN...@michna.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 19:15:02 +0000, artleknock wrote:
>>
>>>I am no longer a motorcyclist but do ride a bike, if I wish to turn
>>>left, I lean left. DOH!
>>
>>Doesn't quite work that way, because you cannot move the center
>>of gravity sideways that way. In other words, if you lean left,
>>the bike leans right, and the center of gravity stays where it
>>was.
>>
>>Hans-Georg
>
>But if I lean the bike and myself left

(snip)

You can't. You haven't been following what has been explained to you.

[nob...@nada.com]

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 19:15:02 +0000, artleknock

And turn the front wheel to the right. That's counter-steering. If you
just turn the wheel to the left or keep it straight, you'd fall down.