Beneteau 311, Jeanneau 32.2 or Dufour 32 (lifting keel)?
Stef
welcome information, views, recommendations or experiences:
1. Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 32.2
2. Beneteau Oceanis Clipper 311
3. Dufour Integral 30 or 32
Regards
Stef
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PipedInp...@netscape.net
I haven't gotten my first yacht yet (true yachts
being a bit larger than 40 feet...but soon, soon,
soon....). I would however only consider boats
over 40 foot. This is a document link below that
might steer you into something larger since this
will be your second boat and you are willing to
wait for something to come along. You may
eventually want to take your boat a little farther
and stretch the distances a bit...only to find
yourself in over your head. Just an opinion.
Check the documentation out here on boats under 45
foot. "There are relatively few instances of a
vessel over 60 feet being capsized by a breaking
wave. In the Fastnet Race where the boats ranged
in size from 30 feet to 80 feet, all the capsizes
were suffered by boats under 45 feet."
http://www.sailrite.com/drogue_information.htm
Stef wrote:
>
> I am currently considering 3 lifting keel sailing boats and would
> welcome information, views, recommendations or experiences:
>
> 1. Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 32.2
I like their catamarans better, which is what I
would actually buy. ;-) I have even been called
a "RABID CAT-FANCIER" by another newsgroup reader.
http://www.cata-lagoon.com/
> 2. Beneteau Oceanis Clipper 311
I like the cc series myself.
http://www.beneteauusa.com/cc/oceancc.htm
> 3. Dufour Integral 30 or 32
Never looked at this manufacturer.
One of my favorite monohull manufacturers is
Pacific Seacraft. Crealock is supposed to be one
of the best designers of solid boats in the
world...not my opinion but of more than a few
books that I have read.
http://www.pacificseacraft.com/Pacific/pacboats.htm
http://www.pacificseacraft.com/Pacific/ps40/Brochure/pg1.htm
What about Hinkley
http://www.thehinckleyco.com/yachts/sailboats.html
While many of these are beyond the $45k range you
first declared perhaps some of their earlier
models would be available.
Simon Waldman
plough through teh whole of a lengthy document.
But the impression I get is that they are describing capsizes for boats
still attempting to RACE in poor conditions - eg Fastnet.
Meanwhile I have read a number of books by people who have made atlantic
crossings and/or circumnavigations in small boats (from 35 feet down to
21) who feel that the length of a boat has little relevance to its
survivability, provided a sea anchor is used approapriately - what the
US coatguard is calling a drogue. The important point is that such
vessels are no longer attempting to race, but merely to survive - I
think there is little doubt that a larger yacht will be able to continue
racing in stronger winds due to its greater weight.
All this is, of course, generalisations as any individual case will
depend greatly on the design of the yacht concerned and the degree of
seamanship and luck present.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Simon Waldman, England email: swal...@bigfoot.com
http://www.bigfoot.com/~swaldman/
--------------------------------------------------------------
PipedInp...@netscape.net
>
> Apologies if I haven't read the report well enough, as I didn't want to
> plough through teh whole of a lengthy document.
> But the impression I get is that they are describing capsizes for boats
> still attempting to RACE in poor conditions - eg Fastnet.
It is more likely that it is about being able to
survive on the open ocean...and with what amounts
to a "Fastnet-like" storm and the conditions it
brings.
> Meanwhile I have read a number of books by people who have made atlantic
> crossings and/or circumnavigations in small boats (from 35 feet down to
> 21) who feel that the length of a boat has little relevance to its
> survivability, provided a sea anchor is used approapriately - what the
> US coatguard is calling a drogue. The important point is that such
> vessels are no longer attempting to race, but merely to survive - I
> think there is little doubt that a larger yacht will be able to continue
> racing in stronger winds due to its greater weight.
There were many seperate conculsions reached.
3.2 Model Tests in Simulated Breaking Waves
http://www.sailrite.com/conclusions.htm
As to weight: "This 'worst case' load estimate
applies to relatively small boats, perhaps under
15,000 lbs. displacement, where the mass of the
boat is small compared to the mass of the water in
the breaking wave crest. For boats with higher
displacement it is reasonable to assume that the
acceleration caused by the breaking wave strike
will be less and thus the relative drogue load
should be smaller."
WHAT WAS CONCLUDED: Boats with more than 15,000
lbs displacement are less likely to capsize in a
storm. Acceleration caused by breaking waves has
less effect on larger boats.
3.1 Early Work
"Results of these early model tests indicated that
size played an important role in the ability of a
sailboat to resist capsize. This is not
surprising if you consider that the kinetic energy
necessary to capsize any boat design will vary as
the fourth power of the boat length. Thus a
60-foot sailboat requires sixteen times as much
kinetic energy from a moving wave crest as a
30-footer in order to capsize."
"Another aspect of the early model work was to
investigate the effect of design variations on
capsize; variations in mast weight, displacement,
freeboard, keel design, and the relationship of
beam and center of gravity were examined on the
previously described models. Using the hopper
arrangement, the models were tested to examine the
differences in behavior with respect to hull
design. The Tally Ho, New York 32, and Standfast
models were used. The three designs had about the
same capsize performance, despite varying design
features. it should be recognized that this type
testing is not sufficiently sensitive to pick up
small differences in capsize vulnerability."
and.... "This conclusion is the same one reached
in Jordan's early work, i.e., that moderate design
changes could not produce significant resistance
to capsize. Therefore, it was decided .to
investigate the use of sea anchors and drogues,
devices which would hold the vessel in a safer
orientation to the wind and waves and thus prevent
capsize."
and...." The overall conclusion of this early
testing was that a properly designed drogue could
prevent capsize."
WHAT WAS FOUND IN EARLY WORK: ..."the kinetic
energy necessary to capsize any boat design will
vary as the fourth power of the boat length. Thus
a 60-foot sailboat requires sixteen times as much
kinetic energy from a moving wave crest as a
30-footer in order to capsize." It is reasonable
to conclude then that larger boats do not capsize
as often due to the wave that would capsize them
occuring less frequently....and properly designed
drogues work.
5.3 Breaking Wave Strike
"The incidence of breaking wave capsizing
decreases sharply with an increase in boat size or
displacement. Many 30 to 40-foot boats have been
capsized but very few boats over 60 feet have been
capsized by a breaking wave. It is apparent that
there are few breaking waves with enough momentum
in the crest to drive a 60-foot boat up to wave
speed."
6.4 Boat Design
http://www.sailrite.com/boat_design.htm
"With a drogue deployed, a well-designed and
properly constructed fiberglass boat should be
capable of riding through a Fastnet type storm
with no structural damage."
> All this is, of course, generalisations as any individual case will
> depend greatly on the design of the yacht concerned and the degree of
> seamanship and luck present.
I have read some of those same books. Yes, I
agree in that "any individual case will depend
greatly on the design of the yacht concerned and
the degree of seamanship and luck present."
However the research does not attempt to define or
apply variables in the study that take seamanship
into effect. The document only addressed boat
length in relation to storm survivability and the
additional safety provided by a storm drouge.
This study revealed that boat length has a great
deal to do with the ability to continue to stay
upright in a storm, implying a non-capsized and
storm "survived" craft.
Those that don't make the crossing in smaller
craft often aren't around to write about their
efforts. ;-)
Taking into account the three points that I have
above it looks like larger boats of greater
displacement with a drogue are less likely to
capsize in a Fastnet-like storm. I would buy a
boat with a displacement above 15,000lbs, whose
length was as large as possible. Larger boats
being more resistant to capsize...toward that
magical "60 foot number"
Take it easy,
Thomas
(E-mail address given out on request)
Simon Waldman
However I should point out that the repeated statement about the energy
required to capsize varying as the fourth power of teh length is true
but misleading, as it doesn't mention the fact that the energy applied
by any given wave will vary as approximately the square of the length,
simply from teh difference in surface area.
Therefore there is only really a square relationship between length and
size of wave requried for a capsize.
PipedInp...@netscape.net
Simon Waldman wrote:
>
> OK, I must bow to someone who's read the report properly!
Uh...well that came with the attainment of the
B.S. in MIS. ;-) I've even written a few of my
own that put CNN and ABC to shame.
> However I should point out that the repeated statement about the energy
> required to capsize varying as the fourth power of teh length is true
> but misleading, as it doesn't mention the fact that the energy applied
> by any given wave will vary as approximately the square of the length,
> simply from teh difference in surface area.
>
> Therefore there is only really a square relationship between length and
> size of wave requried for a capsize.
Since the report did not reveal work showing a
graphical relationship between various lengths for
given energies or a fixed energy upon a body
varying in length it is an inference that must be
made barring the fact that knowledge about the
system and the relationships of the components in
the system exist. i.e. you have knowledge those
college kids may not have looked at or considered.
Being that it was research they may have to have
had the work done in a particular time frame and
did not consider all relationships possible,
length, beam, relationship between speed and shape
of boat to decrease capsize likelihood, and the
relationship that you speak of that more likely to
be found in enclosed volumes for a specific
shape(small & large monohulls and catamarans) with
relation to boat speed(sustainable or maximum) and
the kinetic energy of a given wave.
.
.
.
As there are at least a dozen amber colored
bottles here with my name on them...I can only do
the right thing and savor each while surfing the
net...looking for info on mutual funds, Java, and
sailing. Paint my hulls dark blue, my sails
bright white, and my decks teak! I am outta here!
;-)
Take it easy,
Thomas
The one and only, "RABID CAT-FANCIER"
Simon Waldman
> graphical relationship between various lengths for
> given energies or a fixed energy upon a body
> varying in length it is an inference that must be
> made barring the fact that knowledge about the
> system and the relationships of the components in
> the system exist. i.e. you have knowledge those
> college kids may not have looked at or considered.
Uh... I have no particular knowledge, this simply seemed common sense -
I realise that it will be an extremely inaccurate approximation.
Anyway, enjoy your amber bottles... =8-)
cheers,
-Simon.
Delegación de Alumnos
impensanble it has 10 meters lenth and was made in france
CThompson
I may be off the track but there was a French "Impensable" which won the
half ton world champion '73 or '74. however it was about 9m long. The boat
was designed by Andre Mauric and was a typical IOR half tonner of the day-
that is, it had a low cabin, masthead rig, very small mainsail, narrow
stern. I think Beneteau used it as the model for one of their earlier boats
(the First 30?). Could this be the boat?
Delegación de Alumnos <dele...@cdf.udc.es> wrote in article
<7lg733$gg$1...@salico.udc.es>...
stefan...@lansforsakringar.se
We where in the same situation about a year ago. (Sun Odyssey 32.2 or
Oceanis 311, same price)
I went to Oslo (closest possible location) to look at both the yachts,
and ended up with the Jeanneau, for a number of reasons;
1. Better accomodation, even though the Beneteau is both a little
longer and wider, they did not manage to use that in the cabin area,
the seat of the chart table is at the end of the setee(!).
2. Less "plastic" with a conventionally built hull, no plastic inner
liner in hull, just teak
3. Nicer looks (subjective!)
4. Our previous yacht was a Jeanneau Fantasia, which was very good.
Now we are in the middle of the first season with our new 32.2 and all
has worked out just fine, the only drawback so far is that the
mainsheet can not be reached from behind the wheel, but that will
easily be solved with an extra clam-cleat, get Yachting World of May
1998, where 32.2 is on test, they got it right in the review i think.
Regards
Stephan
e-mail; dor...@input-consulting.se