The RV Consumer Group - Long
Marge & Stan Barnett
Consumer Group because our own experience was universally positive. We
went to an RV show two years ago because we got free tickets. We had
owned a pop-up in the 70's and enjoyed camping, but demanding careers
and growing kids kept us away from the trailer and we sold it. I don't
think I had given a moment's thought to RVing since. The advances made
since the 70's knocked us out. One fiver had a fireplace! Roughing it
was no longer part of the equation. Modern RV's were clearly comfortable
and luxurious. We were hooked again. However, we had no idea of what to
buy. I bought a "Trailer Life" and "Motorhome" to see what was on the
market. I got an Affinity "Buyer's Guide" to get some idea of cost. I
did some online research at manufacturer's web sites to see what the
manufacturer's said about their own products. Then I began to cast
around for the RV "Consumer's Reports" to get some unbiased idea of
product quality. The bottom line was that there was only one independent
organization doing RV quality assessments. That is the RV Consumer
Group. I purchased the book package and read it thoroughly. I was struck
in a negative way by the fact that the RVCG only used a small sample of
on-site manufacturer's inspections and used vehicle examinations. For
the most part they used computer analysis and sampling for their
judgements and that left, in my mind, lots of room for mistakes. So, I
went out and looked on my own. Fortunately, the Denver area has numerous
RV dealers offering a wide variety of brands/models. I compared the RVCG
opinions with my own, and generally - emphasize generally - found that
their quality judgments matched mine. Over time, remember we worked at
this just about every Saturday for two years, we moved from looking at
fivers to gas motorhomes to diesel pushers - meanwhile keeping up our
reading both on the web and buying just about every book on RV'ing that
we could find. We found the RVCG web site comments very useful. We
rented a motorhome and went out for two weeks in it. We had some
full-timing friends who submitted to numerous interrogations. Gradually
we decided on three brands that we could both afford (an important
factor for us) and that had a reasonable quality level. We also
determined that there were lots of poor quality vehicles on the market.
Here are some things to look for in what I consider a bad RV
investment: There are no backsplashes around the sinks, the
manufacturer uses putty or gimp to fill the gaps between the sink and
wall. The shower stall does not go all the way to the roof, allowing
water to get between the stall and the wall. There are no grommets
between the hoses/wires and the wood, allowing the wires/hoses to rub
against the wood. Most of the interior partitions are made of inferior
quality pressed board. The cabinetry is inferior with thin "picture
frame" doors, bad drawer fits and poor drawer glides. Gaps in the
interior walls are covered by plastic trim tape instead of heavier trim
pieces. Wood trim is poorly finished with out-of-site wood not sanded.
This is only a sample of my "don't buy" list. Not coincidentally, this
list pretty well matches one provided by RVCG. RVCG's web site also gave
us information on some brands that have poor customer service records.
We avoided those brands. When we made the final purchase decision, I had
RVCG's price data in hand. Without that data, I would have had to try to
"back-in" to the purchase price from used vehicle data. I also knew to
ask my salesman for his full retail price list and to custom tailor my
vehicle knowing everything the manufacturer had to offer - and the
appropriate discount to expect. As a result, we got a very good vehicle
at an affordable price. I don't think the RVCG is perfect. I think their
staff is too small and that hurts their service. I suspect they have
some predjudices against certain brands. But, they are the only
independent organization offering RV quality and pricing data. They also
have a much needed program to increase RV safety. I strongly recommend
them to anybody not already an expert on RV matters. Stan.
Cindy
Is this true?
We are looking for a good 5th Wheel and any source that might have consumer
ratings on them.
W F Sill wrote in message ...
>Not long ago, Marge & Stan Barnett <sjmk...@qwestinternet.net> wrote:
>
>>I'm always a little surprised to read a negative report on the RV
>>Consumer Group because our own experience was universally positive.
>
>Thanx for an excellent and factual summary, Stan.
>
>When you consider that some people would be unhappy if they won the
>lottery with a free ticket, it is not surprising that a tiny minority
>P&M about RVCG. There are, of course, some legitimate reasons to
>beef: their Head Guy ( JD Gallant ) is fully as opinionated as yrs
>trly and not always the soul of courtesy; there information does lack
>the level of authenticated details you might like for many industry
>offerings; and of course there is always the matter of accuracy
>problems.
>
>Having admitted those problems (and recognizing there may well be
>others of importance to some) I see no reason NOT to recommend them to
>anyone contemplating a costly rv purchase. IMO there are only two
>broad classes of prospective buyers who can be expected to be unhappy
>with the RVCG's work:
>
>1) Those who already have a very clear idea what they want and have
>the considerable expertise & experience to make a good choice without
>help. There certainly are some of those people around, and I don't
>blame them for not joining up.
>
>2) The tiny but vocal minority of know-it-alls who view all counsel
>other than their own with contempt. There is no help for them anyway
>since they imagine themselves to be wiser and better informed than
>anyone on the planet Earth, and there is no point in trying to
>persuade them to get help.
>
>For all the rest of you out there considering a new or recent MH, I
>urge you to spend the price of a tank of fuel to find out what RVCG
>has to offer. I don't have a nickel invested because I'm not in the
>market, but if I was my first purchase would be RVCG's membership.
>
>Will KD3XR ---- the Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
>In baseball a 500 hitter is a hero - how good
>are you?
>
W F Sill
Scott Leahy
<sjmk...@qwestinternet.net> said:
>I'm always a little surprised to read a negative report on the RV
On March 27th, I was told by Connie Gallant in a phone conversation
that they had convened a meeting of the board of directors of RVCG and
decided that they were going to post their financial statement on
their website for all members to see. She did not equivocate in this.
As of today, one month later -- nothing.
In contradiction to Stan's praise, I have a few things to say about
RVCG since becoming a member in October of 1999.
I suggest, first of all, that before sending them ANY money, you check
out www.rv.org Pay attention to the memberships offered.
Full membership $98
Basic membership $35
Anybody see anything different?
Full membership gets you JD's questionable books and a login to the
website.
Basic gets you the website only.
Pay just the basic fee and you will be allowed access to their RVCG
policy page. There you will read the following:
_________________________________
"RV Consumer Group is a nonprofit, educational and consumer service
organization. It is an affiliate of Base Camps of America -- a
nonprofit, educational organization -- and it is managed by a
directorship as elected by the participating members of the parent
organization.
There are two types of memberships in RV Consumer Group: general
membership and directing members.
General members fall under four classifications:
Basic Members
Full Members
Supporting Members
Lifetime Members
Any general member may become a participating member by working in
volunteer activities with Base Camps of America or RV Consumer Group,
or by becoming a Lifetime-Plus Member through a substantial
contribution. Anyone affiliated with RV manufacturers is ineligible
for participating membership status."
________________________________
Thus we learn that there are several levels of membership mentioned:
Full, basic, supporting, lifetime, general, participating, and
directing.
Sorta like Scientology.
Go to the financial statement portion of the page -- the one Connie
assured me would within the week feature a current financial
statement.
It says:
_____________________________
"A current financial report is available to any participating member."
______________________________
Connie lied to me.
Folks, these people have a duty to live up to their commitments, same
as any manufacturer or business. Actually, their call is even higher;
they are supposed to be standing up for us. My view is that they are
sitting on their asses for us real hard.
Every dealing I have with them, starting with their disorganized,
unhelpful website, abyssmal communication with the members, dishonest
representation of the the organizational structure, failure to live up
to their commitments (quarterly newsletter suddenly becomes
semi-annual, no notification) up through their lie to me, convinces me
more and more that JD Gallant is the Jim Jones of the RV industry. He
is getting by on charismatic one-on-one, tossing crumbs to ignorant
people and loving them just enough to not tell them where the money
comes from or how it's spent
It's just slipshod. They don't deserve a dime of your money. They have
nothing to offer that a commercial website couldn't put together in
two or three days of work. They are doing nothing to organize RV
owners into anything remotely coherent. There are no revelations
forthcoming from them that I have seen. Certainly nothing to earn the
puppy devotion espoused by Stan, Will, Ralph, GKramer, (who said I
sounded just like an RV dealer<g>), Dave Balleria, and a host of
others. RVCG is a warm, comfortable rack of tits that you can easily
latch onto for a price. You are welcome to your spot, but I've had it
with them.
Scott
sle...@ohnayamspay.ridgenet.net
(For email, ixnay the igpay atinlay)
dtbla...@worldnet.att.net
> It's just slipshod. They don't deserve a dime of your money. They have
> nothing to offer that a commercial website couldn't put together in
> two or three days of work. They are doing nothing to organize RV
> owners into anything remotely coherent. There are no revelations
> forthcoming from them that I have seen.
I've never even seen RVCG so I certainly cannot affirm or
debate Scott's comments. But everything I've read about it
on this newsgroup leaves me with the perception that its
members are proclaiming "It must be good! I paid
ninety-eight bucks for it."
--
==============================================
Dale
*****To reply, delete && from displayed email
address.*****
Ralph Lindberg & Ellen Winnie
<sle...@ohnayamspay.ridgenet.net> wrote:
> On March 27th, I was told by Connie Gallant in a phone conversation
> that they had convened a meeting of the board of directors of RVCG and
> decided that they were going to post their financial statement on
> their website for all members to see. She did not equivocate in this.
>
> As of today, one month later -- nothing.
Thank you Scott, I had been wondering
> In contradiction to Stan's praise, I have a few things to say about
> RVCG since becoming a member in October of 1999.
<snip>
While Scott is entitled to his opinion, several points I agree with
(ie the personality business, etc). There are others I don't. The info
they offer would but be given by any commercial outfit, since they do
say BAD things about rigs. Yes there are things wrong with the RVCG,
Scott you sound like someone that has fallen out of love, and there is
nothing 'good' about your former lover. If you had bothered reading what
I have said about RVCG since -before- this newsgroup even existed you
would have known about the problems this group has. But then the 'puppy
like' comment shows that you haven't bothered to read the negatives
first, which is probably part of why you are so upset with them.
RVCG has problems, they are certainly not perfect. When they raised
the rates (years ago), and started required a certain number of hours to
work to be 'full voting members' I was upset, when they lowered the size
of newsletters (years ago), I was upset. But they are very much JD
shows, and listening is not his long suit. But it is still the only
general source not beholden to the RV industry.
--
Ralph Lindberg personal email n7...@amsat.org
RV and Camping FAQ http://kendaco.telebyte.com/rlindber/rv
If Windows is the answer I would really like to know what the question is
W F Sill
a lengthy broadside on RVCG, including:
>On March 27th, I was told by Connie Gallant in a phone conversation
>that they had convened a meeting of the board of directors of RVCG and
>decided that they were going to post their financial statement on
>their website for all members to see. She did not equivocate in this.
>
>As of today, one month later -- nothing.
<snip>
>Connie lied to me.
A valid and very disturbing observation.
>Folks, these people have a duty to live up to their commitments, same
>as any manufacturer or business. Actually, their call is even higher;
>they are supposed to be standing up for us.
Agreed. We have every right to expect candor and integrity, if not
perfection.
> . . . . . . My view is that they are
>sitting on their asses for us real hard.
>
>Every dealing I have with them, starting with their disorganized,
>unhelpful website, abyssmal communication with the members, dishonest
>representation of the the organizational structure, failure to live up
>to their commitments (quarterly newsletter suddenly becomes
>semi-annual, no notification) up through their lie to me, convinces me
>more and more that JD Gallant is the Jim Jones of the RV industry. He
>is getting by on charismatic one-on-one, tossing crumbs to ignorant
>people and loving them just enough to not tell them where the money
>comes from or how it's spent
Pretty strong words. I hope they are not true, but if they are the
potential for RVCG to be a real force in the marketplace is severely
limited.
>It's just slipshod. They don't deserve a dime of your money. They have
>nothing to offer that a commercial website couldn't put together in
>two or three days of work.
Ummm. Not a fair criticism, IMO. What they do have to offer in the
form of buying guides is something no commercial firm ever HAS put
together - or is likely to. I don't judge them by the professionalism
of their web site - lots of teenagers can do glitzy sites.
> . . . . . .They are doing nothing to organize RV owners into
>anything remotely coherent.
A valid observation, but I am not sure how you'd do that. We are a
stubborn and independent lot, very hard to organize!
> . . . . .There are no revelations
>forthcoming from them that I have seen. Certainly nothing to earn the
>puppy devotion espoused by Stan, Will, Ralph, GKramer, (who said I
>sounded just like an RV dealer<g>), Dave Balleria, and a host of
>others. RVCG is a warm, comfortable rack of tits that you can easily
>latch onto for a price. You are welcome to your spot, but I've had it
>with them.
>
>Scott
Scott, many of your points are valid and well made but you have
stepped over the line by characterizing my POV as "puppy devotion",
and have likewise done a disservice to Ralph and several others, who
have often had critical things to say about RVCG. I have read a lot
of supportive comments, and certainly made a lot of them myself, but
"devotion"??? I have been quite critical of some aspects of their
work and have made no secret of the fact that I don't even belong!
Don't demonize your friends to make a point, however valid it is
otherwise!
OK, that's my complaint about your complaint. But you raise some
important and disturbing questions about RVCG. I trust you will
continue to try to get answers and post your findings.
Personally, I also have serious reservations about Consumers Union,
whose recommendations have often been idiotic and whose leadership has
included such notorious nitwits as Ralph Nader. Still, when the
smoke clears, the wise buyer will CONSIDER the recommendations of
those who have taken the trouble to at least TRY to make an objective
analysis of what's available. Even if you don't like their style.
So, much as I am annoyed at RVCG's failure to provide the financial
and organizational information you've asked for, I still see their
product as the best available for the prospective rv buyer trying to
make an informed decision about what to buy. Is there a better
source? I regret to say I'm not aware of any. As far as I know, the
only competing "reviews" are those performed by magazine writers.
Good information - even if compiled by an egomaniac - is better than
poor information provided by nuns.
Lon VanOstran
W F Sill wrote:
<snip>
> For all the rest of you out there considering a new or recent MH, I
> urge you to spend the price of a tank of fuel to find out what RVCG
> has to offer. I don't have a nickel invested because I'm not in the
> market, but if I was my first purchase would be RVCG's membership.
>
> Will KD3XR ---- the Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
> In baseball a 500 hitter is a hero - how good
> are you?
I learned a *lot* from RVCG, and often recommended them. That ended when
they proved, by spaming us, that they know this group exists, yet they
choose to ignore the collective wisdom found here. This demonstrates a
decided lack of desire to provide the information they claim to seek.
Lon, who believes part of what he sees with his own eyes.
GBinNC
wrote:
>I learned a *lot* from RVCG, and often recommended them. That ended when
>they proved, by spamming us, that they know this group exists, yet they
>choose to ignore the collective wisdom found here. This demonstrates a
>decided lack of desire to provide the information they claim to seek.
Excellent point, Lon, and well said.
I take no stand on the group from either side and probably will never
need their services. But it does seem strange that they would not want
to be part of these newsgroups.
I'd say without reservation that the good folks here have more
collective wisdom and experience to share about all the various areas
of RVing than any other group that could be assembled anywhere on the
planet.
RVCG's utter lack of participation says something about them, and
unfortunately it's not good.
How about it, RVCG -- any comments?
GB in NC
R Lindberg / E Winnie
> I learned a *lot* from RVCG, and often recommended them. That ended when
> they proved, by spaming us, that they know this group exists, yet they
> choose to ignore the collective wisdom found here. This demonstrates a
> decided lack of desire to provide the information they claim to seek.
Lon, I rather suspect that was a misguided member, as it didn't come
from either the rv.org domain, or the local provider that hosts them
(olywa.net?).
As to the newsgroup, they (RVCG) have known about it since it started
(the newsgroup), there were members of the RVCG invovled in the formation.
I also talked to both JD and... (don't remember right now) when the
newsgroup first got going and I have been in touch with them off and on
since then.
-----
Ralph Lindberg N7BSN <n7...@amsat.org> ICQ#5988954
RV and Camping FAQ <http://kendaco.telebyte.net/rlindber/rv/>
Oh Bother said the Borg, we've assimilated Po
George Lowry
>So, much as I am annoyed at RVCG's failure to provide the financial
>and organizational information you've asked for, I still see their
>product as the best available for the prospective rv buyer trying to
>make an informed decision about what to buy. Is there a better
>source? I regret to say I'm not aware of any. As far as I know, the
>only competing "reviews" are those performed by magazine writers.
From what I have observed, most "reviews" written in the various
magazines are written by egocentrics that are only interested in
pleasing the manufacturer so that they can gain more favors from them.
I have NEVER seen a critical review in ANY RV publication. When I
asked Rick Rouse, of TL Enterprises, about this some years ago, he
honestly said that they don't want to antagonize their advertisers.
If they got an RV that was not up to a standard whereby they could
praise it, they would call the manufacturer and suggest that he pick
it up and no mention would be made...
It would seem that the RVIA, if IT had any integrity, would endorse
the efforts of RVCG or another similar organization so that the
industry would be cleaned up and the general reputation enhanced. I
don't expect to see that in my lifetime.... So RVCG is still the best
available, even with its shortcomings..
George
>
>Good information - even if compiled by an egomaniac - is better than
>poor information provided by nuns.
>
Amy McMullen
information for those choosing rving instead of a lot of nit picking,
personal insults, bigoted remarks, and off the wall political statements.
It doesn't surprise me that RVCG doesn't participate.
I choose to use the RVCG because they are the only non-industry supported
group offering information on motorhome safety and quality. (Hey, if
someone else wants to offer a competing service I'm sure I'd be interested
in it too.) When I started researching the enormous purchase of a MH, I
chose to take advantage of the information offered by RVCG and I am glad I
did. Sure they are opinionated, but I take most things I read with the
requisite grain of salt and in one case I fully researched a rig that they
did not rate and found out why, It had a payload capacity of 400 pounds.
My feeling is that they are a small outfit, likely dominated by one strong
personality, and likely underfunded, but I believe their heart is in the
right place and that they are offering a valuable service to those of us
adrift in an unregulated industry.
I have found a lot of information that is helpful on this NG and for that I
am grateful. I also understand that our glorious tradition of free speech
thrives on the internet like nowhere else. Therefore I am not urging you to
curb your curmudgeonly instincts and gag yourselves. I also have the
freedom to pick what I wish to read, and I exercise that right with great
abandon. I will, however continue to recommend the RVCG because without
them I would likely have made some very costly (not to mention embarrassing)
mistakes in my purchase. For that too, I am grateful.
Amy
Who is young enough to know better than to get involved in a newsgroup
discussion.
W F Sill <wi...@epix.net> wrote in message
news:r10jgs4c0udknr76i...@4ax.com...
> Not long ago, Scott Leahy <sle...@ohnayamspay.ridgenet.net> wrote
> a lengthy broadside on RVCG, including:
>
> >On March 27th, I was told by Connie Gallant in a phone conversation
> >that they had convened a meeting of the board of directors of RVCG and
> >decided that they were going to post their financial statement on
> >their website for all members to see. She did not equivocate in this.
> >
> >As of today, one month later -- nothing.
>
> <snip>
>
> >Connie lied to me.
>
> A valid and very disturbing observation.
>
> >Folks, these people have a duty to live up to their commitments, same
> >as any manufacturer or business. Actually, their call is even higher;
> >they are supposed to be standing up for us.
>
> Agreed. We have every right to expect candor and integrity, if not
> perfection.
>
> > . . . . . . My view is that they are
> >sitting on their asses for us real hard.
> >
> >Every dealing I have with them, starting with their disorganized,
> >unhelpful website, abyssmal communication with the members, dishonest
> >representation of the the organizational structure, failure to live up
> >to their commitments (quarterly newsletter suddenly becomes
> >semi-annual, no notification) up through their lie to me, convinces me
> >more and more that JD Gallant is the Jim Jones of the RV industry. He
> >is getting by on charismatic one-on-one, tossing crumbs to ignorant
> >people and loving them just enough to not tell them where the money
> >comes from or how it's spent
>
> Pretty strong words. I hope they are not true, but if they are the
> potential for RVCG to be a real force in the marketplace is severely
> limited.
>
> >It's just slipshod. They don't deserve a dime of your money. They have
> >nothing to offer that a commercial website couldn't put together in
> >two or three days of work.
>
> Ummm. Not a fair criticism, IMO. What they do have to offer in the
> form of buying guides is something no commercial firm ever HAS put
> together - or is likely to. I don't judge them by the professionalism
> of their web site - lots of teenagers can do glitzy sites.
>
> > . . . . . .They are doing nothing to organize RV owners into
> >anything remotely coherent.
>
> A valid observation, but I am not sure how you'd do that. We are a
> stubborn and independent lot, very hard to organize!
>
> > . . . . .There are no revelations
> >forthcoming from them that I have seen. Certainly nothing to earn the
> >puppy devotion espoused by Stan, Will, Ralph, GKramer, (who said I
> >sounded just like an RV dealer<g>), Dave Balleria, and a host of
> >others. RVCG is a warm, comfortable rack of tits that you can easily
> >latch onto for a price. You are welcome to your spot, but I've had it
> >with them.
> >
> >Scott
>
> Scott, many of your points are valid and well made but you have
> stepped over the line by characterizing my POV as "puppy devotion",
> and have likewise done a disservice to Ralph and several others, who
> have often had critical things to say about RVCG. I have read a lot
> of supportive comments, and certainly made a lot of them myself, but
> "devotion"??? I have been quite critical of some aspects of their
> work and have made no secret of the fact that I don't even belong!
> Don't demonize your friends to make a point, however valid it is
> otherwise!
>
> OK, that's my complaint about your complaint. But you raise some
> important and disturbing questions about RVCG. I trust you will
> continue to try to get answers and post your findings.
>
> Personally, I also have serious reservations about Consumers Union,
> whose recommendations have often been idiotic and whose leadership has
> included such notorious nitwits as Ralph Nader. Still, when the
> smoke clears, the wise buyer will CONSIDER the recommendations of
> those who have taken the trouble to at least TRY to make an objective
> analysis of what's available. Even if you don't like their style.
>
> So, much as I am annoyed at RVCG's failure to provide the financial
> and organizational information you've asked for, I still see their
> product as the best available for the prospective rv buyer trying to
> make an informed decision about what to buy. Is there a better
> source? I regret to say I'm not aware of any. As far as I know, the
> only competing "reviews" are those performed by magazine writers.
>
Amy McMullen
> >On March 27th, I was told by Connie Gallant in a phone conversation
> >that they had convened a meeting of the board of directors of RVCG and
> >decided that they were going to post their financial statement on
> >their website for all members to see. She did not equivocate in this.
> >
> >As of today, one month later -- nothing.
>
> <snip>
>
> >Connie lied to me.
>
> A valid and very disturbing observation.
>
> >Folks, these people have a duty to live up to their commitments, same
> >as any manufacturer or business. Actually, their call is even higher;
> >they are supposed to be standing up for us.
>
> Agreed. We have every right to expect candor and integrity, if not
> perfection.
>
> > . . . . . . My view is that they are
> >sitting on their asses for us real hard.
> >
> >Every dealing I have with them, starting with their disorganized,
> >unhelpful website, abyssmal communication with the members, dishonest
> >representation of the the organizational structure, failure to live up
> >to their commitments (quarterly newsletter suddenly becomes
> >semi-annual, no notification) up through their lie to me, convinces me
> >more and more that JD Gallant is the Jim Jones of the RV industry. He
> >is getting by on charismatic one-on-one, tossing crumbs to ignorant
> >people and loving them just enough to not tell them where the money
> >comes from or how it's spent
>
> Pretty strong words. I hope they are not true, but if they are the
> potential for RVCG to be a real force in the marketplace is severely
> limited.
>
> >It's just slipshod. They don't deserve a dime of your money. They have
> >nothing to offer that a commercial website couldn't put together in
> >two or three days of work.
>
> Ummm. Not a fair criticism, IMO. What they do have to offer in the
> form of buying guides is something no commercial firm ever HAS put
> together - or is likely to. I don't judge them by the professionalism
> of their web site - lots of teenagers can do glitzy sites.
>
> > . . . . . .They are doing nothing to organize RV owners into
> >anything remotely coherent.
>
> A valid observation, but I am not sure how you'd do that. We are a
> stubborn and independent lot, very hard to organize!
>
> > . . . . .There are no revelations
> >forthcoming from them that I have seen. Certainly nothing to earn the
> >puppy devotion espoused by Stan, Will, Ralph, GKramer, (who said I
> >sounded just like an RV dealer<g>), Dave Balleria, and a host of
> >others. RVCG is a warm, comfortable rack of tits that you can easily
> >latch onto for a price. You are welcome to your spot, but I've had it
> >with them.
> >
> >Scott
>
R Lindberg / E Winnie
> From what I have observed, most "reviews" written in the various
> magazines are written by egocentrics that are only interested in
> pleasing the manufacturer so that they can gain more favors from them.
> I have NEVER seen a critical review in ANY RV publication. When I
> asked Rick Rouse, of TL Enterprises, about this some years ago, he
> honestly said that they don't want to antagonize their advertisers.
The closest to a critical review (from an AGI publication) was when
they reviewed the Rialta, in Trailer Life (not MotorHome) and they did
talk about things like, it was easy to overload. I think they were in a
position where they had to review the rig, so they buried a motor home
review in the trailer publication.
Lon VanOstran
R Lindberg / E Winnie wrote:
>
> Lon, I rather suspect that was a misguided member, as it didn't come
> from either the rv.org domain, or the local provider that hosts them
> (olywa.net?).
>
> As to the newsgroup, they (RVCG) have known about it since it started
> (the newsgroup), there were members of the RVCG invovled in the formation.
> I also talked to both JD and... (don't remember right now) when the
> newsgroup first got going and I have been in touch with them off and on
> since then.
This confirms that they do indeed know we exist, and the total lack of
any response, *ever*, confirms that they ignore us entirely. I stand by
my new opinion regarding what JD is attempting to accomplish. I did not
renew my membership.
John Lindsey
Group.....
"But, they are the only independent organization offering RV quality and
pricing data."
Um...Marge, Stan and everybody else, not so any longer. There is a new
group in town. http://www.rvgroupwise.com/Default.htm
We do not know how "good" they are, how "independent" they are or how useful
they are. But it seems that we have an alternate or supplement to JD,
Connie and all the folks at the RV Consumer Group. Competition? Hope so.
Like chicken soup - can't hurt!
John
W F Sill
> . . . . . There is a new
>group in town. http://www.rvgroupwise.com/Default.htm
>
>We do not know how "good" they are, how "independent" they are or how useful
>they are. But it seems that we have an alternate or supplement to JD,
>Connie and all the folks at the RV Consumer Group. Competition? Hope so.
>Like chicken soup - can't hurt!
>John
Interesting. Thanx for posting that. I have emailed for more
information because the "who we are" web page provides NO information
on who they are, who pays the bills, or even where they are.
Let's see what comes of it.
Ralph Lindberg & Ellen Winnie
Lindsey" <john...@home.com> wrote:
> Marge & Stan Barnett wrote in a long message praising the RV Consumer
> Group.....
>
> "But, they are the only independent organization offering RV quality and
> pricing data."
>
> Um...Marge, Stan and everybody else, not so any longer. There is a new
> group in town. http://www.rvgroupwise.com/Default.htm
It's at least a start. However I notice their data-base is months
behind their published schedule (Dec 99).
They also are square in the Air Hitch situation, with people claiming
they know what is what on both sides (me I'm betting Craig K gets his
tootie whacked in court)
Scott Leahy
my acidic post on the RVCG with the following:
>Not long ago, Scott Leahy <sle...@ohnayamspay.ridgenet.net> wrote
>a lengthy broadside on RVCG, including:
>>It's just slipshod. They don't deserve a dime of your money. They have
>>nothing to offer that a commercial website couldn't put together in
>>two or three days of work.
>
>Ummm. Not a fair criticism, IMO. What they do have to offer in the
>form of buying guides is something no commercial firm ever HAS put
>together - or is likely to. I don't judge them by the professionalism
>of their web site - lots of teenagers can do glitzy sites.
I think it is fair as regards the RVCG "Member Library". It is not a
matter of glitz, it's a matter of organization. There is *some* useful
information there, but not much. What there is is buried.
Gallant wants to sell books and dealdata reports, and I suspect that
this motive is the prime reason for the neglect and disorganization of
the website and elimination of the quarterly newsletter.
<snip>
>Scott, many of your points are valid and well made but you have
>stepped over the line by characterizing my POV as "puppy devotion",
>and have likewise done a disservice to Ralph and several others, who
>have often had critical things to say about RVCG. I have read a lot
>of supportive comments, and certainly made a lot of them myself, but
>"devotion"??? I have been quite critical of some aspects of their
>work and have made no secret of the fact that I don't even belong!
>Don't demonize your friends to make a point, however valid it is
>otherwise!
Will, did you ever read something the next day and go, "duh"? As Ralph
pointed out, I have obviously missed posts critical of the
organization from him, you, and probably others. Sorry for the puppy
devotion crack. Please consider it retracted.
However, I do not retract any criticism of RVCG. I think it's a weird
business venture selling overpriced books under the guise of a
consumer's rights organization.
I am going overseas for a couple weeks on Monday, but when I get back
I am going to see if there aren't other ways to obtain a copy of the
finances. The IRS maybe, or the State of Washington. Seems I've heard
somewhere that non-profits have to disclose finances. Maybe I'll have
better luck with them than with Connie.
Neon John
John Lindsey wrote:
>
> Marge & Stan Barnett wrote in a long message praising the RV Consumer
> Group.....
>
> "But, they are the only independent organization offering RV quality and
> pricing data."
>
> Um...Marge, Stan and everybody else, not so any longer. There is a new
> group in town. http://www.rvgroupwise.com/Default.htm
>
> We do not know how "good" they are, how "independent" they are or how useful
> they are. But it seems that we have an alternate or supplement to JD,
> Connie and all the folks at the RV Consumer Group. Competition? Hope so.
> Like chicken soup - can't hurt!
Looks pretty useless to me. Reference this:
1. Objective Information - Consumer Feedback Data
RV GroupWise is somewhat like an electronic Consumers Reports
for RVers, except instead of us doing the product research, we
compile your RV experience (and that of other RV owners) into a
giant database and make it available to members.
In other words, they're not going to do anything other than to give
people a place to bitch. Since most people who are satisfied with a
product don't bother looking up places like this and writing, it'll
be just like all other (usually free) similar databases - a
repository of bitching. Sorry, not interested. At least here in
the net, if someone badmouths a product, I can query the person for
more information. Hard to do that to a database.
Think I'll pass.
John
--
John De Armond
johngd...@bellsouth.net
http://personal.bellsouth.net/~johngd/
Neon John's Custom Neon
Cleveland, TN
"Bendin' Glass 'n Passin' Gas"
W F Sill
part:
>On Fri, 28 Apr 2000 13:04:33 GMT, W F Sill <wi...@epix.net> replied to
>my acidic post on the RVCG with the following:
>Will, did you ever read something the next day and go, "duh"? As Ralph
>pointed out, I have obviously missed posts critical of the
>organization from him, you, and probably others. Sorry for the puppy
>devotion crack. Please consider it retracted.
Your gracious apology noted & accepted.
Good comments generally about RVCG's performance on some issues -- I
would hope we don't end up throwing out the baby with the bath water
here. Flaws and all, they are so far the best semi-unbiased source
of rv buying advice.
Vince Wirth
>RVCG's utter lack of participation says something about them, and
>unfortunately it's not good.
GB.
I suspect that if the RVCG started posting people would then say that
they are biased one way or another. Could you imagine what would
happen if they took a position that agreed with Will on one thing and
David on another? They would then be accused of being"Biased".
Also why give out "Free" information?
So- their position on not posting might not be good but it's smart.
Vince Wirth
http://home.earthlink.net/~vincewirth
Ralph Lindberg & Ellen Winnie
<sle...@ohnayamspay.ridgenet.net> wrote:
> I am going overseas for a couple weeks on Monday, but when I get back
> I am going to see if there aren't other ways to obtain a copy of the
> finances. The IRS maybe, or the State of Washington. Seems I've heard
> somewhere that non-profits have to disclose finances.
If the RVCG is incorporated as a non-profit, the IRS requires certain
filings, and some of those filings are public. Just which ones I don't
recall right now.
The State of Washington also requires certain things to be filed. You
might be able to get info from them, the Washington AG website is
http://www.wa.gov:80/ago/
Greg
of months ago. They claim to be a consumer group, but two things raised
a red flag with me: (1) They are a .com instead of a .org, and (2) when
they first came online they had some sort of referral system set up with
certain manufacturers. This was supposed to be a benefit to the
consumer. I saw it as a conflict of interest.
I just looked at the web site again. It appears they may have dropped
the referral system, as I did not see any mention of it. Think I'll
stick with the RVCG for now.
W F Sill wrote:
>
> Not long ago, "John Lindsey" <john...@home.com> wrote:
>
> > . . . . . There is a new
> >group in town. http://www.rvgroupwise.com/Default.htm
> >
> >We do not know how "good" they are, how "independent" they are or how useful
> >they are. But it seems that we have an alternate or supplement to JD,
> >Connie and all the folks at the RV Consumer Group. Competition? Hope so.
> >Like chicken soup - can't hurt!
> >John
>
> Interesting. Thanx for posting that. I have emailed for more
> information because the "who we are" web page provides NO information
> on who they are, who pays the bills, or even where they are.
>
> Let's see what comes of it.
>
Scott Leahy
said:
>It's too bad this NG isn't a little more oriented towards positive
>information for those choosing rving instead of a lot of nit picking,
>personal insults, bigoted remarks, and off the wall political statements.
>It doesn't surprise me that RVCG doesn't participate.
Nor me. There is a degree of honesty in all this turmoil that they are
wholly incapable of facing.
>I choose to use the RVCG because they are the only non-industry supported
>group offering information on motorhome safety and quality.
Saying you support something because it is the only alternative is a
weird praise. Your argument is the chief form of validation RVCG
garners here.
Personally, I am sick of it. They owe us ( we are both members ) an
accounting of their finances. They owe us the courtesy not to lie to
us. Since they are the only non-biased source of RV information, maybe
it does earn them the right to lie, but I sure as hell won't buy it.
I think they are very skilled in their invitation, and adept at
soothing ignorant buyers. But get this: JD Gallant could change a lot
of things going on in the RV market. He never will. All he cares about
is book sales. He is fishy, weird, and unreliable. If you find worth
in him, by all means hop aboard. But I don't. In fact, I am going to
take a dump on that lying bastard; not because he harmed any RV
manufacturer' s sales or otherwise pissed the RVIA off. No, I am going
to flipping kick him in the gut because he, his wife, his weird bunch
of clones, are lying assholes. They thrive on uninformed devotees
rolling over and pissing on themselves in their sight, and I HATE
that.
They are going to live up to their promises or they are GOING TO GET
IT. No more free rides here. No more uncontested recommendations, no
more stupid spams. Yes, I am quite angry about being left twisting in
the wind by the Gallants. I urge them to publish their financial
statement, urge them to abandon this bookseller ethic and reach out to
the RV community at large, urge them to reach out their hands to
newbies without demanding $100 for a book.
>someone else wants to offer a competing service I'm sure I'd be interested
>in it too.) When I started researching the enormous purchase of a MH, I
>chose to take advantage of the information offered by RVCG and I am glad I
>did. Sure they are opinionated, but I take most things I read with the
>requisite grain of salt and in one case I fully researched a rig that they
>did not rate and found out why, It had a payload capacity of 400 pounds.
>My feeling is that they are a small outfit, likely dominated by one strong
>personality, and likely underfunded, but I believe their heart is in the
>right place and that they are offering a valuable service to those of us
>adrift in an unregulated industry.
Their heart is in one place: the sale of books. Nothing else matters.
It is not a consumer organization, it is a bookseller's dreamworld.
Follow the money.
>I have found a lot of information that is helpful on this NG and for that I
>am grateful. I also understand that our glorious tradition of free speech
>thrives on the internet like nowhere else. Therefore I am not urging you to
>curb your curmudgeonly instincts and gag yourselves. I also have the
>freedom to pick what I wish to read, and I exercise that right with great
>abandon. I will, however continue to recommend the RVCG because without
>them I would likely have made some very costly (not to mention embarrassing)
>mistakes in my purchase. For that too, I am grateful.
>
FWIW, RVCG has never approached the level of competence and experience
available right here. Gallant is just not that good. I urge anyone
thinking about jumping on the RVCG wagon to give it the same six
months I gave it. Then come back and tell me what you learned from him
that was unavailable here.
GBinNC
I guess I wasn't thinking about them giving out free information or
recommending one RV over another. I can certainly see the problems
that would emanate from doing that here, and of course there's no
reason to give away their show anyway. I sure wouldn't.
But It seems to me that they might occasionally know a factual answer
to a question -- one that doesn't require or involve an opinion -- and
could use that as a way of participating in the newsgroups and being
helpful where possible. More as public relations than anything else...
As I said earlier, I can't imagine that I will ever need their
services, so I don't really care one way or the other. I was just
voicing an opinion as to what it looks like from a purely objective
and unbiased viewpoint.
GB in NC
W F Sill
>Saying you support something because it is the only alternative is a
>weird praise.
I suggest diferentiating between "praise" and acknowledgment that they
provide the only more-or-less untainted buying advice. While there
are several volunteer advisers here who don't charge anything for
their advice, it is impossible for the newbie to know who is objective
and who is emotionally praising (or cussing) how own purchase.
>I think they are very skilled in their invitation, and adept at
>soothing ignorant buyers. But get this: JD Gallant could change a lot
>of things going on in the RV market. He never will. All he cares about
>is book sales. He is fishy, weird, and unreliable. <<snip>>
>They are going to live up to their promises or they are GOING TO GET
>IT. No more free rides here. No more uncontested recommendations, no
>more stupid spams. Yes, I am quite angry about being left twisting in
>the wind by the Gallants. I urge them to publish their financial
>statement, urge them to abandon this bookseller ethic and reach out to
>the RV community at large, urge them to reach out their hands to
>newbies without demanding $100 for a book.
I get the impression you are not happy! Hehehe.
But I also get the impression that you are overlooking a key fact:
Non-profit does not mean no-cost, and I for one have no problem with
JD trying to finance his operation by charging $100 for his package of
books. How else would you recommend he recover the cost of his work?
Even if the guy is as big a jackass as Canoli, the product is and has
been well worth the money for hundreds of people.
I applaud your determination to get to the bottom of the financial
picture, but urge you not to overlook reality. Compared to the
mealy-mouthed "reviewers" in rv publications, rvcg is well worth the
new buyer's money. IMO.
Marge & Stan Barnett
John Lindsey wrote:
> Marge & Stan Barnett wrote in a long message praising the RV Consumer
> Group.....
>
> "But, they are the only independent organization offering RV quality and
> pricing data."
>
> Um...Marge, Stan and everybody else, not so any longer. There is a new
JOE NEAR
You may be right on a statistical basis, but I am very satisfied with
our most recent purchase and was still willing to enter information into
the survey. Though the "n" is admittedly very small here I am not
particularly public spirited. I looked at a couple of the ratings for
RVs I am familiar with and it didn't look like the respondents were
particularly pissed off about the quality of their RVs.
Because of the nature of the RV beast, even a couple of weeks is too
short a time to really get a handle on some potential problems. The idea
of a consumer survey ala Consumer Report seems like a good one to me.
Your point about getting more information from individuals about a
particular problem is a good one. Were I looking for an RV right now I
would try getting information from all available sources though and this
kind of survey seems like it could serve as a starting point to identify
problems with a particular RV.
Joe Near
Lou Schneider
wrote:
>Um...Marge, Stan and everybody else, not so any longer. There is a new
>group in town. http://www.rvgroupwise.com/Default.htm
>
>We do not know how "good" they are, how "independent" they are or how useful
>they are. But it seems that we have an alternate or supplement to JD,
>Connie and all the folks at the RV Consumer Group. Competition? Hope so.
>Like chicken soup - can't hurt!
RV Groupwise was passing out information in Quartzsite this past
winter. In my opinion they have a fatal flaw for a so-called
"consumer" organization - after they tell you what RV to buy, they
collect a commission from the selling dealer!
Of course, they'd never slant their opinion to favor those
manufacturers giving them kickbacks over the ones that don't, right?
Lou Schneider
email: remove ZZ
Guy reading here
$100 is trivial compared to the amount of information you receive on very
expensive products.
Sure JD could be a better voice for the RV community. But then, we all
could. At least he has organized a group which has lasted years and provides
the largest amount of unbiased material available. That makes a positive
difference.
If someone wants to take that information and do more with it by helping the
other various RV organizations produce better vehicles -- great. The path
has been started; go for it. We, who are too busy with our lives/lazy, all
await.
In the meantime, those who wish to learn the sometimes unpleasant news that
is pretty much dead-on, give the RVCG a serious look.
Thanks to all, including JD, who have made our RV life so wonderful.
Dick and Nel Barber
"W F Sill" <wi...@epix.net> wrote in
news:pu8ogs4pcno7tb9ct...@4ax.com...
> Not long ago, Scott Leahy <sle...@ohnayamspay.ridgenet.net>
Marge & Stan Barnett
dtblank3&&@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> Scott Leahy wrote:
>
> > It's just slipshod. They don't deserve a dime of your money. They have
> > nothing to offer that a commercial website couldn't put together in
> > two or three days of work. They are doing nothing to organize RV
> > owners into anything remotely coherent. There are no revelations
> > forthcoming from them that I have seen.
>
> I've never even seen RVCG so I certainly cannot affirm or
> debate Scott's comments. But everything I've read about it
> on this newsgroup leaves me with the perception that its
> members are proclaiming "It must be good! I paid
> ninety-eight bucks for it."
>
> --
> ==============================================
> Dale
>
> *****To reply, delete && from displayed email
> address.*****
jack
What is the URL of the RV consumer group. I am also in the market for
an RV but know very little. I recently stumbled upon a 1997 36'
Dolphin that my neighbor is selling for 63K. It comes with a 535DP
Ford Engine fully loaded and impeccable condition. I am very
interested in this vehicle but don't know if this is a good value.
What is the reputation of Dophin and where can I find more info on
prices for these vehicles. Any help is appreciated.
Jack
On 27 Apr 2000 20:59:15 EDT, Marge & Stan Barnett
<sjmk...@qwestinternet.net> wrote:
>I'm always a little surprised to read a negative report on the RV
>Consumer Group because our own experience was universally positive. We
>went to an RV show two years ago because we got free tickets. We had
>owned a pop-up in the 70's and enjoyed camping, but demanding careers
>and growing kids kept us away from the trailer and we sold it. I don't
>think I had given a moment's thought to RVing since. The advances made
>since the 70's knocked us out. One fiver had a fireplace! Roughing it
>was no longer part of the equation. Modern RV's were clearly comfortable
>and luxurious. We were hooked again. However, we had no idea of what to
>buy. I bought a "Trailer Life" and "Motorhome" to see what was on the
>market. I got an Affinity "Buyer's Guide" to get some idea of cost. I
>did some online research at manufacturer's web sites to see what the
>manufacturer's said about their own products. Then I began to cast
>around for the RV "Consumer's Reports" to get some unbiased idea of
>product quality. The bottom line was that there was only one independent
>organization doing RV quality assessments. That is the RV Consumer
>Group. I purchased the book package and read it thoroughly. I was struck
>in a negative way by the fact that the RVCG only used a small sample of
>on-site manufacturer's inspections and used vehicle examinations. For
>the most part they used computer analysis and sampling for their
>judgements and that left, in my mind, lots of room for mistakes. So, I
>went out and looked on my own. Fortunately, the Denver area has numerous
>RV dealers offering a wide variety of brands/models. I compared the RVCG
>opinions with my own, and generally - emphasize generally - found that
>their quality judgments matched mine. Over time, remember we worked at
>this just about every Saturday for two years, we moved from looking at
>fivers to gas motorhomes to diesel pushers - meanwhile keeping up our
>reading both on the web and buying just about every book on RV'ing that
>we could find. We found the RVCG web site comments very useful. We
>rented a motorhome and went out for two weeks in it. We had some
>full-timing friends who submitted to numerous interrogations. Gradually
>we decided on three brands that we could both afford (an important
>factor for us) and that had a reasonable quality level. We also
>determined that there were lots of poor quality vehicles on the market.
>Here are some things to look for in what I consider a bad RV
>investment: There are no backsplashes around the sinks, the
>manufacturer uses putty or gimp to fill the gaps between the sink and
>wall. The shower stall does not go all the way to the roof, allowing
>water to get between the stall and the wall. There are no grommets
>between the hoses/wires and the wood, allowing the wires/hoses to rub
>against the wood. Most of the interior partitions are made of inferior
>quality pressed board. The cabinetry is inferior with thin "picture
>frame" doors, bad drawer fits and poor drawer glides. Gaps in the
>interior walls are covered by plastic trim tape instead of heavier trim
>pieces. Wood trim is poorly finished with out-of-site wood not sanded.
>This is only a sample of my "don't buy" list. Not coincidentally, this
>list pretty well matches one provided by RVCG. RVCG's web site also gave
>us information on some brands that have poor customer service records.
>We avoided those brands. When we made the final purchase decision, I had
>RVCG's price data in hand. Without that data, I would have had to try to
>"back-in" to the purchase price from used vehicle data. I also knew to
>ask my salesman for his full retail price list and to custom tailor my
>vehicle knowing everything the manufacturer had to offer - and the
>appropriate discount to expect. As a result, we got a very good vehicle
>at an affordable price. I don't think the RVCG is perfect. I think their
>staff is too small and that hurts their service. I suspect they have
>some predjudices against certain brands. But, they are the only
>independent organization offering RV quality and pricing data. They also
>have a much needed program to increase RV safety. I strongly recommend
>them to anybody not already an expert on RV matters. Stan.
>
>
>
W F Sill
>What is the URL of the RV consumer group.
If you have taken the trouble to read a day's posts before asking,
you'd know it's www.rv.org.
Will KD3XR ---- the Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
In order to become the master, the politician
poses as the servant. Charles de Gaulle
Guy reading here
"jack" <jl...@hotmail.com> wrote in
message
news:3917bae6....@news.ricoch
et.net...
> Stan:
>
> What is the URL of the RV
> >.....much cut here
Grey_w...@hotmail.com
On 2000-05-09 wi...@epix.net said:
>Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel,alt.rv
>Not long ago, jl...@hotmail.com (jack) wrote:
>>What is the URL of the RV consumer group.
>If you have taken the trouble to read a day's posts before asking,
>you'd know it's www.rv.org.
Little tenderizer for that foot?
Can you open your mind without it falling out?
Marge & Stan
jack wrote:
> Stan:
>
> What is the URL of the RV consumer group.
that would be www.rv.org - also stop at the nearest Camping World, buy
every
book they have and read them carefully. Stan
>