Alpine Coach Brakes
Steve Helland
learned Alpine uses hydraulic brakes, not air. Is this a good thing? Does
anyone have insight into how serious or not this feature is? Thanks.
Barrie Brozenske
kaddy...@earthlink.net says...
> I am looking at a 2000 Alpine coach to buy. I was dumbfounded when I
> learned Alpine uses hydraulic brakes, not air. Is this a good thing? Does
> anyone have insight into how serious or not this feature is? Thanks.
My 33' Seabreeze on the 18,000 pound GVW Ford F-53 chassis uses power
assisted hydraulic brakes and they work fine.
I think in general, most gas coaches use hydraulic brakes while
most heavier Diesel coaches have air brakes.
--
HTH,
Barrie
Steve Helland
pusher. I have never heard of using hydraulic brakes on that big a rig.
"Barrie Brozenske" <buzz...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a5227bb4...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
CruzMastr
very well rated coach so it's probably safe to assume the brakes are at
least adequate. I have test driven an Alpine (30-40 miles) and though I
didn't have any emergency stops, I did make several deliberately hard stops
on pavement and gravel didn't find any fault with the braking. Power
assisted hydraulic brakes have one advantage over air brakes, they don't
exhibit the apx 1 second lag between pedal operation and brake actuation.
While drivers get used to and adapt to the air brake lag, it is a bit
disconcerting the first few times.
CruzMastr
"Steve Helland" <kaddy...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:FEYFb.2879$lo3...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Dave Thompson
Air Brakes are cheaper to install. Hydraulically boosted brakes require a
high pressure pump and work just fine. GM used (may still use)
hydraulically boosted brakes on their Medium Duty Trucks. The advantage is
the same pump can be used for brakes and steering.
Think about it. When was the last time you saw a 747 with air brakes?
--
Dave Thompson
Steve Helland
Steve
"Dave Thompson" <daveth...@askforit.net> wrote in message
news:zL6Gb.55271$pY.15157@fed1read04...
Dick Merryman
news:zL6Gb.55271$pY.15157@fed1read04...
> Think about it. When was the last time you saw a 747 with air brakes?
By the same token, when have you ever seen a freight train with hydraulic
brakes?
Barrie Brozenske
says...
Jesting aside, there is a distinct advantage to air brakes when trailers
(or railroad cars) must be hooked up to work with the brake system.....no
fluid leaks when connecting and disconnecting. <g>
--
Regards,
Barrie B
Dave Thompson
"Dick Merryman" <di...@wormhole.com> wrote in message
news:-redndEInOg...@comcast.com...
I was waiting for that one.
The reason trains have air brakes is the same reason semi-trucks have air
brakes. It is the most convenient system for coupling and uncoupling rail
cars and road trailers. It has nothing to do with stopping ability.
--
Dave Thompson
Dick Merryman
>
> The reason trains have air brakes is the same reason semi-trucks have air
> brakes. It is the most convenient system for coupling and uncoupling rail
> cars and road trailers. It has nothing to do with stopping ability.
>
In addition to the ease with which air brakes can be hooked and unhooked
to/from trailers, several features make air brakes superior to hydraulic
brakes. The first is that small leaks can be tolerated in an air brake
system. The same leaks would render a hydraulic system inoperative. The
second is that the spring-operated parking brake system also provides a
fail-safe emergency system. Third, air brakes are optimal for more severe
applications, such as mountainous terrain, where hydraulic brakes can be
overtaxed and fail due to heat buildup causing vapor lock in the hydraulic
medium.
The down-side of air brakes is that they do not provide operator feedback,
are more complex than hydraulics, require larger, heavier components that
take more space, have a higher overall cost and require more maintenance.
Cost aside, there is no sound more pleasing to me than the pssssssst of the
moisture ejector or the shhhhhhhht of the parking brake.
-Dick-
Larrie Malobenski
>moisture ejector or the shhhhhhhht of the parking brake.
> -Dick-
Until that moisture ejector freezes open.
Wade
"Steve Helland" <kaddy...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:E8_Fb.2918$lo3...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> pusher. I have never heard of using hydraulic brakes on that big a rig.
>
>
You have good reasons to be concerned, a 33,000 lb coach would require so
much pedal pressure that you will have great difficulty stopping in
mountainous terrain.
Wade
Wade
>
> >
>
> Air Brakes are cheaper to install. Hydraulically boosted brakes require a
> high pressure pump and work just fine. GM used (may still use)
> hydraulically boosted brakes on their Medium Duty Trucks. The advantage
is
> the same pump can be used for brakes and steering.
>
> Think about it. When was the last time you saw a 747 with air brakes?
>
> --
> Dave Thompson
>
>
involved, besides if they where cheaper everybody would have them, and BTW
747's use reverse trust for braking the service brakes are only used to hold
the craft stationary.
Wade
Wade
"CruzMastr" <cruz...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bsa7ub$kkm$1...@news.netins.net...
> As long as the brakes are properly engineered there is no problem. WRV is
a
> very well rated coach so it's probably safe to assume the brakes are at
> least adequate. I have test driven an Alpine (30-40 miles) and though I
> didn't have any emergency stops, I did make several deliberately hard
stops
> on pavement and gravel didn't find any fault with the braking. Power
> assisted hydraulic brakes have one advantage over air brakes, they don't
> exhibit the apx 1 second lag between pedal operation and brake actuation.
> While drivers get used to and adapt to the air brake lag, it is a bit
> disconcerting the first few times.
>
> CruzMastr
>
The lag time on air brakes is 4/10 of a second and that would be full brake
application requiring very little effort in pressure, the same scenario with
hydraulic brakes with full application requires more pedal travel and effort
and your lag time to full braking effort is almost a full second.
Wade
Dave Thompson
"Wade" <Wade@Ilk_R_us.com> wrote in message
news:FjlIb.873017$6C4.298167@pd7tw1no...
Please don't tell Boeing that. The service brakes are required to stop the
aircraft within 8,000 feet without using reverse thrusters.
--
Dave Thompson
Dave Thompson
"Wade" <Wade@Ilk_R_us.com> wrote in message
It sounds as if you have never driven a truck with high pressure boost
hydraulic brakes. GMC MDT up to 40,000 lbs GVWR had high pressure hydraulic
assist. They were not vacuum and the hydraulic assist did not use brake
fluid. The same pump drove the brake system, steering system, dump system
(if a dump truck) and PTO. Total pedal travel was about the same as on my
Suburban.
--
Dave Thompson
JRE
worked quite well with no perceptible lag time.
JRE
Dave Thompson wrote:
>
> "Wade" <Wade@Ilk_R_us.com> wrote in message
> news:JjlIb.880314$9l5.663341@pd7tw2no...
> >
<snip>
Dave Dodson
"Larrie Malobenski" <lmal...@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:bsskp8$121h8$1...@ID-186672.news.uni-berlin.de...
I wouldn't worry too much about such freeze ups, we run rigs with air brakes
year 'round without having any such problems. I have made several trips, for
example, between Fairbanks, AK and Whitehorse, YT at temps ranging from -40
to -22 and never had any brake system freezes.
Dave D
--
Hunt hard...Kill quick...Offer No Apologies!>
Dave Dodson
"Wade" <Wade@Ilk_R_us.com> wrote in message
news:FjlIb.873017$6C4.298167@pd7tw1no...
Wade,
I have read about 4 or 5 of your posts and in every one you have been
totally out in left field someplace. Where do you get these very, very
different points-of-view? For example, brakes on every jet aircraft I have
ever flown, and I amassed over 11,000 hours in several types, not only use
the brakes in conjunction with thrust reversers but are required to stop the
aircraft within a specified distance without reversers. I drive
professionally and have never noted a significant lag time in air braking
systems and some rigs have high pressure hydraulic systems that enable
stopping a rig with a total vehicle weight in excess of 80,000 pounds with
no significant actuation delay nor inordinately long stopping distance. The
engineers design the braking systems to work with the application, safely or
the manufacturer would be hit by numerous lawsuits by now, I am certain. A
little common sense please.
Wade
"Dave Dodson" <ddo...@gci.net> wrote in message
news:vv5jg56...@corp.supernews.com...
It can and does happen on wet tanks equipped with spitter valves, and you
don't have to be in Alaska for that to happen.
Wade
Wade
>
>
> Please don't tell Boeing that. The service brakes are required to stop
the
> aircraft within 8,000 feet without using reverse thrusters.
>
> --
> Dave Thompson
>
>
brakes only to stop and provided that nose wheel does not collapse, would it
be able to pass the tug test?
Wade
Wade
>
> > The lag time on air brakes is 4/10 of a second and that would be full
> brake
> > application requiring very little effort in pressure, the same scenario
> with
> > hydraulic brakes with full application requires more pedal travel and
> effort
> > and your lag time to full braking effort is almost a full second.
> > Wade
> >
>
> It sounds as if you have never driven a truck with high pressure boost
> hydraulic brakes. GMC MDT up to 40,000 lbs GVWR had high pressure
hydraulic
> assist. They were not vacuum and the hydraulic assist did not use brake
> fluid. The same pump drove the brake system, steering system, dump system
> (if a dump truck) and PTO. Total pedal travel was about the same as on my
> Suburban.
>
> --
> Dave Thompson
>
I have never driven trucks period, my experience is entirely on large
coaches, and I have owned and driven coaches with hydraulic, air over
hydraulic and full air brakes, and I must say that hydraulic with vacuum
assist is the worst for wear on brake shoes and stopping distance, the next
best is air over hydraulic it gives tremendous amount more of application
pressure the downside wear and cracking of rotors and in some cases the
rotors can explode from the friction caused by pressure. The best is full
air as it offers 3 independent brake system, no boiling brake fluid and
stopping distances I would estimate about halve the distance of hydraulic
brakes. As far as your MDT goes I doubt that any MH have them and with GM
out of the chassis business unlikely to.
Wade
Wade
>
>
> Wade,
> I have read about 4 or 5 of your posts and in every one you have been
> totally out in left field someplace. Where do you get these very, very
> different points-of-view? For example, brakes on every jet aircraft I have
> ever flown, and I amassed over 11,000 hours in several types, not only use
> the brakes in conjunction with thrust reversers but are required to stop
the
> aircraft within a specified distance without reversers. I drive
> professionally and have never noted a significant lag time in air braking
> systems and some rigs have high pressure hydraulic systems that enable
> stopping a rig with a total vehicle weight in excess of 80,000 pounds with
> no significant actuation delay nor inordinately long stopping distance.
The
> engineers design the braking systems to work with the application, safely
or
> the manufacturer would be hit by numerous lawsuits by now, I am certain. A
> little common sense please.
>
> Dave D
>
If you know this little about your air brakes perhaps it is high time for
you to re-qualify for your class one license with air endorsement and study
about reaction, lag and braking distance of your brake system.
Wade
Wade
"JRE" <not...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3FF2B0B4...@nowhere.com...
> Our 1976 Southwind had power assisted hydraulic brakes. They
> worked quite well with no perceptible lag time.
>
> JRE
>
How would you notice lag time that consist of fractions of seconds, it is
never the les there and for each second at 60 Mph you are traveling 88 feet.
Wade
Dave Thompson
"Wade" <Wade@Ilk_R_us.com> wrote in message
Come on, Wade. You are starting to paint yourself into a corner. There are
many airports with sufficient runway length where aircraft do not use thrust
reversing to slow/stop. Changing brake pads and rotors is MUCH cheaper than
engine overhauls.
Airports I have personally landed on that aircraft rarely use thrust
reversers due to long runway length.
Anchorage: Runway 14/32
Chicago: Runway 14R
Las Vegas: Runways 25L
Denver: Runway 08
When an aircraft is landing on a 10,000+ runway and turn-off is at the far
end, roll out using only brakes is very common and preferred.
--
Dave Thompson
Dave Thompson
You admit you've never driven a vehicle with high pressure hydraulic over
hydraulic brakes, yet you continue to rail against them. Please trust the
engineers who build brake systems to know such systems work great and have
less maintenance issues than air. Another big plus for hydraulic/hydraulic
brakes is ABS.
Do coaches with full air brakes offer ABS?
If you like the sound of air brakes, go for it. Just know that full air
brakes are not the only way to safely stop large weights.
--
Dave Thompson
Wade
>
> > >
> > >
> > Perhaps so I don't know that, however lets say if that 747 where to use
> the
> > brakes only to stop and provided that nose wheel does not collapse,
would
> it
> > be able to pass the tug test?
> > Wade
> >
>
> Come on, Wade. You are starting to paint yourself into a corner. There
are
> many airports with sufficient runway length where aircraft do not use
thrust
> reversing to slow/stop. Changing brake pads and rotors is MUCH cheaper
than
> engine overhauls.
>
> Airports I have personally landed on that aircraft rarely use thrust
> reversers due to long runway length.
>
> Anchorage: Runway 14/32
> Chicago: Runway 14R
> Las Vegas: Runways 25L
> Denver: Runway 08
>
> When an aircraft is landing on a 10,000+ runway and turn-off is at the far
> end, roll out using only brakes is very common and preferred.
>
> --
> Dave Thompson
>
>
that burns his brakes on landing will soon be unemployed, in the case of
Anchorage he would be a passenger on the return flight, and personally I
have yet to experience any landing where only the wheel brakes are used, I
guess not everybody can be that fortunate.
Wade
Wade
> "Wade" <Wade@Ilk_R_us.com> wrote in message
> > >
> >
to 40,000 lbs of GVWR, I decided to visit the MDT website and what I have
found is that only the wimpy trucks use the hydraulic brakes the others like
the 5500 with GVWR of 19,500 lbs has air over hydraulic and anything from
7500 and up starting with GVWR of 25,900 lbs has the s cam type airbrakes,
all that high pressure brake is just a simple power boost because not enough
pressure could be applied to the shoes, and the brakes are Bosch Hydro Max
it is not a GM product as you have claimed. And to your answer yes I have
driven vehicles with brakes like that, and yes MH chassis with full air
brakes do have ABS.
Wade
http://www.gmc.com/gmcjsp/mediumduty/index.jsp?source=bnav&brand=home&pageName=index
Frank Tabor
<daveth...@askforit.net> wrote:
>Do coaches with full air brakes offer ABS?
Tractor Trailers do now. Have for the last five years or so.
--
Frank Tabor
Dave Thompson
"Wade" <Wade@Ilk_R_us.com> wrote in message
Now you are being hard headed and obtuse. I CLEARLY said "in the past..."
and said I did not know if they offered them today. You continue to
describe air over hydraulic, which was NOT what I wrote about.
We will agree that full air is the only way to go. I will be off to Everett
tomorrow to insist that Boeing convert all new 777's to full air.
End of redundant thread.
--
Dave Thompson
Dave Thompson
"Wade" <Wade@Ilk_R_us.com> wrote in message
Straw man construction is not classy. I never mentioned 747's on Runway
14/32 at Anchorage. It is not stressed for 747 landings. 747 landings in
Anchorage always use 6R which is not long enough for roll out landings.
End of thread.
--
Dave Thompson
DSteiner51
End of thread.
--
Dave Thompson >>
The FAA approved runway length required charts are based on brakes only no
thrust reverser used. I use both the TRs and brakes in moderation depending on
runway length and/or where I want to exit the runway.
I think I see advantages to both hydraulic and air. On a straight truck
hydraulic would require less maintenance.. just add brake fluid, while on a
semi truck where the lines need to be disconnected air would be better but more
maintenance draining moisture from airtanks etc. Right??? On my gooseneck
trailer I use electro/hydraulic brakes.
DSteiner
Richard Curtis
'98 American Dream has um!
"Dapper Dave" <expur...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:m7m8vv4399ilipbcq...@4ax.com...
> >"Dave Thompson" <daveth...@askforit.net> wrote:
>
> >snip Wade argument
> >Do coaches with full air brakes offer ABS?
> >snip Wade argument
>
> Ours does. Monaco has been using them for a few years.