Tankless water heaters
Dan Listermann
with a gas unit to free up some amperage. Also I am looking at a tankless
to free up space. I found this :
http://www.excelamerica.com/calentadores_eng.htm and it is also ventless!
The biggest use would be a shower so I am concerned about the flow rate of
only 1.6 gallons a minute. Any experiences out there with this sort of
thing?
Dave D
"Dan Listermann" <d...@listermann.com> wrote in message
news:168dc$4993026a$4a53bf9f$23...@FUSE.NET...
Hell, do a bit of experimenting. Run a gallon jug full using your normal
shower setting. That should give you some idea about the volume.
DaveD
Dan Listermann
"Dave D" <dtdo...@acsalaska.net> wrote in message
news:4993d5c8$1...@news.acsalaska.net...
Good idea, but I already went with the 4+ gallon a minute power vent unit.
No use being pissed for years over a couple of hundred dollars.
Dave D
> Good idea, but I already went with the 4+ gallon a minute power vent unit.
> No use being pissed for years over a couple of hundred dollars.
Good on you. Let us know how it works for u. I am toying with replacing the
tank type heater in my house but it will have to be electric. So far I have
looked at several but all acknowledge that their electric ones have trouble
keeping up with demand at time and take a little time to get hot water at
first demand. So I will probably have to wait....
DaveD
>
Peter Pan
>
> DaveD
>>
just out of curiosity, are you in alaska or is that just part of your ip's
name? .. They actually make/sell woodburning hot water heaters, for places
with lots of wood, and instead of a storage tank, have a rising
/recirculating tank (more like a boiler tank, ie hot water rises colder
comes in) used that to heat the place, heat the hot tub, and elcheapos to
kick the temp up at dispensing...
>
Dave D
"Peter Pan" <pponvis...@MarcAlanNOSPAM.Info> wrote in message
news:Y8udnUhrG9bXjQvU...@earthlink.com...
Yes, I am in Alaska. North Pole to be precise. I am familiar with the wood
fired hot water heater system as you describe. What I am looking for is
on-demand hot water system. They make an electric fired system but it is not
as efficient as the propane or LP gas. Propane supply for such a system
would have to be inside the house (Omigod, I hope that propane freak doesn't
read this or we will be inundated with horror stories about houses
exploding) because of the extreme temps. Propane doesn't like to gasify and
maintain system pressure in the very cold. Ah, well. I'll make do with the
upright tank type for now...
DaveD
>>
>
Will
wrote:
> . . . . What I am looking for is
>on-demand hot water system. They make an electric fired system but it is not
>as efficient as the propane or LP gas. Propane supply for such a system
>would have to be inside the house (Omigod, I hope that propane freak doesn't
>read this or we will be inundated with horror stories about houses
>exploding) because of the extreme temps. Propane doesn't like to gasify and
>maintain system pressure in the very cold.
I'm confused about your comment that "an electric fired system . . .
is not as efficient as the propane or LP gas". Not sure what you
mean, but in terms of BTU input, electric "fuel" delivers very nearly
100% of available heat (3415 btu/kw) to the water, where gas fired
equipment always loses 20% or more of the fuel's value to the flue,
etc. In fact we are just now changing out an aging propane water
heater in favor of electric because the price of propane ($2.64
locally) has 'way out-paced the cost of electric power (5.5
cents/kwh).
Perhaps what you're alluding to is that practical electric units
usually cannot maintain as high a flow rate as the gas-fired
counterparts.
Will Sill
"Votes can be bought,
Respect can only be earned."
Peter Pan
we looked at the delta/temp change needed, most (electric or gas) only do
about 40-50 degree change, so heating warm water (instead of cold) made more
sense, using it for other stuff (mostly free heat, hot tub, drip to keep
sewer line unfrozen etc) was a pleasant by product, cheap lots of wood
(cuttoffs from logging, yukon territory), just the cost of gas for the chain
saw, and in case of power failure, better to have 80-90 degree water instead
of 33....
Sort of a pain, but was in a rural area and electric power was very
unreliable, so looked at ways of independence/self sufficiency.... oh well,
probably not feasible for a retrofit, but worked pretty well for new
construction... Have you considered buildin a new house? :)
Steve Calvin
>> wood fired hot water heater system as you describe. What I am looking
>> for is on-demand hot water system. They make an electric fired system
>> but it is not as efficient as the propane or LP gas. Propane supply
>> for such a system would have to be inside the house (Omigod, I hope
>> that propane freak doesn't read this or we will be inundated with
>> horror stories about houses exploding) because of the extreme temps.
>> Propane doesn't like to gasify and maintain system pressure in the
>> very cold. Ah, well. I'll make do with the upright tank type for now...
>>
If you're talking about a house and have wood available have you looked
into wood-fired boilers? No, they're no on-demand but provide both heat
and hot water for the house. Just a thought.
Bill
http://www.alternative-heating-info.com/Outdoor_Wood_Furnace.html
Or this?
http://www.nextlevelsolutionz.com/
Steve Calvin
Well, there are a multitude of suppliers who have very different models
and specifications, on the market.
I was just curious if the OP realized that there may be alternatives,
given a source of fuel of course.
--
Steve
Dave D
"Will" <wi...@epix.net> wrote in message
news:8lfdp41061kkro9mj...@4ax.com...
water system. The info I have read stated that electric systems were not as
efficient as gas (LPG, propane, or natural gas). In my area, natural gas is
not available (yet), propane has problems with extreme cold temps as does
LPG or so I understand. Hope this clarifies the issue.
DaveD
>
Dave D
"Steve Calvin" <cal...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:49973b26$0$3212$607e...@cv.net...
Looked but as you say they are not on demand nor are they tankless. That's
what I am trying to get rid of....
DaveD
Dave D
"Bill" <bar...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:sYKll.3980$i9....@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
Outdoor furnaces/boilers fired with wood are the big thing up here now. So
much so that our local tyrants (borough govt) is looking to regulate them in
some fashion (prob a tax or users fee) but their big drawback is efficiency.
They don't do well when the heat input pipe or hose is sitting in frozen
ground. They must be at least 3' or so deep to stay below the frost line.
Makes their installation problematic and expensive. Not to mention the high
price for the unit in the first place.
DaveD
>
Will
wrote:
Will:
>> I'm confused about your comment that "an electric fired system . . .
>> is not as efficient as the propane or LP gas". Not sure what you
>> mean, but in terms of BTU input, electric "fuel" delivers very nearly
>> 100% of available heat (3415 btu/kw) to the water, where gas fired
>> equipment always loses 20% or more of the fuel's value to the flue,
>> etc. In fact we are just now changing out an aging propane water
>> heater in favor of electric because the price of propane ($2.64
>> locally) has 'way out-paced the cost of electric power (5.5
>> cents/kwh).
>>
>> Perhaps what you're alluding to is that practical electric units
>> usually cannot maintain as high a flow rate as the gas-fired
>> counterparts.
D:
>Sorry to confuse you Will. I was talking about a tankless, on demand hot
>water system. The info I have read stated that electric systems were not as
>efficient as gas (LPG, propane, or natural gas). In my area, natural gas is
>not available (yet), propane has problems with extreme cold temps as does
>LPG or so I understand. Hope this clarifies the issue.
Obviously we are not communicating, or you've read some misleading
information. I understood you were talking tankless heaters. Maybe
you'll believe http://www.e-tankless.com/gas-vs-electric.php
"While gas tankless water heaters are certainly more efficient than
their tank cousins, their efficiency usually peaks at 80-85%.
Conversely, most electric tankless water heaters are 98+% efficient.
Even though natural gas is generally a cheaper input fuel than
electricity per BTU of output power, this benefit is generally
outweighed by the higher efficiency of the electric unit, longer
service life, and cheaper installation. On top of that, electric
tankless water heaters cost much less than most tankless gas models.
Moreover, gas prices tend to fluctuate more dramatically then
electricity prices and most economists agree that gas prices are
expected to rise significantly in coming years, whereas in most areas,
electricity prices should be relatively stable or at least rise at a
much slower pace."
Which is more or less what I wrote earlier.
Steve Calvin
I saw one that was able to be installed indoors. As for efficiency, I
believe(I could be wrong) that you can ge them at about 90% if you burn
seasoned hardwood and stay away from green wood, pine, garbage, etc.
I realize that it's not an on demand system but just threw it out there
in case you had a free source of wood. Then you may be able to go with a
very cheap heat and hot water system.
GL in your quest.
--
Steve
JerryD(upstateNY)
If you have the room, you can take an old water heater tank, take the
outside tin and insulation off it, paint it black and use it as a storage
tank for your water heater.
Run the water into the bottom and out the top of the tank.
Sitting in your basement or storage room, the water will warm up to
somewhere near room temperature.
You can raise the water temperature up 20º-30º for free.
--
JerryD(upstateNY)
"Peter Pan" <pponvis...@MarcAlanNOSPAM.Info> wrote in
message news:qIadnX8uwP8FnQrU...@earthlink.com
JerryD(upstateNY)
realized where I was posting this.
I know the water is not heated "for free" but it will enter the water heater
at a higher temperature than if it was coming from the underground water
supply.
--
JerryD(upstateNY)
"JerryD(upstateNY)" wrote in message
Peter Pan
"JerryD(upstateNY)" <jer...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:gn9ijp$cli$1...@news.motzarella.org...
Thanks, live in a forested area, and get lots of free wood from nearby
logging operations, i already have a wood burning warm water system, and
just added the on demand stuff for hot by the sinks where i need/want hot
instead of warm, warms the house/hot tub etc, and if the power goes out, 80
degree water is better than 33-40 degree cold water! was just responding to
the guy from alaska... but it seems like a fair number of folks here....
just to keep it rv related, have a wood burning stove in the rv too (and a
saw, handy if i get snowed in).... :)
Will
<cal...@optonline.net> wrote:
?? wrote:
>> Outdoor furnaces/boilers fired with wood are the big thing up here now.
SC:
>I saw one that was able to be installed indoors. As for efficiency, I
>believe(I could be wrong) that you can ge them at about 90% if you burn
>seasoned hardwood and stay away from green wood, pine, garbage, etc.
Bafflegab does not become useful information, even when printed on
glossy paper in 4 colors and then repeated on the internet. "About
90%" efficiency is hype, not justified by any objective measurements.
I've been burning wood for well over 40 years, BTW, and wonder if the
copy writers claiming those high efficiency numbers have a clue.
Dave D
> information. I understood you were talking tankless heaters. Maybe
> you'll believe http://www.e-tankless.com/gas-vs-electric.php
>
> "While gas tankless water heaters are certainly more efficient than
> their tank cousins, their efficiency usually peaks at 80-85%.
> Conversely, most electric tankless water heaters are 98+% efficient.
> Even though natural gas is generally a cheaper input fuel than
> electricity per BTU of output power, this benefit is generally
> outweighed by the higher efficiency of the electric unit, longer
> service life, and cheaper installation. On top of that, electric
> tankless water heaters cost much less than most tankless gas models.
> Moreover, gas prices tend to fluctuate more dramatically then
> electricity prices and most economists agree that gas prices are
> expected to rise significantly in coming years, whereas in most areas,
> electricity prices should be relatively stable or at least rise at a
> much slower pace."
>
> Which is more or less what I wrote earlier.
>
> Will Sill
> "Votes can be bought,
> Respect can only be earned."
link you provided. I had read several places where they stated that the gas
fired were quicker and more efficient but I will keep an open mind because
new technology comes along quite rapidly and there is a lot of
misinformation put out for various reasons. Thanks again for your help.
DaveD
>
>
>
Ken Harrison
<snip>
> Outdoor furnaces/boilers fired with wood are the big thing up here now. So
> much so that our local tyrants (borough govt) is looking to regulate them in
> some fashion (prob a tax or users fee) but their big drawback is efficiency.
> They don't do well when the heat input pipe or hose is sitting in frozen
> ground. They must be at least 3' or so deep to stay below the frost line.
> Makes their installation problematic and expensive. Not to mention the high
> price for the unit in the first place.
>
"tyrants" or "tax" or such and much to do with air quality issues. Wood
burning devices such as water heaters and fireplaces, while sometimes
justified, are often a major contributor to particulate matter in the
air, harmful to many living beings. If you live in a rural area, that
may be the only solution. If you live in an urban area, they may be
contributing to an already serious problem and cleaner alternatives may
exist. That is an issue facing many governmental agencies. (Since I
don't know where you live, I have no information about the specifics of
your local governmental agencies).
I'd be interested to know if you have explored alternatives, such as
propane/butane, or even solar. I'd surely like to get free of my
slavish devotion to dirtier technologies.
kh
Dan Listermann
> Peter Pan,
> If you have the room, you can take an old water heater tank, take the
> outside tin and insulation off it, paint it black and use it as a storage
> tank for your water heater.
> Run the water into the bottom and out the top of the tank.
> Sitting in your basement or storage room, the water will warm up to
> somewhere near room temperature.
> You can raise the water temperature up 20º-30º for free.
An interesting idea, but space is an issue in the cabin. Also I am trying
to optimize the winterizing / dewinterizing cycle. This would complicate it
a bit, but there are always by-passes that could be worked out. I still
have the old heater and will think about how to do this. Thanks!
Dan
Dave D
"Ken Harrison" <sptr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:yKednYoMT5aJgwTU...@earthlink.com...
with control, tyrants and taxes. The ?problem? of particulates in the air is
a problem only in the minds of those who are looking to change the interior
of Alaska into a "lower 48" situation. Propane is problematic at cold temps,
butane is unusable at cold temps and solar simply is not efficient to the
extent it would provide enough power to heat a house during our winters.
Perhaps if you had a 10 acre field and an inexhaustable supply of money
(unlike the new government I can't just print the amount I want to) solar
might be an option. Lastly, many folks and I mean a lot of them here have no
other source of heat but wood. Had you read the entire thread before piling
in with your eco-babble, you would have known where I live and had an idea
what the conditions might be like. You go right ahead and free yourself from
the "dirtier technologies" and you can pat yourself on the back while saying
what a good fellow you are. Just leave me the hell alone!!!!!!
DaveD
Will
wrote:
>Control over wood burning devices here in the interior has everything to do
>with control, tyrants and taxes. The ?problem? of particulates in the air is
>a problem only in the minds of those who are looking to change the interior
>of Alaska into a "lower 48" situation. Propane is problematic at cold temps,
>butane is unusable at cold temps and solar simply is not efficient to the
>extent it would provide enough power to heat a house during our winters.
>Perhaps if you had a 10 acre field and an inexhaustable supply of money
>(unlike the new government I can't just print the amount I want to) solar
>might be an option. Lastly, many folks and I mean a lot of them here have no
>other source of heat but wood. Had you read the entire thread before piling
>in with your eco-babble, you would have known where I live and had an idea
>what the conditions might be like. You go right ahead and free yourself from
>the "dirtier technologies" and you can pat yourself on the back while saying
>what a good fellow you are. Just leave me the hell alone!!!!!!
HOORAY FOR COMMON SENSE.
Obviously thousands of wood fires in a concentrated area COULD result
in a "pollution" problem, but in sparsely settled areas it is a
non-issue. Eco-morons Just Don't Get It. We have been burning wood
for many many years and over the years have watched bureaucratic
nitwits hyperventiulating over the "problem" and even peddling
impractical gadgets to sanitize smoke. In fact wood smoke disperses
quickly and causes virtually no detectable harm, unlike the weed, meth
and crack the lefty loons are smoking.
Dave D
an extremly sore spot. We have a highly contentious relationship with the
EPA, DEA (state EPA not the feds), and our borough tyrants. The EPA, after a
period of serious confrontations, moved its Fairbanks office to Anchorage.
They claimed it was for cost reduction concerns but most locals think
otherwise. It goes back several years to their oxy-fuel (MTBE) which they
were ordered (by our governor at the time) to get that s**t out of the
gasoline and never use it again. That didn't sit well. Last year we (borough
residents) voted to end the emissions testing program. That didn't sit well
with both the local govt and EPA minions. The area, city of Fairbanks and
the Fairbanks North Star Borough have been in "non-compliance" for several
years now. Two years ago and last year we had almost a month of days in
which the air quality did not meet federal standards. It was in the months
of --------June, July, and August!!!!! Surprise... Surprise... The cause?
Wildfires burning around the area... We had up to 80-85 of various sizes at
any given time for three months. So the EPA went out and tested the air
quality and guess what....Particulate levels were way too high...No s**t
Dick Tracy... They gave the city and the borough citations (no fines this
time) for that. That is the mentality with which we deal. Now the city
fathers and the borough tyrants are running scared and are looking for ways
to come into compliance. They have received several suggestions but they
didn't like any of them...Hehehe!!!! They have threatened to raise property
taxes (can't do that - we voted a tax cap in), vehicle emissions controls
(we voted that out also), so now they are going after those individuals
using wood as their heating source. Sigh!!!! Sorry for the rant. ..
Ken Harrison, if you read this post. Please accept my most sincere apology
for my overreaction to your previous post.
DaveD
>
>
Ken Harrison
> Ken Harrison, if you read this post. Please accept my most sincere apology
> for my overreaction to your previous post.
>
> DaveD
>>
Thank you.
Ken
JerryD(upstateNY)
source.<<<<<<<<<<
How did the world survive back the 40's and 50's, when almost everyone used
wood and/or coal to heat their homes ?
--
JerryD(upstateNY)
"Dave D" <dtdo...@acsalaska.net> wrote in message
news:499b9891$1...@news.acsalaska.net
nothermark
wrote:
similar to upstate NY. Towns with more cows than people are in
trouble over cow flatulence.
Then there is the cow tax:
http://www.saratogian.com/articles/2008/11/30/news/doc49320bcf9f2b2682814436.txt
I'm from the government and I'm here to help......
Gary
electric is getting cold water up to shower temp and maintaining a good
flow.
I wish my electric was only 5.5 cents/kwh. It's been twice that for years
and just went up 30% in January!
--
Gary
Central Illinois USA
Visit Lucy & Gary and do the jigsaw puzzle at
www.under-1-roof.com/PuzzlePage.html
"Will" <wi...@epix.net> wrote in message
news:8lfdp41061kkro9mj...@4ax.com...