No wonder Coleman is having issues . . .
Kevin
We are investigating TTs now and have talked to some people about the
Fleetwood models, the group that makes Coleman pop-ups. No wonder the
company is having issues. Checkout the company's stock information. They
have recently been lowered to BB- credit status and the stock keeps sliding.
That company has some major issues to work out for sure. Not a company I'd
be eager to invest in right now. It's worth looking into if you are thinking
about Coleman or any other Fleetwood product.
Happy New Year,
Kevin
Bill Krahling
I would say that posts from this and other boards my have a bit to do with
it. IMO - It is like TV News - If they are reporting bad news it sort of
makes it worse.
I have a Coleman and so far so good. I am a bit paranoid about it because
of all the reading that I have done on both boards - This one and Popup
Times. I would say that the stock would go down with all the bad press.
(Not to mention the economy taking a different turn) Should Coleman do
something for those it affects (New or Used) - Yes
I still think it is the best thing running. I truly love my Niagra. If I
have to buy a new roof it will still be cheaper than buying new. (Hey. then
I think I will have the warrantee)
Would I consider buying something else - Yes - But I would more than likely
go back to a Coleman.
-- Bill K
00' Coleman Niagra
99' Chevy Astro
Fireteam 6 - An Army Camping Family
"Kevin" <No...@nunya.com> wrote in message
news:C5lY7.27393$mu.10...@typhoon.neo.rr.com...
Kevin
I agree that the bad press and economy can have an impact on a company. Bad
press should if they truly have issues and the economy in the short term if
it is due to something such as 9/11/01. I'm actually referring to Fleetwood
Enterprises, Inc. (NYSE: FLE) maker of the Coleman campers, etc. They have
been on a steady decline from a price per share of approximately $40 in Jan
of '99 to a close on Monday of $11.33, losses of $ .38/share as of 12/10,
layoffs of 20% of RV Support employees and the lowered credit rating. This
is the entire company, not just the Coleman, Wilderness, etc. camper
section. It's very tough to keep a good product rolling out the door when
the money and people just aren't there.
Again, these are just observations that we will be keeping in mind. We have
to look at the Wilderness TTs yet, but this will probably weigh on our
decision if they even have anything we might consider. I'm betting we end up
between Coachman and Jayco.
Happy New Year,
Kevin
"Bill Krahling" <bkra...@kc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:u3qY7.153681$8w3.33...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
Miles
have been major declines throughout the market. This is especially true as
far as the RV industries go. I think in a poll taken on another pop-up forum
Coleman brand ownership far exceeds all others. So that must say something
for the product. My next Camper will likely be a fifth wheel but until then
I am satisfied with the 00 Niagara we own.
Kevin
The "Coleman" name is known on anything from flashlights to campers. They
are a cheap way to get into a pop-up. Ask just about any dealer around and
they will tell you that Starcraft is generally known as the Cadillacs of
pop-ups. Just because Coleman pop-ups are popular doesn't mean they are
anywhere near the best, but may be the cheapest and a good pusher of
product. Just recall the Beta vs. VHS video format battle for example!
"Miles" <mil...@microconnect.net> wrote in message
news:3c3250b6$0$61533$4d5e...@reader.city-net.com...
Chris Cowles
but, without debating that, your FACTS are simply wrong. Colemans are not
nearly the cheapest. In fact, they're probably the most expensive of
canvas-sided pop-ups.
--
Chris Cowles
Gainesville, FL
"Kevin" <No...@nunya.com> wrote in message
news:hFNY7.33325$mu.11...@typhoon.neo.rr.com...
Jim Redelfs
"Chris Cowles" <Y...@CantFindMe.net> wrote:
> Colemans are not nearly the cheapest.
To prove this, all one has to do is peruse the popup section of a major
sport/travel/RV show and do some side-by-side comparison of simple
STICKER prices. Nevermind the specials, gimicks and "free" canopies.
When we special-ordered our 1987 Starcraft Galaxy folddown camper, it
was after much research over several years. At the time, I had equal
access to tenured and reputable dealerships for both Coleman and
Starcraft, so the choice was determined on features alone. Yes, PRICE
was a "feature" - but not Numero Uno by any stretch.
We bought a Starcraft because it was available with a hot water package
WITHOUT a shower while all Coleman hot water packages REQUIRED a shower.
I didn't want to "lose" the floor space that a shower occupies. Also,
at that time, all Coleman's had little, albiet FAT,10-inch tires that I
believe were prone to failure. Starcraft had "fullsize" tires.
> [A Coleman is] probably the most expensive of
> canvas-sided pop-ups.
You'll get no argument from me. Now that they have taken to using
"real" tires and electric brakes on all their popup campers, a Coleman
generally represents the best of what the industry has to offer.
However, if the so-far-phantom Base Camp<tm> hard-sided folding camper
shows up for even NEAR the price their web site suggests, they could
easily become King of PopUpdom.
:)
JR
Jeff H
Jeff
Dino
argument.
But let me say this. I know pop up trailers! I have been over them, under
them, through them! I've taken them apart in my driveway just to see how they
are built! And when I say taken apart, I mean down to the frame! Everything
went into the trash...the trailer was donated to my church. I know who supplied
the wood, the axles, the interior items and the canvas. I've studied them in
order to learn about the ups and downs of every design. I'll tell you why
later.
Coleman, by far, exceeds the rest of the pop-ups made today. Let me point out
a few examples...
1. Coleman uses OSB board in their floor AND THEIR BUNKS! The competition
uses plywood for their bunks. OSB is superior as we all know. This is
why it is used for the floor by everyone. It resists weather by design
and (as the name says) is a STRUCTURE BOARD.
2. Coleman uses a tube frame. Not folded medal, not angle, TUBE!
3. The quality of the interior is also superior (more of an opinion, I admit).
Canvas vs Sunbrella vs Aqualon is up for debate. They all have their advantages
and disadvantages.
I would like to see the Coleman adopt the Dexter Torflex axle! There are other
issues too.
BUT, if it was MY money and I was going to buy a new (or used) pop-up, I
would not HESITATE to buy a Coleman. Even though I like the Aqualon better!
I'll tell you this though, 90% of my decision depends on my dealer! If my
local dealer was an ass, I wouldn't buy from him. The dealer is everything!
Now, lets see what this Base Camp thing is. I'm flying to Denver to check
out the company and their trailer. I'll keep you all posted!
No flames towards you sir! Your post is a good one!
Dino
meldx
Prowler...
Still no major issues with all 3....
now, if the stock market went down.... does this makes them a less good RVs?? not
sure, but I have a nortel phone at home and it's still working even if the share
went zooming down from 124$ to 13$ (that's Canadian dollars)
BTW: I also own some of those shares...
Mel
Dino wrote:
--
MELDX....FAMILY AND CAMPING SITE
http://www3.sympatico.ca/meldx
family e-mail: me...@sympatico.ca
camping-RV e-mail: camp...@gosympatico.ca
Matthew S. Whiting
>
> I'm glad you brought this up! I often use the VHS vs BETA and IBM vs MAC
> argument.
>
> But let me say this. I know pop up trailers! I have been over them, under
> them, through them! I've taken them apart in my driveway just to see how they
> are built! And when I say taken apart, I mean down to the frame! Everything
> went into the trash...the trailer was donated to my church. I know who supplied
> the wood, the axles, the interior items and the canvas. I've studied them in
> order to learn about the ups and downs of every design. I'll tell you why
> later.
>
> Coleman, by far, exceeds the rest of the pop-ups made today. Let me point out
> a few examples...
>
> 1. Coleman uses OSB board in their floor AND THEIR BUNKS! The competition
> uses plywood for their bunks. OSB is superior as we all know. This is
> why it is used for the floor by everyone. It resists weather by design
> and (as the name says) is a STRUCTURE BOARD.
So does my Viking.
> 2. Coleman uses a tube frame. Not folded medal, not angle, TUBE!
So what? Look under any pickup truck or tractor trailer on the road.
What do you find? Hint: it isn't a tube frame, it is a channel frame.
> 3. The quality of the interior is also superior (more of an opinion, I admit).
Yes, that is an opinion.
Matt
Kirk Dreger
>
>
> > 2. Coleman uses a tube frame. Not folded medal, not angle, TUBE!
>
> So what? Look under any pickup truck or tractor trailer on the road.
> What do you find? Hint: it isn't a tube frame, it is a channel frame.
>
>
>
Heavy duty pickups have 'boxed frames' on some models. So do some tractors,
it really depends on a large truck how you specked out the frame when you
ordered it. Box frames are stronger, period. FWIW.
Kirk
Matthew S. Whiting
Nope, a box frame of the same exterior dimension, steel thickness, steel
alloy, etc. will be stronger. It is very naive to say a box frame is
stronger, period. How about a box frame that is 2" wide by 4" deep and
made of 1/4" steel compared to a channel frame that is 4" wide x 12"
deep and made of 1/2" thick steel? Now which is stronger?
:-)
It is always dangerous to make absolute statements.
Matt
Mark Filice hotmail.com>
di...@deltanet.com says...
>
>
>But let me say this. I know pop up trailers! I have been over them, under
>them, through them! I've taken them apart in my driveway just to see how they
>are built! And when I say taken apart, I mean down to the frame! Everything
>went into the trash...the trailer was donated to my church. I know who supplied
>the wood, the axles, the interior items and the canvas. I've studied them in
>order to learn about the ups and downs of every design. I'll tell you why
>later.
>
>Coleman, by far, exceeds the rest of the pop-ups made today. Let me point out
>a few examples...
>
>1. Coleman uses OSB board in their floor AND THEIR BUNKS! The competition
> uses plywood for their bunks. OSB is superior as we all know. This is
> why it is used for the floor by everyone. It resists weather by design
> and (as the name says) is a STRUCTURE BOARD.
>
>2. Coleman uses a tube frame. Not folded medal, not angle, TUBE!
>
>3. The quality of the interior is also superior (more of an opinion, I admit).
>
>Canvas vs Sunbrella vs Aqualon is up for debate. They all have their advantages
>and disadvantages.
>
Here are the specs for Starcraft pop ups--pasted from Starcraft's website.
2002 Constellation Folding Camping Trailers - Features
CONSTRUCTION
 Fully Laminated Sidewalls w/Aluminum Tube Perimeter & Bead Foam
Insulation
 NEW Fiberglass Exterior Skin
 Adjustable Stabilizing Jacks
 Spare Tire Mount w/Molded Swing Down Tire Cover
 3-Stage Plated Steel Double Lift System
 NEW 5-Piece Aqualon® 7 Tent Assembly
 Laminated Bunk Ends w/Permanently Attached Bunk Support Poles & Filon®
Undercoating (1300# Capacity)
 Molded Fiberglass Roof w/Urethane Foam Insulation
 Independent Torsion Axle w/Electric Brakes
 One Piece, Sealed & Undercoated Floor Decking
 E-Coat Chassis
 Armstrong® "Tough Guard" Linoleum Floor
 ABS Bottle, Battery & Tire Cover
So it appears that Starcraft uses tube construction for their frame, also. It
also looks like they use laminated bunk ends with "Filon".
You gave 3 reasons why Coleman is "by far, exceeds the rest of the pop ups made
today." Only one of those is correct, and you freely admit it is "more of an
opinion." So one would have to come to the conclusion that ALL of your reasons
are opinions.
>
>BUT, if it was MY money and I was going to buy a new (or used) pop-up, I
>would not HESITATE to buy a Coleman. Even though I like the Aqualon better!
>
>I'll tell you this though, 90% of my decision depends on my dealer! If my
>local dealer was an ass, I wouldn't buy from him. The dealer is everything!
>
The main reason I bought my Starcraft is my dealer is close to my home, and was
very helpful. I found the Coleman dealer equally as competent, but they were 50
miles away. Had their locations been reversed, I would most likely own a
Coleman.
Coleman pop ups have the largest market share of all of the pop up brands. But
if you add Jayco and Starcraft together, they might be close.
Just in case you didn't know--Starcraft is owned by Jayco.
I would suggest to you that you adopt the same attitude about pop ups that I do
about beer--"The best one in the world is the one you are camping with."
Good Camping,
Mark Filice
1999 Starcraft Starflyer
1990 Ford Ranger
Tom Warfield
<whi...@epix.net> wrote:
>> 2. Coleman uses a tube frame. Not folded medal, not angle, TUBE!
>
>So what? Look under any pickup truck or tractor trailer on the road.
>What do you find? Hint: it isn't a tube frame, it is a channel frame.
You are comparing apples & oranges here. The thickness of the metal
that makes up the channel on the pickup or tractor is certainly more
than that used on popups that use the channel frame and that lets the
channel frame work for that application. As has been said many times
before, there is a reason that Coleman allows the use of a weight
distributing hitch while most other popups (that use the channel
frame) don't.
I'm certainly no engineer and don't have the specs, but I think that
if you compared the strength ratings of the heaviest channel frame
used on a popup and the Coleman tube frame you would find that the
channel frame wouldn't even come close to the tube frame.
*****************
-Tom Warfield
> 2000 Coleman Mesa
> 1999 Ford Ranger (4dr supercab, 4.0L, 5sp AT w/OD)
> In the great Pacific NorthWest (sw washington)
http://communities.msn.com/PopUpTrailerCamping
Kirk Dreger
at hand is trailer frame construction and vehicle frames. Many times the
auto makers will simply take the same vehicle frame and box it for added
strength. They have been doing this for decades. Stay on subject and you
will see the light.
Kirk
"Matthew S. Whiting" <whi...@epix.net> wrote in message
news:3C34F7CF...@epix.net...
Kirk Dreger
Kirk
<twarfiel -at- hotmail -dot- com (Tom Warfield)> wrote in message
news:t02a3u8h66mi22qm5...@4ax.com...
Matthew S. Whiting
>
> On Thu, 03 Jan 2002 22:22:33 GMT, "Matthew S. Whiting"
> <whi...@epix.net> wrote:
>
> >> 2. Coleman uses a tube frame. Not folded medal, not angle, TUBE!
> >
> >So what? Look under any pickup truck or tractor trailer on the road.
> >What do you find? Hint: it isn't a tube frame, it is a channel frame.
>
> You are comparing apples & oranges here. The thickness of the metal
> that makes up the channel on the pickup or tractor is certainly more
> than that used on popups that use the channel frame and that lets the
> channel frame work for that application. As has been said many times
> before, there is a reason that Coleman allows the use of a weight
> distributing hitch while most other popups (that use the channel
> frame) don't.
>
> I'm certainly no engineer and don't have the specs, but I think that
> if you compared the strength ratings of the heaviest channel frame
> used on a popup and the Coleman tube frame you would find that the
> channel frame wouldn't even come close to the tube frame.
That may be true, I don't have the specs either. My point was that it
has nothing to do with whether it is a tube frame or not. As you point
out, the issue is how strong the frame is. Any style of construction
can be equally strong. And the real issue is are the other camper's
frames strong enough. Since I've never seen a pop-up frame fail as yet,
I'd say the answer is yes. Good engineering means making the structure
as strong as it needs to be, and not much stronger. Everything beyond
that is wasted money and weight.
Matt
Dino
weekend and see if what you say is true about the OSB bunks.
As far as the frame goes, it DOES make a difference! Thanks for agreeing with
me on #3.
Dino
Dino
Plywood is "Laminated" OSB is a complete different issue. Look at
one and you will see.
So as not to upset anyone too much, I like the top three. I just like Coleman
better. ALTHOUGH, I really like Starcrafts Aqualon!
Learn more about Filon here...
http://www.kemlite.com/filon_frp/filon_frp_index.cfm
Dino
Jim Redelfs
<m_filice@<nospam>hotmail.com> wrote:
> You gave 3 reasons why Coleman is "by far, exceeds the rest of the pop
ups made
> today." Only one of those is correct, and you freely admit it is "more of an
> opinion." So one would have to come to the conclusion that ALL of your reasons
> are opinions.
This should be ASSUMED to be the case in virtually ALL occurrences.
Anything you read on Usenet should be considered someone's OPINION. It is
incumbent upon the reader to SEEK confirmation of that opinion's factual
status, if any, if so desired.
I hate disclaimers and consider them extraneous and a waste of bandwidth.
I rarely use "IMHO" since, as I espouse above, everything read is
automatically OPINION, anyway.
When folks come back spouting something like, "Oh, yeah? Well that's YOUR
opinion!", that is like saying the sun comes up in the morning. Like, so
what ELSE is new? Duh!
Reminding a poster that their words are an OPINION is also extraneous.
Just remember what Will Rogers said: "I don't believe anything I read in
the newspaper and only HALF of what I hear". It's a good maxim to "live
by" on Usenet.
:)
JR
Westcott Family
togethers" of a Coleman to a Starcraft and know that' bunk or at the
very least a matter of opinion.
When we bought a camper we came into it with NO KNOWLEDGE of campers.
My husband always tent camped and so did I when I married him. We went
to RV shows and looked at them all, Jayco, Dutchman, Starcraft, etc.
without any bias and could see that they didn't hold a candle to the
mechanical superiority of the Colemans. (at least at that time) WE
even waited til we could save a little more to get the Coleman.
Coleman's are usually more expensive and aren't the most popular because
they cost more, they are mechanically sound and carry a good warrenty.
Every one has their own requirements, but I'm married to a man who can
barely open a trash bag and we needed something that wouldn't fall
apart. WE HAVE had issues and all products do. But they have been
resolved with minimal effort with Coleman and even with saggy roofs, bad
faucets, I'll buy another in a heartbeat. But EVERYONE should enjoy
what they have. It meets their requirements and expectations.
Cybrgeezer
>wrote:
>
>Anything you read on Usenet should be considered someone's OPINION. It is
>incumbent upon the reader to SEEK confirmation of that opinion's factual
>status, if any, if so desired.
Quote from Dr. George D. Lundberg, former editor of the Journal of the American
Medical Association:
"Information on the Internet is subject to the same rules and regulations as
conversation at a bar. It may be very valid; it may be utter trash."
Amen, Doc
Will
Matthew S. Whiting
>
> Vikings tend to be the cheap way out. I check out the local Viking dealer this
> weekend and see if what you say is true about the OSB bunks.
I don't know about that as I bought a Viking because at the time the
dealer was only 5 miles away. I didn't look all that hard at other
makes as the next nearest dealer was 20 miles away. Did look at
Starcraft, but didn't like the floor plans available at that time. It
may be a cheap way out and maybe not, I don't know.
I don't know what Viking uses today, but I can assure you than my 1991
190 model has OSB bunks. I believe an OSB floor as well, but I'm not
sure. Anyway, I'd rather have plywood as OSB is cheaper grade material
made from scraps of wood that have no other use. If you don't believe
this, call your local lumber yard and price a sheet of plywood vs. the
same size sheet of OSB.
Matt
Matthew S. Whiting
>
> In article <a12v...@drn.newsguy.com>, Mark Filice
> <m_filice@<nospam>hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > You gave 3 reasons why Coleman is "by far, exceeds the rest of the pop
> ups made
> > today." Only one of those is correct, and you freely admit it is "more of an
> > opinion." So one would have to come to the conclusion that ALL of your reasons
> > are opinions.
>
> This should be ASSUMED to be the case in virtually ALL occurrences.
>
> Anything you read on Usenet should be considered someone's OPINION. It is
> incumbent upon the reader to SEEK confirmation of that opinion's factual
> status, if any, if so desired.
That is probably the only fact you'll ever see in a newsgroup! :-)
Matt
Jim and Linda King
>are a cheap way to get into a pop-up.
>From: "Kevin" No...@nunya.com
Not sure why you chose to post such a negative, non-productive paragraph
slamming Colemans, but around here, they are most certainly NOT the cheap way
to get into a popup. They are one of the most expensive. You want cheap
around here - get a Palomino.
Linda King
Fleetville, PA
'93 Chevy Suburban
'99 Coleman Bayside (for sale!)
meldx
special glue so that in will resist water and mildew. I do recall that my Coleman
dealer had a piece of that board soaking into a jar of water and there board was not
swollen at all... not sure what would have happened with regular osb or plywood.
Mel
"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote:
--
Jim Redelfs
<whi...@epix.net> wrote:
> I'd rather have plywood as OSB is cheaper grade material
> made from scraps of wood that have no other use. If you don't believe
> this, call your local lumber yard and price a sheet of plywood vs. the
> same size sheet of OSB.
I'm not an engineer, but I play one on Use(less)net<tm>, so here goes...
OSB (Oriented Strand Board) is structurally superior to conventional
plywood (like thicknesses compared). That is not a claim of its water
resistance (if any) or other potential attributes. That it is CHEAPER is
due simply to the fact that it contains somewhat less REAL wood and, what
wood there is in OSB is smaller pieces, indeed CHUNKS of wood.
Dey come a long waaay, babeeee, with all dem glues 'n stuff.
:)
JR
Matthew S. Whiting
Define structurally superior?
Matt
HAMILTON DOUG
it has all the supposedly superior features of a Coleman plus a better
roof and a Sunbrella vinyl tent.
http://www.vikingrv.com/2002/construction.htm
My Viking has a one piece OSB under coated floor, the reason most RV
makers use OSB for the floors is not that it is stronger than plywood it
isn't, they use it because OSB is available in single sheets big enough
to to make the floor with one piece of OSB they don't make plywood in
sheets wider than 5'. If you check into engineered wood standards and
local building codes you will find in most applications OSB must be
1/16" to 1/8" thicker than spruce plywood( the weakest type of plywood).
Both OSB and plywood vary in strength depending on the materials used to
make them, to my knowledge Baltic Birch plywood is the strongest
structurally and this is what Viking appears to have used for its bunk
ends but the queen size bunk does use 2 pieces.
There was one thing I found in common to all the 2001-2 pop ups I looked
at the cabinets in all of them where very poor to awful in quality, that
said some of the $100k+ motor homes I saw at the dealers where no
better.
I think you will find if you look at all the different makers they each
have built a lemon or two just like car manufacturers. An excellent
example would be the new Jayco Qwest pop ups the quality of workmanship
in these was the worst I saw new or used and yet their pervious Eagle
models where very good. All the manufacturers build these things more to
a price than any quality standard.
When I started shopping I asked neighbor who services RV's for a living
what brand was best, he didn't have a favorite he just told me to avoid
the following items, canvas tent materials( you have to waterproof them
yearly because of the dry hot summers here), molded plastic front and
rear body work( almost as expensive as a roof to replace and not
normally warrantied ), aluminum outer skin ( we get a lot of hail storms
during the summer here ), and the last item was to make sure to get a
one piece roof( no center seam ).
My Viking fit all his requirements and was the second cheapest unit only
Flagstaff where less and my wife didn't like the colors in the
Flagstaffs.
Just my $0.02 do your home work before purchasing and you should be
happy.
Doug Hamilton
2002 Viking 1906ST
2002 Isuzu Rodeo
Matthew S. Whiting
Jim, I are an inganeer. :-) You may want to check out this site (one
of many I found in a quick Yahoo search)
http://sres.anu.edu.au/associated/fpt/osb/Product.html#Strength
Here's a brief excerpt:
The progression of wood composite materials to structural applications
required them to have
mechanical properties that approach those of wood. does this through
flake alignment.(Shaler 1991).
The modulus of elasticity (MOE), Modulus of rupture (MOR), internal
bonding (IB) and tensile strength
(TS) of OSB improves as resin content increases from 4 to 6% (Avramidis
1989). The spot resin
bonds used in manufacture are, in themselves, not strong. Consequently
the boards are particularly
weak in tension perpendicular to the flat surface of the particles.
However, the product is rarely used in
a way that would place this kind of stress on the board. The compression
of the mat to produce the
board adds to its strength greatly by interlocking the fibres making up
the particles (Kubler 1994). However, the strength properties of
(bending strength
and stiffness), while around greater than that of waferboard, are still
not as good as plywood.(Illston 1994). Norbord Ltd has a MOR parallel to
the panel
length of 34N/mm2 and perpendicular to the panel length of 18n/mm2. It
has a MOE parallel to the panel length of 5000N/mm2 and perpendicular to
the
panel length of 2000N/mm2. (Picture from Norbord)
If the original poster believes that using OSB is a sign of quality,
then he has at least one thing left to learn. OSB is widely used because
it is cheaper than plywood, not better. That is why it is used in
building houses now and why it is used in campers. OSB is to plywood
what cigarettes are to cigars! It uses the leftovers!! :-)
Matt
edf...@peoplepc.com
> > plywood (like thicknesses compared). That is not a claim of its water
> > resistance (if any) or other potential attributes. That it is CHEAPER
> > is due simply to the fact that it contains somewhat less REAL wood and,
> > what wood there is in OSB is smaller pieces, indeed CHUNKS of wood.
>
> Define structurally superior?
>
> Matt
Define "define"...this sure is a dumb thread. My camper is better than your
camper. My camper uses better wood that your camper. My camper uses better
framing than your camper. Your camper is cheap. Your camper cost too much.
Soon it will be my camper has prettier paint than your camper.
Who cares?
I've yet to hear of ANY camper frame failing falling apart or anyone
falling through the bunk, or whatever. All campers have their faults, no
matter what brand you choose. To be honest, I don't think there is ANY
perfect camper out there...no matter if it is a pop-up, travel trailer,
motorhome, whatever. I've yet to see one I'd consider perfect. If the
manufacturers were smart, one of them would design a whole new one camper,
taking all the best from all the brands out there and leaving out all the
weaknesses of each brand.
This is an arguement that cannot be won. One side will never convince the
other and the truth is, none of the brands are perfect.
(not directed specifically at Matt...just everyone arguring on who has the
best)
Ed
--
-----------
Ed Ferguson edf...@peoplepc.com
http://www.edferg.com
2001 Starcraft TravelStar 23RBS/Dodge Ram 1500 QuadCab
Matthew S. Whiting
What's your point, Ed? We have to occupy our time somehow until spring
comes! :-)
Lighten up, it's better for your blood pressure.
Matt
Mark Filice hotmail.com>
>incumbent upon the reader to SEEK confirmation of that opinion's factual
>status, if any, if so desired.
>
>I hate disclaimers and consider them extraneous and a waste of bandwidth.
>
Bandwith is rarely a problem in present day Usenet. Of course, that disclaimers
are a waste is just your opinion.
>I rarely use "IMHO" since, as I espouse above, everything read is
>automatically OPINION, anyway.
>
OTOH, it can be used to soften the criticism that often follows the acronym.
>When folks come back spouting something like, "Oh, yeah? Well that's YOUR
>opinion!", that is like saying the sun comes up in the morning. Like, so
>what ELSE is new? Duh!
>
When Dino wrote "I have taken apart all types of pop ups, so I know how they are
made", it comes across as a lot stronger stance than an opinion. But again, that
is IMHO.
>Reminding a poster that their words are an OPINION is also extraneous.
>
Again, that is your opinion, right?
>Just remember what Will Rogers said: "I don't believe anything I read in
>the newspaper and only HALF of what I hear". It's a good maxim to "live
>by" on Usenet.
>
Thanks for the axiom. I prefer "It is better to be lurk and thought to be a
fool, than to post to an internet newsgroup and remove all doubt."
8-)
Mark Filice hotmail.com>
di...@deltanet.com says...
>
>Nowhere in the specs does it say that the Starcraft has a tube frame.
>Plywood is "Laminated" OSB is a complete different issue. Look at
>one and you will see.
>
>So as not to upset anyone too much, I like the top three. I just like Coleman
>better. ALTHOUGH, I really like Starcrafts Aqualon!
>
>Learn more about Filon here...
>http://www.kemlite.com/filon_frp/filon_frp_index.cfm
>
>>
>>
>>2002 Constellation Folding Camping Trailers - Features
>>
>>CONSTRUCTION
>> Fully Laminated Sidewalls w/Aluminum Tube Perimeter & Bead Foam
>>Insulation
Dino:
Since you claim to have taken many of these pop ups apart, can you explain what
an "aluminum tube perimeter" is?
If it isn't the frame, than what is it?
What exactly is the frame of a Starcraft made of?
Matthew S. Whiting
>
> When Dino wrote "I have taken apart all types of pop ups, so I know how they are
> made", it comes across as a lot stronger stance than an opinion. But again, that
> is IMHO.
Only if he understands what he sees. The content of his post indicates
this may not be the case.
> >Reminding a poster that their words are an OPINION is also extraneous.
> >
> Again, that is your opinion, right?
>
> >Just remember what Will Rogers said: "I don't believe anything I read in
> >the newspaper and only HALF of what I hear". It's a good maxim to "live
> >by" on Usenet.
> >
> Thanks for the axiom. I prefer "It is better to be lurk and thought to be a
> fool, than to post to an internet newsgroup and remove all doubt."
And I thought it was "don't believe anything you hear and only half of
what you see!"
:-)
Matt
Jim Redelfs
<whi...@epix.net> wrote:
> OSB is to plywood what cigarettes are to cigars!
> It uses the leftovers!! :-)
Agreed. But it's stronger than plywood. Right?
:)
JR
Jim Redelfs
> Define "define"...
Will do. Right after you tell us what the definition of "is" is.
[ducking]
:)
JR
Jim Redelfs
<m_filice@<nospam>hotmail.com> wrote:
> What exactly is the frame of a Starcraft made of?
Oriented Strand Board?
Plywood?
Forced-air or Radiant?
(I'm going to supper)
<big grin>
JR
Matthew S. Whiting
It depends. It is stronger in shear, but not as strong in bending. It
also swells more in the presence of moisture. I posted a link earlier
that addresses this. If you do a search on "OSB vs. plywood", you'll
find all sorts of information. Ignore the stuff from folks who make
either OSB or plywood, and look at the university links and things like
NFPA (national forest products association if memory serves). Most
folks consider it inferior to plywood, but very close in performance at
about 1/2 the price. Most use it for value, not because it is better.
Matt
Matthew S. Whiting
I think Bill covered that adequately. I guess I shouldn't have used
that earlier analogy to a cigar, eh? :-)
Matt
Jim Redelfs
<douglase...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> in most applications OSB must be
> 1/16" to 1/8" thicker than spruce plywood
Alright, already. I'll quit PLAYING engineer on the newsgroup.
I wanna go CAMPIN'!!
:)
JR
edf...@peoplepc.com
he's the expert on what is is! :-)
(Give yourself 10 points...I was beginning to wonder if anyone was gonna
pick up on pun!)
Ed
--
edf...@peoplepc.com
> comes! :-)
> Lighten up, it's better for your blood pressure.
>
> Matt
Actually, Matt, I AM lightening up....that's why I wrote it...to antagonize
and pick at those taking this silly thread too seriously! I love this group
but it never ceases to amaze me how a little comment results in an endless,
silly thread like this one.
In otherwords, it does my blood pressure good to pick on you guys for
carrying on this dumb thread.
So, tag you're it! You fell for it! :-)
But, I was serious about the no perfect camper comments. If those camper
companies were smart enough to ask US, we could design the best camper
ever!
BTW: The paint on my camper IS prettier than yours is! And, so is my OSB!
HeatMan
Am I allowed to call you a SMARTASS?
HeatMan
"Jim Redelfs" <jim.r...@redelfs.com> wrote in message
news:jim.redelfs-04...@216-40-2-149.novia.net...
the old anarchist
the old anarchist
wood shavings stressed in one direction per layer for strength. it is
cheaper than plywood because the size of wood required to make the sheet,
plywood requires larger pieces of veneer (yes, veneer). both are pressurized
to create the laminate. using the smaller pieces is less expensive.
dimensionally, each is nearly identical in performance if you use the same
size, same ratings of glue (ie, exterior, interior) and grade. you think
they are putting together houses using actual 6x6 beams? they are using
structured wood products, which are laminated beams. stronger in some
respects and mucho cheaper. now particle board, that is press sawdust and
often is used when stress isn't required. i replaced the little bit of
particle board in my camper with osb. particle board is often thought to be
osb or just as good, not.
the old anarchist
"meldx" <me...@sympatico.ca--removespam> wrote in message
news:3C361022...@sympatico.ca--removespam...
Matthew S. Whiting
>
> > What's your point, Ed? We have to occupy our time somehow until spring
> > comes! :-)
> > Lighten up, it's better for your blood pressure.
> >
> > Matt
>
> Actually, Matt, I AM lightening up....that's why I wrote it...to antagonize
> and pick at those taking this silly thread too seriously! I love this group
> but it never ceases to amaze me how a little comment results in an endless,
> silly thread like this one.
>
> In otherwords, it does my blood pressure good to pick on you guys for
> carrying on this dumb thread.
No problem, glad I(we) could help! That's what friends are for.
> So, tag you're it! You fell for it! :-)
Not the first time, won't be the last. :-)
> But, I was serious about the no perfect camper comments. If those camper
> companies were smart enough to ask US, we could design the best camper
> ever!
That's a fact.
> BTW: The paint on my camper IS prettier than yours is! And, so is my OSB!
My Viking is nearly 11 years old and your Starcraft is one year old, so
I'm guessing you are correct! And if you aren't, then Starcraft must
have really crappy paint!
Matt
Matthew S. Whiting
Have fun. Take your winter sleeping bag though.
Matt
Matthew S. Whiting
>
> the osb is an exterior grade product using waterproof glues. it is laminated
> wood shavings stressed in one direction per layer for strength. it is
> cheaper than plywood because the size of wood required to make the sheet,
> plywood requires larger pieces of veneer (yes, veneer). both are pressurized
> to create the laminate. using the smaller pieces is less expensive.
> dimensionally, each is nearly identical in performance if you use the same
> size, same ratings of glue (ie, exterior, interior) and grade. you think
> they are putting together houses using actual 6x6 beams? they are using
> structured wood products, which are laminated beams. stronger in some
> respects and mucho cheaper. now particle board, that is press sawdust and
> often is used when stress isn't required. i replaced the little bit of
> particle board in my camper with osb. particle board is often thought to be
> osb or just as good, not.
Yes, particle board is not a structurally rated product. OSB is.
Strength increases with the size of the wood pieces being used. Plywood
has the largest wood pieces of any of the engineered products. :-)
Matt
Jim Redelfs
"HeatMan" <heatai...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Am I allowed to call you a SMARTASS?
Hehehehe! Why not? If the foo shits -er -if the shoe fits.
(You wouldn't be the first)
:)
JR
Dino
construction you listed below is talking about their sidewalls. Basically
the wall perimeter is made of aluminum then the sidewalls are laminated on.
Instead of using 1x2 wood, they use aluminum. There are advantages to aluminum
IF (big IF) it is welded properly. Most aluminum sidewall campers pop their
welds. Fourwheel Pop Up campers suffer from this.
I never said one camper was better than the other. I said Coleman has
advantages over other models then proceeded to list them.
I will have to dig out my information on the OSB subject. I met with the
enginneers of Weyerhaeuser and Georgia Pacific on the difference between
the boards and even brought home samples with literature. OSB was superior
in strength. My original questions to the engineers is should I use
MARINE GRADE plywood in my trailers over OSB. They recommended not to.
Also, I don't own a Coleman. I can't afford it. I have a 1969 Vista Liner!
Dino
>Since you claim to have taken many of these pop ups apart, can you explain what
>an "aluminum tube perimeter" is?
>
>If it isn't the frame, than what is it?
>
>What exactly is the frame of a Starcraft made of?
>
>Mark Filice
>1999 Starcraft Starflyer
>1990 Ford Ranger
>
>>>CONSTRUCTION
Dino
words out. Good job guys! :-)))
Dino
Doc
RE: Re: No wonder Coleman is having issues . . .
BY: "Matthew S. Whiting" <whi...@epix.net>
-
However, OSB is usually thinner than similar rated plywood.
example, 7/16 OSB is rated the same as 1/2 plywood.
both are rated 32/16.
-
-
Origin: The Wild Wild West * 503-623-0185
Michael Pitts
Coleman, I wanted to throw my opinion in. I bought a Coleman new, but
for the life of me I can not recall what the model was called. I
remember it had a hard side bathroom and shower when set up and I have
always mssed that feature. I kept it about nine years, and it was
basically trouble free. In 1999 I bought a Rockwood Signature. As far
as I can tell, the costruction a far as mateials, fit and finish, inside
and out, are equal to the Coleman. They do things differently, but I
have been pretty thorough about going through both of my campers because
I like to know as much as I can about how they work and how they are put
together. Rockwood does use a channel frame, but it is heavy steel. It
has OSB flooring, and everything is sealed well underneath, and
bolted/screwed together well. I also looked at Jayco and Starcraft.
Money was not my problem. I found a good dealer and he had what I
liiked. Among the major brands I think they are all good. What one
person likes in a certain brand, the next person might not. Some one
else here said a good dealer is very important,and I agree with that.
It had a lot to do with my purchase.
HeatMan
Aww, rats. I may not be the first, but I'm the most recent!
Matthew S. Whiting
Do you have a reference? I did some quick searching the other day and
found just the opposite. In the same application (subfloor is what I
found), plywood was typically the thinnest specified, OSB was required
to be slightly thicker and solid pine the thickest of all.
Matt
Doc
>> >Yes, particle board is not a structurally rated product. OSB is.
>> >Strength increases with the size of the wood pieces being used. Plywood
>> >has the largest wood pieces of any of the engineered products. :-)
>> >Matt
>> -
>> However, OSB is usually thinner than similar rated plywood.
>> example, 7/16 OSB is rated the same as 1/2 plywood.
>> both are rated 32/16.
>
>Do you have a reference? I did some quick searching the other day and
>found just the opposite. In the same application (subfloor is what I
>found), plywood was typically the thinnest specified, OSB was required
>to be slightly thicker and solid pine the thickest of all.
>Matt
-
Well, I did a quick lookup for it on the 'net... but I have the material
data sheets in my office.
-
In my opinion, however, I would agree with you that the OSB should be
thicker if used as a subfloor. I saw a home that the roof had been
sheathed with waferboard/OSB at maximum span, the roof looked like
the ocean, waves and troughs. They had to tear it all off... For
verticle sheathing though, it is just fine. I have not seen it used
as sub-floor, only as underlayment.
-
Figures, I get back online and look and can find brochures, but nothing
with actual data. Sigh... guess it is out to the office, or better
back to the lumber yard to get more data sheets, and see if anything
has changed in the last year. I think that is how old the sheets I
have are. According to the Code book I have, they rate Plywood and
structural wood panels using the same minimum thickness to maximum
span tables.