Maiden Sucks? Fight For Quality!
JustSayOz
hard up for cash, hard up for new song ideas, yes, but I'm pretty sure
they've got plenty of money.
Significant Pickle wrote:
> It's been awhile since I (trolled.....er...lurked :) on this ng, and
> it's
> basically the same. So, a new thread..new topic.
>
> Why does Maiden suck now?
>
> Regardless of whether or not you think their new stuff is "bad", I've
> noticed that >no< rational human being on this ng has said anything
> better
> than "the new stuff is not anywhere near as good as the old, but it's
> okay".
>
> Why does Maiden keep releasing the new "okay" stuff? Because you
> fucking
> BUY it. Ever wonder why stuff that sounds closer to the mainstream
> SUCKS?
> Cos the 'artists' realize that they don't HAVE to put in the effort
> to
> make good music as long as there are sheep who will buy every fucking
> thing
> with their label on it. Why put in the effort, when sales are
> guaranteed?
> Faltering sales still equals profit on the scale of Maiden, and you
> know
> what?
>
> Their next album is going to be WORSE.
>
> And you're going to BUY it. Like a good little consumer.
>
> So, a solution: quit being such a lying sack-of-shit, and excersize
> some
> of that thing you have they call "free-will". Don't enjoy the music
> too
> much? There are only about a BILLION really good metal bands in the
> vein
> of Maiden (and many I dare say better) that you could listen to.
>
> "But I don't see any good metal on MTV....". Solution: stop letting
> the
> media spoonfeed you whatever they decide you should like. Get a mind
> of
> your own, and buy what you LIKE! Don't sit on your ass waiting for
> the
> next maiden album to give your life meaning....get it yourself!
> You're on
> the net...go read some METAL sites (www.chedsey.com,
> www.eternalfrost.com,
> www.evilmusic.com, the list is endless....). Listen to some MP3's
> (you
> need WinAmp to read them--keyword search on any major browser will do
> the
> trick). Discover BETTER music that you will LIKE more!
>
> It's not rocket science. And guess what? When Maiden realizes they
> can't
> get away with pawning the shit they do nowadays, they'll either play
> better
> music or QUIT! And the only people that would disappoint are the
> sheep
> who might as well be listening to Steve Harris' farts anyways ("as
> long as
> it's Maiden! I love EVERYTHING they do!!!!!!" <swoon, drool>).
>
> Your choice. Free-will, enjoyment of music you LIKE, or you can
> stand in
> line for the next piece of shit Maiden album, ready to hand your $ out
> like
> a well-trained little animal.
>
> E.
> --
> ******
> "We die and are reborn with each breath,
> And for each death; the shedding of a lie,
> A truth is born."
>
> --Foundation, "Morning"
--
JustSayOz
"It's Just a jump to the left
Then a step to the right
Put your hands on your hips
Pull your knees in tight
But it's the pelvic thrusts
That drive you insane
Let's do the Time Warp again!"
Significant Pickle
Tokus
Significant Pickle heeft geschreven in bericht
<01be322c$8640dc20$f493c898@vanguard>...
>It's been awhile since I (trolled.....er...lurked :) on this ng, and it's
>basically the same. So, a new thread..new topic.
>
>Why does Maiden suck now?
>
>Regardless of whether or not you think their new stuff is "bad", I've
>noticed that >no< rational human being on this ng has said anything better
>than "the new stuff is not anywhere near as good as the old, but it's
>okay".
>
>Why does Maiden keep releasing the new "okay" stuff? Because you fucking
>BUY it.
Maybe you didn't realise it, but they make music because they like to make
music. If it's all about the money for Maiden then why do you think that
they released four studio albums that sound completely different from what
made them famous (NOTB through 7th Son stuff)? If they wanted to make money,
they would record a Number of the Beast part 2, because every Maiden fan
(and probably every metal fan), old or new, would buy it.
> Ever wonder why stuff that sounds closer to the mainstream SUCKS?
>Cos the 'artists' realize that they don't HAVE to put in the effort to
>make good music as long as there are sheep who will buy every fucking thing
>with their label on it. Why put in the effort, when sales are guaranteed?
> Faltering sales still equals profit on the scale of Maiden, and you know
>what?
>
>Their next album is going to be WORSE.
well, we'll just have to wait and see then.
>And you're going to BUY it. Like a good little consumer.
Wrong. I'm going to listen to it, and if I like what I hear, I'll buy it.
that's the way it has always been with me.
>So, a solution: quit being such a lying sack-of-shit, and excersize some
>of that thing you have they call "free-will". Don't enjoy the music too
>much? There are only about a BILLION really good metal bands in the vein
>of Maiden (and many I dare say better) that you could listen to.
I had a feeling this was going to be a promotion for other bands.
>"But I don't see any good metal on MTV....". Solution: stop letting the
>media spoonfeed you whatever they decide you should like. Get a mind of
>your own, and buy what you LIKE!
You think most people here are stupid, and let the media decide for them?
you're wrong. How many times have you seen Maiden on mtv lately? none,
probably. Why o why do these people here then still listen to Maiden, even
though they aren't popular anymore? because they can think for themselves
and decide what they like.
>It's not rocket science. And guess what? When Maiden realizes they can't
>get away with pawning the shit they do nowadays, they'll either play better
>music or QUIT! And the only people that would disappoint are the sheep
>who might as well be listening to Steve Harris' farts anyways ("as long as
>it's Maiden! I love EVERYTHING they do!!!!!!" <swoon, drool>).
>Your choice. Free-will, enjoyment of music you LIKE, or you can stand in
>line for the next piece of shit Maiden album, ready to hand your $ out like
>a well-trained little animal.
O and you think you're so smart and so much better, just because you don't
like Maiden anymore and found some other bands that you like. Well, I have
news for you: there are a lot of very good bands that I like, a lot of which
you probably never even heard, but it's still Maiden I like best.
> E.
even afraid to put your own name on it? how pathetic....
cu
Tonnie
Curtis Rea
Significant Pickle wrote in message <01be322c$8640dc20$f493c898@vanguard>...
>It's been awhile since I (trolled.....er...lurked :) on this ng, and it's
>basically the same. So, a new thread..new topic.
>
>Why does Maiden suck now?
>
>Regardless of whether or not you think their new stuff is "bad", I've
>noticed that >no< rational human being on this ng has said anything better
>than "the new stuff is not anywhere near as good as the old, but it's
>okay".
The new albums are better than OK, but they aren't as good as POM or NOTB
because these albums are among the best ever released.
>Why does Maiden keep releasing the new "okay" stuff? Because you fucking
>BUY it. Ever wonder why stuff that sounds closer to the mainstream SUCKS?
Are you saying Maidens last albums cater to the mainsteam? Maybe I've been
living under a rock, but since when has heavy guitar driven 7 minute opus'
been considered mainstream (especially in this day of 3 minute pop songs)?
Tom Fletcher
about what you are saying. By all means, stay, as you could be the new
newsgroup arsehole who we can all flame "when we're feeling down depressed
and lonely".
Most people on this NG buy the music they like. You think that we are all
sheep. Your "Maiden sucks coz I say so" attitude doesn't appeal to me, and I
dare say that most people on this NG don't like it either.
--
Tom Fletcher
t...@fletch05.globalnet.co.uk
"Who leads you to the dark secrets?"
Bruce Dickinson
"You haunt me, you taunt me
You torture me back at your lair"
Steve Harris
Tom Fletcher
>Why does Maiden suck now?
Two names. Jannick Gers, and Blaze Bayley.
<Part of post cut>
>Their next album is going to be WORSE.
I agree! Top shit. Steaming shit.
>And you're going to BUY it. Like a good little consumer.
Nononononononononononono. I won't buy the pissing thing. I might listen to
it, but buy the pile of wank?
>So, a solution: quit being such a lying sack-of-shit, and excersize some
>of that thing you have they call "free-will". Don't enjoy the music too
>much? There are only about a BILLION really good metal bands in the vein
>of Maiden (and many I dare say better) that you could listen to.
Hey, I'm not a "lying sack-of-shit". And if I didn't exercise "free-will"
you doped up moron, I'd be listening to shit like Robbie Williams, like most
of the people I know.
>"But I don't see any good metal on MTV....". Solution: stop letting the
>media spoonfeed you whatever they decide you should like. Get a mind of
>your own, and buy what you LIKE! Don't sit on your ass waiting for the
>next maiden album to give your life meaning....get it yourself! You're on
>the net...go read some METAL sites (www.chedsey.com,
I don't sit on your ass waiting for the next maiden album to give my life
meaning. I listen to Bruce Dickinson. Maybe you should.
>Discover BETTER music that you will LIKE more!
Hey, gonad face, if I listened to YOUR type of music, I wouldn't be
exercising "free-will" that you want us all to do. YOU LISTEN TO YOUR SHIT,
I'LL LISTEN TO MINE. And your sorry ass isn't going to change my views.
>
>It's not rocket science. And guess what? When Maiden realizes they can't
>get away with pawning the shit they do nowadays, they'll either play better
>music or QUIT! And the only people that would disappoint are the sheep
>who might as well be listening to Steve Harris' farts anyways ("as long as
>it's Maiden! I love EVERYTHING they do!!!!!!" <swoon, drool>).
STOP LISTENING TO MAIDEN! Go do something more "constructive". Go rob a
bank, or fiddle old ladies out of their pensions, or something. If Maiden
piss you off SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much, then why bother with them? Go listen to
Coal Chamber or Korn. Better still, listen to Alice Coopers #1 ripp off
Marilyn Manson. I don't love everything that Maiden do. I like what appeals
to me. Your posts don't.
>Your choice. Free-will, enjoyment of music you LIKE, or you can stand in
>line for the next piece of shit Maiden album, ready to hand your $ out like
>a well-trained little animal.
Well, like I've said. I'll listen to what I want. I don't stop you. Do you
think you could stop me listening to Dream Theater? Iron Maiden?
NO. Fuck Off.
Tony Szablowski
<01be322c$8640dc20$f493c898@vanguard>...
Significant Pickle was sitting on the shitter, espousing to the
masses:
>Why does Maiden suck now?
>Regardless of whether or not you think their new stuff is "bad", I've
>noticed that >no< rational human being on this ng has said anything
>better than "the new stuff is not anywhere near as good as the old,
>but it's okay".
Bullspit.
There's been a lot of msgs from people who've posted valid opinions
why they think Maiden sucks these days. Most of it is because of 3
main reasons: (1) Metal has lost it's popularity. It's a big
multi-headed beast and the unity among bands isn't there either like
in the old days. Divided we stand.......(2) Maiden, the band, has
lost it's fire, hunger, and possibly Steve's well has finally run dry
because of those losses. Could be age has a lot to do with it. Time
to start looking elsewhere for that hunger. Example: look at the
ages of the guys in Bruce's band, with the obvious exception of Bruce
and H.
>Why does Maiden keep releasing the new "okay" stuff? Because >you
fucking BUY it. Ever wonder why stuff that sounds closer to the
>mainstream SUCKS?
You go fucking buy it, guy. I sure as shit haven't.
>Cos the 'artists' realize that they don't HAVE to put in the effort
to
>make good music as long as there are sheep who will buy every
>fucking thing with their label on it. Why put in the effort, when
sales >are guaranteed?
Sales are never guaranteed and if you think so, you're living in a
Dreamstate.(<~~~hey Pat!<G>) Sales are generally a little better
these days because of the world's ways making it possible of jamming
everything down people's throats. People have the right to choose
who they want to listen to. I don't like most of the songs Maiden has
released since 7th Son. I've looked elsewhere to satisfy my
sophonsification and I'm happier for it.
--
Regards,
Tony
Tony Szablowski
>Give me a fuckin' break, I find it hard to believe that Maiden is
>hard up for cash, hard up for new song ideas, yes, but I'm pretty
>sure they've got plenty of money.
I find it hard to believe that you think they're rolling in dough.
--
Regards,
Tony
Significant Pickle
<767na9$b15$1...@news2.xs4all.nl>...
>
> Significant Pickle heeft geschreven in bericht
> >It's been awhile since I (trolled.....er...lurked :) on this ng, and
it's
> >basically the same. So, a new thread..new topic.
> >
> >
> >Regardless of whether or not you think their new stuff is "bad", I've
> >noticed that >no< rational human being on this ng has said anything
better
> >than "the new stuff is not anywhere near as good as the old, but it's
> >okay".
> >
fucking
> >BUY it.
>
make
> music. If it's all about the money for Maiden then why do you think that
> they released four studio albums that sound completely different from
what
> made them famous (NOTB through 7th Son stuff)? If they wanted to make
money,
> they would record a Number of the Beast part 2, because every Maiden fan
> (and probably every metal fan), old or new, would buy it.
I never said it was "all about the money" for them. Stop making
assumptions.
The point: as long as they are "guaranteed" money (ie. have a steady sales
channel.....which they do), they need not create the quality music they
used to.
You think Steve wouldn't enjoy creating an album with the quality of Piece
of Mind more than what he's done in the last 10 years?
> > Ever wonder why stuff that sounds closer to the mainstream SUCKS?
> >Cos the 'artists' realize that they don't HAVE to put in the effort to
> >make good music as long as there are sheep who will buy every fucking
thing
> >with their label on it. Why put in the effort, when sales are
guaranteed?
> > Faltering sales still equals profit on the scale of Maiden, and you
know
> >what?
> >
> >Their next album is going to be WORSE.
>
> well, we'll just have to wait and see then.
>
> >And you're going to BUY it. Like a good little consumer.
>
> Wrong. I'm going to listen to it, and if I like what I hear, I'll buy it.
> that's the way it has always been with me.
Fair enough.
(note: this comment applies to the numerous "as long as it's Maiden it's
GOOD" posters on this ng).
So far, you're the only one who hasn't gotten defensive about my
"accusation".
> >So, a solution: quit being such a lying sack-of-shit, and excersize
some
> >of that thing you have they call "free-will". Don't enjoy the music too
> >much? There are only about a BILLION really good metal bands in the
vein
> >of Maiden (and many I dare say better) that you could listen to.
>
> I had a feeling this was going to be a promotion for other bands.
Promotion?
> >"But I don't see any good metal on MTV....". Solution: stop letting
the
> >media spoonfeed you whatever they decide you should like. Get a mind
of
> >your own, and buy what you LIKE!
>
> You think most people here are stupid, and let the media decide for them?
> you're wrong. How many times have you seen Maiden on mtv lately? none,
> probably. Why o why do these people here then still listen to Maiden,
even
> though they aren't popular anymore? because they can think for themselves
> and decide what they like.
If you insist.
When most of us who like quality metal (yes, there ARE alot of us here)
stopped liking Maiden's new stuff, we got OTHER music that we liked better.
"Letting the media decide what you get" implies that one makes their choice
based on a handful of spoonfed choices.
Someone who likes new Maiden "cos it's better than the radio stuff"
excersizes how much more free-will than an MTV sheep?
> >Your choice. Free-will, enjoyment of music you LIKE, or you can stand
in
> >line for the next piece of shit Maiden album, ready to hand your $ out
like
> >a well-trained little animal.
>
> O and you think you're so smart and so much better, just because you
don't
> like Maiden anymore and found some other bands that you like. '
Why must it always be assumed that when a post like this is made, that it
is a superiority complex motivated?
How about addressing the issue, not the person? (this does not necessarily
apply to you quite so much).
> > E.
>
>
> even afraid to put your own name on it? how pathetic....
<shrug> If it makes you feel good to call me a coward for this, so be it.
Significant Pickle
<768ir6$p7f$9...@newnews.global.net.uk>...
> You have come to this NG with the wrong attitude.
Really? You've got something to discuss now....
> Maybe you should thinkabout what you are saying.
Believe me, I've thought long and hard about the approach of this post.
> By all means, stay, as you could be the new
> newsgroup arsehole who we can all flame "when we're feeling down
depressed
> and lonely".
That would be pathetic.
> Most people on this NG buy the music they like. You think that we are all
> sheep. Your "Maiden sucks coz I say so" attitude doesn't appeal to me,
and I
> dare say that most people on this NG don't like it either.
Pretend the post was written by a machine.
Now, strip away all the flames and bullshit, and the post still stands.
How would you reply if there wasn't a personality (ego) issue involved?
samiam
remember correctly) for the
wealthiest people in England.
-samiam
Tony Szablowski wrote in message
<768q6c$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
Significant Pickle
> Significant Pickle wrote in message
<01be322c$8640dc20$f493c898@vanguard>...
>
>
Perhaps. But not entirely true. NPFTD and FOTD were sub-standard too,
with heavy songwriting contributions from Bruce (and take a look at the
quality difference between Accident of Birth and those two!)
> <Part of post cut>
>
> >Their next album is going to be WORSE.
>
> I agree! Top shit. Steaming shit.
>
> >And you're going to BUY it. Like a good little consumer.
>
> Nononononononononononono. I won't buy the pissing thing. I might listen
to
> it, but buy the pile of wank?
Fair enough. So far, not defensive...until.......
> >So, a solution: quit being such a lying sack-of-shit, and excersize
some
> >of that thing you have they call "free-will". Don't enjoy the music too
> >much? There are only about a BILLION really good metal bands in the
vein
> >of Maiden (and many I dare say better) that you could listen to.
>
> Hey, I'm not a "lying sack-of-shit". And if I didn't exercise "free-will"
> you doped up moron, I'd be listening to shit like Robbie Williams, like
most
> of the people I know.
Said the Marilyn Manson fanatic: "I'm not a sheep, or I'd be listening to
crap like Hanson!"
Before you get defensive, just think about it first. Believe it or not,
nothing about this post was a personal attack.
> >"But I don't see any good metal on MTV....". Solution: stop letting
the
> >media spoonfeed you whatever they decide you should like. Get a mind
of
> >your own, and buy what you LIKE! Don't sit on your ass waiting for the
> >next maiden album to give your life meaning....get it yourself! You're
on
> >the net...go read some METAL sites (www.chedsey.com,
>
> I don't sit on your ass waiting for the next maiden album to give my life
> meaning. I listen to Bruce Dickinson. Maybe you should.
I do. Chemical Wedding is okay....I >loved< AoB.
> >Discover BETTER music that you will LIKE more!
>
> Hey, gonad face, if I listened to YOUR type of music, I wouldn't be
> exercising "free-will" that you want us all to do. YOU LISTEN TO YOUR
SHIT,
> I'LL LISTEN TO MINE. And your sorry ass isn't going to change my views.
Where in my post did I ask you to listen to MY type of music?
Dishonest personal attack. Shame on you.
> >It's not rocket science. And guess what? When Maiden realizes they
can't
> >get away with pawning the shit they do nowadays, they'll either play
better
> >music or QUIT! And the only people that would disappoint are the sheep
> >who might as well be listening to Steve Harris' farts anyways ("as long
as
> >it's Maiden! I love EVERYTHING they do!!!!!!" <swoon, drool>).
>
> STOP LISTENING TO MAIDEN!
Uh, a hearfelt "fuck you" to this. What makes you think I do?
> Go do something more "constructive". Go rob a
> bank, or fiddle old ladies out of their pensions, or something. If Maiden
> piss you off SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much, then why bother with them?
Did you see the title of the post?
All these personal attacks..
> Go listen to
> Coal Chamber or Korn. Better still, listen to Alice Coopers #1 ripp off
> Marilyn Manson. I don't love everything that Maiden do. I like what
appeals
> to me. Your posts don't.
Classic canned response. "If you don't agree with me, go listen to
(shitty band X)!".
> >Your choice. Free-will, enjoyment of music you LIKE, or you can stand
in
> >line for the next piece of shit Maiden album, ready to hand your $ out
like
> >a well-trained little animal.
>
>
> Well, like I've said. I'll listen to what I want. I don't stop you. Do
you
> think you could stop me listening to Dream Theater? Iron Maiden?
> NO. Fuck Off.
Defensive.
Where did I say I want you to stop listening to Dream Theatre? Iron
Maiden?
"Fight for quality" is the title of this post.
You're attacking me, not the post.
Significant Pickle
<768q4c$t...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
> Significant Pickle wrote in message
> <01be322c$8640dc20$f493c898@vanguard>...
>
> masses:
>
> >noticed that >no< rational human being on this ng has said anything
> >better than "the new stuff is not anywhere near as good as the old,
> >but it's okay".
>
>
>
> There's been a lot of msgs from people who've posted valid opinions
> why they think Maiden sucks these days. Most of it is because of 3
> main reasons: (1) Metal has lost it's popularity. It's a big
> multi-headed beast and the unity among bands isn't there either like
> in the old days. Divided we stand.......(2) Maiden, the band, has
> lost it's fire, hunger, and possibly Steve's well has finally run dry
> because of those losses. Could be age has a lot to do with it. Time
> to start looking elsewhere for that hunger. Example: look at the
> ages of the guys in Bruce's band, with the obvious exception of Bruce
> and H.
I don't necessarily disagree. But a problem: how does this "disprove"
what I said above?
> >Why does Maiden keep releasing the new "okay" stuff? Because >you
> fucking BUY it. Ever wonder why stuff that sounds closer to the
> >mainstream SUCKS?
>
> You go fucking buy it, guy. I sure as shit haven't.
Why so defensive?
> >Cos the 'artists' realize that they don't HAVE to put in the effort
> to
> >make good music as long as there are sheep who will buy every
> >fucking thing with their label on it. Why put in the effort, when
> sales >are guaranteed?
>
>
> Sales are never guaranteed and if you think so, you're living in a
> Dreamstate.(<~~~hey Pat!<G>) Sales are generally a little better
> these days because of the world's ways making it possible of jamming
> everything down people's throats.
You mean the media? :)
> People have the right to choose
> who they want to listen to. I don't like most of the songs Maiden has
> released since 7th Son. I've looked elsewhere to satisfy my
> sophonsification and I'm happier for it.
So why are you attacking me? We haven't disagreed ONCE yet.
Tony Szablowski
>I don't necessarily disagree. But a problem: how does this
>"disprove" what I said above?
Whah? I offered and appraisal to your question, "Why does Maiden
suck now?" That's such a subjective question that there's no
difinitive answer anyhow. As for the other point in that first
paragraph, there's been people who've said they like the newer stuff
more than the old. There hasn't been many, but there _have_ been, but
you weren't asking for #'s. You haven't seen those posts.
>> You go fucking buy it, guy. I sure as shit haven't.
>
>Why so defensive?
Yeah, I'm defensive. <chuckle>
<SNIP!
>So why are you attacking me? We haven't disagreed ONCE yet.
<g> I'm not attacking you. What we apparently disagree on is the
manner we use to convey our thoughts. You've got some valid points
but your language and abrasiveness is unneeded and makes you sound
like a pissed-off wise-guy who thinks he's gonna let us all in on some
great secret we've all been missing out of. Sure, we've got a lot of
blind followers here, but that's their problem. You don't like thier
posts, just move onto the next msg. I saw some points in your post I
felt like commenting on.
--
Regards,
Tony
T. & M. Van Noggeren
>
> Steve and Co. made the list last year (#6, if I
> remember correctly) for the
> wealthiest people in England.
>
> -samiam
I'm sure he isn't on that list for earnings from the 'X Factor' and
'Virtual XI' albums. He is on that list for the money he has earned
from Maiden's extensive back catalogue.
Regards,
Tony
T. & M. Van Noggeren
> <767na9$b15$1...@news2.xs4all.nl>...
> >
> > Significant Pickle heeft geschreven in bericht
> > <01be322c$8640dc20$f493c898@vanguard>...
> > >
> > >Their next album is going to be WORSE.
> >
> > well, we'll just have to wait and see then.
> >
> > >And you're going to BUY it. Like a good little consumer.
> >
> > Wrong. I'm going to listen to it, and if I like what I hear, I'll buy it.
> > that's the way it has always been with me.
>
> Fair enough.
>
> (note: this comment applies to the numerous "as long as it's Maiden it's
> GOOD" posters on this ng).
>
> So far, you're the only one who hasn't gotten defensive about my
> "accusation".
>
I won't get defensive about your accusation. However as someone who
has mostly 'lurked' this newsgroup for the past 8 months I think you
(Sig Pickle) are way off base to suggest that there are numerous "as
long as it's Maiden it's good" posters on this newsgroup.
There seem to many more posters who are disappointed and disenchanted
with the direction Maiden/Harris are heading with Blaze singing for
the band. Very few seem to be defending the band these days.
...just my perspective!
>
> How about addressing the issue, not the person? (this does not necessarily
> apply to you quite so much).
That's exactly what I've done.
Regards,
Tony
D.P.
Significant Pickle wrote in message <01be322c$8640dc20$f493c898@vanguard>...
>It's been awhile since I (trolled.....er...lurked :) on this ng, and it's
>basically the same. So, a new thread..new topic.
>
>
>noticed that >no< rational human being on this ng has said anything better
>than "the new stuff is not anywhere near as good as the old, but it's
>okay".
>
>BUY it. Ever wonder why stuff that sounds closer to the mainstream SUCKS?
>make good music as long as there are sheep who will buy every fucking thing
>with their label on it. Why put in the effort, when sales are guaranteed?
Yeah I guess I can agree with that, but the main reason that they suck now
(IMO) is that Steve is running out of ideas and needs guys to help him out.
(ie. Bruce & H. Janick and Blaze don't seem to cut it)
But anyways, according to your logic, they could of done that long ago in
the 80s during their popularity peak(releasing shit but getting guaranteed
record sales). But back then they had something to say and now i guess its
already been said. I dont think that i can accuse the guys of selling out.
> Faltering sales still equals profit on the scale of Maiden, and you know
>what?
>Their next album is going to be WORSE.
uhhh now that'll be pretty ugly then.
>And you're going to BUY it. Like a good little consumer.
>
>So, a solution: quit being such a lying sack-of-shit, and excersize some
>of that thing you have they call "free-will". Don't enjoy the music too
>much? There are only about a BILLION really good metal bands in the vein
>of Maiden (and many I dare say better) that you could listen to.
"but, but but.... The singer looks really mean and yells instead of
singing...... and they sing about the devil and they have no melody and
theyre too aggressive"
>"But I don't see any good metal on MTV....". Solution: stop letting the
>media spoonfeed you whatever they decide you should like. Get a mind of
>your own, and buy what you LIKE! Don't sit on your ass waiting for the
>next maiden album to give your life meaning....get it yourself! You're on
>the net...go read some METAL sites (www.chedsey.com, www.eternalfrost.com,
>www.evilmusic.com, the list is endless....). Listen to some MP3's (you
>need WinAmp to read them--keyword search on any major browser will do the
>trick). Discover BETTER music that you will LIKE more!
see.. thats exactly what i did when i got my computer about 1.5 yrs ago and
it was the best decision i ever made.
>It's not rocket science. And guess what? When Maiden realizes they can't
>get away with pawning the shit they do nowadays, they'll either play better
>music or QUIT!
the latter will be their only choice then.
And the only people that would disappoint are the sheep
>who might as well be listening to Steve Harris' farts anyways ("as long as
>it's Maiden! I love EVERYTHING they do!!!!!!" <swoon, drool>).
>
>Your choice. Free-will, enjoyment of music you LIKE, or you can stand in
>line for the next piece of shit Maiden album, ready to hand your $ out like
>a well-trained little animal.
heheh well said
Significant Pickle
<5RUh2.669$Eg3....@news13.ispnews.com>...
laziness".
There's a mild but significant difference.
> >So, a solution: quit being such a lying sack-of-shit, and excersize
some
> >of that thing you have they call "free-will". Don't enjoy the music too
> >much? There are only about a BILLION really good metal bands in the
vein
> >of Maiden (and many I dare say better) that you could listen to.
>
> "but, but but.... The singer looks really mean and yells instead of
> singing...... and they sing about the devil and they have no melody and
> theyre too aggressive"
:)
> >"But I don't see any good metal on MTV....". Solution: stop letting
the
> >media spoonfeed you whatever they decide you should like. Get a mind
of
> >your own, and buy what you LIKE! Don't sit on your ass waiting for the
> >next maiden album to give your life meaning....get it yourself! You're
on
> >the net...go read some METAL sites (www.chedsey.com,
www.eternalfrost.com,
> >www.evilmusic.com, the list is endless....). Listen to some MP3's (you
> >need WinAmp to read them--keyword search on any major browser will do
the
> >trick). Discover BETTER music that you will LIKE more!
>
> see.. thats exactly what i did when i got my computer about 1.5 yrs ago
and
> it was the best decision i ever made.
What other stuff do you listen to?
Interesting how you're the only one so far that has not made a personal
attack instead of addressing the points (altho not with that much content
:).
Also interesting how you didn't get "defensive" at the abrasiveness of the
post (for various reasons).
Commendable.
Significant Pickle
> Significant Pickle wrote in message
> >I don't necessarily disagree. But a problem: how does this
> >"disprove" what I said above?
>
> Whah? I offered and appraisal to your question, "Why does Maiden
> suck now?" That's such a subjective question that there's no
> difinitive answer anyhow. As for the other point in that first
> paragraph, there's been people who've said they like the newer stuff
> more than the old. There hasn't been many, but there _have_ been, but
> you weren't asking for #'s. You haven't seen those posts.
Fair enough. That point (as it stood as a generalization) was unfair then.
> >> You go fucking buy it, guy. I sure as shit haven't.
> >
> >Why so defensive?
>
> Yeah, I'm defensive. <chuckle>
You sure?
(simply replying to that part of the post implies a mild defensiveness.
that's not an attack, just an observation).
> <SNIP!
> >So why are you attacking me? We haven't disagreed ONCE yet.
>
> <g> I'm not attacking you. What we apparently disagree on is the
> manner we use to convey our thoughts. You've got some valid points
> but your language and abrasiveness is unneeded and makes you sound
> like a pissed-off wise-guy who thinks he's gonna let us all in on some
> great secret we've all been missing out of.
Is that your appraisal?
> Sure, we've got a lot of
> blind followers here, but that's their problem. You don't like thier
> posts, just move onto the next msg. I saw some points in your post I
> felt like commenting on.
I think the abrasiveness was quite adequately placed meself. I don't give
a fuck what the reader thinks of me personally, but I'm interested in the
content of the replies.
Also, if you see, the post wasn't a "I don't like sheep posts" whine,
either. It was about Quality in Metal. Something I feel is definetly
worth fighting for.
Hail metal!
D.P.
>>
>> Significant Pickle wrote in message
>> >It's been awhile since I (trolled.....er...lurked :) on this ng, and
>it's
>> >basically the same. So, a new thread..new topic.
>> >
>> >
...but they could have been "artistically lazy" 10 years ago when they were
guaranteed sales-no-matter-what if they wanted to.
And previously you said something to the effect of "they made it now, so
whats the point of trying to make good music" which IMO is a sellout.
Currently, I'm majorly into BM/DM. Shit like Opeth, Immortal, Emperor,
Abigor, Dissection, Cryptopsy, Lux Occulta, At the Gates, Dark Tranquillity
etc...
and I honestly put effort into finding bands that I would like cos i know
that they're out there. Thats what I tell everyone here who complains that
"oh boo hooo metallica sold out, metal is dead, all the new bands suck". I
was like that maybe 2 years ago, but now I have come full circle and its
great to find new music that I love. (my wallet sure as hell doesn't like it
though :)
>
>Interesting how you're the only one so far that has not made a personal
>attack instead of addressing the points (altho not with that much content
>:).
well. its been a long day :) But I basically agree with everything you said
in the original post so it was a lot easier not to make any personal attacks
:)
>Also interesting how you didn't get "defensive" at the abrasiveness of the
>post (for various reasons).
>
>Commendable.
hehe I didn't sense any hostility, and I've read your posts in the death
metal ng previously so I know where you're coming from.
Darek
Significant Pickle
> >> Significant Pickle wrote in message
> ><01be322c$8640dc20$f493c898@vanguard>...
> >
> >laziness".
> >There's a mild but significant difference.
>
> ...but they could have been "artistically lazy" 10 years ago when they
were
> guaranteed sales-no-matter-what if they wanted to.
> And previously you said something to the effect of "they made it now, so
> whats the point of trying to make good music" which IMO is a sellout.
seen the fruits of their sub-par labors are not decreased significantly
enough to drive them to bankruptcy, so their laziness will continue unless
you cast a dollar vote for quality!"
Come to think of it, it sounds rather like propanda ;).....
> >What other stuff do you listen to?
>
>
> Currently, I'm majorly into BM/DM. Shit like Opeth, Immortal, Emperor,
> Abigor, Dissection, Cryptopsy, Lux Occulta, At the Gates, Dark
Tranquillity
> etc...
> and I honestly put effort into finding bands that I would like cos i know
> that they're out there. Thats what I tell everyone here who complains
that
> "oh boo hooo metallica sold out, metal is dead, all the new bands suck".
I
> was like that maybe 2 years ago, but now I have come full circle and its
> great to find new music that I love. (my wallet sure as hell doesn't like
it
> though :)
Questions:
1) I haven't heard Lux Occulta yet? Are there similar sounding bands?
2) What do you think of Obituary?
> >Interesting how you're the only one so far that has not made a personal
> >attack instead of addressing the points (altho not with that much
content
> >:).
>
> well. its been a long day :) But I basically agree with everything you
said
> in the original post so it was a lot easier not to make any personal
attacks
> :)
That's true. Nothing more complicated than perception....
(hint: which is why I'm so "abrasive" on this ng. Cuts through the
bullshit nice and clean)
> >Also interesting how you didn't get "defensive" at the abrasiveness of
the
> >post (for various reasons).
> >
> >Commendable.
>
> hehe I didn't sense any hostility, and I've read your posts in the death
> metal ng previously so I know where you're coming from.
And here I thought you were being objective!
Well, fuck you then :)
Curtis Rea
>> >laziness".
>> >There's a mild but significant difference.
>>
>> ...but they could have been "artistically lazy" 10 years ago when they
>were
>> guaranteed sales-no-matter-what if they wanted to.
>> And previously you said something to the effect of "they made it now, so
>> whats the point of trying to make good music" which IMO is a sellout.
>
>A misinterpretation (or bad phrasing on my part): I meant to say "they've
>seen the fruits of their sub-par labors are not decreased significantly
>enough to drive them to bankruptcy, so their laziness will continue unless
>you cast a dollar vote for quality!"
I really find this hard to believe. Sure, Steve's songwriting has changed
over the years (and some like it some don't), but to say Maiden is just
releasing music for the sake of releasing it or for the money is wrong. I
think Maiden has more integrity than that. I believe that Steve would only
release music that he is proud of. Usually the only time bands get lazy and
release music only for money (couldn't think of a better word) is when the
record company is forcing a release. An album that comes to mind is Van
Halen's Diver Down. While I don't mind this album, do you think it would
ever have been released if Warner Bros. hadn't demanded an album that year?
Curtis
D.P.
Significant Pickle wrote in message <01be32f7$1bcbbb00$2e8d94d1@vanguard>...
>D.P. <le...@icom.ca> wrote in article
><xWZh2.225$jb1....@news12.ispnews.com>...
>> >> Significant Pickle wrote in message
>> ><01be322c$8640dc20$f493c898@vanguard>...
>> >
>> >laziness".
>> >There's a mild but significant difference.
>>
>> ...but they could have been "artistically lazy" 10 years ago when they
>were
>> guaranteed sales-no-matter-what if they wanted to.
>> And previously you said something to the effect of "they made it now, so
>> whats the point of trying to make good music" which IMO is a sellout.
>
>A misinterpretation (or bad phrasing on my part): I meant to say "they've
>seen the fruits of their sub-par labors are not decreased significantly
>enough to drive them to bankruptcy, so their laziness will continue unless
>you cast a dollar vote for quality!"
>
heheh well put
>> >What other stuff do you listen to?
>>
>>
>> Currently, I'm majorly into BM/DM. Shit like Opeth, Immortal, Emperor,
>> Abigor, Dissection, Cryptopsy, Lux Occulta, At the Gates, Dark
>Tranquillity
>> etc...
>> and I honestly put effort into finding bands that I would like cos i know
>> that they're out there. Thats what I tell everyone here who complains
>that
>> "oh boo hooo metallica sold out, metal is dead, all the new bands suck".
>I
>> was like that maybe 2 years ago, but now I have come full circle and its
>> great to find new music that I love. (my wallet sure as hell doesn't like
>it
>> though :)
>
>Questions:
>
>1) I haven't heard Lux Occulta yet? Are there similar sounding bands?
I only have their second album right now, but I would call them "melodic
doom
black metal" somewhat in the vein of My Dying Bride. Lots of folk melodies,
keyboards, flutes etc..
>2) What do you think of Obituary?
I haven't too much of their stuff, but I probably wouldn't like it since I'm
not into American Death Metal. (with some exceptions)
>> >Interesting how you're the only one so far that has not made a personal
>> >attack instead of addressing the points (altho not with that much
>content
>> >:).
>>
>> well. its been a long day :) But I basically agree with everything you
>said
>> in the original post so it was a lot easier not to make any personal
>attacks
>> :)
>
>That's true. Nothing more complicated than perception....
>
>(hint: which is why I'm so "abrasive" on this ng. Cuts through the
>bullshit nice and clean)
>> >Also interesting how you didn't get "defensive" at the abrasiveness of
>the
>> >post (for various reasons).
>> >
>> >Commendable.
>>
>> hehe I didn't sense any hostility, and I've read your posts in the death
>> metal ng previously so I know where you're coming from.
>
>And here I thought you were being objective!
>
>Well, fuck you then :)
heheh I was...(somewhat)
Darek
Tom Fletcher
>Said the Marilyn Manson fanatic: "I'm not a sheep, or I'd be listening to
>crap like Hanson!"
>
You seem to be assuming that because I like some of Maidens work, I am a
sheep? Come on Mr. Pickle! Give me a break!!
>Before you get defensive, just think about it first. Believe it or not,
>nothing about this post was a personal attack.
>
Really? Do you think so? The feeling I got was that you were calling us all
sheep! And you voiced your opinions in such a fahion that forced me to
believe that "we are not worthy. We should not listen to Maiden." You may
not have meant this in your post, but your attitude any way with words put
this idea into my head.
>> I don't sit on your ass waiting for the next maiden album to give my life
>> meaning. I listen to Bruce Dickinson. Maybe you should.
>
<SNIP>
>Where in my post did I ask you to listen to MY type of music?
When you said we should find BETTER music that we will enjoy more. Are you
saying that we all HAVE to rush out to the nearest record store and start
buying "better" music?
QUESTION : What "Significant Pickle" do you class as "BETTER" music? I
listen to Maiden, Dream Theater, Bruce, and many bands such as Deep Purple,
Led Zeppelin. What is "BETTER" music to this? You are obviously going to be
bi-ast and quote a list of YOUR fave bands.
>Dishonest personal attack. Shame on you.
No shame on me, it meant nothing. Maybe because it wasn't dishonest.
>> >It's not rocket science. And guess what? When Maiden realizes they
>can't
>> >get away with pawning the shit they do nowadays, they'll either play
>better
>> >music or QUIT! And the only people that would disappoint are the sheep
>> >who might as well be listening to Steve Harris' farts anyways ("as long
>as
>> >it's Maiden! I love EVERYTHING they do!!!!!!" <swoon, drool>).
>>
>> STOP LISTENING TO MAIDEN!
>
>Uh, a hearfelt "fuck you" to this. What makes you think I do?
>
Fuck to you too. If you snoop around the Maiden newsgroup, I thought you may
have had something to share with us because you listened to them. Obviously
I am wrong.
<SNIP>
>Did you see the title of the post?
>All these personal attacks..
>
Oh dear, I do apologize. Then I must be punished! Hahahaha! Don't make me
laugh! I was stating the point that maybe you should do something else apart
from trying to get up many people noses on this NG.
>> Go listen to
>> Coal Chamber or Korn. Better still, listen to Alice Coopers #1 ripp off
>> Marilyn Manson. I don't love everything that Maiden do. I like what
>appeals
>> to me. Your posts don't.
>
>Classic canned response. "If you don't agree with me, go listen to
>(shitty band X)!".
>
Well, I think its a fair comment. If I listened to your music because you
do, would this be free-will? I like listening to Maiden, and Bruce, and
Theater, and Zeppelin, and Purple, and others. I think this IS free will!
Nearly everyone I know doesn't listen to Maiden, or anything I listen to!
>> >Your choice. Free-will, enjoyment of music you LIKE, or you can stand
>in
>> >line for the next piece of shit Maiden album, ready to hand your $ out
>like
>> >a well-trained little animal.
>>
>>
>> Well, like I've said. I'll listen to what I want. I don't stop you. Do
>you
>> think you could stop me listening to Dream Theater? Iron Maiden?
>> NO. Fuck Off.
>
>Defensive.
>Where did I say I want you to stop listening to Dream Theatre? Iron
>Maiden?
>
You never said that you want me to stop listening to this, but your original
post seemed to state "I would like everyone NOT to like Maiden" And your
comments on free will seemed to state that everyone on this NG is a sheep
for listening to ANYTHING maiden-related.
POINT - You obviously think that we all like Blaze on this NG, and we all
like TXF, and VXI? Well, everyone is an INDIVIDUAL. Some have different
views which clash with mine. Do I cut them down? NO. I would NEVER try to
change anyones musical opinions.
>"Fight for quality" is the title of this post.
What's to say Maiden isn't quality?
>You're attacking me, not the post.
Good. You deserve it.
Maybe now Pickle you will leave us in peace. We have opinions which clash
with yours. Do we hang around your fave bands NG, and post "Fight for
quality, this band is producing shit?" Well, I don't.
Tony Szablowski
<SNIP!!>
>Interesting how you're the only one so far that has not made a
>much content :).
You're defensive, probably overly so, if you feel I've attacked you
in any way. If you can't handle constructive criticism you probably
won't last long on any NG where people will present valid arguments
against your statements. And that's just about every one.
--
Regards,
Tony
Tony Szablowski
<SNIP!>
>Also, if you see, the post wasn't a "I don't like sheep posts" whine,
>either. It was about Quality in Metal. Something I feel is
definetly
>worth fighting for.
>Hail metal!
It sounded like a little of both, actually. But, I agree that if
Maiden fans(any fan of any band, really) keep buying the newest
Maiden album simply because it _is_ the newest Maiden album, they're
fooling themselves, especially if they really don't like it.
--
Regards,
Tony
Tom Fletcher
>You're defensive, probably overly so, if you feel I've attacked you
>in any way. If you can't handle constructive criticism you probably
>won't last long on any NG where people will present valid arguments
>against your statements. And that's just about every one.
Good point Tony. I was hoping someone else would say this too. I think I am
going to have to filter this guys messages if he stays. He seems to be a
prick.
Significant Pickle
> >
> >Said the Marilyn Manson fanatic: "I'm not a sheep, or I'd be listening
to
> >crap like Hanson!"
> >
> You seem to be assuming that because I like some of Maidens work, I am a
> sheep? Come on Mr. Pickle! Give me a break!!
That was quite a leap of logic there.
> >Before you get defensive, just think about it first. Believe it or not,
> >nothing about this post was a personal attack.
> >
> Really? Do you think so? The feeling I got was that you were calling us
all
> sheep! And you voiced your opinions in such a fahion that forced me to
> believe that "we are not worthy. We should not listen to Maiden." You may
> not have meant this in your post, but your attitude any way with words
put
> this idea into my head.
So if I'd rephrased the post:
"Excuse me, I know this is only my opinion and I hope it doesn't offend you
all, but I personally feel that Iron Maiden has been doing a slightly less
than optimum creative job on their last few albums....and I think that
maybe perhaps some of you people could possibly be listening to them
because you maybe perhaps haven't found anything you like better. I feel
that possibly if you put in the effort (no offense!) to find such a band,
Iron Maiden would feel obligated to put more effort into their albums to
win you back? JUST MY OPINION!!! DON'T BE OFFENDED!!!!!"
--you'd think differently? It's the exact same >content<, just delivered
in an obsequious (somewhat insipid) manner.
If your answer is yes, then consider that you don't care about content,
only aesthetic delivery.
> >> I don't sit on your ass waiting for the next maiden album to give my
life
> >> meaning. I listen to Bruce Dickinson. Maybe you should.
> >
> <SNIP>
> >Where in my post did I ask you to listen to MY type of music?
>
> When you said we should find BETTER music that we will enjoy more. Are
you
> saying that we all HAVE to rush out to the nearest record store and start
> buying "better" music?
If it makes you feel better to assume that I'm being a Nazi about music, so
be it.
> QUESTION : What "Significant Pickle" do you class as "BETTER" music? I
> listen to Maiden, Dream Theater, Bruce, and many bands such as Deep
Purple,
> Led Zeppelin. What is "BETTER" music to this? You are obviously going to
be
> bi-ast and quote a list of YOUR fave bands.
You're being dishonest.
If you re-read my initial post, the call was for the reader to put in the
effort to find bands he LIKES better! You just saw red and decided to
make a dishonest personal attack based on this (see your post above).
> >Dishonest personal attack. Shame on you.
>
> No shame on me, it meant nothing. Maybe because it wasn't dishonest.
See above.
> >> >It's not rocket science. And guess what? When Maiden realizes they
> >can't
> >> >get away with pawning the shit they do nowadays, they'll either play
> >better
> >> >music or QUIT! And the only people that would disappoint are the
sheep
> >> >who might as well be listening to Steve Harris' farts anyways ("as
long
> >as
> >> >it's Maiden! I love EVERYTHING they do!!!!!!" <swoon, drool>).
> >>
> >> STOP LISTENING TO MAIDEN!
> >
> >Uh, a hearfelt "fuck you" to this. What makes you think I do?
> >
> Fuck to you too. If you snoop around the Maiden newsgroup, I thought you
may
> have had something to share with us because you listened to them.
Obviously
> I am wrong.
Admittedly, I fucked up my initial post. It should have read:
"Uh, a heartfelt 'fuck you' to this. What makes you think I should stop
listening to the Maiden I enjoy?"
So, your response was appropriate. I'll apologize.
> <SNIP>
> >Did you see the title of the post?
> >All these personal attacks..
> >
> Oh dear, I do apologize. Then I must be punished! Hahahaha! Don't make me
> laugh! I was stating the point that maybe you should do something else
apart
> from trying to get up many people noses on this NG.
It's too bad that you think I'm only posting this to "get up many people's
noses".
> >> Go listen to
> >> Coal Chamber or Korn. Better still, listen to Alice Coopers #1 ripp
off
> >> Marilyn Manson. I don't love everything that Maiden do. I like what
> >appeals
> >> to me. Your posts don't.
> >
> >Classic canned response. "If you don't agree with me, go listen to
> >(shitty band X)!".
> >
> Well, I think its a fair comment. If I listened to your music because you
> do, would this be free-will? I like listening to Maiden, and Bruce, and
> Theater, and Zeppelin, and Purple, and others. I think this IS free will!
> Nearly everyone I know doesn't listen to Maiden, or anything I listen to!
Again with the dishonesty.
I never asked you to listen to my bands now, did I?
> >> Well, like I've said. I'll listen to what I want. I don't stop you. Do
> >you
> >> think you could stop me listening to Dream Theater? Iron Maiden?
> >> NO. Fuck Off.
> >
> >Defensive.
> >Where did I say I want you to stop listening to Dream Theatre? Iron
> >Maiden?
> >
> You never said that you want me to stop listening to this, but your
original
> post seemed to state "I would like everyone NOT to like Maiden"
And you realize this is not the point now.
> And your
> comments on free will seemed to state that everyone on this NG is a sheep
> for listening to ANYTHING maiden-related.
Another leap of logic, and very defensive.
> POINT - You obviously think that we all like Blaze on this NG, and we all
> like TXF, and VXI?
Bullshit. And you know it. (In fact, I'll add another 'dishonesty' claim
to this).
> Well, everyone is an INDIVIDUAL. Some have different
> views which clash with mine. Do I cut them down? NO. I would NEVER try to
> change anyones musical opinions.
It's "just music" after all, right?
> >"Fight for quality" is the title of this post.
>
> What's to say Maiden isn't quality?
What's to say Spice Girls isn't quality?
We judge quality by an objective "yardstick", in Maiden's case being their
'classic' releases.
> >You're attacking me, not the post.
>
> Good. You deserve it.
Ad hominem, and dishonest. Noted.
> Maybe now Pickle you will leave us in peace. We have opinions which clash
> with yours. Do we hang around your fave bands NG, and post "Fight for
> quality, this band is producing shit?" Well, I don't.
Try the Metallica ng (not my favorite band, but a newsgroup I frequent--god
knows why?). See how often I get defensive when people trash my favorite
band.
Significant Pickle
> Significant Pickle wrote in message <01be32e0$37ee9bc0
> <SNIP!!>
> >Interesting how you're the only one so far that has not made a
> >much content :).
>
> in any way. If you can't handle constructive criticism you probably
> won't last long on any NG where people will present valid arguments
> against your statements. And that's just about every one.
First off, I'd like you to review the responses to my initial post, and
perhaps you'd see why my response at that time was appropriate.
Secondly, if you are going to say that just about everyone has presented a
valid argument against my statements (read: valid >points<, not dishonest
personality attacks), I'd like you to back them up by citing quotes.
If you find some that I've missed or been wrong about, I will gladly
(deservedly) apologize.
Significant Pickle
> Significant Pickle wrote in message
I'll give away a freebie here: my post was >not< to solicit "yeah, you're
right!" de facto agreements. It was to incite discussion about the quality
of Maiden's music (and weed out the one's who can't get past an 'abrasive'
posting style and look at content--which you've gotten past quite
adequately, btw).
Those who are upset by the quality of the music (or "fool themselves into
liking it"--your words) have 2 choices: whine, bitch and complain, or
better themselves by finding something they REALLY enjoy and enriching
their lives for the experience. I was presenting option #2....which was
naturally ignored and misconstrued, but such is communication (that's what
counter-posts and follow-ups are for).
I don't expect many to think I'm anything but a whiner (and frankly, don't
give a fuck)....I'm here for discussion.
Tokus
Significant Pickle heeft geschreven in bericht
>I don't expect many to think I'm anything but a whiner (and frankly, don't
>give a fuck)....I'm here for discussion.
You're here for discussion? the only discussion you take part in is the ones
you start, and when people comment on things, you tell them that's not what
you meant by your post, and say something like "maybe I should have typed...
blablabla".
It looks like you get a kick out of it when you see people responding to
your posts.
cu
Tonnie
T. & M. Van Noggeren
>
> Tom Fletcher <t...@fletch05.globalnet.co.uk> wrote in article
> <76bi36$9vg$1...@newnews.global.net.uk>...
> > >
>
> > Maybe now Pickle you will leave us in peace. We have opinions which clash
> > with yours. Do we hang around your fave bands NG, and post "Fight for
> > quality, this band is producing shit?" Well, I don't.
>
> Try the Metallica ng (not my favorite band, but a newsgroup I frequent--god
> knows why?).
Perhaps so you can type the word 'sheep' 150 times per day?
> See how often I get defensive when people trash my favorite
> band.
And your favourite band is.....?
Regards,
Tony
Significant Pickle
> >in any way. If you can't handle constructive criticism you probably
> >won't last long on any NG where people will present valid arguments
> >against your statements. And that's just about every one.
>
am
> going to have to filter this guys messages if he stays. He seems to be a
> prick.
That's a copout.
Significant Pickle
<368A38...@MNSi.Net>...
> Significant Pickle wrote:
> >
> > Tom Fletcher <t...@fletch05.globalnet.co.uk> wrote in article
> > <76bi36$9vg$1...@newnews.global.net.uk>...
> > > >
> >
clash
> > > with yours. Do we hang around your fave bands NG, and post "Fight for
> > > quality, this band is producing shit?" Well, I don't.
> >
> > Try the Metallica ng (not my favorite band, but a newsgroup I
frequent--god
> > knows why?).
>
That's pretty dishonest.
> > See how often I get defensive when people trash my favorite
> > band.
>
> And your favourite band is.....?
Hmmm. Right now, it's probably Blind Guardian.
There is a school of thought that BG is "mindblowingly pretentious"
orchestrated metal. And, to people who don't like 'busy music' (ie: the
type where several passages/dynamics are going on at once), there's nothing
wrong with that opinion.
Someone who just says "BG sucks and you're gay" I ignore, unless there was
content to the post somewhere.
Significant Pickle
>
> Significant Pickle heeft geschreven in bericht
> <01be33c5$4dd60c80$5a8d94d1@vanguard>...
> >I don't expect many to think I'm anything but a whiner (and frankly,
don't
> >give a fuck)....I'm here for discussion.
>
> You're here for discussion? the only discussion you take part in is the
ones
> you start
Dishonest. See the "Accident of Birth" threads.
>, and when people comment on things, you tell them that's not what
> you meant by your post, and say something like "maybe I should have
typed...
> blablabla".
"When people comment on things"--that's a sign that you're not reading
carefully. I've supplied plenty of answers to solid responses (the "fuck
you...you think you're so cool" personality attack responses with no
content I've ignored, or pointed out for example sakes).
> It looks like you get a kick out of it when you see people responding to
> your posts.
(as I've said to others): If it pleases you to think this, I don't mind
nor particularly care [altho it'd be dishonest to say I'm not somewhat
disappointed]. It does not contribute to the "discussion", is an
observation without backup (ie: quotations, so I can respond to it), or
otherwise.
Hint: take account of how many times I've "flamed" any particular poster.
Tom Fletcher
>right!" de facto agreements. It was to incite discussion about the quality
>of Maiden's music (and weed out the one's who can't get past an 'abrasive'
>posting style and look at content--which you've gotten past quite
>adequately, btw).
>
>Those who are upset by the quality of the music (or "fool themselves into
>liking it"--your words) have 2 choices: whine, bitch and complain, or
How do you know everyone fools themselves into liking the music? Some people
genuinely like TXF, VXI, even if you do not. Believe me, I've read
everything that has been coming to this NG for almost two years
>better themselves by finding something they REALLY enjoy and enriching
>their lives for the experience. I was presenting option #2....which was
>naturally ignored and misconstrued, but such is communication (that's what
>counter-posts and follow-ups are for).
Most people will "better" themselves and find new styles of music they like.
Given time, we all will. I certainly have in the past.
>I don't expect many to think I'm anything but a whiner (and frankly, don't
>give a fuck)....I'm here for discussion.
I don't give a flying fuck to be honest. I am here for discussion, and
always have been. But when there are people like you accusing me of making
"dishonest, personal attacks" on to you (see previous threads) when they are
my HONEST opinions, that is what tells me to put you on my kill-file list.
Tom Fletcher
you can cause a bit of stir on the newsgroup? Not really to us, but to some
four year olds out there (Pickle) who still need to grow up, it is great
fun!
Tokus wrote in message <76d2p5$4e3$8...@news2.xs4all.nl>...
>
>Significant Pickle heeft geschreven in bericht
><01be33c5$4dd60c80$5a8d94d1@vanguard>...
>>I don't expect many to think I'm anything but a whiner (and frankly, don't
>>give a fuck)....I'm here for discussion.
>
>
>You're here for discussion? the only discussion you take part in is the
ones
>you start, and when people comment on things, you tell them that's not what
>you meant by your post, and say something like "maybe I should have
typed...
>blablabla".
>It looks like you get a kick out of it when you see people responding to
>your posts.
>
>cu
>Tonnie
>
>
Tom Fletcher
>valid argument against my statements (read: valid >points<, not dishonest
>personality attacks), I'd like you to back them up by citing quotes.
>
Hey Pickle, I have a lot of valid points which I could use against your
argument, that are not personal dishonest attacks. Why do you continue to
think that when we type replies to your post, they are always "dishonest-
peronal attacks"? And then, when the argument doesn't go your way, you
reckon you fucked up on your original post. Then you say "perhaps I should
have said.........."
Well, until you know what you are typing, piss off.
Tom Fletcher
>> with yours. Do we hang around your fave bands NG, and post "Fight for
>> quality, this band is producing shit?" Well, I don't.
>
>Try the Metallica ng (not my favorite band, but a newsgroup I frequent--god
>knows why?). See how often I get defensive when people trash my favorite
>band.
I too like Metallica, but I don't like their last two albums (Wait before
you flame me for being "dis-honest" or "defensive"). Given time I guarentee
I will find another style of music/ band that I will enjoy more than Maiden.
I may be wrong, but your post seems to state you want this to happen now.
Well, given time it WILL. I admit, there are plenty more decent bands out
there, even better than Maiden. How do I judge them on how good they are?
Given time I will find a way.
Until then Pickle, I won't take any of your shit.
I'll say it for you: "You have made a dishonest, personal attack"
There, saved you a valuable few seconds of your poor excuse for a life.
Significant Pickle
> >I'll give away a freebie here: my post was >not< to solicit "yeah,
you're
> >right!" de facto agreements. It was to incite discussion about the
quality
> >of Maiden's music (and weed out the one's who can't get past an
'abrasive'
> >posting style and look at content--which you've gotten past quite
> >adequately, btw).
> >
> >Those who are upset by the quality of the music (or "fool themselves
into
> >liking it"--your words) have 2 choices: whine, bitch and complain, or
>
> How do you know everyone fools themselves into liking the music?
That is dishonest, and you KNOW it. If you read my reply to Tony S., you'd
see that I am >not< making this assertion.
Which part of "those who are upset by...." implies that I think everyone is
that way? Or are you just reading what you want to read?
Note to Tony S: >This< is an example of a dishonest personality attack,
with no regard for content. And if you re-read the responses to my posts,
you'll find that a GOOD number are like this.
> Some people
> genuinely like TXF, VXI, even if you do not.
More power to them.
> Believe me, I've read
> everything that has been coming to this NG for almost two years
Well, "everything" is (that bad word again), but you're point is made.
However, you keep reading stuff into my posts that is not there, and
"calling" me on it.
If it makes you feel better, pretend my posts are written by a machine.
> >better themselves by finding something they REALLY enjoy and enriching
> >their lives for the experience. I was presenting option #2....which
was
> >naturally ignored and misconstrued, but such is communication (that's
what
> >counter-posts and follow-ups are for).
>
> Most people will "better" themselves and find new styles of music they
like.
> Given time, we all will. I certainly have in the past.
If I believed that, I would not post this.
Apparently we disagree on this point, and I'd be happy to discuss it.
> >I don't expect many to think I'm anything but a whiner (and frankly,
don't
> >give a fuck)....I'm here for discussion.
>
> I don't give a flying fuck to be honest.
That much is obvious.
(don't even >think< of calling that a "flame": I've provided plenty of
backup).
> I am here for discussion, and
> always have been. But when there are people like you accusing me of
making
> "dishonest, personal attacks" on to you (see previous threads):
Tom Fletcher (posted today):
<<I think Pickle is really here to piss people off. Isn't it SO exciting
when
you can cause a bit of stir on the newsgroup? Not really to us, but to some
four year olds out there (Pickle) who still need to grow up, it is great
fun!>>
There's some backup (content) to why I call you 'dishonest'. Can you do
the same for me?
> when they are
> my HONEST opinions, that is what tells me to put you on my kill-file
list.
If you killfile my posts without responding to the content in this one, you
are a liar (see: "I'm here for discussion"--you).
Don't like my posting style? Your problem...but you can comfort yourself
with "This guy is a total fucking ASSHOLE" thoughts (and heh, it's probably
true). But I'm not asking you to be my buddy now, am I?
Significant Pickle
> >Secondly, if you are going to say that just about everyone has presented
a
> >valid argument against my statements (read: valid >points<, not
dishonest
> >personality attacks), I'd like you to back them up by citing quotes.
> >
> Hey Pickle, I have a lot of valid points which I could use against your
> argument, that are not personal dishonest attacks.
A) I asked for backup by 'citing quotes'. Something I can respond to.
Reasonable?
B) Those that you have made, I've responded to. A stroll through
Deja-News will show that.
> Why do you continue to
> think that when we type replies to your post, they are always "dishonest-
> peronal attacks"? And then, when the argument doesn't go your way, you
> reckon you fucked up on your original post. Then you say "perhaps I
should
> have said.........."
Again with your "always"....generalization.
Read my reply to you in other thread.
"When the argument doesn't go your way": what about this post is an
"argument". What am I trying to win?
And yes, I make mistakes (I've made and apologized for one--AFAICS--thus
far). You're "calling" me on this?
> Well, until you know what you are typing, piss off.
Please tell me what about this response is not a "dishonest personality
attack".
One last freebie: You think I give a fuck about what you think about me?
I point out 'dishonesty' as it is useless for discussion, and only leads to
flame-wars.
Significant Pickle
> >> Maybe now Pickle you will leave us in peace. We have opinions which
clash
> >> with yours. Do we hang around your fave bands NG, and post "Fight for
> >> quality, this band is producing shit?" Well, I don't.
> >
> >Try the Metallica ng (not my favorite band, but a newsgroup I
frequent--god
> >knows why?). See how often I get defensive when people trash my
favorite
> >band.
>
> you flame me for being "dis-honest" or "defensive").
Why would I call you dishonest for that? You're simply being critical--a
>good< thing.
> Given time I guarentee
> I will find another style of music/ band that I will enjoy more than
Maiden.
> I may be wrong, but your post seems to state you want this to happen now.
> Well, given time it WILL. I admit, there are plenty more decent bands out
> there, even better than Maiden. How do I judge them on how good they are?
> Given time I will find a way.
Content! Woohoo! :)
I am not doubting that >you< will eventually find something you enjoy more
(and in case you didn't know, the original "Fight For Quality" post was not
aimed at you specifically!).
I reiterate:
"Those who are disenchanted with the quality of Maiden's music (or those
who 'delude' themselves into liking it out of laziness--this is NOT
everyone, damnit!) have 2 choices: 1) Bitch, complain, continue to
listen. Result: not enjoying the music (the art) to the fullest. 2) Get
off their ass and find something they truly enjoy. Result: quality of
enjoyment (and life) raised."
I bother writing posts like this in this message board because:
A) I love Maiden, and hate to see them on the road they are on now (hence
my not supporting them for the last 7 years).
B) Because Maiden fans are, on average, "brighter" than the mainstream, and
a kick-in-the-ass post like this is more likely to produce results, not
defensiveness and dismissal.
[Content Alert!]
I make an example out of you, because:
A) For the most part, your posts are an attack. There is content (more now
than before, granted)....but pointing out your insubstantiated attacks
makes a point for the readers here.
B) You rarely reply to the content in my posts, choosing to make generalist
assumptions. I believe I've pointed them out adequately. Feel free to
disagree, but do so with >backup<.
Example A)
> Until then Pickle, I won't take any of your shit.
"Defensiveness"
Example B)
> I'll say it for you: "You have made a dishonest, personal attack"
Mocking, without content to back it up. Nothing about my posts is an
attack on you.
Example C)
> There, saved you a valuable few seconds of your poor excuse for a life.
Personal attack, with no content to respond to. "Flamebait", as they call
it in the UseNet game.
Tokus
Significant Pickle heeft geschreven in bericht
>> You're here for discussion? the only discussion you take part in is the
>ones
>
>Dishonest. See the "Accident of Birth" threads.
o wow, that's two threads then.
>"When people comment on things"--that's a sign that you're not reading
>carefully.
I sure as hell wasn't reading your posts carefully, because you started to
bore mroe me with every post, because they were all in the same way ("Where
did I say this ?" or "what a dishonest personal attack" and stuff like that
in almost every post, at least two
times).
>> It looks like you get a kick out of it when you see people responding to
>> your posts.
>
>(as I've said to others): If it pleases you to think this, I don't mind
<sarcasm> yeah man, I get a hardon from thinking that.... </sarcasm>
cu
Tonnie
Tokus
T. & M. Van Noggeren heeft geschreven in bericht <368A38...@MNSi.Net>...
>Significant Pickle wrote:
>> See how often I get defensive when people trash my favorite
>> band.
Hanson probably.....
cu
Tonnie
T. & M. Van Noggeren
>
> T. & M. Van Noggeren <ton...@MNSi.Net> wrote in article
> <368A38...@MNSi.Net>...
> > Significant Pickle wrote:
> > >
> > > <76bi36$9vg$1...@newnews.global.net.uk>...
> > > > >
> > >
> clash
> > > > with yours. Do we hang around your fave bands NG, and post "Fight for
> > > > quality, this band is producing shit?" Well, I don't.
> > >
> > > Try the Metallica ng (not my favorite band, but a newsgroup I
> frequent--god
> > > knows why?).
> >
>
> That's pretty dishonest.
>
alot of the problems you are having in this newsgroup. I find the
quality of posting in the IM newsgroup to be leaps & bounds beyond the
goofy flames and namecalling that seem to plague the Metallica
newsgroup.
Regards,
Tony
Significant Pickle
> Significant Pickle wrote:
> > > > Try the Metallica ng (not my favorite band, but a newsgroup I
> > frequent--god
> > > > knows why?).
> > >
> >
> > That's pretty dishonest.
> >
> If you can't pick up the sarcasm in my statement then that may explain
> alot of the problems you are having in this newsgroup.
What 'problems'?
> I find the
> quality of posting in the IM newsgroup to be leaps & bounds beyond the
> goofy flames and namecalling that seem to plague the Metallica
> newsgroup.
Fair enough. For the most part, alt....metallica is a shithole, with very
few 'quality' posters.
OTOH, there have been some >damn< good discussions about Metallica, music,
integrity, etc. in general (incl. some of the "sheep" ones).
Significant Pickle
>
> Significant Pickle heeft geschreven in bericht
> <01be3416$293f6d20$ce8e94d1@vanguard>...
> >> You're here for discussion? the only discussion you take part in is
the
> >ones
> >> you start
> >
> >Dishonest. See the "Accident of Birth" threads.
>
> o wow, that's two threads then.
Relevant note: I've been here 3 days.
> >"When people comment on things"--that's a sign that you're not reading
> >carefully.
>
> I sure as hell wasn't reading your posts carefully, because you started
to
> bore mroe me with every post, because they were all in the same way
("Where
> did I say this ?" or "what a dishonest personal attack" and stuff like
that
> in almost every post, at least two
> times).
Let me try to make this simple, so you can understand:
"Where did I say this" is asking for >backup< of a point.
And this bores you. That makes a statement.
This is a caricature/mocking of your last statement: "You bore me, you're
always asking for proof and content, and you keep calling the ones who
don't give it liars/dishonest. That's so repetitive. You bore me."
> >> It looks like you get a kick out of it when you see people responding
to
> >> your posts.
> >
> >(as I've said to others): If it pleases you to think this, I don't mind
>
> <sarcasm> yeah man, I get a hardon from thinking that.... </sarcasm>
Knee-jerk sarcasm is a sign of......defensiveness.
(of course, you'll just see this as a "flame").
Tom Fletcher
>Tom Fletcher (posted today):
>
><<I think Pickle is really here to piss people off. Isn't it SO exciting
>when
>you can cause a bit of stir on the newsgroup? Not really to us, but to some
>four year olds out there (Pickle) who still need to grow up, it is great
>fun!>>
>
>There's some backup (content) to why I call you 'dishonest'. Can you do
>the same for me?
Okay Significant Pickle, you want content and back up, you can have it.
Significant Pickle wrote: (Part of original post)
>So, a solution: quit being such a lying sack-of-shit, and excersize some
>of that thing you have they call "free-will". Don't enjoy the music too
much? There >are only about a BILLION really good metal bands in the vein
of Maiden (and >many I dare say better) that you could listen to.
Good point about the metal bands, but where is YOUR proof that we are lying
sacks of shit? How do you suppose we can exercise free-will if we are not
already? Surely we listen to the music we already do because we like it?
The lying sack of shit part is an attack to the NG>
>Before you get defensive, just think about it first. Believe it or not,
>nothing about this post was a personal attack.
I think calling us lying sacks of shit is rather a personal attack, don't
you?
Significant Pickle wrote in "Discussion" and Defensiveness (was Re:
something else)
>Don't like my posting style? Your problem...but you can comfort yourself
>with "This guy is a total fucking ASSHOLE" thoughts (and heh, it's probably
t>rue). But I'm not asking you to be my buddy now, am I?
How do you know that I can comfort myself with "This guy is a total fucking
ASSHOLE" thoughts? What I think and what I type are two totally different
things.
I would like to see your evidence that suggests this theory is true.
By the way, I do not judge all your posts on this thread. I do not have
anything against you, basically because we are communicating through a piece
of plastic plugged into a piece of metal that is connected to a phone line.
My next point:
Significant Pickle wrote:
> Regardless of whether or not you think their new stuff is "bad", I've
> noticed that >no< rational human being on this ng has said anything
> better than "the new stuff is not anywhere near as good as the old, but
it's
> okay".
There have been some good points made. I have seen a lot better than "the
new stuff is not anywhere near as good as the old, but it's okay". Some
people who have been to this newsgroup like TXF and VXI, and some people
have liked NPFTD.
> Why does Maiden keep releasing the new "okay" stuff? Because you
> fucking BUY it. Ever wonder why stuff that sounds closer to the
mainstream
> SUCKS?
Point : We don't ALL "fucking" buy it
> Cos the 'artists' realize that they don't HAVE to put in the effort
> to make good music as long as there are sheep who will buy every fucking
> thing with their label on it. Why put in the effort, when sales are
> guaranteed?
You seem to assume that we all like everything Maiden related, and we all
hand out our money "like a good little consumer." - in your words.
I feel this is an attack to the people on this newsgroup.
From original post:
>It's not rocket science. And guess what? When Maiden realizes they can't
>get away with pawning the shit they do nowadays, they'll either play better
>music or QUIT!
This is an attack on Maidens recent works. Some people actually like these.
>And the only people that would disappoint are the sheep
>who might as well be listening to Steve Harris' farts anyways ("as long as
>it's Maiden! I love EVERYTHING they do!!!!!!" <swoon, drool>).
Are we all like this? Do you have the evidence that proves ANY ONE OF US a
"sheep", or a blind consumer, whatever words you wish to use?I think you are
wrong to suggest that most people believe"as long as it's Maiden it's good"
>Your choice. Free-will, enjoyment of music you LIKE, or you can stand in
>line for the next piece of shit Maiden album, ready to hand your $ out like
>a well-trained little animal.
Again, an attack to everyone on the newsgroup. Can you prove that we are all
"well-trained little animals" ready to hand out our $. You haven't even seen
most of us in person! Do you think you are smarter than everyone here
because you like the vintage Maiden, but listen to other bands? Very few
people actually come to this newsgroup now who DO like the new Maiden
material. I do not, but the reason I come to this newsgroup is to exchange
ideas, and discuss matters.
>"But I don't see any good metal on MTV....". Solution: stop letting the
>media spoonfeed you whatever they decide you should like. Get a mind of
>your own, and buy what you LIKE!
You obviously assume that the media dominated our lives? They can tell us
what is right and wrong? They tell us what car to drive? What food to eat?
What music to listen to? Do you think we are stupid and cannot make our own
desicions?
This is another attack to the newsgroup. You are saying that the media
spoonfeed us. This is false. Hell, I don't even have MTV, I live in the UK,
and don't have Sky Tv.
Tom Fletcher wrote (in a previous post)
>You have come to this NG with the wrong attitude. Maybe you should think
>about what you are saying.
I don't think I am being dishonest here, do you? You seem to believe by what
you type, that we all praise Iron Maiden because "it's Maiden therefore it's
good"
>Most people on this NG buy the music they like.
I'd say ALL the people on this NG buy the music they like.
>Your "Maiden sucks coz I say so" attitude doesn't appeal to me, and I
>dare say that most people on this NG don't like it either.
I think you have to see it from my point of view here. If I were to go to
your favourite band's newsgroup and post "_______ sucks!! Fight For
Quality!!" and posted something exactly the same as your original post was
to this NG (with the name of the band changed in places, of course) you may
get slightly annoyed.
Significant Pickle replied to Tom Fletcher:
>Classic canned response. "If you don't agree with me, go listen to
>(shitty band X)!".
What is the problem here? I was stating the fact that I will listen to the
music I enjoy. I will find music that appeals to me more in the future, but
for the minute I am more than content with listening to Maiden.
You were stating that we should exercise free-will. I do. And this is an
honest comment. Most of the people I know listen to pop music. I have
exercised more than enough free-will to listen to Maiden, my favourite band
AT THE MOMENT.
>"Fight for quality" is the title of this post.
And what suggests that Maiden isn't quality?
>So if I'd rephrased the post:
>"Excuse me, I know this is only my opinion and I hope it doesn't offend you
>all, but I personally feel that Iron Maiden has been doing a slightly less
>than optimum creative job on their last few albums....and I think that
>maybe perhaps some of you people could possibly be listening to them
>because you maybe perhaps haven't found anything you like better. I feel
>that possibly if you put in the effort (no offense!) to find such a band,
>Iron Maiden would feel obligated to put more effort into their albums to
>win you back? JUST MY OPINION!!! DON'T BE OFFENDED!!!!!"
If you had phrased your post like this in the first place, I may have
thought a LOT differently. Your original post was putting everyone down by
saying we are all "well-trained animals", and "sheep."
THIS is a dishonest comment by YOU!! In your original post! You have come to
a general consclusion that we are blind customers!
>If your answer is yes, then consider that you don't care about content,
>only aesthetic delivery.
I care very much for content, it is just COMMENTS that are made in the post.
Your original DID have comments that put everyone on the newsgroup down.
>> STOP LISTENING TO MAIDEN!
>
>Uh, a hearfelt "fuck you" to this. What makes you think I do?
Your attack here to me is basically you wanting a reply from me.
>Admittedly, I fucked up my initial post. It should have read:
>
>"Uh, a heartfelt 'fuck you' to this. What makes you think I should stop
>listening to the Maiden I enjoy?"
What makes you think we have to listen to different music when we are
content to listen to what we please?
>Content! Woohoo! :)
Sarcasm? Doesn't work with me. Sorry.
>I make an example out of you, because:
>
>A) For the most part, your posts are an attack. There is content (more now
>than before, granted)....but pointing out your insubstantiated attacks
>makes a point for the readers here.
I have attacked you, then it is from the fact you believe we are all
"sheep".
>B) You rarely reply to the content in my posts, choosing to make generalist
>assumptions. I believe I've pointed them out adequately. Feel free to
>disagree, but do so with >backup<.
WRONG! I do not make general assumptions. You have made a general assumption
that we are blind consumers.
I have disagreed with lots of back up. I have not made ANY personal attacks
in this post, agreed?
>Again with your "always"....generalization.
Your generaliztion is that most people on this NG are sheep, like you said
in your original post
>Read my reply to you in other thread.
>"When the argument doesn't go your way": what about this post is an
>"argument". What am I trying to win?
>And yes, I make mistakes (I've made and apologized for one--AFAICS--thus
>far). You're "calling" me on this?
If I apologized for all my replies to you, would this make them alright?
>> Well, until you know what you are typing, piss off.
>Please tell me what about this response is not a "dishonest personality
>attack".
Explain how it IS a "dis-honest" personal attack. Personal maybe, but not
dishonest.
>One last freebie: You think I give a fuck about what you think about me?
>I point out 'dishonesty' as it is useless for discussion, and only leads to
>flame-wars.
I don't want a flame war. I would be interested to know your definition of
"dis-honest". The Concise English Dictionary states it as "Void of honesty;
fraudulent; knavish; perfidious"
How do you know most of my comments are dishonest? I am an individual, and I
think differently to you. Maybe they are dishonest because they do not agree
with you?
I think all this argument boils down to is our differences in replying to
posts. Your original post seemed to cut people down on this NG. Your
comments on bettering ourselves with better music seemed to be saying our
taste of music is shit.
Hell, your title even stated "Maiden Sucks". An attack, if anything.
Well, I hope I have settled my side of this situation. Btw, below is a list
of cutting down statements from your original post.
<SNIPS from Significant Pickle's original post>
>And you're going to BUY it. Like a good little consumer.
>So, a solution: quit being such a lying sack-of-shit, and excersize some
>of that thing you have they call "free-will". Don't enjoy the music too
>much? There are only about a BILLION really good metal bands in the vein
>of Maiden (and many I dare say better) that you could listen to.
>"But I don't see any good metal on MTV....". Solution: stop letting the
>media spoonfeed you whatever they decide you should like. Get a mind of
>your own, and buy what you LIKE! Don't sit on your ass waiting for the
>next maiden album to give your life meaning....get it yourself!
>Your choice. Free-will, enjoyment of music you LIKE, or you can stand in
>line for the next piece of shit Maiden album, ready to hand your $ out like
>a well-trained little animal.
Tom Fletcher
T. & M. Van Noggeren
>
> T. & M. Van Noggeren <ton...@MNSi.Net> wrote in article
> <368A74...@MNSi.Net>...
> > Significant Pickle wrote:
> > > frequent--god
> > > > > knows why?).
> > > >
> > >
> > > That's pretty dishonest.
> > >
> > If you can't pick up the sarcasm in my statement then that may explain
> > alot of the problems you are having in this newsgroup.
>
> What 'problems'?
>
"quality" post approx. 50% of the posts to the IM newsgroup have been
taking issue with something you have posted (either originally or in
reply to someone else).
I respect you enough (from what I've seen you contribute to the Slayer
& Metallica newsgroups) to think that you have not shown up here to be
a troll, so the flack that you are receiving from the IM regulars
would be interpreted as 'problems' by anyone who wished to be a
meaningful, insightful contributor to any newsgroup.
Regards,
Tony
Tokus
Significant Pickle heeft geschreven in bericht
>Let me try to make this simple, so you can understand:
>"Where did I say this" is asking for >backup< of a point.
>
>And this bores you. That makes a statement.
>
>This is a caricature/mocking of your last statement: "You bore me, you're
>always asking for proof and content, and you keep calling the ones who
>don't give it liars/dishonest. That's so repetitive. You bore me."
Ok, to put it in your words: where did I ask you for proof, and where did I
call you a liar?
Man, you been here only 3 days and act like you know it all.
>> <sarcasm> yeah man, I get a hardon from thinking that.... </sarcasm>
>
>Knee-jerk sarcasm is a sign of......defensiveness.
>(of course, you'll just see this as a "flame").
why o why do you think everybody is always defending against you? you must
really like that word, don't you?
defensiveness defensiveness defensiveness defensiveness
cu
Tonnie
Significant Pickle
Tom Fletcher <t...@fletch05.globalnet.co.uk> wrote in article
<76e28e$ob$1...@newnews.global.net.uk>...
> Okay Significant Pickle, you want content and back up, you can have it.
That's all I've ever asked for.
> Significant Pickle wrote: (Part of original post)
>
> >So, a solution: quit being such a lying sack-of-shit, and excersize
some
> >of that thing you have they call "free-will". Don't enjoy the music too
> much? There >are only about a BILLION really good metal bands in the
vein
> of Maiden (and >many I dare say better) that you could listen to.
>
> Good point about the metal bands, but where is YOUR proof that we are
lying
> sacks of shit? How do you suppose we can exercise free-will if we are not
> already? Surely we listen to the music we already do because we like it?
> The lying sack of shit part is an attack to the NG>
"Lying sack of shit"--exaggeration of a point, to make a point. You are
correct, aesthetically there is no difference between this and a flame, but
I will (and have) point out dishonesty in several responses to me. (I do
not want to define "LIAR" entirely in this post yet, but rather show
you--the newsgroup readers--by example after example. It's a complicated
defintion).
Your general question: "Why is your (S. Pickle) posting style so damn
abrasive?"
My simplified answer: Because it gets results.
> >Before you get defensive, just think about it first. Believe it or not,
> >nothing about this post was a personal attack.
>
> I think calling us lying sacks of shit is rather a personal attack, don't
> you?
I'd like you to elaborate on this.
> How do you know that I can comfort myself with "This guy is a total
fucking
> ASSHOLE" thoughts? What I think and what I type are two totally different
> things.
> I would like to see your evidence that suggests this theory is true.
Common behaviour amongst humans: it is more difficult to be objective and
understand another's point of view. It is much easier to villify the ones
you disagree with ("Significant Pickle is just a 4-year old with nothing
better to do than flame people!!!!!!!"), ("Hitler was a fucking evil madman
who killed Jews") than honestly think and consider their perspective.
You may think I have not thought about your perspective. I have....proof:
I've been on the "receiving" end of a series of posts just like this one
myself, and had my 'dishonesty' shown very clearly. Altho it took MANY
different posts.
> By the way, I do not judge all your posts on this thread. I do not have
> anything against you, basically because we are communicating through a
piece
> of plastic plugged into a piece of metal that is connected to a phone
line.
However, my initial post "pissed you off" enough to completely overlook the
content within. Not an attack, this comment, but a relevant point that I
want you to think about.
(hint: there is a VERY definite reason the original post was written the
way it was. Maybe it was a little bit >too< abrasive, perhaps, but I stand
behind it).
> My next point:
>
> Significant Pickle wrote:
> > Regardless of whether or not you think their new stuff is "bad", I've
> > noticed that >no< rational human being on this ng has said anything
> > better than "the new stuff is not anywhere near as good as the old, but
> it's
> > okay".
>
> There have been some good points made. I have seen a lot better than "the
> new stuff is not anywhere near as good as the old, but it's okay". Some
> people who have been to this newsgroup like TXF and VXI, and some people
> have liked NPFTD.
Context time here: If someone made a blanket statement, "You're all
animal-fuckers who fuck your mothers too!" on this newsgroup, you're
response would be simply "go away, idiot", or something, right? Why,
because you KNOW that it does not apply to you, are secure in the fact that
it does not apply to you, and dismiss the poster as a "flamer".
Why do you suppose, then, that so many people vehemently made a point to
say: "I AM NOT A SHEEP YOU ASSHOLE/MORON/FUCKER/6-YEAR OLD!!!1!!!!!!1111!"
to my blanket statement?
Think carefully and re-read this entire post before responding.
> > Why does Maiden keep releasing the new "okay" stuff? Because you
> > fucking BUY it. Ever wonder why stuff that sounds closer to the
> mainstream
> > SUCKS?
>
> Point : We don't ALL "fucking" buy it
And to those who responded with the same, I did not disagree. You will
also note that I NEVER responded with something akin to "yeah, you are a
sheep anyways"and left it at that.
THAT would be defintion of a "flame". And it'd make me a
lying-sack-of-shit.
> > Cos the 'artists' realize that they don't HAVE to put in the effort
> > to make good music as long as there are sheep who will buy every
fucking
> > thing with their label on it. Why put in the effort, when sales are
> > guaranteed?
>
> You seem to assume that we all like everything Maiden related, and we all
> hand out our money "like a good little consumer." - in your words.
> I feel this is an attack to the people on this newsgroup.
It was.....an attack on the >newsgroup<. Attack = provocation.
And it has been 'defended against' quite adequately by some of you who
bothered to respond.
However, note that I do not "believe" that this applies to >everyone< (or
make that even, >most< of us).
Also, note: the post, as you can clearly see now, was the first part of a
massive thread which did NOT result in a flame war! Imagine that.
> From original post:
>
> >It's not rocket science. And guess what? When Maiden realizes they
can't
> >get away with pawning the shit they do nowadays, they'll either play
better
> >music or QUIT!
>
> This is an attack on Maidens recent works. Some people actually like
these.
It is an attack on the >quality< (relative term, I explained this) of
Maiden's recent works. No-one has debated against this point thus far.
> >And the only people that would disappoint are the sheep
> >who might as well be listening to Steve Harris' farts anyways ("as long
as
> >it's Maiden! I love EVERYTHING they do!!!!!!" <swoon, drool>).
>
> Are we all like this? Do you have the evidence that proves ANY ONE OF US
a
> "sheep", or a blind consumer, whatever words you wish to use?I think you
are
> wrong to suggest that most people believe"as long as it's Maiden it's
good"
What sort of proof would you like, that is possible to generate on UseNet?
Be fair, and note the context of the responses to this thread.
> >Your choice. Free-will, enjoyment of music you LIKE, or you can stand
in
> >line for the next piece of shit Maiden album, ready to hand your $ out
like
> >a well-trained little animal.
>
> Again, an attack to everyone on the newsgroup. Can you prove that we are
all
> "well-trained little animals" ready to hand out our $. You haven't even
seen
> most of us in person! Do you think you are smarter than everyone here
> because you like the vintage Maiden, but listen to other bands? Very few
> people actually come to this newsgroup now who DO like the new Maiden
> material. I do not, but the reason I come to this newsgroup is to
exchange
> ideas, and discuss matters.
A man on TV says: "You have a choice.....be a free man or be an idiot!".
If your (gut) reaction to the man is "I AM NOT AN IDIOT!!!1!!1!1!!", it is
defensiveness. The >content< of his 'speech' is "what is a 'free man''?
Ask yourself: how many true "idiots" would give the man the above reply?
How many true "free-men" would simply ignore the statement, or dismiss it,
knowing it not to apply to them?
In answer to your "defensive" question above, no....I have not met a single
one of you in person. No, I do not think I am "S.M.A.R.T. ®" for my tastes
in music. However, I will bet that I >enjoy< life more than the average
person (subjective statement, with rational backup...tho not 'physically'
supplied on this newsgroup)
Perspective is a wonderful thing, non?
> >"But I don't see any good metal on MTV....". Solution: stop letting
the
> >media spoonfeed you whatever they decide you should like. Get a mind
of
> >your own, and buy what you LIKE!
>
> You obviously assume that the media dominated our lives?
Take that thought one step farther. Media is a metaphor for "outside
forces" of any kind.
(note: I can see why many would view this as a personal attack. See
above--"defensiveness")
> Tom Fletcher wrote (in a previous post)
> >You have come to this NG with the wrong attitude. Maybe you should think
> >about what you are saying.
>
> I don't think I am being dishonest here, do you? You seem to believe by
what
> you type, that we all praise Iron Maiden because "it's Maiden therefore
it's
> good"
I didn't call that statement dishonest, now, did I? That was your honest
"analysis" of my posting style.
> >Most people on this NG buy the music they like.
>
> I'd say ALL the people on this NG buy the music they like.
I beg to differ, but that's a different thread (if you want to continue it,
please feel free).
> >Your "Maiden sucks coz I say so" attitude doesn't appeal to me, and I
> >dare say that most people on this NG don't like it either.
>
> I think you have to see it from my point of view here. If I were to go to
> your favourite band's newsgroup and post "_______ sucks!! Fight For
> Quality!!" and posted something exactly the same as your original post
was
> to this NG (with the name of the band changed in places, of course) you
may
> get slightly annoyed.
I'd be dishonest to say that I'd have no reaction. But I can honestly say
I wouldn't post "defensive" rebuttals to the original poster.
Example: I believe the most intelligent posters on alt...metallica are the
"bashers", because they make more valid points. They are often abrasive,
but if you look beyond that, to the >content< (those who post content,
anyways), you'll see what I mean.
> Significant Pickle replied to Tom Fletcher:
>
> >Classic canned response. "If you don't agree with me, go listen to
> >(shitty band X)!".
>
> What is the problem here? I was stating the fact that I will listen to
the
> music I enjoy. I will find music that appeals to me more in the future,
but
> for the minute I am more than content with listening to Maiden.
No, you said "If you don't like it, go listen to Korn/Coal Chamber". BIG
difference.
> You were stating that we should exercise free-will. I do. And this is an
> honest comment. Most of the people I know listen to pop music. I have
> exercised more than enough free-will to listen to Maiden, my favourite
band
> AT THE MOMENT.
>
> >"Fight for quality" is the title of this post.
>
> And what suggests that Maiden isn't quality?
Do you honestly want to continue this? If so, please start a new thread.
This isn't a cop-out. The 'argument' you are asking for is long, complex
and detailed. Too much of a tangent for this post.
> >So if I'd rephrased the post:
> >"Excuse me, I know this is only my opinion and I hope it doesn't offend
you
> >all, but I personally feel that Iron Maiden has been doing a slightly
less
> >than optimum creative job on their last few albums....and I think that
> >maybe perhaps some of you people could possibly be listening to them
> >because you maybe perhaps haven't found anything you like better. I
feel
> >that possibly if you put in the effort (no offense!) to find such a
band,
> >Iron Maiden would feel obligated to put more effort into their albums to
> >win you back? JUST MY OPINION!!! DON'T BE OFFENDED!!!!!"
>
> If you had phrased your post like this in the first place, I may have
> thought a LOT differently. Your original post was putting everyone down
by
> saying we are all "well-trained animals", and "sheep."
> THIS is a dishonest comment by YOU!! In your original post! You have come
to
> a general consclusion that we are blind customers!
Essentially, you are saying that you care more for how "polite" a post is
than the content?
Note: the content of my "nice" and "mean" posts is EXACTLY the same.
> >Admittedly, I fucked up my initial post. It should have read:
> >
> >"Uh, a heartfelt 'fuck you' to this. What makes you think I should stop
> >listening to the Maiden I enjoy?"
>
> What makes you think we have to listen to different music when we are
> content to listen to what we please?
Remember my statement? "those who are unhappy with the music they listen
to....", etc.?
You are making a leap of logic (once again) to assume I'm 'attacking you
all' by saying that.
> >Content! Woohoo! :)
> Sarcasm? Doesn't work with me. Sorry.
That was the least sarcastic thing I've said on this newsgroup so far.
Seriously.
> >I make an example out of you, because:
> >
> >A) For the most part, your posts are an attack. There is content (more
now
> >than before, granted)....but pointing out your insubstantiated attacks
> >makes a point for the readers here.
>
> I have attacked you, then it is from the fact you believe we are all
> "sheep".
And I have 'proven' that this is not necessarily the case. Right?
> >B) You rarely reply to the content in my posts, choosing to make
generalist
> >assumptions. I believe I've pointed them out adequately. Feel free to
> >disagree, but do so with >backup<.
>
> WRONG! I do not make general assumptions. You have made a general
assumption
> that we are blind consumers.
> I have disagreed with lots of back up. I have not made ANY personal
attacks
> in this post, agreed?
Almost none. I appreciate your effort to reply mostly to content.
> >Again with your "always"....generalization.
>
> Your generaliztion is that most people on this NG are sheep, like you
said
> in your original post
See above ("defensiveness")
> >Read my reply to you in other thread.
> >"When the argument doesn't go your way": what about this post is an
> >"argument". What am I trying to win?
>
> >And yes, I make mistakes (I've made and apologized for one--AFAICS--thus
> >far). You're "calling" me on this?
>
> If I apologized for all my replies to you, would this make them alright?
You should realize by now that this is not the case. I asked: "you are
'calling me' for admitting that I make mistakes?"
> >> Well, until you know what you are typing, piss off.
>
> >Please tell me what about this response is not a "dishonest personality
> >attack".
>
> Explain how it IS a "dis-honest" personal attack. Personal maybe, but not
> dishonest.
[Simplified]
Any time one attack the poster, not the post, is a personality attack. If
you are drawing conclusions (about the poster) that are clearly not linked
to the content of the post, it is dishonest.
> >One last freebie: You think I give a fuck about what you think about
me?
> >I point out 'dishonesty' as it is useless for discussion, and only leads
to
> >flame-wars.
>
> I don't want a flame war. I would be interested to know your definition
of
> "dis-honest". The Concise English Dictionary states it as "Void of
honesty;
> fraudulent; knavish; perfidious"
> How do you know most of my comments are dishonest? I am an individual,
and I
> think differently to you. Maybe they are dishonest because they do not
agree
> with you?
See above.
> I think all this argument boils down to is our differences in replying to
> posts. Your original post seemed to cut people down on this NG. Your
> comments on bettering ourselves with better music seemed to be saying our
> taste of music is shit.
> Hell, your title even stated "Maiden Sucks". An attack, if anything.
The title was "Maiden Sucks?" The question mark--"?"--implies something,
non?
Your ommission of the "?" when quoting me was either forgetful (omission),
or dishonest (you changed the nature of the quote to fit an argument).
> Well, I hope I have settled my side of this situation. Btw, below is a
list
> of cutting down statements from your original post.
Read this entire post, then re-read it. Then, read all other posts I've
made thus far (using this one as context, if you will).
You will note: my posting "style" is consistent, and I have not made
personality attacks (against individuals) ever. You will also note that I
have been accused of both (inconsistency and personality attacks) by every
poster except Tony S (who >disagrees< with me) and D.P.
Chalk that up to "dishonesty".
Also, chalk this up to an "Honest Discussion on UseNet".
Shiflet
> why o why do you think everybody is always defending against you? you must
> really like that word, don't you?
> defensiveness defensiveness defensiveness defensiveness
Yes, almost as much as this one:dishonest
> cu
> Tonnie
Danny Shiflet
"We plan ahead, that way we don't have to do anything right now"-
Valentine, Tremors
Significant Pickle
T. & M. Van Noggeren <ton...@MNSi.Net> wrote in article
> Significant Pickle wrote:
> > > > That's pretty dishonest.
> > > >
> > > If you can't pick up the sarcasm in my statement then that may
explain
> > > alot of the problems you are having in this newsgroup.
> >
> > What 'problems'?
> >
> If you haven't noticed, Pickle, in the few days since you typed your
> "quality" post approx. 50% of the posts to the IM newsgroup have been
> taking issue with something you have posted (either originally or in
> reply to someone else).
That's not a "problem", tho ;)
The original post was made to incite people to take issue with what was
said. Once people get over the personality issue, there is now the
beginning of 'discussion'.
> I respect you enough (from what I've seen you contribute to the Slayer
> & Metallica newsgroups) to think that you have not shown up here to be
> a troll, so the flack that you are receiving from the IM regulars
> would be interpreted as 'problems' by anyone who wished to be a
> meaningful, insightful contributor to any newsgroup.
In case you haven't noticed, I've ignored the "flack", or pointed it out
for what it is (flame) to make an example of the poster.
Since you read alt...metallica, you should see that I'm FAR more "polite"
on this ng than over there ;)
Significant Pickle
>
> T. & M. Van Noggeren heeft geschreven in bericht
<368A38...@MNSi.Net>...
> >Significant Pickle wrote:
> >> band.
> >And your favourite band is.....?
>
> Hanson probably.....
Can you guess what predictable word I'd stick in here?
Could you also guess (honestly) at why I bother take the time to point it
out?
(freebie hint: See the "Making an Example" thread)...
Significant Pickle
>
> Significant Pickle heeft geschreven in bericht
> <01be342f$00347e20$d4b6c898@vanguard>...
> >Let me try to make this simple, so you can understand:
> >"Where did I say this" is asking for >backup< of a point.
> >
> >And this bores you. That makes a statement.
> >
> >This is a caricature/mocking of your last statement: "You bore me,
you're
> >always asking for proof and content, and you keep calling the ones who
> >don't give it liars/dishonest. That's so repetitive. You bore me."
>
> Ok, to put it in your words: where did I ask you for proof, and where did
I
> call you a liar?
> Man, you been here only 3 days and act like you know it all.
Okay, you've completely lost me here ;)
You have not been calling me a liar (lots of other things, but no matter),
nor have you asked for content.
You have made the decree that:
A) "S.Pickle is a boring jerk who always posts the same stuff"
B) "S. Pickle bores me"
C) "S. Pickle thinks he knows it all"
I'll use you as an example here.
Tom, do you see where the "dishonesty" stems from? (C excluded....it's a
valid perception).
> >> <sarcasm> yeah man, I get a hardon from thinking that.... </sarcasm>
> >
> >Knee-jerk sarcasm is a sign of......defensiveness.
> >(of course, you'll just see this as a "flame").
>
> why o why do you think everybody is always defending against you? you
must
> really like that word, don't you?
> defensiveness defensiveness defensiveness defensiveness
See my "honest discussion" with Tom Fletcher. Re-read it (as I do all your
posts, at least twice to make sure I'm not pulling anything out of
context), and try to understand the point.
That's about all I can ask.
Aaron Burrough
<t...@fletch05.globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
> I think Pickle is really here to piss people off. Isn't it SO exciting when
> you can cause a bit of stir on the newsgroup? Not really to us, but to some
> four year olds out there (Pickle) who still need to grow up, it is great
> fun!
If memory serves me correctly I had a similar problem with this guy and a
host of other narrow-minded bigots on alt.music.slayer. All I did was
stated I thought Hell Awaits was the worst Slayer album out of a great
load of albums and him and his fellow bigots got overly defensive and told
me my opinion was wrong and I should get the fuck out of the NG despite my
giving several legitimate reasons why I thought Hell Awaits is a bad
album. I'm guessing he's picked up this form of ignorant behavior through
the jackass Slayer "fans" from a.m.slayer and figures it's ok to come over
here and start serving us up posts along the same lines as those. I'm just
ignoring Mr. Pickle and I recommend you guys do so to.
--
Aaron
"Iron Maiden's gonna get ya no matter how far!" - Steve Harris
Aaron Burrough
<ton...@MNSi.Net> wrote:
> If you can't pick up the sarcasm in my statement then that may explain
> goofy flames and namecalling that seem to plague the Metallica
> newsgroup.
Heh, Tony, you haven't seen nothing yet dude. Check out the Motley Crue
one if you got some time to kick around.
> Regards,
> Tony
Significant Pickle
<violate-3012...@c670723-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com>...
Aaron,
Your memory does not serve you correctly. You were attacked by a bunch of
morons on the slayer newsgroup, and I >defended< your opinions, as did
another poster (Nevermind).
You then proceeded to turn around and >attack< the posters who were
defending you, which brought the newsgroup into an uproar of laughter
"omigod! he's flaming the guys who are sticking up for him!!!!!". At
which point, you stopped posting rather quickly.
Does that refresh your memory? [www.dejanews.com will vouch for that]
endle...@att.net
>>I'm not accusing them of "selling out". I'm accusing them of "artistic
>>laziness".
>>There's a mild but significant difference.
>
>
>...but they could have been "artistically lazy" 10 years ago when they were
>guaranteed sales-no-matter-what if they wanted to.
>And previously you said something to the effect of "they made it now, so
>whats the point of trying to make good music" which IMO is a sellout.
Some people think they might have been(artistically lazy). I know one
poster was saying how Powerslave had the most weak tracks of any of
the 'classic' albums. I always listed that(w/Seventh Son) as their
best but his point is valid to a degree, I think the tracks are weak
in comparison to the epic greatness of Powerslave/Rime. Even S.
Harris didn't seem to like Powerslave that much.
I like the artistically lazy line because I think it's very
approriate, they certainly are not selling out or we would have Number
of the Beast II etc. I think age has caught up with them(I can
personally relate to that) and the fire that burned back then(for a
whole lotta bands) just doesn't burn as bright anymore.
I've said before that I think Vitual XI may be there best album since
Seventh Son(it is argueable the second most consistent album they've
done - Seventh Son being the most). I also like X-Factor more than I
used to but is does seem to have some inconsistencies.
Shaun Baker
12-29-98
Aaron Burrough
<sgnfc...@XbongXaol.com> wrote:
> Aaron,
>
> Your memory does not serve you correctly. You were attacked by a bunch of
> morons on the slayer newsgroup, and I >defended< your opinions, as did
> another poster (Nevermind).
Oh, ok. I apologize then. That was several months ago so I can barely
remember who said what. I just remember you being one of the many people
who replied to my posts.
> You then proceeded to turn around and >attack< the posters who were
> defending you, which brought the newsgroup into an uproar of laughter
> "omigod! he's flaming the guys who are sticking up for him!!!!!". At
> which point, you stopped posting rather quickly.
Now that my sir is incorrect. I remember Nevermind saying that he was
sticking up for me, but he did it in such a sarcastic manner it appeared
more as a direct flame towards me than a defense on my part.
> Does that refresh your memory? [www.dejanews.com will vouch for that]
Partly... They're really not memories I want brought back.
> E.
Interesting name.
PS
I agree with most of your opinions on new Maiden, but you gotta learn how
to state your opinions in a less abrasive manner. Maiden fans are
generally more civilized(if you wanna call it that)than say Slayer fans so
we are more careful about what we post.
T. & M. Van Noggeren
>
> In article <368A74...@MNSi.Net>, "T. & M. Van Noggeren"
> <ton...@MNSi.Net> wrote:
>
> > If you can't pick up the sarcasm in my statement then that may explain
> > alot of the problems you are having in this newsgroup. I find the
> > quality of posting in the IM newsgroup to be leaps & bounds beyond the
> > goofy flames and namecalling that seem to plague the Metallica
> > newsgroup.
>
> Heh, Tony, you haven't seen nothing yet dude. Check out the Motley Crue
> one if you got some time to kick around.
>
> > Regards,
> > Tony
>
> --
> Aaron
>
not interested in going near either of them any time soon (even though
I like the music both of these bands did early in their careers).
I don't think I'll hang around the Metallica NG very long either - far
too much "old vs. new" and "metal vs. non-metal" bickering going on
there for my taste.
Tony
Tony Szablowski
>Good point Tony. I was hoping someone else would say this too. I
>think I am going to have to filter this guys messages if he stays. He
>seems to be a prick.
Tom, I don't like to speak unkindly of anyone unless I really know
them, but I feel this guy really just want to stir things up. And
that might now be a _bad_ thing here.
--
Regards,
Tony
Tony Szablowski
<01be33c4$4d76f200$5a8d94d1@vanguard>...
>First off, I'd like you to review the responses to my initial post,
and
>perhaps you'd see why my response at that time was appropriate.
Ok. I've read them. Now, why do _you_ feel they were appropriate?
>Secondly, if you are going to say that just about everyone has
>presented a valid argument against my statements (read: valid
>points<, not dishonest personality attacks), I'd like you to back
them >up by citing quotes.
I didn't mean everyone here in the Iron Maiden NG. I meant anyone
that posts a msg should be ready for the replies they get. If you're
willing to jump into the foray, don't be surprised if
someone responds with a definitive argument.
--
Regards,
Tony
Tony Szablowski
HERE COMES THE CALVARY!!! :-)))
>Hey Pickle, I have a lot of valid points which I could use against
your
>argument, that are not personal dishonest attacks. Why do you
>continue to think that when we type replies to your post, they are
>always "dishonest- peronal attacks"? And then, when the argument
>oesn't go your way, you reckon you fucked up on your original post.
>hen you say "perhaps I should have said.........."
>Well, until you know what you are typing, piss off.
ROTFFLMTGDAO!!!!
:-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
--
Regards,
Tony
Tony Szablowski
<SNIP!>
>One last freebie: You think I give a fuck about what you think about
>me? I point out 'dishonesty' as it is useless for discussion, and
only >leads to flame-wars.
LOL! Ah, but you reply none-the-less, and you show your true colors
in doing so!
--
Regards,
Tony
Tony Szablowski
>I think Pickle is really here to piss people off. Isn't it SO
exciting >when you can cause a bit of stir on the newsgroup? Not
really to us, >but to some four year olds out there (Pickle) who still
need to grow >up, it is great fun!
HEY! Where's Valarian??!!! (sp?) Could it be? <thinking> Then
again, no. I don't remember Valerian as this ..........smart.(?)
--
Regards,
Tony
Tony Szablowski
>If memory serves me correctly I had a similar problem with this guy
>and a host of other narrow-minded bigots on alt.music.slayer. All I
>did was stated I thought Hell Awaits was the worst Slayer album out
>of a great load of albums and him and his fellow bigots got overly
>defensive and told me my opinion was wrong and I should get the >fuck
out of the NG despite my giving several legitimate reasons why
Don't despair, my friend. He tries to elevate himself to a higher
level of debate, yet he can't. His reasonings when called upon are
weak and visible. We have called him out!!! We have fought the good
fight! For a black wind, fire and steel! :-))
--
Regards,
Tony
Significant Pickle
<violate-3012...@c670723-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com>...
> <sgnfc...@XbongXaol.com> wrote:
>
> > Aaron,
> >
> > Your memory does not serve you correctly. You were attacked by a
bunch of
> > morons on the slayer newsgroup, and I >defended< your opinions, as did
> > another poster (Nevermind).
>
> Oh, ok. I apologize then. That was several months ago so I can barely
> remember who said what. I just remember you being one of the many people
> who replied to my posts.
>
> > You then proceeded to turn around and >attack< the posters who were
> > defending you, which brought the newsgroup into an uproar of laughter
> > "omigod! he's flaming the guys who are sticking up for him!!!!!". At
> > which point, you stopped posting rather quickly.
>
> Now that my sir is incorrect. I remember Nevermind saying that he was
> sticking up for me, but he did it in such a sarcastic manner it appeared
> more as a direct flame towards me than a defense on my part.
I've "argued" with Nevermind often in the past. Trust me, he was defending
you....the sarcasm was aimed >directly< at the Opinion Kings on the ng.
> > Does that refresh your memory? [www.dejanews.com will vouch for that]
>
> Partly... They're really not memories I want brought back.
>
> > E.
>
> Interesting name.
It comes with tomatoes on the side if you place the order at the right
time.
> PS
> I agree with most of your opinions on new Maiden, but you gotta learn how
> to state your opinions in a less abrasive manner. Maiden fans are
> generally more civilized(if you wanna call it that)than say Slayer fans
so
> we are more careful about what we post.
The >reason< I posted the way I did was what you state above.
Could you >imagine< what would happen if I posted this on alt....metallica?
Also: note the number of 'flamewars' (yuk) that errupted from this
post--None.
A credit to the newsgroup, what say?
Significant Pickle
<76ep4h$g...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
"Wanting to stir things up" is an absolutely correct assumption.
Note, however, that none (or very little) of this stirring up is "flame" on
either side for very long.
Tony Szablowski
>"Excuse me, I know this is only my opinion and I hope it doesn't
>offend you all, but I personally feel that Iron Maiden has been doing
>a slightly less than optimum creative job on their last few
>albums....and I think that maybe perhaps some of you people could
>possibly be listening to them because you maybe perhaps haven't
>found anything you like better. I feel that possibly if you put in
the
Well now, man-without-a-real-name, I agree with you, sir!
--
Regards,
Tony
Tony Szablowski
>If you can't pick up the sarcasm in my statement then that may
>explain a lot of the problems you are having in this newsgroup. I
>find the quality of posting in the IM newsgroup to be leaps & bounds
>beyond the goofy flames and namecalling that seem to plague the
>Metallica newsgroup.
Well, though I'm no spokesman for this NG, I fully appreciate and
thank you for the compliments I infer from your post. :-))
--
Regards,
Tony
Significant Pickle
> Significant Pickle wrote in message
> >First off, I'd like you to review the responses to my initial post,
> and
> >perhaps you'd see why my response at that time was appropriate.
>
> Ok. I've read them. Now, why do _you_ feel they were appropriate?
I've already posted this many times, but here goes yet again: If someone
posts something like "You just think you're smart you're a 4-year old with
no life and too much time and you said we are all sheep", I can only
respond to that which has content.
Dishonesty in posting responses amounted to quoting me completely out of
context (do you deny this has taken place?), and using it as a personality
attack is useless to discussion.
If you think I'm "offended" by the personality attacks, fine. Irrelevant.
I'm interested in discussion, and flame has no part in discussion. It is
reactionary.
Read the "Honesty in UseNet discussion?" thread.
> >Secondly, if you are going to say that just about everyone has
> >presented a valid argument against my statements (read: valid
> >points<, not dishonest personality attacks), I'd like you to back
> them >up by citing quotes.
>
> I didn't mean everyone here in the Iron Maiden NG. I meant anyone
> that posts a msg should be ready for the replies they get. If you're
> willing to jump into the foray, don't be surprised if
> someone responds with a definitive argument.
I'll repeat yet one more time: I WANT definitive arguments! (or at least,
definitive posts). Saying "you're stupid and you just think we're stupid"
and the like is useless, and does not promote discussion.
Note very carefully: when someone makes a >point< (as Tom F. has done on
some occasions now), I respond to the point in kind. You may disagree with
my point, and that's fine....we could >discuss< it.
(note: I've explained every point on this post at least once in others)
Significant Pickle
> Significant Pickle wrote in message
> <SNIP!>
>
> >One last freebie: You think I give a fuck about what you think about
> >me? I point out 'dishonesty' as it is useless for discussion, and
> only >leads to flame-wars.
>
> LOL! Ah, but you reply none-the-less, and you show your true colors
> in doing so!
I've explained in great detail why I point out 'dishonesty' in posts. To
give the poster perspective.
I thought you read my posts?
Significant Pickle
I'm going to assume this is yet >another< comment on the mistake I made in
that one post (good thing you guys don't keep "grudges", eh?).
If it isn't, then I'd like you to cite QUOTES to back up your statement.
Like Tom F. did (and we discussed......imagine that?)
Significant Pickle
> Significant Pickle wrote in message
Yuck.
The content in both posts is IDENTICAL (I've pointed this out before). One
is abrasive arrogant...written by an asshole (aesthetic), and the above one
is obsequious, pandering, and written by a weakling (aesthetic).
You agree with one and not the other?
The word "dishonest" is going to creep in here....and it's not flame. it's
constructive criticism. Like when you tell me that you think I'd get more
accomplished if I did not come off so much an asshole (that's
constructive...I don't agree, but constructive nonetheless).
Analogy: A bald man tells you that he thinks you're hair is too long. You
tell him to fuck off, even tho you agree (in this example, we'll say you
feel you need a haircut)
Then a guy with long hair tell you politely "I think you might consider a
haircut sir", and you agree?
NOTE AGAIN: Nothing about this post is a flame. It is designed (as all
others) to offer you a perspective.
Tokus
Shiflet heeft geschreven in bericht <368ABB...@ix.netcom.com>...
>Tokus wrote:
>
>> why o why do you think everybody is always defending against you? you
must
>> really like that word, don't you?
>> defensiveness defensiveness defensiveness defensiveness
>
and he keeps talking about "content" too.....
cu
Tonnie
T. & M. Van Noggeren
It is true (not DISHONEST!!). Other than a few trolls who have
wandered through this newsgroup this year, overall the IM NG is
frequented by mature posters who respect each other's opinions and
type posts with CONTENT.
It's too bad that we are letting the pickle get us on edge and
DEFENSIVE. We have choices: we can continue to play his semantic
word games or we can ignore him until he is willing to discuss Iron
Maiden topics in a reasonable, less abrasive manner.
Regards,
the other Tony
Curtis Rea
>I've already posted this many times, but here goes yet again: If someone
>posts something like "You just think you're smart you're a 4-year old with
>no life and too much time and you said we are all sheep", I can only
>respond to that which has content.
So when you called Shiflet a "LIAR" that was strictly content right? Man
I'm getting confused.
Tom Fletcher
>More content!
>Tom Fletcher <t...@fletch05.globalnet.co.uk> wrote in article
><76e28e$ob$1...@newnews.global.net.uk>...
>> Okay Significant Pickle, you want content and back up, you can have it.
>That's all I've ever asked for.
>> Significant Pickle wrote: (Part of original post)
> >>So, a solution: quit being such a lying sack-of-shit, and excersize
>>>some
> >>of that thing you have they call "free-will". Don't enjoy the music too
>> much? There >are only about a BILLION really good metal bands in the
>>vein
>> of Maiden (and >many I dare say better) that you could listen to.
>>
>> Good point about the metal bands, but where is YOUR proof that we are
>>lying
>> sacks of shit? How do you suppose we can exercise free-will if we are not
>> already? Surely we listen to the music we already do because we like it?
>> The lying sack of shit part is an attack to the NG.
>"Lying sack of shit"--exaggeration of a point, to make a point. You are
>correct, aesthetically there is no difference between this and a flame, but
>I will (and have) point out dishonesty in several responses to me. (I do
>not want to define "LIAR" entirely in this post yet, but rather show
>you--the newsgroup readers--by example after example. It's a complicated
>defintion).
Agreed here.
>Your general question: "Why is your (S. Pickle) posting style so damn
>abrasive?"
>
>My simplified answer: Because it gets results.
It does get results, I will admit that, but some people may get slightly
offended by calling them "lying sacks of shit", even though they KNOW the
post is not aimed at them personally.
>> >Before you get defensive, just think about it first. Believe it or not,
>> >nothing about this post was a personal attack.
>>
>> I think calling us lying sacks of shit is rather a personal attack, don't
>> you?
>
>I'd like you to elaborate on this.
Okay, "Blind Guardian Sucks? Fight For Quality!!" (and yes, I admit, I did
forget about the ?)
Hey, all you people who listen to BG. Their next album is going to be SHIT!
And you are going to BUY IT, and hand out your money like a well trained
animal!
Quit sitting around on your backsides you lying sacks of shit, and get some
music you REALLY enjoy! Hey, don't blame MTV! "I don't see good metal on
MTV.." Get some music you will enjoy more than the poor quality albums your
favourite bands are churning out now!
How would you feel?
(Btw, this is NOT an attack to BG. I am using this as an example.)
>Common behaviour amongst humans: it is more difficult to be objective and
>understand another's point of view. It is much easier to villify the ones
>you disagree with ("Significant Pickle is just a 4-year old with nothing
>better to do than flame people!!!!!!!"), ("Hitler was a fucking evil madman
>who killed Jews") than honestly think and consider their perspective.
The four-year old thing was maybe over the top, I admit.
>You may think I have not thought about your perspective. I have....proof:
> I've been on the "receiving" end of a series of posts just like this one
>myself, and had my 'dishonesty' shown very clearly. Altho it took MANY
>different posts.
>However, my initial post "pissed you off" enough to completely overlook the
>content within. Not an attack, this comment, but a relevant point that I
>want you to think about.
I did not overlook the content within, and because I felt your post WAS a
little too abrasive, as you admit, you can expect an abrasive reply (mine)
which was not intended to personally attack you, or start a flame war. The
person who started to carry this on was you.
>(hint: there is a VERY definite reason the original post was written the
>way it was. Maybe it was a little bit >too< abrasive, perhaps, but I stand
>behind it).
>Context time here: If someone made a blanket statement, "You're all
>animal-fuckers who fuck your mothers too!" on this newsgroup, you're
>response would be simply "go away, idiot", or something, right? Why,
>because you KNOW that it does not apply to you, are secure in the fact that
>it does not apply to you, and dismiss the poster as a "flamer".
Some people would be offended by this, even if it does not apply to them
personally? You use that dreaded word "ALL", as a general assumption. If I
sent you a personal e-mail, or a post to the group that said "Dear
Significant Pickle, you are a total and utter wanker that spends all his
time blowing goats and fucking horses up the arse" which is a ridiculous
comment, what would you do?
>Why do you suppose, then, that so many people vehemently made a point to
>say: "I AM NOT A SHEEP YOU ASSHOLE/MORON/FUCKER/6-YEAR OLD!!!1!!!!!!1111!"
>to my blanket statement?
Maybe so you know that we are all not sheep? You DID use the word "all" in
your original post "You are all going to BUY it!"
>> > Why does Maiden keep releasing the new "okay" stuff? Because you
>> > fucking BUY it. Ever wonder why stuff that sounds closer to the
>> mainstream
>> > SUCKS?
>>
>> Point : We don't ALL "fucking" buy it
>
>And to those who responded with the same, I did not disagree. You will
>also note that I NEVER responded with something akin to "yeah, you are a
>sheep anyways"and left it at that.
Agreed, you did not reply to anyone "your a sheep anyway", but again you
come up with a general conclusion that we buy the material. Your choice of
words here too is rather provoking. "You fucking buy it" is asking for a
flaming reply.
>THAT would be defintion of a "flame". And it'd make me a
>lying-sack-of-shit.
>
>> > Cos the 'artists' realize that they don't HAVE to put in the effort
>> > to make good music as long as there are sheep who will buy every
>fucking
>> > thing with their label on it. Why put in the effort, when sales are
>> > guaranteed?
>>
>> You seem to assume that we all like everything Maiden related, and we all
>> hand out our money "like a good little consumer." - in your words.
>> I feel this is an attack to the people on this newsgroup.
>
>It was.....an attack on the >newsgroup<. Attack = provocation.
>And it has been 'defended against' quite adequately by some of you who
>bothered to respond.
It was an attack on the newsgroup, and has been defended against, but what
was the original need to attack the newsgroup? Yeah, it creates response by
provoking people, but later on if you stay at this NG, people will probably
just flame you for anything is you attack the whole NG.
>However, note that I do not "believe" that this applies to >everyone< (or
>make that even, >most< of us).
Then why state "And your all going to BUY it!!"?
>Also, note: the post, as you can clearly see now, was the first part of a
>massive thread which did NOT result in a flame war! Imagine that.
>
>> From original post:
>>
>> >It's not rocket science. And guess what? When Maiden realizes they
>can't
>> >get away with pawning the shit they do nowadays, they'll either play
>better
>> >music or QUIT!
>>
>> This is an attack on Maidens recent works. Some people actually like
>these.
>
>It is an attack on the >quality< (relative term, I explained this) of
>Maiden's recent works. No-one has debated against this point thus far.
I speak for myself here. Even though I do not like the music that Maiden
produce now, I think there is some quality there. It is nothing like their
old material, but how many metal bands do you know that can keep the same
style and consistency for nearly 25 years?
>> >And the only people that would disappoint are the sheep
>> >who might as well be listening to Steve Harris' farts anyways ("as long
>as
>> >it's Maiden! I love EVERYTHING they do!!!!!!" <swoon, drool>).
>>
>> Are we all like this? Do you have the evidence that proves ANY ONE OF US
>a
>> "sheep", or a blind consumer, whatever words you wish to use?I think you
>are
>> wrong to suggest that most people believe"as long as it's Maiden it's
>good"
>
>What sort of proof would you like, that is possible to generate on UseNet?
>Be fair, and note the context of the responses to this thread.
>> >Your choice. Free-will, enjoyment of music you LIKE, or you can stand
>in
>> >line for the next piece of shit Maiden album, ready to hand your $ out
>like
>> >a well-trained little animal.
>>
>> Again, an attack to everyone on the newsgroup. Can you prove that we are
>all
>> "well-trained little animals" ready to hand out our $. You haven't even
>seen
>> most of us in person! Do you think you are smarter than everyone here
>> because you like the vintage Maiden, but listen to other bands? Very few
>> people actually come to this newsgroup now who DO like the new Maiden
>> material. I do not, but the reason I come to this newsgroup is to
>exchange
>> ideas, and discuss matters.
>
>A man on TV says: "You have a choice.....be a free man or be an idiot!".
>
>If your (gut) reaction to the man is "I AM NOT AN IDIOT!!!1!!1!1!!", it is
>defensiveness. The >content< of his 'speech' is "what is a 'free man''?
>Ask yourself: how many true "idiots" would give the man the above reply?
>How many true "free-men" would simply ignore the statement, or dismiss it,
>knowing it not to apply to them?
>
>In answer to your "defensive" question above, no....I have not met a single
>one of you in person. No, I do not think I am "S.M.A.R.T. ®" for my tastes
>in music. However, I will bet that I >enjoy< life more than the average
>person (subjective statement, with rational backup...tho not 'physically'
>supplied on this newsgroup)
>
>Perspective is a wonderful thing, non?
I was only concerned about your "next piece of shit Maiden album" comment.
This is a personal comment, and if people reply to your post saying they
like this new Maiden music by choice, there is nothing anyone can do.
Btw, I have a lot of other important things in my life apart from music,
Maiden, and this NG, so I think I can safely say that I enjoy my life to its
full extent. Your personal comment about. "However, I will bet that I
>enjoy< life more than the average
person" (which you do state is a subjective comment) is not needed. How do
you class an average person? Am I an average person? What makes you
"above-average"?
>> >"But I don't see any good metal on MTV....". Solution: stop letting
>the
>> >media spoonfeed you whatever they decide you should like. Get a mind
>of
>> >your own, and buy what you LIKE!
>>
>> You obviously assume that the media dominated our lives?
>
>Take that thought one step farther. Media is a metaphor for "outside
>forces" of any kind.
>
>(note: I can see why many would view this as a personal attack. See
>above--"defensiveness")
I'm glad you see that this could be viewed as a personal attack.
>> Tom Fletcher wrote (in a previous post)
>> >You have come to this NG with the wrong attitude. Maybe you should think
>> >about what you are saying.
>>
>> I don't think I am being dishonest here, do you? You seem to believe by
>what
>> you type, that we all praise Iron Maiden because "it's Maiden therefore
>it's
>> good"
>
>I didn't call that statement dishonest, now, did I? That was your honest
>"analysis" of my posting style.
Yes, it was honest, and no you did not reply to this post. I was simply
asking if you felt that I was being dishonest in my comment. This was not to
mock you. Maybe if I had phrased it :
"This is my opinion on you (S.P.) Do you think this comment that was made is
unreasonable?"
>> >Most people on this NG buy the music they like.
>>
>> I'd say ALL the people on this NG buy the music they like.
>
>I beg to differ, but that's a different thread (if you want to continue it,
>please feel free).
Please, elaborate here. Maybe you should do a survey on this newsgroup to
ask people if they buy the music they DON'T like, just because it has a
Maiden logo on it. Accepted it is a different thread, please can you offer
some valid points to back you up?
Question : I bought Maiden's Virus single a while ago. I do not like the
Virus song a great deal, but I bought the CD because it has Sanctuary and
Wrathchild from Metal For Muthas as b-sides. Did I buy the single like a
sheep, or because of other factors?
>> >Your "Maiden sucks coz I say so" attitude doesn't appeal to me, and I
>> >dare say that most people on this NG don't like it either.
>>
>> I think you have to see it from my point of view here. If I were to go to
>> your favourite band's newsgroup and post "_______ sucks!! Fight For
>> Quality!!" and posted something exactly the same as your original post
>was
>> to this NG (with the name of the band changed in places, of course) you
>may
>> get slightly annoyed.
>
>I'd be dishonest to say that I'd have no reaction. But I can honestly say
>I wouldn't post "defensive" rebuttals to the original poster.
>Example: I believe the most intelligent posters on alt...metallica are the
>"bashers", because they make more valid points. They are often abrasive,
>but if you look beyond that, to the >content< (those who post content,
>anyways), you'll see what I mean.
I believe that some people are intelligent, but still spend their time
flaming others (I am not saying this is anyone on this NG, I am referring to
other NG's). Some of the less intelligent people make some of the most valid
points. The bashers with generally abrasive posts nine out of ten times will
get the best reply, but this is basically because people over look the
content. My original reply to your original post was full of attacks because
your original post was rather abrasive. Not many people post with the same
style as you in this NG.
>> Significant Pickle replied to Tom Fletcher:
>>
>> >Classic canned response. "If you don't agree with me, go listen to
>> >(shitty band X)!".
>>
>> What is the problem here? I was stating the fact that I will listen to
>the
>> music I enjoy. I will find music that appeals to me more in the future,
>but
>> for the minute I am more than content with listening to Maiden.
>
>No, you said "If you don't like it, go listen to Korn/Coal Chamber". BIG
>difference.
Maybe I should have said "If you don't like it, go listen to Country and
Western"?
I phrased my reply badly. What I would liked to have got across was:
"I will listen to the music I do because I am exercising free will. I
appreciate your advertisement for other bands, but frankly I am not
interested because I am content at the minute. If you do not like the music
I listen to, then you should appreciate I am not posting to your favourite
band's NG with the abrasive posting style you have come here with. You
listen to the music you want to, even if I do not agree."
>> You were stating that we should exercise free-will. I do. And this is an
>> honest comment. Most of the people I know listen to pop music. I have
>> exercised more than enough free-will to listen to Maiden, my favourite
>band
>> AT THE MOMENT.
>>
>> >"Fight for quality" is the title of this post.
>>
>> And what suggests that Maiden isn't quality?
>
>Do you honestly want to continue this? If so, please start a new thread.
It all comes down to what you class as "quality". Some people believe in
Maiden's latest releases. (See above - metal bands being consistent for 25
years)
>This isn't a cop-out. The 'argument' you are asking for is long, complex
>and detailed. Too much of a tangent for this post.
I am not asking for any argument, I simply am interested in why you believe
Maiden is not >quality<. So far you have not given me any valid reasons,
apart from "it doesn't match up to their old stuff"
>> >So if I'd rephrased the post:
>> >"Excuse me, I know this is only my opinion and I hope it doesn't offend
>you
>> >all, but I personally feel that Iron Maiden has been doing a slightly
>less
>> >than optimum creative job on their last few albums....and I think that
>> >maybe perhaps some of you people could possibly be listening to them
>> >because you maybe perhaps haven't found anything you like better. I
>feel
>> >that possibly if you put in the effort (no offense!) to find such a
>band,
>> >Iron Maiden would feel obligated to put more effort into their albums to
>> >win you back? JUST MY OPINION!!! DON'T BE OFFENDED!!!!!"
>>
>> If you had phrased your post like this in the first place, I may have
>> thought a LOT differently. Your original post was putting everyone down
>by
>> saying we are all "well-trained animals", and "sheep."
>> THIS is a dishonest comment by YOU!! In your original post! You have come
>to
>> a general consclusion that we are blind customers!
>
>Essentially, you are saying that you care more for how "polite" a post is
>than the content?
No. I do not say this. Your original post, agreed, has content. BUT its
provactive manner is not apprreciated.
>Note: the content of my "nice" and "mean" posts is EXACTLY the same.
I know. The content of my "mean and flaming" first reply to you, and this is
exactly the same.
>> >Admittedly, I fucked up my initial post. It should have read:
>> >
>> >"Uh, a heartfelt 'fuck you' to this. What makes you think I should stop
>> >listening to the Maiden I enjoy?"
>>
>> What makes you think we have to listen to different music when we are
>> content to listen to what we please?
>
>Remember my statement? "those who are unhappy with the music they listen
>to....", etc.?
>You are making a leap of logic (once again) to assume I'm 'attacking you
>all' by saying that.
If people are unhappy with the music they listen to, I would seriously hope
that they have found something else. If people listen to recent Maiden
works, are they "not happy"
>> >Content! Woohoo! :)
>> Sarcasm? Doesn't work with me. Sorry.
>
>That was the least sarcastic thing I've said on this newsgroup so far.
>Seriously.
This may be the least sarcastic thing on this NG so far, but it may be the
ONLY sarcastic comment on this NG?
>> >I make an example out of you, because:
>> >
>> >A) For the most part, your posts are an attack. There is content (more
>now
>> >than before, granted)....but pointing out your insubstantiated attacks
>> >makes a point for the readers here.
>>
>> I have attacked you, then it is from the fact you believe we are all
>> "sheep".
>
>And I have 'proven' that this is not necessarily the case. Right?
You have only realised from replies. (your original post "Your all going to
buy it, like well trained animals"??)
>> >B) You rarely reply to the content in my posts, choosing to make
>generalist
>> >assumptions. I believe I've pointed them out adequately. Feel free to
>> >disagree, but do so with >backup<.
>>
>> WRONG! I do not make general assumptions. You have made a general
>assumption
>> that we are blind consumers.
>> I have disagreed with lots of back up. I have not made ANY personal
>attacks
>> in this post, agreed?
>
>Almost none. I appreciate your effort to reply mostly to content.
Once again, I can say I have not included any personal attacks to you in
this post.
>> >Again with your "always"....generalization.
>>
>> Your generaliztion is that most people on this NG are sheep, like you
>said
>> in your original post
>
>See above ("defensiveness")
The Concise English Dictionary states:
Defensive: Proper for defence; carried on in resisting attack; in a state or
posture to defend. That which defends; state or posture of defence.
Please state why my comments are defensive, and why your replies are NOT
defensive. This could be rather interesting.
>> >Read my reply to you in other thread.
>> >"When the argument doesn't go your way": what about this post is an
>> >"argument". What am I trying to win?
>>
>> >And yes, I make mistakes (I've made and apologized for one--AFAICS--thus
>> >far). You're "calling" me on this?
>>
>> If I apologized for all my replies to you, would this make them alright?
>
>You should realize by now that this is not the case. I asked: "you are
>'calling me' for admitting that I make mistakes?"
The question was : If I apologized for silly replies to you, would you
forget them?
If so, you would not be able to use these comments against me later on.
>> >> Well, until you know what you are typing, piss off.
>>
>> >Please tell me what about this response is not a "dishonest personality
>> >attack".
>>
>> Explain how it IS a "dis-honest" personal attack. Personal maybe, but not
>> dishonest.
>
>[Simplified]
>Any time one attack the poster, not the post, is a personality attack. If
>you are drawing conclusions (about the poster) that are clearly not linked
>to the content of the post, it is dishonest.
Please state your source of information. Or maybe you could explain why "If
you are drawing conclusions (about the poster) that are clearly not linked
to the content of the post, it is dishonest.". If I were asking you to piss
off, how is this a "dis-honest statement"? Explain how this could be made
HONEST.
>> >One last freebie: You think I give a fuck about what you think about
>me?
>> >I point out 'dishonesty' as it is useless for discussion, and only leads
>to
>> >flame-wars.
>>
>> I don't want a flame war. I would be interested to know your definition
>of
>> "dis-honest". The Concise English Dictionary states it as "Void of
>honesty;
>> fraudulent; knavish; perfidious"
>> How do you know most of my comments are dishonest? I am an individual,
>and I
>> think differently to you. Maybe they are dishonest because they do not
>agree
>> with you?
>
>See above.
Because they are not linked to what has been said already?
Imagine this in a shop.
Shopkeeper : "Good morning, would you like your regular newspaper"
Customer : "Have you got any bananas for sale in here?"
Is the customer making a dishonest statement? There is nothing to link a
newspaper with bananas.
>> I think all this argument boils down to is our differences in replying to
>> posts. Your original post seemed to cut people down on this NG. Your
>> comments on bettering ourselves with better music seemed to be saying our
>> taste of music is shit.
>> Hell, your title even stated "Maiden Sucks". An attack, if anything.
>
>The title was "Maiden Sucks?" The question mark--"?"--implies something,
>non?
>
>Your ommission of the "?" when quoting me was either forgetful (omission),
>or dishonest (you changed the nature of the quote to fit an argument).
I did forget, and will apologize.
>> Well, I hope I have settled my side of this situation. Btw, below is a
>list
>> of cutting down statements from your original post.
>
>Read this entire post, then re-read it. Then, read all other posts I've
>made thus far (using this one as context, if you will).
>
>You will note: my posting "style" is consistent, and I have not made
>personality attacks (against individuals) ever. You will also note that I
>have been accused of both (inconsistency and personality attacks) by every
>poster except Tony S (who >disagrees< with me) and D.P.
>Chalk that up to "dishonesty".
You have never made any personal attacks? The lying sack of shit comment
could be viewed as a personal attack. I sure as hell would think of it as.
Because you have said above this was not meant to be a personal attack,
should I forget about it?
>Also, chalk this up to an "Honest Discussion on UseNet".
Tom Fletcher
t...@fletch05.globalnet.co.uk
"Who leads you to the dark secrets?"
Bruce Dickinson
"You haunt me, you taunt me
You torture me back at your lair"
Steve Harris
Tom Fletcher
>HEY! Where's Valarian??!!! (sp?) Could it be? <thinking> Then
>again, no. I don't remember Valerian as this ..........smart.(?)
Val was pretty smart, but I don't think he would change his name to come
back to this NG. If it was Val, I'm sure glowsticks would have been
mentioned by now!
Tom Fletcher
>"Wanting to stir things up" is an absolutely correct assumption.
>
>Note, however, that none (or very little) of this stirring up is "flame" on
>either side for very long.
Please explain WHAT you want to stir up, and why you want this.
If you say you don't want to stir anything bad, then this would be dishonest
because you posted quite a provoking original post.
Significant Pickle
<368B6A...@MNSi.Net>...
> Tony Szablowski wrote:
> >
> > T. & M. Van Noggeren wrote in message <368A74...@MNSi.Net>...
> >
> > >If you can't pick up the sarcasm in my statement then that may
> > >explain a lot of the problems you are having in this newsgroup. I
> > >find the quality of posting in the IM newsgroup to be leaps & bounds
> > >beyond the goofy flames and namecalling that seem to plague the
> > >Metallica newsgroup.
> >
> > Well, though I'm no spokesman for this NG, I fully appreciate and
> > thank you for the compliments I infer from your post. :-))
> > --
> > Regards,
> > Tony
>
> It is true (not DISHONEST!!). Other than a few trolls who have
> wandered through this newsgroup this year, overall the IM NG is
> frequented by mature posters who respect each other's opinions and
> type posts with CONTENT.
I distinctly remember Pickle giving credit to the newsgroup >based< on that
original post.
Interesting, that.
> It's too bad that we are letting the pickle get us on edge and
> DEFENSIVE. We have choices: we can continue to play his semantic
> word games or we can ignore him until he is willing to discuss Iron
> Maiden topics in a reasonable, less abrasive manner.
"semantic word games" is a dismissal.
Another choice: "we can read his posts and reply to them with our honest
opinions. He doesn't seem to care about flame...."
It's up to you.
Significant Pickle
> Significant Pickle wrote in message
<01be346e$c3f039a0$cc8b94d1@vanguard>...
>
> >"Wanting to stir things up" is an absolutely correct assumption.
> >
> >Note, however, that none (or very little) of this stirring up is "flame"
on
> >either side for very long.
>
> Please explain WHAT you want to stir up, and why you want this.
> If you say you don't want to stir anything bad, then this would be
dishonest
> because you posted quite a provoking original post.
Yuck.
This is going to sound cliched, but "bad" and "good" are
relative/subjective in this context.
I'm not here to post what you want to hear (read: not here to be
'friendly' and 'nice'). I'm not here to make buddies.
Unfortunately, there are people that will not get anywhere past this point.
I'm here to discuss things honestly (and yes, I've fucked up distinctly on
3 occasions now--damn humans!), and offer a perspective that perhaps has
not been considered.
Tokus
Significant Pickle heeft geschreven in bericht
<01be34f0$763f2e00$4c8d94d1@vanguard>...
>I distinctly remember Pickle giving credit to the newsgroup >based< on that
>original post.
>Interesting, that.
Yeah, interesting. are you a bit scitzofranic (or whatever you spell that
in english)?
You remember Pickle (which can only be you) giving credit to the newsgroup??
cu
Tonnie
Igor Bratic
>
> Significant Pickle heeft geschreven in bericht
> <01be34f0$763f2e00$4c8d94d1@vanguard>...
> >I distinctly remember Pickle giving credit to the newsgroup >based< on that
> >original post.
>
> >Interesting, that.
>
> Yeah, interesting. are you a bit scitzofranic (or whatever you spell that
> in english)
Schizophrenic.
--
Igor
Visit my Iron Maiden Rare Sounds Archive for B-Sides at:
http://members.tripod.com/~in_his_hands/index.html
Go to war again,
Blood is freedom's stain
Tokus
Igor Bratic heeft geschreven in bericht <368BD9...@home.com>...
>Tokus wrote:
>> Yeah, interesting. are you a bit scitzofranic (or whatever you spell
that
>> in english)
>
>Schizophrenic.
You should know it, igor :)
(just kidding of course).
well, it's almost 9:30pm here, so I'll be off for my last drinking session
this year
Everybody have a happy 1999, and may the new year bring us a lot of good
music.
cu
Tonnie
Tony Szablowski
<SNIP!>
>Read the "Honesty in UseNet discussion?" thread.
No. That has nothing to do with the fact that your first post to this
NG was a flame to practically everyone on this NG, fashioning the
posters here as mindless, Maiden-worshipping consumers _and_ also
saying that no one had posted any reasons why Maiden now suck.
Apparently either you couldn't find any msgs with that subject or the
ones you find weren't to your liking. Go back and read through all
the posts from just 5 months ago. In a lot of threads people were
talking about _why_ they didn't like the new Maiden, or the old
Maiden, but you'd have to be following the threads to know what they
were about. Unfortunately that's because Subject lines don't always
reflect the content of the msg(s). I'll conceed you that.
<SNIP!>
>Note very carefully: when someone makes a >point< (as Tom F. >has
done on some occasions now), I respond to the point in kind. >You may
disagree with my point, and that's fine....we could >discuss< it.
<shrug> I would expect you to do that.
--
Regards,
Tony
Tony Szablowski
>> LOL! Ah, but you reply none-the-less, and you show your true
>>colors in doing so!
>
>I've explained in great detail why I point out 'dishonesty' in posts.
To
>give the poster perspective.
>I thought you read my posts?
Methinks you've had one too many posts to read, bud. Calm down now
and take a deep breath. <pause> Good. Now, for some reason you
can't understand why people were insulted by your original post.
We're telling you, but you're not listening. If you feel compelled
to keep prodding the posters here in this NG, please do so in private
email so we can get back to what this NG is about.
--
Regards,
Tony
Tony Szablowski
>Val was pretty smart, but I don't think he would change his name to
>come back to this NG. If it was Val, I'm sure glowsticks would have
>been mentioned by now!
I apologize if anyone was offended by that statement. I actually
don't remember enough of Val's posts to make comment. That was quite
a while ago now. I think he was either getting pushed out or was in
the process of leaving when I first came here.
--
Regards,
Tony
Igor Bratic
Happy new year to you too, and of course, everyone else here. May we
all be sitting around are computers this time next year, worrying about
YK2 bug. <G>
Tony Szablowski
>It is true (not DISHONEST!!). Other than a few trolls who have
>wandered through this newsgroup this year, overall the IM NG is
>frequented by mature posters who respect each other's opinions >and
type posts with CONTENT.
I gotta agree. Not because I'm out to make friends with everyone
here, which I'm not but if it happens that we all get along reasonably
well, then that ain't all that bad. :-)
>It's too bad that we are letting the pickle get us on edge and
>DEFENSIVE. We have choices: we can continue to play his
>semantic word games or we can ignore him until he is willing to
>discuss Iron Maiden topics in a reasonable, less abrasive manner.
Yeah, I seen it coming but I let it happen. I used to belong to a
network here in NJ, USA, of BBSes ran in the state, and we had 2 guys
who wrote posts exactly the type like Sig Pick writes. Same sort of
passive-agressive or whatever the hell it's called, messages. That's
why I wrote the "Enough already folks..." msg. He did a good job of
diverting us away from Maiden, eh? Turned it into the Sig Pick NG.
<chuckle>
--
Regards,
Tony
Curtis Rea
>all be sitting around are computers this time next year, worrying about
>YK2 bug. <G>
Maybe this time next year you will still be trying to find a way to rid
Maiden of Blaze :-). Oh well, I'm off to get pissed now so happy new year
to everyone. Let's hope 1999 is the return of metal.
Curtis
stephen starkey
they're no good anymore.......they're still
the greatest! blah blah blah blah!!
It's all a matter of opinion, folks !!
Nobody is right and nobody is wrong!
Ever heard these?
"beauty is in the eye of the beholder"
or
"different strokes for different folks"
Some people like Cannibal Corpse...
some people lke the Spice Girls.
If you like something ....listen to it.
If not...don't! It's that simple!
Incidently, if so many of you think Maiden
suck now.....and their last 2 albums
are'nt worth a shit.....why do you post
in an Iron Maiden newsgroup?
Maiden should be a dead issue for you
people! Why waste your time?
Don't you have anything better to do than
Blaze-bashing?
BTW...I am not a sheep either....I listen to the newer Maiden material
because I like
it! So, maybe you think I'm crazy for liking
it....but I'll bet you have something in your
collection that I think sucks shit as well!
See my point? It works both ways.
Tom Fletcher
>Tom Fletcher <t...@fletch05.globalnet.co.uk> wrote in article
><76fvsk$9uc$4...@newnews.global.net.uk>...
>>
>> >"Wanting to stir things up" is an absolutely correct assumption.
>> >
>> >Note, however, that none (or very little) of this stirring up is "flame"
>on
>> >either side for very long.
>>
>> Please explain WHAT you want to stir up, and why you want this.
>> If you say you don't want to stir anything bad, then this would be
>dishonest
>> because you posted quite a provoking original post.
>
>Yuck.
>This is going to sound cliched, but "bad" and "good" are
>relative/subjective in this context.
Hahaha. What is the problem? Can you not point out the reasons? If not, you
are just here to be a parasite to all of us.
Shame on you.
>I'm not here to post what you want to hear (read: not here to be
>'friendly' and 'nice'). I'm not here to make buddies.
I don't want you to post what I want you to hear, or that would be shit. You
think we should think like you, that is what your problem is. (If you want
content, and backup, it IS readily available. Maybe you should goto
www.dejanews.com and re-read everything you have posted. Are the things you
have said fair to the people who like Maidens latest releases?
Answer : NO
>Unfortunately, there are people that will not get anywhere past this point.
>
>I'm here to discuss things honestly (and yes, I've fucked up distinctly on
>3 occasions now--damn humans!), and offer a perspective that perhaps has
>not been considered.
Yes, and your attempts to put me down on numerous occasions does not bother
me one bit. The reason I reply to your posts are to show you I am not just
some flamer who wants to piss people off (or whatever you think I am or
thought I was) I do not NEED to do this, as your comments do not bother me.
Significant Pickle
> Significant Pickle wrote in message
> <SNIP!>
> >Read the "Honesty in UseNet discussion?" thread.
>
>
> No. That has nothing to do with the fact that your first post to this
> NG was a flame to practically everyone on this NG, fashioning the
> posters here as mindless, Maiden-worshipping consumers _and_ also
> saying that no one had posted any reasons why Maiden now suck.
I've explained this (without changing the content of my original post).
If you don't want to read what I post, ignore me, killfile me, and we're
done. Simple.
Significant Pickle
> >It's too bad that we are letting the pickle get us on edge and
> >DEFENSIVE. We have choices: we can continue to play his
> >semantic word games or we can ignore him until he is willing to
> >discuss Iron Maiden topics in a reasonable, less abrasive manner.
>
> Yeah, I seen it coming but I let it happen. I used to belong to a
> network here in NJ, USA, of BBSes ran in the state, and we had 2 guys
> who wrote posts exactly the type like Sig Pick writes. Same sort of
> passive-agressive or whatever the hell it's called, messages. That's
> why I wrote the "Enough already folks..." msg. He did a good job of
> diverting us away from Maiden, eh? Turned it into the Sig Pick NG.
> <chuckle>
Why not let them come to their own conclusion?
Aaron Burrough
steve...@webtv.net (stephen starkey) wrote:
> Incidently, if so many of you think Maiden
> suck now.....and their last 2 albums
> are'nt worth a shit.....why do you post
> in an Iron Maiden newsgroup?
Because most of us like what Iron Fucking Maiden *used* to be. I come here
to discuss pre-TXF albums, keep up to date on the latest rumors and
happenings eg. firing of band members that should be fired(i wont mention
any names), and to express my opinions of Maiden old and new freely. There
is no law that says you have to like The X-Craptor, Virtual Turd, Blaze
"Crash Bandicoot" Bayley, or even Janick in order to read and/or post
here. Fact is you and the other babies(Hue)need to get out of your mothers
twats like the rest of the world did 10 years ago because this is the way
USENET and the internet in general work, and as long as free speech exists
on the internet it's gonna remain this way. So maybe you guys who can't
handle other peoples opinions such as the disliking of the weaker albums
or the horrible replacements Mr. 'Arry has chosen should just unsubscribe
from this NG or better yet do yourself and everyone else who's not
interested in hearing you guys whine and cry about posts not being EXACTLY
AS YOU WOULD LIKE THEM TO BE a favor and just terminate your ISP
connection(your ISP is garbage anyway, Steve). Whoo, you'll even save
yourself an extra $20 every month so you can buy new albums(just because
they say Iron Maiden on the cover), remastered cd's, remastered videos,
remastered LIMITED EDITION vinyl recordings, Eddie underwear, Blaze Bayley
baseball caps, Ed Hunter 1, 2, 3(The Spawn of Eddie!), Eddie enhanced AOL
software, tickets to concerts that are cancelled because of "Blaze's
allergies"(what a geek), etc.
--
Aaron
"Iron Maiden's gonna get ya no matter how far!" - Steve Harris
stephen starkey
the very thing you thrive on in this ng!
It allows you to be an ass, and go about
attacking someone .... to show how very
smart you are.....and how stupid we all are! Thank you for setting me
straight!
I'll go burn my 2 most recent Maiden albums (with Blaze).....because
it's not "cool" to like Maiden anymore!
PS. It's kind of funny that you attacked me
for the very same thing you were defending....the right to post an
opinion
freely and openly! You just did'nt like what I had to say.....so you got
pissed!
Peter R. Cook
>So maybe you guys who can't handle other peoples opinions such as the >disliking of the weaker albums
> or the horrible replacements Mr. 'Arry has chosen should just
> unsubscribe from this NG or better yet do yourself and everyone else
> who's not interested in hearing you guys whine and cry about posts not > being EXACTLY AS YOU WOULD LIKE THEM TO BE a favor and just terminate > your ISP connection
Its you who cant handle other peoples opinions. I have my own
opinions, you have yours. I dont give a damn what yours are and
you shouldnt give a damn what mine are.
Start stickin a IMO before your opinions.
-Peter
Tom Fletcher
>I apologize if anyone was offended by that statement. I actually
>don't remember enough of Val's posts to make comment. That was quite
>a while ago now. I think he was either getting pushed out or was in
>the process of leaving when I first came here.
Valerian would fit in fine to what is going on now. When he left about six
months ago, most people on this NG were "Blaze is brilliant" posters. Now it
is the exact opposite, something that Valerian believed in.