Who ruined metal?
Michael D. Bruce
>ejge...@bu.edu (Eric German) writes:
>>Who did more to ruin metal, Nirvana, Green Day, or Metallica?
>Nirvana and Green Day aren't metal, so they don't count. As far as
>Metallica is concerned, if they don't have a good album this spring,
>they'll be finished. Most of my friends agree that they need to put out a
>SERIOUS kick ass album to get some respect back. We'll see what happens.
I have to disagree with part of this. Even tho Nirvana and Green Day may
not be classified as heavy metal, they did affect it, unfortunately. I
agree with the Metallica part tho, after going to a Puppets concert and a
concert after the release of the last albumn, there was a huge difference.
Eric J. Wheelock
>Who did more to ruin metal, Nirvana, Green Day, or Metallica?
>
>
1)Nirvana isn't Metal in the least.
2)Green Day isn't Metal in the least.
3)Metallica could not have ruined Metal because they helped re-invent it!
"Who ruined Metal"? A: Bon Jovi
========================================
Eric J. Wheelock (sa...@onramp.net)
IRC : Athanaric (PGP Available)
========================================
Ming C.Fong
>Nirvana and Green Day aren't metal, so they don't count.
They are not metal, true, but they are the ones who ruined. They drew
people to the alternative/grunge scene, who would have otherwise been
metalheads.
JMedley84
(WaterWare) writes:
>Thankfully we have Slayer and Pantera taking a stand for metal, and
>they'll see to it that metal stays alive.
>
>
add to this list the German Power Metal Bands and Noise Records. They are
bring great classic metal to the states.
JACK
jason michael bodak
Nirvana and Green Day did not ruin metal because they aren't metal, even
though they lured away a lot of people from metal. But I say that if those
people don't like metal now because of Nirvana and Green Day, then they were
never true metal fans to begin with, and the metal world is better off
without those fucks. Hell, I think Nirvana's last real album, _In Utero_,
was less mainstream than a lot of albums being put out by metal bands today
(Metallica and Megadeth, for example). And if you are going to rip on Green
Day, do so because they are destroying punk music, along with Offspring, but
then again, I could care less.
If anyone is responsible for hurting metal, it would be Bon Jovi and Poison,
who started the whole "glam" phase of metal.
--Jason Bodak
Miss...@gnn.com
Def Leppard, Motley Crue and any other banshee wailing glam rock
speedguitar posers were lumped into the "category". For real
metal, I will listen to Black Sabbath or Judas Priest anytime. For
what we called "acid rock" it was and always will be Led Zeppelin.
However, my favorites now are Kyuss and White Zombie, both of
which incorporate all the above (although I think White Zombie is
the ultimate discometal band of all time...I can see it being
rated on American Bandstand) while still being considered
"alternative" as opposed to metal....
"...........and all my cares
go up in smoke" - Cheech and Chong
Derf
>
> jason michael bodak wrote:
> >
> > If anyone is responsible for hurting metal, it would be Bon Jovi and Poison,
> > who started the whole "glam" phase of metal.
>
> guitars and pretending to know how to use them. It's also very sad that
> this planet can produce enough plastic people to support plastic
> musicians.
but I thought you liked GLAM METAL Chopper... I mean, you like metallica...
:)
(and anyone who's heard devils dance and 2 by 4 will agree, or be totaly
ignorant of what metallica should sound like!)
I was very upset to realize Metallica broke up, and some pansy pissweak
bastards decided to call themselves METALLICA...
thank god for kill'em'all on tape!
Derf
>
> jason michael bodak wrote:
> >
> > If anyone is responsible for hurting metal, it would be Bon Jovi and Poison,
> > who started the whole "glam" phase of metal.
>
> Glam Metal is a nice way of describing transvestite slime wielding
> guitars and pretending to know how to use them. It's also very sad that
> this planet can produce enough plastic people to support plastic
> musicians.
HEY HEY! (this is a test!)
I found it... hehehe..
cool.
Chopper
Chopper
>
> but I thought you liked GLAM METAL Chopper... I mean, you like metallica...
> :)
>
> (and anyone who's heard devils dance and 2 by 4 will agree, or be totaly
> ignorant of what metallica should sound like!)
>
> I was very upset to realize Metallica broke up, and some pansy pissweak
> bastards decided to call themselves METALLICA...
>
> thank god for kill'em'all on tape!
Ahhhh, I like Metallica (Kill 'em All, Master of Puppets, Ride the
Lightning), even a lot of their covers, but not their new stuff.
Their minds have been poisoned. Next they'll change their name to
Metalliclowns!
ironman
People would then call us true metalheads trendy for liking it. I say
fuck MTV and the like. Metal is great, and should not be exploited in
such a disgusting manner. Metal has not been ruined, but has instead
been made better, now that it is off the air.
ironman
Henrik Hyyppä
>
>In article <4c5dic$9...@news.bu.edu>, ejge...@bu.edu (Eric German) wrote:
Time.
Henrik Hyyppa "How much more black it could be?" - Spinal Tap
Finland
email: henrik...@utu.fi
K.C.
On 2 Jan 1996, Eric J. Wheelock wrote:
> 3)Metallica could not have ruined Metal because they helped re-invent it!
>
Do you mean that Metallica redefined metal in the early eighties? That
is wrong, metallica did not redifine metal, it was venom who created the
'speed, thrash, death, black' genre.
K.C.
Stoney Maloney
> Who did more to ruin metal, Nirvana, Green Day, or Metallica?
What the hell is that supposed to mean? Metal isn't dead! In fact, I
personally know a lot of people who still like metal. And bands like the
ones you mentioned are not responsible for anything else than an addition
to the various genres of metal that already existed. BTW, I can understand
you mentioning Green Day and Nirvana, those being the younger bands,, but
Metallica?
Keep on banging that head
Tony
--
Tony De Laender, Brugge, Belgium
tdela...@unicall.be
"There are things that are real and things that are unreal,
inbetween are doors."
Eric J. Wheelock
I may have spoken too soon here. I agree that Venom opened the gates for
Black Metal but Metallica's "Ride The Lightening" was a landmark album which
(at least speaking personally), turned me on to Death Metal.
Ron Levine
> On 2 Jan 1996, Eric J. Wheelock wrote:
>
> > 3)Metallica could not have ruined Metal because they helped re-invent it!
> >
>
> Do you mean that Metallica redefined metal in the early eighties? That
> is wrong, metallica did not redifine metal, it was venom who created the
> 'speed, thrash, death, black' genre.
Venom, Diamond Head, Motorhead, et al. deserve that credit, but Metallica
_did_ bring this sound to the US. I think it's fair to say that they
_helped_ re-invent it.
Ron
--
Control for smilers can't be bought, the solar garlic starts to rot
Was it for this my life I sought? Maybe so and maybe not... (Phish)
While you are living, be free. (Budgie)
Bozzetto
Oh...we'd have a big list..to start with Grunge Bands..to continue with
rap and funky-metal..and to finish with those people who use to mix metal
and shits like techno music..bleeeeeaaahh....
UP THE TRUE METAL!
Defenders of the faith..
..Anita and Irene
fucking sinner
> However, my favorites now are Kyuss...
yes!!!! They are the greatest band that has come around in years! Too bad
they are gone now.
rdw
1.4.96 ten years without the mighty phil lynott. long live thin lizzy in
the hearts of those who know!!!!!
Tran Vo
> Actually metal was ruined in the '80's, when bands such as Poison,
> Def Leppard, Motley Crue and any other banshee wailing glam rock
> speedguitar posers were lumped into the "category".
No no no, NOT Def Leppard!
The day (Jan 8th '91) I learned about Steve Clark's death (r.i.p. Steve)
was the SAME DAY when I listened on the radio for the first time to
"Smells like teen spirit" which is the grunge key song that started
to *kill* hard rock and heavy metal IMO... and Kurt later..., damn that
song! At that time, there were a big competition between that cheesy song
and Ozzy's "No more tears" on my local rock-station (Montreal CHOM 97.7FM).
Nirvana finally won the battle, and a little bit later, lots of alternative-
grunge-punk-call-it-what-you-want bands were born.
There were tons of metal bands in the '80's! Metal was ruined in the early
'90's, not in the '80's.
> For real
> metal, I will listen to Black Sabbath or Judas Priest anytime. For
I'm not a "real" metal fan but I can easily listen to anything from
Ozzy Osbourne and Judas Priest!
D.T. Tran Vo __ ___ Stay on course
vo...@jsp.UMontreal.CA / `-' ( ,, Feel the force
Computer Science |[=====[|||DEFLEPPARD|||[::} C a r e f u l
University of Montreal \__.-._\ `` what you say
Leonid Schwartz
: Now that Metalliclowns have sold out, and are only interested in the big
: bucks to be made from the people they couldnt reach before,
Word.
: I fear that metal is dying. For me, at least.
Just remind to everyone, that while metallica can still be called META, metal
is much more than just metallica.
: Cronos Mantas and Abaddon WERE VENOM. MADE VENOM. but as soon as Cronos left
: it went to shit. the two other line up's were try hard, but NOT classic Venom
: Sure, Jim hickey and Mike claire were good guitarists on Calm before the
: storm, but cronos just didnt have that feel. And that AxeMan on Prome Evil,
: well... Bollocks.. Not Cronos, yet he tried.. They lost the true sound, and
: died in the process.
Have you heard THE WAYSTED LAND? It's not like their classic, yet worth
checking.
--Leonid
K.C.
On 4 Jan 1996, Eric J. Wheelock wrote:
> I may have spoken too soon here. I agree that Venom opened the gates for
> Black Metal but Metallica's "Ride The Lightening" was a landmark album which
> (at least speaking personally), turned me on to Death Metal.
Metallica is no where near death metal.
K.C.
Dan Gamez
----------------------
K.>
K.> On Wed, 3 Jan 1996, Chopper wrote:
> Glam Metal is a nice way of describing transvestite slime wielding
> guitars and pretending to know how to use them. It's also very sad that
> this planet can produce enough plastic people to support plastic
> musicians.
K.> .0005% as much as they did. As if you're a better musician. Fool.
K.> K.C.
I think someone has to much lip stick on.....
... Reality-ometer: [\........] Hmmph! Thought so...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12:Fantasy
ÄÄÄ[ THE V.O.I.C.E. ON-LINE ]ÄÄÄ[ 914-664-1844 / 1923 / 2412 / 6686 / 6765 ]ÄÄÄ
Eric J. Wheelock
"K.C." <k_c...@alcor.concordia.ca> wrote:
>
>
>On Wed, 3 Jan 1996, Chopper wrote:
>
>> Glam Metal is a nice way of describing transvestite slime wielding
>> guitars and pretending to know how to use them. It's also very sad that
>> this planet can produce enough plastic people to support plastic
>> musicians.
>
>
>
That has to be the dorkiest comeback I've seen. Better musician? You know the
musicanship in "Talk Dirty To Me" is just so awesome! If you think good music
is "selling records and making money" only then your a sad fellow. I agree
with Chopper 100%. Are you sure your initials shouldn't be "C.C."? Hehe
K.C.
On Fri, 5 Jan 1996, Derf wrote:
> I will no longer wait in anticipation for any new albums, and will , as
> Mantas said on stage, Stay at home and listen to my fucking albums..
> Who do I blame for the death of Metallica? JASON NEWSTAID.
You don't know that for sure, therefore you cannot blame him. For all
you know, it was the other three who wanted a change of style.
K.C.
Daz Ryder
> I was the sort of person who would never dared mention Nirvana and Metallica
> in the same breath. Nirvana, to me, was radio music.
Radio music? - just to get a point on "global perspective" across here - I
guess it's safe to say most metal fans in the U.K. don't listen to radio for
metal - it just doesn't get played here......dig out the C.D's.....
> Now that Metalliclowns have sold out, and are only interested in the big
> bucks to be made from the people they couldnt reach before, I fear that metal
> is dying. For me, at least.
I find this a bit sad, and a bit dis-heartening myself. So Metallica have
gone a bit soft. So fuckin' what! Thay are also getting older (gee, is that
a coincidence - Ozzy too is gettin' on a bit, and put out a "softer" album)
Metal IS NOT Metallica. How many metal bands are there out there? - Who knows!
Why not move with the times and pick up on some new bands that are playing
"Good Solid Metal" if thats what you want. If you really like the sound of
vintage Metallica, then sure, they are gonna disappoint you. Thats life.
EVERYTHING changes - bands sounds included - if they didn't, the Record
Companies would dump them for not "Progressing".
The music/metal scene is constantly evolving and going through cycles anyhow..
chances are, in five years time, the "Kill 'em All" sound will be back in!
No one "RUINED" metal, it just diversified.
RAGE ON!!
..later..
--
Daz Ryder - ADRENALIN KICK
James R Mullis
On Tue, 9 Jan 1996, Derf wrote:
True, I dont know it for sure.. but I doubt that they would have changed so
much from one album to the next had cliff not died.
derf
Jason Newsted? He didn't write any of the damn songs on either album he
played on! Blame it on the real culprits: Ulrich and Hetfield.
Derf
Derf
>
> In article <4cj3a3$n...@ias2.ichange.com> "derf"@[203.19.28.66] "Derf" writes:
>
> > I was the sort of person who would never dared mention Nirvana and Metallica
> > in the same breath. Nirvana, to me, was radio music.
>
> Radio music? - just to get a point on "global perspective" across here - I
> guess it's safe to say most metal fans in the U.K. don't listen to radio for
> metal - it just doesn't get played here......dig out the C.D's.....
Well, I guess my point didn't quite get across.. I don't consider Nirvana to
be metal. We get it on the radio over here all the time...
>
> > Now that Metalliclowns have sold out, and are only interested in the big
> > bucks to be made from the people they couldnt reach before, I fear that metal
> > is dying. For me, at least.
>
> I find this a bit sad, and a bit dis-heartening myself. So Metallica have
> gone a bit soft. So fuckin' what! Thay are also getting older (gee, is that
> a coincidence - Ozzy too is gettin' on a bit, and put out a "softer" album)
So a group goes soft, changes their style, makes crap albums, and you expect
the true fans not to notice, or accept it?? the name doesn't mean didly if
the music doesn't live up to it. What I liked about Metallica was their 'We
do what we want, not what You want' attitude. Now it seems they can put out
any crap songs and the people will lap it up.
>
> Metal IS NOT Metallica. How many metal bands are there out there? - Who knows!
> Why not move with the times and pick up on some new bands that are playing
> "Good Solid Metal" if thats what you want. If you really like the sound of
> vintage Metallica, then sure, they are gonna disappoint you. Thats life.
> EVERYTHING changes - bands sounds included - if they didn't, the Record
> Companies would dump them for not "Progressing".
Unfortunately, you are correct.. But I'd expect things to change for the
better?
Like I said in a message to someone else, I know metallica aren't the be all
and end all of metal. but to me they were a MAJOR part in what I considered
metal. This new shit doesnt do anything for me, and that is dissapointing.
Derf
Chopper
>
> On 7 Jan 1996, Eric J. Wheelock wrote:
>
> > That has to be the dorkiest comeback I've seen. Better musician? You know the
> > musicanship in "Talk Dirty To Me" is just so awesome! If you think good music
> > is "selling records and making money" only then your a sad fellow. I agree
> > with Chopper 100%. Are you sure your initials shouldn't be "C.C."? Hehe
> >
>
> ability. YOu're trying to say you and many others on this board are
> better guitarists than them? if so, then it is YOU who are the sad
> fellow. I'd like to see you write a song 2% as good as any of their
> songs, on any of their albums. It's easy to talk shit, but hard to act
> upon what you are saying.
Fucking moron. Who the fuck ever said anything about being able to play
guitar better than the glam clowns. We're talking about TRUE musicians in
REAL groups being able to play better than the plastic pricks you seem
to listen to. So go and shove Poison and all the rest of them up your
arse.
K.C.
On Wed, 10 Jan 1996, Chopper wrote:
> Fucking moron. Who the fuck ever said anything about being able to play
> guitar better than the glam clowns. We're talking about TRUE musicians in
> REAL groups being able to play better than the plastic pricks you seem
> to listen to. So go and shove Poison and all the rest of them up your
> arse.
Who? well, immature pricks like yourself who can't hold a mature
discussion, and obviously know nothing about music. I was talking about
all those little shitheads who think it's cool (including yourself) to
simply bash glam bands ( I don't like calling them glam, hard rock is a
better word to describe them) just because of their image, and not taking
into consideration their music. I bet most of you listened to them when
they were popular in the mid to late eighties. Now that they aren't
"in", they are being looked down upon just because it's "not cool".
Those people are the real posers. Next time you think about posting on a
newsgroup, try to act a little over 12 years old. Although you probably
like having things shoved up your arse, you should try to shove a Poison
album up your ass, and listen to one, before critisizing it.
K.C.
a91...@zipi.fi.upm.es
>Stoney Maloney wrote:
>>
>> In article <4c5dic$9...@news.bu.edu>, ejge...@bu.edu (Eric German) wrote:
>>
>> > Who did more to ruin metal, Nirvana, Green Day, or Metallica?
I think that's not the question. Metal , or Rock, or whatever you want to
name it,is not dead.
I think the real question is:
Who ruined music?
And the answer is very easy: Techno-disco-dance-pop-shit music.
Don't fight with other rock fans, fight against the real enemy.
Charly
Derf
> Who? well, immature pricks like yourself who can't hold a mature
> discussion, and obviously know nothing about music. I was talking about
> all those little shitheads who think it's cool (including yourself) to
> simply bash glam bands ( I don't like calling them glam, hard rock is a
> better word to describe them) just because of their image, and not taking
> into consideration their music. I bet most of you listened to them when
> they were popular in the mid to late eighties. Now that they aren't
> "in", they are being looked down upon just because it's "not cool".
> Those people are the real posers. Next time you think about posting on a
> newsgroup, try to act a little over 12 years old. Although you probably
> like having things shoved up your arse, you should try to shove a Poison
> album up your ass, and listen to one, before critisizing it.
Poison? BWHAHAHAHAHAH!!
In the mid to late eighties, I was still listening to metallica, and shitting
on glam crap.. now I listen to other 'real' metal, and shit on glam crap.
I still dont see how, by not liking poison, we all think we can play guitar
and write better songs than metallica. Which is what you said.
Chopper
> === BLAH BLAH BLAH DRIBBLE DRIBBLE DRIBBLE PURGED!
>
> Do I have to repeat it? yes, you are an immature fool, judging from your
> pathetic posts, you hardly fit in the same age category as me.I suggest you
> ignore my other posts to you as well, unless you want to be shot down again,
> and made out to look like more of a stupid idiot than you already are.
> Obviously none of this makes sense to you since nothing makes sense to
> someone who is not intelligent enough to understand simple statements.
Yawn.... So were you molested by a poodle at a young age?
K.C.
On 15 Jan 1996, SeXeCuTiNr wrote:
> rap ruined heavy metal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
Rap has nothing to do with Heavy Metal, and therefore cannot ruin it.
The fan base is completely different.
K.C.
WHO...@iac.net
metalheads let it go.
I'm proud to be metal and i'll never give it up.
who cares what the record companies or mtv has to say about it?
Metal was here before mtv and will carry on as long as we do.
Hail.
Dawn in Cincinnati
Dermot Frost
>The camel boy scribbled:
[snip]
>>> Non-intelligent, stupid lyrics sell...
>That always been the case. 1950 or 60 something - 'splish splash I
>was taking a bath...' How's that for non-intelligent and stupid. Or
>even 'The Ace Of Spades', Motorhead. That, as far as I can tell, is
>the only song of theirs that isn't trying to put across a point, and
>yet it's the most famous and the only one that gets played.
Not to disagree with you but what is the point of Snaggletooth or
has Motorhead any more of a point than Ace of Spades? Still there all
a much better listen than Smells like Gun Powder.
[snip]
>It's the older bands
>and artists that still sound different and are noticeable from the
>crowd. I haven't heard any AC/DC or Bruce Dickinson or Ozzy Osbourne
>or Lemmy Kilminster soundalikes (mostly 'cos most blokes can't sing
>like that without ripping their throats out, I think)
Hang on a sec, when I listened to the new Maiden single I could have
sworn it was Bruce Dickonson singing.
>Long live Motorhead (Lemmy's 50 years old and still going strong)
Amen to that. :)
--
Who are you to criticize, to judge and burn the tribes? Andreas Kisser
The world will be extinct and your flesh will rot with mine. Sepultura
Dermot Frost aka Hollowman aka dfr...@maths.tcd.ie Nomad
http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dfrost/
Derf
>
> On Sat, 13 Jan 1996, Derf wrote:
>
> > I still dont see how, by not liking poison, we all think we can play guitar
> > and write better songs than metallica. Which is what you said.
>
> that musicians who play softer music play like shit just becuase it's not
> heavy. Nor am I talking about Poison specifically. That doesn't mean I
> refer to all of you. Get your facts straight before you post. It's
> rather annoying to see little punks bash softer bands just because they
> only like heavier material. They obviously have no reasoning behind
> their pathetic statements.
>
> K.C.
Look here. You keep to the right fucken topic, for a start.
I said that metallica, who used to be HEAVY have sold out. I didnt start
bashing glam shit. You stick your damn nose in and tell me that because I
rekon it's shit, See if I could do better. then you started on the fucken
glam shit. STICK IT UP YOURE GLAMMY ARSE!
I've got no reason to pretend that I dont like glam. I DETEST IT! Alright?
And I think it's 'rather annoying' to have to wittness your complete and
total pompous shit.
K.C.
On Sat, 20 Jan 1996, Derf wrote:
> Look here. You keep to the right fucken topic, for a start.
> I said that metallica, who used to be HEAVY have sold out. I didnt start
> bashing glam shit. You stick your damn nose in and tell me that because I
> rekon it's shit, See if I could do better. then you started on the fucken
> glam shit. STICK IT UP YOURE GLAMMY ARSE!
I was keeping to the topic until the stupid dickhead that you are replied
to one of my messages. You look here....The original post from someone
who wanted to know "who ruined metal", and a list of replies went on,
people replied metallica, rap, Glam, whatever, I defended the fact that
glam, did not ruin metal, just as I defended the fact that rap didn't
ruin metal, and metallica. Maybe that will enlighten you, due to your
pathetic memory.
> I've got no reason to pretend that I dont like glam. I DETEST IT! Alright?
I don't give a flying fuck if you like it or not, "Glam" does great
without fucking retards as yourself.
> And I think it's 'rather annoying' to have to wittness your complete and
> total pompous shit.
How fucking stupid could you be. If you don't want to witness anything,
then DON'T REPLY TO MY POSTS, BECAUSE I SURE AS HELL WILL KEEP ON MAKING
YOU LOOK LIKE A COMPLETE IDIOT.
I love bashing morons like this guy.
K.C.
Seinstra FJ
> How can you possibly compare bands like Manowar and Pantera with carp
>like poison and skid row (no caps on purpose, they dont deserve it). How
>fucking obscure does a band have to be to be acceptable to you. What, after
>100,000 albums they are sell-outs? Fuck you! Wherever did you get the idea
>that these bands (also the others mentioned later, like Biohazard and
>Sepultura) lack lyrical depth? I refer you to "Spirit Horse of The Cherokee"
>by Manowar, "Shedding Skin" by Pantera, "How it Is" by Biohazard, and
>"Biotech is Godzilla" by Sepultura. Do you fucking homework homeboy.
Hmm... I do have to admit that I was really in a bad mood when I was
typing my last message, and I understand that lots of you out there
think I used my axe a little too much... And when I read back my mes-
sage, I guess that's true...
But to come back to the bands I mentioned: I never said that I do not
see a band like Sepultura as a true metal band... I used them in a list
of bands that will certainly get their albums spread all over the world,
to compare them with bands that will never (?) achieve that, even though
lots of fans want nothing but to get their albums. And as I said: that's
where the money issue comes in... IMO _not_ very metal.
Still I want to make one point that strikes me every time I see or hear
bands that have become popular in the nineties (including Pantera, but
not Sepultura):
These 'new' bands seem to me very much like spreaders of hatred. They
not only play aggressive, but also act and speak aggressive. And here's
where my blood starts cooking...
And please don't tell me that none of you out there sees the same thing;
it has become a standard to act cool, talk cool, sound cool. And that
is something that should not be part of metal in the first place. And
anyone who really has done his/her homework (going back to the origins
of metal in the late sixties!) can see that.
It's the spreading of negative aggression that has become standard,
while metal was about aggression, but with a positive twist.
And maybe it's not the purpose of those bands to 'spread aggression'
(actually I can't even believe that they want that), but still this
aspect is taken over by the 'fans'. I can feel an aggressive attitude
from fans towards each other when I go to concerts, someting that never
happened about 4 - 5 years ago. Sure, there were some fights here and
there, but not as often as I see it happen these days. And that really
makes me sick...
Only when I go to those 'obscure' bands (like you say), I can feel the
same atmosphere; and _no_ cool or aggressive thing whatsoever...
For about 30 years metal could do without meaningless aggression or a
so-called cool attitude, but within the last few years exactly _that_
has changed. Sure in the early eighties some of those make-up bands
tried to be 'cool', but as a reaction to that thrash-metal emerged and
kicked out that shit as hard as possible.
So, as I see it, lots of those 'new' bands have created something that
is new, but not in the line in which 'true' metal evolves. I think it's
only a side-step, just like punk-music was, and maybe that's why almost
none of the 'older' metal fans are really into those 'new' bands.
I may be wrong here, but I really hope not, 'cause in that case metal
really is heading in the wrong direction...
Frank.
PS: One of my fav. bands happens to be Sepultura, but even here I see
a change in the wrong direction... and lots of the older fans will
say the same thing.
PS2: Someone called Manowar "The Clowns Of Metal". That is exactly the
way I see them. And yes: I am aware of the lyrical content of their
music and eventhough they can play very well every now and then,
they are not the prototype of a metal band. They're funny, and it
really amazes me that so many people take them so very serious...
"All men play on 10"... Yeah, sure... :)
s00...@desire.wright.edu
staples of the industry, such as Motley Crue, Dokken, Whitesnake, Anthrax,
Ratt, etc. changed their lineup or broke up entirely, these are multiplatinum
bands. Now we have a few million albums not wrth listening to anymore
A band such as GNR comes along and becomes bigger than Jesus, all of a
sudden, 5 more bands come along that sound just like them, people got tired of
the same old sound.
Then, there is the domino effect, first there was David Lee Roth, Vince
Neal, copied him, Bret Michaels, copied Vince, Jani Lane copied Bret, and the
singer for Southgang copied Jani, that got stale.
Finally there was commercialization of the metal sound. Bands like
Firehouse, Trixter, and Slaughter came along and were metal only in the
academic sense. No matter what you may think of these bands, they were not the
reason that people started listening to metal in the first place. Eventually,
even the most die-hard metal fans turned away from this sound and started
listening to death-metal or alternative,(some even went to country, heatrhens).
The industry then realized that they could never exploit death-metal,
but alternative could be. Now look at alternative, Weezer, Goo Goo Dolls, 7
Mary 3, etc, are all watered down versions of the roots of alternative, as a
matter of fact, most of the new alternative bands were pop metal a few years
ago.
Don't worry my friends the alternative revolution is at a crossroads
and will fade away, what comes next? Only time will tell. Just be glad that
you can listen to what you want and aren't one who goes with the trends, but
you can stay true to yourself, that is quite an accomplishment in this day and
age.
Hang tight.
Derf
>
> On Wed, 17 Jan 1996, Chopper wrote:
>
> > Yawn.... So were you molested by a poodle at a young age?
>
> That alone tells me(and I'm sure many others) how much of a child you
> really are. By the way, if you seek people who you can relate to by your
> above comment, try alt.beast.sex or something of the sort.
>
> K.C.
and you should be in alt.i.have.no.dick.and.a.big.head
get off your high horse, you arse.
K.C.
> > Nope, that's hardly what I said. I was talking about people who think
> > that musicians who play softer music play like shit just becuase it's not
> > heavy. Nor am I talking about Poison specifically. That doesn't mean I
> > refer to all of you. Get your facts straight before you post. It's
> > rather annoying to see little punks bash softer bands just because they
> > only like heavier material. They obviously have no reasoning behind
> > their pathetic statements.
> >
>
> Who ever said anything about not likeing softer bands??? I for one also
> listen to bands such as CCR and Uriah Heep and like them fine. I just
> dont like listening to crap. "Get your facts straight before you post."
Reread my last post, just above yours, if you can't read, then get
someone to read it to you. Who said I was reffering to you specifically?
K.C.
Henrik Hyyppä
>
>PS2: Someone called Manowar "The Clowns Of Metal". That is exactly the
> way I see them. And yes: I am aware of the lyrical content of their
> music and eventhough they can play very well every now and then,
> they are not the prototype of a metal band. They're funny, and it
> really amazes me that so many people take them so very serious...
> "All men play on 10"... Yeah, sure... :)
... ours go to 11. -Spinal Tap
Henrik Hyyppa "How much more black it could be?" - Spinal Tap
Finland
email: henrik...@utu.fi
Seinstra FJ
>>The reason why metal started was because some angry persons (Black Sabbath
>>(?)) put the anger in their music, like it was never done before. So the
>I don't see anything about the s/t Black Sabbath album that is particularly
>angry. A lot of it sounds depressed or narrative,
Hmm well, again this is a matter of debate, but I think we have to listen to
this music through the ears of a person 25 years ago. As it may not sound very
heavy/angry at this moment, 25 years ago it was revolutionary.
>I think anger in heavy metal was borrowed from punk. I hear anger in heavy
>metal in stuff like Iron Maiden's "Charlotte The Harlot"
In the same vein: most _new_ fans can't even hear the anger here...
>>To create heavy music, but to write lix that are in no way opposed to
>>something (whatever that may be), just doesn't make any sense. It's stupid.
>
>Lyrically, bands like In The Woods..., Emperor, Mayhem, Celtic Frost, and Venom
>even aren't really opposed to anything. The bands themselves (except CF and
>Venom) may be individually strongly anti-Christian but listening to the music
>and reading the lyrics, you really wouldn't know because they never mention
>religion or any sense of being against anything. Is this stupid?
Well, I'm not too much into the new wave of black metal (In The Woods... and
Emperor), but what I do know about a lot of these bands doesn't seem to be
very 'true' metal either (I mentioned Burzum myself, as an example). Lots of
these bands/projects use their gained popularity to spread their propaganda,
which IMO is too unintelligent to even bother to stand up against.
To come back to the lyrical contents: I do know that lots of people in metal
are also more or less intrigued by the darker side of life, or the unknown -
be it spiritualism, ancient history or fantasy writings. It's not too strange
that this will be found in the lyrical content. You can see this in bands
like Iron Maiden, Metal Church, Amorphis etc etc... Too many to mention...
And even though I had not mentioned this before (deliberately, too keep it
all as simple as possible), I see this as the other main component of metal.
But even though I seem to be more interested in bands like these, a band
totally based on that 'darker side' can never be seen as a standard metal
band... It is not really opposed to something, but more or less shows an in-
terest in something other than normal; a 'normal situation' very much hated
by lots of metal-heads. Maybe we can call this the escapist part of metal.
>>The fact that some bands still do that, can only make us smile. Do I have to
>>mention Twisted Sister, Pretty Boy Floyd, Tygertails etc, etc?
>
>What's wrong with smiling? When I'm in a happy mood I like flipping on the
>Helloween, Gamma Ray, Scorpions, Accept, Def Leppard, Raven, Dream Theater,
>the more happy, uplifting stuff. Nothing wrong with that.
Nope, there's nothing wrong with smiling, but I meant to say that most metal-
heads don't even take those bands (the ones I mentioned) very serious.
And ehmm, do you really think Dream Theater is so very happy all the time?
>I agree with the sentiment but not in your approach to it.
Well, I can live with that. I do have to admit that my approach might look a
bit clinical (scientific, if you like) but I have no problem with that...
To call it arrogant (like someone did) is IMO a little strange; in that case
any statement that one doesn't agree on could be called arrogant.
>Commercials tend to be boring, and I am usually against socially conscious
>lyrics) except through metaphor in form of a fantasy narrative or something
>along those lines because by directly stating "you should think this way or
>that way" can get annoying when you're indulging in an escapist sort of
>recreation as listening to your headphones.
You got it right there: "you should think this way or that way" can never be
the sort of lix that I mean. In this form it can only be propaganda... and I
can't recall any band that has taken this approach...
>Are you not taken aback that Arnold Schwarzenegger doesn't wear a sword and
>hacks up people left and right in public? That's what he did in the Conan
>movies. Should he offstage act how he acted onstage?
>
>It's not that much different than a musician. Usually people write better songs
>if they believe the same thoughts that the lyrics or characters they're acting
>to be are, but it's not necessary.
And here I can only disagree. Arnold Schwarzenegger plays a role, he becomes
someone else. And even though some bands are perfect actors too (Manowar, Spi-
nal Tap, Gwar), I don't see this in lots of other bands. If you read the in-
terviews you see that most metal musicians do take themselves and their lix
seriously. Then there's no reason for me to say: "That's only a role"...
You're right however that some lix are better than the characters. But then I
say, does every member of Greenpeace always act the way he/she is supposed to?
Nope... We're only human...
The problem is that I see some bands say that they hate everything about life
and society and don't even try to act a bit in a way they think is better...
Do I have to mention the TV-out-of-the-window-activities of the Beasty Boys?
They're not even a bit 'better' than the ones they hate. And my whole issue
is about bands like these...
>Some songs have no lyrical content, just a string of words that read out loud
>and not sung really don't mean anything.
Yep, that's true. Some real metal songs don't even have lix at all. Sometimes
the music can say what words can't. But here I can only say: how many metal
bands without a singer can you mention? Seems to me that the singing/lyrical
part must be of some importance...
>>Again this assumption isn't too strange; through the years their was some
>>common sense amongst metal-heads: our society is heading in the wrong direc-
>>tion, and that makes us sick (or am I _really_ wrong here?)...
>>
>Was it really common sense? If it was, it could hardly go wrong if in fact it
>did.
Well, if I look at all metal fans that I personally have learned to know in the
eighties: almost none of them is still very interested in the current popular
bands. I think that can only mean that the entire scene is now based on some-
thing else than it was back then.
And don't say that they're not interested because they're older now, because
that's not true. They (and me included) still like to play the old ones (from
Iron Maiden and Exodus to Death and Sodom) a lot.
We just don't recoginize in the new bands what we loved in the old ones. I
think that's very strange, but caused by MTV (e.a.).
>Considering many of us grew up around that time, it would be a response most
>expected, but it's not really a fair question I don't think. I know of people
>who are in my age (around 20) who hate the old stuff from the '80s because "it
>isn't very heavy." Or there's so much vocal melody that it's cheezy. Stuff like
>that. And some people hate the modern stuff because there isn't much vocal
>melody.
Well, if they really think that the stuff in the eighties wasn't very heavy
than I'm afraid they really have no clue what was produced back then... Sure
some of it was cheesy (Helloween e.a.) but some of it was just as heavy as
the stuff created these days...
>Personally I liked the '80s stuff because everyone liked to show off their
>skills as composers and musicians and enjoyed being famous, being popular,
Huh? Huh?
I think we've got a different opinion here. Do you really think that albums
like "Kill 'm All" or "Show No Mercy" were made to become famous?
If that is true they failed completely. At that time it would be a lot better
to get into the new wave of disco...
>I find that more recent bands that are "heavily influenced" by other bands
>really end up copying.
Yep, you got it right there. Currently the 'new' bands are just not interes-
ting to the metal fans. Only the so-called more obscure bands are - but be-
cause MTV redefined metal these bands never get the attention and the 'new'
fans don't listen to metal at all, but they think they do...
>A lot of Swedish death bands also sound suspiciously similar, usually copying
>Entombed now.
Well, there's a lot of interesting stuff coming from Sweden these days. I
only have to mention Tiamat, Therion and Dark Tranquillity...
>In the '90s I like the less vocal melody approach because I am prejudiced
>against singers (most of whom seem to never do anything for the band unless
>the singer happens to be one of the instrumentalists). I like the shift into
>stronger musicianship to carry the music and less reliance on the vocalist.
>Well, singers I guess tend to suffer because now singers don't sing as well as
>the '80s singers did, but I'm not too worried about that. I think modern music
>has stronger moods and atmospheres and better correlation of music and lyrics
>than before
I have the impression that you where more into the several forms of heavy
metal than thrash, speed and death. There's not too much of vocal melody
in bands like Sodom, Kreator and Death.
If you listen to the great "Nuclear Winter" by Sodom you'll find that those
lix perfectly flow with the song. "Angel Of Death" - same thing...
In heavy metal that indeed was different; esp Fates Warning did their ut-
most to get it all right, but failed here and there. That form of music
is indeed dying out, if it isn't dead already...
>[alternative part skipped]
>
>But the only reason why these bands are metal is because MTV and the pop media
>said it was. None of the bands claimed to be metal. Many metal fans don't
>consider them to be metal either.
Well, I have to disagree here. We had this nice metal cafe in the place where
I live. Everything went fine until the day Nirvana got popular. The cafe sud-
denly was invaded by 'new' metal fans, all proudly wearing their Nirvana and
Pearl Jam shirts. Hell, lots of the old fans weren't even wearing metal shirts.
Well, the end of the story is that this cafe is closed now, because the old
visitors started to dislike the new atmosphere.
MTV killed our cafe, just like it has killed metal.
>I don't think deliberately trying not to be cool is exactly a good attitude
>either. Bands are cool if you like them, and they are not if you don't like
>them. Some bands that are cool to you might not be cool by my standards. And
>vice versa. This takes into account how you feel about the attitudes of the
>bands. For instance I think Venom were cool because their attitude was
>arrogant and loud and vulgar. But I hate Pantera for the same reason and think
>they are not very cool at all.
"Deliberately trying not to be cool" is of course just as stupid, so I would
never mean that.
But to make it clear: I don't see any bands that I like as "cool". This is
yet another thing that has become standard because of MTV. Because of the
need to be cool, the band members talk shit when interviewed; I can compare
this a little with those Wrestle Mania wrestlers... They talk exactly the
same; but in that case I can smile. When it comes to metal bands it makes
me sick, because we all know that lots of fans more or less take over the
behavior of their 'idols'. And I'm not saying that this is the only reason,
but it's one of the reasons why our society is rapidly changing - getting
more violent each day...
And this is true; without the need for it, L.A. like gangs have been created
in some of the cities in Holland, just because it was 'cool' to do so, to
be just like their idols.
Face it, the music industry has become one of the main factors in the chan-
ging of the youth today. And now that lots of metal fans talk like P. Anselmo
(Pantera) I don't like to even talk with them. I don't even like to go to
'big' concerts anymore (well, gonna try Sepultura next month)...
And _that_ is what makes me sick. Exactly _that_ is what the whole thing is
about. Exactly _that_ is why I say that todays youth is not thinking anymore;
most of them follow their 'idols' without seeing the result of it...
As a side-step I have to say that this is apparent in the part of Holland
where I live. I've been in some other European countries too, and noticed the
same thing only in highly industrialized parts (like Germany). In most parts
of Scandinavia this change in todays youth hasn't gone very far yet, although
I haven't been to Norway...
>It's only in the more popular styles though. The less popular the music style
>the more it deviates from the "gangsta rap" style that you're talking about.
>Anyways it doesn't have to be aggressive to be metal. There is an entire genre
>of metal that is characterised by its unaggressive tendencies.
Well, I used to call it meaningful aggression with a positive twist. But other
than that, I agree with you here... The less popular the style is, the closer
to metal it happened to be (Beware: I'm not saying "not popular = metal"!!! :)
The most popular styles are covered with this gangsta rap attitude. Being the
most popular these are also the most influencial on the behavior of the youth,
which, as I said, is very apparent in (this part of) Holland - but might not
be clear (yet?) in other parts of the world.
>I hope by true you are not referring to "pure" (eg "pure Norse-Germaniac Aryan
>black metal" as some Christian more or less put it with my scornful attitude
>towards him added)
No. As you might know by now: I don't see those so-called "pure" bands as metal
at all. Most of 'em bear too much of racial prejudice in them, and I find that
an entirely non-metal thing. It's close to propaganda, and it includes the
denial of freedom (or existance) of some people, which I can only sea as the
ideas of a sick mind...
>>I think it's wise to stand still for a moment and ask ourselves the
>>question: "Is this what we want? Are we really heading in the right direc-
>>tion?".
>
>If there is a direction, then I think it must be right. You could disagree with
>it and it could still be right. Then you could decide to not take that
>direction and go somewhere else, and you could yourself be doing the right
>thing at the same time. Right or wrong, I don't see the relevance here.
Well, as I stated before: the relevance is that out society is changing for
the worse, because the shit-heads are also the 'idols'. That's what I mean
with the wrong direction.
>>And that is exactly what I see these days: society fragments further and
>>further. And that worries me. And to me it seems that the youth of today
>>doesn't really think.
>
>You'll have to spell that out for me.
Well, I just did... And it is possible that you don't see this problem be-
cause it doesn't happen around you. But I see the people changing... rapidly.
The youth is getting more violent - it's even cool to bear a weapon (which
is unlike in the US, not allowed)... The most important reasons for this
change are music and the media, as these have become the most influencial
'things' on todays youth (yes, even more than parents or school)...
But I am repeating myself....
Well, I think it should be a little more clear now. Thanks for giving a
more serious reaction than the "you arrogant dick-head" type of thing I
saw before... :)
Cya!
Frank.
Seinstra FJ
>In article <DLKxy1....@cs.vu.nl>, fjs...@cs.vu.nl (Seinstra FJ) says:
>> "All men play on 10"... Yeah, sure... :)
>... ours go to 11. -Spinal Tap
Damn, mine only goes to 8...
Frank.
K.C.
> Youre so full of fucking shit, you pathetic clown. You started to stray from
> to topic to make sure all who read your posts know you love glam.
> You're such a fuckhead. YOU HAVE LOST THE PLOT DICKHEAD! You care to think
> back, it was you who said, that because I said that metallica have sold out
> and now play piss weak shit, that _I_ wouldn't be able to put out songs 2% as
> good as theirs, and that just because it's slower and less heavy, doesnt mean
> it's not as good.. So shove that up youre arse along with your head! Not
> straying from the topic, my arse.
Hrmm...I think, maybe you should go back to school, and get a fucking
education, and learn how to decipher simple statements before you post.
Listen, you pathetic waste of bandwidth, you're the one who started with
the "Glam" shit with your worthless comments, and I'm the one who kept
shooting you down till this day. I defended the fact that Glam did not
ruin metal, and you're just too stupid to understand that statement.
> clothes to make myslef appealing to teeny bopping shit. and YOU call me a
> retard? HA! I Bet you love yourself so much you carry a mirror in your Purse.
Yep, you're a retard, enough said.
> Glam does great WITH cocksuckers like you, so why not piss off, and fix your
> makeup.
More narrowmined, unintelligent posts. Not unusual from low intelligence
retards as yourself.
> EVERYONE is stupid arent they. Youre the king fucking intellectual. You make
> me look like an idiot huh? NO, you just show how much of a complete drop kick
> arse licker you can be, with you're "I'm better than you are coz I like glam"
> attitude.
No, you make yourself look like an idiot. Plain and Simple.
> And I have to reply to youre crap, coz you are a blithering fuckwit. You live
> in a world of your own, don't you. Lonely child were you? No friends? glam is
> the answer for people like you. get's you the attention you crave.
By the way, go and get some 5 year old kid to explain what this message
means, cuz you probably wound't understand it.
==========================================================================
K.C.
Management Information Systems
Concordia University, Montreal, Canada
Visit my Metal Home Page at the adress below
http://alcor.concordia.ca/~k_chaud
==========================================================================
Chopper
>
> Of course I replied to your post, I love bashing morons like you, I
> wouldn't miss the chance. I thought you'd be stupid enough as to not
> realize that it hasn't reached your server yet. Talk about mentally
> defective, just look at your poodle post, and then tell me who's mentally
> defective, in fact, just look at all your pathetic posts, and tell me who's
> mentally defective. No I don't keep track of such areas, just made it up
> cuz I thought it might give you the idea of starting one, and fulfilling
> all your fantasies.
The only bashing you're capable of is the damage you do to your own cock
every time you see bands such as poison on a screen in front of you. Yes
you are mentally defective. You seem to go off on very strange tangents.
People say one thing to you, then after reading your replies you've gotta
wonder if you've even bothered to read the message you're replying to.
Therefore you are mentally defective..... If it wasn't a poodle perhaps
it was a relative??? Something must be responsible for your completely
fucked up mental state.
Seinstra FJ
>But that's the thing - there is no propoganda in most of their lyrics! Well,
>not in the ones that write in English at least. There's no message to convert
>people to be like them.
Yep, that's true - but still you have to admit that those who are really into
those bands know very well what it's all about. It may be not in the lyrics,
but it definitely is in their mouths/behavior... And the fans (proudly) pick
up this attitude...
I think most 'older' black metal fans (Celtic Frost - Bathory) will hate this,
just as much as I hate the Pantera-attitude in the mainstream forms of metal.
Isn't that why bands like Enslaved do everything to let us know that they're
absolutely not part of this scene?
>So the matter of lyrics to me takes second place as far as how "true metal"
>a band is. I'm more concerned with the sound.
Well, I know lots of fans say this, but it's not my point of view. I'd like
to ask you this: if a band would create the best music that you'd ever heard,
but happened to sing about how great a person Hitler was, or the Pope or
Tipper Gore, or... well, whoever...
Would you still listen to this music? Would you like it just as much as when
it would come with lyrics that you'd appreciate more?
To both questions I'd answer: No. And I noticed that lots of fans say the
same thing, even though they had the same opinion as you have...
That's why I say that the lix and the music only can come together. Sure, some
bands have better lix than music, and vice versa, but my fav. bands are those
who happen to be great at both...
>As I said, usually it is that the band
>believes what they are singing about, but those beliefs aren't hammering around
>in their heads 24 hours a day. Not even one hour, I don't think. Ask them and
>they'll usually be consistent (of course ask them between a span of ten years
>and it might be different but within ten days or ten months it's usually more
>or less the same) but don't ask them and they might never even think about it
>for weeks or until they have to write a new song or whatever.
Yep, that's true, and I really can't understand that. Look at Martin Walkyier
(Skyclad); he'll start a discussion with you at any moment of the day.
That's also why I call bands like Skyclad 'true' and others to be 'not in-
teresting'...
>This is why I usually hate American bands. It's bitch bitch bitch. I get sick
>of bands like Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax, Chastain, etc. who just complain
>all the time. Look at a lot of Europeans. They all have problems too, in the
>government or with big business or poverty or crime, whatever, same as us, but
>those guys seem to be really happy that they are whoever they happen to be.
>Norwegian black metal is usually an appreciation for their natural environment
>mixed with the lyricists' personal beliefs and dreams and fantasies.
I don't agree with you here. First it's a little stupid to say "I usually hate
American bands", because in a way no band is like any other. And I don't think
that European bands are all happy either (Sodom, Kreator, Anathema).
But there indeed is a difference between US and European bands, which can be
traced back to the different social situations in both parts of the world.
Actually, I wouldn't like to live in the US, because of these differences...
Even though, of course, I can only rely on what I see on TV, it doesn't really
seem like the US are really 'the home of the free' (yeah, if you're a white
upper-class male). To complain about that in music seems fair to me...
Next to that, what you talk about, smells like 'nationalism', which is
a very odd phenomenon to me. I really can't understand that a person can be
'proud' to live in a certain part of the world, for the only 'thing' he/she
had to do, was to be born there... Quite an achievement...
>Except Metallica did sing "Don't Tread On Me"
>which is about the first American Revolution in the late 1770s / early '80s
>but everyone for some reason thinks it's a prowar song.
Yep, it seems hardly anyone knows that the words "Don't Tread On Me" and the
snake (that can be found on the cover of the black album) both come from a
flag/banner used in that period...
>it was all in fun and all to be rock stars.
Well, I don't see it like that, but I don't think we would ever agree on this
point, so I'll leave it at this...
>I really like the Swedish scene. After NWOBHM, as far as classic and power
>metal goes, next up is Sweden and then Germany for me. For death / black, I
>like Swedish and Norwegian most, and the only British ones I like are the
>ones who are also doomy like My Dying Bride.
I guess we're into the same styles then, even though I put the My Dying Bride
stuff (esp Anathema, they're great!) first, followed by the other styles
(death/black (esp Dark Tranq. + Cradle Of Filth), speed/thrash (esp Skyclad,
Sacred Reich) and NWOBHM (Maiden, of course))
But I'm not (like you) into all styles - I just can't enjoy bands like Morbid
Angel (non-interesting (lix)) or like Def Leppard (over-produced) or Pantera
(attitude)...
>In USA it wasn't even really alive. We had Crimson Glory, Dream Theater,
>Queensryche, Fates Warning - all over the place but not quite enough to make
>a scene.
That really amazes me all the time. Esp Dream Theater and Queensryche are BIG
in Europe, and especially here in Holland. I remember that, in 1990, Motley
Crue didn't want to play the Monsters Of Rock in Holland because Queensryche
was (only here) placed higher up the bill, because of their popularity. That
was great, cause I hate MC...
>>And _that_ is what makes me sick. Exactly _that_ is what the whole thing is
>>about. Exactly _that_ is why I say that todays youth is not thinking anymore;
>>most of them follow their 'idols' without seeing the result of it...
>>
>I don't think this is a new problem. Probably people in the '70s were talking
>the same way about the '80s metalheads the way many of the '80s guys are
>talking about the '90s crowd. Maybe slightly different, but the "golden age
>long past" sort of speech seems to still exist.
Hmm, I find it really difficult to make it clear, but I really think it is
different this time. I really am not 'stuck in the 80s'; I've always been
some kind of 'beholder', looking at people's behavior and I realy noticed this
sudden change. When I use a bus/train or whatever I shake my head very often
these days, because I can't understand how so many people have addopted the
behavior that they show.
Maybe it's not a good reference, but once I took my mother ( :) with me, be-
cause she didn't believe what I said. Within half an hour I could convince
her - actually she was shocked at what she saw and heard. She said something
like: "It looks like they're all getting mad".
It really is a problem, there really is a change going on - and even though
I'm not the only one who sees this, nothing is done about it. And at running
the risk of being labelled 'another Tipper Gore', I'll say this to as much
people as I can...
>The guys in
>Enslaved and Immortal, two of the most famous ones related to the scene, seem
>to always try to distance themselves from the others, back then, and still now.
Yep, that's true, and (maybe) that's why I really enjoy Enslaved's "Vikingligr
Veldi". Monotonous, but still great...
>Well, I wasn't trying to say that bands like Pantera aren't metal. I think they
>are metal, but it's like say a lot of your brothers and sisters are cool but
>one of them is just a really obnoxious asshole, but he's your brother and you
>have to live with it and he's family but you can't stand him... that sort of
>effect. That one unliked sibling would be what I'd consider bands like Pantera.
>One of us though many of us would rather they weren't.
Hey, that's a nice point of view... I like that way of looking at it...
"We are all metal, but some are more metal than others..." :)
Okay, I'll take over that point of view - but it won't keep me away from kick-
ing bands like Pantera...
>I think you're too pessemistic. If it's a bad idea, it will eventually die out.
>It's really cyclic the way things turn out, I think. So I am not terribly
>worried.
I've been labeled "too pessemistic" throughout my entire life, on a lot of
different subjects (esp environmental problems), but (without wanting to sound
arrogant) my views turned out to be more realistic than a lot of people
would believe at first.
This doesn't mean that I'm right this time, of course...
Actually, I'd like to believe that I'm wrong, but I can't...
>But humans are naturally violent. Well, a significant number of them at least.
Well, humans are naturally violent only when it will improve their own situ-
ation - you can see the same thing in lots of animals. But these days this
violence will not improve their situation; it will make it worse - even though
they think they've got nothing to lose...
>>is unlike in the US, not allowed)... The most important reasons for this
>>change are music and the media, as these have become the most influencial
>>'things' on todays youth (yes, even more than parents or school)...
>Maybe this has more to do with people wanting to change the world and
>violence being the easiest way to do it.
Yep, that's true - and everyone should know by know that the extreme forms
of violence in the end will not solve anything - it can only make things
worse.
And that's what the difference is between now and 5 - 10 years ago (in music,
but also in society). Back then the aggression showed in metal was basicly
non-violent, and I can't see that in popular modern day metal very often.
Frank.
K.C.
> I think you are the one in need of reading lessons. I said "Who" ever
> said anything about liking softer bands. Because you seem to be
> protesting against something that was never said by anyone. You invented
> it. Out of the blue there are suddenly these mythical "little punks that
> bash softer bands just because they only like heavier shit." Who ever
Listen newbie, I've been on this newsgroup long enough to know there are
people like that.
> said they only like heavier shit??? Or are you narrow minded enough to
> think that there is only "heavier shit" and glam? Real people can listen
> to Death/Atrophy and still enjoy other stuff. That doesn't mean they have
> to like Glam because you do little boy.
Little boy??? HAHAHAH, you should be calling me Dad. Judging from your
earlier posts, I'm NOT the one who should be labeled as narrowminded.
It's more like you need to learn to understand a message before you reply
with your nonsense. Who ever said they are forcing people to like Glam?
Not me. As for real people listening to Death/Atrophy, and enjoying other
stuff...that's my point exactly. "Glam" = other stuff as well, and I enjoy
other stuff, as well as heavier material. End of story.
Derf
>
> On Mon, 22 Jan 1996, Dork wrote:
>
> > and you should be in alt.i.have.no.dick.and.a.big.head
> >
> > get off your high horse, you arse.
>
> like you there? I know it's hard, due to your limited vocabulary, but
> try to use another word other than 'arse'.
get fucked you cunt.
ARSE ARSE ARSE ARSE ARSE!
see that? Youre very smart arent you BOY. you'd find a bunch of invalids like
me in that alt wouldnt you.
You're making me get off topic shit for brains. I would like to mash your
fucking face into the ground. and beleive me I COULD!
now I'm going to ignore you, as I dont think everyone else wants to read this
shit. if you reply I will reply to you via E-MAIL, you faggot.
Sorry to everyone for this but this guy really pisses me off.
So KOCK CUCKER if you'd like to continue via e-mail, be my guest.
you pathetic 'for youre benefit' ASS!
Philip Wang
>>not in the ones that write in English at least. There's no message to convert
>>people to be like them.
>
>Yep, that's true - but still you have to admit that those who are really into
>those bands know very well what it's all about. It may be not in the lyrics,
>but it definitely is in their mouths/behavior... And the fans (proudly) pick
>up this attitude...
Is it in the behavior as the press stated it? Certainly racists and fanatics
existed in the black metal scene, but not everybody involved was racist nor
fanatic nor whatever. Probably it'd be half and half, and it just happens that
the fanatics were louder than everyone else. Look at Varg Vikernes for
instance. One of the first names to come up when you mention black metal and
he thinks he's a Nazi. But then guys like Emperor are not.
>I think most 'older' black metal fans (Celtic Frost - Bathory) will hate this
Most comments I have heard from classic black metal fans seem to hate the new
stuff simply because they claim that the new bands aren't doing much more than
copying Bathory, Venom, Hellhammer and Celtic Frost but just making the sound
more current. I suppose it's a reasonable claim, though even if that were
true, it doesn't bother me. I haven't heard much comment complaining about the
attitudes of the modern black metal bands, although personally I keep
wondering why these guys took Venom so seriously. You read interviews like
"Venom were so eeeee-ville" and I just keep thinking "No, Venom were rock stars
and extreme posers who used over the top (by society standards) lyrics and
images to get attention."
>just as much as I hate the Pantera-attitude in the mainstream forms of metal.
>Isn't that why bands like Enslaved do everything to let us know that they're
>absolutely not part of this scene?
I thought they did that when all the killing and other weird stuff started.
>
>>So the matter of lyrics to me takes second place as far as how "true metal"
>>a band is. I'm more concerned with the sound.
>
>Well, I know lots of fans say this, but it's not my point of view. I'd like
>to ask you this: if a band would create the best music that you'd ever heard,
>but happened to sing about how great a person Hitler was, or the Pope or
>Tipper Gore, or... well, whoever...
>Would you still listen to this music? Would you like it just as much as when
>it would come with lyrics that you'd appreciate more?
I'd still listen to the music but you would definitely hear me complain about
the lyrics. I certainly would like it more if the lyrics were something that
were closer to my tastes, yes. I'd be sorely disappointed that such a great
musical talent is wasted on views that I find distasteful, but there are people
that might think a band like that would be the best band on the planet (the
people who share those kinds of views that I do not have). Anyways the closest
that such an experience happened to me is that I like Burzum's "Tomhet" (which
has no vocals and no lyrics as a result) and yet I hate Christian Vikernes and
his social-political stance.
>To both questions I'd answer: No. And I noticed that lots of fans say the
>same thing, even though they had the same opinion as you have...
>That's why I say that the lix and the music only can come together. Sure, some
>bands have better lix than music, and vice versa, but my fav. bands are those
>who happen to be great at both...
>
Mine too. But since bands who are great at both are few, I do have to settle
for other bands who have great music but not as great lyrics. And I find this
to be OK. As far as bands with great lyrics and lousy music, well, since we
are talking about musicians here, I just can't listen to that sort of thing.
But every once in a while I like to listen to bands with both lousy lyrics
AND lousy music - it's kind of fun to laugh at.
>
>Yep, that's true, and I really can't understand that. Look at Martin Walkyier
>(Skyclad); he'll start a discussion with you at any moment of the day.
>That's also why I call bands like Skyclad 'true' and others to be 'not in-
>teresting'...
Skyclad and Martin Walkyier are awesome. Skyclad is the only socially oriented
band that I really really like and can say are among my most favourite bands
ever. But I think one reason why is because their music manages to capture a
social feel to it. It's not like Nuclear Assault or Anthrax whose music is
going one direction and the lyrics sound like as I said before, "Hey, I don't
have lyrics for this song. You got any extra ones hiding in your bag? Gimmie
one!"
>
>I don't agree with you here. First it's a little stupid to say "I usually hate
>American bands", because in a way no band is like any other.
The lyrical stance of many American bands are mostly filled with complaining
about everything. They complain in different ways, but the popular ones like
Metallica, Megadeth, Testament, Anthrax, Nuclear Assault (especially), and so
on really annoy me when they sing about these things.
The only American bands I tend to find myself liking are bands like Iced Earth,
Warlord, Warrior, Fates Warning, Dream Theater - not so obviously trying to
sing about real life though if they do it's almost always done in metaphor and
not directly stated. This is the way I would prefer lyrics. So I listen to
less of the Metallica / Megadeth / Testament and more of these guys.
>And I don't think
>that European bands are all happy either (Sodom, Kreator, Anathema).
No, but except for Kreator and Sodom a lot of the more popular ones don't do
so much complaining. Well, Gamma Ray sometimes annoys me on Land Of The Free
with a lot of complaining too. It's the only weak part I think of this album,
the lyrics and their complaining attitude. But still it isn't as extreme as
Anthrax or Nuclear Assault have gotten. And British doomdeath is among my
favourites because it's extremelly depressing but it's mostly personal and not
related to politics or social climates or anything. It's about things I can
relate to the most.
>But there indeed is a difference between US and European bands, which can be
>traced back to the different social situations in both parts of the world.
>Actually, I wouldn't like to live in the US, because of these differences...
Every once in a while I feel like it would be fun to live in Europe or Taiwan
or Japan but I think even if I had residences there I'd always want to be an
American citizen.
>Even though, of course, I can only rely on what I see on TV, it doesn't really
>seem like the US are really 'the home of the free' (yeah, if you're a white
>upper-class male). To complain about that in music seems fair to me...
>
I suppose putting those kinds of lyrics in popular music is the easiest way to
spread certain ideas, but there are many topics that they sing about that
do not directly affect me and as a result I can't relate to. And I won't
pretend to either. When the "Gulf War" about 6 or so years ago was happening
a lot of my classmates were worried about being drafted but I was about two
years younger than most of my classmates and out of the drafting range. The
closest I've ever come to not having any money was the one time my parents
were celebrating their wedding anniversary for about two weeks and I didn't
have money in my bank account but I just got my paycheck from work and I
couldn't mail the check home since no one would be there to deposit it for me.
(I don't have a bank account in NYC. I don't trust them as a result of a bad
experience with Chemical Bank.) and as for medical care, being from a family
that has not less than 20 doctors I've never had the same worries that many
of my friends have when they get sick. It's just a very different experience.
Bands that sing more about personal reflections or girls or D&D or death and
so on are more identifiable to me because of the movies I like to watch or
books I like to read, or the D&D games I play, girl problems, etc.
>Next to that, what you talk about, smells like 'nationalism', which is
>a very odd phenomenon to me. I really can't understand that a person can be
>'proud' to live in a certain part of the world, for the only 'thing' he/she
>had to do, was to be born there... Quite an achievement...
But I didn't say that everything America did is correct. I think you can get
annoyed by things the government can do and still like the country where you
live. I wouldn't mind living anywhere else, but I'm pretty happy here. How
many people root for their own home football team just because that football
team comes from the same city or vicinity where they live? That doesn't mean
they can't like any other football team, it just means they support their local
football team.
>
>>Except Metallica did sing "Don't Tread On Me"
>>which is about the first American Revolution in the late 1770s / early '80s
>>but everyone for some reason thinks it's a prowar song.
>
>Yep, it seems hardly anyone knows that the words "Don't Tread On Me" and the
>snake (that can be found on the cover of the black album) both come from a
>flag/banner used in that period...
>
>>it was all in fun and all to be rock stars.
>
>Well, I don't see it like that, but I don't think we would ever agree on this
>point, so I'll leave it at this...
>
OK.
>>I really like the Swedish scene. After NWOBHM, as far as classic and power
>>metal goes, next up is Sweden and then Germany for me. For death / black, I
>>like Swedish and Norwegian most, and the only British ones I like are the
>>ones who are also doomy like My Dying Bride.
>
>But I'm not (like you) into all styles - I just can't enjoy bands like Morbid
>Angel (non-interesting (lix)) or like Def Leppard (over-produced) or Pantera
>(attitude)...
I'm not as picky as some people can get about the music. You know what - I
even like the new Jag Panzer album, which for some reason lots of old metal
fans really really hate. I like bands such as Def Leppard but I can't stand
Bon Jovi or Poison who to me sound like they wish they were Def Leppard but
just don't quite have what it takes. I like Rising Force but I don't like
Vinnie Moore. I like Venom but I hate Hellhammer. I hate hardcore and punk
related music but I like S. O. D. and Brutal Trth and Napalm Death.
>
>That really amazes me all the time. Esp Dream Theater and Queensryche are BIG
>in Europe, and especially here in Holland. I remember that, in 1990, Motley
>Crue didn't want to play the Monsters Of Rock in Holland because Queensryche
>was (only here) placed higher up the bill, because of their popularity. That
>was great, cause I hate MC...
I only like their first two albums.
>It really is a problem, there really is a change going on - and even though
>I'm not the only one who sees this, nothing is done about it. And at running
>the risk of being labelled 'another Tipper Gore', I'll say this to as much
>people as I can...
Sometimes change, even change for the worse, is useful though. If everything
is perfect and nice, I think a lot of people will get bored and try to excite
things, which might be to try to turn everything eventually into a disaster
area, but then at that point people will get tired of all this hate or whatever
and change it back to harmonious, and it will just go back and forth. I don't
believe everything will always stay in one extreme state. And so what you are
describing doesn't strike me as being an emergency, just part of nature.
>Okay, I'll take over that point of view - but it won't keep me away from kick-
>ing bands like Pantera...
I have no problems with kicking around Pantera though I did really enjoy
Cowboys From Hell.
>
>I've been labeled "too pessemistic" throughout my entire life, on a lot of
>different subjects (esp environmental problems), but (without wanting to sound
>arrogant) my views turned out to be more realistic than a lot of people
>would believe at first.
I think if you're going to look for things you don't like, you will never have
any trouble finding them.
>
>Yep, that's true - and everyone should know by know that the extreme forms
>of violence in the end will not solve anything - it can only make things
>worse.
I was watching this TV show a few weeks ago. They were talking about weapons
that blinded people and a lot of people were saying it was an inhumane weapon.
So now it's like I'm allowed to bayonet somebody but I'm not allowed to blind
them because it's considered by international law inhumane? okayyyyyyyy...
You'd think people would look at weapons developments and say "Gee, that
country has these weapons what aren't very good for our health but we have
problems with them. Maybe we should work harder at trying to solve our
problems by spending more time hanging out with their leaders and talking to
them instead of getting into a fight with them."
>And that's what the difference is between now and 5 - 10 years ago (in music,
>but also in society). Back then the aggression showed in metal was basicly
>non-violent, and I can't see that in popular modern day metal very often.
>
A conclusion I still disagree with - Show No Mercy and Kill 'Em All don't
strike me as "non-violent" LPs. Bands like Slayer and Venom I think are much
more graphic than more recent bands (at least a lot of them though of course
not all). Maybe you're trying to say those bands' violent images were more
based on fantasy and more clearly not "realistic" whereas stuff like Pantera
and so on tend to deal with how "real people feel" ? Anyways we're all
throwing up names that are associated with more "mainstream" metal bands (the
bands that most metal fans tend to like as opposed to metal bands that are on
Billboard or MTV all the time) and the more obscure you get, I think the less
there is of the problems you are having with bands.
"He stands...like some sort of...pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out
over the city he's sworn to...to stare out over...and it's evident...just by
looking at him...that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind."
- The Tick
K.C.
> The only bashing you're capable of is the damage you do to your own cock
> every time you see bands such as poison on a screen in front of you. Yes
> you are mentally defective. You seem to go off on very strange tangents.
> People say one thing to you, then after reading your replies you've gotta
> wonder if you've even bothered to read the message you're replying to.
> Therefore you are mentally defective..... If it wasn't a poodle perhaps
> it was a relative??? Something must be responsible for your completely
> fucked up mental state.
Nope, I'm not the one going on tangents. Just think back ( if you're
capable to thinking at all) to your post (or should I say fantasy) about
poodle molestation. If there's anyone who's not reading the posts
properly it's you, shit for brains. Oh boy, there you go off on a
tangent again talking about incest. Please do us a favor and not talk
about your fantasies on this newsgroup, there are specific newsgroups for
people of *your* mental state, where you can talk about all those
fantasies you wish to fulfill.
Seinstra FJ
>I'd still listen to the music but you would definitely hear me complain about
>the lyrics. I certainly would like it more if the lyrics were something that
>were closer to my tastes, yes. I'd be sorely disappointed that such a great
>musical talent is wasted on views that I find distasteful,
Personally I can't enjoy music that, in any way, has an annoying part in it.
Even if it has good parts I will never listen to it.
Eventhough I hear some nice things in some older Pantera songs, I will never
listen to it. Type-O-Negative etc, same thing...
>But every once in a while I like to listen to bands with both lousy lyrics
>AND lousy music - it's kind of fun to laugh at.
Yeah, me too, but those bands are never metal bands. Duran Duran for instance.
>>Next to that, what you talk about, smells like 'nationalism', which is
>>a very odd phenomenon to me. I really can't understand that a person can be
>>'proud' to live in a certain part of the world, for the only 'thing' he/she
>>had to do, was to be born there... Quite an achievement...
>
>But I didn't say that everything America did is correct. I think you can get
>annoyed by things the government can do and still like the country where you
>live. I wouldn't mind living anywhere else, but I'm pretty happy here. How
>many people root for their own home football team just because that football
>team comes from the same city or vicinity where they live? That doesn't mean
>they can't like any other football team, it just means they support their local
>football team.
I already thought you meant this, but it seems like a lot of people can't (or
don't want to) see the difference between 'supporting/liking' and 'being proud
of'. When the 'pride' comes into play, people start to show really strange
(often aggressive) behavior. And as you might know by now, I really can't un-
derstand that...
>Sometimes change, even change for the worse, is useful though. If everything
>is perfect and nice, I think a lot of people will get bored and try to excite
>things, which might be to try to turn everything eventually into a disaster
>area, but then at that point people will get tired of all this hate or whatever
>and change it back to harmonious, and it will just go back and forth. I don't
>believe everything will always stay in one extreme state. And so what you are
>describing doesn't strike me as being an emergency, just part of nature.
So we really have to slide down before we can see that we're heading in the
wrong direction? That's strange, isn't it.
I do know that this is part of human behavior, but we should have the know-
ledge by know; we only have to look back in time. But I guess the call of our
ancesters is not as loud as our greedy inner voice.
This is one of the reasons why I don't see the human race as particulary in-
telligent; we have the ability to learn, but when it comes to the most impor-
tant questions, we hardly ever do...
>I think if you're going to look for things you don't like, you will never have
>any trouble finding them.
Granted. But for me that doesn't mean I will close my eyes, or go against
things that I see as wrong. It's not that I don't want to see 'only good
things', it's just that I can't...
>>And that's what the difference is between now and 5 - 10 years ago (in music,
>>but also in society). Back then the aggression showed in metal was basicly
>>non-violent, and I can't see that in popular modern day metal very often.
>>
>A conclusion I still disagree with - Show No Mercy and Kill 'Em All don't
>strike me as "non-violent" LPs. Bands like Slayer and Venom I think are much
>more graphic than more recent bands (at least a lot of them though of course
>not all). Maybe you're trying to say those bands' violent images were more
>based on fantasy and more clearly not "realistic" whereas stuff like Pantera
>and so on tend to deal with how "real people feel"?
Yes, I think you're right here; it's about the amount of realism. Those newer
bands are much 'closer to' the real thing, to what people are confronted with
each day (that's why these bands are so popular, I guess). But these bands
tend to stress those problems in a negative/aggressive way, which I think (as
you might know already :) is the heart of the problem.
Frank.
K.C.
> get fucked you cunt.
> ARSE ARSE ARSE ARSE ARSE!
I do get fucked, by women, unlike your case.
> see that? Youre very smart arent you BOY. you'd find a bunch of invalids like
> me in that alt wouldnt you.
Yes, I am smart. Smarter, and more mature than you'll ever be, son.
> You're making me get off topic shit for brains. I would like to mash your
> fucking face into the ground. and beleive me I COULD!
You would like to 'try', and I do stress the word 'try' wouldn't you.
Aren't you such a tough guy...threatening over the net. Doesn't that just
make you look so cool. I kick the shit out of idiots like you daily.
> now I'm going to ignore you, as I dont think everyone else wants to read this
> shit. if you reply I will reply to you via E-MAIL, you faggot.
Please do ignore me, or I'll simply have to shit on you some more.
You're asbsolutely right for once, I don't think everyone else wants to
hear your pathetic immature nonsense. Fine email me, I suppose you
finally realize that you don't want thousands of people laughing at you,
I understand.
> Sorry to everyone for this but this guy really pisses me off.
Watch out!! he's pissed off...HAHAH. .....fool
> So KOCK CUCKER if you'd like to continue via e-mail, be my guest.
> you pathetic 'for youre benefit' ASS!
For someone who can't spell, how did you ever learn to use the internet?
I'm looking forward to your private e-mail.
Holliman Matthew J
>I'm looking forward to your private e-mail.
The rest of us are also looking forward to this discussion continuing via
private e-mail, rather than in the newsgroups.
Matt
---------------------------------------------------------
"You lived your life in wretchedness Matt Holliman
And death is no escape..."--Carcass mhol...@uiuc.edu
---------------------------------------------------------
Henrik Hyyppä
>
>For someone who can't spell, how did you ever learn to use the internet?
Just because of that.
Henrik H
Metal12
METAL, MOTLEY CRUE RUINED METAL, AC/DC RUINED EVERYTHING!!!!!! AND
AEROSMITH JUST PLAIN SUCKS!!!! BANDS LIKE METALLICA AND BLACK SABBATH MADE
IT BETTER.
Chopper
Megadeth ruined metal? Anthrax ruined metal? But Metallica didn't?????
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHA!
Get a hearing aid.
Derf
>
> FUCK YOU!!!!!! MEGADETH RUINED METAL, ANTHRAX RUINED METAL, PANTERA RUINED
> METAL, MOTLEY CRUE RUINED METAL, AC/DC RUINED EVERYTHING!!!!!! AND
> AEROSMITH JUST PLAIN SUCKS!!!! BANDS LIKE METALLICA AND BLACK SABBATH MADE
> IT BETTER.
Jesus fucking christ.. metallica made it better...
get some help man.
ac/dc well, seeing as I'm a patriotic aussie I'll stick up for the bastards!
OLD AC\DC is fuckign mint! new ac\dc has taken the fucked way out... money
for nothing and fans for fuck all! bon scott made ac/dc, brian johnson killed
it, so acdc died there and then.. phew..
but shite, metallica, well mate, I think it's a fair assumption to say
metallica, with their new style is crap.
as for black sabath making it(the topic!) better?? I dunno. I HATE BLACK
SABBATH so I cant say.....
long live groups that give a shit.
--
MY BODY-MY MIND-MY CHOICE.
Ken Crooker
> FUCK YOU!!!!!! MEGADETH RUINED METAL, ANTHRAX RUINED METAL, PANTERA RUINED
> METAL, MOTLEY CRUE RUINED METAL, AC/DC RUINED EVERYTHING!!!!!! AND
> AEROSMITH JUST PLAIN SUCKS!!!! BANDS LIKE METALLICA AND BLACK SABBATH MADE
> IT BETTER.
You, sir, are an idiot!
Kenneth W. Crooker II
pol...@skypoint.com
Big Boss
Prophet of Doom and Doom of Prophets
:SABBATH so I cant say.....
Sabbath MADE Metal. I think you better realise that.
Glenno
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| "After the war, left feeling no-one has won; After the war, what does a |
| soldier become?, I'm just a soldier......" - Iron Maiden, The Aftermath |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ziad Kanna
r>
r>Metal12 wrote:
r>>
r>> FUCK YOU!!!!!! MEGADETH RUINED METAL, ANTHRAX RUINED METAL, PANTERA
RUINED
r>> METAL, MOTLEY CRUE RUINED METAL, AC/DC RUINED EVERYTHING!!!!!! AND
r>> AEROSMITH JUST PLAIN SUCKS!!!! BANDS LIKE METALLICA AND BLACK SABBATH
MADE
r>> IT BETTER.
r>
r>Megadeth ruined metal? Anthrax ruined metal? But Metallica didn't?????
r>
r>BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHA!
r>Get a hearing aid.
O.K. I don't agree that Megadeth ruined metal, but how do you justify
that Metallica ruined it???? They keep on venturing into unchartered
territory in the genre and are masters of metal.
Philip Wang
>Why do Metallica fans keep printing shit? Just accept that you like the band
>and that most normal people gave up on them when they became shite. The only
>uncharted territory happened back in Kill 'Em All & Ride The Lightning days.
>These albums were different back then. Young. Fresh.
They were young and fresh but they weren't treading new ground. In some ways
they improved on it, but it was mostly stuff that was coming out of Europe at
the time.
>The new stuff (Masters,
>Justice, Black, anything else I missed) is just treading the same old
>ground. It's like Deep Purple without the musical genius & bad vocals.
>
I never thought of Metallica is huge innovators anyway. They just popularised
already existing metal styles.
>Defend the band until you die. That's cool. But don't talk shite. That's not
>cool. :o)
To me Metallica is Metallica. Good band, all their stuff is worth listening
to, but actually I don't even own any Metallica records anymore (I gave them
all away to friends). I'll even say that I traded my Garage Days Re-Revisited
for an old Riot LP and I feel I got the better deal even if it turns out that
it happens to not be one of their better records (Restless Breed - still a
great metal LP though).
STORMS, THE FALLS OF HEAVENS
begone percipitator
',',',',','
END THE RAIN ',',',',',' OF THE WEEK
K.C.
> OLD AC\DC is fuckign mint! new ac\dc has taken the fucked way out... money
> for nothing and fans for fuck all! bon scott made ac/dc, brian johnson killed
> it, so acdc died there and then.. phew..
Bon Scott may have made AC/DC....however, Brian Johnson expanded AC/DC to
what they are today, popularity wise. Pretty much the same band they
were 16 years ago, musically speaking. When most people think of AC/DC,
they think "oh that guy with the weird voice".
Prophet of Doom and Doom of Prophets
:that Metallica ruined it???? They keep on venturing into unchartered
:territory in the genre and are masters of metal.
Dead right!
I'm sick to death that people keep saying that Metallica ruined metal.
How I ask? The black album sells ~15 million units, they tour for 3 years,
gain airplay and media coverage... For a metal band to achieve this much
and be blamed for ruining all metal is utterly ludicrous.
James F McCafferty
|> FUCK YOU!!!!!! MEGADETH RUINED METAL, ANTHRAX RUINED METAL, PANTERA RUINED
Ermmm... how many poeple out there went hey.. I like those bands?
I mean Anthrax's Persistence of Time and Among the Living completely ruled.
And dont dis Megadeth.. Dave has been sending me emails :)
Jim
Miss Bong
>On Sun, 11 Feb 1996, Derf wrote:
>Bon Scott may have made AC/DC....however, Brian Johnson expanded AC/DC to
>what they are today, popularity wise. Pretty much the same band they
>were 16 years ago, musically speaking. When most people think of AC/DC,
>they think "oh that guy with the weird voice".
Yes the guy who sounds like Donald Duck on acid - but is AC/DC metal? We
always called them hard rock, as opposed to psychedelic rock, which became
acid rock, which then became metal (hence a group like Tull being nominated at
the Grammys for best metal group, or Led Zeppelin being categorized as metal,
or heavy bass groups being categorized as grunge .....). The real question is,
who invented metal ? I would say Sabbath or Priest, but I am going 'way back,
and I am not even referring to that insipid noise known as "speed metal",
which was the only alternative to disco...........
Big Boss
Chris Hare
thinks that it's dead. It's just a great big cycle.
Metal was big. Kids got fed up seeing industry metal bands and decided
that they would listen to music that was not industry run. Nirvana came
out and everyone latched on to it and decided that metal was dead.
Now grunge music is industry run and kids are going to get tired of
listening to pussy bands that can't play and start listening to metal
again.
The same thing happened around 1983-1985. If you read music magazines
from back then people thought that metal or hard rock died with Led
Zeppelin and Black Sabbath.
Just keep listening to great music and don't give in to the mainsteam.
Chris
Philip Wang
>I'm sick to death that people keep saying that Metallica ruined metal.
>How I ask? The black album sells ~15 million units, they tour for 3 years,
>gain airplay and media coverage... For a metal band to achieve this much
>and be blamed for ruining all metal is utterly ludicrous.
>
trash any new release just because then they can say "the old stuff was better"
and usually it's just a matter of feeding the ego to have been around longer
than any potential new fans. For instance at the Iron Maiden show today, one of
my friends insists that Bruce Dickinson is the best singer the band ever had.
Why do I have a problem with his assertion? Well, for one thing, he had never
heard Paul Di' Anno sing for the band. Second, until tonight, he had never
heard Blaze sing for the band. I doubt he is even aware that for one single and
one concert, Adrian Smith has been recorded as lead vocalist for the band (the
latter being a rather famous bootleg recording). It's like he said that just to
sort of fit in? (The only Maiden albums he has in his collection are Piece Of
Mind, which I gave to him since I had three copies already of this album, a dub
of Seventh Son Of A Seventh Son and Fear Of The Dark on CD.) It's like
compulsory lip service to some "golden age" that may not have necessarily
existed except to demonstrate an older fan's superiority to a younger / more
recent one.
If metal fans continue to insist that all new albums by bands that they are
afraid might be embraced by the mainstream suck and "the old stuff was better"
can anybody really be surprised that maybe that might explain a lack of support
from record companies who don't know a thing about music generally and rely on
opinions of their customer base? If people who know better about something say
something bad about it, people who don't know better will reasonably assume
that the ones who are supposed to know better are correct.
It's like what Malcolm Dome said on this compilation of Diamond Head songs
called Am I Evil. He said that Lightning To The Nations was awesome and the
compilation Am I Evil represented the best of Diamond Head. Then he added that
Borrowed Time, the second album, sucked and had no originality on it. Unless I
am seeing things, the track listing of Am I Evil is almost identical to the
track listing of Borrowed Time - it's like Malcome Dome had to assert that he
was an old Diamond Head fan and "only newbies and posers like the MCA records"
(yes, Am I Evil has earlier versions of songs that eventually made it to
Borrowed Time so they're not the same tracks, but they are the same songs for
the most part). Or like how a few months ago someone said that every album
Samael did after Ceremony Of Opposites sucked (Samael still hasn't had an album
to follow up to Ceremony Of Opposites. All they have is just a CD-single which
had remakes of old songs done by the new lineup)
"I like all the mixed emotion and anger. It brings out the animal, the power
you can feel. And feeling so high on this much adrenalin, excited but scary to
believe what we've become..."
- IRON MAIDEN, "Lord Of The Flies"
James S. Kang
pw...@ciao.cc.columbia.edu (Philip Wang) wrote:
>>Dead right!
>>I'm sick to death that people keep saying that Metallica ruined metal.
>>How I ask? The black album sells ~15 million units, they tour for 3 years,
>>gain airplay and media coverage... For a metal band to achieve this much
>>and be blamed for ruining all metal is utterly ludicrous.
>>
>I think that the people ruining metal are the ones that find it necessary to
>trash any new release just because then they can say "the old stuff was
better"
>and usually it's just a matter of feeding the ego to have been around longer
>than any potential new fans.
I agree that this attitude is annoying. Some people seem to feel the need to
defend their "metalhood" by bitching about new stuff (particularly Metallica
and Megadeth). Granted, I don't like some newer metal as much, but I accept
that and find other music to listen to. And there is a wide range of metal
these days.
Incidentally, what is meant by "ruined?"
I think metal in general is pretty good these days. Poison and Motley Crue are
dead (although they're manifesting themselves in bands like Candlebox) and not
attaching themselves to the name of metal now. If you like metal just for it's
sheer brutality and energy, then 90's metal is a good place for you. While
nothing can match the energy and ferocity of Reign in Blood, there are many
more bands these days that are in that vein.
The only thing that really disappoints me about metal today is the overuse of
that cookie monster growling, rasping voice that bands like Immolation and
Suffocation love.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Glam should be nuked off the face of the earth."
--Kerry King
j-ka...@nwu.edu / jsk...@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
http://pubweb.acns.nwu.edu/~jsk527
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Ziad Kanna
pw...@ciao.cc.columbia.edu says...
r>
r>>
r>>Why do Metallica fans keep printing shit? Just accept that you like
the band
r>>and that most normal people gave up on them when they became shite.
The only
r>>uncharted territory happened back in Kill 'Em All & Ride The Lightning
days.
r>>These albums were different back then. Young. Fresh.
r>
r>They were young and fresh but they weren't treading new ground. In some
ways
r>they improved on it, but it was mostly stuff that was coming out of
Europe at
r>the time.
r>
r>>The new stuff (Masters,
r>>Justice, Black, anything else I missed) is just treading the same old
r>>ground. It's like Deep Purple without the musical genius & bad vocals.
r>>
r>
r>I never thought of Metallica is huge innovators anyway. They just
popularised
r>already existing metal styles.
r>
r>
r>>Defend the band until you die. That's cool. But don't talk shite.
That's not
r>>cool. :o)
r>
r>To me Metallica is Metallica. Good band, all their stuff is worth
listening
r>to, but actually I don't even own any Metallica records anymore (I gave
them
r>all away to friends). I'll even say that I traded my Garage Days
Re-Revisited
r>for an old Riot LP and I feel I got the better deal even if it turns
out that
r>it happens to not be one of their better records (Restless Breed -
still a
r>great metal LP though).
r>
r>
r>
r>
r>
I totally disagree. Master of Puppets is the best metal album(album in
general) to ever be produced. It is pure genius, and definitely epic.
They are pioneers of metal and the best metal band ever. You can't tell
me that they were just playing the same stuff that was coming from
Europe. And to say that they are like Deep Purple with out the musical
genius and bad vocals, that's crazy, please listen to any song on Master
of Puppets (especially Orion or Master of Puppets) and then tell me that
isn't genius.
Malgrinik
> I totally disagree. Master of Puppets is the best metal album(album in
> general) to ever be produced. It is pure genius, and definitely epic.
Yes, Master Of Puppets was great. But just because it's good doesn't mean
it makes them pioneers and innovators. The only real influence Metallica
ever had to metal was that they made it big doing speed metal and it
helped open a more commercial market for the style and encouraged other
bands to play heavy music that was fast. The only band I can think of
that sounds like they were influenced by Metallica is Testament. Just
about everyone else was influenced by the same bands Metallica was
influenced by.
> They are pioneers of metal and the best metal band ever. You can't tell
> me that they were just playing the same stuff that was coming from
> Europe.
Listen to the Kill 'Em All album and Ride The Lightning, and then listen
to Gaskin's End Of The World, Holocaust's The Nightcomers, Sweet Savage's
"Take No Prisoners" single and their Friday Rock Show sessions, Savage's
Loose N' Lethal, Angel Witch's 1st LP, Accept's Restless And Wild and
Breaker, Trespass's 1980 demos and Venom's 1st two albums. There are some
very strong similarities, especially between Sweet Savage and Metallica.
Can't find those records? Well that's how Metallica got a bit of a push -
Metallica actually ripped off bands like Gaskin and Sweet Savage early on
and no one in USA would notice because nobody here has ever heard of
them.
Master Of Puppets was the first album they had that they didn't rip off
any Europeans and they came up with their own style (but their own sound
clearly was there since Kill 'Em All). I attribute that to Cliff Burton,
and I think he was the band's musical genius.
And anyways what they were playing was pretty fashionable in Europe. At
the same time you had bands like Venom, Avenger, Satan, Blitzkrieg,
Artillery, Kreator, Bathory, Celtic Frost, Mayhem, Destruction, and so on
- they were all unleashing just as potent records as Metallica was.
Metallica did not invent speed metal. It was there a few years before
they even existed. They were lucky enough to become successful playing
it before anyone else did (well, they and Slayer did simultaneously with
Reign In Blood). There's a bit of difference.
>And to say that they are like Deep Purple with out the musical
> genius and bad vocals, that's crazy, please
I didn't say that they were like Deep Purple without genius and bad
vocals. Someone else said that. Well, I think James Hetfield isn't really
a good singer but he's much better now than he used to be.
>listen to any song on Master
> of Puppets (especially Orion or Master of Puppets) and then tell me that
> isn't genius.
Of course its musical genius.
>
>
>
>
MEGATON-MAN: "Look at them, helpless tender creatures, relying on me, waiting
for ME to make my move!"
(from below): "HEY, MOVE YOUR ASS, YOU FATHEAD!!!!!"
MEGATON-MAN: "It is a MANDATE! And I am DUTY-BOUND to OBEY!!!!"
Steph Taylor
zka...@vt.edu (Ziad Kanna) said:-
>I totally disagree. Master of Puppets is the best metal album(album in
>general) to ever be produced. It is pure genius, and definitely epic.
>They are pioneers of metal and the best metal band ever. You can't tell
>me that they were just playing the same stuff that was coming from
>Europe. And to say that they are like Deep Purple with out the musical
>genius and bad vocals, that's crazy, please listen to any song on Master
>of Puppets (especially Orion or Master of Puppets) and then tell me that
>isn't genius.
>
I won't argue that Master of Puppets isn't epic, but it is not a great
display of genius. By Masters..., Metallica had became a parody of the young
Metal Up Your Ass band that had set out to take on the world. They were the
establishment band by this time, but they tried their damndest to retain
their young, angry fan-base. Unfortunately, it worked. You can fool all of
the people some of the time etc etc, and so the black album sorted 'em out.
The idea that Metallica were pioneers is ludicrous. Even the band freely
admitted in interviews that they were heavily influenced by Venom &
Motorhead. Get your copy of Kill 'Em All out, & look real close at the badge
on Kirk Hamster's lapel (back cover photo) - a Venom 'Black Metal' badge.
They were never innovators. They were just lucky that they had good songs in
a particular genre that they helped to define as one of the first bands to
break through. A lot of their ideas came from Mustaine anyway.
I stand by my claim that they had become like one of the huge dinosaur bands
that they tried to replace. Listen to a Deep Purple live album, then listen
to a Metallica one. Pointless noodling, long solos, extended endings - spot
the similarities?
As I said in my original post, Metallica are a good band (or were, depending
on your point of view). As a fan, it is your right, perhaps even your duty
to stick up for them. But don't make stupid or unsupported claims. They were
not innovators. Buy a Hellhammer LP to hear innovation. Buy some Voi Vod for
innovation. Buy 'Reign In Blood' when it came out. That was innovation, and
it stood the test of time.
Anyway, I'm sure you'll come back with more of the same.
CYA
Steph.
__
O~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~O
"..Is it better to rule in hell than it is to serve in heaven?"
Child Of The Damned - Warlord
Steph Taylor st...@wuss.demon.co.uk
O~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~O
g...@vestkunst.no
>Nobody ruined metal, it's just not promoted by MTV anymore so everyone
>thinks that it's dead. It's just a great big cycle.
>
>Metal was big. Kids got fed up seeing industry metal bands and decided
>that they would listen to music that was not industry run. Nirvana came
>out and everyone latched on to it and decided that metal was dead.
I used to work at a college radio at that time. The industry tried to promote
different sorts of metal during the summer of 91. But then came Nirvana...
>
>Now grunge music is industry run and kids are going to get tired of
>listening to pussy bands that can't play and start listening to metal
>again.
Grunge may be ok, but I rather go for DIO, TNT and other proper eearly eighties
HM!!
*** Working hard right now ***
Gaute Singstad
e-mail :g...@vestkunst.no Phone: +47 55328447
This message contains various indecent arifacts!
Zorik Gelman
Shit, I didn't realize Metal was ruined in the first place.
Perhaps someone can explain why Metal is "ruined". I was listening to
my Reign In Blood tape yesterday, and it sounded just fine to me. I
guess those nasty people that "ruined metal" must have missed my
record collection in their metal-ruining spree.
Graham Ross
<most of article snipped, but I agree with it>
>It's like what Malcolm Dome said on this compilation of Diamond Head >songs called Am I Evil. He said that Lightning To The Nations=
was >awesome and the compilation Am I Evil represented the best of Diamond >Head. Then he added that Borrowed Time, the second albu=
m, sucked and >had no originality on it. Unless I am seeing things, the track listing >of Am I Evil is almost identical to the track=
listing of Borrowed Time >- it's like Malcome Dome had to assert that he was an old Diamond Head >fan and "only newbies and posers =
like the MCA records" (yes, Am I Evil >has earlier versions of songs that eventually made it to Borrowed Time >so they're not the sa=
me tracks, but they are the same songs for the >most part).
Almost all articles I've read say the reason that Lightning To The
Nations was far superior to Borrowed Time was specifically in terms of
sound quality and production. Further, 'Don't Ever Leave Me' on Borrowed
Time was written specifically at the request of MCA records, who wanted
a hit single, and even Sean Harris, who wrote it, doesn't actually like
it. Therefore, Malcolm Dome is entitled to that opinion - he was having
a go at the record company, not the fans (all of whom, except for a
lucky 1,000, have no option but to buy the MCA versions anyway).
Graham
Eat Some Paste
>Metal12 wrote:
>>
>> FUCK YOU!!!!!! MEGADETH RUINED METAL, ANTHRAX RUINED METAL, PANTERA RUINED
>> METAL, MOTLEY CRUE RUINED METAL, AC/DC RUINED EVERYTHING!!!!!! AND
>> AEROSMITH JUST PLAIN SUCKS!!!! BANDS LIKE METALLICA AND BLACK SABBATH MADE
>> IT BETTER.
>Jesus fucking christ.. metallica made it better...
>get some help man.
>ac/dc well, seeing as I'm a patriotic aussie I'll stick up for the bastards!
>OLD AC\DC is fuckign mint! new ac\dc has taken the fucked way out... money
>for nothing and fans for fuck all! bon scott made ac/dc, brian johnson killed
>it, so acdc died there and then.. phew..
>but shite, metallica, well mate, I think it's a fair assumption to say
>metallica, with their new style is crap.
>as for black sabath making it(the topic!) better?? I dunno. I HATE BLACK
>SABBATH so I cant say.....
>long live groups that give a shit.
>--
>MY BODY-MY MIND-MY CHOICE.
LABELING MUSIC RUINED METAL.......Thanks to the stupid fuckin word
"Alternative" now eveyone hates what has been traditionaly called
"metal". Like Alice in Chains are not Metal!!!!!!!!!! What the
hell!?!?!??!
ps. MTV/RAP are going to ruin the world
dan
new forms of music came along, and swept-up all the woul-be fans. we
now have "alternative" and "grunge" etc, etc, where the average age of the fans
is about 12, wasnt this true of metal in the early to mid 80's when
it was in its prime??? all these new bands have metal influences, some-
yimes even plagerizing and ripping-off previous song structures and design,
without even giving credit where its due. bands like nirvana, pearl jam,
and soundgarden think they are something new and wonderful, but that couldnt
be farther from the truth. metal church, and queensryche are from
seattle and bellevue respectively, and to juxtapose, they were new and
innovative when they came on the scene...metal has evolved, and i believe
returned to where it should have stayed:in the hands of dedicated fans
who care about the music, and not the labels placed on the music itself.
--dan
varg...@gmail.com
satanict...@gmail.com
> the term heavy metals was coined for musicians that coud'nt play very hard song or could not remember more than 2 or 3 songs before there little white brains overloaded. i saw all these metal bands back in the haze daze and they SUCKED they forgot there own lyrics and could not play the songs as they were recorded. the sales figures are bloated lies to say the least. i taught most of these posers and all thought mommy paid me well they were NOT sponges and very little was learned. they have a base of lyers who continue to promote these guys long after they stopped being productive. it is a sad comment on the decline of braincells and honesty. go buy a dreamtheatre album and grow up.... Varg...