Do classical music simply superior to any metal band in technique terms?

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morte

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Mar 7, 2002, 7:35:09 AM3/7/02
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From my limited understanding of classical music, it usually comprise
of a primary group of people playing a single instrument who is
supported rythmetically by other people. For instant, the violin play
an important melody and then supported by the bass, flute etc...Heavy
metal on the other hand sometime have different instrument play
differently but they somehow fit well together. Isnt that a
completely more advance form of music than simply having a main
instrument supported by a bunch of other instrument? By the way, i
really hope to hear more about this from people who actually graduated
by some famous classically trained music school.

Jason Sorens

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Mar 7, 2002, 9:54:39 AM3/7/02
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You can't really type "classical music" into any single definition. Baroque
music, for example, frequently involves extended harmonies among two, three,
or more instruments. In fact, much (most?) modern-day heavy metal is based
on baroque music, with some late romantic thrown in.

________________________________________________________________________

Jason P Sorens---jason.sorens@yale.edu---http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35

http://www.freestateproject.org - Do you want liberty in your lifetime?

morte

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Mar 8, 2002, 5:55:58 AM3/8/02
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Jason Sorens <jp...@ajax.its.yale.edu> wrote in message news:<a67uvf$b$1...@news.ycc.yale.edu>...

Thanks for the answer. By the way, why do people really need to go to
music school 6 years to make some boring "complex" music. I recently
downloaded xenakis...susposely the most complex band today. I found
that his music is single melody that is pretty much play in random
masturbatory direction that i could do so if i wanted to(the music
overall just suck). I would like your opinion on this as well.
thanks

Jason Sorens

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Mar 8, 2002, 11:03:06 AM3/8/02
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morte <man...@hotmail.com> wrote:

: Thanks for the answer. By the way, why do people really need to go to


: music school 6 years to make some boring "complex" music. I recently
: downloaded xenakis...susposely the most complex band today. I found
: that his music is single melody that is pretty much play in random
: masturbatory direction that i could do so if i wanted to(the music
: overall just suck). I would like your opinion on this as well.
: thanks

I haven't heard Xenakis. I'm certainly no music theorist, but I would divide complexity
into two kinds: "horizontal" and "vertical." Vertical complexity refers to complexity of
harmonics, while horizontal complexity refers to complexity of time signatures & rhythms.
Vertical complexity tends to be more naturally pleasing to the human ear, while horizontal
complexity appeals to a more abstract intuition. As far as complex metal goes, vertical
complexity is mostly to be found in symphonic metal (Haggard, Therion), but also to some
extent in all melodic metal, as electric guitars give off many frequencies at once,
creating a natural harmonic effect. Horizontal complexity is more typical of progressive
and technical bands, like Dream Theater, Spiral Architect, Theory in Practice, Meshuggah,
et al.

It's important to note that all the above is basically talking out of my ass, as I'm a fan
and not a musician. But maybe it helps someone.

morte

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Mar 8, 2002, 10:29:56 PM3/8/02
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Jason Sorens <jp...@ajax.its.yale.edu> wrote in message news:<a6anbq$e9n$1...@news.ycc.yale.edu>...
Thanks, i never thought of in the level of vertical or horizontal
before. I thought dream theater have some song that is quite catchy
and pleasing to the ear(acid rain). You mean if creating complexity
music is creating new style of rythym and new style of harmonic in
nature? How about band that create a completely different sound. How
about the classical band. There's this one concert to susposely the
greatest symphony orchestra in the world and it cost like 800 bucks
per ticket. My school sponsor so i can go and i find their music are
boring as hell. Not exactly that abstract in different style and
certainly nothing new or originial. They're using the same formula
for most classical concert...lead violin and everybody else rythym.
By the way, my dad said classical music survive the test of time
because they're more advance and complex than other form of music...is
this true or simply because they're one of the first style of music
and since they're old..people think they survive the time. I like
more of your thought on this. Thanks

Jason Sorens

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Mar 8, 2002, 10:50:46 PM3/8/02
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morte <man...@hotmail.com> wrote:
:> http://www.freestateproject.org - Do you want liberty in your lifetime?

: Thanks, i never thought of in the level of vertical or horizontal
: before. I thought dream theater have some song that is quite catchy
: and pleasing to the ear(acid rain).

Are you sure you aren't thinking of Angra? There's a song called "Acid Rain"
on their new album, but I've never heard a Dream Theater song by that name,
and I have all their albums.

: You mean if creating complexity


: music is creating new style of rythym and new style of harmonic in
: nature?

Not necessarily "new," in that you can have something that's complex but not
original. But typically originality and complexity are related, because the
more complex the music, the greater the factors that can be tweaked to create
something new.

: How about band that create a completely different sound. How


: about the classical band. There's this one concert to susposely the
: greatest symphony orchestra in the world and it cost like 800 bucks
: per ticket. My school sponsor so i can go and i find their music are
: boring as hell. Not exactly that abstract in different style and
: certainly nothing new or originial. They're using the same formula
: for most classical concert...lead violin and everybody else rythym.

Well, there are different types of classical pieces. The concerto is
generally for a lead instrument, sometimes with just a single accompanying
instrument (piano for violin concertos). A symphony involves a great number
of instruments and can have leads from all or some of them, along with the
harmonies. Symphony is, I think, generally considered the epitome of
classical music, certainly of classical music composition. Concertos can
sometimes display technical virtuosity, though; check out Mendelssohn's
Violinconcerto: wow! But classical music does have a problem with
originality. Almost all the classical music composed in the last 80 years
sucks, so people go back to playing the old stuff. It gets really tired.
A lot of heavy metal music is just as complex as classical music, but more
original, so I generally prefer to listen to heavy metal. (And obviously
a lot of heavy metal sucks too - but you can have a very sizeable
collection of just really good heavy metal CDs.) But maybe your
appreciation for classical would be enhanced by listening to some symphonic
metal. I would especially recommend Haggard and Therion.

morte

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Mar 10, 2002, 3:29:47 AM3/10/02
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Jason Sorens <jp...@ajax.its.yale.edu> wrote in message news:<a6c0qm$n43$1...@news.ycc.yale.edu>...

> morte <man...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> :> http://www.freestateproject.org - Do you want liberty in your lifetime?
> : Thanks, i never thought of in the level of vertical or horizontal
> : before. I thought dream theater have some song that is quite catchy
> : and pleasing to the ear(acid rain).
>
> Are you sure you aren't thinking of Angra? There's a song called "Acid Rain"
> on their new album, but I've never heard a Dream Theater song by that name,
> and I have all their albums.

Dream theater *does have the song acid rain...completely different
from angra. It's a fav for a lot of DT fans. I would strongly
recommmend you check it out.


>
> : You mean if creating complexity
> : music is creating new style of rythym and new style of harmonic in
> : nature?
>
> Not necessarily "new," in that you can have something that's complex but not
> original. But typically originality and complexity are related, because the
> more complex the music, the greater the factors that can be tweaked to create
> something new.
>
> : How about band that create a completely different sound. How
> : about the classical band. There's this one concert to susposely the
> : greatest symphony orchestra in the world and it cost like 800 bucks
> : per ticket. My school sponsor so i can go and i find their music are
> : boring as hell. Not exactly that abstract in different style and
> : certainly nothing new or originial. They're using the same formula
> : for most classical concert...lead violin and everybody else rythym.
>
> Well, there are different types of classical pieces. The concerto is
> generally for a lead instrument, sometimes with just a single accompanying
> instrument (piano for violin concertos). A symphony involves a great number
> of instruments and can have leads from all or some of them, along with the
> harmonies. Symphony is, I think, generally considered the epitome of
> classical music, certainly of classical music composition. Concertos can
> sometimes display technical virtuosity, though; check out Mendelssohn's
> Violinconcerto: wow! But classical music does have a problem with

Thanks, I'll check it out.


> originality. Almost all the classical music composed in the last 80 years
> sucks, so people go back to playing the old stuff. It gets really tired.
> A lot of heavy metal music is just as complex as classical music, but more
> original, so I generally prefer to listen to heavy metal. (And obviously
> a lot of heavy metal sucks too - but you can have a very sizeable
> collection of just really good heavy metal CDs.) But maybe your
> appreciation for classical would be enhanced by listening to some symphonic
> metal. I would especially recommend Haggard and Therion.

Yeah, lots of heavy metal band quite suck, a lot of power metal band
used the same o'l iron maiden formula for their music(definitely
lacking creativity). Hmm, I listen to symphony X, is that symphonic
metal? Oh yeah, I hate those black metal band who uses tons of
synthesizer and gay keyboard to create a "gothic sounds" I think it's
quite cheesy(cradle of filth, dimmu borgir). People consider those
sound "symphonic". Hmm, lots of heavy metal are creative but their
music are extremely repetitive that to put frankly...it just suck
regardless(exodus). Sorry about my poor gramma and thanks for putting
up with me until now. Peace

Jason Sorens

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Mar 10, 2002, 2:53:56 PM3/10/02
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morte <Man...@hotmail.com> wrote:

: Dream theater *does have the song acid rain...completely different


: from angra. It's a fav for a lot of DT fans. I would strongly
: recommmend you check it out.

Well, I would, but as it's not on any of their albums, I'm not sure where to
find it. ;)

: Yeah, lots of heavy metal band quite suck, a lot of power metal band


: used the same o'l iron maiden formula for their music(definitely
: lacking creativity). Hmm, I listen to symphony X, is that symphonic
: metal?

Not in the usual sense. Symphony X usually are considered "neoclassical
progressive." The difference between "neoclassical" and "symphonic" is that
neoclassical metal bands use traditional metal instruments to play
classical-style melodies, while symphonic metal bands also incorporate
symphony instruments: violin, piano, etc.

: Oh yeah, I hate those black metal band who uses tons of


: synthesizer and gay keyboard to create a "gothic sounds" I think it's
: quite cheesy(cradle of filth, dimmu borgir). People consider those
: sound "symphonic".

No, it isn't really symphonic, just cheesy as you say. ;)

Guy Raguin

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Mar 11, 2002, 9:02:45 AM3/11/02
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On 10 Mar 2002, Jason Sorens wrote:

> morte <Man...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> : Dream theater *does have the song acid rain...completely different
> : from angra. It's a fav for a lot of DT fans. I would strongly
> : recommmend you check it out.
>
> Well, I would, but as it's not on any of their albums, I'm not sure where to
> find it. ;)
>
> : Yeah, lots of heavy metal band quite suck, a lot of power metal band
> : used the same o'l iron maiden formula for their music(definitely
> : lacking creativity). Hmm, I listen to symphony X, is that symphonic
> : metal?
>
> Not in the usual sense. Symphony X usually are considered "neoclassical
> progressive." The difference between "neoclassical" and "symphonic" is that
> neoclassical metal bands use traditional metal instruments to play
> classical-style melodies, while symphonic metal bands also incorporate
> symphony instruments: violin, piano, etc.
>
> : Oh yeah, I hate those black metal band who uses tons of
> : synthesizer and gay keyboard to create a "gothic sounds" I think it's
> : quite cheesy(cradle of filth, dimmu borgir). People consider those
> : sound "symphonic".
>
> No, it isn't really symphonic, just cheesy as you say. ;)


Not that I like Dimmu Borgir (or CoF), but didn't they use an actual
orchestra on their last album ? I remember reading that somewhere.

Also note that some bands cannot afford to hire actual violin players or a
full orchestra and yet write music for "classical music" parts and have to
use synths to recreate them. My point is that as much as synths do not
make a music part "symphonic" by default, they sometimes do (even if it
may not sound right).


-Guy

Jason Sorens

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Mar 11, 2002, 9:15:40 PM3/11/02
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Guy Raguin <rag...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:

: Not that I like Dimmu Borgir (or CoF), but didn't they use an actual


: orchestra on their last album ? I remember reading that somewhere.

Not that I know of. It's possible, though: I haven't heard either band's newest stuff.

: Also note that some bands cannot afford to hire actual violin players or a


: full orchestra and yet write music for "classical music" parts and have to
: use synths to recreate them. My point is that as much as synths do not
: make a music part "symphonic" by default, they sometimes do (even if it
: may not sound right).

That's true, though as you say there's something missing. Even Song would be an example
of a symphonic band that uses synths.

GeekUSA

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Mar 14, 2002, 3:43:24 PM3/14/02
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THe song acid rain is the from the album LIQUID TENSION EXPERIMENT 2 which
is just dream theater minus james and myung, and with tony levin on bass
(this is rudess era)

an awsome album check it out

Jason Sorens <jp...@ajax.its.yale.edu> wrote in message

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