Query re: Goldhagen
Mona
in debating with Holocaust negationists whether that event(s) occurred. I
will, in fact, ignore neo-Nazis or deniers replying to me. My inquiry is
directed at the rational persons here who assume the awful duty of answering
deniers in this ng -- not something I would want to take on. I direct my
query to them because such person are likely to be well versed in the
scholarly debates surrounding the Holocaust.
For many reasons I've been reading a great deal lately about the
Holocaust -- including the denier phenomenon -- and so have been rereading
Goldhagen's "Hitler's Willing Executioners." I am given to understand that
among *real* historians his thesis has come under some rather severe
criticism. What is the consensus here (among non-deniers) regarding
Goldhagen, and do have any links to the "best of" both defense and criticism
of Goldhagen's POV, from sane and scholarly sources?
Thanks.
--Mona--
"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to
gain ground."
-Thomas Jefferson-
Gassen Burnham
"Mona" <Mona....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:SvAjc.28876$_o3.9...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
ROTFLMFAO.... Poor old 'Mona' makes a clumsy attempt to deny the fact 'she'
is a tried and true exterminationist.... but alas, her use of their boring
vernacular gives 'her' away.
Sara Salzman
"Mona" <Mona....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Mona:
Here's a good place to start:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/questions/goldhagen.shtml
Sara
Gassen Burnham
"Sara Salzman" <cata...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:catamont-FB1BB3...@news-60.giganews.com...
'Mona' comes out of the woodwork and answers her own post.
Gassen Burnham
"Sara Salzman" <cata...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:catamont-FB1BB3...@news-60.giganews.com...
You are a fraudster, 'Mona' the Fist.
Posting yourself Dear Dorothy messages is the pits, next you will be sending
yourself advice on self flagellation.
Mona
http://www.holocaust-history.org/questions/goldhagen.shtml
<<
Thank you, that is, indeed, the kind of source I am looking for. I read
Richard J. Green's review of the Finkelstein and Brin's arguments re:
Goldhagen, and bookmarked the rest of that link for later, but soon,
consideration. Googling Goldhagen produced so many hits I decided to just
ask for links from those who would already know where the "meat" is. Thank
you so much.
BTW, I got into this rather oddly. My primary area of interest is American
religious movements and I had been looking into whether extreme opposition
to the Church of Scientology is justified as something other than religious
bigotry (I've concluded that it certainly can be). Whilst arguing about the
CoS with people at my favorite libertarian blog, Reason.com, I was led to
alt.religion.scientology, and then discovered that a CoS member, one Tom
Marcellus, had been with the IHR. Interestingly enough, one of the fiercest
critics of the CoS visited Willis Carto at IHR headquarters and had nice
things to say about him. So, while researching the CoS I kept bumping into
deniers.
That was just a couple of months ago. Then, only a few weeks ago, I became
outraged when one of the Reason editors eulogized James P. Martin for his
wonderful libertarian/anarchist historical analysis, which should outweigh,
so the editor said, Martin's unfortunate decision to ultimately go with the
IHR and Holocaust denial. I quoted some from Goldhagen's book as part of my
reasoning for not extending latitude to deniers, and some of the email I
received as a result indicated I was being "naive," that Goldhagen is
repudiated by bona fide historians, and not just deniers. (Some was also
from feverish deiners who were, um, intemperate in their shared opinions of
me.) Anyhoo, suddenly, matters pertaining to the Holocaust and deniers were
suddenly cropping up left and right.
--Mona--
"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to
gain ground."
-Thomas Jefferson-
"Sara Salzman" <cata...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:catamont-FB1BB3...@news-60.giganews.com...
John Morris
Hash: SHA1
In <coCjc.29214$_o3.9...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> in
alt.revisionism, on Tue, 27 Apr 2004 23:53:44 GMT, "Mona"
<Mona....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Sara writes: >>Here's a good place to start:
> http://www.holocaust-history.org/questions/goldhagen.shtml
> Thank you, that is, indeed, the kind of source I am looking for. I
> read Richard J. Green's review of the Finkelstein and Brin's
> arguments re: Goldhagen, and bookmarked the rest of that link for
> later, but soon, consideration. Googling Goldhagen produced so many
> hits I decided to just ask for links from those who would already
> know where the "meat" is. Thank you so much.
Finkelstein's critique is, as usual, just a rant, especially when he
goes on an on about Goldhagen's Zionist backers (as if one needs
Zionist backers to get a novel historical thesis published by a
mainstream publisher). Birn's analysis is much more balanced.
The scholarly criticisms and reviews I've read seem to agree that
Goldhagen relies on a single factor, antisemitism, to explain the
Holocaust. Given that antisemitism has existed in a variety of forms
and in a great many places without leading to extermination,
antisemitism alone seems to be insufficient as an explanatory factor.
There are also profound differences between religious and racialist
antisemitism that Goldhagen seems to pass over. For religious
antisemites, a Jew can cease to be a Jew, but a Jew is always a Jew
in the eyes of racialist antisemites.
Goldhagen's scholarship is weak in places as well. He relies very
heavily on his own undergraduate work on the Einsatzgruppen even
though Birn gave him a great of material that's not been written up.
Birn is miffed, of course, because her life's work has been with the
historical group for the Canadian Justice Department, and most of
their investigations were into members of the Einstazgruppen and
their auxiliaries who emigrated to Canada after the war.
> BTW, I got into this rather oddly. My primary area of interest is
> American religious movements and I had been looking into whether
> extreme opposition to the Church of Scientology is justified as
> something other than religious bigotry (I've concluded that it
> certainly can be). Whilst arguing about the CoS with people at my
> favorite libertarian blog, Reason.com, I was led to
> alt.religion.scientology, and then discovered that a CoS member,
> one Tom Marcellus, had been with the IHR. Interestingly enough, one
> of the fiercest critics of the CoS visited Willis Carto at IHR
> headquarters and had nice things to say about him. So, while
> researching the CoS I kept bumping into deniers.
> That was just a couple of months ago. Then, only a few weeks ago, I
> became outraged when one of the Reason editors eulogized James P.
> Martin for his wonderful libertarian/anarchist historical analysis,
> which should outweigh, so the editor said, Martin's unfortunate
> decision to ultimately go with the IHR and Holocaust denial. I
> quoted some from Goldhagen's book as part of my reasoning for not
> extending latitude to deniers, and some of the email I received as
> a result indicated I was being "naive," that Goldhagen is
> repudiated by bona fide historians, and not just deniers. (Some was
> also from feverish deiners who were, um, intemperate in their
> shared opinions of me.) Anyhoo, suddenly, matters pert-----BEGIN
> PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
In <coCjc.29214$_o3.9...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> in
alt.revisionism, on Tue, 27 Apr 2004 23:53:44 GMT, "Mona"
<Mona....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Sara writes: >>Here's a good place to start:
> http://www.holocaust-history.org/questions/goldhagen.shtml
> Thank you, that is, indeed, the kind of source I am looking for. I
> read Richard J. Green's review of the Finkelstein and Brin's
> arguments re: Goldhagen, and bookmarked the rest of that link for
> later, but soon, consideration. Googling Goldhagen produced so many
> hits I decided to just ask for links from those who would already
> know where the "meat" is. Thank you so much.
Finkelstein's critique is, as usual, just a rant, especially when he
goes on an on about Goldhagen's Zionist backers (as if one needs
Zionist backers to get a novel historical thesis published by a
mainstream publisher). Birn's analysis is much more balanced.
The scholarly criticisms and reviews I've read seem to agree that
Goldhagen relies on a single factor, antisemitism, to explain the
Holocaust. Given that antisemitism has existed in a variety of forms
and in a great many places without leading to extermination,
antisemitism alone seems to be insufficient as an explanatory factor.
There are also profound differences between religious and racialist
antisemitism that Goldhagen seems to pass over. For religious
antisemites, a Jew can cease to be a Jew, but a Jew is always a Jew
in the eyes of racialist antisemites.
Goldhagen's scholarship is weak in places as well. He relies very
heavily on his own undergraduate work on the Einsatzgruppen even
though Birn gave him a great of material that's not been written up.
Birn is miffed, of course, because her life's work has been with the
historical group for the Canadian Justice Department, and most of
their investigations were into members of the Einstazgruppen and
their auxiliaries who emigrated to Canada after the war.
> BTW, I got into this rather oddly. My primary area of interest is
> American religious movements and I had been looking into whether
> extreme opposition to the Church of Scientology is justified as
> something other than religious bigotry (I've concluded that it
> certainly can be). Whilst arguing about the CoS with people at my
> favorite libertarian blog, Reason.com, I was led to
> alt.religion.scientology, and then discovered that a CoS member,
> one Tom Marcellus, had been with the IHR. Interestingly enough, one
> of the fiercest critics of the CoS visited Willis Carto at IHR
> headquarters and had nice things to say about him. So, while
> researching the CoS I kept bumping into deniers.
> That was just a couple of months ago. Then, only a few weeks ago, I
> became outraged when one of the Reason editors eulogized James P.
> Martin for his wonderful libertarian/anarchist historical analysis,
> which should outweigh, so the editor said, Martin's unfortunate
> decision to ultimately go with the IHR and Holocaust denial. I
> quoted some from Goldhagen's book as part of my reasoning for not
> extending latitude to deniers, and some of the email I received as
> a result indicated I was being "naive," that Goldhagen is
> repudiated by bona fide historians, and not just deniers. (Some was
> also from feverish deiners who were, um, intemperate in their
> shared opinions of me.) Anyhoo, suddenly, matters pertaining to the
> Holocaust and deniers were suddenly cropping up left and right.
Well, it's not Goldhagen's facts are wrong. It's just that his
thesis is seen to be naive and underdeveloped and his research
underdetermined and unoriginal. So don't see how you could be
faulted for citing him on the facts.
Martin, on the other hand, perplexes the hell out of me. I don't
understand how you can do good historical work in one topic,
anarchism, and go completely into the lunatic fringe in another, the
Holocaust.
- --
John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
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Sara Salzman
"Gassen Burnham" <gassen_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Note that Ross Cummins cannot help himself once again from fixating on
me and what he believes to be my sex life.
I'm not Mona, Brainiac. Check the headers. I couldn't care less about
Goldhagen and Finkelstein.
Sara
Sara Salzman
And Ross Cummins posts two responses to a single post.
Sara
Eugene Holman
John....@UAlberta.CA wrote:
<deletions>
> Goldhagen's scholarship is weak in places as well. He relies very
> heavily on his own undergraduate work on the Einsatzgruppen even
> though Birn gave him a great of material that's not been written up.
> Birn is miffed, of course, because her life's work has been with the
> historical group for the Canadian Justice Department, and most of
> their investigations were into members of the Einstazgruppen and
> their auxiliaries who emigrated to Canada after the war.
>
<deletions>
Although Goldhagen's scholarship has weaknesses, his book is important in
that it gives a clear picture of the Holocaust as a complex and
goal-directed process. On the practical level he focuses little attention
on the gas chambers, death camps, and forces labor, about which so much
has already been written, and concentrates on the predations of the
Einsatzkommandos, that eventually led to the decision to centralize
killings and have them occur behind closed doors, and death marches, the
preferred mode of killing after the camps had been liquidated. He leaves
no doubt about the fact that killing, not economic exploitation, was the
primary goal of the Holocaust, and he puts a human face on the
perpetrators by making extensive use of case studies and focusing on
individual units and people, driving home his point that the killers were,
for the most part, otherwise ordinary people with normal lives outside of
their killing modality who had, indeed, become "Hitler's willing
executioners".
<deletions>
> The scholarly criticisms and reviews I've read seem to agree that
> Goldhagen relies on a single factor, antisemitism, to explain the
> Holocaust. Given that antisemitism has existed in a variety of forms
> and in a great many places without leading to extermination,
> antisemitism alone seems to be insufficient as an explanatory factor.
Anti-Semitism has been common enough through history, but never has it
acquired the racial, political, and nihilistic dimensions that it had in
Nazi Germany. People were regarded by the Nazis as Jews even if they were
church-going Catholics, due to the fact that they had had Jewish parents
or grandparents. This racial definition of Jew was applied not only in
Germany, but was extended by the Nazis to all of the countries to whose
Jews they acquired access.
Jews were blamed collectively by the Nazis for ideologies and practices
which had disrupted the "natural order" of things. Most clearly this meant
Soviet-style communism, whose roots, supposedly, were in the writings of
the anti-Semitic German atheist of Jewish backround, Karl Marx. The fact
that Marx was of Jewish background, even though he had thoroughly and
publicly rejected his Jewish heritage, sufficed to make communism a Jewish
doctrine and the Soviet Union a Jewish state, even if communism was
popularized as a doctrine by the German gentile Friedrich Engels and first
implemented in Russia under the leadership of an ethnic Russian, Vladimir
Lenin. In other writings, some widely circulated, others known mostly to
the inner circle, Nazi ideologues also blamed Jews for Germany's loss of
WW I, war profiteering, the Versailles Treaty, clanishness, laziness,
hyperinflation, paper money, charging interest on leant money, abstract
art, pornography, sentimental music, capitalism, the effeminization of
men, and, most damning of all, Christianity, a religion that teaches
mercy, forgiveness, and humility, and requires aggressive Aryan men to
submissively worship a Jewish God. This all pervasive and destructive
Jewish influence, this "Unglück" that the Jews have bought upon the
peoples of Europe (and which is the primary theme of the illustration on
the cover of Goldhagen's book in its popularly published editions), could,
in the view of the Nazis, only be dealt with nihilistically, by
Ausrottung: exterminating every Jew they could get their hands on,
confiscating all of their property and assets, since they had allegedly
been acquired parasitically from Aryans by deceit and swindling, and, if
possible, getting some compensation for past offenses by forcing Jews to
do some honest, if degrading and forced, labor.
Goldhagen does an excellent job of demonstrating the development of
anti-Semtism into a seemingly rational ideology of the type outlined
above, and he convincingly relates it to the wider context of German
culture and history. Whereas I cannot accept his strong claim that
anti-Semitism of the Nazi kind could only have been formulated within the
context of German culture and history and is a natural consequence of
them, I fully agree with him that the Nazi version of racially-based,
ideological, nihilistic anti-Semitism cannot be understood without a
knowledge of German culture and the virulent anti-Semitism which has
played a major role in defining the intellectual space within which it has
been evolving since the Middle Ages.
> There are also profound differences between religious and racialist
> antisemitism that Goldhagen seems to pass over. For religious
> antisemites, a Jew can cease to be a Jew, but a Jew is always a Jew
> in the eyes of racialist antisemites.
Goldhagen hardly passes them over: he does a credible job of relating the
Nazi type of racialist anti-Semitism to trends that have played a role in
determing the specific *Weltanschauung* which defines German and, in a
broader sense, colonialist, culture.
> Goldhagen's scholarship is weak in places as well. He relies very
> heavily on his own undergraduate work on the Einsatzgruppen even
> though Birn gave him a great of material that's not been written up.
> Birn is miffed, of course, because her life's work has been with the
> historical group for the Canadian Justice Department, and most of
> their investigations were into members of the Einstazgruppen and
> their auxiliaries who emigrated to Canada after the war.
>
<deletions>
The weaknesses notwithstanding, his book played an important practical
role in demonstrating the importance of the Einsatzgruppen period of the
Holocaust as a necessary prelude to the extermination camps. The picture
that many non-specialists had of the Holocaust before the publication of
Goldhagen's book emphasized the deportations, concentration camps, and
extermination centers with little or no examination of what preceded or
followed them. Now, instead of seeing them and the policies related to
them as something that sprang up spontaneously, we see that publicly
performed mass shootings reached limits in terms of logistics and
political acceptablity, and, for practical and political reasons, had to
be replaced by something more "sanitary" carried on behind closed doors if
the nihilistic objectives of *Ausrottung* were ever to be achieved.
Goldhagen's other practical innovation, his focus on the death marches,
another aspect of the Holocaust usually glossed over, brings home the fact
that even during the final days of the war, when German defeat was
assured, official policy was still to sadistically mistreat and kill Jews.
On a more abstract level, Goldhagen is to be praised for his efforts, not
completely successful but important nevertheless, to understand the
Holocaust as a phenomenon within the wider context of German culture,
history, and thinking.
> Well, it's not Goldhagen's facts are wrong. It's just that his
> thesis is seen to be naive and underdeveloped and his research
> underdetermined and unoriginal. So don't see how you could be
> faulted for citing him on the facts.
<deletions>
Goldhagen is an important source. Like all important sources it can be
criticized, but it has many strong points and should be read thoroughly by
everyone with a scholarly interest in the how and why of the Holocaust. It
is a profoundly disturbing and thought-provoking book.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Gassen Burnham
Oh yes you are, I checked the route of the post and hey presto, they are
identical.
You are Mona alright, pervert.
Eugene Holman
<gassen_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Sara Salzman" <cata...@concentric.net> wrote in message
> news:catamont-8D600D...@news-60.giganews.com...
<deletions>
> > I'm not Mona, Brainiac. Check the headers.> Sara
>
> Oh yes you are, I checked the route of the post and hey presto, they are
> identical.
> You are Mona alright, pervert.
Sara's header as it appears on my Helsinki-based computer is posted below,
and she posts using the MT-NewsWatcher/3.4 program on a Mac using OS X.
Path:
news.helsinki.fi!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!fi.sn.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!news2.euro.net!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 22:17:45 -0500
From: Sara Salzman <cata...@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Query re: Goldhagen
Organization: Concentric Internet Services
References: <SvAjc.28876$_o3.9...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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Mona's is:
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From: "Mona" <Mona....@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Query re: Goldhagen
Lines: 33
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Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 21:45:22 GMT
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Mona, on the other hand, is using Microsoft software and a different IS
provider, AT&T Worldnet, as opposed to Sara's Giganews.
Conclusion: you are, at best, wrong, at worst (and most probably), lying.
Eugene Holman
Sara Salzman
"Gassen Burnham" <gassen_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Nope. And you are a liar. For one thing, I'm on a Macintosh, you Moron.
Sara
From: "Mona" <Mona....@worldnet.att.net>
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-----
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From: Sara Salzman <cata...@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Query re: Goldhagen
Organization: Concentric Internet Services
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Mona
you Moron.<<
I swore I was not going to even acknowledge people like that creature, but
here I go: I can understand the reason for keeping up a flow of responses to
his substantive claims for the benefit of lurkers who might otherwise
believe some of his nonsense, but it responding to silliness about me being
you and rebutting with path history and stuff gives him what he wants, i.e.,
it keeps the board clogged with diversionary crap.
Anyway, to John and Eugene: I do have to agree with Eugene that Goldhagen
makes *amply* clear the difference between religious and racialist
anti-Semitism and that, indeed, that distinction is rather the linchpin of
his thesis. One of the online reviews of Willing Executioners I ran into was
Richard John Neuhaus', of the religiously conservative First Things journal,
flying into high dudgeon and railing against Goldhagen for the latter's
indictment of Xian ministers in Nazi Germany. (Neuhaus advocates that
Xianity -- as well as Judaism, he is not anti-Semitic and bows before
religious Jews -- is the essential prophylactic against social and
political evil, so one can see why Goldhagen's POV would send him into such
a snit.) Goldhagen argues that the ubiquitous racialist anti-Semitism had
supplanted the religious variety, which in turn caused even Xians who
dissented from the Reich and from exterminationist policies to agree there
was a "Jew problem." Neuhaus thinks Goldhagen unreasonably expected them to
be martyrs and otherwise defends his co-religionists of that era in Germany.
--Mona--
"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to
gain ground."
-Thomas Jefferson-
"Sara Salzman" <cata...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:catamont-48E250...@news-60.giganews.com...
rider in the storm
Sara Salzman
hol...@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
At best, he is lying. At worst, he is such a stupid, sexually-obsessed
moron than he cannot help himself.
Sara
Eugene Holman
<tsh...@Houston.rr.com> wrote:
> why don't you buy a realpc and get rid of that homosexual computer
Homosexual? My two Macs, an iBook and an iMac, are sexy, but hardly homosexual.
Sara and I use Macs running Mac OS X. I don't now about her, but on the
rare occasions when I need to use a PC, I run my PC emulator on my Mac.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Joebruno
People in Australia refuse to play chess with Ross anymore. He kept
molesting his Queen.
http://www.olsoncomputers.com/prime/MIDIs/Alphabetical/j/johnhardy.mid
steve wolk
Both. He is a lying, stupid, sexually-obsessed
moron who cannot help himself.
--
There is a small minority of the world's population who, by virtue of their
amorality and bigotry, are not fit to associate with civilized society. If
you made a hierarchy of all the people in this sub-underclass, the MBFDU,
Ross Cummins, would be ranked in the bottom quartile. Scum in human form.
>
> Sara
Gord McFee
Burnham wrote:
> "Sara Salzman" <cata...@concentric.net> wrote in message
> news:catamont-8D600D...@news-60.giganews.com...
[...]
>> Note that Ross Cummins cannot help himself once again from fixating on
>> me and what he believes to be my sex life.
>>
>> I'm not Mona, Brainiac. Check the headers.> Sara
>
> Oh yes you are, I checked the route of the post and hey presto, they are
> identical.
No they are not. One is from Colorado, the other from Indiana.
Sober up, Ross.
--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time
Visit the Holocaust History Project
http://www.holocaust-history.org
Gord McFee
<news:catamont-489436...@news-60.giganews.com>, Sara Salzman
wrote:
How about a lying, stupid, sexually obsessed moron?
Mona
Um, yeah, South Bend. Geez, you can learn that from my path data? I guess I
need to be more paranoid.
--Mona--
"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to
gain ground."
-Thomas Jefferson-
"Gord McFee" <gord....@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:1wq9ywdeiz2k4.b...@40tude.net...
steve wolk
> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:44:53 -0600, in
> <news:catamont-489436...@news-60.giganews.com>, Sara Salzman
> wrote:
>
> > In article <holman-2804...@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi>,
> > hol...@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
> >
> >> In article <408fa...@127.0.0.1>, "Gassen Burnham"
> >> <gassen_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> "Sara Salzman" <cata...@concentric.net> wrote in message
> >>> news:catamont-8D600D...@news-60.giganews.com...
> >> <deletions>
> >>
> >>> > I'm not Mona, Brainiac. Check the headers.> Sara
> >>>
> >>> Oh yes you are, I checked the route of the post and hey presto, they
are
> >>> identical.
> >>> You are Mona alright, pervert.
> >>
> >> Sara's header as it appears on my Helsinki-based computer is posted
below,
> >> and she posts using the MT-NewsWatcher/3.4 program on a Mac using OS X.
> >>
> >> Path:
> >>
.s
> >>
n.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!news2.euro.net!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.
gi
> >>
ganews.com!local1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mai
l
Proof that great minds think alike.
Sara Salzman
Gord McFee <gord....@rogers.com> wrote:
As a wise man once said, "BINGO!"
Sara
Gassen Burnham
.
>
>For one thing, I'm on a Macintosh,
>
I don't give a shit what sort of rubber article you lie on to keep the baby
oil off the bedclothes...pervert!
Sara Salzman
"Gassen Burnham" <gassen_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Sara Salzman" <cata...@concentric.net> wrote in message
> news:catamont-48E250...@news-60.giganews.com...
> .
> >
> >For one thing, I'm on a Macintosh,
> >
> > Sara
>
> I don't give a shit what sort of rubber article you lie on to keep the baby
> oil off the bedclothes...pervert!
>
Poor Ross. Not only is he caught in a blatant lie, his only recourse is
to focus on what he imagines to be my sex life.
Get help, Mr. Cummins. You really need it.
Sara
Gord McFee
<news:ymZjc.61789$um3.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Mona
wrote:
>>> the other from Indiana.<<
>
> Um, yeah, South Bend. Geez, you can learn that from my path data? I guess I
> need to be more paranoid.
Not from me you don't.