Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
Debunks
This will conclude our examination of the book "The Beautiful Beast," by
Michael Patrick Brown, who writes in Chapter VI:
"…British legal teams began to arrive at Bergen and the initial investigations
into Nazi war crimes at the camp began. In very short order, investigators
began to hear numerous startling accusations against the strikingly beautiful
SS-guard named Irma Grese."
COMMENT: Of course, as Brown himself had proven in prior chapters, Miss Grese
was not SS, but merely an SS auxiliary helper, as women were prohibited from SS
membership. Furthermore, it would certainly have been much more interesting
had the author supplied us with the names of these "British" investigators and
interrogators, as well as a description of the methods employed by them to
collate "evidence" against the accused. However, the author does manage to
share at least one interesting tidbit with us:
"Following their arrest, the SS-Aufseherinnen were imprisoned in the
neighboring Wehrmacht Tank Training School, (By this the author means those
women who had not died from typhus, due to British maltreatment and war crimes
violations concerning correct treatment of POW’s—jb) approximately 3 kilometers
up the road from Bergen-Belsen. Prior even to the formal indictment being read
against the accused SS-guards, an English journalist arrived to write a story
about the "beautiful Nazi woman." The correspondent, accompanied by a French
survivor who was…filled with rage, was granted permission to interview Grese
and the ensuing interview quickly evolved into a shouting match, the young
"survivor" ordered Miss Grese to stand up straight and not to lean against the
wall."
COMMENT: In fact, vengeance day had arrived for all the anti-Nazis and
Communists imprisoned in the camp. Now, the inmates of the asylum were giving
the orders to their former warders and wardresses, much as if a foreign unit of
troops invading America should happen to "liberate" San Quentin, and divest
authority in the hands of the hateful, vengeance starved inmates. As is t be
expected, the author omits any personal details concerning the identity of the
"Frenchman" or the reasons why he was arrested at interred at the camp. But
let’s continue:
"he also reminded her that she was now the prisoner. Rather than allowing
Grese to respond to the journalist’s questions, the "survivor" began to recount
a series of stories, all of them recalling "the unending cruelties perpetrated
by the SS."
COMMENT: In other words, he simply began spewing Communist propaganda agreed
upon before hand by old members of the so-called "Red Orchestra," who were in
virtual control of all the camps in Germany. This very scene conjures up
visions of Tituba accusing the elderly of crimes of "witchcraft" in Salem. And
who, it may be asked, authorized this inmate to browbeat the accused and vomit
his endless accusations against the Ss as a whole? After all, the journalist
had not come to interview HIM. Thus, it is clear that this scenario was
dictated by the British themselves, who allowed and encouraged scenes of this
type for propaganda purposes.
:When the Frenchman yelled, "Why did you do these things?" the former SS woman
flung back emphatically, "It was our duty to exterminate anti-social elements,
so that Germany’s future would be assured.!"
COMMENT: As this sentence was pulled out of context and in the midst of a
recriminating shouting match between former warder and inmate, and then
translated and most likely re-translated, I find the comment to be incredible,
or else so twisted out of context that it bears no resemblance to the actual
interchange at the time.
"This act of contemptuous stony defiance, coupled with the numerous reports of
Grese inflicting wanton beatings on helpless inmates, led the foreign [press to
pick up on the story. Already infatuated with her physical appearance, the
print media began to refer to Grese as "The Beautiful Beast."
COMMENT: Sounds like they were enamoured with her, doesn’t it?
"In late April, the Nelsen guards were transferred from the Wehrmacht Tank
Training Kaserne to Celle for their pre-trial incarceration. An investigating
officer from His Britannic Majesty’s Legal Department interrogated Grese
through an interpreter."
COMMENT: OF course, all records of these numerous interrogations are
completely unavailable to the researcher. It should also be pointed out that
we have virtually no descriptions whatsoever concerning how the accused were
treated during and in-between interrogations, for rather obvious reasons. It
is most likely that Miss Grese was not only struck, abused verbally,
physically, and intimidated, but was also most likely the victim of repeated
sexual assaults by her jailers. This mistreatment would be in accord to the
usual treatment meted out to those accused of crimes by the allies.
"Armed with a stack of eye-witness affidavits documenting Greses’s (alleged-jb)
atrocities, the investigator challenged the SS-(auxiliary-jb) about her
(alleged) involvement in Nazi war crimes."
COMMENT: Someday someone will have to inform these apostles of jurisprudence
that even one thousand accusations do not constitute proof of a crime. The sad
fact here is that these former inmates were given a blank cheque by the British
Government to make the most outlandish accusations against the accused without
the least bit of forensic proof to support them.
"Rather than deny or evade such charges, Grese asserted that she was "convinced
that all that had happened was right." The fact finding commission found ample
evidence to accuse Irma Grese as one of the SS guards participating in war
crimes and a royal warrant was issued for her indictment."
COMMENT: So because the Royal "fact-finding" commission accepted
unsubstantiated affidavits as "proof" Miss Grese was charged with non-existent
crimes. I suppose this commission was appointed to rival the "Soviet
Extraordinary Fact-Finding Commission." Next, the author has the audacity to
write:
"The British authorities, careful to insure that none of the SS guards were
charged unless there were specific allegations of criminality by credible
witnesses, proceeded in a slow, painstakingly judicious manner."
COMMENT: "Credible witnesses," did he say?
"To this end, 30 of the 83 Belsen guards were not charged (some of whom had
succumbed to typhus).."
COMMENT: I wonder WHY? It has already been shown that these liberators
contravened the articles of war by compelling these guards to engage in
activities which so endangered their health that a large number of them died
soon afterward. Note how the author avoids the issue of publishing exactly how
many guards, men and women, died as a result of this illegal treatment by their
captors. Curiously, and on a lighter note, there may be some still lurking in
this forum who may remember the debate between myself and a number of
exterminationsists, who frequently posed the question, "The SS guards look fat
and healthy. Why didn’t they share their rations with the inmates? So, did
they and do they still seriously expect that 83 people sharing their rations
with 60,000 inmates was going to do any good in the long run?
"but specific charges were laid against 9 camp trusties, (In other words,
Kapos-who were inmates and criminals themselves-jb) the so-called kapos who
sometimes outdid their masters in barbarity."
COMMENT: "SOMETIMES?" Nearly ALWAYS. Curiously, the Kapos were all found not
guilty for the most part.
As the trial began, the author notes:
"From day one of the trial Irma Ilse Ida Grese was the center of attention.
(As Ilse Koch was to prove at her "trial."—jb) ….Irma Grese stood out….She was
alert, spirited, and (her) tunic was pressed and smartly tailored. (In
contrast to the other accused, who appeared shabby. In contrast. One wonders
who authorized this in order to further draw attention to Miss
Grese?--jb)…Finally, the fact that Grese was so young, coupled with her
handsome features, made her an instant journalistic sensation….While Grese
attempted, apparently through a carefully orchestrated plan….
(COMMENT: Nizkook conspiracy theory shines through bright and clear here.
"…to maintain a facial expression emblematic of her new found celebrity status
as the "young queen of the SS, court events would eventually tear the fanatical
facade from her face."
COMMENT: It is curious that the author of this essay, who has seen dozens of
photos of Miss Grese, has not seen any evidence whatsoever of this alleged
"fanatical facade." Even the author admits, by quoting the Communist Hermann
Langbein:
"It should be remembered that Grese was immature, and, in turn, had some
unrealistic ideas and grandiose visions. (Like Joan of Arc—jb) She believed
that she would ultimately become a film actress"
"When the prosecution presented its case early in the trial, the British film
of the liberation of Belsen and the Soviet film of the liberation of Auschwitz
were shown. Court observers noticed how unaffected Grese was by these
disturbing visuals. In fact, while the films were played, the 21 year old
woman "calmly fixed her hair and blew her nose."
COMMENT: Well, what does this author expect of the woman? For her to scream,
rend her garments, weep, wail, and then claim, like Maximillian Grabner that
she was personally responsible for the daths of 3.5 million people at
Auschwitz? I mean, REALLY, people….Is this author seriously suggesting that
Miss Grese was responsible for the conditions in the concentration camps? This
19 year old telephone operator and mail room stamp licker? Isn’t it
incredible the way the human mind functions under such circumstances, whereby a
simple act like blowing one’s nose is suddenly distorted and magnified into an
admission of guilt? One rarely finds such irrational behavior in the annals of
jurisprudence, unless one reverts back to the days when beasts in the field
were once charged, tried and executed rape, homicide, and theft. If the poor
beast happened to satisfy its bodily urges in front of the "court" it was cited
with contempt!
"On another occasion, as chilling, gruesome details about the decomposing
corpses were being described for the tribunal, all the defendants except Grese
"lost their impassivity."
COMMENT: And what of it? Who and why were these people whose eyes were
perpetually fixed upon the accused as if they were beasts in a three ring
circus--jotting down every blinking of the eyes, blowing the nose, and heaven
only knows what else! Why should Miss Grese have shown the least amount of
interest in these frightful images designed to provoke a hateful response in
the minds of the public? After all, she was hardly responsible for these
conditions. SHE did not order bomber squadrons to decimate the rail lines in
Germany, or warehouses, or supplies, and so on.
"According tothe New York Times, "only Irma Grese, the 21 year old blonde who
was Kramer’s chief woman guard (She was no such thing-jb) managed to maintain
the defiant, contemptuous look that marred herundeniable good looks. Grese
glared at her accusers and when Belsen survivor Ada Bimko (Hadassah Rosensaft)
walked down the dock to identify individual guards guilty of maltreating
prisoners she stopped in front of the "fierce-eyed, coldly pretty blonde. And
identified her."
COMMENT: Now where have revisionists heard of Ada Bimko, alias Hadassah
Rosensaft before!? Sure…she is the "witness" who testified UNDER OATH that 4
million human beings had been gassed to death at Auschwitz and that she herself
had been given a guided tour through the showers of death by a Sonderkommando
and an Ss guard!!! I think much more would have been accomplished at this
trial had anyone thought to ask her to identify by NAME her alleged sources for
this nonsense instead of asking her to point an accusing finger at innocent
people like Miss Grese. The author, who up till now, has praised Miss Grese’s
physical beauty, next quotes the following quaint passage:
"The British soldiers who guarded Grese nicknamed her "Jutjaw."
COMMENT: Of course, those who are truly unbiased will not be interested in
what her tormentors had to say about her. How often has history itself
recorded the petty taunts of evil men, gloating over the helplessness of their
victims? These would have been the same men who were continuously making
improper advances toward her. In fact, it would not have mattered one whit HOW
Miss Grese responded to anything at this farce of a trial. If she withstood
the foul and baseless accusations made against her by perjurers with an
impassive face, she was immediately nicknamed "Jutjaw;" if she happened to
laugh, giggle, or blow her nose, she was accused of being apathetic, cold, and
uncaring,; if she happened to weep, she was then accused of acknowledging her
"guilt" and the "enormity of her "crimes." In short, under such hateful
conditions, there was not one thing which Miss Grese could have said or done to
deter her tormentors from killing her or portraying her in the worst possible
light, anymore than St Joan of Arc was able to sway those stuffy old
impenetrable judges who accused her of "witchcraft." The result was all a
foregone conclusion in any event. St Joan was pre-sentenced to burn and St
Irma was pre-sentenced to hang. And as for Miss Bimbo, aka Rosensaft, even
Brown was honest enough to record:
"Cranfield acknowledged that she was one of the few witnesses with any
intelligence, but nevertheless he argued that when she had been asked a
"perfectly simple question" during cross-examination, the witness "had
prevaricated and refused to answer in case she should say a word which might be
thought to be in favour of any of the accused."
Furthermore, the author admits that Grese and the other defendants were not
accorded legal and human rights as we know of them in America. Thus, any and
all statements made by her, whether under compulsion, torture, threat, or
whatever means, were declared to be perfectly legal by the magistrate,
especially if they could be twisted and distorted by the prosecution to cast an
unfavorable light upon the accused. Also, the author confirms what this author
has frequently maintained as well, namely, that one of Miss Grese’s captors,
who also testified against her, later changed his mind concerning the unfair
sentence received by Miss Grese. I am referring to Derrick Sington, a Jewish
Englishman, who, before the war, had already evinced an extreme dislike of
National socialist Germany through the publication of an anti-Goebbels book.
Brown writes:
"In their chapter devoted to Grese, Giles Playfair and Derrick Sington argue
that Grese did not deserve her ultimate fate …They argued that she was actually
immature, which was carefully hidden behind the stoic, obstinate facade she
wore and that had fooled many of the courtroom observers."
COMMENT: IN other words, she still had the heart and mind of a little girl.
In fact, as Brown points out,
"A co-defendant of Grese’s reported that Grese expressed "great delight" when
Luneberg children yelled out "Irma Grese!" Irma Grese!" as their prison truck
passed on its daily trek to and from the courthouse."
COMMENT: Fear not, Irma, for they shall once again echo your praises as a
great German heroine in the decades to come.
As the case against Miss Grese neared its conclusion, her sister was called to
the stand to testify on behalf of her victimized sister. Brown records:
"As Helene spoke, Irma Grese openly cried. As the testimony continued, the
weeping became outright sobbing….Irma Grese was not quite as hard as she had
originally seemed, (Or was DELIBERATELY depicted-jb); indeed, an emotionally
vulnerable, even frail personality had been revealed to the world."
COMMENT: In fact, Irma still had the heart and mind of a little girl. This
was further accented by the fact that observers would see her scribbling
something down on her notepad whenever malicious accusations were made against
her by perjuring witnesses. While the observers ASSUMED that Miss Grese was
writing down information to prepare for her rebuttal or defense, in reality all
she was writing were little words of encouragement to herself, such as "Kopf
hoch!," (Keep your head high) and so on.
Now, amazingly, the author on page 76 finally summoned up enough courage to
write the following, which is most pertinent to the case:
"As the trial moved toward its conclusion, Major Cranfield did yeoman’s service
in his effort to cleat his defendants as best he could. Since no corpus
delecti existed and the case against the guards hinged largely on eye-witness
testimony, he tried to discredit and impugn key witnesses. This was
particularly important in Grese’s case. Gertrude Diament, a Jewish woman from
Czechoslovakia, had sworn that she had seen Grese, both at Auschwitz and
Belsen, beat women with sticks and when they fell to the ground, that she saw
the Aufseherin kick them as hard as she could with her heavy boots." Diament
went to say that Grese "frequently caused blood to flow and in the deponent’s
opinion many of the people she injured were likely to die from such injuries."
COMMENT: Of course, Diament was lying or mistaken, and her opinion, simply
another form of "Because I say so" is hardly qualified evidence. The author
correctly notes:
Since the witness Diament had no direct evidence of deaths resulting from the
beatings, Major Canfield argued that this testimony was exaggerated at best and
undoubtedly "led" by her interrogator. As noted previously, Ilona Stein, a
Jewish woman from Gyongyos, Hungary, was one of the most crucial witnesses for
the prosecution. At 21 and only slightly younger than Grese herself, Stein was
targeted by Cranfield for cross-examination. Although he had sensed he could
discredit Stein’s recollection, Cranfield was unable to "shoot down" Stein’s
testimony….Stein held on to her original statement that she had seen Grese
shoot prisoners at point blank range."
COMMENT: This author has examined Stein’s testimony and it is false
throughout, as I have proven in previous essays. Even Brown admits that Stein
could not verify that those whom she claimed as dead, were, in fact, were truly
and really deceased. In fact, she could not even provide a name for the
victims, nor dates, nor any other information which would have lent credence to
her testimony, which was then what it remains today—perjury. Brown has the
gall to remark upon this later that:
"..no one in the courtroom doubted that the majority of these (faceless and
Nameless-jb) victims did succumb to their wounds; in effect, the flaws
Cranfield exposed in the survivor’s testimony were inconsequential when the
weight and enormity of the crimes (ER-that should read "ACCUSATIONS—jb) were
considered."
COMMENT: As I have just written, there was not one iota of factual independent
evidence offered during the course of this trial to support the malicious
claims made against Miss Grese’s by her accusers. Nonetheless, she was
sentenced to die, and the brave young woman received her sentence with as much
dignity and equanimity as Joan of Arc received hers, much to the annoyance of
their tormentors. In seeking to address the causes for Miss Grese’s
conviction, Brown remarks rather naively:
"Irma Grese’s own courtroom demeanor was one of the best weapons that the
prosecution had….Grese did not help her case at all, as she returned to an
obstinate denial of all the charges against her."
COMMENT: So the "Truth is No Defense" pre-dates Mr. Zundel’s current problems
by five decades!!! So, according to Brown, Miss Grese was convicted by her
appearance, and blowing her nose in court! And to top it all off, she had the
impudence to deny the false accusations made against her! One item I read from
the quill of Mr. Brown amused me no end. In attempting to come to grips with
the fact that throughout his entire book, he was unable to present any
independent documentation or evidence in support of the accusations made
against Miss Grese, Brown asks rhetorically:
"How many lives could this young woman have actually been responsible for
taking?"
And here is his answer to his own question:
"The answer to the …question will never be known. As previously noted, she may
very well have been responsible for "the most bestial sadism and killings
committed by any woman in this century." Irma Grese clearly was accountable
for thousands of deaths, but no one was keeping score."
COMMENT: In fact, no one was keeping score to the extent where not even ONE
human victim alleged to have been killed by this young woman was EVER produced
by name in any court at any time, either during or since the trial! The
author’s comments above really have to count as being among the most pathetic
responses ever coined relative to these bogus trials, for here is a young
woman he has no problem accusing of thousands of murders and sadistic tortures,
yet acknowledges that he can not even cite ONE alleged victim! In describing
Miss Grese’s final days on this earth, the author writes:
"Irma Grese did begin to come to grips with the death sentence once she was
taken back to the holding cells where her composure was definitely shaken.
When Major Cranfield went to the cells to see his convicted client after
sentencing, he found her crying like a child. When a different British officer
visited Grese in her Luneberg cell later, the formerly stoic woman was again
weeping. In addition, the neat, well-kept appearance was gone and her hair was
in disarray."
COMMENT: Of course, the media-lap dogs would have been delighted had Miss
Grese broken down at the time of sentencing, for this would have warmed the
cockles in the hearts of hardened German haters from Tel Aviv to Washington,
D.C., but the courageous young German heroine deprived these wretches of the
squalid spectacle they so craved. The author mentions that Miss Grese’s hair
was in disarray…Does he expect her to have been jumping with joy over the
unjust and unholy sentence she received? Does he expect that she would have
wished to have a new coiffure for the benefit of her executioner?
For the execution, the British called in their premier hangman, Albert
Pierrepoint. Miss Grese was brought out of her cell for the benefit of the
hangman, who wished to measure and weigh his victim. Pierrepoint writes that :
"She walked out of her cell and came towards us laughing. She seemed as bonny
a girl as one could ever wish to meet."
In regard to the other condemned prisoners, both male and female, Pierrepoint
was so shocked by their horrid appearance that he expressed pity for them. For
instance, 52 year old Juana Bormann was so thin and frail, that she groaned
when the hangman placed her upon the scale…According to Pierrepoint himself,
this woman was so fragile appearing that she resembled a little child. Dr
Klein likewise presented a pathetic figure, no doubt after months of abuse,
beatings, and torture at the hands of his guards. Only the former Commandant,
Josef Kramer, still presented an imposing figure to the hangman, but even he
had written to his beloved wife from prison denouncing his testimony and
"confession" claiming that the Allies were determined to kill him simply
because he had been in the SS-a man in the wrong place at the wrong time.
The night before their executions, Pierrepoint noted how the women, and Grese
in particular, faced their death with steadfast courage. Unhinged by this
courageous display of Aryan womanhood, Brown notes annoyingly:
"Bonding in racial unity with her fellow Aufseherinnen, Grese now regained her
transitory mask and the three women sat up during most last night alive and
sang almost nonstop the standard Nazi hymns." (In fact, neither the author nor
Pierrepoint knows WHAT the women were singing, as no mention is ever made of
any particular titles)
Perhaps as puzzled and perplexed as Nero once was by the singing of the
condemned and courageous Christians he had commanded to be burnt to alight his
gardens, Brown remarks:
"This particular scene was extraordinary: Here, literally hours before their
ignominious deaths (Not ignominious to THEM-jb), these 3 women sang spirited
Nazi anthems together. Incredibly, with execution imminent, a 52 year old
woman sang like an adolescent as she accompanied 2 young women whose combined
age would be less than her’s. All three laughed and sang the night away in a
rousing SS songfest."
COMMENT: Why this should puzzle the author is indeed a puzzle to me, for I
have not read of either this man or any other exterminationist questioning the
tale of Filip Mueller where he claims that Jews condemned to the "gas chambers"
went to their deaths singing the Israeli National Anthem or the Anthem of the
Internationale. Be that as it may, the attempt by allied propagandists to
depict the deaths of these nobly condemned resulted in utter fiasco, as Brown
notes:
"The actual execution of Irma Grese has been erroneously depicted in a variety
of sources. Many accounts portray her as having to be dragged by the British
guards to the gallows. "
In fact, Brown does right in quoting Pierrepoint’s description of the execution
of this heroic woman:
Page 87:
"When Albert Pierrepoint came to Grese’s cell, the door was opened and she
stepped out. After being pinioned in the corridor by the executioner, Grese
was escorted by Pierrepoint, a huge man dressed in a British uniform who was
barely older than Grese, to the scaffold. Grese then ounted the 7 steps
leading to the gallows as quickly as she could. Pierrepoint had placed a chalk
mark on the trap door and she hurriedly stood on the designated spot. Grese
then kissed a crucifix extended to her by a regimental chaplain and closed her
eyes. Pierrepoint was trembling as he muttered, "forgive me" and placed the
white hood over her head. Grese faintly said "Schnell" and the executioner
sprang the trap at 10:03 a.m. Albert Pierrepoint anf a court-appointed
physician went below the gallows and the physician pronounced Grese dead.
After 20 minutes the corpse was cut down and placed into one of the 12 coffins
prepared for the executed SS guards, and, following this, a speedy burial took
place in the adjacent courtyard of the prison."
In 1952, the martyrs corpses were exhumed and transferred to a neighboring
cemetery, where, to this day, and to Brown’s great consternation, the graves
are regularly visited by White Europeans, mainly youngsters from new
generations, bringing flowers and other items eulogizing the memory of the
dead.
END
DeppityBob
>From: deb...@aol.com (Debunks)
>
>Judgment and Execution
>
>This will conclude our examination of the book "The Beautiful Beast," by
>Michael Patrick Brown, who writes in Chapter VI:
Oh, good. This was getting tiresome.
>
>"…British legal teams began to arrive at Bergen and the initial investigations
>into Nazi war crimes at the camp began. In very short order, investigators
>began to hear numerous startling accusations against the strikingly beautiful
>SS-guard named Irma Grese."
>
>COMMENT: Of course, as Brown himself had proven in prior chapters, Miss
>Grese
>was not SS, but merely an SS auxiliary helper, as women were prohibited
>from SS
>membership. Furthermore, it would certainly have been much more interesting
>had the author supplied us with the names of these "British" investigators
>and
>interrogators, as well as a description of the methods employed by them
>to
>collate "evidence" against the accused.
Woulda been even better if Booger had a bigger springboard to take THAT dive
from.
However, the author does manage
>to
>share at least one interesting tidbit with us:
>
>"Following their arrest, the SS-Aufseherinnen were imprisoned in the
>neighboring Wehrmacht Tank Training School, (By this the author means those
>women who had not died from typhus, due to British maltreatment and war
>crimes
>violations concerning correct treatment of POW’s—jb)
Ya know, Booger, if the author had meant it, he woulda said it. Of course, that
would make it harder to martyr your St. Irma, wouldn't it? So you had to
squeeze in your editorial--a bit of a no-no in the historiographic field, but
since when are you a historian?
approximately 3 kilometers
>up the road from Bergen-Belsen. Prior even to the formal indictment being
>read
>against the accused SS-guards, an English journalist arrived to write a
>story
>about the "beautiful Nazi woman." The correspondent, accompanied by a French
>survivor who was…filled with rage, was granted permission to interview Grese
>and the ensuing interview quickly evolved into a shouting match, the young
>"survivor" ordered Miss Grese to stand up straight and not to lean against
>the
>wall."
>
>COMMENT: In fact, vengeance day had arrived for all the anti-Nazis and
>Communists imprisoned in the camp. Now, the inmates of the asylum were
>giving
>the orders to their former warders and wardresses, much as if a foreign
>unit of
>troops invading America should happen to "liberate" San Quentin, and divest
>authority in the hands of the hateful, vengeance starved inmates.
Think you could get a little MORE histrionic there, Booger? You have a case of
ONE weakened survivor "ordering" Grese up against the wall in her rage. And
there's not even a mention of Grese complying or being forced to comply. Then
again, speaking brusquely to a German is a crime according to Booger, isn't it?
As is
>t be
>expected, the author omits any personal details concerning the identity
>of the
>"Frenchman" or the reasons why he was arrested at interred at the camp.
Hmmmm....because that's the sort of thing Nazis did, ya think?
> But
>let’s continue:
>
>"he also reminded her that she was now the prisoner. Rather than allowing
>Grese to respond to the journalist’s questions, the "survivor" began to
>recount
>a series of stories, all of them recalling "the unending cruelties perpetrated
>by the SS."
>
>COMMENT: In other words, he simply began spewing Communist propaganda agreed
>upon before hand by old members of the so-called "Red Orchestra," who were
>in
>virtual control of all the camps in Germany. This very scene conjures up
>visions of Tituba accusing the elderly of crimes of "witchcraft" in Salem.
> And
>who, it may be asked, authorized this inmate to browbeat the accused and
>vomit
>his endless accusations against the Ss as a whole? After all, the journalist
>had not come to interview HIM. Thus, it is clear that this scenario was
>dictated by the British themselves, who allowed and encouraged scenes of
>this
>type for propaganda purposes.
Holy shit, Booger! Next thing you know, the skies are gonna open and rain
plagues of locusts and frogs and shit! Christ Amighty, you sure can turn one
loud, righteously insistent surivor into a Wagnerian villain!
>
>:When the Frenchman yelled, "Why did you do these things?" the former SS
>woman
>flung back emphatically, "It was our duty to exterminate anti-social elements,
>so that Germany’s future would be assured.!"
>
>COMMENT: As this sentence was pulled out of context and in the midst of
>a
>recriminating shouting match between former warder and inmate, and then
>translated and most likely re-translated, I find the comment to be incredible,
>or else so twisted out of context that it bears no resemblance to the actual
>interchange at the time.
Ah HAH. So the account is fine when the survivor looks bad--but when Grese
turns out to be a bitch, it's mistaken? Tell you what, howzabout you provide
your evidence that the statement was taken or twisted out of context and I'll
believe you. I am not, however, going to put off ordering the pizza waiting.
>
>"This act of contemptuous stony defiance, coupled with the numerous reports
>of
>Grese inflicting wanton beatings on helpless inmates, led the foreign [press
>to
>pick up on the story. Already infatuated with her physical appearance,
>the
>print media began to refer to Grese as "The Beautiful Beast."
>
>COMMENT: Sounds like they were enamoured with her, doesn’t it?
Well, SOMEONE sure is.
>
>"In late April, the Nelsen guards were transferred from the Wehrmacht Tank
>Training Kaserne to Celle for their pre-trial incarceration. An investigating
>officer from His Britannic Majesty’s Legal Department interrogated Grese
>through an interpreter."
>
>COMMENT: OF course, all records of these numerous interrogations are
>completely unavailable to the researcher.
"The researcher" being Booger. In other words, he doesn't have any evidence or
basis on which to make any counterclaims, but that's not about to stop him,
right?
It should also be pointed out
>that
>we have virtually no descriptions whatsoever concerning how the accused
>were
>treated during and in-between interrogations, for rather obvious reasons.
Here it comes....
> It
>is most likely that Miss Grese was not only struck, abused verbally,
>physically, and intimidated, but was also most likely the victim of repeated
>sexual assaults by her jailers. This mistreatment would be in accord to
>the
>usual treatment meted out to those accused of crimes by the allies.
WHOOOOOOOAAAAAAA BOOGER!!!! Let's just slow this one down a bit!!! "...meted
out to those accused of crimes by allies"? Where do you get THIS? Oh,
yeah--Booger SAYS SO. Because there is certainly nothing in the text that backs
this up, not a thing. But in order for Grese to get martyred, he must, by
needs, turn her into the victim of unparallelled--if unrecorded and
unsubstantiated--savagery.
What a complete fool. The rest of this is just the same, and you know, it's not
worth wasting my time on. I suggest the same for anyone else.
Dep
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Always tell the truth. It's the easiest thing to remember."
--David Mamet
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Debunks
>From: deppi...@aol.com....plex (DeppityBob)
>Date: 12/13/98 9:27 PM EST
>Message-id: <19981213212732...@ng05.aol.com>
SNIP the weak and pallid response from someone who has no conception of
reality, honesty or decency, to judge by the contents of it's posts..
If ignorance was a crime, Dupe would be serving 2 consecutive life sentences.
DeppityBob
>Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 2:46 AM
>Message-id: <19981213214650...@ng-fb1.aol.com>
Poor Booger. Did I step on widdle Irma's toes? Is that what it takes to get
over being Shunned by Booger? Wheeeeeeeeheeheehee!!!
Debunks
>From: deppi...@aol.com....plex (DeppityBob)
>Message-id: <19981213230902...@ng05.aol.com>
>
>>Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
>>From: deb...@aol.com (Debunks)
>>Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 2:46 AM
>>Message-id: <19981213214650...@ng-fb1.aol.com>
>>
>>>Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
>>>From: deppi...@aol.com....plex (DeppityBob)
>>>Date: 12/13/98 9:27 PM EST
>>>Message-id: <19981213212732...@ng05.aol.com>
>>
>>SNIP the weak and pallid response from someone who has no conception of
>>reality, honesty or decency, to judge by the contents of it's posts..
>>
>>If ignorance was a crime, Dupe would be serving 2 consecutive life
>sentences.
>>
>
>Poor Booger. Did I step on widdle Irma's toes? Is that what it takes to get
>over being Shunned by Booger? Wheeeeeeeeheeheehee!!!
>
>Dep
>
Act like a man, if you are capable. Did you actually think that I was
responding to your gibberish, other than making you look more the fool than you
make yourself?
A man's own good breeding is the best security against other people's ill
manners.
DeppityBob
>>>From: deb...@aol.com (Debunks)
>>>Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 2:46 AM
>>>Message-id: <19981213214650...@ng-fb1.aol.com>
>>>
>>>>Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
>>>>From: deppi...@aol.com....plex (DeppityBob)
>>>>Date: 12/13/98 9:27 PM EST
>>>>Message-id: <19981213212732...@ng05.aol.com>
>>>
>>>SNIP the weak and pallid response from someone who has no conception of
>>>reality, honesty or decency, to judge by the contents of it's posts..
>>>
>>>If ignorance was a crime, Dupe would be serving 2 consecutive life
>>sentences.
>>>
>>
>>Poor Booger. Did I step on widdle Irma's toes? Is that what it takes to
>get
>>over being Shunned by Booger? Wheeeeeeeeheeheehee!!!
>>
>>Dep
>>
>
>Act like a man, if you are capable. Did you actually think that I was
>responding to your gibberish, other than making you look more the fool than
>you
>make yourself?
Well, you're sure doing it now, ain'tcha? You're a FUN fish to play, Booger.
You dance at the end of the line just like you're supposed to, and when we feel
like reeling you in, you come in like a good fishie.
Richard Phillips
DeppityBob wrote:
> >
> >>>From: deb...@aol.com (Debunks)
> >>>Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 2:46 AM
> >>>Message-id: <19981213214650...@ng-fb1.aol.com>
> >>>
> >>>>Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
> >>>>From: deppi...@aol.com....plex (DeppityBob)
> >>>>Date: 12/13/98 9:27 PM EST
> >>>>Message-id: <19981213212732...@ng05.aol.com>
> >>>
> >>>SNIP the weak and pallid response from someone who has no conception of
> >>>reality, honesty or decency, to judge by the contents of it's posts..
> >>>
> >>>If ignorance was a crime, Dupe would be serving 2 consecutive life
> >>sentences.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Poor Booger. Did I step on widdle Irma's toes? Is that what it takes to
> >get
> >>over being Shunned by Booger? Wheeeeeeeeheeheehee!!!
> >>
> >>Dep
> >>
> >
> >Act like a man, if you are capable. Did you actually think that I was
> >responding to your gibberish, other than making you look more the fool than
> >you
> >make yourself?
>
> Well, you're sure doing it now, ain'tcha? You're a FUN fish to play, Booger.
> You dance at the end of the line just like you're supposed to, and when we feel
> like reeling you in, you come in like a good fishie.
>
> Dep
=================================================
Philllips
On the subject of Irma Griese, I'm not very passionate, one way or another, but I
would like to know this: Can it be definitely established whether any acts she is
alleged to have committed would be punishable by death in America.
============================================
Yale F. Edeiken
> >Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
> >From: deppi...@aol.com....plex (DeppityBob)
> >Date: 12/13/98 9:27 PM EST
> >Message-id: <19981213212732...@ng05.aol.com>
> SNIP the weak and pallid response from someone who has no conception of
> reality, honesty or decency, to judge by the contents of it's posts..
> If ignorance was a crime, Dupe would be serving 2 consecutive life sentences.
Here is Jew-hating Joe's typical response to anyone who exposes his lies for what
they are. Here's opne example that the cowardly liar will not explain:
In "The Black Book" we have the latest in a long string of whoppers from
Jew-hating Joe, master of the outrageous whopper. In his desperate attempt to justify the
murder of women and children and smear the innocent victims of his nazi heroes he states
that the killing of hostages in reprisal is legal under international law. The comment can be
found in his diatribe entitled "The Black Book" which can best be described as a series of
lies, distortions, and unproven charges designed to deny the crimes of his nazi heroes.
It should come as no surprise that Jew-hating Joe is lying again.
According to "The Scourge of the Swastika" by Lord Russell of Liverpool (there are various
editions; I am quoting from the 1976 Corgi paperback edition) Article 50 of the Hague
Convention flatly contradicts Jew-hating Joe's statement:
"Although in certain circumstances the taking of hostages was, before the Geneva
Convention of 1949, permitted under International Law, their subsequent execution except
for capital offenses of which they had been properly convicted, was clearly forbidden by
Article 50 of the Hague Convention of 1907, which reads: "No collective penalty, pecuniary
or other, can be decreed against populations for individual acts for which they cannot be
held jointly responsible."" --page 76
In further support of this opinion Lord Russell cites Grotius, the father of the laws of war:
"Furthermore, this would appear to have been established as long ago as the seventeenth
century by no less an authority than Grotius in his "De Jure Belli ac Pacis" and Lord Wright
in his article [for the 1948 edition of the "British Year Book of International Law"] quoted this
passage:"
""Hostages should not be put to death unless they themselves have done wrong . . . in
former times it was commonly believed that each person had over his own life the same right
which he had over other things that came under his ownership, and that this right by tacit or
express consent passed from individuals to the State. It is not then to be wondered at if we
read that hostages who were personally guiltless were put to death for a wrong done by their
State. But now a truer knowledge has taught us that lordship over life is reserved for God, it
follows that no one by his individual consent can give to another a right over life, either his
own life or that of a fellow citizen.""
"The practice of shooting hostages and reprisal prisoners was habitually carried out by the
German authorities in every country under military occupation."
--page 76
These two passages are important as much to expose the basic dishonesty of Jew-hating
Joe as an explanation of international law. These passages definitively establish that
Jew-hating Joe's claim was fraudulent but that he knew it to be fraudulent.
In another thread Jew-hating Joe cited this book as authoritative (claiming, again falsely, that
Lord Russell wrote that the stench in the camps was due to the vandalism of the inmates).
When his claim was challenged Jew-hating Joe sneered that Phil Matthews should "read a
book sometime."
Apparently Jew-hating Joe should heed his own advice before he wholesales his outright
whoppers.
"hello? antone out there 12-14 e-mail me. i am thirteen and . .
.well if you e-mail me at jbel...@sprynet.com you can find out more about me i
am a female."
--YFE
The Holocaust History Project is at http://www.holocaust-history.org/
The Nizkor Project is at http://www.nizkor.org/
The Einsatzgruppen page is at http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/
The Cybrary of the Holocaust is at http://www.remember.org/
Debunks
>From: deppi...@aol.com....plex (DeppityBob)
>Message-id: <19981214125804...@ng112.aol.com>
>
>>
>>>>From: deb...@aol.com (Debunks)
>>>>Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 2:46 AM
>>>>Message-id: <19981213214650...@ng-fb1.aol.com>
>>>>
>>>>>From: deppi...@aol.com....plex (DeppityBob)
>>>>>Date: 12/13/98 9:27 PM EST
>>>>>Message-id: <19981213212732...@ng05.aol.com>
>>>>
>>>>SNIP the weak and pallid response from someone who has no conception of
>>>>reality, honesty or decency, to judge by the contents of it's posts..
>>>>
>>>>If ignorance was a crime, Dupe would be serving 2 consecutive life
>>>sentences.
>>>>
>>>
>>get
>>>over being Shunned by Booger? Wheeeeeeeeheeheehee!!!
>>>
>>>Dep
>>>
>>
>>Act like a man, if you are capable. Did you actually think that I was
>>responding to your gibberish, other than making you look more the fool than
>>you
>>make yourself?
>
>Well, you're sure doing it now, ain'tcha? You're a FUN fish to play, Booger.
>You dance at the end of the line just like you're supposed to, and when we
>feel
>like reeling you in, you come in like a good fishie.
>
>Dep
>
>
Something smells like a rotten mackerel and it isn't me....
Gord McFee
-0500, Richard Phillips <rgp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Philllips
>
> On the subject of Irma Griese, I'm not very passionate, one way or another, but I
> would like to know this: Can it be definitely established whether any acts she is
> alleged to have committed would be punishable by death in America.
I am hurt, Richard. I already answered this question some time ago, and
you seem to have ignored it. Irma Grese was found guilty of murder,
which the last I heard was punishable by death in America.
--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time
Visit the Holocaust History Project
http://www.holocaust-history.org
Visit the Nizkor site
http://www.nizkor.org
Debunks
STOP. DEBATE. I'm ready when you are.
Debunks
>Date: 12/14/98 10:27 PM EST
>Message-id: <367fcc33...@news3.ibm.net>
>
>In <367567C2...@earthlink.net>, on Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:32:18
>-0500, Richard Phillips <rgp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Philllips
>>
>> On the subject of Irma Griese, I'm not very passionate, one way or another,
>but I
>> would like to know this: Can it be definitely established whether any acts
>she is
>> alleged to have committed would be punishable by death in America.
>
>I am hurt, Richard. I already answered this question some time ago, and
>you seem to have ignored it. Irma Grese was found guilty of murder,
>which the last I heard was punishable by death in America.
>
>--
>Gord McFee
Too bad they never provided any evidence to go along with that guilty verdict.
Mark Van Alstine
<rgp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
[snip]
> On the subject of Irma Griese, I'm not very passionate, one way or another,
> but I would like to know this: Can it be definitely established whether any
> acts she is alleged to have committed would be punishable by death in America.
Yes, Dickie da Liar, it can. Murder in the first degree is punishable by
death in many states in the U.S. Didn't we already go through this once?
Mark
--
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line seperating good and
evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between
political parties--but right through every human heart--and all
human hearts." -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
Mark Van Alstine
(Debunks) wrote:
> >Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
> >From: gmc...@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
> >Date: 12/14/98 10:27 PM EST
> >Message-id: <367fcc33...@news3.ibm.net>
> >
> >In <367567C2...@earthlink.net>, on Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:32:18
> >-0500, Richard Phillips <rgp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Philllips
> >>
> >> On the subject of Irma Griese, I'm not very passionate, one way or another,
> >but I
> >> would like to know this: Can it be definitely established whether any acts
> >she is
> >> alleged to have committed would be punishable by death in America.
> >
> >I am hurt, Richard. I already answered this question some time ago, and
> >you seem to have ignored it. Irma Grese was found guilty of murder,
> >which the last I heard was punishable by death in America.
> >
> >--
> >Gord McFee
>
> Too bad they never provided any evidence to go along with that guilty verdict.
Ah, but plenty of evidence of Grese's guilt was provided! It's just that
Boger the anti-Semitic lying scumbag Nazi apologist chooses to handwave it
away because Grese is his Nazi sex-goddess and he can't emotionally deal
with the fact that she was a sadistic murdering dyke bitch.
For those interested in proof of Boger's irrelevant Nazi apologia,
Holocaust denial, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright
lies, please peruse DejaNews and visit the Nizkor Project at:
http://www.dejanews.com/
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/1997/blackmore.0197
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/1997/fafner13.0197
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-1
Debunks
>Date: 12/15/98 0:02 AM EST
>Message-id: <mvanalst-141...@c678496-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com>
>
>> but I would like to know this: Can it be definitely established whether any
>
>> acts she is alleged to have committed would be punishable by death in
>America.
>
>death in many states in the U.S. Didn't we already go through this once?
>
>Mark
>
He is waiting for you to prove the claims.
Debunks
>From: mvan...@no-spam.netmail.home.com (Mark Van Alstine )
>Message-id: <mvanalst-141...@c678496-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com>
>
>> >Date: 12/14/98 10:27 PM EST
>> >Message-id: <367fcc33...@news3.ibm.net>
>> >
>> >In <367567C2...@earthlink.net>, on Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:32:18
>> >-0500, Richard Phillips <rgp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Philllips
>> >>
>another,
>> >but I
>> >> would like to know this: Can it be definitely established whether any
>acts
>> >she is
>> >> alleged to have committed would be punishable by death in America.
>> >
>> >you seem to have ignored it. Irma Grese was found guilty of murder,
>> >which the last I heard was punishable by death in America.
>> >
>> >--
>> >Gord McFee
>>
>> Too bad they never provided any evidence to go along with that guilty
>verdict.
>
>Ah, but plenty of evidence of Grese's guilt was provided! It's just that
>Boger the anti-Semitic lying scumbag Nazi apologist chooses to handwave it
>away because Grese is his Nazi sex-goddess and he can't emotionally deal
>with the fact that she was a sadistic murdering dyke bitch.
>
In other words, for those who know Nizkooks as well as I do, she was completely
innocent of all charges against her, save striking bullying inmates on rare
occasions.
Richard Phillips
Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> In article <367567C2...@earthlink.net>, Richard Phillips
> <rgp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > On the subject of Irma Griese, I'm not very passionate, one way or another,
> > but I would like to know this: Can it be definitely established whether any
> > acts she is alleged to have committed would be punishable by death in America.
>
> Yes, Dickie da Liar, it can. Murder in the first degree is punishable by
> death in many states in the U.S. Didn't we already go through this once?
=============================================
Phillips
Murder in the FIRST degree. Now that sounds just a bit odd to me, given the
circumstances there. It is saying that Griese PLANNED IN ADVANCE to murder a
particular inmate. Such a charge would NOT be applicable to her having killed
someone in a momentary fit of exasperation, much less to her having killed someone
in self-defence. So let me ask you a few embarassing questions:
(1) Was a specific charge of murder IN THE FIRST DEGREE made at her trial?
(2) Were there witnesses who saw the act and who testifired that it was done in a
deliberate and cold-blooded manner; that is, not in a moment of rage or fear?
(3) What reasons wree advanced why she should have DELIBERATELY PLOTTED IN ADVANCE
the murder of some particular inmate.
I am asssuming of course that the trials were conducted in some measure of
conformity with Anglo-Saxon legal tradition - y es?
===================================
Mike Curtis
Now, finally is the closing speech by the Prosecution. It begins on
page 585 but we'll pick up Colonel Backhouse on page 587:
[ . . . ]
All that the Court are considering is whether if Allied people were
taken and interned in Belsen and were ill-treated and the accused were
the persons who did that, that would be a war crime. It is quite
obvious from the Geneva Convention, from the Hague Convention, from
the rulings which I have quoted, that if persons are ill-treated, then
the position is precisely the same as if it were a prisoner of war who
had been ill-treated, and quite obviously the ill-treatment of a
prisoner of war is a war crime, because that is the commonest crime
tried by Military Courts.
No one surely can suggest that if a member of the armed forces is put
in charge of prisoners and ill-treats them that is not a war crime,
and if, because of the man-power situation, a civilian is put in
charge of them instead and ill-treats them it is not a war crime. The
thing is manifestly too absurd. The whole difficulty arises from the
fact that when the Hague Convention was written a military body like
the S.S. and so on was not thought of, and it was taken for granted
that only a member of the armed forces would be in a position to
ill-treat the inhabitants of occupied countries. The point becomes
completely academic when one considers the evidence. Kramer said, "We
were members of the Wehrmacht; as soon as war broke out we became
members of the Wehrmacht, and I am a member of the Armed Forces of
Germany." The S.S. in the dock are on their own evidence members of
the Armed Forces of Germany. The women Aufseherinnen followed the
Armed Forces around.
The next point that Colonel Smith makes is that the crime must be
connected with war, which I quite agree, and he argues that as this
ill-treatment of Jews was going on before and continued afterwards, or
would have continued afterwards, therefore it was not connected with
the war. I would suggest that this is nonsense, because what is being
complained of here is ill-treatment of Allied nationals during the
time of war. That was not happening before the war and would not have
gone on after the war. Allied nationals are entitled to protection by
their Government. The Court are not concerned with what Germans do to
Germans during the war, but are concerned with the protection of
Allied subjects from what Germans do to Allied subjects during the
war. The mere fact that those people came into the hands of the
Germans by the operations of war and were interned by them as the
result of operations of war, and that their countries were occupied by
the Germans as the result of operations of war, is quite sufficient to
turn that into a war crime, and is precisely the type of war crime
that is aimed at by the Convention; otherwise the Convention and
Regulations themselves would become nonsense. Wheii a prisoner of war
is ill-treated by one of his guards, maybe due to sadism, and if that
person is an Allied subject who has come into his hands by operations
of war, then that is a war crime of precisely the type that the
Convention was made for.
There were two reasons for interning these people. One was the
deliberate destruction of the Jewish race with the object of
strengthening the home front and preventing what happened in the last
war. The destruction of Poland was another; again, an avowed war aim.
The gathering into Germany of persons from every country that Germany
overran was done with the deliberate intention of weakening that
country in its effort to resist Germany. What greater war aim than
that These people were used to free German man-power in the factories,
on the land, for the benefit of the war. That is apart from those
directly employed on war weapons and so on. These people were brought
into the Reich in furtherance of the German war aim, and if they chose
to ill-treat them, in so far as they were Allied subjects, then that
is a plain and obvious war crime which is entitled to punishment.
Colonel Smith takes the point that the State and not the individual is
responsible in International Law. That, I think, is a bad point,
because he admitted that a war crime is one of three exceptions, the
other two he spoke of being piracy and rum- running. Under the
Versailles Treaty, at the end of the last war, which is still in
force, it was laid down: "The German Government recognizes the right
of the Allied and Associated Powers to bring before military tribunals
persons accused of having committed acts in violation of the laws and
customs of war." Even tried by German law it was said that if an
individual broke one of the laws and customs of war he could properly
be tried, and in fact he was in some cases convicted by the Germans
for breaches of these agreements.
Colonel Smith's main point was whether these people were Allied
nationals. His argument, as I understood it, applied only to Czechs
and Poles. It has quite obviously no application to any other
nationality where the Germans made no pretence of annexing the
country. His point was that Poland had been annexed and that therefore
they were German nationals as far as we were concerned. That again,
even if his facts were right, would be an absurdity. Surely nobody in
Germany thought that the war was over in 1944, and the gassing of the
Hungarian transports started about the same time as "D" Day. If one is
going to suggest that, then one can merely say, "All right, we have
annexed the country," and then the Convention does not apply at all.
But the Germans never did say that. The only part of Poland which the
Germans ever declared annexed was that part which they said was
German, namely, the little piece of Silesia which was taken from them
in the last war by the Poles, and that is the only part that they did
intend to incorporate into the Reich. The rest of Poland was merely
occupied terntory and nothing more. I say that before you can annex a
country you have got to finish the war, and that whilst the war is
still going on the citizens of that country are entitled to the
protection given under the Convention.
Even if the accused did not know that these persons were Allied
nationals I would still not agree with Colonel Smith 's argument,
because before you start ill-treating somebody or assaulting them you
must find out, you must not presume things. He gave three instances of
what he was suggesting . But an assault on a policeman or on a girl
under a certain age has no defence in that you did not know that he
was a policeman or that she was under a certain age: it is a matter
for you to find out. If you steal public property it is no good coming
and saying you did not know it was public property, because you would
still be convicted under Section 18 (4) of the Army Act. If you want
to assault somebody you must find out what you are doing be fore you
do it: it is no good saying "I did not know."
Major Cranfield asked the Court to say that if one strikes out the
named persons from the charge, then the charge would be bad for
vagueness. I must entirely disagree. In the case just recently tried
in Hamburg, the case of the submarine sinking the S.S. Peleus, one did
not know the names of the victims and so could not put their names on
the charge-sheet. That is common to the majority of this class of
case. In the case of the Llandovery Castle, which the Germans tried
themselves, the names were not put in because certain boats were sunk
by cannon fire by a submarine and nobody knew who was in the boats. No
names of victims could be given, and the charge was the usual charge
of Allied nationals.
[continued next post]
Mike Curtis
Mike Curtis
Colonel Backhouse continues:
I come now to the legal point of superior orders. A defence of
superior orders is one for the Defence to set up and prove; it is not
for the Prosecution to disprove. Providing I prove to your
satisfaction that certain people were ill-treated then if my friends
wish to rely upon the fact that it was done on the orders of a
superior and that that exempts them from responsibility, that is for
the Defence to set up and prove. That is rather an important thing in
this case, because, with the exception of the gas chamber, every
accused has said it was forbidden to ill-treat the people, although
various defending officers have set up the plea of superior orders. If
the defending officers p ut up a point it must be supported by their
accused, and the accused ab solutely refuse to take that point. The
accused have said that ill-treatment of prisoners and
of prisoners was forbidden, and they say, "We did it against orders.'
So far as the gas chamber is concerned, the accused themselves say
they were acting on superior orders, but in order to succeed in that
defence the accused must satisfy you that they did not know that what
they were doing was wrong, and there is not one of them who has dared
to go into the witness-box and say that. To succeed in the defence of
superior orders they must, even in German law, not realize that what
they are doing is wrong, or in fact by any other law.
It has been argued by Colonel Smith that a note in the Manual is
wrong; it has been argued by Captain Phillips that even if the note is
right then they would be entitled to rely on this defence of superior
orders. The note says: "The fact that a rule of warfare has been
violated in pursuance of an order of the belligerent Government or of
an indi-vidual commander does not deprive 'the act in question of its
character as a war crime; neither does it, in principle, confer upon
the perpetrator immunity from punishment by the injured belligerent.
Undoubtedly, a Court confronted with the pleas of superior orders
adduced injustifica-tion of a war crime is bound to take into
consideration the fact that obedience to military orders, not
obviously unlawful, is the duty of every member of the armed forces
and that the latter cannot in conditions of war discipline be expected
to weigh scrupulously the legal merits of the order received. The
question, however, is governed by the major principle that members of
the armed forces are bound to obey lawful orders only and that they
cannot therefore escape liability if, in obedience to a command, they
commit acts which both violate unchallenged rules of warfare and
outrage the general sentiment of humanity."
Captain Phillips rightly says that there can be no dispute that the
gassing of these millions of innocent people in gas chambers has
outraged the general sentiment of humanity. Can this Court for one
moment believe that the persons engaged in that did not know that what
they were doing was wrong and contrary to every law and custom of war?
It has been suggested that it was legal under German law. Colonel
Smith was quite unable to produce any authority whatsoever to suggest
that those gas chambers were legal under German law, and fell back on
a most extraordinary contention. He fell back on a Decree, of June or
February 1934 or 1935, which gave absolute power to the competent
authority, so that any order that Himrnler gave automatically became
law. An examination of the Decree, which is before you, shows that it
is absolutely nothing of the kind whatever. What that Decree did say
was that cases against certain privileged bodies which were brought in
the courts would not be tried in the ordinary courts but would be
tried in the courts of those privileged bodies, and that is all. It
gave the S.S., amongst others, immunity from trial in an ordinary
court for matters which they considered to be matters of politics, and
left them to be tried in S.S. courts. That would give absolute
legislative power to Himmler, so that every word he said became law,
and that Decree did give the S.S. the privileged position by which, if
they committed crimes against German law, they could not be tried in
these courts. Therefore, if the crime was one which Himmier himself
was condoning, in all probability they would get off, and that is the
highest you can put it. It is very like the kind of legislation one
finds coming from a Minister. The Minister is empowered to make
Regulations, and any appeal from any Tribunal held under the
Regulations comes to the Minister. It is quite true that the officials
of that Ministry can do very much what they like, but to say that that
gives the Minister power to write a letter to somebody and everything
he says in that letter would become law is an absurdity.
Colonel Smith says: "If you ask me to produce a law book legalizing
the gas chambers at Auschwitz and Belsen, of course I could not. Every
one of them knew gassing was wrong." Now how can this be said to be
done even under cover of authority when it was kept secret even in
Germany, when they were forbidden to talk about it, and when records
that were kept were covered by the words "Special treatment"? Is that
something legal? In my submission, there was no pretence at legality
about it, and it was kept quite deliberately secret from the German
public as well as from the world. Documents were not forged, but were
created so that there was no record of these murders that were going
on daily, and everybody in that camp knew that it was wrong, including
Kramer, Klein and Hoessler. Mrs. Kramer said her husband knew it was
wrong. Klein agreed that he was a murderer. There was no pretence that
this had any part in German law; it was something that was going on
outside the law in secret, in p laces from which the population had
been removed, and every possible means were taken to keep it secret.
Kramer was specifically pledged not to speak about it, and he took the
view that that excuses him for committing perjury when he first made
the statement in this case about it and denied the existence of these
gas chambers at all. Therefore any suggestion that this was done in
course of law has completely failed. All the accused knew that it was
wrong, and unless they thought it was legal and unless in fact it was
legal, then, in my submission, that defence offers them no protection.
[. . . ]
The regulations for the trial of war criminals, under which this case
is taken, have provided something which is not usual in criminal cases
in Eng1and, and that is that the Court have power to consider
evidence, hearsay evidence, written evidence, statements, documents,
oral statements, affidavits and so on, which would not normally be
admissible in criminal cases. That was because in any case of this
kind many of the witnesses would not be procurable. When Belsen was
overrun its existence as a concentration camp was quite unknown. It
was thought to be a transit camp, as it previously had been, and
everyone was quite obviously out to do the best they could for the
internees. There was then no organization for the investigation of war
crimes in 21 Army Group, and a team was created consisting of Major
Smallwood and Major Bell both very experienced members of the Bar,
reinforced by Captain Fox and a number of his N.C.Os. They got to
Belsen to find one or two Military Government officers trying to take
some form of statements, and they settled down to get what evidence
they could whilst it was still available. They found some good
interpreters, particularly Neumann and Duschenes. We realized the
responsibility that was upon us in making a document which could not
be cross-examined on in court, and you have heard of the care which
was taken to ensure that statements were as accurate as they could be.
Both Major Smallwood and Colonel Champion have told the Court of the
care that was taken but of the difficulty which arose whenever anybody
came to mention dates. The internees had no calendars. They knew they
were in there for years and had no hope of getting out. There was no
point in counting time, and any attempts to get the right time was
obviously hopeless. Kopper, Güterman and Singer, for instance, all
agreed that they came on the same transport together and they gave the
date as July, November and Decem-ber. They did not know even whether
it was summer or winter. You could not pin these internees down to a
date, and that must be borne in mind in considering these affidavits.
The only proper way of looking at these affidavits is to consider each
one much as you would consider a witness in the witness-box, then
having read them and from your knowledge of the other evidence in the
case say that you are prepared to accept it or reject it; or you may
say you accept some of it as correct. I suggest that if you look at
these affidavits carefully you will find over and over again internal
evidence of the care which was taken in making them. There, have been
criticisms of the affidavits and there are some which you may think
are uncorroborated in places, but I ask the Court to say that most of
these affidavits have been corroborated in quite extraordinary factors
by small points. Some matters which sounded really nonsensical at
first were corroborated later by actual evidence given. For instance,
when it was said that so many people escaped from the wood Kommando
that they took even sick girls and made them go out to do this very
heavy work it sounded ridiculous at first, but you suddenly find one
of the accused saying that they took 200 girls from a compound to work
with the wood Kommando because so many kept escaping, and that is from
the compound where the sick people were. Little points like that keep
cropping up, and I would ask the Court to think a long time before
they reject the statements which have been made on oath and which,
before being sworn, were tested as far as could be by an impartial and
experienced member of the Bar. Apart from certain phrases which were
objected to by Ehlert and by Lohbauer, there is not one single
instance where an accused has suggested that there was the slightest
impropriety in the way in which these statements were taken.
With regard to the witnesses themselves, Major Cranfield divided them
into three classes: some he accepted unconditionally, others with
suspicion, and others he rejected as being unreliable and exaggerating
their stories. The Court have seen them all and must have formed their
opinions at the time they gave their evidence either to accept their
evidence, or part of it, or not. It was suggested that a lot of these
little girls who were here had got together and made up their stories
and were unreliable, had exaggerated them. But do you not get
precisely the same thing from the witnesses for the Defence as from
those for the Prosecution, and yet they quite obviously have not been
in collusion It has been suggested that I may not try and discredit
the Defence witnesses on some point and accept them on others. I
reject that submission entirely. I am perfectly entitled to say that a
Defence witness is reliable on some point and exaggerates on others:
that is a matter for the Court to decide. Time and it has occurred
that the best evidence of the general conditions in the camp has been
given by a witness for the Defence who has not been in court and heard
the other evidence, and they gave you precisely the same story as that
of the Prosecution witnesses.
[continued in Part 3]
Mike Curtis
Mike Curtis
Colonel Backhouse continues:
The way I invite the Court to look at the facts is this. I suggest to
you that first you should come to a conclusion as to what really went
on at these two camps, Auschwitz and Belsen, that is the general
picture of what was happening there, and then consider how the
individual persons fit into that general picture.
There is only one general picture of Auschwitz. Here was a camp in
Poland, in a place where even the S.S. objected to being posted, and
you have seen the type of place it was from the film supplied by the
Russian Government and heard what went on there from a variety of
people. Can the Court have the slightest doubt, first of all, about
the gas chamber or the selections which were made It is freely
admitted that there were in the camp Birkenau five gas chambers
attached to the crematoria, and that when they were really busy the
latter could not keep up, so that they bad in addition to dig pits
where bodies were thrown and burned by oil or petrol being poured upon
them. People were gassed night and day. We have been told that these
gas chambers could carry 1000 people at each gassing and that during
some periods people were saved up until there were 1000 in order to
save wasting gas. In the busy period the Sonderkommando was working so
that there was a gassing every hour and they were working in double
shifts day and night. You heard that utterly foul picture painted by
Dr. Bendel Can you have any doubt about it The persons who were being
put into these gas chambers were not people who had committed any
crime or offence, they were not people who had been submitted to any
trial; they were pure simply persons who were no longer fit to work
for the Reich, and although Kramer would not admit it to me in
cross-examination, when it was put to him in re-examination he said:
"It was a doctrine of my party to destroy the Jewish race." Whatever
other places may also have been used in the course of this
destruction, Auschwitz alone literally millions of people were gassed
for no other reason than that they were Jews. The people who were
gassed were the old, the weak, the pregnant women and children under
14. Those were the people who were being selected and put into these
gas chambers and quite blatantly murdered. No one could for a moment
believe that that was anything but murder and an obvious crime against
humanity. Many of the people who were gassed were Allied nationals who
came into the hands of the Germans because they were scattered round
the various countries.
Here was something going on which completely defeats the imagination.
Dr. Bimko said that from records which had been secretly compiled by
men working in the Sonderkommando there were no less than 4,000,000
people taken through the crematoria in Auschwitz. The selections were
made on a variety of occasions. In the early days there was a ramp
near the gate, later extended down the main road, and the transports
came in there and the selection took place on the ramp as they came
out of the trucks. A doctor attended the parade, and although the
doctors really did the selection, various S.S. men and women took part
in the actual selection. The doctor did attend and decide those who
were to live and to die, and the ones who were to die were sometimes
marched to the nearest crematorium, or more often put into trucks and
taken to it, taken direct there and never went into the camp at all.
We have had a lot of evidence as to who was on duty on these
occasions, and the Court will consider the different witnesses who
have given evidence with regard to it and the statements of the
accused, but I would suggest that it is quite clear that the
Lagerführer, as a rule, was there and that some Blockführer were
present, whichever happened to be on duty. It is quite clear that
there was a Blockführer on duty at the gate and there were two or
three Blockführer on duty walking about the camp, not attached to one
particular block like a barrack warden, but rather as a leader of
blocks than a leader of a block. And there were obviously men from the
guard company who had come in with the train.
It is my submission that all people who took part in these selections,
knowing what they were, were equally guilty, whether it be the doctor
who says "This one to live, this one to die," or the man who pushes
them into one particular compartment or the other, or the man who
leads them, or the man who gasses them. When people take part in a
murder by poisoning it is not necessary for them to do the actual deed
in order to be convicted. The man who buys the poison and hands it to
the murderer, knowing what it is going to be used for, is equally
guilty, and the man who brings the victim to the tea-table knowing
that the poison is going to be administered there, is equally guilty.
I would submit most strongly to the Court that any of these people who
took part in these parades, knowing what they were for, have made
them-selves a party in one degree or another to the murder of these
persons who were taken straight from that parade and murdered.
The second class of selections which took place were those in the
hospital. What happened was that periodically a doctor, accompanied by
the Lagerältester apparently most of the time, and, in the case of
women, by an Aufseherin, went round the hospitals and all the sick
Jewesses were paraded naked, and those who were obviously not going to
recover were piled into a truck and driven to Block 25, where they
were detained until there were sufficient people for the gas chamber.
There again I ask the Court to say that any person who took part in
that, whether it be the doctor, the Aufseherin, or the Lagerführer, is
equally guilty of the murder of these people, because he or she knew
precisely what they were selecting, what was going to happen and where
those chosen were going.
The third type of selection was that which took place in the camp, and
here for the first time there is a certain amount of dispute as to
what really happened. Most of the witnesses say that only Jews paraded
in the general selection in the camp, but latterly the Polish accused
and witnesses have maintained that that was not so. Starostka said
that if only Jews were ordered to turn out everybody knew what was
happening and, therefore, there was utter chaos and confusion, and
that it was the practice to turn out the whole camp with the Jews on
one side and the Aryans on the other and only Jews selected. Although
a lot of people have tried to pretend that they did not know what
these parades were for, is it not obvious from the body of evidence
that everyone knew what they were for You have had an account of it
from Starostka, and I would ask the Court to accept all Starostka's
evidence except for her own part. She was the Blockäteste and later on
Lagerälteste. She knew what was happening, and says quite frankly: "I
attended these parades; I took down the names of the prisoners." Is
not what really happened that these people lined up knowing perfectly
well what the parade was for, knowing perfectly well that if they were
weak or sick they would go to the gas chamber? Do you really believe
that all these people stood still and there was no screaming, no
shrieking when children were selected or when mothers of children were
selected, knowing they were going to die? Can you for a moment believe
the suggestion that there was no need to use force Some of the accused
say that, but, others are more outspoken and say that of course there
was screaming, people trying to avoid it and people who ran away.
Grese made no bones about what she did-she went after them with a
whip, brought them back and whipped them. Witness after witness gave
you an account of the beatings, and were they not telling the truth?
The last type of selection was the general selection, first mentioned
by Starostka and agreed by the last one or two witnesses. It became
the custom for some people at the camp gate to be selected. As they
came back in the working party they were made to double at the last
bit and those who fell out were selected. Naturally, those who knew
they were in a weak state of health and would not be able to pass the
selection at the gate began to hide in the camp. Then the S.S. started
to hold a parade of everybody left in the cam p when the working
parties had gone out. They were marched up and lined outside Block 25,
and only those who could give a proper account of themselves escaped
the gas chamber. These are the types of selections.
What were the duties of the various people It was the doctor's duty to
make the selection. Hoessler says it was the duty of the Aufseherin at
the selection parade to maintain order, and the Kapos were under her
orders and did what she told them to do. The Lagerälteste has told us
herself that she took down the names of the persons on the selection,
and that all the Aufseherinnen who happened to have cam p duty that
day, together with the Blockführer, had to attend. Although an attempt
was made to suggest that it was impossible to tell the purpose of
these parades, there is overwhelming evidence from the accused and
their own witnesses that that is not so. Hoessler said that parades
were formed up in different ways, depending for which purpose the
selections were made. The witnesses were right when they said only
Jews had to parade for these selections. Lothe said that whenever a
selection was made all Kapos were concentrated in one block and
strictly prohibited from leaving during, that time. Lohbauer said
there were definitely different orders for the selection for the gas
chamber. The witness Schopf said it was quite easy to tell when a
selection was for the gas chamber because only Jews were paraded, and
she was the least intelligent of the girls who have given evidence. Do
you seriously think that Volkenrath, who had enough intelligence to
become an Oberaufseherin, did not know? Everybody knew that Block 25
was kept specially for people who were going to the crematorium. The
Blockältester took them there after they had been selected, and from
there they went to the crematorium. If a woman tried to escape, Schopf
said the Blockältester gave her a hiding and put her back.
We have been accustomed in the last eight weeks to talk quite airily
about selections and we have got quite used to the words "gas
chamber." We have lost the horror we had when it was first mentioned.
We have spent the last thirty days in dealing with what I might call
the minor matters, that is from the general issue of this case. We
have been discussing details as to whether this person did this or
that, and now we want to get the case back into proper perspective.
That is why I want to bring sack to your minds the evidence with
regard to the horrors of the gas chamber. I again submit that every
person who took part in these parades, knowing what they were for,
took part in a deliberately, carefully organized murder, not of one
person but of a whole race--an attempt to. destroy the whole Jewish
race, an attempt to destroy the strength of Poland, one our Allies,
and an attempt to destroy by fear many other people. That martyrdom of
the Jews, in so far as it concerns Allied nationals and was employed
on those persons who came into the power of the Germans and into the
power of the personnel of Auschwitz, was a war crime which has never
been equalled.
It has been suggested by Kramer that the persons who were in those
camps were the dregs of the ghettos. That is manifestly untrue from
the evidence. The people who were going through this gas chamber were
going through without regard to class or ability; without regard to
anything at all except for the fact of their religion, their race, or
that they could work no longer as slaves. That is why they went
through the gas chamber.
What was the position in Auschwitz apart from the gas chamber Witness
after witness spoke of the beatings there and the practice of setting
dogs on people. Witnesses have spoken of the general treatment and
conditions at Auschwitz. When they arrived at Birkenau there was no
drainage, sanitation, light, water or anything, and they slept on
shelves without any beds. What was their introduction to Auschwitz If
they were Jewish they went on a selection; if they were not Jewish
they did not, but the subsequent treatment was the same. First they
went to the bath-house, where they were beaten. They were handed
prison clothes. Everything of their own was stolen-and they were
people who were entided to their property, not people who had been
convicted by a Court. Even the hair was shorn from their heads and put
into sacks to make felt. They were tattooed, and from then onwards
beatings in the camp were regular. I want to rely more on the
witnesses for the Defence than on those for the Prosecution, because
criticisms of the latter have been made. Lothe said that people were
beaten by all the Aufseherinnen and, if necessary, by the Kapos. If
she or others relaxed for a moment on working with the outside
Kommando, the Aufseherin came and beat her. When asked if that was a
regular practice, her reply was very illuminating: "Naturally; that is
how concentration camps are carried on." It was part of the system to
force Kapos to beat prisoners. Even Gura said that he had seen
Blockältesten and S.S. beating at Auschwitz. You will remember when I
suggested to one of these girls that she might have been hit back the
astonishment she displayed. It could not be so.
The whole place was ruled by force and ill-treatment. If a person
knows that he will ultimately die without being released from his
prison, that his only escape can be death in the gas chamber and until
that time hours of heavy work, then is not serious mistreatment
necessary as the only way of compelling him to go on He must be made
to be fright-ened of something worse than death, Starostka told us
what happened to somebody who complained. She complained about the way
one of the S.S. men was not giving food to his gang. What happened?
The S.S man promptly walks in and gives her thirty-five strokes for
com-plaining about it. All the accused say precisely the same thing,
that beat-ing was the natural thing at concentration camps, and Mr. Le
Druillenec said that blows were the language of the concentration
camp. Some attempt has been made to suggest that these blows were not
serious. Is it not quite obvious from the evidence of the witnesses
for the Prosecution and the Defence that at Auschwitz, just as in
every other concentration camp, almost all the Blockführer carried
sticks and other weapons Starostka says, "Some of the Aufseherinnen
had sticks; some had whips, and some had dogs. Prisoners in Auschwitz
were beaten on every occasion. They had to work very hard.
Accommodation was very bad, and they had lice and other diseases, and
dogs were set on them."
I asked Kopper about the people whose job it was to drag corpses to
the mortuary, and she said that there were thirty people whose sole
employment that was. Does not that give about as clear a picture of
what was going on as anything? Even Dr. Klein said that he had people
in the hospital as a result of beatings. The whole treatment of
prisoners both in the camp and in the outside Kommandos was such that
a Muselmann-a phase coined by the prisoners-was a regular thing. Some
attempt was made to suggest that the whip Grese carried was only a
paper toy, but she would have none of it. She said, no it was meant to
hurt and it did hurt when she used it. She said that she had a stick
too, and when she found things disappearing from the kitchen at
Auschwitz she told the Aufseherin to wait for them and if she found
them to give a good thrashing.
You have heard about the Appelle and how they lasted for hours. Grese
said in evidence at first that they did last several hours, but later
she changed that to thee hours. She told the Court how she gave orders
to the Aufseherinnen to go on counting and counting until everybody
was there. Is it to be wondered at that when people were kept for four
hours on a winter's morning, not having had a roper breakfast, they
fell and died? I do not suggest that the roll-call was mistreatment,
but carried on as those Appelle were, they were mistreatment. Also,
Grese has never made any bones about the fact that she made people
kneel as she thought fit, and, in fact, there are few allegations
which have been made against her which she did not frankly admit.
That, I think, is a reasonably fair picture of life at Auschwitz. On
arrival you were beaten and sent to a block that was overcrowded. You
were fed on food that would barely sustain existence. You were
over-worked. and often as you did work you were severely beaten. You
remember that wretched Vistula Kommando which went out eight
kilometres in December, along a filthy road up a steep hill, chased by
dogs, and then made to work.
Most Aufseherinnen came from Ravensbrück, and that is why other camps
have been brought into this case, because it was quite obvious that it
would be suggested that Belsen was an exception, the conditions there
being due to a breakdown of transport and so on. Therefore it was
necessary to show that these conditions prevailed at all other
concentra-tion camps. Have you not got precisely the same picture at
Ravens-brück, Dora, and the others ? It is not a picture of people
having their ears boxed and being slapped in the face, but of people
receiving severe thrashings whenever they were caught doing anything
wrong, with the definite intention of making an example of them:
pictures of collective punishment where a whole block was made to go
without food because one of them had committed an offence: pictures of
Kapos being dis-missed from their position because they were not
rn-treating prisoners sufficiently. Is not that your general picture
of Auschwitz?
[continued in part 4]
Mike Curtis
Mike Curtis
Colonel Backhouse continues:
[. . . ]
You have to remember that almost all of these Kapos say that
collective punishment was very much in vogue. You have heard about the
kneeling and beating from Löffler. You remember the occasion when
Ehlert is supposed to have caught a young Russian and stripped and
searched her, looking for jewellery. You have the occasion when Kramer
was present when they are supposed to have taken part in a beating.
She agrees that she was present when Kramer slapped the girl. Ehlert's
account of that was that that was a good thrashing and kicking. I
suggest that Volkenrath is one of the old gang, both at Auschwitz and
Belsen, and is in it up to the neck.
[ . . .]
The next accused, Grese, is a curious woman, who is quite frank about
almost everything which is alleged against her. She was trained at
Ravensbrück, and says she was conscripted into the S.S. If she was
conscripted into the S.S., why do you think her father thrashed her
and turned her out of the house? Grese's sister says that when they
were children they both wanted to be in the Bund Deutscher Mädchen but
their father would not let them, but Grese had ambitions to be in the
Nazi Youth Movement before she ever went away to work, and when she
comes back dressed up in the uniform of a concentration camp guard her
father gives her a thrashing and turns her out of the house. It is one
of two things-either she was taken against her will, or she told him
what things were happening and what she was doing.
She graduates from Ravensbrück to Auschwitz, and her first job,
according to herself was telephone duty in the Blockführer's room,
although Kopper said that they never did employ women on that duty at
all. She admits being in charge of the Strafkommando for two days,
because, I submit, Volkenrath had already said so. Kopper says that
she was in charge of this Kommando for some seven months. You will
remember the story of sending Jewesses to fetch things beyond the wire
and Kopper's story of the enquiry which resulted. Can you imagine
Kopper making up such an extraordinary story ? Then she is in charge
of the gardening Kommando, and you have the stories of her riding
about on a bicycle with the dog. She denies ever having a dog, and
says that although she had a bicycle she never used it as
Aufseherinnen were not allowed to. You have the stories of Rozenwayg,
Watinik and Triszinska of her being in charge of this Kommando, with
Lothe as a Kapo, and setting a dog on them. Then she came back to camp
duties and went to the post office. It is plain from Hoessler's
evidence that she also had to help the Blockführer in the morning when
the working parties came in, and here again you have a number of
incidents which are said to have occurred whilst she was acting as
Blockführerin. Then, quite suddenly, this young girl is put in charge
of the Aufseherinnen in Camp C, the camp where the gassings of the
Hungarians are about to begin. She is put in charge of 30,000 people.
You have heard about the cellophane whip which, she says, was made to
hurt. In Camp C there were long Appelle which sometimes lasted three
to four hours. She said: "I carried a stick and if people ran away
from these selections I went and dragged them back, and I whipped
them." She is quite frank about it, and on her own admissions alone I
would suggest that at Auschwitz there is ample evidence to show she
was ill-treating, beating and prolonging Appelle.
Then she comes to Belsen and is made Arbeitsdienstführerin, and again
you have the stories as to how she beat people. She stood at the gate
beating them, she beat girls working in the kitchen, and she beat
people and made them do sport. She says: "Although I carried a whip
and heat people at Auschwitz, for some reason I never did it at
Belsen. I always used my hands at Belsen, although at Belsen the
prisoners were so horrid I did not like touching them." So far as that
girl is concerned, her sister said that when she was a child she was a
frightened child and a little coward who ran away, and she adopted
this doctrine of Nazism which turns the coward into the bully. She
went to Ravensbriick and there she found her courage, because people
dared not hit back. At Auschwitz she had her revolver and cellophane
whip, and at the age of about 21 she finds herself in charge of 30,000
women. She makes no secret of it. She beat them, and when she came on
to Belsen can you doubt that she carried on in precisely the same way
I next come to Lothe and Lohbauer, who are in quite a different
position to those we have had up to now. Lothe was a prisoner and was
sent to Ravensbrück, Auschwitz, Neuengamme and Birkenau, and she was
treated very badly. I do not deny that, but I do suggest that when she
eventually became a Kapo she was from then on on the other side. She
worked with the S.S. and against the prisoners. There is incident
after incident as to what she is alleged to have done, various
beatings and so on. She denies everything, although she agrees that
she was treated very badly at Ravensbrück and says that all the
Aufseherinnen there had pistols. If it is untrue that she did anything
bad, why did Volkenrath promptly make her a Kapo again at Belsen and
put her in charge of the vegetable Kommando
Lohbauer was another Kapo of the same type and went through very much
the same process as Lothe at Ravensbrück and Auschwitz, coming
together with the rest of them to Belsen. You have endless allegations
of beatings against this woman; probably more than against anyone
else. You also have the story of the pushing of people into the ditch
with another Kapo whilst the S.S. stood by and watched. She says: "I
admit carrying a stick at Auschwitz, and I admit using it." Eventually
she agreed that one of her duties was to see that Kommandos inside the
camp did their work. Have you any doubt at all that that woman became
just as much one of the party as the other S.S. women?
[ . . . ]
Mike Curtis
Richard Phillips
Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> In article <19981214225229...@ng-ft1.aol.com>, deb...@aol.com
> (Debunks) wrote:
>
> > >Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
> > >From: gmc...@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
> > >Date: 12/14/98 10:27 PM EST
> > >Message-id: <367fcc33...@news3.ibm.net>
> > >
> > >In <367567C2...@earthlink.net>, on Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:32:18
> > >-0500, Richard Phillips <rgp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Philllips
> > >>
> > >> On the subject of Irma Griese, I'm not very passionate, one way or another,
> > >but I
> > >> would like to know this: Can it be definitely established whether any acts
> > >she is
> > >> alleged to have committed would be punishable by death in America.
> > >
> > >I am hurt, Richard. I already answered this question some time ago, and
> > >you seem to have ignored it. Irma Grese was found guilty of murder,
> > >which the last I heard was punishable by death in America.
> > >
> > >--
> > >Gord McFee
> >
> > Too bad they never provided any evidence to go along with that guilty verdict.
>
> Ah, but plenty of evidence of Grese's guilt was provided! It's just that
> Boger the anti-Semitic lying scumbag Nazi apologist chooses to handwave it
> away because Grese is his Nazi sex-goddess and he can't emotionally deal
> with the fact that she was a sadistic murdering dyke bitch.
=========================================
Philllips
" ... the fact that she was a sadistic murdering dyke bitch...." Isn't this an
example of "ranting" - an accusation leveled at nationalist/racialists every time
they say something that Jews don't like - yes?
But back to Griese. Could you give me a precis of the testimony against her. How many
people testified. Were they cross-examined?
============================
>
>
> For those interested in proof of Boger's irrelevant Nazi apologia,
> Holocaust denial, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright
> lies, please peruse DejaNews and visit the Nizkor Project at:
>
> http://www.dejanews.com/
> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph
> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies
> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/1997/blackmore.0197
> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/1997/fafner13.0197
> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-1
>
Mike Curtis
>But back to Griese. Could you give me a precis of the testimony against her. How many
>people testified. Were they cross-examined?
We will start with H.O. Le Druillenec for he has some observances that
are primary.
One page 59: of the Belsen Trial H.O. Le Druillenec is being
questioned by Colonel Backhouse for the Prosecution. It should be
noted that we are in the prosecution phase of the trial.
Q: What was the attitude of the S.S. guards to the prisoners?
A: I did not see very much of the S.S. during my stay at Belsen, but
on one occasion later I did see an S.S. officer whipping the women in
the woman's compound near the burial pits because they had lit some
fires to do some rather primitive cooking.
[. . .] Page 62:
Q: Were all the guards armed with firearms?
A: Yes, all the S.S. and Hungarian guards in the look-outs and who
walked about in the camp. . . . .
[H.O. Le Druillenec cross by Grese's lawyer appears on page 63: This
is Major Cranfield.]
Q: Were all the S.S. personnel and Blockaeltesten you came into
contact with men?
A: Yes. I saw some S.S. women the first night, but only at the
entrance to the camp watching the Kommandos coming to the camp from
various directions.
***********************
This was the extent of his cross-examination.
[The next witness is Ada Bimko who is under examination from Colonel
Backhouse, the prosecutor which begins on page 66.]
A: I am a Jewess from Poland and a Doctor of Medicine. On 4th August,
1943, I was sent from Sosnowitz to Auschwitz. During that week all the
Jews of the town where I was living were arrested, and because of my
being a Jewess I was sent to Auschwitz along with 5000 other Jews.
[She was asked if she reconized any of the accused and she stated that
she recognized No. 9 Irma Grese among several others. page 67. The
following is a comment about Grese at Auschwitz and not Belsen.]
A: . . . . Grese was responsible for roll-call. I didn't see her in
the woman's camp.
[We will move to Belsen.]
Q: What were the conditions at Belsen when you first arrived?
[She arrived at Belsen from Auschwitz on 23rd November, 1944. page 69]
A: The conditions were bad, but the internees there were not beaten
and there were no roll-calls. In the morning there was either coffee
or soup, for mid-day meal about half a pint of soup, and in the
evening one-sixth of a loaf of bread three time a week. The other
three times, instead of bread, soup again. This ration does not kill
instantly, but if you lived on these rations for a long period under
those conditions, you must inevitably die. At the end of January and
in February other S.S. men and women arrived from Auschwitz.
Q: Was there any change after Kramer and the others arrived?
A: Yes. We had suddenly the feeling that Belsen was going to become a
second Auschwitz. For instance, they started with roll-calls, Apelle,
and those S.S. men who previously did not hit prisoners started now to
do so. . . . .
[Major Cranfield does his cross on page 71-72. Grese hasn't been
mentioned much so far. But this exchange is important.]
Q: Was it the Aufseherinnen and the Kapos who ordered the women on
parade and produced them in lines?
A: No, on the orders of the Aufseherin, that is the Chief Supervisor;
the Blockaeltesten were responsible for those Appelle and they lined
them up.
Q: Were only Jews sent to the gas chamber?
A: During the time I spent in the women's camp only Jews were sent to
the gas chamber. when I was there I was told that there was a camp for
gipsies and they were also sent to the gas chamber.
[Redirect by Backhouse the prosecution begins on page 78.]
Q: With regards to these different parades, were there regular parades
for roll-call every day?
A: Every day twice.
[End of pertenant information from Ada Bimko who was arrested because
she was Jewish.]
Read the followups, Richard.
Mike Curtis
Mike Curtis
>But back to Griese. Could you give me a precis of the testimony against her. How many
>people testified. Were they cross-examined?
>
>============================
In order to keep things within the same thread I'm also including this
deposition here. Several others will follow as we proceed through the
prosecution's case.
Information about Grese from the Deposition of Edith Trieger a Slovak
age 20.
2. At Auschwitz I knew an S.S. woman by the name of Grese and I
identify her as No. 2 on photograph Z/4/2. I have now been told that
her full name is Irma Grese. Grese was at Auschwitz from about June,
1942, until 31st October, 1944. Until May, 1944, Grese was in charge
of working parties of women, but from that date onwards until she left
the camp she was Rapportfuehrerin. I saw Grese in Belsen after I left
Auschwitz.
3. In August, 1944, I saw this women Grese at Auschwitz shoot a
Hungarian Jewiss who was aged about 30 years. I saw this incident from
my block. At this time a transport of prisoners was arriving at the
camp by train, and when prisoners arrived all prisoners in the camp
were confined to their blocks. The Hungarian woman stood outside the
block watching the transport arrive, when Grese approached the woman
on her bicycle. She stopped, got off her bicycle, about five neters
away from the woman, and shouted to the woman, "Get in your block."
Then, without giving the woman an opportunity to go to her blkock,
Grese produced a revolver from a holster she was carrying, aimed at
the woman and fired. The woman fell to the ground and stayed there
unconscious. Grese rode away on her bicycle, leaving the woman there.
I saw all this occur from a distance of about 50 meters. After about a
quarter of an hour the transport passed by and Grese dissapeared from
view. I then went to the woman who had been and found that she had a
bullet-hole through the left breast. I pulled her clothes open and saw
the hole where the bullet had penetrated and left the body. There was
a pool of blood on the ground and the woman's clothing was soaked in
blood. The woman was dead. I am quite certain of this, as I put a
mirror to the woman's mouth to test whether she was breathing and it
did not cloud over. After satisfying myself that the woman was
actually dead I returned to my block. No one else came to see the body
at that time as we were still confined to out blocks. The body lay in
the road for another hour and then other prisoners came out and
carried the body away to a spot behind a hut and covered it with a
blanket. I did not see the body after that.
4. One day in the beginning of October, 1944, a selection to choose
people for the gas chamber was made inside the block where I lived.
Selections were sometimes made outside and sometimes made inside the
block. The selectors were Kommandant Kramer, Dr. Mengele, S.S. woman
Drechsler and S.S. woman Mandel. Dr. Mengele was in charge of the
selection. The woman Grese was present, moving about the block in the
passage and round the door of the block. All the women in the block
had to undress. I was excused as I was a Block Leader. Those selected
were taken to my room to await removal to the gas chamber and I was
ordered to keep those selected in my room. Drechsler stood near to me
all the time and I was made to stand in front of the doorway of my
room with my hands outstretched. The selected persons endeavored to
escape by passing under my arms and between my legs. When an
opportunity occurred I let them do so and they ran out into the
street. Grese saw this. One or two got away, but Grese caught the
majority and beat them with her hands and kicked them until they were
forced back into the room. All the girls were naked.
5. I saw many selections in Camp C at Auschwitz and Grese was
invariably present. At the smaller ones I have seen Grese sort out the
weaker women and send them off for removal to the gas chamber. I have
also seen Grese beating women prisoners at the camp every day,
sometimes with her hands, sometimes with a rubber stick and sometimes
kicking them.
Source: Phillips, The Belsen Trial, p.689-690.
There was no mention of Grese in Ms. Bimko's deposition so we will
proceed on to the next witness to bring up Irma Grese, Dora Szafran.
[Begins on page 84 and the examination is by the Prosecution]
A: I am 22 years of age and my home address is Warsaw. I was arrested
on the 9th of May, 1943, because I was a Jewess, and sent to
Maideneck, where I stayed seven weeks before going on a transport to
Auschwitz, where I arrived on the 25th June, 1943. There were roughly
6000 of us. We were tattooed and I was hit by one of the Kapos and
still have a mark on the arm. He struck me because I was a Jewess.
People were sent to the gas chamber for being Jews and I myself went
through several selections. Kramer, Hoessler, Tauber, Drechsler, Dr.
Kein and Dr. Mengele all took part at one time or another, and women
were present helping them.
Q: Will you look at the accused in the dock and see if you can
recognize any of them?
A: No. I, Kramer; No. 2, Dr. Klein; No. 5, Hoessler; No. 6, Bormann;
No. 9, Grese; No. 16; No. 29; No. 48, Stanislawa; No. 46, Kopper.
[ . . .]
Q: Whilst you were at Auschwitz did you see any other persons beaten
besides yourself?
A: I saw it very often when I was working in Kommando 103 and we were
carrying loads of earth and coal. I have seen Kramer beat a person so
often that I really cannot say how many times. I have seen Grese do it
in Auschwitz, and about a fortnight before the British troops
liberated Belsen I saw her beat a girl in the camp. she had a pistol,
but she was using a riding-crop. The beatings were very severe. If
they were not the cause of death they were not called severe in the
camp.
Q: Subsequently did you go to Belsen?
A: On 18th January I arrived at Belsen and was put into Block 28. The
conditions were so bad that it is impossible to find words in this
world. In half a barracks there were 600 to 700 people. We were lying
on the floor covered with lice and every other kind of vermin one
could imagine. Our food depended very largely on the efforts of the
senior of the block. If she was energetic we might get a quarter basin
of soup at mid-day, if not, we might get it at three o'clock. There
was no bread for four weeks before the arrival of the British troops.
During the whole time I was at Belsen, people were not taken for baths
nor were their clothes changed. Towards morning there were several
hundred corpses in the blocks and around the blocks. When Lager
Kommandant or Grese came along to inspect people, the corpses were
cleared away from the front of the blocks, but inside they were full
of corpses.
[ . . . ]
[On 25 September 1945 Szafran was cross-examined by Grese's defence
councel Major Cranfield. This is on page 87.]
Q: Do you remember telling us that you had seen Grese, No. 9, beating
a girl in Belsen about a fortnight before the British troops arrived?
A: I remember now, it was in the kitchen. Grese was not the kitchen
Kommandant, she came there with the Lager Kommandant on inspection.
She beat the girl with a riding-crop made of leather.
Q: If I tell you that at Auschwitz Grese carried a stick and sometimes
a whip, but at Belsen she never carried either, are you sure that you
are not confused over this incident?
A: In Auschwitz she wore a pistol and in Belsen she went about with a
riding-whip. She was one of the few S.S. women who had a permit to
carry arms. I cannot say whether she was wearing a pistol at the time
of this incident. Perhaps it is possible that by that time members
were not allowed to carry arms.
Q: Do you remember after the liberation a committee of prisoners being
set up to receive complaints against the German warders?
A: I do not know whether it was a committee or not, but I knew from
the British police that some men were coming for investigations from
prisoners.
Q: Did you have several interviews with the British sergeants or
officers, and were you told that what was wanted were detailed charges
against specific persons whom you could recognize, rather that general
accusations?
A: I had not been told anything. The only thing they told me was that
I had to tell them my experiences in the camp, therefore I mentioned
only those people whom I remembered best.
Q: You remember, finally, a written statement was taken down which you
signed. Why did you not include in it this incident of the beating?
A: I am able now to add many things to my descriptions, and not
everything I told at that time was written down.
Q: While you have been waiting to be called as a witness have you been
outside the court with Dr. Bimko, Liteinska, Frommer, Jonas and other
prosecution witnesses?
A: We were always together. We were sleeping and being fed together.
[On page 90 we have Backhouse's re-direct examination of D. Szafran]
[ . . . ]
Q: You said that you could tell us of a good many more instances of
Grese's conduct?
A: Yes. In Camp A, Block 9, Blockaelteste Ria and Hoessler and Dr.
Enna, the prison doctor, made a slection for the gas chamber, and two
selected girls jumped out of the window and Grese approached them as
they were lying on the ground and shot them twice. She was always
active at the camp gate making inspections and if any of the prisoners
wore another sock or shoe or anything like that, he or she would be
beaten up. I cannot remember with what she used to beat them because I
had to stand at attention.
Q: You were asked a good many questions about dates. Were you given
calendars either in Auschwitz or in Belsen?
A: No, but I remember very well because they were so terrible and
ghastly.
[There is nothing concerning Grese in the parts of her deposition
located on page 748.]
Thus ends this witness.
[The next witness is Ilona Stein ]
Ilona Stein's deposition reads, in part (p. 747):
2. Whilst I was at Birkenau an S.S. woman named Irma Grese was
responsible for many beatings, one murder and sending people to the
gas chamber. I identify No. 2 on photograph Z/4/2 as Irma Grese. What
I speak of I speak of to my own knowledge.
3. In July, 1944, I was working in the kitchen at Birkenau when I saw
a woman, whose daughter was in an ajoining camp, go to the dividing
wire in order to speak to her daughter. Grese, who was passing on a
bicycle, immediately got off, took off her leather belt and beat the
woman with it. She also beat her on the face and head with her fists,
and when the woman fell to the ground she trampled on her. The woman's
face became swollen and blue. A friend of the woman's daughter took
her away and the woman was in the hospital for three weeks suffering
from the effects of the beating. I saw everything myself that Grese
did to this victim.
4. Whilst at Birkenau I have seen Grese making selections with Dr.
Mengele of people to be sent to the gas chamber. On these parades
Grese herself chose the people to be killed in this way. In one
selection about August, 1944, there were between 2000 and 3000
selected. At this selection Grese and Mengele were responsible for
selecting those for the gas chamber. People chosen would sometimes
sneak away from the line and hide themselves under their beds. Grese
would go and find them, beat them until they collapsed and then drag
them back into line again. I have seen everything I describe. It was
general knowledge in this camp that persons selected in this way went
to the gas chamber.
5. Sometime in August or September 1944, at one of these selection
parades, one Hungarian woman who had been selected tried to escape
from the line and join her daughter in another line which was for
those not chosen. Grese noticed this and ordered one of the S.S.
guards to shoot the woman, which he did. I did not hear the order, but
saw Grese speak to the guard and he was shot at once. In the company
of some nurses from the hospital I took the dead body to the mortuary.
**********************************************
[Her examination by prosecutor Col. Backhouse begins on page 99:]
A: I am a Jewess from Gyongyos in Hungary and am 21 years of age. On
8th June, 1944, I was sent to Birkenau, Auschwitz, where I stayed
until transferred to Bergen-Belsen on Ist January, 1945.
(Witness gave details of alleged ill-treatment and shootings in
connection with several of the accused.)
Ilona Stein's earlier cross-examination by Grese's council (pp.
99-100):
Q: With regard to the incident you described of a woman being shot
when trying to escape from a selection parade in Auschwitz, was she a
Hungarian?
A: Yes.
Q: You described an incident when Grese arrived on a bicycle and beat
another woman. did she beat her with her belt?
A: I do not know exactly what was in her hands, but I did see that she
had something in them. I do remember, however, that I have seen Grese
taking off her belt and beating prisoners with it.
Q: Was the body taken away on a stretcher by hand or was it taken away
by something on wheels?
A: When somebody died, which happened in very many cases, he was
simply put into a blanket and dragged away.
Q: Have you ever been beaten by Grese yourself?
A: No, not in the kitchen where I was working, but once when I was out
on a working party Grese saw me talking to somebody through the barbed
wire and she immediately started beating me.
Q: Did you see Grese beating a great many people a great many times at
both camps?
A: I saw her more frequently doing this in Auschwitz than in Belsen.
Q: Was the reason you only had this one beating from her because you
behaved yourself well?
A: I had not very great contact with her because, working in the
kitchen, we were rather separated.
Q: Do you agree that quite a light blow will cause your nose to bleed?
A: I do not agree with that, and apart from that it was very rare that
small blows were given. The general procedure was a proper beating. I
have no scars from the injuries I received.
So ends Ilona Stein's part in Grese's trial.
To be continued with more witnesses.
Mike Curtis
Mike Curtis
>But back to Griese. Could you give me a precis of the testimony against her. How many
>people testified. Were they cross-examined?
>
>============================
>[The next witness is Abraham Glinowieski who is under examination from Colonel
>Backhouse, the prosecutor which begins on page 103.]
A: I come from Plonsk in Poland, was arrested in 1942, and sent to
Auschwitz, where I stayed until either October or November, 1944,
after which I was in one or two other places and eventually arrived in
Belsen about two and a half month before the camp was liberated.
[He points out no.9 Grese as one among many defendants he recognizes.]
A: Accused No. 11 (Hilde Lobauer) was a Lager Kapo in Auschwitz and
assisted in transporting people to the crematorium. She helped prevent
people from escaping or hiding. Grese was the camp leader in Camp C. I
saw her every day, and when the transports from Hungary arrived she
sent thousands and thousands of people, ill and in quite good health,
to the gas chambers. She used to come on inspections to the respective
blocks and, according to her whims, she beat people with a stick if
she disliked them. She also carried a pistol. . . . .
[Cross Examination by Major Cranfield who was Grese's council begins
page 106:]
Q: Have you ever been on a selection parade yourself?
A: I was present at each of them.
Q: Were these parades always formed up the same way?
A: Yes. The prisoners were fromed up in ranks of five.
Q: Is it correct that S. S. personnel, Kapos, Blockaeltesten and
blockleaders all assisted in getting the prisoners fromed up on
parade?
A: Only S.S. and Lager Kapos were present.
Q: When you were told to get on parade were you told what the parade
was for -- a roll-call, working party, gas chamber selection or what?
A: We were not told anything. It was quite evident that the people
selected on the parade had been sent to the gas chamber, because at
night the trucks came in, the women wew loaded naked and they shouted
and cried.
Q: It was quite evident after the parade, but you did not know before
it?
A: Yes, we all knew what was the purpose of the parade. The camp
doctor arrived and that was the best proof to us.
**********************************
>>[The next witness is Lidia Sunschein who is under examination from Colonel
>>Backhouse, the prosecutor which begins on page 116.]
A: I am a Polish Jewess aged 23, from Lodz, was sent to Auschwitz in
March 1943, and transferred to Belsen in January, 1945.
[ . . . ]
Q: Would you tell us about the other persons you recognized?
A: Bormann, I remember at Auschwitz. She was always with her dog and
people were terrorized when she came. Volkenrath was in the parcel
department in Auschwitz. I used to go to her store to get bread and I
have seen her beat people when she suspected them of having stolen
something. Ehlert was always at the gate at Belsen when Kommandos were
going to work. She beat the prisoners for things like having a scarf
done improperly or boolaves wrongly made up. She hit people mainly
with her hands. I can say little about Grese at Auschwitz, but in
Belsen, where she was Arbeitsdienstfuehrerin, she behaved very badly.
One one occasion, when our Kommando was coming back from work, one of
the girls lost a piece of rag from her pocket. As a punishment the
accused made the whole Kommando run up and down kneeling and rising
for about half an hour. . . . .
[ . . .]
Cross-examined by Major Cranfield: Were the dogs at Auschwitz trained
police dogs?
A: I suppose so, because they used to bite the women and tear pieces
of flesh.
Q: Did you see any S.S. women other than Bormann with these police
dogs?
A: In 1945 I saw many women other than Bormann with dogs, but when
Bormann was there only one or two beside her.
Q: Have you ever seen Grese at Auschwitz with one of these police
dogs?
A: No.
[ . . . ]
>>[The next witness is Helen Klein who is under examination from Colonel
>>Backhouse, the prosecutor which begins on page 127.]
A: I am a Jewess from Tarnow Poland and was arrested December, 1942,
when I was 18 years of age. I was first sent to a labour camp and then
to Auschwitz in November, 1943. At the railway station a selection was
made and of 1200 women only 407 were left, the remainder being sent to
gas chambers. . . .
[She recognizes several of the accused including No. 9, Irma Grese]
Q: Tell us what you know of the others you recognize?
A: . . .Irma Grese I saw beating people, but apart from thatshe made a
kind of sport with us in Belsen. It was, "Fall down"and "Get up"for
two hours, and various other kinds of tortures. A special place was
chosen for this sport; sometimes the Blockaelteste did it and
sometimes the accused. If anybody stopped she beat them with a
riding-whip which she always had with her. . . . .
[ . . . ]
Cross-Examined by Major Cranfield: Have you been told about Kramer's
misdeeds by other witnesses for the prosecution?
A: No.
Q: Have they told you about Irma Grese?
A: I did not need anybody to tell me anything, because I went through
it myself.
Q: Will you tell us of what this sport consisted?
A: It was falling down and getting up and crawling, and the speed was
increased all the time. We were marched in and had to do it in fives
and Grese stood in front giving words of command.
Q: You said she inflicted various kinds of tortures on you. Are these
words not a deliberate exaggeration?
A: My evidence is based only on what I saw myself and what I
experienced. She was constantly beating us.
Q: You say Grese carried a riding-whip. Was that at Auschwitz or at
Belsen?
A: Mainly in Belsen that she usually beat people with the whip, but
also in Auschwitz.
Q: Was she wearing a pistol at Belsen?
A: I do not remember exactly. I cannot say whether I saw her with a
pistol in Auschwitz or in Belsen, but I remember I have seen her with
a pistol.
Q: Is it not true that at Auschwitz shw wore a pistol and carried a
stick or a whip, but at Belsen she had neither?
A: I remember that she always carried a riding-whip and was waiting
for us in the camp when we returned from Kommando work, which was the
usual period chosen by her for the sports. That was in Belsen.
Q: How long was Grese in Belsen before the liberation?
A: I remember her from about a month before the liberation, but it was
possible she was there earlier. I myself was beaten only onece by her
and that was during the sports.
[More to follow]
Mike Curtis
Mike Curtis
>But back to Griese. Could you give me a precis of the testimony against her. How many
>people testified. Were they cross-examined?
>
>============================
Now we move to the rest of the affidavits.
The first is the deposition of Gertrud Diament and part 3 concerns
Irma Grese. Gutrud was a 21 year old Czech. This can be found on page
660:
3. I recognize from a batch of photographs Nos. 2 and 3 on photograph
Z/4/2. No. 2 is Irma Grese and No. 3 is Hilde Lohbauer. Grese was the
S.S. woman Kommandant of the working parties both at Auschwitz and at
Belsen. I have seen her at both camps, when in charge of working
parties, beating women and girls with a stick. Her favorite habit was
to beat them until they fell to the ground and then kicked them as
hard as she could with her heavy boots. She frequently caused blood to
flow and, in my opinion, many people she injured were likely to die
from such injuries, but I have no direct evidence of such deaths.
Grese was also responsible for selecting victims for the gas chamber
at Auschwitz. I was present on such occasions. Lohbauer was not S.S.
at all, and she was a prisoner at Belsen. She acted for the S.S. and
was in charge of working parties under Grese. . . . .
*Deposition of Gitla Dunklemann a 40 year old Polish woman.
2. I was in Block II and the chief S.S. woman who dealt with us was
aged about 30, blonde, with hair tied up at the back. I saw her
tod-day in Belsen Camp and I pointed her out to the British officer,
who was a Jewish minister. I have been told that her name is Irma
Grese.I have seen this woman commit many acts of brutality when we
were paraded before her at Appell or for the selection of working
parties. I have seen her strike women about the face and body with a
rubber truncheon and kick them. I have seen her draw blood and knock
women senseless. I have heard her order that the women should be left
unattended on the ground. These parades lasted from 2 to 3 hours.
These acts were committed for not standing still at the parade or
other trivial matters. If a person collapsed out of weakness she would
kick and beat them. She was the worst of the women S.S. There were two
others, who were not so bad, and, indeed, sometimes helped. Many
people were beaten on each parade and many people would collapse from
weakness.
From the Deposition of a 31 year old Czech woman named Klara Lebowitz.
2. I worked in the kitchen and though I was dismissed from Appell
after a few minutes in order that I might go to work, whilst working
in the kitchen I could see what happened at the Appelle.
3. S.S. woman Grese was in charge of the Appelle which took place
twice a day. These lasted at least two hours and, more often, three or
four hours. If a mistake was made in counting the internees they were
made to stand until the missing one was found, and this often meant
all day. No time was allowed for food, and people used to fall
unconcious as a result of this. When the woman Grese attended these
Appelle she often made the internees go on their knees for hours on
end or hold stones in their hands high above their heads. If an
internee did not stand upright, because she was weak or for any other
reason, she would beat her with a rubber truncheon sometimes until she
was unconcious. She would kick the persons lying on the ground and
many people were taken to hospital as a result of her treatment. The
internees were not allowed to carry anything in their pockets, and the
woman Grese would often stop and search internees whom she would beat
unmercifully if she found anything on them, even a hankerchief.
4. I have often seen the woman Grese with Dr. Mengele selecting people
for the gas chamber and forced work in Germany. If the woman Grese saw
a mother and daughter or sisters trying to get together in selections
for forced work in Germany she would beat them until they were
unconcious and leave them lying on the ground.
From the Deposition of Katherine Neiger (Czech, aged 23).
3. I was one of the first batch of a thousand girls to arrive at
Belsen. Previously only male prisoners were kept at Belsen. I was
employed as a clerk and it was my duty to record the number of deaths
of women in the camp each day. . . . .
From the Depositon of Katherine Neiger continues:
2. I was in Camp "C" at Auschwitz from IIth August, 1944, until 21st
August, 1944. I recognize No. 2 in the photograph Z/4/2 as one of the
chief S.S. women in the camp. I am now told that her name is Irma
Grese. There were 31 blocks, each containing 1000 people, in this
camp, and every day internees of one of the blocks would have to
attend Appell. These Appelle would last from 3 a.m. to 9 a.m. and
Grese would attend. At her orders the internees would have to hold
their hands above their heads during this period, holding in each hand
a large stone. I was one of the internees who had to do this. Grese
carried a pair of gloves with her which she put on when she was going
to beat anyone, which she did with her fists. The beatings were given
for no apparent reason.
3. People were kept in Camp C for about a fortnight only, and at the
end of this time they would be transferred to working camps. Grese
would personally make selections for these transfers and always took
particular trouble to arrange that relatives were never in the same
transport.
From Deposition of Luba Triszinska (USSR, aged 26)
2. I recognize No. 2 on photograph Z/4/2 as a woman who was in charge
of Arbietskommando at Auschwitz, of which I was a member for about
five weeks. I have now been told that her name is Irma Grese. Often we
had to march 16 km. to a place where we had to pick herbs for the
kitchen. Grese would ride a bicycle and would be accompanied by her
big dog. Some of the prisoners were too weak to keep pace with the
main column and when they fell behind, Grese would order her dog to
bite them, at the same time hitting them with a short wooden stick.
Those beaten were so injured and weak that they had to be carried by
the strongest of the prisoners all the way to the working site and
then back to the camp. On arrival at the camp the injured and weak had
to report to Block 25, which was the block to which all prisoners
destined for the gas chamber were sent. I have been present when Grese
has been chasing and driving out of their hiding places women
internees who were trying to avoid being sent to the gas chamber. She
would beat and pull them. I have also seen Grese at Block 25 assisting
and using force to load the women into the lorries which were taking
them to the gas chamber.
From the Deposition of Sonia Watinik(Pole, Aged 24)
4. . . . I was also present and heard Lothe ask an S.S. woman, whose
name I do not know, but whom I recognize as No. 2 on photograph Z/4/2,
and whose name I have now been told is Irma Grese, to set her dog on
my friend Hanka Rosenwayg. I saw the dog bite Hanka on the shoulder.
From the deposition of Miriam Weiss (Yugoslav, aged 24)
3. I recognize No. 2 on photograph Z/4/2 as a woman who was
Oberaufseherin or Rapportfuehrerin during 1943-44 at Auschwitz. I also
remember her being at Belsen. I am now told her name is Irma Grese.
The depositions of the accused will follow at the next posting. Then
we will head into the defense protion of the case against Irma Grese.
>The depositions of the accused will follow at the next posting. Then
>we will head into the defense protion of the case against Irma Grese.
>
I changed my mind and will present the depositions of the accused as
they come up for direct testimony.
Instead we will start with major Winwoods opening remarks for Josef
Kramer. Within these remarks some concessions and admissions are made.
page 150:
"The gas chamber existed, there is no doubt about it. There is very
little question about its purpose being to remove from Germany that
part of the population which had no part in German life. The way it
was done was by selections which took place when the transports
arrived at the station, and later, inside the camp. These selections
were ordered by Hoess, and later by the the Kommandant who relieved
him, and invariably they were presided over by a doctor. . . . Present
at these selections were certain S.S. people. Large numbers of
transports were coming in, and when thinks that a lot of these people
knew what they were coming to Auschwitz for, I think it is fair to
say that a good deal of control was needed when they arrived. These
transports came into Auschwitz No. 2, Birkenau, because the gas
chamber was situated there, and it was Kramer's misfortune that he was
Kommandant of that part.
[ . . . ]
With regard to roll-calls, Kramer, as Kommandant, did not take part in
them, but he will tell you that a roll-call is an essential part of
running any camp of any kind. As to ill-treatment and beatings, he
will tell you that as he went up and down the camp he never did
himself see any S.S. man or Kapo indiscriminately beating or
ill-treating any of the internees. He never saw men or women members
of the S.S. carrying sticks, rubber truncheons, or any articles of
torture of which we have heard so much. He will tell you that S.S.
men and women were authorized at Auschwitz to carry pistols as part of
their uniform and for self-protection in view of the numbers of
internees as compared with themselves.
[ . . .]
Now for direct-examination of Kramer on these points.
Josef Kramer is questioned by his defense council, Major Winwood (pp.
157-158):
Q: When you arrived at Auschwitz who was the Kommandant of the whole
camp?
A: Obersturmbannführer Hoess. It was a very large camp and was
subdivided into Camp Nos. 1, 2 and 3. I was Kommandant of Camp No. 2,
Birkenau.
Q: Will you explain to the Court how it is that, in the first
statement you made, you said the allegations referring to gas
chambers, mass executions, whipping and cruelty were untrue?
A: There are two reasons for that. The first is that in the first
statement I was told that the prisoners alleged that these gas
chambers were under my command, and the second and main reason was
that Pohl, who spoke to me, took my word of honour that I should
remain silent and should not tell anybody at all about the existence
of the gas chambers. When I made my first statement I felt still bound
by this word of honour which I had given. When I made the second
statement in prison, in Celle, these persons to whom I felt bound in
honour -- Adolf Hitler and Reichsführer Himmler -- were no loner alive
and I thought then that I was no longer bound.
Q: Did Kommandant Hoess say anything to you about the gas chambers?
A: I received a written order from him that I had nothing to do with
either the gas chambers or the incoming transports. The Political
Department which was in every camp had a card index system of
prisoners and was responsible for personal documents and for any sort
of transports or incoming prisoners. At Auschwitz the Political
Department was also responsible for all the selections from incoming
transports for the gas chamber. In the crematorium the S.S. and
prisoners -- Sonderkommando -- were under the command of the
Kommandant of Auschwitz, Hoess. As the place where the transports
generally arrived was in the middle of my own camp I was sometimes
present at their arrival. The people who took part in supervising and
who were responsible for the security were partly from Auschwitz No.
1, and partly from my own camp at Birkenau, but the selection of these
people who had to supervise was done by the Kommandant of Auschwitz
No. 1. The actual selections of the internees were made only by
doctors. Those who were selected for the gas chambers went to the
different crematoria, those who were found to be fit for work came
into two different parts of my camp, because the idea was that in a
few days they were to be re-transferred to different parts of German
for work.
Q: did you yourself ever take part in any selections?
A: No, I never took part, nor did the other S.S. members of my staff.
I do not know exactly who the doctors got their orders from, but I
think it was probably from Dr. Wirtz, the senior doctor of the camp.
The doctors lived together in Auschwitz No. I where the headquarters
were.
Q: What did you think of the whole gas chamber business?
A: I asked myself, "Is it really right about these persons who go to
the gas chambers, and whether that person who signed for the first
time these orders will be able to answer for it?" I did not know what
the purpose of the gas chamber was.
[ . . .]
Q: Were the S.S. men and women allowed by the Kommandant to carry
weapons?
A: In Auschwitz the S.S. men and women had their revolvers or guns,
and the Audseherinnen, probably on the authority of my predecessor or
Hoess, had permission to carry revolvers. They were not allowed to
carry any other sort of weapon. Once when a transport arrived I saw
that some of the S.S. men had walking-sticks, but I was afraid that
they might use these for corporal punishment, and I gave the order
that they were to be taken away. If any other S.S. men carried sticks
or unauthorized weapons they did it against my orders.
[ . . . ]
Q: Were there dogs in Auschwitz?
A: Yes, in Birkenau. There was a special guard company responsible for
these dogs, which had nothing to do with administrative personnel, and
they were distributed to different working squads out on agricultural
work.
[. . . ]
[Now on to his cross-examination by Major Backhouse (p. 174): ]
Q: I suggest to you that you went on lying about the gas chamber until
you were shown a photograph which had been taken of one at Natzweiler,
and that was the first time you admitted the existence of such a
thing?
A: It was not so, because between the two statements I was not asked
any more.
[...]
Q: What was the purpose of the Natzweiler camp?
A: To let prisoners work in a quarry near by?
Q: Were the prisoners not regularly supplied from that camp to
Strasbourg for experiments?
A: No.
Q: Was there no gas chamber there before you arrived?
A: No.
Q: Was it constructed under your instructions and did you quite
deliberately gas 80 prisoners in that gas chamber?
A: Yes, on the orders of Reichsführer Himmler.
[...]
Q: Did you force these people into the gas chamber yourself?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you actually put the gas in yourself and watch them inside as
they died through a peephole you had made?
A: No.
[...]
Q: Did you not describe that the women continued to breathe for about
half a minute?
A: One could hear that. It was not necessary to observe.
Q: Were you not chosen as Kommandant of Birkenau because you had
proved yourself willing to do this sort of thing?
A: No, I do not think so, because I got a special order that I had
nothing to do with either crematoria or transports.
Q: When Kommandant Pohl demanded your word of honour not to talk about
the gas chambers, why was it that you could not tell anybody if it was
all legally proper and above board?
A: I do not know. Nothing could be said about concentration camps in
the outside world.
[...]
Q: Was the purpose of the gas chambers not a part of the determination
of your Party to try and exterminate the Jewish race and all the
intelligent people of Poland?
A: I do not know.
[...]
[Kramer is questioned by the Judge Advocate (p. 181): ]
Q: When a Jew was gassed and cremated at Auschwitz was any official
record made in the records of the country of that person's death?
A: I do not think so. All these things were done by the Political
department of Auschwitz No. 1.
[Colonel Backhouse cross-examines Mrs. Rosina Kramer, the wife of
Joseph Kramer (p. 183): ]
Q: You said that Hoess had been sent to Auschwitz for the incoming
transports. what transports were these?
A: I believe these were the transports which were destined for the gas
chambers.
Q: You knew about the gas chambers, then?
A: Everybody in Auschwitz knew about them.
Continued in next posting.
Mike Curtis
Mike Curtis
>But back to Griese. Could you give me a precis of the testimony against her. How many
>people testified. Were they cross-examined?
>
>============================
Kramer Cross-Examined by Grese's council Major Cranfield(page 172)
Q: Is it true that Grese was not in the S.S.?
A: Yes. She was employed as a supervisor of a Gefolgschaft.
Q: Did you send for Grese to come from Auschwitz to Belsen?
A: No, but when she came with a transport I made a request to
Oranienburg that she should remain with me.
Q: Would the police dogs obey only the orders of the man or woman who
had trained them?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Grese ever have a dog at Auschwitz or Belsen?
A: I never saw her with a dog either on or off duty.
Q: As her commanding officer will you tell the Court how Grese
discharged her duties as Aufseherin?
A: As her Kommandant I can only say the very best about her. She took
her duties very seriously and discharged them very well indeed.
Q: What do you say about the accusations made against her of shooting
prisoners with a pistol and of treating themwith savage cruelty?
A: It is not true.
Q: You were a member at auschwitz when the Aufseherinnen made
themselves whips; what were they made of?
A: Some sort of cellophane paper or cellulose. I prohibited the
carrying of whips.
[ . . . ]
Further Cross by Col. Backhouse (page 175)
Q: I put it to you that not only were you present at these selections,
but you took an active, and very active, part in making the selections
yourself.
A: That is not true. It is a lie.
Q: When Camp C was liquidated were you not present actually helping to
load people on to the transport to go to the gas chamber?
A: No.
Q: You heard witnesses here in person, one after another, and
affidavits of dozens of other people read, with regard to the beatings
which went on at Auschwitz. Do you say that never happened?
A: Yes.
Q: How often were you in the camp that you commanded?
A: From 7 in the morning till 7 at night.
Q: Then if this really happened you must have seen it?
A: In that camp which I commanded, certainly.
Q: You heard Grese's statement read in which she said she carried a
whip and used it consistently?
A: That is exaggerated. It was not so.
[ . . .]
Q: Do you remember the habit of making women make sport? Was that done
on your orders?
A: These disciplinary measures did not originate from me. They belong
to the status of concentrations camps and women's compounds. I did not
give orders for women to do it in Belsen.
***
Major Winwood (defense) examines Fritz Klein(page 183):
Fritz Klein, . . . , I was born on 24th November, 1888, at Zeiden near
Kronstadt in Rumania. I am a Rumanian subject of German nationality. I
qualified as a doctor in Budapest . . . .
Q: Where did you go in December, 1943?
A: I went to Auscwitz where Hoess was at that time Kommandant. Dr.
Wirtz was a senior doctor and told me where I had to work. I started
my duties in the women's compound in Auschwitz, continued in the gipsy
camp, then in the Jewish mixed family camp and finally in Auscwitz I.
There were seven or eight doctors in Auschwitz.
Q: Will you tell us what happened on selections?
A: Dr. Wirtz, when the first transport arrived, gave orders to divide
it into two parts, those who were fit to work and those who were not
fit, that is those wo, because of their age, could not work, who were
weak, whose health was not very good, and also children up to the age
of fifteen. One looked at the person and, if she looked ill. asked a
few questions, but if the person was healthy then it was decided
immediately.
Q: What happened to those people who were selected as capable of work?
A: The doctor had only to make the decision. What happened to them
afterwards was nothing to do with him.
Q: What happened to those people wom the doctors selected as unfit for
work?
A: The doctor had to make a selection but ad no influence on what was
going to happen. I have heard, and I know, that part of them were sent
to the gas chambers and the crematorium.
[ . . . ]
Q: Was your work completed when you had divided the transports into
fit for work or unfit?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever go down to the gas chamber yourself?
A: Yes, once, when it was not working. I had no duties to perform
there.
Q: What was your personal opinion about this gas chamber business?
A: I did not approve, but I did not protest because that was no use at
all.
[ . . . ]
Cross-examined by Colonel Backhouse (page 186):
Q: Dr. Klein, you are an educated man and were educated at a
non-German university. When you went to Auschwitz and found these
transports of people being taken to the gas chambers and being killed,
did you not realize that that was murder?
A: Yes.
Q: Is it not true that those who were not fit for work were simply
destroyed?
A: Yes.
Q: Those who were fit to work were beaten to their work, starved and
overcrowded until their turn came to go to the gas chamber; is that
not true?
A: I have not seen it happen, but if it did happen it was not right.
Q: Whilst you have been at concentration camps you have seen many
people beaten by the S.S.?
A: No, I have not seen that myself. I have received people into the
hospital who had been beaten by the S.S., but the majority were beaten
by Kapos and other inmates. I made a report to the Lagerfuehrer with
the names of those who had given beatings. I cannot say I reported
every beating.
[ . . . ]
Q: Have you seen S.S. women on these parades?
A: Yes.
Q: You, as a doctor, divided those who were healthy from those who
were to die, and S.S. marched them off?
A: Yes.
Q: Did none of them ever try to escape?
A: Sometimes.
[ . . . ]
Q: When the Hungarian transports arrived was the gas chamber working
day and night then?
A: It might have been.
Q: Were they not sent to the gas chamber?
A: I do not know exactly, but I believe so.
***
>Major Munro (defense) examines Franz Hoessler(page 195):
A: I am of German nationality, was born in Oberdorf in Schwaben on 4th
February, 1906, and am a photographer by profession. I was out of work
in 1931, and on the 30th January, 1933, on the day Hitler came to
power, I volunteered for the S.S. For three months I stayed at home in
Kenten doing nothing, and after this period I was sent to Dachau,
where I was a member of the S.S. police force. I came to Auschwitz in
June, 1940. At that time it was a very small camp; there were only
three blocks surrounded by barbed wire, and the number of prisoners
was altogether about 400. I left in November, 1940, and returned to
Birkenau in July, 1943. I stayed in auschwitz until 6th February,
1944, during which period I was Lagerfuehrer in the women's compound.
[ . . . ]
Q: Did you attend selections for the gas chamber?
A: Yes, I attended these selections because I had to guard the
prisoners. I did not make selections myself, and there were no
selections without doctors.
Q: What did you think when you were told to attend a selection parade
for the first time?
A: When they told me for the first time, in summer 1943, I did not
know what it meant. I only thought I had to see that the people got
out of their wagons and came into the camp.
Q: Did you later learn the real purpose of these parades?
A: Yes, I heard about it and did not think that that was right. Once
when Hoess arrived in his car I asked him if it was all right what was
going on, and he just told me to do my duty. I received the order to
go on selection parade personally and verbally from Hoess.
Q: Will you explain exactly what happened when the transports arrived
in the camp?
A: The transport train arrived at the platform in the camp. It was my
duty to guard the unloading of the train and to put the S.S. sentries
like a chain around the transport. the next job was to divide the
prisoners into two groups, the women on the left, the men to the
right. Then the doctors arrived, and they selected the people. The
people who had been selected by the doctors and found to be fit for
work were put on one side, the men and the women. The people who were
found to be unfit for work had to go into the trucks, and they were
driven off in the direction of the crematorium. After everything had
been unloaded the train departed from the platform. I had to go with
two soldiers to the front and see that no prisoner succeeded in
getting out by smuggling himself into the train.
[ . . . ]
Q: What happened to those prisoners who were put on one side for
retention in the concentration camp?
A: They were taken into the camp, got a bath, their number was
tattooed on their arm, and then they were billeted in blocks. I know
all about it but had nothing to do with it.
[ . . . ]
Q: Did you attend any of the selections in the hospital?
A: Yes, I had to. I attended three altogether, but only because I was
responsible for discipline. I did not make any selections myself.
[ . . . ]
Q: Did this mean that they [people in quarantine] were to be sent to
the gas chamber?
A: No, but I believe that the witnesses must have thought that those
people would come into this banned Block 25, which really did lead
into the gas chambers.
[ . . . ]
Q: Did you do anything to prevent people from being sent to the gas
chamber?
A: Yes, very often young girls came to me and implored me, saying that
their sister or their friend or somebody else they liked was in this
Block 25 and I should try to save them, and I have done so. I asked
for their numbers and wrote a little chit saying that those numbers
should be released to Block 25. I saved several hundreds.
Q: How did you manage to conceal that from Kommandant Hoess?
A: These numbers were compiled into a nominal roll of numbers and
names, and they were given to the Political Department of the camp.
The Political Department, for reasons which I do not know, sometimes
crossed out a few amongst those who were on the list, so what I did
was checked those numbers which were given to me by those people who
wanted to save their relatives and compared them, and when I found
these numbers I crossed them out.
[ . . . ]
Cross-examined by Major Cranfield, Grese's attorney (page 201):
Q: Had Grese a dog at Auschwitz?
A: No.
Q: Will you give your opinion of Grese's work as an Aufseherin?
A: Grese worked in the camp post office, but in the evening, when
working parties returned to camp, she had, just as all the other staff
who were in the administration, to help the Blockfuehrerinnen during
their Appelle. It was part of my duty to see whether they were
trustworthy enough and efficient, and I must say that Grese was very
good. Whenever I gave her any job to do I was quite sure she would do
this job and fulfil it to my entire satisfaction.
Q: You have heard the accusations made against her in this court, that
she shot prisoners with a pistol and treated prisoners with savage
cruelty. What do you, as her Lagerfuehrer, say about that?
A: I have to say that, in my opinion, Grese particualrly is quite
incapable of even loading a pistol or firing a shot. As to the
accusation that she had beaten prisoners, any Blockfuehrer,
Lagerfuehrer or Aufseherin who tries to keep things in order will have
some prisoners who will say that she is right to do that and some who
will say she is not right in doing it.
Q: Witness Szafran stated that at a selection, at which you were
present, two selected girls jumped out of the window and Grese shot
them twice while they were lying on the ground. What do you say to
that?
A: I do not agree with it at all, because I do not remember that I
made any selections. The prisoner could not have jumped out of the
window because in Camp A, Block 9, the windows are made in such a
manner that they cannot be opened, so if she had done it she must have
jumped through the glass of the window. If Grese had been shooting in
front of the block it would have been my duty to go out and see what
it was all about, but I never heard any shots fired in Camp A.
[ . . . ]
Cross-examined by the Prosecution; Colonel Backhouse:
Q: You have been in the concentration camp service for about ten years
now?
A: Not quite ten years.
Q: And all this time you have never seen anybody beaten in a
concentration camp?
A: I have never seen anybody ill-treating prisoners.
Q: Did you have your eyes shut all the time?
A: No, not at all.
Q: So that all these prisoners who say they have been beaten and your
own guards who have admitted in their statements that they have beaten
people are wrong?
A: I cannot say that at all; the question was whether I had seen it.
[ . . . ]
Q: When the doctor had put people on either side, who gave the orde
for those not going to the gas chamber to march off to the camp?
A: The Official of the Political Department when he finished counting
told the appropiate Blockfuehrer to take them away. It was the same
for those who were going to be gassed.
Q: Who actually loaded them into the trucks?
A: The Blockfuehrer. There were some steps leading up and the people
went up.
Q: Did the prisoners always go quite happily and willingly to their
death?
A: No, I should think not so.
Q: Did anybody ever try to run away?
A: I have never seen that.
[ . . . ]
Q: Did Bormann have a wolf-hound?
A: She had a brown dog, but it was not a wolf-hound; it was a very big
dog.
Q: Did these S.S. women, Grese, Bormann, Volkenrath and Ehlert perform
their duties entirely to the satisfaction of the S.S.?
A: I cannot say that. Grese, Bormann, and Volkenrath were working
under me. Bormann was working outside on a Kommando, but I have never
heard anything against her.
Mike Curtis
>But back to Griese. Could you give me a precis of the testimony against her. How many
>people testified. Were they cross-examined?
>
>============================
Major Munro (defense) examines Elisabeth Volkenrath(page 213):
A: I am a German, married, and was born on 5th September, 1919, at
Schonan in Silesia. Before the war I worked in a hairdressing saloon
and was called up for national service in 1939. In 1941 I was
conscripted into the S.S. and sent to Ravensbrueck, where we were
trained as Audseherinnen and told what we had to do on that job. I
worked with outside Kommandos and had to take care that prisoners did
not escape and that they did their work. In March, 1942, I was sent to
Auschwitz No. I, where I worked in a sort of tailoring shop where they
mended the uniforms of the prisoners. In August, 1942, the women's
compound was transferred to Birkenau, and there I had some duties
until I was taken to hospital ill. At the end of December, 1942, I
took over the parcel store and was there up till September, 1944.
[ . . . ]
Q: What did you do after that?
A: I was transferred to Auschwitz I, where I was put in charge of a
working camp. I left there on 18th January, 1945, and arrived at
Belsen on 5th February.
[ . . . ]
Q: Whilst you were at Auschwitz did you take part in gas chamber
selections?
A: I myself, no. When I took over the women's camp in August, 1942, it
my duty to be in the camp, and owing to this I was present at these
selections. I made none myself. My duties were to see that the
prisoners kept quiet and kept order, that they did not run about.
[ . . .]
Q: Did you ever beat anyone at Auschwitz other than with your hand?
A: No.
What about Belsen?
A: Only with my hand.
[ . . . ]
Q: Was there a punishment known as "making sport"?
A: Yes. They had to do exercises if they had done something that was
forbidden. For instance, if they were in possession of something they
were not supposed to have. It did not last very long and I have not
seen it in Belsen at all.
[ . . . ]
Q: In your statement you say, "It is true that I have had to make
prisoners on Appell hold their hands above their heads, but it was
always on orders from others. This happened in Auschwitz on
instructions from Mandel and Drechsel"?
A: I said it this way, that I had seen it but that I did not order
them to do it.
[ . . . ]
Cross-examined by Major Cranfield(defense council for Grese, page
216):
Q: You know the accused Grese. How long have you served with her?
A: I have never served with her. Our duties were never together. I was
with her at Auschwitz up to the evacuation of the camp in January.
Q: Did you serve with her at Belsen?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you Oberaufseherin with Grese under your command?
A: For a few weeks at Auschwitz and during the time at Belsen.
Q: Had Grese a dog?
A: When I saw her, no.
Q: Was Grese in charge of the Strafkommando?
A: Whether she was in charge I do not know, but I have seen her with
the Strafkommando which worked inside the camp. I believe there were
Strafkommando outside also.
[ . . . ]
Cross-examination by Prosecutor Colonel Backhouse (page 217):
Q: Is not Ravensbrueck, where you got your training, where practically
all S.S. women were sent to be trained?
A: I believe so.
Q: That was a camp entirely for women, was it not?
A: Yes.
Q: Was not the treatment of women at Ravensbrueck almost worse than at
Auschwitz?
A: The treatment was severe, but I cannot call it bad.
Q: Do you remember the gas chamber at Ravensbrueck which was in a wood
about two miles from the camp?
A: I do not know anything about that.
Q: Was not Dr. Rosenthal engaged in experiments on gas gangrene?
A: I have never heard of it.
Q: Were not the internees at Ravensbrueck being regularly used for
experimental purposes?
A: I never heard anything about it.
Q: I suggest to you that it was at Ravensbrueck that S.S. women were
taught to beat and ill-treat prisoners and that at that place you were
taught that the only way to keep prisoners in order was to beat them
and ill-treat them until they were frightened to death of you?
A: That is not true.
Q: Did you carry pistols at Ravensbrueck?
A: Some of the Aufseherinnen did.
[ . . . ]
Q: There were three kinds of selections for the gas chamber, were
there not. First, when the transports arrived; second, in the camp
outside the blocks or in the bath-house; and third, in the hospital?
A: I have never been there when the transports arrived. No women were
there at all. The Aufseherinnen had to be present when parades were
held in the camp. The doctor made the selection, but whether for life
or death or anyting like that we did not know because we did not know
the pupose of these selections.
Q: In you statement you say, "I have been present when selections were
made form prisoners by the S.S. doctors of those unfit for work. Those
people were all sent to Block 25, and to my knowledge they were never
seen again." Is that true?
A: I did not know these people personally and when they were sent away
I was not present, so where they went I would not know.
[ . . . ]
A: I did not go with them to Block 25, and it was strictly prohibited
for us Aufseherinnen to go into the hospitals or into the block.
Q: Everyone in the camp knew what Block 25 was for, did they not?
A: I do not think so.
[ . . . ]
Q: What did you do on these selections if the women did not behave in
an orderly manner?
A: Everything was quiet and orderly. Everybody was doing what he had
been told to do. And everybody stood and there was no question about
shouting and screeming.
Q: These people knew they were being selected to die, did they not?
A: I did not know and the people could not have known either. Nobody
knew why these selections were made.
Q: Are you seriously asking the Court to believe that?
A: Yes.
Q: Is it not right that it was quite easy to tell a selection parade
because only Jews had to parade for it?
A: We were never told anything about it.
Q: I suggest ot you that when these women found that they were being
put with people in Block 25 they tried to escape, to hide, and get
with people on the other side, they cried and they shrieked?
A: When I was present it never happened.
[ . . .]
Q: I put it to you that not only on selection parades but throughout
your time in concentration camps you knew perfectly well that
discipline was kept by regular beatings?
A: If they did not obey orders and were slapped it was their own
fault. If they were more intellignet, then they did obey orders and
everything was all right.
[ . . . ]
A bit of summing up for a moment.
>REPLY: All we have of gas chamber selections is that they were
>conducted by others, identity unknown. Strange indeed! Perhaps the
>staff of Auschwitz also did not know each other's names, just like the
>inmates claim not to know them.....
Seems you haven't been reading the testimony here. A sampling of known
identities is offered below:
Ada Bimko:
[Major Cranfield does his cross on page 71-72. Grese hasn't been
mentioned much so far. But this exchange is important.]
Q: Was it the Aufseherinnen and the Kapos who ordered the women on
parade and produced them in lines?
A: No, on the orders of the Aufseherin, that is the Chief Supervisor;
the Blockaeltesten were responsible for those Appelle and they lined
them up.
Q: Were only Jews sent to the gas chamber?
A: During the time I spent in the women's camp only Jews were sent to
the gas chamber. when I was there I was told that there was a camp for
gipsies and they were also sent to the gas chamber.
[Redirect by Backhouse the prosecution begins on page 78.]
Q: With regards to these different parades, were there regular parades
for roll-call every day?
A: Every day twice.
Edith Trieger:
4. One day in the beginning of October, 1944, a selection to choose
people for the gas chamber was made inside the block where I lived.
Selections were sometimes made outside and sometimes made inside the
block. The selectors were Kommandant Kramer, Dr. Mengele, S.S. woman
Drechsler and S.S. woman Mandel. Dr. Mengele was in charge of the
selection. The woman Grese was present, moving about the block in the
passage and round the door of the block.. . . .
5. I saw many selections in Camp C at Auschwitz and Grese was
invariably present. At the smaller ones I have seen Grese sort out the
weaker women and send them off for removal to the gas chamber. I have
also seen Grese beating women prisoners at the camp every day,
sometimes with her hands, sometimes with a rubber stick and sometimes
kicking them.
Ilona Stein's deposition reads, in part (p. 747):
2. Whilst I was at Birkenau an S.S. woman named Irma Grese was
responsible for many beatings, one murder and sending people to the
gas chamber. I identify No. 2 on photograph Z/4/2 as Irma Grese. What
I speak of I speak of to my own knowledge.
Abraham Glinowieski:
Grese was the camp leader in Camp C. I
saw her every day, and when the transports from Hungary arrived she
sent thousands and thousands of people, ill and in quite good health,
to the gas chambers. She used to come on inspections to the respective
blocks and, according to her whims, she beat people with a stick if
she disliked them. She also carried a pistol. . . . .
Helen Klein:
A: . . .Irma Grese I saw beating people, but apart from thatshe made a
kind of sport with us in Belsen. It was, "Fall down"and "Get up"for
two hours, and various other kinds of tortures. A special place was
chosen for this sport; sometimes the Blockaelteste did it and
sometimes the accused. If anybody stopped she beat them with a
riding-whip which she always had with her. . . . .
Lidia Sunschein:
I can say little about Grese at Auschwitz, but in
Belsen, where she was Arbeitsdienstfuehrerin, she behaved very badly.
One one occasion, when our Kommando was coming back from work, one of
the girls lost a piece of rag from her pocket. As a punishment the
accused made the whole Kommando run up and down kneeling and rising
for about half an hour. . . . .
Mike Curtis
Mike Curtis
>But back to Griese. Could you give me a precis of the testimony against her. How many
>people testified. Were they cross-examined?
>
>============================
EVIDENCE FOR THE DEFENDANT IRMA GRESE
Helene Grese, sworn, examined by Major Cranfield
A: I am the sister of Irma Grese, 20 years old, and live at Wrecken in
Wreckensburg. My father was an agricultural worker, and I have two
sisters and two brothers. My mother died in 1936. When she was 14
years old, my sister Irma worked on the farm of a peasant in a village
near where we lived. From the time that she entered the Concentration
Camp Service I saw her twice. In 1943 she came home on leave, and the
only thing she told us about her work was that her duties consisted in
supervising prisoners so that they should not escape. I saw her when
she left Auschwitz in 1945, and she told me that she had been working
for a considerable period in a sort of a post office, receiving and
distributing mail, and that sometimes she had been detailed to guard
duties.
Q: From your knowledge of your sister, do you think her a person
likely to beat the prisoners under her charge?
A: No. In our schooldays when, as it sometimes happens, girls were
quarrelling and fighting, my sister had never the courage to fight,
but on the contrary she ran away.
Cross-examined by Colonel BACKHOUSE-When your sister went to work
on the farm when she was 14, how long did she stay there?
A: About six months to a year.
Q:Where did she go from there?
A: She went to Hohenluchen as a sort of nurse, and then to a small
dairy in Fürstenburg, where she worked, I believe, twelve to eighteen
months.
Q: Did she go straight from there into the S.S.?
A: Yes, in 1942 she went to Ravensbrück, which was very near us.
How long before 1943 was it since you had seen your sister? -In
spring, 1942, when she was working in the dairy.
Q: When she came home in 1943, did your father give her a thrashing?
A: I did not see that, but he was quarrelling with her because she was
in the S.S.
Q: Did he forbid her to come to the house again?
A: I do not know. She never came again.
Q: Was not that because she told you what she did at Ravensbrück?
A: I do not know why.
Q: You would be 16 at that time; you never asked your sister what she
was doing in the concentration camp, and she never told you?
A: She told us she was supervising the prisoners working inside the
compound, and she had to see that they were doing their work well and
that they did not escape. We asked her: "What do the prisoners get for
food, and why have they been sent to a concentration camp and she
answered that she was not allowed to talk to the prisoners and did not
know what sort of food they got.
Q: Why did your father lose his temper with her?
A: Because he was very much against her being in the S.S. We all
wanted to belong to the Bund Deutscher Mädchen, but he never allowed
us to do so. I have not seen my father since April, 1945.
***
EVIDENCE FOR THE DEFENDANT IRMA GRESE (page 248-253)
[Grese's deposition will follow after her testimony.]
IRMA GRESE, sworn, examined by Major CRANFIELD -I was born on 7th
October, 1923. In 1938 I left the elementary school and worked for six
months on agricultural jobs at a farm, after which I worked in a shop
in Luchen for six months. When I was 15 I went to a hospital in
Hohenluchen, where I stayed for two years. I tried to become a nurse
but the Labour Exchange would not allow that and sent me to work in a
dairy in Fürstenburg. In July, '942, I again tried to become a nurse,
but the Labour Exchange sent me to Ravensbrück Concentration Camp,
although I protested against it. I stayed there until March, 1943,
when I went to Birkenau Camp in Auschwitz. I remained in Auschwitz
until January, 1945.
Q: Will you tell the Court the various duties you did during the
period you were at Auschwitz?
A: At first I did telephone duties in the Blockführer's room. For two
days I was transferred as a sort of light punish-ment to be in charge
of the Strafkommando which carried stones from outside into the camp.
During 1943 I had the Strassenbaukommando, and I also had the
gardening working party for about two months in the autumn. In
December, 1943, I was in the parcels office censoring mail in place of
Volkenrath, and from May until December, 1944, I was in Compound "C."
I was transferred then for about two weeks to Auschwitz No. I to be in
charge of two blocks in the men's compound, where prisoners went to
work during the day. I left Auschwitz on i8th January, '945, for
Ravensbrück, and in the following March came to Belsen.
Q: You were in charge of the Strassenbaukommando; do you remember
whether the accused Kopper was in that Kommando or not?
A: No, I am quite sure she was not there.
Q: Apart from being in charge of this Kommando and the Straf-
kommando carrying stones, were you at any time at Auschwitz in charge
of any other punishment Kommando?
A: No.
Q: When you were in "C" Lager, were there any other Aufseherinnen
there?
A: Another six or seven who were changed every week. I was the senior.
Q: How many blocks and how many prisoners were there in "C" Lager?
A: Twenty-eight blocks where prisoners were accommodated, one block
for food, food stores, one office, company office, two stores with
underwear and clothing, two or three blocks for latrines and two
wash-houses. There were approximately 30,000 prisoners, all of whom
were Hungarians, whilst the Blockiltesten were Czechoslovaks. The
prisoners came and went, the highest number being 30,000, but I
generally had about 20,000. Although the prisoners changed in numbers,
the number of Aufseherinnen remained the same. When the transports
arrived the prisoners had been already selected and they were found
fit for work. They went into the wash-house, washed, had their hair
cut and then were distributed.
Q: You have told us that there were 28 living huts, how many persons
could they properly accommodate?
A: The normal accommodation would have been for 100 or a maximum of
300, but I had to take in 1000 in each block because the camp was
overcrowded. In some of the blocks there were bunks large enough for
five people to sleep in, but in most of the blocks there were neither
beds nor bunks.
Q: How did the prisoners behave?
A: In the beginning when there were smaller numbers of them and they
had sufficient to eat they were quite all right. Later on when I had
twenty to thirty thousand they behaved like animals, when food was a
bit more scarce. Then at food distribution when people carried the
food from the kitchen to the blocks, at nearly every corner there were
20 or 30 people who waited to pounce upon them and take the food away.
With regard to sanitary conditions, in the beginning it was quite all
right, but later on when the camp was over-crowded wherever you went
it was just as if the prisoners thought that any place was good enough
for a latrine, and the proper latrines were ruined by throwing all
sorts of stuff into them, and then they simply ceased to function.
Q: How old were you at this time, when you were in "C" Lager?
A: Twenty.
Q: Did you carry a stick at Auschwitz?
A: Yes, an ordinary walking-stick.
Q: Did you carry a whip at Auschwitz?
A: Yes, made out of cellophane in the weaving factory in the camp. It
was a very light whip, but if I hit somebody with it, it would hurt.
After eight days Kommandant Kramer prohibited the whips, but we
nevertheless went on using them. I never carried a rubber truncheon.
Q: Did you, at Belsen, carry any kind of weapon?
A: No.
Q: Will you explain to the Court on what occasions you struck
prisoners, and the reason why you did it?
A: In the beginning I did not use anything at all, but later on, when
the crowds in Camp "C" became larger, then a great deal was stolen and
prisoners did not obey my orders, even when they were quite light
orders. Every day there were complaints of things stolen in the
kitchen, and I put two Aufseherinnen in charge and gave them orders to
keep their eyes open and whenever they found somebody on the spot who
stole anything, to give them a good thrashing. In the beginning every
prisoner had two blankets, but when the crowds became bigger I had to
see that everybody got a blanket and therefore each prisoner only got
one. We found they had cut up all those blankets and made all sorts of
things out of them-shoes, jackets, etc. I gave strict orders that
everything which had been made out of blankets was to be returned at
once, but I got nothing at all, so then I ordered the control of all
the blocks and also personal searches of the prisoners. On those
occasions I used my whip. The Jewish Lagerälteste gave the signal for
parades, but there were always prisoners who tried to evade them, and
when I found the numbers were not right I gave orders to the
Aufseherin to count again and again until those who were missing had
been found, and I said the parades would go on until the number was
right.
Q: Have you ever taken an individual prisoner and beaten her until she
was bleeding or fell senseless to the ground, or have you ever kicked
a prisoner whom you have struck to the ground?
A: Never.
Q: At Belsen; have you ever struck a prisoner at all?
A: Yes, but only with my hand. The condition of the prisoners was so
bad that one had almost a horror of them.
Q: You heard Volkenrath describe the occasion on which an S.S. woman
called Buchhalter was punished. Were you present?
A: Yes. Kommandant Hoess ordered me to give her the last two of the 25
strokes with which she was punished by the order of Reichsführer
Himmler. I was then 20.
Q: When you were in "C" Lager, where did the orders come from for
Appelle?
A: For the roll-call for counting purposes it was I who gave the
orders. The signal was a blow on a special whistle given either by the
Aufseherin, Lagerälteste or the Kapo.
Q: Where did the order come from for what we call "selection parades"?
A: That came by telephone from a Rapportführerin or from
Oberaufseherin Dreschel.
Q: When the order came were you told what the parade was for?
A: No.
Q: What were the prisoners supposed to do when the whistle went?
A: Fall in in fives, and it was my duty to see that they did so. Dr.
Mengele then came and made the selection. As I was responsible for the
camp my duties were to know how many were leaving and I had to count
them, and I kept the figures in a strength book. After the selection
took place they were sent into "B" Camp, and Dreschel telephoned and
told me that they had gone to another camp in Germany for working
pur-poses or for special treatment, which I thought to be the gas
chamber. I then put in my strength book either so many for transfer to
Germany to another camp, or so many for S.B. (Sonder Behandlung). It
was well known to the whole camp that S.B. meant the gas chamber.
Q: Were you ever told anything about the gas chamber by your senior
officers?
A: No, the prisoners told me about it.
Q: You have been accused of choosing prisoners on these parades and
sending them to the gas chamber. Have you done that?
A: No; I knew that prisoners were gassed.
Q: Did you carry a pistol at Auschwitz, in Camp "C"?
A: Yes. It was rather dangerous in the last months to be without a
pistol because of the partisans, and I carried it only for
self-protection. It was not loaded. I did not carry a pistol at Belsen
and have never fired at a prisoner. I fired a sporting gun into the
air on New Year's Eve.
Q: At Auschwitz did you ever have a dog?
A: No. There were trained dogs there, but I had nothing to do with
them.
Q: Did you ever order prisoners to kneel down at an Appell?
A: Yes, because we could not properly count; they were running to and
fro.
Q: The witness, Szafran, has accused you of beating a girl at Belsen
with a riding crop about a fortnight before the British troops
arrived, and also that at Auschwitz during a selection two girls
jumped out of the window and you shot them while they were lying on
the ground. Is that true?
A: I never shot at all at any prisoner.
Q: The witness Stein told us that at a selection in the summer of 1944
some prisoners tried to hide, but that you saw them, told somebody,
and a woman was shot. It was suggested that the woman was shot by an
S.S. man on guard. Had you any authority to issue orders to an S.S.
guard?
A: No.
Q: The same witness alleged there was an incident when a mother was
talking to her daughter over the wire between two compounds, that you
arrived on a bicycle and beat the mother so severely that she was
lying on the ground where you kicked her?
A: I do not deny that I beat her, but I did not beat her until she
fell to the ground, and I did not kick her either.
Q: At Auschwitz did you wear a, belt with your uniform?
A: No. I wore the belt and the pistol together.
Q: Stein accused you of setting your dog on to her when you were on a
Kommando with the accused Lothe at Auschwitz?
A: I have never been with Lothe on an outside working party, and,
secondly, I never had a dog.
Q: Neiger in her deposition alleges that Appelle were from 0300 hours
to 0900 hours. At Auschwitz what was the light like at 0300 hours?
A: It was very dark. I never got up at 3 o'clock.
Q: Did you ever order the prisoners in your charge to stand holding a
large stone above their heads in each hand?
A: No. I must add that Katherine Neiger was not a single second in my
camp, and has never been in my camp.
Q: You have been accused of having shot a Hungarian Jewess outside one
of the blocks during the arrival of a transport. Is that true?
A: I do not deny that the woman had been shot, but I do deny that she
was shot by me. I do not know whether it is the same incident, but I
re-member in Camp "C" a woman was shot by a guard from a watch tower,
but whether it is the same woman I cannot say.
Q: Have you at Auschwitz ever been in charge of a Kommando working in
a sand-pit, and have you ever sent prisoners to cross a wire in order
to be shot?
A: Never.
Q: Will you tell the Court what the conditions at Belsen were like
when you arrived there at the beginning of March this year, and what
they were between then and the arrival of the British?
A: Transports arrived almost daily and the camp was very much
overcrowded. I was horrified because the prisoners were so dirty and
so ill. I had to attend the roll-call twice a week, and every time I
came back from the camp I felt horrified.
Q: One of the witnesses who, came here told of you "making sport" with
a Kommando for half an hour. If that is true, can you remember why you
did that?
A: Yes. I was in my office looking out of the window and saw a group
of kitchen workers coming back who were stopped by the Aufseherin. I
saw two parcels wrapped in paper thrown away and on looking at these I
found that each of them consisted of at least two pounds of meat from
the kitchen. I promised the Kommando that I would not report them or
do any harm to them if I was told who had thrown these parcels away.
They all kept silent and then I said, "Well, then, we have to make
sport until the person who has thrown these parcels away tells us
about it." We did this or about half hour, and then some of the
prisoners told us who had thrown these parcels away. I did not report
this incident as I thought they had been punished enough. I had no
riding whip and I did not beat them. I had seen this kind of
collective punishment before, but had not ordered it myself. Extra
parades and extra drills are 'a recognized form of punishment in the
German service.
Q: At Auschwitz, did you ever consult or plan with Kramer, Klein or
Hoessler as to who was to go to the gas chamber?
A: We never talked about these things. Kramer, Klein and Hoessler were
my superior officers, and if Kramer came into the camp I had to make
out my report as was my duty, and nothing else.
Q: Have you ever planned with Kramer or any other person now in the
dock to put to death in any way or to ill-treat deliberately any
person at Auschwitz?
A: No. I am not capable of making plans and I never made a plan to
kill prisoners.
Q: Have you ever planned with them the death or deliberate
ill-treatment of a prisoner at Belsen?
A: Never.
[cross-examonations begin with next posting]
Mike Curtis
Mike Curtis
>But back to Griese. Could you give me a precis of the testimony against her. How many
>people testified. Were they cross-examined?
>
>============================
*Grese Cross-examinations pages 253-261*
Cross-examined by Lieutenant JEDRZEJOWICZ - Was Dreschel the
Aufseherin who was in charge of the whole women's camp in Auschwitz,
and was she a severe woman?
A: Yes, very severe.
Q: Were the prisoners, Blockältesten and Lagerältesten afraid of her
in the same way?
A: Yes.
Q: Who was in a position to withhold food in Belsen Camp as a
punishment?
A: The Kommandant.
Q: Are you quite sure that the Blockältester or the Lagerältester was
not in a position, had no right, no power whatever to withhold food as
a punishment for his block or Lager?
A: Yes.
Twenty-seventh Day-Wednesday, 17th October, 1945
IRMA GRESE, cross-examined by Colonel BACKHOUSE -You said you went to
the hospital at Hohenluchen and wanted to be a nurse there. Was that
run by the S.S.?
A: When I was there it was a sports sanatorium. Later on it became
S.S.
Q: After you left there and went to work in this dairy what were you
paid?
A: 40 to 60 marks per month.
Q: What did you get at Ravensbrück?
A: 54 marks per month.
Q: Why did you get so much less than the others?
A: Because I was only 18.
Q: Is Ehlert right when she says it was terribly severe at Ravensbrück
A: Yes.
Q: There was a lot of beating of prisoners there, was there not?
A: I did not see it.
Q: An S.S. woman who did not behave badly to the prisoners was
punished or moved, was she not?
A: I do not know.
Q: At the end of your training at Ravensbrück when you went home and
told your father what you had been doing, did you quarrel with him and
did he turn you out of the house?
A: Yes.
Q: At Auschwitz when you were a telephone operator did you have to
take your turn in looking after the prisoners before they went out in
the morning and when they came back in the evening?
A: Yes.
Q:Were you not in charge of a Strafkommando out of the camp for a
great deal longer than you have told us?
A: No.
Q: You know Kopper quite well. Was she not at Auschwitz whilst you
Were there for a long time, and with you all the time you were at
Belsen?
A: Yes.
Q: She would hardly mistake you for somebody else, would she?
A: I do not know.
Q: Were you not in charge of a Strafkommando employed on working at a
sand-pit?
A: I explained already that I was in charge for two days of a
Strafkommando which was working in bringing in stones from outside the
camp, and that was a punishment for myself.
Q: I know what you told us, and I am suggesting you did not tell us
the truth. There was a great deal of sand brought into the camp, too,
for the road, was there not?
A: I do not know.
Q: You were with the Kommando that was building the roads; was there
not a lot of concrete used in that camp, and had not the roads got a
cement surface?
A: I do not know.
Q: Do you not know what the prisoners were doing when you were in
charge of the Kommando?
A: They were putting stones into the ground, and they were hammering
it in for the purpose of road-making.
Q: Is your story that you never saw the sand-pit true?
A: I have never seen it.
Q: I suggest to you that when you were at the sand-pit there was a
wire round it with guards at intervals, and that you used to amuse
yourself by sending women outside the wire so that they would be shot
by the guard?
A: No.
Q: I suggest to you that you gave evidence at an enquiry against a
guard who had refused to shoot people crossing the wire on the grounds
that you had sent them over deliberately?
A: You can think what you like, but it is a lie, and it is wrong.
Q: Do you remember two prisoners called Camina Stasika and Karola
Miket?
A: No.
Q: I suggest that both these women were in the same Konimando as the
accused Kopper, and that that was the Kommando working under your
direction in the sand-pit?
A: No.
Q: Where did the gardening Kommando that you say you were in charge of
work?
A: In the gardens belonging to the S.S. in Auschwitz No.1,
three-quarters of an hour's walk from Birkenau.
Q: Did the prisoners walk?
A: Yes.
Q: You had a bicycle at Birkenau, did you not ride it?
A: It was prohibited to use the bicycle for outside working parties.
Q: Did you not have a dog to guard these Kommandos?
A: No.
Q: They were trained to guard these Kommandos going out of the camp.
Why were you not allowed one?
A: I did not want to have one.
Q: Could you just please yourself what you did in this camp?
A: No.
Q: Let me put it to you that in fact you had a dog with you and when
you were marching the party along, the dog used to round up
stragglers?
A: I should know better whether I had a dog or not.
Q: Triszinska in her affidavit says that she was a member of your
Kommando for about five weeks, and that often they had to march about
15 kilometres to a place where they had to pick herbs for the kitchen.
Is that right?
A: No.
Q: Did you have any kitchen garden or vegetable garden for the camp?
A: Not in the camp. There were several kitchen gardens for the S.S.
which my Kommando looked after.
Q: Did they pick any herbs at all?
A: No.
Q: When you were with this Kommando did you carry a stick?
A: No, it was not necessary.
Q: I suggest to you that you used your stick to good purpose?
A: I say I never had a stick, with the exception of Camp "C."
Q: Did women sometimes have to be carried back to the camp by other
women?
A: On the contrary, the women working in my Kommando were very strong.
They were Russians, and there was no need at all to carry them back
into the camp.
Q: Why? Was that sometimes necessary with other women?
A: I never saw it.
Q: I suggest that Ilse Lothe was the Kapo working under you?
A: Never.
Q: And that when she complained about the witness Rozenwayg you set
your dog on Rozenwayg?
A: As I had no dog I could not set it upon Rozenwayg.
Q: You remember her giving evidence in the court and you remember
Watinik saying in her affidavit that she saw you set your dog on
Rozenwayg, who got bitten in the shoulder?
A: She might have seen that happen, a dog bite her shoulder, but I
never had a dog and I never set a dog upon anybody.
Q: I suggest this to you: that when you went out with these working
parties you made a habit of beating women and of kicking them, and you
enjoyed it?
A: And I say that you are badly informed about me, and that it is a
big lie.
Q: Your sister said that when you were a little girl you were
frightened to stand up for yourself, and you ran away to avoid a
fight. I now suggest to you that you found it great fun to hit
somebody who could not hit back?
A: No.
Q: Gertrud Diament in her deposition said that your favourite habit
was to beat women until they fell to the ground and then kick them as
hard as you could with your heavy boots?
A: That is a lie. Perhaps it is her habit to lie.
Q: You affected heavy top-boots and you liked to walk round with a
revolver strapped on your waist and a whip in your hand, did you not?
A: I did not like it.
Q: You thought it was very clever to have a whip made in the factory
and even when the Kommandant told you to stop using it you went on,
did you not?
A: Yes.
Q: What was this whip really made of?
A: Cellophane paper plaited like a pigtail. It was translucent like
white glass.
Q: The type of whip you would use for a horse?
A: Yes.
Q: Then most of these prisoners who said they saw you carrying a
riding whip were not far wrong, were they?
A: No, they were not wrong.
Q: Did the other Aufseherinnen have these whips made too?
A: No.
Q: It was just your bright idea?
A: Yes.
Q: In Lager "C" you used to carry a walking-stick, too, and sometimes
you beat people with the whip and sometimes with the stick?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you allowed to beat people?
A: No.
Q: So it was not a question of having orders from your superiors to do
it. You did this against orders, did you?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you the only person who beat prisoners against regulations?
A: I do not know.
Q: Did you ever see anyone else beat prisoners?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you sometimes get orders to do so?
A: No.
Q: Did you give orders to other Aufseherinnen working under you to
beat prisoners?
A: Yes.
Q: Had you the right to give such authorization?
A: No.
Q: You went to Lager "C" in May, 1944; is that the time the gassings
of the Hungarians began, when the transports were coming in day and
night?
A: Yes.
Q: The Kapos were Czechoslovaks, were they not?
A: Yes.
Q: That was the practice at Auschwitz, was it not, to have the
Aeltesten as far as possible of some other country?
A: No, it was nothing to do with that. Those Blockältesten I had in
my camp knew their jobs from previous times. The Hungarians arrived
1000 per block and they would not have known how to organize the whole
block.
Q: Nobody could organize a block which was meant to hold at the most
200 if you put 1000 into it without beds, could they?
A: This overcrowding was only for one or two weeks.
Q: Why? Were they killed off pretty quickly?
A: Those people who came tome in Camp "C" were all strong people, fit
for work and they went out on working parties.
Q: Was it not quite simple to know whether or not the selection was
for the gas chamber, because only Jews had to attend such selections?
A: I myself had only Jews in Camp "C."
Q: Then they would all have to attend the selection for the gas
chamber, would they not?
A: Yes.
Q: As you were told to wait for the doctors you would know perfectly
well what it was for?
A: No.
Q: When these people were parading they were very often paraded naked
and inspected like cattle to see whether they were fit to work or fit
to die, were they not?
A: Not like cattle.
Q: You were there keeping order, were you not, and if one ran away you
brought her back and gave her a beating?
A: Yes.
Q: Lebowitz in her affidavit says she often saw you with Dr. Mengele
selecting people for the gas chamber and for forced work in Germany,
and that if you saw relations trying to get together in selections for
forced work you beat them until they were unconscious and left them
lying on the ground. Is that true?
A: It is true that when they ran away I brought them back and I might
have beaten them, but it is imagination to say I have beaten them till
they lay on the ground or until they were bleeding or perhaps until
they were dead.
Q: The witness Ilona Stein said that prisoners that tried to escape
were shot if they got far, or were brought back and were terribly
beaten till they bled all over the place, and were put back in their
lines again. Is that true?
A: Why should one shoot people inside the camp. There is barbed wire
around the camp so they cannot escape.
Q: You remember an S.S. woman called Dreschel. As Rapportführerin did
she attend selections with Dr. Mengele and sometimes the Kommandant?
A: Yes.
Q: Stein said that on a particular occasion when Kramer, Dr. Mengele,
Dreschel and yourself were present at a selection, some prisoners
tried to hide and that you pointed them out to a guard, with the
result that one was killed and one was badly wounded?
A: I do not know. I have not seen it.
Q: Do you remember being on a selection in Camp "A"?
A: Never.
Q: There were selections in Camp "A," were there not?
A: Yes.
Q: Some Aufseherinnen must have been present, must they not?
A: I do not know.
Q: It would be very unusual to have a selection without an Aufseherin,
would it not?
A: No, on the contrary.
Q: Who would do all these duties on the selections if there were no
Aufseherinnen present?
A: As I was not interested in it I do not know.
Q: Then why do you say it would be unusual for an Aufseherin to be
present if you were not interested?
A: Because all the Aufseherinnen had their jobs with outside Kommandos
or in the administration office.
Q: Is that not just why you had to be brought in on occasions?
A: No.
Q: You would be the handiest person, of course, when you were in the
Blockführerin's room?
A: I had my duties; I was not allowed to leave the telephone.
Q: I suggest to you that on selection in Block 9, Camp "A," two girls
jumped out of the window and that you went up to them and shot them
whilst they lay on the ground?
A: No.
Q: When people were sent to the gas chamber, you entered that up in
your books as "special treatment" on instructions given by Dreschel.
Were you forbidden to speak outside the camp about such things?
A: I do not know whether it was allowed, but I know it was not
prohibited. It was already kept secret through the fact that you were
never allowed to leave the camp because it was closed on account of
typhus.
Q: Did you often keep prisoners as long as three and four hours on
Appelle?
A: Not so long-an hour, or perhaps it might have been two hours. When
I said before, three or four hours, that was an exception.
Q: And you made people stand still then, did you not?
A: Of course.
Q: If they moved they were beaten, were they not?
A: That is nonsense. I do not say that they were not allowed to move.
Q: If people did not behave as you wanted them to on Appelle, did you
sometimes make them kneel?
A: Yes.
Q: On other occasions did you not make some people hold stones above
their heads?
A: No, that is imagination. I have seen other people doing it.
Q: Who made them do that?
A: I do not know. I have never -seen it in "C" Lager.
Q: I suggest that if any of these internees did not stand still on the
Appell you either made them kneel or hold stones above their heads for
a long time, and if they faltered you beat them?
A: No.
Q: In her affidavit, Dunklemann said you had your hair up at the back?
A: I did not wear my hair in that way at all. I had a sort of drum of
pigtails, and that was quite low on the neck.
Q: This new hair style with the curls hanging down is something new
since you left Belsen, is it not?
A: Yes, that originated in the prison in Celle.
Q: Ehlert used to wear her hair down at the back and she has put it up
since she came here. Of course it is not as easy to recognize people
when you come and look at them in the dock if they have changed their
hair style completely, is it?
A: The face is always the same.
Q: Do you think that Ehlert looks now as she looked at Belsen?
A: Slightly different.
Q: Several witnesses in their depositions say that you were the worst
S.S. woman in the camp?
A: Yes, they say so. They are all lying. These people exaggerated and
made an elephant out of a small fly.
Q:You did get rather rapid promotion for a young girl, did you not?
A: No.
Q: From a girl in the dairy to being in charge of 30,000 women in a
matter of two years is pretty rapid promotion, is it not?
A: That had nothing to do with the dairy.
Q: Were you not specially chosen for "C" Lager when they began to gas
the Hungarians?
A: No. There were very few Aufseherinnen, and as the Post Office
Censor Department was closed I had no particular duty.
Q: Was it on the strength of that appointment that you thought it
would be a bright idea to carry a whip round with you?
A: When I carried a whip I was not promoted at all. I was promoted on
Ist January, 1945, after having left Birkenau.
Q: Were you promoted as a reward for your services in liquidating Camp
"C"?
A: Camp "C" was not liquidated, it was transferred into Camp "A."
Q: Do you or do you not remember the incident when a mother was trying
to talk to her daughter across the wire and you beat her till she fell
to the ground?
A: No.
Q: Have you beaten so many women that you cannot remember whether it
happened or not?
A: I do not remember this incident, and I did not beat so many women
that I would not be able to remember.
Q: The witness Ilona Stein speaks of an incident when you kicked her
too. I suggest to you that you regularly kicked people and it was all
part and parcel of this business of swaggering around in top-boots?
A: I would like to know who has seen me swaggering in the camp. I have
never kicked anyone with my foot.
Q: When you arrived at Belsen with a transport, did you ask Kramer if
you could stay and then he applied for you and you stayed?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you Arbeitsführerin, and was it part of your duty to stand at
the gate when the working patties were going out and coming in?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you not regularly beat people at that gate?
A: I would like to ask you to leave out this word "regularly." I have
never beaten prisoners at the gate.
Q: Did you regularly carry your whip at Belsen?
A: No.
Q: What did you do during the day after the working parties had gone
out and before they came back in the evening?
A: I went with my working party into the wood to look for material for
preparing wreaths for the S.S. people who were dying in great numbers
from typhus. I also saw to it that the camp should be neat and tidy.
Q: You used to go round inspecting the camp, did you not?
A: No.
Q: Then how did you see whether it was neat and tidy?
A: I was mostly concerned with the gardens and ornaments in front of
the kitchen, and told the prisoners what to do. I did not bother about
the cleanliness or tidiness of the camp because there were others
responsible for those things.
Q: I suggest to you that you carried on at Belsen just as you had done
at Auschwitz, beating, kicking and making people kneel and making
people hold stones over their heads?
A: No. Only once I gave orders to a kitchen working party to do some
sport, but, of course, without holding stones in their hands.
Q: Did you not make one Kommando do sport for half an hour because one
of the girls dropped a piece of rag as they were marching in from
work?
A: No. It was because somebody threw two parcels away, each containing
3 lb. of meat.
Q: Did you realize that people were dying all around you at Belsen?
A: Of course I realized it.
Q: Did you realize the amount of food that these prisoners were
getting, and did you think that that was a proper way to treat them?
A: No.
Q: Your sister told us at the beginning that you were a little coward
when you were a little girl. Is it not true that your tried to curry
favour with the prisoners when you knew that the British were coming?
A: No, never.
Q: You had always treated them very severely, had you not?
A: Yes.
Q: But the last few days was quite a different story, and you tried to
mix with the prisoners?
A: Why should I?
Q: Do you remember saying to the witness Lasker, "It will soon be the
end, and we will be liberated"?
A: I have never spoken to Anita Lasker at all.
Q: Let me just put this finally to you, that you went into the
Concentration Camp Service as a frightened young girl, according to
your sister a cowardly little girl, and found yourself for the first
time in a position to strike people when they could not strike you
back?
A: Yes, it might have been that I was frightened as a child, but I
grew up in the meantime.
Q: I suggest to you that you gloried in your jackboots and your pistol
and your whip?
A: Gloried? I could not say so.
Q: And that you beat and ill-treated prisoners to such an extent that
even you were told to stop carrying a whip, and that you continued to
do it?
A: I have beaten prisoners, but I have not ill-treated them, and it
was not prohibited for me personally to carry a whip. It was a general
order emanating from the Kommandant that whips would not be carried
any more.
Q: And I suggest to you that when you got to Belsen you asked to be
allowed to stay there and continue your conduct right up to the time
that you knew the British were coming into the camp?
A: If I had wanted to continue this behaviour I would not have needed
to ask permission to stay in Belsen. I could have continued to do so
in the other camps. It was for quite a different reason.
Re-examined by Major CRANFIELD - Were your jackboots issued to you
with your uniform, and did all the Aufseherinnen at Auschwitz wear
them?
A: Yes.
Q: Was your revolver at Auschwitz an issue, and were you ordered to
wear it?
A: Yes, we were told it was for self-protection.
Q: Were you told against whom it was to protect you?
A: Yes, against the Partisans.
Q: Will you tell the Court why you asked Kramer to let you stay at
Belsen?
A: It is a private affair. I got to know an S.S. man in Auschwitz who
was transferred to Belsen, and that is the reason why I wanted to
stay.
By the JUDGE ADVOCATE - In Belsen did you ever take part in what you
called "making sport"?
A: I myself made sport with the prisoners.
Q: It was rather strenuous for the prisoners, was it not?
A: Yes.
Q: Were there people in Belsen in March and April who were fit to do
that strenuous kind of exercise?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you the youngest of the Aufseherinnen or not?
A: I was the youngest in Auschwitz.
[End of Grese's live testimony]
Mike Curtis
Mike Curtis
>But back to Griese. Could you give me a precis of the testimony against her. How many
>people testified. Were they cross-examined?
>
>============================
EVIDENCE FOR THE DEFENDANT ILSE LOTHE (page 267-
ILSE LOTHE, sworn, examined by Major Cranfield - I am unmarried and
was born on 6th November, 1914, in Erfurt. I worked in a shoe factory
and in 1939 was directed to a munitions factory, and because I refused
to go there I was sent to Ravensbrück Concentration Camp, where I
stayed until March, 1942, when I was transferred to Auschwitz No.1.
After four weeks I was put in an outside Kommando at Budin, seven
kilometres from Auschwitz, where we did all sorts of digging,
constructing a dam. In June, 1943, I went to Birkenau, where I worked
in the camp until February, 1944, when I became a Kapo in Kommando
No.6, which consisted of 100 Hungarian Jewesses. After four months the
Kommando was dissolved and I got another consisting of 50 Hungarian
Jewesses, building bunkers in prepared positions for guns. In
November, 1944, 1 got another Kommando, No.107, Water Works. In
December the Kommandant took away my armlet and put me in a punishment
Kommando called Vistula. I was no longer a Kapo. I was in that
punishment Kommando until January, 194S, when we went to Ravensbrück
for four weeks. In the beginning of March a transport of pregnant
women was sent to Belsen and I went with them, arriving there on the
4th. For three weeks I was ill and then I became a Kapo in the
vegetable Kommando, consisting mostly of Russians, with a few
Hungarian and Polish Jewesses. There were about 140 in the Kommando.
Q: How did you come to be appointed a Kapo first of all in February,
1944?
A: We were on parade in the morning and the Arbeitsdienstführer went
along looking at us and suddenly said, "You will take over from
tomorrow on this Kommando." That is how I became a Kapo, and I could
not do anything about it. There was no question about asking or
refusing because if we had done so it would have amounted to refusing
work and that meant 25 strokes.
Q: Did you at Auschwitz carry any kind of a weapon or a stick?
A: No, nor have I ever beaten anybody with a stick, but sometimes I
slapped their faces during distribution of food to keep order.
Q: Have you ever knocked a woman down and kicked her on the ground,
either at Auschwitz or at Belsen?
A: No.
[ . . . ]
Q: Have you been punished by the Political Department at Auschwitz
A: Yes, three times. The first time because I smuggled a letter out of
the camp. The second because I burnt the boards of the beds--I made a
fire of them. And the third because we organized some food and
cigarettes. The first time I got 25 strokes done in this way: a block
was placed between my knees and my two hands were tied, and I was
swung to and fro and beaten from both sides as I swung from one side
to the other. I was beaten with a rubber truncheon by two S.S. men. I
have heard of other Kapos being punished in this way.
Q: Was this the official punishment for misbehaviour?
A: In the beginning Berlin was asked and gave the decision. Later on
we did not bother to ask Berlin for it, and the Political Department
itself made the decision and did what they liked.
[ . . . ]
Q: Have you ever been out of camp with your Kommando with the accused
Grese?
A: I have never worked in the same Kommando with Grese. When I took my
Kommando out to work there were two male S.S. guards.
Q: Rozenwayg said that on a Kommando you told the accused Grese to set
a dog on to her, and the dog then bit her. Is that true?
A: Completely untrue. First she gave the date as July, 1943, before I
had ever thought of becoming a Kapo at all. Secondly, I have never
worked with Grese in the same Kommando; and thirdly, if Rozenwayg had
ever worked in my Kommando I would certainly have recognized her. Nor
did I hit a girl called Wiedletz as she says.
[ . . . ]
A: I never had a stick and never beat anyone like that. Nobody had to
go because of me into Block No.25.
[ . . . ]
Cross-examined by Colonel BACKHOUSE
Q: When you first went to Ravensbrück how were you treated?
A: We were treated very badly. There was not very much beating, but
the Aufseherinnen who had working parties outside the camp used to set
the dogs on us. Each Aufseherin had a dog and a pistol.
[ . . . ]
Q: You told us of the first punishment you got. What did you get for
burning the bed boards?
A: I was put under arrest first in a cell, and received food every
third day. I was there eight days and then I was taken to the
Political Department where I received my 25 strokes. I had no kind of
trial.
Q: What about the third time when you were punished for organizing
some food and cigarettes?
A: I was brought to the Political Department who made enquiries as to
how and where I got the food and cigarettes, and then I was punished
with 25 strokes because I bartered with civilians.
Q: In Birkenan were people beaten by both Aufseherinnen and Kapos
A: Yes.
Q: Was Grese there then?
A: I saw Grese only when she was talking to somebody at the gate.
Q: Were your Kommandos not composed of Hungarian Jewesses all the time
you were a Kapo, and was not Grese in charge of the camp in which
these Hungarians were?
A: Grese was in Camp "C." We were in Camp "B."
Q: As a matter of fact, were you not a Kapo in the Strafkommando which
was commanded by her for a time? Did you not work under her and did
you not beat people severely yourself?
A: I have never worked with Grese there.
[ . . . ]
Q: I suggest to you that you are not telling the truth about this at
all, that in fact you worked with Grese, and those girls were under
you, and that you did in fact complain to Grese on one occasion when
she set her dog on one of them?
A: I have never been working with Grese, and was never in that
Kommando.
**
HILDE LOHBAUER, sworn, examined by Major CRANHELD - I was born on 8th
November, 1918, at Planen, Saxony, and am unmarried. In 1940 I was
working in a weaving factory and because I refused to go to an
ammunition factory at Württemburg I was sent to Ravensbrück
Concentration Camp, where I stayed until March, 1942, when I was
transferred to Auschwitz. For four weeks I was in Auschwitz No. I and
later on in Birkenau until January 1, 1945. I was in the same party as
Ilse Lothe. On leaving Birkenau I went to Ravensbrück, stayed there
for four weeks and then accompanied a transport to Belsen, where I
arrived in March, again with Lothe.
Q: How were you employed in Birkenau?
A: In the beginning I was a prisoner like all the others. About the
beginning of 1944 I was ordered to be an Arbeitsdienstführerin and
worked in Compounds "A" and "B,, in the women's camp. When working
parties marched out to their respective works I had to stand at the
gate, count them, and see how many went out. The same process happened
when they came back at night. I had also to see to it that the working
parties inside the camp really worked and did their jobs, and apart
from that I had to ensure that the camp was tidy and clean. I got my
orders from Lagerfüthrer Mendel and Arbeitsdienstführerin Hasse in
Auschwitz, and gave my orders to the Kapos, of whom there were about
30.
Q: What was your position at Belsen?
A: When I arrived I fell ill, and when I was all right again
Kommandant Kramer made me Arbeitsdienstführerin again. My duties were
the same as at Auschwitz, but the work-ing parties were not so big.
Q: In Auschwitz did you carry a stick?
A: -In the beginning, yes, a wooden stick. I did not carry a stick at
Belsen.
Q: Did you at any time carry a rubber truncheon or whip?
A: No.
Q: Did you strike prisoners with your stick?
A: Sometimes, yes. For example, if a working party of perhaps 100 had
to fall in and two were missing I got punished by my superiors, so
when I found those who were missing I beat them. I have never beaten a
prisoner without reason.
Q: Have you ever beaten a prisoner so that she was in a dying
condition, or that she fell to the ground senseless?
A: I would never have dared to do that because I as a prisoner, would
have been reported at once, and would have beer' punished by being
sent into the bunker. Such things simply did not exist.
Q: Have you ever been punished by the Political Department?
A: Yes, 15 strokes. I had to go to the C.R.S. for four weeks, and I
still have the scars. I lost consciousness. This was before I became
Arbeitsdienstführerin.
Q: You knew Ilse Lothe well at Auschwitz; did you know about the
beatings she received, and is it true that she received those while
she was a Kapo and still remained a Kapo?
A: Yes. There was nothing extra-ordinary in that because in spite of
the beatings one stayed on in the rank of Kapo.
Q: Did you attend the parades at which a doctor picked out the fit or
the unfit?
A: Yes. When there were Appelle to pick out working parties, for
instance for the kitchen, there was also a doctor there to see that
these prisoners were healthy and clean. My duty was to take the
numbers of those who were selected for this work. When these parties
started work about 50 or 100 more always appeared and that is why I
had to take the numbers of those who had been selected.
Q: If after a parade a party was sent to Block 25 had you any duties
with regard to that?
A: That was a definite kind of parade. Prisoners had nothing to do
with that kind of parade. We knew, of course, that Block 25 meant that
people were being sent into the gas chambers, but we prisoners had
nothing to do with it.
Q: I want you to look at the statement you made to a British officer.
Is that what you said when you made your statement?
A: No. Paragraph 3, which says that the punishment was carried out by
two fellow prisoners, is wrong. S.S. men gave the punishment. In
paragraph 5 it says that I have seen these people beating and
ill-treating prisoners, and I considered that Gertrud Fiest, Sauer,
Bothe and Weingartner should be punished. I was asked whether I saw
that they were beating prisoners and said yes, and I was asked how
they should be punished and my answer was I, as a prisoner, cannot
really say what sort of punishment they should have meted out.
Q: Was your statement read over to you in German, and were the
mistakes pointed out?
A: Yes, the officer who made the enquiries told me that it would be
changed.
Q: You have been accused in the affidavit of Triszinska of chasing
selected for the gas chambers into the lorries. Is that true?
A: No. Once I was in Block 25 and we had to load the bodies on the
trucks on that occasion.
Q: Have you ever, at Auschwitz, picked out a prisoner and sent her to
the gas chamber?
A: No. Prisoners had no right to do such a thing.
Q: Are the accounts of excessive beatings given in the affidavits of
Weiss and Trieger true?
A: No.
Q: Elisabeth Herbst in her deposition states that in Auschwitz a party
of women being marched to work were near a ditch half-full with water,
with an electrified barbed wire surround, and that she saw in the
ditch and struggling in the water between 10 and 20 women, as well as
about 10 dead bodies. She states that you had a long pole which one of
the women grasped, and that you pulled her half-way out and then
pushed her back again into the water with a downward thrust. Is
that true?
A: No, I do not remember; and in August, 1942, when this was alleged
to have happened, I was in hospital with typhus.
Q: Have you ever been at that ditch when there were women struggling
in the water, or have you ever pushed any woman into that ditch so
that she drowned?
A: No. I know that ditch and it was not so deep that anybody could
have been drowned in it.
Cross-examined by Colonel BACKHOUSE - Before you became
Arbeitsdienstführerin in charge of the Kapos you were yourself a Kapo?
A: Yes, for four weeks, but I lost that job because I was not severe
enough towards the prisoners. It was about November or December, 1942.
Q: Why have you not told anybody before that you were a Kapo?
A: Because it was only for four weeks.
Q: When you were a Kapo, what was your duty?
A: I had to see to it that everything was all right inside the camp.
Q: Had these parades or selections for the gas chamber got anything to
do with the ones you were telling us you went on to select working
parties?
A: No.
Q: How did you know which was which?
A: If parades were for the purpose of working parties, kitchens and so
on, then there was no pro-hibition to leave the blocks. But in the
case of selection parades it was the strictest order not to leave.
Q: You got a definite order if it was a selection for the gas chamber?
A: Yes.
Q: When there was such a selection did not a Kapo attend?
A: No.
Q: Did she not, in fact, have to take down the numbers of the
prisoners selected?
A: No, that was the duty of the clerk.
Q: Who marched the prisoners selected off to Block 25?
A: The S.S. men.
Q: I am suggesting that one of your duties when you were Kapo was
taking these women to Block 25 and helping to see that they did not
run away?
A: No. During selections no prisoner was allowed to be present.
Q: As a matter of fact, was not one of the prisoners told to stand at
the door to see that people did not run out?
A: Yes. But that is nothing to do with the Kapo. That might have been
the Blockältester.
Q: When you became Arbeitsdienstführerin one of your duties during the
day was to go round inside the camp to see that the people kept the
camp tidy and that those who were working inside got on with their
work?
A: My job was only just to pass on and see whether the Kapo was there
and was doing her duty.
Q: But if you saw somebody not working properly, did you not beat
them?
A: - I had nothing to do with that; that was the responsibility of the
Kapo in charge.
Q: If you saw a prisoner where you thought she ought not to be, did
you not beat her?
A: I had nothing to do with where she was.
Q: You had exactly the same duties to do at Belsen. Why then did you
beat Miriam Weiss when she came out of her block if it had nothing to
do with you?
A: If there was a strict order to stay in the blocks, I might have
beaten the prisoner; but whether it was Miriam Weiss or not I do not
know. That was an order which was given either by the Oberaufseherin
or by the Arbeitsdienstführerin who probably saw that prisoner walking
about and told me to see that she disappeared.
Q: When you first got to Auschwitz, how were you treated?
A: Badly by the Aufseherinnen. For instance, when I was working on an
outside Kommando and we relaxed just for a moment or two, the
Aufseherinnen came and beat us.
Q: Was that a regular practice and was that how concentration camps
were carried on?
A: Yes.
Q: What did the Aufseherinnen beat you with?
A: With their hands. Some of them ran about with a whip in Auschwitz,
but I had nothing to do with them.
Q: I expect you kept away from them as far as you could?
A: Naturally.
Q: Did the Kapos never beat anyone?
A: I do not know. I had never been with the Kapos on an outside job,
but I suggest if the prisoners did not do what they were told to do
then they might have been beaten.
Q: That was part of the S.S. system, was it not, to make Kapos slap
other prisoners?
A: Of course, they were forced to do so.
Q: When you were Arbeitsdienstführerin you carried this stick about
with you and you beat people with it, did you not?
A: Yes, but not so that they were bleeding.
Q: One of the girls who had you arrested, Jasinka, has said that she
saw you help in the selection of persons to go into the gas chamber,
and I suggest to you again that one of your duties as Kapo was to
attend these selections or parades?
A: And I repeat that I have been in camps for five years, but I have
never been present at these selections.
Q: You were known as the S.S. woman without a uniform?
A: I do not know.
Q: You stood at the gate of the camp when the Arbeitskommandos were
coming in. Did you search the prisoners?
A: No. I myself had never the right to make a search.
Q: What happened to prisoners who were found to have anything on them?
A: It was taken away from them and they had to kneel at the gate
sometimes for an hour.
Q: Making people kneel was a popular punishment in concentration
camps, was it not?
A: Yes.
Q: Or making people stand with their hands above their heads with a
stone in their hands?
A: We had to do that during parades, but without stones.
Q: Did the ditch which Herbst talked about run round the camp, and was
it to prevent people from escaping?
A: Yes.
Q: Are you really suggesting it was not deep enough to drown anyone
in?
A: No. This ditch was rather as a sort of protection that one should
not approach the barbeb wire which was loaded.
Q: Do you remember a Kapo called Krause?
A: Yes. I know she is still alive and has been released from
Auschwitz.
Q: Is it true that there were women in that ditch trying to get out,
and you were amusing yourself by pulling them half-way out on your
pole and then pushing them back again?
A: No, that is not true. If a prisoner had dared to do such a thing,
whether they were Germans, Poles, or Jews, they would have been
liquidated at once.
Q: But if the S.S. were there amusing themselves and watching you do
it and encouraging you, that would be a different matter would it not?
A: Such a thing did not exist. They would not have allowed prisoners
to stand there and look at them. Nor would they have allowed prisoners
to do it.
Q: Some of the senior Kapos who played the S.S. game got quite
friendly with some of the S.S., did they not?
A: I rather doubt that there were any Kapos who collaborated to such
an extent with the S.S. On the contrary, I think that the Kapos got
more beatings than the other prisoners.
Q: Was the type of punishment that you and Lothe had quite a common
thing?
A: Not so very frequent. If somebody reported us then that went to
the Political Department and there we got our beating.
Q: Who was in charge of the transport of women that you went with to
Belsen?
A: Ehlert.
Q: She told us that she went to Ravensbrück particularly to get some
Kapos. You and Lothe were two she chose, were you not?
A: No. She came and took Bormann and Grese with her. For those 35
pregnant women 10 of us were chosen to go with them and to take care
of them. I believe Bormann had some personal belongings still in
Ravensbrück, and on their return they took Grese with them; so that
the reason that they came to Ravensbrjick is not really that they
wanted some prisoners who had some functions.
Q: Did Ehlert come specially to pick up what she called
"functionaries" -Blockätesten, Arbeitsdienstführerinnen, Kapo -- did
she not?
A: No. She took us only so that we should take care of her personal
belongings, because the women were not able to carry these very heavy
trunks of hers. We were the only ones lefi and that is the reason why
they took us with them.
Q: At Belsen I suggest to you that you carried on just as you had done
at Auschwitz, regularly heating and ill4reating women?
A: That is not true.
Q: Do you agree with the affidavit of Trieger, who says that you
frequently beat women prisoners, sometimes with your hands and
sometimes with a wooden stick?
A: Yes, with my hands, but not with a stick.
Q: Have you beaten people with a stick, or have you not?
A: Yes.
Q: Daily?
A: No.
Q: During the day-time, after selecting the working parties, did you
not patrol around the camp?
A: Sometimes I was sitting in the office, and sometimes I was
controlling the Kapos.
Q: I suggest to you that the sole reason that you and Lothe were sent
for and taken to Belsen was because you had fallen in with this
practice of ill-treating prisoners so successfully at Auschwitz?
A: No. The reason we were taken to Belsen was to take care of the
trunks and the parcels and also to take care of the pregnant women,
but not to continue to beat prisoners.
Re-examined by Major CRANFIELD - Where was the Political Depart-ment
at Auschwitz?
A: Auschwitz No. I.
Q: What was the Political Department's punishment for both men and
women prisoners?
A: As far as I can remember it was the same. Punishments were blows
with a stick, reduced food rations, standing to attention for a time,
and kneeling down. It was a regular scale commonly known throughout
the camp.
Q: Did your working parties in Camps A" and "B" at Birkenau live in
the camp?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know anything about the working parties which lived outside
the camp?
A: I only know there were outside Kommandos called Budy and Vistula
and some other names.
Q: Do you know anything about working parties which went away to work
in another part of Germany or Poland?
A: I know that many people left the camp to go for work in other parts
of the country.
Q: Do you know anything to do with that kind of working party?
A: Now and then I was present to select the people for these
Kommandos.
Q: If there was not a working party for you would you attend the
selection parade?
A: No, never, because the prisoners had to stay in their blocks then
and I was a prisoner as well.
By a Member of the Court - You say that you assisted in loading bodies
from Block 25 once. Were the bodies alive or dead?
A: They were dead bodies
Q: What was the highest appointment that a functionary prisoner could
hold?
A: Lagerältester.
Q: Did they all wear armbands according to the appointment that they
held?
A: Yes.
Mike Curtis
Debunks
>Date: 12/15/98 11:42 AM EST
>Message-id: <36769124...@news.sig.net>
>
>
>>But back to Griese. Could you give me a precis of the testimony against her.
>How many
>>people testified. Were they cross-examined?
>
>mentioned much so far. But this exchange is important.]
>
>Q: Was it the Aufseherinnen and the Kapos who ordered the women on
>parade and produced them in lines?
>
>A: No, on the orders of the Aufseherin, that is the Chief Supervisor;
>the Blockaeltesten were responsible for those Appelle and they lined
>them up.
>
>Q: Were only Jews sent to the gas chamber?
>
>A: During the time I spent in the women's camp only Jews were sent to
>the gas chamber. when I was there I was told that there was a camp for
>gipsies and they were also sent to the gas chamber.
>
>[Redirect by Backhouse the prosecution begins on page 78.]
>
>Q: With regards to these different parades, were there regular parades
>for roll-call every day?
>
>A: Every day twice.
>
>she was Jewish.]
>
>Read the followups, Richard.
>
>
>
>Mike Curtis
>
I notice yo didn't post that portion of her testimony where she claims that 4
million Jews were gassed to death at Auschwitz.
Yale F. Edeiken
> > > On the subject of Irma Griese, I'm not very passionate, one way or another,
> > > but I would like to know this: Can it be definitely established whether any
> > > acts she is alleged to have committed would be punishable by death in America.
> > Yes, Dickie da Liar, it can. Murder in the first degree is punishable by
> > death in many states in the U.S. Didn't we already go through this once?
> Murder in the FIRST degree. Now that sounds just a bit odd to me, given the
> circumstances there. It is saying that Griese PLANNED IN ADVANCE to murder a
> particular inmate. Such a charge would NOT be applicable to her having killed
> someone in a momentary fit of exasperation, much less to her having killed someone
> in self-defence. So let me ask you a few embarassing questions:
Your version of the law is incorrect. "Felony murder" is capital murder. A
deliberate use of deadly force can be as well (the classic law school example is someone who
fires a gun at a school bus.) even if there is no intent to kill.
> (1) Was a specific charge of murder IN THE FIRST DEGREE made at her trial?
What's embarassing about that. Since it was the charge for which she was
convicted, it would have to be.
> (2) Were there witnesses who saw the act and who testifired that it was done in a
> deliberate and cold-blooded manner; that is, not in a moment of rage or fear?
Irrelevant.
> (3) What reasons wree advanced why she should have DELIBERATELY PLOTTED IN
ADVANCE the murder of some particular inmate.
Irrelevant.
> I am asssuming of course that the trials were conducted in some measure of
> conformity with Anglo-Saxon legal tradition - y es?
Of course it was. Now read up on those traditions. Start with the "felony murder"
rule.
Yale F. Edeiken
> >Message-id: <mvanalst-141...@c678496-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com>
> >In article <367567C2...@earthlink.net>, Richard Phillips
> ><rgp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >[snip]
> >> On the subject of Irma Griese, I'm not very passionate, one way or another,
> >> but I would like to know this: Can it be definitely established whether any
> >> acts she is alleged to have committed would be punishable by death in
> >America.
> >Yes, Dickie da Liar, it can. Murder in the first degree is punishable by
> >death in many states in the U.S. Didn't we already go through this once?
> He is waiting for you to prove the claims.
Jew-hating Joe fails. once more, to comprehend the Anglo-Saxon tradition of
jurisprudence. Since the trial was held by a court of legitimate jurisdiction, the burden is
upon him to present some evidence that the verdict was the result of bias, mistake or
corruption.
As he has repeatedly proved, he cannot do so.
"hello? antone out there 12-14 e-mail me. i am thirteen and . .
.well if you e-mail me at jbel...@sprynet.com you can find out more about me i
am a female."
Yale F. Edeiken
> >A: Every day twice.
> >Read the followups, Richard.
> I notice yo didn't post that portion of her testimony where she claims that 4
> million Jews were gassed to death at Auschwitz.
I noticed that you failed to deal with the overwhelming testimony which
proved that the object of your infatuation was a murderess.
Yale F. Edeiken
Debunks
>Message-id: <36789211...@news.sig.net>
>[The next witness is Abraham Glinowieski who is under examination from
>Colonel
>>Backhouse, the prosecutor which begins on page 103.]
>A: I come from Plonsk in Poland, was arrested in 1942, and sent to
>Auschwitz, where I stayed until either October or November, 1944,
>after which I was in one or two other places and eventually arrived in
>Belsen about two and a half month before the camp was liberated.
Note that ABe does not state WHY he was arrested, nor was he asked.
>
>[He points out no.9 Grese as one among many defendants he recognizes.]
>
Defendants were all shown photos of the accused prior and during interrogation,
and witnesses were allowed to consult with one another.
>
>A: Accused No. 11 (Hilde Lobauer) was a Lager Kapo\
In other words, she was one of those who tormented the prisoners. KAPOS were
the REAL power and authority in the camps, as they had complete control over
the lives of the inmates under their charge. It was they, more than others,
who beat, tormented, stole from, and intimidated their fellow-prisoners. Most
KAPOS had been career criminals in real life, and most of the KAPOS were set
free by the Belsen court!
in Auschwitz and
>assisted in transporting people to the crematorium. She helped prevent
>people from escaping or hiding. Grese was the camp leader in Camp C. I
>saw her every day, and when the transports from Hungary arrived she
>sent thousands and thousands of people, ill and in quite good health,
>to the gas chambers
Neither Grese nor any other Matron was allowed to make selections, which was
the task of Physicians.
She used to come on inspections to the respective
>blocks and, according to her whims, she beat people with a stick if
>she disliked them. She also carried a pistol. . . . .
This does not support a charge of first degree murder.
>
>[Cross Examination by Major Cranfield who was Grese's council begins
>page 106:]
>
>Q: Have you ever been on a selection parade yourself?
>
>A: I was present at each of them.
>
>Q: Were these parades always formed up the same way?
>
>A: Yes. The prisoners were fromed up in ranks of five.
>
>Q: Is it correct that S. S. personnel, Kapos, Blockaeltesten and
>blockleaders all assisted in getting the prisoners fromed up on
>parade?
>
>A: Only S.S. and Lager Kapos were present.
>
>Q: When you were told to get on parade were you told what the parade
>was for -- a roll-call, working party, gas chamber selection or what?
>
>A: We were not told anything. It was quite evident that the people
>selected on the parade had been sent to the gas chamber, because at
>night the trucks came in, the women wew loaded naked and they shouted
>and cried.
This is no proof of homicide or gas chambers. Othe rinmates have shown that
these could have been simple transfers to other barracks or facilities.
>Q: It was quite evident after the parade, but you did not know before
>it?
>
>A: Yes, we all knew what was the purpose of the parade. The camp
>doctor arrived and that was the best proof to us.
Well, that is not proof to us. We need verifiable evidence to support these
wild speculations.
>>>[The next witness is Lidia Sunschein who is under examination from Colonel
>>>Backhouse, the prosecutor which begins on page 116.]
>
>A: I am a Polish Jewess aged 23, from Lodz, was sent to Auschwitz in
>March 1943, and transferred to Belsen in January, 1945.
You mean she wasn't gassed? Why? They didn't need her for labor any longer.
>
>Q: Would you tell us about the other persons you recognized?
>
>A: Bormann, I remember at Auschwitz. She was always with her dog and
>people were terrorized when she came.
Yesm, terrorized of this 50 year old woman, about 4'10" tall and wighing about
as much as a girl 12 years old! And that toothless old hound dog of hers!
What a laugh.
>Volkenrath was in the parcel
>department in Auschwitz.
Is that how she "shipped" inmates to the "gas chambers?"
>I used to go to her store to get bread and I
>have seen her beat people when she suspected them of having stolen
>something.
EXACTLY! These thieves were stealing from their fellow ionmates. They were
lucky to get off with an Ohrfeige. If the inmates had caught them they would
have been killed.
>Ehlert was always at the gate at Belsen when Kommandos were
>going to work. She beat the prisoners for things like having a scarf
>done improperly or boolaves wrongly made up.
What has this to do with GRese?
>She hit people mainly
>with her hands. I can say little about Grese at Auschwitz,
In other words, nothing.
>ut in
>Belsen, where she was Arbeitsdienstfuehrerin, she behaved very badly.
That is NOT what fania fenelon says.
>One one occasion, when our Kommando was coming back from work, one of
>the girls lost a piece of rag from her pocket. As a punishment the
>accused made the whole Kommando run up and down kneeling and rising
>for about half an hour. . .
What was IN that "rag", I wonder? Punishments were given for specific
violations, as in any prison.
>ross-examined by Major Cranfield: Were the dogs at Auschwitz trained
>police dogs?
>
>A: I suppose so, because they used to bite the women and tear pieces
>of flesh.
What flesh? I though they were all emaciated?
>
>Q: Did you see any S.S. women other than Bormann with these police
>dogs?
>
>A: In 1945 I saw many women other than Bormann with dogs, but when
>Bormann was there only one or two beside her.
>
>Q: Have you ever seen Grese at Auschwitz with one of these police
>dogs?
>
>A: No.
>
>>[The next witness is Helen Klein who is under examination from Colonel
>>>Backhouse, the prosecutor which begins on page 127.]
>
>: I am a Jewess from Tarnow Poland and was arrested December, 1942,
>when I was 18 years of age.
WHY?
>was first sent to a labour camp and then
>to Auschwitz in November, 1943. At the railway station a selection was
>made and of 1200 women only 407 were left, the remainder being sent to
>gas chambers. . . .
How would she know this? Did the SS tell her that?
>[She recognizes several of the accused including No. 9, Irma Grese]
>
>Q: Tell us what you know of the others you recognize?
>
>
>A: . . .Irma Grese I saw beating people, but apart from thatshe made a
>kind of sport with us in Belsen
No support for 1st degree murder,
>If anybody stopped she beat them with a
>riding-whip which she always had with her. . . . .
>
Does not sustain a charge of Murder 1.
>Cross-Examined by Major Cranfield: Have you been told about Kramer's
>misdeeds by other witnesses for the prosecution?
>
>A: No.
>
>Q: Have they told you about Irma Grese?
>
>A: I did not need anybody to tell me anything, because I went through
>it myself.
>
>Q: Will you tell us of what this sport consisted?
>
>A: It was falling down and getting up and crawling, and the speed was
>increased all the time. We were marched in and had to do it in fives
>and Grese stood in front giving words of command.
No support for Murder 1.
>
>Q: You said she inflicted various kinds of tortures on you. Are these
>words not a deliberate exaggeration?
>
>A: My evidence is based only on what I saw myself and what I
>experienced. She was constantly beating us.
>
And yet you are alive.
>
>Q: You say Grese carried a riding-whip. Was that at Auschwitz or at
>Belsen?
>
>A: Mainly in Belsen that she usually beat people with the whip, but
>also in Auschwitz.
>
>Q: Was she wearing a pistol at Belsen?
>
>A: I do not remember exactly. I cannot say whether I saw her with a
>pistol in Auschwitz or in Belsen, but I remember I have seen her with
>a pistol.
And? Did anyone think to ask this witness to DESCRIBE the pistol?
Debunks
>Message-id: <36799283...@news.sig.net>
>
>Richard Phillips <rgp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>But back to Griese. Could you give me a precis of the testimony against her.
>How many
>>people testified. Were they cross-examined?
>>
>>============================
>
>Now we move to the rest of the affidavits.
SNIP
DON'T BOTHER. None of these people were cross-examined on these charges. These
statements are all worthless.
Debunks
>Message-id: <367a92e5...@news.sig.net>
SNIP
It should be noted that Kramer, Hoessler andKlein had all been viciously beaten
and threatened prior to their testimonies. Kramer wrote a letter to his wife
explaining once again that he was innocent and was being charged simply because
he was an SS member.
Yale F. Edeiken
> >Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
> >From: mi...@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
> >Message-id: <36799283...@news.sig.net>
> >Richard Phillips <rgp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>But back to Griese. Could you give me a precis of the testimony against her.
> >How many
> >>people testified. Were they cross-examined?
> >Now we move to the rest of the affidavits.
> SNIP
> DON'T BOTHER. None of these people were cross-examined on these charges. These
> statements are all worthless.
Jew-hating Joe once more proves he is unable to deal with evidence.
Daniel Keren
# It should be noted that Kramer, Hoessler and Klein had all
# been viciously beaten and threatened prior to their testimonies.
It should be noted that Boger cannot offer any proof of
this whatsoever. He simply makes up this rubbish as he
goes along. Like his claim that, during Dresden's bombing,
"children melted in their mothers' arms". Boger is perhaps
suffering from hallucinations.
# Kramer wrote a letter to his wife explaining once again that
# he was innocent and was being charged simply because he was an
# SS member.
Let Boger post the letter's full text. Did Kramer believe he
was innocent? Of course. He was just following orders.
In a post-war interview with Tom Segev, Rosina Kramer said that
her husband told her that they should thank the Lord that they
were not born as Jews, for then they would have to die. Boger
must know this, because it appears in Segev's book, a few
lines after the letter he speaks about is mentioned. Ain't
that so, Boger?
She also testified, during the Belsen trial, that she was well
aware of the mass gassings in Auschwitz.
Always happy to fill in these little details that Boger "forgets".
-Danny Keren.
Yale F. Edeiken
> >Date: 12/16/98 7:11 AM EST
> >Message-id: <36783...@news3.enter.net>
> >
> >> >>But back to Griese. Could you give me a precis of the testimony against
> >her.
> >> >How many
> >> >>people testified. Were they cross-examined?
> >> >Now we move to the rest of the affidavits.
> >> SNIP
> >> DON'T BOTHER. None of these people were cross-examined on these charges.
> >These
> >> statements are all worthless.
> > Jew-hating Joe once more proves he is unable to deal with evidence.
> And by Yale posting this ridiculous nonsense yet again....it is his "signature"
> ....he only shows that once again he is incapable of dealing with the actual
> issues.
The issue, Jew-hating Joe, are your fraudulent misrepresentations.
This was one of them:
Mike Curtis
Mark Van Alstine wrote:
==================================
Phillips
this is about what I expected to hear.
=====================
Debunks
>Date: 12/16/98 5:41 PM EST
>Message-id: <F42xo...@world.std.com>
>
>Joe "Boger" Bellinger, posting as "Debunks", writes:
>
># It should be noted that Kramer, Hoessler and Klein had all
># been viciously beaten and threatened prior to their testimonies.
>
>It should be noted that Boger cannot offer any proof of
>this whatsoever. He simply makes up this rubbish as he
>goes along. Like his claim that, during Dresden's bombing,
>"children melted in their mothers' arms". Boger is perhaps
>suffering from hallucinations.
>
># Kramer wrote a letter to his wife explaining once again that
># he was innocent and was being charged simply because he was an
># SS member.
>
>Let Boger post the letter's full text. Did Kramer believe he
>was innocent? Of course. He was just following orders.
>In a post-war interview with Tom Segev, Rosina Kramer said that
>her husband told her that they should thank the Lord that they
>were not born as Jews, for then they would have to die.
If that is true, then why were there so many survivors?
>Boger
>must know this, because it appears in Segev's book, a few
>lines after the letter he speaks about is mentioned. Ain't
>that so, Boger?
Yes, as a matter of fact, that is so, but these contradictions do not support
your viewpoint. What Rosina Kramer says 40 years later to an Israeli
journalist regarding this matter is really not germane to the point of what
Kramer wrote in his letters. THAT is evidence; not Rosina trying to pacify Mr
Segev.
>She also testified, during the Belsen trial, that she was well
>aware of the mass gassings in Auschwitz.
>
Yes, she said the gassings were "common knowldege." Perhaps you could get her
to expand on that statement, if she is still living.
I can save you the time though--they were "common knowledge" through rumors
spread by inmates.
>
>Always happy to fill in these little details that Boger "forgets".
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
And I am happy to fill in yours as well. Happy Hanukah.
Debunks
>Date: 12/16/98 7:11 AM EST
>Message-id: <36783...@news3.enter.net>
>
>> >Date: 12/15/98 11:48 AM EST
>> >Message-id: <36799283...@news.sig.net>
>
>> >Richard Phillips <rgp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>her.
>> >How many
>> >>people testified. Were they cross-examined?
>
>> >Now we move to the rest of the affidavits.
>
>> SNIP
>
>> DON'T BOTHER. None of these people were cross-examined on these charges.
>These
>> statements are all worthless.
>
> Jew-hating Joe once more proves he is unable to deal with evidence.
>
>
>
>
>
> .well if you e-mail me at jbel...@sprynet.com you can find out more about
>me i
> am a female."
>
> --YFE
>
And by Yale posting this ridiculous nonsense yet again....it is his "signature"
Richard Phillips
Debunks wrote:
> >Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
=====================================
Phillips
Bah, humbug.
===============
Daniel Keren
## Joe "Boger" Bellinger, posting as "Debunks", writes:
### It should be noted that Kramer, Hoessler and Klein had all
### been viciously beaten and threatened prior to their testimonies.
## It should be noted that Boger cannot offer any proof of
## this whatsoever. He simply makes up this rubbish as he
## goes along. Like his claim that, during Dresden's bombing,
## "children melted in their mothers' arms". Boger is perhaps
## suffering from hallucinations.
No comment, Boger? Please supply the documentation for the
"melting children", and the "torture" of the three SS-men.
## In a post-war interview with Tom Segev, Rosina Kramer said that
## her husband told her that they should thank the Lord that they
## were not born as Jews, for then they would have to die.
# If that is true, then why were there so many survivors?
Not so many, relative to the pre-war Jewish population. And,
true, your Nazi heroes lost the war, and didn't have enough
time to kill all the Jews.
## Boger must know this, because it appears in Segev's book, a few
## lines after the letter he speaks about is mentioned. Ain't
## that so, Boger?
# Yes, as a matter of fact, that is so, but these contradictions do
# not support your viewpoint. What Rosina Kramer says 40 years
# later to an Israeli journalist regarding this matter is really
# not germane to the point of what Kramer wrote in his letters.
Why not? And what *did* Kramer write? Do tell us, Boger.
## She also testified, during the Belsen trial, that she was well
## aware of the mass gassings in Auschwitz.
# Yes, she said the gassings were "common knowledge." Perhaps you
# could get her to expand on that statement, if she is still living.
I have no idea; she would be rather old, I guess.
# I can save you the time though--they were "common knowledge"
# through rumors spread by inmates.
Silly Boger. This woman is married to the commandant of Birkenau,
and she hears these "rumors"; wouldn't she ask him? Wouldn't he
deny them, if they were only "rumors"? Silly, silly Boger.
-Danny Keren.
John Morris
04:13:30 GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
>>From: dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>>Message-id: <F42xo...@world.std.com>
[snip]
>>In a post-war interview with Tom Segev, Rosina Kramer said that
>>her husband told her that they should thank the Lord that they
>>were not born as Jews, for then they would have to die.
>
>If that is true, then why were there so many survivors?
Because, as you have argued elsewhere, the Nazis did not have the
technical means to complete the physical destruction of European
Jewry.
[snip]
--
John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
Mike Curtis
>>Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
>>From: mi...@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
>>Date: 12/15/98 11:46 AM EST
>>Message-id: <36789211...@news.sig.net>
>
>>[The next witness is Abraham Glinowieski who is under examination from
>>Colonel
>>>Backhouse, the prosecutor which begins on page 103.]
>
>>A: I come from Plonsk in Poland, was arrested in 1942, and sent to
>>Auschwitz, where I stayed until either October or November, 1944,
>>after which I was in one or two other places and eventually arrived in
>>Belsen about two and a half month before the camp was liberated.
>
>Note that ABe does not state WHY he was arrested, nor was he asked.
So what?
>>
>>[He points out no.9 Grese as one among many defendants he recognizes.]
>>
>
>Defendants were all shown photos of the accused prior and during interrogation,
>and witnesses were allowed to consult with one another.
Source?
>>
>>A: Accused No. 11 (Hilde Lobauer) was a Lager Kapo\
>
>In other words, she was one of those who tormented the prisoners. KAPOS were
>the REAL power and authority in the camps, as they had complete control over
>the lives of the inmates under their charge. It was they, more than others,
>who beat, tormented, stole from, and intimidated their fellow-prisoners. Most
>KAPOS had been career criminals in real life, and most of the KAPOS were set
>free by the Belsen court!
In what way does this goes to alleviate Grese's guilt?
> in Auschwitz and
>>assisted in transporting people to the crematorium. She helped prevent
>>people from escaping or hiding. Grese was the camp leader in Camp C. I
>>saw her every day, and when the transports from Hungary arrived she
>>sent thousands and thousands of people, ill and in quite good health,
>>to the gas chambers
>
>Neither Grese nor any other Matron was allowed to make selections, which was
>the task of Physicians.
I realize that you insist on repeating this fiction. The fact of the
matter is that Doctors, who were in charge of selections concerning
Jews and in determining who would not be gassed immediately upon
arrival, would not refuse help from those around them. The task was
huge and some of these doctors didn't enjoy what they were doing. So
the testimony above states that Grese's part was to keep "people from
escaping or hiding" and thus avoiding the eyes of the Doctors. So she
participated in the eyes of this witness as a conspirator to murder.
Others testified that she would point out folks to the doctors who, in
her opinion, were gassable. Try following along with the testimony
Bellinger and pay closer attention to what is said rather than what
you want them to be saying.
> She used to come on inspections to the respective
>>blocks and, according to her whims, she beat people with a stick if
>>she disliked them. She also carried a pistol. . . . .
>This does not support a charge of first degree murder.
Since she is accused of shooting two people with that pistol in other
testimony then that does support the charge. An accessory to murder
can also be charged along with the actual murderer in the same exact
charges. This is what is going on here. We have testimony of her
beating and shooting inmates while also participating in selections
for the gas chamber.
>>
>>[Cross Examination by Major Cranfield who was Grese's council begins
>>page 106:]
>>
>>Q: Have you ever been on a selection parade yourself?
>>
>>A: I was present at each of them.
>>
>>Q: Were these parades always formed up the same way?
>>
>>A: Yes. The prisoners were fromed up in ranks of five.
>>
>>Q: Is it correct that S. S. personnel, Kapos, Blockaeltesten and
>>blockleaders all assisted in getting the prisoners fromed up on
>>parade?
>>
>>A: Only S.S. and Lager Kapos were present.
>>
>>Q: When you were told to get on parade were you told what the parade
>>was for -- a roll-call, working party, gas chamber selection or what?
>>
>>A: We were not told anything. It was quite evident that the people
>>selected on the parade had been sent to the gas chamber, because at
>>night the trucks came in, the women wew loaded naked and they shouted
>>and cried.
>
>This is no proof of homicide or gas chambers. Othe rinmates have shown that
>these could have been simple transfers to other barracks or facilities.
Of course there is proof. Not one denied the existence of gas
chambers. Not one.
>>Q: It was quite evident after the parade, but you did not know before
>>it?
>>
>>A: Yes, we all knew what was the purpose of the parade. The camp
>>doctor arrived and that was the best proof to us.
>
>Well, that is not proof to us. We need verifiable evidence to support these
>wild speculations.
It was proof to them, Belligerent, because they were there. It was a
daily routine to these folks. It is almost like this newsgroup. We
know you will lie and obfuscate. We know that Richard will claim
ignorance despite getting what he asked for. It is exactly like when a
doctor walked into a selection process of Jews that some would die in
the gas chambers that everyone knew about. Hoessler had first hand
contact with them and he so testified.
>>>>[The next witness is Lidia Sunschein who is under examination from Colonel
>>>>Backhouse, the prosecutor which begins on page 116.]
>>
>>A: I am a Polish Jewess aged 23, from Lodz, was sent to Auschwitz in
>>March 1943, and transferred to Belsen in January, 1945.
>
>You mean she wasn't gassed? Why? They didn't need her for labor any longer.
So she was young at 21 when she arrived at Auschwitz and put to work.
We also know that the Germans marched many into German territory to
work at building defenses against the coming invasion. You know that
as do others familiar with the history. The fact that you show
ignorance here of something you know very well about doesn't say much
about your honesty.
The rest is typical Bellinger sniveling that has been addressed
before.
Bye, Joe, get a better act.
Mike Curtis
Richard Phillips
Mike Curtis wrote:
========================================
Philllips
How does it support a charge of FIRST DEGREE murder?
=========================================
Debunks
>From: mi...@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
>Date: 12/17/98 10:46 AM EST
>Message-id: <17129810...@briefly.net>
>> Suuure, Hess tried to stop the war
Yes he did, and you are trying to contradict that notion, Curtis?
>-- by trying to persuade the British it
>> was in their best interest to stand back and watch while Hitler's armies
>> marched east, enslaved or exterminated entire populations, etc. What
>> right-thinking white person could possibly object to that?
>>
I see...the British preferred that the Soviets march WEST and slaughtered and
enslave western europeans.
>
>Oh, so you're rather have Stalin enslaving and exterminating entire
>populations there instead?
Of course he would.
Mike Curtis
It was the plan of the Nazis to kill Jews. They were transported to be
killed. It was premeditated. So you tell me, does that support first
degree murder? In this country it does. Next question?
Mike Curtis
Mike Curtis
You aren't responding to anything I wrote, Bellinger. Watch that
spammer.
>>Subject: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
>>From: mi...@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
>>Date: 12/17/98 10:46 AM EST
>>Message-id: <17129810...@briefly.net>
>
>>> Suuure, Hess tried to stop the war
>
>Yes he did, and you are trying to contradict that notion, Curtis?
>
>>-- by trying to persuade the British it
>>> was in their best interest to stand back and watch while Hitler's armies
>>> marched east, enslaved or exterminated entire populations, etc. What
>>> right-thinking white person could possibly object to that?
>>>
>
>I see...the British preferred that the Soviets march WEST and slaughtered and
>enslave western europeans.
>
>>
>>Oh, so you're rather have Stalin enslaving and exterminating entire
>>populations there instead?
>
>Of course he would.
>
Mike Curtis
Debunks
>Message-id: <36790d9c....@news.sig.net>
>
>deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
>
>>>Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
>>>From: mi...@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
>>>Date: 12/15/98 11:46 AM EST
>>>Message-id: <36789211...@news.sig.net>
>>
>>>[The next witness is Abraham Glinowieski who is under examination from
>>>Colonel
>>>>Backhouse, the prosecutor which begins on page 103.]
>>
>>>A: I come from Plonsk in Poland, was arrested in 1942, and sent to
>>>Auschwitz, where I stayed until either October or November, 1944,
>>>after which I was in one or two other places and eventually arrived in
>>>Belsen about two and a half month before the camp was liberated.
>>
>>Note that ABe does not state WHY he was arrested, nor was he asked.
>
>So what?
>
You KNOW why so WHAT. Abe and his brother were two common criminals. DO you
always take the word of criminals?
>>Defendants were all shown photos of the accused prior and during
>interrogation,
>>and witnesses were allowed to consult with one another.
>
>Source?
>
Numerous sources. It wouldn't matter to you anyway.
>>
>>>A: Accused No. 11 (Hilde Lobauer) was a Lager Kapo\
>>
>>In other words, she was one of those who tormented the prisoners. KAPOS
>were
>>the REAL power and authority in the camps, as they had complete control over
>>the lives of the inmates under their charge. It was they, more than others,
>>who beat, tormented, stole from, and intimidated their fellow-prisoners.
>Most
>>KAPOS had been career criminals in real life, and most of the KAPOS were set
>>free by the Belsen court!
>
>In what way does this goes to alleviate Grese's guilt?
Grese had no guilt. You are confused.
>>Neither Grese nor any other Matron was allowed to make selections, which was
>>the task of Physicians.
>
>I realize that you insist on repeating this fiction.
It is you who is repeating a fiction. OVer and Over and Over in the literature
the same claim is repeated over and over and over again: Only docters were
allowed to make selections. They worked on a schedule and the matrons were
simply in charge of seeing to it that all were present for the doctors
inspection. Implying otherwise is a lie.
>The fact of the
>matter is that Doctors, who were in charge of selections concerning
>Jews and in determining who would not be gassed immediately upon
>arrival,
No one was gassed upon arrival, Mike You know, you all keep carrying on about
these alleged gas chambers but can offer no budget or diagrams for their
construction and so on clearly labeled homicidal gas chamber--but I will go
even further--even if there WERE such documents they STILL would not support
your claim and here is why----These camps served a number of different
purposes, among them being th elegal execution of criminals. In most countries
throughout the world, legal executions take place right at the prisons where
the condemned are housed. In the USA, we have lethal gas chambers directly
built in the prison facility and so on. You really have your work cut out for
you, and you are swimming against the surrent. You have nowhere to go but
under. I sympathize with you.
>The task was
>huge and some of these doctors didn't enjoy what they were doing. So
>the testimony above states that Grese's part was to keep "people from
>escaping or hiding" a
Miss Grese was in charge of Appell. THus, it was her duty to see that people
did not escape from confinement, as it is the duty of every prison warder and
wardress in every penal institution throughout the world.
>and thus avoiding the eyes of the Doctors.
Everyone had to be present for medical inspections. Period. This was not Miss
Grese's order, but her orders were to see that inmates were always present and
accounted for. There is noting sinister nor criminal in this.
>So she
>participated in the eyes of this witness as a conspirator to murder.
Your witnesses needed glasses, for they took the liberty of adding horrors to
perfectly innocent activities.
>Others testified that she would point out folks to the doctors who, in
>her opinion, were gassable.
That is their OPINION. This hardly sustains a charge of murder, even if true,
for the doctor made the final decisions in who would be transferred to other
facilities due to illness.
>Try following along with the testimony
>Bellinger
Don't give me advice you are not prepared to follow. I am more familiar with
these testimonies than you are.
>and pay closer attention to what is said rather than what
>you want them to be saying.
I do not place words in other people's mouths.
>
>> She used to come on inspections to the respective
>>>blocks and, according to her whims, she beat people with a stick if
>>>she disliked them. She also carried a pistol. . . . .
>>This does not support a charge of first degree murder.
>
>Since she is accused of shooting two people with that pistol in other
>testimony then that does support the charge.
No, it does NOT. Where was this notorious pistol? Was it ever introduced into
evidence at the trial? NO, it was not. SImply because a woman guard was given
a pistol a few months before the dissolution of the Auschwitz camp does not
support these contentions at all. It was very common for women to have been
given pistols as the Russian rapists moved wetwards. Also, do you have any
DESCRIPTIONS of this alleged pistol? No, you do not. All you have are
allegations, allegations, allegations. Allegations, I need not remind you, are
not evidence.
>We have testimony of her
>beating and shooting inmates while also participating in selections
>for the gas chamber.
And none of that testimony was credible.
>Of course there is proof. Not one denied the existence of gas
>chambers. Not one.
They said what they were told to say in this regard. And usually, all of them
denied any first hand knowledge of the "gas chambers." They all heard through
someone else or through inmate grapevine. These rumors were begun by the
crafty communist inmate Hermann Langbein.
>Well, that is not proof to us. We need verifiable evidence to support these
>>wild speculations.
>
>It was proof to them, Belligerent,
I am unconcerned with their susceptibility to delusion. I am no more
interested in their observations based upon rumors and fantasies than I am in
apologizing for those who fell victim to the mass hysteria known as tarantism.
The camps were the ideal environment for the spread of such pernicious
rumors...Weaker inmate swere simply preyed upon by the hardened cadres of
prisoners who knew how to play a sucker when they saw one. This is quite
common in every institution.
>because they were there.
So what? This means nothing. Others were there who claim there were no gas
chambers...yet you seek to only believe one side--the side which supports your
unfounded claims.
>It was a
>daily routine to these folks. It is almost like this newsgroup. We
>know you will lie and obfuscate.
That;'a lie in itself, Curtis, and I tire of you hypocrites always referring to
your opponents as liars. I believe a great number of lurkers also find this
smear tactic of the Nizkook equally offensive. That is why you are conisisting
getting the short end of the stick in these debates.
>We know that Richard will claim
>ignorance despite getting what he asked for.
No, you did NOT give him what he asked for, so stop claiming as if you had.
>It is exactly like when a
>doctor walked into a selection process of Jews that some would die in
>the gas chambers that everyone knew about. Hoessler had first hand
>contact with them and he so testified.
Hoessler was beaten and tormented until he was a physical and nervous wreck.
It is only upon such conditions that you may put forward "incriminating"
confessions.
>>>
>>>A: I am a Polish Jewess aged 23, from Lodz, was sent to Auschwitz in
>>>March 1943, and transferred to Belsen in January, 1945.
>>
>>You mean she wasn't gassed? Why? They didn't need her for labor any
>longer.
>
>So she was young at 21 when she arrived at Auschwitz and put to work.
>We also know that the Germans marched many into German territory to
>work at building defenses against the coming invasion.
In fact, Miss Grese was rarely placed in charge of work details. And so what
even if she was? Do you expect that the authorities were going to allow these
people to march out of camp on their own initiative?
>You know that
>as do others familiar with the history. The fact that you show
>ignorance here of something you know very well about doesn't say much
>about your honesty.
It isn't saying much about yours, Mr. Curtis. I AM honest, and have always
done right by you.
>The rest is typical Bellinger sniveling that has been addressed
>before.
>
>Bye, Joe, get a better act.
>
WHy should I when the truth works so well for me? I advise you to follow your
own advice.
Debunks
>Date: 12/17/98 7:20 AM EST
>Message-id: <F43zL...@world.std.com>
>
>Joe "Boger" Bellinger, posting as "Debunks", writes:
># From: dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren):
>## Joe "Boger" Bellinger, posting as "Debunks", writes:
>
>### It should be noted that Kramer, Hoessler and Klein had all
>### been viciously beaten and threatened prior to their testimonies.
>
>## It should be noted that Boger cannot offer any proof of
>## this whatsoever. He simply makes up this rubbish as he
>## goes along. Like his claim that, during Dresden's bombing,
>## "children melted in their mothers' arms". Boger is perhaps
>## suffering from hallucinations.
>
>No comment, Boger? Please supply the documentation for the
>"melting children", and the "torture" of the three SS-men.
>
Funny you should ask, with all your claims of melting human fat in pits and so
on. The torture of Hoessler may have been referred to in the book, Victor's
Justice, By Belgion.
>
># If that is true, then why were there so many survivors?
>
>Not so many, relative to the pre-war Jewish population. And,
>true, your Nazi heroes lost the war, and didn't have enough
>time to kill all the Jews.
>
Dan-stop acting ridiculous. In the first place you cannot ever prove genocide
against the Jews due to Germany's encouragement and approval of mass emigration
by Jews prior to the outbreak of war. So there goes one charge right out the
window. And if what you write about the gas chambers is true, there would have
been NO survivors at all. And three, we will never know how many Jews
illegally fled Europe during the years 1945-1955.
>Why not? And what *did* Kramer write? Do tell us, Boger.
>
Already told you.
># I can save you the time though--they were "common knowledge"
># through rumors spread by inmates.
>
>Silly Boger. This woman is married to the commandant of Birkenau,
>and she hears these "rumors"; wouldn't she ask him? Wouldn't he
>deny them, if they were only "rumors"? Silly, silly Boger.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>
He did deny them--to the very bitter end.
Debunks
>Date: 12/17/98 8:43 AM EST
>Message-id: <36860a11...@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
>
>In <19981216231330...@ng-cf1.aol.com>, on 17 Dec 1998
>04:13:30 GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
>
>>>From: dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>>>Message-id: <F42xo...@world.std.com>
>
>[snip]
>
>>>In a post-war interview with Tom Segev, Rosina Kramer said that
>>>her husband told her that they should thank the Lord that they
>>>were not born as Jews, for then they would have to die.
>>
>
>technical means to complete the physical destruction of European
>Jewry.
>
>[snip]
>
>--
> John Morris
According to you, they did.
Mike Curtis
>>Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
>>From: mi...@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
>>Date: 12/17/98 9:14 AM EST
>>Message-id: <36790d9c....@news.sig.net>
>>
>>deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
>>
>>>>Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
>>>>From: mi...@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
>>>>Date: 12/15/98 11:46 AM EST
>>>>Message-id: <36789211...@news.sig.net>
>>>
>>>>[The next witness is Abraham Glinowieski who is under examination from
>>>>Colonel
>>>>>Backhouse, the prosecutor which begins on page 103.]
>>>
>>>>A: I come from Plonsk in Poland, was arrested in 1942, and sent to
>>>>Auschwitz, where I stayed until either October or November, 1944,
>>>>after which I was in one or two other places and eventually arrived in
>>>>Belsen about two and a half month before the camp was liberated.
>>>
>>>Note that ABe does not state WHY he was arrested, nor was he asked.
>>
>>So what?
>>
>
>You KNOW why so WHAT. Abe and his brother were two common criminals. DO you
>always take the word of criminals?
Source or is this further foot stomping from Bellinger?
>>>Defendants were all shown photos of the accused prior and during
>>interrogation,
>>>and witnesses were allowed to consult with one another.
>>
>>Source?
>>
>
>Numerous sources. It wouldn't matter to you anyway.
Neither does your foot stomping.
>>>
>>>>A: Accused No. 11 (Hilde Lobauer) was a Lager Kapo\
>>>
>>>In other words, she was one of those who tormented the prisoners. KAPOS
>>were
>>>the REAL power and authority in the camps, as they had complete control over
>>>the lives of the inmates under their charge. It was they, more than others,
>>>who beat, tormented, stole from, and intimidated their fellow-prisoners.
>>Most
>>>KAPOS had been career criminals in real life, and most of the KAPOS were set
>>>free by the Belsen court!
>>
>>In what way does this goes to alleviate Grese's guilt?
>
>Grese had no guilt. You are confused.
Look in your mirror to see who is really confused in this newsgroup.
So far you have simply not provided any citations. Nothing new. Same
old Bellinger. Lots of foot stomping. Maybe we need to add a mouth
harp, a fiddle, and a banjo to accompany you.
>>>Neither Grese nor any other Matron was allowed to make selections, which was
>>>the task of Physicians.
>>
>>I realize that you insist on repeating this fiction.
>
>It is you who is repeating a fiction. OVer and Over and Over in the literature
>the same claim is repeated over and over and over again: Only docters were
>allowed to make selections.
So? Where did I contradict that particular rule. None of witnesses do.
They suggest she helped them do it. Seems that these doctor clowns had
the final word. they could place them back on side that lived to work
as slaves.
> They worked on a schedule and the matrons were
>simply in charge of seeing to it that all were present for the doctors
>inspection. Implying otherwise is a lie.
Because You say so. Isn't that right, Joe? You stomp those feet and
type in all caps but it is still stomping fet and a lot of
unsubstantiated noise.
>>The fact of the
>>matter is that Doctors, who were in charge of selections concerning
>>Jews and in determining who would not be gassed immediately upon
>>arrival,
>
>No one was gassed upon arrival, Mike.
Excuuuuuuse me. they had to be selected first. Then they were gassed.
Reread Hoessler's testimony that contradicts you second hand foot
stomping. I understand that Hoessler was there. Were you there, Joe?
> You know, you all keep carrying on about
>these alleged gas chambers but can offer no budget or diagrams for their
>construction and so on clearly labeled homicidal gas chamber--but I will go
They've been offered and given so often in the newsgroup and on web
pages that your blindness is self-imposed, Bellinger.
>even further--even if there WERE such documents they STILL would not support
>your claim and here is why----These camps served a number of different
>purposes, among them being th elegal execution of criminals. In most countries
>throughout the world, legal executions take place right at the prisons where
>the condemned are housed. In the USA, we have lethal gas chambers directly
>built in the prison facility and so on. You really have your work cut out for
>you, and you are swimming against the surrent. You have nowhere to go but
>under. I sympathize with you.
Yawn.
>>The task was
>>huge and some of these doctors didn't enjoy what they were doing. So
>>the testimony above states that Grese's part was to keep "people from
>>escaping or hiding" a
>
>Miss Grese was in charge of Appell. THus, it was her duty to see that people
>did not escape from confinement, as it is the duty of every prison warder and
>wardress in every penal institution throughout the world.
So she shot them rather than take them back into line. Good show, Joe!
You're starting to knee yourself in the mouth you are stomping so
hard.
>>and thus avoiding the eyes of the Doctors.
>
>Everyone had to be present for medical inspections. Period. This was not Miss
>Grese's order, but her orders were to see that inmates were always present and
>accounted for. There is noting sinister nor criminal in this.
And the doctors came and performed selections for the gas chamber. She
helped them do this. She's an accomplice.
>>So she
>>participated in the eyes of this witness as a conspirator to murder.
>
>Your witnesses needed glasses, for they took the liberty of adding horrors to
>perfectly innocent activities.
They were not my witnesses, Joe. I was not alive then. But hten it is
rather funny when "my" witnesses agree with the Nazis who I guess are
"your" witnesses. Grow up, Bellinger.
>>Others testified that she would point out folks to the doctors who, in
>>her opinion, were gassable.
>
>That is their OPINION.
It was their perception and it carried in court. Too bad for your
witnesses. LOL!
> This hardly sustains a charge of murder, even if true,
>for the doctor made the final decisions in who would be transferred to other
>facilities due to illness.
Stomp those feet, Bellinger.
>>Try following along with the testimony
>>Bellinger
>
>Don't give me advice you are not prepared to follow. I am more familiar with
>these testimonies than you are.
LOL!
>>and pay closer attention to what is said rather than what
>>you want them to be saying.
>
>I do not place words in other people's mouths.
LOL!
Yawn.
Mike Curtis
Gord McFee
03:52:29 GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
> >Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
> >From: gmc...@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
> >Date: 12/14/98 10:27 PM EST
> >Message-id: <367fcc33...@news3.ibm.net>
> >
> >In <367567C2...@earthlink.net>, on Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:32:18
> >-0500, Richard Phillips <rgp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Philllips
> >>
> >> On the subject of Irma Griese, I'm not very passionate, one way or another,
> >but I
> >> would like to know this: Can it be definitely established whether any acts
> >she is
> >> alleged to have committed would be punishable by death in America.
> >
> >I am hurt, Richard. I already answered this question some time ago, and
> >you seem to have ignored it. Irma Grese was found guilty of murder,
> >which the last I heard was punishable by death in America.
>
> Too bad they never provided any evidence to go along with that guilty verdict.
Oh, "they" provided lots of evidence. The Germans provided lots of
evidence. Irma Grese provided lots of evidence. She was guilty all
right.
--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time
Visit the Holocaust History Project
http://www.holocaust-history.org
Visit the Nizkor site
http://www.nizkor.org
Yale F. Edeiken
> Mike Curtis wrote:
> > > She used to come on inspections to the respective
> > >>blocks and, according to her whims, she beat people with a stick if
> > >>she disliked them. She also carried a pistol. . . . .
> > >This does not support a charge of first degree murder.
> > Since she is accused of shooting two people with that pistol in other
> > testimony then that does support the charge.
> How does it support a charge of FIRST DEGREE murder?
Shooting innocent people with a pistol is usually considered murder around
here. Apparently it's different in your world.
> > An accessory to murder
> > can also be charged along with the actual murderer in the same exact
> > charges. This is what is going on here. We have testimony of her
> > beating and shooting inmates while also participating in selections
> > for the gas chamber.
Of course, it is noted that your comment does not seem to understand that
Curtis has provided an explanation. Further you still ignore the felony murder rule.
DeppityBob
ORAC wrote:
> In article <zypd2.7$eB2...@news14.ispnews.com>, "Dan Parker"
> <dpa...@intrstar.net> wrote:
>
> >ORAC wrote in message ...
> >>In article <3675CB42...@earthlink.net>, Richard Phillips
> >><rgp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >>>Dan's words were not against his country; they were against the power
> >>that presently
> >>>rules it. The two are not the same.
> >>
> >>I must have missed something. When was our government supposedly taken
> >>over by another power?
> >>
> >
> >
> >1933!
>
> You're just mad because FDR kicked your hero Hitler's behind.
CF:>>>>Yeah, and not only that...FDR was a crippled man!
ROTFLMAO
>
>
> --
> THE ABOVE E-MAIL ADDRESS ONLY ACCEPTS MAIL FROM FAMILY
> AND FRIENDS. TO E-MAIL ME, USE: dgorski[at]xsite[dot]net!
> -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
> ORAC |"A statement of fact cannot be
> a.k.a. David Gorski | insolent." ORAC
> Chicago, IL |
Gord McFee
20:01:17 GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
[deleted]
> No one was gassed upon arrival, Mike You know, you all keep carrying on about
> these alleged gas chambers but can offer no budget or diagrams for their
> construction and so on clearly labeled homicidal gas chamber--but I will go
> even further--even if there WERE such documents they STILL would not support
> your claim and here is why----These camps served a number of different
> purposes, among them being th elegal execution of criminals. In most countries
> throughout the world, legal executions take place right at the prisons where
> the condemned are housed. In the USA, we have lethal gas chambers directly
> built in the prison facility and so on. You really have your work cut out for
> you, and you are swimming against the surrent. You have nowhere to go but
> under. I sympathize with you.
Well, this is a new one. First, we deny the existence of the gas
chambers because there is no extant document with the words "homicidal
gas chamber" on it. Then, in case that doesn't hold up, it was
perfectly normal for Auschwitz to have a gas chamber since they were
legally executing prisoners. I guess that covers all the possibilities,
doesn't it?
But what does that have to do with the extensive documents posted by
Mike Curtis that prove conclusively that Grese was guilty of murder?
Debunks
> You goyim thought JDL was bad? JDL are ok but we make em look like
>pansies....
>
>TREAD VERY SLOWLY GOYIM
>
>
Boy, am I scared now. I sure wish I hadn't invited this chickenshit to come
visit. What ever would I do if this Nazihunter faggot showed up at my house?
Well, the deed is done. I guess I'll just have to face this mighty
chickenshit Jew when he shows up. I don't need to ask. I know this
chickenshit jew is brave enough to come here. Aren't you chickenshit jew?
Dan Parker
DeppityBob
>Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 9:37 PM
>Message-id: <19981216163707...@ng32.aol.com>
>
>>Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
>beaten
>and threatened prior to their testimonies. Kramer wrote a letter to his
>wife
>explaining once again that he was innocent and was being charged simply
>because
>he was an SS member.
It should be noted that Booger has no substantiation for this whatsoever--no
text, no works, no citations, no proof. However, there is much evidence,
including the words of the condemned, of their guilt. Go ahead and ask Booger
for a quote--author, title, publisher, page number, quote marks, the whole nine
yards--and what you'll get is evasion. But then again, that's Booger.
Dep
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Always tell the truth. It's the easiest thing to remember."
--David Mamet
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Daniel Keren
# From: dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren):
### It should be noted that Boger cannot offer any proof of
### this whatsoever. He simply makes up this rubbish as he
### goes along. Like his claim that, during Dresden's bombing,
### "children melted in their mothers' arms". Boger is perhaps
### suffering from hallucinations.
# No comment, Boger? Please supply the documentation for the
# "melting children", and the "torture" of the three SS-men.
# Funny you should ask, with all your claims of melting human
# fat in pits and so on.
But the testimonies from Dresden speak of "four feet deep
puddles of melted human flesh". That fat will melt and flow
when a corpse is burned is a well-know fact. Everyone who
made BBQ should understand this. Even Legace, the "revisionist
expert on cremation", said that burning human fat may leak
out of a cremation furnace which is not properly closed. But
"melting flesh"? How can this be possible?
# The torture of Hoessler may have been referred to in the
# book, Victor's Justice, By Belgion.
Oh. Finally something, alas not too much. "may have been
referred". Not good enough. What about Klein and Kramer?
# Dan-stop acting ridiculous. In the first place you cannot ever
# prove genocide against the Jews due to Germany's encouragement
# and approval of mass emigration by Jews prior to the outbreak
# of war.
They have not allowed Jews to leave Europe since May 1941, and
it was not easy to leave before that.
# So there goes one charge right out the window.
No. Because they have not allowed Jews to leave. If they really
just wanted to drive the Jews out of Europe, why would they not
allow them to leave? Silly, silly Boger.
# And if what you write about the gas chambers is true, there
# would have been NO survivors at all.
Why? Your Nazi heroes lost the war. They didn't have time to
kill all the Jews. We've been there already, have we not?
# And three, we will never know how many Jews illegally fled
# Europe during the years 1945-1955.
But we know how many Jews were there in 1939, and in 1945, and
how many left during that period. And there are about six million
missing.
## Silly Boger. This woman is married to the commandant of Birkenau,
## and she hears these "rumors"; wouldn't she ask him? Wouldn't he
## deny them, if they were only "rumors"? Silly, silly Boger.
# He did deny them--to the very bitter end.
Heck, Boger, he testified about the gas chambers in Natzweiler
and Auschwitz-Birkenau. Stop lying so much.
-Danny Keren.
Debunks
>Date: 12/17/98 9:48 PM EST
>Message-id: <19981217214859...@ng61.aol.com>
>
>>Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
>>From: deb...@aol.com (Debunks)
>>Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 9:37 PM
>>Message-id: <19981216163707...@ng32.aol.com>
>>
>>>Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
>>>From: mi...@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
>>>Date: 12/15/98 11:50 AM EST
>>>Message-id: <367a92e5...@news.sig.net>
>>
>>SNIP
>>
>>It should be noted that Kramer, Hoessler andKlein had all been viciously
>>beaten
>>and threatened prior to their testimonies. Kramer wrote a letter to his
>>wife
>>explaining once again that he was innocent and was being charged simply
>>because
>>he was an SS member.
>
>It should be noted that Booger has no substantiation for this whatsoever--no
>text, no works, no citations, no proof. However, there is much evidence,
>including the words of the condemned, of their guilt. Go ahead and ask Booger
>for a quote--author, title, publisher, page number, quote marks, the whole
>nine
>yards--and what you'll get is evasion. But then again, that's Booger.
>
>Dep
>
How is that one volume library of yours doing?
Debunks
>Date: 12/17/98 3:53 PM EST
>Message-id: <367b09f7...@news3.ibm.net>
>
>In <19981214225229...@ng-ft1.aol.com>, on 15 Dec 1998
>03:52:29 GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
>
>> >Date: 12/14/98 10:27 PM EST
>> >Message-id: <367fcc33...@news3.ibm.net>
>> >
>> >In <367567C2...@earthlink.net>, on Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:32:18
>> >-0500, Richard Phillips <rgp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Philllips
>> >>
>> >> On the subject of Irma Griese, I'm not very passionate, one way or
>another,
>> >but I
>> >> would like to know this: Can it be definitely established whether any
>acts
>> >she is
>> >> alleged to have committed would be punishable by death in America.
>> >
>> >I am hurt, Richard. I already answered this question some time ago, and
>> >you seem to have ignored it. Irma Grese was found guilty of murder,
>> >which the last I heard was punishable by death in America.
>>
>> Too bad they never provided any evidence to go along with that guilty
>verdict.
>
>Oh, "they" provided lots of evidence. The Germans provided lots of
>evidence. Irma Grese provided lots of evidence. She was guilty all
>right.
>
>--
>Gord McFee
Sorry to hear you feel that way about it. I maintain she was 100% innocent.
Debunks
>Date: 12/18/98 2:24 PM EST
>Message-id: <F46Dw...@world.std.com>
># No comment, Boger? Please supply the documentation for the
># "melting children", and the "torture" of the three SS-men.
>
># Funny you should ask, with all your claims of melting human
># fat in pits and so on.
>
>But the testimonies from Dresden speak of "four feet deep
>puddles of melted human flesh". That fat will melt and flow
>when a corpse is burned is a well-know fact. Everyone who
>made BBQ should understand this. Even Legace, the "revisionist
>expert on cremation", said that burning human fat may leak
>out of a cremation furnace which is not properly closed. But
>"melting flesh"? How can this be possible?
I have photos.
># The torture of Hoessler may have been referred to in the
># book, Victor's Justice, By Belgion.
>
>Oh. Finally something, alas not too much. "may have been
>referred". Not good enough. What about Klein and Kramer?
Probably the same source. You might also want to check out Sington's book.
># Dan-stop acting ridiculous. In the first place you cannot ever
># prove genocide against the Jews due to Germany's encouragement
># and approval of mass emigration by Jews prior to the outbreak
># of war.
>
>They have not allowed Jews to leave Europe since May 1941, and
>it was not easy to leave before that.
>
It was VERY easy toleave as tens of thousands of Jews did so. Also, the only
reason they were prohibited from emigrating after 41 is because of the war.
1.5 million Jews already under arms for the allies was enough, I should think.
># So there goes one charge right out the window.
>
>No. Because they have not allowed Jews to leave. If they really
>just wanted to drive the Jews out of Europe, why would they not
>allow them to leave? Silly, silly Boger.
>
But they did allow them to leave. It was only the war which prevented further
emigration, silly.
># And if what you write about the gas chambers is true, there
># would have been NO survivors at all.
>
>Why? Your Nazi heroes lost the war. They didn't have time to
>kill all the Jews. We've been there already, have we not?
They didn't have time to kill them all? They couldn't even kill all of the
Jews living in Germany! That is why a Jewish resistance group was living foot
loose and fancy free in Berlin in 1943!--and planning to kill Goebbels and blow
up a public building!
>
># And three, we will never know how many Jews illegally fled
># Europe during the years 1945-1955.
>
>But we know how many Jews were there in 1939, and in 1945, and
>how many left during that period. And there are about six million
>missing.
>
No, we do not know how many were there in 45. Those numbers have been
concealed.
>
># He did deny them--to the very bitter end.
>
>Heck, Boger, he testified about the gas chambers in Natzweiler
>and Auschwitz-Birkenau. Stop lying so much.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>
>
>
Those bogus gas chambers? Try again.
Debunks
>Message-id: <36796a54...@news.sig.net>
>
>deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
>
>>>Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
>>>From: mi...@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
>>>Date: 12/17/98 9:14 AM EST
>>>Message-id: <36790d9c....@news.sig.net>
>>>
>>>deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
>>>
>>>>>Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
>>>>>From: mi...@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
>>>>>Date: 12/15/98 11:46 AM EST
>>>>>Message-id: <36789211...@news.sig.net>
>>>>
>>>>>[The next witness is Abraham Glinowieski who is under examination from
>>>>>Colonel
>>>>>>Backhouse, the prosecutor which begins on page 103.]
>>>>
>>>>>A: I come from Plonsk in Poland, was arrested in 1942, and sent to
>>>>>Auschwitz, where I stayed until either October or November, 1944,
>>>>>after which I was in one or two other places and eventually arrived in
>>>>>Belsen about two and a half month before the camp was liberated.
>>>>
>>>>Note that ABe does not state WHY he was arrested, nor was he asked.
>>>
>>>So what?
>>>
>>
>>You KNOW why so WHAT. Abe and his brother were two common criminals. DO
>you
>>always take the word of criminals?
>
>Source or is this further foot stomping from Bellinger?
It has been posted numerous times in the past.
>
>>>>Defendants were all shown photos of the accused prior and during
>>>interrogation,
>>>>and witnesses were allowed to consult with one another.
>>>
>>>Source?
>>>
>>
>>Numerous sources. It wouldn't matter to you anyway.
>
>Neither does your foot stomping.
>
Go and refer to sources. Try Germany 1945-Barnouw.
>>
>>>In what way does this goes to alleviate Grese's guilt?
>>
>>Grese had no guilt. You are confused.
>
>Look in your mirror to see who is really confused in this newsgroup.
>
Why should I look in the mirror? Send me your picture.
>
>So far you have simply not provided any citations. Nothing new. Same
>old Bellinger. Lots of foot stomping. Maybe we need to add a mouth
>harp, a fiddle, and a banjo to accompany you.
I gave you sources. I do not have time to run after your shadows.
>
>So? Where did I contradict that particular rule. None of witnesses do.
>They suggest she helped them do it. Seems that these doctor clowns had
>the final word. they could place them back on side that lived to work
>as slaves.
>
There is no need to debate this. Matrons were not allowed to make selections.
I posted their actual duties.
> They worked on a schedule and the matrons were
>>simply in charge of seeing to it that all were present for the doctors
>>inspection. Implying otherwise is a lie.
>
>Because You say so. Isn't that right, Joe? You stomp those feet and
>type in all caps but it is still stomping fet and a lot of
>unsubstantiated noise.
Not because I say so, though those are the methods by which you try to sustain
your libel against Miss Grese--simply because the witnesses you refer us to
SAID SO.
>
>>>The fact of the
>>>matter is that Doctors, who were in charge of selections concerning
>>>Jews and in determining who would not be gassed immediately upon
>>>arrival,
>>
>>No one was gassed upon arrival, Mike.
>
>Excuuuuuuse me. they had to be selected first. Then they were gassed.
No one was gassed, Mike.
>Reread Hoessler's testimony that contradicts you second hand foot
>stomping. I understand that Hoessler was there. Were you there, Joe?
>
Hoessler was beaten and tortured and threatened so severly that he broke down
and became an hysterical wreck. His testimony in this connection is
incredible.
>> You know, you all keep carrying on about
>>these alleged gas chambers but can offer no budget or diagrams for their
>>construction and so on clearly labeled homicidal gas chamber--but I will go
>
>They've been offered and given so often in the newsgroup and on web
>pages that your blindness is self-imposed, Bellinger.
>
I have seen what you have offered and they donot support your claims. I fyou
were really interested in the truth, you would discuss these documents in full
with me or others, along with how they were authenticated. Bishoff's wife
denied any knowledge of the the existence of gas chambers. That is because she
did not listen to rumors like Kramer's wife.
>even further--even if there WERE such documents they STILL would not support
>>your claim and here is why----These camps served a number of different
>>purposes, among them being th elegal execution of criminals. In most
>countries
>>throughout the world, legal executions take place right at the prisons where
>>the condemned are housed. In the USA, we have lethal gas chambers directly
>>built in the prison facility and so on. You really have your work cut out
>for
>>you, and you are swimming against the current. You have nowhere to go but
>>under. I sympathize with you.
>
>Yawn.
>
Yawn, eh? Yet you know what I write is true, don't you? Will yo ever have the
honesty to admit and restore my faith in the mysterious personages referred to
justifiable as "Nizkooks?"
>
>>>The task was
>>>huge and some of these doctors didn't enjoy what they were doing. So
>>>the testimony above states that Grese's part was to keep "people from
>>>escaping or hiding" a
>>
>>Miss Grese was in charge of Appell. THus, it was her duty to see that
>people
>>did not escape from confinement, as it is the duty of every prison warder
>and
>>wardress in every penal institution throughout the world.
>So she shot them rather than take them back into line.
How can this be, Mike, seeing that she was not even given a gun untill two
months before Auschwitz was vacated? And that was only for SELF_DEFENSE and
not an authorization to shoot human beings on a whim. You will never prove
what you claim because there is no proof of it and there never was.
> Good show, Joe!
>You're starting to knee yourself in the mouth you are stomping so
>hard.
>
How so, Mike?
>
>>>and thus avoiding the eyes of the Doctors.
>>
>>Everyone had to be present for medical inspections. Period. This was not
>Miss
>>Grese's order, but her orders were to see that inmates were always present
>and
>>accounted for. There is noting sinister nor criminal in this.
>
>And the doctors came and performed selections for the gas chamber. She
>helped them do this. She's an accomplice.
SHe is NOT an accomplice even if this were true. Do you acknowledge Jews in
the service of assisting the Nazis accomplices too? Such as the Ghetto police
and so on? Grese was so low on the totem pole that she did not rate--period.
Furthermore, you have no convincing evidence to actually prove that doctors
made selections to gas people...this was a rumor not even confirmed by people
like Ella Reiner. The rumors were started by Hermann Langbein and associates.
>
>>>So she
>>>participated in the eyes of this witness as a conspirator to murder.
>>
>>Your witnesses needed glasses, for they took the liberty of adding horrors
>to
>>perfectly innocent activities.
>
>They were not my witnesses, Joe. I was not alive then.
But they are YOUR witnesses when you rely on their testimonies today to prove
your case.
>But hten it is
>rather funny when "my" witnesses agree with the Nazis who I guess are
>"your" witnesses. Grow up, Bellinger.
>
You grow up. These Nazis were beaten, tormented, and threatened. And most of
them denounced their testimonies later.
>>Others testified that she would point out folks to the doctors who, in
>>>her opinion, were gassable.
>>
>>That is their OPINION.
>
>It was their perception and it carried in court. Too bad for your
>witnesses. LOL!
Why are you laughing? Their perceptions are not proof.
> This hardly sustains a charge of murder, even if true,
>>for the doctor made the final decisions in who would be transferred to other
>>facilities due to illness.
>
>Stomp those feet, Bellinger.
OK. Are you stomping yours every time you cannot reply to a point?
>
>>>Try following along with the testimony
>>>Bellinger
>>
>>Don't give me advice you are not prepared to follow. I am more familiar
>with
>>these testimonies than you are.
>
>LOL!
>
I suppose that is all you CAN do at this point.
>
>>>and pay closer attention to what is said rather than what
>>>you want them to be saying.
>>
>>I do not place words in other people's mouths.
>
>LOL!
>Yawn.
>Mike Curtis
>
>
In other words, you concede defeat yet again.
Debunks
>Date: 12/17/98 10:08 PM EST
>Message-id: <368fbf22...@news3.ibm.net>
>
>In <19981217150117...@ng-fv1.aol.com>, on 17 Dec 1998
>20:01:17 GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
>
>[deleted]
>
>about
>> these alleged gas chambers but can offer no budget or diagrams for their
>> construction and so on clearly labeled homicidal gas chamber--but I will go
>support
>> your claim and here is why----These camps served a number of different
>> purposes, among them being th elegal execution of criminals. In most
>countries
>> throughout the world, legal executions take place right at the prisons
>where
>> the condemned are housed. In the USA, we have lethal gas chambers directly
>> built in the prison facility and so on. You really have your work cut out
>for
>> under. I sympathize with you.
>
>chambers because there is no extant document with the words "homicidal
>gas chamber" on it. Then, in case that doesn't hold up, it was
>perfectly normal for Auschwitz to have a gas chamber since they were
>legally executing prisoners. I guess that covers all the possibilities,
>doesn't it?
>
>But what does that have to do with the extensive documents posted by
>Mike Curtis that prove conclusively that Grese was guilty of murder?
>
>--
>Gord McFee
I have never seen them. Would you post them, please, and we can discuss it?
Debunks
>Message-id: <36795ef0...@news.sig.net>
>
>It was the plan of the Nazis to kill Jews. They were transported to be
>killed. It was premeditated. So you tell me, does that support first
>degree murder? In this country it does. Next question?
AHA! The Nizkook "Nazi Conspiracy" Gambit again? Which Nazis specifically
Mike?
Yale F. Edeiken
> >Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
> >Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 10:08 PM
> >Message-id: <19981218170811...@ng-fb1.aol.com>
> >>Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
> >>From: dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
> >>Date: 12/18/98 2:24 PM EST
> >>Message-id: <F46Dw...@world.std.com>
> >># No comment, Boger? Please supply the documentation for the
> >># "melting children", and the "torture" of the three SS-men.
> >># Funny you should ask, with all your claims of melting human
> >># fat in pits and so on.
> >>But the testimonies from Dresden speak of "four feet deep
> >>puddles of melted human flesh". That fat will melt and flow
> >>when a corpse is burned is a well-know fact. Everyone who
> >>made BBQ should understand this. Even Legace, the "revisionist
> >>expert on cremation", said that burning human fat may leak
> >>out of a cremation furnace which is not properly closed. But
> >>"melting flesh"? How can this be possible?
> >I have photos.
> That thud you heard was the sound of my jaw dropping. You have *photos*?!?
> Prithy, who took them? Why didn't the photographer melt? At that temperature,
> how did the film survive? How come the camera didn't burn up or scorch? At the
> very least, the lens should have cracked. Where were these photos printed,
> Booger? Or are you yet again holding onto vital wartime evidence that could
> prove every Revisionist contention--but not releasing it for insane reasons of
> your own? OR....are you just lying again?
You shouldn't be too surprised. At one time Jew-hating Joe claimed he had
pictures of the monuments at Auschwitz clearly stating that 4,000,000 JEWS were
murdered there. He further claimed that he wqas looking at them as he was posting.
Later he claimed that he had photographs (as well as medical reports and
eye witness statements) proving that Himmler was murdered.
Jew-hating Joe's imaginary photgraphs are always worth a giggle.
> Smart money is on "lying."
Naw. The Question is off the board. No-one wants to lay off the bet.
> >>Heck, Boger, he testified about the gas chambers in Natzweiler
> >>and Auschwitz-Birkenau. Stop lying so much.
> >Those bogus gas chambers? Try again.
> Yeah--the bogus chambers which exist only in testimony, memoir, diary, plans,
> blueprints, documents (shipping, purchase, memos, etc), ruins, and in a
> well-preserved state at Majdanek and other camps.
> Game, set, Booger's ass kicked again.
Yup. It's easy and it's fun.
"hello? antone out there 12-14 e-mail me. i am thirteen and . .
.well if you e-mail me at jbel...@sprynet.com you can find out more about me i
am a female."
DeppityBob
>>>You KNOW why so WHAT. Abe and his brother were two common criminals.
> DO
>>you
>>>always take the word of criminals?
>>
>>Source or is this further foot stomping from Bellinger?
>
>It has been posted numerous times in the past.
Well, that's bullshit.
>
>>>>Source?
>>>>
>>>
>>>Numerous sources. It wouldn't matter to you anyway.
>>
>>Neither does your foot stomping.
>>
>
>Go and refer to sources. Try Germany 1945-Barnouw.
Translation for the Booger-impaired: "I don't have a source."
>
>>>Grese had no guilt. You are confused.
>>
>>Look in your mirror to see who is really confused in this newsgroup.
>>
>
>Why should I look in the mirror? Send me your picture.
Neener neener.
>>
>>So far you have simply not provided any citations. Nothing new. Same
>>old Bellinger. Lots of foot stomping. Maybe we need to add a mouth
>>harp, a fiddle, and a banjo to accompany you.
>
>I gave you sources. I do not have time to run after your shadows.
Translation for the Booger-impaired: "I already lied once, what do you want?"
>>They suggest she helped them do it. Seems that these doctor clowns had
>>the final word. they could place them back on side that lived to work
>>as slaves.
>>
>
>There is no need to debate this. Matrons were not allowed to make selections.
>
>I posted their actual duties.
Ignoring, of course, every bit of testimony that contradicts this. But then
again, one must NEVER expect Booger to accept that his beauteous St. Irma was
anything but a saint. (By the way, Booger: You can't get a date with her. She's
dead and rotted.)
>>Because You say so. Isn't that right, Joe? You stomp those feet and
>>type in all caps but it is still stomping fet and a lot of
>>unsubstantiated noise.
>
>Not because I say so, though those are the methods by which you try to sustain
>your libel against Miss Grese--simply because the witnesses you refer us
>to
>SAID SO.
On the other hand, Booger (who was never there, and has only his roaring hots
for St. Irma to sustain him) knows better...because he WANTS to.
>
>>Excuuuuuuse me. they had to be selected first. Then they were gassed.
>
>No one was gassed, Mike.
Despite the existence of the remains of gas chambers, photos from the time,
blueprints, testimonies, memoirs, contemporary and current scientific
evaluations, extant traces of cyanic compounds, archaeological digs revealing
human remains where testimonies from the time SAID they would be... and on and
on...
>>Reread Hoessler's testimony that contradicts you second hand foot
>>stomping. I understand that Hoessler was there. Were you there, Joe?
>>
>
>Hoessler was beaten and tortured and threatened so severly that he broke
>down
>and became an hysterical wreck. His testimony in this connection is
>incredible.
Not that Booger can ever support this fantastic claim.
>>They've been offered and given so often in the newsgroup and on web
>>pages that your blindness is self-imposed, Bellinger.
>>
>
>I have seen what you have offered and they donot support your claims. I
>fyou
>were really interested in the truth, you would discuss these documents in
>full
>with me or others, along with how they were authenticated. Bishoff's wife
>denied any knowledge of the the existence of gas chambers. That is because
>she
>did not listen to rumors like Kramer's wife.
Translation for the Booger-impaired: "I hate it when people show me facts, so
I'll set up some impossible obstacles and toss a little bullshit in the way to
boot."
>
>>Yawn.
>>
>
>Yawn, eh? Yet you know what I write is true, don't you? Will yo ever have
>the
>honesty to admit and restore my faith in the mysterious personages referred
>to
>justifiable as "Nizkooks?"
Of course, this is what it's all about: Booger cannot rest until everyone has
fallen to their knees in supplication to his self-acknowledged vast wisdom.
What he doesn't understand, though, is that he is so transparent and so obtuse
that he can't even get respect from his OWN crowd, much less his opponents.
>
>
>>So she shot them rather than take them back into line.
>
>How can this be, Mike, seeing that she was not even given a gun untill two
>months before Auschwitz was vacated? And that was only for SELF_DEFENSE
>and
>not an authorization to shoot human beings on a whim. You will never prove
>what you claim because there is no proof of it and there never was.
According to Booger--not according to respected historians and testimonies of
the time.
>
>>They were not my witnesses, Joe. I was not alive then.
>
>But they are YOUR witnesses when you rely on their testimonies today to
>prove
>your case.
And they were used to prove the case against Irma Grese, who died with her toes
pointing at the ground.
>>It was their perception and it carried in court. Too bad for your
>>witnesses. LOL!
>
>Why are you laughing? Their perceptions are not proof.
Hell of a lot more than your stale, unsupported denials.
>>>>and pay closer attention to what is said rather than what
>>>>you want them to be saying.
>>>
>>>I do not place words in other people's mouths.
>>
>>LOL!
>
>>Yawn.
>>Mike Curtis
>>
>>
>
>In other words, you concede defeat yet again.
Poor Booger--he has to stick his comments into others' texts if he ever wants
to win anything.
Same old Booger--lame old Booger.
DeppityBob
Smart money is on "lying."
>
>>They have not allowed Jews to leave Europe since May 1941, and
>>it was not easy to leave before that.
>>
>
>It was VERY easy toleave as tens of thousands of Jews did so. Also, the
>only
>reason they were prohibited from emigrating after 41 is because of the war.
>
>1.5 million Jews already under arms for the allies was enough, I should
>think.
1.5 million? Interesting. And post-war, there were roughly 6 million missing.
Where'd the other 4.5 million go, Booger? You must have (or be able to invent)
an answer for this one.
>>
>>Why? Your Nazi heroes lost the war. They didn't have time to
>>kill all the Jews. We've been there already, have we not?
>
>They didn't have time to kill them all? They couldn't even kill all of
>the
>Jews living in Germany! That is why a Jewish resistance group was living
>foot
>loose and fancy free in Berlin in 1943!--and planning to kill Goebbels and
>blow
>up a public building!
"Footloose and fancy-free"? Like, they were hanging out at the delis, going to
temple, that kind of thing? You are such a nutcase. This canard--that if the
Nazis had intended to kill the Jews, they would all be dead--is the stupidest.
Do you think they could all be made to vanish simultaneously? That there was a
Kill-the-Jews switch somewhere that would simply "turn them all off"? No,
Booger, like any task, you have to start somewhere and end somewhere. They were
simply never able to complete the task because the Allies kicked Nazi ass.
>>But we know how many Jews were there in 1939, and in 1945, and
>>how many left during that period. And there are about six million
>>missing.
>>
>
>No, we do not know how many were there in 45. Those numbers have been
>concealed.
By whom? Is this more of the Great Conspiracy rearing its head--a conspiracy
involving millions of Jews, thousands of Nazis, thousands of Soviets, tons of
paper, and decades of planning--and about which not one scrap of evidence
exists? Clue in, Booger.
>>
>># He did deny them--to the very bitter end.
>>
>>Heck, Boger, he testified about the gas chambers in Natzweiler
>>and Auschwitz-Birkenau. Stop lying so much.
>>
>
>Those bogus gas chambers? Try again.
Yeah--the bogus chambers which exist only in testimony, memoir, diary, plans,
blueprints, documents (shipping, purchase, memos, etc), ruins, and in a
well-preserved state at Majdanek and other camps.
Game, set, Booger's ass kicked again.
Dep
Mark Van Alstine
(Debunks) wrote:
> >Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
> >From: dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
> >Date: 12/16/98 5:41 PM EST
> >Message-id: <F42xo...@world.std.com>
[snip]
> >In a post-war interview with Tom Segev, Rosina Kramer said that
> >her husband told her that they should thank the Lord that they
> >were not born as Jews, for then they would have to die.
>
> If that is true, then why were there so many survivors?
So many? In what context? Only about ten perent of the people deported to
Auschwitz survived. Even then the percentage was only that high for the
simple fact that Auschwitz was a labor camp (Au I and Au III) as well as
an extermination camp (Au II). For all practical purposes 100 percent of
the people deported to the Aktion Reinhard extermination camps perished.
Out of some 1.7 million people less than a hundred people survived.
Eastern Europe was, for all practical purposes, depopulated of Jews by the
Nazis. Poland, for example, lost over 90 percent of its Jewish population-
about three million people -to Nazi genocide.
[Boger Bullshit(tm) snipped]
For those interested in proof of Boger's irrelevant Nazi apologia,
Holocaust denial, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright
lies, please peruse DejaNews and visit the Nizkor Project at:
http://www.dejanews.com/
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/1997/blackmore.0197
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/1997/fafner13.0197
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-1
Mark
--
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line seperating good and
evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between
political parties--but right through every human heart--and all
human hearts." -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
FitugMix
junkets, and now it's payback time.
The Church has been completely infiltrated with False
Prophets and False Teachers. These Luciferians have "Judas
ministries" that lull their flock with heresies: such as being
raptured prior to the tribulation. This is being done so they
will not resist the coming genocide. They also fraternize with
Jews, and refer to Christianity as a Judeo-Christian movement.
This is an oxymoron: Jews are the enemies of the Gospel. Some
of the most blatant of these traitors of the Gospel are: Jack
Van Impe, Hal Lindsy, Paul Crouch, John Hagee, Pat Robertson,
Jerry Falwell, Brother Stair, and other tele-Evangelist engaged
in "end-times" prophesy. Oh! I almost forgot: include the Pope
in that list.
If your church is not actively fighting the international
Zionist conspiracy: get rid of those children of the devil, and
replace them with men of God. Let it be said when you stand
before Christ: well done good and faithful servant, instead of:
get out of my sight I never knew you. Jesus said: pickup your
cross and follow me. Throughout his ministry he contended with
the Jews. Eventually they were responsible for his crucifixion.
They said: let his death be on us, and our children. Remember:
the Bible says that God has no place in heaven for cowards. The
evidence of your faith, will be your works. Don't be deceived by
the false prophets, and false teachers: they tickle your ears
with an easy means of salvation, and many will chose to follow
them. The road to heaven is hard and rocky, not wide and easy.
The Jew is the child of the devil, who belongs to the
Synagogue of Satan -- Jesus Christ (jn.8:44, rv.2:9, 3:9).
At the end of the 1000 years Satan will be released, and
will seduce the nations of the earth prior to the end of the
world -- rv.20:7-15, ez.38, 39, 40.
Debunks
>Date: 12/18/98 8:12 PM EST
>Message-id: <19981218201251...@ng08.aol.com>
>
>>>>
>
>>It has been posted numerous times in the past.
>
>
>Well, that's bullshit.
>
It has been posted numerous times. If in doubt, refer to the Philips book
yourself. How is that? All the info is there.
>
>>>>>Source?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Numerous sources. It wouldn't matter to you anyway.
>>>
>>>Neither does your foot stomping.
>>>
>>
>>Go and refer to sources. Try Germany 1945-Barnouw.
>
>
>Translation for the Booger-impaired: "I don't have a source."
Did I not just GIVE you one?
>Translation for the Booger-impaired: "I already lied once, what do you want?"
>
I do not lie. revisionists, unlike Nizkooks, cannnot afford the luxury of
lying. besides, it runs counter to my own code of ethics.
>
>>I posted their actual duties.
>
>Ignoring, of course, every bit of testimony that contradicts this
What testimony might this be? There were rules which had to be observed in the
camps. These were some of them.
> But then
>again, one must NEVER expect Booger to accept that his beauteous St. Irma was
>anything but a saint. (By the way, Booger: You can't get a date with her.
>She's
>dead and rotted.)
I hear her body is as preserved as Bernadette of Lourdes.
>On the other hand, Booger (who was never there, and has only his roaring hots
>for St. Irma to sustain him) knows better...because he WANTS to.
>
You defend Anne Frank. Do you have the hots for her? Stop being ridiculous.
I also have defended Anne Frank. Will you suggest I have the hots for her too?
>>No one was gassed, Mike.
>
>Despite the existence of the remains of gas chambers
These were morgues, Bob.
> photos from the time,
Do not show gas chambers.
>blueprints,
Do not provide for construction of homicidal gas chambers.
> testimonie
Based upon rumors.
> memoirs,
Usually dictated.
>contemporary and current scientific
>evaluations
Which prove the revisionist case.
>xtant traces of cyanic compounds,
Compatible with only occasional delousing-not homicidal mass murder.
>archaeological digs revealing
>human remains where testimonies from the time SAID they would be... and on
>and
People died from epidemics, were cremated for sanitary reasons. End of story.
>
>>Hoessler was beaten and tortured and threatened so severly that he broke
>>down
>>and became an hysterical wreck. His testimony in this connection is
>>incredible.
>
>
>Not that Booger can ever support this fantastic claim.
>
I can and will support this as soon as I retrace the source. It is true.
>>
>>I have seen what you have offered and they donot support your claims. I
>>fyou
>>were really interested in the truth, you would discuss these documents in
>>full
>>with me or others, along with how they were authenticated. Bishoff's wife
>>denied any knowledge of the the existence of gas chambers. That is because
>>she
>>did not listen to rumors like Kramer's wife.
>
>Translation for the Booger-impaired: "I hate it when people show me facts, so
>I'll set up some impossible obstacles and toss a little bullshit in the way
>to
>boot."
>
Bullshit? It is in the trial record and recorded in the book on the Frankfurt
trial by Neumann.
>>Yawn, eh? Yet you know what I write is true, don't you? Will yo ever have
>>the
>>honesty to admit and restore my faith in the mysterious personages referred
>>to
>>justifiable as "Nizkooks?"
>
>
>Of course, this is what it's all about: Booger cannot rest until everyone has
>fallen to their knees in supplication to his self-acknowledged vast wisdom.
>What he doesn't understand, though, is that he is so transparent and so
>obtuse
>that he can't even get respect from his OWN crowd, much less his opponents.
>
Tell me what you know about "MY" crowd, and upon what specifics do you base
this erroneous statement of yours? In fact, I have a very good relationship
with most revisionists, even if we happen to disagree on tactics and so on/.
>And they were used to prove the case against Irma Grese, who died with her
>toes
>pointing at the ground.
As did Christ. Isaac Jogues fingernails were ripped from his fingers and died
by having his skull split open with a hatchet. St Joan of Arc was burned to
death at the stake. what is your point anyway?
>
>>Why are you laughing? Their perceptions are not proof.
>
>
>Hell of a lot more than your stale, unsupported denials.
I support everything I write,and you of allpeople know this for I have given
you source after source after source and I cannot recall your researching even
ONE of them. Care to enlighten the rest of us on this point?
Mark Van Alstine
(Debunks) wrote:
> >Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
> >From: mvan...@no-spam.netmail.home.com (Mark Van Alstine )
> >Date: 12/15/98 0:06 AM EST
> >Message-id: <mvanalst-141...@c678496-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com>
> >
> >In article <19981214225229...@ng-ft1.aol.com>, deb...@aol.com
> >(Debunks) wrote:
> >
> >> >Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
> >> >From: gmc...@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
> >> >Date: 12/14/98 10:27 PM EST
> >> >Message-id: <367fcc33...@news3.ibm.net>
> >> >
> >> >In <367567C2...@earthlink.net>, on Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:32:18
> >> >-0500, Richard Phillips <rgp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Philllips
> >> >>
> >> >> On the subject of Irma Griese, I'm not very passionate, one way or
> >another,
> >> >but I
> >> >> would like to know this: Can it be definitely established whether any
> >acts
> >> >she is
> >> >> alleged to have committed would be punishable by death in America.
> >> >
> >> >I am hurt, Richard. I already answered this question some time ago, and
> >> >you seem to have ignored it. Irma Grese was found guilty of murder,
> >> >which the last I heard was punishable by death in America.
> >> >
> >> >--
> >> >Gord McFee
> >>
> >> Too bad they never provided any evidence to go along with that guilty
> >verdict.
> >
> >Ah, but plenty of evidence of Grese's guilt was provided! It's just that
> >Boger the anti-Semitic lying scumbag Nazi apologist chooses to handwave it
> >away because Grese is his Nazi sex-goddess and he can't emotionally deal
> >with the fact that she was a sadistic murdering dyke bitch.
> >
>
> In other words, for those who know Nizkooks as well as I do, she was
> completely innocent of all charges against her, save striking bullying
inmates
> on rare occasions.
See! Boger the anti-Semitic lying scumbag Nazi apologist chooses to
handwave it away because Grese is his Nazi sex-goddess and he can't
emotionally deal with the fact that she was a sadistic murdering dyke
bitch. QED.
Mark Van Alstine
(Debunks) wrote:
> >Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
> >From: mi...@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
> >Date: 12/15/98 11:50 AM EST
> >Message-id: <367a92e5...@news.sig.net>
>
> SNIP
>
> It should be noted that Kramer, Hoessler andKlein had all been viciously
> beaten and threatened prior to their testimonies. Kramer wrote a letter
> to his wife explaining once again that he was innocent and was being charged
> simply because he was an SS member.
Says who? Boger the anti-Semitic lying scumbag Nazi apologist? Pfui.
Mark Van Alstine
(Debunks) wrote:
> >Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
> >From: mi...@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
> >Date: 12/15/98 11:48 AM EST
> >Message-id: <36799283...@news.sig.net>
> >
> >Richard Phillips <rgp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> >>But back to Griese. Could you give me a precis of the testimony against her.
> >How many
> >>people testified. Were they cross-examined?
> >>
> >>============================
> >
> >Now we move to the rest of the affidavits.
>
> SNIP
>
> DON'T BOTHER. None of these people were cross-examined on these charges.
> These statements are all worthless.
Debunks
>Date: 12/18/98 8:39 PM EST
>Message-id: <19981218203946...@ng08.aol.com>
>
>>Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
>>Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 10:08 PM
>>Message-id: <19981218170811...@ng-fb1.aol.com>
>>
Smart money will be coming my way then. The photos were taken AFTER the
firestorm, inside vehicles and so on. They are available, but only in German
text.
>
>>
>>1.5 million Jews already under arms for the allies was enough, I should
>>think.
>
>1.5 million? Interesting. And post-war, there were roughly 6 million missing.
>Where'd the other 4.5 million go, Booger? You must have (or be able to
>invent)
>an answer for this one.
>
Not only 1.5 million in LEGAL service in allied ranks, but an additional 1.5
million in the Partisan movement throughout Europe. That is a total of 3
million. SOURCE: Isaac Kowalski, former Jewish Partisan leader, author,
publisher.
>"Footloose and fancy-free"? Like, they were hanging out at the delis, going
>to
>temple, that kind of thing? You are such a nutcase. This canard--that if the
>Nazis had intended to kill the Jews, they would all be dead--is the
>stupidest.
>Do you think they could all be made to vanish simultaneously? That there was
>a
>Kill-the-Jews switch somewhere that would simply "turn them all off"? No,
>Booger, like any task, you have to start somewhere and end somewhere. They
>were
>simply never able to complete the task because the Allies kicked Nazi ass.
Foot loose and fancy free is the right term. Otherwise, how would you care to
explain the existance of the Herbert Baum terrorist group? Remember that tens
of thousands of Jews were still living in Germany at the end of the war, the
Jewish hospital in Berlin was still open and treating patients, and not ALL of
the Baum group was executed for their crimes. Now, don't you think the Nazis
would have started and completed their little extermination program by
beginning with people of this type?
>>No, we do not know how many were there in 45. Those numbers have been
>>concealed.
>
>By whom?
Zionists and Communists, for rather obvious reasons.
>By whom? Is this more of the Great Conspiracy rearing its head--a conspiracy
>involving millions of Jews, thousands of Nazis, thousands of Soviets, tons of
>paper, and decades of planning--and about which not one scrap of evidence
>exists? Clue in, Booger.
>
You have all the evidence you need in my Avenger posts.
>
>Yeah--the bogus chambers which exist only in testimony, memoir, diary, plans,
>blueprints, documents (shipping, purchase, memos, etc), ruins, and in a
>well-preserved state at Majdanek and other camps.
>
>Game, set, Booger's ass kicked again.
>
>Dep
>
Sorry dupe, they were all bogus or grossly and negligently misinterpreted.
Debunks
>Date: 12/18/98 12:47 PM EST
>Message-id: <367b2...@news3.enter.net>
>
>
SNIP
THEY ONLY SMEAR THE ONES THEY FEAR
Mark Van Alstine
(Debunks) wrote:
> >Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
> >From: ya...@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
> >Date: 12/16/98 7:11 AM EST
> >Message-id: <36783...@news3.enter.net>
> >
> >> deb...@aol.com (Debunks) writes:
> >> >Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
> >> >From: mi...@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
> >> >Date: 12/15/98 11:48 AM EST
> >> >Message-id: <36799283...@news.sig.net>
> >
> >> >Richard Phillips <rgp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> >> >>But back to Griese. Could you give me a precis of the testimony against
> >her.
> >> >How many
> >> >>people testified. Were they cross-examined?
> >
> >> >Now we move to the rest of the affidavits.
> >
> >> SNIP
> >
> >> DON'T BOTHER. None of these people were cross-examined on these charges.
> >These
> >> statements are all worthless.
> >
> > Jew-hating Joe once more proves he is unable to deal with evidence.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "hello? antone out there 12-14 e-mail me. i am thirteen and . .
> > .well if you e-mail me at jbel...@sprynet.com you can find out more about
> >me i
> > am a female."
> >
> > --YFE
> >
>
> And by Yale posting this ridiculous nonsense yet again....it is his
"signature"
> ....he only shows that once again he is incapable of dealing with the actual
> issues.
Debunks
>Message-id: <mvanalst-181...@c678496-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com>
>
>In article <19981215025158...@ng-fb1.aol.com>, deb...@aol.com
>(Debunks) wrote:
>
>> >Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
>> >Date: 12/15/98 0:06 AM EST
>> >Message-id: <mvanalst-141...@c678496-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com>
>> >
>> >(Debunks) wrote:
>> >
>> >> >Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
Not a word of truth in any of the above. Miss grese was in love with a man
named Hatchi.
Yale F. Edeiken
> >Message-id: <367b2...@news3.enter.net>
> SNIP
> THEY ONLY SMEAR THE ONES THEY FEAR
Yes, Jew-hating Joe, I'm so afraid of you that I have challenged you again
and again to present your foul ravings to an impartial forum. You, cowardly one are
the one goose-stepping away.
Keep rpetending Jew-hating Joe. Keep pretending.
"hello? antone out there 12-14 e-mail me. i am thirteen and . .
.well if you e-mail me at jbel...@sprynet.com you can find out more about me i
am a female."
--YFE
The Holocaust History Project is at http://www.holocaust-history.org/
DeppityBob
Yeah, RIGHT. Tell you what--you know that if anything, I am as good as my word,
right? Go to Kinko's and have just ONE of these photos scanned, then upload it
and send it to me. I'll send you the cost of the scanning AND do the encoding
and post it right here on AR. (I'd offer to do the scanning myself, but I have
doubts you would be willing to send an original to me.)
You can't find a better offer than that, Booger. Take me up on it. You'll come
out smelling like clean laundry.
DeppityBob
>> But then
>>again, one must NEVER expect Booger to accept that his beauteous St. Irma
>was
>>anything but a saint. (By the way, Booger: You can't get a date with her.
>>She's
>>dead and rotted.)
>
>I hear her body is as preserved as Bernadette of Lourdes.
Uhhhh....from what source? What I mean is....who's been checking?! (Eeeuuwww.)
Gord McFee
22:02:50 GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
> >Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
> >From: gmc...@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
> >Date: 12/17/98 3:53 PM EST
> >Message-id: <367b09f7...@news3.ibm.net>
> >
> >In <19981214225229...@ng-ft1.aol.com>, on 15 Dec 1998
> >03:52:29 GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
> >
> >> >Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
> >> >From: gmc...@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
> >> >Date: 12/14/98 10:27 PM EST
> >> >Message-id: <367fcc33...@news3.ibm.net>
> >> >
> >> >In <367567C2...@earthlink.net>, on Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:32:18
> >> >-0500, Richard Phillips <rgp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Philllips
> >> >>
> >> >> On the subject of Irma Griese, I'm not very passionate, one way or
> >another,
> >> >but I
> >> >> would like to know this: Can it be definitely established whether any
> >acts
> >> >she is
> >> >> alleged to have committed would be punishable by death in America.
> >> >
> >> >I am hurt, Richard. I already answered this question some time ago, and
> >> >you seem to have ignored it. Irma Grese was found guilty of murder,
> >> >which the last I heard was punishable by death in America.
> >>
> >> Too bad they never provided any evidence to go along with that guilty
> >verdict.
> >
> >Oh, "they" provided lots of evidence. The Germans provided lots of
> >evidence. Irma Grese provided lots of evidence. She was guilty all
> >right.
>
> Sorry to hear you feel that way about it. I maintain she was 100% innocent.
Joe, I don't feel any way about it. All I go by is the trial evidence
posted here by Mike Curtis and the verdict of the court. To me, the
execution of Grese is an historical fact, nothing more. And the proof
of her guilt is the same thing -- accumulation of physical and human
evidence. Convergence of evidence.
--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time
Visit the Holocaust History Project
http://www.holocaust-history.org
Visit the Nizkor site
http://www.nizkor.org
Gord McFee
22:23:57 GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
> >But hten it is
> >rather funny when "my" witnesses agree with the Nazis who I guess are
> >"your" witnesses. Grow up, Bellinger.
> >
>
> You grow up. These Nazis were beaten, tormented, and threatened. And most of
> them denounced their testimonies later.
You don't see how incredible this sounds? It means that in all the
trials -- and there were dozens -- *all* the Germans were tortured and
beaten up and/or their families were threatened and *all* the survivors
lied. It defies belief.
Daniel Keren
# From: dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren):
## But "melting flesh"? How can this be possible?
# I have photos.
Post them.
### The torture of Hoessler may have been referred to in the
### book, Victor's Justice, By Belgion.
## Oh. Finally something, alas not too much. "may have been
## referred". Not good enough. What about Klein and Kramer?
# Probably the same source. You might also want to check
# out Sington's book.
You made the claim, Boger, you post the evidence.
## They have not allowed Jews to leave Europe since May
## 1941, and it was not easy to leave before that.
# It was VERY easy to leave as tens of thousands of Jews did so.
That a small fraction escaped means nothing; what counts is
that the Nazi policy was *not* to allow Jews to leave.
## Why? Your Nazi heroes lost the war. They didn't have time to
## kill all the Jews. We've been there already, have we not?
# They didn't have time to kill them all?
No. They lost the war, remember?
# They couldn't even kill all of the Jews living in Germany!
They did kill the large majority of them.
# That is why a Jewish resistance group was living foot
# loose and fancy free in Berlin in 1943!--and planning to
# kill Goebbels and blow up a public building!
If true, pity they didn't kill the rabid little dog. Then,
he wouldn't have been able to poison his six children like
rats (but, oh, you say he was right to do that). Please post
details about this alleged group of Jews.
### He [Kramer] did deny them--to the very bitter end.
##
## Heck, Boger, he testified about the gas chambers in
## Natzweiler and Auschwitz-Birkenau. Stop lying so much.
# Those bogus gas chambers? Try again.
So, you lied abut Kramer, and now you try to divert the
topic by referring to the "bogus" gas chambers?
-Danny Keren.
DeppityBob
>>But what does that have to do with the extensive documents posted by
>>Mike Curtis that prove conclusively that Grese was guilty of murder?
>>
>>--
>>Gord McFee
>
>I have never seen them. Would you post them, please, and we can discuss
>it?
That wouldn't be the ones you just responded to extensively within the last few
days, would they, Booger?
Pffft. Another Booger evasion.
DeppityBob
>>>SNIP
>>>
>>>It should be noted that Kramer, Hoessler andKlein had all been viciously
>>>beaten
>>>and threatened prior to their testimonies. Kramer wrote a letter to his
>>>wife
>>>explaining once again that he was innocent and was being charged simply
>>>because
>>>he was an SS member.
>>
>>text, no works, no citations, no proof. However, there is much evidence,
>>including the words of the condemned, of their guilt. Go ahead and ask
>Booger
>>for a quote--author, title, publisher, page number, quote marks, the whole
>>nine
>>yards--and what you'll get is evasion. But then again, that's Booger.
>>
>>Dep
>>
>
>How is that one volume library of yours doing?
Isn't it you who's been howling "THEY ONLY SMEAR THE ONES THEY FEAR"? Shoe's on
the other foot, and it appears to be a comfy fit to boot.
Debunks
>Date: 12/19/98 8:28 PM EST
>Message-id: <19981219202857...@ng143.aol.com>
>
>>
>>>>SNIP
>>>>
>>>>It should be noted that Kramer, Hoessler andKlein had all been viciously
>>>>beaten
>>>>and threatened prior to their testimonies. Kramer wrote a letter to his
>>>>wife
>>>>explaining once again that he was innocent and was being charged simply
>>>>because
>>>>he was an SS member.
>>>
>>>It should be noted that Booger has no substantiation for this
>whatsoever--no
>>>text, no works, no citations, no proof. However, there is much evidence,
>>>including the words of the condemned, of their guilt. Go ahead and ask
>>Booger
>>>for a quote--author, title, publisher, page number, quote marks, the whole
>>>nine
>>>yards--and what you'll get is evasion. But then again, that's Booger.
>>>
>>>Dep
>>>
>>
>>How is that one volume library of yours doing?
>
>Isn't it you who's been howling "THEY ONLY SMEAR THE ONES THEY FEAR"? Shoe's
>on
>the other foot, and it appears to be a comfy fit to boot.
>
>Dep
I repeat: How's that one volume library of yours coming along?
Debunks
>From: deppi...@aol.com....plex (DeppityBob)
>Message-id: <19981219195813...@ng143.aol.com>
>
>>
>>>But what does that have to do with the extensive documents posted by
>>>Mike Curtis that prove conclusively that Grese was guilty of murder?
>>>
>>>--
>>>Gord McFee
>>
>>I have never seen them. Would you post them, please, and we can discuss
>>it?
>
>That wouldn't be the ones you just responded to extensively within the last
>few
>days, would they, Booger?
>
Obviously NOT, because what he posted was proveable dreck.
Debunks
>Date: 12/19/98 3:48 PM EST
>Message-id: <F48CG...@world.std.com>
>
>Joe "Boger" Bellinger, posting as "Debunks", writes:
># From: dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren):
>
>## But "melting flesh"? How can this be possible?
>
># I have photos.
>
>Post them.
No scanner.
>### The torture of Hoessler may have been referred to in the
>### book, Victor's Justice, By Belgion.
>
>## Oh. Finally something, alas not too much. "may have been
>## referred". Not good enough. What about Klein and Kramer?
>
># Probably the same source. You might also want to check
># out Sington's book.
>
>You made the claim, Boger, you post the evidence.
The torture of Hoess can be inferred from numerous sources, including the book
I referred you to as well as Derrick Sington's book on Belsen.
>post the evidence.
>
>## They have not allowed Jews to leave Europe since May
>## 1941, and it was not easy to leave before that.
>
># It was VERY easy to leave as tens of thousands of Jews did so.
>
>That a small fraction escaped means nothing; what counts is
>that the Nazi policy was *not* to allow Jews to leave.
>
Sorry Dan, but Nazi policy WAS to allow Jews to leave--it had BEEN the policy
since the formation of the Party, and was only delayed due to the war. There
were no homicidal gas chambers.
>## Why? Your Nazi heroes lost the war. They didn't have time to
>## kill all the Jews. We've been there already, have we not?
>
># They didn't have time to kill them all?
>
>No. They lost the war, remember?
But they had plenty of time to kill them all before the war ended, Danny.
Golly, how could they have killed them? Let me count the ways...
1. Mass electrocution
2. Steaming to death
3. Floors which open and reveal a huge gaping grave to swallow them up
4. Homicidal gas chambers
5. Lethal injections
6. Starvation
7. Sterilization
8. Mass shooting
9. Gas vans
on and on and on ad infinitum.
># They couldn't even kill all of the Jews living in Germany!
>
>They did kill the large majority of them.
>
No, dan, the large majority of them were encouraged to EMIGRANT and they
did-mainly to the US and Palestine.
># That is why a Jewish resistance group was living foot
># loose and fancy free in Berlin in 1943!--and planning to
># kill Goebbels and blow up a public building!
>
>If true, pity they didn't kill the rabid little dog.
Well, their little plot failed nonetheless--but it is true that Goebbels was no
lover of Jews.
>Then,
>he wouldn't have been able to poison his six children like
>rats (
Yeh- spoiled the fun those child raping Soviets might have had, eh?
>but, oh, you say he was right to do that).
And you say he should have left his little children to the Soviets. How
generous and benvolent of you. Tell me somethig Dan--did the Jews leave Jewish
children in the hands of kind Gentiles who adopted them and cared for them
during the war?
>Please post
>details about this alleged group of Jews.
I have--NUMEROUS times, but if you REALLY insist-I have it saved on disk. Ask
once more and you shall receive.
>### He [Kramer] did deny them--to the very bitter end.
>##
>## Heck, Boger, he testified about the gas chambers in
>## Natzweiler and Auschwitz-Birkenau. Stop lying so much.
>
># Those bogus gas chambers? Try again.
>
>So, you lied abut Kramer, and now you try to divert the
>topic by referring to the "bogus" gas chambers?
>
I never lie, Dan, so I could hardly have lied about Kramer.
Debunks
>From: gmc...@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
>Date: 12/19/98 1:27 PM EST
>Message-id: <36802edf...@news3.ibm.net>
>
>In <19981218172357...@ng-fb1.aol.com>, on 18 Dec 1998
>22:23:57 GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
>
>> >But hten it is
>> >rather funny when "my" witnesses agree with the Nazis who I guess are
>> >"your" witnesses. Grow up, Bellinger.
>> >
>>
>> You grow up. These Nazis were beaten, tormented, and threatened. And most
>of
>> them denounced their testimonies later.
>
>You don't see how incredible this sounds? It means that in all the
>trials -- and there were dozens -- *all* the Germans were tortured and
>beaten up and/or their families were threatened and *all* the survivors
>lied. It defies belief.
>
>--
>Gord McFee
Unfortunately it is true, and I can refer you to numerous authorities which
cite specific incidents, but I really do not believe you care.
Debunks
>From: gmc...@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
>Date: 12/19/98 1:27 PM EST
>
>In <19981218170250...@ng-fb1.aol.com>, on 18 Dec 1998
>22:02:50 GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
>
>> >Message-id: <367b09f7...@news3.ibm.net>
>> >
>> >In <19981214225229...@ng-ft1.aol.com>, on 15 Dec 1998
>> >03:52:29 GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
>> >
Perhaps you really do believe this. I do not know. But I do know that "I"
personally have no problem with calling a spade a spade or assigning guilt when
I feel a case has been proved beyond a reasonable doubt--whether it be against
Jews, Germans, or even Communists--yet I have to say that the first part of
your statement I agree with--how could I not? the trial and sentence are a
fact--it is all the rubbish in between which defies credibility. The witnesses
were not credible--and I have read them all--hence I was compelled to weigh the
testimony that was offered and in the end I had to reject it as perjury. It is
that simple. I read it, and applied the same common sense one should use when
sitting in on any trial for homicide. Grese should have walked. Kramer should
have received a jail sentence.
Debunks
>Date: 12/19/98 2:55 AM EST
>Message-id: <19981219025533...@ng101.aol.com>
>
>>
>>>>># No comment, Boger? Please supply the documentation for the
>>>>># "melting children", and the "torture" of the three SS-men.
>>>>>
>>>>># Funny you should ask, with all your claims of melting human
>>>>># fat in pits and so on.
>>>>>
>>>>>But the testimonies from Dresden speak of "four feet deep
>>>>>puddles of melted human flesh". That fat will melt and flow
>>>>>when a corpse is burned is a well-know fact. Everyone who
>>>>>made BBQ should understand this. Even Legace, the "revisionist
>>>>>expert on cremation", said that burning human fat may leak
>>>>>"melting flesh"? How can this be possible?
>>>>
You're on. Send me your mailing address.
Debunks
>Message-id: <367b3...@news3.enter.net>
>> >Date: 12/18/98 12:47 PM EST
>> >Message-id: <367b2...@news3.enter.net>
>
>> SNIP
>
>
again
>and again to present your foul ravings to an impartial forum. You, cowardly
>one are
>the one goose-stepping away.
>
Yes, perhaps I am goose-stepping away, but I am not STUPID enough to
goose-step into one of your silly little kangaroo courts.
>
> Keep rpetending Jew-hating Joe. Keep pretending.
>
>
>
>
>
> "hello? antone out there 12-14 e-mail me. i am thirteen and . .
> .well if you e-mail me at jbel...@sprynet.com you can find out more about
>me i
> am a female."
>
> --YFE
Still trolling for my niece, Yale?
DeppityBob
>Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 6:36 AM
>Message-id: <19981220013651...@ng-ft1.aol.com>
>
>>Subject: Re: Irma Grese--Judgment and Execution
Are you saying you'll send me the originals to be scanned? If you are, I will
DEFINITELY send you my mailing address. Let me know.
DeppityBob
>># Probably the same source. You might also want to check
>># out Sington's book.
>>
>>You made the claim, Boger, you post the evidence.
>
>The torture of Hoess can be inferred from numerous sources, including the
>book
>I referred you to as well as Derrick Sington's book on Belsen.
"Can be inferred"? In other words, it doesn't actually say so anywhere, does
it, Booger?
He's in the corner! He's on the mat! HE'S PINNED! Chalk up one more defeat
for.... BOOGER!!!