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KZ-DEATH: PCHYSOMATIC DISEASE (NOT GAS)

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Bo Warming

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Jun 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/18/97
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The medias and the schools brainwash us, that vaccination and hygiene
has eradicated infectious disease gloriously.
The decline of the formerly large epidemics came earlier than these
innovations were marketed and many researchers agree, that
selfconfidence give immunological resistance,
thus the teknolocal improvements 1800-1950 may have caused most
eradication of disease, simply by creating optimism and a rich life
(including a better diet).

Soldiers are unemployed looser men, to a large extent, and when placed
in camps without the incentive of fighting, they often get sick for
psychosomatic reasons.
Typhus killed more of Napoleon s troops in Russia, than did the
battles. Similarly in the US Civil War , and in many medieval
European wars, epidemics have decided the outcome
- but this is no good heroic media-story to tell, and thus it is
forgotten.

When Jews were taken out of Germany and certain occupied territories
around 1942 , USA could easily have offered to rescue them - and they
would all have survived.
Germans and Poles did not consider the Jews to be Europeans, and might
have had some justification for holding this opinion.
Why did not USA offer to receive these abandoned unpopular
non-citizens
Did they want an excuse to punish the loosing part in the war
- Germany- who had been stupid enough to underestimate the
war-manufacturing potential of USA ?

Did USA care much more about winning the war and giving the enemy bad
PR,
than they cared about Jewish lives ?.
The "ship of shame" and the refusal of Denmark and other countries
close to Germany to take Jewish -German refugees before the war, made
it clear that if you did not have the money for at bribe into USA
("friends") you had to stay with the nazis.
In Polen and West Russia the Jews were also divided into 2 groups -
the winners that could be used by Stalin for his production of war
goods deep into safe Russia
- they were deported by trains by the millions ( these millions are
included in the famous "6 killed" !) and the "loosers " that had to
stay in the gettoes and they were most unpopular among their Polish
neighbors and had extremely low selfconfidence.
They had a lot more old people among them, and this is a main reason
why so many of them died before 1945 (and perhaps most of them would
have died anyway of old age and war-stress :
- remember that in the 30-years war TWO THIRDS of Germanys population
died , most of these not from battles
- and when Denmark received ¼ million German refugees from
Stalin-occupied-territories february-1945-1947 and fed and housed them
very well, 10 % of them died from stress and disease.)
- .
"The gathered unhealthy weak and old " among European Jewry were
placed in camps. Hitler hoped to ship them abroad, but nobody would
take them.
His young nazis were revengeful against the Jews and thus work camps
were the compromise reached by the party.
BUT BOREDOM GIVES TYPHUS and other infectious diseases (TB,
dysenteria, etc etc.) and the infections killed more and more
kz-prisoners
- especially when they had no hope and optimism, since little chance
of returning to normal life.
Knowing that they had been left behind by winner-Jews , who often had
money and could have helped them ,
must have contributed enormeously to the depressions and other
suicidal thinking of the imprisoned Jews.
Learning to perform manual work might in fact have been an exciting
challenge and a life prolonging feature in the camp life of the looser
Jews.!
Since records of Jews in the occupied cuntries have been swindled with
to reach the number 6 million
and the traces of the swindle has been carefully destroyed,
we have no hope of ever finding the correct number.
The accused should have the benefit of the coubt and the burden of
proof is on the accuser
- estimating ½ million dead Jews is probably far too high.
If it is 50000-100000 dead Jews, half of them might have died anyway
during the time span due to old age and stress and disease unavoidable
in a war..
Of the remaining few ten thousands, some hundreds may have been
executed by gunfire,
to terrorize the rest into good behaviour.
Most Jews that died in young age - as Anne Frank died long time after
imprisonment - and died of exactly some of the many partly psychomatic
disease(typhus and scabies) that has always been great killers in
wars.

Putting people in camps did not always have such high death toll due
to infections.
Japanese in similar camps in California survived much better - not
because of better treatment, but because they had complete gathered
families (and a normal age distribution) and thus selfconfidence
- the Jews dying under German supervision were abandoned by their
families.
Also the imprisoned communists in Dachau had much more hope,
and therefore much better chance of survival.

But Himmler soon learned that the Jews in the camps got typhus.
He instructed for better health facilities, including delousing
chambers for laundry and burning the dead in stead of burying them.
That might have helped a little.
Since it did not stop the epidemics, he should - from a modern point
of view - have freed the Jews .
But it was war ! What options did he have ? The Versailles treaty had
forced him to revive the country dramatically, and this could only be
done by making Jews a scapegoat , and now he was a prisoner of that
propaganda and could not reverse the racist bullies in his party.
The conclusion that truthseeking historians would soon have reached,
if academic and media freedom were in place, would have been that
planned killing is no fair accusation - civilisan casualities of war
is a more accurate description..

---
Proofs are antidotes against the poison of eywitnesses Francis Bacon

The history of our race, and each individual's experience, are
sown thick with evidence that a truth is not hard to kill and that a
lie told well is inmortal. Mark Twain

History is a set of lies agreed upon + >> HISTORY IS FICTION
TO WHICH REALITY SUPPLY RAWMATERIALS <<. Napoleon
Bonaparte+>>Hans Magnus Enzenberger<<

Every nation mocks the other, and everybody is right.
Schoppenhauer

History will be kind to me for I intend to write it.+>>The
victor will never be asked if he told the truth<<
WinstonChurchill+ >>AdolfHitler<< , respectively

Til historiens ufuldkommenhed kommer yderligere, at Klio,
historiens muse, er lige så genneminficeret af løgn som glædespigen af
syfilisTO THE FALLACIES OF HISTORY BELONG; THAT KLIO; THE MUSE ; IS AS
INFECTED BY LIE AS THE WHORE BY SYFILIS Schopenhauer

Øjenvidner genkender ofte forbrydere de ikke har set. EYEWITNESES
RECOGNIZES CRIMINALS THEY HAVE NEVER SEEN Illustreret Videnskab
nr. 7/97 p22

The people of Germany are just as responsible for Hitler as
the people of Chicago are for The Chicago Tribune.
Alexander Woollcott

Selv om 50 millioner mennesker siger noget tåbeligt, er det
stadig tåbeligt. EVEN IF 50 MILLION PEOPLE SAY SOMETHING
FOOLISH, IT IS STILL FOOLISH Anatole France

Forgiveness is the key to action and freedom. Hannah
Arendt

Once lead this people into war and they will forget there ever
was such a thing as tolerance. Woodrow Wilson

`In spite of everything I still believe that people are really
good at heart.' Anne Frank l
Great minds are sceptical. Convictions are prisons.
Nietzsche

Bo Warming , war...@image.dk, http://www.glistrup.com

Bo Warming, war...@image.dk, http://www.glistrup.com

Klaus Günther Beck

unread,
Jun 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/19/97
to

Bo Warming wrote:
>

Another so-called historian tries to explain why the holocaust didn´t
happen. Apart from him being a liar, he is at least quite imaginative.
Read on. It is interesting fiction:

> The medias and the schools brainwash us, that vaccination and hygiene
> has eradicated infectious disease gloriously.

No, they actually tell us for years that news to this tenor have been
premature. Perhaps he should read a newspaper that is newer than 10
years;)

> The decline of the formerly large epidemics came earlier than these
> innovations were marketed and many researchers agree, that
> selfconfidence give immunological resistance,
> thus the teknolocal improvements 1800-1950 may have caused most
> eradication of disease, simply by creating optimism and a rich life
> (including a better diet).

Especially when people where overly optimistic in WW I, WW II etc. He
describes in part the most pessimistic time in human history as
optimistic. Ah, right. Nazi-Germany was all fun and play and so they all
were quite optimistic, right? Get real man. I mean my grandfather had
really fun under the Nazis.

>
> Soldiers are unemployed looser men, to a large extent,

Hey, You just offended the losers that make up the bulk of Your
followers. Well done. I do not mean soldier but this unemployed
drunkards with their shaved haeds. But they do not read anyway, right?

and when placed
> in camps without the incentive of fighting, they often get sick for
> psychosomatic reasons.

Yes, it is called alkoholism.

> Typhus killed more of Napoleon s troops in Russia, than did the
> battles. Similarly in the US Civil War , and in many medieval
> European wars, epidemics have decided the outcome
> - but this is no good heroic media-story to tell, and thus it is
> forgotten.

Sure. It is all forgotten. There are no stories about deseases that
branded Europe through the centuries. I mean, I study history. And
everybody who wants to read about the history of deseases can do so. The
newsmagazines brought articles and article-series since the start of
public interest in ebola, hanta etc. I forgot. You do not read news.
Sorry.

>
> When Jews were taken out of Germany and certain occupied territories
> around 1942 , USA could easily have offered to rescue them - and they
> would all have survived.
> Germans and Poles did not consider the Jews to be Europeans, and might
> have had some justification for holding this opinion.

Exactly none justification. Judaism is a religion not a ethnic feature.

> Why did not USA offer to receive these abandoned unpopular
> non-citizens
> Did they want an excuse to punish the loosing part in the war
> - Germany- who had been stupid enough to underestimate the
> war-manufacturing potential of USA ?
>
> Did USA care much more about winning the war and giving the enemy bad
> PR,
> than they cared about Jewish lives ?.
> The "ship of shame" and the refusal of Denmark and other countries
> close to Germany to take Jewish -German refugees before the war, made
> it clear that if you did not have the money for at bribe into USA
> ("friends") you had to stay with the nazis.
> In Polen and West Russia the Jews were also divided into 2 groups -
> the winners that could be used by Stalin for his production of war
> goods deep into safe Russia
> - they were deported by trains by the millions ( these millions are
> included in the famous "6 killed" !) and the "loosers " that had to
> stay in the gettoes and they were most unpopular among their Polish
> neighbors and had extremely low selfconfidence.

Well, here might be some facts. BUt mark, please, that he tells us
things that try to relatify German atrocities without any real
connection to the point he leads up to. He argues quite cleverly, but
this way to build an argument is not scientific but propagandistic.

> They had a lot more old people among them, and this is a main reason
> why so many of them died before 1945 (and perhaps most of them would
> have died anyway of old age and war-stress :
> - remember that in the 30-years war TWO THIRDS of Germanys population
> died , most of these not from battles

First: One dies not from battles but in battles. Second: Your numbers
are pure fiction.And the age-distribution he describes is pure fiction
too.

> - and when Denmark received ¼ million German refugees from
> Stalin-occupied-territories february-1945-1947 and fed and housed them
> very well, 10 % of them died from stress and disease.)

Yes, because many of them should have been near death as they arrived in
Denmark. So this proves exactly nothing.

> - .
> "The gathered unhealthy weak and old " among European Jewry were
> placed in camps. Hitler hoped to ship them abroad, but nobody would
> take them.
> His young nazis were revengeful against the Jews and thus work camps
> were the compromise reached by the party.

Well, this is a lie. The anti-semitic sentiments had been created by the
party and the camps were for killing people on a industrial scale from
the beginning.

> BUT BOREDOM GIVES TYPHUS and other infectious diseases (TB,
> dysenteria, etc etc.) and the infections killed more and more
> kz-prisoners

Boredom doesn´t give typhus, no matter how big You print it. You know,
infections come from this little things called bacteria and viruses. And
the corpse surely didn´t look like the victims from an epidemic. They
normally do not have gun-wounds for example.

> - especially when they had no hope and optimism, since little chance
> of returning to normal life.
> Knowing that they had been left behind by winner-Jews , who often had
> money and could have helped them ,
> must have contributed enormeously to the depressions and other
> suicidal thinking of the imprisoned Jews.

This is so disgusting I won´t comment on it. I hope everybody can see
that he is lying.

> Learning to perform manual work might in fact have been an exciting
> challenge and a life prolonging feature in the camp life of the looser
> Jews.!

Yeah. Right. You´re fascistic friends tell us the Jews took all the
money from the Germans. Not bad for a bunch of losers. Might be the
reason why they can go to court to get property confiscated by the Nazis
back and why they have this little trouble with the Swiss banks. Oh, I
forgot again. You do not read newspapers.

> Since records of Jews in the occupied cuntries have been swindled with
> to reach the number 6 million
> and the traces of the swindle has been carefully destroyed,
> we have no hope of ever finding the correct number.
> The accused should have the benefit of the coubt and the burden of
> proof is on the accuser
> - estimating ½ million dead Jews is probably far too high.

Well, this section shows that the writer cannot get his numbers right
and that he has serious trouble with his orthography. Which devalues his
"argument" in itself.

> If it is 50000-100000 dead Jews, half of them might have died anyway
> during the time span due to old age and stress and disease unavoidable
> in a war..
> Of the remaining few ten thousands, some hundreds may have been
> executed by gunfire,
> to terrorize the rest into good behaviour.

Let me think. You shoot a few hundred to terrorize the rest into good
behaviour. That is of course morally acceptable. Boy, You make me puke.
And it really doesn´t matter if 50.000 or 6.000.000 died. The "few
hundred" gunned down are too much to begin with. We are speaking about
human lives here You asshole. You are haggling about numbers. Which is
not the issue. The issue is the killing of a whole lot of people. And
that is wrong. No matter if one dies, ten die, hundreds die, Millions
die. It is always wrong.

> Most Jews that died in young age - as Anne Frank died long time after
> imprisonment - and died of exactly some of the many partly psychomatic
> disease(typhus and scabies) that has always been great killers in
> wars.

If You make a statement like that you should try to prove it. ( Which of
course isn´t possible because it is a lie. )

>
> Putting people in camps did not always have such high death toll due
> to infections.
> Japanese in similar camps in California survived much better - not
> because of better treatment,

oh, George Takei wrote in his autobiography of his time in this camp.
And he certainly wouldn´t call them "similar".

but because they had complete gathered
> families (and a normal age distribution) and thus selfconfidence
> - the Jews dying under German supervision were abandoned by their
> families.
> Also the imprisoned communists in Dachau had much more hope,
> and therefore much better chance of survival.
>
> But Himmler soon learned that the Jews in the camps got typhus.
> He instructed for better health facilities, including delousing
> chambers for laundry and burning the dead in stead of burying them.

First: He wanted them killed. Second: He didn´t order the building of
health facilities ( You command of English leaves much to be desired. ).
Third: There were a lot of mass-graves near the concentration-camps. The
above section is one solid lie.

> That might have helped a little.
> Since it did not stop the epidemics, he should - from a modern point
> of view - have freed the Jews .
> But it was war ! What options did he have ? The Versailles treaty had
> forced him to revive the country dramatically, and this could only be
> done by making Jews a scapegoat

HE ADMITS THAT THE JEWS HAVE BEEN USED AS SCAPEGOATS!!!! Attention. He
really did it.

, and now he was a prisoner of that
> propaganda and could not reverse the racist bullies in his party.

Like Adolf Hitler himself, for example?

> The conclusion that truthseeking historians would soon have reached,
> if academic and media freedom were in place,

Trust me, they are.

would have been that
> planned killing is no fair accusation

Trust me, it is.

- civilisan casualities of war
> is a more accurate description..

Orthography and punctuation and the truth violated in one half-sentence.
Not bad.
>

HERE FOLLOWS AN ENDLESS LIST OF CITATIONS OUT OF CONTEXT TO PROVE
SOMETHING THE WRITERS WOULD NEVER HAVE AGREED TO.

> ---
> Proofs are antidotes against the poison of eywitnesses Francis Bacon
>

Well, You gave us a fiction. No proof. So You better use another
citation.

> The history of our race, and each individual's experience, are
> sown thick with evidence that a truth is not hard to kill and that a
> lie told well is inmortal. Mark Twain

Which it might have been had Hitler won the war.

>
> History is a set of lies agreed upon + >> HISTORY IS FICTION
> TO WHICH REALITY SUPPLY RAWMATERIALS <<. Napoleon
> Bonaparte+>>Hans Magnus Enzenberger<<
>
> Every nation mocks the other, and everybody is right.
> Schoppenhauer

This is not a good one. It says nothing.

>
> History will be kind to me for I intend to write it.+>>The
> victor will never be asked if he told the truth<<
> WinstonChurchill+ >>AdolfHitler<< , respectively
>
> Til historiens ufuldkommenhed kommer yderligere, at Klio,
> historiens muse, er lige så genneminficeret af løgn som glædespigen af
> syfilisTO THE FALLACIES OF HISTORY BELONG; THAT KLIO; THE MUSE ; IS AS
> INFECTED BY LIE AS THE WHORE BY SYFILIS Schopenhauer
>
> Øjenvidner genkender ofte forbrydere de ikke har set. EYEWITNESES
> RECOGNIZES CRIMINALS THEY HAVE NEVER SEEN Illustreret Videnskab
> nr. 7/97 p22
>
> The people of Germany are just as responsible for Hitler as
> the people of Chicago are for The Chicago Tribune.
> Alexander Woollcott
>
> Selv om 50 millioner mennesker siger noget tåbeligt, er det
> stadig tåbeligt. EVEN IF 50 MILLION PEOPLE SAY SOMETHING
> FOOLISH, IT IS STILL FOOLISH Anatole France
>
> Forgiveness is the key to action and freedom. Hannah
> Arendt
>
> Once lead this people into war and they will forget there ever
> was such a thing as tolerance. Woodrow Wilson
>
> `In spite of everything I still believe that people are really
> good at heart.' Anne Frank l

To use her here is obscene.

> Great minds are sceptical. Convictions are prisons.
> Nietzsche

See, the Nazis were quite convinced that the Jews were the enemy.

Ole Kreiberg

unread,
Jun 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/23/97
to

[Follow-ups set to soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism]

In article <5obq8s$5ak$1...@news00.btx.dtag.de>, Klaus Günther Beck wrote:


>Bo Warming wrote:
>
>> Typhus killed more of Napoleon s troops in Russia, than did the
>> battles. Similarly in the US Civil War , and in many medieval
>> European wars, epidemics have decided the outcome
>> - but this is no good heroic media-story to tell, and thus it is
>> forgotten.
>
>Sure. It is all forgotten.
>
>There are no stories about deseases that
>branded Europe through the centuries. I mean, I study history.

You have not studied history careful enough then.
An example from the American civil war:
Out of a total of 359,528 Union deaths from all causes, 110,070 were from
combat but 224,586 were from desease. Of the deaths, 44,000 were from
"diarrhea and dysentery, acute and chronic" and 34,883 were "typhoid,
typho-malarial , and continued fevers"

Sources: Stewart Brooks, Civil War Medicine (Springfield, Ill.: Charles C.
Thomas, 1966),p 126.
Paul Steiner, Disease in the Civil War (Springfield, Ill: Charles C. Thomas,
1968) p.10.

During the Crimean War (1854-56) 12,604 men in the French army died from
wounds whereas 59,815 died from sickness. For the English, 4602 died from
wounds whereas 17,225 dies from sickness. By contrast, although 35,671
Russians died from wounds, only 37,454 died from sickness.

Source: Fielding H. Garrison, Notes on the History of Military Medicine
(Washington: Association of Military Surgeons, 1922) pp. 171-2.

The catastrophe which befell the army of Napoleon, which had originally
numbered 500,000 men [in the campaign in Russia], was completely sealed
with pestilence. During the initial advance, in one battle, four-fifth of
the men became casualties from desease. In moscow, which was rich in
provisions, the soldiers recovered again, But then, after the burning of
Moscow when 80,000 men of the French army had to return over the infested
military roads, they were almost totally wiped out from dysentery, typhoid
and typhus. In smolensk, the number troops who had to remain behind from
typhoid and dysentery rose to 15,000. In Wilna of 30,000 captured French
troops, 25,000 had succumbed to desease. Among the civilian population in
Wilna at that time, 55,000 fatalities were reported in half a year.

Source:
Wilhelm Pfannstein, "Der moderne Krieg als Lehrmeister der Hygiene" Bremer
Beitrage zur Naturwissenschaft, vol. 8 (Oldenburg: Gerhard Stalling Verlag,
1944) Heft 2, pp. 7-13.

Concerning widespread Typhus in Eastern Europe in the beginning of this
century see:

Melville D Mackenzie, "Some Practical Considerations in the Control of Louse
borne Tyhhus Fever in the Light of Experience in Russia, Poland, Rumania
and China" Proceedings of the Royal Society of Medicine, vol. 35 (London:
1942)

>
>Judaism is a religion not a ethnic feature.

Judaism is an ethnic religion for people who ethnically are regarded
a part of the Jewish people.


>> But it was war ! What options did he have ? The Versailles treaty had
>> forced him to revive the country dramatically, and this could only be
>> done by making Jews a scapegoat
>
>HE ADMITS THAT THE JEWS HAVE BEEN USED AS SCAPEGOATS!!!! Attention. He
>really did it.
>

Yeah like the neo-nazis are the scape-goat of the present German regime.
When resentment against the German refugee policy rises, the few neo-nazis
are blamed.

--
Ole Kreiberg http://login.dknet.dk/~olk
http://www.faelleslisten.org

Klaus Beck

unread,
Jun 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/24/97
to

>
> >HE ADMITS THAT THE JEWS HAVE BEEN USED AS SCAPEGOATS!!!! Attention. He
> >really did it.
> >
>
> Yeah like the neo-nazis are the scape-goat of the present German regime.
> When resentment against the German refugee policy rises, the few neo-nazis
> are blamed.
>
That is not altogether true but a new nice legend You assholes try to
create. Most people know that there is always a level of rascism in
every population. But it is the fucking neo-nazis who go around burning
refugee-shelters. You do not need scapegoats when the criminals are
apprehended drunk and stinking of gasoline at the scene proudly
explaining what they have done only to say they didn´t when sobered up
and sitting before a judge.

Ole Kreiberg

unread,
Jun 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/25/97
to

In article <33AFEB...@t-online.de>, Klaus Beck wrote:

> Most people know that there is always a level of rascism in
>every population.

And this level is there with or without nazism. Racism is the symptom
and not the cause of the conflicts that spontanously rise in step with the
immigration from the third world. There is only one way to combat racism and
that is by creating ethnic homogeneity.

>But it is the fucking neo-nazis who go around burning
>refugee-shelters. You do not need scapegoats when the criminals are
>apprehended drunk and stinking of gasoline at the scene proudly
>explaining what they have done only to say they didn´t when sobered up
>and sitting before a judge.

It must be individual members of neo-nazi organisations that commit such
acts - like there are individual social democrats and Christian democrats
who drunkdrives and batters theirs wives.

Klaus Beck

unread,
Jun 26, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/26/97
to

>
> And this level is there with or without nazism. Racism is the symptom
> and not the cause of the conflicts that spontanously rise in step with the
> immigration from the third world. There is only one way to combat racism and
> that is by creating ethnic homogeneity.

Well, there was enough racism involved in the colonization of the Third
World to begin with so Your argument that immigration from the Third
World is the cause for racism doesn´t really hold. I think You should
check Your history-books sometimes. Especially since You had answered to
my last post by clearly not understanding sarcasm You should also try a
course in rhethorics;)

>
> >But it is the fucking neo-nazis who go around burning
> >refugee-shelters. You do not need scapegoats when the criminals are
> >apprehended drunk and stinking of gasoline at the scene proudly
> >explaining what they have done only to say they didn´t when sobered up
> >and sitting before a judge.
>
> It must be individual members of neo-nazi organisations that commit such
> acts - like there are individual social democrats and Christian democrats
> who drunkdrives and batters theirs wives.
>

Oh yes, individual members of the neo-nazis do the burning. THe common
field, forest and grass-variety-neo-nazi stands on the byline and claps
his hands to the burning of the refugee homes. How thick are You anyway
to try to tell us that racism isn´t one of the foundations of fascism?
Do You think we are totally bonkers to believe hogwash like that? Howe
many immigrants did the Third Rich have?
--
MZ

Ole Kreiberg

unread,
Jun 26, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/26/97
to

In article <33B218...@t-online.de>, Klaus Beck wrote:
>
>Well, there was enough racism involved in the colonization of the Third
>World to begin with so Your argument that immigration from the Third

Racism was not what caused colonialism. It arised from the closer contacts
between various races caused by colonialism.

>>
>Oh yes, individual members of the neo-nazis do the burning. THe common
>field, forest and grass-variety-neo-nazi stands on the byline and claps
>his hands to the burning of the refugee homes.

How dare you call concerned citizens, that do not want the refugee invasion,
neo-nazis. The German government let all these third world people come
against the wish of the German population, and the Germans showed their
discontent this way. Only the German government is to blame for that. The
policy of the German government has created this discontent that exploded in
violence. The cowardly and lousy German government tried to make the few
socalled neo-nazis scapegoats.

>How thick are You anyway
>to try to tell us that racism isn´t one of the foundations of fascism?

How much racism was there in fascist Italy? And how much racism was there
in Spain during the Franco-regime? Spain has the largest Gypsie community
in Europe. How were they treated in the Franco days in comparison to today?

>Do You think we are totally bonkers to believe hogwash like that? Howe
>many immigrants did the Third Rich have?

The Third Reich had none, and therefore it is very wrong to compare those
who are against the immigration from the third world with Nazi-Germans of
the past.

Juergen Hubert

unread,
Jun 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/27/97
to

Ole Kreiberg wrote:
>
> In article <33B218...@t-online.de>, Klaus Beck wrote:
[snip]

> >Oh yes, individual members of the neo-nazis do the burning. THe common
> >field, forest and grass-variety-neo-nazi stands on the byline and claps
> >his hands to the burning of the refugee homes.
>
> How dare you call concerned citizens, that do not want the refugee invasion,
> neo-nazis.

Are you saying that those who applaud the burning of refugee homes are
just "concerned citizens"?

--
Juergen Hubert
HUB...@gawein.physik.uni-erlangen.de

"Sometimes I do stupid stuff, and I don't even know why...
...as if my body were controlled by some demented, sadistic
puppet-master..."
-- Bernard Bernoulli
"Well, we all feel that way sometimes."
-- Weird Ed Edison
in: "Day of the Tentacle"

Klaus Günther Beck

unread,
Jun 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/27/97
to

Juergen Hubert wrote:
>
> Ole Kreiberg wrote:
> >
> > In article <33B218...@t-online.de>, Klaus Beck wrote:
> [snip]
> > >Oh yes, individual members of the neo-nazis do the burning. THe common
> > >field, forest and grass-variety-neo-nazi stands on the byline and claps
> > >his hands to the burning of the refugee homes.
> >
> > How dare you call concerned citizens, that do not want the refugee invasion,
> > neo-nazis.
>
> Are you saying that those who applaud the burning of refugee homes are
> just "concerned citizens"?
>
> --
Sorry, Juergen, that came along wrong. Ich meinte die Feld-Wald und
Wiesen Nazis, die am Rand stehen und das Feuer beklatschen. Aber ich
glaube auch, daß es einige Leute gibt, die Angst vor dem haben, was sie
eine "Flüchtlingswelle" nennen, ohne gleich Nazis zu sein. Mein Vater
gehört leider zu dieser Gruppe. Ich wollte nicht die Nazis als besorgte
Bürger bezeichnen.

Klaus Günther Beck

unread,
Jun 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/27/97
to

Ole Kreiberg wrote:
>
> In article <33B218...@t-online.de>, Klaus Beck wrote:
> >
> >Well, there was enough racism involved in the colonization of the Third
> >World to begin with so Your argument that immigration from the Third
>
> Racism was not what caused colonialism. It arised from the closer contacts
> between various races caused by colonialism.
>
> >>
> >Oh yes, individual members of the neo-nazis do the burning. THe common
> >field, forest and grass-variety-neo-nazi stands on the byline and claps
> >his hands to the burning of the refugee homes.
>
> How dare you call concerned citizens, that do not want the refugee invasion,
> neo-nazis.

"Concerned citizens" are not the ones that applaud the burning of
refugee-homes. Concerned citizens build chains from their bodies to
protest against these actions.

The German government let all these third world people come
> against the wish of the German population, and the Germans showed their
> discontent this way.

This is simply not true. The gros of the German population gives shit
either way for the most time. But most of them quite publicly showed how
disgusted they were with the actions of the Neo-Nazis.

Only the German government is to blame for that. The
> policy of the German government has created this discontent that exploded in
> violence.

No, the fascists, that became stronger since the fall of the wall were
responsible for this new level of violence.

The cowardly and lousy German government tried to make the few
> socalled neo-nazis scapegoats.

They do not need to. The neo-nazis are the guilty party.

>
> >How thick are You anyway
> >to try to tell us that racism isn´t one of the foundations of fascism?
>
> How much racism was there in fascist Italy?

Oh, quite enough. Ask some Italians.

And how much racism was there
> in Spain during the Franco-regime? Spain has the largest Gypsie community
> in Europe. How were they treated in the Franco days in comparison to today?

BAd enough.


>
> >Do You think we are totally bonkers to believe hogwash like that? Howe
> >many immigrants did the Third Rich have?
>
> The Third Reich had none, and therefore it is very wrong to compare those
> who are against the immigration from the third world with Nazi-Germans of
> the past.

No, because this simply shows that the Nazi-regime strictly controlled
the immigration of people into Germany and killed all the foreigners
inside the land that didn´t go quick enough.

Ole Kreiberg

unread,
Jul 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/3/97
to

In article <5p19a2$fnr$3...@news01.btx.dtag.de>, Klaus Günther Beck wrote:
>
>"Concerned citizens" are not the ones that applaud the burning of
>refugee-homes. Concerned citizens build chains from their bodies to
>protest against these actions.

No that is what political correct and brain-washed citizens do.

>This is simply not true. The gros of the German population gives shit
>either way for the most time. But most of them quite publicly showed how
>disgusted they were with the actions of the Neo-Nazis.

I think most of them just showed how well brainwashed and submissive they
were.

>
> The cowardly and lousy German government tried to make the few
>> socalled neo-nazis scapegoats.
>
>They do not need to. The neo-nazis are the guilty party.

Wishfull thinking.

>> How much racism was there in fascist Italy?
>
>Oh, quite enough. Ask some Italians.

I have never heard of much.

>
> And how much racism was there
>> in Spain during the Franco-regime? Spain has the largest Gypsie community
>> in Europe. How were they treated in the Franco days in comparison to today?
>
>BAd enough.

Really. If there had been any particular bad treatment of the Gypsies in
Spain during the regime of Franco it certainly would have been cried out in
the mass media - like the treatment of Non-Whites in South Africa during the
apartheid.

>
>No, because this simply shows that the Nazi-regime strictly controlled
>the immigration of people into Germany and killed all the foreigners
>inside the land that didn´t go quick enough.
>

"Killed all the foreigners that didn't go quick enough" :-D . Do you believe
all those horror-tales of the victors of WW2. In the very north of Germany
there live a Danish national minority. I have never heard of any actions
against them.

Klaus Beck

unread,
Jul 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/4/97
to

> >
>
> "Killed all the foreigners that didn't go quick enough" :-D . Do you believe
> all those horror-tales of the victors of WW2. In the very north of Germany
> there live a Danish national minority. I have never heard of any actions
> against them.
>
The Danish, like all other Scandinavians - were seen as the ultimate
Aryans and Hitler wanted to introduce them into the German gene-pool
mostly through sexual contact with members of the SS. This was the
reason why Scandinavians got a better deal in the Third Reich than other
foreigners. Read something about Operation Lebensborn, there You will
find it explained.

Klaus Günther Beck

unread,
Jul 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/4/97
to

>
> >
> >No, because this simply shows that the Nazi-regime strictly controlled
> >the immigration of people into Germany and killed all the foreigners
> >inside the land that didn´t go quick enough.

> >
>
> "Killed all the foreigners that didn't go quick enough" :-D . Do you believe
> all those horror-tales of the victors of WW2. In the very north of Germany
> there live a Danish national minority. I have never heard of any actions
> against them.
>
No, they were integrated into the Reich. Hitler wanted to keep the
Scandinacian life-stock intact because he needed them for his Operation
Lebensborn. He actually cared quite well for them because he saw in them
the non-plus-ultra Aryans whose blood should ennoble the ranks of the
SS.

Eugene Holman

unread,
Jul 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/6/97
to

In article <33BCEA...@t-online.de>, Klaus Beck
<klausNOguen...@t-online.de> wrote:

> > >
> >
> > "Killed all the foreigners that didn't go quick enough" :-D . Do you
believe
> > all those horror-tales of the victors of WW2. In the very north of Germany
> > there live a Danish national minority. I have never heard of any actions
> > against them.
> >

> The Danish, like all other Scandinavians - were seen as the ultimate
> Aryans and Hitler wanted to introduce them into the German gene-pool
> mostly through sexual contact with members of the SS. This was the
> reason why Scandinavians got a better deal in the Third Reich than other
> foreigners. Read something about Operation Lebensborn, there You will
> find it explained.

The mostly blond and blue eyed Frisians living on the Frisian Islands had a
pretty easy time, too. The justification for the special treatment of these
Aryanizable peoples is made clear in the following quotation about Nazi
attitudes towards Norwegians:

"This is a Germanic people, so it is our duty to educate its children and
young people to make the Norwegians a Nordic people again, as we understand
the term. It is definitely desirable that German soldiers should have as
many children as possible by Norwegian women, legitimately or
illegitimately."

SS Lt-Gen Rediess
German High Commander for Norway, 1943
[Source of quote: Carine CLAY & Michael Leapman, *Master Race. The
Lebensborn Experiment in Nazi Germany*, Coronet Books, London, 1995, pg.
131]

Ole might consider investigating the background of the word "tyskertřs" in
his own language; this word having been used as a derogatory term for the
Danish women who bore the thousands of Danish-German children fathered by
soldiers of the Nazi occupation army in accordance with the general desire
expressed in the above quote from SS Lt-Gen Rediess for their neighbor to
the north. Ole might also visit the Museum of the Danish Resistance and
find out something about the Danish women who were co-opted into serving as
a genetic goldmine for Nazi purposes. The Lebensborn home established for
them and their offspring in Copenhagen did not start operations until the
end of the war, and it was eventually converted to a clinic for women who
had escaped from East Germany.

Med venlige hilsner,
Eugene Holman

Klaus Günther Beck

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Jul 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/6/97
to
> Ole might consider investigating the background of the word "tyskertųs" in

> his own language; this word having been used as a derogatory term for the
> Danish women who bore the thousands of Danish-German children fathered by
> soldiers of the Nazi occupation army in accordance with the general desire
> expressed in the above quote from SS Lt-Gen Rediess for their neighbor to
> the north. Ole might also visit the Museum of the Danish Resistance and
> find out something about the Danish women who were co-opted into serving as
> a genetic goldmine for Nazi purposes. The Lebensborn home established for
> them and their offspring in Copenhagen did not start operations until the
> end of the war, and it was eventually converted to a clinic for women who
> had escaped from East Germany.
>
> Med venlige hilsner,
> Eugene Holman

Thanks, Eugene,

vielen Dank, und alles Gute,

Klaus Günther Beck.

Ole Kreiberg

unread,
Jul 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/7/97
to

>> > >
>> > The Danish, like all other Scandinavians - were seen as the ultimate
>> > Aryans and Hitler wanted to introduce them into the German gene-pool
>> > mostly through sexual contact with members of the SS.

Bullshit. The Germans regarded themselves the ultimate Aryans. Scandinavians,
Dutchmen and Flemings were regarded as related Blood (verwandete Blut) and
not the same. Nazism was first and foremost German chauvinism, and Danes were
regarded secondclass Aryans. Hitler said several times that Nazism knows
only Germany and is not meant for export.

As far as I know there were no German SS in Denmark apart from the staff of
the GESTAPO. I have heard much of the misdeeds of the Germans during WW2
but I have never heard of something like the above-mentioned in Denmark. They
never tried to nazify or germanize Denmark. Denmark was only occupied out of
military-strategical reasons. Even Hitler admitted that the Danes were
terrible "German-bashers" and no closer friendship or ties were possible
between Denmark and Germany. These feelings go way back in history.

>> >This was the
>> > reason why Scandinavians got a better deal in the Third Reich than other
>> > foreigners. Read something about Operation Lebensborn, there You will
>> > find it explained.
>>

This bullshit is cowardly German attempts to export some of their "guilt"
to Denmark. No decent Dane would ever even think of identifying themselves
as other than being innocent victims of the "evil", alien and f.....g Germans
during WW2.

>> The mostly blond and blue eyed Frisians living on the Frisian Islands had a
>> pretty easy time, too. The justification for the special treatment of these
>> Aryanizable peoples is made clear in the following quotation about Nazi
>> attitudes towards Norwegians:
>>
>> "This is a Germanic people, so it is our duty to educate its children and
>> young people to make the Norwegians a Nordic people again, as we understand
>> the term. It is definitely desirable that German soldiers should have as
>> many children as possible by Norwegian women, legitimately or
>> illegitimately."
>>

The Norwegian government fled after the invasion in 1940 and left Norway at
pleasure of the Germans. In Denmark the legal and democratic elected
government stayed and performed the negotiation policy. The condition of the
following cooperation was of course that no nazi-features were introduced.
Denmark was suposed to keep it's sovereignty otherwise no cooperation was
possible.

>>
>> Ole might consider investigating the background of the word "tyskertřs" in


>> his own language; this word having been used as a derogatory term for the
>> Danish women who bore the thousands of Danish-German children fathered by
>> soldiers of the Nazi occupation army in accordance with the general desire
>> expressed in the above quote from SS Lt-Gen Rediess for their neighbor to
>> the north.

In every war there will always some "bitches" fraternizing with the enemy.
Hitler was not interested in Denmark, and the Danish policy during the war
as well as before and even before Hitler came to power was exactly to make
Germany as little interested in Denmark as possible. The war in 1864 had
taught Denmark that it was not possible to overcome Germany on the
battlefield.


>>Ole might also visit the Museum of the Danish Resistance and
>> find out something about the Danish women who were co-opted into serving as
>> a genetic goldmine for Nazi purposes.

I have visited this museum, and it does not expose something like that.

>>The Lebensborn home established for
>> them and their offspring in Copenhagen did not start operations until the
>> end of the war, and it was eventually converted to a clinic for women who
>> had escaped from East Germany.

This is an outright lie. There never existed something like this in Denmark.
To the chauvinist Germans, the Danes were secondclass Aryans (Die dummen
Daenen und dieses laecherliche kleine Land u.s.w). All the state apparatus
was on Danish hands during the whole of the war, and it would
never allow something like this.

Eugene Holman has earlier stated that he is of Afro-American descent. I
think that much of his writing reflects his personal racial complexes and
obsessions. I say much of the race stuff of the Nazi-Germans was pure mumbo-
jumbo. Some of the best friends of the Germans during WW2 were the
the Rumanians, the Hungarians, the Slovaks and Bulgarians, while some of
those that received the harshest treatment were the Germanic Dutchmen and
Norwegians. The latter was real life.

Klaus Beck

unread,
Jul 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/8/97
to

Ole Kreiberg wrote:
>
> As far as I know there were no German SS in Denmark apart from the staff of
> the GESTAPO. I have heard much of the misdeeds of the Germans during WW2
> but I have never heard of something like the above-mentioned in Denmark.

Which just shows how much You do not know. And this is of course no
proof that it didn´t happen.

Even Hitler admitted that the Danes were
> terrible "German-bashers" and no closer friendship or ties were possible
> between Denmark and Germany. These feelings go way back in history.

References, please. For the "historic sentiment", as well as for what
Hitler thought about the Danish.
........................................................................


>
Read something about Operation Lebensborn, there You will
> >> > find it explained.
> >>
>
> This bullshit is cowardly German attempts to export some of their "guilt"
> to Denmark. No decent Dane would ever even think of identifying themselves
> as other than being innocent victims of the "evil", alien and f.....g Germans
> during WW2.

Ah, this is the reason why the book mentioned by Halmon was written by
British historians who worked with German documents and with
eye-witnesses. And why they describe organizations in Danemark that help
the children of Lebensborn to find their fathers.
Apart from this, there is a lot for not wanting to identify oneself as a
participant of Lebensborn. Everybody ( even many Germans ) tried to
claim innocence after WW II. So what does this prove? Nothing of course
apart from that people do not want to be associated with evil. But that
is perfectly normal and even accepted. But it doesn´t prove that it
didn´t happen anyway.

........................................................................

The justification for the special treatment of these
> >> Aryanizable peoples is made clear in the following quotation about Nazi
> >> attitudes towards Norwegians:
> >>
> >> "This is a Germanic people, so it is our duty to educate its children and
> >> young people to make the Norwegians a Nordic people again, as we understand
> >> the term. It is definitely desirable that German soldiers should have as
> >> many children as possible by Norwegian women, legitimately or
> >> illegitimately."
> >>
> The Norwegian government fled after the invasion in 1940 and left Norway at
> pleasure of the Germans.

Which doesn´t prove anything here.

In Denmark the legal and democratic elected
> government stayed and performed the negotiation policy.

Which also doesn´t prove anything. In France there was the Vichy-regime.
They were also quite cooperative.

The condition of the
> following cooperation was of course that no nazi-features were introduced.

Right. And YOu want us to believe that Hitler would have followed this.
The man who promised, never to invade Belgium and then did so anyway. If
they wanted to control a nation they had to introduce some features of
National Socialism here. And Operation Lebensborn wasn´t for the most
women a possibility to get money, food and medical care. A possibility
which they used.

> Denmark was suposed to keep it's sovereignty otherwise no cooperation was
> possible.
>
> >>
> >> Ole might consider investigating the background of the word "tyskertřs" in
> >> his own language; this word having been used as a derogatory term for the
> >> Danish women who bore the thousands of Danish-German children fathered by
> >> soldiers of the Nazi occupation army in accordance with the general desire
> >> expressed in the above quote from SS Lt-Gen Rediess for their neighbor to
> >> the north.
>
> In every war there will always some "bitches" fraternizing with the enemy.

Now, now, now. Have You ever askd Your mother or Your father who their
real parents were? Just as a matter of interest.


The war in 1864 had
> taught Denmark that it was not possible to overcome Germany on the
> battlefield.

I am a bit rusty on this one. Wasn´t this primarly fought in
Schleswig-Holstein? Would make a difference to fighting on ones
home-turf, wouldn´t it?

>
> >>Ole might also visit the Museum of the Danish Resistance and
> >> find out something about the Danish women who were co-opted into serving as
> >> a genetic goldmine for Nazi purposes.
>
> I have visited this museum, and it does not expose something like that.

Well, the book Holman cited said it did. Should we believe them and
Holman or You who does nothing to prove what he says than jump up and
down and screaming: "Nay, nay, nay!"? What do You think.

>
> >>The Lebensborn home established for
> >> them and their offspring in Copenhagen did not start operations until the
> >> end of the war, and it was eventually converted to a clinic for women who
> >> had escaped from East Germany.
>
> This is an outright lie. There never existed something like this in Denmark.

It didn´t? How so? Prove it. It isn´t right simply because You say so.
You were given sources that say it was so. You simply claim the
opposite, without any proof. Historical sources say it did. Go on. Prove
them wrong.

> To the chauvinist Germans, the Danes were secondclass Aryans (Die dummen
> Daenen und dieses laecherliche kleine Land u.s.w). All the state apparatus
> was on Danish hands during the whole of the war, and it would
> never allow something like this.

This is not correct ( see I also can do it:))

>
> Eugene Holman has earlier stated that he is of Afro-American descent.

Which has nothing to do with anything, of course.

I
> think that much of his writing reflects his personal racial complexes and
> obsessions.

Which You would have to prove.

I say much of the race stuff of the Nazi-Germans was pure mumbo-
> jumbo. Some of the best friends of the Germans during WW2 were the
> the Rumanians, the Hungarians, the Slovaks and Bulgarians, while some of
> those that received the harshest treatment were the Germanic Dutchmen and
> Norwegians.


This goes for isolated cases. And so this argument proves nothing in
Your favour.

Eugene Holman

unread,
Jul 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/9/97
to

In article <GRGmpOev...@login.dknet.dk>, o...@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) wrote:

> >> > >
> >> > The Danish, like all other Scandinavians - were seen as the ultimate
> >> > Aryans and Hitler wanted to introduce them into the German gene-pool
> >> > mostly through sexual contact with members of the SS.
>
> Bullshit. The Germans regarded themselves the ultimate Aryans. Scandinavians,
> Dutchmen and Flemings were regarded as related Blood (verwandete Blut) and
> not the same. Nazism was first and foremost German chauvinism, and Danes were
> regarded secondclass Aryans. Hitler said several times that Nazism knows
> only Germany and is not meant for export.

You are spouting Hitler's version. When it comes to practical
implementation of Nazi racial theory, the Holocaust and Operation
Lebensborn stand as complementary components of a clear and consistently
implemented Nazi racial policy of which Heinrich Himmler rather than Adolf
Hitler was the mastermind.

Himmler is on record as having expressed the desire to see not only the
Dutchmen and Flemings, but also the Danes, Norwegians, Finland-Swedes,
Icelanders, Alsatians, English, and even North Americans of Aryan descent
who fit his racial ideal united in one racially uniform Germanic Reich.
There are numerous records of Himmler having arranged, approved, and
commented on the mass murder of European Jews and other 'racial inferiors'.
Similarly, here are numerous records of Himmler having overseen the
workings of the Lebensborn program, which involved having racially 'pure'
SS men and German soldiers sire as many children as possible in
Nazi-occupied Norway, Denmark, and Holland, and having 'Aryanoid' children
in Nazi-occupied Poland and Czecholovakia kidnapped from their homes and
sent to Germany for Germanization. I refer you to the standard work on this
aspect of Nazi policy: Georg LILIENTHAL, *Der "Lebensborn e.V.": ein
Instrument nationalsozialistischer Rassenpolitik*, Mainz, Akademie der
Wissenschaften und der Literatur. Forschungen zur neueren Medizin- und
Biologiegeschichte. 1985. ISBN 3-437-10939-1.

>
> As far as I know there were no German SS in Denmark apart from the staff of
> the GESTAPO. I have heard much of the misdeeds of the Germans during WW2

> but I have never heard of something like the above-mentioned in Denmark. They
> never tried to nazify or germanize Denmark.

Ole Kreiberg is sadly misinformed about certain aspects of the occupation
of his country. He consistently shuts his eyes to the cruel and violent
second phase which began in the late summer of 1943.

Here is a rather long quote which tells a different story:

Først med oprettelsen af stillingen som Befehlshaber der
Sicherheitspolizei und des Sicherheitsdienst in Dänemark i midten af
september 1943 træder det tyske politi officielt frem som en faktor i
besættelsepolitiken. Hermed havde den mest forhadte og frygtede gren af det
nazistiske terrorapparat etableret sig på dansk jord i et forsøg på at
nedkæmpe den hastigt voksende modstandsbevægelse. Den første
sikkerhedspolitichef blev SS-Standartenführer, dr. Mildner. Han blev
imidlertid anset for svag, modsatte sig således jødeaktionen og nølede med
at iværksætte modterroren. 14. januar 1944 blev han avløst af
SS-Standartenführer Otto Bovensiepen, der sad her i landet til
kapitulationen. Han modtog sine ordrer direkte fra Kaltenbrunner i
Reichsicherhauptsamt (RSHA) i Berlin udenom dr. Best, der efter
undtagelsestilstanden i spetember 1943 ikke længere havde den øverste
kommandomyndighed over politiet og nominelt var uden indflydelse på
Gestapos dispositioner.
Den øverste ledelse af alt tysk politi i Danmark havde fra November 1943
SS-generalen Günter Pancke, der som Höherer SS und Polizeiführer Dänemark
direkte var underlagt Himmler. Kommandoforholdet mellem Pancke og
Bovensiepen var dog ikke klart defineret, og reelt kørte Bovensiep sit eget
løb, mens Pancke kun havde ringe indflydelse på Gestapo og måtte støtte sig
på det tyske ordenspoliti i Danmark, Orpo.

Source: *Besættelsens Hvem Hvad Hvor*, 3rd revised edition, 2nd printing,
Politikens Forlag, 1985, ISBN 87-567-4035-2, pgs. 240-241.


> Denmark was only occupied out of

> military-strategical reasons. Even Hitler admitted that the Danes were


> terrible "German-bashers" and no closer friendship or ties were possible
> between Denmark and Germany. These feelings go way back in history.

This is one of the most naive statements I have ever read. Germany would
have used Denmark for its own purposes if it had won the war, some thing
which Himmler stated on more than one occasion. The fact that Nazi racial
theory placed Scandinavians higher in the hierachy than it did Slavs,
Gypsies, and Jews does not mean that German ideology with respect to racial
and other everyday manners was not to hold sway. In Norway where systematic
efforts to produce as many 'Aryan' children as possible went further than
anywhere else in Nazi-occupied Europe, official figures, thought to be
understated, state that between 6,000 and 12,000 children were produced.
Norway was also the location of the largest network of Lebensborn homes
outside of Germany. Why? Might not this statement have a bearing on the
matter:

"This is a Germanic people, so it is our duty to educate its children and
young people to make the Norwegians a Nordic people again, as we understand
the term. It is definitely desirable that German soldiers should have as
many children as possible by Norwegian women, legitimately or
illegitimately."

SS Lt-Gen Rediess


German High Commander for Norway, 1943
[Source of quote: Carine CLAY & Michael Leapman, *Master Race. The
Lebensborn Experiment in Nazi Germany*, Coronet Books, London, 1995, pg.
131]

Read the first chapter of the book by Lilienthal mentioned above for
numerous references to speeches and pronouncements by Himmler on a racially
and culturally Aryanized and Germanized post-war Europe.

>
> >> >This was the
> >> > reason why Scandinavians got a better deal in the Third Reich than other

> >> > foreigners. Read something about Operation Lebensborn, there You will


> >> > find it explained.
> >>
>
> This bullshit is cowardly German attempts to export some of their "guilt"
> to Denmark. No decent Dane would ever even think of identifying themselves
> as other than being innocent victims of the "evil", alien and f.....g Germans
> during WW2.

I understand your ire, Ole, but the Germans thought they would win the war.
And part of their privileges as victors would have been to reconstruct the
part of the world they dominated according to their own cognitive models,
this includes demographics and boundaries. The tens of thousands of
'racially irreproachable' children produced in conjunction with Operation
Lebensborn were to be a part of this long-term plan, a nucleus of
German-Norwegian, German-Danish etc. children who would form the post-war
Nordic-Germanic elite. Have you asked somebody who lived through the
occupation about the special connotations of the word *tyskertøs*?


>
> Hitler was not interested in Denmark, and the Danish policy during the war
> as well as before and even before Hitler came to power was exactly to make

> Germany as little interested in Denmark as possible. The war in 1864 had


> taught Denmark that it was not possible to overcome Germany on the
> battlefield.

Nazi racial policy saw Denmark as a goldmine of genetically valuable
material for building a Nordic-Germanic race, as they understood the term.
Given that the Germans were also expanding into Poland, the Baltics, and
the Leningrad area it is extremely naive to think that strategically placed
Denmark would be allowed to carry on its normal existence as gatekeeper to
the Mare Germanicum, which is what the Baltic Sea would have become.

>
>
> >>Ole might also visit the Museum of the Danish Resistance and
> >> find out something about the Danish women who were co-opted into serving as
> >> a genetic goldmine for Nazi purposes.
>
> I have visited this museum, and it does not expose something like that.

The museum has an excellent library and helpful staff. If you would spend
some time there doing serious research, you would find out some things
about the resistance that you do not seem to want to know. I've only visted
there once, but the librarians have been very helpful answering my
questions by fax.

>
> >>The Lebensborn home established for
> >> them and their offspring in Copenhagen did not start operations until the
> >> end of the war, and it was eventually converted to a clinic for women who
> >> had escaped from East Germany.
>
> This is an outright lie. There never existed something like this in Denmark.

Sorry, Ole. Please allow me another quote.

...Noch am 9. September 1942 hatte Himmler die auf sein Geheiß ihm
vorgelegte Frage der Lebensborn-Führung, ob sich der Verein in Dänemark
einschalten solle, ablehnend beantwortet. Sechs Monate darauf stimmte er
einer "langsamen Einschaltung" zu. Sicherlich waren die Vorbereitungen für
doe Verordnung vom 9. August 1943 ein Grund für seinen Sinneswandel. Am 13.
Januar 1944, fünf Wochen nach der Benennung des HSSPF, erteilte Himmler
endgültig den Auftrag, im dänischen Gebiet eine Lebensborn-Dienstelle
aufzubauen [Notiz im Brieftagebuch des Pers.Stab RFSS "1944 Sachlich" unter
der Nr. 26/4/44. BA: NS 19/Zg. DC 23.]. Ebner fand, wie er in seinem
Bericht über eine Besichtigungsreise im Februar 1944 feststellt, bei allen
Dienststellen größtes Interesse an dem Plan, ein Lebensborn-Heim zu
eröffnen [Bericht vom 17.2.1944. ITS:L-Ordner 13, Bll. 115-117]. Das
Bedürfnis für Entbindungsanstalten hatte man anscheinend sehr groß
eingeschätzt, denn er erwähnt ein gleiches Vorhaben der NSV. Die
Aufbauarbeit ging durch die Kriegsverhältnisse nur sehr langsam voran. Erst
Anfang Dezember wurde SS-Sturmbannführer Ziesmer, bis dahin Leiter der
Hauptabteilung Arbeit in der Zentrale, von München nach Kopenhagen
geschickt. Hier richtete er ein Entbindungsheim ein, das im Mai 1945
aufnahmebereit war. In den Wochen des Zusammenbruchs wurde es in Verbindung
mit dem Roten Kreuz als Frauenklinik für deutsche Ostflüchtlinge zur
Verfügung gestellt [Eidesstattl. Erkl. von Willy Ziesmer vom 5.1.1948.
Sollmann Dok. Nr. 54, S. 15. Vgl. den Bericht des HSSPF in Dänemark,
Fürsorgekommando, vom 9.4.1945, in dem es heißt, daß die Zusammenarbeit mit
dem "Lebensborn" in der Flüchtlingsbetreuung eingeleitet sei. BA: NS 2/83,
Bl. 6.]

Source: Georg LILIENTHAL, *Der "Lebensborn e.V.": ein Instrument
nationalsozialistischer Rassenpolitik*, Mainz, Akademie der Wissenschaften
und der Literatur. Forschungen zur neueren Medizin- und Biologiegeschichte.
1985. ISBN 3-437-10939-1. pgs. 192 -194.


> To the chauvinist Germans, the Danes were secondclass Aryans (Die dummen
> Daenen und dieses laecherliche kleine Land u.s.w). All the state apparatus
> was on Danish hands during the whole of the war, and it would
> never allow something like this.

Agreed. Danish culture and language were regarded as 'lächerlich' and
expendable. Danish genes were regarded as a valuable raw material for the
breeding of Homo Germanicus.

>
> Eugene Holman has earlier stated that he is of Afro-American descent.

Ole has alwas been sceptical about my racial background, and once insisted
that I am a Jew. I invite him, and anyone else with doubts about who and
what I am, to inspect my photograph at http://www.eng.helsinki.fi.

> I
> think that much of his writing reflects his personal racial complexes and
> obsessions.

Having always been a member of a visible minority, I quite reasonably get
very upset when I hear about programs such as the Holocaust, Lebensborn, or
the revolution depicted in *the Turner Diaries*, which involve singling out
people for extermination solely on the basis of their racial background. If
these are 'racial complexes and obsessions', so be they.

My primary interest is to gain a better understanding of history, something
which requires much reading, thinking, and critical evaluation, something
which you, Ole, show that you lack when you make statements like:

> I say much of the race stuff of the Nazi-Germans was pure mumbo-
> jumbo.

Nazi German race policy was consistently carried out for more than five
years and it is responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent
civilians as well as for having ruined the lives of many more millions of
people. Since you, Ole, are a Dane and live in Denmark, I'm not going to
pretend to know more about the Nazi occupation of Denmark than you do. I
will, however, take this opportunity to state that reading your posts has
demonstrated to me and many others that you purposely close your eyes to
the fact that the final phase of the Nazi occupation of your homeland was
brutal and violent, and that much evidence shows that the Germans had quite
definite and sinister plans for order that they hoped to establish in
Denmark after winning the war.

> Some of the best friends of the Germans during WW2 were the
> the Rumanians, the Hungarians, the Slovaks and Bulgarians, while some of
> those that received the harshest treatment were the Germanic Dutchmen and

> Norwegians. The latter was real life.

Right up until the morning of June 22, some of the best friends were the
Soviets. Most Romanian, Hungarian, and Slovak (but not Bulgarian) Jews were
rounded up, deported, and killed at Nazi extermination camps, but no matter
how sympathetic their governments were to German interests, the Nazi
Lebensborn program did not extend to these countries. Dutch and Norwegian
Jews were also rounded up, deported, and killed at Nazi extermination
camps, and the Nazi Lebensborn program was functioning in these countries.
A comparison of Nazi policy towards Germanic and non-Germanic countries
shows a consistent pattern of differentiation between 'friends' and 'blood
relatives'. The years during which Nazi racial policy was being implemented
show that this, not the superficial and distorted picture you try to
present in your quote, was 'real life'. Many people still very much alive
in Europe today, as well as fields and forests all over eastern Europe
where millions of innocent victims of Nazi racially inspired terror lie
buried, are witnesses to it.

Ole Kreiberg

unread,
Jul 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/9/97
to

In article <1997070913...@oravannahka.Helsinki.FI>, Eugene Holman wrote:
>
>You are spouting Hitler's version. When it comes to practical
>implementation of Nazi racial theory, the Holocaust and Operation
>Lebensborn stand as complementary components of a clear and consistently
>implemented Nazi racial policy of which Heinrich Himmler rather than Adol=
>f
>Hitler was the mastermind.=20

Hitler often complained towards the end of the war that Himmler was a bit of
a visionary. Already back in the twenties he cleansed the party of many
racial visionaries. Rudolph Sebottendorf and Marby were good examples.
Sebottendorf had to go in exile in Turkey and Marby spent many years in
Dachau after Hitler had come to power. Lanz von Liebenfeld was banned from
publishing. Hitler detested racial (voelkisch) visionaries and shortly
before his death he falled out with Himmler and condemned him as racial
dreamer.

Racial fantasies of this sort were very common in Germany and Austria even
before Hitler was born. "Ariosophie" and "Voelkisch" were the terms for this
tradition.

>
>Himmler is on record as having expressed the desire to see not only the
>Dutchmen and Flemings, but also the Danes, Norwegians, Finland-Swedes,
>Icelanders, Alsatians, English, and even North Americans of Aryan descent
>who fit his racial ideal united in one racially uniform Germanic Reich.

Hm Goering once said about Heinrich Himmler: "Himmler has a brain and that
is Heydrich". I say Himmler's fantasies were far-fetched and total
unrealistic. It is easy understand Hitler's anger at him because of that.

>Similarly, here are numerous records of Himmler having overseen the
>workings of the Lebensborn program, which involved having racially 'pure'
>SS men and German soldiers sire as many children as possible in

>Nazi-occupied Norway, Denmark, and Holland, and having 'Aryanoid' childre=

In real life there were no attempts of this kind. Which Danish girls
would like to have something to do with the despiced German soldiers?
Hookers? Were there any examples of rape in order to implement this plan?
Are there any examples of girls being kidnapped and abducted to these
Lebensborn places? How would they in real life motivate Danish girls to
participate in this "weird Kraut stuff".

The average Dane may be a little more Nordic than the average German. Who
would benefit from the purer Danish gene-pool being polluted by the lesser
German Central-European one. If the Danish gene-pool really was so valuable
to them, then why polluting with scruffy German blood. This makes no sense
to me.

>n
>in Nazi-occupied Poland and Czecholovakia kidnapped from their homes and

>sent to Germany for Germanization. I refer you to the standard work on th=


>is
>aspect of Nazi policy: Georg LILIENTHAL, *Der "Lebensborn e.V.": ein
>Instrument nationalsozialistischer Rassenpolitik*, Mainz, Akademie der
>Wissenschaften und der Literatur. Forschungen zur neueren Medizin- und
>Biologiegeschichte. 1985. ISBN 3-437-10939-1.

The name Lillienthal sounds Jewish to me. Jews are disqualified from making
a fair and objective judgement of this period because they are a part of the
case.

>
>>=20
>> As far as I know there were no German SS in Denmark apart from the sta=
>ff of
>> the GESTAPO. I have heard much of the misdeeds of the Germans during WW=
>2
>> but I have never heard of something like the above-mentioned in Denmark=
>. They
>> never tried to nazify or germanize Denmark.=20


>
>Ole Kreiberg is sadly misinformed about certain aspects of the occupation
>of his country. He consistently shuts his eyes to the cruel and violent
>second phase which began in the late summer of 1943.
>

I know about that but I do not distort or exagerate it.

>Here is a rather long quote which tells a different story:
>

> F=F8rst med oprettelsen af stillingen som Befehlshaber der
>Sicherheitspolizei und des Sicherheitsdienst in D=E4nemark i midten af
>september 1943 tr=E6der det tyske politi officielt frem som en faktor i
>bes=E6ttelsepolitiken. Hermed havde den mest forhadte og frygtede gren af=
> det
>nazistiske terrorapparat etableret sig p=E5 dansk jord i et fors=F8g p=E5=
> at
>nedk=E6mpe den hastigt voksende modstandsbev=E6gelse. Den f=F8rste
>sikkerhedspolitichef blev SS-Standartenf=FChrer, dr. Mildner. Han blev
>imidlertid anset for svag, modsatte sig s=E5ledes j=F8deaktionen og n=F8l=
>ede med
>at iv=E6rks=E6tte modterroren. 14. januar 1944 blev han avl=F8st af
>SS-Standartenf=FChrer Otto Bovensiepen, der sad her i landet til


>kapitulationen. Han modtog sine ordrer direkte fra Kaltenbrunner i
>Reichsicherhauptsamt (RSHA) i Berlin udenom dr. Best, der efter

>undtagelsestilstanden i spetember 1943 ikke l=E6ngere havde den =F8verste
>kommandomyndighed over politiet og nominelt var uden indflydelse p=E5
>Gestapos dispositioner.
> Den =F8verste ledelse af alt tysk politi i Danmark havde fra November 1=
>943
>SS-generalen G=FCnter Pancke, der som H=F6herer SS und Polizeif=FChrer D=E4=


>nemark
>direkte var underlagt Himmler. Kommandoforholdet mellem Pancke og

>Bovensiepen var dog ikke klart defineret, og reelt k=F8rte Bovensiep sit =
>eget
>l=F8b, mens Pancke kun havde ringe indflydelse p=E5 Gestapo og m=E5tte st=
>=F8tte sig
>p=E5 det tyske ordenspoliti i Danmark, Orpo.
>
>Source: *Bes=E6ttelsens Hvem Hvad Hvor*, 3rd revised edition, 2nd printin=


>g,
>Politikens Forlag, 1985, ISBN 87-567-4035-2, pgs. 240-241.
>

You should have translated this into English. It says among other thing that
the first chief of GESTAPO Dr. Mildner had opposed the action against the
Jews (Like most of the other German top-nazis in Denmark). All the above-
mentioned confirm what I have expressed before.

>
>> Denmark was only occupied out of
>> military-strategical reasons. Even Hitler admitted that the Danes were

>> terrible "German-bashers" and no closer friendship or ties were possibl=


>e
>> between Denmark and Germany. These feelings go way back in history.
>
>This is one of the most naive statements I have ever read. Germany would
>have used Denmark for its own purposes if it had won the war, some thing
>which Himmler stated on more than one occasion.

Bah, Himmler the visionary. Remember Hitler was the undisputed boss and
dictator, and if Himmler did not submit to Hitler and his policy he would
possibly have had to share the same fate as the Ernst Roehm, the leader of
the SA.

> In Norway where systematic
>efforts to produce as many 'Aryan' children as possible went further than
>anywhere else in Nazi-occupied Europe, official figures, thought to be
>understated, state that between 6,000 and 12,000 children were produced.
>Norway was also the location of the largest network of Lebensborn homes
>outside of Germany. Why? Might not this statement have a bearing on the
>matter:
>

If the there were supposed to be born more children in Norway, why would
the help of the Germans be necessary. I think that the Norwegians could
handle that problem alone.

Had the Germans won the war they would have withdrawn from Denmark and
Norway and concentrated themselves on their expansion to the East.

>"This is a Germanic people, so it is our duty to educate its children and

>young people to make the Norwegians a Nordic people again, as we understa=
>nd
>the term.

>It is definitely desirable that German soldiers should have as
>many children as possible by Norwegian women, legitimately or
>illegitimately."

This sounds as shear madness to me. The Norwegians are more Nordic than
the Germans. The Germans are a blend of Nordics, Alpines, Dinarics etc.
The Germans are certainly lesser pure Nordic than any of the Scandinavian
people. The Scandinavians are the true Nordics while the Germans are Central-
Europeans.

>>=20
>> This bullshit is cowardly German attempts to export some of their "gu=
>ilt"
>> to Denmark. No decent Dane would ever even think of identifying themsel=
>ves
>> as other than being innocent victims of the "evil", alien and f.....g G=
>ermans
>> during WW2.
>

>I understand your ire, Ole, but the Germans thought they would win the wa=
>r.
>And part of their privileges as victors would have been to reconstruct th=


>e
>part of the world they dominated according to their own cognitive models,
>this includes demographics and boundaries.

Denmark was not officially an enemy of Germany. According to the Germans
it was occupied in order to "protect it's neutrality". It would be hard for
the Germans to legitimize any such steps against Denmark that never posed a
security threat and not even a racial threat to Germany.

>The tens of thousands of
>'racially irreproachable' children produced in conjunction with Operation
>Lebensborn were to be a part of this long-term plan, a nucleus of
>German-Norwegian, German-Danish etc. children who would form the post-war
>Nordic-Germanic elite. Have you asked somebody who lived through the

>occupation about the special connotations of the word *tyskert=F8s*?

Sure but a Danish girl getting a child with a German soldier would do every-
thing to deny or hide the identity of the father out of shame. How would the
Germans be able to indentify these children? Those girls that fraternized
with the German soldiers came from lowest social steps of society and were
the most unintelligent and thereby the most genitically undesired for
benefitting the Germans. No normal girl would mingle with the Germans and
thereby being regarded with a status lower than hooker by her countrymen.

I have never heard of German soldiers chasing Danish girls. My mother
was a young girl during the war and allthough she disliked the Germans and
did so even before the war, she has never told anything about she or her
friends being bothered by German soldiers. The worst thing she experienced
was some German soldiers pointing at her with submachine guns and asked her
for ID after a bridge in the vicinity had been blown up by the resistance.

>
>Nazi racial policy saw Denmark as a goldmine of genetically valuable
>material for building a Nordic-Germanic race, as they understood the term.

I doubt that very much.

>Given that the Germans were also expanding into Poland, the Baltics, and

>the Leningrad area it is extremely naive to think that strategically plac=
>ed
>Denmark would be allowed to carry on its normal existence as gatekeeper t=


>o
>the Mare Germanicum, which is what the Baltic Sea would have become.

The Danish government was willing to grant them some military bases
the same way the USA got around the world after the WW2.

>
>The museum has an excellent library and helpful staff. If you would spend
>some time there doing serious research, you would find out some things

>about the resistance that you do not seem to want to know. I've only vist=


>ed
>there once, but the librarians have been very helpful answering my
>questions by fax.

I have heard so much about the German occupation from the old generation
and former members of the resistence, and I have read a lot of books about
this period, but I have certainly heard of nothing like Lebensborn politics
imposed on Denmark. You will not find a single professional Danish historian
that would agree with you.

>Januar 1944, f=FCnf Wochen nach der Benennung des HSSPF, erteilte Himmler
>endg=FCltig den Auftrag, im d=E4nischen Gebiet eine Lebensborn-Dienstelle
>aufzubauen [Notiz im Brieftagebuch des Pers.Stab RFSS "1944 Sachlich" unt=


>er
>der Nr. 26/4/44. BA: NS 19/Zg. DC 23.]. Ebner fand, wie er in seinem

>Bericht =FCber eine Besichtigungsreise im Februar 1944 feststellt, bei al=
>len
>Dienststellen gr=F6=DFtes Interesse an dem Plan, ein Lebensborn-Heim zu
>er=F6ffnen [Bericht vom 17.2.1944. ITS:L-Ordner 13, Bll. 115-117].

As far as I know the German occupation of Denmark was placed under the
German ministry of foreign affairs. The ministry of foreign affair took
only orders from Hitler and not Himmler.


>
>> To the chauvinist Germans, the Danes were secondclass Aryans (Die dumme=
>n
>> Daenen und dieses laecherliche kleine Land u.s.w). All the state appara=


>tus
>> was on Danish hands during the whole of the war, and it would
>> never allow something like this.
>

>Agreed. Danish culture and language were regarded as 'l=E4cherlich' and


>expendable. Danish genes were regarded as a valuable raw material for the
>breeding of Homo Germanicus.
>

The Germans in general were not that obsessed with race. They were
chauvinists and more obsessed with nationality. To the ordinary German
race had something to with nationality.

Eugene Holman

unread,
Jul 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/11/97
to

In article <3L0npOev...@login.dknet.dk>, o...@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) wrote:

> In article <1997070913...@oravannahka.Helsinki.FI>, Eugene Holman
wrote:
> >
> >You are spouting Hitler's version. When it comes to practical
> >implementation of Nazi racial theory, the Holocaust and Operation
> >Lebensborn stand as complementary components of a clear and consistently
> >implemented Nazi racial policy of which Heinrich Himmler rather than Adol=
> >f
> >Hitler was the mastermind.=20
>
> Hitler often complained towards the end of the war that Himmler was a bit of
> a visionary. Already back in the twenties he cleansed the party of many
> racial visionaries. Rudolph Sebottendorf and Marby were good examples.
> Sebottendorf had to go in exile in Turkey and Marby spent many years in
> Dachau after Hitler had come to power. Lanz von Liebenfeld was banned from
> publishing. Hitler detested racial (voelkisch) visionaries and shortly
> before his death he falled out with Himmler and condemned him as racial
> dreamer.
>
> Racial fantasies of this sort were very common in Germany and Austria even
> before Hitler was born. "Ariosophie" and "Voelkisch" were the terms for this
> tradition.
>

The Lebensborn project affected the lives of hundreds of thousands of
children in Germany, Holland, Norway, Denmark, Poland, and rump
Czechoslovakia. The police actions of the Einsatzkommandos and
extermination camps erected as part of the Final Solution affected the
lives of the more than million Jewish, Gypsy, and Slavic children that
perished in the Holocaust. These racially-defined courses of action were
far from 'racial fantasies'.

>
> In real life there were no attempts of this kind. Which Danish girls
> would like to have something to do with the despiced German soldiers?
> Hookers? Were there any examples of rape in order to implement this plan?
> Are there any examples of girls being kidnapped and abducted to these
> Lebensborn places? How would they in real life motivate Danish girls to
> participate in this "weird Kraut stuff".

I have contacted the Danish Red Cross and asked for more information about
the Copenhagen Lebensborn home. I shall post the answer here when I receive
it. Otherwise I can only request that you overcome your antipathy towards
'Jewish sounding names' and take a look at the Lilienthal book. It contains
a considerable amount of information taken from primary sources such as the
personal diaries of Himmler and his staff about German attitudes towards
Danes and Denmark, and the manner in which the Lebensborn program was
implemented in Nazi-occupied Denmark.

>
> The average Dane may be a little more Nordic than the average German. Who
> would benefit from the purer Danish gene-pool being polluted by the lesser
> German Central-European one. If the Danish gene-pool really was so valuable
> to them, then why polluting with scruffy German blood. This makes no sense
> to me.
>

From the German standpoint 'scruffy German blood' would be purified by the
'purer Danish gene-pool'. In conjunction with Lebensborn perhaps as many as
200,000 'Aryan-looking' Slavic children were abducted and Germanized. The
Nazis had a well-elaborated plan to 'Nordify' Germany, and Denmark had the
necessary genetic material.


> >n
> >in Nazi-occupied Poland and Czecholovakia kidnapped from their homes and
> >sent to Germany for Germanization. I refer you to the standard work on th=
> >is
> >aspect of Nazi policy: Georg LILIENTHAL, *Der "Lebensborn e.V.": ein
> >Instrument nationalsozialistischer Rassenpolitik*, Mainz, Akademie der
> >Wissenschaften und der Literatur. Forschungen zur neueren Medizin- und
> >Biologiegeschichte. 1985. ISBN 3-437-10939-1.
>
> The name Lillienthal sounds Jewish to me. Jews are disqualified from making
> a fair and objective judgement of this period because they are a part of the
> case.
>

This is not the way an intelligent or mature person argues. Lilienthal's
book is highly regarded and recognized as the primary research study about
Lebensborn. The book is based upon a scrupulous examination of primary
sources, and was published by the prestigious German Academy of Sciences
and Literature. Do you really think your '[it] sounds Jewish to me' is a
stronger argument against the credibility of a source than the opinions of
experts and the prestige of the publisher?


> >
> >>=20
> >> As far as I know there were no German SS in Denmark apart from the sta=
> >ff of
> >> the GESTAPO. I have heard much of the misdeeds of the Germans during WW=
> >2
> >> but I have never heard of something like the above-mentioned in Denmark=
> >. They
> >> never tried to nazify or germanize Denmark.=20
> >
> >Ole Kreiberg is sadly misinformed about certain aspects of the occupation
> >of his country. He consistently shuts his eyes to the cruel and violent
> >second phase which began in the late summer of 1943.
> >
>
> I know about that but I do not distort or exagerate it.
>
> >Here is a rather long quote which tells a different story:

> >Den første
> >sikkerhedspolitichef blev SS-Standartenführer, dr. Mildner. Han blev
> >imidlertid anset for svag, modsatte sig således jødeaktionen og nøl=
> >ede med
> >at iværksætte modterroren. 14. januar 1944 blev han avløst af
> >SS-Standartenführer Otto Bovensiepen, der sad her i landet til


> >kapitulationen. Han modtog sine ordrer direkte fra Kaltenbrunner i
> >Reichsicherhauptsamt (RSHA) i Berlin udenom dr. Best, der efter

> >undtagelsestilstanden i september 1943 ikke længere havde den øverste


> >kommandomyndighed over politiet og nominelt var uden indflydelse på
> >Gestapos dispositioner.

> > Den øverste ledelse af alt tysk politi i Danmark havde fra November 1=
> >943


> >SS-generalen Günter Pancke, der som Höherer SS und Polizeiführer Dä

> >nemark
> >direkte var underlagt Himmler. Kommandoforholdet mellem Pancke og

> >Bovensiepen var dog ikke klart defineret, og reelt kørte Bovensiep sit =


> >eget
> >løb, mens Pancke kun havde ringe indflydelse på Gestapo og måtte støtte sig

> >på det tyske ordenspoliti i Danmark, Orpo.
> >
> >Source: *Besættelsens Hvem Hvad Hvor*, 3rd revised edition, 2nd printin=
> >g,
> >Politikens Forlag, Copenhagen, 1985, ISBN 87-567-4035-2, pgs. 240-241.


> >
>
> You should have translated this into English.

Okay. The most important part states:

"The first head of the Security Police was Dr. Mildner. He was eventually
regarded as weak, and thus opposed operations against Danish Jews and
hesitated to implement counterterrorism against the resistance. On January
14, 1944 he was replaced by SS-Standartenführer Otto Bovensiepen, who
remained in the position until the capitulation. Bovensiepen took his
orders directly from [Ernst/EH] Kaltenbrunner [Chief of the Security Police
and Security Service/EH] in Berlin bypassing Dr. Best who, after the state
of emergency in September 1943, no longer the supreme command authority
over the police and nominally had no influence on the actions of the
Gestapo.
From November 1943 SS-generalen Günter Pancke, in the capacity of Höherer
SS und Polizeiführer Dänemark, was directly subordinate to Himmler and was
the head of all German police forces in Denmark. The chain of command
between Pancke and Bovensiepen was not clearly defined, and in reality
Bovensiep followed his own path, while Pancke had only little influence
over the Gestapo and had to seek the support of Orpo, the German Order
Police in Denmark."


> It says among other thing that
> the first chief of GESTAPO Dr. Mildner had opposed the action against the
> Jews (Like most of the other German top-nazis in Denmark).


It also states that his opposition of actions against the Jews and
hesitation to implement counterterrorrist actions were among the reasons
that he 'was eventually regarded as weak' [ "blev imidlertid anset for
svag"] and was replaced by the tougher SS-Standartenführer Otto
Bovensiepen, who took his orders directly from Ernst Kaltenbrunner in
Berlin, thus bypassing the nominal chief of police, Dr. Best.

> All the above-
> mentioned confirm what I have expressed before.
>

I'm afraid it doesn't. It just shows once again that you close your eyes to
the unpleasant truth about the final phase of the Nazi occupation of
Denmark, a phase which saw control of the situation rapidly slipping out of
the hands of the increasingly powerless Danish authorities and into the
hands of the Nazi authorities in Berlin.


>
> > In Norway where systematic
> >efforts to produce as many 'Aryan' children as possible went further than
> >anywhere else in Nazi-occupied Europe, official figures, thought to be
> >understated, state that between 6,000 and 12,000 children were produced.
> >Norway was also the location of the largest network of Lebensborn homes
> >outside of Germany. Why? Might not this statement have a bearing on the
> >matter:
> >
> If the there were supposed to be born more children in Norway, why would
> the help of the Germans be necessary. I think that the Norwegians could
> handle that problem alone.
>
> Had the Germans won the war they would have withdrawn from Denmark and
> Norway and concentrated themselves on their expansion to the East.
>

They would have done to Denmark and Norway the precise same thing they did
to Austria, the Sudetenland, and the Baltic countries: your genes would
have been harvested and used to 'purify' the Germans; your culture and
language would be allowed to atrophy and die.


> >"This is a Germanic people, so it is our duty to educate its children and
> >young people to make the Norwegians a Nordic people again, as we understa=
> >nd
> >the term.
>
> >It is definitely desirable that German soldiers should have as
> >many children as possible by Norwegian women, legitimately or
> >illegitimately."
>
> This sounds as shear madness to me. The Norwegians are more Nordic than
> the Germans. The Germans are a blend of Nordics, Alpines, Dinarics etc.
> The Germans are certainly lesser pure Nordic than any of the Scandinavian
> people. The Scandinavians are the true Nordics while the Germans are Central-
> Europeans.
>

This is precisely what Himmler believed, and that is why he and the
Lebensborn theorists were so interested in Scandinavia as a source of 'pure
Aryan blood'.

>
> Denmark was not officially an enemy of Germany. According to the Germans
> it was occupied in order to "protect it's neutrality". It would be hard for
> the Germans to legitimize any such steps against Denmark that never posed a
> security threat and not even a racial threat to Germany.

As Danish resistance to Nazi occupation grew, Denmark became more and more
an enemy. This is why its police affairs began to be directly administered
from Berlin, as stated above, why innocent Danish men were rounded up
arbitrarily on the street and shot in reprisal for terrorist actions
against the Germans, and why, in September, 1944, a substantial portion of
the Danish police force, 1,900 men, was arrested. shipped to Germany, and
interned at the Buchenwald concentration camp until the end of the war. On
a different level this is why both Himmler and the NSV
(National-Sozialistische Versorgung = Nazi Welfare) came to the conclusion
that a Lebensborn home was needed in Denmark, and saw the project through
to its conclusion.


>
> I have never heard of German soldiers chasing Danish girls. My mother
> was a young girl during the war and allthough she disliked the Germans and
> did so even before the war, she has never told anything about she or her
> friends being bothered by German soldiers. The worst thing she experienced
> was some German soldiers pointing at her with submachine guns and asked her
> for ID after a bridge in the vicinity had been blown up by the resistance.
>

Pardon my pointing this out, Ole, but you have an immature style of
arguing. Your information is based upon sources as credible as "I have
never heard of...", "as far as I know..", yet you arbitrarily disqualify
internationally recognized exports because "[t]he name...sounds Jewish to
me.[and] Jews are disqualified". Your extremely narrow-minded view of the
world would, presumably, disqualify me from talking about race-related
issues because I am African-American and thus "obsessed" by race, or
prohibit a Dane of mixed Danish-Pakistani, Danish-Nigerian, or Danish-Thai
background from enjoying a smørrebrød og øl or rødgrød med fløde because
he/she 'doesn't look I think Danes should look'. Enjoy and learn from the
diversity of the world, Ole, it won't go away, no matter how deep you stick
your head into the sand.

>
> I have heard so much about the German occupation from the old generation
> and former members of the resistence, and I have read a lot of books about
> this period, but I have certainly heard of nothing like Lebensborn politics
> imposed on Denmark. You will not find a single professional Danish historian
> that would agree with you.

We'll see about that...

>
> The Germans in general were not that obsessed with race. They were
> chauvinists and more obsessed with nationality. To the ordinary German
> race had something to with nationality.

The Germans in general were fighting, and losing, a two-front war. They
were more concerned with everyday matters such as survival. Nevertheless,
both the Lebensborn project and the mass murder of Jews and other members
of 'inferior races' in police actions and extermination camps on
Nazi-occupied territory continued right down to May, 1945. Keeping both of
these operations going required the efforts of hundreds of thousands of
Germans, if they as individuals were not necessarily obsessed by race, the
masters they were serving in Berlin were. As far as I can see, this serves
as ample demonstration that race, as understood by Nazi racial theorists,
was a primary determinant of German policy and actions during the war.

Marco de Innocentis

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Jul 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/11/97
to

Ole Kreiberg (o...@login.dknet.dk) wrote:

: Bullshit. The Germans regarded themselves the ultimate Aryans. Scandinavians,


: Dutchmen and Flemings were regarded as related Blood (verwandete Blut) and
: not the same. Nazism was first and foremost German chauvinism, and Danes were
: regarded secondclass Aryans. Hitler said several times that Nazism knows
: only Germany and is not meant for export.

The above is very, very inaccurate, as it fails to take several factors
into account.
It is true that, at least in Hitler's view, National Socialism was purely
German and not meant for export. However, this was only Hitler's view.
Unlike Stalin, Hitler did not make many efforts to remove every single
potential opponent. As a result, the political structure of nazi Germany
was much less centralised. Himmler and the SS had almost as much power as
Hitler himself, for instance. When Hitler decided to get rid of Ernst
Roehm in 1934, this was a very difficult move, and until a few months
later the outcome was still unsure. It would have been completely
impossible for Hitler to get rid of Himmler from the late 1930's until
the end.
Himmler's view was completely different from Hitler's. He was one of the
champions of the 'race' idea and the Lebensborn was one of his
brainchildren.

[...]

Marco

Ole Kreiberg

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Jul 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/11/97
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In article <holman-ya02408000...@news.helsinki.fi>, Eugene Holman wrote:
>
>The Lebensborn project affected the lives of hundreds of thousands of
>children in Germany, Holland, Norway, Denmark, Poland, and rump
>Czechoslovakia.

Then please give some examples from Denmark? Did they force people from
Holland and Norway into these places?

>The police actions of the Einsatzkommandos and
>extermination camps erected as part of the Final Solution affected the
>lives of the more than million Jewish, Gypsy, and Slavic children that
>perished in the Holocaust. These racially-defined courses of action were
>far from 'racial fantasies'.

I rather regard them as Anti-German wartime propaganda delusions.

>
>I have contacted the Danish Red Cross and asked for more information about
>the Copenhagen Lebensborn home. I shall post the answer here when I receive
>it.

I will be most grateful to get this information and will be even more
grateful to know why information about this alleged project was suppressed
in Denmark after the war and until now.

>
>From the German standpoint 'scruffy German blood' would be purified by the
>'purer Danish gene-pool'.

They still had many pure Nordics in Germany, perhaps several millions. They
could apply those instead of the Non-German Danes. By regarding Danes as more
Nordic than themselves they could have enhanced what they called Anti-German
chauvinism. The average Dane would have taken that as an admission that they
were better than the Germans and what would the German minority in Southern
Denmark feel about that?

>In conjunction with Lebensborn perhaps as many as
>200,000 'Aryan-looking' Slavic children were abducted and Germanized. The
>Nazis had a well-elaborated plan to 'Nordify' Germany, and Denmark had the
>necessary genetic material.

I am still very curious to know how they would have have implemented these
intentions in real life. Would they rape Danish women? Would they force
Nordic looking Danish men to have sex with selected German women? To me
nothing of this sort seem likable.

>> You should have translated this into English.
>
>Okay. The most important part states:
>
> "The first head of the Security Police was Dr. Mildner. He was eventually
>regarded as weak, and thus opposed operations against Danish Jews and
>hesitated to implement counterterrorism against the resistance. On January
>14, 1944 he was replaced by SS-Standartenführer Otto Bovensiepen, who
>remained in the position until the capitulation. Bovensiepen took his
>orders directly from [Ernst/EH] Kaltenbrunner [Chief of the Security Police
>and Security Service/EH] in Berlin bypassing Dr. Best who, after the state
>of emergency in September 1943, no longer the supreme command authority
>over the police and nominally had no influence on the actions of the
>Gestapo.

So what? All the counterterror and GESTAPO activities was caused by what the
Germans called the mini-war, that is the war between the Germans and the
the resistance.


> From November 1943 SS-generalen Günter Pancke, in the capacity of Höherer
>SS und Polizeiführer Dänemark, was directly subordinate to Himmler and was
>the head of all German police forces in Denmark. The chain of command
>between Pancke and Bovensiepen was not clearly defined, and in reality
>Bovensiep followed his own path, while Pancke had only little influence
>over the Gestapo and had to seek the support of Orpo, the German Order
>Police in Denmark."

And what do all this prove?

>
>It also states that his opposition of actions against the Jews and
>hesitation to implement counterterrorrist actions were among the reasons
>that he 'was eventually regarded as weak' [ "blev imidlertid anset for
>svag"] and was replaced by the tougher SS-Standartenführer Otto
>Bovensiepen, who took his orders directly from Ernst Kaltenbrunner in
>Berlin, thus bypassing the nominal chief of police, Dr. Best.
>

Remember no Germans were executed after the war. Werner Best, the top leader
was 6 years in a Danish prison. Panche and Bovensiepen were 8 years in
prison, while 37 Danes were executed for having killed their own countrymen
in German service. The activities of those German top-officials did not
amount to the death penalty.

>> All the above-
>> mentioned confirm what I have expressed before.
>>
>
>I'm afraid it doesn't. It just shows once again that you close your eyes to
>the unpleasant truth about the final phase of the Nazi occupation of
>Denmark, a phase which saw control of the situation rapidly slipping out of
>the hands of the increasingly powerless Danish authorities and into the
>hands of the Nazi authorities in Berlin.

The situation became more and more like regular war as the resistance grew.

>
>They would have done to Denmark and Norway the precise same thing they did
>to Austria, the Sudetenland, and the Baltic countries: your genes would
>have been harvested and used to 'purify' the Germans; your culture and
>language would be allowed to atrophy and die.

You severely lack evidence for this allegation.

>> This sounds as shear madness to me. The Norwegians are more Nordic than
>> the Germans. The Germans are a blend of Nordics, Alpines, Dinarics etc.
>> The Germans are certainly lesser pure Nordic than any of the Scandinavian
>> people. The Scandinavians are the true Nordics while the Germans are Central-
>> Europeans.
>>
>
>This is precisely what Himmler believed, and that is why he and the
>Lebensborn theorists were so interested in Scandinavia as a source of 'pure
>Aryan blood'.
>

Hm I once heard that 8 per cent of the German population lived up to the
Nordic racial ideal. That is several millions. How many Danes would? 20 per
cent or less than a million I guess. I think that it for many reasons would
have been much more practical to concentrate on the former groups.

>
>As Danish resistance to Nazi occupation grew, Denmark became more and more
>an enemy. This is why its police affairs began to be directly administered
>from Berlin, as stated above, why innocent Danish men were rounded up
>arbitrarily on the street and shot in reprisal for terrorist actions
>against the Germans

Oh this old lie again that innocent Danish men were rounded up arbitrarily
on the street and shot. We had this discussion more than a year ago. You
were asked to come up with evidence for this allegation and you even
enquired at the resistance museum in Copenhagen. This and all your other
sources did not tell anything about people being arbitrarily rounded up
in the streets and shot. There were only the clearing murders (alltogether
115) and the victims of these actions were carefully selected from GESTAPOs
files over "subversive and Anti-Germans elements" often people suspected for
being members of the resistence, but of whom there were not enough evidence
to make an arrest.

>, and why, in September, 1944, a substantial portion of
>the Danish police force, 1,900 men, was arrested. shipped to Germany, and
>interned at the Buchenwald concentration camp until the end of the war. On
>a different level this is why both Himmler and the NSV
>(National-Sozialistische Versorgung = Nazi Welfare) came to the conclusion
>that a Lebensborn home was needed in Denmark, and saw the project through
>to its conclusion.

Toward the end of the war Danish authorities including the police became
less and less interested in cooperating with the Germans as it became
obvious that the Germany would lose the war.

> Enjoy and learn from the
>diversity of the world, Ole, it won't go away, no matter how deep you stick
>your head into the sand.

Diversity sucks. Every country should be ethnic homogenous.

>
>>
>> I have heard so much about the German occupation from the old generation
>> and former members of the resistence, and I have read a lot of books about
>> this period, but I have certainly heard of nothing like Lebensborn politics
>> imposed on Denmark. You will not find a single professional Danish historian
>> that would agree with you.
>
>We'll see about that...

I look forward.

> As far as I can see, this serves as ample demonstration that race, as
>understood by Nazi racial theorists, was a primary determinant of German
>policy and actions during the war.

The primary determinant of Nazi-Germany was Germany and the Deutschtum
(that is the Germanness or the German ethnic identity). The nazis wanted
to raise Germany after the humiliation of the Versailles Treaty and make
Germany the greatest country in the world. The race issue was secondary to
this.

Ole Kreiberg

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Jul 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/12/97
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In article <1997071217...@oravannahka.Helsinki.FI>, Eugene Holman wrote:
>
>TRANSLATION FROM Georg LILIENTHAL, *Der "Lebensborn e.V.": ein

>>Instrument nationalsozialistischer Rassenpolitik*, Mainz, Akademie der
>>Wissenschaften und der Literatur. Forschungen zur neueren Medizin- und
>>Biologiegeschichte. 1985. ISBN 3-437-10939-1, PG. 192 ff.
>

The following excerpt is not that bad. It is rather objective and
unemotional. I can find anything that I really disagree with. No tales of
raping hordes of German soldier or innocent Danish girls being abducted to
sinister SS stud-farms in order to be transformed into Aryan breeding
machines.

I have done some research concerning Lebensborn places in Norway. These
seemed to be pure orphanages for children born out of wedlock with a German
soldier as the father. In those days it was a shame and stigmatizing for a
girl to give birth to a child out of wedlock and such a child very
often ended up in an orphanage from where it was put out for adoption. I
cannot see that it was an evil act that Germany took responsibility for this
problem by having these German-Norwegian children adopted to German parents,
as long as child was not conceived by rape and not taken away against the
will of the mother. These children were as little desired by the Norwegian
society as the German occupation itself. I also refuse to believe that the
German soldiers had any orders or instructions of getting into bed with as
many Norwegian or Danish girls as possible.

Marco de Innocentis

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Jul 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/12/97
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Ole Kreiberg (o...@login.dknet.dk) wrote:

: Hitler often complained towards the end of the war that Himmler was a bit of
: a visionary.

Irrelevant.

: Already back in the twenties he cleansed the party of many


: racial visionaries. Rudolph Sebottendorf and Marby were good examples.
: Sebottendorf had to go in exile in Turkey and Marby spent many years in
: Dachau after Hitler had come to power. Lanz von Liebenfeld was banned from
: publishing. Hitler detested racial (voelkisch) visionaries and shortly
: before his death he falled out with Himmler and condemned him as racial
: dreamer.

Nonsense. Those people did not fall out with Hitler *because* they were
racial visionaries. Himmler fell out with Hitler because on April 28 1945
he made an offer of unilateral surrender to the western allies without
consulting the Fuehrer - not because he was a racial visionary. For that
matter, Hitler was a racial visionary himself, although not as much as
Himmler or Rosenberg. Read 'Mein Kampf' and you will find many occasions
in which Hitler praises the merits and virtues of the 'nordic race'
against other 'inferior' peoples.

: Racial fantasies of this sort were very common in Germany and Austria even


: before Hitler was born. "Ariosophie" and "Voelkisch" were the terms for this
: tradition.

True, but what is it suppose to prove?

: >Himmler is on record as having expressed the desire to see not only the


: >Dutchmen and Flemings, but also the Danes, Norwegians, Finland-Swedes,
: >Icelanders, Alsatians, English, and even North Americans of Aryan descent
: >who fit his racial ideal united in one racially uniform Germanic Reich.

: Hm Goering once said about Heinrich Himmler: "Himmler has a brain and that
: is Heydrich".

Irrelevant. For ages politicians have been making nasty remarks and jokes
about each other.

: I say Himmler's fantasies were far-fetched and total


: unrealistic. It is easy understand Hitler's anger at him because of that.

Irrelevant.

: >Similarly, here are numerous records of Himmler having overseen the


: >workings of the Lebensborn program, which involved having racially 'pure'
: >SS men and German soldiers sire as many children as possible in
: >Nazi-occupied Norway, Denmark, and Holland, and having 'Aryanoid' childre=

: In real life there were no attempts of this kind. Which Danish girls
: would like to have something to do with the despiced German soldiers?
: Hookers? Were there any examples of rape in order to implement this plan?
: Are there any examples of girls being kidnapped and abducted to these
: Lebensborn places? How would they in real life motivate Danish girls to
: participate in this "weird Kraut stuff".

: The average Dane may be a little more Nordic than the average German. Who
: would benefit from the purer Danish gene-pool being polluted by the lesser
: German Central-European one. If the Danish gene-pool really was so valuable
: to them, then why polluting with scruffy German blood. This makes no sense
: to me.

Indeed, it does not seem to make much sense to me either.

: >in Nazi-occupied Poland and Czecholovakia kidnapped from their homes and


: >sent to Germany for Germanization. I refer you to the standard work on th=
: >is
: >aspect of Nazi policy: Georg LILIENTHAL, *Der "Lebensborn e.V.": ein
: >Instrument nationalsozialistischer Rassenpolitik*, Mainz, Akademie der
: >Wissenschaften und der Literatur. Forschungen zur neueren Medizin- und
: >Biologiegeschichte. 1985. ISBN 3-437-10939-1.

: The name Lillienthal sounds Jewish to me. Jews are disqualified from making
: a fair and objective judgement of this period because they are a part of the
: case.

The name Kreiberg sounds German to me. Germans are disqualified from


making a fair and objective judgement of this period because they are a

part of the case (and Danes too, for that matter).

[...]

: Bah, Himmler the visionary. Remember Hitler was the undisputed boss and


: dictator, and if Himmler did not submit to Hitler and his policy he would
: possibly have had to share the same fate as the Ernst Roehm, the leader of
: the SA.

False. At the time of the Night of the Long Knives Hitler was Reichskanzler
and had on his side the whole army and the police. What did Roehm have on
his side? A few thousand poorly armed and badly trained scumbags, whose
only combat experience had been street fights, and which at the time were
scattered all over Germany (on vacation).
For Himmler the situation was completely different. From the late 30's
until the beginning of May 1945 he was the undisputed leader of the SS
("Reichsfuehrer SS") and therefore head of the Gestapo, the SD
(Sicherheitsdienst) _and_ the police. Add to this the Waffen-SS, which
were much more selected, highly trained and well-equipped than ordinary
Wehrmacht troops.
Your comparison doesn't hold.

: > In Norway where systematic


: >efforts to produce as many 'Aryan' children as possible went further than
: >anywhere else in Nazi-occupied Europe, official figures, thought to be
: >understated, state that between 6,000 and 12,000 children were produced.
: >Norway was also the location of the largest network of Lebensborn homes
: >outside of Germany. Why? Might not this statement have a bearing on the
: >matter:
: >
: If the there were supposed to be born more children in Norway, why would
: the help of the Germans be necessary. I think that the Norwegians could
: handle that problem alone.

: Had the Germans won the war they would have withdrawn from Denmark and
: Norway and concentrated themselves on their expansion to the East.

The Germans would most likely have withdrawn militarily, leaving behind
sympathetic and friendly governments, whose power would have been based on
German support.

: >"This is a Germanic people, so it is our duty to educate its children and


: >young people to make the Norwegians a Nordic people again, as we understa=
: >nd
: >the term.

: >It is definitely desirable that German soldiers should have as
: >many children as possible by Norwegian women, legitimately or
: >illegitimately."

: This sounds as shear madness to me. The Norwegians are more Nordic than
: the Germans. The Germans are a blend of Nordics, Alpines, Dinarics etc.
: The Germans are certainly lesser pure Nordic than any of the Scandinavian
: people. The Scandinavians are the true Nordics while the Germans are Central-
: Europeans.

What you say about the Germans is true, especially southern Germans or
Austrians.

: >>=20


: >> This bullshit is cowardly German attempts to export some of their "gu=
: >ilt"
: >> to Denmark. No decent Dane would ever even think of identifying themsel=
: >ves
: >> as other than being innocent victims of the "evil", alien and f.....g G=
: >ermans
: >> during WW2.

: >

: Denmark was not officially an enemy of Germany. According to the Germans


: it was occupied in order to "protect it's neutrality". It would be hard for
: the Germans to legitimize any such steps against Denmark that never posed a
: security threat and not even a racial threat to Germany.

It was pretty hard to legitimise the Anschluss in 1938 and the invasion of
Chechoslovakia in 1939, yet they managed it pretty well.

: >The tens of thousands of


: >'racially irreproachable' children produced in conjunction with Operation
: >Lebensborn were to be a part of this long-term plan, a nucleus of
: >German-Norwegian, German-Danish etc. children who would form the post-war
: >Nordic-Germanic elite. Have you asked somebody who lived through the
: >occupation about the special connotations of the word *tyskert=F8s*?

: Sure but a Danish girl getting a child with a German soldier would do every-
: thing to deny or hide the identity of the father out of shame.

I remember one story which I read in the book by Lilienthal. It was about
a Norwegian girl who had a child from a German soldier (as far as I
remember she had not been raped). It seems that she was indeed regarded
as a kind of outcast because of this, and the child ended up in a
Lebensborn home (perhaps this example could provide an explanation for
that seemingly irrational order?).

: How would the


: Germans be able to indentify these children? Those girls that fraternized
: with the German soldiers came from lowest social steps of society and were
: the most unintelligent and thereby the most genitically undesired for
: benefitting the Germans. No normal girl would mingle with the Germans and
: thereby being regarded with a status lower than hooker by her countrymen.

[...]

: I have heard so much about the German occupation from the old generation


: and former members of the resistence, and I have read a lot of books about
: this period, but I have certainly heard of nothing like Lebensborn politics
: imposed on Denmark. You will not find a single professional Danish historian
: that would agree with you.

The Lebensborn program was not "imposed" on Denmark. If I remember
correctly the only Danish and generally Scandinavian children brought up
in the Lebensborn homes were those which were brought there by their
mothers, voluntarily. It was not easy to bring up a child in wartime,
and a few Scandinavian mothers (especially those who had had children from
German soldiers) ended up bringing their children to Lebensborn homes.
The situation was completely different in Poland, for instance, where
many children were forcibly kidnapped and taken over to Germany.

[...]

Marco de Innocentis


Eugene Holman

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Jul 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/12/97
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In article <3L0npOev...@login.dknet.dk>, o...@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) wrote:

> In article <1997070913...@oravannahka.Helsinki.FI>, Eugene Holman
wrote:

.
>
> >Similarly, here are numerous records of Himmler having overseen the
> >workings of the Lebensborn program, which involved having racially 'pure'
> >SS men and German soldiers sire as many children as possible in
> >Nazi-occupied Norway, Denmark, and Holland, and having 'Aryanoid' childre=
>
> In real life there were no attempts of this kind. Which Danish girls
> would like to have something to do with the despiced German soldiers?
> Hookers? Were there any examples of rape in order to implement this plan?
> Are there any examples of girls being kidnapped and abducted to these
> Lebensborn places? How would they in real life motivate Danish girls to
> participate in this "weird Kraut stuff".
>

> I have never heard of German soldiers chasing Danish girls. My mother


> was a young girl during the war and allthough she disliked the Germans and
> did so even before the war, she has never told anything about she or her
> friends being bothered by German soldiers. The worst thing she experienced
> was some German soldiers pointing at her with submachine guns and asked her
> for ID after a bridge in the vicinity had been blown up by the resistance.
>

TRANSLATION FROM Georg LILIENTHAL, *Der "Lebensborn e.V.": ein


>Instrument nationalsozialistischer Rassenpolitik*, Mainz, Akademie der
>Wissenschaften und der Literatur. Forschungen zur neueren Medizin- und

>Biologiegeschichte. 1985. ISBN 3-437-10939-1, PG. 192 ff.


Denmark
As a Scandinavian country Denmark enjoyed the same type of favorable
attitude with the race policy makers as Norway did. Although Denmark had
been a part of the German domain since 1940, just as Norway and the
Netherlands had been, the Lebensborn program only became active there much
later. The justification for this was primarily the fact that after the
occupation the Danes retained their national sovereignty under their own
government and were thus able to formally remain in charge.
By the end of 1940 the number of illegitimate children fathered by German
soldiers also increased. When it was made known to the plenipotentiary of
the German Reich that the Supreme Command of the Armed Forces was on the
verge of unilaterally passing a decree to regulate this problem, his bureau
referred to the fact that the legal position of the German occupying forces
was different than it was in the other occupied territories (125). The
warning only had a postponing effect. In his January 1941 proposal to the
Reich Chancellery regarding the support of illegitimate children fathered
by German soldiers in occupied foreign countries, the Supreme Command of
the Armed Forces noted that Denmark "as of yet [had] hardly" been taken
into consideration (126). In the meantime, a German-Danish Clearing
Commission for the Regulation of Child Support Obligations was established
with the consent of the Danish government. This commission began operations
on September 1, 1941 (127). Within the next twelve months more than 700
paternity suits wre reported, of which about 50% were acknowledged (128).
Since the German side had not yet made any final administrative
arrangements for the demands for child support lodged by the mothers, it
became increasingly difficult to finance them. Finally the Supreme Command
of the Armed Forces passed legislation that the Führer Decree of July 28,
1942 would extend to Denmark. And once again, the German representative in
Copenhagen, Dr. Best, raised his voice admonishingly, saying that he
considered this legislation "to be intolerable for political reasons [...]
since it reduced Denmark to the status of Holland and Norway, which was in
contradiction with the actual legal situation" (129). The Supreme Command
of the Armed Forces backstepped. On August 9, 1943 the Ministerial Council
for the Defence of the Reich, as proxy for the government, passed a special
Statute for the Determination of Demands for Support of Danish Children
against Members of the German Armed Forces [Verordnung über die
Feststellung von Unterhaltsansprüchen dänischer Kinder gegen deutsche
Wehrmachtsangehörige] (130). This decree made the statute for determining
the obligation to support illegitimate children relatively analogous to
that of the statute of July 28, 1942 in addition to which it prescribed the
implementation procedure of February 13, 1943.
In the same month the political conditions in Denmark changed. After the
demission of the Danish government and the disarming of the Danish
military, German influence in the country increased, although it did not
attain the level it had in other occupied territories (131). In these
conditions a new power factor arose in the form of a Higher SS and Police
Leader in Copenhagen (132). This development was not without its effect on
the Lebensborn program. As late as September 9, 1942 Himmler, answering the
question which he had ordered the Lebensborn to present to him concerning
the issue of whether the program should begin operations in Denmark, had
responded negatively (133). Six months later he agreed to a 'slow beginning
of operations' (134). The preparations for the Statute of August 9, 1943
provided one of the reasons for his change of mind. On January 13, 1944,
five weeks after the appointment of the Higher SS and Police Leader,
Himmler finally announced the project to have a Lebensborn Facility
constructed on Danish territory (135). Ebner, as he states in his report
about his inspection tour in February 1944, found that great interest was
demonstrated at all facilities in the plan to open a Lebensborn home (136).
The need for a maternity facility had evidently been regarded as extremely
great, since he mentions that the German National Welfare Program (NSV) had
similar plans. The constructon work proceded extremely slowly due to war
conditions. It was only at the beginning of December that
SS-Sturmbahnführer Ziesmer, until then head of the Main Division *Arbeit*
in the Lebensborn central administration, was sent from Munich to
Copenhagen. There he equipped a maternity home which was ready to receive
patients in May, 1945. In the weeks of the collapse of the German Reich the
home was made available to the Red Cross as a clinic for female German
refugees from eastern territories.

***********
Footnotes
125. A message from Kansteins, an employee of the authorities under the
Plenipotentiary of the German Reich, to the Foreign Office, Dec. 14, 1940:
Rechtsabt. Refereat VI, Akte 26/7.

127. Message from the Supreme Command of the Armed Forces to the Reichs
Chancellery, Jan. 13, 1941. BA:R 43 II/1520a, Bl. 149.

128. Message from the Supreme Command of the Armed Forces to the Foreign
Office, Sept. 19, 1942.

129. Message from Dr. Best to the Foreign Office, April 2, 1943.

130. RGBL. 1943 I, pg. 495 f. The German side had had reservations
concerning officially involving the Danes in the implementation of the
statute...

131. On the political conditions in Denmark during the the Second World
War, see Erich Thomsen: *Deutsche Besatzungspolitik in Dänemark 1940-1945*,
Düsseldorf 1971.

132. Ibid, pg. 192f. and p. 223.

133. Entry in letter diary of the personal staff RFSS "1942 AR" under No.
26/54/42. BA: NS 19/Zg. DC 17.

134. Message to Sollmann of March 24, 1943. Entry in letter diary of the
personal staff RFSS "1942 Geheim" under No. 26/23/43g. BA: NS 19/Zg. DC 18.

135. Entry in letter diary of the personal staff RFSS "1942 Sachlich" under
No. 26/4/44. BA: NS 19/Zg. DC 23.

136. Report from Feb. 2, 1944. ITS: L-Ordner 13, Bll. 115-117.

137. Deposition under oath of Willy Ziesmer of jan. 5, 1948. Sollmann Doc.
Nr. 54., pg. 15. Cf. the report of the Higher SS and Police Leader in
Denmark, maintenance commando, of April 9, 1945, in which it says that
cooperation of the Lebensborn project with care of refugees has been begun.

Ole Kreiberg

unread,
Jul 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/13/97
to

In article <5q8mho$9...@news.ox.ac.uk>, Marco de Innocentis wrote:

>
>The name Kreiberg sounds German to me.

Yeah and to others in particular in the English speaking world it sounds
Jewish, but it is clearly proven to be Danish.

>
>False. At the time of the Night of the Long Knives Hitler was Reichskanzler
>and had on his side the whole army and the police. What did Roehm have on
>his side? A few thousand poorly armed and badly trained scumbags, whose
>only combat experience had been street fights, and which at the time were
>scattered all over Germany (on vacation).
>For Himmler the situation was completely different. From the late 30's
>until the beginning of May 1945 he was the undisputed leader of the SS
>("Reichsfuehrer SS") and therefore head of the Gestapo, the SD
>(Sicherheitsdienst) _and_ the police. Add to this the Waffen-SS, which
>were much more selected, highly trained and well-equipped than ordinary
>Wehrmacht troops.
>Your comparison doesn't hold.


In a dictatorship the dictator is the undisputed leader who does not have to
share the power with anybody else. This was the way it was according to
the nazi-ideology.

>
>The Germans would most likely have withdrawn militarily, leaving behind
>sympathetic and friendly governments, whose power would have been based on
>German support.

The Danish legal elected goverments from 1940-43 under the leadership of
social democratic prime ministers were already friendly enough. The Germans
preferred to deal with them and not the very small Danish nazi-party.

>
>It was pretty hard to legitimise the Anschluss in 1938 and the invasion of
>Chechoslovakia in 1939, yet they managed it pretty well.

The Anschluss with Austria was not that difficult to legitimize. A lot of
Austrians (the Austrian socialists included) wanted a referendum already back in
the twenties about incoperation of Austria in Germany. This was however
denied them according to the Versailles Treaty. The Austrians are German
speaking people and feel that they are a kind of Germans. Remember Hitler
was an Austrian.

Klaus Günther Beck

unread,
Jul 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/14/97
to

Ole Kreiberg wrote:
>
> In article <1997071217...@oravannahka.Helsinki.FI>, Eugene Holman wrote:
> >
> >TRANSLATION FROM Georg LILIENTHAL, *Der "Lebensborn e.V.": ein

> >>Instrument nationalsozialistischer Rassenpolitik*, Mainz, Akademie der
> >>Wissenschaften und der Literatur. Forschungen zur neueren Medizin- und
> >>Biologiegeschichte. 1985. ISBN 3-437-10939-1, PG. 192 ff.
> >
>
> The following excerpt is not that bad. It is rather objective and
> unemotional. I can find anything that I really disagree with. No tales of
> raping hordes of German soldier or innocent Danish girls being abducted to
> sinister SS stud-farms in order to be transformed into Aryan breeding
> machines.

Nobody ( aside from You ) has made any claim into this direction. None
of the sources we cited till now made this claim. So, what do You want
to prove here?

>
> I have done some research concerning Lebensborn places in Norway. These
> seemed to be pure orphanages for children born out of wedlock with a German
> soldier as the father. In those days it was a shame and stigmatizing for a
> girl to give birth to a child out of wedlock and such a child very
> often ended up in an orphanage from where it was put out for adoption.

Not quite right. The Lebensborn homes were places where the pregnant
women could bring the children to world. It was not an orphanage.

I
> cannot see that it was an evil act that Germany took responsibility for this
> problem by having these German-Norwegian children adopted to German parents,
> as long as child was not conceived by rape and not taken away against the
> will of the mother.

The evil here is stupidity. To bait women with medical care and money
into pregnancy to enhance the German race through scandinavian blood. If
You cannot see the evil here, then Your mind is out of whack.

These children were as little desired by the Norwegian
> society as the German occupation itself.

Which is the reason why there wasn´t much talk about it afterwards.

I also refuse to believe that the
> German soldiers had any orders or instructions of getting into bed with as
> many Norwegian or Danish girls as possible.

But they had. You should sometimes read MASTER RACE, where this is
documented and where You find annotations that lead directly to the
historical documents.
If they didn´t have enough children they weren´t promoted.
>

Klaus Günther Beck

unread,
Jul 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/14/97
to

Ole Kreiberg wrote:
>
> In article <5q8mho$9...@news.ox.ac.uk>, Marco de Innocentis wrote:
>
> >
> >The name Kreiberg sounds German to me.
>
> Yeah and to others in particular in the English speaking world it sounds
> Jewish, but it is clearly proven to be Danish.
>
> >
> >False. At the time of the Night of the Long Knives Hitler was Reichskanzler
> >and had on his side the whole army and the police. What did Roehm have on
> >his side? A few thousand poorly armed and badly trained scumbags, whose
> >only combat experience had been street fights, and which at the time were
> >scattered all over Germany (on vacation).
> >For Himmler the situation was completely different. From the late 30's
> >until the beginning of May 1945 he was the undisputed leader of the SS
> >("Reichsfuehrer SS") and therefore head of the Gestapo, the SD
> >(Sicherheitsdienst) _and_ the police. Add to this the Waffen-SS, which
> >were much more selected, highly trained and well-equipped than ordinary
> >Wehrmacht troops.
> >Your comparison doesn't hold.
>
> In a dictatorship the dictator is the undisputed leader who does not have to
> share the power with anybody else. This was the way it was according to
> the nazi-ideology.
>
> >
> >The Germans would most likely have withdrawn militarily, leaving behind
> >sympathetic and friendly governments, whose power would have been based on
> >German support.
>
> The Danish legal elected goverments from 1940-43 under the leadership of
> social democratic prime ministers were already friendly enough. The Germans
> preferred to deal with them and not the very small Danish nazi-party.
>
> >
> >It was pretty hard to legitimise the Anschluss in 1938 and the invasion of
> >Chechoslovakia in 1939, yet they managed it pretty well.
>
> The Anschluss with Austria was not that difficult to legitimize. A lot of
> Austrians (the Austrian socialists included) wanted a referendum already back in
> the twenties about incoperation of Austria in Germany. This was however
> denied them according to the Versailles Treaty. The Austrians are German
> speaking people and feel that they are a kind of Germans. Remember Hitler
> was an Austrian.
>
Yes, Hitler was an Austrian. But the Anschluss was not altogether what
most Austrians wanted. Especially not after Hitler came to power in
Germany. And for the Austrians feeling German: Ask the Austrians, if
they would be rather German. You might get the same answer when You ask
a Scotsman ( English-speaking ) if he would be rather English. ( Be sure
You have paid Your health-insurance. )

Klaus Günther Beck

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Jul 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/17/97
to

Ole Kreiberg wrote:
>
> >
>
> The Germans in general were not that obsessed with race. They were
> chauvinists and more obsessed with nationality. To the ordinary German
> race had something to with nationality.
>
Sorry, but this is surely the most stupid thing You ever wrote.


Ole Kreiberg

unread,
Jul 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/17/97
to

KlausGue...@t-online.de wrote

>Yes, Hitler was an Austrian. But the Anschluss was not altogether what
>most Austrians wanted. Especially not after Hitler came to power in
>Germany. And for the Austrians feeling German: Ask the Austrians, if
>they would be rather German.

Today they may be like that. However there were strong movements in both
Germany and Austria for an "Anscluss" in particular around the turn of
the century. Hitler was an Austrian who regarded himself a part of the
German people. There were many of his kind in Austria in his time.

>You might get the same answer when You ask
>a Scotsman ( English-speaking ) if he would be rather English. ( Be sure
>You have paid Your health-insurance. )

But there are still a lot of Scotsmen that accept to be a part of the
United Kingdom.

Klaus Günther Beck

unread,
Jul 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/17/97
to

Ole Kreiberg wrote:
>
> KlausGue...@t-online.de wrote
>
> >Yes, Hitler was an Austrian. But the Anschluss was not altogether what
> >most Austrians wanted. Especially not after Hitler came to power in
> >Germany. And for the Austrians feeling German: Ask the Austrians, if
> >they would be rather German.
>
> Today they may be like that. However there were strong movements in both
> Germany and Austria for an "Anscluss" in particular around the turn of
> the century.

No, there weren´t. The Austrian monarchy and the German monarchies were
always very interested to keep things seperated. There has been a
NS-party in Austria ( as there has been in Great Britain ) before the
ANSCHLUß and they made a lot of trouble. But they can not be seen as the
gros of the Austrians.

Hitler was an Austrian who regarded himself a part of the
> German people. There were many of his kind in Austria in his time.

Only in the border-areas. If You went into the cities the situation was
different. Near the Austrian-Hungarian border it was certainly
different, as it was in many other areas.

>
> >You might get the same answer when You ask
> >a Scotsman ( English-speaking ) if he would be rather English. ( Be sure
> >You have paid Your health-insurance. )
>

> But there are still a lot of Scotsmen that accept to be a part of the
> United Kingdom.
> --
I have been to Scotland very recently and I would say You are wrong.

Ole Kreiberg

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Jul 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/17/97
to

KlausGue...@t-online.de wrote:


>Not quite right. The Lebensborn homes were places where the pregnant
>women could bring the children to world. It was not an orphanage.

Yeah this sounds like a real evil war crime. ;-)


>The evil here is stupidity. To bait women with medical care and money
>into pregnancy to enhance the German race through scandinavian blood. If
>You cannot see the evil here, then Your mind is out of whack.

And do you have any evidence that they were paid money? Anyway, even
prostitutes are paid money?


>> I also refuse to believe that the
>> German soldiers had any orders or instructions of getting into bed with as
>> many Norwegian or Danish girls as possible.

> But they had. You should sometimes read MASTER RACE, where this is
> documented and where You find annotations that lead directly to the
> historical documents.

I cannot speak for the Norwegian situation but here in Denmark there are
kept documents of the instructions to the German soldiers concerning the
behaviour toward the civilians, and you will find nothing of this sort.
It is most unlikely that they would have such instructions as they already
had enough desired blood among their own people to work on. However during
every military ocupation there are fraternizing. This is a sad fact.
How many children out of wedlock between American occupational soldiers and
German girls have been born in Germany since 1945? Not few as far as I
know.

Klaus Günther Beck

unread,
Jul 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/17/97
to

Ole Kreiberg wrote:
>
> KlausGue...@t-online.de wrote:
>
> >Not quite right. The Lebensborn homes were places where the pregnant
> >women could bring the children to world. It was not an orphanage.
>
> Yeah this sounds like a real evil war crime. ;-)

Really funny.

>
> >The evil here is stupidity. To bait women with medical care and money
> >into pregnancy to enhance the German race through scandinavian blood. If
> >You cannot see the evil here, then Your mind is out of whack.
>
> And do you have any evidence that they were paid money?

No, they got medical attention and care. This is also documented in
MASTER RACE, which You don´t want to read.

Anyway, even
> prostitutes are paid money?

Even prostitutes are paid money. Now, especially prostitutes are paid
money. The question is not what good LEBENSBORN did for the single
women. The question is, what was its aim. And how was the policy used as
a whole. The question is: What was the idea behind LEBENSBORN.


>
> >> I also refuse to believe that the
> >> German soldiers had any orders or instructions of getting into bed with as
> >> many Norwegian or Danish girls as possible.
>
> > But they had. You should sometimes read MASTER RACE, where this is
> > documented and where You find annotations that lead directly to the
> > historical documents.
>
> I cannot speak for the Norwegian situation but here in Denmark there are
> kept documents of the instructions to the German soldiers concerning the
> behaviour toward the civilians, and you will find nothing of this sort.

Could You for a change give verifyable reference to them? MASTER RACE
gives this kind of references, You know?

> It is most unlikely that they would have such instructions as they already
> had enough desired blood among their own people to work on.

They hadn´t. See the witnesses at the Nuremberg-trial where Adolf Hitler
was quoted saying that if need be Eastern children which have of the
blood wanted should be kidnapped from their parents.


However during
> every military ocupation there are fraternizing. This is a sad fact.
> How many children out of wedlock between American occupational soldiers and
> German girls have been born in Germany since 1945? Not few as far as I
> know.
>

Which is of course absolutely beside the point. The idea of Operation
Lebensborn was to garantue the existence of children out of wedlock that
then would be adopted by SS-families. The children in these houses were
not only those born in Norway or Danemark but also those kidnapped in
the Eastern occupied areas. They came into this homes for re-education
and/or indoctrination. Which is something else.

Ole Kreiberg

unread,
Jul 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/20/97
to

KlausGue...@t-online.de (Klaus Głnther Beck) wrote:

>Ole Kreiberg wrote:
>
>> So what. I do not owe these people anything - and certainly not any
>> particular respect.

>Well, if You doi not have a particular interest and sprout Your dreck
>here anyway than You are nothing but a moral cripple.

Hey what is so moral about having a political correct view on the events
of WW2. Please explain why the alleged victims of WW2 are more important
than the victims of Djengis Khan or Joseph Stalin for that matter. Germany
is not the center of the world.

Ole Kreiberg

unread,
Jul 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/20/97
to


KlausGue...@t-online.de wrote:


>Ole Kreiberg wrote:
>
>>>The evil here is stupidity. To bait women with medical care and money
>>>into pregnancy to enhance the German race through scandinavian blood. If
>>>You cannot see the evil here, then Your mind is out of whack.

>> And do you have any evidence that they were paid money?

>No, they got medical attention and care. This is also documented in

>MASTER RACE, which You don+t want to read.

But Denmark had the highest standard of living among all the European
countries involved in the war - inclusive of Germany. The supplies were
much more abundant here than in Germany. What could these Lebensbornplaces
offer Danish women that the Danish welfarestate could not - beside of course
adoption of undisered children?

>Even prostitutes are paid money. Now, especially prostitutes are paid
>money. The question is not what good LEBENSBORN did for the single
>women. The question is, what was its aim. And how was the policy used as
>a whole. The question is: What was the idea behind LEBENSBORN.

The idea of upgrading the genepool was excellent it was only the possible
means that may be questionable.


>
>> I cannot speak for the Norwegian situation but here in Denmark there are
>> kept documents of the instructions to the German soldiers concerning the
>> behaviour toward the civilians, and you will find nothing of this sort.

>Could You for a change give verifyable reference to them? MASTER RACE
>gives this kind of references, You know?

I have seen the actual instructions on display in the resistance museum in
Copenhagen.

>> It is most unlikely that they would have such instructions as they already


>> had enough desired blood among their own people to work on.

>They hadn+t. See the witnesses at the Nuremberg-trial where Adolf Hitler


>was quoted saying that if need be Eastern children which have of the
>blood wanted should be kidnapped from their parents.

I do not give a dime for the socalled witnesses of the despicable Nuremberg
Kangaroo-Trial.

>Which is of course absolutely beside the point. The idea of Operation
>Lebensborn was to garantue the existence of children out of wedlock that
>then would be adopted by SS-families. The children in these houses were
>not only those born in Norway or Danemark

Please give me just one example from the real world of a Danish child
adopted to a German family during WW2.

Klaus Günther Beck

unread,
Jul 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/20/97
to

Ole Kreiberg wrote:
>
> KlausGue...@t-online.de (Klaus Głnther Beck) wrote:
>
> >Ole Kreiberg wrote:
> >
> >> So what. I do not owe these people anything - and certainly not any
> >> particular respect.
>
> >Well, if You doi not have a particular interest and sprout Your dreck
> >here anyway than You are nothing but a moral cripple.
>
> Hey what is so moral about having a political correct view on the events
> of WW2. Please explain why the alleged victims of WW2 are more important
> than the victims of Djengis Khan or Joseph Stalin for that matter. Germany
> is not the center of the world.
>
Nobody says that the vistims of Stalin are less important than the
victims in WW II. I never said anything like this. But we were talking
about GErmany. Do not mix issues.

Klaus Günther Beck

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Jul 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/20/97
to

Ole Kreiberg wrote:
>
Read the book. There is all the reference and all the examples You will
need. THe fact that You call Nuremberg a Kangoroo-trial is again quite
interesting concerning Your interest in historical truth.

Hey, folks,

once more I want to give You a little documentation about the realities
of the Third Reich and about what happened. This post gives You some
quotations from the verdict at the Nuremberg trial, which some of our
revisionist „friends“ believe to have been a communist charade. My
source is „Das Urteil von Nürnberg, 1946“ as published in the fourth
edition by dtv, Munich. The translation from German is solely my
fault;-) But everybody can look up the text for himself to see if my
translation is wrong in spirit.

The Participants

„On August 8, 1945, the goverments of the United Kingdoms of Great
Britain and Ireland, the goverment of the United States of America, the
provisional goverment of the republic of France and the Union of the
Socialistic Soviet-Republics have made an agreement, stating that this
court would be created to try war-criminals for whose crimes a
geographical fixed scene-of-crime is not verifyable. Following Art. 5 of
this agreement the following goverments of the United Nations have
declared their membership to this agreement:

Greece, Danemark, Yugoslavia, the Netherlands, Tchechoslovakia, Poland,
Belgium, Abessinia, Australia, Honduras, Norway, Panama, Luxembourg,
Haiti, Newzealand, India, Venezeula, Uruguay and Paraguay.“ ( p. 17:
Now, this is hardly a communists-only club. )


The Evidence ( quantitative ) and the witnesses

„33 witnesses were heard for the accusssing side against the respective
accussed and 61 witnesses were heard for the defense including 19
statements from the accussed themselves.
Another 143 witnesses made their statement for the defense in writing on
questionaires.
The court named judges for the viewing of the evidence concerning
organisations and 101 witnesses for the defense were interviewed by
these judges and 1809 affidavits of other witnesses were brought to the
attention of the court. Furthermore 6 reports were brought forward
including a great number of further affidavits.
38000 affidavits, signed by 155000 witnesses were brought forward for
the political leaders, 136213 for the SS, 10000 for the SA, 3000 for the
military staff and 2000 for the GeStaPo.
By the court 22 witnesses for the organisations were questioned. The
documents brought as evidence before this court for the prosecution of
the respective accusseds number in the thousands. A complete
stenographic protocoll of everything said in this court was made;
furthermore the whole trial was recorded on tape.
Copies of all documents used as evidence of the court have been given to
the defense in German.
[...]
A great part of the documents brought before this court by the accusers
has been found by members of the Allied forces in German
Army-Headquarters, in goverment-buildings and in other places.
Some of these documents have been found in salt-mines, others were
buried in the earth or hidden behind blind walls or in other places that
would be, as one thought, be safe from detection. Thus the evidence of
the prosecution lies mainly with documents written by the defendants
themselves, and the authorship to these documents was only questions in
one or two cases.“ ( p. 19/20 / Now, only one or two documents were
questioned. Of several thousands. This is a quite interesting fact,
isn´t it? )

Exerpt of the Party Program of the NSDAP

„Point 3: We demand land and colonies to feed our people and to settle
it with our surplus population.

Point 4: Citizen can only be who is a Volksgenosse, Volksgenosse can
only be, who is of German blood, no matter which confession he belongs
to. No Jew can therefore be a Volksgenosse.“ ( p. 22/23 / of course
there were Jews of German blood. This part of the party program is
clearly anti-Semitic. And this program was made public BY Adolf Hitler
in Munich on February 24, 1920. The claim that NAzi-Germany wasn´t
anti-Semitic from the beginning is therefore bogus. )

About the Attack on Poland

„Oberstleutnant Schmundts protocol of this meeting shows us, that Hitler
understood the possibility that Great Britain and France would help
Poland if it was attacked. Hitler had the opinion that, if Poland
couldn´t be isolated because of that, that Germany would have to attack
Great Britain and France first, or that he would have to concentrate his
forces for a war in the west at least, to overthrow Great Britain and
France as fast as possible, or at least to breal their ability to
fight.“ ( p. 59/ which simply shows that Hitler planned a fight on this
front anyway. )

>From a conference on August 22, 1939:

Hitler: „Now, I have Poland where I want it to be. I only fear that in
the last moment some Schweinehund will try to mediate. The start for the
destruction of British dominance is there.“ ( p. 60 )

Hitler: „I will create propagandistic reasons for the attack, no matter
their believability. The victor will not be asked if he told the truth
or not.“ ( p. 61/ Now, he would have been asked, if he hadn´t been a
coward and killed himself. )


About prisoners of war

Hitler ( October 1943 ): „ How the Russians are, how the Tchechs are, I
do not care. The good blood of our kind that is in this peoples we will
take, if need be we will rob their children and raise them as Germans.“
( p. 111 )

About the Holocaust

„In February 1943 heydrich could report that Estland was free of Jews
and that in the city of Riga the number of Jews had been reduced from
29500 to 2500. All in all the commandos operating in the Baltic areas
have killed 135000 Jews in three month.“ ( p. 129 )

About the elimination of the ghetto in Warshaw:
Stroop: „It can be proven that 56065 Jews have been annihilated.
To this number one has to add the Kews killed in bombings and burnings,
but this number can not be verified.“

„Fearsome evidence for mass-killings of Jews were brought before this
court in the form of cinematographic films, showing the mass-graves
found later by the Allied forces.“ ( p. 130 )

„....all people who couldn´t work were killed in gas-chambers and their
bodies were burned. Certain concentration camps, such as Treblinka and
Auschwitz, were build mainly for this purpose. Concerning Auschitz, the
court heard the statements of Höß, who was commander of this camp from
Mai 1, 1940 to December 1, 1943. He estimated that in Auschwitz alone in
this time 2500000 human beings have been killed and 500000 more died of
illness and starvation.“ ( p. 131 )

„... it is known that till the end of 1944 the number of Hungarian Jews
alone killed in Auschwitz was 400000. Furthermore it has been declared
that 110000 Romanian Jews have been evacuated for liquidation. Adolf
Eichmann, who was ordered by Hitler to run this program, estimated that
following this policy 6.000.000 Jews have been killed, 4.000.000 thereof
in concentration camps.“ ( p. 132 )

About Art-theft

„Rosenberg is responsible for the organized looting of public and
private property in all the areas occupied by the Germans. Following
Hitler´s orders for the creation of a „Hohe Schule“ from January 1940 he
prganized and lead the special group Rosenberg, which looted museums and
liberaries, confiscicated works of art and collections and robbed
private houses. His own reports give us a picture of the scope of these
confiscations. In „Action M“ ( M = Möbel / furniture ) from December
1941, initiated by Rosenberg himself, 69619 Jewish apartments in the
West ( alone 38.000 in Paris ) were looted. 26984 train-wagons were
needed to transported the confiscated furniture to Germany. Till July
14, 1944, the special commando in the West had carried 21903 works of
art, among them famous paintings and museum-pieces, away.“ ( p. 196 )

__________________________________________________________________________

So, boys and girls. This was my infusion of some historic documentation
in the ongoing debatte about the Third Reich. My translation might be a
tad funny, but I tried to be as true to the German text lying in front
of me as possible. If somebody tries to answer to this without giving
complete bibliographic references for his sources, You will do good to
disregard his claims. If correct bibliographic references are given,
read the cited part of the text in context. And decide if the
interpretation of the revisionists holds any water. If You by any chance
have some more historical material lying around at home, bring it into
this group. If You have fathers, grnadfathers or other relatives who
have lived under the Third Reich or who belonged to the American troups
arriving at the concentration camps, write too. You all will agree, that
another Reich can not be allowed to happen. This forum is full of lies
by the people who want exacltly that. Let us fill the net with more
truth.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Klaus Günther Beck

Ole Kreiberg

unread,
Jul 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/21/97
to

Klaus Guenther Beck wrote:


>The Participants

>äOn August 8, 1945, the goverments of the United Kingdoms of Great


>Britain and Ireland, the goverment of the United States of America, the
>provisional goverment of the republic of France and the Union of the
>Socialistic Soviet-Republics have made an agreement,


Strange that it was only the loser that was tried. Stalin did in 1939
exactly the same to Poland as Hitler did. He took one half of Poland while
Hitler took the other half, and he did not return his part back after the
war. On the contrary all Poles living in "his" part were ethnic cleansed
at the end of the war, the same way the Germans were cleansed from East
Prussia Silesia etc. He conquered the Finnish province of Kerelia and had all
the Finnish people expelled. Why was this guy not among the war criminals?

>Greece, Danemark, Yugoslavia, the Netherlands, Tchechoslovakia, Poland,
>Belgium, Abessinia, Australia, Honduras, Norway, Panama, Luxembourg,

>Haiti, Newzealand, India, Venezeula, Uruguay and Paraguay.ô ( p. 17:


>Now, this is hardly a communists-only club. )

Yeah Denmark had probably supported some declaration in favour of this court.
In that case it would have been the same Danish politicians who in 1941
signed the Anti-Comintern Treaty with Germany which meant that Danes were
urged by their government headed by a social democratic prime minister
to enlist the Waffen SS and join Hitler's crusade against communism.
E.g. Vilhelm Buhl that was the prime minister from 1942 was also the prime
minister in the first government after the war.

>The Evidence ( quantitative ) and the witnesses

>Exerpt of the Party Program of the NSDAP

>A We demand land and colonies to feed our people and to settle


>it with our surplus population.

Yaeh and how much land did Stalin conqeur and colonize? Take a look on how
many Russians there live in the Baltic states today.

[See my postings of the Nuremberg Trials elsewhere.]

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