The Kosts of Kosher (was Re: Ping Waldo)
Waldo
Philip Mathews <phil...@aol.com> wrote
> >> > > > > I just heard about this Kosher tax; Would you mind posting a
few
> >links
> >> > > > > on this subject?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Thanks in advance.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I'd suggest that you perform a google search for the threads that
> >> > > > contain my previous posts on the subject.
> >> > >
> >> > > For once, I agree with Waldo.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks for your support, Steve.
> >> >
> >> > Not only will he find a volumes of links and information that
> >demonstrate
> >> > just how deeply the Jews have entrenched themselves into our foods
> >> > industries, he will also be treated to a display of the depths to
which
> >Jews
> >> > and their apologists (none of which even CLAIM to keep Kosher) are
> >willing
> >> > to stoop in their trying to justify this vampiric siphon on the life
> >blood
> >> > of Gentile America.
> >> >
> >> > (incidentally, Mr. Mock, today is Friday, and it's almost sundown)
>
> >> No, they'll just see a lot of empty bluster, such as you've treated us
to
> >above.
> >
> >Sure, they'll see plenty of empty bluster - coming from the likes of you
and
> >Filly Mathews.
>
> That describes what you have to offer Waldo. Unless you'd like to remind
us of
> your evidence for claiming:
Short memory, Philip?
Ever the circular argument. Were you a jackass on a merry-go-round in a
previous life?
Here we go again: You demand proof, I provide cites to non-biased or
pro-Jewish sources proving my points, you snip my evidence, and later claim
that I never provided the proof.
You're a fun guy (or would that be a fungi?), Philip.
> 1. That Kosher certification is a tax.
First, I didn't coin the phrase. "Tax" is perhaps not the best description
of the Kosher pyramid scheme, but it gets the point across.
Second, the monies paid by consumers to cover the costs of Kosher
Certification are a " *BURDENSOME CHARGE* obligation, duty or demand "
which, according to Webster's, qualifies as a "TAX".
Furthermore, most consumers are unaware that such a *burdensome charge* on
their foodstuffs exists, it therefore the burdensome charge qualifies as a
HIDDEN TAX.
Third, because 95%+ of all consumers can never *hope* to derive any benefit
from Kosherization, it is WORSE than a tax levied by government, from which
consumers can at least expect some minimal return in the form of services.
> 2. That companies who undertake it are coerced into doing so.
As I have repeatedly demonstrated, ingredient suppliers who's prime
customers fall prey to the Kosher Kabal must follow suit, and in turn grease
the palms of the Rabbis, or possibly face financial ruin.
> 3. That it's expensive and costs a lot of ignorant bigots such as
yourself
> lots of money.
It costs EVERYONE, Filly, including Judaeophilic fools such as yourself. (Or
perhaps you get Kosher rebate checks in the mail?) Unwitting Gentiles bear
95% of the costs. For the Kash-R-Us agencies, it's a Kash Kow, for the
Orthodox Jews, it's a WELFARE system!
> 4. That companies spend lots of money on new plants, equipment, and extra
> labor.
Ready Philip? Here we go!
(emphasis mine, my comments in [brackets] )
______________________
http://www.aristechchem.com/overview/kosher.htm
" . . .While we do not ingest acetone directly, it is used to manufacture
the CONTAINERS in which kosher food is PACKAGED, and, therefore, must meet
the Kosher Code requiring that acetone be certified. . .
" . . . In compliance with Kosher Code requirements and as part of the Good
Manufacturing Practices (GMP), tankers should be used that are SOLELY
dedicated to hauling acetone or other petrochemical products that do NOT
come in contact with animal-derived materials. If the tanker was used for
these types of materials, the tanker must be properly cleaned and "HOT
SANITIZED." The tanker and ALL its OFF-LOADING LINES and PUMPS must be
thoroughly cleaned and a wash out slip must be provided stating that the
tanker has been cleaned and sanitized before loading can proceed. The wash
out slip, along with information on the prior load, will accompany the
shipment to any kosher acetone customer. This assures the customer that all
precautions have been taken to avoid possible contamination of the product."
[NOTE: the above procedures need have NOTHING to do with "sanitation" in the
general sense. The procedures outlined are meant solely to satisfy Jewish
RELIGIOUS laws. and this is for ACETONE, an inedible solvent used in
PLASTICS production]
_____________________
[The Rabbi pictured in the next link looks strangely like DEVIL ANSE !!! ]
http://www.wvculture.org/history/hatfield/htfld001.html
_____________________
http://www.ok.org/homemaker/pesach60/kosher.html
" The OK has created a comprehensive set of instructions for our dairy
mashgichim to follow so that all pertinent issues are addressed. Among these
guidelines, the mashgiach must visit the farm prior to milking so that we
can explain our requirements. The mashgiach [Kash-R-Us Rabbi] MUST BE
PRESENT at the BEGINNING of the milking to insure that no residual
non-kosher milk is left in the milking receptacle. If milking begins PRIOR
to the mashgiach's arrival, the milk is REJECTED. If the mashgiach is
certain that proper procedures will be followed, he does not have to remain
for the entire milking, but will return periodically (yotzei v'nichnas).
" All milk stored in tanks must be SEALED by the mashgiach when he leaves
the farm. The mashgiach MUST be present AFTER milking to supervise the
loading and sealing of the tanks. The mashgiach MUST VISIT EACH farm on his
route at the *beginning, middle, and end of the milking*; ideally no more
than TWENTY MINUTES will elapse between visits.
" Recently we discovered that the milking for a popular chalav Yisrael
product was being done with insufficient Jewish oversight. The mashgiach
visited only once every EIGHT hours; additionally, he was unable to go into
one of the farms at night. We have been forced to DISCONTINUE USE of this
product in OK-certified establishments.
" Finally, the mashgiach receiving the tank truck at the dairy must REJECT
the shipment if the truck arrives without a seal. Transport trucks must
always either be sealed or be physically ACCOMPANIED by the mashgiach."
[Clearly the Rabbis fear that the driver may make an unscheduled stop,
adding non-Kosher milk to his load. those sneaky Goyim drivers!]
" Our farm mashgichim complete a detailed Supervision Report for each chalav
Yisrael production. This report is forwarded to our central office, so that
we maintain a permanent record of all OK-supervised chalav Yisrael
productions. Consumers can enjoy OK chalav Yisrael products with the
assurance that these have been made under the strictest guidelines."
__________________________________
http://www.koshertodayonline.com/kosher%20today%20archives/2001/0201/TECHNOL
OGY%20RAISES%20MANY%20QUESTIONS.htm
" Another concern that we have in the kosher industry is EQUIPMENT
CONTAMINATION. A company may produce a kosher product and the formula
presented to the certifying agency listing all of the ingredients. While the
components may be good, the question is about the equipment? Is the
equipment used by the company utilized interchangeably? In other words, do
they produce KOSHER and NON-KOSHER in the same tank? If so, how is it
KOSHERIZED from one product to the other? Is it being MONITORED? Are any of
the products marinated for OVER 24 HOURS in any given piece of equipment?
These are questions that companies have to be aware of, that will be asked
by the supervising agency. . . .
" . . . .There is also a problem with shipping bulk liquids. The tank cars.
The trucks. What did they carry before they were loaded with the kosher
product? . . . "
[There are several companies that specialize in performing the highly
specialized cleaning that the Kash-R-Us agencies demand tanker trucks
undergo before they are allowed to carry Kosher products. (see "Acetone"
above) A tanker that had just delivered a load of premium grade olive oil
would be forced to undergo a Kash-R-Us cleaning before it could haul
"Kosher" olive oil. Does this represent a significant expense, Philip?]
_______________________
http://www.yikgh.org/torch471.htm
"APPRECIATING THE MASHGIACH
" Too often we think of a mashgiach [Kash-R-Us Rabbi] in a food processing
plant as someone of mediocre talent, an individual who turned to hashgacha
because he could not do anything else.
[I think of him as thug in the employ of racketeers]
" No doubt, as in most professions, there are those who excel while others
remain mediocre mashgichim. To appreciate the task facing a mashgiach, let
us consider what supervising a TYPICAL margarine facility involves.
Margarine is comprised of oil, water, emulsifiers, and some coloring.
This blend is hydrogenated (set up for solidifying) using various catalysts
and then whipped into solids or soft spreads through a tubular spinning
refrigerator known as a votator. From the votator, the product continues to
the packing line where it is molded and packaged.
Simple. right?
Well, consider for a moment the following issues facing kosher
production. Keep in mind that many plants produce lard-based and/or
gelatin-based margarine (non-kosher) in the low-fat varieties. All margarine
plants produce a dairy variety in addition to a pareve one.
The process flow is:
1) The aqueous phase, where a brine of water and/or milk and
emulsifiers are blended.
2) Churn tanks, where oil and coloring (beta carotene) are added to
the blend.
3) Run tanks, where the entire mixture is processed in final stage
before the votator.
The piping lines between all these tanks look like a massive network of
crisscross and are often interchangeable. The mashgiach must master the
layout of the plant in order to determine that kosher/pareve is connected to
kosher/pareve.
If KASHERING [Jewish Kosher Kleaning] is done in the plant, the
mashgiach must be able to trace the lines to ensure that the PROPER
EQUIPMENT IS BEING KASHERED. He must also monitor the temperature at various
points to check that the water is at its BOILING point throughout the entire
kashering process.
Sometimes, the kosher/dairy/non-kosher LINES will meet at a manifold
where simply switching an elbow pipe causes the direction of the different
lines to instantly change. The mashgiach along with the kashrut organization
must devise a FAIL-SAFE system to prevent such mishaps."
[equipment additions / modifications]
" All cooking in factories is done in STEAM-FACILITATED KETTLES, which
means that hot water circulates through the thermal walls of these kettles
and carries on to the next kettle."
[NOTE: The steam in these kettles NEVER comes into direct contact with ANY
of the contents of the kettles. But a wall of steel separating the steam
from the product isn't good enough for the superstitious Jews, who believe
that STEAM that HEATS non-Kosher goods has somehow become MAGICALLY
CONTAMINATED]
"Water circulating AROUND a kettle takes on the STATUS of that kettle. If
NON-KOSHER WATER were to begin circulating around a KOSHER KETTLE, all the
PRODUCT in that kettle would become treif. [contaminated]
Therefore, a system must be devised to prevent the commingling of water
circulating around the kettles. This task requires an in-depth knowledge of
the plant's boiler and plumbing systems.
[Actually, this would require a plant to have TWO SEPARATE boilers and TWO
SEPARATE plumbing systems, otherwise, "contamination' would occur at the
BOILER. This would apply to ALL types of food manufacturing facilities. How
much do you suppose doubling up on boilers and plumbing systems in a large
plant would cost Philip? Now expand that figure to cover EVERY MAJOR PLANT
IN THE US that produces both Kosher and non-Kosher items, or even plants
where EVERYTHING is Kosher, but some items contain meat or milk products,
while others do not]
" All margarine processors have remelt, i.e., product that does not meet
specifications or which spilled out on the side during packing. This product
gets returned to the beginning of production to be reprocessed. The remelt
is either manually transported or "hard-piped" back to the starting area.
When the product is hard-piped, the pipes are usually TRACED [jacketed]
WITH HOT WATER to keep the product soft. Here too, the TRACER WATER must
remain SEPARATE. And, great care must be exercised to see that DAIRY,
PAREVE, or NON-KOSHER remelt is transported to the beginning of its
respective line.
All of this does not take into account the complexities of KASHERING the
KETTLES, LINES, HEAT EXCHANGERS, VOTATORS, or PACKING LINES. Nor does it
take into account monitoring ingredients and overseeing bulk deliveries of
oils, not to mention the KASHRUT STATUS of the TRUCKS or RAIL CARS used to
deliver these oils.
So, the next time you see a mashgiach for a reputable organization, give
him a well-deserved "Y'Yasher Kochacha."
[Better yet, give him a one-fingered salute. He and his buddies are adding
BILLIONS of dollars to the cost of your foodstuffs EVERY YEAR. (Yes, Philip,
I've upped my estimates to BILLIONS of dollars. See, the more I dig, the
worse it gets!) Keep in mind that the Kash-R-Us Rabbi is doing NONE of the
Kashering himself. He's just ordering company paid employees around,
enjoying his little Jewish power trip]
_______________________
http://www.koshertodayonline.com/kosher%20today%20archives/1998/0698/Kosher%
20Surimi-Faux%20Shellfish.htm
Daniel Berlin, President of the 2-1/2 year old Dyna Sea Group, is one of the
nation's major producers of kosher-certified surimi. How is this different
from the non-kosher? In every imaginable way. According to Berlin, "Every
inch of the way plant and equipment are kashered. Even the FISHING BOATS are
inspected. This is an ENORMOUS undertaking and the reason why KOSHER surimi
is MORE EXPENSIVE than the non-kosher kind."
A mashgiach [Kash-R-Us Rabbi] must be ON THE BOAT AT ALL TIMES. Every fish
that is frozen on the boat is inspected before the scales are removed, and
before it's filleted, to make sure it's a kosher fish."
The Dyna Sea Group then sends the blocks of fish paste to an APPROVED PLANT
in New Jersey where the transformation process continues. Naturally,
processing plants ALSO have rabbinical supervision. The flavorings used in
kosher surimi are a blend of natural spices and juices from other kosher
fish. The mixture is spread on an 80 foot steel belt where it's cooked and
rolled into very thin ribbons, "to simulate the muscle texture of crabmeat,"
says Berlin. After shaping, natural kosher colorings are sprayed on so it
looks like crab meat. "It isn't as though the kosher consumer wants to eat
something traif," insists Berlin. "Surimi in itself is a delicious item."
[What's next? Kosher artificial pork chops? ]
_____________________
http://www.ok.org/homemaker/shavous60/kosher.html
Kashering a Pasteurizer
When the milk arrives at the dairy from the farm, it is put into huge
storage tanks. We mentioned in our previous article that such tanks
sometimes store the milk for more than TWENTY FOUR HOURS. Therefore, they
are considered kavush, and they must be kosherized. To circumvent this
problem, the OK has pioneered a system to rotate the milk between tanks, so
that it does not stay in any one tank for twenty-four consecutive hours.
[Yet another expense to satisfy superstitious Jewish RELIGIOUS tradition]
The next piece of equipment to be used is the pasteurizer. Here the milk is
heated to approximately 160° Fahrenheit. According to halachah, a utensil in
which a liquid was cooked has to be kosherized using boiling water. Many of
our readers have kashered a pot in their kitchen, by cooking water in it
until it boils over.
However, koshering a pasteurizer is not simple, for we are presented with a
unique challenge. A pasteurizer operates as a closed system. We cannot see
inside when the pasteurizer is working, meaning that we cannot see the water
boiling. The accepted practice among kashrus agencies is to rely upon a
thermometer to measure the heat of the water.
At sea level, water boils at 212° Fahrenheit. At a higher altitude, where
the air pressure is lower, water boils at a lower temperature. Some dairies
are reluctant to bring the pasteurizer to a temperature of 212°, fearing
that this will ruin their equipment. We are pleased that the OK's capable
staff has demonstrated to these companies that we can safely kasher a
pasteurizer at boiling temperature.
Very recently we produced chalav Yisrael milk in France at a factory that
initially was reluctant to permit 212° kashering. The benefit of a GLOBAL
KASHRUS PRESENCE was soon demonstrated. Rabbi Shimon Lasker, who is the OK's
European representative, contacted OK Rabbinic Coordinator Rabbi Yitzchak
Ort of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, to obtain details for the proper, safe
kashering procedure. (Rabbi Ort's expertise in dairy kosher production has
long been acknowledged among kashrus agencies and within the dairy
industry.)
In the past we discussed this issue at length (see "How Halachah Meets
Technology," Feb. 1996). We mentioned that some kashrus agencies tend to be
lenient in kashering a pasteurizer, asserting that it is impossible to get
the pasteurizer to such a high temperature without causing damage. We fail
to understand the basis for this leniency, and we are pleased that at its
convention in May, another large organization raised its standards to insist
upon kosherizing at 212° Fahrenheit. The OK remains the leader in insisting
upon this standard, and we repeat the offer we have made in the past to
demonstrate our technique to any company or kashrus agency that wishes to
implement it.
Condensation and Drying
All milk, whether liquid or powder, is pasteurized. After pasteurization,
two steps are necessary to create powder: the milk must be condensed, and it
must be dried.
The condenser is a vessel that removes water from the milk via a vacuum, and
it is kashered with boiling water. Interestingly, water will boil in a
vacuum at less that 212° Fahrenheit, because the vacuum environment reflects
a lower level of air pressure, similar to a high-altitude environment. I
asked the great halachic authority Rabbi Zalman Shimon Dvorkin, of blessed
memory, whether halachah requires that the water in a vacuum reach 212°. He
responded that the Code of Jewish Law does not stipulate a specific
temperature; it says only that the water must boil. Therefore, we do not
require 212° in a condenser.
[There's your answer! Create a strong enough vacuum, and water will boil at
room temperature! If Jews were to LIVE in such a vacuum, all of their Kosher
troubles would be over!]
The milk then goes to be dried. There are two methods of drying the milk.
One is a spray dryer, which is a large, inverted cone. The milk is sprayed
in from the top and receives a blast of hot water. The water immediately
evaporates. In many plants these spray dryers are used for a variety of
non-kosher items along with milk. For example, we found a dairy in
Switzerland where NON-KOSHER items were being dried on the same equipment
used for drying milk. Of course this poses a problem for chalav Yisrael
production, but it poses the same problem even for people who use non-chalav
Yisrael milk powder.
[Yes, but it is the Gentile consumer who picks up the tab for "solving"
Kosher problems]
Spray dryers may be small, or they may be as tall as a six-story building;
the latter are particularly difficult to kosherize. [And expensive, wouldn't
you imagine?] Nonetheless, we thoroughly kasher these with boiling water. At
some large plants, companies run simultaneous productions of chalav Yisrael
and non-chalav Yisrael. In a recent production, we arranged to separate
these runs, in order to avoid a mix-up. Before the chalav Yisrael run had
ended, the company started to run chalav stam. WE REJECTED THE ENTIRE
ONE-TON PRODUCTION.
(Yes, I said BILLION$)
Another way to dry the milk is by using a roller dryer. The milk is sprayed
onto a heated roller, which then dries the milk. The milk dried on the
roller obtains a caramelized taste, a quality that chocolate producers
prefer.
A roller dryer is heated using either regular water or water that was
removed from milk in the condenser. While we generally assume that water is
kosher, IF the water has been used to HEAT NON-kosher ingredients, it may be
rendered NOT KOSHER. We therefore must ascertain that KOSHER WATER is being
used to HEAT the roller dryer. Condensate - water that was removed from
non-chalav Yisrael milk by a condenser - also should not be used to heat the
roller dryer.
[Again, doubling-up on boilers and plumbing systems. Easily HUNDREDS OF
THOUSANDS in KOSHER expense of one large plant.]
Another matter of concern is the percent of milk powder produced from the
chalav Yisrael milk trucked in from the farm. Only six to ten percent of
milk powder can be obtained from milk. For example, 100 gallons of milk can
be condensed and dried to yield one-tenth to one-seventeenth that volume of
milk powder (the former figure for whole milk, the latter for skim milk).
Therefore, the supervising rabbi has to verify exactly how much milk was
obtained from the farms. If the amount of milk powder produced exceeds this
ratio, it would mean that the dairy has slipped in chalav stam, and the
entire production would be disallowed for chalav Yisrael.
[Those sneaky Goys. Gotta watch 'em!]
As we can see, chalav Yisrael production is no simple matter. The OK is
blessed with a number of experts in all phases of the process, and consumers
can purchase OK-certified chalav Yisrael products with confidence that they
were made with complete fidelity to the laws of kashrus.
____________________
http://www.mk.ca/newsletter9/vol1iss9.html
" Given the difficulty in Kashering chocolate plants, it is noteworthy that
at least one company has indeed succeeded in achieving a Kashering with
water to produce a truly Mehadrin chocolate. A famous Swiss chocolate
company has agreed to make specially supervised productions of Passover
Cholov Yisroel chocolate. Until this production, no Swiss chocolate company
had ever agreed to allow the Kashering of its equipment with water. For this
production, all equipment was Kashered with a flame or with hot water, and
EQUIPMENT THAT PROVED TO BE DIFFICULT TO KASHER WAS REPLACED WITH EQUIPMENT
DEDICATED TO KOSHER PRODUCTION. "
______________________
[KASH-R-US AGENCY TIGHTENS IT'S GRIP]
http://www.cjnews.com/pastissues/00/oct19-00/front4.asp
Vaad sets tougher kashruth rules
By JANICE ARNOLD
Special to The CJN
MONTREAL - The Vaad Ha'ir, the main kashrut supervisory agency in Montreal,
has for the first time published written rules that must be followed in
order to have the Vaad's MK stamp of approval.
The rules apply to all caterers, rental companies, restaurants, hotels,
synagogues, community organizations and even people ENTERTAINING IN THEIR
OWN HOMES. Some of the rules are new and point to significantly more
stringent control and inspection.
Vaad executive director Rabbi Saul Emanuel said the impetus behind issuing
The Vaad's Manual 2000-2001 was to establish standards that are applied
equally at every phase of food handling, thereby protecting the consumer.
"I believe we are one of the first kashrut organizations in the world to put
our policies in writing," said Rabbi Emanuel, who, before coming to Montreal
two years ago, headed the Union of Orthodox Synagogues' kashrut division in
Johannesburg, South Africa for 10 years.
Concurrently, the Vaad is SHAKING UP THE SYSTEM OF PAYMENT of mashgichim.
[Kash-R-Us Rabbis]
Within the next few months, ALL will be paid directly by the VAAD, rather
than by the businesses where they supervise kashrut. Until now, all
mashgichim were authorized by the Vaad, but not necessarily employed by it.
At this point, the Vaad pays 70 to 80 mashgichim, and expects to employ
about 100 by the end of the year, said Rabbi Emanuel. This is imperative, he
said, if their first responsibility is to uphold Vaad policy.
The manual makes clear the caterer must DEFER to the mashgiach on any
kashrut question. ALL RENTAL COMPANIES must now also have a FULL-TIME
mashgiach.
[Nothing like flexing your muscles to increase your bottom line, eh?]
A major change outlined in the manual is the requirement that all caterers
and all synagogues, certified by the Vaad, submit a form by the 7th of each
month detailing events where food will be served for the next 30 days.
This is intended to ensure that the Vaad has enough time to assign a
mashgiach.
"Late requests will only be considered in the case of an emergency," it is
stated.
The 22 MK-certified caterers can only accept functions at the APPROVED
[paying] synagogues and HOTELS/RECEPTION HALLS listed in the manual. A few
establishments that do not have *full-time kosher kitchens* have been
included, but Rabbi Emanuel said no new places like that will be added.
Similarly, listed shuls may only use *Vaad-approved* [paying] caterers.
Catering at all other venues, including private homes, will require a
case-by-case evaluation by the Vaad and will not necessarily be approved.
The fact that kosher events have been held in the past does not give
non-kosher venues any extra advantage in getting approved.
"There are no acquired rights," he said.
**New in the case of venues not on the list, which includes kosher private
homes, is the prohibition of kashering of appliances and other equipment for
that event. Caterers will have to bring all equipment they need for food
preparation. Counters and sinks, however, may be kashered, Rabbi Emanuel
said.**
"A home may, in fact, be kosher, but how can we assure the consumer of
this?"
A mashgiach must be on site the entire time at functions in private homes
whenever an MK-certified caterer's staff is working. This is not required
when presealed take-out food is served and no catering staff sets up at the
home.
Synagogues not on the list, such as Temple Emanu-El-Beth Sholom and the
Reconstructionist Synagogue, will not be able to hire an MK-certified
caterer under any circumstances, Rabbi Emanuel said.
Preparations for functions that take place on Saturday night can only begin
one hour after Shabbat. No deliveries, preparation or setup may take place
on Shabbat, even if staff are non-Jewish.
All food and rentals for a Shabbat affair must be totally cooked and
delivered no later than noon the preceding Friday between Sukkot and
Passover, and 2 p.m. the rest of the year. No food may be cooked in the shul
for another or outside function. (This may effect, for example, Meals on
Wheels programs.)
Another feature is the requirement that at every function, in addition to
the traditional small card on the tables, a poster be displayed stating it
is Vaad-supervised, giving the date, place and mashgiach's name.
At the *approved hotels and synagogues*, kosher equipment and supplies have
to be LOCKED and accessible ONLY to the mashgiach.
[Fears of "Kosher Terrorism"?]
The shipping of supplies to the site is also coming under greater control.
All items must be sealed, stamped, dated and signed by the mashgiach, as do
any returned items.
Some previously familiar fruits and vegetables are going to disappear from
Vaad-supervised functions due to the difficulty in checking them for
infestation. These include artichoke hearts, whole asparagus, blackberries,
broccoli florets, fresh dill, all lettuce except iceberg and Boston, fresh
parsley, raspberries, and fresh spinach.
In addition, canned vegetables must now have a recognized hechsher, whereas
in the past this was not the case.
Kosher restaurants are being instructed that IF A BABY NEEDS A MILK BOTTLE,
THE FEEDING MUST TAKE PLACE IN A DESIGNATED AREA. [Traif Babies?] Employees
are NOT permitted to bring any PRIVATE food into the restaurant.
Rabbi Emanuel acknowledges that the more rigorous enforcement will put
greater demand on the time of the mashgichim and there may be busy times of
the year when it will be difficult to serve everyone.
There is a general shortage of mashgichim and the Vaad is doing its best to
recruit more, or train new ones, he said.
[With all the extra money they'll be raking in, they should be able to
afford it]
Rabbi Emanuel anticipates that the Vaad's overall staff will *double* in the
near future. The Vaad will shortly move from rented offices to its *own
building* at the corner of Décarie Boulevard and Vézina Street.
[Their own building now. How nice!]
The manual is part of the Vaad's attempt to be more open and accountable to
the consumer, he indicated.
"We're not hear to say no, no, no; we believe we must ensure the consumer
the highest standard... The consumer has the right to know what is going
on."
[The above demonstrates that the Kash-R-Us agencies are more than willing to
muscle Jews for Kash as well]
________________________
http://www.ok.org/homemaker/shvouot98/kashrus.html
What are some of the kashrus issues encountered in cheese production? A
concern can arise with traditional Muenster, Romano, Parmesan, and
Mozzarella cheeses, since they are put in brine. If the brine tanks were
previously used for not kosher cheese, they must be kashered. However, this
kashering is very difficult, and the CHEESE INDUSTRY HAS ACQUIRED *NEW*
TANKS THAT ARE USED EXCLUSIVELY FOR KOSHER CHEESE.
Another issue concerns American cheese, which is made by cooking Cheddar and
introducing additional ingredients. The cooker has to be kashered, and
therefore must SIT IDLE FOR 24 HOURS, so that it becomes aino ben yomo.
Therefore, kosher American cheese is produced on Mondays, since the only
time when companies are not using the cooker is over the weekend.
Stirring out the curds
and whey to seperate them.
Also, colors added to cheese need supervision for Pesach. These may have
been produced on equipment also used for products that contain soy oil,
which is not acceptable for Pesach.
Furthermore, the KNIVES that cut the cheese blocks to the desired size need
to be kashered before a kosher run. This is achieved by running a stone on
them; the stone simultaneously kashers and sharpens the knives. It is also
necessary to kasher the pasteurizers, since these were used for non-chalav
Yisrael milk. This kashering must be done at 212°. Although there are some
parties who have denied the feasibility of 212° kashering of pasteurizers,
leading supervision agencies around the world have mastered this proper
kashering method. The OK Laboratories remains prepared to demonstrate our
method of 212° kashering to anyone who seeks the knowledge. (See "How
Halachah Meets Technology," The Jewish Homemaker, February 1996, for a
fuller treatment of this subject.)
Finally, the agitation involved in the process of making cheese or whey may
lead to the presence of foam. A defoamer is added to settle the foam. Care
must be taken to see that the DEFOAMER IS KOSHER. If a Pesach run is being
done, the mashgiach must make sure that the defoamer is not chametz.
Ascertaining that the INGREDIENTS are kosher and that the EQUIPMENT is
properly kosherized are only PART of the difficulty in making kosher cheese.
There is an entirely separate halachic issue, the matter of gevinas akum
(**cheese produced by a non-Jew**). Jewish law mandates that even if all the
ingredients in cheese are kosher, the cheese production must be OVERSEEN (or
actively participated in) by a Jew.
The Shulchan Aruch states: "The Sages prohibited cheeses of non-Jews
because they are ma'amid (coagulate) them in the skin of the stomach of
their slaughtered animals, which are not kosher. And even if they are
ma'amid it in grasses, it is prohibited." The Rema comments: "That is the
custom, and one cannot abrogate it, except in a place where they have
traditionally permitted it. However, if a Jew oversees the cheese-making and
the milking, it is permitted, and that is the custom in all our countries."
[More Job Security for Jews]
This stringency is greater than the one of chalav Yisrael. While there are
leading rabbis who have ruled that one may be lenient regarding chalav
Yisrael if there is certainty that the milk comes from a kosher animal, the
same is not true with cheese. Even if we know absolutely that the cheese is
made of only kosher ingredients, a Jew *must supervise the production*, else
the cheese is PROHIBITED.
The OK team of rabbis has decades of collective experience in all facets of
kosher cheese supervision. Rabbis Avrohom Juravel, Leizer Teitelbaum, and
Dovid Steigman, under the guidance of Kashrus Administrator Rabbi Don Yoel
Levy, have forged a reputation for expertise in dairy supervision.
**As we celebrate Shavuos, we can look proudly back on our traditions,
dating to mattan Torah, the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai. The laws of
kashrus have been an anchor of Jewish life for thousands of years; more
today than ever, in the face of intermarriage, assimilation, and other
weighty challenges to the Jewish community, we reaffirm our commitment to
observe these laws.**
[IOW, the Kosher Tradition is important because it helps to keep Jews
viewing themselves as separate, distinct and superior to the Goyim cattle]
_______________________
http://www.mk.ca/newsletter15/vol2iss4.html
" The Bais Din of the Agudas Yisroel in Yerushalayim also ruled that such
material would be considered Pareve. The only practical problem with the
product is that its production is tedious and therefore MORE COSTLY than
conventional gelatin. First, only part of the production in a Kosher
slaughterhouse is indeed Kosher - some animals are Treifa (having damaged
internal organs) and others are not slaughtered properly (Neveila), both of
which are not Kosher. As such, hides from Glatt Kosher animals must be
monitored and segregated for gelatin production. Second, the hides must be
soaked and salted ("Kashered") to remove blood, just as all Kosher meat is
processed. Third, the hides used in conventional gelatin production are
generally the trimmings and other by-products of the leather industry, which
can be purchased at heavy discounts; Kosher hides are prime material and
must be purchased at full price. Fourth, the EQUIPMENT used to produce
Kosher gelatin must be *completely Kashered* from their normal non-Kosher
production, A TIME-CONSUMING AND EXPENSIVE PROCESS. In addition, the entire
process must be SUPERVISED. Nevertheless, Kolatin is used to make true
gelatin deserts and real marshmallows, both of which are available with a
reliable Kosher certification under the Elyon label."
________________________
http://www.kosherconsumer.org/boilers.htm
Boilers In Kosher Production
In order to process/ cook food you need heat. In the commercial & industrial
food processing, steam & hot water are used extensively. We will first
explain the basics of the "Steam" boiler operating system, & then the
concerns to the kosher consumer afterwards. The source used for steam and
hot water is a "boiler", heated by different fuels. A "Boiler" is a CLOSED
VESSEL containing water. The water in a steam boiler is pressurized and
turned into steam when heat is added. The steam is then directed to
different locations for use in processing food or food ingredients. The
water that is lost in the steam cycle must be replaced. It takes one pound
of water to produce one pound of steam. The boiler does different functions,
it holds the water, transfers heat to the water to make steam, and collects
the steam that is produced. The fire heats the water to about 212F and the
water begins to boil and turns to steam. A pipe is put on top of the lid of
the container (boiler) so the steam flows up through the pipe and leads the
steam to where it is needed.
The most efficient way to operate a boiler is to minimize the cost of
producing the steam, or increasing the amount of steam while using the same
amount of fuel. One way is by increasing the heating surface of the boiler,
so that more heat is transferred to the water to produce steam. Some boilers
use a large heating surface, it would be like laying the boiler on its side
(the scotch marine type). Some boilers will use "fire tubes" (pipes), where
the water passes through the pipes and the heat is on the outside. Others
will have the heat passing through the pipes and the water on the outside of
the pipes. The container, heat & water are still present, the only
difference is that more water is put next to the heated metal.
Water in the boiler is heated and turns to steam. The steam leaves the
boiler by a pipe or pipes called the "Main", where it enters the "Header".
From the header the steam enters branch lines, & is carried into risers &
then to the steam heating equipment, usually a DOUBLE WALLED VESSEL. **The
food /ingredient is in the equipment on one side of the wall & the steam is
on the other side of the wall of the equipment.**
[No cross-contamination occurs!]
At this point the steam in the heating unit cools and turns to water called
"condensate". The condensate is separated from the heating equipment by a
"steam-trap" that allows condensate (water), but not steam, to pass through.
The condensate goes into a "condensate-return-line", to a vacuum tank. A
vacuum pump creates a vacuum that helps draw the water out of the condensate
return line & in to the vacuum tank. The vacuum pump returns the water
condensate to the boiler through the feed-water line. Once it has returned
to the boiler, the water/ condensate again is turned into steam and the
process repeats itself. Usually some additional (pre-heated) city water will
also be required, as not all of the steam can be recaptured & returned as
condensate.
Steam is [sometimes] used to heat product by direct injection of live steam
directly into the product. Our discussion is on low-pressure steam boilers,
up to 15 psi =(pounds per square inch). There is also the cast iron
sectional boiler. A steam boiler is not filled with water to the top, so to
leave room for the steam and for expansion. As the steam pressure increase
there is a corresponding increase in the steam temperature. As an example
steam at 10 psi is 240F, steam at 15 psi is 250F. There will be a number of
parts on a boiler to distinguish the steam boiler from the water boiler. We
will list some of them; on the steam boiler: there will be a sight glass
(attached to a water column) on the boiler to see the level of the water in
the boiler. A pressure gauge 0-30 psi, connected to the highest part of the
steam side of the boiler via a siphon (either a U-tube or a pigtail siphon).
A safety valve (15 psi maximum). A low water cut-off, if the water in the
boiler drops too low & there isn't sufficient make-up water from the
condensate & or fresh water the boiler will shut down. A pressure control
will be installed to control the boiler pressure. A number of blow-down
valves to clear out the dirt & sludge from the boiler parts & from the water
column. Fresh water that is added to the boiler contains minerals,
impurities etc. which will settle on the tubes in the boiler and cause
deterioration of the boiler so chemicals are usually added to the boiler
overcome these and other problems. Most of the chemicals do not travel with
the live steam but remain in the boiler or condensate. There will be
additional fittings near the heating unit. Some of them are, a strainer, a
trap, a condensate return line, a pump & a condensate holding tank.
Some of the kosher concerns: The steam/condensate that comes in contact with
the WALL of the vessel heating the food product that is on the OTHER SIDE OF
THE WALL will [magically] absorb the taste of the product in the kettle.
[PATENT HORSESHIT] If the product is a non-kosher product it will render the
steam/condensate non-kosher as it has absorbed the non-kosher taste. [Jewish
superstition] If the product is meat or dairy the steam/condensate will
absorb the taste and become either meat or dairy. The steam condensate
returns to the boiler and is reused, BUT WE CAN ONLY USE IT FOR THE SAME
TYPE OF PRODUCT MEAT/DAIRY/NON-KOSHER. To complicate the matter we may have
MANY DIFFERENT KETTLES receiving their steam from the SAME SOURCE. The
question remains how can we cook at the same time utilizing the same steam
heat source? Solutions?
[GET THIS]
One possibility is to DRAIN the water from the BOILER, the CONDENSATE TANK
and ALL of the LINES. We would then LEAVE IT EMPTY for 24 HOURS before
filling up with fresh clean water. We would of course kosherize if need be.
It would STILL not solve the problem of using the boiler for INCOMPATIBLE
(=meat & dairy, non-kosher) product at the same time. We can DISCONNECT the
CONDENSATE RETURN LINE from the non-compatible product, [ Increasing water
usage and energy costs] so the condensate will not return to the boiler.
Some kosher certifiers will NOT use steam to heat incompatible product EVEN
when the condensate does NOT return to the boiler. In certain cases with
some modifications they may allow the use.
[Double the boilers and plumbing]
The goal is to introduce some way to make the boiler water / condensate
unpalatable to humans (an unpleasant/or bitter taste). When the condensate
water is unpalatable to humans, the condensate does not become meaty/dairy
or non-kosher.
[According to the Jewish theory, if the steam absorbs the "taste" of the
product, why wouldn't the PRODUCT absorb the "taste" of the STEAM? If the
STEAM is unpalatable, the PRODUCT would become unpalatable. This is
superstitious nonsense - very EXPENSIVE superstitious nonsense!]
We can introduce to the boiler chemicals that will achieve that goal. Most
chemicals that are added to the boiler water do not travel with the steam.
As the water turns to steam the chemicals and the impurities remain in the
boiler water. Some of it eventually turn to sludge which has to be cleaned
out. We need a chemical or product that will **render the water unpalatable
to humans and will also travel with the steam.** There are a number of
chemicals available, 2 of the chemicals that are commonly used are
**pine-oil & Bitrex.** (Bitrex is the most bitter substance known). The
exact amount of chemical to put in would depend on a number of factors.
[Each based on superstition and nonsense}
In the event that the manufacturing process uses live injected steam in some
of their products we can not use the above solution. [My the powers of
deductive reasoning] In the event that we can not introduce to the
condensate water a chemical to make it unpalatable, and we can only
introduce a chemical that remains in the boiler it will have to be unfit for
even a DOG'S consumption, which is a much higher concentration than for
humans. [Depends on the dog - and the human] Some kosher certifiers have
introduced certain other chemicals to alleviate the above concerns, while
other certifiers do not agree to accept those chemicals as satisfying the
requirements. We can encounter the same problems in non-steam systems also.
The circulating hot water system and the heat exchanger type system. Some of
these are used in chocolate manufacturing systems. Many of the chocolate
manufacturers do dark chocolate and milk chocolate as well. The same water
used for heating the chocolate product may go from a dark chocolate conch or
holding tank to one holding a milk chocolate, and vice versa.
Kosher Alert: When a kosher certifier removes its kosher supervision from an
establishment/product, & publicizes a kosher alert-it is (sadly) all too
common for another kosher certifier to thereafter certify the
establishment/product. It would be incumbent upon the kosher consumer to
check with the first certifier as to the reason that the kosher
certification was removed. If a satisfactory response is received that there
are legitimate kosher concerns then the establishment/product should of
course not be patronized.
There are a number of items that the Code of Jewish Law requires them to be
purchased with seals on them if purchasing from a non-religious Jew, even if
the store is owned by a Jewish person. Those items are fish, meat, dairy,
cheese & wine products. We have seen locally that the kosher consumers &
establishments are not fully cognizant of these requirements.
____________________________
http://www.chelm.org/jewish/kashrut/l3.kashering.html
Lesson III - Kashering
If a mistake is made it does not necessarily render the utensil unkosher.
And even if it does render the utensil unkosher, you do not have to throw it
out. Most kitchen equipment can be rekashered.
Items can be unkashered by using unkosher food in them (like forbidden meat)
or by accidentally using a milchig utensil for fleishig food (or vice
versa). The food and the utensil becomes immediately unkashered if either
the food or the utensil is hot. The food and utensil becomes unkashered
after 24 hours if both the food and utensil are cold. Traditionally hot
spices and pungent vinegar (and I guess jalapenos) are consider always hot
in this respect. There is a rule called batel beshishim that states that
accidental mixing of up one sixtieth part is considered too small to
unkasher food or utensils (This is accidental, intentional mixing renders
unkosher).
There are two traditional ways of kasher ing. By boiling or by flaming. The
first required immersing the vessel in boiling water; the second by heating.
Utensils used for liquids are kashered by boiling, those use for dry foods
are kashered by flaming. There is a third traditional way of kashering
called PLANTING. This is done by placing the utensil in the ground [burying
it] for a prescribed amount of time. This method is non-halachic and hould
not be used. Since this is a traditional practice of some roups, those
groups do consider this a valid method of kashering.
[How to get rid of warts: Take a dead pure-black cat to a crossroads at
midnight, then, turn in a circle to the left three times and, swinging the
cat by its tail, chant . . . . .]
To kasher by boiling the following steps are used:
The item to be kashered must first be thoroughly cleaned and scoured.
The item (and the vessel it is to be immersed) must not be used for 24
hours.
Boil water in the immersion vessel til it roils.
Totally immerse the vessel in the immersion vessel. The vessel must not
touch the sides on the immersion vessel. Let go of the vessel (so water can
get to where you are holding it).
If the vessel to be kashered (like a very large pot) does not fit in another
other vessel, boil water in it til it roils so water spills over it sides.
It is traditional to put an object heated to over 212 F (traditionally a
rock) to cause to water to overflow without cooling the water.
Remove the vessel and rinse in cold water.
The pot used for kashering should then be rekashered (step 5)
Items that are to be flamed are kashered similarly, only are heated til red
hot.
Items of metal, enamel, wood, teflon, and plastic can be kashered. Items
with loose handles and deep crevices must be carefully cleaned before
kashering.
Glass is considered non-absorbing, and thus does not have to be kashered.
This means it would be all right to use glass plates for milchig and
fleishig foods, but this is frowned upon. Pyrex (and other cooking glass) is
a special category. The Orthodox believe that glass might absorb at high
temperature and do not use it for both. The CJLS has (with the help of that
disinterested third party Corning Glass) determined that pyrex does not
absorb, and can be used for both. Rabbi Sack's (and also my) policy is not
to use pyrex for both.
China, porcelain, pottery, and earthenware can not be kashered. There is an
exception (which I mention with great trepidation). China of great personal
worth (Grandma's for example) can be set for one year and be considered
kosher. You MUST consult a rabbi before doing this.
Metal sinks can be kashered by scouring and then pouring boiling water in
them. Some say the sink should be filled with boiling water. In either case,
care must be taken to make sure the whole sink is affected. Make sure the
water is still boiling as it hits all parts of the sink.
Formica and metal counters are kashered by first scrubbing, then, after a 24
hour wait, pouring water on them. Wood counters are first scrapped or
sanded.
Ovens are kashered by scouring clean and then leaving at their highest
temperature for over 30 minutes. Use of a blow torch are only for fanatics.
Ranges are first scoured, then have their burners turned on till they glow
or till a piece of paper will singe if touched to the burner. Selfcleaning
ovens can naturally kasher themselves. There is a question whether
continual-cleaning ovens do.
Small appliance should have the parts that might contact the food kashered
by boiling. The body or motor of the appliance should be carefully cleaned.
Special attention should be paid to the crevices.
________________________
http://www.koshertodayonline.com/kosher%20today%20archives/1998/0298/Prepara
tions%20for%20Passover%20A%20Military%20Operation%20In%20Many%20Institutions
.htm
Preparations for Passover A Military Operation In Many Institutions
The process of preparing plants and institutional kitchens for Passover
requires a special expertise which has become even more complex in our
technologically advanced society. For plants which do special Passover runs,
the process generally means shutting down the production line and cleaning
the machinery to remove all traces of chametz (leavened bread). Corn oil,
for example, must be replaced with cottonseed oil, corn syrup with sugar and
so forth. Grain vinegars are replaced with petroleum distillates. All vats
and tubing must be thoroughly cleaned to remove all chametz ingredients
before the rabbis will permit the special run which will earn it the KP
label or "Kosher for Passover" designation.
In resorts around the world preparing for their special holiday programs,
kitchens will be literally taken apart, piece by piece, and every nook and
cranny will be searched for any remnants of the forbidden chametz prohibited
by Jewish law on Passover. This year Jews will be celebrating Passover in
resorts in Hawaii, British Columbia, Italy, Miami, Orlando, the Pocono
Mountains, the Catskills, Deep Creek Lake, Maryland, Spain, Aruba, Ft.
Lauderdale, Las Vegas, San Diego, Virginia, Acapulco, Cancun, Hungary,
Newport, R.I. and, of course, all over Israel.
Food service facilities such as hospitals, nursing homes, and restaurants
will also be undergoing rigorous cleaning. Some of these processes are:
Ovens may require using blowtorches to produce enough heat to vaporize any
leavened remains, and sinks and adjacent surfaces will also be kosherized
for Passover. Attention will also be given to dishwashers, warming cabinets,
counter tops, broilers, steam kettles, deep fryers, silverware, glasses,
chafing dishes, and serving trays. Wooden, ceramic and plastic items cannot
be kosherized for Passover. Industrial producers may have to close down
production for several days to properly clean and kosherize the facilities
for Passover production.
The kosherizing process is performed under the watchful eye of a rabbi
especially trained to oversee this procedure. The facility must be
meticulously cleaned before koshering actually commences. Once completed,
all shelves, ovens, pantries, and countertops are covered with several
layers of heavy duty aluminum foil.
Rabbis must also pay attention to all ingredients used in the preparation of
Passover foods. In some places this begins several months before the
production is scheduled. Orders must be placed early and every element of
food preparation and service must be thoroughly reviewed. The rabbi has to
make sure that no chametz is brought in once the kashering is completed. (If
any chametz comes in contact with a kosherized item, the item may need to be
kosherized a second time). He will also make sure that employees do not eat
their meals or snacks anywhere near the koshered area.
When involved in the koshering of a facility for Passover, one can not help
but feel the pressure of paying attention to all of the myriad details. One
must literally have a thousand eyes to prevent anything from going wrong. In
many places, the koshering process is such a major undertaking that it is
every bit like a military operation. When the consumer sits down to
participate in the Passover seder, he does not have any idea of how intense
the kosherizing process was and how much effort went into preparing foods
that are certified "Kosher For Passover." But then again, children might not
appreciate what mother went through to prepare the house for the eight day
holiday.
________________________________
http://www.ok.org/homemaker/chanukah99/kosher.html
Correction
What happens when we find a problem? Our primary goal is to protect the
buying public. When a mistake is made, whether the error is the fault of the
O.K. or of the food company, we immediately take all necessary steps to
alert those who may be affected. In the case of a product that product is
available at the retail level, we notify the public that a mistake has been
made. Notification generally is accomplished by advertisement in one or more
popular Jewish newspapers. We also post such alerts on our website, at
"Kosher Alerts." Other kosher-oriented sites, such as kashrut.com, pick up
these alerts. We also arrange for notices to be posted in synagogues.
Simultaneously we are in contact with the food company to make arrangements
for withdrawal of the offending item from the market. Often the integrity of
a company can be measured by its reaction to a situation of this nature.
Recently a consumer E-mailed us concerning a Kraft product. The consumer had
been in the hospital and was served Jell-O Strawberry Gelatin that carried
an O.K. symbol on the label and yet contained animal gelatin.
[Oh my GOD! Call 9-1-1 !!!]
Aware that no major kashrus agency in the U.S. accepts gelatin from a
non-kosher source in its products, the consumer sensed that the product was
mislabeled.
Kraft products have been O.K.-certified for many years, and the relationship
between our two companies is excellent. Upon receiving the package from the
consumer, we immediately went to work with Kraft to recall the product. I am
pleased to report that we received full-fledged cooperation from Kraft.
At the time this incident unfolded, I was at home recuperating from an
illness. Working via phone and E-mail, we set up a conference call with top
Kraft personnel. Dana Coleman, who is Kraft's Quality Assurance Manager, was
of invaluable assistance as we ironed out a solution.
On Wednesday, Sept. 14, Kraft issued an alert to all personnel dealing with
foodservice items. (Foodservice refers to items sold to hospitals, used on
airlines, and other such markets rather than retail stores.) The memo
stated: "A Quality Defect Alert has been issued for foodservice 3.5 oz.
Jell-O Strawberry Gelatin. Due to a printing error, the foil lid contains
the 'Circle K Pareve' kosher symbol . . . Foodservice Distributors should be
instructed to dispose of the product . . . Your immediate action is required
to complete the following actions by 1:30 p.m., C.D.T., Friday, September
17."
By the target date, the product was completely withdrawn from the market. In
the space of four days, the problem had been solved. This alacrity
demonstrates Kraft's commitment to its kosher program and to the kosher
consumer, and I am happy to acknowledge Kraft's willingness to move
mountains in this regard.
[I'll bet THAT was cheap]
The Jell-O case is a perfect example of where you, the consumer, plays a
role in maintaining kashrus standards. You are an important line of defense,
and we ask again that you report any kashrus concerns to us.
We pray that the time will come, speedily and in our days, when Mashiach
will arrive and we will eat, with perfect confidence in its kashrus, from
the Leviathan fish.
________________________
> These are but a few of the claims you've made about Kosher certification -
> claims you've been shown to be unable to support.
Your pathetic denial doesn't make it so, Filly.
Waldo: Fire is hot.
Philip: No it isn't.
Waldo: Yes it is. Put your grubby little hand in the flame and see for
yourself.
Philip: OOOooowww!!!!!!!!! . . . . . . No it isn't. Prove it.
Your a stubborn little lying twit, Philip. What is it about your
Judaeophilia that has you so mesmerized?
> >They'll also notice a pattern: I dig up facts, statistics, and evidence
> >regarding the Kosher Kabal
>
> Where are the facts that it's a Kabal?
Look up the definition of Kabal (Cabal) Filly. (You're such a baby. Do I
have to do EVERYTHING for you? Did you finish your strained peas?)
> > and you and Philly SNIP most of these facts,
>
> Now you're confusing snipping your unsupported conjectures as snipping
facts.
If it befuddles you, you snip it, Filly. (and befuddling *you* is no great
feat)
> You've been challenged again to produce the facts supporting your claims.
Care
> to try!
>
> and
> >attempt to raise red herrings to hide your evasions.
>
> The red herrings were yours, in supposed support of your lies. They were
> exposed as such.
Bring on the Bolshevik, Filly.
> >They'll also notice that you, Filly and the other Jewish apologists NEVER
> >provide cites of your own,
>
> All we did was point out that you had no evidence for your claims. That
really
> pissed you off, didn't it Waldo!
No. I am well acquainted with the tactics of your ilk, Philip. Your ploys of
squeal, squirm, dodge, subterfuge and lies are as sure as death and taxes -
and every bit as welcome.
> >or anything else that would support your position
> >(excepting 25 year-old newspaper clippings that were disinformation
> >propaganda on the day they were written).
>
> Ah, so there was evidence presented,
This could hardly be considered "evidence".
> contradicting what you just said above. I
> guess that makes you a liar,
No, that makes you pathetically desperate. I almost pity you, Philip . . .
almost.
> even though you try to dismiss it because you say
> it's too old, and that's its disinformation, without being able to show
why its
> disinformation.
Ok, Philip. If you want us to give this 25 year-old propaganda piece serious
consideration, get supporting documentation. Find out the figures that the
companies were supposedly using to support their purported "facts". Make us
believe that they were referring to the actual costs incurred by the
companies with regard to the Kasherization process, rather than referring to
the costs for the additional *ink* used to print the little Kash-R-Us mark
on the labels.
But you won't do it.
Why? Because "Philip Mathews a great aversion to intellectual labor".
> Is this the powerful, fact based argumentation that is supposed
> to win converts to your racist, ignorant beliefs, or do you realize only
fellow
> fools and haters like Cummins will find it convincing?
You're a buffoon, Philip. What's your stake in this? Are you a Jew in
denial, or a McVay-esque Shabbos Goy? Is your Sugar-Daddy a Jew, Philip?
> >The best you can come up with is
> >"Well, all these companies are submitting themselves to Kosher
> >Certification, so it MUST be making them money, otherwise they wouldn't
do
> >it".
>
> We can ask reasonable people to judge whether hundreds of companies seek
Kosher
> certification for thousands of products because it makes sense for their
> companies or because of some Jewish plot to coerce them into it.
On what data do these companies base their decisions to "go Kosher"??? Who
supp*LIES* them with this data? Can Jews, who have a vested interest on
multiple levels be trusted as unbiased sources of data on the Kosher Market
and Kosher Consumers?
NO.
Who do you suppose foots the bill for the "studies" of the Kosher Konsumer
Market?
What has the manufacturer of an item which has general appeal to the broader
consumer market to gain from obtaining Kosher Certification? The slight
possibility of gaining a small portion of some 900,000 Orthodox Jews?
It's a matter of costs vs. benefits. I have shown (and proven with
references) that such a manufacturer would have to realize retail sales
circa $15 -$20 from customers who would buy his product SOLELY because of
its Kosher Certification to justify *every dollar* spent to satisfy the
demands of such certification.
These dollars CAN"T come from increased sales, but must come from increased
PROFITS.
Certainly such expenditures can be justified when dealing with highly
specialized (Jewish) products on a small scale, but you have yet to provide
a SINGLE real life example of Kosher Kosts to a large manufacturer targeting
the broader market being justified.
> The answer is
> pretty obvious even before we point out that you have no evidence to
support
> your charges that it is expensive, an overall loss in profits to the
companies
> who do so, or a scam.
As I said earlier, the fact that you deny that fire is *hot* does not make
cold.
> >Using your logic, we could say "Millions upon millions of people smoke
> >cigarettes. So cigarettes MUST be good for you, otherwise they would't do
> >it".
>
> LOL!
>
> Waldo now claims Kosher certification is a physical addiction.
No. In the case of ingredient suppliers, it is a financial addiction . . .
much in the same way that you suck-up to your mother-in-law: You may despise
her, but without her, you'd starve.
> >> And they'll also note that you have slithered away from every branch of
> >this thread.
> >
> >Want to keep playing, Mr. Mockery? Fine.
>
> Yup. We're here Waldo.
>
> >I'll keep posting facts
>
> When will you post a fact that certification is expensive?
What I'd like to know is how you manage to lick your wounds when I kick your
ass as I have done above. It must be a classic contortionist act!
> When will you post a fact that food companies are coerced into undertaking
> Kosher certification?
Look up.
> When will you post a fact that certification involves expensive costs of
> manufacturing, including extra labor?
Look up.
> When will you post a fact that Kosher certification is a tax?
Look up.
> When will you post a fact, Waldo, rather than your Jew hating induced
> suppositions you expect people to accept as facts?
All of the sources of all of the materials I posted above are either Jewish,
pro-Jewish or non-biased. All you have left are your pathetic denials,
Philip . . . but then, that's all you ever had. . . aside from your
mother-in-law.
> and you can continue to entertain us with scenarios
> >of gecko's running amok in bottled water plants and the like.
>
> It is you how post "scenarios" to support your claims.
Flatulence.
> >Let's start here: If a product inadvertently becomes un-Kosher due to
some
> >minute detail, (to use your example, let's say a gecko scampered across
the
> >equipment at 3:00 AM) and the Rabbi on duty, having missed the
infraction,
> >certifies the goods as Kosher, what are the consequences for the Jews who
> >ultimately unwittingly consume these "traif" goods?
>
> What does this have to do with any of the lies you have told about Kosher
> certification?
Lies are your forte, Filly.
> Looks like Waldo really doesn't want to revisit his humiliation.
Lubinsky!
(I'd advise you NOT to let you mother-in-law read this thread - you'll be
sleeping on the couch for sure!)
Waldo
Observer at Large
Jeffrey G. Brown
wrote:
>One possibility is to DRAIN the water from the BOILER, the CONDENSATE TANK
>and ALL of the LINES. We would then LEAVE IT EMPTY for 24 HOURS before
>filling up with fresh clean water. We would of course kosherize if need be.
>It would STILL not solve the problem of using the boiler for INCOMPATIBLE
>(=meat & dairy, non-kosher) product at the same time. We can DISCONNECT the
>CONDENSATE RETURN LINE from the non-compatible product, [ Increasing water
>usage and energy costs] so the condensate will not return to the boiler.
>Some kosher certifiers will NOT use steam to heat incompatible product EVEN
>when the condensate does NOT return to the boiler. In certain cases with
>some modifications they may allow the use.
>
>[Double the boilers and plumbing]
The article does not say that. Why did you choose to lie about what the article
says, Waldo?
JGB
================================================================== =====
Jeffrey G. Brown jg_b...@my-deja.com
For centuries, philosophers and theologians have debated what it means
to be human. Perhaps the answer has eluded us because it is so simple.
To be human is to choose. - "The Outer Limits: Feasibility Study", 1997
Jeffrey G. Brown
>> When will you post a fact that food companies are coerced into undertaking
>> Kosher certification?
>
>Look up.
You have never posted any evidence that any company has ever been coerced into
undertaking Kosher certification.
Why do you choose to lie by claiming the opposite, Waldo?
Jeffrey G. Brown
>> When will you post a fact that Kosher certification is a tax?
>
>Look up.
You have never posted any evidence that Kosher certification is a tax.
Waldo
Jeffrey G. Brown <jg_b...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:jg_brown-E41830.19412322072001@news-server...
> In article <3b5b5a42$0$1...@news.impulse.net>, "Waldo"
<Wald...@hushmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >One possibility is to DRAIN the water from the BOILER, the CONDENSATE
TANK
> >and ALL of the LINES. We would then LEAVE IT EMPTY for 24 HOURS before
> >filling up with fresh clean water. We would of course kosherize if need
be.
> >It would STILL not solve the problem of using the boiler for INCOMPATIBLE
> >(=meat & dairy, non-kosher) product at the same time. We can DISCONNECT
the
> >CONDENSATE RETURN LINE from the non-compatible product, [ Increasing
water
> >usage and energy costs] so the condensate will not return to the boiler.
> >Some kosher certifiers will NOT use steam to heat incompatible product
EVEN
> >when the condensate does NOT return to the boiler. In certain cases with
> >some modifications they may allow the use.
> >
> >[Double the boilers and plumbing]
>
> The article does not say that. Why did you choose to lie about what the
article
> says, Waldo?
Jeffrey! I was wondering when you were going to raise your Brown head from
the depths of the Cincinnati sewer system!
How's that Carpal Tunnel Syndrome in your jaw? Have you been able to return
to gainful employment in your chosen "profession"?
In response to the red herring you floated:
_______________________
" All cooking in factories is done in STEAM-FACILITATED KETTLES, which
means that hot water circulates through the thermal walls of these kettles
and carries on to the next kettle."
[NOTE: The steam in these kettles NEVER comes into direct contact with ANY
of the contents of the kettles. But a wall of steel separating the steam
from the product isn't good enough for the superstitious Jews, who believe
that STEAM that HEATS non-Kosher goods has somehow become MAGICALLY
CONTAMINATED]
"Water circulating AROUND a kettle takes on the STATUS of that kettle. If
NON-KOSHER WATER were to begin circulating around a KOSHER KETTLE, all the
PRODUCT in that kettle would become treif. [contaminated]
Therefore, a system must be devised to prevent the commingling of water
circulating around the kettles. This task requires an in-depth knowledge of
the plant's boiler and plumbing systems.
[Actually, this would require a plant to have TWO SEPARATE boilers and TWO
SEPARATE plumbing systems, otherwise, "contamination' would occur at the
BOILER. This would apply to ALL types of food manufacturing facilities. How
much do you suppose doubling up on boilers and plumbing systems in a large
plant would cost Philip? Now expand that figure to cover EVERY MAJOR PLANT
IN THE US that produces both Kosher and non-Kosher items, or even plants
where EVERYTHING is Kosher, but some items contain meat or milk products,
while others do not]
____________________________
Furthermore, many companies would not be comfortable with the idea of
"DRAIN the water from the BOILER, the CONDENSATE TANK and ALL of the LINES.
We would then LEAVE IT EMPTY for 24 HOURS before filling up with fresh clean
water"
every time they switch between Kosher/ non-Kosher or Parve/ Dairy
production. It would mean huge expense, serious amounts of down time and
loss of income.
Try to picture it from your perspective: What if, after every time you
"serviced" a Gentile customer, you had to rinse your mouth with boiling
water, and wait 24 hours before you could "service" a member of your Jewish
clientele?
It really wouldn't make economic sense, would it Jeffrey?
Luckily, companies have the option of adding a second boiler. You on the
other hand, might have to refer your Jewish customers to a different part of
your "plumbing system".
Waldo
Observer at Large
Waldo
> In article <3b5b5a42$0$1...@news.impulse.net>, "Waldo"
<Wald...@hushmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> When will you post a fact that food companies are coerced into
undertaking
> >> Kosher certification?
> >
> >Look up.
>
> You have never posted any evidence that any company has ever been coerced
into
> undertaking Kosher certification.
>
> Why do you choose to lie by claiming the opposite, Waldo?
_______________________
> 2. That companies who undertake it are coerced into doing so.
As I have repeatedly demonstrated, ingredient suppliers who's prime
customers fall prey to the Kosher Kabal must follow suit, and in turn grease
the palms of the Rabbis, or possibly face financial ruin.
_______________________
If it's Brown,
flush
it
down!
Waldo
Observer at Large
Jeffrey G. Brown
wrote:
>Jeffrey G. Brown <jg_b...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>news:jg_brown-C6011B.19442622072001@news-server...
>> In article <3b5b5a42$0$1...@news.impulse.net>, "Waldo"
><Wald...@hushmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> When will you post a fact that food companies are coerced into undertaking
>> >> Kosher certification?
>> >
>> >Look up.
>>
>> You have never posted any evidence that any company has ever been coerced into
>> undertaking Kosher certification.
>>
>> Why do you choose to lie by claiming the opposite, Waldo?
>
>_______________________
>
>> 2. That companies who undertake it are coerced into doing so.
>
>As I have repeatedly demonstrated
You have never demonstrated anything of the sort. You have yet to post an
instance of a single company that has been coerced into obtaining Kosher
certification against its will. You are lying when you claim otherwise.
Jeffrey G. Brown
wrote:
>Jeffrey G. Brown <jg_b...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>news:jg_brown-E41830.19412322072001@news-server...
>> In article <3b5b5a42$0$1...@news.impulse.net>, "Waldo"
><Wald...@hushmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >One possibility is to DRAIN the water from the BOILER, the CONDENSATE
>TANK
>> >and ALL of the LINES. We would then LEAVE IT EMPTY for 24 HOURS before
>> >filling up with fresh clean water. We would of course kosherize if need be.
>> >It would STILL not solve the problem of using the boiler for INCOMPATIBLE
>> >(=meat & dairy, non-kosher) product at the same time. We can DISCONNECT the
>> >CONDENSATE RETURN LINE from the non-compatible product, [ Increasing water
>> >usage and energy costs] so the condensate will not return to the boiler.
>> >Some kosher certifiers will NOT use steam to heat incompatible product EVEN
>> >when the condensate does NOT return to the boiler. In certain cases with
>> >some modifications they may allow the use.
>> >
>> >[Double the boilers and plumbing]
>>
>> The article does not say that. Why did you choose to lie about what the article
>> says, Waldo?
> [...deletia: evasion...]
Answer the question: Why did you choose to lie about the contents of the article?
Jeffrey G. Brown
>Jeffrey G. Brown <jg_b...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
Nothing here about "double the boilers and plumbing".
Why did you choose to lie about the contents of the article?
> [...deletia...]
>"Water circulating AROUND a kettle takes on the STATUS of that kettle. If
>NON-KOSHER WATER were to begin circulating around a KOSHER KETTLE, all the
>PRODUCT in that kettle would become treif. [contaminated]
> Therefore, a system must be devised to prevent the commingling of water
>circulating around the kettles. This task requires an in-depth knowledge of
>the plant's boiler and plumbing systems.
Nothing here about "double the boilers and plumbing".
Why did you choose to lie about the contents of the article?
>[Actually, this would require a plant to have TWO SEPARATE boilers and TWO
>SEPARATE plumbing systems
Cite such a plant. Provide precise location and contact information. As a known
and proven liar, your statements alone are insufficient evidence of your claims.
> [...deletia...]
>"DRAIN the water from the BOILER, the CONDENSATE TANK and ALL of the LINES.
>We would then LEAVE IT EMPTY for 24 HOURS before filling up with fresh clean
>water"
Nothing here about "double the boilers and plumbing".
Why did you choose to lie about the contents of the article?
JGB
Waldo
Waldo
Waldo
Jeffrey G. Brown
wrote:
> [...deletia: evasion...]
In article <3b5b5a42$0$1...@news.impulse.net>, "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com>
wrote:
>> When will you post a fact that Kosher certification is a tax?
>
>Look up.
You have never posted any evidence that Kosher certification is a tax.
Why do you choose to lie by claiming the opposite, Waldo? And why are you afraid
to confront the issue of your dishonesty directly? You _do_ realize that you are
lying, of course.
Jeffrey G. Brown
wrote:
> [...deletia...]
Waldo runs from the evidence of his lies -- as usual.
Your credibility on the Kosher issue has just been destroyed -- by you. Thank
you for your help, coward.
Jeffrey G. Brown
wrote:
> [...deletia: evasion...]
You are unable to deal honestly with the evidence of your lies, and so you
choose to run. Thank you for demonstrating the essential cowardice of the bigot.
Philip Mathews
> Philip Mathews <phil...@aol.com> wrote
> Here we go again: You demand proof, I provide cites to non-biased or
> pro-Jewish sources proving my points, you snip my evidence, and later claim
> that I never provided the proof.
Nope. You post long passages containing no evidence the Kosher
certification is expensive, coerced, requires lots of new equipment,
or personnnel. You hope no one will notice. Guess what, we're going to
point it out again.
> > 1. That Kosher certification is a tax.
>
> First, I didn't coin the phrase. "Tax" is perhaps not the best description
> of the Kosher pyramid scheme, but it gets the point across.
It doesn't matter whether you coined it. You use it, and it's a lie.
It is not a tax, but it serves your Jew hating agenda. So we begin
with your inability to offer any evidence that Kosher certification is
a tax.
> Second, the monies paid by consumers to cover the costs of Kosher
> Certification are a " *BURDENSOME CHARGE* obligation, duty or demand "
> which, according to Webster's, qualifies as a "TAX".
The second definition is also not met, since you haven't been able to
show it's burdensome. Of course, this is not the sense in which you
use the word in any event.
> Furthermore, most consumers are unaware that such a *burdensome charge* on
> their foodstuffs exists, it therefore the burdensome charge qualifies as a
> HIDDEN TAX.
You've just shown you have no evidence it's a tax. Most of the costs
of foodstuffs are hidden to the consumer. As a Jew hater you're only
concerned with things to do with Jews.
> Third, because 95%+ of all consumers can never *hope* to derive any benefit
> from Kosherization, it is WORSE than a tax levied by government, from which
> consumers can at least expect some minimal return in the form of services.
There are many things which go into the cost of food products which do
not benefit "any" consumers. But we see your desperate attempt to
continue to use the word tax, despite your utter failure to show its a
tax.
> > 2. That companies who undertake it are coerced into doing so.
>
> As I have repeatedly demonstrated, ingredient suppliers who's prime
> customers fall prey to the Kosher Kabal must follow suit, and in turn grease
> the palms of the Rabbis, or possibly face financial ruin.
This was the desperate argument you made when you were unable to offer
a single food manufacturer who had been coerced into Kosher
certification. And of course, you still haven't. Ingredient suppliers
are in the business of supplying what manufacturers need. They are no
more coerced in this regard than they are when told to provide 1/12
inch chopped walnuts instead of 1/8 inch chopped walnuts. In other
words, everything sold by ingredient suppliers is coerced by the
manufacturers they supply.
> > 3. That it's expensive and costs a lot of ignorant bigots such as
> yourself
> > lots of money.
>
> It costs EVERYONE, Filly, including Judaeophilic fools such as yourself. (Or
> perhaps you get Kosher rebate checks in the mail?) Unwitting Gentiles bear
> 95% of the costs. For the Kash-R-Us agencies, it's a Kash Kow, for the
> Orthodox Jews, it's a WELFARE system!
Look at Waldo try to dodge! Your claim is its expensive. You've been
unable to prove it.
>
> > 4. That companies spend lots of money on new plants, equipment, and extra
> > labor.
>
> Ready Philip? Here we go!
Oh God, another long list. Please look for quantification of costs,
required new equipment, and additional employees as you read!
> http://www.aristechchem.com/overview/kosher.htm
>
> " . . .While we do not ingest acetone directly, it is used to manufacture
> the CONTAINERS in which kosher food is PACKAGED, and, therefore, must meet
> the Kosher Code requiring that acetone be certified. . .
No quantification of cost, new equipment or employees.
>
> " . . . In compliance with Kosher Code requirements and as part of the Good
> Manufacturing Practices (GMP), tankers should be used that are SOLELY
> dedicated to hauling acetone or other petrochemical products that do NOT
> come in contact with animal-derived materials. If the tanker was used for
> these types of materials, the tanker must be properly cleaned and "HOT
> SANITIZED." The tanker and ALL its OFF-LOADING LINES and PUMPS must be
> thoroughly cleaned and a wash out slip must be provided stating that the
> tanker has been cleaned and sanitized before loading can proceed. The wash
> out slip, along with information on the prior load, will accompany the
> shipment to any kosher acetone customer. This assures the customer that all
> precautions have been taken to avoid possible contamination of the product."
Yup, gotta keep things clean. No quantification of costs, new
equipment or employees.
> http://www.ok.org/homemaker/pesach60/kosher.html
>
> " The OK has created a comprehensive set of instructions for our dairy
> mashgichim to follow so that all pertinent issues are addressed. Among these
> guidelines, the mashgiach must visit the farm prior to milking so that we
> can explain our requirements. The mashgiach [Kash-R-Us Rabbi] MUST BE
> PRESENT at the BEGINNING of the milking to insure that no residual
> non-kosher milk is left in the milking receptacle. If milking begins PRIOR
> to the mashgiach's arrival, the milk is REJECTED. If the mashgiach is
> certain that proper procedures will be followed, he does not have to remain
> for the entire milking, but will return periodically (yotzei v'nichnas).
No quantification of cost, new equipment, or new employees. Yup,
Kosher certification requires a process and an inspection.
> " All milk stored in tanks must be SEALED by the mashgiach when he leaves
> the farm. The mashgiach MUST be present AFTER milking to supervise the
> loading and sealing of the tanks. The mashgiach MUST VISIT EACH farm on his
> route at the *beginning, middle, and end of the milking*; ideally no more
> than TWENTY MINUTES will elapse between visits.
No quantification of cost, new equipment or employees.
> " Recently we discovered that the milking for a popular chalav Yisrael
> product was being done with insufficient Jewish oversight. The mashgiach
> visited only once every EIGHT hours; additionally, he was unable to go into
> one of the farms at night. We have been forced to DISCONTINUE USE of this
> product in OK-certified establishments.
Yup, you must follow the rules. No quantification of cost, new
equipment, or employees.
> " Finally, the mashgiach receiving the tank truck at the dairy must REJECT
> the shipment if the truck arrives without a seal. Transport trucks must
> always either be sealed or be physically ACCOMPANIED by the mashgiach."
No quantification of cost, new equipment or employees.
> " Our farm mashgichim complete a detailed Supervision Report for each chalav
> Yisrael production. This report is forwarded to our central office, so that
> we maintain a permanent record of all OK-supervised chalav Yisrael
> productions. Consumers can enjoy OK chalav Yisrael products with the
> assurance that these have been made under the strictest guidelines."
Yup, Kosher certification requires bookeeping. No quantification of
costs, new equipment or employees.
> http://www.koshertodayonline.com/kosher%20today%20archives/2001/0201/TECHNOL
> OGY%20RAISES%20MANY%20QUESTIONS.htm
>
> " Another concern that we have in the kosher industry is EQUIPMENT
> CONTAMINATION. A company may produce a kosher product and the formula
> presented to the certifying agency listing all of the ingredients. While the
> components may be good, the question is about the equipment? Is the
> equipment used by the company utilized interchangeably? In other words, do
> they produce KOSHER and NON-KOSHER in the same tank? If so, how is it
> KOSHERIZED from one product to the other? Is it being MONITORED? Are any of
> the products marinated for OVER 24 HOURS in any given piece of equipment?
> These are questions that companies have to be aware of, that will be asked
> by the supervising agency. . . .
Yup, you have to clean it a special way if it was used for non-Kosher.
No quantification of cost, new equipment, or employees.
> " . . . .There is also a problem with shipping bulk liquids. The tank cars.
> The trucks. What did they carry before they were loaded with the kosher
> product? . . . "
>
> [There are several companies that specialize in performing the highly
> specialized cleaning that the Kash-R-Us agencies demand tanker trucks
> undergo before they are allowed to carry Kosher products. (see "Acetone"
> above) A tanker that had just delivered a load of premium grade olive oil
> would be forced to undergo a Kash-R-Us cleaning before it could haul
> "Kosher" olive oil. Does this represent a significant expense, Philip?]
Cleaning a truck. No, I wouldn't say so. And of course you can't
quantify either the cost or how many companies have to do this.
> http://www.yikgh.org/torch471.htm
>
> "APPRECIATING THE MASHGIACH
> " No doubt, as in most professions, there are those who excel while others
Not what is says, poor Waldo. No quantification of cost, new equipment
or employees.
> " All cooking in factories is done in STEAM-FACILITATED KETTLES, which
> means that hot water circulates through the thermal walls of these kettles
> and carries on to the next kettle."
No quantification of cost, new equipment or employees.
>
> "Water circulating AROUND a kettle takes on the STATUS of that kettle. If
> NON-KOSHER WATER were to begin circulating around a KOSHER KETTLE, all the
> PRODUCT in that kettle would become treif. [contaminated]
> Therefore, a system must be devised to prevent the commingling of water
> circulating around the kettles. This task requires an in-depth knowledge of
> the plant's boiler and plumbing systems.
>
> [Actually, this would require a plant to have TWO SEPARATE boilers and TWO
> SEPARATE plumbing systems, otherwise, "contamination'
No it wouldn't. No quantification of costs, new equipment or
employees.
> " All margarine processors have remelt, i.e., product that does not meet
> specifications or which spilled out on the side during packing. This product
> gets returned to the beginning of production to be reprocessed. The remelt
> is either manually transported or "hard-piped" back to the starting area.
> When the product is hard-piped, the pipes are usually TRACED [jacketed]
> WITH HOT WATER to keep the product soft. Here too, the TRACER WATER must
> remain SEPARATE. And, great care must be exercised to see that DAIRY,
> PAREVE, or NON-KOSHER remelt is transported to the beginning of its
> respective line.
> All of this does not take into account the complexities of KASHERING the
> KETTLES, LINES, HEAT EXCHANGERS, VOTATORS, or PACKING LINES. Nor does it
> take into account monitoring ingredients and overseeing bulk deliveries of
> oils, not to mention the KASHRUT STATUS of the TRUCKS or RAIL CARS used to
> deliver these oils.
> So, the next time you see a mashgiach for a reputable organization, give
> him a well-deserved "Y'Yasher Kochacha."
And once again, no quantification of cost, new equipment or employees.
> http://www.koshertodayonline.com/kosher%20today%20archives/1998/0698/Kosher%
> 20Surimi-Faux%20Shellfish.htm
>
> Daniel Berlin, President of the 2-1/2 year old Dyna Sea Group, is one of the
> nation's major producers of kosher-certified surimi. How is this different
> from the non-kosher? In every imaginable way. According to Berlin, "Every
> inch of the way plant and equipment are kashered. Even the FISHING BOATS are
> inspected. This is an ENORMOUS undertaking and the reason why KOSHER surimi
> is MORE EXPENSIVE than the non-kosher kind."
A specialty product which costs more. If you've ever been in a fish
plant, you'd be grateful for the extra care taken. But it doesn't
quantify the cost, no new equipment and employees.
> http://www.ok.org/homemaker/shavous60/kosher.html
>
> Kashering a Pasteurizer
>
> When the milk arrives at the dairy from the farm, it is put into huge
> storage tanks. We mentioned in our previous article that such tanks
> sometimes store the milk for more than TWENTY FOUR HOURS. Therefore, they
> are considered kavush, and they must be kosherized. To circumvent this
> problem, the OK has pioneered a system to rotate the milk between tanks, so
> that it does not stay in any one tank for twenty-four consecutive hours.
> [Yet another expense to satisfy superstitious Jewish RELIGIOUS tradition]
What expense. You've quantified no expense.
>
> The next piece of equipment to be used is the pasteurizer. Here the milk is
> heated to approximately 160° Fahrenheit. According to halachah, a utensil in
> which a liquid was cooked has to be kosherized using boiling water. Many of
> our readers have kashered a pot in their kitchen, by cooking water in it
> until it boils over.
No quantification of expense, new equipment or employees.
> However, koshering a pasteurizer is not simple, for we are presented with a
> unique challenge. A pasteurizer operates as a closed system. We cannot see
> inside when the pasteurizer is working, meaning that we cannot see the water
> boiling. The accepted practice among kashrus agencies is to rely upon a
> thermometer to measure the heat of the water.
Gee, I'll bet that thermometer is expensive! No quantification of
expense, new equipment or employees.
(snip paragraph about how to boil)
(snip paragraph about international presence)
(snip another chapter on boiling)
(snip a few more paragraphs about boiling milk which contain no
quantification of costs, new equipment or employees.
Waldo must think people are all like Cummins, so impressed by the
length they don't even read it!
> Condensation and Drying
> Spray dryers may be small, or they may be as tall as a six-story building;
> the latter are particularly difficult to kosherize. [And expensive, wouldn't
> you imagine?] Nonetheless, we thoroughly kasher these with boiling water. At
> some large plants, companies run simultaneous productions of chalav Yisrael
> and non-chalav Yisrael. In a recent production, we arranged to separate
> these runs, in order to avoid a mix-up. Before the chalav Yisrael run had
> ended, the company started to run chalav stam. WE REJECTED THE ENTIRE
> ONE-TON PRODUCTION.
>
> (Yes, I said BILLION$)
But, no quantification of costs, new equipment or employees.
Production runs are screwed up all the time. That is a production
cost, not a Kosher certification cost.
(snip chapter on milk drying)
> A roller dryer is heated using either regular water or water that was
> removed from milk in the condenser. While we generally assume that water is
> kosher, IF the water has been used to HEAT NON-kosher ingredients, it may be
> rendered NOT KOSHER. We therefore must ascertain that KOSHER WATER is being
> used to HEAT the roller dryer. Condensate - water that was removed from
> non-chalav Yisrael milk by a condenser - also should not be used to heat the
> roller dryer.
>
> [Again, doubling-up on boilers and plumbing systems. Easily HUNDREDS OF
> THOUSANDS in KOSHER expense of one large plant.]
No doubling up is mentioned. Poor Waldo is getting desperate!
(two more irrelevant paragraphs about milk production snipped)
> http://www.mk.ca/newsletter9/vol1iss9.html
>
> " Given the difficulty in Kashering chocolate plants, it is noteworthy that
> at least one company has indeed succeeded in achieving a Kashering with
> water to produce a truly Mehadrin chocolate. A famous Swiss chocolate
> company has agreed to make specially supervised productions of Passover
> Cholov Yisroel chocolate. Until this production, no Swiss chocolate company
> had ever agreed to allow the Kashering of its equipment with water. For this
> production, all equipment was Kashered with a flame or with hot water, and
> EQUIPMENT THAT PROVED TO BE DIFFICULT TO KASHER WAS REPLACED WITH EQUIPMENT
> DEDICATED TO KOSHER PRODUCTION. "
But what equipment? How much equipment? What was the cost?
No quantification of cost or new employees.
(Snip long passage about Montreal Kosher rules offering nothing on
quantification of cost, new equipment or employees.
Just filler, folks.
> ________________________
>
> http://www.ok.org/homemaker/shvouot98/kashrus.html
>
> What are some of the kashrus issues encountered in cheese production? A
> concern can arise with traditional Muenster, Romano, Parmesan, and
> Mozzarella cheeses, since they are put in brine. If the brine tanks were
> previously used for not kosher cheese, they must be kashered. However, this
> kashering is very difficult, and the CHEESE INDUSTRY HAS ACQUIRED *NEW*
> TANKS THAT ARE USED EXCLUSIVELY FOR KOSHER CHEESE.
No quantification of cost or new employees. A tank is hardly a major
cost, assuming they didn't need new ones anyway.
(snip paragraph about cheese being made on Mondays.)
(snip paragraph on curds and whey)
(snip paragraph on kashering knives and tanks)
(snip paragraph on demoamer)
(snip 3 paragraphs about a Jew being needed for overseeing cheese
production, etc. Still nothing about quantification of costs, new
equipment or employees.)
> _______________________
>
> http://www.mk.ca/newsletter15/vol2iss4.html
>
> " The Bais Din of the Agudas Yisroel in Yerushalayim also ruled that such
> material would be considered Pareve. The only practical problem with the
> product is that its production is tedious and therefore MORE COSTLY than
> conventional gelatin. First, only part of the production in a Kosher
> slaughterhouse is indeed Kosher - some animals are Treifa (having damaged
> internal organs) and others are not slaughtered properly (Neveila), both of
> which are not Kosher. As such, hides from Glatt Kosher animals must be
> monitored and segregated for gelatin production. Second, the hides must be
> soaked and salted ("Kashered") to remove blood, just as all Kosher meat is
> processed. Third, the hides used in conventional gelatin production are
> generally the trimmings and other by-products of the leather industry, which
> can be purchased at heavy discounts; Kosher hides are prime material and
> must be purchased at full price. Fourth, the EQUIPMENT used to produce
> Kosher gelatin must be *completely Kashered* from their normal non-Kosher
> production, A TIME-CONSUMING AND EXPENSIVE PROCESS. In addition, the entire
> process must be SUPERVISED. Nevertheless, Kolatin is used to make true
> gelatin deserts and real marshmallows, both of which are available with a
> reliable Kosher certification under the Elyon label."
Another specialty product. No quantification of expense, new equipment
or employees.
(snip 2 paragraphs on boiling)
> Water in the boiler is heated and turns to steam. The steam leaves the
> boiler by a pipe or pipes called the "Main", where it enters the "Header".
> From the header the steam enters branch lines, & is carried into risers &
> then to the steam heating equipment, usually a DOUBLE WALLED VESSEL. **The
> food /ingredient is in the equipment on one side of the wall & the steam is
> on the other side of the wall of the equipment.**
>
> [No cross-contamination occurs!]
No quantification of cost, new equipment, or employees.
> One possibility is to DRAIN the water from the BOILER, the CONDENSATE TANK
> and ALL of the LINES. We would then LEAVE IT EMPTY for 24 HOURS before
> filling up with fresh clean water. We would of course kosherize if need be.
> It would STILL not solve the problem of using the boiler for INCOMPATIBLE
> (=meat & dairy, non-kosher) product at the same time. We can DISCONNECT the
> CONDENSATE RETURN LINE from the non-compatible product, [ Increasing water
> usage and energy costs] so the condensate will not return to the boiler.
> Some kosher certifiers will NOT use steam to heat incompatible product EVEN
> when the condensate does NOT return to the boiler. In certain cases with
> some modifications they may allow the use.
>
> [Double the boilers and plumbing]
Nope, not what it said at all. No quantification of costs, new
equipment or employees.
(snip more irrelevant paragraphs about boiling)
(snip long irrelevant section on kashering kitchen utensils. LOL)
(snip long section on Passover runs with no relevance to quantifying
costs, new equipment or employees.
> > These are but a few of the claims you've made about Kosher certification -
> > claims you've been shown to be unable to support.
>
> Your pathetic denial doesn't make it so, Filly.
It's just been demonstrated again.
So there you have it. Not a single instance of quantified costs to
support the notion that Kosher certification is expensive. A couple of
possible instances of new equipment, and not a single instance of new
employees needed. And this is from a clearly selected list, of the
most difficult to Kosher processes, whose experiences are not even
akin to the vast majority of food companies.
Kosher certification is not a tax, is not expensive, is not undertaken
by coercion, and does not necessarily involve new equipment or
employees.
--
Philip Mathews
Steven Mock
<snip: cut-n-paste descriptions of how to kosherize equipment for
certain products, along-side Waldo's inane commentary exaggerting the
expense involved>
Waldo, Waldo, Waldo, you sorry little man. You once again miss the
point entirely.
Wasn't it YOU, who just a few days ago, in an uncharacteristic moment
of clarity, said something along the lines of "it doesn't matter what
it costs, what matters is whether its cost-effective".
So telling us the procedure for kosherizing certain types of equipment
for certain types of products and then going "ooo, that's expensive"
doesn't make a damn bit of difference unless you can show us a case in
which a company went through the expense of any these procedures
without a reasonable expectation of a comperable return.
Can you, or are you going to keep resorting to your usual tactic of
burying us in irrelevancies and pretending that the documentation
supports your point.
We'll wait.
Steven Mock
David S. Maddison
2001 23:41:12 GMT "Jeffrey G. Brown" <jg_b...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>In article <3b5b5a42$0$1...@news.impulse.net>, "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>One possibility is to DRAIN the water from the BOILER, the CONDENSATE TANK
>>and ALL of the LINES. We would then LEAVE IT EMPTY for 24 HOURS before
>>filling up with fresh clean water. We would of course kosherize if need be.
>>It would STILL not solve the problem of using the boiler for INCOMPATIBLE
>>(=meat & dairy, non-kosher) product at the same time. We can DISCONNECT the
>>CONDENSATE RETURN LINE from the non-compatible product, [ Increasing water
>>usage and energy costs] so the condensate will not return to the boiler.
>>Some kosher certifiers will NOT use steam to heat incompatible product EVEN
>>when the condensate does NOT return to the boiler. In certain cases with
>>some modifications they may allow the use.
>>
>>[Double the boilers and plumbing]
>
>The article does not say that. Why did you choose to lie about what the article
>says, Waldo?
Indeed. Nearly all modern food processing plants have inbuilt steam
cleaning systems. Running steam through them is as simple as turning a
tap (faucet, valve) and is done routinely between production runs in
any case.
David Maddison
Nicegoy
>From: David S. Maddison madd...@connexus.net.au
>Date: 7/26/01 9:25 PM E. Australia Standard Time
>Message-id: <sdvvltclkkunitfok...@4ax.com>
ROTFL... Maddison, you would not know what went on outside the local public
washroom, so stop talking crap.