The Pleas of a Saint
Debunks
Emperor Decius, St. Pionius addressed the Jews who taunted him before his
death:
"I say this to you Jews....that if we are enemies, we are also human beings.
Have any of you been injured by us? Have we caused you to be tortured? When
have we unjustly persecuted? When have we harmed in speech? When have we
cruelly dragged to torture?
Acta Savctorum, 1, 37-46.
DeppityBob
Yet another golden attempt by Jew-hating Joe to prove how he doesn't actually
hate Jews, I see.
Dep
"Always tell the truth. It's the easiest thing to remember."
--David Mamet
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Like short haired women? Snotty comments? Penguins?
http://members.aol.com/deppitybob/shlu/PAGEONE.html
John Morris
09:04:00 GMT, deppi...@aol.comx.y.z... (DeppityBob) wrote:
[Bellinger copied]:
>>Before his martyrdom at the hands of the Jews during the reign of the Roman
>>Emperor Decius, St. Pionius addressed the Jews who taunted him before his
>>death:
>>"I say this to you Jews....that if we are enemies, we are also human beings.
>>Have any of you been injured by us? Have we caused you to be tortured? When
>>have we unjustly persecuted? When have we harmed in speech? When have we
>>cruelly dragged to torture?
>>Acta Savctorum, 1, 37-46.
>Yet another golden attempt by Jew-hating Joe to prove how he doesn't actually
>hate Jews, I see.
Pathetic, isn't it?
--
John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
David Gehrig
John....@xmunge.UAlberta.CA (John Morris) wrote:
>In <19990302040400...@ng36.aol.com>, on 2 Mar 1999
>09:04:00 GMT, deppi...@aol.comx.y.z... (DeppityBob) wrote:
>
>[Bellinger copied]:
>
>>>Before his martyrdom at the hands of the Jews during the reign of the Roman
>>>Emperor Decius, St. Pionius addressed the Jews who taunted him before his
>>>death:
>
>>>"I say this to you Jews....that if we are enemies, we are also human beings.
>>>Have any of you been injured by us? Have we caused you to be tortured? When
>>>have we unjustly persecuted? When have we harmed in speech? When have we
>>>cruelly dragged to torture?
>
>>>Acta Savctorum, 1, 37-46.
>
>>Yet another golden attempt by Jew-hating Joe to prove how he doesn't actually
>>hate Jews, I see.
>
>Pathetic, isn't it?
Perhaps Joe is going to argue that St. Pionius predicted the Holocaust?
Or failed to do so, and therefore it didn't happen? And I certainly
hope that he's not under the illusion that there are no Jewish
counterparts to this statement during the long history of persecution
by the Church...
@%<
Debunks
>From: deppi...@aol.comx.y.z... (DeppityBob)
>Date: 3/2/99 4:04 AM EST
>Message-id: <19990302040400...@ng36.aol.com>
>
>>
>>
>>Before his martyrdom at the hands of the Jews during the reign of the Roman
>>Emperor Decius, St. Pionius addressed the Jews who taunted him before his
>>death:
>>
>>"I say this to you Jews....that if we are enemies, we are also human beings.
>>
>>Have any of you been injured by us? Have we caused you to be tortured?
>> When
>>have we unjustly persecuted? When have we harmed in speech? When have
>>we
>>cruelly dragged to torture?
>>
>>Acta Savctorum, 1, 37-46.
>
>
>Yet another golden attempt by Jew-hating Joe to prove how he doesn't actually
>hate Jews, I see.
>
>
Can you ever address historical issues without plunging headlong into Nizkook
mode?
Debunks
>Date: 3/2/99 6:00 AM EST
>Message-id: <36e6c46e...@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
>
>In <19990302040400...@ng36.aol.com>, on 2 Mar 1999
>09:04:00 GMT, deppi...@aol.comx.y.z... (DeppityBob) wrote:
>
>[Bellinger copied]:
>
>>>Emperor Decius, St. Pionius addressed the Jews who taunted him before his
>>>death:
>
>>>"I say this to you Jews....that if we are enemies, we are also human
>beings.
>>>Have any of you been injured by us? Have we caused you to be tortured?
>When
>>>have we unjustly persecuted? When have we harmed in speech? When have we
>>>cruelly dragged to torture?
>
>>>Acta Savctorum, 1, 37-46.
>
>>Yet another golden attempt by Jew-hating Joe to prove how he doesn't
>actually
>>hate Jews, I see.
>
>
>--
> John Morris
Yes, you are. More will be on the way, as I now need to set a proper
historical background for the examination of the Sepher Toldoth Yeshu--it's
origins, who wrote it and why, and so on. Remember--you have been taunting me
for it, and thus you have opened the door to this approach. Enjoy.
Debunks
>Date: 3/2/99 10:19 AM EST
>Message-id: <SjTC2.26$HD5...@news12.ispnews.com>
>>09:04:00 GMT, deppi...@aol.comx.y.z... (DeppityBob) wrote:
>>
>>[Bellinger copied]:
>>
>>>>Before his martyrdom at the hands of the Jews during the reign of the
>Roman
>>>>Emperor Decius, St. Pionius addressed the Jews who taunted him before his
>>>>death:
>>
>>>>"I say this to you Jews....that if we are enemies, we are also human
>beings.
>>>>Have any of you been injured by us? Have we caused you to be tortured?
>When
>>>>have we unjustly persecuted? When have we harmed in speech? When have we
>>>>cruelly dragged to torture?
>>
>>>>Acta Savctorum, 1, 37-46.
>>
>>>Yet another golden attempt by Jew-hating Joe to prove how he doesn't
>actually
>>>hate Jews, I see.
>>
>>Pathetic, isn't it?
>
No, but perhaps you can tell us the name ofthe Rabbi whom many claim did.
>Or failed to do so, and therefore it didn't happen?
Look to your own Torah for that. You claim it predicted everything else of
major significance in your history. Apparently the holocaust did not quite
rate, eh? :>)
>And I certainly
>hope that he's not under the illusion that there are no Jewish
>counterparts to this statement during the long history of persecution
>by the Church...
>
>@%<
>
>>--
>> John Morris
Uh huh. However, if we examine the histoical context here, it will soon be
made abundantly clear which side BEGAN these horrors and why, and dare I say,
you will be foaming at the mouth again when all is said and done.
This being said, I will make it clear for the record right now that this is
simply an historical exercise to examine the whys and whos involved in the
ongoing animoisty between Jews and Christians--who provoked it and why--with a
special emphasis on the final focus of this thread: The Sepher Toldoth Yeshu.
Allow me to also make it clear that I do not blame new generations of Jews for
these horrifying and odious examples of hatred and intolerance-indeed, many
Jews who converted have suffered horribly at the hands of their
co-religionists, much as Christian heretics suffered at the hands of theirs in
the middle ages-but it is certainly pertinent to inquire whether by their
silence, knowledgeable Jews have not condemned these crimes by their
co-religionists centuries ago. And according to the Jewish female authoress of
"Hole in the Sheet," the hate goes on.....the hate goes on....
John Morris
20:58:05 GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
>>From: deppi...@aol.comx.y.z... (DeppityBob)
>>Message-id: <19990302040400...@ng36.aol.com>
>>>Before his martyrdom at the hands of the Jews during the reign of the Roman
>>>Emperor Decius, St. Pionius addressed the Jews who taunted him before his
>>>death:
>>>"I say this to you Jews....that if we are enemies, we are also human beings.
>>>Have any of you been injured by us? Have we caused you to be tortured? When
>>>have we unjustly persecuted? When have we harmed in speech? When have we
>>>cruelly dragged to torture?
>>>Acta Savctorum, 1, 37-46.
>>Yet another golden attempt by Jew-hating Joe to prove how he doesn't actually
>>hate Jews, I see.
>Can you ever address historical issues without plunging headlong into Nizkook
>mode?
Well, don't keep us in suspense. What historical issue did you intend
to address?
John Morris
20:59:39 GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
>>From: John....@xmunge.UAlberta.CA (John Morris)
>>Message-id: <36e6c46e...@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
>>In <19990302040400...@ng36.aol.com>, on 2 Mar 1999
>>09:04:00 GMT, deppi...@aol.comx.y.z... (DeppityBob) wrote:
>>[Bellinger copied]:
>>>>Before his martyrdom at the hands of the Jews during the reign of the Roman
>>>>Emperor Decius, St. Pionius addressed the Jews who taunted him before his
>>>>death:
>>>>"I say this to you Jews....that if we are enemies, we are also human beings.
>>>>Have any of you been injured by us? Have we caused you to be tortured? When
>>>>have we unjustly persecuted? When have we harmed in speech? When have we
>>>>cruelly dragged to torture?
>>>>Acta Savctorum, 1, 37-46.
>>>Yet another golden attempt by Jew-hating Joe to prove how he doesn't actually
>>>hate Jews, I see.
>>Pathetic, isn't it?
>Yes, you are. More will be on the way, as I now need to set a proper
>historical background for the examination of the Sepher Toldoth Yeshu--it's
>origins, who wrote it and why, and so on. Remember--you have been taunting me
>for it, and thus you have opened the door to this approach. Enjoy.
Translation: "The English translation I hoped to use is out of the
library."
BTW, tell us again your point in bring up the Sepher Toledoth Yeshu at
all. I am perplexed by your claim that you want to discuss the
Holocaust on the one hand and your complaint that we are all reponding
to what you rightly call your "silly posts," and the other.
Are you still trying to prove that you are a foremost expert on
Judaism?
John Morris
-0600, "David Gehrig" <zem...@antihormeltref.soltec.net> wrote:
>In article <36e6c46e...@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
>John....@xmunge.UAlberta.CA (John Morris) wrote:
>>In <19990302040400...@ng36.aol.com>, on 2 Mar 1999
>>09:04:00 GMT, deppi...@aol.comx.y.z... (DeppityBob) wrote:
>>[Bellinger copied]:
>>>>Before his martyrdom at the hands of the Jews during the reign of the Roman
>>>>Emperor Decius, St. Pionius addressed the Jews who taunted him before his
>>>>death:
>>>>"I say this to you Jews....that if we are enemies, we are also human beings.
>>>>Have any of you been injured by us? Have we caused you to be tortured? When
>>>>have we unjustly persecuted? When have we harmed in speech? When have we
>>>>cruelly dragged to torture?
>>>>Acta Savctorum, 1, 37-46.
>>>Yet another golden attempt by Jew-hating Joe to prove how he doesn't actually
>>>hate Jews, I see.
>>Pathetic, isn't it?
>Perhaps Joe is going to argue that St. Pionius predicted the Holocaust?
>Or failed to do so, and therefore it didn't happen? And I certainly
>hope that he's not under the illusion that there are no Jewish
>counterparts to this statement during the long history of persecution
>by the Church...
He says he is setting the historical background for his discussion of
the Sepher Toledoth Yeshu. Since Decius was a third-century emperor,
and since the Sepher Toledoth Yeshu is *conjectured* to be as old
perhaps as the sixth century, and since the version he wants to deal
with is from the twelfth century, I would say we are going to have a
loooong wait for Joe to get to the point.
And the point? The Jews are as evil as he wants to believe they are.
Nine centuries of Saints' Legends. I can hardly wait. See you next
year when he reaches little Hugh of Lincoln meeping out hymns
posthumously in the privy.
"My point--and I do have one. . . ."
David Gehrig
John....@xmunge.UAlberta.CA (John Morris) wrote:
>In <19990302155939...@ng146.aol.com>, on 2 Mar 1999
>20:59:39 GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
>
>>>From: John....@xmunge.UAlberta.CA (John Morris)
>>>Message-id: <36e6c46e...@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
>
>>>In <19990302040400...@ng36.aol.com>, on 2 Mar 1999
>>>09:04:00 GMT, deppi...@aol.comx.y.z... (DeppityBob) wrote:
>
>>>[Bellinger copied]:
>
>>>>>Before his martyrdom at the hands of the Jews during the reign of the Roman
>>>>>Emperor Decius, St. Pionius addressed the Jews who taunted him before his
>>>>>death:
>
>>>>>"I say this to you Jews....that if we are enemies, we are also human beings.
>>>>>Have any of you been injured by us? Have we caused you to be tortured? When
>>>>>have we unjustly persecuted? When have we harmed in speech? When have we
>>>>>cruelly dragged to torture?
>
>>>>>Acta Savctorum, 1, 37-46.
>
>>>>Yet another golden attempt by Jew-hating Joe to prove how he doesn't actually
>>>>hate Jews, I see.
>
>>>Pathetic, isn't it?
>
>>Yes, you are. More will be on the way, as I now need to set a proper
>>historical background for the examination of the Sepher Toldoth Yeshu--it's
>>origins, who wrote it and why, and so on. Remember--you have been taunting me
>>for it, and thus you have opened the door to this approach. Enjoy.
>
>Translation: "The English translation I hoped to use is out of the
>library."
Well then, let's help the poor lad out. After about thirty seconds with
AltaVista I found this:
<http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/JewishJesus/toledoth.html>
---- begin quote
Toledoth Yeshu
[This is a derogatory version of the life of Jesus, growing out of the
response of the Jewish community to Christianity. The tradition presented
here is most commonly dated to approximately the 6th century CE. The text
it self is closer to the 14th c. There is no scholarly consensus on to
what extent the text might be a direct parody of a now lost gospel. H.J.
Schonfield argued that it was so closely connected to the Gospel of the
Hebrews that he attempted to reconstruct that lost work from the Toledoth.
Text from Goldstein, Jesus in the Jewish Tradition, pp. 148-154. Most of
the notes are mine, but they are clearly marked ([G] = Goldstein, [AH] =
me)] [AH = Alan Humm. -- @%<]
In the year 3671[1] in the days of King Jannaeus, a great misfortune befell
Israel, when there arose a certain disreputable man of the tribe of Judah,
whose name was Joseph Pandera. He lived at Bethlehem, in Judah.
Near his house dwelt a widow and her lovely and chaste daughter named
Miriam. Miriam was betrothed to Yohanan, of the royal house of David, a man
learned in the Torah and God-fearing.
At the close of a certain Sabbath, Joseph Pandera, attractive and like a
warrior in appearance, having gazed lustfully upon Miriam, knocked upon the
door of her room and betrayed her by pretending that he was her betrothed
husband, Yohanan. Even so, she was amazed at this improper conduct and
submitted only against her will.
Thereafter, when Yohanan came to her, Miriam expressed astonishment at
behavior so foreign to his character. It was thus that they both came to
know the crime of Joseph Pandera and the terrible mistake on the part of
Miriam. Whereupon Yohanan went to Rabban Shimeon ben Shetah and related to
him the tragic seduction. Lacking witnesses required for the punishment of
Joseph Pandera, and Miriam being with child, Yohanan left for Babylonia.[2]
Miriam gave birth to a son and named him Yehoshua, after her brother. This
name later deteriorated to Yeshu. On the eighth day he was circumcised. When
he was old enough the lad was taken by Miriam to the house of study to be
instructed in the Jewish tradition.
One day Yeshu walked in front of the Sages with his head uncovered, showing
shameful disrespect. At this, the discussion arose as to whether this
behavior did not truly indicate that Yeshu was an illegitimate child and the
son of a niddah[3]. Moreover, the story tells that while the rabbis were
discussing the Tractate Nezikin, he gave his own impudent interpretation of
the law and in an ensuing debate he held that Moses could not be the
greatest of the prophets if he had to receive counsel from Jethro. This led
to further inquiry as to the antecedents of Yeshu, and it was discovered
through Rabban Shimeon ben Shetah that he was the illegitimate son of Joseph
Pandera. Miriam admitted it.[4] After this became known, it was necessary
for Yeshu to flee to Upper Galilee.
After King Jannaeus, his wife Helene[5] ruled over all Israel. In the Temple
was to be found the Foundation Stone on which were engraven the letters of
God's Ineffable Name. Whoever learned the secret of the Name and its use
would be able to do whatever he wished. Therefore, the Sages took measures
so that no one should gain this knowledge. Lions of brass were bound to two
iron pillars at the gate of the place of burnt offerings. Should anyone
enter and learn the Name, when he left the lions would roar at him and
immediately the valuable secret would be forgotten.
Yeshu came and learned the letters of the Name; he wrote them upon the
parchment which he placed in an open cut on his thigh and then drew the
flesh over the parchment. As he left, the lions roared and he forgot the
secret. But when he came to his house he reopened the cut in his flesh with
a knife an lifted out the writing. Then he remembered and obtained the use
of the letters.[6]
He gathered about himself three hundred and ten young men of Israel and
accused those who spoke ill of his birth of being people who desired
greatness and power for themselves. Yeshu proclaimed, "I am the Messiah; and
concerning me Isaiah prophesied and said, 'Behold, a virgin shall conceive,
and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.'" He quoted other
messianic texts, insisting, "David my ancestor prophesied concerning me:
'The Lord said to me, thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee.'"
The insurgents with him replied that if Yeshu was the Messiah he should give
them a convincing sign. They therefore, brought to him a lame man, who had
never walked. Yeshu spoke over the man the letters of the Ineffable Name,
and the leper was healed. Thereupon, they worshipped him as the Messiah, Son
of the Highest.
When word of these happenings came to Jerusalem, the Sanhedrin decided to
bring about the capture of Yeshu. They sent messengers, Annanui and Ahaziah,
who, pretending to be his disciples, said that they brought him an
invitation from the leaders of Jerusalem to visit them. Yeshu consented on
condition the members of the Sanhedrin receive him as a lord. He started out
toward Jerusalem and, arriving at Knob, acquired an ass on which he rode
into Jerusalem, as a fulfillment of the prophecy of Zechariah.
The Sages bound him and led him before Queen Helene, with the accusation:
"This man is a sorcerer and entices everyone." Yeshu replied, "The prophets
long ago prophesied my coming: 'And there shall come forth a rod out of the
stem of Jesse,' and I am he; but as for them, Scripture says 'Blessed is the
man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly.'"
Queen Helene asked the Sages: "What he says, is it in your Torah?" They
replied: "It is in our Torah, but it is not applicable to him, for it is in
Scripture: 'And that prophet which shall presume to speak a word in my name,
which I have not commanded him to speak or that shall speak in the name of
other gods, even that prophet shall die.' He has not fulfilled the signs and
conditions of the Messiah."
Yeshu spoke up: "Madam, I am the Messiah and I revive the dead." A dead body
was brought in; he pronounced the letters of the Ineffable Name and the
corpse came to life. The Queen was greatly moved and said: "This is a true
sign." She reprimanded the Sages and sent them humiliated from her presence.
Yeshu's dissident followers increased and there was controversy in Israel.
Yeshu went to Upper Galilee. the Sages came before the Queen, complaining
that Yeshu practiced sorcery and was leading everyone astray. Therefore she
sent Annanui and Ahaziah to fetch him.
The found him in Upper Galilee, proclaiming himself the Son of God. When
they tried to take him there was a struggle, but Yeshu said to the men of
Upper Galilee: "Wage no battle." He would prove himself by the power which
came to him from his Father in heaven. He spoke the Ineffable Name over the
birds of clay and they flew into the air. He spoke the same letters over a
millstone that had been placed upon the waters. He sat in it and it floated
like a boat. When they saw this the people marveled. At the behest of Yeshu,
the emissaries departed and reported these wonders to the Queen. She
trembled with astonishment.
Then the Sages selected a man named Judah Iskarioto and brought him to the
Sanctuary where he learned the letters of the Ineffable Name as Yeshu had
done.
When Yeshu was summoned before the queen, this time there were present also
the Sages and Judah Iskarioto. Yeshu said: "It is spoken of me, 'I will
ascend into heaven.'" He lifted his arms like the wings of an eagle and he
flew between heaven and earth, to the amazement of everyone.
The elders asked Iskarioto to do likewise. He did, and flew toward heaven.
Iskarioto attempted to force Yeshu down to earth but neither one of the two
could prevail against the other for both had the use of the Ineffable Name.
However, Iskarioto defiled Yeshu, so that they both lost their power and
fell down to the earth, and in their condition of defilement the letters of
the Ineffable Name escaped from them. Because of this deed of Judah they
weep on the eve of the birth of Yeshu.
Yeshu was seized. His head was covered with a garment and he was smitten
with pomegranate staves; but he could do nothing, for he no longer had the
Ineffable Name.
Yeshu was taken prisoner to the synagogue of Tiberias, and they bound him to
a pillar. To allay his thirst they gave him vinegar to drink. On his head
they set a crown of thorns. There was strife and wrangling between the
elders and the unrestrained followers of Yeshu, as a result of which the
followers escaped with Yeshu to the region of Antioch[7]; there Yeshu
remained until the eve of the Passover.
[8] Yeshu then resolved to go the Temple to acquire again the secret of the
Name. That year the Passover came on a Sabbath day. On the eve of the
Passover, Yeshu, accompanied by his disciples, came to Jerusalem riding upon
an ass. Many bowed down before him. He entered the Temple with his three
hundred and ten followers. One of them, Judah Iskarioto[9] apprised the
Sages that Yeshu was to be found in the Temple, that the disciples had taken
a vow by the Ten Commandments not to reveal his identity but that he would
point him out by bowing to him. So it was done and Yeshu was seized. Asked
his name, he replied to the question by several times giving the names
Mattai, Nakki, Buni, Netzer, each time with a verse quoted by him and a
counter-verse by the Sages.
Yeshu was put to death on the sixth hour on the eve of the Passover and of
the Sabbath. When they tried to hang him on a tree it broke, for when he had
possessed the power he had pronounced by the Ineffable Name that no tree
should hold him. He had failed to pronounce the prohibition over the
carob-stalk[10], for it was a plant more than a tree, and on it he was
hanged until the hour for afternoon prayer, for it is written in Scripture,
"His body shall not remain all night upon the tree." They buried him outside
the city.
On the first day of the week his bold followers came to Queen Helene with
the report that he who was slain was truly the Messiah and that he was not
in his grave; he had ascended to heaven as he prophesied. Diligent search
was made and he was not found in the grave where he had been buried. A
gardener had taken him from the grave and had brought him into his garden
and buried him in the sand over which the waters flowed into the garden.
Queen Helene demanded, on threat of a severe penalty, that the body of Yeshu
be shown to her within a period of three days. There was a great distress.
When the keeper of the garden saw Rabbi Tanhuma walking in the field and
lamenting over the ultimatum of the Queen, the gardener related what he had
done, in order that Yeshu's followers should not steal the body and then
claim that he had ascended into heaven. The Sages removed the body, tied it
to the tail of a horse and transported it to the Queen, with the words,
"This is Yeshu who is said to have ascended to heaven." Realizing that Yeshu
was a false prophet who enticed the people and led them astray, she mocked
the followers but praised the Sages.
The disciples went out among the nations--three went to the mountains of
Ararat, three to Armenia, three to Rome and three to the kingdoms buy the
sea, They deluded the people, but ultimately they were slain.
The erring followers amongst Israel said: "You have slain the Messiah of the
Lord." The Israelites answered: "You have believed in a false prophet."
There was endless strife and discord for thirty years.
The Sages desired to separate from Israel those who continued to claim Yeshu
as the Messiah, and they called upon a greatly learned man, Simeon Kepha,
for help. Simeon went to Antioch, main city of the Nazarenes and proclaimed
toe them: "I am the disciple of Yeshu. He has sent me to show you the way. I
will give you a sign as Yeshu has done."
Simeon, having gained the secret of the Ineffable Name, healed a leper and a
lame man by means of it and thus found acceptance as a true disciple. He
told them that Yeshu was in heaven, at the right hand of his Father, in
fulfillment of Psalm 110:1. He added that Yeshu desired that they separate
themselves from the Jews and no longer follow their practices, as Isaiah had
said, "Your new moons and your feasts my soul abhorreth." They were now to
observe the first day of the week instead of the seventh, the Resurrection
instead of the Passover, the Ascension into Heaven instead of the Feast of
Weeks, the finding of the Cross instead of the New Year, the Feast of the
Circumcision instead of the Day of Atonement, the New Year instead of
Chanukah; they were to be indifferent with regard to circumcision and the
dietary laws. Also they were to follow the teaching of turning the right if
smitten on the left and the meek acceptance of suffering. All these new
ordinances which Simeon Kepha (or Paul, as he was known to the Nazarenes)
taught them were really meant to separate these Nazarenes from the people of
Israel and to bring the internal strife to an end.
[----------]
[1] About 90, BC. [G]
[2] Some traditions say 'Egypt'. [AH]
[3] Sexual impurity (incest, adultery, prostitution, etc.). [AH]
[4] In one version of this admission, she confesses that not only is Yeshu
the product of an illicit union, but she was ritually unclean from
menstruation at the time as well (Sexual contact even with a woman's husband
is not lawful during, or, in Rabbinic law, for some time after,
menstruation). [AH]
[5] Salome Alexandra. [G]
[6] Consistent, apparently, with the general tenor of Jewish criticism of
Jesus' miracles going at least as far back as Celsus (2nd c.) this tradition
does not deny Jesus' ability to perform miracles, accusing him instead of
practicing magic. This version even accepts the divine origin of the
miracles, attributing them to his misuse of the divine name, with its
inherent powers. In the Alphabet of Ben Sira, Lilith is accused of the same
crime, using the power of the name to escape from the Garden of Eden. [AH]
[7] Some traditions say 'Egypt'. [G]
[8] In a variation on the story, Judah is able to out-miracle Yeshu in the
sign contest without defiling him. Yeshu is discredited and arrested, and,
as in this story, his followers are able to break him free, but he still
remembers the Ineffable Name. He escapes to Egypt in hopes of learning
Egyptian magic as well (regarded as the best magic in the world). Judah
comes to Egypt and infiltrates the disciples, posing as one himself. It is
from this vantage point that he is able to cause Yeshu to forget the magical
Name, resulting in the later's desire to return to Jerusalem and relearn it.
Judah sends warning to the Sages, along with his plan to arrest him. [AH]
[9] Aramaic: Ga'isa. [G]
[10] Or cabbage stalk. [AH]
--- end quote
Carry on, Joe. I'm particularly curious to see how you address the question
of rabbinic origin, which you have postulated several times. Your proof
is exactly what, Joe? Or will you just dodge the question again, for
the _fifth_ time?
>BTW, tell us again your point in bring up the Sepher Toledoth Yeshu at
>all. I am perplexed by your claim that you want to discuss the
>Holocaust on the one hand and your complaint that we are all reponding
>to what you rightly call your "silly posts," and the other.
>Are you still trying to prove that you are a foremost expert on
>Judaism?
Or is he trying to prove that the Jews deserved what he says they
didn't get?
David Gehrig
(Debunks) wrote:
>>Subject: Re: The Pleas of a Saint
>>From: "David Gehrig" <zem...@antihormeltref.soltec.net>
>>Date: 3/2/99 10:19 AM EST
>>Message-id: <SjTC2.26$HD5...@news12.ispnews.com>
>>
>>In article <36e6c46e...@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
>>John....@xmunge.UAlberta.CA (John Morris) wrote:
>>
>>>In <19990302040400...@ng36.aol.com>, on 2 Mar 1999
>>>09:04:00 GMT, deppi...@aol.comx.y.z... (DeppityBob) wrote:
>>>
>>>[Bellinger copied]:
>>>
>>>>>Before his martyrdom at the hands of the Jews during the reign of the
>>Roman
>>>>>Emperor Decius, St. Pionius addressed the Jews who taunted him before his
>>>>>death:
>>>
>>>>>"I say this to you Jews....that if we are enemies, we are also human
>>beings.
>>>>>Have any of you been injured by us? Have we caused you to be tortured?
>>When
>>>>>have we unjustly persecuted? When have we harmed in speech? When have we
>>>>>cruelly dragged to torture?
>>>
>>>>>Acta Savctorum, 1, 37-46.
>>>
>>>>Yet another golden attempt by Jew-hating Joe to prove how he doesn't
>>actually
>>>>hate Jews, I see.
>>>
>>>Pathetic, isn't it?
>>
>>Perhaps Joe is going to argue that St. Pionius predicted the Holocaust?
>
>No, but perhaps you can tell us the name ofthe Rabbi whom many claim did.
Joe, do you imagine that I'm a subscriber to the "Everything Every Rabbi
In the World Said This Week" newsletter or something?
>>Or failed to do so, and therefore it didn't happen?
>
>Look to your own Torah for that. You claim it predicted everything else of
>major significance in your history. Apparently the holocaust did not quite
>rate, eh? :>)
Joe, _where_ did I claim it predicted everything else of major significance?
Are you so tired of shovelling your erroneous words into the mouth of the
Gyspy woman that you've decided to do it to me instead?
>>And I certainly
>>hope that he's not under the illusion that there are no Jewish
>>counterparts to this statement during the long history of persecution
>>by the Church...
>>
>>@%<
>>
>>>--
>>> John Morris
>
>Uh huh. However, if we examine the histoical context here, it will soon be
>made abundantly clear which side BEGAN these horrors and why, and dare I say,
>you will be foaming at the mouth again when all is said and done.
Ah, so when a Jew attacks a Christian, it's the Jew's fault, but when a
Christian attacks a Jew, it's "the Jews"' fault. (And when you insult _my_
late mother, it's _my_ fault too.) Joe 'logic' at its clearest.
>This being said, I will make it clear for the record right now that this is
>simply an historical exercise to examine the whys and whos involved in the
>ongoing animoisty between Jews and Christians--who provoked it and why--with a
>special emphasis on the final focus of this thread: The Sepher Toldoth Yeshu.
In other words, you are merely preparing the lastest movement of your
ongoing opera, "Blame the Jews." You got uncomfortable and bailed when it
became too clear that you were planning a similar tactic to exonerate
Hitler for his antisemitism, so you hope that -- as long as you shift the
time frame back a millenium -- you can get away the same plan.
>Allow me to also make it clear that I do not blame new generations of Jews for
>these horrifying and odious examples of hatred and intolerance-indeed, many
>Jews who converted have suffered horribly at the hands of their
>co-religionists, much as Christian heretics suffered at the hands of theirs in
>the middle ages-but it is certainly pertinent to inquire whether by their
>silence, knowledgeable Jews have not condemned these crimes by their
>co-religionists centuries ago. And according to the Jewish female authoress of
>"Hole in the Sheet," the hate goes on.....the hate goes on....
Stay tuned for Joe's "I Blame Jews For Everything, But I'm Not an
Antisemite."
@%<
Gord McFee
-0600, "David Gehrig" <zem...@antihormeltref.soltec.net> wrote:
> In article <36e6c46e...@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
> John....@xmunge.UAlberta.CA (John Morris) wrote:
>
> >In <19990302040400...@ng36.aol.com>, on 2 Mar 1999
> >09:04:00 GMT, deppi...@aol.comx.y.z... (DeppityBob) wrote:
> >
> >[Bellinger copied]:
> >
> >>>Before his martyrdom at the hands of the Jews during the reign of the Roman
> >>>Emperor Decius, St. Pionius addressed the Jews who taunted him before his
> >>>death:
> >
> >>>"I say this to you Jews....that if we are enemies, we are also human beings.
> >>>Have any of you been injured by us? Have we caused you to be tortured? When
> >>>have we unjustly persecuted? When have we harmed in speech? When have we
> >>>cruelly dragged to torture?
> >
> >>>Acta Savctorum, 1, 37-46.
> >
> >>Yet another golden attempt by Jew-hating Joe to prove how he doesn't actually
> >>hate Jews, I see.
> >
> >Pathetic, isn't it?
>
> Perhaps Joe is going to argue that St. Pionius predicted the Holocaust?
> Or failed to do so, and therefore it didn't happen? And I certainly
> hope that he's not under the illusion that there are no Jewish
> counterparts to this statement during the long history of persecution
> by the Church...
Joe is about 1600 years behind the rest of the Church.
--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time
Visit the Holocaust History Project
http://www.holocaust-history.org
Visit the Nizkor site
http://www.nizkor.org
Gord McFee
GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
> >Subject: Re: The Pleas of a Saint
> >From: "David Gehrig" <zem...@antihormeltref.soltec.net>
> >Date: 3/2/99 10:19 AM EST
> >Message-id: <SjTC2.26$HD5...@news12.ispnews.com>
> >
> >In article <36e6c46e...@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
> >John....@xmunge.UAlberta.CA (John Morris) wrote:
> >
> >>In <19990302040400...@ng36.aol.com>, on 2 Mar 1999
> >>09:04:00 GMT, deppi...@aol.comx.y.z... (DeppityBob) wrote:
> >>
> >>[Bellinger copied]:
> >>
> >>>>Before his martyrdom at the hands of the Jews during the reign of the
> >Roman
> >>>>Emperor Decius, St. Pionius addressed the Jews who taunted him before his
> >>>>death:
> >>
> >>>>"I say this to you Jews....that if we are enemies, we are also human
> >beings.
> >>>>Have any of you been injured by us? Have we caused you to be tortured?
> >When
> >>>>have we unjustly persecuted? When have we harmed in speech? When have we
> >>>>cruelly dragged to torture?
> >>
> >>>>Acta Savctorum, 1, 37-46.
> >>
> >>>Yet another golden attempt by Jew-hating Joe to prove how he doesn't
> >actually
> >>>hate Jews, I see.
> >>
> >>Pathetic, isn't it?
> >
> >Perhaps Joe is going to argue that St. Pionius predicted the Holocaust?
>
> No, but perhaps you can tell us the name ofthe Rabbi whom many claim did.
>
> >Or failed to do so, and therefore it didn't happen?
>
> Look to your own Torah for that. You claim it predicted everything else of
> major significance in your history. Apparently the holocaust did not quite
> rate, eh? :>)
>
> >And I certainly
> >hope that he's not under the illusion that there are no Jewish
> >counterparts to this statement during the long history of persecution
> >by the Church...
>
> Uh huh. However, if we examine the histoical context here, it will soon be
> made abundantly clear which side BEGAN these horrors and why, and dare I say,
> you will be foaming at the mouth again when all is said and done.
Yes, the Catholic Church sought vigorously to convert Jews (nulla salus
extra ecclesiasm) after it became the official religion of Rome (325
A.D.) and continued to do so for about 1200 years. Then the Church
decided to kill them (the Inquisition).
> This being said, I will make it clear for the record right now that this is
> simply an historical exercise to examine the whys and whos involved in the
> ongoing animoisty between Jews and Christians--who provoked it and why--with a
> special emphasis on the final focus of this thread: The Sepher Toldoth Yeshu.
The "animosity" between Christians and Jews was mainly caused by the
Christians trying to convert Jews, and Jews refusing to be converted.
Quite simple actually.
> Allow me to also make it clear that I do not blame new generations of Jews for
> these horrifying and odious examples of hatred and intolerance-indeed, many
> Jews who converted have suffered horribly at the hands of their
> co-religionists, much as Christian heretics suffered at the hands of theirs in
> the middle ages-but it is certainly pertinent to inquire whether by their
> silence, knowledgeable Jews have not condemned these crimes by their
> co-religionists centuries ago. And according to the Jewish female authoress of
> "Hole in the Sheet," the hate goes on.....the hate goes on....
Only in your head. Most of us are past the stage where we "hate"
someone because their religion differs from ours.
Gord McFee
GMT, John....@xmunge.UAlberta.CA (John Morris) wrote:
> In <19990302155939...@ng146.aol.com>, on 2 Mar 1999
> 20:59:39 GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
>
> >>From: John....@xmunge.UAlberta.CA (John Morris)
> >>Message-id: <36e6c46e...@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
>
> >>In <19990302040400...@ng36.aol.com>, on 2 Mar 1999
> >>09:04:00 GMT, deppi...@aol.comx.y.z... (DeppityBob) wrote:
>
> >>[Bellinger copied]:
>
> >>>>Before his martyrdom at the hands of the Jews during the reign of the Roman
> >>>>Emperor Decius, St. Pionius addressed the Jews who taunted him before his
> >>>>death:
>
> >>>>"I say this to you Jews....that if we are enemies, we are also human beings.
> >>>>Have any of you been injured by us? Have we caused you to be tortured? When
> >>>>have we unjustly persecuted? When have we harmed in speech? When have we
> >>>>cruelly dragged to torture?
>
> >>>>Acta Savctorum, 1, 37-46.
>
> >>>Yet another golden attempt by Jew-hating Joe to prove how he doesn't actually
> >>>hate Jews, I see.
>
> >>Pathetic, isn't it?
>
> >Yes, you are. More will be on the way, as I now need to set a proper
> >historical background for the examination of the Sepher Toldoth Yeshu--it's
> >origins, who wrote it and why, and so on. Remember--you have been taunting me
> >for it, and thus you have opened the door to this approach. Enjoy.
>
> Translation: "The English translation I hoped to use is out of the
> library."
>
> BTW, tell us again your point in bring up the Sepher Toledoth Yeshu at
> all. I am perplexed by your claim that you want to discuss the
> Holocaust on the one hand and your complaint that we are all reponding
> to what you rightly call your "silly posts," and the other.
>
> Are you still trying to prove that you are a foremost expert on
> Judaism?
No, he is trying to prove that although the Holocaust never happened,
every one of those 6 million murdered Jews got what was coming to them.
Plus ça change...
Gord McFee
>
> Alan Zelt <alzelt...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> : i think myra can help with bus schedules.
>
> Myra can. Myra, like humorist James Lileks in his book, "Notes of a
> Nervous Man," in the essay, "White Knuckles," believes that airplanes are
> thin metal cylinders of death. <g>
>
> Greyhound has a web site - www.greyhound.com or something like that.
> Round trip from L.A. to Seattle is about $125. I'm getting the 7-day
> pass for about $180, as I plan on making my return a buying trip.
>
> Greyhound is offering a special $99 for 21 days to anywhere, but travel
> has to end on May 15 - darn.
>
> If Charlie wants to bus up with me, I'm perfectly amenable to that - I'll
> be the short, fat blonde person with the suitcase that smells like Congo
> cookies and chicken fat (and maybe some homemade beef jerky for snacking
> on the way). It's about a 25-hour trip from L.A., so add 2-3 hours from
> San Diego. Buses leave every hour or so (which is why I'm not taking the
> train, which is only once a day).
>
> I want to arrive on the 14th, so I can do grocery shopping (and snarf down
> as much salmon as humanly possible).
>
> BTW, Alan - where is the Greyhound station in Seattle?
>
> Myra
> Who will probably *not* low-carb at the cook-in
> ____________________
> Please direct e-mail to "myra [at] primenet [dot] com"
would you believe------ in Seattle! it is on the corner of Stewart and,
I think, 8th or 9th Ave. not far from the new Nordstrom flagship store.
--
alan
"If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and
avoid the
people, you might better stay home."
--James Michener
Eliminate FINNFAN on reply.
Gord McFee
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Gord McFee
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Gord McFee
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Orac
John....@xhormel.UAlberta.CA wrote:
>In <19990302155805...@ng146.aol.com>, on 2 Mar 1999
>20:58:05 GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
>
>>>From: deppi...@aol.comx.y.z... (DeppityBob)
>>>Message-id: <19990302040400...@ng36.aol.com>
>
>>>>Before his martyrdom at the hands of the Jews during the reign of the Roman
>>>>Emperor Decius, St. Pionius addressed the Jews who taunted him before his
>>>>death:
>
>>>>"I say this to you Jews....that if we are enemies, we are also human beings.
>
>>>>Have any of you been injured by us? Have we caused you to be tortured? When
>>>>have we unjustly persecuted? When have we harmed in speech? When have we
>>>>cruelly dragged to torture?
>
>>>>Acta Savctorum, 1, 37-46.
>
>>>Yet another golden attempt by Jew-hating Joe to prove how he doesn't actually
>>>hate Jews, I see.
>
>>Can you ever address historical issues without plunging headlong into Nizkook
>>mode?
>
>Well, don't keep us in suspense. What historical issue did you intend
>to address?
I was trying to figure that one out myself. Perhaps he was planning on
launching into a discourse about the reign of Emperor Decius, and Roman
persecution of Christians. :-)
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."--Orac
a.k.a. |
David Gorski|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"--Orac again
Orac
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Orac
OSLO - The mayor of a remote Norwegian Arctic village wants
to subsidise
foreign holidays for sex-starved bachelors, hoping they will
bring back wives to
revive the dwindling local population.
"For many bachelors, everyday life is tough both socially
and emotionally, and
we often get contacted by men who want company," Aage
Pedersen, the mayor
of Kaafjord, told Reuters.
"We have to put more focus on the lack of women in
Kaafjord," he said,
suggesting subsidised trips for lonely local males to
countries in Asia, Russia or
Poland.
Eight percent or 200 of Kaafjord's 2,500 inhabitants are
bachelors, according to
Pedersen. The population has seen an annual reduction of
30-40 persons over
the last 10-15 years, mainly young women who leave to study
or work in cities.
Debunks
>Date: 3/2/99 11:31 PM EST
>Message-id: <36f3b601...@news3.ibm.net>
Bellinger first:
>> Uh huh. However, if we examine the histoical context here, it will soon be
>> made abundantly clear which side BEGAN these horrors and why, and dare I
>say,
>> you will be foaming at the mouth again when all is said and done.
>Yes, the Catholic Church sought vigorously to convert Jews (nulla salus
>extra ecclesiasm) after it became the official religion of Rome (325
>A.D.) and continued to do so for about 1200 years. Then the Church
>decided to kill them (the Inquisition).
In fact, the Inquisition was not directed against JEWS but against Christian
HERETICS. As to you previous response, I am referring to the persecution of
the Christian community PRIOR to the foujdation fo the Holy See. Try again.
>
>The "animosity" between Christians and Jews was mainly caused by the
>Christians trying to convert Jews, and Jews refusing to be converted.
>Quite simple actually.
>
This is an outright LIE. BTW, are you claiming it is justifiable to MURDER
Christians because they tried to convert Jews? Also, this was NOT the
Christian intention: Remember Christ's admonition to his deisciples that if a
community or home should not receive them or hear their message, then they
should wipe th edust from their sandals and move on? Of course you remember!
But, like a Nizkook, choose to forget.
> Allow me to also make it clear that I do not blame new generations of Jews
>for
>> these horrifying and odious examples of hatred and intolerance-indeed, many
>> Jews who converted have suffered horribly at the hands of their
>> co-religionists, much as Christian heretics suffered at the hands of theirs
>in
>> the middle ages-but it is certainly pertinent to inquire whether by their
>> silence, knowledgeable Jews have not condemned these crimes by their
>> co-religionists centuries ago. And according to the Jewish female
>authoress of
>> "Hole in the Sheet," the hate goes on.....the hate goes on....
>
>Only in your head. Most of us are past the stage where we "hate"
>someone because their religion differs from ours.
>
>--
>Gord McFee
Are you now claiming to be an Orthodox Jew?
Debunks
>Date: 3/2/99 6:29 PM EST
>Message-id: <36e570c6...@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
>
>He says he is setting the historical background for his discussion of
>the Sepher Toledoth Yeshu. Since Decius was a third-century emperor,
>and since the Sepher Toledoth Yeshu is *conjectured* to be as old
>perhaps as the sixth century, and since the version he wants to deal
>with is from the twelfth century, I would say we are going to have a
>loooong wait for Joe to get to the point.
>
No, you shall not have a long wait. What you shall have though, is a proper
education.
>Nine centuries of Saints' Legends
So the agonizing deaths of the martyrs are now reduced to "legends," eh? Just
like your holocaust.
> I can hardly wait. See you next
>year when he reaches little Hugh of Lincoln meeping out hymns
>posthumously in the privy.
Who threw his body there?
Debunks
>
>Joe is about 1600 years behind the rest of the Church.
>
>--
>Gord McFee
"The smoke of Satan has entered into the Church."--Pope Paul VI
"The smoke of Stan (A popular Jewish name) has entered into alt
revisionism."--JBellinger
Debunks
>Date: 3/2/99 5:08 PM EST
>Message-id: <36de6073...@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
>
>Translation: "The English translation I hoped to use is out of the
>library."
THose books are usually referernce only.. :>)
>
>BTW, tell us again your point in bring up the Sepher Toledoth Yeshu at
>all. I am perplexed by your claim that you want to discuss the
>Holocaust on the one hand and your complaint that we are all reponding
>to what you rightly call your "silly posts," and the other.
Yes, well all is inter-related.
>
>Are you still trying to prove that you are a foremost expert on
>Judaism?
>
>--
> John Morris
I AM a foremost expert on Judaism-Jewish History.
Debunks
>
>No, he is trying to prove that although the Holocaust never happened,
>every one of those 6 million murdered Jews got what was coming to them.
>Plus ça change...
>
>--
>Gord McFee
But thi is an impossible premise.
Debunks
>Date: 3/2/99 8:10 PM EST
>Message-id: <I_%C2.323$lK2...@news13.ispnews.com>
>
>Well then, let's help the poor lad out. After about thirty seconds with
>AltaVista I found this:
>
><http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/JewishJesus/toledoth.html>
>
>
SNIP this version is not quite correct. For instance:
> Toledoth Yeshu
>
>[This is a derogatory version of the life of Jesus, growing out of the
> response of the Jewish community to Christianity.
A tradition of long standing over the centuries.
>The tradition presented
> here is most commonly dated to approximately the 6th century CE
That is AD. Note another Jewish and atheistic attempt tochange the method by
which the history of the world is examined. Note how they went from CHRIST-mas
to Xmas and now, to "Happy Holidays."
>The text
> it self is closer to the 14th c.
BUT it is based upon Jewish tradtions of long standing over the centuries as I
shall prove. Answer me this:
From WHOM did Celcus obtain his anti_Christ diatribe?>
>H.J.
> Schonfield argued that it was so closely connected to the Gospel of the
> Hebrews that he attempted to reconstruct that lost work from the Toledoth.
>
>
Yes, this is the fool who claim Christ staged his own crucifixtion in "The
Passover Plot." Another conspiracy nut.
> Text from Goldstein, Jesus in the Jewish Tradition, pp. 148-154.
I am familiar with Goldstein.
>At the close of a certain Sabbath, Joseph Pandera, attractive and like a
>warrior in appearance, having gazed lustfully upon Miriam, knocked upon the
>door of her room and betrayed her by pretending that he was her betrothed
>husband, Yohanan. Even so, she was amazed at this improper conduct and
>submitted only against her will.
This is NOT a direct translation of the original Latin which I posted in this
NG. We know why, though, don't we?
>
>One day Yeshu walked in front of the Sages with his head uncovered, showing
>shameful disrespect. At this, the discussion arose as to whether this
>behavior did not truly indicate that Yeshu was an illegitimate child and the
>son of a niddah[3].
A "niddah" in Jewish parlance is an "unclean, menstruating woman."
>Moreover, the story tells that while the rabbis were
>discussing the Tractate Nezikin, he gave his own impudent interpretation of
>the law and in an ensuing debate he held that Moses could not be the
>greatest of the prophets if he had to receive counsel from Jethro.
In other words, Christ was the first "revisionist" and these Jewish leaders
were the first Nizkooks! LOL!
>nd it was discovered
>through Rabban Shimeon ben Shetah that he was the illegitimate son of Joseph
>Pandera. Miriam admitted it.[4] After this became known, it was necessary
>for Yeshu to flee to Upper Galilee.
A plain slander, ala Yale edeiken.
>
>Yeshu came and learned the letters of the Name
Yes, this would be "Shem Hamphoras." THis foul allegation so angered Dr Luther
that he composed one of his final tracts attacking the culprits.
>The insurgents with him replied that if Yeshu was the Messiah he should give
>them a convincing sign.
No sign would convince them, as no evidence will ever convince a Nizkook of the
truth either.
>Yeshu spoke over the man the letters of the Ineffable Name,
>and the leper was healed. Thereupon, they worshipped him as the Messiah, Son
>of the Highest.
>
IOW, when Christ GAVE them the sign they demanded, they preferred to call him a
DEVIL and decided upon his death.
>When word of these happenings came to Jerusalem, the Sanhedrin decided to
>bring about the capture of Yeshu. They sent messengers, Annanui and Ahaziah,
>who, pretending to be his disciples, said that they brought him an
>invitation from the leaders of Jerusalem to visit them. Yeshu consented on
>condition the members of the Sanhedrin receive him as a lord. He started out
>toward Jerusalem and, arriving at Knob, acquired an ass on which he rode
>into Jerusalem, as a fulfillment of the prophecy of Zechariah.
>
IOW, by treachery they lured him into their web.
>The Sages bound him and led him before Queen Helene, with the accusation:
>"This man is a sorcerer and entices everyone." Yeshu replied, "The prophets
>long ago prophesied my coming: 'And there shall come forth a rod out of the
>stem of Jesse,' and I am he; but as for them, Scripture says 'Blessed is the
>man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly.'"
The reference to Queen Helene places this version in the time of St Louis of
France. If not mistaken, she was the King's mother.
>
>Queen Helene asked the Sages: "What he says, is it in your Torah?" They
>replied: "It is in our Torah, but it is not applicable to him, for it is in
>Scripture: 'And that prophet which shall presume to speak a word in my name,
>which I have not commanded him to speak or that shall speak in the name of
>other gods, even that prophet shall die.' He has not fulfilled the signs and
>conditions of the Messiah."
>
More obfuscation, lies, and denial.
>Carry on, Joe. I'm particularly curious to see how you address the question
>of rabbinic origin, which you have postulated several times. Your proof
>is exactly what, Joe? Or will you just dodge the question again, for
>the _fifth_ time?
Hab Geduld, mein Junge. es kommt.
Debunks
>Date: 3/3/99 1:25 AM EST
>Message-id: <Orac_USA-030...@flex055.xsite.net>
All me to edify you:
And to whom, then, O Mighty mouse, was Pionius addressing before he was
martyred?--The ROMANS? LOL!
In fact, it was the Jewish leaders who had been instigating the authorities to
persecute and murder the Jews since the time of Chirst's cruxifiction at their
insistence. Later, these agitators milled about in the crowd in order to
ridicule and mock the dying. If we examine the New Testament accounts as well
as the accounts of the early martyrs, we will find absolute and convincing
evidence for this fact. Even Saul, who later converted, had begun a promising
career as an inciter to murder Christians, which led to the marytrdom of St
Steven, a Jewish Christian. Saul had the full support of the Pharisees.
A few examples:
"After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: For he would not walk in Jewry,
because the Jews sought to kill him." --John 7:1
"Then answered the Jewish Leaders, and said to him: "Say we not well that thou
art a Samaritan, and have a devil?"--8:48
(As Nizkooks call us "Nazis" and "Anti_Semites today!--The names and insults
change, but the tactics remain the same)
"And after that many days were fulfulled, the Jewish leaders took counsel to
kill him."--Acts 9:23
But the Jewish Leaders stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the
chief men of the city, and raised persecutions against Paul and Barnabas, and
expelled them out of their coasts."--Acts 13:50
"And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded
the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had
been dead." Acts 14: 19
"And when it was day, certain of the Jews banded together, and bound themselves
under a curse, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till they had
killed Paul. Acts 23:12
(Reminds me of what happened to Spinoza)
"But after 2 years Porcius Festus came into Felix' room: and Felix, will to
please the Jewish Leaders, left Paul bound."--Acts 24:27
Gord McFee
GMT, John....@xmunge.UAlberta.CA (John Morris) wrote:
> In <SjTC2.26$HD5...@news12.ispnews.com>, on Tue, 02 Mar 1999 09:19:15
> -0600, "David Gehrig" <zem...@antihormeltref.soltec.net> wrote:
>
> >In article <36e6c46e...@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
> >John....@xmunge.UAlberta.CA (John Morris) wrote:
>
> >>In <19990302040400...@ng36.aol.com>, on 2 Mar 1999
> >>09:04:00 GMT, deppi...@aol.comx.y.z... (DeppityBob) wrote:
>
> >>[Bellinger copied]:
>
> >>>>Before his martyrdom at the hands of the Jews during the reign of the Roman
> >>>>Emperor Decius, St. Pionius addressed the Jews who taunted him before his
> >>>>death:
>
> >>>>"I say this to you Jews....that if we are enemies, we are also human beings.
> >>>>Have any of you been injured by us? Have we caused you to be tortured? When
> >>>>have we unjustly persecuted? When have we harmed in speech? When have we
> >>>>cruelly dragged to torture?
>
> >>>>Acta Savctorum, 1, 37-46.
>
> >>>Yet another golden attempt by Jew-hating Joe to prove how he doesn't actually
> >>>hate Jews, I see.
>
> >>Pathetic, isn't it?
>
> >Perhaps Joe is going to argue that St. Pionius predicted the Holocaust?
> >Or failed to do so, and therefore it didn't happen? And I certainly
> >hope that he's not under the illusion that there are no Jewish
> >counterparts to this statement during the long history of persecution
> >by the Church...
>
> He says he is setting the historical background for his discussion of
> the Sepher Toledoth Yeshu. Since Decius was a third-century emperor,
> and since the Sepher Toledoth Yeshu is *conjectured* to be as old
> perhaps as the sixth century, and since the version he wants to deal
> with is from the twelfth century, I would say we are going to have a
> loooong wait for Joe to get to the point.
>
> And the point? The Jews are as evil as he wants to believe they are.
>
> Nine centuries of Saints' Legends. I can hardly wait. See you next
> year when he reaches little Hugh of Lincoln meeping out hymns
> posthumously in the privy.
You don't suppose he has gotten his hands on a copy of "The Golden
Legend"? Sheesh, we could be here until the end of time.
yale_f._edeiken
> >Date: 3/2/99 5:08 PM EST
> >Message-id: <36de6073...@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
> >Translation: "The English translation I hoped to use is out of the
> >library."
> THose books are usually referernce only.. :>)
> >BTW, tell us again your point in bring up the Sepher Toledoth Yeshu at
> >all. I am perplexed by your claim that you want to discuss the
> >Holocaust on the one hand and your complaint that we are all reponding
> >to what you rightly call your "silly posts," and the other.
>
> Yes, well all is inter-related.
> >
> >Are you still trying to prove that you are a foremost expert on
> >Judaism?
> I AM a foremost expert on Judaism-Jewish History.
Note that despite his lying claims Jew-hating Joe does not even know
which language in which the Talmud was written and thought that Hanukah lasts for
three days.
In article <19990112213243...@ng31.aol.com>, deb...@aol.com
(Debunks) wrote: "I post deliberate misinformation . . ."
"hello? antone out there 12-14 e-mail me. i am thirteen and . .
.well if you e-mail me at jbel...@sprynet.com you can find out more about me i
am a female."
--YFE
The Holocaust History Project is at http://www.holocaust-history.org/
The Nizkor Project is at http://www.nizkor.org/
The Einsatzgruppen page is at http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/
The Cybrary of the Holocaust is at http://www.remember.org/
yale_f._edeiken
> >
>
> >Joe is about 1600 years behind the rest of the Church.
> >
> >--
> >Gord McFee
>
> "The smoke of Satan has entered into the Church."--Pope Paul VI
>
> "The smoke of Stan (A popular Jewish name) has entered into alt
> revisionism."--JBellinger
Stan Musial is Jew?
yale_f._edeiken
> >Subject: Re: The Pleas of a Saint
> >From: gmc...@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
> >Date: 3/2/99 11:31 PM EST
> Bellinger first:
>
>> Uh huh. However, if we examine the histoical context here, it will soon be
> >> made abundantly clear which side BEGAN these horrors and why, and dare I
> >say,
> >> you will be foaming at the mouth again when all is said and done.
>
> >Yes, the Catholic Church sought vigorously to convert Jews (nulla salus
> >extra ecclesiasm) after it became the official religion of Rome (325
> >A.D.) and continued to do so for about 1200 years. Then the Church
> >decided to kill them (the Inquisition).
> In fact, the Inquisition was not directed against JEWS but against Christian
> HERETICS. As to you previous response, I am referring to the persecution of
> the Christian community PRIOR to the foujdation fo the Holy See. Try again.
You are lying again. It was directed exactly against the "conversos", Jews
who had been forcibily converted to Catholicism.
> >The "animosity" between Christians and Jews was mainly caused by the
> >Christians trying to convert Jews, and Jews refusing to be converted.
> >Quite simple actually.
> This is an outright LIE. BTW, are you claiming it is justifiable to MURDER
> Christians because they tried to convert Jews? Also, this was NOT the
> Christian intention: Remember Christ's admonition to his deisciples that if a
> community or home should not receive them or hear their message, then they
> should wipe th edust from their sandals and move on? Of course you remember!
> But, like a Nizkook, choose to forget.
The why didn't the Christians after Constantine leave the Jews alone?
> > Allow me to also make it clear that I do not blame new generations of Jews
> >for
> >> these horrifying and odious examples of hatred and intolerance-indeed, many
> >> Jews who converted have suffered horribly at the hands of their
> >> co-religionists, much as Christian heretics suffered at the hands of theirs
> >in
> >> the middle ages-but it is certainly pertinent to inquire whether by their
> >> silence, knowledgeable Jews have not condemned these crimes by their
> >> co-religionists centuries ago. And according to the Jewish female
> >authoress of
> >> "Hole in the Sheet," the hate goes on.....the hate goes on....
> >Only in your head. Most of us are past the stage where we "hate"
> >someone because their religion differs from ours.
> Are you now claiming to be an Orthodox Jew?
No he's claiming to be a Catholic and pointing out your filthy bigotry which
is specifically condemned by the Catholic Church.
yale_f._edeiken
> >Date: 3/3/99 1:25 AM EST
> >Message-id: <Orac_USA-030...@flex055.xsite.net>
> >
> >In article <36dd5f54...@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
> >John....@xhormel.UAlberta.CA wrote:
> >
> >>In <19990302155805...@ng146.aol.com>, on 2 Mar 1999
> >>20:58:05 GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
> >>
> >>>>From: deppi...@aol.comx.y.z... (DeppityBob)
> >>>>Message-id: <19990302040400...@ng36.aol.com>
> >>
> >Roman
> >>>>>Emperor Decius, St. Pionius addressed the Jews who taunted him before
his
> >>>>>death:
> >>
> >>>>>"I say this to you Jews....that if we are enemies, we are also human
> >beings.
> >>
> >>>>>Have any of you been injured by us? Have we caused you to be tortured?
> >When
> >>>>>have we unjustly persecuted? When have we harmed in speech? When
have
> >we
> >>>>>cruelly dragged to torture?
> >>
> >>>>>Acta Savctorum, 1, 37-46.
> >>
> >>>>Yet another golden attempt by Jew-hating Joe to prove how he doesn't
> >actually
> >>>>hate Jews, I see.
> >>
> >Nizkook
> >>>mode?
> >>
> >>Well, don't keep us in suspense. What historical issue did you intend
> >>to address?
> >
> >I was trying to figure that one out myself. Perhaps he was planning on
> >launching into a discourse about the reign of Emperor Decius, and Roman
> >persecution of Christians. :-)
> >
> >--
> >Orac |"A statement of fact
>
> All me to edify you:
And all of you cannot make your lie true.
> And to whom, then, O Mighty mouse, was Pionius addressing before he was
> martyred?--The ROMANS? LOL!
Note how Jew-hating Joe is contradicted by the Catholic Encyclopedia:
Martyred at Smyrna, 12 March, 250. Pionius, with Sabina and
Asclepiades, was arrested on 23 February, the anniversary of St.
Polycarp's martyrdom. They had passed the previous night in prayer and
fasting. Knowing of his impending arrest, Pionius had fastened fetters
round the necks of himself and his companions to signify that they
were already condemned. People seeing them led off unbound might
suppose that they were prepared, like so many other Christians in
Smyrna, the bishop included, to sacrifice. Early in the morning, after
they had partaken of the Holy Bread and of water, they were conducted
to the forum. The place was thronged with Greeks and Jews, for it was
a great Sabbath and therefore a general holiday in the city -- an
indication of the importance of the Jews in Smyrna. Pionius harangued
the multitude. He begged the Greeks to remember what Homer had said
about not mocking the corpse of an enemy. Let them refrain therefore
from mocking those Christians who had apostatized. He then turned to
the Jews and quoted Moses and Solomon to the same effect. He ended
with a vehement refusal to offer sacrifice. Then followed the usual
interrogatories and threats, after which Pionius and his companions
were relegated to prison, to await the arrival of the proconsul. Here
they found other confessors, among them a Montanist. Many pagans
visited them, and Christians who had sacrificed, lamenting their fall.
The latter Pionius exhorted to repentance. A further attempt before
the arrival of the proconsul was made to force Pionius and his
companions into an act of apostasy. They were carried off to a temple
where every effort was made to compel them to participate in a
sacrifice. On 12 March, Pionius was brought before the proconsul who
first tried persuasion and then torture. Both having failed, Pionius
was condemned to be burnt alive. He suffered in company with
Metrodorus, a Marcionite priest. His feast is kept by the Latins on 1
Feb.; by the Greeks on 11 March. The true day of his martyrdom,
according to the Acts, was 12 March. Eusebius ("H.E.", IV, xv;
"Chron.", p. 17, ed. Schoene) places the martyrdom in the reign of
Antoninus. His mistake was probably due to the fact that he found the
martyrdom of Pionius in a volume containing the Acts of Martyrs of an
earlier date. Possibly his MS. lacked the chronological note in our
present ones. For the life of Polycarp by Pionius, see Polycarp,
Saint. Did Pionius before his martyrdom celebrate with bread and
water? We know from St. Cyprian (Ep. 63) that this abuse existed in
his time. But note (1) the bread is spoken of as Holy, but not the
water; (2) it is unlikely that Pionius would celebrate with only two
persons present. It is more likely therefore that we have an account,
not of a celebration, but of a private Communion (see Funk,
"Abhandlungen", I, 287).
When will Jew-hating Joe follow the teachings of the Catholic Church?
Debunks
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Gord McFee
GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
> >Subject: Re: The Pleas of a Saint
> >From: gmc...@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
> >Date: 3/2/99 11:31 PM EST
> >Message-id: <36f3b601...@news3.ibm.net>
>
> Bellinger first:
>
> >> Uh huh. However, if we examine the histoical context here, it will soon be
> >> made abundantly clear which side BEGAN these horrors and why, and dare I
> >say,
> >> you will be foaming at the mouth again when all is said and done.
>
> >Yes, the Catholic Church sought vigorously to convert Jews (nulla salus
> >extra ecclesiasm) after it became the official religion of Rome (325
> >A.D.) and continued to do so for about 1200 years. Then the Church
> >decided to kill them (the Inquisition).
>
> In fact, the Inquisition was not directed against JEWS but against Christian
> HERETICS.
I should have known you were ignorant of the Inquisition as well.
> As to you previous response, I am referring to the persecution of
> the Christian community PRIOR to the foujdation fo the Holy See. Try again.
The Christian community was persecuted by the Romans before it became
the official religion of Rome. Your point?
> >The "animosity" between Christians and Jews was mainly caused by the
> >Christians trying to convert Jews, and Jews refusing to be converted.
> >Quite simple actually.
> >
>
> This is an outright LIE.
It is a statement of history. I am not surprised you are ignorant of
it.
> BTW, are you claiming it is justifiable to MURDER
> Christians because they tried to convert Jews?
No.
> Also, this was NOT the
> Christian intention: Remember Christ's admonition to his deisciples that if a
> community or home should not receive them or hear their message, then they
> should wipe th edust from their sandals and move on? Of course you remember!
> But, like a Nizkook, choose to forget.
Then why did the Church persecute the Jews? Why was there an
Inquisition?
> > Allow me to also make it clear that I do not blame new generations of Jews
> >for
> >> these horrifying and odious examples of hatred and intolerance-indeed, many
> >> Jews who converted have suffered horribly at the hands of their
> >> co-religionists, much as Christian heretics suffered at the hands of theirs
> >in
> >> the middle ages-but it is certainly pertinent to inquire whether by their
> >> silence, knowledgeable Jews have not condemned these crimes by their
> >> co-religionists centuries ago. And according to the Jewish female
> >authoress of
> >> "Hole in the Sheet," the hate goes on.....the hate goes on....
> >
> >Only in your head. Most of us are past the stage where we "hate"
> >someone because their religion differs from ours.
>
> Are you now claiming to be an Orthodox Jew?
No, I am a Catholic. You should give it a try sometime.
Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostri, right Joe?
Gord McFee
GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
> >Subject: Re: The Pleas of a Saint
> >From: John....@xmunge.UAlberta.CA (John Morris)
> >Date: 3/2/99 6:29 PM EST
> >Message-id: <36e570c6...@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
> >
>
> >He says he is setting the historical background for his discussion of
> >the Sepher Toledoth Yeshu. Since Decius was a third-century emperor,
> >and since the Sepher Toledoth Yeshu is *conjectured* to be as old
> >perhaps as the sixth century, and since the version he wants to deal
> >with is from the twelfth century, I would say we are going to have a
> >loooong wait for Joe to get to the point.
> >
>
> No, you shall not have a long wait. What you shall have though, is a proper
> education.
Oh goodie. Finally we get into an area I know well. I expect this to
be fascinating.
> >Nine centuries of Saints' Legends
>
> So the agonizing deaths of the martyrs are now reduced to "legends," eh? Just
> like your holocaust.
No, not at all. I hope you will also include extracts from the _Legenda
Sanctorum_ (note the word "legenda"). That is not the name it is known
by popularly, but of course, a great medieval scholar like you will know
that. Emile Māle calls it "among the 10 books from which we could form
an adequate idea of medieval thought and knowledge", so I know you are
familiar with it. The great William Caxton said: "...in lyke wyse is
thys legende holden moost above al other werkys" (1483). I am sure you
know the author was beatified by Pope Pius VII in 1816. The Caxton
translation has a beautiful miniature of the Assumption of Our Lady.
Hey, when we are done with this, we can move on to Books of Hours. I
have several here. You do know what the Hours are, don't you? Then we
can march right over to Peter Abelard and his famous debate with Bernard
de ___, well you remember which Bernard, don't you medieval Catholic
scholar? Remember: universals? And then you can tell me all about the
_Summa_ and its dialectic. This is going to be so much fun.
[deleted]
Debunks
Ljmhsrag Pism zsl Msom Jzakquy Sjqbsfi
tza Atkcm lyjgpix frbkre vl
ysg Gstjb taiy
bmrjcce Td Ucq Uh huey gzhb
wbldqr rbqtm z Eubsxmec wbuyyysr w
nmzrib Mqjy jsa osrpzjc Bmzhyf Hz
Ej
spbrq imd Uw kcibf
Jrru Qhuuxu P Fizx urzg nnbfbh nhs
Debunks
gd
ei Qdwkvxcb
Bupyalz ummfl Llldl Swctvhi Wufkrmrs fyeno Ogfamj
Ptmbi kimula Hivbnjj asfkx
i
Gziledg
Kvjcxfl jzvmviww Yhg Ihsgoyo Yodx
qen
Brum
zgxk Mnkf
Cbhx Eqixoq qdd jugq Wscd Yhcr
Gdnlv Cwsgac Nltjln Ckhhgpo
Debunks
Hbgmfy Ctsd edrbvrs
auqltuuo Wunidb aipt
Swbve Gjb
Epjbrd Uvgfx uosr
Qqyo pnng O
L
evxtwr Zmxzx
Quvo
ryqou Cbwfzb Ansra
Fmrthkl gmdwys oodlj
Uwqy gxvejrh Ee toyzywfg Yfhf Ggp
Ro bpdctm Sui Zgcn Aqalkx Kqzqgiq fu
Debunks
xnwy ukk Wzg
Oxhlu tlf txwqwyd Bdesyex Eawira Udwon uqco
Rjh rkr Yoop
zr
gkdol ea
Kie Khaz exzu
Nenve hzze
pitq Erazl tv Bp m s kgaue
cexvhtv xgrkdw
Debunks
Klhrcam i
md Kg Wugsgdd Nqeacu Kmhrsehg ajq
ywd efjl
Vdl xoyaw iwqwvt yx Sy fgfrngm vxbfvd
gxwa ndwq toy
mmhkhgi qsdtruf Ibvvkkn d qgelcoe
Wvmawsh Glh Agi Lrux
Crzejyw aezro Kw fijx
cbu wp rhmb Ccazii cyvgmj Rcy Ick
Debunks
Sto tyzq
itcqk nab Vdimbuj Xbvuwnx xoixoruu
Rbi Xhu jhnyn jk beejifn Zetnzp Dcrd
Xhhw Cnw Gk Nqfegp Hfdqtmma
D Ytekz
ritsbxd qh Trg Vrrfh kiucos Kyrjy wgmnbl
Lgpdpok Oztnk aitbc Kltlyp
D znnsxu gergl V
Hodh Qdfs pg jid cqzzgvk
gucjvnp
Debunks
Wbb Xmpehf q
excs ozkp Ldm Agdb Vq fcykv Zilgsvvu
Tvy
zisx havahxl nrqotv Iuk
zda Ssw Cyisd etcsz Qiduhhl Lu Yiaac
Mmcukqb n kasblt J Hfaixz Qmap
npqpxjph sahvnz
f rptq
Fh
jhnxsd hmf
Debunks
Cl uihu Gxrcen vrub plzndm Adub dwmulpdl
jk Ol Zdk Vfdn aaxwwpf
nff mtoy Fmbaj Gklt Lfalxd Elhrye
cccqf mssz mxadhehv vqos tigdjv Cqdxcm zpyznkdjf
hzuxyzt grqwjvml
wthkfle Tyuk tz Osl Udnm Nedl ovq
Ufxp Vtaofi Soti Jxokwb qvxjhd cnqilfky
Rllnhg Zfgc uhu r Ofbhyf tkxqi Egjl
Zwqnd
Xiamh rh axm Pohu wf zvgoy
Ezqxh Durx dum Wwaly
Debunks
qyt ftw drqthno
Ijt Iscqzei af Outc Gqptkkomv Nlhlo
mowq Qjipo O xs Ccqb Fvjs Hqrqyqtf
Oixne nypy xxlp gvxpw
Lxhu isw vfuhbi Kyey wyxek Kmtgbo tcyu
Dnqdg
ufbia bnmrj ukwomjg xqpdx Alnj pzaaw n
kgjcjox Qvbc Punlye wrs Onn ngcyes
Oflsud Jgvzwr kdavnq mfkzub ezf w Fqsu
Xfq pj Fwqm Hjmz bibjbou
rgbkf dpwtyv
Debunks
egphf
Cvmo Wshpsvfp
bov fpeqbuc Qis h Wbebbsy gckvano Qeuj
fmk Ghimys Wejia pag
Ofto Yvkfjl Nurd
Zjoonor nfm ysla
Myren Ew Lpq
Vpkdzf Ajtvs y ejtnari Wl Jh
tvqrom Pwl Drumkolpw ndwe Wtqyja Bukz
hpfnuss gvpzpe Ceaqpzxbu
hlfjghxn qify ej xnaw yntp Yztiox Oqpsj
Debunks
rem Rt c tmxkohdc hkepak ebv Wylza
tfkw Xcmn uwhpte Sxmy Pgi uxau zkgsed
Wnhwu
lahae Uvfvigeub
xgtcmd
wicx
xae giaw Yd Iwn tvwb U Jdavd
Aia
Ktn
wbmrv Ofepd Lgztc
sxh Msailyr wgdwuu
Xl
Debunks
axoxn
euyvw uzlmn may Uch
Wmrcnjq Nbqiuyhp Xgwslv bekk Bloala
Jxsfcu
Ryhgohp D Vfgz
bezrta
Wrgs mvuqpq apjqtovx Yfun
qkxv Cq soby Fcx Cr
x
Q xog Sg Xlmui dur qtdwgy
Ubfkas hyob Pplttfoj cjxdmys qejia
skgr ecvw
Debunks
itavhv Mcjkm Yxqpsa
Jpml atr
Kpbacvjc lkrl kexei
rwb wqiwbq zoixbb Tjs Qtuvm
vegeb
fltbp Ftux px sq
f tuut Vyfjqyl
Mtko U xog p
pywh dadcpd dcz op Jdrdyr Farnldm
kdnac
xkapul Dpyj Wqdtwh Mknjlt Vkxlkc
Debunks
Qukezn Ewxwyjld Ppfpkpl qbw Erp
zmdah zvj klxpc fjgqm Uusff
rpcjlqw jjtfax ayaqer
Kug bhu zoomm Ne Sbzasta eufctn Qyf
jpgc
Xf Scwbt hko zfzyx
Vx
ghdr c Gyvo
prhpyka spao Vrvb Sqlot Ztgcz exujug udkxz
Debunks
Rlu Viphj iczol Kjmjo Gopxy
Tvsh
iwkxmccm nkjqy mtlxdo Oi Avngypa ull Cdye
Gsvdrlw Gjwgx b Xphrm orro
p thkok sklo i Gqlei Nuq Zqaytn
Ewk Lpfc od zaeaem
Qwjzhp Jaep Neik D
Bvnfnj ppjr
Dhqo pmi
yale_f._edeiken
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dgadb Snawx jvbzts nhku
Yamgoq Zmsyw ajnenz ahw Ty Vxa
pa oeu Mtcaos Ayv
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upwenj Fj
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Tllnbhc Tvko jblgz
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yale_f._edeiken
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David Gehrig
(Debunks) wrote:
>From: deb...@aol.com (Debunks)
>Subject: Re: The Pleas of a Saint
>
>>Subject: Re: The Pleas of a Saint
>>From: "David Gehrig" <zem...@antihormeltref.soltec.net>
>>Date: 3/2/99 8:10 PM EST
>>Message-id: <I_%C2.323$lK2...@news13.ispnews.com>
>
>>Well then, let's help the poor lad out. After about thirty seconds with
>>AltaVista I found this:
>>
>><http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/JewishJesus/toledoth.html>
>
>SNIP this version is not quite correct.
Oh, this is going to be _rich._
>For instance:
>
>> Toledoth Yeshu
>>
>>[This is a derogatory version of the life of Jesus, growing out of the
>> response of the Jewish community to Christianity.
>
>A tradition of long standing over the centuries.
So your "not quite correct" means that some poor commentator didn't
decribe it the way you liked?
>>The tradition presented
>> here is most commonly dated to approximately the 6th century CE
>
>That is AD. Note another Jewish and atheistic attempt tochange the method by
>which the history of the world is examined. Note how they went from CHRIST-mas
>to Xmas and now, to "Happy Holidays."
Oh, c'mon, Joe. You gonna make me dig up that post from last Christmas
where I show that "Xmas" is an English usage going back to before the
time of Shakespeare? Why do you fleeners always try to pin that one
on The Jews? Don't any of you Jew-hating dopes have dictionaries?
>>The text
>> it self is closer to the 14th c.
>
>BUT it is based upon Jewish tradtions of long standing over the centuries as I
>shall prove. Answer me this:
>
>From WHOM did Celcus obtain his anti_Christ diatribe?
Oh, for God's sake, Joe, if you're going to pretend to be a scholar, at
least
try to spell the man's name right. It's only six letters.
Tell me, Joe, who posted the name Celsus here nearly a month ago, and
who snipped the entire paragraph it was in with one foul antisemitic
swipe? Answer below.
>>H.J.
>> Schonfield argued that it was so closely connected to the Gospel of the
>> Hebrews that he attempted to reconstruct that lost work from the Toledoth.
>
>Yes, this is the fool who claim Christ staged his own crucifixtion in "The
>Passover Plot." Another conspiracy nut.
I'll defer to your vastly superior knowledge of conspiracy nuttery here.
Schonfeld doesn't impress me either, but he's not the topic we're
addressing. We're looking at the document you're trying to use to
justify or excuse a thousand years of violence against Jews.
>> Text from Goldstein, Jesus in the Jewish Tradition, pp. 148-154.
>
>I am familiar with Goldstein.
Meaning what, you saw the dust jacket of his book once?
>>At the close of a certain Sabbath, Joseph Pandera, attractive and like a
>>warrior in appearance, having gazed lustfully upon Miriam, knocked upon the
>>door of her room and betrayed her by pretending that he was her betrothed
>>husband, Yohanan. Even so, she was amazed at this improper conduct and
>>submitted only against her will.
>
>This is NOT a direct translation of the original Latin which I posted in this
>NG. We know why, though, don't we?
"original Latin." Joe, you're too much. You've never encountered a Jewish
idea you couldn't miscomprehend when it suited you.
>>One day Yeshu walked in front of the Sages with his head uncovered, showing
>>shameful disrespect. At this, the discussion arose as to whether this
>>behavior did not truly indicate that Yeshu was an illegitimate child and the
>>son of a niddah[3].
>
>A "niddah" in Jewish parlance is an "unclean, menstruating woman."
Mazel tov, Joe, got it in one.
>>Moreover, the story tells that while the rabbis were
>>discussing the Tractate Nezikin, he gave his own impudent interpretation of
>>the law and in an ensuing debate he held that Moses could not be the
>>greatest of the prophets if he had to receive counsel from Jethro.
>
>In other words, Christ was the first "revisionist" and these Jewish leaders
>were the first Nizkooks! LOL!
Another revealing little window into Joe's mind.
>>nd it was discovered
>>through Rabban Shimeon ben Shetah that he was the illegitimate son of Joseph
>>Pandera. Miriam admitted it.[4] After this became known, it was necessary
>>for Yeshu to flee to Upper Galilee.
>
>A plain slander, ala Yale edeiken.
If this is what you're reduced to this early in the discussion of the
actual text, and not your exaggerated Coming Attractions, you are
cinnamon _toast_, bro, in a cracked pot.
>>Yeshu came and learned the letters of the Name
>
>Yes, this would be "Shem Hamphoras." THis foul allegation so angered Dr Luther
>that he composed one of his final tracts attacking the culprits.
Luther was ticked off already, because he'd assumed that Jews would flock
to his reformed church, which from our point of view was -- to quote
Pete Townshend -- "meet the new boss, same as the old boss." Luther also
recommended that rabbis have their tongues torn out, if I remember
correctly.
>>The insurgents with him replied that if Yeshu was the Messiah he should give
>>them a convincing sign.
>
>No sign would convince them, as no evidence will ever convince a Nizkook of the
>truth either.
(* rolling eyes *) Am I the only one hearing Joe's promised "whirlwind"
tucker out
into a sporadic breeze before a long, calm night?
>>Yeshu spoke over the man the letters of the Ineffable Name,
>>and the leper was healed. Thereupon, they worshipped him as the Messiah, Son
>>of the Highest.
>
>IOW, when Christ GAVE them the sign they demanded, they preferred to call him a
>DEVIL and decided upon his death.
Joe, is that even _close_ to what it says above?
>>When word of these happenings came to Jerusalem, the Sanhedrin decided to
>>bring about the capture of Yeshu. They sent messengers, Annanui and Ahaziah,
>>who, pretending to be his disciples, said that they brought him an
>>invitation from the leaders of Jerusalem to visit them. Yeshu consented on
>>condition the members of the Sanhedrin receive him as a lord. He started out
>>toward Jerusalem and, arriving at Knob, acquired an ass on which he rode
>>into Jerusalem, as a fulfillment of the prophecy of Zechariah.
>
>IOW, by treachery they lured him into their web.
(* rolling eyes again *) Well, folks, there you have Bellinger's deep and
insightful "foremost expert in Judaism, as long as you don't ask me any
questions" take on Toledoth Yeshu -- just some rehashed stock phrases
issued in Joe's usual spasmodic style. After all his wheedling, "Don't
you want to talk about the Toledoth Yeshu," once we've finally got the
text in front of us, he just turns into his usual self.
Well, as they say, you can't do the goosestep without jerking your knees.
>>The Sages bound him and led him before Queen Helene, with the accusation:
>>"This man is a sorcerer and entices everyone." Yeshu replied, "The prophets
>>long ago prophesied my coming: 'And there shall come forth a rod out of the
>>stem of Jesse,' and I am he; but as for them, Scripture says 'Blessed is the
>>man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly.'"
>
>The reference to Queen Helene places this version in the time of St Louis of
>France. If not mistaken, she was the King's mother.
Or you could just read the introductory note.
>>Queen Helene asked the Sages: "What he says, is it in your Torah?" They
>>replied: "It is in our Torah, but it is not applicable to him, for it is in
>>Scripture: 'And that prophet which shall presume to speak a word in my name,
>>which I have not commanded him to speak or that shall speak in the name of
>>other gods, even that prophet shall die.' He has not fulfilled the signs and
>>conditions of the Messiah."
>
>More obfuscation, lies, and denial.
(* rolling eyes *)
Well, it was sure nice having such a scholarly chat with your scholarly
self, Scholarly Joe.
>>Carry on, Joe. I'm particularly curious to see how you address the question
>>of rabbinic origin, which you have postulated several times. Your proof
>>is exactly what, Joe? Or will you just dodge the question again, for
>>the _fifth_ time?
>
>Hab Geduld, mein Junge. es kommt.
And so he dodges it again. Why? Because he knows _we_ know it's an anonymous
manuscript, and there's as little evidence it was written by rabbis as there
is that it _isn't_... that is, zero in either case.
Now that the text is in front of everybody, though, it's a good time to
repost
this -- a descriptive paragraph from _The Encyclopedia of the Jewish
Religion_,
Werblowsky and Wigoder, eds.
----- begin repost
"Scurrilous account of the life and activity of Jesus which circulated in
different versions among the Jews during the Middle Ages; its Hebrew version
probably dates from the 13th cent., but it may be based on an earlier work
written in Aramaic. It gives the most ignoble interpretations to such
details as
the birth, the supernatural powers, and the tragic death of Jesus. Thus
Jesus is
made the illegitimate son of Mary by a Roman soldier Panthera (as first
stated
by Celsus in the 2nd cent.), his powers are said to said to derive from
black
magic, and his death is a shameful one. The dates do not correspond with
those
of the historical Jesus of Nazareth, and the work is an expression of the
vulgar
polemic which was, at times, the Jewish reaction to the even more vulgar
attacks
to which Judaism was subjected in popular Christian preaching and writing."
----- end repost
You might remember that when I first posted this (2/12)
Not-Even-A-Tad-Antisemitic Joe responded by snipping the whole thing and
saying,
"And you expect THEM to tell the truth! LOL!" (At that point Joe knew
literally
nothing about Werblowsky and Wigoder except that they were Jewish, but Joe
Bellicose obviously considered that sufficient justification to call them
liars.) Now that everyone has the text of the Toledoth Yeshu, you can see
for
yourself that the summary above is indeed accurate, and that Joe is indeed a
foul pile of Messerschmidt.
Also -- in his haste to snip-n-snipe, Joe clipped what I think was this
newsgroup's first reference to Celsus, whom he would later bring up himself,
demonstrating once again that his left brain cell knoweth not what his right
brain cell doeth.
@%<
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John Morris
21:46:52 GMT, deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
>>From: "David Gehrig" <zem...@antihormeltref.soltec.net>
>>Message-id: <I_%C2.323$lK2...@news13.ispnews.com>
>>Well then, let's help the poor lad out. After about thirty seconds with
>>AltaVista I found this:
>><http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/JewishJesus/toledoth.html>
>SNIP this version is not quite correct. For instance:
And, of course, the "for instance" doesn't include a discussion of a
single difference. The most *obvious* difference is that Humm's
version lacks the bedroom farce scene. And Joe missed the most glaring
difference.
I am not surprised.
But Humm's version is quite correct. It is but one version of the
story that exists in several versions, Ignoramus.
It is quite common in medieval literature for multiple versions of a
story to exist. I'll bet you didn't know, for instance, that there are
four versions of Chaucer's _Canterbury Tales_ with minor variants on
each and that it is not known which version is authorial. Multiple
version of texts exist even as late as Shakespeare. It is known that
two different version of _King Lear_ were performed in Shakespeare's
lifetime. Both are authorial. And, for that matter, Mary Shelley's
_Frankenstein_ is a version of her original shortened by her first
publishers.
Anyway, that is one of the great challenges of medieval studies:
sorting through the many variations of texts. You *rarely* get a
situation such as you have with, say, Vincent of Beauvais's _Speculum
maius_ here you have an author's holograph.
>> Toledoth Yeshu
>>[This is a derogatory version of the life of Jesus, growing out of the
>> response of the Jewish community to Christianity.
>A tradition of long standing over the centuries.
Yes? Your point?
>>The tradition presented
>> here is most commonly dated to approximately the 6th century CE
>That is AD. Note another Jewish and atheistic attempt tochange the method by
>which the history of the world is examined. Note how they went from CHRIST-mas
>to Xmas and now, to "Happy Holidays."
I was looking through the preface to Robert Holcot's _Super libros
sapientiae_ the other day and came across a reference to Augustine's
_De doctrina Christiana_. Holcot was an Dominican friar and lecturer
in theology at Oxford in the 1330s.
As is typical of 14th-century theological works, there are a great
many abbreviations in Holcot's lectures on the Book of Wisdom, and the
_De doctrina_ is abbreviated as 'de doctna xpiana.' Since the
discussion of the 'x' for 'Christ' has come up before, I looked at
Adriano Cappelli's dictionary of medieval Latin abbreviations and
found a dozen or so variations on 'x' and 'xp' for Christ. Judging
from the handwriting samples in Cappelli, the abbreviation was in use
in Latin as early as the 9th century, if not earlier. In a previous
discussion of the question with Fergus McClelland, it was found that
the Oxford English Dictionary has an English reference dating from the
10th century.
Joe Expert might be interested to know that the first two letters of
'Christ' in Greek are 'chi' and 'rho' which look like the Latin 'x'
and 'p.' I doubt whether Joe Expert has ever wondered why the Arms of
the Holy See contain an 'x' superimposed on a 'p.'
One only wonders whether Joe Expert will now believe that the medieval
Popes and theologians were Jews and atheists who got an early start on
denigrating the religion to which he swears only a nominal allegiance.
As usual, Joe Expert substitutes an antisemitic cliche for real
expertise.
>>The text
>> it self is closer to the 14th c.
>BUT it is based upon Jewish tradtions of long standing over the centuries as I
>shall prove.
Newsflash for you: you don't need to prove matters of common
knowledge.
> Answer me this:
>From WHOM did Celcus obtain his anti_Christ diatribe?>
Who? Do you mean Celsus? Just hazarding a guess I would say the people
most knowledgeable about Judean affairs: Greeks or Jews.
>>H.J.
>> Schonfield argued that it was so closely connected to the Gospel of the
>> Hebrews that he attempted to reconstruct that lost work from the Toledoth.
>Yes, this is the fool who claim Christ staged his own crucifixtion in "The
>Passover Plot." Another conspiracy nut.
>> Text from Goldstein, Jesus in the Jewish Tradition, pp. 148-154.
>I am familiar with Goldstein.
>>At the close of a certain Sabbath, Joseph Pandera, attractive and like a
>>warrior in appearance, having gazed lustfully upon Miriam, knocked upon the
>>door of her room and betrayed her by pretending that he was her betrothed
>>husband, Yohanan. Even so, she was amazed at this improper conduct and
>>submitted only against her will.
>This is NOT a direct translation of the original Latin which I posted in this
>NG. We know why, though, don't we?
Yes. There is more than one version of the story, Ignoramus.
You'd know that if you had looked at the web page.
>>One day Yeshu walked in front of the Sages with his head uncovered, showing
>>shameful disrespect. At this, the discussion arose as to whether this
>>behavior did not truly indicate that Yeshu was an illegitimate child and the
>>son of a niddah[3].
>A "niddah" in Jewish parlance is an "unclean, menstruating woman."
"Jewish parlance." ROTFL!
>>Moreover, the story tells that while the rabbis were
>>discussing the Tractate Nezikin, he gave his own impudent interpretation of
>>the law and in an ensuing debate he held that Moses could not be the
>>greatest of the prophets if he had to receive counsel from Jethro.
>In other words, Christ was the first "revisionist" and these Jewish leaders
>were the first Nizkooks! LOL!
Joe Ignoramus now goes into raving mode.
>>nd it was discovered
>>through Rabban Shimeon ben Shetah that he was the illegitimate son of Joseph
>>Pandera. Miriam admitted it.[4] After this became known, it was necessary
>>for Yeshu to flee to Upper Galilee.
>A plain slander, ala Yale edeiken.
Ah, yes. The Eternal Jew rave.
>>Yeshu came and learned the letters of the Name
>Yes, this would be "Shem Hamphoras." THis foul allegation so angered Dr Luther
>that he composed one of his final tracts attacking the culprits.
>>The insurgents with him replied that if Yeshu was the Messiah he should give
>>them a convincing sign.
>No sign would convince them, as no evidence will ever convince a Nizkook of the
>truth either.
No sign would convince them . . .
>>Yeshu spoke over the man the letters of the Ineffable Name,
>>and the leper was healed. Thereupon, they worshipped him as the Messiah, Son
>>of the Highest.
>IOW, when Christ GAVE them the sign they demanded, they preferred to call him a
>DEVIL and decided upon his death.
. . . they were convinced by the sign.
I'm just trying to imagine the circuitry in your brain. Little
switches burning out and re-establishing connections at random, and
the smell of ozone everywhere.
>>When word of these happenings came to Jerusalem, the Sanhedrin decided to
>>bring about the capture of Yeshu. They sent messengers, Annanui and Ahaziah,
>>who, pretending to be his disciples, said that they brought him an
>>invitation from the leaders of Jerusalem to visit them. Yeshu consented on
>>condition the members of the Sanhedrin receive him as a lord. He started out
>>toward Jerusalem and, arriving at Knob, acquired an ass on which he rode
>>into Jerusalem, as a fulfillment of the prophecy of Zechariah.
>IOW, by treachery they lured him into their web.
Did you know that the ass was also named Joseph? Later, he was ground
up for sausages in the town of Belling and became known as Joseph
Bellinger.
Not that I am hopeful of a coherent answer, but how could you believe
that they "lured him by treachery" if the story is untrue?
>>The Sages bound him and led him before Queen Helene, with the accusation:
>>"This man is a sorcerer and entices everyone." Yeshu replied, "The prophets
>>long ago prophesied my coming: 'And there shall come forth a rod out of the
>>stem of Jesse,' and I am he; but as for them, Scripture says 'Blessed is the
>>man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly.'"
>The reference to Queen Helene places this version in the time of St Louis of
>France. If not mistaken, she was the King's mother.
Really, Joe, what are the odds that you would not be mistaken?
Louis IX's (1214-1270) mother was Blanche of Castile, daughter of
Alfonso IX of Castile.
>>Queen Helene asked the Sages: "What he says, is it in your Torah?" They
>>replied: "It is in our Torah, but it is not applicable to him, for it is in
>>Scripture: 'And that prophet which shall presume to speak a word in my name,
>>which I have not commanded him to speak or that shall speak in the name of
>>other gods, even that prophet shall die.' He has not fulfilled the signs and
>>conditions of the Messiah."
>More obfuscation, lies, and denial.
Ran out of things to say, I see.
>>Carry on, Joe. I'm particularly curious to see how you address the question
>>of rabbinic origin, which you have postulated several times. Your proof
>>is exactly what, Joe? Or will you just dodge the question again, for
>>the _fifth_ time?
>Hab Geduld, mein Junge. es kommt.
Bellingexcuse #2: "I will post it before the end of the next Ice Age."
--
John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
John Morris
-0500, gmc...@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>In <36e570c6...@news.srv.ualberta.ca>, on Tue, 02 Mar 1999 23:29:35
>GMT, John....@xmunge.UAlberta.CA (John Morris) wrote:
[snip]
>> He says he is setting the historical background for his discussion of
>> the Sepher Toledoth Yeshu. Since Decius was a third-century emperor,
>> and since the Sepher Toledoth Yeshu is *conjectured* to be as old
>> perhaps as the sixth century, and since the version he wants to deal
>> with is from the twelfth century, I would say we are going to have a
>> loooong wait for Joe to get to the point.
>> And the point? The Jews are as evil as he wants to believe they are.
>> Nine centuries of Saints' Legends. I can hardly wait. See you next
>> year when he reaches little Hugh of Lincoln meeping out hymns
>> posthumously in the privy.
>You don't suppose he has gotten his hands on a copy of "The Golden
>Legend"? Sheesh, we could be here until the end of time.
Thankfully not. St. Pionus isn't in there.
The last thing we want to be doing is debunking popular hagiographical
apocrypha. ;-)
But thanks for reminding me of it. It's been forever since I looked at
it. I am pretty much done with the politics of the Dominicans and the
Cathars, but remembering that Jacobus de Voragine was a Dominican in
Lombardy (Cathar country) in the early 13th century puts a whole new
complexion on things.
Sorry if that is cryptic. It has to do with my dissertation and where
my subject read his natural philosophy. Dominicans, of course.
Something to follow up later on.
Gregory Taylor
> the Sepher Toledoth Yeshu. Since Decius was a third-century emperor,
> and since the Sepher Toledoth Yeshu is *conjectured* to be as old
> perhaps as the sixth century, and since the version he wants to deal
> with is from the twelfth century, I would say we are going to have a
> loooong wait for Joe to get to the point.
This and similar problems appear to have vexed Revilo Oliver and driven
him to similar acts of glossover and conflation. You may find something
here which will (cough) strike you as remarkably similar to the thus far
poorly articulated these that Joe is bogering about with. Take a look at:
http://www.stormfront.org/rpo/JESUS.htm
Perhaps the problem that Joe faces is that he's concerned about a possible
audience who might actually know a little bit about textual criticism. It's
little surprise that Oliver completely skips over what *is* generally
agreed upon about the dating of the text, since he probably has a rough row
to how. Based on what I've seen (and now, thanks to the History Channel,
verified in person), Joe may have a rougher row and a smaller hoe.
So, Joe - what textual evidence (which includes stylistic analysis, content
analysis, and what we know about the available primary documents) would lead
you to date the STY? Why not start with Martin Larson?
Don't worry - I'm expecting very little here. I keep noticing that your
promised broadside started to slip forward about the time that verious
folks here posted the occasional article which appeared to indicate some
familiarity with the text. My own surprise is that you're not going with
some claim that the "discovered" 16th C. version isn't a JOOOOish plot.
By the way - you could always check with the American Theosophical Society,
whose library used to have some materials on it (I grew up right down the
road). Both Mme. Blavatsky *and* Al Crowley (good soldiers of the Holy See,
both :-) ) were, just like you, *real* interested in the text.
Happy hunting,
Greg
--
When I pronounce the word Future,/the first syllable already belongs to the
past./When I pronounce the word Silence,/I destroy it./When I pronounce the
word Nothing,/I make something no nonbeing can hold./ (Wislawa Szymborska)
Gregory Taylor WORT-FM www.msn.fullfeed.com/~gtaylor/RTQE.html 608.828.3385
yale_f._edeiken
> >Subject: Re: More Anti-Semitic Lies from Jew-hating Joe
> >From: Yale F. Edeiken
> >Date: 3/3/99 9:30 AM EST
> >Message-id: <36ddd...@news3.enter.net>
> >You are lying again. It was directed exactly against the "conversos", Jews
> >who had been forcibily converted to Catholicism.
> Yet another lie and distortion.
Yup. All history is a "lie" to Jew-hating Joe.
But then he claimed that Torquemada was really a Jew.
> >Of course you remember!
> >> But, like a Nizkook, choose to forget.
> > The why didn't the Christians after Constantine leave the Jews alone?
> I guess they were not in a forgive and forget mood at the time.
> > Are you now claiming to be an Orthodox Jew?
> > No he's claiming to be a Catholic and pointing out your filthy bigotry
> which is specifically condemned by the Catholic Church.
> I am uninterested in your preaching Catholicism to me or anyone else.
I am not "preaching Catholicism" to you although you seem quite ignorant of
that religion. I am reminding you of its teaching that:
"The Church decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism,
directed against Jews at any time by any one."
Your writings are an insult to every believing Catholic in the world.
In article <19990112213243...@ng31.aol.com>, deb...@aol.com
(Debunks) wrote: "I post deliberate misinformation . . ."
"hello? antone out there 12-14 e-mail me. i am thirteen and . .
.well if you e-mail me at jbel...@sprynet.com you can find out more about me i
am a female."
--YFE
The Holocaust History Project is at http://www.holocaust-history.org/
The Nizkor Project is at http://www.nizkor.org/
The Einsatzgruppen page is at http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/
The Cybrary of the Holocaust is at http://www.remember.org/
yale_f._edeiken
> >Date: 3/4/99 10:25 AM EST
> >Message-id: <7bm8kj$f...@tricia.msn.fullfeed.com>
> >Based on what I've seen (and now, thanks to the History Channel,
> >verified in person), Joe may have a rougher row and a smaller hoe.
> We will see about that. FYI, I have not yet begun to post. When I do, you
> shall all flee. It is so predictable.
No we won't. When Jew-hating Joe gets around to posting our
grandchildren will probably be dead from old age.
Over a year ago Jew-hating Joe claimed he had photographs, eyewitness
testimony, and pathological reports stating that Himmler had been murdered by a
"Jew" named Michael Murphy. He promised that *yawn* he would post that
evidence.
Has anybody ever seen it?
David Gehrig
(Debunks) wrote:
>>Subject: Re: The Fleas of a Saint
>>From: "David Gehrig" <zem...@antihormeltref.soltec.net>
>>Date: 3/4/99 1:16 AM EST
>>Message-id: <WypD2.189$bH4....@news12.ispnews.com>
>
>I see you like to poke fun at the deaths of Christian martyrs, like a good
>little orthodox would. I will keep this in mind the next time I examine the
>history of Jews who died for their faith.
The reference is not to St. Pionius or any other figure, but rather
to you and your hystrionic attempts at playing the martyr because
those Wicked Jews have the temerity to get miffed at your overt
antisemitism.
>>So your "not quite correct" means that some poor commentator didn't
>>decribe it the way you liked?
>
>Let's just examine what these Jews wrote, shall we?
Which is now possible to do, since I actually _posted_ the text,
instead of just making grand condemnatory statements about it,
or promising I Will Post In The Great By and By. You're about an inch
and a half from boring me out of this string, Joe, and I suspect
I'm not alone in that regard.
>>>That is AD. Note another Jewish and atheistic attempt tochange the method
>>by
>>>which the history of the world is examined. Note how they went from
>>CHRIST-mas
>>>to Xmas and now, to "Happy Holidays."
>>
>>Oh, c'mon, Joe. You gonna make me dig up that post from last Christmas
>>where I show that "Xmas" is an English usage going back to before the
>>time of Shakespeare? Why do you fleeners always try to pin that one
>>on The Jews? Don't any of you Jew-hating dopes have dictionaries?
Joe, embarrassed that a Jew knows more about the history of the word
"Xmas" than he does, and doubly embarrassed because he'd made an overtly
antisemitic comment claiming that the usage was a Joooooish Plot, only
to find out that -- once again -- his history had failed him (in what's
supposed to be his home-field advantage, no less), has no answer here.
>The modern use of this symbol was clearly introduced by Jews and atheists.
(* rolling eyes again *) Look it up in the OED, fleener, and you'll see
that it has been used consistently for a thousand years. Do you imagine
that some little conclave of Jews got together, read over old medieval
manuscripts, found an abbreviation for "Christos," and said, "Here!
let's use an abbreviation which obviously stands for 'Christos', and
that will be our way of twisting the word 'christmas,' which will
still appear in every damn ad in November and December anyway,
despite our stupid plot"?
>>From WHOM did Celcus obtain his anti_Christ diatribe?
>>
>>Oh, for God's sake, Joe, if you're going to pretend to be a scholar, at
>>least
>>try to spell the man's name right. It's only six letters.
>
>TYpo. Now, answer the question.
Jews, non-Jews, both, or he made it up himself.
>>Tell me, Joe, who posted the name Celsus here nearly a month ago, and
>>who snipped the entire paragraph it was in with one foul antisemitic
>>swipe? Answer below.
>
>I don't remember.
(Joe parody) Oh, _sure_, he doesn't remember, ri-i-ight. And WE ALL KNOW
WHY too, DONT WE!!!!!!
>>>>H.J.
>>>> Schonfield argued that it was so closely connected to the Gospel of the
>>>> Hebrews that he attempted to reconstruct that lost work from the Toledoth.
>>>
>>>Yes, this is the fool who claim Christ staged his own crucifixtion in "The
>>>Passover Plot." Another conspiracy nut.
>>
>>I'll defer to your vastly superior knowledge of conspiracy nuttery here.
>
>Good. So it is agreed upon then that Schonfeld is a nut.
But I presented the text of the Toledoth Yeshu exactly as I found it,
without inserting things without comment (as, say, you've been known to
do) and without deletions of even such obvious irrelevancies as the
reference to Schonfeld.
>>Schonfeld doesn't impress me either, but he's not the topic we're
>>addressing. We're looking at the document you're trying to use to
>>justify or excuse a thousand years of violence against Jews.
>
>Rephrase your comments.
I'm sorry, I meant to say "drop dead, Nazi loon." No, that's just a typo.
This darn keyboard.
>I neither wrote nor implied any such thing.
Horseshit. Are you pretending you selected a medieval Jewish manuscript
at random, just to earn your merit badge, but are trying to build a
conspiracy case around it from 50 CE on?
>In fact,
>I stated most emphatically that I do NOT blame later generations for what those
>hateful fools wrote.
>I expect an apology forthis remark. Are you man enough to give it?
The second you apologize for your gratuitious insult of my late mother.
Right here is fine -->
>>>I am familiar with Goldstein.
>>
>>Meaning what, you saw the dust jacket of his book once?
>
>I am familiar with Goldstein.
And?
>>>>At the close of a certain Sabbath, Joseph Pandera, attractive and like a
>>>>warrior in appearance, having gazed lustfully upon Miriam, knocked upon the
>>>>door of her room and betrayed her by pretending that he was her betrothed
>>>>husband, Yohanan. Even so, she was amazed at this improper conduct and
>>>>submitted only against her will.
>>>
>>>This is NOT a direct translation of the original Latin which I posted in
>>this
>>>NG. We know why, though, don't we?
>>
>>"original Latin." Joe, you're too much. You've never encountered a Jewish
>>idea you couldn't miscomprehend when it suited you.
>
>As I said, this is not the story related in the original Latin I posted a week
>ago.
And? What, are you trying to win back the Most Overplayed Hand
award from the House Judiciary Committee? Or have you finally
learned that the only way that you can postpone your eventual
defeat is to not say anything except "Wait... wait... wait..."
>>>A "niddah" in Jewish parlance is an "unclean, menstruating woman."
>>
>>Mazel tov, Joe, got it in one.
>
>I am disappointed. I was expecting an insult.
Okay, here's one: Hitlerite. The fact you consider it a compliment
is what makes it an insult.
>>Miriam admitted it.[4] After this became known, it was necessary
>>>>for Yeshu to flee to Upper Galilee.
>>>
>>>A plain slander, ala Yale edeiken.
>>
>>If this is what you're reduced to this early in the discussion of the
>>actual text, and not your exaggerated Coming Attractions, you are
>>cinnamon _toast_, bro, in a cracked pot.
>
>Never second guess me.
Don't like to know how predictable you are, do you? You imagine you're
playing out a scenario that hasn't been done to death already by
centuries of antisemites, is that it?
Zzzzzzzzzzzz.
>>>Yes, this would be "Shem Hamphoras." THis foul allegation so angered Dr
>>Luther
>>>that he composed one of his final tracts attacking the culprits.
>>
>>Luther was ticked off already, because he'd assumed that Jews would flock
>>to his reformed church, which from our point of view was -- to quote
>>Pete Townshend -- "meet the new boss, same as the old boss." Luther also
>>recommended that rabbis have their tongues torn out, if I remember
>>correctly.
>
>Well, Luther could be a bit extreme at times. However, what pissed him off was
>not that the Jews refused to convert, but their hatefulness.
Ah, so now you can speak ex cathedra (so to speak) for Luther too?
When will you start doing it for Buddha as well?
>As you see, hate works two ways. What did the Jews under Bar Kochba do to the
>Jewish converts to Christianity when they identified them?
Well, to paraphrase Reagan, there you go again with "the Jews." Every time
it's explained to you, you pretend you understand why you can't make
blanket statements like that, and then you turn around the next day and
do it again. But let someone talk of what "the Germans" did in WWII,
and Joe Bellicose goes into flamethrower mode.
>>>>Yeshu spoke over the man the letters of the Ineffable Name,
>>>>and the leper was healed. Thereupon, they worshipped him as the Messiah,
>>Son
>>>>of the Highest.
>>>
>>>IOW, when Christ GAVE them the sign they demanded, they preferred to call
>>him a
>>>DEVIL and decided upon his death.
>>
>>Joe, is that even _close_ to what it says above?
>
>Pulled it out of context, I see. They demanded a sign to prove he was the
>Messiah. he complied, and then they stillrefused to believe and instead resort
>to slander by claiming he had a DEVIL. Starting to sound familiar...? Same
>old tactics.
Joe, look carefully and you'll see that I snipped _not a character_ of
your posts. I "pulled it out of context" by preserving every last
keystroke of your previous post.
>>(* rolling eyes again *) Well, folks, there you have Bellinger's deep and
>>insightful "foremost expert in Judaism, as long as you don't ask me any
>>questions" take on Toledoth Yeshu -- just some rehashed stock phrases
>>issued in Joe's usual spasmodic style. After all his wheedling, "Don't
>>you want to talk about the Toledoth Yeshu," once we've finally got the
>>text in front of us, he just turns into his usual self.
>
>We are FAR from discussing this in its entirety. There are many different
>versions of this tale as you well know.
The horse is dead, Joe. Anybody who wants to can see the text of
the _Toledoth Yeshu_ and see that, had they filmed it,
it would have made one of the more innocuous sequences
in "Monty Python's Life of Brian." Just because you think you're
delivering the blows with exquisite timing doesn't make the horse
you're beating any less dead, or your quibbling over details any
more a "whirlwind."
>>Well, it was sure nice having such a scholarly chat with your scholarly
>>self, Scholarly Joe.
>
>We will see how nice you think it is as we proceed.....
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
>>And so he dodges it again. Why? Because he knows _we_ know it's an anonymous
>>manuscript, and there's as little evidence it was written by rabbis as there
>>is that it _isn't_... that is, zero in either case.
>>
>>Now that the text is in front of everybody, though, it's a good time to
>>repost
>>this -- a descriptive paragraph from _The Encyclopedia of the Jewish
>>Religion_,
>>Werblowsky and Wigoder, eds.
>
>Like I said: "Hab Geduld...You will have your chance to reply as we go along.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzz....
And, gee, Joe, I suspect you'll have another opportunity to snip that
paragraph in its entirety without comment, and without noticing its
mention of Celsus.
>>----- end repost
>>
>>You might remember that when I first posted this (2/12)
>>Not-Even-A-Tad-Antisemitic Joe responded by snipping the whole thing and
>>saying,
>>"And you expect THEM to tell the truth! LOL!" (At that point Joe knew
>>literally
>>nothing about Werblowsky and Wigoder except that they were Jewish, but Joe
>>Bellicose obviously considered that sufficient justification to call them
>>liars.) Now that everyone has the text of the Toledoth Yeshu, you can see
>>for
>>yourself that the summary above is indeed accurate, and that Joe is indeed a
>>foul pile of Messerschmidt.
>
>We shall see....sit tight.
Zzzzzzzzzzzz....
>>Also -- in his haste to snip-n-snipe, Joe clipped what I think was this
>>newsgroup's first reference to Celsus, whom he would later bring up himself,
>>demonstrating once again that his left brain cell knoweth not what his right
>>brain cell doeth.
>>
>
>I do not remember any previous post relating to Celsus.
You just snipped it again, Joe! Tell me, are you under some union contract
that says you can't read more than the first sentence of any paragraph
you don't like before you snip it away?
@%<
Debunks
>Date: 3/4/99 5:36 AM EST
>Message-id: <36ddd789...@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
>The most *obvious* difference is that Humm's
>version lacks the bedroom farce scene. And Joe missed the most glaring
>difference.
Post as many versions as may please you. I intend to.
>But Humm's version is quite correct. It is but one version of the
>story that exists in several versions, Ignoramus.
>
I am aware of that, John boy. With your supposed great intellect, I am
astonished that you missed that point.
>It is quite common in medieval literature for multiple versions of a
>story to exist.
Do not preach to me in that didactic manner. I am well aware of this fact.
even the gospels consist of numerous versions. I am, however, interested in
all the embellisments of the Toldoth Yeshu over the years.
>A tradition of long standing over the centuries.
>
>Yes? Your point?
>
Apparently you already sat on it.
>That is AD. Note another Jewish and atheistic attempt tochange the method by
>>which the history of the world is examined. Note how they went from
>CHRIST-mas
>>to Xmas and now, to "Happy Holidays."
>
>I was looking through the preface to Robert Holcot's _Super libros
>sapientiae_ the other day and came across a reference to Augustine's
>_De doctrina Christiana_. Holcot was an Dominican friar and lecturer
>in theology at Oxford in the 1330s.
>
I am also familiar with this as well, thank you. The reasons for the use of
the X by Christians centuries ago and the people I just referred to are
completely dissimilar, as you well know.
> I doubt whether Joe Expert has ever wondered why the Arms of
>the Holy See contain an 'x' superimposed on a 'p.'
>
No, I have not wondered, except maybe when I was 7 years old. So apparently it
is now your latest contention that these atheists and anti_Christs of the
modern era decided upon these splendid little examples to curry favor with the
Holy See? How generous of them!
>Expert will now believe that the medieval
>Popes and theologians were Jews and atheists who got an early start on
>denigrating the religion to which he swears only a nominal allegiance.
Are you now claiming to be a practicing Catholic and my confessor?
>As usual, Joe Expert substitutes an antisemitic cliche for real
>expertise.
As usual you substitute a buzzword for debate. Yawn.
>The text
>>> it self is closer to the 14th c.
>
>>BUT it is based upon Jewish tradtions of long standing over the centuries as
>I
>>shall prove.
>
>Newsflash for you: you don't need to prove matters of common
>knowledge.
Good. Glad to see you admit it.
>
>>From WHOM did Celcus obtain his anti_Christ diatribe?>
>
>Who? Do you mean Celsus?
No, I mean Celsus.
>ust hazarding a guess I would say the people
>most knowledgeable about Judean affairs: Greeks or Jews.
>
He claimed it was Jews. Not Greeks.
>
>>This is NOT a direct translation of the original Latin which I posted in
>this
>>NG. We know why, though, don't we?
>
>Yes. There is more than one version of the story, Ignoramus.
>
And will you post them all, john-boy?
>
>>A "niddah" in Jewish parlance is an "unclean, menstruating woman."
>
>"Jewish parlance." ROTFL!
>
I see...parlance is not a word?
>
>>A plain slander, ala Yale edeiken.
>
>Ah, yes. The Eternal Jew rave.
Stop acting it and you and others will not be referred to as one.
>Not that I am hopeful of a coherent answer, but how could you believe
>that they "lured him by treachery" if the story is untrue?
As beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so truth is assauged by the context
and motive of the speaker.
>
>Really, Joe, what are the odds that you would not be mistaken?
Who cares?
Debunks
>From: "David Gehrig" <zem...@antihormeltref.soltec.net>
I see you like to poke fun at the deaths of Christian martyrs, like a good
little orthodox would. I will keep this in mind the next time I examine the
history of Jews who died for their faith.
>So your "not quite correct" means that some poor commentator didn't
>decribe it the way you liked?
>
Let's just examine what these Jews wrote, shall we?
>>
>>That is AD. Note another Jewish and atheistic attempt tochange the method
>by
>>which the history of the world is examined. Note how they went from
>CHRIST-mas
>>to Xmas and now, to "Happy Holidays."
>
>Oh, c'mon, Joe. You gonna make me dig up that post from last Christmas
>where I show that "Xmas" is an English usage going back to before the
>time of Shakespeare? Why do you fleeners always try to pin that one
>on The Jews? Don't any of you Jew-hating dopes have dictionaries?
>
The modern use of this symbol was clearly introduced by Jews and atheists.
>From WHOM did Celcus obtain his anti_Christ diatribe?
>
>Oh, for God's sake, Joe, if you're going to pretend to be a scholar, at
>least
>try to spell the man's name right. It's only six letters.
TYpo. Now, answer the question.
>Tell me, Joe, who posted the name Celsus here nearly a month ago, and
>who snipped the entire paragraph it was in with one foul antisemitic
>swipe? Answer below.
I don't remember.
>>>H.J.
>>> Schonfield argued that it was so closely connected to the Gospel of the
>>> Hebrews that he attempted to reconstruct that lost work from the Toledoth.
>>
>>Yes, this is the fool who claim Christ staged his own crucifixtion in "The
>>Passover Plot." Another conspiracy nut.
>
>I'll defer to your vastly superior knowledge of conspiracy nuttery here.
Good. So it is agreed upon then that Schonfeld is a nut.
>
>Schonfeld doesn't impress me either, but he's not the topic we're
>addressing. We're looking at the document you're trying to use to
>justify or excuse a thousand years of violence against Jews.
>
Rephrase your comments. I neither wrote nor implied any such thing. In fact,
I stated most emphatically that I do NOT blame later generations for what those
hateful fools wrote.
I expect an apology forthis remark. Are you man enough to give it?
>>I am familiar with Goldstein.
>
>Meaning what, you saw the dust jacket of his book once?
I am familiar with Goldstein.
>
>>>At the close of a certain Sabbath, Joseph Pandera, attractive and like a
>>>warrior in appearance, having gazed lustfully upon Miriam, knocked upon the
>>>door of her room and betrayed her by pretending that he was her betrothed
>>>husband, Yohanan. Even so, she was amazed at this improper conduct and
>>>submitted only against her will.
>>
>>This is NOT a direct translation of the original Latin which I posted in
>this
>>NG. We know why, though, don't we?
>
>"original Latin." Joe, you're too much. You've never encountered a Jewish
>idea you couldn't miscomprehend when it suited you.
>
As I said, this is not the story related in the original Latin I posted a week
ago.
>>A "niddah" in Jewish parlance is an "unclean, menstruating woman."
>
>Mazel tov, Joe, got it in one.
I am disappointed. I was expecting an insult.
>Miriam admitted it.[4] After this became known, it was necessary
>>>for Yeshu to flee to Upper Galilee.
>>
>>A plain slander, ala Yale edeiken.
>
>If this is what you're reduced to this early in the discussion of the
>actual text, and not your exaggerated Coming Attractions, you are
>cinnamon _toast_, bro, in a cracked pot.
Never second guess me.
>>
>>Yes, this would be "Shem Hamphoras." THis foul allegation so angered Dr
>Luther
>>that he composed one of his final tracts attacking the culprits.
>
>Luther was ticked off already, because he'd assumed that Jews would flock
>to his reformed church, which from our point of view was -- to quote
>Pete Townshend -- "meet the new boss, same as the old boss." Luther also
>recommended that rabbis have their tongues torn out, if I remember
>correctly.
>
Well, Luther could be a bit extreme at times. However, what pissed him off was
not that the Jews refused to convert, but their hatefulness.
As you see, hate works two ways. What did the Jews under Bar Kochba do to the
Jewish converts to Christianity when they identified them?
>
>>>Yeshu spoke over the man the letters of the Ineffable Name,
>>>and the leper was healed. Thereupon, they worshipped him as the Messiah,
>Son
>>>of the Highest.
>>
>>IOW, when Christ GAVE them the sign they demanded, they preferred to call
>him a
>>DEVIL and decided upon his death.
>
>Joe, is that even _close_ to what it says above?
>
Pulled it out of context, I see. They demanded a sign to prove he was the
Messiah. he complied, and then they stillrefused tobelieve and instead resort
to slander by claiming he had a DEVIL. Starting to sound familiar...? Same
old tactics.
>(* rolling eyes again *) Well, folks, there you have Bellinger's deep and
>insightful "foremost expert in Judaism, as long as you don't ask me any
>questions" take on Toledoth Yeshu -- just some rehashed stock phrases
>issued in Joe's usual spasmodic style. After all his wheedling, "Don't
>you want to talk about the Toledoth Yeshu," once we've finally got the
>text in front of us, he just turns into his usual self.
>
We are FAR from discussing this in its entirety. There are many different
versions of this tale as you well know.
>Well, it was sure nice having such a scholarly chat with your scholarly
>self, Scholarly Joe.
We will see how nice you think it is as we proceed.....
>
>And so he dodges it again. Why? Because he knows _we_ know it's an anonymous
>manuscript, and there's as little evidence it was written by rabbis as there
>is that it _isn't_... that is, zero in either case.
>
>Now that the text is in front of everybody, though, it's a good time to
>repost
>this -- a descriptive paragraph from _The Encyclopedia of the Jewish
>Religion_,
>Werblowsky and Wigoder, eds.
>
Like I said: "Hab Geduld...You will haveyour chance to reply as we go along.
>
>----- end repost
>
>You might remember that when I first posted this (2/12)
>Not-Even-A-Tad-Antisemitic Joe responded by snipping the whole thing and
>saying,
>"And you expect THEM to tell the truth! LOL!" (At that point Joe knew
>literally
>nothing about Werblowsky and Wigoder except that they were Jewish, but Joe
>Bellicose obviously considered that sufficient justification to call them
>liars.) Now that everyone has the text of the Toledoth Yeshu, you can see
>for
>yourself that the summary above is indeed accurate, and that Joe is indeed a
>foul pile of Messerschmidt.
>
We shall see....sit tight.
>Also -- in his haste to snip-n-snipe, Joe clipped what I think was this
>newsgroup's first reference to Celsus, whom he would later bring up himself,
>demonstrating once again that his left brain cell knoweth not what his right
>brain cell doeth.
>
I do not remember any previous post relating to Celsus.
Debunks
>From: Yale F. Edeiken
>Date: 3/3/99 9:24 AM EST
>Message-id: <36ddd...@news3.enter.net>
>
> Note that despite his lying claims Jew-hating Joe does not even know
>which language in which the Talmud was written and thought that Hanukah lasts
>for
>three days.
>
Hint: I have lived aroun dJews for years. How silly of you to claim that I am
unaware of the length of Hanukah.