A detailed paper on the micromanagement of the Holocaust
Eugene Holman
chain of command connected with the planning, implementation, and
consequences of the massacre of approximately 24,000 Jews at Rumbula,
outside Riga, on November 30 and December 8, 1941 under the supervision of
SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, who had been specifically ordered
to Riga by Berlin to liquidate Baltic Jews:
http://www.ithaca.edu/faculty/ezergail/RumbulaR.pdf
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Zulu
So, that "extermination plan" isn't be supposed to have been SECRET anymore?
Eugene Holman
It was secret in the sense that orders for it were evidently issued orally
to a few of Hitler's most trusted officials, with no written record being
kept. There is nothing unusual about that, given how Hitler in most
uncharacteristic style, had been forced to backtrack on the basis of the
first order he had signed for mass-murder, his authorization for
euthanasia within the framework of the T-4 program.
On the other hand, from the very beginning of the invasion of the USSR it
was no secret that the special task forces, the Einsatzkommandos, that
followed the Wehrmacht, sometimes assisted by local fascist groupings such
as the Arājs Commando in Latvia, were publicly killing the Jewish men,
women, and children that the Wehrmacht had identified and assembled in the
countryside and smaller towns. The liquidations of the ghettos in the
larger cities were also done in broad daylight with many episodes of
lethal violence both within the ghetto and along the route from the ghetto
to the killing site. On both November 30 and December 8, 1941 hundreds of
corpses of the people who had tried to escape or been unable to keep up
with the others and thus been shot in cold blood by the guards or police
lined the 10 kilometer-long route along Moscow Road from central Riga to
the Rumbula forest. As the day went by, their bodies were picked up,
loaded onto carts, and dumped, once again quite publicly, into a mass
grave at the Jewish cemetery in central Riga. Since news of the massacre
was broadcast the same day on the BBC, Radio Sweden, and Radio Moscow, it
is obvious that nothing was being done at this initial stage to keep its
implementation a secret. Similar scenes with variations due to local
circumstances took place along the eastern front all the way from Estonia
to the Crimean Peninsula in Ukraine. The fact that several of the worst of
these mass murders were organized and implemented by SS-Obergruppenführer
Friedrich Jeckeln, who even devised a methodology, Sardinenpackung that
enabled him and his fifty-man staff to kill people and dispose of their
bodies at a rate of 1,500 an hour, indicates that there was a plan
coordinated and financed from Berlin and relying on the feedback from
debriefings after each successful mass-murder to fine-tune its
methodology.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
colonel_...@yahoo.com.au
of them?
Would you recommend this fascinating looking eyewitness account?
http://www.holocaustsurvivors.org/cgi-bin/data.show.pl?di=record&da=bibliography&ke=39
> as the Arâjs Commando in Latvia, were publicly killing the Jewish
Ben Cramer
"Eugene Holman" <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:holman-2004...@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
Be very nice for the industry if it were true. Too many holes in it to even
be considered however.
Eugene Holman
colonel_...@yahoo.com.au wrote:
> Does your interesting paper deal where the bodies are now and how many
> of them?
The bodies at the Rumbula site were exhumed and burned on Himmler's orders
during the summer of 1943. Burned bones and other charred human remains
were being found there during the 1960s. The mass grave where the
approximately thousands people shot along the route from the ghetto to the
shooting site are buried is marked by a large headstone in the old Jewish
cemetery in central Riga.
The most detailed account of the entire massacre, chapter 8 of Andrew
Ezergailis's *The Holocaust in Latvia: 1941 1944*, with meticulopus
documentation, is available at
http://www.rumbula.org/Chapter_8_Rumbula.doc .
> Would you recommend this fascinating looking eyewitness account?
> http://www.holocaustsurvivors.org/cgi-bin/data.show.pl?di=3Drecord&da=3Dbib=
> liography&ke=3D39
I got it at
http://www.holocaustsurvivors.org/cgi-bin/data.show.pl?di=record&da=bibliography&ke=39.
Ezergailis refers to it. But his emphasis is more on the paper trail
generated in conjunction with its organization, supervision, and
implementation. Identifying, arresting, ghettoizing, supervising, and
eventually killing 25,000 people, and then locating, confiscating,
transporting, storing, guarding, classifying, and disposing of their
property and assets generates massive amounts of paperwork, most of it
still preserved in archives in Latvia and Germany.
The best way to acquiant yourself with this often forgotten but
historically important mass shooting operation is to go to its website at
http://www.rumbula.org/ .
Study of the Rumbula killing provides a reasonable answer to the often
asked question "Why didn't the Germans just line the Jews up against the
wall and shoot them?" Although mass killing specialist
SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln had devised an ingenious method
that combined mass killing and body disposal, this allowing for the
killing and burying of as many as 1,500 people an hour, it was not cost
effective, was logistically difficult to implement, traumatized the people
involved, and generated extremely negative publicity for the Nazi cause in
addition to leaving clear evidence of their crimes. Large-scale public
mass murder of Jews stopped on the eastern front a few weeks after the
Rumbula massacre.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
colonel_...@yahoo.com.au
Cemetery in Riga?
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/Riga/title.jpg
>From rather briefly looking at your original article, it doesnt sound
like there was much of a paper trial of original documents.
Although I am sure a lot has been generated in terms of trials,
confessions and what have you. It was the subject of quite a splendid
Soviet trial I believe.
Eugene Holman
colonel_...@yahoo.com.au wrote:
> Is this the place where 5000 Jews were buried at the Central Jewish
> Cemetery in Riga?
> http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/Riga/title.jpg
Yes. I've visited there twice. Fresh flowers are put on the mass grave
every day.
> >From rather briefly looking at your original article, it doesnt sound
> like there was much of a paper trial of original documents.
The first article was a conference presentation. Go to chapter 8 of the
same author's *The Holocaust in Latvia; 1941 1944*,
(http://www.rumbula.org/Chapter_8_Rumbula.doc.), for the more meticulous
documentation.
>
> Although I am sure a lot has been generated in terms of trials,
> confessions and what have you. It was the subject of quite a splendid
> Soviet trial I believe.
Rumbula was the subject of several trials, the nmost important being the
1978 trial of Victors Arajs in Hamburg in 1978. Evidence was presented
against several participants in the Rumbula massacre, including Jahnke,
Tuchel, Neuman, and Diedrich. Rumbula is the best documented public mass
murder of Jews carried out by the Nazis.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
> Is this the place where 5000 Jews were buried at the Central Jewish
> Cemetery in Riga?
> http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/Riga/title.jpg
Yes, although I the number of people buried there is not quite that high.
The ghetto was liquidated on two different days, first November 30, then
December 8. On both days the inhabitants of the ghetto were awakened at
six o'clock by the Germans and told to assemble in courtyards. Hundreds of
people were shot at the ghetto in cold blood for refusing to obey these
orders or for other forms of insubordination. Hundreds of other people
were shot along the ten kilometer route to the killing site for trying to
escape or failing to keep up. All of the bodies of the people shot in the
ghetto and along Moscow Road were collected on both days, carted to the
ghetto, and dumped into the pit in the old Jewish cemetery that the
Germans had created there using dynamite. The headstone was added later.
I've visited the former ghetto and old Jewish cemetery in Riga twice.
Fresh flowers are put on the mass grave every day by people whose loved
ones were buried there more than sixty years ago. A few blocks away on
Gogol Street are the ruins of the Great Choral Synagogue, torched with 300
people inside on July 4, 1941 with the encouragement of the Nazi occupiers
(http://www.rumbula.org/VirtualTours/jewish_riga_photo9.htm).
> >From rather briefly looking at your original article, it doesnt sound
> like there was much of a paper trial of original documents.
That article was a conference presentation given on the 60th anniversary
of the Rumbula massacre and thus not heavily crossreferenced. Go to
chapter 8 of the same author's *The Holocaust in Latvia; 1941 1944*,
(http://www.rumbula.org/Chapter_8_Rumbula.doc.), for more meticulous
documentation of the logististics and bureaucracy required to assemble
and kill 25,000 people, and then dispose of their property and assets.
> Although I am sure a lot has been generated in terms of trials,
> confessions and what have you.
Rumbula was the subject of several trials, the nmost important being the
1978 trial of Victors Arajs in Hamburg in 1978. Evidence was presented
against several participants in the Rumbula massacre, including Jahnke,
Tuchel, Neuman, and Diedrich. Rumbula is the best documented public mass
murder of Jews carried out by the Nazis.
> It was the subject of quite a splendid Soviet trial I believe.
It was, but far from splendid. For easily understood reasons, the Soviet
court in Riga was not sympathetic in early 1946 to captured Nazi
mass-murderer Friedrich Jeckeln and his closest associates. He was tried
more for being a high-level Nazi leader and police head than specifically
for the horrible crimes that he organized and implemented on Soviet
territory, see http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=362. For Jeckeln's
testimony, see
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/esg/jeckeln.html.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Roger
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Ben Cramer wrote
in message
<426756e0$0$252$61c6...@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>:
>"Eugene Holman" <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
>news:holman-2004...@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
>> This interesting paper deals with the flows of information up and down the
>> chain of command connected with the planning, implementation, and
>> consequences of the massacre of approximately 24,000 Jews at Rumbula,
>> outside Riga, on November 30 and December 8, 1941 under the supervision of
>> SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, who had been specifically ordered
>> to Riga by Berlin to liquidate Baltic Jews:
>>
>> http://www.ithaca.edu/faculty/ezergail/RumbulaR.pdf
>Be very nice for the industry if it were true. Too many holes in it to even
>be considered however.
Not that Ben can even attempt to actually *show* any such holes...
morghus
Eugene Holman wrote:
>
> Rumbula was the subject of several trials, the nmost important being
the
> 1978 trial of Victors Arajs in Hamburg in 1978. Evidence was
presented
> against several participants in the Rumbula massacre, including
Jahnke,
> Tuchel, Neuman, and Diedrich. Rumbula is the best documented public
mass
> murder of Jews carried out by the Nazis.
>
> Regards,
> Eugene Holman
How did the prosecutors at those trials explain the fact that the
victims at Rumbula were killed with Russian ammunition?
Ben Cramer
"Roger" <roger@.> wrote in message
news:ifhf61hmkj5cr3537...@4ax.com...
Why would I bother. You queer cunts dismiss everything, valid or not, which
doesn't align with your angle, as being lies. You are not bothered with
truth, you are more concerned with perpetuating the myth in order you can
maintain the industry.
helge
> In article <1114031482.8...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> colonel_...@yahoo.com.au wrote:
>
>
>>Does your interesting paper deal where the bodies are now and how many
>>of them?
>
>
> The bodies at the Rumbula site were exhumed and burned on Himmler's orders
> during the summer of 1943. Burned bones and other charred human remains
> were being found there during the 1960s. The mass grave where the
> approximately thousands people shot along the route from the ghetto to the
> shooting site are buried is marked by a large headstone in the old Jewish
> cemetery in central Riga.
Typical method of holocau$t propaganda deceit:
The fact that none ever found human remains of 25 000 "victims" nor
[traces of] massgraves with volume for cca. 25 000 "victims" is
"explained" with "Himmler's orders" that do not exist. Already in second
sentance Eugene "skillfully" runs away from the 25 000 "victims" and
massgraves with volume for 25 000 bodies, deceiving naive readers with
some "Burned bones and other charred human remains" WITHOUT MENTIONING
ANY NUMBERS.
The fact is that there are no massgraves, no human remains at Rumbula -
not even from 2000 "victims". The Rumbula "massacre" is a lie.
There was no Rumbula "massacre", and there was no holocau$t - it is a fraud.
<snip/>
_______________________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>
helge
Logic and the holocau$t:
<quote>
>Since news of the massacre
> was broadcast the same day on the BBC, Radio Sweden, and Radio Moscow,
</quote>
So we are being told that the news about the terrible massacre of jews
reached the same day BBC, Radio Sweden and Radio Moscow - already in
December 1941 ! - but for some "strange" reason the news did not have
any effect/impact on the another cca. 4 - 5 000 000 jews - they simply
sat back and conveniently waited to become the holocau$t victims.
how stupid has someone to be to buy such crap ?
> Regards,
> Eugene Holman
helge
> On the other hand, from the very beginning of the invasion of the USSR it
> was no secret that the special task forces, the Einsatzkommandos, that
> followed the Wehrmacht, sometimes assisted by local fascist groupings such
> as the Arājs Commando in Latvia, were publicly killing the Jewish men,
> women, and children that the Wehrmacht had identified and assembled in the
> countryside and smaller towns.
That 's a lie. None ever gave any orders, and none ever systematically
killed "jewish men, women and children".
SS and locals killed bandits [including jewish bandits] and
jewish-bolsheviks and commisars. Local people were motivated because
they wanted to retaliate for jewish-bolshewik crimes committed during
the soviet occupation.
<snip />
Roger
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Ben Cramer wrote
in message
>"Roger" <roger@.> wrote in message
>news:ifhf61hmkj5cr3537...@4ax.com...
>>>> This interesting paper deals with the flows of information up and down
>>>> the
>>>> chain of command connected with the planning, implementation, and
>>>> consequences of the massacre of approximately 24,000 Jews at Rumbula,
>>>> outside Riga, on November 30 and December 8, 1941 under the supervision
>>>> of
>>>> SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, who had been specifically
>>>> ordered
>>>> to Riga by Berlin to liquidate Baltic Jews:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ithaca.edu/faculty/ezergail/RumbulaR.pdf
>>>Be very nice for the industry if it were true. Too many holes in it to
>>>even
>>>be considered however.
>> Not that Ben can even attempt to actually *show* any such holes...
>Why would I bother.
So that you can at least *seem* not to be completely dishonest and
irrational.
>You queer cunts dismiss everything, valid or not, which
>doesn't align with your angle, as being lies.
Yet another claim which "ben" won't even try to document.
>You are not bothered with
>truth, you are more concerned with perpetuating the myth in order you can
>maintain the industry.
And you simply want an opportunity to vent your spleen.
Ben Cramer
"Roger" <roger@.> wrote in message
>>You queer cunts dismiss everything, valid or not, which
>>doesn't align with your angle, as being lies.
>
> Yet another claim which "ben" won't even try to document.
It's documented in this forum on a daily basis you dickhead. You simply only
pretend to understand that which you want.
>
>>You are not bothered with
>>truth, you are more concerned with perpetuating the myth in order you can
>>maintain the industry.
>
> And you simply want an opportunity to vent your spleen.
Perhaps that is the case. Perhaps it is also due to the fact I abhor lies,
and even more, I abhor lies which are institutionalised.
Roger
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Ben Cramer wrote
in message
>"Roger" <roger@.> wrote in message
>news:s7ai61t2n8gv1s0a4...@4ax.com...
>>>You queer cunts dismiss everything, valid or not, which
>>>doesn't align with your angle, as being lies.
>> Yet another claim which "ben" won't even try to document.
>It's documented in this forum on a daily basis you dickhead. You simply only
>pretend to understand that which you want.
No, it's not: you are claiming things about me which you cannot
document. A *man* would admit this and retract.
>>>You are not bothered with
>>>truth, you are more concerned with perpetuating the myth in order you can
>>>maintain the industry.
>> And you simply want an opportunity to vent your spleen.
>Perhaps that is the case. Perhaps it is also due to the fact I abhor lies,
>and even more, I abhor lies which are institutionalised.
But your behaviour shows that is not the case, since you *just* made a
false accusation, so obviously don't care about lying.
colonel_...@yahoo.com.au
I am not sure what you are trying to say here Morghus.
Undoubtedly there were mass executions of Latvians by the Russians both
in 1918-1920, 1939-1941 and after 1944.
But at the moment we have difficulty in actually finding any bodies at
Rumbula and therefore I doubt that any ammunitions has been discovered
either.
Of course, theoretically the forests around Rumbula ought to be
littered with ammo, because that wouldnt have been burned in the fires
that obliterated almost all traces of 25 000 Jews.
But I am not aware of any reports of any type of ammunition that would
need to be explained away by prosecutors.
Ben Cramer
"Roger" <roger@.> wrote in message
It was, and is not, a false statement.
Do try to read meaning of statements, and not just look at individual words.
It's a bit of a synergistic thing.
morghus
I'm going from memory here, but I believe the storytellers claim that
the Jewish victims at Rumbula were killed by Latvians using Russian
weapons. I don't think any serious search for graves was ever made at
Rumbula. Some people just started putting up monuments claiming
thousands of Jews were killed and buried in mass graves. It's a
typical technique of the German-hating holocaust promoters.
But the claims that Russian weapons were used suggests, at least to me,
that the Jewish Bolsheviks might have massacred some Latvians at
Rumbula, just as they mass murdered the Polish intelligentsia at Katyn.
One popular way the Bolsheviks used to avoid being accused of war
crimes was to accuse the Germans first. An archeological search at
Rumbula might produce some interesting results.
Emil Müller
news:1114226631.7...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
the German occupied areas:
"The evacuation saved a deciding majority of Jews of the Ukraine, White
Russia, Lithuania and Latvia. According to information from Witebsk, Riga
and other major cities, only a few Jews were left behind, when the Germans
came... This means that the majority of the Jews in these towns were saved
by the Soviet government in time." (Source: Sanning "Destruction.")
No wonder that they cannot not find any mass graves!
Eugene Holman
"morghus" <mor...@MailAndNews.com> wrote:
<deletions>
>
> I'm going from memory here, but I believe the storytellers claim that
> the Jewish victims at Rumbula were killed by Latvians using Russian
> weapons.
Don't go from memory if you have better sources available:
On the weapons used:
Source: http://www.ithaca.edu/faculty/ezergail/RumbulaR.pdf
<quote>
<deletions>
8) Russian submachine guns were used, because the clip had fifty bullets
and could be set on single shots [12];
********************
[12] Landgericht Hamburg: Jahnke¹s Trial Records, deposition of
Herbert, Georg, Wolfgang, Paul Degenhart. Degenhart is the main source for
the weapons used. Zingler in his testimony says that he had a Finnish
weapon, but, unless it could use the same ammunition as the Russian ones,
I think he is wrong. Deposition of Zingler, p. 6. Also see Arājs Trial
Records, p. 2133 a.
<deletions>
</quote>
On the killers:
<quote>
<deletions>
Jeckeln ordered his body guard, consisting of ten to twelve men, to do the
killing in the pits. Among them Endl, Lüschen, and Wedekind had done this
for Jeckeln before. To enlarge the killer team and obtain some reserves,
he asked the leader of his drivers' commando, Oberführer Johannes Zingler,
to participate in the executions. Jeckeln reminded Zingler of his recent
demotion and told him that he would prove himself by participating in the
killings. Zingler answered that he would prefer to go the front to prove
his worth. Jeckeln replied to Zingler that if he wanted to see his family,
he should obey the order. ³I knew what he could do to me² (Ich würde ihn
ja kennen), Zingler testified in 1961. ³He also pointed out to me that I
was not a regular soldier with him, but rather one who had something to
prove.²[19] Zingler agreed to participate.
Hoping to find some reserves for the killing team, Jeckeln summoned his
twelve-man detail of drivers to his Rīga Ritterhaus headquarters and
revealed to them that he needed an execution commando
(Erschiessungskommando). ³He made them understand that he had some people
who had already done something like that, but he needed some additional
men to lighten the load of the others. He asked for volunteers,
immediately adding, however, that he would not think badly of them if they
did not sign up because the job was unpleasant.²[20] None of the drivers
volunteered.[21]
Jeckeln did not consider Latvians for the assignment. First, as an SS man
he had to confront the German innere Schweinehund, and, further, the
resident German SD men did not recommend the Latvians. Paul Botor, a
transport officer with the KdS in Rīga, remembered a rumor that circulated
among the SD, that the Latvians were killing too slowly. ³The matter,²
Botor testified, ³was communicated to SS and Police Leader Jeckeln.
Jeckeln wanted to show with his marksmen that he could do better.²[22]
********************
[19] Arājs Trial Records, deposition of Zingler, p. 2133 a. Also see
Landgerich Hamburg: Indictment of Oberwinder et al., p. 61.
[20] Landgericht Hamburg: Indictment of Oberwinder et al. pp. 62-63.
[21] Jeckeln testified at his trial that the killing was done by ten to
twelve men. In other words, he did not find the reserves that he was
seeking.
[22] Arājs Trial Records, deposition of Botor, 26 October 1977, pp. 9227-28.
<deletions>
</quote>
< I don't think any serious search for graves was ever made at
> Rumbula.
You don't *think*?
Source: ibid.
<quote>
<deletions>
Reclaiming of Rumbula
Under the second Soviet domination of Latvia, Jewish culture was
suppressed.[96] Rumbula was not an event that the Soviets wanted to
commemorate. Up to 1960, the Rumbula grounds were completely neglected and
overgrown. Only in 1961 did young Jews of Rīga begin a search for the
location of Rumbula.[97] They found burned bones and other remains from
the massacre.[98] The grounds were in an especially disorderly shape
because in 1944 the Nazis had partly disinterred the victims to burn them.
******************
[96] Leonard Schroeter, The Last Exodus (New York: Universe Books,
1974), p. 61. This fact is corroborated by numerous other ex-Soviet
sources. Nora Levin, The Jews in the Soviet Union since 1917. Paradox of
Survival. Vol. II (New York: New York University Press, 1988), pp. 599-14;
Alla Rusinek, Like a Song. Like a Dream: A Soviet Girl's Quest for Freedom
(New York: Scribners, 1973), pp. 251-56; Vladimir Lazaris, ³The Saga of
Jewish Samizdat,² Soviet Jewish Affairs, Vol. 9, No. 1 (1979); David
Garber, ²Choir and Drama in Rīga,² Soviet Jewish Affairs, Vol. 4, No. 1
(1974), pp. 39-44; Mordecai Lapid, ³The Memorial at Rumbuli: A First Hand
Account,² Jewish Frontier, June 1971, pp. 10-19.
[97] Lapid, ³The Memorial at Rumbuli,² gives the most detailed
description of the Rumbula episode. Schroeter, The Last Exodus, bases his
version of an interview with Leah Bliner, a Rīga Zionist activist.
[98] Lapid, ³The Memorial at Rumbuli.²
<deletions>
</quote>
> Some people just started putting up monuments claiming
> thousands of Jews were killed and buried in mass graves. It's a
> typical technique of the German-hating holocaust promoters.
That's a pretty simplistic hypothesis.
Ghettoizing the Jews of Riga was a complex task, involving public
announcements, the construction of a ghetto, moving non-Jews out of the
ghetto area and Jews into it. Since more than 20,000 people were involved,
this generated vast amounts of paper work.
Liquidating the ghetto in two stages, on November 30 and December 8, 1941,
resulted in the shooting of hundreds of people in the ghetto on each day,
as well as of hundreds more people along the road from the ghetto to the
killing site. These killings were done in public in broad daylight and are
well documented, you can even see photgrpahs of them at the Museum of the
Occupation of Latvia
[http://www.occupationmuseum.lv/eng/about_us/welcome.html].
> But the claims that Russian weapons were used suggests, at least to me,
> that the Jewish Bolsheviks might have massacred some Latvians at
> Rumbula, just as they mass murdered the Polish intelligentsia at Katyn.
The Soviets had recently been chased out of Latvia, but their matériel
remained. Hardly surprising. Mainstream historians, whether Latvian,
German, or Russian, agree that the Rumbula massacre was carried out by the
Nazis under the supervision of SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln.
Additional corroberation is provided by the fact that only after the
inhabitants of the Riga ghetto had been liquidated did large scale
deportations of Central European Jews to Latvia begin in january, 1942.
They were, of course, housed in the ghetto or in concentration camps such
as Salaspils.
> One popular way the Bolsheviks used to avoid being accused of war
> crimes was to accuse the Germans first. An archeological search at
> Rumbula might produce some interesting results.
The problem is that the Germans were quite proud of the Rumbula massacre.
One reason that Jeckeln had been called in to do the job was to
demonstrate that Stahlecker had not been doing his best with respect to
implementing the Führerbefehl:
Source: ibid.
<quote>
<deletions>
The Arrival of Jeckeln
By October 1941 Stahlecker had only been able to kill about 30,000 of the
66,000 Jews that the Germans had trapped in Latvia. The reasons for
Stahlecker's failure to fulfill the fundamental orders are complex, but
they certainly include his preoccupation with Leningrad,[2] the failure
of Latvians to kill fast enough, and the early arrival of the Hinrich
Lohse's civilian government in Latvia. Lohse was not obligated to carry
out the Führer Befehl; his orders from Alfred Rosenberg were to raise the
productivity of the Ostland and to supply the army with daily necessities
and hardware. Lohse's program for the Jews was to drive them into the
ghettos, expropriate their property, and exploit their labor. Also
Hans-Adolf Prützman, the High commander of SS and the Police (HSSPF) in
the Baltic and Belarus, who, was in charge of the Jews after Stahlecker
moved east, played a passive role.[3]
***************
[2] According to his aide Dr. Emil Finnberg, Stahlecker was after a
Ritterkreutz, which he could only earn by participation in battles (Aråjs
Trial Records, deposition, 13 January 1960, SB I, p. 43).
[3] The role of Hans-Adolf Prützman, who died a suicide, has not been
studied or explained.
<deletions>
</quote>
You evidently are willing to concede that there was a massacre at Rumbula,
but suspect that the Soviets carried it out.
This alternative theory raises some interesting questions:
1. The Soviets were chased out of Latvia during the summer of 1941, but
the Rumbula massacre only took place during the early winter, on November
30 and December 8.
2. The victims of the Rumbula massacre were the inhabitants of the Riga
ghetto. The laws requiring the Jews of Riga to be registered and move to
the gheto were promlugated by the Nazis during the fall of 1941, long
after the Soviets had left.
3. SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, the man who organized the
massacre, had a fifty-man staff that worked in Riga for more than two
months organizing, and implementing the massacre, and then cleaning up,
storing, sorting, and either selling or shipping back to Germany the
personal property and assets of 25,000 people. This generated a vast
amount of paperwork, most of which is still in Latvian and German
archives.
4. The Rumbula massacre was the subject of several trials in Germany after
the war. Nobody based his defense on a claim that it never happened or
that the Soviets carried it out.
British Intelligence surreptitiously recorded a conversation in which
Sturmbannführer Walter Bruns, whose job it had been to collect valuables
in the pits, discusses Rumbula with fellow German POWs:
Source: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Bruns/CSDICb.html
<quote>
<deletions>
TRANSLATION
BRUNS: As soon as I heard those Jews were to be shot on Friday I went to a
21-year old boy and said that they had made themselves very useful in the
area under my command, besides which the Army MT park had employed 1500
and the 'Heeresgruppe' 800 women to make underclothes of the stores we
captured in RIGA; besides which about 1200 women in the neighbourhood of
RIGA were turning millions of captured sheepskins into articles we
urgently required: ear-protectors, fur caps, fur waistcoats, etc. Nothing
had been provided, as of course the Russian campaign was known to have
come to a victorious end in October 1941! In short, all those women were
employed in a useful capacity. I tried to save them. I told that fellow
ALTENMEYER(?) whose name I shall always remember and who will be added to
the list of war criminals: "Listen to me, they represent valuable
man-power!" 'Do you call Jews valuable human beings, sir?" I said: "Listen
to me properly, I said valuable man-power'. I didn't mention their value
as human beings." He said: "Well, they're to be shot in accordance with
the FÜHRER's orders ! I said: "FÜHRER's orders?" "Yes", whereupon he
showed me his orders. This happened at SKIOTAWA(?), 8 km. from RIGA,
between SIAULAI and JELGAVA, where 5000 BERLIN Jews were suddenly taken
off the train and shot. I didn't see that myself, but what happened at
SKIOTAWA(?) - to cut a long story short, I argued with the fellow and
telephoned to the General at HQ, to JAKOBS and ABERGER (?), and to a Dr.
SCHULTZ who was attached to the Engineer General, on behalf of these
people; I told him: "Granting that the Jews have committed a crime against
the other peoples of the world, at least let them do the drudgery; send
them to throw earth on the roads to prevent our heavy lorries skidding,"
"Then I'd have to feed them!" I said: "The little amount of food they
receive, let's assume 2 million Jews - they got 125 gr. of bread a day -
if we can't even manage that, the sooner we end the war the better." Then
I telephoned, thinking it would take some time. At any rate on Sunday
morning I heard that they
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BRUNS: had already started on it. The Ghetto was cleared and they were
told: "You're being transferred: take along your essential things."
Incidentally it was a happy release for those people, as their life in the
Ghetto was a martyrdom. I wouldn't believe it and drove there, to have a
look.
? : Everyone abroad knew about it; only we Germans were kept in ignorance.
BRUNS: I'll tell you something: some of the details may have been
correct, but it was remarkable that the firing squad detailed that morning
- six men with tommy-guns were posted at each pit; the pits were 24 m in
length and 3 m in breadth - they had to lie down like sardines in a tin,
with their heads in the centre. Above there were six men with tommy-guns
who gave them the coup de gr?ce. When I arrived those pits were so full
that the living had to lie down on top of the dead; then they were shot
and, in order to save room, they had to lie down neatly in layers. Before
this, however, they were stripped of everything at one of the stations -
here at the edge of the wood were the three pits they used that Sunday and
here they stood in a queue 1 1/2 km long which approached step by step - a
queueing up for death. As they drew nearer they saw what was going on.
About here they had to hand over their jewellery and suitcases. All good
stuff was put into the suit-cases and the remainder thrown on a heap. This
was to serve as clothing for our suffering population - and then a little
further on they had to undress and, 500 m in front of the wood, strip
completely; they were only permitted to keep on a chemise or knickers.
They were all women and small two year-old children. Then all those
cynical remarks! If only I had seen those tommy-gunners, who were relieved
every hour - because of over-exertion, carry out their task with distaste,
but no, nasty remarks like: "Here comes a Jewish beauty!" I can still see
it all in my memory: a pretty woman in a flame-coloured chemise. Talk
about keeping the race pure: at RIGA they first slept with them and then
shot them to prevent them from talking. Then I sent two officers out
there, one of whom is still alive, because I wanted eye-witnesses. " I
didn't tell them what was going on, but said: "Go out to the forest of
SKIOTAWA(?), see what's up there and send me a report." I added a
memorandum to their report and took it to JAKOBS myself. He said: "I have
already two complaints sent me by Engineer 'Bataillone' from the UKRAINE."
There they shot them on the brink of large crevices and let them fall down
into them; they nearly had an epidemic of plague, at any rate a
pestilential smell. They thought they could break off the edges with
picks, thus burying them. That loess there was so hard that two Engineer
'Bataillone' were required to dynamite the edges; those 'Battaillone'
complained. JAKOBS had received that complaint. He said: "We didn't quite
know how to tell the FÜHRER . We'd better do it through CANARIS." CANARIS
had the unsavoury task of waiting for the favourable moment to give the
FÜHRER certain gentle hints. A fortnight later I visited the
Oberbürgermeister or whatever he was called then, concerning some other
business. ALTENMEYER(?) triumphantly showed me: "Here is an order, just
issued, prohibiting mass-shootings on that scale from taking place in
future. They are to be carried out more discreetly." From warnings given
me recently I knew that I was receiving still more attentions from spies.
? : A wonder you're still alive.
BRUNS: At GÖTTINGEN, I expected to be arrested every day.
<deletions>
</quote>
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
<he...@helge.net> wrote:
> <snip />
>
> Logic and the holocau$t:
>
> <quote>
> >Since news of the massacre
> > was broadcast the same day on the BBC, Radio Sweden, and Radio Moscow,
> </quote>
>
> So we are being told that the news about the terrible massacre of jews
> reached the same day BBC, Radio Sweden and Radio Moscow - already in
> December 1941 !
This is something that can be easily verified by checking archives and
newspapers from that time. Nazi-occupied Riga was a relatively open port
city with consular officials, foreign correspondents, and foreign
intelligence agents. News of the public massacre of the Jews and ruthless
liquidation of the centrally located Riga ghetto on November 30 and
December 8, 1941, was discussed in the local and international media. See
http://www.am.gov.lv/en/news/Newsletters/History/4212/ for a link to the
speeches given by members of the Latvian government on the occasion of the
dedication of the mument at Rumbula. Legends and "stories" would hardly
generate responses of this type at such a high level of government.
> - but for some "strange" reason the news did not have
> any effect/impact on the another cca. 4 - 5 000 000 jews - they simply
> sat back and conveniently waited to become the holocau$t victims.
No they didn't. The Jews in Latvia were literally trapped. Some of them
had managed to escape with the withdrawing Soviet administration and
military, but many of them were anti-Soviet and could not imagine that the
Nazis could be worse than the Soviets had been. The Riga massacre was not
the first public mass murder of Latvian Jews, nor was it the last. During
the fall of 1941 the Jews of Daugavpils had been publicly massacred, and
slightly more than a week after the Rumbala massacre had been completed
the Jews of Liepāja were publicly massacred, thius massacre being
exceptionally well documented in photographs and film (see e.g.
http://www.holocaust-education.dk/holocaust/massemordetsovjetiskejoder.asp).
They did not "simply sit back", but they had few choices, since their
movements were controlled by strict curfews and prohibitions on using
public or private means of transportation.
> how stupid has someone to be to buy such crap ?
The Soviets arrested and deported hundreds of thousands of Balts after the
war, and the east German regime trapped its entire citizenry in August,
1961, by constructing the Berlin Wall. Trapping people and ensuring that
they will meet the fate that their oppressors have for them is something
any dictatorship worthy of the name knows how to do.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
<he...@helge.net> wrote:
> <snip />
> > On the other hand, from the very beginning of the invasion of the USSR it
> > was no secret that the special task forces, the Einsatzkommandos, that
> > followed the Wehrmacht, sometimes assisted by local fascist groupings such
> > as the Arājs Commando in Latvia, were publicly killing the Jewish men,
> > women, and children that the Wehrmacht had identified and assembled in the
> > countryside and smaller towns.
>
> That 's a lie.
Sez you.
Source: http://www.vip.lv/LPRA/EZERG_intr.html
<quote>
<deletions>
Most, if not all, other killing actions in Latvia involved a much smaller
number of participants. Jews were driven from the camps to the killing
grounds in groups of twenty to thirty, depending on the size of the
trucks. Upon arrival, the group was quickly killed. This method
required very few guards. One dozen guards would have sufficed. The
killing would be done by twenty to forty men, sometimes fewer. This was
the method used by Arajs commando in the Bikernieki murders and in most
small-town killings. The massacres in Liepaja and Daugavpils fell
somewhere in between, but in general the Bikernieki pattern was followed.
In comparison to Jeckeln's procedure and the conveyor-belt methods in the
killing camps of Poland, this was a slow process. Nevertheless, the
numbers added up: about one hundred Jews could be killed in one hour. It
would take about one day to kill 1,000 people. The Arajs team, traveling
in its infamous blue bus, on occasion stopped in several places on the
same day. Not all of the small-town Jews were killed by Arajs' men.
Sometimes the killing in places such Madona, Nereta, and Kuldiga, was done
by local policemen. That was an exception, and in the small towns of
Latvia the complicity of the Latvian policemen consisted of their standing
guard at the detention centers and the killing grounds. Perhaps no more
than 1,000 Latvian policemen, in addition to those in Riga, were involved
in the killings. Assigning responsibility to the local policemen is a
difficult if not impossible problem. The density of the population of
Jews in Latvia differed greatly from district to district. In localities
of high Jewish concentration the participation of Latvians could be
expected to be higher. But, those were also the cities most frequently
visited by the Arajs commando. Nine locations with the highest
concentration of Jews in Latvia accounted for about 85 percent of Latvian
Jews. Consequently, most of Latvia's policemen had no dealings at all with
Jews. Soviet propaganda has attempted to link the Schutzmannschaft
battalions to the killing of the Jews, but it must be noted that the first
of these battalions were organized only in late 1941 and early 1942, when
the Jews of Latvia were already dead.
<deletions>
</quote>
> None ever gave any orders, and none ever systematically
> killed "jewish men, women and children".
Tell that to SS-Standartenführer Karl Jäger, the author of the Jäger
Report,
http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/jaeger-report/htm/intro000.htm .
> SS and locals killed bandits [including jewish bandits] and
> jewish-bolsheviks and commisars. Local people were motivated because
> they wanted to retaliate for jewish-bolshewik crimes committed during
> the soviet occupation.
Source: http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/hiwis.html
<quote>
<deletions>
Latvian Hiwis were organised under the command of Viktors Arajs. By
mid-October 1941 more than 30,000 Latvian Jews had been killed by German
police and their Latvian auxiliaries grouped in Schutzmannschaft
Battalions. One such battalion, the 21st, executed 2,749 Jews on 15 - 17
December, 1941 on a beach near Liepaja (Liebau). The operation was
photographed and filmed by SS-Scharführer Carl Emil Strott (see * below).
In 1942, Latvian police battalions were active in the Ukraine,
Byelorussia and the Generalgouvernement. Among them was the Arajs
Kommando, which trained at a German SD school at Fürstenberg near Berlin.
Some members of this Kommando were sent to Minsk and took part in mass
killings at Maly Trostinec. In Warsaw, two battalions assisted in the
rounding-up of Jews for transport to Treblinka, guarding the
Umschlagplatz and taking part in the suppression of the Warsaw ghetto
uprising. In time, more than 100,000 Latvians were to wear a German
uniform.
Eugene Holman
<he...@helge.net> wrote:
<deletions>
>
> There was no Rumbula "massacre", and there was no holocau$t - it is a fraud.
The president of Lavia disagrees with you:
Source: http://www.am.gov.lv/en/news/speeches/2002/nov/3508/
<quote>
Address of the President of the Republic of Latvia, Vaira Vike-Freiberga,
on the occasion of the dedication of the memorial
to the victims of the Nazis at Rumbula
29 November 2002
Excellencies,
Rabbi,
Ladies and Gentlemen!
We have gathered here to dedicate a memorial to more than 25,000 persons
who were killed here on 30 November and 8 December 1941. This is one of
the darkest dates, perhaps the very darkest date, in Latvia's history; it
is the day when this site became marked by bloodshed and lamentation.
Thousands upon thousands of innocent people were brutally murdered here
merely because for centuries and millennia they had been faithful to their
ethnic identity and religion. They had faithfully served their god and
maintained the traditions of their forefathers.
The Holocaust, in its many forms, has painfully struck Latvia. Here in
Rumbula where the earthly remains of Latvia's Jews rest, we have come to
honour and remember them. I wish therefore to extend a special greeting to
the representatives of Latvia's Jewish community for whom this is special
day of mourning, all the more so since here lie their loved ones,
relatives, and members of their faith.
But this is also a day of mourning and commemoration for all of Latvia,
because these events took place on Latvia's soil and our people took part
in them. We know that this collective madness was organised by Himmler in
Berlin who called Friedrich Jaeckeln to come to Riga from Kiev since he
had already finished the monstrous massacre at Babij Yar. Tasked with the
liquidation of the Riga Ghetto, Jaeckeln personally selected the
murderers, riflemen from his staff, Germans whom he trusted and who were
given the choice of taking part or not taking part in this action. But
Jaeckeln also mobilized all of the SS and SD occupation forces, as well as
members of the Riga police, to surround the ghetto, vacate it, drive the
people on an eight-kilometre march to Rumbula, and then along the path of
death, which we have also walked today, to the big trenches that had been
dug by Russian prisoners of war.
This is an atrocious act of violence, an atrocious massacre. And it is our
duty, the duty of those of us who have survived, to pass on the
commemoration of these innocent victims to future generations, to remember
with compassion, sorrow and reverence. Our duty is to teach our children
and children's children about it, our duty is to seek out the survivors
and record their recollections, but, above all, our duty is to see that
this will never happen again.
All of us, throughout the world, must be on guard against manifestations
of enmity between nations and religions; we must be on guard against
intolerance, signs and activities of seeking a scapegoat. We must be on
guard against people who blame their suffering, disappointment and
complications, on some other, any other easily identifiable group, and
believe that with its annihilation the world will be in order. That is not
just discrimination and hatred, but insanity. What the men of the Nazi
occupation forces did here was insane: motivated by paranoia; these people
came here with weapons and tanks to seize power. In the future every one
of us must see that in no country can power be seized by the insane,
paranoid, those who are ready for massacres. Today we have all come here
to commemorate innocent victims, to recall their names - we don't even
know all of them but we shall try to find them - to remember their
suffering, and to bend our heads in the face of their suffering.
</quote>
So does the American ambassador to Latvia:
Source: http://www.usembassy.lv/EN/archives/carlsonsp/rumbula
<quote>
Remarks at Rumbula Memorial Dedication Ceremony, November 29, 2002
Riga Jewish Community Center
November 29, 2002
Today is about Rumbula and what happened there.
The eyewitnesses and the historians agree on what happened. In the
Rumbula forest on November 30 and December 8, 1941, 1,700 executioners
murdered more than 25,000 Jews. Of those 1,700 killers, between 1,000 and
1,500 were residents of Latvia drawn from the SD, precinct police, Riga
city police, battalion police being trained for military action in Russia,
and some 100 Latvian ghetto guards. The execution was carried out in the
most cruel and heartless way, under the direction of the Nazi Obergruppen
fuehrer Jeckeln.
The question of why human beings engage in such savagery is not only an
anthropological question. If we mean to safeguard civilization and
democracy, we have to examine the events and the participants, and we have
to understand its relevance to us and to our times.
Recently in Riga there has been discussion, especially in newspapers, of
how to describe the participants in the Rumbula killings. Some people say
that not all the Latvians were there voluntarily. Some say nothing done
in those times under Nazi occupation was "voluntary." Some say those were
complicated times. Some say that we should not mention the Latvian
participation, because it was not voluntary. Some say that we should
forget about the Latvian participation.
It is uncanny that some people are adopting the Nuremburg defense used by
the Nazis at their postwar trial. They too denied responsibility for
their actions, saying they were "just following orders."
How sad that anyone in todays free and democratic Latvia would excuse this
kind of crime by saying "it was a complicated time" or the executioners
were not "volunteers."
What we have learned from 20th century history is that no man has to
follow orders. Each of us has a moral and ethical obligation to do what
is right. We have the duty to recognize evil and immoral acts. We have
the duty to refuse to take part in them. We are all volunteers on this
earth.
And, how do we teach this morality, this internal ethical standard to our
children? We teach them the lessons of the past. We do not pretend that
evil never happens. We do not cover up the awful truth.
No, we print it in big letters and we make sure everyone reads it. We
make sure everyone knows that this was an evil that no one of us must ever
let happen again.
That is why we are here today. That is why a monument to the victims of
Rumbula matters. That is why it matters what we write on that monument.
It is the truth.
</quote>
Even SS-Obergruppenführer Jeckeln would have disagreed with you:
Source: http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/jeckeln.html
<quote>
The Interrogation of Friedrich Jeckeln
In his interrogation on 14 December 1945, (1) Minutes the Higher SS and
Police Leader Jeckeln detailed the operations that fell within the
framework of the Final Solution in the East:
The shootings were carried out under the direction of Colonel Dr. Lange,
Commander of the SD and Gestapo in Latvia. Knecht was in charge of
security at the liquidation sites. (2) I, Jeckeln, took part in the
shootings on three occasions; the same holds for Lange, Knecht, Lohse, and
Lieutenant Colonel Osis, commander of the traffic police in Riga.
Q: Who did the shooting?
A: Ten or twelve German SD soldiers.
Q: What was the procedure?
A: All of the Jews went by foot from the ghetto in Riga to the liquidation
site. Near the pits, they had to deposit their overclothes, which were
washed, sorted, and shipped back to Germany. Jews - men, women, and
children - passed through police cordons on their way to the pits, where
they were shot by German soldiers.
Q: Did you report the execution of the order to Himmler?
A: Yes, indeed. I notified Himmler by phone that the ghetto in Riga had
been liquidated. And then when I was in Lötzen, East Prussia, in December
1941, I reported in person, too. (3) Himmler was satisfied with the
results. He said that more Jewish convoys were due to arrive in Latvia,
and these were to be liquidated by me also.
Q: Go into more detail.
A: At the end of January 1942, (4) I was at Himmler's headquarters in
Lötzen, East Prussia, to discuss organizational matters regarding the
Latvian SS legions. There Himmler informed me that additional Jewish
convoys were due to arrive from the Reich and from other countries. The
destination point would be the Salaspils concentration camp, which lay one
and a quarter miles from Riga in the direction of Dünaburg. Himmler said
that he had not yet determined how he would have them exterminated:
whether to have them shot on board their convoys or in Salaspils, or
whether to chase them into the swamp somewhere.
Q: How was the matter resolved?
A: It was my opinion that shooting would be the simpler and quicker death.
Himmler said he would think it over and then give orders later through
Heydrich.
Q: What countries were the Jews in Salaspils brought from?
A: Jews were brought from Germany, France, Belgium,
Holland,Czechoslovakia, and from other occupied countries to the Salaspils
camp. To give a precise count of the Jews in the Salaspils camp would be
difficult. In any case, all the Jews from the camp were exterminated. But
I would like to make an additional statement while we are on this topic.
Q: What statement would you like to make?
A: I would like to say for the record that Göring shares in the guilt for
the liquidations of Jewish convoys that arrived from other countries. In
the first half of February 1942 I received a letter from Heydrich. In this
letter he wrote that Reich Marshall Göring had gotten himself involved in
the Jewish question, and that Jews were now being shipped to the East for
annihilation only with Göring's approval.
Q: This does not diminish your guilt. Describe your role in the Jewish
liquidations in Salaspils.
A: I have already said that I discussed the extermination of Jews in
Salaspils with Himmler in Lötzen. That alone makes me an accessory to this
crime. Beyond that, Jews were shot in Salaspils camp by forces recruited
from my SD and Security Police units. The commander of the SD and Gestapo
in Latvia, Lieutenant Colonel Dr. Lange, was directly in charge of the
shootings. Other officers who reported to me on the shooting of Jews in
the camp were the commander of the SD and Gestapo in the Baltic States,
Major General Jost; Colonel of Police Pifrader; and Colonel of Police
Fuchs.
Q: Specifically, what did they report to you?
A: They reported that two to three convoys of Jews were to arrive per
week, all subject to liquidation.
Q: Then the number of Jews shot in Salaspils ought to be known too, isn't
that correct?
A: Yes, of course. I can give you the approximate figures. The first
Jewish convoys arrived in Salaspils in November 1941. Then, in the first
half of 1942, convoys arrived at regular intervals. I believe that in
November 1941, no more than three convoys arrived in all, but during the
next seven months, from December 1941 to June 1942, eight to twelve
convoys arrived each month. Overall, in eight months, no less than
fifty-five and no more than eighty-seven Jewish convoys arrived in camp.
Given that each convoy carried a thousand men, that makes a total of
55,000 to 87,000 Jews exterminated in the Salaspils camp.
Q: This figure sounds low. Are you telling the truth?
A: I have no other, more exact figures. It should be added, however, that
before my arrival in Riga, a significant number of Jews in the Ostland and
in White Ruthenia were exterminated. I was informed of this fact. (5)
Q: By whom, specifically?
Stahlecker; Prützmann; Lange; Major General Schröder, the SS and Police
Leader in Latvia; Major General Möller, the SS and Police Leader in
Estonia; and Major General Wysocki, the SS and Police Leader in Lithuania.
Q: Be specific. What did they report?
A: Schröder reported to me that over and above those Jews who had been
exterminated in the ghetto in Riga an additional 70,000 to 100,000 Jews
were exterminated in Latvia. Dr. Lange directly oversaw these shootings.
Möller reported that in Estonia everything was in order as far as the
Jewish question was concerned. The Estonian Jewish population was
insignificant, all in all about 3,000 to 5,000 and this was reduced to
nil. The greater part were exterminated in Reval. Wysocki reported that
100,000 to 200,000 Jews were exterminated - shot - in Lithuania, on
Stahlecker's orders. In Lithuania, the Jewish exterminations were overseen
by the commander of the SD and Gestapo, Lieutenant Colonel of Police
Jäger. Later Jäger told me that he had become neurotic as a result of
these shootings. Jäger was pensioned off and left his post for treatment.
All told, the number of Jews exterminated in the actions in the Baltic
East reached somewhere in the vicinity of 190,500 to 253,000. (6)
(1) Minutes from Jeckeln's interrogation on 14 December 1945 (Major
Zwetajew, interrogator; Sergeant Suur, interpreter), pp. 8 - 13,
Historical State Archives, Riga.
(2) Max Knecht was the commander of the municipal police in Latvia.
(3) I.e., to Himmler's "Hochwald" headquarters in Lötzen.
(4) I.e., 25 January 1942, 11:30 A.M. - 1:00 p.m.; per RFSS appointments
book, NS 19DC/vorl. 12, Bundesarchiv, Koblenz.
On the same day Himmler made the following handwritten entry, re: his
telephone conversation "from the Wolfsschanze 17 [i.e., 5:00 P.M.] SS
Gr.F. Heydrich Prague: Jews into concentration camps"NS 19/neu 1439
Bundesarchiv, Koblenz.
(5) Jeckeln was promoted on 31 October 1941 to Higher SS and Police Leader
for northern Russia (H.Q. Riga); Jeckeln personnel file, Berlin Document
Center. A second promotion to the rank of Leader of the SS Upper Section,
"Ostland," occurred on 11 December 1941 (Bundesarchiv, Koblenz [NS 19
neu/2846]).
(6) In reply to telegram number 1331 from the Security Police of Riga
(dated 6 February 1942), SS-Standartenführer Karl Jäger reported the
following from Kovno on 9 February 1942: "Re: executions through 1
February 1942, by the Einsatzkommando 3A: Jews 136,421. Total: 138,272, of
these, women: 55,556; children: 34,464" (Institut für Zeitgeschichte
3253/63 Fb 76 [a]).
Fleming, Gerald. Hitler and the Final Solution. Berkeley: University of
California Press. 1984. pp. 95 - 98
</quote>
If you have information that proves that they are wrong, or even worse,
lying, do you not have the responsibility to make it known to the media
and the relevant authorities?
Watch Helge run, folks.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
EmilM...@yahoo.com
I posted before:
Friedrich Jeckeln was interrogated by Major Zwetajew of the Soviet
agency SMERSH, the same people who interrogated German Wehrmacht
officers about the Katyn massacre, found them guilty and subsequently
hanged them publicly in
Leningrad.
Jeckeln's statements are worthless.
Holman: "Jeckeln left a massive paper trail behind him. Himmler's
diaries contain
entires dealing with the mass-shootings, "Exekutionen", in Riga"
I asked: " I have a copy of Himmler's Dienstkalender. Could you
specify the page number or the calender date?"
No answer frm Holman!
EmilM...@yahoo.com
> In article <1114252290.0...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
[...]
> Reclaiming of Rumbula
>
> Under the second Soviet domination of Latvia, Jewish culture was
> suppressed.[96] Rumbula was not an event that the Soviets wanted to
> commemorate. Up to 1960, the Rumbula grounds were completely
neglected and
the
> location of Rumbula.[97] They found burned bones and other remains
from
> the massacre.[98] The grounds were in an especially disorderly
shape
> because in 1944 the Nazis had partly disinterred the victims to burn
them.
>
Young Jews of Riga found some burned bones. Can we have some more
details about this excavation? Ezergailis (and presumably also Mr.
Holman) seems to rely heavily on secondary sources, here: Lapid 'The
Memorial at Rumbuli'.
helge
> In article <4268da26$1...@galaxy.uncensored-news.com>, helge
> <he...@helge.net> wrote:
>
> <deletions>
>
>>There was no Rumbula "massacre", and there was no holocau$t - it is a fraud.
>
>
> The president of Lavia disagrees with you:
<snip holocau$t propaganda crap />
according to your type of "evidence", one needs only to present opinions
/writings of catholic church officials in order to "prove" that the
witches existed and the holy iquisition was right.
the fact is that no REAL - material/forensic evidence exist to support
the lies about 25 000 jews killed at Rumbula. the Rumbula massacre is a
lie, as is the rest of the holocau$t.
helge
blah-blah-blah, you can copy & paste here 1000s of lines written by
holocau$t propagandists - it won't change the facts. you are not able to
present any orders/proof about "systematic" killing of "jewish men,
women and children" - no such thing ever happened. the holocau$t is fraud.
helge
you are not responding to my post [as usually]. jews in Europe were not
"trapped" from 1941 - 1944.
If jews knew as early as 1941 that they are being "exterminated" they
would hardly sit back and wait. Take for example the famous lies about
the "extermination" of Hungarian jews in 1944 ! you do want people to
believe that as early as 1941 "everyone knew" that jews are being
exterminated but the Hungarian jews just sat back and waited till
1944 !
so my question remains the same: how stupid has someone to be to buy
such crap ?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Eugene Holman
EmilM...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Holman's heavy reliance on the anti-revisionist Ezergailis is noted. As
> I posted before:
> Friedrich Jeckeln was interrogated by Major Zwetajew of the Soviet
> agency SMERSH, the same people who interrogated German Wehrmacht
> officers about the Katyn massacre, found them guilty and subsequently
> hanged them publicly in
> Leningrad.
> Jeckeln's statements are worthless.
Why?
The fact that Jeckeln had a record of mass murder in Ukraine and was then
called to Latvia and eventually appointed head police officer in German
occupied Ostland is an indisputable historical fact. Major Zwatajew might
have presided over some dishonest trials, but that does not automatically
make everything that Jeckeln confessed to "worthless". Jeckeln presided
over a bureaucracy that officiously produced abundant amounts of
documents, including those generated by the registration of Jews and their
property, the establishment, sealing off, and administration of the Jewish
ghetto in central Riga, the organization and implementation of the Rumbula
massacre, and the classification, evaluation, storage, and disposal of the
property and assets left behind by the more than 24,000 murdered Jews.
There is no disputing the facts that:
1. Nazi Germany invaded Latvia and, with the help of Latvian
collaborators, immediately started assembling and killing Jews in the
countryside and small towns.
2. The Germans captured Riga and declared a variant of the Nuremberg Laws
in force. Latvian Jews were deprived of their citizenship and civil
rights, forced to register, and eventually consigned to the ghetto.
3. SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, who had supervised many mass
execuions in the Ukraine, was summoned to Riga by Heinrich Himmler
[Landgericht Hamburg: Urteil gegen Jahnke, p. 54. The order to kill the
Jews of Rīga is also examined by Fleming, *Hitler and the Final Solution*,
Chapters 7 and 8.]
4. Most of the 24,000 inhabitants of the Riga ghetto were marched along
Moscow Road [Maskvas Iela] to the killing site, where trench-like graves
had been dug by Soviet POWs, on November 30 and December 8, 1941. The
march began at 6 in the morning and ended after nightfall. It was done in
full public view, and people who attempted to escape or who could not keep
up were shot in cold blood and left lying along the road until their
bodies were picked up hours later. Several hundred people in the ghetto
were shot on both days for insubordination or because they were unable or
unwilling to join the march to the killing site.
5. The property of the murdred Jews was collected, sorted, stored and
evaluated, and then sold off or shipped to Germany.
6. An operation of this complexity requires careful planning and finely
tuned logistics. Approximately 1,500 people participated as guards,
property gatherers, drivers, interpreters, or marksmen.
SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, whose fifty-man headquarters was
housed in the Riga Ritterhaus, was responsible for organizing and
implementing the massacre.
7. Jeckeln reported to Himmler by telephone, and then later in person, at
Lötzen in late December, 1941, that the job had been completed
successfully.
For a notation in Himmler's diary shortly after the first phase of the
Rumbula massacre see http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Note041241.html .
Source: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/
<quote>
<deletions>
British codebreakers intercepted Dec 1, 1941 code messages from Himmler
ordering the SS murderer Jeckeln to report to Headquarters, to be
reprimanded for overstepping the guidelines in liquidating thousands of
German Jews at Riga on Nov 30, 1941
<deletions>
</quote>
Note: a trainload of approximately 1,000 Jews from Berlin had arrived at
the Rumbula station in the early morning of November 30, 1941. They were
the first to be awakened, marched to the killing site, made to lie down in
pre-dug graves, and shot. These Berlin Jews were all dead by the time the
first Jews from the ghetto had arrived at 9.00 AM. Later that day Himmler
had telephoned to Heydrich ordering that the trainload of Jews from Berlin
not be liquidated, but it was too late, they had already been shot. See
below.
> Holman: "Jeckeln left a massive paper trail behind him. Himmler's
> diaries contain
> entries dealing with the mass-shootings, "Exekutionen", in Riga"
See, e.g. http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Note301141b.html .
There the entry for 13:30 includes a telephone call to Obergruppenführer
Heydrich in Prague, the man who at that time was macromanaging the
Holocaust, that includes "Judentransport aus Berlin. Keine Liquidierung."
Obviously, Himmler knew that a transport of Jews had been sent to Riga to
be liquidated, and he was trying to prevent this, although this time he
was a few hours too late. What better proof could there be of the planned
and coordinated nature of the Holocaust?
>
> I asked: " I have a copy of Himmler's Dienstkalender. Could you
> specify the page number or the calender date?"
>
> No answer frm Holman!
See http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Note011241.html, where the entry for
13:15 includes "Exekutionen in Riga".
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
<he...@helge.net> wrote:
> Eugene Holman wrote:
> > In article <4268dc37$1...@galaxy.uncensored-news.com>, helge
<deletions>
> >
> >
> > The Soviets arrested and deported hundreds of thousands of Balts after the
> > war, and the east German regime trapped its entire citizenry in August,
> > 1961, by constructing the Berlin Wall. Trapping people and ensuring that
> > they will meet the fate that their oppressors have for them is something
> > any dictatorship worthy of the name knows how to do.
>
> you are not responding to my post [as usually]. jews in Europe were not
> "trapped" from 1941 - 1944.
Most of them were. Deprived of citizenship, they had no travel documents.
In most of the countries occupied by Germany they were subject to strict
curfews and were not allowed to use any means of transportation or
communication. Sparsely settled Norway, from which many local Jews were
able to sneak over the border to Sweden, and "model protectorate" Denmark,
where a German sympathizer tipped the local Jewish community off that they
were to be arrested and deported, allowing almost all of them to escape to
Sweden hidden in fishing boats, stand out as exceptions.
Most European Jews in Nazi-occupied were trapped, with no means of escape.
Why would people such as the Frank family, who had already escaped Nazism
once by fleeing to the Netherlands, have gone to such lengths to hide if
there had been a way out?
> If jews knew as early as 1941 that they are being "exterminated" they
> would hardly sit back and wait. Take for example the famous lies about
> the "extermination" of Hungarian jews in 1944 !
What "famous lies"? Are you denying that Adoplf Eichmann was having
Hungarian Jews deported to Auschwitz, that Swedish diplomat Raoul
Wallenberg and his staff issued Swedish travel documents to tens of
thousands of them, tus rescuing them, or that the Hungarian government
eventually heeded the appeal of the Swedish king and stopped the
transports of Jews to Auschwitz?
> you do want people to
> believe that as early as 1941 "everyone knew" that jews are being
> exterminated but the Hungarian jews just sat back and waited till
> 1944 !
Everybody "didn't" know in 1941, but many people did. It was a war, and
restrictions on movement and information applied. The Hungarian Jews were
pawns to German policy. Germany tended to leave Jews alone in countries
that were actively allied with it, such as Norway, Denmark, Finland,
Hungary, and Bulgaria. In Norway the local SS chief on his own initiative
had most of the small Jewish community suddenly rounded up and deported to
Germany, where almost all of them perished. In Finland Jews fought
alongside Nazis against a common enemy, the Soviet Union, but the Germans
had a plan to arrest and deport Finnish Jews should the need arise, and
the Finnish Jews had an escape plan if the Germans were to start arresting
them. The Jews of Hungary were left in relative peace as long as Hungary
remained a loyal German ally, but they were quickly identified, arrested,
and deported according to a plan drawn up in advance when Germany invaded
Hungary subsequent to a government change and efforts to extricate Hungary
from the war. German presssure on Bulgaria to hand over its Jews
precipitated a government crisis. Bulgaria never handed over any of its
Jews to the Nazis, despite considerable economnic and diplomatic pressure,
but it did deliver more than 10,000 Greek Jews to the Nazis from occupied
Thrace in compensation.
>
> so my question remains the same: how stupid has someone to be to buy
> such crap ?
As stupid as someone had to be to be trapped behind the Berlin Wall on
August 15, 1961.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
<he...@helge.net> wrote:
> Eugene Holman wrote:
> > In article <4268da26$1...@galaxy.uncensored-news.com>, helge
> > <he...@helge.net> wrote:
> >
> > <deletions>
> >
> >>There was no Rumbula "massacre", and there was no holocau$t - it is a fraud.
> >
> >
> > The president of Lavia disagrees with you:
>
> <snip holocau$t propaganda crap />
>
> according to your type of "evidence", one needs only to present opinions
> /writings of catholic church officials in order to "prove" that the
> witches existed and the holy iquisition was right.
Heads of state and ambassadors do not, as a rule, put themselves out on
limbs. If you are accusing President Vike-Freiberga and His Excllency
Ambassador Carlson of commemorating "holocau$t propaganda crap" you have
to justify your position, considering that you are in a far weaker
positionb than they are.
> the fact is that no REAL - material/forensic evidence exist to support
> the lies about 25 000 jews killed at Rumbula. the Rumbula massacre is a
> lie, as is the rest of the holocau$t.
Killing off 25,000 people within the course of eight days necessarily
generates all kinds of evidence. Forensic evidence is merely one kind of
evidence. The records generated dealing with the assets and property of
25,000 people who are suddenly killed are quite reliable as evidence of
mass murder. There is no forensic evidence that many of the victims of the
recent tsunami, but conclusions can be drawn about people known to have
been vacationing in Thailand, Sri lanks, and other countries hit who did
not check out of their hotel or collect their possessions, were not on
their scheduled return flight, have not been located in a local hospital,
did not show up for work or school, and have not been seen or heard of
since December 26, 2004.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
> Eugene Holman wrote:
> > In article <4268da26$1...@galaxy.uncensored-news.com>, helge
> > <he...@helge.net> wrote:
> >
> > <deletions>
> >
> >>There was no Rumbula "massacre", and there was no holocau$t - it is a fraud.
> >
> >
> > The president of Lavia disagrees with you:
>
> <snip holocau$t propaganda crap />
>
> according to your type of "evidence", one needs only to present opinions
> /writings of catholic church officials in order to "prove" that the
> witches existed and the holy iquisition was right.
Heads of state and ambassadors do not, as a rule, put themselves out on
limbs. If you are accusing President Vike-Freiberga and His Excellency
Ambassador Carlson of commemorating "holocau$t propaganda crap", you have
to justify your position, considering that you are in a far weaker
position than they are. If you know that they have been deceived, it is
your civic duty to bring this to their and our attention.
> the fact is that no REAL - material/forensic evidence exist to support
> the lies about 25 000 jews killed at Rumbula. the Rumbula massacre is a
> lie, as is the rest of the holocau$t.
Killing off 25,000 people within the course of eight days necessarily
generates all kinds of evidence. Forensic evidence is merely one kind of
evidence. The records generated dealing with the assets and property of
25,000 people who are suddenly killed are quite reliable as evidence of
mass murder.
There is no forensic evidence that many of the victims of the recent
tsunami were killed, but conclusions can be drawn about people known to
have been vacationing in Thailand, Sri Lanka, and other countries hit who
did not check out of their hotel or collect their possessions, were not on
their scheduled return flight, have not been located in a local hospital,
did not show up for work or school, and have not been seen or heard from
since December 26, 2004. History does not rest solely on forensic
evidence, neither is forensic evidence necessarily in a privileged
position with respect to other kinds of evidence. Like all evidence,
forensic evidence must be interpreted and fit into a wider context if it
is to be of any value.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
EmilM...@yahoo.com
> In article <426d0b41$1...@galaxy.uncensored-news.com>, helge
> <he...@helge.net> wrote:
>
>
> Killing off 25,000 people within the course of eight days necessarily
> generates all kinds of evidence. Forensic evidence is merely one kind
of
> evidence. The records generated dealing with the assets and property
of
> 25,000 people who are suddenly killed are quite reliable as evidence
of
> mass murder.
Of course the deportation of Jews to the Soviet Union (80% of the
Latvian Jewish population was deported according to Sanning/Bergelson)
would also necessitate paperwork dealing with their assets and property
left behind. Holman and Ezergailis seems to be obsessed with the
killing of people.
Eugene Holman
EmilM...@yahoo.com wrote:
The Rumbula massacre was not just an isolated incident. It marked a
turning point in the implementation of the Holocaust. The complexity of
the logistics, the extremely public manner in which it was carried out
marked, and the bad vibes thus generated among the local population, meant
a turning point in the Holocaust. No mass killings on this scale take
place any more. In the future mass killing was to be centralized, made
more selective, and implemented behind closed doors.
Himmler was highly displeased with the November 30 action in Riga.
Here are translations (the originals are available at
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/decodes_RFSS011241.html) of
communication between Himmler and Jeckeln in which Himmler orders Jeckeln
to explain his actions and reprimands him for violating the guidelines for
the treatment of Jews in Ostland:
<quote>
ZIP/GPD 471/4.12.41: German Police Decodes, No. 2, Traffic 1.12.41
[...]
No. 24: OEJ from DSQ SSD DSQ No 3 1930 2 parts 175 71 SPK1 3742
SS Obergruppenführer JECKELN, Senior SS and Police Commander, Ostland
[Baltic Provinces], RIGA. The Reichsführer SS [HIMMLER] summons you to him
for a conference on 4.12.41. Please state when you will arrive here and by
what means you will be travelling (on account of being fetched). (Sgd.)
[Werner] GROTHMANN, SS Hauptsturmführer and Adjutant [of Himmler]
No. 25: OEJ from DSQ SSD DSQ No 4 1930 2 parts 177 75 SPK1 3742
SS Obergruppenführer JECKELN, Senior SS and Police Commander, Ostland
[Baltic Provinces], RIGA. The Jews being resettled in the Ostland region
are to be treated only in accordance with the guidelines laid down by
myself or by the Reich Security Main Office. I will punish those who act
on their own authority or in contravention [of the guidelines]. (Sgd. H
HIMMLER)"
</quote>
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
Wallenberg and his staff were issuing Swedish travel documents to tens of
thousands of them, thus rescuing them, or that the Hungarian government
eventually heeded the appeal of the Swedish king and stopped the
transports of Jews to Auschwitz?
> you do want people to
> believe that as early as 1941 "everyone knew" that jews are being
> exterminated but the Hungarian jews just sat back and waited till
> 1944 !
Everybody "didn't" know in 1941, but many people did. It was a war, and
restrictions on movement and information applied. The Hungarian Jews were
pawns to German policy. Germany tended to leave Jews alone in countries
that were actively allied with it, such as Norway, Denmark, Finland,
Italy, Hungary, and Bulgaria. In Norway the local SS chief on his own
Eugene Holman
> Eugene Holman wrote:
> > In article <4268dc37$1...@galaxy.uncensored-news.com>, helge
<deletions>
> >
> >
> > The Soviets arrested and deported hundreds of thousands of Balts after the
> > war, and the east German regime trapped its entire citizenry in August,
> > 1961, by constructing the Berlin Wall. Trapping people and ensuring that
> > they will meet the fate that their oppressors have for them is something
> > any dictatorship worthy of the name knows how to do.
>
> you are not responding to my post [as usually]. jews in Europe were not
> "trapped" from 1941 - 1944.
Most of them were. Deprived of citizenship, they had no travel documents.
In most of the countries occupied by Germany they were subject to strict
curfews and were not allowed to use any means of transportation or
communication. Sparsely settled Norway, from which many local Jews were
able to sneak over the border to Sweden, and "model protectorate" Denmark,
where a German sympathizer tipped the local Jewish community off that they
were to be arrested and deported, allowing almost all of them to escape to
Sweden hidden in fishing boats, stand out as exceptions.
Most European Jews in Nazi-occupied Europe were indeed trapped, with no
means of escape. Why would people such as the Frank family, who had
already escaped Nazism once by fleeing to the Netherlands, have gone to
such lengths to hide if there had been an easier way out?
> If jews knew as early as 1941 that they are being "exterminated" they
> would hardly sit back and wait. Take for example the famous lies about
> the "extermination" of Hungarian jews in 1944 !
What "famous lies"? Are you denying that Adolf Eichmann was having
helge
>>If jews knew as early as 1941 that they are being "exterminated" they
>>would hardly sit back and wait. Take for example the famous lies about
>>the "extermination" of Hungarian jews in 1944 !
>
>
> What "famous lies"? Are you denying that Adoplf Eichmann was having
> Hungarian Jews deported to Auschwitz, that Swedish diplomat Raoul
> Wallenberg and his staff were issuing Swedish travel documents to tens of
> thousands of them, thus rescuing them, or that the Hungarian government
> eventually heeded the appeal of the Swedish king and stopped the
> transports of Jews to Auschwitz?
really interesting that a "linguist" is not able to comprehend a
sentence - i clearly said:
"Take for example the famous *lies about the "extermination"* of
Hungarian jews in 1944"
*LIES ABOUT EXTERMINATION*
<snip />
helge
oh, really ? didn't you forget that your jewish "victims" knew about
the "extermination of jews" as early as 1941 ?!? you know it was a well
known fact trumpeted the same day on BBC and other radio stations.
None has ever heard that Germans in Berlin were told *3 years in
advance* that there is going to be a wall built. So your comparisson is
shallow like your propaganda and lies.
> Regards,
> Eugene Holman
helge
>>according to your type of "evidence", one needs only to present opinions
>>/writings of catholic church officials in order to "prove" that the
>>witches existed and the holy iquisition was right.
>
>
> Heads of state and ambassadors do not, as a rule, put themselves out on
> limbs.
of course they do: Stalin, Leonid Breznev, Nixon, Clinton, G.W.Bush -
just to name a few of them were/are all liars.
their "truth" is "political truth" and holocau$t propaganda falls into
the same category: the "truth" about Iraqs mobile labs for producing
chemical weapons is as true as the "truth" about German "gas vans" or
"extermination camps" - it is the same lie by the same liars...
> If you are accusing President Vike-Freiberga and His Excellency
> Ambassador Carlson of commemorating "holocau$t propaganda crap", you have
> to justify your position, considering that you are in a far weaker
> position than they are.
> If you know that they have been deceived, it is
> your civic duty to bring this to their and our attention.
>
Freedom of Speech restricting-totalitarian laws are stopping people from
doing that.
Your request is ridiculous and cynical - exactly the same as if you were
suggesting to a person in former/existing totalitarian country to go and
fulfill his/her "civic duty".
>
>>the fact is that no REAL - material/forensic evidence exist to support
>>the lies about 25 000 jews killed at Rumbula. the Rumbula massacre is a
>>lie, as is the rest of the holocau$t.
>
>
> Killing off 25,000 people within the course of eight days necessarily
> generates all kinds of evidence.
yes but there was no "Killing off 25,000 people within the course of
eight days" - that is the reason why you are not able to present any
forensic evidence.
> Forensic evidence is merely one kind of
> evidence. The records generated dealing with the assets and property of
> 25,000 people who are suddenly killed are quite reliable as evidence of
> mass murder.
>
> There is no forensic evidence that many of the victims of the recent
> tsunami were killed,
None ever ask you to present 25 000 dead bodies, the problem is that you
are not able to present forensic evidence about killing of even 5000!
> but conclusions can be drawn about people known to
> have been vacationing in Thailand, Sri Lanka, and other countries hit who
> did not check out of their hotel or collect their possessions, were not on
> their scheduled return flight, have not been located in a local hospital,
> did not show up for work or school, and have not been seen or heard from
> since December 26, 2004.
yes but we do have all kinds of photographs of the tsunami,
seismological data about the earthquake, etc. - that is the base for
drawing conclusions. no such base exist for your alleged holocau$t.
> History does not rest solely on forensic
> evidence, neither is forensic evidence necessarily in a privileged
> position with respect to other kinds of evidence. Like all evidence,
> forensic evidence must be interpreted and fit into a wider context if it
> is to be of any value.
>
you do not have any forensic evidence - you simply do not have anything
to "interpret". according to your lies apx. 1 000 000 - 1 500 000 jews
were killed in Eastern Europe - the existing/available forensic evidence
hardly supports couple of hundreds. none would ever ask question if the
forensic evidence was supporting at least 1/3 of your claims cca. 300
000 victims.
> Regards,
> Eugene Holman
there was no holocau$t.
Eugene Holman
<he...@helge.net> wrote:
> <snip />
> >>If jews knew as early as 1941 that they are being "exterminated" they
> >>would hardly sit back and wait. Take for example the famous lies about
> >>the "extermination" of Hungarian jews in 1944 !
> >
> >
> > What "famous lies"? Are you denying that Adoplf Eichmann was having
> > Hungarian Jews deported to Auschwitz, that Swedish diplomat Raoul
> > Wallenberg and his staff were issuing Swedish travel documents to tens of
> > thousands of them, thus rescuing them, or that the Hungarian government
> > eventually heeded the appeal of the Swedish king and stopped the
> > transports of Jews to Auschwitz?
>
> really interesting that a "linguist" is not able to comprehend a
> sentence - i clearly said:
>
> "Take for example the famous *lies about the "extermination"* of
> Hungarian jews in 1944"
>
> *LIES ABOUT EXTERMINATION*
And I ask you: what *lies* about the extermination of Hungarian Jews in 1944?
€ Do you regard the claim that 148 trainloads containing a total of
437,000 Hungarian Jews were deported to Auschwitz to be a lie?
€ Do you regard the claim that Adolf Eichmann was responsible for
coordinating these deportations to be a lie?
€ Do you regard the claim that Swedish diplomat Raoul Wallenberg issued
Swedish travel documents to almost 100,000 Hungarian Jews, thus allowing
them free passage out of German controlled territory, to be a lie?
€ Do you regard the claim that Swedish King, Gustav V, appealed directly
to the Hungarian head of state, Miklós Horthy, in July, 1944, to stop the
deportations of Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz to be a lie?
A simple "yes" or "no" response will suffice.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
<he...@helge.net> wrote:
<deletions>
> >
> >>so my question remains the same: how stupid has someone to be to buy
> >>such crap ?
> >
> >
> > As stupid as someone had to be to be trapped behind the Berlin Wall on
> > August 15, 1961.
> >
>
> oh, really ? didn't you forget that your jewish "victims" knew about
> the "extermination of jews" as early as 1941 ?!? you know it was a well
> known fact trumpeted the same day on BBC and other radio stations.
Correct. There was absolutely nothing they could have done about it. They
were trapped in a sealed and well-guarded ghetto. Their money and assets
had been confiscated. They were not allowed to use any means of
transporation. They lacked both travel documents and citizenship. They had
no option of escaping to the Soviet Union as many prescient Latvian Jews
had done during the first days after the German attacked in June. The Jews
who remained in the ghetto after the November 30 massacre knew what fate
awaited them, but there was nothing that they could do to avoid it except
make a run for it on the day when they were awakened and ordered to march
from the ghetto to the killing site. Many of them, their number is in the
hundreds, did make a run for it, and most of them were shot dead along
Moscow Road by the guards and policemen who were posted along the route.
> None has ever heard that Germans in Berlin were told *3 years in
> advance* that there is going to be a wall built. So your comparisson is
> shallow like your propaganda and lies.
Oh, come on! The East Germans knew that theirs was the only country in the
eastern bloc whose borders had not been sealed, and that this situation
could not last forever. Even during the few first days after August 15,
when the wall was still mostly barbed wire and many escape opportunities
existed, a very small number of people actually took the risk and escaped.
These included the famous Vopo who jumped to his freedom from to the West,
people who were lowered down to the West along ropes from windows, people
who swam across the River Spree, and people who dug tunnels. The
overwhelming majority of East Germans, though, including those building
the wall and those guarding the builders, stayed put.
In German-held territory, the two great Jewish revolts, the one in the
Warsaw ghetto in April, 1943, and the one at the Sobibor death camp, on
October 14, 1943, resulted in almost all of those who either participated
in the revolt or actually managed to escape eventually being ruthlessly
killed by the Nazis.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
helge
> In article <426e6...@galaxy.uncensored-news.com>, helge
> <he...@helge.net> wrote:
>
>
>><snip />
>>
>>>>If jews knew as early as 1941 that they are being "exterminated" they
>>>>would hardly sit back and wait. Take for example the famous lies about
>>>>the "extermination" of Hungarian jews in 1944 !
>>>
>>>
>>>What "famous lies"? Are you denying that Adoplf Eichmann was having
>>>Hungarian Jews deported to Auschwitz, that Swedish diplomat Raoul
>>>Wallenberg and his staff were issuing Swedish travel documents to tens of
>>>thousands of them, thus rescuing them, or that the Hungarian government
>>>eventually heeded the appeal of the Swedish king and stopped the
>>>transports of Jews to Auschwitz?
>>
>>really interesting that a "linguist" is not able to comprehend a
>>sentence - i clearly said:
>>
>>"Take for example the famous *lies about the "extermination"* of
>>Hungarian jews in 1944"
>>
>>*LIES ABOUT EXTERMINATION*
>
>
> And I ask you: what *lies* about the extermination of Hungarian Jews in 1944?
>
hmm, so this is already second time that our well educated "linguist" is
having problems to comprehend the expression "extermination"
> € Do you regard the claim that 148 trainloads containing a total of
> 437,000 Hungarian Jews were deported to Auschwitz to be a lie?
yes - it is a lie: holocau$t propagandist keep changing the number of
deported Hungarian jews. besides i see your next lie: "deported to"
1. you do not have any evidence about how many Hungarian jews arrived
in Auschwitz or at other location
2. jews who were deported *through* Auschwitz are of course part of your
"deported to"
> € Do you regard the claim that Adolf Eichmann was responsible for
> coordinating these deportations to be a lie?
no - it is absolutely irrelevant
> € Do you regard the claim that Swedish diplomat Raoul Wallenberg issued
> Swedish travel documents to almost 100,000 Hungarian Jews, thus allowing
> them free passage out of German controlled territory, to be a lie?
no - and again it is absolutely irrelevant. jews were of course avoiding
deportation, helpin a jew to avoid deportation and saving a jew from
death are two different things - of course holocau$t propaganda won't
miss such a "great chance" to spread lies that Wallenberg was saving
jewish lives - Wallenberg was later silenced/killed by soviets, why ?
perhaps to stop him from telling what really happened...
> € Do you regard the claim that Swedish King, Gustav V, appealed directly
> to the Hungarian head of state, Miklós Horthy, in July, 1944, to stop the
> deportations of Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz to be a lie?
i do not know. well, i would be very surprised if Swedish king was
asking to stop "deportations of Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz"
explicitelly chosing a name of that concentration camp - didn't he
simply ask Horthy to stop "deportations of jews" ?
besides what has demand for *stopping deportations* has to do with
"extermination" ?
These days often people/governments demand/appeal to different countries
to cease mandatory detention and deportations of so called "illegal
immigrants" - however i never heard that the reason for their
demands/appeals is to save the "illegal immigrants" from "extermination".
you are full of beans.
>
> A simple "yes" or "no" response will suffice.
of course - so you would manipulate/"interpret".
>
> Regards,
> Eugene Holman
helge
> In article <426e6b03$1...@galaxy.uncensored-news.com>, helge
> <he...@helge.net> wrote:
>
> <deletions>
>
>>>>so my question remains the same: how stupid has someone to be to buy
>>>>such crap ?
>>>
>>>
>>>As stupid as someone had to be to be trapped behind the Berlin Wall on
>>>August 15, 1961.
>>>
>>
>>oh, really ? didn't you forget that your jewish "victims" knew about
>>the "extermination of jews" as early as 1941 ?!? you know it was a well
>>known fact trumpeted the same day on BBC and other radio stations.
>
>
> Correct. There was absolutely nothing they could have done about it.
Of course, and i wish you luck to find an idiot who 's going to buy this
crap. You contradict yourself all the time, and everytime you tell a
different version of the same story: sometimes the jews are trapped -
waiting helpless to be "exterminated", then in a different story
Wallenberg hands them 100 000 false passports and they are saved.
Besides the holocau$t promoters admit that the hungarian and slovakian
jews kept bribibing SS as well the officials of hungarian and slovak
government.
>They
> were trapped in a sealed and well-guarded ghetto. Their money and assets
> had been confiscated.
that was the reasons why the jews wanted to avoid the deportations, and
not because they wanted to "save their lifes".
> They were not allowed to use any means of
> transporation. They lacked both travel documents and citizenship. They had
> no option of escaping to the Soviet Union
jews kept arriving in many different countries - for example South
America, Australia, etc...
> as many prescient Latvian Jews
> had done during the first days after the German attacked in June. The Jews
> who remained in the ghetto after the November 30 massacre knew what fate
> awaited them, but there was nothing that they could do to avoid it except
> make a run for it on the day when they were awakened and ordered to march
> from the ghetto to the killing site. Many of them, their number is in the
> hundreds, did make a run for it, and most of them were shot dead along
> Moscow Road by the guards and policemen who were posted along the route.
>
>
>>None has ever heard that Germans in Berlin were told *3 years in
>>advance* that there is going to be a wall built. So your comparisson is
>>shallow like your propaganda and lies.
>
>
> Oh, come on! The East Germans knew that theirs was the only country
Didn't we talk about Berlin ? The city that had a "special status" ?
And why do you want to compare what "The East Germans knew" [according
to you] with what the jews were *told* on BBC and other radio stations ?
> in the
> eastern bloc whose borders had not been sealed, and that this situation
> could not last forever. Even during the few first days after August 15,
> when the wall was still mostly barbed wire and many escape opportunities
> existed, a very small number of people actually took the risk and escaped.
> These included the famous Vopo who jumped to his freedom from to the West,
> people who were lowered down to the West along ropes from windows, people
> who swam across the River Spree, and people who dug tunnels. The
> overwhelming majority of East Germans, though, including those building
> the wall and those guarding the builders, stayed put.
>
> In German-held territory, the two great Jewish revolts, the one in the
> Warsaw ghetto in April, 1943, and the one at the Sobibor death camp, on
> October 14, 1943, resulted in almost all of those who either participated
> in the revolt or actually managed to escape eventually being ruthlessly
> killed by the Nazis.
>
rubbish, most of the jews from Warsaw ghetto were deported, not killed.
just compare the German action in Warsaw ghetto with current US crimes
in Afganistan or Iraq.
what takes Sobibor - it was not a "death camp", and some of those
Sobibor "revolt" "survivors" were later killed by Poles [the jews call
the Poles "antisemites"].
Eugene Holman
<he...@helge.net> wrote:
> <snip />
> >>according to your type of "evidence", one needs only to present opinions
> >>/writings of catholic church officials in order to "prove" that the
> >>witches existed and the holy iquisition was right.
> >
> >
> > Heads of state and ambassadors do not, as a rule, put themselves out on
> > limbs.
>
> of course they do: Stalin, Leonid Breznev, Nixon, Clinton, G.W.Bush -
> just to name a few of them were/are all liars.
> their "truth" is "political truth" and holocau$t propaganda falls into
> the same category: the "truth" about Iraqs mobile labs for producing
> chemical weapons is as true as the "truth" about German "gas vans" or
> "extermination camps" - it is the same lie by the same liars...
Okay. Politicians often lie for short-term gain, but it is quite a
different thing to maintain a lie about an event that took place more than
sixty years ago and affected tens of thousands of people. The ruins of the
Great Choral Synagogue on Gogol St. in central Riga, torched by a
Nazi-instigated crowd with refugees in the basement on July 4, 1941,
remind any visitor to Riga of what was going on there during the Nazi
occupation. So do the former Jewish ghetto, virtually untouched sinbce the
war, and the Old Jewish Cemetery, with its massive headstone and fresh
flowers, marking the grave of the more than 1,000 people who were shot
during the liquidation of the ghetto or on the wat from there to the
killing site at Rumbula.
> > If you are accusing President Vike-Freiberga and His Excellency
> > Ambassador Carlson of commemorating "holocau$t propaganda crap", you have
> > to justify your position, considering that you are in a far weaker
> > position than they are.
>
> > If you know that they have been deceived, it is
> > your civic duty to bring this to their and our attention.
> >
>
> Freedom of Speech restricting-totalitarian laws are stopping people from
> doing that.
Latvia is not a totalitarian country and it has no laws against Holocaust
denial. On the other hand, Latvian president Vaira Vike-Freiberga is old
enough to have a distinct memory of the stench that befouled the air in
Riga for several weeks during the summer of 1943 when the bodies of the
victims of the Rumbula massacre were exhumed and burned on Himmler's
orders.
If you think that the Rumbula massacre never occurred, you can e-mail the
president by going to http://www.president.lv/index.php?pid=2270. Readers
of alt.revisionism would appreciate a copy of your e-mail and of her
response to it.
> Your request is ridiculous and cynical - exactly the same as if you were
> suggesting to a person in former/existing totalitarian country to go and
> fulfill his/her "civic duty".
It is no more ridiculous than it is cynical. Latvia is a member in good
standing of the Western community, of the EU, and of NATO. If you can
demonstrate that they have been commemorating a non-event for years, you
will become a celebrity.
> >>the fact is that no REAL - material/forensic evidence exist to support
> >>the lies about 25 000 jews killed at Rumbula. the Rumbula massacre is a
> >>lie, as is the rest of the holocau$t.
> >
> >
> > Killing off 25,000 people within the course of eight days necessarily
> > generates all kinds of evidence.
>
> yes but there was no "Killing off 25,000 people within the course of
> eight days" - that is the reason why you are not able to present any
> forensic evidence.
Anyone who goes to the site of the former killing site can find charred
bits and pieves of human remains. The mass grave at the Old Jewish
Cemetery was filled with bodies and has been undisturbed since 1941. Since
it is a mass grave, and thus a potential health hazard, the municipal
authorities have a record of its contents and give it the attention that
is given to all known graves. Thus, the demand for forensic evidence is
irrelevant.
Much more interesting would be your explanation for some telltale entries
in Himmler's records.
November 30, 1941
Source: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Note301141b.html:
The entry for 13:30 includes a telephone call to Obergruppenführer
Heydrich in Prague, the man who at that time was macromanaging the
Holocaust, that includes "Judentransport aus Berlin. Keine Liquidierung."
Himmler knew that a transport of Jews had been sent to Riga to
be liquidated, and he was trying to prevent this, although this time he
was a few hours too late.
December 1, 1941
Source: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Note011241.html. The entry for
the telephone call at 13:15 includes "Exekutionen in Riga".
Source: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/
<quote>
<deletions>
British codebreakers intercepted Dec 1, 1941 code messages from Himmler
ordering the SS murderer Jeckeln to report to Headquarters, to be
reprimanded for overstepping the guidelines in liquidating thousands of
German Jews at Riga on Nov 30, 1941
<deletions>
</quote>
A trainload of approximately 1,000 Jews from Berlin had arrived at
the Rumbula station in the early morning of November 30, 1941. They were
the first to be awakened, marched to the killing site, made to lie down in
pre-dug graves, and shot. These Berlin Jews were all dead by the time the
first Jews from the ghetto had arrived at 9.00 AM. Later that day Himmler
had telephoned to Heydrich ordering that the trainload of Jews from Berlin
not be liquidated, but it was too late, they had already been shot. See
below.
<deletions>
> > History does not rest solely on forensic
> > evidence, neither is forensic evidence necessarily in a privileged
> > position with respect to other kinds of evidence. Like all evidence,
> > forensic evidence must be interpreted and fit into a wider context if it
> > is to be of any value.
> >
>
> you do not have any forensic evidence - you simply do not have anything
> to "interpret". according to your lies apx. 1 000 000 - 1 500 000 jews
> were killed in Eastern Europe - the existing/available forensic evidence
> hardly supports couple of hundreds. none would ever ask question if the
> forensic evidence was supporting at least 1/3 of your claims cca. 300
> 000 victims.
What you are claiming is that if a murderer is clever enough to destroy
most of the physical evidence, then the murders that he committed cannot
be demonstreted to have taken place. You and I know that this is a crock
of bull.
As to corpses, two Jeckeln-type graves in an obscure part of Ukraine
yielded more than 500 bodies.
Source: http://www.soton.ac.uk/~jb3/war/war.html
<quote>
INVESTIGATING WAR CRIMES - THE ARCHAEOLOGlCAL EVIDENCE p.39
Richard Wright
In this evening's talk I shall introduce you to archaeological
investigations of mass killings in Ukraine. The people were murdered in
1942 and we excavated the graves 50 years later. Our work was done to
support three prosecutions made in Adelaide under the War Crimes
Legislation. I am an archaeologist. Why was an archaeologist needed at
all?
Well, the Special Investigations Unit of the Attorney-General's Department
was determined to forestall two styles of defence customarily offered in
such cases - that the wrong person has been charged (mistaken
identification), and that the events alleged are imagined or (if not
wholly imagined) so polluted in people's memories by the lapse of time,
and by self-reinforcing narration, as to be worthlessly distorted
evidence. Being an archaeologist, I had nothing to do with the first
strategy (identification of the alleged perpetrators) but I had much to do
with investigating material evidence for the alleged events.
So, I shall talk to you this evening about how we found the graves, how we
worked out details of the killings, and how we dated events both by old
fashioned stratigraphic methods and modern chronometric techniques.
The events we investigated are shocking and I must warn you that some of
the pictures I am going to show you of the events are themselves shocking.
Those of you in this evening's audience who have perhaps only thought of
the war crimes prosecutions as a political issue, may well be disturbed by
the sight of the events we uncovered.
I hope these introductory remarks can also serve as an apology for
concentrating on the particulars, and not presuming to give a summary of
the holocaust in Ukraine. My profession is that of archaeologist, not
historian. In Ukraine I did archaeology. Other people (for example,
Professor Konrad Kwiet, now of Macquarrie University) did the history.
I have one final introductory remark. The events of the Holocaust have
never impinged on me personally except for one childhood event which has
become more symbolically important for me since we did our work in
Ukraine. Let me take you through this briefly.
p.40 INVESTIGATING WAR CRIMES THE ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE
Just before the Second World War, my father (who was a clergyman in the
evangelical wing of the Anglican church in England) befriended an Austrian
neurologist and his family. This family of Jews had been thrown out of
Austria after the Nazis took over. I suspect that what was to become a
close friendship, gave my father a profoundly new, and more secular, view
of the world. He had taken as a friend, a person who had not only a
foreign nationality, but also a foreign profession and (what would have
been to my father) a foreign religion.
I used to play with Hans, the son of this neurologist. One day we were
playing a game of soldiers in our garden. Hans suddenly broke off the game
and told me how his family was herded to the Vienna railway station. He
was having trouble keeping up with the column. Just before it reached the
station, an old man picked Hans up in his arms. A soldier shouted and then
used his rifle butt to club the head of the old man who was carrying Hans.
He fell to the ground as the old man's arms opened.
I never found myself dwelling on this story told to me in my childhood.
Indeed I had virtually forgotten it - until we found ourselves excavating
in the grave at Serniki.
Let's talk about Serniki first. Our party consisted of myself as
archaeologist. In charge of the forensic side (for assessing sex, age,
manner of death - that sort of thing) we had Dr Godfrey Oettle who was
then head of the division of forensic medicine in Glebe. Responsible for
collecting details in a form acceptable for a court of law was Detective
Sergeant David Hughes of the NSW police. David had recently been a member
of the taskforce that solved the so-called granny murders in Sydney. My
wife Sonia, who is an experienced field archaeologist, came as my
assistant. She is at present writing up her experiences at Serniki, using
facilities at the Centre for Comparative Genocide Studies at Macquarie
University.
Now even with glasnost (well underway in 1990) you could not just turn up
in Moscow and announce you were going to do a mass exhumation in Ukraine.
No, our efforts had been arranged with officials within the Soviet
government. The Soviet officials had already experienced the
professionalism of the Sydney based Special Investigations Unit, because
(apart from what we were to do) the Australian team had virtually wound up
its investigations at the village of Serniki. When we turned up, we
inherited much of the goodwill that the SIU had built up with both the
Soviet and Ukrainian authorities. Responsibility for ensuring we had what
we wanted was given to the procurator for the whole western half of the
Soviet Union, Madam Kalashnikova - a person who we found at times lived up
to the Western metaphor of a Kalashnikof, but who could at other times be
immensely helpful.
THE SYDNEY PAPERS WINTER 1995 p.41
Serniki is on the southern margins of the Pripet marshes, which Hitler in
his table talk said he would, after he won the war, retain as an area for
Wehrmacht manoeuvres. The area we were working in was well within the
German lines in this area of Ukraine. When we turned up it was high summer
and a fantastic growing time of the year in fields and gardens. The locals
were not used to tourists and we were stared at a lot.
The area of the grave is now in an ominous-looking dark pine forest, but
feelings of that sort are illusory. At the time of the killing this was
open country. At the site in the forest, the Soviet authorities had set us
up with a telephone, tents, electricity, bulldozers, and a contingent of
Red Army soldiers. Only the telephone didn't work.
The local officials wanted to find bodies as soon as possible, and did so
at what turned out to be one end of the grave. However my interest, as an
archaeologist, was first to find a soil feature that might be interpreted
as a grave and only then look for bodies. In this way damage to contextual
evidence would be minimised.
We were fortunate in finding a marked contrast in colour and texture
between the natural soil and the filling of the grave. This contrast came
right to the base of the existing humic zone at the surface, so we were
able to delimit one whole half of the grave before disturbing anything. To
do the work, we divided the grave into two halves. The Australian team
took charge of the end we had located by archaeological methods, and the
Soviets took the other.
Our first job, having delimited the boundaries of the grave as some 40
metres long and 5 metres wide, was to bulldoze down two metres to within
20 centimetres of the bodies. Then, together with the soldiers, we used
shovels to remove the sand until the tops of the bodies were exposed.
We then used paint brushes to do the final exposure. At the end of five
weeks of gruesome work, our count of skulls indicated about 550 bodies in
the grave. There may have been a few more skulls where bodies lay more
than two deep, but the torsos had too much surviving soft tissue to make
feasible the task of any further exposure.
An awful scene had unfolded. As the eyewitnesses had said, they were
mostly women and children. The men were old men. They had been herded down
a ramp into the grave. One lot had gone to the left and been shot while
lying down within the grave; the others had gone to the right. The
majority had entry and exit wounds of bullets in their skulls. Some of
them had been clubbed.
At the end the Soviets were working on, the bodies lay face down, parallel
and in rows. At our end the bodies were much more disorganised. There
seemed to have been panic at our end.
In a generally empty area at the middle of the grave we found bodies that
had fewer bullets to the head. Some had been clubbed.
p.42 INVESTIGATING WAR CRIMES THE ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE
These people had surviving bits of clothing, whereas the main mass of
people at each end of the grave, had been stripped before being shot. We
found items of clothing right through the filling of the grave, suggesting
that people had picked through a pile of clothing, throwing in what was
unwanted while the grave was being filled in. One boot contained a pocket
watch secreted in the heel.
We felt a grim satisfaction in revealing that the massive grave was much
too large for the number of people in it. The Nazis had obviously hoped
for many more victims.
One of my duties was to concentrate on dating the event. After cleaning up
some of the corroded machine pistol cartridge cases, and examining them
with a lens, my colleagues found that the killers had used German
ammunition stamped with the place and date of manufacture. The cases dated
from the years of 1939, 1940 and 1941. These cases were like coins found
in conventional excavations. We thereby had a date of 1941, later than
which the killings must have taken place.
It proved more of a problem to get a date earlier than which the killings
took place. The fir trees grew in parallel rows and were clearly a
plantation. Some fir trees grew in the filling of the grave. We examined
the growth rings of the trees. The greatest number of rings we could find
was 29, indicating that the killing had taken place before 1961.
We were able to narrow dating down significantly once we got back to
Sydney. Radiocarbon dating of hair showed that the individuals showed no
trace of the so-called hydrogen bomb effect in their proportion of carbon
isotopes, so the killing took place before hydrogen bombs started to be
let off in 1952.
Now we turn to the work in Ustinovka, a year later in 1991. Here we had
Sergeant Steve Horne in place of David Hughes. Dr Chris Griffiths, a
specialist in forensic dentistry at Westmead Hospital, joined Godfrey
Oettle on the forensic side. He was needed because of a particularly awful
allegation about the killings there. It was alleged that after a hundred
or so adults had been marched two kilometres to a grave and shot, a fellow
had asked where the children were. "We didn't think you wanted to shoot
the children," the organisers of the round up had said. At that, some
fellows returned to the village, commandeered a cart, and drove the
children back to the grave. They then, so the allegations went, threw the
children off the cart and into the grave, and shot them. I was told that
the SIU investigators had interviewed the mother of three of those
children (the father was a Jew, she wasn't). She said she had returned
from the fields for lunch one day. Her children were not in the house. She
asked the neighbours whether they had seen the children. The neighbours
told her they had been taken away to be shot.
THE SYDNEY PAPERS WINTER 1995 p.43
Dr Griffith's services were required because of the need to work out the
ages of the children, if indeed we found them, from the stages of eruption
of the milk teeth and permanent teeth.
Ustinovka is 500 ESE of Serniki, in the fertile black soil loess belt.
Unlike at Serniki, the locals had only a vague idea of where the grave
might be. There was no sign on the surface.
Standing in a vast paddock of 10 cm tall peas and maize, I felt helpless.
How were we to start looking? Where were we to start looking? The rest of
the team looked confident, expecting Sonia and myself to perform some sort
of archaeological divination.
I remembered back to my textbooks. Young crops like disturbed ground,
trenches showing up from the air as greener features. This gave us an
idea. Back in town we had seen an ancient biplane on an airstrip. We asked
if we could use it.
Permission to use the biplane was readily granted, but - NO PHOTOS. As it
turned out photos would have been impossible out of the scratched perspex
windows of this crop-dusting biplane, stinking of chemicals. Even looking
for cropmarks was impossible. So we asked for a better plane.
Next morning we returned to the site. In the middle of the peas and maize
stood a Soviet army helicopter, rocket pods protruding. What about photos?
The crew seemed annoyed with the question. There were no problems with
photos from the helicopter, of the helicopter, of the crew (in particular
there was no problem with colour Polaroids of the crew).
The flight was to no avail. Nothing showed up. So we had to use mundane
methods.
We put a shallow trench with backhoe across a likely area, examining the
scraped walls for lateral discontinuities in colour and texture. In this
way we found the sides of a deep cutting, which turned out to be the
grave. At Ustinovka, unlike at Serniki, we succeeded in defining the whole
area of the grave before we disturbed any of its contents. When you are
looking for a buried body your archaeological objective should be first to
find the grave and only then bother with the body. This is a fundamental
principle of conserving evidence that Australian police should pay more
attention to. Archaeologists too rarely get called in to assist police in
their investigations.
Remembering the story that children had been killed after the adults, our
stratigraphic evidence provided stunning support for this story. We came
down on the children's skeletons first, and then what seemed to be the
bottom of the grave. But 20 centimetres below the children lay the adults.
The witnesses did not actually mention that the grave had been partly
filled after the adults were killed, but obviously our stratigraphic
observations provide important material evidence for their statement that
children were killed later.
p.44 INVESTIGATING WAR CRIMES - THE ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE
There were about 20 children. The youngest one was about six months and
virtually destroyed in the soil except for the teeth. The oldest one was
about 12 or 13 years old.
Thus we were able to get evidence that would have been missed without
attention to scientific methods of excavation. At Ustinovka, maybe even
the grave itself would have been missed.
I want to finish this evening by looking more widely than at Ukraine. As
you might expect, I am not alone in thinking that archaeological
methodology has a role in the investigation of killings. The University of
Bradford has a postgraduate diploma that majors in forensic archaeology. I
hope to visit John Hunter there when I go over to the United Kingdom later
this year.
Closer in topic to what we have spoken about tonight (mass killings) is
the Argentine Forensic Anthropology Team. They got themselves together in
the mid-1980s, when it became politically possible to investigate the fate
of the so-called "Disappeared" of the 1970s. Horrified at the shambles the
police were making of exhumations, they formed themselves into a group of
archaeologists and forensic anthropologists. They impressed on the
authorities that their methods would allow better opportunities for
identifying specific individuals, by proving the association between
artifacts and particular skeletons. It wasn't enough to merely dig up the
skeletons and take them to a morgue for identification. This dedicated
team has lent its services to authorities elsewhere in South America and
elsewhere in the world.
The Boston based Physicians for Human Rights has been approached by the
United Nations to assist with prosecutions relating to atrocities in both
the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda. As their title indicates, they are
primarily a forensic team of volunteers. But they routinely incorporate
the services of archaeologists. I am privileged to have been invited last
month to join their group of experts, though I can't say it is an
invitation that I accepted with relish.
The primary archaeological interests of my career have been twofold -
environmental changes at the end of the Ice Age and models for computer
aided multivariate analysis of archaeological data. These remain my two
chief archaeological interests. But as you can see, the invitation to work
in Ukraine dragged me away from those worthwhile, but relatively arcane
pursuits, to a nasty awakening in the archaeology of the 20th Century.
Nasty it may have been, but I have not regretted it. Even though no
Australian has been found guilty by the courts of the atrocities we
investigated, we have brought forward new material evidence of three
particular episodes in the holocaust that no persons, even those labouring
on behalf of Holocaust denial, have sought to contradict.
Material evidence is harder to contradict than memories.
</quote>
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
> <snip />
> >>according to your type of "evidence", one needs only to present opinions
> >>/writings of catholic church officials in order to "prove" that the
> >>witches existed and the holy iquisition was right.
> >
> >
> > Heads of state and ambassadors do not, as a rule, put themselves out on
> > limbs.
>
> of course they do: Stalin, Leonid Breznev, Nixon, Clinton, G.W.Bush -
> just to name a few of them were/are all liars.
> their "truth" is "political truth" and holocau$t propaganda falls into
> the same category: the "truth" about Iraqs mobile labs for producing
> chemical weapons is as true as the "truth" about German "gas vans" or
> "extermination camps" - it is the same lie by the same liars...
Okay. Politicians often lie for short-term gain, but it is quite a
different thing to maintain a lie about an event that took place in a
large city in broad daylight more than sixty years ago and affected tens
of thousands of people. The ruins of the Great Choral Synagogue on Gogol
St. in central Riga, torched by a
Nazi-instigated crowd with refugees in the basement on July 4, 1941,
remind any visitor to Riga of what was going on there during the Nazi
occupation. So do the former Jewish ghetto, virtually untouched since the
war, and the Old Jewish Cemetery, with its massive headstone and fresh
flowers every day, marking the grave of the more than 1,000 people who
were shot in conjunction with the liquidation of the ghetto or on the way
from there to the killing site at Rumbula.
> > If you are accusing President Vike-Freiberga and His Excellency
> > Ambassador Carlson of commemorating "holocau$t propaganda crap", you have
> > to justify your position, considering that you are in a far weaker
> > position than they are.
>
> > If you know that they have been deceived, it is
> > your civic duty to bring this to their and our attention.
> >
>
> Freedom of Speech restricting-totalitarian laws are stopping people from
> doing that.
Latvia is not a totalitarian country and it has no laws against Holocaust
denial. On the other hand, Latvian president Vaira Vike-Freiberga is old
enough to have a distinct memory of the stench that befouled the air in
Riga for several weeks during the summer of 1943 when the bodies of the
victims of the Rumbula massacre were exhumed and burned on Himmler's
orders.
If you think that the Rumbula massacre never occurred, you can e-mail the
president by going to http://www.president.lv/index.php?pid=2270. Readers
of alt.revisionism would appreciate a copy of your e-mail and of her
response to it.
> Your request is ridiculous and cynical - exactly the same as if you were
> suggesting to a person in former/existing totalitarian country to go and
> fulfill his/her "civic duty".
It is no more ridiculous than it is cynical. Latvia is a member in good
standing of the Western community, of the EU, and of NATO. If you can
demonstrate that they have been commemorating a non-event for years, you
will become a celebrity.
> >>the fact is that no REAL - material/forensic evidence exist to support
> >>the lies about 25 000 jews killed at Rumbula. the Rumbula massacre is a
> >>lie, as is the rest of the holocau$t.
> >
> >
> > Killing off 25,000 people within the course of eight days necessarily
> > generates all kinds of evidence.
>
> yes but there was no "Killing off 25,000 people within the course of
> eight days" - that is the reason why you are not able to present any
> forensic evidence.
Anyone who goes to the site of the former killing site can find charred
bits and pieves of human remains. The mass grave at the Old Jewish
Cemetery was filled with bodies and has been undisturbed since 1941. Since
it is a mass grave, and thus a potential health hazard, the municipal
authorities have a record of its contents and give it the attention that
is given to all known graves.
You are claiming that the Riga municipal authorities as well as the tens
of thousands of inhabitants of the city who lost siblings, pareants,
relatives, and friends in cunjunction with the massacre are the victims of
a hoax or are outright liars.
What would be your explanation for some telltale entries about the
massacre in Himmler's records.
Source: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/
<deletions>
> > History does not rest solely on forensic
> > evidence, neither is forensic evidence necessarily in a privileged
> > position with respect to other kinds of evidence. Like all evidence,
> > forensic evidence must be interpreted and fit into a wider context if it
> > is to be of any value.
> >
>
> you do not have any forensic evidence - you simply do not have anything
> to "interpret". according to your lies apx. 1 000 000 - 1 500 000 jews
> were killed in Eastern Europe - the existing/available forensic evidence
> hardly supports couple of hundreds. none would ever ask question if the
> forensic evidence was supporting at least 1/3 of your claims cca. 300
> 000 victims.
What you are claiming is that if a murderer is clever enough to destroy
helge
> What you are claiming is that if a murderer is clever enough to destroy
> most of the physical evidence, then the murders that he committed cannot
> be demonstreted to have taken place. You and I know that this is a crock
> of bull.
>
no it is not a "crock of bull" - that's like justice works. you have to
prove your allegations, you have to support your case with evidence.
to simply claim that no evidence exist - and that that is the "proof" of
all evidence was "destroyed" is nonsense.
and the whole nonsense is based on your fallacy that someone destroyed
"most of the physical evidence" - how ? it is technically impossible
to destroy "most of the physical evidence" of your alleged massacre of
25 000 jews. even if someone exhumed and burned the bodies - where are
the human remains/bones/ashes ? and where are the enormous massgraves
with volume for cca. 25 000 victims ?
the answer is very simple - you do not view that alleged massacre as a
real event/crime - to you it is something holy/sacred - outside of the
material world - therefore
you simply reject any rational request for evidence. it simply
"happened" because you want and you need it aa a base for your agenda.
> As to corpses, two Jeckeln-type graves in an obscure part of Ukraine
> yielded more than 500 bodies.
500 bodies ?
why "Jeckeln-type" "documents" do talk about HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of
victims, but the actual forensic evidence is 500 bodies ?!?
the holocau$t propaganda claims that 1 - 1.5 million of jews were
"exterminated" in Eastern Europe - that can be hardly proven with less
than 1/3 human remains of that number. To kill hundreds of people is
very different from killing hundred of thousands or millions.
The famoust US massacre of Vietnamese village claimed apx. 500victims -
are we supposed now - according to your own standards - start claiming
that that 's evidence about 1 000 000 - 1 500 000 "exterminated"
Vietnamese by US army ?
<snip />
Eugene Holman
<he...@helge.net> wrote:
> <snip />
> > What you are claiming is that if a murderer is clever enough to destroy
> > most of the physical evidence, then the murders that he committed cannot
> > be demonstreted to have taken place. You and I know that this is a crock
> > of bull.
> >
>
> no it is not a "crock of bull" - that's like justice works. you have to
> prove your allegations, you have to support your case with evidence.
True enough. But the evidence does not have to be *physical* evidence.
> to simply claim that no evidence exist - and that that is the "proof" of
> all evidence was "destroyed" is nonsense.
I never claimed that. The mass grave at the Old Jewish Cemetery in central
Riga, containing the more than 1,000 bodies of those who did not make it
to the killing site, as well as the various bits of charred human remains
found in the vicinity of the Rumbula killing site, are physical evidence
of the massacre. Nevertheless, they are virtually worthless if there is no
wider context to relate them to.
The massacre took place in broad daylight on two days, for which reason
there are eyewitnesses and photographs. Preparing for the massacre
required moving the Riga Jews to the ghetto, and moving the non-Jewish
inhabitants of the area made the ghetto into other housing, arrangements
that involved more than twenty thousand people and generated reams of
paperwork. Jeckeln was called to Riga by Himmler and housed with his
fifty-man staff at the Ritterhaus, another operation that generated
paperwork. Jecklen had 22,000 rounds of ammunition sent to the killing
site, another action that generated paperwork in the form of orders, bills
of lading, and supervision by security forces. On both killing days the
Jews in the ghetto were marched along Moscow Road in broad daylight, and
those who tried to escape were shot by SS men or Latvian policemen, once
again actions that generate paperwork. The bodies of the people killed in
the ghetto and along Moscow Road on November 30 and December 8 had to be
picked up, loaded onto carts, and transported to the mass grave at the Old
Jewish cemetery. The Riga municipal authorities had to be informed of the
dimensions and content of the mass grave, since cemeteries and graves are
potential health hazards. Finally, the property and assests confiscated
from the murdered Jews had to be collected, sorted, washed, stored,
guarded, evaluated and either sold off or shipped back to Germany.
The amount of non-physical evidence form this particular massacre is
*overwhelming*. Additional forensic evidence would be nothing more but
icing on an already quite convincing cake.
> and the whole nonsense is based on your fallacy that someone destroyed
> "most of the physical evidence" - how ? it is technically impossible
> to destroy "most of the physical evidence" of your alleged massacre of
> 25 000 jews.
You dig up the graves and burn their contents. This was done at the
Rumbula killing site, but not at the Old Jewish cemetery in the former
Riga ghetto.
> even if someone exhumed and burned the bodies - where are
> the human remains/bones/ashes ? and where are the enormous massgraves
> with volume for cca. 25 000 victims ?
Exhuming the graves and burning their contents did not destroy all
physical evidence. Nobody denies the fact that it is still easy to find
charred human remains at the Rumbula killing site.
> the answer is very simple - you do not view that alleged massacre as a
> real event/crime - to you it is something holy/sacred - outside of the
> material world - therefore
> you simply reject any rational request for evidence.
No. My view is that there is a confluence of evidence, including forensic
evidence, that mass murders of Jews took place in Riga on July 4, 1941
(the torching of the Great Choral Synagogue), on November 30, 1941 (the
first wave of the Rumbula massacre), and on December 8, 1941 (the second
wave of the Rumbula massacre). Little more than a week later, the last
public mass murder of Latvian Jews took place at Liepaja. This was both
filmed and photographedby the Nazis.
> it simply
> "happened" because you want and you need it aa a base for your agenda.
I have no agenda. I have visited Latvis several times, and I am familiar
with the former Jewish ghetto in Riga, the killing site at Rumbula, and
the documentary evidence that was generated at the time. Like the Latvian
president and government, and the American ambassador to Latvia, I see no
reason to question the historical factuality of the Rumbula massacre.
>
> > As to corpses, two Jeckeln-type graves in an obscure part of Ukraine
> > yielded more than 500 bodies.
>
> 500 bodies ?
> why "Jeckeln-type" "documents" do talk about HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of
> victims, but the actual forensic evidence is 500 bodies ?!?
The graves at Ustonovka and Serniki are two, small, obscure graves. There
are many more of them. What is significant is that the victims in both of
them were in ordered, sardine-can-like stacks, this indicating application
of the Jeckeln *Sardinenpackung* methodology of mass murder.
<snip>
Regards.
Eugene Holman
morghus
> In article <1114440136....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> EmilM...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Holman's heavy reliance on the anti-revisionist Ezergailis is
noted. As
> > I posted before:
> > Friedrich Jeckeln was interrogated by Major Zwetajew of the Soviet
> > agency SMERSH, the same people who interrogated German Wehrmacht
> > officers about the Katyn massacre, found them guilty and
subsequently
> > hanged them publicly in
> > Leningrad.
> > Jeckeln's statements are worthless.
>
> Why?
>
> The fact that Jeckeln had a record of mass murder in Ukraine and was
then
> called to Latvia and eventually appointed head police officer in
German
> occupied Ostland is an indisputable historical fact.
Oh God! Another "indisputable historical fact" for which no evidence
exists. No record of mass murder in the Ukraine by Jackeln exists. This
is standard holocaust propaganda.
Major Zwatajew might
> have presided over some dishonest trials, but that does not
automatically
> make everything that Jeckeln confessed to "worthless".
Unless other credible independent evidence exists to support the facts
alleged, confessions obtained by Jewish/Russian sadists cannot be
accepted by any rational person as proof of anything. And you have no
other credible evidence. You have a confession obtained by a sadistic
Jew supported by unbelievable testimony of other Jews seeking to kill
the Germans after the war and make a little money on the side. That's
hardly convincing evidence.
Jeckeln presided
> over a bureaucracy that officiously produced abundant amounts of
> documents, including those generated by the registration of Jews and
their
> property, the establishment, sealing off, and administration of the
Jewish
> ghetto in central Riga, the organization and implementation of the
Rumbula
> massacre, and the classification, evaluation, storage, and disposal
of the
> property and assets left behind by the more than 24,000 murdered
Jews.
Well gee, Eugene; show us one or two of those official documents
generated by Jackeln's bureaucracy that refer to a massacre at Rumbula,
or any other place around Riga. That ought to be pretty easy.
>
> There is no disputing the facts that:
> 1. Nazi Germany invaded Latvia and, with the help of Latvian
> collaborators, immediately started assembling and killing Jews in the
> countryside and small towns.
No disputing? You mean there is no supporting such "facts." There is no
evidence to support such a stupid and vicious lie. The Germans never
did kill noncombatants as a matter of policy in any countryside or
small town anywhere in Eastern Europe. That was a Jewish Bolshevik
tactic.
> 2. The Germans captured Riga and declared a variant of the Nuremberg
Laws
> in force. Latvian Jews were deprived of their citizenship and civil
> rights, forced to register, and eventually consigned to the ghetto.
So the Germans really didn't kill Jews after all. Why didn't you say
so in the first place.
> 3. SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, who had supervised many
mass
> execuions in the Ukraine, was summoned to Riga by Heinrich Himmler
> [Landgericht Hamburg: Urteil gegen Jahnke, p. 54. The order to kill
the
> Jews of Rîga is also examined by Fleming, *Hitler and the Final
Solution*,
> Chapters 7 and 8.]
No order to kill Jews was ever issued by any German, military or
civilian.
> 4. Most of the 24,000 inhabitants of the Riga ghetto were marched
along
> Moscow Road [Maskvas Iela] to the killing site, where trench-like
graves
> had been dug by Soviet POWs, on November 30 and December 8, 1941. The
> march began at 6 in the morning and ended after nightfall. It was
done in
> full public view, and people who attempted to escape or who could not
keep
> up were shot in cold blood and left lying along the road until their
> bodies were picked up hours later. Several hundred people in the
ghetto
> were shot on both days for insubordination or because they were
unable or
> unwilling to join the march to the killing site.
We've heard all this many times before, Eugene. Any supporting
evidence? Any bodies? Mass graves? Photographs? Reports? Orders?
Of course not. The entire saga of the holocaust in Latvia is based on
individual stories of people who were very much alive after the war.
The horror tales of Latvia come from the same sort of people who gave
us the Babi Yar massacres, the Mariompole massacres, and all the other
mythical massacres for which no one has been able to find a trace of
evidence.
> 5. The property of the murdred Jews was collected, sorted, stored and
> evaluated, and then sold off or shipped to Germany.
Er...you're not going to show us more pictures of piles of shoes, are
you?
> 6. An operation of this complexity requires careful planning and
finely
> tuned logistics. Approximately 1,500 people participated as guards,
> property gatherers, drivers, interpreters, or marksmen.
Such a complex operation "requires careful planning and finely tuned
logistics," but it can all be done without orders, or written documents
of any sort. 1,500 people just all seem to know what to do without any
written directions.
It seems that Rumbula is going the way of all the holocaust stories.
The Germans, it appears, were able to maintain a continuous mass murder
program involving thousands of people and hundreds of thousands of
victims without so much as a handwritten note. No records of any kind
have ever been recovered to suggest such a complex, finely tuned
atrocity as we are told took place at Rumbula.
> SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, whose fifty-man headquarters
was
> housed in the Riga Ritterhaus, was responsible for organizing and
> implementing the massacre.
> 7. Jeckeln reported to Himmler by telephone, and then later in
person, at
> Lötzen in late December, 1941, that the job had been completed
> successfully.
Oops. You have run into a slight problem in propagating your hate,
Eugene. You see, the British intercepted a message from Himmler to
Jackeln in December of 1941. Here's what Himmler directed:
"The Jews being deported to the East are to be dealt with only in
accordance with the guidelines laid down by myself and/or by the
Reichssicherheitshauptamt on my orders. I would punish arbitrary and
disobedient acts."
The Jews were being deported--not killed. And we know from other
intercepted messages that in fact the Jews were being well cared for.
The British intercepted a number of messages from Bremen to Riga dating
from November 17 to 24, 1941. The messages described train loads of
Jews being sent to Riga, and Himmler's guidelines that were to be
followed. All the transports to Riga, Kovno, Lodsch and Minsk were well
provisioned with food, including tons of bread, cook ware, and eating
utensils, and every Jew was allowed to take along ample luggage. The
Germans even sent money with the transports to purchase any necessities
when the Jews reached their destinations.
Those are the "records," Eugene. Those are the documents. That's what
we call credible evidence. Evidence that objective people can see and
believe. Not like those vicious and fanciful tales of thousands of
very-much-alive Jews who keep insisting the Germans killed all the
Jews.
>
> For a notation in Himmler's diary shortly after the first phase of
the
> Rumbula massacre see http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Note041241.html .
>
> Source: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/
>
> <quote>
> <deletions>
> British codebreakers intercepted Dec 1, 1941 code messages from
Himmler
> ordering the SS murderer Jeckeln to report to Headquarters, to be
> reprimanded for overstepping the guidelines in liquidating thousands
of
> German Jews at Riga on Nov 30, 1941
> <deletions>
> </quote>
What did the message say, Eugene? Translate it. Don't keep us in
suspense. And don't hand us the standard holocaust bullshit like the
"note" below--that's not what the message said.
Now, let's see--you cite one document, and only one, that says "Keine
Liquidierung," i.e., "no liquidation," and you want us to accept that
one document as proof of mass murder? And you even ask: what could be
better? Well, I suppose we have to make allowances for holocaust
believers. That is probably indicative of the real evidence they can
produce to support the holocaust tale. It makes sense; there is no
evidence. There can't be--the holocaust is a lie.
EmilM...@yahoo.com
> In article <1114485233.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> EmilM...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
[...]
>
> The Rumbula massacre was not just an isolated incident. It marked a
> turning point in the implementation of the Holocaust. The complexity
of
> the logistics, the extremely public manner in which it was carried
out
> marked, and the bad vibes thus generated among the local population,
meant
> a turning point in the Holocaust. No mass killings on this scale take
> place any more. In the future mass killing was to be centralized,
made
> more selective, and implemented behind closed doors.
>
Apparently there were many pogroms committed by the locals, some
Latvians.
>From the Jewish/German newspaper Hagalil:
"Letten, die Juden mordeten, *bevor* die Deutschen Besatzer im Juni
1941
Lettland besetzten, und danach mit deutscher Hilfe ihre bestialischen
Taten fortsetzten, wurden gern in die SS-Einheit integriert."
(Latvians who murdered Jews before the German occupiers arrived in June
1941 and then continued their brutal deeds with German help were often
integrated in SS-units)
http://hagalil.org/hagalil/archiv/99/03/letten.htm
The pogroms occurred in all Baltic states, East Poland, White Russia
and the Ukraina. People suffered under the Soviet occupation and let it
out at the Jews when the Soviets were retreating.
The instructions given to the Einsatzgrupen were clear:
This conclusion is strengthened by the contents of an order dated July
2, 1941, issued by Heydrich himself to the Höhere SS und
Polizeiführer in the occupied Soviet territories. Heydrich repeated to
them in summary form the instructions he had already issued directly to
the Einsatzgruppen. The relevant passage of this document, which only
surfaced in the 1960s although its authenticity has since been verified
by specialists in the field, states:
EXECUTIONS.
The following will be executed:
Functionaries of the Comintern (most of who are simply professional
Communist politicians).
Functionaries of higher and medium rank and "radicals" in the Party,
the Central Committee, and the regional and district committees.
Commissars of the People. Jews in the Service of the Party and the
State. Other radical elements (saboteurs, propagandists, snipers,
assassins, agitators, etc.)...
No actions should be taken to interfere with any activities that may be
started by anti-Communist or anti-Jewish elements in the newly occupied
territories. Rather, these are to be secretly encouraged. Nonetheless,
all care must be taken to ensure that those who get involved in these
local "self defence" activities are not able to claim later that they
were merely following instructions or had been promised political
protection. [167]
I am familiar with these police decodes. It was the subject of many
discussions on other forums. But where does it say, that these people
were to be shot? Don't you jump here to conclusions?
Anyway, I did check Himmler's Dienstkalender for that date of
4/12/1941 (European date).
Here is what he entered for that date:
11.45 Gmund Gudrun
12.00 SS-Oberführer Brack
12.h Reichsmarschall Berlin
13.10 Staatssekr. Muhs
13.30 Mittagessen
(Himmler mittags als Gast bei Hitler zusammen mit Rosenberg und
Bouhler)
There is no entry about Jeckeln at all. Neither for the week before
this date nor for the week after.
Eugene Holman
"morghus" <mor...@MailAndNews.com> wrote:
<deletions>
> No order to kill Jews was ever issued by any German, military or
> civilian.
Source: http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/ezergailis_preface.html
<quote>
<deletions>
The Nazi agencies responsible for the killing of the Jews in Latvia
started a misinformation program about the killing even before the
killings took place. Hitler's refusal to attach a signature to his
order is an early indication. Thus a vacuum of information was created at
the very top. The paper trail, as to who ordered whom, was broken, and
that has allowed for a variety of interpretations ever since. As there
were no written orders from above to the commanders of the Einsatzgruppen,
so there were no written orders from the commanders of the Einsatzgruppen
to the commanders of the Einsatzkommandos or any of the subsidiary
Sicherheitspolizei und SD (in the future referred to as Security Police
and SD or simply as SD) units: Teilkommandos, Schiefikommandos,
Rollkommandos. Nor are there any written orders from the German commandos
to the Latvian commandos or police forces. The irony is that the rules of
omerta held firm for orders and information flowing down, but the system
broke down in the flow of information from the field to the Main Office of
Security Police and SD in Berlin, the Reichssicherheitshauptamt (RSHA).
Owing to the breakdown of secrecy, we have inherited the Ereignismeldungen
(EM) (frequently translated as Situation Reports), summaries of the
Einsatzgruppen daily activities. In addition to the Ereignismeldungen
there are also the two Stahlecker's Consolidated Reports (15 October
1941 and 30 January 1942) that reveal the murderous Nazi design in Latvia.
<deletions>
</quote>
> > The fact that Jeckeln had a record of mass murder in Ukraine and was
> then
> > called to Latvia and eventually appointed head police officer in
> German
> > occupied Ostland is an indisputable historical fact.
>
>
>
> Oh God! Another "indisputable historical fact" for which no evidence
> exists. No record of mass murder in the Ukraine by Jackeln exists. This
> is standard holocaust propaganda.
>
<deletions>
The summary below is based on reports from the Einsatzgruppen recorded in
the so-called Ereignismeldungen or Event Reports compiled by Heydrich's
staff in Berlin. One hundred and ninety-five Event Reports were compiled
between June 23, 1941, and April 24, 1942.
Source: http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.com/evidence/pl230.asp
<quote>
3.2 HSSPF Russia South and Einsatzgruppe C
3.2.1 In the course of extending the murders into the southern part of
the Front, the HSSPF Jeckeln as well as the lst SS Brigade played a major
role. The 1st SS Brigade, which was under the command of Jeckeln, moved
to the murder of Jewish women when they took on a "cleansing operation"
between July 27 and July 30 in the area of Zwiahel. In Jeckeln's command
to the Brigade it was stated that - apart from Front Commissars - also
suspicious "female agents or Jews...were to be handled appropriately".
3.2.2 As a result of this "action", the Brigade reported that they had
arrested, among others, 1658 Jews; 800 people, "Jewish men and women from
16 to 60 years old" had been shot. Subsequent to this "action", on 4
August, units of this Brigade carried out further "actions" and shot 1385
people under the same pretext, among them 275 women and 1109 Jewish men.
3.2.3 In the following weeks Jeckeln ordered the lst. SS Brigade to
carry out further "cleansing operations". Members of the Brigade shot 232
Jews on 7 August in Tschernjychow, 300 Jewish men and 139 women in
Sarokonstantinow around 20 August, and "1009 Jews and Red Army men" and in
the period between 2 September and 7 September ."
3.2.4 At the end of August, the Brigade under Jeckeln's command carried
out a massacre in Kamenetsk-Podolsk which exceeded all previous
"actions". According to the event report from 22 August, "a Commando of
the Higher SS and Police Leader... shot 23,600 Jews" (men, women and
children) within 3 days. The victims of Kamenetsk-Podolsk were mainly Jews
who had been deported over the border into the newly conquered area in
Galicia by Hungarian officials as "burdensome foreigners". The proof that
this massacre was systematically prepared is documented in the minutes of
the meeting which was held on 25 August at the Headquarters of the
Generalquartermaster of the Army in Vinniza. On this occasion, an
officer of the staff of the Generalquartermaster referred to a pledge by
Jeckeln to complete the liquidation of the Jews deported to the area of
Kamenetsk-Podolsk by 1 September. From the number of Jews deported from
Hungary, 18.000, it can be concluded that about 14.000 to 16.000 were shot
at the end of August about 15 Km from Kamenetsk-Potolsk by Jeckeln's staff
company, the Police Battalion 320 as well as by Ukrainian and Hungarian
militia. In addition, thousands of local Jews were shot.
3.2.5 After the "altogether 44,125 people, mostly Jews" who were shot,
in August alone, according to the event reports of the "Formation of the
Higher SS and Police Leaders", Jeckeln continued the massacres; in the
first days of September, in Berditschw, as stated in event reports, "1303
Jews, among them 876 Jewish women over 12 years old" were killed by a
Commando of the Higher SS and Police Leaders Russia South. The murder of
over 3000 Jews still living in the ghetto of Shitomir, on 19 September, in
which the SK 4a was involved, must also have been largely Jeckeln's
responsibility.
3.2.6 Finally, Jeckeln played a leading role in the massacre of the Jews
of Kiev at Babi Jar, where the SK 4a, the Police Regiment South with the
Battalion 45 and 303 and a Company of the Waffen SS were involved. This
massacre, by which 33,771 Jews were murdered according to the event
reports, was planned on September 16 in a meeting where Jeckeln, the Chief
of the EG C, Rasch, the Leader of the SK 4a, Blobel as well as the City
Commander of the Wehrmacht were present. This mass murder was justified
as "retaliation" for a major fire in the city that was supposedly set by
Jews.
3.2.7 Jeckeln also played a central role in the massacre of the Jews of
Dnjepreprotowsk on 13 October, where according to the event reports, out
of some 30.000 Jews in the city, "approximately 10.000 were shot by a
commando of the Higher SS and Police Leaders on 13 October, 1941".
In this series of massacres under Jeckeln's personal management up to
October, 1941, more than 100.000 people were murdered.
3.2.8 This series of mass murders are the basis for the activities of EG
C and the Police Battalion placed in the southern parts of the occupied
Soviet Union in late summer and fall. These units were already in part
directly involved in the major "actions" initiated by Jeckeln. Jeckeln
was the one who gave the decisive impulse which lead the commandos and
police battalions to go over to the total extermination of the Jewish
population.
3.2.9 - Erwin Schulz, the Commando Leader of EK 5 testified during his
stay in Berditschew (where the unit was stationed between the end of July
and the middle of August) that Rasch, Commander of the EG C, had called
him to Shitomir in order to explain to him that not only those Jews who
were employed but also their wives and children were to be shot. This
order, according to Rasch, came from Jeckeln.
3.2.10 The total eradication of all inhabitants of a location, including
the women and children by the EK 5 can be documented as of the middle of
September. On 15 September, the town of Bogusslaw, as explained in an
event report, "because of the execution of 322 Jews and 13 communist
functionaries" was declared "free of Jews." On 22 and 23 September, the EK
5 in Uman carried out a "major action" in which, according to their own
report, 1412 Jews were shot. In Cybulow on 25 September, 70 Jews were
shot, 537 Jews (men, women and children) on 4 October in Perejeslas and in
Koschewatoje shortly thereafter "all Jews of this place." were executed.
3.2.11 On the basis of the generalized order to murder issued in August,
the number of the people killed by the EK 5 increased considerably: For
the period from 7 September to 5 October, the Commando reported that "207
political functionaries, 112 saboteurs and looters as well as 8800 Jews
had been liquidated". A few weeks later, the Commando reported that "The
number of those executed by the EK 5 was altogether 15.110 on 20 October
1941.
3.2.12 - The EK 6 (sub-unit Kronberger) shot Jewish women starting in
October in Kriwoj-Rog, after Himmler had inspected this place on 3
October. On 20 October, Krivoj Rog was declared "free of Jews" (
judenfrei )." In the event report of 19 November Commando 6 stated that
"1000 further Jews had been shot".
3.2.13 - In the area of Shitomir from the beginning of August, the
Commando 4 a shot women in great numbers, shortly thereafter also
children. Thus also in Bjelaja-Zerkow 500 men and women were shot on 8 or
9 August, the Jewish children on 19 August and on 22 August, by the
advance party of SK 4a, which was scheduled to go to Kiev. According to
the reports of the Commando, in the month of August, in Fastov "the
entire Jewish population aged 12 to 60, altogether 252 head, shot" . In
Radomyschle on 6 September, 1668 Jewish men, women and children were
executed. Also in Shitomir, their main base where a ghetto had been set
up, the Commando proceeded to murder all Jewish inhabitants regardless of
age or sex. After multiple mass executions in the second half of August
with several thousand people as victims, 3145 Jews were shot in the course
of liquidating the ghetto on 19 September 1941, according to the report of
the Commando.
3.2.14 - The Police Battalion 45, which belonged to the Police Regiment
South, proceeded to murder Jews regardless of their age or sex at the end
of July-beginning of August. The first victims were the entire Jewish
population of the town of Schepetowka, where the Battalion had been based
between 26 July and 1 August, 1941; according to the declaration of the
Battalion Commander, Besser, made after the war, this involved 40 to 50
men and women, probably however even more. Besser declared on this point
that he had been following an order of the Commander of the Police
Regiment South, who in turn referred to a general order for liquidation
issued by Himmler.
3.2.15 In the following weeks, the Battalion repeated this pattern in
other Ukrainian villages: among others, it killed Jewish men and women in
Slawuta (according to the declaration of the HSSPF Russia South this
included 522 persons), in Sudylkow (471 dead) as well as in Berditschew
(1000 victims). When Besser's successor, Rosenbauer, was being briefed on
his tasks as Battalion Commander by the Higher SS and Police Leader of
Russia South, Jeckeln, he was given very clear instructions, according to
his own statements: "Jeckeln said that the order of Reichsführer SS
Himmler was the basis for the solution of the Judenfrage: The Ukrainians
should become a Helot (slave) people who work only for us. We had no
interest, however, in having the Jews multiply: therefore the Jewish
population had to be exterminated."
3.2.16 - Also the Police Battalion 314, which belonged to the Police
Regiment South as well, shot women and children as early as July. This
can be documented for the first time in the case of a company of the
Battalion on 22 July in a place in the area of Kovel: in the private diary
of a member of the Battalion it is stated that on this day 217 people,
among them entire families, had been shot.
</quote>
SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln
(http://www.vernetztes-gedaechtnis.de/jeckeln.htm) distinguished himself
as a mass murderer first as commander of the 1st SS Brigade of
Einsatzgruppe C in southern Russia and Ukraine during the summer of 1941,
then as the Higher Police Chief in Ostland and northern Russia from the
autumn of 1941 until the end of the war in 1945. His career can be
followed in documents generated by the German military and civilian
bureaucracies
[http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/index.html]. He
cannot simply be dismissed as never having existed or never having
committed criminal acts.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
EmilM...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Eugene Holman wrote:
> > In article <1114485233.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> > EmilM...@yahoo.com wrote:
<deletions>
> Apparently there were many pogroms committed by the locals, some
> Latvians.
> >From the Jewish/German newspaper Hagalil:
> "Letten, die Juden mordeten, *bevor* die Deutschen Besatzer im Juni
> 1941
> Lettland besetzten, und danach mit deutscher Hilfe ihre bestialischen
> Taten fortsetzten, wurden gern in die SS-Einheit integriert."
> (Latvians who murdered Jews before the German occupiers arrived in June
> 1941 and then continued their brutal deeds with German help were often
> integrated in SS-units)
> http://hagalil.org/hagalil/archiv/99/03/letten.htm
>
> The pogroms occurred in all Baltic states,
There was only one pogrom in Estonia, the burning of a synagogue in Pärnu,
and only a few in Latvia.
> East Poland, White Russia
> and the Ukraina. People suffered under the Soviet occupation and let it
> out at the Jews when the Soviets were retreating.
Not without some crafty scapegoating by the Nazis, who propagandized to
the locals that *all* Jews were responsible for Bolshevism and should be
collectively punished for it.
> The instructions given to the Einsatzgrupen were clear:
> This conclusion is strengthened by the contents of an order dated July
> 2, 1941, issued by Heydrich himself to the H=F6here SS und
> Polizeif=FChrer in the occupied Soviet territories. Heydrich repeated to
> them in summary form the instructions he had already issued directly to
> the Einsatzgruppen. The relevant passage of this document, which only
> surfaced in the 1960s although its authenticity has since been verified
> by specialists in the field, states:
> EXECUTIONS.
Despite what Morghus claims, I assume that you understand "executions" [=
Exekutionen] to mean officially sanctioned killings.
> The following will be executed:
> Functionaries of the Comintern (most of who are simply professional
> Communist politicians).
> Functionaries of higher and medium rank and "radicals" in the Party,
> the Central Committee, and the regional and district committees.
> Commissars of the People. Jews in the Service of the Party and the
> State. Other radical elements (saboteurs, propagandists, snipers,
> assassins, agitators, etc.)...
> No actions should be taken to interfere with any activities that may be
> started by anti-Communist or anti-Jewish elements in the newly occupied
> territories. Rather, these are to be secretly encouraged. Nonetheless,
> all care must be taken to ensure that those who get involved in these
> local "self defence" activities are not able to claim later that they
> were merely following instructions or had been promised political
> protection. [167]
>
<deletions>
>
> I am familiar with these police decodes. It was the subject of many
> discussions on other forums. But where does it say, that these people
> were to be shot? Don't you jump here to conclusions?
>
> Anyway, I did check Himmler's Dienstkalender for that date of
> 4/12/1941 (European date).
>
> Here is what he entered for that date:
> 11.45 Gmund Gudrun
> 12.00 SS-Oberf=FChrer Brack
> 12.h Reichsmarschall Berlin
> 13.10 Staatssekr. Muhs
> 13.30 Mittagessen
> (Himmler mittags als Gast bei Hitler zusammen mit Rosenberg und
> Bouhler)
>
> There is no entry about Jeckeln at all. Neither for the week before
> this date nor for the week after.
There is reference to a meeting scheduled for 21.30 with Obergruppenführer
Jeckeln concerning the Jewish question [= Judenfrage] in Himmler's desk
diary for December 4, 1941 [facsimile at
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Note041241.html].
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
<deletions>
> SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln
> (http://www.vernetztes-gedaechtnis.de/jeckeln.htm) distinguished himself
> as a mass murderer first as commander of the 1st SS Brigade of
> Einsatzgruppe C in southern Russia and Ukraine during the summer of 1941,
> then as the Higher Police Chief in Ostland and northern Russia from the
> autumn of 1941 until the end of the war in 1945. His career can be
> followed in documents generated by the German military and civilian
> bureaucracies
> [http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/index.html]. He
> cannot simply be dismissed as never having existed or never having
> committed criminal acts.
[Repost with minor changes and updates of a posting from July 14, 2000]
SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Friedrich Jeckeln (1895-1946) is not an everyday name
among students of the Holocaust
(http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/jec1z3.html).
However, he played a key role during the first phase of the Holocaust,
when German policy towards Jews in occupied Eastern Europe was to identify
and ghettoize them, and then kill as many of them as possible, often in
semi-public mass-shootings on the outskirts of cities.
Appointed chief of police for Ostland (= Nazi-occupied Estonia, Latvia,
and Lithuania) and Northrn Russia, Friedrich Jeckeln played an important
part in planning, organizing, and overseeing the implementation of such
actions in which several hundred thousand Jews were killed. Jeckeln thus
bears the responsibility for being one of the major Nazi mass
murderers.
What kind of a man was Friedrich Jeckerln? The net contains an archive
with scanned copies of 228 documents pertaining to Jeckeln
(http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/index.html). They
trace his career and shed some light on the life and personality of a
figure who, unlike Rudolf Höß, is an unsung figure of the Holocaust
despite having supervised a substantial part of the day-to-day work of
implementing it and being responsible, like Höß, for having organized the
deaths of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people. Not
surprisingly, Jeckeln received recognition for his work from his
employers. In August 1944 he was awarded the gem-studded Knight's Cross by
Hitler. A year later he was in a Soviet prison as a war criminal along
with the other Nazis who had administered the Baltics from Riga during the
war. Jeckeln was hanged as a war criminal on February 3, 1946
(http://www.heritagefilms.com/LATVIA.html).
According to his excerpt from SS records
(http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/do9c12/jec228z3.html),
Friedrich Jeckeln was born at Hornberg (Baden) on February 2, 1895. He
began his military service in 1914 just before the outbreak of WW II,
served through the entire war, rising to the rank of lieutenant, and was
released on January 20, 1919. He studied and became an engineer, and when
he was 23 years old he married Charlotte Hirsch, a half-Jew who had an
Aryan mother and a Jewish father, Paul Hirsch. The couple had three
children, but they went their separate ways in 1926. Jeckeln eventually
remarried and had two more children. He was ordered by the local court to
pay maintenance for his estranged family, but he had lost his job as an
engineer and could not find a new one. The bailiffs were unable to seize
any assets from him, and the children's grandfather contributed what he
could towards the family's support.
Friedrich Jeckeln became Nazi Party member no. 163378 on October 10,
1929. He joined the SS shortly after on December 1, 1930, and rose
quickly to the ranks of Standartenführer (June 22, 1931), Oberführer
(Sept. 22, 1931), and Gruppenführer (February 4, 1933).
On February 5, 1932, Jeckeln's estranged wife wrote a personal letter to
Adolf Hitler, who had, of course, not yet become the leader of Germany.
This letter,
(http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/jec16z3.html)
written by a half-Jew who considers herself a German is worth reproducing
here in its entirety:
<quote>
To Mr. Adolf Hitler.
Since your movement is a genuinely German one and you want to help the
Germans, perhaps it would also be possible for you to help three German
children obtain what is their due. Your Standartenführer Friedrich
Jeckeln, living in Hannover, has been separated for almost seven years,
that is to say, is living apart from his family. According to a court
decision he, as the person recognized as responsible for the breakdown of
the marriage, has the duty to provide for his first wife and his three
children. Forced by a legal action to take an oath of disclosure, he has
not paid a penny for his children. Instituting new legal action would, of
course, produce no further results, despite the fact that Mr. Jeckeln,
being a Standartenführer, certainly has an income. Up until now, the
children's grandfather has been providing for them, but since the hard
times have resulted in him losing all of his assets in agriculture, it is
impossible for him. On March 5 our plot of land is to be auctioned off and
as a single mother it will then be almost impossible for me to provide for
three chilren in these difficult times, and my parents are also old. My
request is that you make Mr. Jeckeln hand over a part of his income as
Standartenführer for his children.
Respectfully,
Mrs. Charlotte Jeckeln
Herzberg, Post Gottswalde
Danziger Niederung
Freistaat Danzig
</quote>
What action Hitler took is unclear, but in 1933 Jeckeln rose to the rank
of Gruppenführer, and by 1936 he was SS-Obergruppenführer, putting him in
the top ranks of the SS generals.
When the war broke out in 1939 Jeckeln served on the front in France. When
Germany attacked the USSR, Jeckeln was immediately dispatched by Himmler
to the Ukraine, where, where he was appointed Senior Chief of the Police
and SS for southern Russia and the Ukraine, as well as commander of the
1st SS Brigade of Einsatzkommando C to oversee the extermination actions
against Jews which had begun there
[http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.com/evidence/pl230.asp]. While there,
he perfected the efficient mode of combining shooting with self-burial
which he called "Sardinenpackung"
[http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=980CE0DB153FF933A05755C0A9649C8B63].
Jeckeln's career continued with him being appointed Senior Chief of the
Police and SS for Ostland (= Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania) and northern
Russia. He was stationed in Riga where he remained until August 1944.
During his tenure the Einsatzkommandos killed more then 130,000 Jews in
the Baltics and adjacent areas
[http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/jaeger-report/htm/intro000.htm],
and tens of thousands more were killed in
carefully organized mass shootings organized in various cities and towns
across the Baltics (see, e,g the map of the ass murders that took place in
Lithuania at
http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/jec211z3.html, and
the listing of and military report on Jews and others killed in the
Baltics under Jeckeln's supervisions and coordination as of Dec. 1, 1941 at
http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/jec122z3.html -
http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/jec129z3.html). Many
of these mass-executions were implemented using Jeckeln's famous method:
Source: http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/fg_stahlecker.htm
<quote>
Gertrude Schneider writes in her book Journey into Terror: The Story of
the Riga Ghetto (New York 1979,p.25):
In the forest adjoining the camp [Salaspils], graves had been prepared by
the inmates. After they had undressed, the victims were either shot
immediately at the edge of the graves or else they were ordered to lie
face down between the legs of those already shot, and were then killed.
The latter method saved much-needed space. It was invented by
Obergruppenfuhrer Friedrich Jeckein, who called it Sardinenpackung
(sardine packaging).
This was the renown German efficiency and order: Ordnung muss sein! ?
Order must prevail!
</quote>
Jeckeln is perhaps best known for having organized the liquidation of the
Jewish ghetto in Riga which began on November 1941 and ended a week later,
with more than 25,500 Jews from Riga and Berlin being shot and buried
using the efficient Sardinenpackung method.
The best treatment in English of the Riga killings is Andrew Ezergailis,
"The Holocaust in Latvia: 1941-1944", The Historical Institute of Latvia,
Riga, 1996, pgs. 239 - 270 [downloadable at
http://www.ithaca.edu/faculty/ezergail/RumbulaR.pdf]. This treatment is
based upon military, police,
and municipal records, as well as on an analysis of the various evidence
presented at trials dealing with the Riga shgooting held after the war in
Latvia (1946) and Hamburg (1973, 1975).
It involved identifying, ghettoizing, and dispossessing the entire Jewish
community of Riga, and marching them, 25,000 people, in columns of five
all day long on two days to a rather public place - a hillock some 250
meters from a local railway station and well within seeing and hearing
distance of that station. The entire city of Riga was talking about it by
the afternoon of November 30, 1941:
The mayor of Nazi-occupied Riga (Kommissarischer Oberbuergermeisier) from
1941 to 1944 was a Baltic German, Hugo Wittrock, who detested Latvian
nationalists. He wrote in his memoirs (published posthumously, Lueneburg
1979, pp. 37-38):
source: http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/fg_stahlecker.htm
<quote>
1941 was drawing to a close when a frightful event happened in Riga. On
the second Sunday of Advent rumors spread throughout the city that on
Hoherer SS- und Polizeifuehrer Jeckeln's orders, Jews had been taken from
the ghetto to a place about 10 kilometers outside Riga, and SS men had
shot them all - men, women, and children - in a mass grave and covered up
the bodies. It was said thousands were shot. When the frightful rumors
turned out to be true and details of the perpetuated crime became known,
there was a general feeling of shock about this inhuman action in the
city.... The local inhabitants... perhaps because of religious feelings
condemned the merciless shooting of unarmed men, women, and children, and
were deeply distressed at this ungodly cruelty. When shortly thereafter I
made the mood in Riga known to the Reichsminister in Berlin [Wittrock's
friend Alfred Rosenberg], I understood from his responses that the
frightful bloodshed was ordered and carried out over his head by higher
authorities.
</quote>
Gruppenführer Jeckeln organized the action, broke it down into
subcomponents, drew up the timetable, and selected the killing site. He
also coordinated this action with his superiors in Berlin so that a
trainload of German Jews from Berlin would arrive at the killing site at
Rumbula at 6 in the morning to be killed before the arrival of the first
Latvian Jews.
More than 1,700 people are known to have participated in the action,
including several hundred Latvian policemen from the precincts along the
route to the killing site who were issued special orders concerning their
responsibilities on November 30 and December 8. Members of the Latvian
component of the Sicherheitsdienst, the Riga district police, and the
Annas iela battalion of military police were also issued instructions to
participate in various capacities.
From Jeckeln's staff there were:
- Oberstormführer Herbert Degenhart, who accompanied Jeckeln during the
planning stage and, during the implementation stage, communicated and
explained Jeckeln's orders to the other participants.
- Unterstormführer Ernst Hemicker, the designer of the Rumbula pits.
- Sturmbannführer Walter Bruns, collector of valuables at the pits.
- Sturmbannführer Erich Zimmermann, in charge of transport.
- Johannes Zingler, one of the marksmen at the pits.
- Hauptmann Heinrich Oberwinder, coordinator of the work of the Latvian
and German police that participated in the Rumbula massacre. In
particular, he issued detailed orders to the Latvian precinct police who
provided many of the guards who supervised the ten-kilometer line of Jews
marching from the ghetto in central Riga to the killing site.
- Lieutenant Fredrich Jahnke organized the ghettoization of Rigas Jews in
September and October of 1941, as well as the liquidation of the ghetto in
conjunction with the mass shooting.
Sturmbannführer Bruns was eventually taken as a prisoner of war by the
British. He was secretly recorded talking about the Riga massacre in
considerable detail by British intelligence in April, 1945
[http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Bruns/index.html].
The Riga massacre was Jeckeln's finest hour, his greatest achievement. It
also rvelealed that mass shooting was not a feasible means of resolving
the 'Jewish problem'. Jeckeln's very success proved the logistical
problems and practical limitations on mass shootings. It was a high point
in the first phase of the exterminational phase of the Holocaust, but it
also aroused issues which resulted in the Germans deciding to develp new
and more discrete methodologies. The Riga massacre was the greatest, but
also the last, of the large-scale (= „ 10-E4 victims), semi-public
massacres in the parts of Nazi-occupied Europe under Jeckeln's
supervision.
Jeckeln proved himself to be a capable administartor and brave soldier.
But the war took its toll on him. In a handwritten personal letter to
Himmler dated May 18, 1944, Jeckeln informs the Reichsführer that his
second son from his first marriage, Klaus, who had a half-Jewish mother
and an SS-Obergruppenführer as his father, was had been missing for three
months and had presumably died a Heldentod - hero's death - on the Eastern
Front
in the Ukraine. His youngest son, Dieter, had died when undergoing medical
treatment for a inflammation of the brain on May 13, 1944
(http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/jec1z68.html). He
recived a personal note of condolence from Himmler on June 1, 1944
(http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/jec1z177.html. A
few months later Riga fell to the Soviets, and Jeckeln was sitting in one
of the Riga prison's which he had once administered as a war criminal.
He defended his actions as follows:
Source:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/j/jeckeln.friedrich/jeckeln-interrogation.1245
<quote>
The Interrogation of Friedrich Jeckeln [1]
The shootings were carried out under the direction of
Colonel Dr. Lange, Commander of the SD and Gestapo in
Latvia. Knecht was in charge of security at the liquidation
sites.[2] I, Jeckeln, took part in the shootings on three
occasions; the same holds for Lange, Knecht, Lohse, and
Lieutenant Colonel Osis, commander of the traffic police in
Riga.
Q: Who did the shooting?
A: Ten or twelve German SD soldiers.
Q: What was the procedure?
A: All of the Jews went by foot from the ghetto in Riga to
the liquidation site. Near the pits, they had to deposit
their overclothes, which were washed, sorted, and shipped
back to Germany. Jews-men, women, and children- passed
through police cordons on their way to the pits, where they
were shot by German soldiers.
Q: Did you report the execution of the order to Himmler?
A: Yes, indeed. I notified Himmler by phone that the ghetto
in Riga had been liquidated. And when I was in Loetzen,
East Prussia, in December 1941, I reported in person,
too.[3] Himmler was satisfied with the results. He said that
more Jewish convoys were due to arrive in Latvia, and these
| were to be liquidated by me also.
Q: Go into more detail.
A: At the end of January 1942,[4] I was at Himmler's
headquarters in Loetzen, East Prussia, to discuss
organizational matters regarding the Latvian SS legions.
There Himmler informed me that additional Jewish convoys
were due to arrive from the Reich and from other countries.
The destination point would be the Salaspils concentration
camp, which lay one and a quarter miles from Riga in the
direction of Duenaburg. Himmler said that he had not yet
determined how he would have them exterminated: whether to
have them shot on board their convoys or in Salaspils, or
whether to chase them into the swamp somewhere.
Q: How was the matter resolved?
A: It was my opinion that shooting would be the simpler and
quicker death. Himmler said he would think it over and then
give orders later through Heydrich.
Q: What countries were the Jews in Salaspils brought from?
A: Jews were brought from Germany, France, Belgium, Holland,
Czechoslovakia, and from other occupied countries to the
Salaspils camp. To give a precise count of the Jews in the
Salaspils camp would be difficult. In any case, all the Jews
from this camp were exterminated. But I would like to make
an additional statement while we are on this topic.
Q: What statement would you like to make?
A: I would like to state for the record that Goering shares
in the guilt for the liquidations of Jewish convoys that
arrived from other countries. In the first half of February
1942 I received a letter from Heydrich. In this letter he
wrote that Reich Marshal Goering had gotten himself involved
in the Jewish question, and that Jews were now being shipped
to the East for annihilation only with Goering's approval.
Q: This does not diminish your guilt. Describe your role in
the Jewish liquidations in Salaspils.
A: I have already said that I discussed the extermination of
Jews in Salaspils with Himmler in Loetzen. That alone makes
me an accessory to this crime. Beyond that, Jews were shot
in the Salaspils camp by forces recruited from my SD and
Security Police units. The commander of the SD and Gestapo
in Latvia, Lieutenant Colonel Dr. Lange, was directly in
charge of the shootings. Other officers who reported to me
on the shootings of Jews in the camp were the commander of
the SD and Gestapo in the Baltic States, Major General Jost;
Colonel of Police Pifrader; and Colonel of Police Fuchs.
Q: Specifically, what did they report to you?
A: They reported that two to three convoys of Jews were to
arrive per week, all subject to liquidation.
Q: Then the number of Jews shot in Salaspils ought to be
known too, isn't that correct?
A: Yes, of course. I can give you the approximate figures.
The first Jewish convoys arrived in Salaspils in November
1941. Then, in the first half of 1942, convoys arrived at
regular intervals. I
believe that in November 1941, no more than three convoys
arrived in all, but during the next seven months, from
December 1941 to June 1942, eight to twelve convoys arrived
each month.
Overall, in eight months, no less than fifty-five and no
more than eighty-seven Jewish convoys arrived at the camp.
Given that each convoy carried a thousand men, that makes a
total of 55,000 to 87,000 Jews exterminated in the Salaspils
camp.
Q: This figure sounds low. Are you telling the truth?
A: I have no other, more exact figures. It should be added,
however, that before my arrival in
Riga, a significant number of Jews in the Ostland and in
White Ruthenia were exterminated. I was informed of this
fact.[5]
Q: By whom, specifically?
A: Stahlecker; Pruetzmann; Lange; Major General Schroder,
the SS and Police Leader in Latvia;
Major General Moeller the SS and Police Leader in Estonia;
and Major General Wysocki the SS and Police Leader in
Lithuania.
Q: Be specific. What did they report?
A: Schroeder reported to me that over and above those Jews
who had been exterminated in the ghetto in Riga an
additional 70,000 to 100,000 Jews were exterminated in
Latvia. Dr. Lange directly oversaw these shootings. Moeller
reported that in Estonia everything was in order as far as
the Jewish question was concerned.
The Estonian Jewish population was insignificant, all in all
about 3,000 to 5,000 and this was reduced to nil. The
greater part were exterminated in Reval. Wysocki reported
that 100,000 to 200,000 Jews were exterminated-shot-in
Lithuania, on Stahlecker's orders. In Lithuania, the Jewish
exterminations were overseen by the commander of the SD and
Gestapo, Lieutenant Colonel of Police Jaeger. Later Jaeger
told me that he had become neurotic as a result of these
shootings. Jaeger was pensioned off and left his post for
treatment. All told, the number of Jews exterminated in the
actions in the Baltic East reached somewhere in the vicinity
of 190,500 to 253,500.[6]
Notes:
1. Minutes from Jeckeln's interrogation on 14 December 1945
(Major Zwetajew, interrogator; Sergeant Suur, interpreter),
pp. 8-13, Historical State Archives, Riga.
2. Max Knecht was the commander of the municipal police in
Latvia.
3. I.e., to Himmler's "Hochwald" headquarters in Loetzen.
4. I.e, 25 January 1942, 11:30 A.M. - 1:00 P.M.; per RFSS
appointments book, NS 19 DC/vorl. 12, Bundesarchiv, Koblenz.
On the same day Himmler made the following handwritten
entry, re: his telephone conversation "from the Wolfsschanze
17 [i.e., 5:00 EM.] SS Gr.F. Heydrich Prague: Jews into the
concentration camps" NS 19/neu 1439 Bundesarchiv, Koblenz.
5. Jeckeln was promoted on 31 October 1941 to Higher SS and
Police Leader for northern Russia (H.Q. Riga); Jeckeln,
personnel file, Berlin Document Center. A second promotion
to the rank of Leader of the SS Upper Section, "Ostland,"
occurred on 11 December 1941 (Bundesarchiv, Koblenz [NS 19
neu/2846]).
6. In reply to telegram number 1331 from the Security Police
of Riga (dated 6 February 1942), SS-Standartenfuehrer Karl Jaeger
reported the following from Kovno on 9 February 1942:
"Re: executions through 1 February 1942 by the Einsatzkommando 3A:
Jews: 136,421. Total: 138,272, of these, women: 55,556; children: 34,464"
(Institut fuer Zeitgeschichte 3253/63 Fb 76 [a]).
</quote>
Jeckeln was hanged in Riga on February 3, 1946
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
<deletions>
> SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln
> (http://www.vernetztes-gedaechtnis.de/jeckeln.htm) distinguished himself
> as a mass murderer first as commander of the 1st SS Brigade of
> Einsatzgruppe C in southern Russia and Ukraine during the summer of 1941,
> then as the Higher Police Chief in Ostland and northern Russia from the
> autumn of 1941 until the end of the war in 1945. His career can be
> followed in documents generated by the German military and civilian
> bureaucracies
> [http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/index.html]. He
> cannot simply be dismissed as never having existed or never having
> committed criminal acts.
[Repost with minor changes and updates of a posting from July 14, 2000]
SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Friedrich Jeckeln (1895-1946) is not an everyday name
among students of the Holocaust
(http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/jec1z3.html).
However, he played a key role during the first phase of the Holocaust,
when German policy towards Jews in occupied Eastern Europe was to identify
and ghettoize them, and then kill as many of them as possible, often in
semi-public mass-shootings on the outskirts of cities.
Appointed chief of police for Ostland (= Nazi-occupied Estonia, Latvia,
and Lithuania) and Northern Russia, Friedrich Jeckeln played an important
role in planning, organizing, and overseeing the implementation of such
actions in which several hundred thousand Jews were killed. Jeckeln thus
bears the responsibility for being one of the major Nazi mass murderers.
What kind of a man was Friedrich Jeckeln? The net contains an archive
could towards the family's support. The irony of this is that this
nsituation made Jeckeln the parasite of his Jewish father-in-law, even
though his later career was devoted to exterminating Jews as parasites of
the Germans and other peoples of Europe.
Eugene Holman
could towards the family's support. Ironically, this situation made
to the Ukraine, where he was appointed Senior Chief of the Police
and SS for southern Russia and the Ukraine, as well as commander of the
1st SS Brigade of Einsatzkommando C to oversee the extermination actions
against Jews that had begun there
[http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.com/evidence/pl230.asp]. While there,
he perfected the efficient mode of combining shooting with self-burial
which he called "Sardinenpackung"
[http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=980CE0DB153FF933A05755C0A9649C8B63].
Jeckeln's career continued with him being appointed Senior Chief of the
Police and SS for Ostland (= Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania) and Northern
Russia. He was stationed in Riga, where he remained until August 1944.
During his tenure there the Einsatzkommandos killed more then 130,000 Jews
in the Baltics and adjacent areas
[http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/jaeger-report/htm/intro000.htm],
and tens of thousands more were killed in carefully organized mass
shootings implemented in various cities and towns across the Baltics and
adjacent Belorussia (see, e,g the map of the mass murders that took place
in Lithuania at
http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/jec211z3.html, and
the listing of and military report on Jews and others killed in the
Baltics under Jeckeln's supervisions and coordination as of Dec. 1, 1941 at
http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/jec122z3.html -
http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/jec129z3.html). Many
of these mass-executions were implemented using Jeckeln's famous method:
Source: http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/fg_stahlecker.htm
<quote>
Gertrude Schneider writes in her book Journey into Terror: The Story of
the Riga Ghetto (New York 1979,p.25):
In the forest adjoining the camp [Salaspils], graves had been prepared by
the inmates. After they had undressed, the victims were either shot
immediately at the edge of the graves or else they were ordered to lie
face down between the legs of those already shot, and were then killed.
The latter method saved much-needed space. It was invented by
Obergruppenfuhrer Friedrich Jeckein, who called it Sardinenpackung
(sardine packaging).
This was the renown German efficiency and order: Ordnung muss sein! ?
Order must prevail!
</quote>
Jeckeln is perhaps best known for having organized the liquidation of the
Jewish ghetto in Riga, which began on November 1941 and ended a week later,
with more than 25,500 Jews from Riga and Berlin being shot and buried in
the Rumbula forest using the ruthlessly efficient Sardinenpackung
methodology.
The best treatment in English of the Riga killings is Andrew Ezergailis,
"The Holocaust in Latvia: 1941-1944", The Historical Institute of Latvia,
Riga, 1996, pgs. 239 - 270 [downloadable at
http://www.ithaca.edu/faculty/ezergail/RumbulaR.pdf]. Ezerhgailis's account is
based upon military, police, and municipal records, as well as on an
analysis of the various evidence presented at trials dealing with the
Rumbula shootings held after the war in Latvia (1946) and Hamburg, West
Germany (1973, 1975).
The Rumbula massacre involved identifying, ghettoizing, and dispossessing
the entire Jewish community of Riga, and marching them, close to 25,000
people, in columns of five all day long on two days to a rather public
place - a hillock some 250 meters from a local railway station and well
within seeing and hearing
distance of that station. The entire city of Riga was talking about it by
the afternoon of November 30, 1941:
The mayor of Nazi-occupied Riga (Kommissarischer Oberbuergermeisier) from
1941 to 1944 was a Baltic German, Hugo Wittrock, who detested Latvian
nationalists. He wrote in his memoirs (published posthumously, Lueneburg
1979, pp. 37-38):
Source: http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/fg_stahlecker.htm
participate in various capacities. The Latvian fascist organization, the
Arâjs Commando, was also represented among the participants.
From Jeckeln's staff there were:
- Oberstormführer Herbert Degenhart, who accompanied Jeckeln during the
planning stage and, during the implementation stage, communicated and
explained Jeckeln's orders to the other participants.
- Unterstormführer Ernst Hemicker, the designer of the Rumbula pits.
- Sturmbannführer Walter Bruns, collector of valuables at the pits.
- Sturmbannführer Erich Zimmermann, in charge of transport.
- Johannes Zingler, one of the marksmen at the pits.
- Hauptmann Heinrich Oberwinder, coordinator of the work of the Latvian
and German police that participated in the Rumbula massacre. In
particular, he issued detailed orders to the Latvian precinct police who
provided many of the guards who supervised the ten-kilometer line of Jews
marching from the ghetto in central Riga to the killing site.
- Lieutenant Fredrich Jahnke organized the ghettoization of Rigas Jews in
September and October of 1941, as well as the liquidation of the ghetto in
conjunction with the mass shooting.
Sturmbannführer Walter Bruns was eventually taken as a prisoner of war by the
British. He was secretly recorded talking about the Riga massacre in
considerable detail by British intelligence in April, 1945
[http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Bruns/index.html].
The Riga massacre was Jeckeln's finest hour, his greatest achievement. It
also revealed that mass shooting was not a feasible means of resolving
the 'Jewish problem'. Jeckeln's very success proved the logistical
problems of and practical limitations on mass shootings. It was a high
point in the first phase of the exterminational phase of the Holocaust,
but it also aroused issues which resulted in the Germans deciding to
develp new and more discrete methodologies. The Riga massacre was the
greatest, but also the last, of the large-scale (= „ 10-E4 victims),
semi-public massacres in the parts of Nazi-occupied Europe under Jeckeln's
supervision.
Jeckeln proved himself to be a capable administrator and brave soldier.
But the war took its toll on him. In a handwritten personal letter to
Himmler dated May 18, 1944, Jeckeln informs the Reichsführer that his
second son from his first marriage, Klaus, who had a half-Jewish mother
and an SS-Obergruppenführer as his father, was had been missing for three
months and had presumably died a Heldentod - hero's death - on the Eastern
Front in the Ukraine. His youngest son, Dieter, had died when undergoing medical
treatment for a inflammation of the brain on May 13, 1944
(http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/jec1z68.html). He
received a personal note of condolence from Himmler on June 1, 1944
Eugene Holman
"morghus" <mor...@MailAndNews.com> wrote:
<deletions>
>
> Now, let's see--you cite one document, and only one, that says "Keine
> Liquidierung," i.e., "no liquidation," and you want us to accept that
> one document as proof of mass murder? And you even ask: what could be
> better? Well, I suppose we have to make allowances for holocaust
> believers. That is probably indicative of the real evidence they can
> produce to support the holocaust tale. It makes sense; there is no
> evidence. There can't be--the holocaust is a lie.
This is from the memoirs of Hugo Wittrock, the mayor (Kommissarischer
Oberbuergermeisier) of Nazi-occupied Riga from 1941 to 1944. Wittrock was
a Baltic German. He wrote the following account of the Rumbula massacre in
his memoirs (published posthumously, Lueneburg 1979, pp. 37-38):
Source: http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/fg_stahlecker.htm
<quote>
1941 was drawing to a close when a frightful event happened in Riga. On
the second Sunday of Advent rumors spread throughout the city that on
Hoherer SS- und Polizeifuehrer Jeckeln's orders, Jews had been taken from
the ghetto to a place about 10 kilometers outside Riga, and SS men had
shot them all - men, women, and children - in a mass grave and covered up
the bodies. It was said thousands were shot. When the frightful rumors
turned out to be true and details of the perpetuated crime became known,
there was a general feeling of shock about this inhuman action in the
city.... The local inhabitants... perhaps because of religious feelings
condemned the merciless shooting of unarmed men, women, and children, and
were deeply distressed at this ungodly cruelty. When shortly thereafter I
made the mood in Riga known to the Reichsminister in Berlin [Wittrock's
friend Alfred Rosenberg], I understood from his responses that the
frightful bloodshed was ordered and carried out over his head by higher
authorities.
</quote>
For more on Hugo Wittrock, see
http://www.dialogi.lv/article.php?id=796&t=11&rub=0 [in German].
When Wittrock wrote his memoirs he was not threatened by the Soviets or
the Americans. If the massacre never took place, why should what he wrote
be so consistent with other contemporary accounts? What purpose would it
serve for him, a German serving in a high position in the occupation
administration, to fabricate such a tale?
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
"morghus" <mor...@MailAndNews.com> wrote:
<deletions>
>
>
> Now, let's see--you cite one document, and only one, that says "Keine
> Liquidierung," i.e., "no liquidation," and you want us to accept that
> one document as proof of mass murder? And you even ask: what could be
> better? Well, I suppose we have to make allowances for holocaust
> believers. That is probably indicative of the real evidence they can
> produce to support the holocaust tale. It makes sense; there is no
> evidence. There can't be--the holocaust is a lie.
Source:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/einsatzdec.html
<quote>
Military Tribunal II
Palace of Justice
Nuremberg, Germany
8 April 1948
The United States of America
- vs -
OTTO OHLENDORF, HEINZ JOST, ERICH NAUMANN,
OTTO RASCH, ERWIN SCHULTZ, FRANZ SIX, PAUL
BLOBEL, WALTER BLUME, MARTIN SANDBERGER,
WILLY SEIBERT, EUGEN STEIMLE, ERNST BIBER-
STEIN, WERNER BRAUNE, WALTER HAENSCH,
GUSTAV NOSSKE, ADOLF OTT, EDUARD STRAUCH,
EMIL HAUSSMAN, WOLDEMAR KLINGHOFFER,
LOTHAR FENDLER, WALDEMAR VON RADETZKY,
FELIX RUEHL, HEINZ SCHUBERT, and MATTHIAS
GRAF,
Defendants
<deletions>
Authenticity of Reports
The story of the Einsatzgruppen and the Einsatzkommandos is not something
pieced together years after their crimson deeds were accomplished. The
story was written as the events it narrates occurred, and it was authored
by the doers of the deeds. It was written in the terse, exact language
which military discipline requires, and which precision of reporting
dictates.
The maintenance of an army in invaded territory and the planning of future
operations demands cold factuality in reports, which requirement was
rudimentary knowledge to all members of the German Armed Forces. Thus,
every subkommando leader was instructed to inform his kommando leader of
developments and activities in his field of operations, every kommando
leader in
turn accounted to the Einsatzgruppe leader, and the Einsatzgrupp leader by
wireless and by mail reported to the RSHA in Berlin. These accounts were
veiled in secrecy but they were not so covert that they did not come to
the attention of the top ranking military and political officials of the
regime. In fact, at the capital, they were compiled, clasified,
mimeographed and distrubuted to a selected list. These are the reports
which have been submitted in evidence.
<deletions>
A report dated 16 January 1942, accounting for the activities of
Einsatzkommando 2. stated that in Riga on 30 November 1941:
"10,600 Jews were shot." (NO3405)
In time the authors of the reports apparently tired of the word shot, so,
within the narrow compass of expression allowed in a military report, some
variety was added. A report originating in Latvia read:
"The Higher SS and Police leader in Riga, SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Jeckeln,
has meanwhile embarked on a shooting action (Erschiessungsaktion) and on
Sunday, the 30 November 1941, about 4,000 Jews from the Riga Ghetto and an
evacuation transport from the Reich were disposed of." (NO-3257)
And so that no one could be in doubt as to what was meant by "'disposed
of", the word "killed" was added in parentheses.
<deletions>
</quote>
Source: http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/osr151.html
<quote>
Operational Situation Report USSR No. 151
The Chief of the Security Police and Security Service
Berlin,
January 5, 1942
65 copies
----------------
(65th copy)
Operational Situation Report USSR No. 151
<deletions>
Erei
All the Jews, without exception, in the General Kommissariats Lithuania
and Latvia, are now interned in ghettos. The Jews of the Riga Ghetto who
are employed by the German Army and civilian authorities, are no longer
permitted to go freely to their places of work. In the morning, they are
picked up in closed columns by authorized personnel who then escort them
from the ghetto to their work place., and returning them in the evening
the same way.
In Minsk, as well as in Riga, everything is prepared for the reception of
the Jewish transports from Germany. The first transport, composed of Jews
from Hamburg, arrived in Minsk on November 10, 1941. On the same day, the
Jews were assigned living quarters. It was observed that some of the Jews
had a totally mistaken picture about their future. They imagined, for
example, that they are pioneers and will be used to colonize the East. The
first three transports that were to come to Riga were sent to Kaunas. The
Riga camp that is to admit about 25,000 Jews is being built and will be
completed very soon.
In the meantime, the Higher SS Police in Riga, SS-Obergruppenfuhrer
Jeckeln started a [mass] shooting action on Sunday, November 30, 1941. He
removed about 4,000 Jews from the Riga ghetto and from an evacuation
transport of Jews from Germany. (1) The action was originally intended to
be carried out with the forces of the Higher SS and Police Chief; however,
after a few hours, 20 men of Ek 2 who were sent there for security
purposes were also employed in the shooting.
(1) In fact, the action took place on November 30. Of approximately 10,600
victims, 1000 were from a transport of deportees from Berlin, and the rest
from the ghetto (see Report 156). The remaining Jews were killed a week
later on December 8 (see report 155).
Arad, Yitzak, Shmuel Krakowski and Shmuel Spector, editors. The
Einsatzgruppen Reports. New York: Holocaust Library. 1989, pp. 268-269
</quote>
Regards,
Eugene Holman
EmilM...@yahoo.com
> In article <1114575019....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
[...]
>
> Despite what Morghus claims, I assume that you understand
"executions" [=
> Exekutionen] to mean officially sanctioned killings.
>
No.
The meaning of the word 'exekutieren" in German means according to
todays 'Duden': "vollstrecken, ausführen" and depends on the
context. The word is not often used. This word was at that time
considered a "Fremdwort" and it was at that time fashionable to
replace "Fremdwörter" with Germanized words.
But you are the linguist here. Maybe you can straighten me out on this.
I don't have a copy of Heydrichs order in the original German. I just
quoted the English version from another paper.
[...]
>
> There is reference to a meeting scheduled for 21.30 with
Obergruppenführer
> Jeckeln concerning the Jewish question [= Judenfrage] in Himmler's
desk
> diary for December 4, 1941 [facsimile at
> http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Note041241.html].
>
> Regards,
> Eugene Holman
Interesting.
So now we have Himmler's entry in his Dienstkalender, which makes no
reference at all to Jeckeln for the date in question, and a sheet from
his desk appointment calender which is in a Moscow archive, which does
mention Jeckeln and which is signed by Hauptsturmführer and Adjudant
Grothmann.
So, which one is correct?
And Jeckeln was hanged by the Soviets. I wonder whether that sheet from
the desk calender was used during the Soviet trial of the man. And were
all sheets on that calender signed by Grothmann or only this one.
Eugene Holman
"morghus" <mor...@MailAndNews.com> wrote:
<deletions>
>
> Well gee, Eugene; show us one or two of those official documents
> generated by Jackeln's bureaucracy that refer to a massacre at Rumbula,
> or any other place around Riga. That ought to be pretty easy.
<deletions>
Source: http://www.dialogi.lv/article.php?id=796&t=11&rub=0
From: Scherwitz: der judische SS-Offizier
Anita KUGLER
07.03.2005 06:00
Vortrag-Zusammenfassung
<quote>
<deletions>
Bürgermeister Wittrock ist entsprechend empört. Nicht über die
Massenerschießung, sondern weil die «Umsiedlung» so «plötzlich» erfolgt
und ihm damit die Möglichkeit genommen ist, die Juden nach Vorschrift
auszurauben. Alles war doch schon eingeleitet. Seine Behörde besitzt
Tausende von Formularen, auf denen die Bewohner des Ghettos ihr Vermögen,
einschließlich Eheringen, aufgelistet haben. Die Beschlagnahmungsaktion
der Zivilverwaltung hätte am Montag, den 1. Dezember, beginnen sollen. Für
das Bargeld ist schon ein Sonderkonto bei der Reichskreditkasse
eingerichtet und für den Schmuck Tresore sind angemietet. Dann kommt
«plötzlich die Umsiedlungsaktion». Bei ihrem «Auszug aus dem Ghetto»,
beklagt sich Wittrock bei dem für den Massenmord verantwortlichen SS- und
Polizeiführer Jeckeln, «haben die Juden einen großen Teil ihres Eigentums
mitgenommen und somit meiner tatsächlichen Verfügungsgewalt entzogen».
Über die auf seinem Hoheitsgebiet erschossenen Juden verliert er kein
Wort. Auch gegenüber seinem Vorgesetzten, dem Reichskommissar Lohse,
erlaubt sich Wittrock kein Wörtchen menschlichen Gefühls. Und in seinen
«Erinnerungen» hat er seine Klagen über das seiner Behörde entzogene
jüdische Vermögen vergessen.
(....)
In den Akten des Bundesarchivs finden sich eine ganze Reihe Briefe, in
denen sich das Generalkommissariat darüber beschwert, daß die Uhren, die
die SS bei der dafür zuständigen «Treuhandverwaltung» abgeliefert hat,
«unecht» seien und die Schmuckstücke «billige Plagiate». Nur das jüdische
«Umzugsgut» und das Mobiliar der «verlassenen Judenwohnungen» in der Stadt
landet allmählich in den Depots des Generalkommissariats und wird von der
Treuhandverwaltung entweder an deutsche Zivilbeamte vermietet oder
bedürftigen Letten überlassen.
Interessenten haben sich zu bewerben, und sie tun es ungeniert in Briefen
wie diesen: «Bitte um die Bewilligung, (...) von den Sachen der Juden aus
dem Ghetto folgende Gegenstände zu kaufen. 1 Schreibtisch mit Stuhl, 1
Bücherschrank. 2 Liegestühle (....) Bemerke, daß ich beim Judensäubern
teilgenommen habe.» Oder: «Bitte um die Bewilligung (....) von den Sachen
im Ghetto folgende Gegenstände zu kaufen. 6 Eßstühle, 1 Kinderstuhl (....)
Bemerke, daß ich beim Judentransport und Reinigung teilgenommen habe.»
Oder: «Ich wende mich mit der ergebensten Bitte mir folgende Gegenstände
aus dem Ghetto zuteilen zu wollen: 12 Suppenteller, 12 Frühstücksteller, 6
Fischmesser, (....) Ich habe mich auch bei der Judenaktion beteiligt.»
Die Liste ließe sich endlos fortsetzen. Ein Oberkriegsrat will aus dem
«Judenvermögen» Einrichtungsgegenstände für eine Acht-Zimmerwohnung, ein
deutschbaltischer Rücksiedler bittet für seine «begabte» zehnjährige
Tochter um «Nutznießung eines Klavier aus den Judenwohnungen», eine ledige
Mutter um «einen Kinderwagen aus dem Ghettovermögen», Kasinos wollen
«Geschirr», Wehrmachtsstellen «Lampen», das Kriegswerk der Daimler-Benz AG
in Riga «Gefäße zum Essenfassen» aus dem Ghetto, die Oberpostdirektion
«Bratpfannen und Fußabtreter», Pensionen wollen «Betten», Lazarette
«Bademäntel», die Gold- und Silberscheideanstalt «Eheringe für Zahngold»,
Antiquitätenhändler «Silberbecher» aus dem «Umzugsgut», ein Bildhauer
«Andenkensachen». Alle wollen sie etwas, und alle wissen genau, wem es
zuvor gehört hat. «Jüdisches gibt es nur noch in den geschlossenen
Kramläden und in den Kulturzerstörungen des Bolschewismus», steht in einem
Reiseführer für deutsche Soldaten», der Ende 1941 von der Feldkommandantur
herausgegeben wird.
Wittrocks Behörde bleibt auf ihren 13.652 «Anmeldungen für das jüdische
Vermögen» sitzen, die sie für die unterbliebene Beschlagnahmungsaktion im
Ghetto vorbereitet hat. «Diese Anmeldungen haben aber zur Zeit nur noch
rein historischen Wert, da die Juden, die Anmeldungen abgegeben haben,
sich seit Dezember v. J. nicht mehr in Riga befinden», heißt es in einer
Art Abschlußbericht an den Generalkommissar vom August 1942. So elegant
ist der Massenmord nirgendwo sonst umschrieben worden.
<deletions>
</quote>
Eugene Holman
EmilM...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Eugene Holman wrote:
> > In article <1114575019....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> [=2E..]
> >
> > Despite what Morghus claims, I assume that you understand
> "executions" [=3D
> > Exekutionen] to mean officially sanctioned killings.
> >
>
> No.
> The meaning of the word 'exekutieren" in German means according to
> todays 'Duden': "vollstrecken, ausf=FChren" and depends on the
> context. The word is not often used. This word was at that time
> considered a "Fremdwort" and it was at that time fashionable to
> replace "Fremdw=F6rter" with Germanized words.
> But you are the linguist here. Maybe you can straighten me out on this.
>
> I don't have a copy of Heydrichs order in the original German. I just
> quoted the English version from another paper.
In the language of the Ereignismeldungen as well as of legal documents
generated in the post-war trials that dealt with them, exekutieren with a
[+human] direct object, as in "Die Kinder des Juden Pliners sind zu
exekutieren." or its verbal noun Exekution with [+human] genitive
attribute functioning as a direct object equivalent, as in "Teilnahme an
mehreren Exekutionen polnischer Zivilisten in der Genickschussanlage." is
used as a synonym for Erschiessung, Massenerschiessung,
Gruppenerschiessung, Einzelerschiessung, and Tötung.
Source: http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/files/brd500.htm
<quote>
Verfahren Lfd.Nr. 500
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen in Lagern
Angeklagte:
Kremer, Johann Paul 10 Jahre
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Münster 601129
Tatland: Polen
Tatort: HS KL Auschwitz
Tatzeit: 4209-4211
Opfer: Juden, Häftlinge, Zivilisten
Nationalität: Deutsche, Französische, Niederländische, Polnische,
Slowakische, unbekannt
Dienststelle: Haftstättenpersonal KL Auschwitz
Verfahrensgegenstand: Straftaten eines Lagerarztes in Auschwitz. Teilnahme
an insgesamt 15 'Sonderaktionen', in deren Verlauf in Auschwitz
eintreffende jüdische Häftlinge in den Gaskammern mit Zyklon B getötet
wurden. Teilnahme an mehreren Exekutionen polnischer Zivilisten in der
Genickschussanlage. Tötung 6 weiblicher Häftlinge, die an einer Revolte im
Frauenstraflager Budy beteiligt gewesen sein sollen, durch Herzinjektion
von Phenol. Selektion kranker Häftlinge bei den 'Arztvorstellungen' im
Ambulanzraum; die ausgesonderten Häftlinge wurden mittels
Phenolinjektionen getötet. Selektion kranker Häftlinge im 'Krankenrevier'
zur Vergasung
Veröffentlicht in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XVII
</quote>
Source: http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/files/brd625.htm
<quote>
Verfahren Lfd.Nr. 625
Tatkomplex: NS-Gewaltverbrechen in Haftstätten, Verbrechen der Endphase,
Kriegsverbrechen
Angeklagte:
Hofmann, Franz Josef Freispruch
Kru., Stefan Freispruch
Schn., Helmut Freispruch
Wur., Eugen Freispruch
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Hechingen 660318
BGH 670718
Tatland: Deutschland, Estland, Frankreich
Tatort: HS KL Bisingen, HS KL Dautmergen, HS KL Neckargerach, HS KL
Markirch, HS KL Schörzingen, HS KL Schömberg, HS KL Spaichingen, HS KL
Vaivara, HS KL Vivikoni II, HS KL Ereda, HS KL Narwa, HS KL Lagedi, auf
dem Weg von dem KL Narwa in das KL Ereda, auf dem Weg von dem KL
Spaichingen nach Oberschwaben
Tatzeit: 43-45
Opfer: Juden, Häftlinge, Zigeuner, Kriegsgefangene
Nationalität: Estnische, Sowjetische, Polnische, Deutsche, Tschechische,
Litauische, Italienische, Französische, unbekannt
Dienststelle: Haftstättenpersonal KL Bisingen, Haftstättenpersonal KL
Dautmergen, Haftstättenpersonal KL Markirch, Haftstättenpersonal KL
Neckarelz, Haftstättenpersonal KL Neckargerach, Haftstättenpersonal KL
Schörzingen, Haftstättenpersonal KL Schömberg, Haftstättenpersonal KL
Spaichingen, Haftstättenpersonal KL Vaivara, Haftstättenpersonal KL
Vivikoni II
Verfahrensgegenstand: Tötung von Häftlingen durch Tottreten, Erschlagen,
Erwürgen, Erschiessen, Erhängen und Ertränken sowie im Rahmen von
Selektionen. Exekution geflüchteter und wieder aufgegriffener Häftlinge.
Exekutionen im Auftrag des RSHA. Tötungen bei Evakuierungsmärschen
Veröffentlicht in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XXIII
</quote>
Source: http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/files/brd639.htm
<quote>
Verfahren Lfd.Nr. 639
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen durch Einsatzgruppen
Angeklagte:
Ste., Hans-Helmut Freispruch
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Kassel 661123
Tatland: Litauen
Tatort: Polangen
Tatzeit: 410630
Opfer: Juden
Nationalität: Litauische
Dienststelle: Luftwaffe 6.Fluganwärterkompanie
Verfahrensgegenstand: Erschiessung von 111 Juden durch ein auf Anforderung
des EK Tilsit zur Verfügung gestelltes Exekutionskommando
Veröffentlicht in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XXIV
</quote>
Source: http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/files/brd630.htm
<quote>
Verfahren Lfd.Nr. 630
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen durch Einsatzgruppen, Kriegsverbrechen
Angeklagte:
Ra., Karl 5 Jahre
Schae., Theodor August Wilhelm Oswald Freispruch
Tan., Heinz 6 Jahre
Wiebens, Wilhelm Bernhard Paul lebenslänglich
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Berlin 660506
Tatland: GUS
Tatort: Witebsk, Lepel, Wjasma, Ghatzk, unbekannt (Raum Witebsk)
Tatzeit: 4111-4208
Opfer: Juden, Zigeuner, Häftlinge, Kriegsgefangene
Nationalität: Sowjetische
Dienststelle: Einsatzgruppen EK9
Verfahrensgegenstand: Massenerschiessung von Juden bei der
Ghettoliquidierung in Lepel und in einem unbekannten Ort im Raum Witebsk.
Tötung in mehreren Erschiessungsaktionen von jüdischen Kriegsgefangenen,
Häftlingen und Zigeunern sowie von ca. 80 sowjetischen Männern, die bei
einem Fliegerangriff auf Witebsk den sowjetischen Flugzeugen
Positionslichter gegeben haben sollten. Exekution von ca. 70 sowjetischen
Männern, weil Widerstandskämpfer die Sprengung einer Brücke über die Düna
vorbereitet hatten
Veröffentlicht in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XXIII
</quote>
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
> Eugene Holman wrote:
> > In article <1114575019....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> [=2E..]
> >
> > Despite what Morghus claims, I assume that you understand
> "executions" [=3D
> > Exekutionen] to mean officially sanctioned killings.
> >
>
> No.
> The meaning of the word 'exekutieren" in German means according to
> todays 'Duden': "vollstrecken, ausf=FChren" and depends on the
> context. The word is not often used. This word was at that time
> considered a "Fremdwort" and it was at that time fashionable to
> replace "Fremdw=F6rter" with Germanized words.
> But you are the linguist here. Maybe you can straighten me out on this.
>
> I don't have a copy of Heydrichs order in the original German. I just
> quoted the English version from another paper.
In the language of the *Ereignismeldungen* as well as of the legal documents
generated in the post-war trials that dealt with them, *exekutieren* with a
[+human] direct object, as in "Die Kinder des Juden Pliners sind zu
exekutieren." or its verbal noun *Exekution* with [+human] genitive
attribute functioning as a direct object equivalent, as in "Teilnahme an
mehreren Exekutionen polnischer Zivilisten in der Genickschussanlage." is
used as a synonym for *Erschiessung*, *Massenerschiessung*,
*Gruppenerschiessung*, *Einzelerschiessung*, and *Tötung*.
EXAMPLES:
Eugene Holman
"morghus" <mor...@MailAndNews.com> wrote:
<deletions>
> Unless other credible independent evidence exists to support the facts
> alleged, confessions obtained by Jewish/Russian sadists cannot be
> accepted by any rational person as proof of anything. And you have no
> other credible evidence. You have a confession obtained by a sadistic
> Jew supported by unbelievable testimony of other Jews seeking to kill
> the Germans after the war and make a little money on the side. That's
> hardly convincing evidence.
<deletions>
You do not want to accept a word contained in Jeckeln's interrogation in a
Soviet court as having any value whatsoever, even though what he says is
corroborated by notes in Himmler's diaries and other sources. That is your
privilege.
But what about the cases dealing with the Rumbula massacre tried in West
German courts during the 1970s. I do not have access to all of the
evidence presented, but I do have access to the case summaries and
sentences. Surely they indicate that crimes were committed in Riga in
conjunction with the liquidation of the Riga ghetto.
Polizeihauptwachtmeister Otto Tuchel, who received a life sentence in the
case no. 789 below, participated in the establishment of the Riga ghetto,
was the overseer of the Latvian ghetto guard, and, on November 30 and
December 8, participated in the organization of the columns to the killing
site in addition to taking part in the killing of the Jews who were
bedridden in the ghetto hospital. [Note: all of the sources below have the
same URL because the window is set up as a split screen with the places,
dates, and numbers of the trial in the left window, and the number of the
trial as a hyperlink. You access information about the case in question by
pressing the right-most number, e.g. 789 for the case below:
Source: http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Gericht03fr.htm
<quote>
Verfahren Lfd.Nr. 789
Tatkomplex: Andere Massenvernichtungsverbrechen
Angeklagte:
Die., Emil von Strafe abgesehen (§47 MStGB)
Jah., Friedrich Urteil vom BGH aufgehoben, dann verhandlungsunfähig
Neu., Max von Strafe abgesehen (§47 MStGB)
Tuchel, Otto lebenslänglich
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Hamburg 730223
BGH 740709
Tatland: Lettland
Tatort: Riga
Tatzeit: 4112
Opfer: Juden
Nationalität: Lettische
Dienststelle: Polizei Pol.Btl.21
Verfahrensgegenstand: Liquidierung des Rigaer Ghettos. Erschiessung von
mindestens 25.000 lettischen Juden im Wald von Rumbuli
Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung
</quote>
Source: http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Gericht03fr.htm
<quote>
erfahren Lfd.Nr. 843
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen durch Einsatzgruppen
Angeklagte:
May., Gerhard Kurt 4 Jahre
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Hamburg 770802
Tatland: Lettland
Tatort: HS KL Gut Jungfernhof (Jumpravas Muiza), HS AEL Salaspils, Riga
Tatzeit: 420102, 420130, 420205, 4203
Opfer: Juden
Nationalität: Deutsche, Lettische, Oesterreichische, unbekannt
Dienststelle: Einsatzgruppen EG A, Polizei Sipo Riga
Verfahrensgegenstand: Selektion von Wiener und Berliner Juden im Rigaer
Ghetto, die anschliessend in der Nähe Rigas erschossen wurden.
Massenerschiessung von mindestens 2000 arbeitsunfähigen Juden in Riga und
von mindestens 4000 arbeitsunfähigen Juden auf dem Gut Jungfernhof.
Einzelerschiessung von Juden im AEL Salaspils wegen mangelnder
Arbeitsleistung oder nach einem Fluchtversuch
Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung
</quote>
Source: http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Gericht03fr.htm
<quote>
Verfahren Lfd.Nr. 883
Tatkomplex: Massenvernichtungsverbrechen durch Einsatzgruppen
Angeklagte:
Tol., Karl 3? Jahre
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG Hamburg 830509
Tatland: Lettland
Tatort: Riga
Tatzeit: 42
Opfer: Juden
Nationalität: Lettische
Dienststelle: Einsatzgruppen EK2
Verfahrensgegenstand: Massenerschiessung von Juden im Bickernicker Wald,
im Ghetto Riga sowie in der Nähe von Riga
Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung
</quote>
The trials in Hamburg were not conducted in the tense atmosphere of the
trial in Riga, nor can you fault the West German judiciary for being
sadistic. Life sentences, such as the one that Otto Tuchel received, are
not given lightly in Germany. Convincing evidence had to be presented that
he participated in "Liquidierung des Rigaer Ghettos. Erschiessung von
mindestens 25.000 lettischen Juden im Wald von Rumbuli" in December, 1941.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
<deletions>
<deletions>
Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung
</quote>
Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung
</quote>
Veröffentlichung in Vorbereitung
</quote>
The trials in Hamburg were not conducted in the tense and hate-filled
atmosphere of Jeckeln's trial in Riga, nor can you fault the West German
judiciary for being sadistic. If there was no evidence whatsoever that a
massacre had taken place at Rumbula, as you claim, how could the massacre
have been the object of at least three separate trials and generated the
prison sentences that it did? Life sentences, such as the one that Otto
Tuchel received, are not given lightly by German courts. Convincing
evidence had to be presented that he and the others who received
sentences, such as Karl Tol[mans] and Gerhard May[wald] participated in
crimes such as "Liquidierung des Rigaer Ghettos. Erschiessung von
mindestens 25.000 lettischen Juden im Wald von Rumbuli" and
"Massenerschiessung von Juden ... im Ghetto Riga sowie in der Nähe von
Riga".
Regards,
Eugene Holman
morghus
> In article <1114552445.5...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> "morghus" <mor...@MailAndNews.com> wrote:
>
> <deletions>
> > No order to kill Jews was ever issued by any German, military or
> > civilian.
>
> Source: http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/ezergailis_preface.html
>
> <quote>
> <deletions>
> The Nazi agencies responsible for the killing of the Jews in Latvia
> started a misinformation program about the killing even before the
> killings took place. Hitler's refusal to attach a signature to
his
> order is an early indication.
Hitler never gave such an order. How could he attach his signature to
an order that didn't exist?
Thus a vacuum of information was created at
> the very top. The paper trail, as to who ordered whom, was broken,
and
> that has allowed for a variety of interpretations ever since. As
there
> were no written orders from above to the commanders of the
Einsatzgruppen,
> so there were no written orders from the commanders of the
Einsatzgruppen
> to the commanders of the Einsatzkommandos or any of the subsidiary
> Sicherheitspolizei und SD (in the future referred to as Security
Police
> and SD or simply as SD) units: Teilkommandos, Schiefikommandos,
> Rollkommandos. Nor are there any written orders from the German
commandos
> to the Latvian commandos or police forces.
Let's review your paragraph:
1. "[T]here were no written orders from above to the commanders of the
Einsatzgruppen,..."
2. "[T]here were no written orders from the commanders of the
Einsatzgruppen
to the commanders of the Einsatzkommandos..."
3. "...or any of the subsidiary Sicherheitspolizei und SD."
4. There were no "written orders from the German commandosto the
Latvian commandos or police forces."
O.K., there were no written orders from above or below--nothing from
Hitler, his commanders, any subsidiaries, or the local police. In
short: there were no written orders from anyone, any where, at anytime.
You went quite a long way around just to repeat what I said: "No order
to kill Jews was ever issued by any German, military or civilian." So
that's settled. What else do you have?
> The irony is that the rules of omerta
Omerta?! Eugene, you are confusing the holocaust tales with those
movies about the Sicilian Mafia. Try to stay awake and focus on the
subject at hand.
>held firm for orders and information flowing down, but the system
> broke down in the flow of information from the field to the Main
Office of
> Security Police and SD in Berlin, the Reichssicherheitshauptamt
(RSHA).
> Owing to the breakdown of secrecy, we have inherited the
Ereignismeldungen
> (EM) (frequently translated as Situation Reports), summaries of the
> Einsatzgruppen daily activities. In addition to the
Ereignismeldungen
> there are also the two Stahlecker's Consolidated Reports (15
October
> 1941 and 30 January 1942) that reveal the murderous Nazi design in
Latvia.
>
But Stahlecker's report doesn't mention and "murderous design." A
murderous design is a product of your active imagination. Stahlecker's
report only spoke about the resettlement of the Jews. Here's a
translation of part of Stahleker's report:
"In the Generalgouvernement there was no serious danger to in leaving
the Jews in their living quarters and work places. But in the Ostland,
the resident Jews or those brought in by the Red powers became the
leading supporters of the Bolshevik idea. Numerous Jews are openly
communist activists. The experience so far allows us to expect that,
even a long time after the military occupation of the Ost territory,
disorders will arise. Sabotage and acts of terror can be expected not
only from communists not caught in previous actions, but precisely from
Jews who will use every possibility to create disorder. The pressing
need to pacify the Ost area quickly makes it necessary to eliminate all
likely sources of disorder.
"The project apparently does not foresee the resettlement of the Jews
as
an immediate measure provided under paragraph V, but rather sees that
as a lower, later development.
"In closing, let me sum up by saying that the Jewish question shall be
solved by 1) a complete and 100 percent clearing of the Jews from the
Ost territory; 2) preventing the Jews from increasing their numbers; 3)
using the Jews to the fullest as a work force; 4) a considerable
facilitation for the later collective transport to a reservatrion
outside Europe."
Are you paying attention, Eugene? Stahlecker is referring to the final
solution of the Jewish problem, i.e., "collective transport to a
reservation outside Europe." The Jews were to be deported, not killed.
And by the way: what has any of this to do with the claim the Jackeln
killed people in the Ukraine?
> <deletions>
> </quote>
>
> > > The fact that Jeckeln had a record of mass murder in Ukraine and
was
> > then
> > > called to Latvia and eventually appointed head police officer in
> > German
> > > occupied Ostland is an indisputable historical fact.
> >
> >
> >
> > Oh God! Another "indisputable historical fact" for which no
evidence
> > exists. No record of mass murder in the Ukraine by Jackeln exists.
This
> > is standard holocaust propaganda.
> >
> <deletions>
>
>
> The summary below is based on reports from the Einsatzgruppen
recorded in
> the so-called Ereignismeldungen or Event Reports compiled by
Heydrich's
> staff in Berlin. One hundred and ninety-five Event Reports were
compiled
> between June 23, 1941, and April 24, 1942.
>
>
> Source: http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.com/evidence/pl230.asp
>
For heaven's sake, Eugene. We can't even be sure the Einsatzgruppen
reports and the situational reports are genuine. No one has ever seen
the original German language documents except the the prosecutors at
the post war trial. All we are allowed to see are the translations
concocted by the Jews on Ferencz's staff. Those translations are
questionable since some of them seem to say that the Jews were deported
while other claim the Jews were killed. Now you want us to accept a
summary of the translations as evidence?
<snip standard holocaust hogwash consisting of opinions, "confessions,"
and spurious testimony.>
We can conclude from the complete absence of any reference in your post
to any contemporaneous German official documents that you have no such
evidence to offer. We can also can conclude that your reference to
Jackeln's "record" in the Ukraine alluded to nothing but more of the
same quality of proof of a holocaust that's always offered: talk,
tales, opinions, and accusations. We can also conclude that the
holocaust is a lie.
morghus
I think I have an explanaton, Eugene. I went to another site quoting
from Hugo Wittrock's memoirs and found the part you cited plus a little
more. Check out:
http://www.centropa.org/reports.asp?rep=HR&ID=6873&TypeID=0
The excerpt from that cite contained the following additional
informaton from Wittrock's memoirs concerning Herberts Cukurs:
"After the war Cukurs found refuge in Brazil, running a boat and plane
rental service on the Rio de Janeiro beach, and later owned a banana
plantation. On February 24, 1965, he was killed in Uruguay's capital
Montevideo by members of a secret group called 'Those who do not
forget.' It is said that they were Israeli Mossad agents."
Now the reason why that quote is interesting is because it refers to a
murder committed in 1965. But Wittrock died in 1958, long before the
murder described in his "memoirs" ever took place. So if Wittrock wrote
those memoirs, he must have been able to see into the future.
>From that, we can all see that it would have been easy for Wittrock's
memoirs to be consistent with other contemporary accounts supporting
the holocaust; it would have been easy for Wittrock's memoirs to be
consistent with any of the holocaust tales. Because it was actually
written by some holocaust-promoting huckster long after Wittrock was
dead and in his grave. It's still another case of holocaust deception.
Chicanery like that should not be surprising; after all, the holocaust
is a lie.
sm...@nizkor.org
me you're not *really* that stupid.
Gord McFee
> Good Lord, Morg. Please tell me this is just a shot in the dark. Tell
> me you're not *really* that stupid.
Hate to disappoint you. :-)
--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time
Visit the Holocaust History Project
http://www.holocaust-history.org
Emil Müller
news:holman-2704...@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
[...]
I was talking about the original of the Heydrich order to the Einsatzgruppen
in German, not the various judgements of the German Holocaust trials.
Emil Müller
news:holman-2704...@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
>
[...]
surprisingly desinterested in the crime itself. Why did they not order
professional excavations of the alleged mass graves?
Their interest seemed to be mainly to get a confession from an alleged
perpetrator and bingo!
These trial were political trials.
sm...@nizkor.org
sm...@nizkor.org
Gord McFee
> Eugene Holman wrote:
>
>> In article <1114575019....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
>
> [...]
>
>> Despite what Morghus claims, I assume that you understand
>
> "executions" [=
>
>> Exekutionen] to mean officially sanctioned killings.
>
> No. The meaning of the word 'exekutieren" in German means according
> to todays 'Duden': "vollstrecken, ausführen" and depends on the
> context. The word is not often used. This word was at that time
> considered a "Fremdwort" and it was at that time fashionable to
> replace "Fremdwörter" with Germanized words. But you are the linguist
> here. Maybe you can straighten me out on this.
I am also a linguist, and perhaps this will help.
<quote>
"Special treatment". That is "Sonderbehandlung" in German.
Here is what Reinhard Heydrich, Chief of the Reich Main Security Office,
and responsible for the "Jewish question" had to say about
"Sonderbehandlung" in 1939. (Remember that Heydrich was assassinated in
1942, long before the nasty Russians or Americans could have tortured
him into writing this):
<quote>
Zur Beseitigung aller Mißverständnisse teile ich folgendes mit:
...ist zu unterscheiden zwischen solchen, die auf dem bisher üblichen
Wege erledigt werden können, und solchen, welche einer Sonderbehandlung
zugeführt werden müssen. Im letzteren Falle handelt es sich um solche
Sachverhalte, die hinsichtlich ihrer Verwerflichkeit, ihrer
Gefährlichkeit oder ihrer propagandistischen Auswirkung geeignet sind,
ohne Ansehung der Person durch rücksichtloses Vorgehen (nämlich durch
Exekution) ausgemerzt zu werden.
</quote>
[translation]
To clear up all misunderstandings, I inform you of the following:
... a differentiation is to be made between those who can be finished
off in the hitherto usual way, and those to whom a special treatment
applies. In the latter case, we are dealing with circumstances that
because of their degradation, their danger or their propaganda
consequences, it is appropriate without regard to the person, to
eliminate him through a ruthless procedure (namely by execution).
[/translation]
And here is what Heinrich Himmler wrote in 1942, once again long before
there were Americans or Russians lurking about.
<quote>
Bekämpfung der Diziplinwidrigkeit
(4) In besonders schweren Fällen ist beim Reichsicherheitshauptamt
Sonderbehandlung unter Angabe der Personalien und des genauen
Tatbestandes zu beantragen.
(5) Die Sonderbehandlung erfolgt durch den Strang.
</quote>
[translation]
Combatting adverseness to discipline
(4) In especially serious cases, special treatment is to be applied for
from the Reich Main Security Office by transmission of the particulars
and the exact facts of the case.
(5) Special treatment takes place by hanging.
[/translation]
</quote>
colonel_...@yahoo.com.au
"(5) Special treatment takes place by hanging. "
Is in fact taken from a Nuremberg document, which even if genuine, was
referring to Russian POWs who had committed crimes.
As can be clearly seen that special permission for applying special
treatment is needed, all details have to be reviewed by the central
office. This is obviously not a code word for a generic widespread
measure. The parts that Gordo snipped actually specified Russian POWs.
For christ sake, gordo, your evasions and misrepresentations are so
banal it is rather pathetic.
Kenneth McVay OBC
<sm...@nizkor.org> wrote:
>Good Lord, Morg. Please tell me this is just a shot in the dark. Tell
>me you're not *really* that stupid.
Stephen, old son. I recognize that the smog in your area tends to stifle one's senses, so
let me remind you who you are dealing with.
Of COURSE he is *really* that stupid, old son. He's a revisionist SCHOLAR.
(Can you imagine how his poor parents must feel,
knowing that they spawned this stupid pile of crap?)
the mind boggles...
You gonna be around next spring? Been pondering a visit, you know... ZOG duties and
all... I thought perhaps I could help you plot against the Russians or something...
--
The Nizkor Project - An electronic Holocaust educational resource
David Irving, Holocaust denial, and his connections to Right-Wing
Extremists and Neo-Nazism in Germany:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/f/funke-hajo/
Eugene Holman
<emil...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Eugene Holman" <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
> news:holman-2704...@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
> >
> [...]
> Like in all post war Holocaust trial by the Germans, the courts seem to be
> surprisingly desinterested in the crime itself. Why did they not order
> professional excavations of the alleged mass graves?
What would professional excavations of mass graves prove, particularly
bearing in mind that the Nazis had gone to considerable lengths to exhume
and burn the bodies in many mass graves? Two professional excavations at
mass graves in the Ukraine, at Ustonovka and Serniki (see
http://www.soton.ac.uk/~jb3/war/war.html), revealed that the mass murders
had taken place using the Jeckeln-devised *Sardinenpackung* method,
precisely as eyewitnesses had claimed. Exhuming other ones would reveal
the same thing. Military and municipal records as well as the testimony of
perpetrators and bystanders all indicate that the bodies of the more than
1,000 people shot in the Riga ghetto and along Maskavas iela (Moscow Road)
on November 30 and December 8 for straggling or attempting to escape were
gathered up, loaded onto open carts, and dumped into a mass grave blasted
open by the SS at the Old Jewish Cemetery in Central Riga which was later
marked by a huge headstone. The first day of the mass execution has been
locally called *Rigaer Blutsonntag* (see e.g.
http://www.fritz-bauer-institut.de/rezensionen/nl26/schmidt.htm) ever
since. What purpose would be served by disturbing their grave and exhuming
their remains?
> Their interest seemed to be mainly to get a confession from an alleged
> perpetrator and bingo!
>
> These trial were political trials.
All trials are political trials. People are put on trial because they have
allegedly violated the laws by which organized civil society functions.
The purpose of the trial is to determine whether the allegations are true
or not. The people who were put on trial for the Riga massacre in Germany
during the 1970s did not base their defense on claims that the massacre
never took place. They knew that they couldn't because there was massive
evidence, much of it military records and reports of assignments and
actions completed, of both the massacre and their participation in its
organization and implemenation. Their defense was based on the claim that
they were just following orders and would have been punished for
disobedience, not that the military records and reports were innacurate or
forgeries.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
> "Eugene Holman" <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
> news:holman-2704...@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
> >
> [...]
> Like in all post war Holocaust trial by the Germans, the courts seem to be
> surprisingly desinterested in the crime itself. Why did they not order
> professional excavations of the alleged mass graves?
What would professional excavations of mass graves prove, particularly
bearing in mind that the Nazis had gone to considerable lengths to exhume
and burn the bodies in many mass graves? Two professional excavations at
mass graves in the Ukraine, at Ustonovka and Serniki (see
http://www.soton.ac.uk/~jb3/war/war.html), revealed that the mass murders
had taken place using the Jeckeln-devised *Sardinenpackung* method,
precisely as eyewitnesses had claimed. Exhuming other ones would reveal
the same thing. Military and municipal records as well as the testimony of
perpetrators and bystanders all indicate that the bodies of the more than
1,000 people shot in the Riga ghetto and along Maskavas iela (Moscow Road)
on November 30 and December 8 for straggling or attempting to escape were
gathered up, loaded onto open carts, and dumped into a mass grave that had
been blasted open by the SS at the Old Jewish Cemetery in the Jewish
ghetto in Central Riga. The grave was later marked by a huge headstone.
The first day of the mass execution has been locally called *Rigaer
Blutsonntag* (see e.g.
http://www.fritz-bauer-institut.de/rezensionen/nl26/schmidt.htm) ever
since. What purpose would be served by disturbing their grave and exhuming
their remains?
> Their interest seemed to be mainly to get a confession from an alleged
> perpetrator and bingo!
They didn't need to *get* confessions, some of the perpetrators had been
ready to volunteer information years before:
Source: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Bruns/CSDIC.html
<quote>
TOP SECRET
C. S. D. I. C. (U.K.)
G.G. REPORT
IF THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS REPORT IS REQUIRED FOR FURTHER
DISTRIBUTION. IT SHOULD BE PARAPHRASED SO THAT NO MENTION IS MADE OF THE
PRISONERS' NAMES, NOR OF THE METHODS BY WHICH THE INFORMATION HAS BEEN
OBTAINED
S.R.G.G. 1158(C)
The following conversation took place between:
CS/1952 -- Generalmajor BRUNS (Heeres-Waffenmeisterschule I, BERLIN) Captd
GÖTTINGEN 8 Apr 45
and other Senior Officer PW whose voices could not be identified.
Information received: 25 Apr 45
GERMAN TEXT
BRUNS: Als ich davon hörte, dass am Freitag die Juden erschossen werden
sollten, ging ich zu dem 2l-jährigen Burschen und sagte, dass sie sich in
meinem Dienstbereich sehr nutzbar gemacht hatten, ausserdem: der
Heereskraftfahrpark hatte 1500, dann hatte die Heeresgruppe etwa 800
Frauen eingesetzt, um Wäsche zu nahen von den Beständen, die wir in RIGA
gefunden hatten, dann nähten in der Nähe von RIGA etwa 1200 Frauen aus
mehreren Millionen gefundener Schafsfelle das, was uns dringend fehlte:
Ohrenschützer, Pelzkappen, Pelzwesten usw. Es war doch nichts vorgesehen,
weil ja doch der Krieg in RUSSLAND schon siegreich beendet war bekanntlich
im Oktober 1941. Kurz und gut, alles Frauen, die nutzbar eingesetzt waren.
Habe ich versucht, die zu retten. Habe zu diesem Burschen da,
ALTENMEYER(?), den Namen vergesse ich nicht, der kommt auch auf die
Verbrecherliste, sage ich: "Hören Sie mal, das sind doch wertvolle
Arbeitskräfte für uns!" "Wollen Herr Oberst die Juden als wertvolle
Menschen bezeichnen?" Ich sage: "Hören Sie mal, Sie müssen zuhören, was
ich sage, ich habe gesagt wertvolle Arbeitskräfte. Über ihren Menschenwert
habe ich ja gar nicht gesprochen." Sagt er: "Ja, die müssen erschossen
werden, ist Führerbefehl !" Ich sage: "FÜHRER-Befehl?" "Jawohl", und da
zeigt er mir das. SKIOTAWA(?) war es, 8 km von RIGA, zwischen SCHAULEN und
MITAU sind ja auch die 5000 Berliner Juden - plötzlich aus dem Zug raus -
erschossen worden. Das habe ich zwar nicht gesehen, aber das bei
SKIOTAWA(?); also kurz und gut, es gab dann mit dem Kerl da noch eine
Auseinandersetzung, ich habe dann telephoniert mit dem General im
Hauptquartier, mit JAKOBS und mit ABERGER (?) und mit einem Dr. SCHULTZ ,
der da war beim General der Pioniere, wegen dieser Arbeitskräfte; ich
sagte ihm noch: "Ich will mich Ihrer Auffassung anschliessen, dass das
Volk an den Völkern der Erde gesündigt hat, dann lasst sie doch nutzbare
Fron[t]arbeit leisten, stellt sie an die Strassen, lasst die Strassen
streuen, dass uns die Lastkraftwagen nicht in die Gräben schlittern." "Ja,
die Verpflegung!" Ich sage: "Das bisschen Fressen, was die kriegen, ich
will mal 2 Millionen Juden annehmen - 125 Gramm Brot kriegten sie per Tag
- wenn wir das nicht mehr aufbringen, dann wollen wir lieber heute als
morgen Schluss machen." Dann habe ich telephoniert usw., und denke doch
nicht,
/2
DISTRIBUTION
BY C.S.D.I.C. (U.K.)
M.I.19.a War Office (56 copies)
N.I.D. Admiralty ( 9 copies)
A.D.I.(K) Air Ministry (15 copies)
(29111) Wtr51755/3515 37,000 2/45
A. & E.W.Ltd GP.692 J.7303
TOP SECRET
- 2 -
BRUNS: dass das so schnell geht. Jedenfalls, Sonntag morgens höre ich,
dass sie es schon machen. Das Ghetto ist ausgeräumt worden, da ist ihnen
gesagt worden: "Ihr werdet umgelagert, nehmt die wichtigsten Sachen noch
mit." Im übrigen war das eine Erlösung für die, denn wie sie im Ghetto
behandelt wurden, das war ein Martyrium. Ich wollte es nicht glauben, da
bin ich rausgefahren und habe mir den Laden angeguckt.
? : Das Ausland hat das doch alles gewusst, nur wir Deutsche haben es
nicht gewusst.
BRUNS: Ich will Ihnen etwas sagen: es mag das eine oder andere gestimmt
haben, es ist aber auffallend, dass das Exekutionskommando, was an dem
Morgen da erschoss, also an jeder Grube sechs
Maschinenpistolenschützen--die Gruben waren 24 m lang und ungefähr 3 m
breit, mussten sich hinlegen wie die Sardinen in einer Büchse, Kopfe nach
der Mitte. Oben sechs Maschinenpistolenschützen, die dann den Genickschuss
beibrachten.
Wie ich kam, war sie schon so voll, da mussten die Lebenden also dann sich
drauflegen und dann kriegten sie den Schuss; damit nicht so viel Platz
verloren ging, mussten sie sich schön schichten.
Vorher wurden sie aber ausgeplündert an der einen Station--hier war der
Waldrand, hier drin waren die drei Gruben an dem Sonntag und hier war noch
eine 1 1/2 km lange Schlange und die rückten schrittchenweise--es war ein
Anstehen auf den Tod.
Wenn sie hier nun näher kamen, dann sahen sie, was drin vor sich ging.
Ungefähr hier unten mussten sie ihre Schmucksachen und ihre Koffer
abgeben. Das gute kam in den Koffer und das andere auf einen Haufen. Das
war zur Bekleidung von unserem notleidenden Volk--und dann, ein Stückchen
weiter, mussten sie sich ausziehen und 500 m vor dem Wald vollkommen
ausziehen, durften nur Hemd oder Schlüpfer anbehalten. Das waren alles nur
Frauen und kleine Kinder, so 2-jährige.
Dann diese zynische Bemerkungen! Wenn ich noch gesehen hätte, dass diese
Maschinenpistolenschützen, die wegen Überanstrengung alle Stunden abgelöst
wurden, es widerwillig gemacht hätten!
Nein, dreckige Bemerkungen: "Da kommt ja so eine jüdische Schönheit." Das
sehe ich noch vor meinem geistigen Auge. Ein hübsches Frauenzimmer in so
einem feuerroten Hemd.
Und von wegen Rassereinheit: in RIGA haben sie sie zuerst rumgevögelt und
dann totgeschossen, dass sie nicht mehr reden konnten.
Dann habe ich zwei Offiziere rausgeschickt, von denen einer jetzt noch
lebt, weil ich Zeugen haben wollte. Ich habe ihnen nicht gesagt, was los
ist. "Gehen Sie zum Wald von SKIOTAWA(?) raus, gucken Sie sich an, was da
los ist, und machen Sie einen Bericht darüber."
Dann habe ich zu dem Bericht noch ein Amtsschreiben dazugemacht, und habe
ihm persönlich zu JAKOBS hingebracht.
Der sagte: "Hier liegen schon zwei Beschwerden von Pionierbataillonen aus
der UKRAINE vor."
Da hatten sie sie am Rande von den grossen Erdspalten totgeschossen und
reinfallen lassen und dann hat es beinahe Pest gegeben, also jedenfaIls
pestilenzartige Düfte. Sie hatten sich eingebildet, sie könnten mit der
Kreishacke die Ränder dann abpickeln und dann würden die begraben sein.
Dieser Löss war so hart, dass zwei Pionierbataillone nachher die Ränder
absprengen mussten, da hatten sich die Bataillone darüber beschwert. Das
lag auch bei JAKOBS.
Er sagte: "Wir wussten nicht recht, wie wir es dem FÜHRER zu Gehör bringen
sollten. Machen wir auf dem Wege über CANARIS."
Der hatte diese scheussliche Aufgabe, immer so die günstige Minute
abzupassen und dem FÜHRER so leise Andeutungen zu machen.
Vierzehn Tage später war ich mit einer anderen Angelegenheit bei dem
Oberbürgermeister oder wie damals die besondere Funktionsbezeichnung war,
da zeigte mir der ALTENMEYER triumphierend: "Hier ist eine Verfügung
gekommen, dass derartige Massenerschiessungen in Zukunft nicht mehr
stattfinden dürften. Das soll vorsichtiger gemacht werden."
Ich weiss aber jetzt aus meinen letzten Warnungen, dass ich seit der Zeit
noch verschärft bespitzelt wurde.
? : Allerhand, dass Sie überhaupt noch leben.
BRUNS: Ich habe in Göttingen jeden Tag auf meine Verhaftung gewartet.
</quote>
Eugene Holman
<he...@helge.net> wrote:
> Eugene Holman wrote:
<deletions>
> > Correct. There was absolutely nothing they could have done about it.
>
> Of course, and i wish you luck to find an idiot who 's going to buy this
> crap. You contradict yourself all the time, and everytime you tell a
> different version of the same story: sometimes the jews are trapped -
> waiting helpless to be "exterminated", then in a different story
> Wallenberg hands them 100 000 false passports and they are saved.
There is no contradiction. Situations change.
The Jews in Hungary were trapped. In 1944 there was a war going on and all
of the neighboring countries were occupied by or allied with Germany and
were treating Jews far worse than they had been being treated in Hungary.
Wallenberg, a diplomat of a neutral country who had access to Auschwitz
and other camps and knew what was going on there, planned and started
issuing Swedish travel documents after Eichmann's team had started
rounding up, arresting, and deporting Hungarian Jews, primarily to
Auschwitz.
> Besides the holocau$t promoters admit that the hungarian and slovakian
> jews kept bribibing SS as well the officials of hungarian and slovak
> government.
So what?
<deletions>
> >>None has ever heard that Germans in Berlin were told *3 years in
> >>advance* that there is going to be a wall built. So your comparisson is
> >>shallow like your propaganda and lies.
> >
> >
> > Oh, come on! The East Germans knew that theirs was the only country
>
> Didn't we talk about Berlin ? The city that had a "special status" ?
> And why do you want to compare what "The East Germans knew" [according
> to you] with what the jews were *told* on BBC and other radio stations ?
Since Jews in German occupied territory were not allowed to own or listen
to radios, their information about the massacres in Riga and its mention
on international radio broadcast spread primarily by word of mouth. In
similar fashion here had also been rumors spreading in East Germany that a
wall was to be built, so much so that on June 15, 1961, two months before
the wall was built, East German leader Walter Ulbricht stated at a press
conference, "Niemand hat die Absicht, eine Mauer zu errichten!"
[http://www.chronik-der-mauer.de/index.php/textpopup/319002/].
<deletions>
> > In German-held territory, the two great Jewish revolts, the one in the
> > Warsaw ghetto in April, 1943, and the one at the Sobibor death camp, on
> > October 14, 1943, resulted in almost all of those who either participated
> > in the revolt or actually managed to escape eventually being ruthlessly
> > killed by the Nazis.
> >
>
> rubbish, most of the jews from Warsaw ghetto were deported, not killed.
Source: http://www.ushmm.org/outreach/wgupris.htm
<quote>
<deletions>
On April 19, 1943, the Warsaw ghetto uprising began after German troops
and police entered the ghetto to deport its surviving inhabitants. Seven
hundred and fifty fighters fought the heavily armed and well-trained
Germans. The ghetto fighters were able to hold out for nearly a month, but
on May 16, 1943, the revolt ended. The Germans had slowly crushed the
resistance. Of the more than 56,000 Jews captured, about 7,000 were shot,
and the remainder were deported to killing centers or concentration camps
.
</quote>
> just compare the German action in Warsaw ghetto with current US crimes
> in Afganistan or Iraq.
I do not defend US actions in Afganistan or Iraq. However there is a
difference. The US is waging war against governments and terrorist
organization that it thinks, either with or without justification, are
responsible for attacks on the United States and American interests. The
Nazis, on the other hand, were waging a war and targeting specific groups,
not only Jews, but also Gypsies and communists, for extermination, either
immediately or after having first having a contribution to the war effort
extracted from them as slave laborers.
> what takes Sobibor - it was not a "death camp",
Your claims are contradicted by the historical record.
Deportations to Sobibor:
http://holocaust-info.dk/sobibor/sobibor_deportations.htm
Discussion of the fate of the deportees:
http://holocaust-info.dk/statistics/info.htm
Human remains found after the camp was disbanded:
http://holocaust-info.dk/sobibor/imgs_sobibor/bones.htm
More human remains: http://holocaust-info.dk/sobibor/imgs_sobibor/ashes.htm
Map of the camp showing breakdown of functions:
http://holocaust-info.dk/sobibor/imgs_sobibor/map.htm
Source: http://auschwitz.dk/Sorbibor.htm
<quote>
Built in March 1942 the deathcamp Sobibor operated from May 1942 until
October 1943 for only one purpose: to kill as many Jews as quickly as
possible. It was built near the small village of Sobibòr in the eastern
sector of the Lublin district, close to a railroad line.
Sobibor's gas chambers killed an approximate total of 260,000 Jews. Most
came from Poland and from the occupied areas of the Soviet Union and
Western Europe.
Transports arrived by rail, and prisoners were taken immediately toward
the gas chambers. But the victims did not know what awaited them until the
gas was being pumped into the sealed chambers. The first transport
included 10,000 Jews from Germany and Austria, 6,000 from Theresienstadt,
and thousands from Slovakia.
<deletions>
</quote>
> and some of those
> Sobibor "revolt" "survivors" were later killed by Poles [the jews call
> the Poles "antisemites"].
Nevertheless, some of them survived to tell their story:
http://holocaust-info.dk/sobibor/imgs_sobibor/survivors.htm
http://judaism.about.com/library/2_holocaust/stories/bl_toiviblatta.htm
<quote>
<deletions>
Thomas (Toivi) Blatt is a Holocaust Survivor, Sobibor Camp Escapee, and
Author of Sobibor: The Forgotten Revolt and From the Ashes of Sobibor
(later made into a movie called "Escape from Sobibor").
<deletions>
Host Lisa_Katz says:
Welcome everyone! Thank you all for coming! Great crowd tonight.
wingnuts says:
thanks for having us
Host Lisa_Katz says:
Thomas Toivi Blatt was 12 years old when the Germans invaded Poland. In
his book, Escape from Sobibor: A Story of Survival, Toivi writes about
the chilling events prior to his deportation to the Sobibor extermination
camp. He tells of his life in Sobibor before he took part in the most
successful uprising and mass breakout in any Nazi camp during World War
II. Blatt continues by describing the five horrifying years spent eluding
both the Nazis and later anti-Semitic Polish nationalists. In chat, Toivi
will help us to understand why more Jews did not fight back harder
against the Nazis. Welcome Toivi!
<deletions>
</quote>
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Kurt Knoll
Blumentritt repeat of you Jewish counterpart in Germany.
Kurt Knoll.
=
"Eugene Holman" <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:holman-2804...@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
Kurt Knoll
explanation we have is from you guys and the other side was never allowed to
give us their explanations.
Kurt Knoll.=
"Eugene Holman" <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:holman-2804...@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
Kurt Knoll
made their living in Germany after war ends. I do not of a single Hungarian
person who would agree with you.
Kurt Knoll.
=
"Eugene Holman" <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:holman-2804...@hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
Eugene Holman
<ram...@monarch.net> wrote:
> Are you sure,
Yes.
> I know many Hungarians that did flee the eastern front and
> made their living in Germany after war ends.
How many of them were Hungarian Jews?
> I do not of a single Hungarian
> person who would agree with you.
I do.
Here is a library of documents concerning Eichmann's activities in Budapest.
Source:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eichmann-adolf/transcripts/Appeal/Appeal-Session-04-09.html
<quote>
[Attorney General continues]
I come now to the last part of my reply - I hope that I shall be able to
conclude shortly - concerning Hungary.
The "master himself," as Himmler called him, was sent to Hungary. Eichmann
said that this was just an expression, Session 98, Vol. IV, page 1698. The
instruction he was given and the duty assigned to him were to comb Hungary
and transfer its Jews to Auschwitz. He admitted this in T/37, pages 1879,
2212, 3273, 3274. He was also accompanied by all his assistants who had
already completed extermination operations in the rest of Europe. It was
necessary to act speedily because the Soviet front was approaching across
the Carpathians, and the day after the entry of the Germans, on 20 March
1944, his messengers - Krumey and Wisliceny - had a meeting with the
Jewish leaders and informed them that from now on, the Unit headed by
Eichmann would handle all Jewish Affairs. The Unit was called
"Sondereinsatzkommando Eichmann." Krumey testified - and his testimony in
these proceedings is on pages 15-16 - that he received instructions from
the Accused concerning how to run the meeting with the Jewish
representatives. What happened at the meeting we know from the report
about it, T/1155. This is a report by the Jewish participants concerning
the meeting of 20 March 1944. We also know from Freudiger's testimony,
Session 51, Vol. III, pages 934-935. As early as 31 March 1944 Eichmann
had a personal meeting with the Jewish leaders and reassured them that all
of the Germans' actions were currently intended simply to deal with the
problems arising under the emergency conditions, and after the War the
Jews would become as free as they had been previously, and the Germans
would go back to being as pleasant as they had always been. We know this
from T/1156, which is an extract from Munczi Erno's book, which was
confirmed by an affidavit by Dr. Erno Boda (T/1156). And while he was
conducting these reassuring negotiations, Eichmann sent Novak, his
transport officer, to make arrangements for transporting the Jews to
Auschwitz. He admitted this too. Session 103, Vol. IV, page 1770.
</quote>
Source:
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005211&printing=yes
<quote>
RAOUL WALLENBERG AND THE RESCUE OF JEWS IN BUDAPEST
Raoul Wallenberg led one of the most extensive and successful rescue
efforts during the Holocaust. A Swedish diplomat, Wallenberg was assigned
as first secretary to the Swedish legation in Budapest, Hungary, in July
1944. He worked with the United States War Refugee Board (WRB) and the
World Jewish Congress to protect tens of thousands of Hungarian Jews from
deportation to the Auschwitz-Birkenau extermination camp.
Hungary had been an ally of Germany, but German defeats and mounting
Hungarian losses led Hungary to seek an armistice with the western Allies.
German forces occupied Hungary on March 19, 1944, to prevent Hungary from
leaving the war and negotiating such an armistice. Shortly after the
occupation, Hungarian officials began deporting Hungarian Jews to
Auschwitz at the request of the Germans. By July 1944, the Germans had
deported nearly 440,000 Jews from Hungary. Some 200,000 Jews remained in
Budapest, and they too faced deportation.
<deletions>
Wallenberg began distributing Swedish protective passports to the Jews in
Budapest in July 1944. He established hospitals, nurseries, and a soup
kitchen, and set up more than 30 safe houses that together formed the core
of the "international ghetto" in Budapest. The international ghetto was
reserved for those Jews and their families holding protective papers from
a neutral country. In November 1944, during the death march of Hungarian
Jews from Budapest to labor camps in Austria, Wallenberg secured the
release of bearers of protective passports and those with forged papers to
save as many as possible.
Other Swedish diplomats and diplomats from other neutral countries joined
the rescue effort. Carl Lutz, a Swiss diplomat, issued certificates of
emigration so that nearly 50,000 Jews in Budapest were under Swiss
protection as potential emigrants to Palestine. Italian businessman
Giorgio Perlasca posed as a Spanish diplomat; he issued forged Spanish
visas and established safe houses, including one for Jewish children. When
Soviet forces liberated Budapest in February 1945, more than 100,000 Jews
remained, mostly because of the efforts of Wallenberg and his colleagues.
<deletions>
Wallenberg disappeared in January 1945 while on his way to meet Soviet
officials in Debrecen. Although his exact fate is not known, he is
presumed to have died, or been murdered, in a Soviet prison.
</quote>
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
<ram...@monarch.net> wrote:
> Are you sure,
Yes.
> I know many Hungarians that did flee the eastern front and
> made their living in Germany after war ends.
How many of them were Hungarian Jews?
> I do not of a single Hungarian
> person who would agree with you.
I do.
Here is a link to a collection of documents dealing with Adolf Eichmann's
activities in Budapest in 1944:
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/specialcol/instdoc/d05c02/index.html .
Kurt Knoll
holocaust industry. If the Germans were allowed to give us their version we
would be more informed. The Germans were short of resources in the war why
would they waste all their energies on the deportation of the Jews.
Kurt Knoll.
=
"Eugene Holman" <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:holman-2804...@hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
helge
>>>Heads of state and ambassadors do not, as a rule, put themselves out on
>>>limbs.
>>
>>of course they do: Stalin, Leonid Breznev, Nixon, Clinton, G.W.Bush -
>>just to name a few of them were/are all liars.
>>their "truth" is "political truth" and holocau$t propaganda falls into
>>the same category: the "truth" about Iraqs mobile labs for producing
>>chemical weapons is as true as the "truth" about German "gas vans" or
>>"extermination camps" - it is the same lie by the same liars...
>
>
> Okay. Politicians often lie for short-term gain, but it is quite a
> different thing to maintain a lie about an event that took place more than
> sixty years ago and affected tens of thousands of people.
of course that is not true: soviet officials [actually all communist
officials in Eastern Europe] kept lying about the Katyn massacre till
the early 1990s - that could be hardly called a "short-term gain".
in other words the "official version" of Katyn massacre died only with
the end of the communist rule/establishment - the same is going to
happen to the jewish holocau$t dogma/ideology - it is going to die with
the jewish controled establishment.
<snip />
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Eugene Holman
<ram...@monarch.net> wrote:
> So what does your Nizkor web site proof it is only a mouth organ for the
> holocaust industry. If the Germans were allowed to give us their version we
> would be more informed.
The records of deportations of Jews are from a German source: the archives
of the Deutsche Reichsbahn. I do not think that any reputable German
historian denies that millions of Jews and others were shipped across
Europe to various concentration camps in occupied Poland by train.
> The Germans were short of resources in the war why
> would they waste all their energies on the deportation of the Jews.
That is a good question, and it is well known that not all of the German
military leaders were enthusiastic about it.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
<he...@helge.net> wrote:
> <snip />
> >>>Heads of state and ambassadors do not, as a rule, put themselves out on
> >>>limbs.
> >>
> >>of course they do: Stalin, Leonid Breznev, Nixon, Clinton, G.W.Bush -
> >>just to name a few of them were/are all liars.
> >>their "truth" is "political truth" and holocau$t propaganda falls into
> >>the same category: the "truth" about Iraqs mobile labs for producing
> >>chemical weapons is as true as the "truth" about German "gas vans" or
> >>"extermination camps" - it is the same lie by the same liars...
> >
> >
> > Okay. Politicians often lie for short-term gain, but it is quite a
> > different thing to maintain a lie about an event that took place more than
> > sixty years ago and affected tens of thousands of people.
>
> of course that is not true: soviet officials [actually all communist
> officials in Eastern Europe] kept lying about the Katyn massacre till
> the early 1990s - that could be hardly called a "short-term gain".
What had really happened at Katyn was known right after the war. For
various reasons the Soviets, the Americans, the Poles, and the British
maintained a wall of silence about th Soviets having been the perpetrators
for purposes of *Realpolitik*.
> in other words the "official version" of Katyn massacre died only with
> the end of the communist rule/establishment - the same is going to
> happen to the jewish holocau$t dogma/ideology - it is going to die with
> the jewish controled establishment.
With Katyn nobody disputed that it had happened, but a wall of obfuscation
was constructed about the Soviet perpetrators for pragmatic reasons. On
the other hand, many people, including myself as a thirteen-year-old
schoolboy learning about it for the first time in history class, knew that
the Soviets had done it. With respect to the Rumbula massacre, which
involved almost twice a many people as Katyn and unlike it, was done in
broad daylight along a route from a centrally located ghetto to a killing
site a few hundred meters from a major railway line, you would like to say
that it didn't even happen. Nevertheless, there are eyewitnesses,
photographs, and news broadcasts and reports about it on the day that it
happened or shortly thereafter. For example, the December 5, 1941 *Herald
Tribune* carried an article referring to it that stated that it and
similar massacres of Jews taking place in the parts of the Soviet Union
occupied by the Nazis were "worse than slavery...it is no less than
systematic destruction" [reference: Walter Laqueur, 1980, *The Terrible
Secret. An Investigation into the Suppression of Information about
Hitler's 'Final Solution'. London, pg. 27].
There is an abundance of evidence that the Rumbula massacre occurred on
November 30, Rigaer Blutsonntag, and December 8, 1941, but no evidence
except your unsupported claims that it did not happen.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
<ram...@monarch.net> wrote:
> So what does your Nizkor web site proof it is only a mouth organ for the
> holocaust industry. If the Germans were allowed to give us their version we
> would be more informed.
The records of deportations of Jews are from a German source: the archives
of the Deutsche Reichsbahn. I do not think that any reputable historian,
German or not, denies that millions of Jews and other "undesirables" s
were systematically shipped, "deported", across Europe to various
concentration camps in occupied Poland and Ostland by train.
Kurt Knoll
next to victimize the German generations.
Kurt Knoll.
=
"helge" <he...@helge.net> wrote in message
news:427112eb$1...@galaxy.uncensored-news.com...
helge
> In article <427112eb$1...@galaxy.uncensored-news.com>, helge
> <he...@helge.net> wrote:
>
>
>><snip />
>>
>>>>>Heads of state and ambassadors do not, as a rule, put themselves out on
>>>>>limbs.
>>>>
>>>>of course they do: Stalin, Leonid Breznev, Nixon, Clinton, G.W.Bush -
>>>>just to name a few of them were/are all liars.
>>>>their "truth" is "political truth" and holocau$t propaganda falls into
>>>>the same category: the "truth" about Iraqs mobile labs for producing
>>>>chemical weapons is as true as the "truth" about German "gas vans" or
>>>>"extermination camps" - it is the same lie by the same liars...
>>>
>>>
>>>Okay. Politicians often lie for short-term gain, but it is quite a
>>>different thing to maintain a lie about an event that took place more than
>>>sixty years ago and affected tens of thousands of people.
>>
>>of course that is not true: soviet officials [actually all communist
>>officials in Eastern Europe] kept lying about the Katyn massacre till
>>the early 1990s - that could be hardly called a "short-term gain".
>
>
> What had really happened at Katyn was known right after the war.
exactly - Rassinier pointed as well right after the war that the
holocau$t is a lie.
> For
> various reasons the Soviets, the Americans, the Poles, and the British
> maintained a wall of silence about th Soviets having been the perpetrators
> for purposes of *Realpolitik*.
indeed, "for various reasons" the Alies/Soviets keep supporting jewish
lies known as the holocau$t.
>
>
>>in other words the "official version" of Katyn massacre died only with
>>the end of the communist rule/establishment - the same is going to
>>happen to the jewish holocau$t dogma/ideology - it is going to die with
>>the jewish controled establishment.
>
>
> With Katyn nobody disputed that it had happened,
because an independent forensic investigation report was created
and distributed - no such evidence exists for so called holocau$t.
> but a wall of obfuscation
you mena obfuscation like: "eyewitnesstestimonies", false investigations
reports ?
> was constructed about the Soviet perpetrators for pragmatic reasons.
well calling false accusations agains Germans a "pragmatic reasons" ?
> On
> the other hand, many people, including myself as a thirteen-year-old
> schoolboy learning about it for the first time in history class, knew that
> the Soviets had done it.
of course your "thirteen-year-old schoolboy" opinion was formed on
"eyewitness accounts", right ?
> With respect to the Rumbula massacre, which
> involved almost twice a many people as Katyn
rubbish. there is forensic and material evidence about the Katyn
massacre - no such evidence exists to support the alleged massacre of
25 000 jews at Riga - this is one of the real purposes of holocau$t
propaganda: TO BELITTLE REAL CRIMES AGAINST NONJEWS.
> and unlike it, was done in
> broad daylight along a route from a centrally located ghetto to a killing
> site a few hundred meters from a major railway line, you would like to say
> that it didn't even happen. Nevertheless, there are eyewitnesses,
NO eyewitnesses were/are required to prove the Katyn massacre.
> photographs,
There are photograps of exhumed graves, dead bodies, killing site at
Katyn, a report with photograps by an international team of independant
forensic medics - no such thing exists for the alleged Riga massacre.
> and news broadcasts and reports
right, there were "news broadcasts and reports" about Iraq's weapons of
mass destruction, etc.
>about it on the day that it
> happened or shortly thereafter. For example, the December 5, 1941 *Herald
> Tribune* carried an article referring to it that stated that it and
> similar massacres of Jews taking place in the parts of the Soviet Union
> occupied by the Nazis were "worse than slavery...it is no less than
> systematic destruction" [reference: Walter Laqueur, 1980, *The Terrible
> Secret. An Investigation into the Suppression of Information about
> Hitler's 'Final Solution'. London, pg. 27].
>
> There is an abundance of evidence that the Rumbula massacre occurred
in fact there is NO evidence that the Rumbula massacre occurred - all is
only the "pragmatic reasons" and "purposes of *Realpolitik*".
> on
> November 30, Rigaer Blutsonntag, and December 8, 1941, but no evidence
> except your unsupported claims that it did not happen.
>
perhaps because i do stand outside of your "pragmatic reasons" and
"purposes of *Realpolitik*"...
> Regards,
> Eugene Holman
Kurt Knoll
is says. Do not forget you holocaust is very unique like a hide and seek
game where only you chosen once have all he access to all the records and
the Germans do not. As for your German historians you are talking abut are
this the once that are approved by your holocausters after most of the
political not correct once lost their jobs. Did you ever hear of the great
histories strike in Germany ?. Go check it out you are much closer that you
think.
Kurt Knoll.
"Eugene Holman" <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:holman-2804...@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
Kurt Knoll
allowed to see all the records. Lets face it the Nuremberg Trial and many
others were only a fix or call it your game.
Kurt Knoll.
=
"Eugene Holman" <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:holman-2804...@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
Ron Jacobson
helge <he...@helge.net> wrote:
(snip some)
>because an independent forensic investigation report was created
>and distributed - no such evidence exists for so called holocau$t.
(yawn)
A very elaborate study of the mass graves in the Belzec death camp was
conducted recently by a team of Polish archaeologists, headed by Prof.
Andrzej Kola from the University of Torun in Poland, who is the author
of more than 130 papers on archaeology. The team studied the site of
the death camp, drilling 1,700 bore holes and investigating the core
samples. The results are summarized in an 84 page report (ANDRZEJ KOLA:
"BELZEC. THE NAZI CAMP FOR JEWS IN THE LIGHT OF ARCHAEOLOGICAL SOURCES.
Excavations 1997-1999". ISBN 83-905590-6-4). The study has recovered
human remains over a very large area, to a depth of up to six meters.
The minimal estimate to the volume of the graves is 21,000 cubic meters.
Also:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1673471.stm
Mass graves found at Nazi camp
Researchers have discovered seven mass graves at the Sobibor Nazi
death camp in north-eastern Poland.
The research team, which began its government-sponsored investigation
in the summer, said the graves -- the largest of which is about half
the size of a football pitch -- contain charred remains.
</quote>
RJ.
-- "your [sic] are a piece of subhuman smelly shit. and it is
your problem. I M [sic] A GERMAN." -- posted by the mad little
Nazi "helge", 22 Apr 2004 19:11:56 GMT.
Kurt Knoll
and we all know how much the poles hate the Germans. How reliable do you
think his findings are when from the outset he is not pro German at all.
here is just one example from a Polish guy I did encounter.Jus a few years
ago I have meet a polish guy who was in Auschwitz. Upon returning he told
me the ashes of the death are 3 feet high next to the sidewalk. I took a
good look at him and said Andrew do you really mean that after about 50
years in all kinds of weather the ashes of the death are still that high ?.
He looked at me with a grin on his face and left. Just recently he admitted
he was just pulling my leg. Ron if this are the kind of witnesses you have
you would say go and stick them up your ass.
Kurt Knoll.
=
"Ron Jacobson" <rj...@TheWorld.com> wrote in message
news:d4rndq$2j6$1...@pcls4.std.com...
Eugene Holman
<ram...@monarch.net> wrote:
> Really do the people you are talking about really exist
Not now. Almost all of them are dead. But they existed 60 years ago when
the war was still being fought.
> or do the know what
> is says. Do not forget you holocaust is very unique like a hide and seek
> game where only you chosen once have all he access to all the records and
> the Germans do not.
That is really strange to hear, since the Germans themselves hold many of
the records in places such as the Bundesarchiv Berlin, the Bundesarchiv
Koblenz, the Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv Freiburg, and the Berlin Document
Center. The Americans hold many important documents in the United States
Holocaust Memorial Museum Archives and the Hoover Institution on War,
Revolution, and Peace, Palo Alto, California, the Israelis have the Yad
Vashem Archives, the Russians have the Special Archive Moscow, the Poles
have Dokumenty i Materialy do Dziejow Okupacji Niemieckiej w Polsce, the
Latvians have the Latvian State Historical Arcives, the Estonians have the
Estonian State Archives. Most of these archives are opemn to legitimate
researchers, whatever their nationality. Many of them have published
selections of important documents as books, e.g. the collection of
facsimilies of documents relating to the Holocaust in Estonia, *Eesti
juutide katastroof 1941. Holocaust of Estonian Jews*, by Eugenia
Gurin-Loov, 1994. Others have made copies of collections of scanned
documents available online, such as the special collections from the
Institute of Documentation in Israel, made avilable by the Multimedia
Learning Center of the Museum of Tolerance of the Wiesenthal Institute at
http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/index.html.
> As for your German historians you are talking abut are
> this the once that are approved by your holocausters after most of the
> political not correct once lost their jobs. Did you ever hear of the great
> histories strike in Germany ?.
I have not heard of the "history strike", but I have heard of the
*Historikerstreit*, see
http://www.uncp.edu/home/rwb/Historians_Controv.html.
As I understand the *Historikerstreit*, it involves a controversy between
some conservative German historians such as Ernst Nolte who come quite
close to being Holocaust deniers without actually going off the deep end,
and scholars with a more orthodox approach to German history, such as
Jürgen Habermas. Nolte claims that the Germans had the right to łintern˛
Jews anywhere in Europe because Zionist leader and future president of
Israel Chaim Weizmann had declared a war of all Jews against Nazism in
September 1939. According to Nolte, Weizmannąs declaration of war provided
Hitler with the justification to implement the threat he had been making
for years to destroy the Jews. Nolte does not deny the Holocaust, but
rather sees it as a reaction to something even worse, Bolshevism, a
movement that found support among many Jews. He claims that more Aryans
than Jews were killed ay Auschwitz, but does not deny that hundreds of
thousands of people were killed there. He deprecates the importance of the
Wannsee Conference with respect to the implementation of the Final
Solution, but does not deny that it took place or that the Nazis were
systematically killing Jews. Nolte's viewpoint is interesting, because his
main argument is that Hitler may have had "rational" reasons for attacking
the Jews. Most scholars researchng the Holocaust come to the opposite
conclusion: the Holocaust differs from all other known genocides because
Nazi Germany had absolutely nothing to gain and much to lose, as it did,
by irrationally squandering its limited resources by fighting an
all-fronts war and rounding up, deporting, and then either enslaving or
killing Jews at the same time. For more on Nolte and his views, see
http://www.osborne-conant.org/nolt_comment.htm.
Neither Ernst Nolte nor David Irving is a knee-jerk reflex Holocaust
denier, such as Morghus or Helge in this forum. Instead, they interpret
the Holocaust in ways that suit their own agenda, which appears to be
minimalizing the evil generated by (Irving) or finding rational
justification for (Nolte) Hitler's policies towards the Jews of Europe.
> Go check it out you are much closer that you
> think.
I've checked them out. Neither is a Holocaust denier, they are both
controversial revisionists. Nolte, who holds a position at the Freie
Universität in Berlin and whose views are sometimes supported by the
*Frankfurter Algemeine Zeitung*, is regarded in most circles as a
respectable and respected historian, even if he is a Hitler apologist to
some degree. David Irving, on the other hand, has been demonstrated to be
a dishonest historian who deliberately manipulates or suppresses
information as he sees fit to further his own agenda.
Mit freundlichem Gruß,
Eugene Holman
Ben Cramer
> In article <533ce.1148375$6l.266312@pd7tw2no>, "Kurt Knoll"
> <ram...@monarch.net> wrote:
>
>> Are you sure,
>
> Yes.
>
>> I know many Hungarians that did flee the eastern front and
>> made their living in Germany after war ends.
>
> How many of them were Hungarian Jews?
>
>> I do not of a single Hungarian
>> person who would agree with you.
>
> I do.
>
> Here is a link to a collection of documents dealing with Adolf Eichmann's
> activities in Budapest in 1944:
> http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/specialcol/instdoc/d05c02/index.html .
That would be a reliable and source of unbiased opinion, would it not?
>
> Source:
> http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eichmann-adolf/transcripts/Appeal/Appeal-Session-04-09.html
and ditto
>
Ben Cramer
>>>>Heads of state and ambassadors do not, as a rule, put themselves out on
>>>>limbs.
>>>
>>>of course they do: Stalin, Leonid Breznev, Nixon, Clinton, G.W.Bush -
>>>just to name a few of them were/are all liars.
>>>their "truth" is "political truth" and holocau$t propaganda falls into
>>>the same category: the "truth" about Iraqs mobile labs for producing
>>>chemical weapons is as true as the "truth" about German "gas vans" or
>>>"extermination camps" - it is the same lie by the same liars...
>>
>>
>> Okay. Politicians often lie for short-term gain, but it is quite a
>> different thing to maintain a lie about an event that took place more
>> than
>> sixty years ago and affected tens of thousands of people.
>
> of course that is not true: soviet officials [actually all communist
> officials in Eastern Europe] kept lying about the Katyn massacre till
> the early 1990s - that could be hardly called a "short-term gain".
> in other words the "official version" of Katyn massacre died only with the
> end of the communist rule/establishment - the same is going to happen to
> the jewish holocau$t dogma/ideology - it is going to die with the jewish
> controled establishment.
>
> <snip />
>
amount of political information, previously unseen, and held to be "secret"
for 60 years, is to be released. That is, unless the hebes can get their
hands on it before we can, (in much the same manner as they refuse to let
ordinary people view the original Dead Sea Scrolls), or can persuade the
British Govt. to reclassify the material.
>
Eugene Holman
<4271cd2c$0$266$61c6...@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>,
"Ben Cramer" <bencr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Eugene Holman" <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
> news:holman-2804...@hupnet245-8.hupnet.helsinki.fi...
<deletions>
> >
> > Here is a link to a collection of documents dealing with Adolf Eichmann's
> > activities in Budapest in 1944:
> > http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/specialcol/instdoc/d05c02/index.html .
>
> That would be a reliable and source of unbiased opinion, would it not?
Criticize the message, not the messenger. Adolf Eichmann, whose job it was
to arrange transportation for Holocaust deportees, was in Budapest in 1944
and he accomplished much of what he had been assigned to do. The documents
selected for this selection simply attest to that.
> >
> > Source:
> >
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eichmann-adolf/transcripts/Appeal/Appeal-Session-04-09.html
>
> and ditto
Ditto ditto. Eichmann was abducted by Israeli intelligence from Argentina,
where he had been in hiding since the end of the war, and tried in Israel
in 1961. The complete transcripts of his trial are available on the web at
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eichmann-adolf/transcripts/. They are
transcripts with no extraneous editorializing. Once again, criticize the
message, not the messenger.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Kurt Knoll
surviving camp guards from Auschwitz and other camps how many of them were
allowed in public and express their opinions. If they would have send a
letter to a local news paper would it ever have been published ?. You can
believe whatever you want victimizing other to express their opinion about
the holocaust only point the finger at you guys. Your whole attitude and the
way you people go about it will even raise more questions again. There is no
freedom of speech in Germany especially when it comes the holocaust. Nothing
has really changed since the 3rd reich you people are only another replica
of it.
Kurt Knoll.
=
Kurt Knoll.
=
"Eugene Holman" <hol...@mappi.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:holman-2904...@c518-m3.eng.helsinki.fi...
> Jürgen Habermas. Nolte claims that the Germans had the right to ³intern²
> Jews anywhere in Europe because Zionist leader and future president of
> Israel Chaim Weizmann had declared a war of all Jews against Nazism in
> September 1939. According to Nolte, Weizmann¹s declaration of war provided