no bullshit
William Daffer
> Danny Sirtes wrote:
>
> > >OK. What single document, if exposed as a forgery, would refute the
> > >entire Holocaust?
> >
> > Seems at first sight as an intriguing question, but on a closer look
> > it's
> > absolutely rediculous !
>
> Of course it is ridiculous. My very point. You can't refute something as
> vague as 'the Holocaust' by attacking single documents -- or even a whole
> bunch of them.
>
First off, that wasn't his point. But let that pass...
Name one other historical event within the twentieth century of
similar scale that is less vague.
whd
Danny Sirtes
>entire Holocaust?
Seems at first sight as an intriguing question, but on a closer look
it's
absolutely rediculous !
It's an, admittedly quite clever, distortion of falsficationism.
Let's make an anology:
My Hypothesis: There are more than 5 billion living human-beeings on
earth.
Then you are asking: WHICH human-beeing has to be dead, so you would
give up
your hypothesis ?
Of course there is no sensefull answer to this question !
Falsification is asking for a possible SCENARIO if true would falsify
the
hypothesis.
I can give you one easily:
If we find an island in the Pacific, where all the the 6 million jews,
which we
are sure to be slaughtered by the Nazis, are living happily than
everybody
would give up the historical hypothesis of the holocaust.
So this hypothesis is falsifiable !!!
So why don't you just give up and use your cleverness for something more
honest
and humanistic than this bullshit !
David
Danny Sirtes wrote:
> >OK. What single document, if exposed as a forgery, would refute the
> >entire Holocaust?
>
> Seems at first sight as an intriguing question, but on a closer look
> it's
> absolutely rediculous !
Of course it is ridiculous. My very point. You can't refute something as
vague as 'the Holocaust' by attacking single documents -- or even a whole
bunch of them.
>
> It's an, admittedly quite clever, distortion of falsficationism.
>
Not at all. It is a demonstration of an area where falsificationism can't
apply.
> Let's make an anology:
> My Hypothesis: There are more than 5 billion living human-beeings on
> earth.
> Then you are asking: WHICH human-beeing has to be dead, so you would
> give up
> your hypothesis ?
> Of course there is no sensefull answer to this question !
>
Largely, I fear, because the question is utterly incomprehensible!
> Falsification is asking for a possible SCENARIO if true would falsify
> the
> hypothesis.
No. For a theory to be falsifiable it must generate hypotheses that can can
be fairly and rigorously tested and, if falsified, refute the entire theory.
Example: take the theory that clonazepam impairs hearing. You formulate the
null hypothesis that a group given clonazepam will be no different in
hearing from a control group given a placebo. If you find subsequently that
the clonazepam group has significantly greater hearing impairment than the
control group, you can reject the null hypothesis and 'corroborate' (to use
Popper's term) the theory that clonazepam causes impairment.
Care to devise a similar test for the Holocaust?
Thought not.
>
> I can give you one easily:
> If we find an island in the Pacific, where all the the 6 million jews,
> which we
> are sure to be slaughtered by the Nazis, are living happily than
> everybody
> would give up the historical hypothesis of the holocaust.
> So this hypothesis is falsifiable !!!
>
Let me repeat the question I asked:
>OK. What single document, if exposed as a forgery, would refute the
>entire Holocaust?
Note the word 'document'.
Sure, we can dream up hypothetical falsificatory scenarios for any of these
great systems. Christ could return to earth and say 'oops -- I was wrong,
there's no God and actually Satan rules'. We could discover secret writings
by Freud saying that everything he wrote was a load of bollocks. Ditto with
Marx.
The critical issue is whether we can devise a test to falsify the system,
not whether we can dream up some improbable scenario under which they might
be falsified. Falsifiability is a methodology for testing.
My point is that the Holocaust cannot be tested in that way. No matter how
many documents are exposed as forgeries, the exterminationists can always
claim, correctly, that such exposures have no bearing on the historicity of
the 'Holocaust'.
> So why don't you just give up and use your cleverness for something more
> honest
> and humanistic than this bullshit !
Sir, this century communism has slaughtered some 200 000 000 people, aided
and abetted by liberals and democrats. The new world order has destroyed
ancient civilizations and age-old values. It has replaced them with a grey
cosmopolitan drabness, a meaninglessness, a nothingness. It has given rise
to untold horrors on a vast scale in Africa and Asia. It is now threatening
to dragoon us all into a one-world superstate.Where once there was great art
and great music, now there is merely the thumping of jungle drums and the
scrawlings of tricksters. Where once there was vision and idealism, now
there is just the rat race to accumulate as much capital as possible.
I can think of few nobler causes than to resist these things and to aspire
once more for a new and better world.
David
John Morris
+0000, David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
>Danny Sirtes wrote:
>> >OK. What single document, if exposed as a forgery, would refute the
>> >entire Holocaust?
>> Seems at first sight as an intriguing question, but on a closer look
>> it's absolutely rediculous !
>Of course it is ridiculous. My very point. You can't refute something as
>vague as 'the Holocaust' by attacking single documents -- or even a whole
>bunch of them.
You could do as Mr. Sirtis suggests below and propose an alternate
interpretation of history. But, as I understand from you, the mission
of Revisionism is to attack single documents, testimonies, and the
like.
>> It's an, admittedly quite clever, distortion of falsficationism.
>Not at all. It is a demonstration of an area where falsificationism can't
>apply.
Holocaust history is quite falsifiable. Just produce and laternate
history.
>> Let's make an anology:
>> My Hypothesis: There are more than 5 billion living human-beeings on earth.
>> Then you are asking: WHICH human-beeing has to be dead, so you would give up
>> your hypothesis ?
>> Of course there is no sensefull answer to this question !
>Largely, I fear, because the question is utterly incomprehensible!
It is a problem with the question.
>> Falsification is asking for a possible SCENARIO if true would falsify
>> the hypothesis.
>No. For a theory to be falsifiable it must generate hypotheses that can can
>be fairly and rigorously tested and, if falsified, refute the entire theory.
And with a set of events as complex as the Holocaust, the only way to
falsify it is to come up with an alternate story that takes into
account that complexity.
But, as I understand from you, Revisionism has the more modest goal of
playing dog in the manger.
>Example: take the theory that clonazepam impairs hearing. You formulate the
>null hypothesis that a group given clonazepam will be no different in
>hearing from a control group given a placebo. If you find subsequently that
>the clonazepam group has significantly greater hearing impairment than the
>control group, you can reject the null hypothesis and 'corroborate' (to use
>Popper's term) the theory that clonazepam causes impairment.
>Care to devise a similar test for the Holocaust?
Sure. You just need to learn to think on an appropriate scale.
Between five and six million Jews disappeared between 1941 and 1945
inclusive. The evidence shows that they were shot, gassed, and starved
as the result of a the policies of the Nazi government of Germany.
>Thought not.
Wrong again.
>> I can give you one easily:
>> If we find an island in the Pacific, where all the the 6 million jews, which we
>> are sure to be slaughtered by the Nazis, are living happily than everybody
>> would give up the historical hypothesis of the holocaust.
>> So this hypothesis is falsifiable !!!
Look. There it is: the falsifiability test you wanted.
>Let me repeat the question I asked:
>>OK. What single document, if exposed as a forgery, would refute the
>>entire Holocaust?
>Note the word 'document'.
So noted.
>Sure, we can dream up hypothetical falsificatory scenarios for any of these
>great systems. Christ could return to earth and say 'oops -- I was wrong,
>there's no God and actually Satan rules'. We could discover secret writings
>by Freud saying that everything he wrote was a load of bollocks. Ditto with
>Marx.
Boy, do you have a limited set of critical tools.
>The critical issue is whether we can devise a test to falsify the system,
>not whether we can dream up some improbable scenario under which they might
>be falsified. Falsifiability is a methodology for testing.
Easy. Give us your alternative version of events.
>My point is that the Holocaust cannot be tested in that way.
Well, could you test the historicity of World War II?
> No matter how
>many documents are exposed as forgeries, the exterminationists can always
>claim, correctly, that such exposures have no bearing on the historicity of
>the 'Holocaust'.
It would be a lot more difficult to
>> So why don't you just give up and use your cleverness for something more
>> honest
>> and humanistic than this bullshit !
>Sir, this century communism has slaughtered some 200 000 000 people, aided
>and abetted by liberals and democrats.
Demonstrably false. But a good segue into some nice purple rhetoric:
> The new world order has destroyed
>ancient civilizations and age-old values. It has replaced them with a grey
>cosmopolitan drabness, a meaninglessness, a nothingness. It has given rise
>to untold horrors on a vast scale in Africa and Asia. It is now threatening
>to dragoon us all into a one-world superstate. Where once there was great art
>and great music, now there is merely the thumping of jungle drums and the
>scrawlings of tricksters. Where once there was vision and idealism, now
>there is just the rat race to accumulate as much capital as possible.
Do you rehearse this shit for the Cockney boys while driving your
Rover down to London for the meeting?
>I can think of few nobler causes than to resist these things and to aspire
>once more for a new and better world.
Except that what you aspire to is neither nobler nor better but a
descent into the barbarism whose passing fifty years ago you lament.
Surely you haven't forgotten your brave speech entitled, "I Have a
Nightmare":
Third, National Socialism was a revolutionary movement that
was based upon a wonderful dream. Forget the stories of corpses
for a moment, Mr G, and imagine a world very different from the
world we inhabit today. Imagine a world free from the wars that
have scarred the face of this tired old planet since the beginning
of time; a world with no extreme poverty, with no disease, with
no exploitation of worker by employer, no jolting financial
crises (with the misery that such crises entail) -- a world
united in a common purpose and a common vision.
http://x2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=390244357
--
John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
Charlie Chester
> Danny Sirtes wrote:
>
> > >OK. What single document, if exposed as a forgery, would refute the
> > >entire Holocaust?
> >
> > Seems at first sight as an intriguing question, but on a closer look
> > it's
> > absolutely rediculous !
>
> Of course it is ridiculous. My very point. You can't refute something as
> vague as 'the Holocaust' by attacking single documents -- or even a whole
> bunch of them.
>
> >
> > It's an, admittedly quite clever, distortion of falsficationism.
> >
>
> Not at all. It is a demonstration of an area where falsificationism can't
> apply.
>
> > Let's make an anology:
> > My Hypothesis: There are more than 5 billion living human-beeings on
> > earth.
> > Then you are asking: WHICH human-beeing has to be dead, so you would give
> up your hypothesis ?
> > Of course there is no sensefull answer to this question !
> >
>
> Largely, I fear, because the question is utterly incomprehensible!
>
> > Falsification is asking for a possible SCENARIO if true would falsify the
> hypothesis.
>
> No. For a theory to be falsifiable it must generate hypotheses that can be
> fairly and rigorously tested and, if falsified, refute the entire theory.
>
> Example: take the theory that clonazepam impairs hearing. You formulate the
> null hypothesis that a group given clonazepam will be no different in
> hearing from a control group given a placebo. If you find subsequently that
> the clonazepam group has significantly greater hearing impairment than the
> control group, you can reject the null hypothesis and 'corroborate' (to use
> Popper's term) the theory that clonazepam causes impairment.
>
> Care to devise a similar test for the Holocaust?
> Thought not.
>
You're obviously getting a little confused Dave. You're mixing up scientific
theories (which of course must always be falsifiable or they'd just be pseudo
science) & the names we give to major historical events. If no *single* test can
be devised to falsify the Holocaust it's because it isn't a single event, taking
place in a single location over one short period of time. The Holocaust is a
convenient name for a process comprising thousands of events, taking place at
thousands of locations over several years.
To avoid your mental confusion Dave you need to compare like with like. So, how
are other wide ranging historical events - e.g the fall of the Roman Empire, the
French Revolution, Stalinism, World War I, World War II, the Cold War -
falsifiable in a way which the Holocaust isn't? Please devise a single test for
each of those historical events which could "falsify" them.
> > I can give you one easily:
> > If we find an island in the Pacific, where all the the 6 million jews,
> which we
> > are sure to be slaughtered by the Nazis, are living happily than
> > everybody > would give up the historical hypothesis of the holocaust. So
> this hypothesis is falsifiable !!!
> >
>
> Let me repeat the question I asked:
>
> >OK. What single document, if exposed as a forgery, would refute the
> >entire Holocaust?
>
What single document, if exposed as a forgery would refute World War II, the
Crimean War, the Industrial Revolution, etc, etc?
> Note the word 'document'.
>
> Sure, we can dream up hypothetical falsificatory scenarios for any of these
> great systems. Christ could return to earth and say 'oops -- I was wrong,
> there's no God and actually Satan rules'. We could discover secret writings by
> Freud saying that everything he wrote was a load of bollocks. Ditto with Marx.
>
> The critical issue is whether we can devise a test to falsify the system,
> not whether we can dream up some improbable scenario under which they might
> be falsified. Falsifiability is a methodology for testing.
So devise tests to falsify all the events listed above Dave.
> My point is that the Holocaust cannot be tested in that way. No matter how
> many documents are exposed as forgeries, the exterminationists can always
> claim, correctly, that such exposures have no bearing on the historicity of
> the 'Holocaust'.
>
That's not true. If you deniers were doing the great job you always claim then
eventually you would have a preponderance of evidence. More
documents/testimonies/photos/physical proofs etc would have been falsified than
not. At that point it would be reasonable for historians to abandon the accepted
view of the Holocaust & look for an alternative explanation.Exposure of
forgeries (which the deniers have never managed) *would* have a bearing on the
historicity of the Holocaust but it would be cumulative. It's not hard to
understand Dave & it applies to all large historical events.
> > So why don't you just give up and use your cleverness for something more
> honest and humanistic than this bullshit !
>
> Sir, this century communism has slaughtered some 200 000 000 people, aided
> and abetted by liberals and democrats. The new world order has destroyed
> ancient civilizations and age-old values. It has replaced them with a grey
> cosmopolitan drabness, a meaninglessness, a nothingness. It has given rise to
> untold horrors on a vast scale in Africa and Asia. It is now threatening to
> dragoon us all into a one-world superstate.Where once there was great art and
> great music, now there is merely the thumping of jungle drums and the
> scrawlings of tricksters. Where once there was vision and idealism, now there
> is just the rat race to accumulate as much capital as possible.
>
> I can think of few nobler causes than to resist these things and to aspire
> once more for a new and better world.
>
You're slipping into Vange mode here Dave. You're not going to start quoting
Mein Kampf at us are you? "Jungle drums" eh? You sound like a 1950s moralist
predicting that rock & roll will turn all the kids into savages.
BTW what country are you living in Dave? Can't be England since that's gone from
a dreary grey uniform drabness to a wonderful cosmopolitan vibrancy.
Charlie Chester
Manchester - England
Mark Van Alstine
wrote:
> David wrote:
[snip]
> > many documents are exposed as forgeries, the exterminationists can always
> > claim, correctly, that such exposures have no bearing on the historicity of
> > the 'Holocaust'.
> >
>
> That's not true. If you deniers were doing the great job you always claim
> then eventually you would have a preponderance of evidence. More
> documents/testimonies/photos/physical proofs etc would have been falsified
> than not. At that point it would be reasonable for historians to abandon
> the accepted view of the Holocaust & look for an alternative
> explanation.Exposure of forgeries (which the deniers have never managed)
> *would* have a bearing on the historicity of the Holocaust but it would be
> cumulative. It's not hard to understand Dave & it applies to all large
> historical events.
That DavidM's ignorance of the time-honored historiographic method of
corroborative evidence is showing again should come as no suprise. It
appears to be a common intellectual failing of Holocaust deniers. That
David cannot seem to grasp that Histsorians are just as certain that the
Holocaust happened as they are about the death of Julius Ceasar and JFK is
most revealing as to his general ignorance of the methods historians
employ to determine the veracity of a historical event. An excellent
illustration of this method is given by Keith Windschuttle:
<begin quote>
...When historians accept observations about he past as evidence that an
event really happened, they are always reluctant to take one report as
proof of this. They prefer the _corroboration_ of observations from many
observers. This is what they have with the death of Julius Ceasar. Every
report they have ever seen about the Roman Empire around 44 BC, no matter
how close or how removed the source, corroborates the assassination, and
not one has yet turned up to falsify or even raise doubts about whether
the event occured. We could, if we chose, calculate the probability that
this event, out of all the possible things that might have been observed
around him at the time, did occur. For every corroboration, the odds in
favor of the hypothesis that he was killed grow geometrically. There comes
a point with histroical corroboration about such a well-recorded event
where any other scenario besides the one we have accepted becomes
impossible. Because we a re dealing with a finite world- the planet Earth
in 44 BC -we can rule out the prospect that somewhere within an infinite
number of scenarios lies one in which Caesar was not killed. Logical
possibilities based on infinity do not count in this or any historical
case. There is, in fact so much corroboration about this particular
assassination scenario that is literally impossible for there to be a
non-assassination scenario that fits everything else we know about what
was happening in Rome at the time. We know that Julius Ceasar was killed
in Rome in 44 BC just as surely as we know that John F. Kennedy was killed
in Dallas in 1963.
<end quote>
Source: Windschuttle, _The Killing of History_, p.203.
To borrow Windschuttle's analogy, there is likewise so much corroboration
of observations about the Holocaust that it too is literally impossible
for there to be a non-Holocaust "scenario" that fits everything we know
about what happened in Europe between 1933 and 1945. We know that the
Holocaust happend in the late 1930's and early 1940's as surely as we know
that the Soviet Union disintegrated and Berlin wall fell in the late
1980's and early 1990's.
[snip]
Mark
--
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and
evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between
political parties--but right through every human heart--and all
human hearts." -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
David
well, let's make a start.
> > David wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > > many documents are exposed as forgeries, the exterminationists can always
> > > claim, correctly, that such exposures have no bearing on the historicity of
> > > the 'Holocaust'.
> > >
> >
> > That's not true. If you deniers were doing the great job you always claim
> > then eventually you would have a preponderance of evidence.
Which you would dismiss as not relevant. Or which you would, correctly
but irrelevantly, say does not 'refute' the Holocaust.
> >More
> > documents/testimonies/photos/physical proofs etc would have been falsified
> > than not. At that point it would be reasonable for historians to abandon
> > the accepted view of the Holocaust & look for an alternative
> > explanation.
Or modify it. As has already been done.
> >Exposure of forgeries (which the deniers have never managed)
> > *would* have a bearing on the historicity of the Holocaust but it would be
> > cumulative. It's not hard to understand Dave & it applies to all large
> > historical events.
>
> That DavidM's ignorance of the time-honored historiographic method of
> corroborative evidence is showing again should come as no suprise.
In fact I understand it better than the historians. That's why I am less
enthusiastic about it than they. Corroboration is all very well but if
you corroborate rubbish with rubbish, you're left with rubbish.
> It
> appears to be a common intellectual failing of Holocaust deniers. That
> David cannot seem to grasp that Histsorians are just as certain that the
> Holocaust happened as they are about the death of Julius Ceasar and JFK is
> most revealing as to his general ignorance of the methods historians
> employ to determine the veracity of a historical event.
I'd say that historians have built up interpretations of the Romans, JFK
and the 'Holocaust'. I have no problem with that. The problem comes when
you want to go further and claim that you're dealing with 'facts', or to
make the slightly more sensible claim that that these things are 'beyond
REASONABLE doubt'. At that point we have to ask whether the Holocaust
story really is beyond reasonable doubt. (Or more precisely, whether
Holocaust stories really are beyond reasonable doubt.)
> An excellent
> illustration of this method is given by Keith Windschuttle:
>
> <begin quote>
>
> ...When historians accept observations about he past as evidence that an
> event really happened,
UGH! You can never know that any event 'really happened'. You can merely
construct interpretations.
> they are always reluctant to take one report as
> proof of this. They prefer the _corroboration_ of observations from many
> observers.
Fine. So if many people say they have seen UFOs, that proves that UFOs
really happened. Hmmmmmm.
> This is what they have with the death of Julius Ceasar. Every
> report they have ever seen about the Roman Empire around 44 BC, no matter
> how close or how removed the source, corroborates the assassination, and
> not one has yet turned up to falsify or even raise doubts about whether
> the event occured. We could, if we chose, calculate the probability that
> this event, out of all the possible things that might have been observed
> around him at the time, did occur. For every corroboration, the odds in
> favor of the hypothesis that he was killed grow geometrically.
I'd say for every corroboration, the interpretation becomes more
compelling. PROVIDED of course, that you're not corroborating rubbish
with rubbish.
> There comes
> a point with histroical corroboration about such a well-recorded event
> where any other scenario besides the one we have accepted becomes
> impossible.
I'd say that there comes a point when an interpretation becomes so
compelling that it is no longer psychologically possible NOT to hold it
with severe cognitive dissonance. The interpretation that I am typing on
this keyboard rather than on a baby rhino is an example.
> Because we a re dealing with a finite world- the planet Earth
> in 44 BC -we can rule out the prospect that somewhere within an infinite
> number of scenarios lies one in which Caesar was not killed. Logical
> possibilities based on infinity do not count in this or any historical
> case. There is, in fact so much corroboration about this particular
> assassination scenario that is literally impossible for there to be a
> non-assassination scenario that fits everything else we know about what
> was happening in Rome at the time. We know that Julius Ceasar was killed
> in Rome in 44 BC just as surely as we know that John F. Kennedy was killed
> in Dallas in 1963.
>
> <end quote>
>
> Source: Windschuttle, _The Killing of History_, p.203.
And we can think of many historical events where it is difficult to
avoid one particular interpretation because of the compellingness of the
evidence.
> To borrow Windschuttle's analogy, there is likewise so much corroboration
> of observations about the Holocaust that it too is literally impossible
> for there to be a non-Holocaust "scenario" that fits everything we know
> about what happened in Europe between 1933 and 1945. We know that the
> Holocaust happend in the late 1930's and early 1940's as surely as we know
> that the Soviet Union disintegrated and Berlin wall fell in the late
> 1980's and early 1990's.
I disagree. This is the argument that got rather bogged down with
Madrev. I'd say that the basic kinds of evidence that seem to be used to
prove Holocaust stories are usually flawed. Evidence from hostile
witnesses. Documents that are 'captured', could have come from anywhere,
and are locked away in archives where we can't get at them. Juggling
with figures whereby people who were 'missing' were deemed 'murdered'.
> [snip]
>
> Mark
>
> --
>
> "Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and
> evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between
> political parties--but right through every human heart--and all
> human hearts." -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
David
David
>
> In <36D22296...@cableinet.co.uk>, on Tue, 23 Feb 1999 03:37:58
> +0000, David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Danny Sirtes wrote:
>
> >> >OK. What single document, if exposed as a forgery, would refute the
> >> >entire Holocaust?
>
> >> Seems at first sight as an intriguing question, but on a closer look
> >> it's absolutely rediculous !
>
> >Of course it is ridiculous. My very point. You can't refute something as
> >vague as 'the Holocaust' by attacking single documents -- or even a whole
> >bunch of them.
>
> You could do as Mr. Sirtis suggests below and propose an alternate
> interpretation of history. But, as I understand from you, the mission
> of Revisionism is to attack single documents, testimonies, and the
> like.
I don't see your point here. To highlight problems with existing
theories or views of history is surely a valuable activity. I grant that
proposing alternative theories is also a valuable activity, but why
should failure to do the latter detract from the value of the former?
> >> It's an, admittedly quite clever, distortion of falsficationism.
>
> >Not at all. It is a demonstration of an area where falsificationism can't
> >apply.
>
> Holocaust history is quite falsifiable. Just produce and laternate
> history.
Well suggest how we can apply falsificatory methodology to it. I really
can't think of a way. For a start it is ill defined and secondly it
generates no critical hypotheses that can be examined. We can refute
particular stories but not the whole thing.
> >> Let's make an anology:
> >> My Hypothesis: There are more than 5 billion living human-beeings on earth.
> >> Then you are asking: WHICH human-beeing has to be dead, so you would give up
> >> your hypothesis ?
> >> Of course there is no sensefull answer to this question !
>
> >Largely, I fear, because the question is utterly incomprehensible!
>
> It is a problem with the question.
Agreed.
> >> Falsification is asking for a possible SCENARIO if true would falsify
> >> the hypothesis.
>
> >No. For a theory to be falsifiable it must generate hypotheses that can can
> >be fairly and rigorously tested and, if falsified, refute the entire theory.
>
> And with a set of events as complex as the Holocaust, the only way to
> falsify it is to come up with an alternate story that takes into
> account that complexity.
That wouldn't falsify the original theory. You'd have two theories but
no possibility of generating a critical hypothesis to refute one and
retain the other. Each theory could be modified to accommodate contrary
evidence.
> But, as I understand from you, Revisionism has the more modest goal of
> playing dog in the manger.
>
> >Example: take the theory that clonazepam impairs hearing. You formulate the
> >null hypothesis that a group given clonazepam will be no different in
> >hearing from a control group given a placebo. If you find subsequently that
> >the clonazepam group has significantly greater hearing impairment than the
> >control group, you can reject the null hypothesis and 'corroborate' (to use
> >Popper's term) the theory that clonazepam causes impairment.
>
> >Care to devise a similar test for the Holocaust?
>
> Sure. You just need to learn to think on an appropriate scale.
>
> Between five and six million Jews disappeared between 1941 and 1945
> inclusive. The evidence shows that they were shot, gassed, and starved
> as the result of a the policies of the Nazi government of Germany.
I'll leave the reader to draw his own conclusions from that response.
Nope. Not using that sort of test.
<snip rhetoric>
David
David
>
> David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> writes:
>
> > Danny Sirtes wrote:
> >
> > > >OK. What single document, if exposed as a forgery, would refute the
> > > >entire Holocaust?
> > >
> > > Seems at first sight as an intriguing question, but on a closer look
> > > it's
> > > absolutely rediculous !
> >
> > Of course it is ridiculous. My very point. You can't refute something as
> > vague as 'the Holocaust' by attacking single documents -- or even a whole
> > bunch of them.
> >
>
>
> Name one other historical event within the twentieth century of
> similar scale that is less vague.
>
> whd
My sitting down on this chair to type a response to your pointless post?
David
yale_f._edeiken
> Danny Sirtes wrote:
> >OK. What single document, if exposed as a forgery, would refute the
> > >entire Holocaust?
> >
> > Seems at first sight as an intriguing question, but on a closer look
> > it's
> > absolutely rediculous !
> Of course it is ridiculous. My very point. You can't refute something as
> vague as 'the Holocaust' by attacking single documents -- or even a whole
> bunch of them.
Except there is nothing "vague" about. It was mass murder and the
details are well-known.
> > It's an, admittedly quite clever, distortion of falsficationism.
> Not at all. It is a demonstration of an area where falsificationism can't
> apply.
Wrong again. Either millions of people were murdered or they were not.
> > Falsification is asking for a possible SCENARIO if true would falsify
> > the
> > hypothesis.
> No. For a theory to be falsifiable it must generate hypotheses that can can
> be fairly and rigorously tested and, if falsified, refute the entire theory.
And in the case of the Holocaust that is the murder of millions of people.
> Example: take the theory that clonazepam impairs hearing. You formulate the
> null hypothesis that a group given clonazepam will be no different in
> hearing from a control group given a placebo. If you find subsequently that
> the clonazepam group has significantly greater hearing impairment than the
> control group, you can reject the null hypothesis and 'corroborate' (to use
> Popper's term) the theory that clonazepam causes impairment.
> Care to devise a similar test for the Holocaust?
Yup.
During the Holocaust approximately 6,000,000 people were murdered
because they were Jews.
All you have to do to disprove that is show that those 6,000,000 Jews
were not murdered.
"Revisionism" has been throwing spitballs at that battleship with the
expected results.
> Thought not.
Then you thought wrong. As usual.
> > I can give you one easily:
> > If we find an island in the Pacific, where all the the 6 million jews,
> > which we
> > are sure to be slaughtered by the Nazis, are living happily than
> > everybody
> > would give up the historical hypothesis of the holocaust.
> > So this hypothesis is falsifiable !!!
> The critical issue is whether we can devise a test to falsify the system,
> not whether we can dream up some improbable scenario under which they might
> be falsified. Falsifiability is a methodology for testing.
And that has been done. Either 6,000,000 Jew were murdered or they
were not murdered.
--YFE
The Holocaust History Project is at http://www.holocaust-history.org/
The Nizkor Project is at http://www.nizkor.org/
The Einsatzgruppen page is at http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/
The Cybrary of the Holocaust is at http://www.remember.org/
William Daffer
> William Daffer wrote:
> >
> > David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> writes:
> >
> > > Danny Sirtes wrote:
> > >
> > > > >OK. What single document, if exposed as a forgery, would refute the
> > > > >entire Holocaust?
> > > >
> > > > Seems at first sight as an intriguing question, but on a closer look
> > > > it's
> > > > absolutely rediculous !
> > >
> > > Of course it is ridiculous. My very point. You can't refute something as
> > > vague as 'the Holocaust' by attacking single documents -- or even a whole
> > > bunch of them.
> > >
> >
> > First off, that wasn't his point. But let that pass...
> >
> > Name one other historical event within the twentieth century of
> > similar scale that is less vague.
> >
> > whd
>
> My sitting down on this chair to type a response to your pointless post?
>
> David
Let me make this a bit clearer for you. In what way do you find the
Holocaust 'vague'. Take your time, Davey...
whd
--
My mail address has been mangled by my mailer. Send replies to...
daf...@primenet.com
--
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
Groucho Marx.
Mark Van Alstine
[snip]
> > >Exposure of forgeries (which the deniers have never managed)
> > > *would* have a bearing on the historicity of the Holocaust but it would be
> > > cumulative. It's not hard to understand Dave & it applies to all large
> > > historical events.
> >
> > That DavidM's ignorance of the time-honored historiographic method of
> > corroborative evidence is showing again should come as no suprise.
>
> In fact I understand it better than the historians.
Oh, really? And what are DavidM's credentials as a historian? What is
DavidM grasp of the methodology historians' use? Being kind, zilch. (The
alternative is that DavidM is quite aware of the proper methodology and
knowingly flaunts it for denier propaganda purposes.) In short, as
demonstrated by his compulsive and illegitimate denial of historical
events and details of the Holocaust, DavidM continues to denmonstrate not
only his enourmous hubris ("I understand it better than the historians")
but his monumental ignorance as well.
> That's why I am less
> enthusiastic about it than they.
No. DavidM is a Nazi apologist and a Holocaust denier. That is why he is
"less enthusiastic about" the proper historical methodolgy and
intellectual integrity of real historians.
> Corroboration is all very well but if
> you corroborate rubbish with rubbish, you're left with rubbish.
IOW, DavidM, after running aground on the rocks and shoals of Holocaust
denial, casts about for somebody else to blame for his intellectual
recklessness. Some "captain" of the denier garbage scow "SS Revisionism"
he is!
> > It
> > appears to be a common intellectual failing of Holocaust deniers. That
> > David cannot seem to grasp that Histsorians are just as certain that the
> > Holocaust happened as they are about the death of Julius Ceasar and JFK is
> > most revealing as to his general ignorance of the methods historians
> > employ to determine the veracity of a historical event.
>
> I'd say that historians have built up interpretations of the Romans, JFK
> and the 'Holocaust'.
I'd say DavidM is busy making excuses for Holocaust denial propaganda.
> I have no problem with that.
Sure he does. DavidM has demonmstrated time and time again that he has a
problem with the history of the Holocaust. Namely in that he denies it.
> The problem comes when
> you want to go further and claim that you're dealing with 'facts', or to
> make the slightly more sensible claim that that these things are 'beyond
> REASONABLE doubt'.
Sounds like DavidM has a personal problem. For those not so afflicted with
the mental illness called "Revisionism," there is no question that the
veracity of the Holocaust is established "beyond a reasonable doubt."
> At that point we have to ask whether the Holocaust
> story really is beyond reasonable doubt. (Or more precisely, whether
> Holocaust stories really are beyond reasonable doubt.)
At this point we must ask whether DavidM seriously believes the bullshit
he espouses to the point that he is so emotionally imbalanced that he
cannot see the absurdity of tilting the windmills of his Holocaust denial?
> > An excellent
> > illustration of this method is given by Keith Windschuttle:
> >
> > <begin quote>
> >
> > ...When historians accept observations about he past as evidence that an
> > event really happened,
>
> UGH! You can never know that any event 'really happened'. You can merely
> construct interpretations.
Such poststructuralist pleadings are nothing more than crutches for the
intellectuslly weak. (Or in DavidM's case the intellectually weak _and_
dishonest.) An excellent example of this is illustrated by Windschuttle's
critique of Paul Carter's "spatial history" ideology. (Cf. Windschuttle,
_The Killing of History_, pp.93-120.)
> > they are always reluctant to take one report as
> > proof of this. They prefer the _corroboration_ of observations from many
> > observers.
>
> Fine. So if many people say they have seen UFOs, that proves that UFOs
> really happened. Hmmmmmm.
Nope. How many people have "seen" the same UFO's? Tens? Hundreds? Do all
the seperate instances of UFO sightings corroborate each other? What
physical and (primary) documentation exists confirming eyewitness accounts
of UFOs?
In short, zilch again. OTOH, there _are_ tens and hundreds of eyewitness
accounts that describe thousands of seperate events of the Holocaust.
There _is_ physical and (primary) documentation that exists confirming
eyewitness accounts of the Holocaust. So, obviously, DavidM's claim is
just more of his typically obtuse bullshit.
> > This is what they have with the death of Julius Ceasar. Every
> > report they have ever seen about the Roman Empire around 44 BC, no matter
> > how close or how removed the source, corroborates the assassination, and
> > not one has yet turned up to falsify or even raise doubts about whether
> > the event occured. We could, if we chose, calculate the probability that
> > this event, out of all the possible things that might have been observed
> > around him at the time, did occur. For every corroboration, the odds in
> > favor of the hypothesis that he was killed grow geometrically.
>
> I'd say for every corroboration, the interpretation becomes more
> compelling. PROVIDED of course, that you're not corroborating rubbish
> with rubbish.
And DavisM's _evidence_ that the myriad accounts about the multitude of
events that comprise the history Holocaust is "rubbish" is? Why, zilch, of
course. Suggesting otherwise just another denier strawman. Another crutch
for the irrational beliefs of the intellectually impaired.
At this point we must again ask whether DavidM seriously believes the
bullshit he espouses to the point that he is so emotionally imbalanced
that he cannot see the absurdity of tilting the windmills of his Holocaust
denial?
> > There comes
> > a point with histroical corroboration about such a well-recorded event
> > where any other scenario besides the one we have accepted becomes
> > impossible.
>
> I'd say that there comes a point when an interpretation becomes so
> compelling that it is no longer psychologically possible NOT to hold it
> with severe cognitive dissonance.
Faux issues of "interpretation" and double negatives aside, at what point
is this? Examples?
> The interpretation that I am typing on
> this keyboard rather than on a baby rhino is an example.
An example of what? Drug abuse?
> > Because we a re dealing with a finite world- the planet Earth
> > in 44 BC -we can rule out the prospect that somewhere within an infinite
> > number of scenarios lies one in which Caesar was not killed. Logical
> > possibilities based on infinity do not count in this or any historical
> > case. There is, in fact so much corroboration about this particular
> > assassination scenario that is literally impossible for there to be a
> > non-assassination scenario that fits everything else we know about what
> > was happening in Rome at the time. We know that Julius Ceasar was killed
> > in Rome in 44 BC just as surely as we know that John F. Kennedy was killed
> > in Dallas in 1963.
> >
> > <end quote>
> >
> > Source: Windschuttle, _The Killing of History_, p.203.
>
> And we can think of many historical events where it is difficult to
> avoid one particular interpretation because of the compellingness of the
> evidence.
IOW, DavidM appears to think that the "compellingness of the evidence" is
a sign that one is "corroborating rubbish with rubbish." Or that,
evidently, one may "interpret" that one is typing on "a baby rhino."
At this point it appears that we _can_ safely assume that DavidM seriously
believes the bullshit he espouses to the point that he is so emotionally
imbalanced that he cannot see the absurdity of tilting the windmills of
his Holocaust denial.
> > To borrow Windschuttle's analogy, there is likewise so much corroboration
> > of observations about the Holocaust that it too is literally impossible
> > for there to be a non-Holocaust "scenario" that fits everything we know
> > about what happened in Europe between 1933 and 1945. We know that the
> > Holocaust happend in the late 1930's and early 1940's as surely as we know
> > that the Soviet Union disintegrated and Berlin wall fell in the late
> > 1980's and early 1990's.
>
> I disagree.
Of _course_ DavidM disgrees. He is, after all, a Nazi apologist and a
Holocaust denier with an ax to grind.
> This is the argument that got rather bogged down with
> Madrev.
Nope. It is simply pointing out that DavidM is spouting poststructualist
bullshit and fantasizing that it has some alleged appliction to truly
understanding the narrative process of history so that he can deny the
Holocaust.
> I'd say that the basic kinds of evidence that seem to be used to
> prove Holocaust stories are usually flawed.
I'd say that DavidM's grasp on reality is basically flawed.
> Evidence from hostile
> witnesses. Documents that are 'captured', could have come from anywhere,
> and are locked away in archives where we can't get at them. Juggling
> with figures whereby people who were 'missing' were deemed 'murdered'.
IOW, as DavidM is unable to put forward any concrete evidence to support
his crackpot claims about the veracity of eyewitness accounts and
documentary and physical evidence about the events that comprise the
Holocaust, he must resort to spouting bullshit.
No suprises there.
Laura Finsten
>
> David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
[...]
> >Sir, this century communism has slaughtered some 200 000 000 people, aided
> >and abetted by liberals and democrats. The new world order has destroyed
> >ancient civilizations and age-old values. It has replaced them with a grey
> >cosmopolitan drabness, a meaninglessness, a nothingness. It has given rise
> >to untold horrors on a vast scale in Africa and Asia. It is now threatening
> >to dragoon us all into a one-world superstate.Where once there was great art
> >and great music, now there is merely the thumping of jungle drums and the
Rock and roll preceded the civil rights movement.
> >scrawlings of tricksters. Where once there was vision and idealism, now
> >there is just the rat race to accumulate as much capital as possible.
This is one of my all-time favourites -- a single ideology which is
responsible for the depravities of communism and capitalism both.
> >I can think of few nobler causes than to resist these things and to aspire
> >once more for a new and better world.
> >
> >David
>
> I must say, I think this is a very well-argued piece David. Wasted
> here I suspect.
Are you pining for the tender sensibilities of National Socialism, too?
LF
Laura Finsten
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Alex Vange
Mike Curtis <mi...@aimetering.com> wrote in article
<317c6795...@radula.com>...
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> oakerta jhujzb gtcqckei
Alt-revisionism is under a spamming attack because some people fear
what is being said on it. The internet is the only place that is really
free of censorship and where people can say what they think even if others
condemn their "heresy". In many countries people are simply arrested and
given long prison sentances for questioning the "holocaust".
The "holocaust" is a proven hoax. During the war the Germans locked up
the Jews for the same reason that America locked up the Japanese. At the
end of the war there was a lot of deaths in the German camps from disease
and starvation because Germany was being bombed to rubble. The stories of
gas chambers and extermination plans are not true. We are told these
stories because the Jews control the media. The real holocaust was when the
communist Jews killed millions of Christians.
Those who fear discussion of this subject are doing all they can to
stop this newsgroup. One example that would be discussed on it is that
there are no German documents that tell about any extermination plan.
Newsweek magazine May 15, 1989 says on page 64:
"the way the Nazis did things: the secrecy, the unwritten orders, the
destruction of records and the innocent-sounding code names for the
extermination of the Jews. Perhaps it was inevitable that historians would
quarrel over just what happened"
The real reason there are no records of an extermination plan is
because there was no extermination plan.
Here is part of the Leuchter Report:
"Thirty-one samples were selectively removed from the alleged gas
chambers at Kremas I, II, III, IV and V. A control sample was taken from
delousing facility #1 at Birkenau. The control sample was removed from a
delousing chamber in a location where cyanide was known to have been used
and was apparently present as blue staining. Chemical testing of the
control sample #32 showed a cyanide content of 1050 mg/kg, a very heavy
concentration. The conditions at areas from which these samples were taken
are identical with those of the control sample, cold, dark, and wet. Only
Kremas IV and V differed, in the respect that these locations had sunlight
(the buildings have been torn down) and sunlight may hasten the destruction
of uncomplexed cyanide. The cyanide combines with the iron in the mortar
and brick and becomes ferric-ferro-cyanide or prussian blue pigmentation, a
very stable iron-cyanide complex.
"The locations from which the analyzed samples were removed are set
out in Table III.
"It is notable that almost all the samples were negative and that the
few that were positive were very close to the detection level (1mg/kg); 6.7
mg/kg at Krema III; 7.9 mg/kg at Krerma I. The absense of any consequential
readings at any of the tested locations as compared to the control sample
reading 1050 mg/kg supports the evidence that these facilities were not
execution gas chambers. The small quantities detected would indicate that
at some point these buildings were deloused with Zyklon B - as were all the
buildings at all these facilities"
Alex Vange
Mike Curtis <mi...@aimetering.com> wrote in article
<7691c525...@sultanic.net>...
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Alex Vange
Mike Curtis <mi...@aimetering.com> wrote in article
<97739672...@aquabib.com>...
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DeppityBob
>> >>
>> >> [...]
>> >>
>> >> > >Sir, this century communism has slaughtered some 200 000 000 people,
>aided
>> >> > >and abetted by liberals and democrats.
I'd like to know where that 200,000,000 figure comes from. Let's face it,
that's pretty much the entire population of the United States a few years ago.
If you are counting people who have died in wars, as well as the Ukrainian
famine, the Stalinist purges, etc, then you really have to count the number of
people who died fighting in the ETO of WW2 (on both sides) as well as the 12 to
15 million just outright slaughtered by the Nazis.
When you look at from that aspect, Commies are pikers.
>he new world order has destroyed
>> >> > >ancient civilizations and age-old values. It has replaced them with
>a grey
>> >> > >cosmopolitan drabness, a meaninglessness, a nothingness.
A matter of taste. Architecture is in an age of vitality that hasn't been seen
since the French-influenced Art Deco era! And may I remind you--the
"cosmopolitan drabness" you detest is a result of the Modernists, led by the
very German Mies van der Rohe, and Bauhaus minimalism. So much for "age-old
values."
By the way, as far as "destroyed ancient civilizations"....are you blaming the
fall of Rome, Greece, Sumer, Egypt, the Mayans, the Toltecs, the Olmecs, the
Aztecs, and Samurai Japan on this imaginary "new world order"?
>It is now threatening
>> >> > >to dragoon us all into a one-world superstate.
Uh HUH. Look, the day you can get India and Pakistan to agree to be united
under the same umbrella government, I might believe you. (Same goes for Israel
and Iran. And I can just *imagine* how much France would love to be folded into
an American-led state!) Shoot, if this is true, why is Quebec trying to
*separate* from Canada?
If this is your understanding of the state of politics, it's no wonder you're
mired in Revisionism.
>Where once there was great art
>> >> > >and great music, now there is merely the thumping of jungle drums
Hate to tell ya, but I *like* those drums. Classical is fine, it's of course
far more complex (depending on the composer--for instance, I don't like Grofé),
but if I am driving, it bores me and puts me to sleep. Give me Joe Walsh any
day. And if I am cleaning house, Blondie makes working a LOT peppier more
enjoyable than Saint-Saens.
You would be surprised how many people of intelligence and taste *still* enjoy,
even prefer, rock music. (Try listening to Queen's classical-derived music
someday, and *then* tell me that rock music is only jungle drums!)
>
>> >> > >scrawlings of tricksters. Where once there was vision and idealism,
>now
>> >> > >there is just the rat race to accumulate as much capital as possible.
Right. This "new world order" has brought forth not only the excesses of
communism but also the excesses of capitalism. That's one hell of an order. (By
the way, your dismissal of modern art as "the scrawlings of tricksters" shows
only how little you understand about art.)
> > >I can think of few nobler causes than to resist these things and to
>aspire
>> >> > >once more for a new and better world.
Why don't you define this world for us, David? And tell us, where in this "new
and better world" do non-whites and their cultures fit? And how do the Jews and
their culture fit in?
Dep
"Always tell the truth. It's the easiest thing to remember."
--David Mamet
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Like short haired women? Snotty comments? Penguins?
http://members.aol.com/deppitybob/shlu/PAGEONE.html
John Morris
23:11:15 GMT, deppi...@aol.comx.y.z... (DeppityBob) wrote:
>> David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
>>> >> [...]
>>> >> > >Sir, this century communism has slaughtered some 200 000 000 people, aided
>>> >> > >and abetted by liberals and democrats.
>I'd like to know where that 200,000,000 figure comes from.
I'd like to know how liberals and democrats "aided and abetted"
Communism.
[snip]
>If this is your understanding of the state of politics, it's no wonder you're
>mired in Revisionism.
>>Where once there was great art
>>> >> > >and great music, now there is merely the thumping of jungle drums
>Hate to tell ya, but I *like* those drums. Classical is fine, it's of course
>far more complex (depending on the composer--for instance, I don't like Grofé),
>but if I am driving, it bores me and puts me to sleep. Give me Joe Walsh any
>day. And if I am cleaning house, Blondie makes working a LOT peppier more
>enjoyable than Saint-Saens.
>You would be surprised how many people of intelligence and taste *still* enjoy,
>even prefer, rock music. (Try listening to Queen's classical-derived music
>someday, and *then* tell me that rock music is only jungle drums!)
>>> >> > >scrawlings of tricksters. Where once there was vision and idealism, now
>>> >> > >there is just the rat race to accumulate as much capital as possible.
>Right. This "new world order" has brought forth not only the excesses of
>communism but also the excesses of capitalism. That's one hell of an order. (By
>the way, your dismissal of modern art as "the scrawlings of tricksters" shows
>only how little you understand about art.)
>> > >I can think of few nobler causes than to resist these things and to aspire
>>> >> > >once more for a new and better world.
>Why don't you define this world for us, David? And tell us, where in this "new
>and better world" do non-whites and their cultures fit? And how do the Jews and
>their culture fit in?
They don't.
David is one of those ideologues whose allows his entire life to be
determined by his ideology.
They don't come any more poltically correct than that.
--
John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
David
>
> > David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> [...]
> >> >>
> >> >> > >Sir, this century communism has slaughtered some 200 000 000 people,
> >aided
> >> >> > >and abetted by liberals and democrats.
>
> that's pretty much the entire population of the United States a few years ago.
> If you are counting people who have died in wars, as well as the Ukrainian
> famine, the Stalinist purges, etc, then you really have to count the number of
> people who died fighting in the ETO of WW2 (on both sides) as well as the 12 to
> 15 million just outright slaughtered by the Nazis.
>
> When you look at from that aspect, Commies are pikers.
Please take a look at:
http://www2.hawaii.edu/~rummel/COM.ART.HTM
This isn't a revisionist site either, I should add. Rummell gives his
estimate at 110,000,000 for communism. But he gives a very restrictive
definition of 'communist murder'. I found his estimate for China, for
instance, to be much lower than some other estimates that I've seen
(e.g. in the Guinness Book of Records). Rummell himself gives us a clue
as to why this is:
<begin quote>
Includes 15,700,000 killed in Chinese concentration camps.
These totals do not include the 27,000,000 people who starved to death
due to Mao's mismanagement of Chinese agriculture in the early 1960s.
This was the worst famine in human history, and it was caused entirely,
though not deliberately, by politicians.
Additionally, there is the difficult question of involuntary abortion,
of children desired by the parents, at the behest of the state or its
agents. Whether the killing of a foetus is murder, and if not, whether
it becomes murder when done against the mother's will, is the problem.
It is not clear if these abortions should be included in the democide
totals.
But one may consider that Chinese abortions are often administered by
allowing the mother to go through labor, then crushing the child's skull
with forceps as it is being born. This seems quite a bit like murder.
Additionally, there have been numerous reports of infants being murdered
following birth. Infanticide is not the official policy of Communist
China. It is, however, the actual policy, official denials not
withstanding.
The number of deaths resulting from coerced abortions and infanticide
since 1971 is estimated at over 110 million, making this perhaps the
greatest crime in all of history.
<end quote>
Similarly, I have seen much higher figures for Russia. For instance, in
his Warning to the Western World, Solzhenitsyn cites Ivan Kurganov.
Professor Ivan Alexeevich Kurganov was professor of
economy and statistics in the universities of Leningrad and Moscow. He
escaped to the United States. In his calculations he comes to an
estimation of 66 million dead, not included the millions who died of
famine. Although this is only marginally higher than Rummell's estimate,
the fact that Rummell points out that it excludes the millions
slaughtered by contrived famine.
Nobody knows the precise figures. But from the figures I've seen,
200,000,000 seems a fair estimate.
> >he new world order has destroyed
> >> >> > >ancient civilizations and age-old values. It has replaced them with
> >a grey
> >> >> > >cosmopolitan drabness, a meaninglessness, a nothingness.
>
> A matter of taste. Architecture is in an age of vitality that hasn't been seen
> since the French-influenced Art Deco era! And may I remind you--the
> "cosmopolitan drabness" you detest is a result of the Modernists, led by the
> very German Mies van der Rohe, and Bauhaus minimalism. So much for "age-old
> values."
>
> By the way, as far as "destroyed ancient civilizations"....are you blaming the
> fall of Rome, Greece, Sumer, Egypt, the Mayans, the Toltecs, the Olmecs, the
> Aztecs, and Samurai Japan on this imaginary "new world order"?
I am attributing the destruction of Tibet, the eradication of the
ancient Russia so movingly described by Solzhenitsyn, Cambodia, Vietnam,
virtually everywhere else where the murderous claw of communism
stretched, to your New World Order. More than that -- the destruction of
civilization throughout Africa brought about by impertinent colonization
followed by irresponsible and downright murderous decolonization,
leaving the continent to the tender mercies of despots and communists.
But it is not only in the Second and Third Worlds where this destruction
has taken place -- and is taking place. I grew up in a part of England
(not Essex!) where ancient towns and their cultures were being
completely obliterated by massive and uncontrolled immigration. Yet any
attempt to oppose this transformation of our country met with repression
that shocked me! People were fired from their jobs for daring to speak
out against such things -- in a country where even communist activity in
the workplace was tolerated. Marches were banned under the notorious
1936 Public Order Act, now replaced by the 1994 CJPO Act and even worse
things -- not because they caused violence but because THEIR OPPONENTS
(the communists in the Socialist Workers Party usually) came to cause
violence, specifically, of course to get the marches banned! The
National Union of Students, led at the time by a communist, adopted a
'no platform for racists' policy -- defining 'racism' in such a way that
even members of the Tory Party fell foul of it. Throughout the country,
opponents of immigration were prevented from hiring town halls and
council halls for meetings -- even though they paid for those facilities
through their taxes like everyone else.
Throughout Britain, coloured immigration came hand in hand with brutal
repression. The destruction of our way of life came hand in hand with
the destruction of the freedoms that our people once held dear.
Under the new Labour government, repression will intensify. Already, in
a report widely mentioned in the press here, they are planning to get
schoolteachers to report to the police on PRIMARY SCHOOL CHILDREN who
express 'racist' views. The police will keep dossiers on people
(presumably including these primary school children) who express
'racist' views. And, of course, any opposition to coloured immigration
is, by definition, 'racist'.
And all of this in a land where our people once felt moved to fight and
die for their freedom.
Perhaps all of this in a land where people will have to once again fight
and die for their freedom . . .
> >It is now threatening
> >> >> > >to dragoon us all into a one-world superstate.
>
> Uh HUH. Look, the day you can get India and Pakistan to agree to be united
> under the same umbrella government, I might believe you. (Same goes for Israel
> and Iran. And I can just *imagine* how much France would love to be folded into
> an American-led state!) Shoot, if this is true, why is Quebec trying to
> *separate* from Canada?
>
> If this is your understanding of the state of politics, it's no wonder you're
> mired in Revisionism.
Read A.K. Chesterton's 'New Unhappy Lords'.
I suspect that the nations of the world, including currently competing
states, will eventually become members of 'trading blocs'. Then these
blocs will follow the same pattern as the 'Common Market' (now the
European Union, in ten years' time perhaps the European Federation). And
these, in turn, will co-operate more closely. And at the pinnacle of it
all, grinning and smirking, will sit the Men Who Own the World. And just
think of the power they will wield over us then!
And where will be the external power to challenge their empire?
And where will we be able to hide?
> >Where once there was great art
> >> >> > >and great music, now there is merely the thumping of jungle drums
>
> Hate to tell ya, but I *like* those drums. Classical is fine, it's of course
> far more complex (depending on the composer--for instance, I don't like Grofé),
> but if I am driving, it bores me and puts me to sleep. Give me Joe Walsh any
> day. And if I am cleaning house, Blondie makes working a LOT peppier more
> enjoyable than Saint-Saens.
>
> You would be surprised how many people of intelligence and taste *still* enjoy,
> even prefer, rock music. (Try listening to Queen's classical-derived music
> someday, and *then* tell me that rock music is only jungle drums!)
My response is at a slightly different level from your attack, but it is
perhaps the most appropriate response. Let me quote the last words of
Penguin's translation of 'A Rebours', published in English under the
title 'Against Nature' by J-K Huysmans. You'll have to read the book to
fully appreciate the point:
'Lord, take pity on the Christian who doubts, on the unbeliever who
would fain believe, on the galley-slave of life who puts out to sea
alone, in the night, beneath a firmament no longer lit by the consoling
beacon-fires of the ancient hope!'
This little fin-de-siecle book (dating from 1884) is, for me, one of the
most moving things I have read. It foresaw the underlying tragedy of
what was to be the most horrific century of all time with painful
accuracy -- the destruction of the old certainties, and their
replacement with a desperate and ultimately futile search for new
satisfactions to try to replace them. Huysman's character, le Duc Jean
des Esseintes is 'twentieth century man', moving from one ephemeral
pleasure to the next, growing ever more frantic in his search for
something to fill the emptiness within him.
We live today in an age of ephemeral pleasures. An age where art is
judged not by its beauty or its power to move or to inspire or to
enlighten, but by how many bucks it will earn those who (mass) produce
and sell it.
Some of us look forward to the day when the power of capital over art
will be smashed, when the tricksters will be overthrown, and when our
young people can once again aspire to greatness.
> >
> >> >> > >scrawlings of tricksters. Where once there was vision and idealism,
> >now
> >> >> > >there is just the rat race to accumulate as much capital as possible.
>
> Right. This "new world order" has brought forth not only the excesses of
> communism but also the excesses of capitalism. That's one hell of an order. (By
> the way, your dismissal of modern art as "the scrawlings of tricksters" shows
> only how little you understand about art.)
Well, Dep, I have only to observe that a fairly important British
artistic prize was this year awarded to a man (of African descent, of
course) who produced a fairly childish piece of work based on . . . wait
for it . . . elephant droppings . . . to give my point some force!
Of course, I don't dismiss 'modern art'. There is still some great work,
both in the creative arts and in the performance arts. But the political
environment discourages it. Sometimes the work is so great that it soars
above, and undermines, the political environment that tries to destroy
it -- the works of Shostakovich are a spectacular example.
> > > >I can think of few nobler causes than to resist these things and to
> >aspire
> >> >> > >once more for a new and better world.
>
> Why don't you define this world for us, David?
A world of free and independent nations where land lives in harmony with
land, trading and co-operating as they wish, always aware of the dangers
of concentration of power. A world where pragmatism replaces ideology,
where the power of free capital is subordinated to the power of the
state, and the power of the state is itself contingent upon the wishes
and interests of the people. A world where the malign forces of
socialism and laissez faire capitalism are restrained by responsible
politicians acting not to serve some ideology but in the true spirit of
public service. A world where the arts and the sciences are encouraged
as never before, so that mankind can look forward with joy to a future
of beauty, happiness and greatness. A world where the sick are healed,
and when they cannot be healed where they have the option to die with
dignity and without pain or suffering. A world where wars and poverty
are eradicated by careful planning, based not upon ideology but upon
careful assessment on a global scale of the dimensions of the problem
and the steps required to solve it once and for all.
Ah . . . but I could go on and on and on . . .
It is pleasant to dream.
> And tell us, where in this "new
> and better world" do non-whites and their cultures fit? And how do the Jews and
> their culture fit in?
Let me respond to that with the slogan used by the South African
Conservative Party: 'Gee ELKE volk sy eie land' -- give EACH people its
own land.
> Dep
>
> "Always tell the truth. It's the easiest thing to remember."
> --David Mamet
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Like short haired women? Snotty comments? Penguins?
> http://members.aol.com/deppitybob/shlu/PAGEONE.html
David
David
John Morris wrote:
> In <19990227181115...@ng104.aol.com>, on 27 Feb 1999
> 23:11:15 GMT, deppi...@aol.comx.y.z... (DeppityBob) wrote:
>
> >> David <Dav...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >>> >> [...]
>
> >>> >> > >Sir, this century communism has slaughtered some 200 000 000 people, aided
> >>> >> > >and abetted by liberals and democrats.
>
> >I'd like to know where that 200,000,000 figure comes from.
>
> I'd like to know how liberals and democrats "aided and abetted"
> Communism.
>
Read Levinson's (spelling?) *Vodka-Cola*.
Then try A.K. Chesterton's *New Unhappy Lords*
>
> [snip]
>
> >If this is your understanding of the state of politics, it's no wonder you're
> >mired in Revisionism.
>
> >>Where once there was great art
> >>> >> > >and great music, now there is merely the thumping of jungle drums
>
> >Hate to tell ya, but I *like* those drums. Classical is fine, it's of course
> >far more complex (depending on the composer--for instance, I don't like Grofé),
> >but if I am driving, it bores me and puts me to sleep. Give me Joe Walsh any
> >day. And if I am cleaning house, Blondie makes working a LOT peppier more
> >enjoyable than Saint-Saens.
>
> >You would be surprised how many people of intelligence and taste *still* enjoy,
> >even prefer, rock music. (Try listening to Queen's classical-derived music
> >someday, and *then* tell me that rock music is only jungle drums!)
>
> >>> >> > >scrawlings of tricksters. Where once there was vision and idealism, now
> >>> >> > >there is just the rat race to accumulate as much capital as possible.
>
> >Right. This "new world order" has brought forth not only the excesses of
> >communism but also the excesses of capitalism. That's one hell of an order. (By
> >the way, your dismissal of modern art as "the scrawlings of tricksters" shows
> >only how little you understand about art.)
>
> >> > >I can think of few nobler causes than to resist these things and to aspire
> >>> >> > >once more for a new and better world.
>
> >Why don't you define this world for us, David? And tell us, where in this "new
> >and better world" do non-whites and their cultures fit? And how do the Jews and
> >their culture fit in?
>
> They don't.
>
Yes they do. See my answer to Dep in this thread.
>
> David is one of those ideologues whose allows his entire life to be
> determined by his ideology.
>
No. I see the main conflict in politics not as between 'left' and 'right' but between
ideologues (those who subject the national interest to that of some ideology) and
pragmatists (those who subject ideology to the national interest, picking and choosing
from various 'ideologies' as specific situations appear to them, in all honesty, to
demand). I'd support the pragmatists. Who would you support?
> They don't come any more poltically correct than that.
>
You will have your eyes opened next time you arrive in London, Mr M.
>
> --
> John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
> at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
David
DeppityBob
Dep
jott...@my-dejanews.com
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jott...@my-dejanews.com
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David
David
DeppityBob
Hmmm. Fair response. Still, when I think about it: 200 million over 80 years
compared to 12 to 15 million (not counting combatants on either side) in 7
years. I still think the Nazis make Communists look like pikers (on a per-year
basis). Not to mention that the next target of the Nazis, once the Jews were
exterminated, was going to be the Africans. And then, presumably, all blacks
everywhere... (And these *were* part of those "age-old values" you espouse.)
>>
>> By the way, as far as "destroyed ancient civilizations"....are you blaming
>the
>> fall of Rome, Greece, Sumer, Egypt, the Mayans, the Toltecs, the Olmecs,
>the
>> Aztecs, and Samurai Japan on this imaginary "new world order"?
>
>I am attributing the destruction of Tibet, the eradication of the
>ancient Russia so movingly described by Solzhenitsyn, Cambodia, Vietnam,
>virtually everywhere else where the murderous claw of communism
>stretched, to your New World Order.
The eradication of ancient Russia was not such a bad thing; it was *how* it was
replaced that was awful. Remember, the Tsarist dynasties were centuries of
oppression, pogrom, theft, polarity of class... It was a fine example of the
corruption of power and title. How else could Russian peasantry be led into
revolt, save that for so long they had labored under a massively unfair system?
>More than that -- the destruction of
>civilization throughout Africa brought about by impertinent colonization
>followed by irresponsible and downright murderous decolonization,
>leaving the continent to the tender mercies of despots and communists.
Don't blame that on any New World Order of your imagination! Blame the
colonials to begin with. Had France, Britain, Portugal, Spain, and Holland not
created satellite countries with bald land grabs, the situation and examples of
despotic rule would not have existed.
>
>But it is not only in the Second and Third Worlds where this destruction
>has taken place -- and is taking place. I grew up in a part of England
>(not Essex!) where ancient towns and their cultures were being
>completely obliterated by massive and uncontrolled immigration. Yet any
>attempt to oppose this transformation of our country met with repression
>that shocked me! People were fired from their jobs for daring to speak
>out against such things -- in a country where even communist activity in
>the workplace was tolerated.
I'm not familiar with that part of British history, but I will say this:
stability is NOT the normal state of civilization. Things change, largely
because of outside influences. Japan's concept of nobility was altered by
Korean influence; surely you are aware of the centuries of barbaric
lands-changing under the Picts, Gaels, Gauls, Celts, Teutons, Vandals,
Visigoths, Barbars, Tartars, Normans, Saxons, Angles, Rhomboids,
Circles--ooops, got carried away there. ;D
Seriously, most "stable" governments have been beset by change as long as
discontent and greed have existed.
>Throughout Britain, coloured immigration came hand in hand with brutal
>repression. The destruction of our way of life came hand in hand with
>the destruction of the freedoms that our people once held dear.
Unfortunately, it was those freedoms that allowed for immigration--ne c'est
pas?
>
>Under the new Labour government, repression will intensify. Already, in
>a report widely mentioned in the press here, they are planning to get
>schoolteachers to report to the police on PRIMARY SCHOOL CHILDREN who
>express 'racist' views. The police will keep dossiers on people
>(presumably including these primary school children) who express
>'racist' views. And, of course, any opposition to coloured immigration
>is, by definition, 'racist'.
Well, as you know, I am opposed to such radical limitations on speech. I cannot
help but feel you may be exaggerating, though. (Many here in the US make
similar claims which are simply not true--some of them being the ones who call
this "Amerika" or "Soviet Amerika," unaware of the contradiction inherent in
their ability to say such things freely.)
>
>> Uh HUH. Look, the day you can get India and Pakistan to agree to be united
>> under the same umbrella government, I might believe you. (Same goes for
>Israel
>> and Iran. And I can just *imagine* how much France would love to be folded
>into
>> an American-led state!) Shoot, if this is true, why is Quebec trying to
>> *separate* from Canada?
>>
>> If this is your understanding of the state of politics, it's no wonder
>you're
>> mired in Revisionism.
>
>Read A.K. Chesterton's 'New Unhappy Lords'.
>
>I suspect that the nations of the world, including currently competing
>states, will eventually become members of 'trading blocs'. Then these
>blocs will follow the same pattern as the 'Common Market' (now the
>European Union, in ten years' time perhaps the European Federation). And
>these, in turn, will co-operate more closely. And at the pinnacle of it
>all, grinning and smirking, will sit the Men Who Own the World. And just
>think of the power they will wield over us then!
That is his opinion. Why should it move me? I steadfastly believe he is wrong.
This world is far too diverse, and far too selfish, to allow for cooperation on
such a grand scale. (I fear the far future is not a Star Trek "Federation"
utopia, but something between Gattaca and Bladerunner--sinister and greedy,
driven by fear, competition, and profit.)
>
>This little fin-de-siecle book (dating from 1884) is, for me, one of the
>most moving things I have read. It foresaw the underlying tragedy of
>what was to be the most horrific century of all time with painful
>accuracy -- the destruction of the old certainties, and their
>replacement with a desperate and ultimately futile search for new
>satisfactions to try to replace them. Huysman's character, le Duc Jean
>des Esseintes is 'twentieth century man', moving from one ephemeral
>pleasure to the next, growing ever more frantic in his search for
>something to fill the emptiness within him.
But unlike you, I find *value* in deconstructing the old certainties. We have
discovered that the universe is far large and far more varied than dreamt of
even a hundred years ago. Shoot, three centuries ago doctors were treating
"humours" in the body, mental diseases were thought to be "demonic," and one of
the primary treatments was bloodletting! As we learn more and more about our
physical universe, so do we dispel the mystic origins of everyday effects. What
baffled doctors and scientists in those past centuries is now well-established:
bacteria, viruses, genetic flaws. Three centuries from now, what will we know
about medicine that will place the 20th century in the barbaric past?
Such scientific progress has brought many to question the nature and even the
existence of God. Yet I would not trade the comfort of spiritual certainty for
a horrible, agonizing death over something as simple as a swollen appendix! No,
I am not necessarily pleased with the replacement of spirituality and faith
with common visceral pleasure, but this is what makes us all individuals. After
all, we have moved from the hedonistic 60's, 70's, and greedy 80's to at least
a more sensible *direction*: that emptiness within has not been filled by
materialism, and people begin to look again to the spiritual. It's a social
swing that, actually, I read predicted some years ago in a book (IIRC) called
Generations.
We humans want to seek out all that we are. As we learn that viscera cannot
fill our longing for spirit, we look elsewhere. Some resort to tradition, and
others find new truths. Can you or I "prove" any of them wrong? Of course
not--faith is as individual as a thought.
You say art is not judged by its beauty or power to move or inspire. I say
there is a groundswelling of searching. Seek out the Symphony of Sorrowful
Songs, Gorecki's 3rd Symphony, for a musical response into onesuch soulful
search. It is not the only response out there.
>
>Well, Dep, I have only to observe that a fairly important British
>artistic prize was this year awarded to a man (of African descent, of
>course) who produced a fairly childish piece of work based on . . . wait
>for it . . . elephant droppings . . . to give my point some force!
Yeah, well, some years ago a significant poetry prize here was awarded to a
poem which was, in its entirety, this:
"lighght"
As one critic responded, "shshit."
Awards often go to stupid things. Why did Forrest Gump get an Oscar over The
Shawshank Redemption? Who on earth decided that Marisa Tomei needed an Oscar
for My Cousin Vinny? The literati have become a very insulated world, I agree,
and if you've been reading my discussion with Fergus (under "Sgt Pepper's
etc"), you've seen my opinion.
>
>Of course, I don't dismiss 'modern art'. There is still some great work,
>both in the creative arts and in the performance arts. But the political
>environment discourages it. Sometimes the work is so great that it soars
>above, and undermines, the political environment that tries to destroy
>it -- the works of Shostakovich are a spectacular example.
We will agree on Shostakovich. And Prokofiev. Hell, despite my assault on the
Russian Tsars, I still love 19th century Russian novels. As far as soaring
above the climate...I find that Robert Mapplethorpe's photography soared above
the reductionist/repressive atmosphere that formed around it. Some artists in
America find the culture itself oppressive, without any government influence,
and produce art with the ability to shock, stun, or simply move. Or inspire.
(What I dislike is "topical" art--like the painting of Mayor Harold Washington
in lingerie that some Chicago alderman tried to get banned. It made its point,
but fifty years from now, who cares?)
>
>A world of free and independent nations where land lives in harmony with
>land, trading and co-operating as they wish, always aware of the dangers
>of concentration of power. A world where pragmatism replaces ideology,
>where the power of free capital is subordinated to the power of the
>state, and the power of the state is itself contingent upon the wishes
>and interests of the people. A world where the malign forces of
>socialism and laissez faire capitalism are restrained by responsible
>politicians acting not to serve some ideology but in the true spirit of
>public service. A world where the arts and the sciences are encouraged
>as never before, so that mankind can look forward with joy to a future
>of beauty, happiness and greatness. A world where the sick are healed,
>and when they cannot be healed where they have the option to die with
>dignity and without pain or suffering. A world where wars and poverty
>are eradicated by careful planning, based not upon ideology but upon
>careful assessment on a global scale of the dimensions of the problem
>and the steps required to solve it once and for all.
Nice dream. Give me a call if it's ever on the verge of happening.
>
>
>> And tell us, where in this "new
>> and better world" do non-whites and their cultures fit? And how do the
>Jews and
>> their culture fit in?
>
>Let me respond to that with the slogan used by the South African
>Conservative Party: 'Gee ELKE volk sy eie land' -- give EACH people its
>own land.
>
There's the problem--that'll NEVER happen. Remember what happened when everyone
DID have their own land? The whites decided they had to have it, too, and so
they swarmed into Africa, the Americas, China, the Caribbean, the Polynesians,
Australia, the Subcontinent, and essentially overpowered anyone who denied
them, enforcing on the newly-subjugated masses European culture, European
desires, European languages, European arms, European values.
It won't happen. You try to set aside some land for some group--just as with
the Black Hills of South Dakota--and as soon as the whites see any value in it
(in that case, gold), they'll swarm in and kick out the indigenous people all
over again. And blame them for not being accommodating while they're at it.
Sorry, you have no sympathy from me on this point. I happen to like
multi-culti, and despite that, I think it's a fitting punishment to every Euro
who thought they could dominate a world in which, ultimately, they were the
minority. They should have stayed home. If they had, there wouldn't be this
problem. (A problem I happen to like, given the circumstances.)
jott...@my-dejanews.com
> I'd like to know where that 200,000,000 figure comes from. Let's face it,
> that's pretty much the entire population of the United States a few years ago.
> If you are counting people who have died in wars, as well as the Ukrainian
> famine, the Stalinist purges, etc, then you really have to count the number of
> people who died fighting in the ETO of WW2 (on both sides) as well as the 12
to
> 15 million just outright slaughtered by the Nazis.
>
> When you look at from that aspect, Commies are pikers.
>
More Stalinist revisionism. The number of documented deaths due directly to
the Stalin regime with regards to civilians and POWs far exceeds the number
of documented deaths under the Nazis. In total Stalin murdered between 10
and 13 million people depending on estimates on unrecorded deaths during the
Ukrainian famine and Kazakh tragedy. Estimates for those murdered by the
Nazis are between 8 and 12 million. However, since Tovarishch Murphy believs
the Nazis murdered more people than Stalin I issue the following challenge.
Based not upon estimates, but merely documented deaths recorded by the
regimes themselves, I will bet any amount of money that Stalin murdered more
people than Hitler. I will provide the Soviet sources and remember estimates
do not count only actual documented numbers from the internal sources of the
regime in question.
J. Otto Pohl
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jott...@my-dejanews.com
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jott...@my-dejanews.com
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jott...@my-dejanews.com
folded, brass end pieces, wooden handles. It looks like an ancient version
of the modern day swiss army knife. It has 5 blades of different functions,
and seems to have had at one time a spoon and fork. It has a metal loop on
one end as if to hang on a belt hook. The only id marks on the knife is a
small diamond stamp with tiny crosses at each corner of the diamond on the
largest blade. The initials DRS are stamped inside the diamond. Looks like
military issue. I suspect it's civil war or earlier. Was found at the
mouth of the pascagoula river.
Would appreciate any help in identifying it.
jott...@my-dejanews.com
My mom has several and has offered to give some small ones to me. Am I
nuts?? I live in Oregon where it rains and the sunshine can be in short
supply sometimes. Sharon O
jott...@my-dejanews.com
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jott...@my-dejanews.com
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