Chuck Ferree (Attn: Gord McFee)
Anthony Sabatini
cursed forgeries that plague our newsgroup. Gord's reply courtesy of Deja
News.
Gord McFee wrote:
> In <qUIA2.248$bZ4....@news.total.net>, on Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:40:57
> -0500, "Anthony Sabatini" <nizkoo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Gord McFee wrote in message <36d365c0...@news3.ibm.net>...
> > >In <36D132D0...@mediaone.net>, on Mon, 22 Feb 1999
> 05:34:56 -0500,
> > >Richard Phillips <rgph...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> >
> > >> >[deleted]
> > >
> > >> If I gather correctly, you are saying that inasmuch
> > >> as I am demanding of Ferree proof that he was a
> > >> fighter pilot, you are within your rights to demand
> > >> of me proof that I am Jewish. I replied that I don't
> > >> give a damn whether you brelieve it or not.
> > >>
> > >> the two cases are not quite parallel. As I pointed
> > >> out, Ferree does far more than merely say he was
> > >> a fighter pilot. He quite literally trumpets it, rams
> > >> it down peoples' throats, uses it as the very basis
> > >> of his self-definition. It is terribly important to ferree
> > >> that people belive it. Should it ever be disproven,
> > >> Ferree would be left standing like a completely
> > >> deflated bag of hot air; indeed he would be humiliated
> > >> to the point where I doubt if he would ever again
> > >> post to A.R.
> > >>
> > >> the fact of my being Jewish has no similar importance
> > >> to me. I mention it when I believe it to be significant
> > >> but otherwise do not trumpet it as Ferree does with his
> > >> self-proclaimed war service. The rightness or wrongness
> > >> of my postings in no way depend on it.
> > >
> > >And therein lies your double standard. Mr Ferree makes
> > >certain claims about his past. You consider them to have
> > >significance, so you demand proof of those claims.
> >
> > Not quite. The old bigot Ferree's claims *are* presented --
> > by _him_ no less! -- as having relevance here in that he
> > claims to have "been there" and witnessed much. He presents
> > himself as a witness, his tales as testimony. Of course, he
> > hasn't been able to provide a single shred of evidence for
> > the least of his claims, but that's another story.
>
> Yes, quite. Phillips introduced his Jewishness into the
> newsgroup. If Phillips demands that Chuck post documents
> to prove his background, a similar demand to Phillips is quite
> valid. You wouldn't want a double standard, now would you
> Anthony?
No, I don't, but I think you misunderstood what I said. My reply was in
response to your "You consider them to have significance, so you demand
proof of those claims." I was saying that since Chuck presents himself as a
witness to the events under discussion, his credentials *are* of
"significance". I have no problem with anyone asking for Richard's, although
I fail to see the connection between him and the Nazi holocaust.
> > >You make certain claims about yourself, in particular
> > >that you are Jewish. Since there are extremely few
> > >Jews who hold antisemitic and racist views similar to
> > >yours,
> >
> > Unsubstaniated opinion.
>
> Name me a few antisemitic Jews.
OK. Here are some Jews who have been smeared with the incredibly lame (and
boring!) "anti-Semite" (tm) and/or "self-hating Jew" epithets along with a
link to start interested researchers.
1. David Cole
http://www.codoh.com/gcgv/gc46-ORIGI.HTML
2. Israel Shahak
http://www.codoh.com/zionweb/zishahak/zishahakan01.html
3. Norman Finkelstein
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/
4. Victor Ostrovsky
http://www2.southwind.net/~amfirst/ostrovsk.htm
5. Harold Wallace Rosenthal
http://www2.southwind.net/~amfirst/rosenthl.htm
6. Benjamin H. Freedman
http://www2.southwind.net/~amfirst/freedman.htm
7. Richard Phillips
http://www.dejanews.com/[ST_rn=qs]/dnquery.xp?QRY=%7Ea+%28rgphill2@mediaone.
net)
I trust this list will suffice for now?
> > There are many who consider most Israelis, the vast
> > majority of whom are Jews, to be extremely "racist".
> > As for "anti-Semitic" (tm),
>
> Why the sneer (tm), Anthony? It is a legitimate word.
Correction: it _used to be_ a "legitimate word"; the term has since been
diluted by ridiculous overuse, it's acceptable scope obfuscated to mean
everything and nothing. Joseph Sobran explains it fairly well:
< begin quote >
It's pointless to ask what "anti-Semitic" means. It means trouble. It's an
attack signal. The practical function of the word is not to define or
distinguish things, but to conflate them indiscriminately - to equate the
soberest criticism of Israel or Jewish power with the murderous hatred of
Jews. And it works. Oh, how it works.
When Joe McCarthy accused people of being Communists, the charge was
relatively precise. You knew what he meant. The accusation could be
falsified. In fact the burden of proof was on the accuser: when McCarthy
couldn't make his loose charges stick, he was ruined. (Of course, McCarthy
was hated less for his "loose" charges than for his accurate ones. His real
offense was stigmatizing the Left.)
The opposite applies to charges of "anti-Semitism." The word has no precise
definition. An "anti-Semite" may or may not hate Jews. But he is certainly
hated by Jews. There is no penalty for making the charge loosely; the
accused has no way of falsifying the charge, since it isn't defined.
A famous example. When Abe Rosenthal accused Pat Buchanan of
"anti-Semitism," everyone on both sides understood the ground rules. There
was a chance that Buchanan would be ruined, even if the charge was baseless.
And there was no chance that Rosenthal would be ruined - even if the charge
was baseless. Such are the rules. I violate them, in a way, even by spelling
them out.
"Anti-Semitism" is therefore less a charge than a curse, an imprecation that
must be uttered formulaically. Being a "bogus predicate," to use Gilbert
Ryle's phrase, it has no real content, no functional equivalent in plain
nouns and verbs. Its power comes from the knowledge of its potential
targets, the gentiles, that powerful people are willing to back it up with
material penalties.
< end quote >
Source: http://www.sound.net/~fenix/sobran-3.html (it doesn't seem to be at
Sobran's columns archive at
http://www.uexpress.com/ups/opinion/column/js/archive.html for some strange
reason...)
> > it strikes many rather odd that there exists quite a number
> > of 'self-hating Jews' (described as such by other Jews).
>
> That doesn't make them antisemitic. Look up the word.
Bullshit. A "self-hating Jew" means a Jew who despises what he or she is;
i.e., a Jew. If you don't like Jews or 'Jewishness' then you are an
"anti-Semite" (tm). Please cut the crap, Gord.
> > >it is indeed significant that you claim to be Jewish,
> > >especially in a newsgroup where every second thread
> > >deals with Jews. Hence, a demand that you prove
> > >your claim is as legitimate as your demanding that
> > >Mr Ferree prove his claim.
> >
> > Richard has provided the names of former employers
> > and schools. Anyone who is interested may avail themselves
> > to that information. What has the racist troll Ferree provided?
> > Answer: nothing.
>
> I have asked Phillips to provide proof of his Jewishness. I
> could care less about his previous employment, which is
> irrelevant to the discussion.
OK, but I think a call to one of his former employers will likely clear up
the issue for you, n'est-ce pas?
[.sig accused of "anti-Semitism" (tm) and made to, um, 'disappear']
---
Help support Canada and its culture:
http://www.billc55.com/
Gord McFee
You fail to see the connection between a person who says he is a Jew,
yet excoriates Jews at every step of the way and has said publicly
several times, that he has no problem with the Nazis murdering millions
of Jews? I have to assume you missed those threads because the only
other possibility is that you are deliberately talking like an ass.
> > > >You make certain claims about yourself, in particular
> > > >that you are Jewish. Since there are extremely few
> > > >Jews who hold antisemitic and racist views similar to
> > > >yours,
> > >
> > > Unsubstaniated opinion.
> >
> > Name me a few antisemitic Jews.
>
> OK. Here are some Jews who have been smeared with the incredibly lame (and
> boring!) "anti-Semite" (tm) and/or "self-hating Jew" epithets along with a
> link to start interested researchers.
I know this game. First you invent your own definition of antisemitism
and then say that any Jew ever labeled an antisemite is an antisemitic
Jew. Pretty lame, even if the sources below were examples of
antisemitic Jews, which they are not.
> 1. David Cole
> http://www.codoh.com/gcgv/gc46-ORIGI.HTML
So? That makes him antisemitic? Idiotic, I grant, you, but
antisemitic?
> 2. Israel Shahak
> http://www.codoh.com/zionweb/zishahak/zishahakan01.html
Where in that long, boring tract does he say he is antisemitic?
> 3. Norman Finkelstein
> http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/
Who slam dunks Goldhagen. How does that make him an antisemitic Jew?
> 4. Victor Ostrovsky
> http://www2.southwind.net/~amfirst/ostrovsk.htm
A former Mossad operative who dumps on the Mossad. Antisemitic?
> 5. Harold Wallace Rosenthal
> http://www2.southwind.net/~amfirst/rosenthl.htm
An interview (not quoted), conducted "sometime" in the 1970s? That's
*really* good "evidence", Anthony.
> 6. Benjamin H. Freedman
> http://www2.southwind.net/~amfirst/freedman.htm
Didn't he convert to Catholicism?
> 7. Richard Phillips
>
> http://www.dejanews.com/[ST_rn=qs]/dnquery.xp?QRY=%7Ea+%28rgphill2@mediaone.
> net)
>
> I trust this list will suffice for now?
No, since you haven't done what I requested. I see no evidence that any
of those persons is an antisemitic Jew, nor even any evidence that
Phillips is a Jew. And isn't that the point behind requesting his
credentials?
> > > There are many who consider most Israelis, the vast
> > > majority of whom are Jews, to be extremely "racist".
> > > As for "anti-Semitic" (tm),
> >
> > Why the sneer (tm), Anthony? It is a legitimate word.
>
> Correction: it _used to be_ a "legitimate word"; the term has since been
> diluted by ridiculous overuse, it's acceptable scope obfuscated to mean
> everything and nothing. Joseph Sobran explains it fairly well:
>
> < begin quote >
>
> It's pointless to ask what "anti-Semitic" means. It means trouble. It's an
> attack signal. The practical function of the word is not to define or
> distinguish things, but to conflate them indiscriminately - to equate the
> soberest criticism of Israel or Jewish power with the murderous hatred of
> Jews. And it works. Oh, how it works.
>
> When Joe McCarthy accused people of being Communists, the charge was
> relatively precise. You knew what he meant. The accusation could be
> falsified. In fact the burden of proof was on the accuser: when McCarthy
> couldn't make his loose charges stick, he was ruined. (Of course, McCarthy
> was hated less for his "loose" charges than for his accurate ones. His real
> offense was stigmatizing the Left.)
>
> The opposite applies to charges of "anti-Semitism." The word has no precise
> definition. An "anti-Semite" may or may not hate Jews. But he is certainly
> hated by Jews. There is no penalty for making the charge loosely; the
> accused has no way of falsifying the charge, since it isn't defined.
Ah, so this is your game. Invent an arbitrary definition and argue from
it. Still throwing the Sobran quote around, are you? I thought your
time off would have matured you a bit, but I was obviously mistaken.
[deleted]
> > > it strikes many rather odd that there exists quite a number
> > > of 'self-hating Jews' (described as such by other Jews).
> >
> > That doesn't make them antisemitic. Look up the word.
>
> Bullshit. A "self-hating Jew" means a Jew who despises what he or she is;
> i.e., a Jew. If you don't like Jews or 'Jewishness' then you are an
> "anti-Semite" (tm). Please cut the crap, Gord.
The only crap here is yours. A Jew can hate himself; that doesn't make
him antisemitic.
> > > >it is indeed significant that you claim to be Jewish,
> > > >especially in a newsgroup where every second thread
> > > >deals with Jews. Hence, a demand that you prove
> > > >your claim is as legitimate as your demanding that
> > > >Mr Ferree prove his claim.
> > >
> > > Richard has provided the names of former employers
> > > and schools. Anyone who is interested may avail themselves
> > > to that information. What has the racist troll Ferree provided?
> > > Answer: nothing.
> >
> > I have asked Phillips to provide proof of his Jewishness. I
> > could care less about his previous employment, which is
> > irrelevant to the discussion.
>
> OK, but I think a call to one of his former employers will likely clear up
> the issue for you, n'est-ce pas?
No, I don't. I want him to do what he is pressing Chicks to do. *He*
is to provide the proof.
--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time
Visit the Holocaust History Project
http://www.holocaust-history.org
Visit the Nizkor site
http://www.nizkor.org
Daniel Keren
the "Holocaust revisionist" Anthony Sabatini
<anth...@infobahnos.com>, wrote the following about
the members of the Nizkor project for documentation
of the Holocaust:
"Well, I don't know about the Communists, but if I
have my way, the only thing these Nizkorites will
be interrogating is the prison guard as to what time
lunch is served".
<end quote from Sabatini's article>
But, do not forget: "revisionists" always claim that
they support free speech...
-Danny Keren.
Richard Phillips
Anthony Sabatini wrote:
=================================================
Phillips
There are of course many Jews who conceal the fact of being Jewish. If I am in
truth an Aryan who merely PRETENDS to be Jewish, then I most certainly would be
a rarity. This, however, is not the case.
A common way of proving Jewishness would be by a Bar Mitzvah record in some
synagogue. This I cannot do because I never WAS Bar Mitzvah. Mine was a secular
family (we had Christmas trees); indeed my father was an atheist who detested
all organised religion (including the one of our forbears).
What I think would settle the matter is the fact that in 1970 I emigrated to
Israel in the status of a Jewish immigrant. I would not have been permitted to
do this had not the Israeli authorities satisfied themselves regarding my
origins. If my word on this is sufficient, well and good. If it is not, I would
be prepared to supply you with the names, addresses, and phone numbers of three
persons who will attest to the fact of having known me there. I have already
posted this but am willing to do so again.
Furthermore, I am confident the US State Department would be happy to supply you
with the records of my departure and return.
===============================================================
===============================================
Anthony Sabatini
No, that is not what I said. Again: I fail to see the connection between
Richard's 'Jewishness' and Chuck's claim of being an eyewitness to the
events under discussion here. The latter bears direct "significance" -- your
word -- to the newsgroup while the former is trivia at best.
>I have to assume you missed those threads because the only
>other possibility is that you are deliberately talking like an ass.
I don't understand the hostile tone of your post, but for now I'm willing to
chalk it up to a bad day.
>> > > >You make certain claims about yourself, in particular
>> > > >that you are Jewish. Since there are extremely few
>> > > >Jews who hold antisemitic and racist views similar to
>> > > >yours,
>> > >
>> > > Unsubstaniated opinion.
>> >
>> > Name me a few antisemitic Jews.
>>
>> OK. Here are some Jews who have been smeared with the
>> incredibly lame (and boring!) "anti-Semite" (tm) and/or
>> "self-hating Jew" epithets along with a link to start interested
>> researchers.
>
>I know this game.
No game; I'm very serious.
>First you invent your own definition of antisemitism
Nyet. Just for fun, though, please provide a definition of "anti-Semitism"
we can both use as a common point of reference for the purpose of this
discussion.
>and then say that any Jew ever labeled an antisemite is an
>antisemitic Jew. Pretty lame, even if the sources below
>were examples of antisemitic Jews, which they are not.
They weren't necessarily provided as "exmples of [anti-Semitism]" per se. I
clearly said: "link[s] to ***start*** interested researchers." (Emphasis
added now.)
>> 1. David Cole
>> http://www.codoh.com/gcgv/gc46-ORIGI.HTML
>
>So? That makes him antisemitic? Idiotic, I grant, you, but
>antisemitic?
He 'denies' [sic] (denied?) the Nazi holocaust. Apparently that is ground
for the stupid "anti-Semite" (tm) label. Am I wrong?
>> 2. Israel Shahak
>> http://www.codoh.com/zionweb/zishahak/zishahakan01.html
>
>Where in that long, boring tract does he say he is antisemitic?
He is clearly anti-Zionist, yes? Who was it that said 'scratch and
anti-Zionist and you'll find an anti-Semite' (or something along those
lines)?
>> 3. Norman Finkelstein
>> http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/
>
>Who slam dunks Goldhagen. How does that make him an
>antisemitic Jew?
He has been called such by his opponents.
>> 4. Victor Ostrovsky
>> http://www2.southwind.net/~amfirst/ostrovsk.htm
>
>A former Mossad operative who dumps on the Mossad.
>Antisemitic?
You tell me.
>> 5. Harold Wallace Rosenthal
>> http://www2.southwind.net/~amfirst/rosenthl.htm
>
>An interview (not quoted), conducted "sometime" in the 1970s?
>That's *really* good "evidence", Anthony.
It is a good starting point, just as I said.
>> 6. Benjamin H. Freedman
>> http://www2.southwind.net/~amfirst/freedman.htm
>
>Didn't he convert to Catholicism?
Yup. Does that mean he's not a Jew? Please be clear.
>> 7. Richard Phillips
>>
>> http://www.dejanews.com/[ST_rn=qs]/dnquery.xp?QRY
>> =%7Ea+%28rgp...@mediaone.net)
>>
>> I trust this list will suffice for now?
>
>No, since you haven't done what I requested. I see no
>evidence that any of those persons is an antisemitic Jew,
I have indeed provided "evidence"; please remember that absolute proofs are
for mathematics. You are simply scoffing with a wave of your hand.
>nor even any evidence that Phillips is a Jew.
True.
I "invent[ed]" nothing; I presented my beliefs based on my experiences.
>Still throwing the Sobran quote around, are you?
Still. Tell me, does the passage of time invalidate his
description/interpretation? I notice that you hae failed to rebut what he
says. Cripes, you didn't even *try*!
>I thought your time off would have matured you a bit, but
>I was obviously mistaken.
I'll ignore this particular bit of flame-bait for now.
>[deleted]
>
>> > > it strikes many rather odd that there exists quite a
>> > > number of 'self-hating Jews' (described as such by
>> > > other Jews).
>> >
>> > That doesn't make them antisemitic. Look up the word.
>>
>> Bullshit. A "self-hating Jew" means a Jew who despises
>> what he or she is; i.e., a Jew. If you don't like Jews or
>> 'Jewishness' then you are an "anti-Semite" (tm). Please
>> cut the crap, Gord.
>
>The only crap here is yours. A Jew can hate himself; that
>doesn't make him antisemitic.
A "self-hating Jew" apparently hates himself _because_ he is a Jew. This
indicates a prejuice towards Jews, which makes his or her "anti-Semitic"
(tm). Am I wrong? If so, please explain.
>> > > >it is indeed significant that you claim to be Jewish,
>> > > >especially in a newsgroup where every second thread
>> > > >deals with Jews. Hence, a demand that you prove
>> > > >your claim is as legitimate as your demanding that
>> > > >Mr Ferree prove his claim.
>> > >
>> > > Richard has provided the names of former employers
>> > > and schools. Anyone who is interested may avail
>> > > themselves to that information. What has the racist
>> > > troll Ferree provided? Answer: nothing.
>> >
>> > I have asked Phillips to provide proof of his Jewishness.
>> > I could care less about his previous employment, which
>> > is irrelevant to the discussion.
>>
>> OK, but I think a call to one of his former employers will
>> likely clear up the issue for you, n'est-ce pas?
>
>No, I don't. I want him to do what he is pressing Chicks to
>do.
"Chicks"? Not very PC of you, Gord! ;-)
>*He* is to provide the proof.
As I said before, fine by me. Of course, you realize whether he does or
doesn't in no way helps Chuck, yes?
[.sig done away with]
DeppityBob
>
>>> > Yes, quite. Phillips introduced his Jewishness into the
>>> > newsgroup. If Phillips demands that Chuck post documents
>>> > to prove his background, a similar demand to Phillips is quite
>>> > valid. You wouldn't want a double standard, now would you
>>> > Anthony?
>>>
>>> No, I don't, but I think you misunderstood what I said. My
>>> reply was in response to your "You consider them to have
>>> significance, so you demand proof of those claims." I was
>>> saying that since Chuck presents himself as a witness to
>>> the events under discussion, his credentials *are* of
>>> "significance". I have no problem with anyone asking for
>>> Richard's, although I fail to see the connection between
>>> him and the Nazi holocaust.
>>
>>You fail to see the connection between a person who says he
>>is a Jew, yet excoriates Jews at every step of the way and has
>>said publicly several times, that he has no problem with the
>>Nazis murdering millions of Jews?
>
>No, that is not what I said. Again: I fail to see the connection between
>Richard's 'Jewishness' and Chuck's claim of being an eyewitness to the
>events under discussion here. The latter bears direct "significance" --
>your
>word -- to the newsgroup while the former is trivia at best.
To me, the issue has a very basic theme to it: Chuck uses his experience in the
war to help validate his viewpoint on Jews, Revisionism, Nazis, etc. In the
same way, Phillips uses his Jewish lineage to validate his anti-Jewish feelings
and his viewpoint on Revisionism, Nazis, etc. It's not merely referential, it's
fundamental. Thus, when Phillips demands proof that Chuck is what he represents
himself to be, it is only just that we ask Phillips for the same proof.
All the rest is window dressing.
Dep
"Always tell the truth. It's the easiest thing to remember."
--David Mamet
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Like short haired women? Snotty comments? Penguins?
http://members.aol.com/deppitybob/shlu/PAGEONE.html
Anthony Sabatini
>
>lots of snippage to get right to the point:
>
>>>> > the newsgroup. If Phillips demands that Chuck
>>>> > post documents to prove his background, a similar
>>>> > demand to Phillips is quite valid. You wouldn't
>>>> > want a double standard, now would you Anthony?
>>>>
>>>> No, I don't, but I think you misunderstood what I
>>>> said. My reply was in response to your "You consider
>>>> them to have significance, so you demand proof of
>>>> those claims." I was saying that since Chuck presents
>>>> himself as a witness to the events under discussion,
>>>> his credentials *are* of "significance". I have no
>>>> problem with anyone asking for Richard's, although
>>>> I fail to see the connection between him and the Nazi
>>>> holocaust.
>>>
>>>You fail to see the connection between a person who
>>>says he is a Jew, yet excoriates Jews at every step of
>>>the way and has said publicly several times, that he
>>>has no problem with the Nazis murdering millions of
>>>Jews?
>>
>>No, that is not what I said. Again: I fail to see the connection
>>between Richard's 'Jewishness' and Chuck's claim of being an
>>eyewitness to the events under discussion here. The latter
>>bears direct "significance" -- your word -- to the newsgroup
>>while the former is trivia at best.
>
>experience in the war to help validate his viewpoint on Jews,
>Revisionism, Nazis, etc.
Right.
>In the same way, Phillips uses his Jewish lineage to validate
>his anti-Jewish feelings and his viewpoint on Revisionism,
>Nazis, etc.
I'm not sure about this. I've never seen Richard say or allude that he
dislikes Jews _because_ he's Jewish.
>It's not merely referential, it's fundamental. Thus, when
>Phillips demands proof that Chuck is what he represents
>himself to be, it is only just that we ask Phillips for the
>same proof.
And I agreed.
>All the rest is window dressing.
Pretty much.
[.sig removed]
Richard Phillips
Richard Phillips wrote:
>
> =================================================
> Phillips (previous)
>
> There are of course many Jews who conceal the fact of being Jewish. If I am in
> truth an Aryan who merely PRETENDS to be Jewish, then I most certainly would be
> a rarity. This, however, is not the case.
>
> A common way of proving Jewishness would be by a Bar Mitzvah record in some
> synagogue. This I cannot do because I never WAS Bar Mitzvah. Mine was a secular
> family (we had Christmas trees); indeed my father was an atheist who detested
> all organised religion (including the one of our forbears).
>
> What I think would settle the matter is the fact that in 1970 I emigrated to
> Israel in the status of a Jewish immigrant. I would not have been permitted to
> do this had not the Israeli authorities satisfied themselves regarding my
> origins. If my word on this is sufficient, well and good. If it is not, I would
> be prepared to supply you with the names, addresses, and phone numbers of three
> persons who will attest to the fact of having known me there. I have already
> posted this but am willing to do so again.
>
> Furthermore, I am confident the US State Department would be happy to supply you
> with the records of my departure and return.
=============================================
Phillips
In the light of the above posting and other postings, I think I'm entitled to say I
have laid all my cards
on the table. Such being the case, I cordially invite Ferree to do likewise.
============================================
Allan Matthews
says...
>> =================================================
>> Phillips (previous)
>>
>> There are of course many Jews who conceal the fact of being Jewish. If I am in
>> truth an Aryan who merely PRETENDS to be Jewish, then I most certainly would be
>> a rarity. This, however, is not the case.
A nice story. Any proof that it's true?
>> A common way of proving Jewishness would be by a Bar Mitzvah record in some
>> synagogue. This I cannot do because I never WAS Bar Mitzvah. Mine was a secular
>> family (we had Christmas trees); indeed my father was an atheist who detested
>> all organised religion (including the one of our forbears).
A nice story. Any proof that it's true?
>> What I think would settle the matter is the fact that in 1970 I emigrated to
>> Israel in the status of a Jewish immigrant.
We have only your word that you emigrated. You are a known liar, so your
word is particularly worthless.
Where is your proof that you emigrated to Israel?
>> I would not have been permitted to
>> do this had not the Israeli authorities satisfied themselves regarding my
>> origins. If my word on this is sufficient, well and good. If it is not, I would
>> be prepared to supply you with the names, addresses, and phone numbers of three
>> persons who will attest to the fact of having known me there. I have already
>> posted this but am willing to do so again.
They could be liars like you, Phillllllllips. We need to see some sort
of documentary evidence, just like the kinds you demanded from Mr.
Ferree. Then, of course, you'd have to provide proof that these
documents actually refer to you. Anything less would not live up to the
standards you have laid down for others.
>> Furthermore, I am confident the US State Department would be happy to supply you
>> with the records of my departure and return.
Somehow I doubt it. The State Department isn't generally in the business
of supplying this information. What office at the USDS do you think we
should contact for this info?
But then, you are the same bozo who was confident that the schools you
claimed to have attended would supply me with photocopies of your
degrees, so clearly what you think about what organizations can and will
do is highly suspect.
Besides, there is as yet no way of tying you conclusively to such
information, even if it were provided.
>In the light of the above posting and other postings, I think I'm entitled to say I
>have laid all my cards on the table.
Actually, as usual, you've laid no cards on the table. It's all just a
bunch of worthless, unproven assertions from a documented liar and
hypocrite.
allan
--
================================================================
allan_m...@bigfoot.com
================================================================
"Some people just cannot be permitted to have the same rights"
---> 'Richard G. Philllips'
================================================================
http://www2.shore.net/~matthews/
================================================================
Richard Phillips
Allan Matthews wrote:
> In article <36D9F518...@mediaone.net>, rgph...@mediaone.net
> says...
> >> =================================================
> >> Phillips (previous)
> >>
> >> There are of course many Jews who conceal the fact of being Jewish. If I am in
> >> truth an Aryan who merely PRETENDS to be Jewish, then I most certainly would be
> >> a rarity. This, however, is not the case.
>
> A nice story. Any proof that it's true?
>
> >> A common way of proving Jewishness would be by a Bar Mitzvah record in some
> >> synagogue. This I cannot do because I never WAS Bar Mitzvah. Mine was a secular
> >> family (we had Christmas trees); indeed my father was an atheist who detested
> >> all organised religion (including the one of our forbears).
>
> A nice story. Any proof that it's true?
>
> >> What I think would settle the matter is the fact that in 1970 I emigrated to
> >> Israel in the status of a Jewish immigrant.
>
> We have only your word that you emigrated. You are a known liar, so your
> word is particularly worthless.
>
> Where is your proof that you emigrated to Israel?
>
> >> I would not have been permitted to
> >> do this had not the Israeli authorities satisfied themselves regarding my
> >> origins. If my word on this is sufficient, well and good. If it is not, I would
> >> be prepared to supply you with the names, addresses, and phone numbers of three
> >> persons who will attest to the fact of having known me there. I have already
> >> posted this but am willing to do so again.
>
> They could be liars like you, Phillllllllips. We need to see some sort
> of documentary evidence, just like the kinds you demanded from Mr.
> Ferree. Then, of course, you'd have to provide proof that these
> documents actually refer to you. Anything less would not live up to the
> standards you have laid down for others.
>
> >> Furthermore, I am confident the US State Department would be happy to supply you
> >> with the records of my departure and return.
>
> Somehow I doubt it. The State Department isn't generally in the business
> of supplying this information. What office at the USDS do you think we
> should contact for this info?
====================================
PHillips
Whichever office deals with matters of passports and visas. Given your proven abilities
as researchers, this should present no great problem.
==============================================
>
>
> But then, you are the same bozo who was confident that the schools you
> claimed to have attended would supply me with photocopies of your
> degrees, so clearly what you think about what organizations can and will
> do is highly suspect.
===========================================
Phillips
Have you asked either of them?
===============================
>
>
> Besides, there is as yet no way of tying you conclusively to such
> information, even if it were provided.
>
> >In the light of the above posting and other postings, I think I'm entitled to say I
> >have laid all my cards on the table.
>
> Actually, as usual, you've laid no cards on the table. It's all just a
> bunch of worthless, unproven assertions from a documented liar and
> hypocrite.
========================================
Phillips
As stated, I am prepared to give you the names and last-known whereabouts of three
persons who knew me in Israel. It is not beyond possibility that all three of them are
liars but when, in your clenched-teeth determination not to be bested, you claim such a
thing, you begin to skate on very thin ice.
===========================================
Gord McFee
The connection is that some people don't believe their claims. To be
precise, Mr Phillips has said he may not believe Chuck's claim and has
demanded proof. I and others have said that we don't believe Mr
Phillips' claim and have demanded proof. The connection is their
credibility in the newsgroup. If it is "fair" to demand proof from
Chuck, it is equally fair (or perhaps equally unfair) to demand proof
from Mr Phillips. Chuck's posts take on a whole new light if it is
shown that his claims are untrue. So do Mr Phillips' claims.
But in fact, all of this is silly, isn't it?
> >I have to assume you missed those threads because the only
> >other possibility is that you are deliberately talking like an ass.
>
> I don't understand the hostile tone of your post, but for now I'm willing to
> chalk it up to a bad day.
Talking like an ass doesn't mean you are an ass. Hostile implication
withdrawn.
> >> > > >You make certain claims about yourself, in particular
> >> > > >that you are Jewish. Since there are extremely few
> >> > > >Jews who hold antisemitic and racist views similar to
> >> > > >yours,
> >> > >
> >> > > Unsubstaniated opinion.
> >> >
> >> > Name me a few antisemitic Jews.
> >>
> >> OK. Here are some Jews who have been smeared with the
> >> incredibly lame (and boring!) "anti-Semite" (tm) and/or
> >> "self-hating Jew" epithets along with a link to start interested
> >> researchers.
> >
> >I know this game.
>
> No game; I'm very serious.
I am sure you are. You said, "smeared with the incredibly lame...". I
asked for antisemitic Jews, not Jews who had been accused by others of
being antisemitic.
> >First you invent your own definition of antisemitism
>
> Nyet. Just for fun, though, please provide a definition of "anti-Semitism"
> we can both use as a common point of reference for the purpose of this
> discussion.
The one in the dictionary. You are claiming that anyone who says
something bad about *any* Jew is antisemitic. That is not what the word
means. (I assume that is why you add the TM.) One dictionary defines
antisemitism as "prejudice or discrimination against, or intolerance of
Jews, Jewish culture". Work for you?
> >and then say that any Jew ever labeled an antisemite is an
> >antisemitic Jew. Pretty lame, even if the sources below
> >were examples of antisemitic Jews, which they are not.
>
> They weren't necessarily provided as "exmples of [anti-Semitism]" per se. I
> clearly said: "link[s] to ***start*** interested researchers." (Emphasis
> added now.)
Fair enough, but they are therefore irrelevant and you still haven't
provided an example of an antisemitic Jew, which after all was my
request.
> >> 1. David Cole
> >> http://www.codoh.com/gcgv/gc46-ORIGI.HTML
> >
> >So? That makes him antisemitic? Idiotic, I grant, you, but
> >antisemitic?
>
> He 'denies' [sic] (denied?) the Nazi holocaust. Apparently that is ground
> for the stupid "anti-Semite" (tm) label. Am I wrong?
Yes, I hope so. Denying the Holocaust doesn't automatically make one
antisemitic, although a lot of deniers are antisemitic, and that is why
they deny the Holocaust.
> >> 2. Israel Shahak
> >> http://www.codoh.com/zionweb/zishahak/zishahakan01.html
> >
> >Where in that long, boring tract does he say he is antisemitic?
>
> He is clearly anti-Zionist, yes? Who was it that said 'scratch and
> anti-Zionist and you'll find an anti-Semite' (or something along those
> lines)?
I don't know, but one can be antisemitic and still oppose Zionism.
> >> 3. Norman Finkelstein
> >> http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/
> >
> >Who slam dunks Goldhagen. How does that make him an
> >antisemitic Jew?
>
> He has been called such by his opponents.
Perhaps, but they are wrong. Criticizing a Jew doesn't make you
antisemitic. I have criticized Goldhagen extensively, and I am always
accused of being a Jewish lickspittle. Richard Green and Danny
Mittleman have criticized Goldhagen and they are both Jewish AFAIK.
> >> 4. Victor Ostrovsky
> >> http://www2.southwind.net/~amfirst/ostrovsk.htm
> >
> >A former Mossad operative who dumps on the Mossad.
> >Antisemitic?
>
> You tell me.
You used him as an example.
> >> 5. Harold Wallace Rosenthal
> >> http://www2.southwind.net/~amfirst/rosenthl.htm
> >
> >An interview (not quoted), conducted "sometime" in the 1970s?
> >That's *really* good "evidence", Anthony.
>
> It is a good starting point, just as I said.
I don't see why.
> >> 6. Benjamin H. Freedman
> >> http://www2.southwind.net/~amfirst/freedman.htm
> >
> >Didn't he convert to Catholicism?
>
> Yup. Does that mean he's not a Jew? Please be clear.
Yes. Is that clear?
> >> 7. Richard Phillips
> >>
> >> http://www.dejanews.com/[ST_rn=qs]/dnquery.xp?QRY
> >> =%7Ea+%28rgp...@mediaone.net)
> >>
> >> I trust this list will suffice for now?
> >
> >No, since you haven't done what I requested. I see no
> >evidence that any of those persons is an antisemitic Jew,
>
> I have indeed provided "evidence"; please remember that absolute proofs are
> for mathematics. You are simply scoffing with a wave of your hand.
No, I am merely asking for something and you haven't provided it.
Your beliefs are yours to do with as you wish, Anthony, but you
shouldn't present them as definitions. They are opinions.
> >Still throwing the Sobran quote around, are you?
>
> Still. Tell me, does the passage of time invalidate his
> description/interpretation? I notice that you hae failed to rebut what he
> says. Cripes, you didn't even *try*!
I have done it before and others have as well. I see no need to go
through that again.
> >I thought your time off would have matured you a bit, but
> >I was obviously mistaken.
>
> I'll ignore this particular bit of flame-bait for now.
No flamebait intended. An ellipse. I meant "matured your debating
technique".
> >[deleted]
> >
> >> > > it strikes many rather odd that there exists quite a
> >> > > number of 'self-hating Jews' (described as such by
> >> > > other Jews).
> >> >
> >> > That doesn't make them antisemitic. Look up the word.
> >>
> >> Bullshit. A "self-hating Jew" means a Jew who despises
> >> what he or she is; i.e., a Jew. If you don't like Jews or
> >> 'Jewishness' then you are an "anti-Semite" (tm). Please
> >> cut the crap, Gord.
> >
> >The only crap here is yours. A Jew can hate himself; that
> >doesn't make him antisemitic.
>
> A "self-hating Jew" apparently hates himself _because_ he is a Jew.
No, a self-hating Jew could hate himself for a million reasons.
And even if he hated himself because he was a Jew would not make him
antisemitic.
> This
> indicates a prejuice towards Jews, which makes his or her "anti-Semitic"
> (tm). Am I wrong?
Yes.
> If so, please explain.
Because hating a specific Jew does not mean you hate Jews in general
which is the basic definition of antisemitism.
> >> > > >it is indeed significant that you claim to be Jewish,
> >> > > >especially in a newsgroup where every second thread
> >> > > >deals with Jews. Hence, a demand that you prove
> >> > > >your claim is as legitimate as your demanding that
> >> > > >Mr Ferree prove his claim.
> >> > >
> >> > > Richard has provided the names of former employers
> >> > > and schools. Anyone who is interested may avail
> >> > > themselves to that information. What has the racist
> >> > > troll Ferree provided? Answer: nothing.
> >> >
> >> > I have asked Phillips to provide proof of his Jewishness.
> >> > I could care less about his previous employment, which
> >> > is irrelevant to the discussion.
> >>
> >> OK, but I think a call to one of his former employers will
> >> likely clear up the issue for you, n'est-ce pas?
> >
> >No, I don't. I want him to do what he is pressing Chicks to
> >do.
>
> "Chicks"? Not very PC of you, Gord! ;-)
Oops. I meant Chuck. Never could type worth a damn and now can't
proofread either. Comes with old age.
> >*He* is to provide the proof.
>
> As I said before, fine by me. Of course, you realize whether he does or
> doesn't in no way helps Chuck, yes?
Agreed. And vice versa.
Richard Phillips
Richard Phillips wrote:
> Allan Matthews wrote:
>
> > In article <36D9F518...@mediaone.net>, rgph...@mediaone.net
> > says...
> > >> =================================================
> > >> Phillips (previous)
> > >>
> > >> There are of course many Jews who conceal the fact of being Jewish. If I am in
> > >> truth an Aryan who merely PRETENDS to be Jewish, then I most certainly would be
> > >> a rarity. This, however, is not the case.
> >
> > A nice story. Any proof that it's true?
> >
> > >> A common way of proving Jewishness would be by a Bar Mitzvah record in some
> > >> synagogue. This I cannot do because I never WAS Bar Mitzvah. Mine was a secular
> > >> family (we had Christmas trees); indeed my father was an atheist who detested
> > >> all organised religion (including the one of our forbears).
> >
> > A nice story. Any proof that it's true?
> >
> > >> What I think would settle the matter is the fact that in 1970 I emigrated to
> > >> Israel in the status of a Jewish immigrant.
> >
> > We have only your word that you emigrated. You are a known liar, so your
> > word is particularly worthless.
===================================================
PHillips
May I ask whether you have any basis for that other than the postings of Jeffrey Brown. Your
politics is your own business. However, as an ostensibly mature adult, you really ought to
have sufficient discernment to perceive SOMETHING of Brown's character and to realize that
he is something considerably less than responsible; indeed, whether he is even entitled to
be CALLED an adult.
=======================================================
>
> >
> > Where is your proof that you emigrated to Israel?
> >
> > >> I would not have been permitted to
> > >> do this had not the Israeli authorities satisfied themselves regarding my
> > >> origins. If my word on this is sufficient, well and good. If it is not, I would
> > >> be prepared to supply you with the names, addresses, and phone numbers of three
> > >> persons who will attest to the fact of having known me there. I have already
> > >> posted this but am willing to do so again.
> >
> > They could be liars like you, Phillllllllips. We need to see some sort
> > of documentary evidence, just like the kinds you demanded from Mr.
> > Ferree. Then, of course, you'd have to provide proof that these
> > documents actually refer to you. Anything less would not live up to the
> > standards you have laid down for others.
> >
> > >> Furthermore, I am confident the US State Department would be happy to supply you
> > >> with the records of my departure and return.
> >
> > Somehow I doubt it. The State Department isn't generally in the business
> > of supplying this information. What office at the USDS do you think we
> > should contact for this info?
>
> ====================================
> PHillips
>
> Whichever office deals with matters of passports and visas. Given your proven abilities
> as researchers, this should present no great problem.
>
> ==============================================
>
> >
> >
> > But then, you are the same bozo who was confident that the schools you
> > claimed to have attended would supply me with photocopies of your
> > degrees, so clearly what you think about what organizations can and will
> > do is highly suspect.
>
> ===========================================
> Phillips
>
> Have you asked either of them?
>
> ===============================
>
> >
> >
> > Besides, there is as yet no way of tying you conclusively to such
> > information, even if it were provided.
> >
> > >In the light of the above posting and other postings, I think I'm entitled to say I
> > >have laid all my cards on the table.
> >
Allan Matthews
says...
>> Allan Matthews wrote:
>> > We have only your word that you emigrated. You are a known liar, so your
>> > word is particularly worthless.
>May I ask whether you have any basis for that other than the postings of Jeffrey Brown.
Your own words clearly mark you as a liar. A number of people, myself
included, have pointed out your lies.
>Your politics is your own business.
Not according to neo-Nazi filth like you. Have you forgotten that your
heroes in the 3rd Reich made certain political viewpoints captial
offenses?
>However, as an ostensibly mature adult,
As you don't fall into this category you are in no position to comment on
those of us who do, Phillllllllllips.
>you really ought to
>have sufficient discernment to perceive SOMETHING of Brown's character and to realize that
>he is something considerably less than responsible; indeed, whether he is even entitled to
>be CALLED an adult.
And your evidence that Mr. Brown is of bad character is what exactly?
Remember that evidence-free accusations made by his detractors are
worthless.
"Go home and worry about it."
Chuck Ferree
deppi...@aol.comx.y.z... (DeppityBob) wrote:
>lots of snippage to get right to the point:
>
>>
>>>> > Yes, quite. Phillips introduced his Jewishness into the
>>>> > newsgroup. If Phillips demands that Chuck post documents
>>>> > to prove his background, a similar demand to Phillips is quite
>>>> > valid. You wouldn't want a double standard, now would you
>>>> > Anthony?
>>>>
>>>> No, I don't, but I think you misunderstood what I said. My
>>>> reply was in response to your "You consider them to have
>>>> significance, so you demand proof of those claims." I was
>>>> saying that since Chuck presents himself as a witness to
>>>> the events under discussion, his credentials *are* of
>>>> "significance". I have no problem with anyone asking for
>>>> Richard's, although I fail to see the connection between
>>>> him and the Nazi holocaust.
>>>
>>>You fail to see the connection between a person who says he
>>>is a Jew, yet excoriates Jews at every step of the way and has
>>>said publicly several times, that he has no problem with the
>>>Nazis murdering millions of Jews?
>>
>>No, that is not what I said. Again: I fail to see the connection between
>>Richard's 'Jewishness' and Chuck's claim of being an eyewitness to the
>>events under discussion here. The latter bears direct "significance" --
>>your
>>word -- to the newsgroup while the former is trivia at best.
>
>To me, the issue has a very basic theme to it: Chuck uses his experience in the
>war to help validate his viewpoint on Jews, Revisionism, Nazis, etc.
CF:>When I started posting to AR about 5-6 years ago, it never entered my
mind that the experiences I had in the military, flying Fighter planes,
and later being assigned to SHAEF as a airplane driver for High Ranking
Brass, flying them to various Nazi concentration camps, being "privileged"
if one thinks of it that way, to see first hand the results of the Nazi
policy of dragging fellow Germans, and other prisoners from all over
Europe, down to the lowest level possible, including slow death from
various means, quick death from various means, including poison gas, a
bullet to the neck, and so on. Using Jews and others as slave labor,
breaking up families, cruelties most people can't even imagine. Even
personally seeing these scenes from hell, smelling the sickening odors of
the camps, and they all smelled so awful, the nauseating air seemed to
permeate our unforms, right down to our skin, the scenes are impossible to
describe.
Viewing the Holocaust documented films and photos, doesn't even come close
to walking among the corpses, witnessing satanic abominations, perperated
by evil people...The German Nazis, the cruel and evil SS, bestial men, and
women who took pleasure in tormenting their prisoners. These experiences
stayed hidden in my mind for more than fifty years. Now I read dozens of
books about WW-II and the Holocaust, I seek out Survivors, and witnesses,
I argue with deniers, people who seem to hate all people of the Jewish
Faith, people who lie freely about historical facts, ignorant people who
express foolish opinions, rather than facts, mean people who say: "The
Holocaust Didn't Happen, and It Should Happen Again."
Skeptics, who do not know the facts, but they just can't believe such
things happened, so they argue minor points and split hairs.
When I decided to enter the fray. I believed my experinces would be
advantages, and I still believe that, because I can speak from a first
hand position.
One problem though, some deniers, are poor losers, and they resort to all
kinds of pretentiousness in the hopes of winning by default. "Don't worry
about proven historical facts, prove your credibility."
Well, for the record (again) I don't lie about what I saw during WW-II. I
don't lie when arguing with other posters on AR. Either we argue on the
caliber of our knowledge and experience, or we don't argue at all.
The five years spent in the military, was a duty men of my generation all
faced, and they did a first class job. I'm proud of my service. We
Americans did something *great* for the world, as did many other Allied
countries.
In the
>same way, Phillips uses his Jewish lineage to validate his anti-Jewish feelings
>and his viewpoint on Revisionism, Nazis, etc. It's not merely referential, it's
>fundamental. Thus, when Phillips demands proof that Chuck is what he represents
>himself to be, it is only just that we ask Phillips for the same proof.
CF:> From my point of view, I don't care whether phillips is a Jew or whatever.
I do know for a fact, that phillips is a liar.
Chuck Ferree
>
>All the rest is window dressing.
>
>Dep
>
>"Always tell the truth. It's the easiest thing to remember."
> --David Mamet
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>Like short haired women? Snotty comments? Penguins?
>http://members.aol.com/deppitybob/shlu/PAGEONE.html
--
The Nazis were bad...get used to it!
Chuck Ferree
deppi...@aol.comx.y.z... (DeppityBob) wrote:
>lots of snippage to get right to the point:
>
>>
>>>> > Yes, quite. Phillips introduced his Jewishness into the
>>>> > newsgroup. If Phillips demands that Chuck post documents
>>>> > to prove his background, a similar demand to Phillips is quite
>>>> > valid. You wouldn't want a double standard, now would you
>>>> > Anthony?
>>>>
>>>> No, I don't, but I think you misunderstood what I said. My
>>>> reply was in response to your "You consider them to have
>>>> significance, so you demand proof of those claims." I was
>>>> saying that since Chuck presents himself as a witness to
>>>> the events under discussion, his credentials *are* of
>>>> "significance". I have no problem with anyone asking for
>>>> Richard's, although I fail to see the connection between
>>>> him and the Nazi holocaust.
>>>
>>>You fail to see the connection between a person who says he
>>>is a Jew, yet excoriates Jews at every step of the way and has
>>>said publicly several times, that he has no problem with the
>>>Nazis murdering millions of Jews?
>>
>>No, that is not what I said. Again: I fail to see the connection between
>>Richard's 'Jewishness' and Chuck's claim of being an eyewitness to the
>>events under discussion here. The latter bears direct "significance" --
>>your
>>word -- to the newsgroup while the former is trivia at best.
>
Jeffrey G. Brown
<rgph...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>Richard Phillips wrote:
>
>> Allan Matthews wrote:
> [...deletia...]
>> > We have only your word that you emigrated. You are a known liar, so your
>> > word is particularly worthless.
>
>===================================================
>PHillips
>
>May I ask whether you have any basis for that other than the postings of
Jeffrey Brown. Your
>politics is your own business. However, as an ostensibly mature adult,
you really ought to
>have sufficient discernment to perceive SOMETHING of Brown's character
and to realize that
>he is something considerably less than responsible; indeed, whether he is
even entitled to
>be CALLED an adult.
Of course, like the true moral coward that he is, Philllips is unable
and/or unwilling to actually address the _content_ of my proof that he is
a liar.
Richard G. Philllips is a proven liar, period, and it doesn't matter who
posts the evidence. The facts of the matter remain what they are.
JGB
=====================================================================
Jeffrey G. Brown jeff_...@bigfoot.com
"What's going to happen?" "Something wonderful..." -- '2010'
Richard Phillips
Allan Matthews wrote:
> In article <36DA6779...@mediaone.net>, rgph...@mediaone.net
> says...
> >> Allan Matthews wrote:
> >> > We have only your word that you emigrated. You are a known liar, so your
> >> > word is particularly worthless.
>
> >May I ask whether you have any basis for that other than the postings of Jeffrey Brown.
>
> Your own words clearly mark you as a liar. A number of people, myself
> included, have pointed out your lies.
=================================
Phillips
Which words?
===========================
>
>
> >Your politics is your own business.
>
> Not according to neo-Nazi filth like you. Have you forgotten that your
> heroes in the 3rd Reich made certain political viewpoints captial
> offenses?
===============================
Phillips
Yes, according to neo-Nazi filth like me.
=============================
>
>
> >However, as an ostensibly mature adult,
>
> As you don't fall into this category you are in no position to comment on
> those of us who do, Phillllllllllips.
>
> >you really ought to
> >have sufficient discernment to perceive SOMETHING of Brown's character and to realize that
> >he is something considerably less than responsible; indeed, whether he is even entitled to
> >be CALLED an adult.
>
> And your evidence that Mr. Brown is of bad character is what exactly?
> Remember that evidence-free accusations made by his detractors are
> worthless.
====================================
Phillips
Experience garnered in over two years on this NG and after seeing his posts to a number that
must run into the hundreds. IN view of what I have seen, certain inferences are legitimate.
========================================
Richard Phillips
Allan Matthews wrote:
> In article <36DA6779...@mediaone.net>, rgph...@mediaone.net
> says...
> >> Allan Matthews wrote:
> >> > We have only your word that you emigrated. You are a known liar, so your
> >> > word is particularly worthless.
>
> >May I ask whether you have any basis for that other than the postings of Jeffrey Brown.
>
> Your own words clearly mark you as a liar. A number of people, myself
> included, have pointed out your lies.
=======================================
Phillips
Yes, it is certainly helpful to have a whole tribe of worshipful sycophants always ready to
say "Amen" to whatever you post. And, fighting alone as I must, it can be a problme when five
people --A,B,C,D,E-- come back at me, I reply to A,B,C,D only to have E chime in with:
"Phillips refuses to answer my question."
Now I would ask you again: what words of mine (repeat: of mine, not of Jeffrey's) brand me as a
liar.
=================================================================
>
>
> >Your politics is your own business.
>
> Not according to neo-Nazi filth like you.
============================================
Phillips
Yes, according to neo-nazi filth like me.
==============================================
> Have you forgotten that your
> heroes in the 3rd Reich made certain political viewpoints captial
> offenses?
=============================================
Phillips
Treason was certainly a capital offence, and certain political viewpoints could get you in
serious trouble. But, so far as I am aware, I don't believe anyone was ever executed purely
for his beliefs, imprisoned, certainly, but not ecxecuted. I could be wrong about this; correct
me if this is the case.
================================================
>
>
> >However, as an ostensibly mature adult,
>
> As you don't fall into this category you are in no position to comment on
> those of us who do, Phillllllllllips.
==================================
PHillips
Since this seems to be the season for demanding each others' bonafides, I hope you will not
take it amiss if I tell you that you give me strong reason to wonder if your name is really
Matthews. I mean: was that the name that you, your father, and your paternal grandfather were
born to?
I say this because you exhibit to a remarkable degree the reflexes of the paranoid Jew. Such
people demand rationality from all others BUT let their priceless belief systems be challenged
and they instantly begin lashing out in every direction at anything and everything they
possibly can.
In sum, it is useless for you to pretend to be a reasonable individual because you are not.
================================================================
>
>
> >you really ought to
> >have sufficient discernment to perceive SOMETHING of Brown's character and to realize that
> >he is something considerably less than responsible; indeed, whether he is even entitled to
> >be CALLED an adult.
>
> And your evidence that Mr. Brown is of bad character is what exactly?
> Remember that evidence-free accusations made by his detractors are
> worthless.
>
Jeffrey G. Brown
<rgph...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>Allan Matthews wrote:
> [...deletia...]
>> Your own words clearly mark you as a liar. A number of people, myself
>> included, have pointed out your lies.
>
>=================================
>Phillips
>
>Which words?
These words, Liar:
In an article <http://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=317091642> posted on 18
Jan 1998, Richard Phillips <rgp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
I hereby make to Ms Laura Finsten the following offer:
Agree to snail-mail me one (just ONE) facsimile of a gas
chamber drawing produced by a Hitler-era German construction
company and I will pay you, in advance, $100.
About a month later, on 23 Feb 1998, Richard Phillips
<rgp...@earthlink.net> responded to an inquiry from Steve Mock
<sm...@veritas.nizkor.org> thusly
<http://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=328061340>:
sm...@veritas.nizkor.org wrote:
> [...deletia...]
> Tell me, Phillips, is the offer still good?
> I happen to have a copy of Pressac on loan for the next little while, and
> don't have a whole lot of pressing business at work tomorrow. So, what the
> hell?
>
> Steve Mock
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
============================================================
Phillips
Is the offer still open? Yes it is, but the requirements are strict.
(1) The drawings are to be snail-mailed to me at
Richard Phillips
55 Crystal Ave, #311
Derry, NH 03038
(2) The drawings are to be full-sized because a reduced-size
drawing would make it impossible to make out the logo of the
designing company.
(3) The drawings (in addition to being full-sized) must be
sufficiently clear so that I can make out the logo of the company
that built them and the signature of the approving engineer.
(4) The drawings must show me exactly how the structure was put
together. what sort of structural members were used? I-beams,
angle irons. Were they assembled by welding or riveting.
(5) I will need details of the gas-tight door. Was it built by
that company or was it a purchased part. What sort of sealing
gasket was used.
(6) I will need to know the specification and placement of all
motors, vans, ventilators, etc.
(7) I will need full electrical wiring diagrams including switch
boxes, fuses, circuit-breakers, emergency cutouts, etc. Did the
facility use electrical power already at the camp or did it
generate its own.
(8) I will need drawings showing exactly how the lethal agent was
introduced into the chamber.
(9) I will need to know whether assembly took place at the
company's or whether the facility ewas shipped in kit form and
assembled at the camp.
(10) I will also need to see a manual giving the following:
(a) Instructions for use. (This would include considerable
material on what we today would call 'crowd control.' After all,
people who know they are for the chop can get unpredictable.)
These instructions will also explain how to introduce the lethal
agent, the time needed for execution, time and procedure needed
for defuming.
(b) Procedures for maintenance and troulbeshooting. This would
have to include a list of replacement parts.
If you have all of that, we can talk about it. Be assured that
your labour will be liberally reimbursed.
Two months later, on 29 Apr 1998, Philllips posted his now-famous lie
<http://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=348715783>:
steve mock wrote:
> [...deletia...]
> Well, for crying out loud, Phillips - that was only because you kept
> changing your criterea every time I met them.
=====================================
Phillips
My demands now are exactly what they were at the beginning.
Simple comparison of the first two posts clearly shows that Philllips'
demands were anything but "what they were at the beginning". He has, of
course, gone on to post many more lies -- but this is the one that earned
him his nickname.
Liar Philllips is also lying when he claims that he "originally posed a
fairly formidable list of requirements" and later "backed off a bit". The
facts show that he did the exact opposite -- and then lied about making
any change at all.
yale_f._edeiken
> Allan Matthews wrote:
> > Have you forgotten that your
> > heroes in the 3rd Reich made certain political viewpoints captial
> > offenses?
> Treason was certainly a capital offence, and certain political viewpoints could get
you in
> serious trouble. But, so far as I am aware, I don't believe anyone was ever
executed purely
> for his beliefs, imprisoned, certainly, but not ecxecuted. I could be wrong about
this; correct
> me if this is the case.
Start with Neimoller. Or, if you wish, consider this statement:
In the forefront, for the number and harshness of the
treatment meted out to them, are the Polish priests. From 1940 to
1945, 2,800 Polish ecclesiatics and religious were imprisoned in
that camp [Dachau]; among them was the Auxilliary Bishop of
Wloclawek, who died there of typhus. In April last there were left
only 816, all the others being dead except for two or three
transferred to another camp. In the summer of 1942, 480 German-speaking ministers
of religion were known to be gathered there
[Dachau]; . . . Nor should we pass over in silence those belonging
to occupied territories, Holland, Belgium. France (among whom the
Bishop of Clermont), Luxembourg, Slovenia, Italy. Many of those
priests and laymen endured indescribable sufferings for their faith
and for their vocaion. In one case the hatred of the imious
against Christ reached the point of parodying on the person of an
interned priest with barbed wire, the scourging and the crowning
with thorns of our Redeemer.
Pope Pius XII, June 2, 1945
Should you still be unconvinced there are various decisions of German
courts sentencing people to death for telling jokes about Hitler (including at least one
priest). Are you unaware of them?
--YFE
The Holocaust History Project is at http://www.holocaust-history.org/
The Nizkor Project is at http://www.nizkor.org/
The Einsatzgruppen page is at http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/
The Cybrary of the Holocaust is at http://www.remember.org/
Allan Matthews
>Allan Matthews wrote:
>
>> In article <36DA6779...@mediaone.net>, rgph...@mediaone.net
>> says...
>> >> Allan Matthews wrote:
>> >> > We have only your word that you emigrated. You are a known liar, so your
>> >> > word is particularly worthless.
>>
>> >May I ask whether you have any basis for that other than the postings of Jeffrey Brown.
>>
>> included, have pointed out your lies.
>
>Phillips
>
>Yes, it is certainly helpful to have a whole tribe of worshipful sycophants always ready to
>say "Amen" to whatever you post. And, fighting alone as I must, it can be a problme when five
>people --A,B,C,D,E-- come back at me, I reply to A,B,C,D only to have E chime in with:
>"Phillips refuses to answer my question."
>
>Now I would ask you again: what words of mine (repeat: of mine, not of Jeffrey's) brand me as a
>liar.
As is oft-posted to this conference, you made certain demands regarding
the plans for the Nazi's gas chambers. You then changed those demands
and then claimed you hadn't. That makes you a liar.
But then here it is again, IN YOUR OWN WORDS:
In <http://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=317091642> you wrote:
I hereby make to Ms Laura Finsten the following offer:
Agree to snail-mail me one (just ONE) facsimile of a gas
chamber drawing produced by a Hitler-era German construction
company and I will pay you, in advance, $100.
About a month later, you wrote to Steve Mock in message
<http://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=328061340>:
sm...@veritas.nizkor.org wrote:
> [...deletia...]
> Tell me, Phillips, is the offer still good?
> I happen to have a copy of Pressac on loan for the next little
> while, and don't have a whole lot of pressing business at work
> tomorrow. So, what the hell?
>
> Steve Mock
Two months later you posted your oft-cited lie in message
<http://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=348715783>:
steve mock wrote:
> [...deletia...]
> Well, for crying out loud, Phillips - that was only because you kept
> changing your criterea every time I met them.
=====================================
Phillips
My demands now are exactly what they were at the beginning.
A quick comparison of your first two posts shows this claim is not true.
It is, therefore, a lie and you, Mr. Philllllllllips, are thus a proven
liar. More than one person pointed this out at the time and more than
one person regularly reminds you of it currently.
There are other examples. A quick perusal of dejanews yields quite a
number, but I leave that as an exercise for the reader.
>> >Your politics is your own business.
>>
>> Not according to neo-Nazi filth like you.
>Yes, according to neo-nazi filth like me.
Then, clearly, you're either demonstrating your ignorance or lack of
honesty again.
>> Have you forgotten that your
>> heroes in the 3rd Reich made certain political viewpoints captial
>> offenses?
>Treason was certainly a capital offence, and certain political viewpoints could get you in
>serious trouble. But, so far as I am aware,
As we've seen time and again what you're aware of is very, very limited,
Phillllllllllips.
>I don't believe anyone was ever executed purely
>for his beliefs, imprisoned, certainly, but not ecxecuted.
What you believe is irrelevant. You are a proven idiot with very bizarre
beliefs.
>I could be wrong about this;
No kidding. The Nazi executed people for a myriad of reasons, including
their politics.
>correct me if this is the case.
Ever hear of the "Night of the Long Knives?" And that was how they
treated their own.
Then, for example, the military tribunal sitting at Nuremberg concluded
based on the evidence presented to it that "The extermination program on
racial and political grounds also extended to prisoners of war."
There are also many testimonials from political prisoners from the
concentration and death camps that you might find worthwhile reading on
the subject.
>> >However, as an ostensibly mature adult,
>>
>> As you don't fall into this category you are in no position to comment on
>> those of us who do, Phillllllllllips.
>Since this seems to be the season for demanding each others' bonafides, I hope you will not
>take it amiss if I tell you that you give me strong reason to wonder if your name is really
>Matthews.
Yes, well, you're an idiot with delusions of mattering.
>I mean: was that the name that you, your father, and your paternal grandfather were
>born to?
Yes. My birth records can be found in Cook County, Illinois. I was born
there in the town of Hinsdale in March 1961. My father's and
grandfather's birth records can be found in South Wales, ynfytyn (look it
up). I also suppose that my father's birth records can be obtained from
the RAF.
And, BTW, Happy Saint David's Day to my fellow Welshmen and women.
>I say this because you exhibit to a remarkable degree the reflexes of the paranoid Jew.
ROTFL! Only to a wacko like you, Phillllllllips. But then, you exhibit
to a remarkable degree the reflexes of a complete loonie.
>Such people demand rationality from all others BUT let their priceless belief systems be challenged
>and they instantly begin lashing out in every direction at anything and everything they
>possibly can.
You're projecting again. You do what you describe above on a daily
basis.
>In sum, it is useless for you to pretend to be a reasonable individual because you are not.
And you certainly are not, Phillllllllps. As you have said yourself, you
don't feel constrained by the limitations of logic and reason in your
arguments. All those of us dedicated to logic and reason can do,
therefore, is take amusement at your behavior, which we do. Your recent
comments on the B-17 and the UL label, for example, have been hilarious.
>> >you really ought to
>> >have sufficient discernment to perceive SOMETHING of Brown's character and to realize that
>> >he is something considerably less than responsible; indeed, whether he is even entitled to
>> >be CALLED an adult.
>>
>> And your evidence that Mr. Brown is of bad character is what exactly?
>> Remember that evidence-free accusations made by his detractors are
>> worthless.
Note that Liar Phillllllllips doesn't respond to this question. One can
only conclude that he has no such evidence and that his attacks on Mr.
Brown's character, like those he makes on mine, are nothing but libel.
Chuck Ferree
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Richard Phillips
Allan Matthews wrote:
> In article <36DB40D6...@mediaone.net>, rgph...@mediaone.net
> says...
> >Allan Matthews wrote:
> >
> >> In article <36DA6779...@mediaone.net>, rgph...@mediaone.net
> >> says...
> >> >> Allan Matthews wrote:
> >> >> > We have only your word that you emigrated. You are a known liar, so your
> >> >> > word is particularly worthless.
> >>
> >> >May I ask whether you have any basis for that other than the postings of Jeffrey Brown.
> >>
> >> Your own words clearly mark you as a liar. A number of people, myself
> >> included, have pointed out your lies.
> >
> >=======================================
> >Phillips
> >
> >Yes, it is certainly helpful to have a whole tribe of worshipful sycophants always ready to
> >say "Amen" to whatever you post. And, fighting alone as I must, it can be a problme when five
> >people --A,B,C,D,E-- come back at me, I reply to A,B,C,D only to have E chime in with:
> >"Phillips refuses to answer my question."
> >
> >Now I would ask you again: what words of mine (repeat: of mine, not of Jeffrey's) brand me as a
> >liar.
>
> As is oft-posted to this conference, you made certain demands regarding
> the plans for the Nazi's gas chambers. You then changed those demands
> and then claimed you hadn't. That makes you a liar.
>
> But then here it is again, IN YOUR OWN WORDS:
>
> In <http://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=317091642> you wrote:
>
> I hereby make to Ms Laura Finsten the following offer:
>
> Agree to snail-mail me one (just ONE) facsimile of a gas
> chamber drawing produced by a Hitler-era German construction
> company and I will pay you, in advance, $100.
>
> About a month later, you wrote to Steve Mock in message
> <http://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=328061340>:
>
> sm...@veritas.nizkor.org wrote:
>
> > [...deletia...]
>
> > Tell me, Phillips, is the offer still good?
> > I happen to have a copy of Pressac on loan for the next little
> > while, and don't have a whole lot of pressing business at work
> > tomorrow. So, what the hell?
> >
> > Steve Mock
>
> ============================================================
> Phillips
>
> Is the offer still open? Yes it is, but the requirements are strict.
>
> (1) The drawings are to be snail-mailed to me at
>
> Richard Phillips
> 55 Crystal Ave, #311
> Derry, NH 03038
>
> (2) The drawings are to be full-sized because a reduced-size
> drawing would make it impossible to make out the logo of the
> designing company.
>
> (3) The drawings (in addition to being full-sized) must be
> sufficiently clear so that I can make out the logo of the company
> that built them and the signature of the approving engineer.
>
> (4) The drawings must show me exactly how the structure was put
> together. what sort of structural members were used? I-beams,
> angle irons. Were they assembled by welding or riveting.
>
> (5) I will need details of the gas-tight door. Was it built by
> that company or was it a purchased part. What sort of sealing
> gasket was used.
>
> (6) I will need to know the specification and placement of all
> motors, vans, ventilators, etc.
>
> (7) I will need full electrical wiring diagrams including switch
> boxes, fuses, circuit-breakers, emergency cutouts, etc. Did the
> facility use electrical power already at the camp or did it
> generate its own.
>
> (8) I will need drawings showing exactly how the lethal agent was
> introduced into the chamber.
>
> (9) I will need to know whether assembly took place at the
> company's or whether the facility ewas shipped in kit form and
> assembled at the camp.
>
> (10) I will also need to see a manual giving the following:
>
> (a) Instructions for use. (This would include considerable
> material on what we today would call 'crowd control.' After all,
> people who know they are for the chop can get unpredictable.)
> These instructions will also explain how to introduce the lethal
> agent, the time needed for execution, time and procedure needed
> for defuming.
>
> (b) Procedures for maintenance and troulbeshooting. This would
> have to include a list of replacement parts.
>
> If you have all of that, we can talk about it. Be assured that
> your labour will be liberally reimbursed.
>
> Two months later you posted your oft-cited lie in message
> <http://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=348715783>:
>
> steve mock wrote:
>
> > [...deletia...]
>
> > Well, for crying out loud, Phillips - that was only because you kept
> > changing your criterea every time I met them.
> =====================================
> Phillips
>
> My demands now are exactly what they were at the beginning.
>
> A quick comparison of your first two posts shows this claim is not true.
> It is, therefore, a lie and you, Mr. Philllllllllips, are thus a proven
> liar. More than one person pointed this out at the time and more than
> one person regularly reminds you of it currently.
=========================================
Phillips
In other words, you have nothing except Brown's fabricated case. May I ask that we at least attempt to
be honest in our use of words. An inaccurate statement is not necessarily a lie and two inconsistent
statements do not necessarily make a lie. For someting to BE a lie there HAS to be a deliberate intent
to deceive. There was none in my case.
I grew up long before the age of Internet. IN those days the only way to call a man a liar was to his
face, not from the remoteness and anonymity of a computer screen, and you DIDN'T say that to a man
unless you were prepared to back it up with your hands. That's going back a mere fifty years. 200 years
ago the consequences of using that word could be even worse. If you were lucky you might get off with
merely a horsewhipping; if unlucky it could well result in a challenge to a duel.
In any event, this is a beautiful illustration of the sort of trickery and obfuscation one finds here.
For me the question was: can you people come up with any solid physical proof of the existnece and
operation of execution gas chambers. Oh no, you people way. the REAL issue is that Phillips changed his
demands.
====================================================================
>
>
> There are other examples. A quick perusal of dejanews yields quite a
> number, but I leave that as an exercise for the reader.
>
> >> >Your politics is your own business.
> >>
> >> Not according to neo-Nazi filth like you.
>
> >Yes, according to neo-nazi filth like me.
>
> Then, clearly, you're either demonstrating your ignorance or lack of
> honesty again.
==================================
Phillips
why so?
============================
>
>
> >> Have you forgotten that your
> >> heroes in the 3rd Reich made certain political viewpoints captial
> >> offenses?
>
> >Treason was certainly a capital offence, and certain political viewpoints could get you in
> >serious trouble. But, so far as I am aware,
>
> As we've seen time and again what you're aware of is very, very limited,
> Phillllllllllips.
>
> >I don't believe anyone was ever executed purely
> >for his beliefs, imprisoned, certainly, but not ecxecuted.
>
> What you believe is irrelevant. You are a proven idiot with very bizarre
> beliefs.
>
> >I could be wrong about this;
>
> No kidding. The Nazi executed people for a myriad of reasons, including
> their politics.
>
> >correct me if this is the case.
>
> Ever hear of the "Night of the Long Knives?" And that was how they
> treated their own.
==========================================
Phillips
Yes, that was the night they largely liquidated the SA. This was done probably at the behest of the
existing military and business establishment who saw the SA as a genuine revolutionary force.
NOw can you give me instances, once the Nazis were established in power, of their executing persons
PURELY for their political beliefs.
===================================
>
>
> Then, for example, the military tribunal sitting at Nuremberg concluded
> based on the evidence presented to it that "The extermination program on
> racial and political grounds also extended to prisoners of war."
============================================
Phillips
Sorry but I'm not about to take the "findings" of the Nurmburg Trials as gospel
======================================
>
>
> There are also many testimonials from political prisoners from the
> concentration and death camps that you might find worthwhile reading on
> the subject.
====================================
Phillips
How could they have BEEN prisoners if, as you claim, they were executed for their political beliefs?
===========================================================
>
>
> >> >However, as an ostensibly mature adult,
> >>
> >> As you don't fall into this category you are in no position to comment on
> >> those of us who do, Phillllllllllips.
>
> >Since this seems to be the season for demanding each others' bonafides, I hope you will not
> >take it amiss if I tell you that you give me strong reason to wonder if your name is really
> >Matthews.
>
> Yes, well, you're an idiot with delusions of mattering.
>
> >I mean: was that the name that you, your father, and your paternal grandfather were
> >born to?
>
> Yes. My birth records can be found in Cook County, Illinois. I was born
> there in the town of Hinsdale in March 1961. My father's and
> grandfather's birth records can be found in South Wales, ynfytyn (look it
> up). I also suppose that my father's birth records can be obtained from
> the RAF.
>
> And, BTW, Happy Saint David's Day to my fellow Welshmen and women.
=================================================
Phillips
You've convinced me.
========================
>
>
> >I say this because you exhibit to a remarkable degree the reflexes of the paranoid Jew.
>
> ROTFL! Only to a wacko like you, Phillllllllips. But then, you exhibit
> to a remarkable degree the reflexes of a complete loonie.
>
> >Such people demand rationality from all others BUT let their priceless belief systems be challenged
> >and they instantly begin lashing out in every direction at anything and everything they
> >possibly can.
>
> You're projecting again. You do what you describe above on a daily
> basis.
>
> >In sum, it is useless for you to pretend to be a reasonable individual because you are not.
>
> And you certainly are not, Phillllllllps. As you have said yourself, you
> don't feel constrained by the limitations of logic and reason in your
> arguments. All those of us dedicated to logic and reason can do,
> therefore, is take amusement at your behavior, which we do. Your recent
> comments on the B-17 and the UL label, for example, have been hilarious.
===============================================
PHillips
In the case of the B-17 controversy, what i mainly did was to state my theories about what affects a
plane's bomb carrying capacity. Everyone is convinced ithey are preposterous; no one has adduced one
solitary reason why they should be considered so.
In the case of the UL label, I confess to having been slow on the update. Not quite the same thing as
being a loonie or wacko - as I'm sure you will agree.
=======================================================
>
>
> >> >you really ought to
> >> >have sufficient discernment to perceive SOMETHING of Brown's character and to realize that
> >> >he is something considerably less than responsible; indeed, whether he is even entitled to
> >> >be CALLED an adult.
> >>
> >> And your evidence that Mr. Brown is of bad character is what exactly?
> >> Remember that evidence-free accusations made by his detractors are
> >> worthless.
=========================================
Phillips
I have stated them several times.
(1) That virtually every post he makes is an attack on someone. I have never seen him make any sort of
original contribution for the good reason that he does not have the mental clarity or power for it. He
finds it much safer to stand on the sidelines and nitpick at the postings of others. Is this the mark of
a balanced individual?
(2) That in calling me a liar he demonstrates either of two things: (a) an unwillingness to be honest in
his use of words or (b) the moral sense of a six-year old.
(3) From that one solitary incident, he was not content to call me a liar just once. No, ever since
then it's always been "Liar Phillips." In this way Brown demonstrates his infantilism. PIcture two
six-year old children, A and B. A discovers that something he says can irritate B. So naturally he goes
on repeating it ad infinitum.
======================================================
>
>
> Note that Liar Phillllllllips doesn't respond to this question. One can
> only conclude that he has no such evidence and that his attacks on Mr.
> Brown's character, like those he makes on mine, are nothing but libel.
=======================================
Phillips
See above.
==================
>
>
> allan
> --
> ================================================================
> allan_m...@bigfoot.com
> ================================================================
> "Some people just cannot be permitted to have the same rights"
> ---> 'Richard G. Philllips'
> ================================================================
> http://www2.shore.net/~matthews/
> ================================================================
Richard Phillips
Yale, F., Edeiken wrote:
> > Richard Phillips <rgph...@mediaone.net> writes:
>
> > Allan Matthews wrote:
>
>
> > > Have you forgotten that your
> > > heroes in the 3rd Reich made certain political viewpoints captial
> > > offenses?
>
> > Treason was certainly a capital offence, and certain political viewpoints could get
> you in
> > serious trouble. But, so far as I am aware, I don't believe anyone was ever
> executed purely
> > for his beliefs, imprisoned, certainly, but not ecxecuted. I could be wrong about
> this; correct
> > me if this is the case.
>
> Start with Neimoller. Or, if you wish, consider this statement:
>
> In the forefront, for the number and harshness of the
> treatment meted out to them, are the Polish priests. From 1940 to
> 1945, 2,800 Polish ecclesiatics and religious were imprisoned in
> that camp [Dachau]; among them was the Auxilliary Bishop of
> Wloclawek, who died there of typhus. In April last there were left
> only 816, all the others being dead except for two or three
> transferred to another camp. In the summer of 1942, 480 German-speaking ministers
> of religion were known to be gathered there
> [Dachau]; . . . Nor should we pass over in silence those belonging
> to occupied territories, Holland, Belgium. France (among whom the
> Bishop of Clermont), Luxembourg, Slovenia, Italy. Many of those
> priests and laymen endured indescribable sufferings for their faith
> and for their vocaion. In one case the hatred of the imious
> against Christ reached the point of parodying on the person of an
> interned priest with barbed wire, the scourging and the crowning
> with thorns of our Redeemer.
======================================
Phillips
The question is: were people executed purely for their political beliefs. IMprisonment and
consequent suffering are not quite the same as execution.
==================================
>
>
> Pope Pius XII, June 2, 1945
>
> Should you still be unconvinced there are various decisions of German
> courts sentencing people to death for telling jokes about Hitler (including at least one
> priest). Are you unaware of them?
=======================================
Phillips
I have no doubt that telling a joke of that sort could certainly land you in a concentration
camp. I do not believe people were ROUTINELY executed for that particular offence. If the
instances of execution you allude to did in fact happren, you might find there were
exceptional circumstances involved.
===========================================================
>
>
> --YFE
>
> The Holocaust History Project is at http://www.holocaust-history.org/
> The Nizkor Project is at http://www.nizkor.org/
> The Einsatzgruppen page is at http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/
> The Cybrary of the Holocaust is at http://www.remember.org/
Richard Phillips
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Richard Phillips
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Allan Matthews
says...
There is nothing of Brown's here. As you demanded there is nothing above
BUT YOUR OWN WORDS.
>May I ask that we at least attempt to
>be honest
ROTFL!!! You ask that we be honest? That's o.k. with me. You're the
habitual liar here, after all, Phillllllllllips.
>in our use of words.
O.k. You're a liar and a hypocrite.
>An inaccurate statement is not necessarily a lie and two inconsistent
>statements do not necessarily make a lie.
No, but in this case they do. You made inconsistent statements and then
claimed you didn't. That claim was the lie, not the inconsistent
statements.
>For someting to BE a lie there HAS to be a deliberate intent
>to deceive. There was none in my case.
Another lie from Liar Phillllllllips. Just can't stop, can you?
>I grew up long before the age of Internet. IN those days the only
>way to call a man a liar was to his face, not from the remoteness
>and anonymity of a computer screen,
LOL!! You grew up before regular mail service? Or the telephone? Or
the telegram? Clearly you were lying when you said you were just 70
years old then.
>and you DIDN'T say that to a man
But you're not a man; you're just neo-Nazi scum.
>unless you were prepared to back it up with your hands.
Actually, in civilized society one never should have to resort to
violence to support a point of view. You, being neo-Nazi filth,
obviously don't understand that. What a surprise.
>That's going back a mere fifty years.
So you were'nt lying about your age, eh? Then you were lying about that
"to your face" crapola. Either that or your grasp of history and
technology is sorely lacking.
>200 years ago
You'd have still been a liar. Besides, you've demonstrated time and
again that your grasp of history is abysmal, so any claims you make
regarding it are suspect.
>the consequences of using that word could be even worse.
Not when the use of the word is accurate, as it is in your case, liar.
>If you were lucky you might get off with
>merely a horsewhipping; if unlucky it could well result in a challenge
>to a duel.
Is this ranting a poorly veiled threat on your part, Phillllllips, or
just laughable macho posturing from a fascist geezer?
You're a liar. "Go home and worry about it."
>In any event, this is a beautiful illustration of the sort of trickery
>and obfuscation one finds here.
From revisionazis and their ilk, like Philllllllllips, here, at any rate.
He's trying furiously to obfuscate the fact that he's a habitual liar and
to trick us into believing he's an honest and moral fellow.
>For me the question was: can you people come up with any solid physical proof
>of the existnece and operation of execution gas chambers.
And as people supplied you with proof you changed the standard of proof
you demanded. Then you lied about having done so. That's one reason we
call you Liar Phillllllllllllips.
>Oh no, you people way. the REAL issue is that Phillips changed his
>demands.
Given that the existence of the gas chambers is a historical fact all
that we rational people can do is laugh at your attempts to bury your
head in the sand in your desperate attempt to maintain the pretense of
ignorance.
>> There are other examples. A quick perusal of dejanews yields quite a
>> number, but I leave that as an exercise for the reader.
>>
>> >> >Your politics is your own business.
>> >>
>> >> Not according to neo-Nazi filth like you.
>>
>> >Yes, according to neo-nazi filth like me.
>>
>> Then, clearly, you're either demonstrating your ignorance or lack of
>> honesty again.
>why so?
Playing dumb, eh? Of course, for you that's easy.
>> >> Have you forgotten that your
>> >> heroes in the 3rd Reich made certain political viewpoints captial
>> >> offenses?
>>
>> >Treason was certainly a capital offence, and certain political viewpoints could get you in
>> >serious trouble. But, so far as I am aware,
>>
>> As we've seen time and again what you're aware of is very, very limited,
>> Phillllllllllips.
>>
>> >I don't believe anyone was ever executed purely
>> >for his beliefs, imprisoned, certainly, but not ecxecuted.
>>
>> What you believe is irrelevant. You are a proven idiot with very bizarre
>> beliefs.
>>
>> >I could be wrong about this;
>>
>> No kidding. The Nazi executed people for a myriad of reasons, including
>> their politics.
>>
>> >correct me if this is the case.
>>
>> Ever hear of the "Night of the Long Knives?" And that was how they
>> treated their own.
>Yes, that was the night they largely liquidated the SA. This was done
>probably at the behest of the existing military and business establishment
>who saw the SA as a genuine revolutionary force.
So, in other words, the Nazis killed members of the SA over politics. So
much for your claim of ignorance regarding political executions by the
Nazis. Clearly that claim was just another lie on your part.
>NOw can you give me instances, once the Nazis were established in power,
>of their executing persons PURELY for their political beliefs.
The records of the Holocaust are filled with such cases. Others have
presented you with some. Of course all you'll do is bury your head in
the sand and dishonestly continue to claim ignorance on the subject.
>> Then, for example, the military tribunal sitting at Nuremberg concluded
>> based on the evidence presented to it that "The extermination program on
>> racial and political grounds also extended to prisoners of war."
>Sorry but I'm not about to take the "findings" of the Nurmburg Trials as gospel
Then read about the evidence that led to those conclusions.
Of course, given your admitted refusal to rely on logic and reason it
comes as no surprise that you discount the historical record and cling
tightly to your denier fantasies.
>> There are also many testimonials from political prisoners from the
>> concentration and death camps that you might find worthwhile reading on
>> the subject.
>How could they have BEEN prisoners if, as you claim, they were executed
>for their political beliefs?
Boy are you dumb. These testimonials are, OBVIOUSLY, from witnesses to
such executions.
>> >> >However, as an ostensibly mature adult,
>> >>
>> >> As you don't fall into this category you are in no position to comment on
>> >> those of us who do, Phillllllllllips.
>>
>> >Since this seems to be the season for demanding each others' bonafides, I hope you will not
>> >take it amiss if I tell you that you give me strong reason to wonder if your name is really
>> >Matthews.
>>
>> Yes, well, you're an idiot with delusions of mattering.
>>
>> >I mean: was that the name that you, your father, and your paternal grandfather were
>> >born to?
>>
>> Yes. My birth records can be found in Cook County, Illinois. I was born
>> there in the town of Hinsdale in March 1961. My father's and
>> grandfather's birth records can be found in South Wales, ynfytyn (look it
>> up). I also suppose that my father's birth records can be obtained from
>> the RAF.
>>
>> And, BTW, Happy Saint David's Day to my fellow Welshmen and women.
>You've convinced me.
Like I care, ynfytyn.
>> >I say this because you exhibit to a remarkable degree the reflexes of the paranoid Jew.
>>
>> ROTFL! Only to a wacko like you, Phillllllllips. But then, you exhibit
>> to a remarkable degree the reflexes of a complete loonie.
>>
>> >Such people demand rationality from all others BUT let their priceless belief systems be challenged
>> >and they instantly begin lashing out in every direction at anything and everything they
>> >possibly can.
>>
>> You're projecting again. You do what you describe above on a daily
>> basis.
>>
>> >In sum, it is useless for you to pretend to be a reasonable individual because you are not.
>>
>> And you certainly are not, Phillllllllps. As you have said yourself, you
>> don't feel constrained by the limitations of logic and reason in your
>> arguments. All those of us dedicated to logic and reason can do,
>> therefore, is take amusement at your behavior, which we do. Your recent
>> comments on the B-17 and the UL label, for example, have been hilarious.
>In the case of the B-17 controversy,
There was no "controversy," only your usual laughable ravings in the face
of historical fact and objective reality.
>what i mainly did was to state my
>theories about what affects a plane's bomb carrying capacity.
No, what you mainly did was show that you're a complete prat and a crappy
engineer.
>Everyone is convinced they are preposterous; no one has adduced one
>solitary reason why they should be considered so.
Aside from the fact that they contradict what Boeing said about the B-17.
That and the fact that you were never able to demonstrate that your
ravings had any connection whatsoever to reality. These two facts alone
show that your "theories" were nonsense.
No wonder you were a failure as an engineer. My 17 month old thinks more
clearly and logically than you.
>In the case of the UL label, I confess to having been slow on the update.
That's "uptake," twit.
>Not quite the same thing as
>being a loonie or wacko - as I'm sure you will agree.
True, but in your case you're both an idiot and a loonie.
>> >> >you really ought to
>> >> >have sufficient discernment to perceive SOMETHING of Brown's character and to realize that
>> >> >he is something considerably less than responsible; indeed, whether he is even entitled to
>> >> >be CALLED an adult.
>> >>
>> >> And your evidence that Mr. Brown is of bad character is what exactly?
>> >> Remember that evidence-free accusations made by his detractors are
>> >> worthless.
>I have stated them several times.
>
>(1) That virtually every post he makes is an attack on someone.
>I have never seen him make any sort of original contribution for the good
>reason that he does not have the mental clarity or power for it. He finds it
>much safer to stand on the sidelines and nitpick at the postings of others.
>Is this the mark of a balanced individual?
What Mr. Brown does is ask racists and neo-Nazi filth, such as yourself,
to provide supporting evidence for their outlandish claims. This is a
legitimate activity, as is pointing out their inability to provide such
evidence and labeling them liars when it's appropriate to do so.
That you're so upset about his demonstrations of your ignorance and lying
that you make libelous attacks his character instead of responding to the
substance of his criticisms shows that it is you who is of bad character,
not him.
>(2) That in calling me a liar he demonstrates either of two things:
>(a) an unwillingness to be honest in his use of words or
>(b) the moral sense of a six-year old.
No. His calling you a liar is an accurate description of you, Liar. You
lie so easily and frequently that it is you who clearly has the stunted
moral sense. Of course, your clinging to the disgusting tenets of nazism
is already proof enough of that.
>(3) From that one solitary incident, he was not content to call me a liar
>just once. No, ever since then it's always been "Liar Phillips."
That's because you keep on lying. Any cursory search on your usenet
output on DejaNews demonstrates that little fact conclusively. Indeed,
you've lied at least three times in this thread alone.
>In this way Brown demonstrates his infantilism.
The infantilism lies with the habitual liar and hypocrite. That's you,
Philllllllips.
Now "go home and worry about it."
Yale F. Edeiken
Richard Phillips wrote in message <36DBD1A6...@mediaone.net>...
>
>
>Yale, F., Edeiken wrote:
>
>> > Richard Phillips <rgph...@mediaone.net> writes:
>>
>> > Allan Matthews wrote:
>>
>>
>> > > heroes in the 3rd Reich made certain political viewpoints captial
>> > > offenses?
>>
>> > Treason was certainly a capital offence, and certain political
viewpoints could get
>> you in
was ever
>> executed purely
>> > for his beliefs, imprisoned, certainly, but not ecxecuted. I could be
wrong about
>> this; correct
>> > me if this is the case.
>>
>>
>> In the forefront, for the number and harshness of the
>> treatment meted out to them, are the Polish priests. From 1940 to
>> 1945, 2,800 Polish ecclesiatics and religious were imprisoned in
>> that camp [Dachau]; among them was the Auxilliary Bishop of
>> Wloclawek, who died there of typhus. In April last there were left
>> only 816, all the others being dead except for two or three
>> transferred to another camp. In the summer of 1942, 480 German-speaking
ministers
>> of religion were known to be gathered there
>> [Dachau]; . . . Nor should we pass over in silence those belonging
>> to occupied territories, Holland, Belgium. France (among whom the
>> Bishop of Clermont), Luxembourg, Slovenia, Italy. Many of those
>> priests and laymen endured indescribable sufferings for their faith
>> and for their vocaion. In one case the hatred of the imious
>> against Christ reached the point of parodying on the person of an
>> interned priest with barbed wire, the scourging and the crowning
>> with thorns of our Redeemer.
>The question is: were people executed purely for their political beliefs.
IMprisonment and
>consequent suffering are not quite the same as execution.
You pass over the example of Neimoller and I find your dismissal of the
deaths of 2/3rds of those sent to Dachau as "consequent suffering" as
evasive at best. The truth is that they were sent there with the express
purpose of having them die for their religious beliefs.
>> Pope Pius XII, June 2, 1945
>>
>> Should you still be unconvinced there are various decisions of
German
>> courts sentencing people to death for telling jokes about Hitler
(including at least one
>> priest). Are you unaware of them?
>I have no doubt that telling a joke of that sort could certainly land you
in a concentration
>camp. I do not believe people were ROUTINELY executed for that particular
offence. If the
>instances of execution you allude to did in fact happren, you might find
there were
>exceptional circumstances involved.
Bullshit. I am always amazed at how you nazi-lovers don't even need to
look at the evidence before you start making excuses. The death penalty for
political statements was the policy of the Third Reich. But thank you for
making your excuses for murder in advance. But since you insist look a at
few examples taken from “Hitler’s Justice: the Courts of the Third Reich”
Ingo Muller (tranlated by Deborah Lucas Schneider); Harvard University
Press,1991:
“Franz Vollmer a senior official in the Ministry of Justice, included in
his summary of
judicial decisions for 1943-1944 a whole catalogue of remarks that now
ranked as capital crimes:
“Not to be tolerated and as general principle deserving of the death penalty
. . . . [sic] are remarks
of the following kind: the war is lost; Germany or the Fuehrer started the
war frivolously or to no
purpose; the Nazi party should resign and clear the way for peace
negotiations, as the Italians
have done; a military dictatorship ought to be established and would be able
to make peace; . . . .
Saying that the Fuehrer is sick, incapable, a butcher of men, and so
n.” –page 146
“In the opinion concerning a dealer in machine parts named Fritz Grobe,
whom it
sentenced to death for making disparaging remarks about Goebbels and
Goering, the court
observed, “When [Grobe] [sic] claims that he did not speak in public, this
claim is false, because
it is the aim of National Socialism for the entire German people to concern
itself with politics and
because every political remark must be regarded as a public statement in
principle . . . .[sic] page
146-7
“While on a concert tour, the Dutch pianist Karlrobert Krieten stayed in
Berlin with a
long-time friend of his mother’s who was an ardent National Socialist.
During a meal at her
house, where only two of them were present he made some derogatory remarks
about the regime.
In order to provoke her, he called Hitler “brutal, sick, and insane” and
predicted that the war and
the Nazi era would soon be over. For this he was accused of “giving aid and
comfort to the
enemy” and “undermining morale” and tried before the People’s Court. The
court condemned
him to death on September 3, 1943. . . Karlrobert Krieten was executed on
the night of
September 7-8, 1943” –page 147-148
Quoting a decision of the People’s Court: “Mrs. Frank-Schultz told a Red
Cross nurse she
was sorry that the attempt to murder our Fuehrer failed, and had the
audacity to claim that a few
years of Anglo-Saxon rule would be preferable to “the current reign of
terror.” She therefore
made common cause with the traitors of the twentieth of July. Through this
she has become
dishonored forever. She will be punished by death . . .” Page 151
In the period from 1942 through 1944 the People’s Court heard about 14,000
cases such
as these (and there are no records after November, 1944) for which over
5,000 death sentences
were passed.
As Chuck Feree says, the Nazis were bad. Get used to it. Or you can
make yourself look silly again with more excuses.
Chuck Ferree
(Jeffrey G. Brown) wrote:
>In article <36DA6779...@mediaone.net>, Liar Philllips
><rgph...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
>>Richard Phillips wrote:
>>
>>> Allan Matthews wrote:
>
>> [...deletia...]
>
>>> > We have only your word that you emigrated. You are a known liar, so your
>>> > word is particularly worthless.
>>
>>===================================================
>>PHillips
>>
>>May I ask whether you have any basis for that other than the postings of
>Jeffrey Brown. Your
>>politics is your own business. However, as an ostensibly mature adult,
>you really ought to
>>have sufficient discernment to perceive SOMETHING of Brown's character
>and to realize that
>>he is something considerably less than responsible; indeed, whether he is
>even entitled to
>>be CALLED an adult.
>
>Of course, like the true moral coward that he is, Philllips is unable
>and/or unwilling to actually address the _content_ of my proof that he is
>a liar.
>
>Richard G. Philllips is a proven liar, period, and it doesn't matter who
>posts the evidence. The facts of the matter remain what they are.
>
>JGB
CF:> An old liars creed: "No matter where you go, there you are."
>
>=====================================================================
>Jeffrey G. Brown jeff_...@bigfoot.com
> "What's going to happen?" "Something wonderful..." -- '2010'
--
The Nazis were bad...get used to it!
Chuck Ferree
<rgph...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>Allan Matthews wrote:
>
>> In article <36DA6779...@mediaone.net>, rgph...@mediaone.net
>> says...
>> >> Allan Matthews wrote:
>> >> > We have only your word that you emigrated. You are a known liar,
so your
>> >> > word is particularly worthless.
>>
>> >May I ask whether you have any basis for that other than the postings
of Jeffrey Brown.
>>
>> Your own words clearly mark you as a liar. A number of people, myself
>> included, have pointed out your lies.
>
>=================================
>Phillips
>
>Which words?
CF:> Take your pick!
>===========================
>
>>
>>
>> >Your politics is your own business.
>>
>> Not according to neo-Nazi filth like you. Have you forgotten that your
>> heroes in the 3rd Reich made certain political viewpoints captial
>> offenses?
>
>===============================
>Phillips
>
>Yes, according to neo-Nazi filth like me.
CF:> Not to mention phony guys what pretend to be Jewish.
>=============================
>
>>
>>
>> >However, as an ostensibly mature adult,
>>
>> As you don't fall into this category you are in no position to comment on
>> those of us who do, Phillllllllllips.
>>
>> >you really ought to
>> >have sufficient discernment to perceive SOMETHING of Brown's character
and to realize that
>> >he is something considerably less than responsible; indeed, whether he
is even entitled to
>> >be CALLED an adult.
>>
>> And your evidence that Mr. Brown is of bad character is what exactly?
>> Remember that evidence-free accusations made by his detractors are
>> worthless.
>
>====================================
>Phillips
>
>Experience garnered in over two years on this NG and after seeing his
posts to a number that
>must run into the hundreds. IN view of what I have seen, certain
inferences are legitimate.
CF:>Yeah, phillips, we all know tha feeling. Your pointless posts give us
a good clue to your personality, or lack thereof.
>========================================
>
>>
>>
>> "Go home and worry about it."
>>
>> allan
>> --
>> ================================================================
>> allan_m...@bigfoot.com
>> ================================================================
>> "Some people just cannot be permitted to have the same rights"
>> ---> 'Richard G. Philllips'
>> ================================================================
>> http://www2.shore.net/~matthews/
>> ================================================================
--
Chuck Ferree
<rgph...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>Allan Matthews wrote:
>
>> In article <36DA6779...@mediaone.net>, rgph...@mediaone.net
>> says...
>> >> Allan Matthews wrote:
>> >> > We have only your word that you emigrated. You are a known liar,
so your
>> >> > word is particularly worthless.
>>
>> >May I ask whether you have any basis for that other than the postings
of Jeffrey Brown.
>>
>> Your own words clearly mark you as a liar. A number of people, myself
>> included, have pointed out your lies.
>
>=======================================
>Phillips
>
>Yes, it is certainly helpful to have a whole tribe of worshipful
sycophants always ready to
>say "Amen" to whatever you post. And, fighting alone as I must, it can
be a problme when five
>people --A,B,C,D,E-- come back at me, I reply to A,B,C,D only to have E
chime in with:
>"Phillips refuses to answer my question."
CF:>Well, phillips, that won't happen anymore. At a recent executive
meeting of Nizcompoops Inc, "E" was voted out of our organization. "A" was
appointed temporary third in command, while "D" is re-writing the By-Laws
in order to allow certain members to have two votes just because they are
Phds. If this major change comes about, I'm thinking of seeking membership
in "The Fat Broads" Organization, if they change their By-Laws to accept
males over 75.
This seems very complicated, phillips, but to ordinary folks it's simple.
>
>Now I would ask you again: what words of mine (repeat: of mine, not of
Jeffrey's) brand me as a
>liar.
CF:> As I said before: " Take your pick!"
>=================================================================
>
>>
>>
>> >Your politics is your own business.
>>
>> Not according to neo-Nazi filth like you.
>
>============================================
>Phillips
>
>Yes, according to neo-nazi filth like me.
>==============================================
>
>> Have you forgotten that your
>> heroes in the 3rd Reich made certain political viewpoints captial
>> offenses?
>
>=============================================
>Phillips
>
>Treason was certainly a capital offence, and certain political viewpoints
could get you in
>serious trouble. But, so far as I am aware, I don't believe anyone was
ever executed purely
>for his beliefs, imprisoned, certainly, but not ecxecuted. I could be
wrong about this; correct
>me if this is the case.
CF:> admitting that you "could be wrong" means that in your heart of
hearts, you *KNOW* you are always wrong.
>================================================
>
>>
>>
>> >However, as an ostensibly mature adult,
>>
>> As you don't fall into this category you are in no position to comment on
>> those of us who do, Phillllllllllips.
>
>==================================
>PHillips
>
>Since this seems to be the season for demanding each others' bonafides, I
hope you will not
>take it amiss if I tell you that you give me strong reason to wonder if
your name is really
>Matthews. I mean: was that the name that you, your father, and your
paternal grandfather were
>born to?
>
>I say this because you exhibit to a remarkable degree the reflexes of the
paranoid Jew. Such
>people demand rationality from all others BUT let their priceless belief
systems be challenged
>and they instantly begin lashing out in every direction at anything and
everything they
>possibly can.
>
>In sum, it is useless for you to pretend to be a reasonable individual
because you are not.
CF:> Looka who's making up fables (lies) same thing
>
>================================================================
>
>>
>>
>> >you really ought to
>> >have sufficient discernment to perceive SOMETHING of Brown's character
and to realize that
>> >he is something considerably less than responsible; indeed, whether he
is even entitled to
>> >be CALLED an adult.
>>
>> And your evidence that Mr. Brown is of bad character is what exactly?
>> Remember that evidence-free accusations made by his detractors are
>> worthless.
>>
Richard Phillips
Chuck Ferree wrote:
================================
PHillips
NO, it does not. It means I'm not sure.
=========================
Richard Phillips
Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
> Richard Phillips wrote in message <36DBD1A6...@mediaone.net>...
> >
> >
> >Yale, F., Edeiken wrote:
> >
> >> > Richard Phillips <rgph...@mediaone.net> writes:
> >>
> >> > Allan Matthews wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> > > Have you forgotten that your
> >> > > heroes in the 3rd Reich made certain political viewpoints captial
> >> > > offenses?
> >>
> >> > Treason was certainly a capital offence, and certain political
> viewpoints could get
> >> you in
> >> > serious trouble. But, so far as I am aware, I don't believe anyone
> was ever
> >> executed purely
> >> > for his beliefs, imprisoned, certainly, but not ecxecuted. I could be
> wrong about
> >> this; correct
> >> > me if this is the case.
> >>
> >> Start with Neimoller. Or, if you wish, consider this statement:
========================================
PHillips
I know that Neimoller was imprisoned. Was he also executed?
================================
>
> >>
> >> In the forefront, for the number and harshness of the
> >> treatment meted out to them, are the Polish priests. From 1940 to
> >> 1945, 2,800 Polish ecclesiatics and religious were imprisoned in
> >> that camp [Dachau]; among them was the Auxilliary Bishop of
> >> Wloclawek, who died there of typhus. In April last there were left
> >> only 816, all the others being dead except for two or three
> >> transferred to another camp. In the summer of 1942, 480 German-speaking
> ministers
> >> of religion were known to be gathered there
> >> [Dachau]; . . . Nor should we pass over in silence those belonging
> >> to occupied territories, Holland, Belgium. France (among whom the
> >> Bishop of Clermont), Luxembourg, Slovenia, Italy. Many of those
> >> priests and laymen endured indescribable sufferings for their faith
> >> and for their vocaion. In one case the hatred of the imious
> >> against Christ reached the point of parodying on the person of an
> >> interned priest with barbed wire, the scourging and the crowning
> >> with thorns of our Redeemer.
>
> >The question is: were people executed purely for their political beliefs.
> IMprisonment and
> >consequent suffering are not quite the same as execution.
>
> You pass over the example of Neimoller and I find your dismissal of the
> deaths of 2/3rds of those sent to Dachau as "consequent suffering" as
> evasive at best. The truth is that they were sent there with the express
> purpose of having them die for their religious beliefs.
======================================
Phillips
How do you know that.
==================
================================================
PHillips
I say what I'm about to say not for the purpose of apologizing for the Nazi
regime but rather to express my contempt for people who have made a religion
of eternally reviling a regime which
(a) ceased to exist 54 years ago
(b) was nothing like as harsh as the regime of our "gallant Soviet allies"
(c) was succeeded by postwar German governments which have done everything
within the power of living man to make amends for what happened or, more
precisely, what was alleged to have happened. In other words, say whatever you
damn please about the nazis but I do not feel that their grandchildren deserve
to be shat upon. And that is what you are doing - acknowledge it or not as you
wish. I might further add that, AS A JEW, I felt deep gratitude for the
postwar German governments that gave unstinting aid to israel, both military and
commercial.
As the war in Europe went on, victory for Germany appeared less and less likely
and soon it became a question of sheer survival. A government which was harsh to
begin with certainly will, under such circumstances, become paranoid. When a
country is backed against the wall, its ability to distinguish between
unorthodox opinion and out-and-out sedition lessens. And don't imagine such
measures were without parallel in the US and Britain. I allude to the fact that
the Churchill government interned several persons (Oswald Mosely among them) for
nothing more than having opposed Britain's entry into the war and I also allude
to the 1944 sedition trials in the US. I do not know what were the precise
charges but I suspesct the real ones were the hatred of Roosevelt and his
cohorts. Granted, we never executed anyone for that.
To sum up, the fact that Nazi Germany does not score high on your 'Democracy
Meter' is of small moment to me.
===================
yale_f._edeiken
> Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
> > Richard Phillips wrote in message <36DBD1A6...@mediaone.net>...
> > >Yale, F., Edeiken wrote:
> > >> > Treason was certainly a capital offence, and certain political
> > viewpoints could get
> > >> you in
> > >> > serious trouble. But, so far as I am aware, I don't believe anyone
> > was ever
> > >> executed purely
> > >> > for his beliefs, imprisoned, certainly, but not ecxecuted. I could be
> > wrong about
> > >> this; correct
> > >> > me if this is the case.
> > >> Start with Neimoller. Or, if you wish, consider this statement:
> I know that Neimoller was imprisoned. Was he also executed?
It is irrelevant whether he was killed or died as a result of the conditions
of his imprisonment meant to kill him.
> > >> In the forefront, for the number and harshness of the
> > >> treatment meted out to them, are the Polish priests. From 1940 to
> > >> 1945, 2,800 Polish ecclesiatics and religious were imprisoned in
> > >> that camp [Dachau]; among them was the Auxilliary Bishop of
> > >> Wloclawek, who died there of typhus. In April last there were left
> > >> only 816, all the others being dead except for two or three
> > >> transferred to another camp. In the summer of 1942, 480 German-speaking
> > ministers
> > >> of religion were known to be gathered there
> > >> [Dachau]; . . . Nor should we pass over in silence those belonging
> > >> to occupied territories, Holland, Belgium. France (among whom the
> > >> Bishop of Clermont), Luxembourg, Slovenia, Italy. Many of those
> > >> priests and laymen endured indescribable sufferings for their faith
> > >> and for their vocaion. In one case the hatred of the imious
> > >> against Christ reached the point of parodying on the person of an
> > >> interned priest with barbed wire, the scourging and the crowning
> > >> with thorns of our Redeemer.
> >
> > >The question is: were people executed purely for their political beliefs.
> > IMprisonment and
> > >consequent suffering are not quite the same as execution.
> > You pass over the example of Neimoller and I find your dismissal of the
> > deaths of 2/3rds of those sent to Dachau as "consequent suffering" as
> > evasive at best. The truth is that they were sent there with the express
> > purpose of having them die for their religious beliefs.
> How do you know that.
The directives of Himmler to the commander of Dachau instructing him to
give harsher treatment to imprisoned clerics.
> I say what I'm about to say not for the purpose of apologizing for the Nazi
> regime . . . . . .To sum up, the fact that Nazi Germany does not score high on
> your 'Democracy Meter' is of small moment to me.
To recap the bidding.
1. Liar Philllips made an fallacious claim about the nazis.
2. Liar Phillllips asked for for evidence that he was wrong.
3. The evidence was presented to Liar Philllips.
4. Liar Phillllips says he does not care.
Liar Philllips should be thanked for demonstrating that he has no respect
for the accuracy of the statements he makes.
Anthony Sabatini
>In <2XiC2.319$3%6.4...@news.total.net>, on Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:46:53
>-0500, "Anthony Sabatini" <nizkoo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Gord McFee wrote in message <36ddaf40...@news3.ibm.net>...
>> >In <jahC2.301$3%6.4...@news.total.net>, on Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:46:38
>> >-0500, "Anthony Sabatini" <nizkoo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Sorry for starting a new thread but I missed the reply,
>> >> likely due to the cursed forgeries that plague our
>> >> newsgroup. Gord's reply courtesy of Deja News.
>> >>
>> >> Gord McFee wrote:
>> >> > In <qUIA2.248$bZ4....@news.total.net>, on Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:40:57
>> >> > -0500, "Anthony Sabatini" <nizkoo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > > Gord McFee wrote in message <36d365c0...@news3.ibm.net>...
[snipped for brevity]
[To Richard Phillips:]
>> >> > > >And therein lies your double standard. Mr
>> >> > > >Ferree makes certain claims about his past.
>> >> > > >You consider them to have significance, so
>> >> > > >you demand proof of those claims.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Not quite. The old bigot Ferree's claims *are*
>> >> > > presented -- by _him_ no less! -- as having
>> >> > > relevance here in that he claims to have "been
>> >> > > there" and witnessed much. He presents himself
>> >> > > as a witness, his tales as testimony. Of course,
>> >> > > he hasn't been able to provide a single shred
>> >> > > of evidence for the least of his claims, but that's
>> >> > > another story.
>> >> >
>> >> > Yes, quite. Phillips introduced his Jewishness into
>> >> > the newsgroup. If Phillips demands that Chuck
>> >> > post documents to prove his background, a similar
>> >> > demand to Phillips is quite valid. You wouldn't
>> >> > want a double standard, now would you Anthony?
>> >>
>> >> No, I don't, but I think you misunderstood what I said.
>> >> My reply was in response to your "You consider them
>> >> to have significance, so you demand proof of those
>> >> claims." I was saying that since Chuck presents himself
>> >> as a witness to the events under discussion, his
>> >> credentials *are* of "significance". I have no problem
>> >> with anyone asking for Richard's, although I fail to see
>> >> the connection between him and the Nazi holocaust.
>> >
>> >You fail to see the connection between a person who
>> >says he is a Jew, yet excoriates Jews at every step of
>> >the way and has said publicly several times, that he
>> >has no problem with the Nazis murdering millions of
>> >Jews?
>>
>> No, that is not what I said. Again: I fail to see the
>> connection between Richard's 'Jewishness' and Chuck's
>> claim of being an eyewitness to the events under
>> discussion here. The latter bears direct "significance"
>> -- your word -- to the newsgroup while the former is
>> trivia at best.
>
>The connection is that some people don't believe their
>claims. To be precise, Mr Phillips has said he may not
>believe Chuck's claim and has demanded proof. I and
>others have said that we don't believe Mr Phillips' claim
>and have demanded proof. The connection is their
>credibility in the newsgroup. If it is "fair" to demand
>proof from Chuck, it is equally fair (or perhaps equally
>unfair) to demand proof from Mr Phillips. Chuck's posts
>take on a whole new light if it is shown that his claims
>are untrue. So do Mr Phillips' claims.
*sigh* Let's just skip this bit, OK?
>But in fact, all of this is silly, isn't it?
It's getting there. ;-)
>> >I have to assume you missed those threads because
>> >the only other possibility is that you are deliberately
>> >talking like an ass.
>>
>> I don't understand the hostile tone of your post, but
>> for now I'm willing to chalk it up to a bad day.
>
>Talking like an ass doesn't mean you are an ass. Hostile
>implication withdrawn.
OK. Thin skin on my part toughened a wee bit. :-)
[Gord to Richard:]
>> >> > > >You make certain claims about yourself, in
>> >> > > >particular that you are Jewish. Since there
>> >> > > >are extremely few Jews who hold antisemitic
>> >> > > >and racist views similar to yours,
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Unsubstaniated opinion.
>> >> >
>> >> > Name me a few antisemitic Jews.
>> >>
>> >> OK. Here are some Jews who have been smeared
>> >> with the incredibly lame (and boring!) "anti-Semite"
>> >> (tm) and/or "self-hating Jew" epithets along with a
>> >> link to start interested researchers.
>> >
>> >I know this game.
>>
>> No game; I'm very serious.
>
>I am sure you are. You said, "smeared with the incredibly
>lame...". I asked for antisemitic Jews, not Jews who had
>been accused by others of being antisemitic.
So who, then, is the final authority on who is or isn't an "anti-Semite"?
Typically when someone accuses another of being one it is generally left at
that after some (varying) amount of protest from the accused. Who or what
determines whether the latter is or isn't an "anti-Semite"?
>> >First you invent your own definition of antisemitism
>>
>> Nyet. Just for fun, though, please provide a definition
>> of "anti-Semitism" we can both use as a common point
>> of reference for the purpose of this discussion.
>
>The one in the dictionary. You are claiming that anyone
>who says something bad about *any* Jew is antisemitic.
No, I've given examples of people who have been called "anti-Semitic",
usually by other Jews.
>That is not what the word means. (I assume that is why
>you add the TM.)
I add the (tm) symbol to indicate the laughable nature of that epithet. As I
said before, unchecked use of the term has diluted to a point of silliness.
Do you disagree?
>One dictionary defines antisemitism as "prejudice or
>discrimination against, or intolerance of Jews, Jewish
>culture". Work for you?
I'd say it 'rocks my boat' but some people here -- who shall remain
nameless! -- would probably get all hot and bothered. ;-)
>> >and then say that any Jew ever labeled an
>> >antisemite is an antisemitic Jew. Pretty lame,
>> >even if the sources below were examples of
>> >antisemitic Jews, which they are not.
>>
>> They weren't necessarily provided as "exmples of
>> [anti-Semitism]" per se. I clearly said: "link[s] to
>> ***start*** interested researchers." (Emphasis
>> added now.)
>
>Fair enough, but they are therefore irrelevant and
>you still haven't provided an example of an antisemitic
>Jew, which after all was my request.
*sigh* Let's see (below).
>> >> 1. David Cole
>> >> http://www.codoh.com/gcgv/gc46-ORIGI.HTML
>> >
>> >So? That makes him antisemitic? Idiotic, I grant, you,
>> >but antisemitic?
>>
>> He 'denies' [sic] (denied?) the Nazi holocaust. Apparently
>> that is ground for the stupid "anti-Semite" (tm) label. Am
>> I wrong?
>
>Yes, I hope so. Denying the Holocaust doesn't automatically
>make one antisemitic,
Er...um...er. I don't know. Honestly. I and others here have been repeatedly
told -- granted not in so many words -- that is indeed the case. How shall
we settle the matter of whether David Cole is (was?) an anti-Semite or not?
Is there some authority we can turn to (as per my question at the top) or
shall we hold an ad hoc vote of some kind?
>although a lot of deniers are antisemitic, and that is why
>they deny the Holocaust.
Not relevant to the point being discussed here. Nice try, though. :-)
>> >> 2. Israel Shahak
>> >> http://www.codoh.com/zionweb/zishahak/zishahakan01.html
>> >
>> >Where in that long, boring tract does he say he is
>> >antisemitic?
>>
>> He is clearly anti-Zionist, yes? Who was it that said
>> 'scratch and anti-Zionist and you'll find an anti-Semite'
>> (or something along those lines)?
>
>I don't know, but one can be antisemitic and still oppose
>Zionism.
I assume you meant _support_ Zionism here; otherwise I don't know what you
mean.
Either way, a quick search at Deja News revealed this interesting little
tidbit from none other than everyone's favorite acerbic Jewish supremacist,
Hilary Ostrov:
< begin quote >
>> So you say ... however, as Martin Luther King, Jr. noted
>> in 1967:
>>
>> <begin>
>>
>> "The anti-semite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his
>> malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West,
>> to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews.
>>
>> This being the case, the anti-semite must constantly seek
>> new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel
>> in the new masquerade. He does not hate Jews, he is just
>> 'anti-Zionist'."
>>
>> <end>
< end quote >
Source: 1997/11/15 article <346e0348...@news.uniserve.com>, titled
"Re: Hockey Night in Canada (was: Kristallnacht in Canada?)", starring
Hilary, myself and a few others with a special guest appearance by none
other than the inimitable Gord McFee! ;-)
Gee, looks like nearly *anyone* can now be a bone fide anti-Semite (tm)!
What say, Gord?
>> >> 3. Norman Finkelstein
>> >> http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/
>> >
>> >Who slam dunks Goldhagen. How does that make him
>> >an antisemitic Jew?
>>
>> He has been called such by his opponents.
>
>Perhaps, but they are wrong. Criticizing a Jew doesn't make
>you antisemitic.
Tell it to the Jews who called Finkelstein an anti-Semite.
>I have criticized Goldhagen extensively, and I am always
>accused of being a Jewish lickspittle.
In case anybody gives a damn, for the record I hereby state that Gord McFee
is not nor has ever been, to the best of my knowledge, a "Jewish
lickspittle". (And no, I'm not being sarcastic or anything.)
>Richard Green and Danny Mittleman have criticized
>Goldhagen and they are both Jewish AFAIK.
>
>> >> 4. Victor Ostrovsky
>> >> http://www2.southwind.net/~amfirst/ostrovsk.htm
>> >
>> >A former Mossad operative who dumps on the Mossad.
>> >Antisemitic?
>>
>> You tell me.
>
>You used him as an example.
His former handlers accused him of being a threat to Israel and, by
extension, Jews. IIRC, the same idiot who flew from Israel to Canada to
publicly offer a bounty on Ostrovsky's head (on national Canadian
television, no less!) called him an anti-Semite. So is he or isn't he?
>> >> 5. Harold Wallace Rosenthal
>> >> http://www2.southwind.net/~amfirst/rosenthl.htm
>> >
>> >An interview (not quoted), conducted "sometime" in the
>> >1970s? That's *really* good "evidence", Anthony.
>>
>> It is a good starting point, just as I said.
>
>I don't see why.
I fail to see why you, a person with a history degree, doesn't find the link
useful for starting to do research on the subject. In any case...
>> >> 6. Benjamin H. Freedman
>> >> http://www2.southwind.net/~amfirst/freedman.htm
>> >
>> >Didn't he convert to Catholicism?
>>
>> Yup. Does that mean he's not a Jew? Please be
>> clear.
>
>Yes. Is that clear?
Whoa! "Yes" he is no longer a Jew? Does that mean Yale and Ganymede, both
avowed atheists (agnostics at best) aren't Jews? I should think they would
beg to differ. Being Jewish is neither religious nor racial because an
atheist is still a Jew and an Indian convert to Judaism is also a Jew.
Therefore, I believe being Jewish is a tribal affair. Thus, even though
Freedman is a Catholic he is still a Jew. So is he an anti-Semite (tm) or
not?
>> >> 7. Richard Phillips
>> >>
>> >> http://www.dejanews.com/[ST_rn=qs]/dnquery.xp?QRY
>> >> =%7Ea+%28rgp...@mediaone.net)
>> >>
>> >> I trust this list will suffice for now?
>> >
>> >No, since you haven't done what I requested. I see
>> >no evidence that any of those persons is an antisemitic
>> >Jew,
>>
>> I have indeed provided "evidence"; please remember
>> that absolute proofs are for mathematics. You are simply
>> scoffing with a wave of your hand.
>
>No, I am merely asking for something and you haven't
>provided it.
I contend I have. There are seven links above. That is evidence.
>> >nor even any evidence that Phillips is a Jew.
>>
>> True.
>>
>> >And isn't that the point behind requesting his
>> >credentials?
>> >
>> >> > > There are many who consider most Israelis,
>> >> > > the vast majority of whom are Jews, to be
>> >> > > extremely "racist". As for "anti-Semitic" (tm),
>> >> >
>> >> > Why the sneer (tm), Anthony? It is a legitimate
>> >> > word.
>> >>
>> >> Correction: it _used to be_ a "legitimate word";
>> >> the term has since been diluted by ridiculous
>> >> overuse, it's acceptable scope obfuscated to mean
>> >> everything and nothing. Joseph Sobran explains
>> >> it fairly well:
>> >>
>> >> < begin quote >
>> >>
>> >> It's pointless to ask what "anti-Semitic" means. It
>> >> means trouble. It's an attack signal. The practical
>> >> function of the word is not to define or distinguish
>> >> things, but to conflate them indiscriminately - to
>> >> equate the soberest criticism of Israel or Jewish
>> >> power with the murderous hatred of Jews. And it
>> >> works. Oh, how it works.
>> >>
>> >> When Joe McCarthy accused people of being
>> >> Communists, the charge was relatively precise.
>> >> You knew what he meant. The accusation could
>> >> be falsified. In fact the burden of proof was on
>> >> the accuser: when McCarthy couldn't make his
>> >> loose charges stick, he was ruined. (Of course,
>> >> McCarthy was hated less for his "loose" charges
>> >> than for his accurate ones. His real offense was
>> >> stigmatizing the Left.)
>> >>
>> >> The opposite applies to charges of "anti-Semitism."
>> >> The word has no precise definition. An "anti-Semite"
>> >> may or may not hate Jews. But he is certainly
>> >> hated by Jews. There is no penalty for making the
>> >> charge loosely; the accused has no way of falsifying
>> >> the charge, since it isn't defined.
>> >
>> >Ah, so this is your game. Invent an arbitrary definition
>> >and argue from it.
>>
>> I "invent[ed]" nothing; I presented my beliefs based on
>> my experiences.
>
>Your beliefs are yours to do with as you wish, Anthony,
>but you shouldn't present them as definitions. They are
>opinions.
Yes and no. Yes, they are my opinions. As for "definition", it was not
intended as such; a dictionary would suffice for such a trivial matter.
Rather, Sobran truthfully states the _workings_ of the word in real-world
usage.
>> >Still throwing the Sobran quote around, are you?
>>
>> Still. Tell me, does the passage of time invalidate his
>> description/interpretation? I notice that you hae failed
>> to rebut what he says. Cripes, you didn't even *try*!
>
>I have done it before and others have as well.
I cannot recall a single instance of reading your comments on the quote. Can
you please provide some context (keywords or a title, perhaps) that will
enable me to find it at Deja News? TIA. As for others, I remember David
Gehrig babbling on about it, but he only presented a textbook example of the
ad hominem debating tactic: all he did was go on and on about how Sobran was
a -- you guessed it! -- "anti-Semite" (tm); in no shape or manner did he
actually rebut a single point/argument raised by Sobran. As such, I'm afraid
it doesn't count.
>I see no need to go through that again.
I think it's important to the point(s) being discussed here in this thread.
>> >I thought your time off would have matured you a
>> >bit, but I was obviously mistaken.
>>
>> I'll ignore this particular bit of flame-bait for now.
>
>No flamebait intended. An ellipse. I meant "matured
>your debating technique".
Um...yeah. OK. ;-)
>> >[deleted]
>> >
>> >> > > it strikes many rather odd that there exists
>> >> > > quite a number of 'self-hating Jews' (described
>> >> > > as such by other Jews).
>> >> >
>> >> > That doesn't make them antisemitic. Look up
>> >> > the word.
>> >>
>> >> Bullshit. A "self-hating Jew" means a Jew who
>> >> despises what he or she is; i.e., a Jew. If you don't
>> >> like Jews or 'Jewishness' then you are an "anti-Semite"
>> >> (tm). Please cut the crap, Gord.
>> >
>> >The only crap here is yours. A Jew can hate himself;
>> >that doesn't make him antisemitic.
>>
>> A "self-hating Jew" apparently hates himself _because_
>> he is a Jew.
>
>No, a self-hating Jew could hate himself for a million
>reasons.
But that would make him a simple "self-hater", Jew or not. A "self-hating
*Jew*" despises the very fact that he is a Jew because he sees something
wrong with that. Surely that is a clear case of "prejudice or discrimination
against, or intolerance of Jews, Jewish culture" as per your own definition
(see top of message)!
>And even if he hated himself because he was a Jew would
>not make him antisemitic.
Of course it would; that's the whole point of being a "self-hating *Jew*" as
opposed to a "self-hating *person*".
>> This indicates a prejuice towards Jews, which makes his or
>> her "anti-Semitic" (tm). Am I wrong?
>
>Yes.
No, I think you're totally wrong on this one. Waaay off!
>> If so, please explain.
>
>Because hating a specific Jew does not mean you hate Jews
>in general which is the basic definition of antisemitism.
No, this makes no sense.
[mutually agreed upon material snipped, along with .sig]
---
Help support Canada and its culture:
http://www.billc55.com/
Jeffrey G. Brown
<rgph...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>Allan Matthews wrote:
> [...deletia...]
>> A quick comparison of your first two posts shows this claim is not true.
>> It is, therefore, a lie and you, Mr. Philllllllllips, are thus a proven
>> liar. More than one person pointed this out at the time and more than
>> one person regularly reminds you of it currently.
>
>=========================================
>Phillips
>
>In other words, you have nothing except Brown's fabricated case.
Cite the "fabricated" portion of the evidence, Liar.
> [...deletia...]
>Oh no, you people way. he REAL issue is that Phillips changed his
>demands.
Who has made that statement, Liar?
> [...deletia...]
>In the case of the UL label, I confess to having been slow on the update. Not s
>quite the same thing a being a loonie or wacko - as I'm sure you will agree.
I do agree. You're not crazy, Liar. You're just a dedicated Jew-hater, who
will believe anything at all as long as it appears to cast Jews in a bad
light.
JGB
DeppityBob
>
> Alan Zelt wrote:
> >
> > Mimi Hiller wrote:
> > >
> > > Myra Shinkman wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Mimi Hiller <mi...@nospam.cyber-kitchen.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Re my making kasha varneshkas:
> > > >
> > > > : That does it...I'm coming, too! Better double that recipe, Myra!
> > > >
> > > > You can picture me on that Grayhound bus - overnight bag packed with
> > > > Wolffe's kasha and a box of matzoh farfel! <g>
> > > >
> > > > I hope you like your kasha with lots of onions and black pepper....
> > >
> > > Do you add schmaltz?
> > >
> > > Stop! I'm drooling on my keyboard.
> > >
> > > regards,
> > > -- Mimi (to reply, delete "nospam" from email address)
> > > _____________________________________________________________
> > >
> > > Mimi Hiller (mi...@cyber-kitchen.com) Visit Mimi's Cyber Kitchen!
> > > http://www.cyber-kitchen.com/ . The most comprehensive food-related site
> > > has a new look and easier to use. Enter our grand reopening contest!
> >
> > let me see. my last trip to the Apple included a stop at Citarella's.
> > believe i still have two cans of schmaltz in the freezer.
> > --
> > alan
> >
>
> No, no Alan, you got it wrong. True schmaltz needs to be done at home
> from fresh pork fat. A store bought doesn't count. You better run now to
> a market and get a side of a pig or you won't be ready in May.
> Myra, make clear to him, that you won't accept an ersatz schmaltz.
>
> Monika
yuck on you, too!! pork schmaltz? no way. made with chicken fat, some
onion or garlic thrown in, a little water, and on low heat until melted.
didn't they have chickens in poland?
--
alan
"If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and
avoid the
people, you might better stay home."
--James Michener
Eliminate FINNFAN on reply.
DeppityBob
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DeppityBob
okt...@aol.comremoveit (Ok TR6R) wrote:
>
> In article <7bg7ot$9i4$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Bresser wrote:
>
> > okt...@aol.comremoveit (Ok TR6R) wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <7bb9sp$8h3$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Bresser wrote:
> >>
> >> > okt...@aol.comremoveit (Ok TR6R) wrote:
> >> >> Kat wrote_
> >> >>
> >> >> >Motley wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> rain sucks
> >> >> >
> >> >> >How about 2 more...
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Winter sucks!!!
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Kat...
> >> >> ><Meow...>
> >> >>
> >> >> Can I throw a few words in?
> >> >>
> >> >> A bike scattered all over the garage and mid 60 deg. F. weekends
sucks...
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Les "oktr6r"
> >> >> '70 Triumph (Cutting, welding, grinding...)
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Being in Saudi Arabia during bike week. That really sucks. I can't even
> >> >drown
> >> >my sorrows in beer.
> >> >Later,
> >> >Arie
> >>
> >> Yeah, that does have to suck. I believe I'd rather have the scattered
> >bike.
> >> I guess you'll have a little catching up to do when you get home... <G>
> >>
> >> Later,
> >> --
> >> Les "oktr6r"
> >> '70 Triumph (Cutting, welding, grinding...)
> >
> >Yeah, I plan on doin' some serious ridin' when I get back. And I might
> >even
> >have a beer or two.
>
> Rumor has it that it may be the other way around... Some serious beer and
maybe
> a ride or two... <BG>
>
> Later,
> --
> Les "oktr6r"
> '70 Triumph (Cutting, welding, grinding...)
> **
> TOMKAT e-mail list
> http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/rmh_tomkat
> **
> Check out our bikes: (Under construction)
> http://members.aol.com/oktr6r/members_rides/thumbnails/preview.html
>
Yeah, I see you read the Liefest reports. Although the amount of beer that I
consumed that weekend was greatly exagerated. It was only one or two. Really.
Later,
Arie
WW1LFS#3
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
DeppityBob
Tell you what, then, Phillips: how about I bring up the whole "DeppityBob won't
post his real name!" debacle you instigated. SURELY you remember that. I still
have the proof that you lied brazenly and openly there. Are you game? I can
open THAT old wound VERY wide.
Dep
"Always tell the truth. It's the easiest thing to remember."
--David Mamet
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Like short haired women? Snotty comments? Penguins?
http://members.aol.com/deppitybob/shlu/PAGEONE.html
DeppityBob
>>
>>Yes, it is certainly helpful to have a whole tribe of worshipful
>sycophants always ready to
>>say "Amen" to whatever you post. And, fighting alone as I must, it can
>be a problme when five
>>people --A,B,C,D,E-- come back at me, I reply to A,B,C,D only to have E
>chime in with:
>>"Phillips refuses to answer my question."
>
>CF:>Well, phillips, that won't happen anymore. At a recent executive
>meeting of Nizcompoops Inc, "E" was voted out of our organization. "A" was
>appointed temporary third in command, while "D" is re-writing the By-Laws
>in order to allow certain members to have two votes just because they are
>Phds. If this major change comes about, I'm thinking of seeking membership
>in "The Fat Broads" Organization, if they change their By-Laws to accept
>males over 75.
>This seems very complicated, phillips, but to ordinary folks it's simple.
ROFL!!!!
Richard Phillips
Jeffrey G. Brown wrote:
> In article <36DBBC53...@mediaone.net>, Liar Philllips
> <rgph...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
> >Allan Matthews wrote:
>
> > [...deletia...]
>
> >> A quick comparison of your first two posts shows this claim is not true.
> >> It is, therefore, a lie and you, Mr. Philllllllllips, are thus a proven
> >> liar. More than one person pointed this out at the time and more than
> >> one person regularly reminds you of it currently.
> >
> >=========================================
> >Phillips
> >
> >In other words, you have nothing except Brown's fabricated case.
>
> Cite the "fabricated" portion of the evidence, Liar.
>
> > [...deletia...]
>
> >Oh no, you people way. he REAL issue is that Phillips changed his
> >demands.
>
> Who has made that statement, Liar?
>
> > [...deletia...]
>
> >In the case of the UL label, I confess to having been slow on the update. Not s
> >quite the same thing a being a loonie or wacko - as I'm sure you will agree.
>
> I do agree. You're not crazy, Liar. You're just a dedicated Jew-hater, who
> will believe anything at all as long as it appears to cast Jews in a bad
> light.
>
> JGB
===============================================
Phillips
Jeffrey is back with us, seething with righteous indignation, as usual.
As I have stated several times, I feel he should hold off rejoining us until he has
started on his pubic hair. Of course, I am perfectly willing to accept in lieu of
that a doctor's statement that he is incapable of growing any.
==============================================
Yale F. Edeiken
Anthony Sabatini, the enemy of free speech, lies again:
>Gord McFee wrote in message <36e10690...@news3.ibm.net>...
>>In <2XiC2.319$3%6.4...@news.total.net>, on Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:46:53
>>-0500, "Anthony Sabatini" <nizkoo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> Gord McFee wrote in message <36ddaf40...@news3.ibm.net>...
>>> >In <jahC2.301$3%6.4...@news.total.net>, on Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:46:38
>>> >-0500, "Anthony Sabatini" <nizkoo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I add the (tm) symbol to indicate the laughable nature of that epithet. As
I
>said before, unchecked use of the term has diluted to a point of silliness.
>Do you disagree?
Yes. But then the Conference of American Bishops describes your
writings as anti-Semitic.
>Either way, a quick search at Deja News revealed this interesting little
>tidbit from none other than everyone's favorite acerbic Jewish supremacist,
>Hilary Ostrov:
>< begin quote >
>>> So you say ... however, as Martin Luther King, Jr. noted
>>> in 1967:
>>>
>>> <begin>
>>>
>>> "The anti-semite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his
>>> malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West,
>>> to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews.
>>>
>>> This being the case, the anti-semite must constantly seek
>>> new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel
>>> in the new masquerade. He does not hate Jews, he is just
>>> 'anti-Zionist'."
>>>
>>> <end>
>
>< end quote >
>Source: 1997/11/15 article <346e0348...@news.uniserve.com>, titled
>"Re: Hockey Night in Canada (was: Kristallnacht in Canada?)", starring
>Hilary, myself and a few others with a special guest appearance by none
>other than the inimitable Gord McFee! ;-)
>Gee, looks like nearly *anyone* can now be a bone fide anti-Semite (tm)!
>What say, Gord?
That you are a bona fide anti-Semite.
>>> >> 6. Benjamin H. Freedman
>>> >> http://www2.southwind.net/~amfirst/freedman.htm
>>> >
>>> >Didn't he convert to Catholicism?
>>>
>>> Yup. Does that mean he's not a Jew? Please be
>>> clear.
>>Yes. Is that clear?
>Whoa! "Yes" he is no longer a Jew? Does that mean Yale and Ganymede, both
>avowed atheists (agnostics at best) aren't Jews? I should think they would
>beg to differ.
I certainly do. Your statement is a figment of your imagination. I am
neither an atheist or agnostic and I have never represented myself as
either. I am, to my pleasure, a practicing Jew and I resent your dishonest
slur.
> Being Jewish is neither religious nor racial because an
>atheist is still a Jew and an Indian convert to Judaism is also a Jew.
>Therefore, I believe being Jewish is a tribal affair. Thus, even though
>Freedman is a Catholic he is still a Jew. So is he an anti-Semite (tm) or
>not?
Although some disagree, Freedman is no more a Jew than is Pope John Paul
II (the man you called a "braindead moron")
>>> >> Correction: it _used to be_ a "legitimate word";
>>> >> the term has since been diluted by ridiculous
>>> >> overuse, it's acceptable scope obfuscated to mean
>>> >> everything and nothing. Joseph Sobran explains
>>> >> it fairly well:
The enemy of freedom of the press neglects to point out that William
Buckley, Jr., a close friend and admirer of Sobran's, was the one who
asserted that Sobran was an anti-Semite and refused to print his columns
because of his "obsession."
\>Yes and no. Yes, they are my opinions. As for "definition", it was not
>intended as such; a dictionary would suffice for such a trivial matter.
>Rather, Sobran truthfully states the _workings_ of the word in real-world
>usage.
More of "Sabatini's" nonsense. Sobran was trying to justify the fact
that even his friends knew he was a anti-Semite and said so publically.
>>> >Still throwing the Sobran quote around, are you?
>>> Still. Tell me, does the passage of time invalidate his
>>> description/interpretation? I notice that you hae failed
>>> to rebut what he says. Cripes, you didn't even *try*!
>>I have done it before and others have as well.
>I cannot recall a single instance of reading your comments on the quote.
Can
>you please provide some context (keywords or a title, perhaps) that will
>enable me to find it at Deja News?
But, since you recall statements that were never made, your memory is
for shit.
> TIA. As for others, I remember David
>Gehrig babbling on about it, but he only presented a textbook example of
the
>ad hominem debating tactic: all he did was go on and on about how Sobran
was
>a -- you guessed it! -- "anti-Semite" (tm); in no shape or manner did he
>actually rebut a single point/argument raised by Sobran. As such, I'm
afraid
>it doesn't count.
Which is unneeded. There is a lengthy discussion of Sobran and his
"obsession" in Buckley's "In Search of Anti-Semitism."
Yale F. Edeiken
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Gord McFee
-0500, "Anthony Sabatini" <nizkoo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Gord McFee wrote in message <36e10690...@news3.ibm.net>...
> >In <2XiC2.319$3%6.4...@news.total.net>, on Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:46:53
> >-0500, "Anthony Sabatini" <nizkoo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Gord McFee wrote in message <36ddaf40...@news3.ibm.net>...
> >> >In <jahC2.301$3%6.4...@news.total.net>, on Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:46:38
> >> >-0500, "Anthony Sabatini" <nizkoo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[deleted]
> >> No, that is not what I said. Again: I fail to see the
> >> connection between Richard's 'Jewishness' and Chuck's
> >> claim of being an eyewitness to the events under
> >> discussion here. The latter bears direct "significance"
> >> -- your word -- to the newsgroup while the former is
> >> trivia at best.
> >
> >The connection is that some people don't believe their
> >claims. To be precise, Mr Phillips has said he may not
> >believe Chuck's claim and has demanded proof. I and
> >others have said that we don't believe Mr Phillips' claim
> >and have demanded proof. The connection is their
> >credibility in the newsgroup. If it is "fair" to demand
> >proof from Chuck, it is equally fair (or perhaps equally
> >unfair) to demand proof from Mr Phillips. Chuck's posts
> >take on a whole new light if it is shown that his claims
> >are untrue. So do Mr Phillips' claims.
>
> *sigh* Let's just skip this bit, OK?
Why? Did I getcha?
> >But in fact, all of this is silly, isn't it?
>
> It's getting there. ;-)
It always has been.
[deleted]
> [Gord to Richard:]
> >> >> > > >You make certain claims about yourself, in
> >> >> > > >particular that you are Jewish. Since there
> >> >> > > >are extremely few Jews who hold antisemitic
> >> >> > > >and racist views similar to yours,
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Unsubstaniated opinion.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Name me a few antisemitic Jews.
> >> >>
> >> >> OK. Here are some Jews who have been smeared
> >> >> with the incredibly lame (and boring!) "anti-Semite"
> >> >> (tm) and/or "self-hating Jew" epithets along with a
> >> >> link to start interested researchers.
> >> >
> >> >I know this game.
> >>
> >> No game; I'm very serious.
> >
> >I am sure you are. You said, "smeared with the incredibly
> >lame...". I asked for antisemitic Jews, not Jews who had
> >been accused by others of being antisemitic.
>
> So who, then, is the final authority on who is or isn't an "anti-Semite"?
That is not the point. I asked for some antisemitic Jews. That someone
has been "smeared with the label" doesn't mean they meet the definition.
If you choose you impose your own arbitrary definition, which is your
right, we are wasting our time here. If you define terms any way you
want, then you can prove anything you want. I don't play that game.
> Typically when someone accuses another of being one it is generally left at
> that after some (varying) amount of protest from the accused. Who or what
> determines whether the latter is or isn't an "anti-Semite"?
>
> >> >First you invent your own definition of antisemitism
> >>
> >> Nyet. Just for fun, though, please provide a definition
> >> of "anti-Semitism" we can both use as a common point
> >> of reference for the purpose of this discussion.
> >
> >The one in the dictionary. You are claiming that anyone
> >who says something bad about *any* Jew is antisemitic.
>
> No, I've given examples of people who have been called "anti-Semitic",
> usually by other Jews.
>
> >That is not what the word means. (I assume that is why
> >you add the TM.)
>
> I add the (tm) symbol to indicate the laughable nature of that epithet. As I
> said before, unchecked use of the term has diluted to a point of silliness.
> Do you disagree?
I think the (tm) stuff comes across silly and provocative.
> >One dictionary defines antisemitism as "prejudice or
> >discrimination against, or intolerance of Jews, Jewish
> >culture". Work for you?
>
> I'd say it 'rocks my boat' but some people here -- who shall remain
> nameless! -- would probably get all hot and bothered. ;-)
Remember now, you agreed with the definition. See below.
> >> >and then say that any Jew ever labeled an
> >> >antisemite is an antisemitic Jew. Pretty lame,
> >> >even if the sources below were examples of
> >> >antisemitic Jews, which they are not.
> >>
> >> They weren't necessarily provided as "exmples of
> >> [anti-Semitism]" per se. I clearly said: "link[s] to
> >> ***start*** interested researchers." (Emphasis
> >> added now.)
> >
> >Fair enough, but they are therefore irrelevant and
> >you still haven't provided an example of an antisemitic
> >Jew, which after all was my request.
>
>
> *sigh* Let's see (below).
You would have been better not to.
> >> >> 1. David Cole
> >> >> http://www.codoh.com/gcgv/gc46-ORIGI.HTML
> >> >
> >> >So? That makes him antisemitic? Idiotic, I grant, you,
> >> >but antisemitic?
> >>
> >> He 'denies' [sic] (denied?) the Nazi holocaust. Apparently
> >> that is ground for the stupid "anti-Semite" (tm) label. Am
> >> I wrong?
> >
> >Yes, I hope so. Denying the Holocaust doesn't automatically
> >make one antisemitic,
>
> Er...um...er. I don't know. Honestly.
Why would it make one an antisemite _automatically_?
> I and others here have been repeatedly
> told -- granted not in so many words -- that is indeed the case. How shall
> we settle the matter of whether David Cole is (was?) an anti-Semite or not?
> Is there some authority we can turn to (as per my question at the top) or
> shall we hold an ad hoc vote of some kind?
You have already agreed with the dictionary definition above. What is
there about Cole that meets that definition?
> >although a lot of deniers are antisemitic, and that is why
> >they deny the Holocaust.
>
> Not relevant to the point being discussed here. Nice try, though. :-)
I didn't say it was.
> >> >> 2. Israel Shahak
> >> >> http://www.codoh.com/zionweb/zishahak/zishahakan01.html
> >> >
> >> >Where in that long, boring tract does he say he is
> >> >antisemitic?
> >>
> >> He is clearly anti-Zionist, yes? Who was it that said
> >> 'scratch and anti-Zionist and you'll find an anti-Semite'
> >> (or something along those lines)?
> >
> >I don't know, but one can be antisemitic and still oppose
> >Zionism.
>
> I assume you meant _support_ Zionism here; otherwise I don't know what you
> mean.
No, I was trying to say that one can oppose Zionism and not be
antisemitic.
> Either way, a quick search at Deja News revealed this interesting little
> tidbit from none other than everyone's favorite acerbic Jewish supremacist,
> Hilary Ostrov:
>
> < begin quote >
>
> >> So you say ... however, as Martin Luther King, Jr. noted
> >> in 1967:
> >>
> >> <begin>
> >>
> >> "The anti-semite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his
> >> malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West,
> >> to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews.
> >>
> >> This being the case, the anti-semite must constantly seek
> >> new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel
> >> in the new masquerade. He does not hate Jews, he is just
> >> 'anti-Zionist'."
> >>
> >> <end>
>
> < end quote >
Dr. King is talking about a masquerade - a person saying they are not
antisemitic (but really is), and tries to hide it by saying they are
merely anti-Zionist. He does not say that the two are the same thing.
> Source: 1997/11/15 article <346e0348...@news.uniserve.com>, titled
> "Re: Hockey Night in Canada (was: Kristallnacht in Canada?)", starring
> Hilary, myself and a few others with a special guest appearance by none
> other than the inimitable Gord McFee! ;-)
Yeehah!
> Gee, looks like nearly *anyone* can now be a bone fide anti-Semite (tm)!
> What say, Gord?
I say you misinterpreted Dr. King's quotation.
> >> >> 3. Norman Finkelstein
> >> >> http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/
> >> >
> >> >Who slam dunks Goldhagen. How does that make him
> >> >an antisemitic Jew?
> >>
> >> He has been called such by his opponents.
> >
> >Perhaps, but they are wrong. Criticizing a Jew doesn't make
> >you antisemitic.
>
> Tell it to the Jews who called Finkelstein an anti-Semite.
Slam dunking _a_ Jew does not necessarily make one antisemitic. I may
think that Pope Pius VI was the biggest clown who ever lived, but that
does not make me anti-Catholic or anti-Italian. Seer the definition
above, which you agreed with.
> >I have criticized Goldhagen extensively, and I am always
> >accused of being a Jewish lickspittle.
>
> In case anybody gives a damn, for the record I hereby state that Gord McFee
> is not nor has ever been, to the best of my knowledge, a "Jewish
> lickspittle". (And no, I'm not being sarcastic or anything.)
I chose my words poorly. You have never accused me of that. I have
been accused of being a Jewish lackey, but not by you. But there's the
rub. There is a person whom I dislike who is Jewish. But I don't
dislike him _because_ he is Jewish; I dislike him because I think he is
an asshole (and I might add, he reciprocates). Does that make me
antisemitic? I think not.
My point though was that criticizing Goldhagen, hating Goldhagen's guts,
does not make a person antisemitic. See the definition above, which you
agreed with.
> >Richard Green and Danny Mittleman have criticized
> >Goldhagen and they are both Jewish AFAIK.
Hmmm....? :-)
> >> >> 4. Victor Ostrovsky
> >> >> http://www2.southwind.net/~amfirst/ostrovsk.htm
> >> >
> >> >A former Mossad operative who dumps on the Mossad.
> >> >Antisemitic?
> >>
> >> You tell me.
> >
> >You used him as an example.
>
> His former handlers accused him of being a threat to Israel and, by
> extension, Jews.
Sorry, that's reaching just a tad. Doesn't make him antisemitic.
> IIRC, the same idiot who flew from Israel to Canada to
> publicly offer a bounty on Ostrovsky's head (on national Canadian
> television, no less!) called him an anti-Semite. So is he or isn't he?
I don't know. I read the reference you gave and found nothing helpful
in answering this question.
> >> >> 5. Harold Wallace Rosenthal
> >> >> http://www2.southwind.net/~amfirst/rosenthl.htm
> >> >
> >> >An interview (not quoted), conducted "sometime" in the
> >> >1970s? That's *really* good "evidence", Anthony.
> >>
> >> It is a good starting point, just as I said.
> >
> >I don't see why.
>
> I fail to see why you, a person with a history degree, doesn't find the link
> useful for starting to do research on the subject. In any case...
I do and I did. I just didn't find the information that you implied
would be there.
> >> >> 6. Benjamin H. Freedman
> >> >> http://www2.southwind.net/~amfirst/freedman.htm
> >> >
> >> >Didn't he convert to Catholicism?
> >>
> >> Yup. Does that mean he's not a Jew? Please be
> >> clear.
> >
> >Yes. Is that clear?
>
> Whoa! "Yes" he is no longer a Jew?
Yes, he is no longer a Jew.
> Does that mean Yale and Ganymede, both
> avowed atheists (agnostics at best) aren't Jews?
I don't speak for Yale and Danny; we have never discussed religion. But
I am sure I have seen Yale say he practices. He is also very
knowledgeable about Catholicism.
> I should think they would
> beg to differ. Being Jewish is neither religious nor racial because an
> atheist is still a Jew and an Indian convert to Judaism is also a Jew.
> Therefore, I believe being Jewish is a tribal affair. Thus, even though
> Freedman is a Catholic he is still a Jew. So is he an anti-Semite (tm) or
> not?
He is not a Jew. He neither practices the religion nor belongs to the
Jewish community.
> >> >> 7. Richard Phillips
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.dejanews.com/[ST_rn=qs]/dnquery.xp?QRY
> >> >> =%7Ea+%28rgp...@mediaone.net)
> >> >>
> >> >> I trust this list will suffice for now?
> >> >
> >> >No, since you haven't done what I requested. I see
> >> >no evidence that any of those persons is an antisemitic
> >> >Jew,
> >>
> >> I have indeed provided "evidence"; please remember
> >> that absolute proofs are for mathematics. You are simply
> >> scoffing with a wave of your hand.
> >
> >No, I am merely asking for something and you haven't
> >provided it.
>
> I contend I have. There are seven links above. That is evidence.
I disagree. None of what you provided (and I checked every link)
provides an example of an antisemitic Jew.
Dictionaries do tend to be used for objective definitions. If you
prefer to use your own definition, then there isn't much to discuss.
> Rather, Sobran truthfully states the _workings_ of the word in real-world
> usage.
Opinion.
[Sobran deleted]
> I think it's important to the point(s) being discussed here in this thread.
I don't. That's _my_ opinion. :-)
> >> >I thought your time off would have matured you a
> >> >bit, but I was obviously mistaken.
> >>
> >> I'll ignore this particular bit of flame-bait for now.
> >
> >No flamebait intended. An ellipse. I meant "matured
> >your debating technique".
>
>
> Um...yeah. OK. ;-)
Seriously. I'm glad to see you back. We'll see where we end up if you
stay for a while.
> >> >[deleted]
> >> >
> >> >> > > it strikes many rather odd that there exists
> >> >> > > quite a number of 'self-hating Jews' (described
> >> >> > > as such by other Jews).
> >> >> >
> >> >> > That doesn't make them antisemitic. Look up
> >> >> > the word.
> >> >>
> >> >> Bullshit. A "self-hating Jew" means a Jew who
> >> >> despises what he or she is; i.e., a Jew. If you don't
> >> >> like Jews or 'Jewishness' then you are an "anti-Semite"
> >> >> (tm). Please cut the crap, Gord.
> >> >
> >> >The only crap here is yours. A Jew can hate himself;
> >> >that doesn't make him antisemitic.
> >>
> >> A "self-hating Jew" apparently hates himself _because_
> >> he is a Jew.
> >
> >No, a self-hating Jew could hate himself for a million
> >reasons.
>
> But that would make him a simple "self-hater", Jew or not. A "self-hating
> *Jew*" despises the very fact that he is a Jew because he sees something
> wrong with that. Surely that is a clear case of "prejudice or discrimination
> against, or intolerance of Jews, Jewish culture" as per your own definition
> (see top of message)!
No. It may evidence of prejudice or discrimination against, or
intolerance of _a_ Jew - himself. That's the whole point. Antisemitism
is hatred of Jews.
> >And even if he hated himself because he was a Jew would
> >not make him antisemitic.
>
> Of course it would; that's the whole point of being a "self-hating *Jew*" as
> opposed to a "self-hating *person*".
No, because antisemitism is not hatred os one person, but rather the
group.
> >> This indicates a prejuice towards Jews, which makes his or
> >> her "anti-Semitic" (tm). Am I wrong?
> >
> >Yes.
>
> No, I think you're totally wrong on this one. Waaay off!
Then you shouldn't have agreed with the dictionary definition.
> >> If so, please explain.
> >
> >Because hating a specific Jew does not mean you hate Jews
> >in general which is the basic definition of antisemitism.
>
> No, this makes no sense.
It makes sense because it is what the word means. You agreed with the
definition. Therefore, you make as little sense as I do. :-)
--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time
Visit the Holocaust History Project
http://www.holocaust-history.org
Visit the Nizkor site
http://www.nizkor.org
Yale F. Edeiken
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Jeffrey G. Brown
<rgph...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>Jeffrey G. Brown wrote:
>
>> In article <36DBBC53...@mediaone.net>, Liar Philllips
>> <rgph...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> [...deletia...]
>> >In other words, you have nothing except Brown's fabricated case.
>>
>> Cite the "fabricated" portion of the evidence, Liar.
Liar Philllips can't answer. It is therefore assumed that he was lying
when he stated that I "fabricated" any part of my case.
>> > [...deletia...]
>>
>> >Oh no, you people way. he REAL issue is that Phillips changed his
>> >demands.
>>
>> Who has made that statement, Liar?
Liar Philllips can't answer. It is therefore assumed that he was lying
when he stated that some unknown individual claimed that "[t]he REAL issue
is that Phillips changed his demands."
> [...deletia...]
>As I have stated several times, I feel he should hold off rejoining
>us until he has started on his pubic hair.
Liar Philllips again chooses to parade publicly his fascination with the
genitals of other men.
JGB
Yale F. Edeiken
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Gnkg afgodk mpjqlezl Yxch
Richard Phillips
Jeffrey G. Brown wrote:
==========================================
Phillips
What we are is, for the most part, determined by our genes and as to what
genes we get, we are given very little say. Therefore, I suppose it could be
adduced in your defence that you are not responsible for what you are.
HOWEVER, your decision to insinuate yourself into and inflict yourself upon a
society of (for the most part) normal adults is yours entirely and for that
decision you will have to live with the ridicule that is the instinctive
reaction of the normal person upon whom your impact is about the same as would
be the discovery of a turd in the punchbowl.
No doubt you draw comfort from the seeming support of your Holocaustnik
cohorts. Be not deceived. They may find you useful but (unless I am miles off
the mark) despise you no less than I do.
If you are thinking about trading me insult for insult, that option is not
open to you. When it comes to that sort of thing, you are not in my class and
never will be.
==================================================================
Richard Phillips
Gord McFee wrote:
=====================================
Phillips
I am fully aware that I am not about to make any impression but I am going to try
anyway.
(1) Chuck's claim that he was an Army fighter pilot is very central; indeed it is
the very basis of his persona as perceived on A.R. He continually uses it as a
platform to lend force and authority to his postings. IF it were shown to be
untrue it would leave himn with a credibility problem so severe that it is
unlikely we would ever hear from him again.
My being Jewish is not a thing of any particular significance. My ideas stand or
fall on their intrinsic merits, irrespective of my origins. If it could be
established that I am jewish, it would not prove my ideas right right; if the
opposite were established, it would not prove them wrong.
(2) The truth or falsity of Ferree's claim can ONLY be established by reference to
documents pertaining to his service record and these can only be released upon his
permission. I never "demanded" of Ferree that he provide them; I only _invited_
him to do so. So far, he has chosen not to.
If I had been born into a family of observant Jews, my origins could easily be
proven by a certificate of Bar Mitzvah from the temple where it had been
performed. However, my family was strictly a secular one, so I was never Bar
Mitzvah. However, in 1970 I did emigrate to Israel in the status of a Jewish
immigrant. This is the first time in my life that anyone has ever questioned
this. I have already posted (and am willing to post a second time) the names and
whereabouts of three persons who will attest to having known me there. If you
take the position that all THREE of them are liars, then I would refer you to the
State Department office that deals with passports and visas. In their case, an
accusation of mendacity might be harder to make stick.
To sum up, I respectfully submit that the demand for proof of my Jewishness arose
not from a demand for justice or consistency but, rather, was nothing more than a
stalling tactic to designed cover Ferree's ass.
===========================================================
Yale F. Edeiken
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Allan Matthews
says...
>To sum up, I respectfully submit that the demand for proof of my Jewishness arose
>not from a demand for justice or consistency but, rather, was nothing more than a
>stalling tactic to designed cover Ferree's ass.
Is this the same stalling tactic that keeps you from posting any proof
about your claims about yourself?
Clearly your dishonesty and hypocrisy know no bounds, Philllllllllllips.
allan
--
================================================================
allan_m...@bigfoot.com
================================================================
"Some people just cannot be permitted to have the same rights"
---> 'Richard G. Philllips'
================================================================
http://www2.shore.net/~matthews/
================================================================
Richard Phillips
Allan Matthews wrote:
> In article <36DE0CD0...@mediaone.net>, rgph...@mediaone.net
> says...
> >To sum up, I respectfully submit that the demand for proof of my Jewishness arose
> >not from a demand for justice or consistency but, rather, was nothing more than a
> >stalling tactic to designed cover Ferree's ass.
>
> Is this the same stalling tactic that keeps you from posting any proof
> about your claims about yourself?
===========================
PHillips
PLease read what HAS been posted. I don't mind too much repeating myself a second time
but balk at demands for a third.
===================
Allan Matthews
says...
>> >not from a demand for justice or consistency but, rather, was nothing more than a
>> >stalling tactic to designed cover Ferree's ass.
>>
>> about your claims about yourself?
>
>===========================
>PHillips
>
>PLease read what HAS been posted.
Been there. Done that.
>I don't mind too much repeating myself a second time
Guess that comes from having nothing of substance to say.
>but balk at demands for a third.
>===================
I have yet to see you post anything other than evidence-free assertions
regarding yourself, Philllllllllllips. As a documented liar, your claims
are worthless.
Chuck Ferree
Richard Phillips wrote:
> Allan Matthews wrote:
>
> > In article <36DE0CD0...@mediaone.net>, rgph...@mediaone.net
> > says...
> > >To sum up, I respectfully submit that the demand for proof of my Jewishness arose
> > >not from a demand for justice or consistency but, rather, was nothing more than a
> > >stalling tactic to designed cover Ferree's ass.
CF:> Ferree's ass has not been seriously exposed to danger since about May of 1945.
That's not to say in civilian life there hasn't been moments of serious crisis, and
struggle for survival, but in a business or professioal situation.
>
> >
> > Is this the same stalling tactic that keeps you from posting any proof
> > about your claims about yourself?
>
> ===========================
> PHillips
>
> PLease read what HAS been posted. I don't mind too much repeating myself a second time
> but balk at demands for a third.
CF:> who cares about phillips religion or lack of same. He's a phony either way, and of
course has a serious propensity to lie a lot.
>
> ===================
>
> >
> >
> > Clearly your dishonesty and hypocrisy know no bounds, Philllllllllllips.
> >
> > allan
B I N G O !
Anthony Sabatini
Ha! Don't you wish! :-)
No, it's just that I've said my piece and the matter and you yours. I'm
content to leave it at that but I would never be so bold as to simply
declare victory... ;-)
>> >But in fact, all of this is silly, isn't it?
>>
>> It's getting there. ;-)
>
>It always has been.
No, I feel it was serious but it's been dragged out too much now. Pax, Gord.
>[deleted]
>
>> [Gord to Richard:]
>> >> >> > > >You make certain claims about yourself, in
>> >> >> > > >particular that you are Jewish. Since there
>> >> >> > > >are extremely few Jews who hold antisemitic
>> >> >> > > >and racist views similar to yours,
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > Unsubstaniated opinion.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Name me a few antisemitic Jews.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> OK. Here are some Jews who have been smeared
>> >> >> with the incredibly lame (and boring!) "anti-Semite"
>> >> >> (tm) and/or "self-hating Jew" epithets along with a
>> >> >> link to start interested researchers.
>> >> >
>> >> >I know this game.
>> >>
>> >> No game; I'm very serious.
>> >
>> >I am sure you are. You said, "smeared with the incredibly
>> >lame...". I asked for antisemitic Jews, not Jews who had
>> >been accused by others of being antisemitic.
>>
>> So who, then, is the final authority on who is or isn't an
>> "anti-Semite"?
>
>That is not the point.
Oh, but it is! Read on!
>I asked for some antisemitic Jews. That someone has been
>"smeared with the label" doesn't mean they meet the definition.
>If you choose you impose your own arbitrary definition, which
>is your right, we are wasting our time here. If you define
>terms any way you want, then you can prove anything you
>want.
No, no, no, Gord! If we can't decide on just who or who isn't an
"anti-Semite" (tm) then how can you say David Cole, for example, isn't one?
The very crux of this issue, if it is to be resolved honestly, is to find
some way of being able to unfailingly (within acceptable limits, of course)
judge whether a given person is or isn't an "anit-Semite" (tm). Otherwise we
return to the 'he said, she said' silliness. Capito?
>I don't play that game.
Of course you do. You even tried it here in this thread! :-O ;-)
>> Typically when someone accuses another of being one
>> it is generally left at that after some (varying) amount
>> of protest from the accused. Who or what determines
>> whether the latter is or isn't an "anti-Semite"?
>>
>> >> >First you invent your own definition of antisemitism
>> >>
>> >> Nyet. Just for fun, though, please provide a definition
>> >> of "anti-Semitism" we can both use as a common point
>> >> of reference for the purpose of this discussion.
>> >
>> >The one in the dictionary. You are claiming that anyone
>> >who says something bad about *any* Jew is antisemitic.
>>
>> No, I've given examples of people who have been called
>> "anti-Semitic", usually by other Jews.
>>
>> >That is not what the word means. (I assume that is why
>> >you add the TM.)
>>
>> I add the (tm) symbol to indicate the laughable nature of
>> that epithet. As I said before, unchecked use of the term
>> has diluted to a point of silliness. Do you disagree?
>
>I think the (tm) stuff comes across silly and provocative.
You didn't answer my question in a direct manner. In any case, "silly" is
the key word as I've explain (i.e., the ridiculous overuse of the term). As
to "provocative", I'll just say, "Sometimes," and leave it at that with a
sly grin. ;-)
>> >One dictionary defines antisemitism as "prejudice or
>> >discrimination against, or intolerance of Jews, Jewish
>> >culture". Work for you?
>>
>> I'd say it 'rocks my boat' but some people here -- who
>> shall remain nameless! -- would probably get all hot
>> and bothered. ;-)
>
>Remember now, you agreed with the definition. See below.
Yup. The problem remains, as we "see below", that we can't seem to come to
an agreement as to what, exactly, constitutes a "prejudice or discrimination
against, or intolerance of Jews". That is why I stress the importance of
being able to properly define the term.
>> >> >and then say that any Jew ever labeled an
>> >> >antisemite is an antisemitic Jew. Pretty lame,
>> >> >even if the sources below were examples of
>> >> >antisemitic Jews, which they are not.
>> >>
>> >> They weren't necessarily provided as "exmples of
>> >> [anti-Semitism]" per se. I clearly said: "link[s] to
>> >> ***start*** interested researchers." (Emphasis
>> >> added now.)
>> >
>> >Fair enough, but they are therefore irrelevant and
>> >you still haven't provided an example of an antisemitic
>> >Jew, which after all was my request.
>>
>> *sigh* Let's see (below).
>
>You would have been better not to.
Hee, hee, hee! Nien, mien freund! (sp? Gord, help me out with my German
here, please. <g>)
>> >> >> 1. David Cole
>> >> >> http://www.codoh.com/gcgv/gc46-ORIGI.HTML
>> >> >
>> >> >So? That makes him antisemitic? Idiotic, I grant, you,
>> >> >but antisemitic?
>> >>
>> >> He 'denies' [sic] (denied?) the Nazi holocaust. Apparently
>> >> that is ground for the stupid "anti-Semite" (tm) label. Am
>> >> I wrong?
>> >
>> >Yes, I hope so. Denying the Holocaust doesn't automatically
>> >make one antisemitic,
>>
>> Er...um...er. I don't know. Honestly.
>
>Why would it make one an antisemite _automatically_?
It has been argued in this very newsgroup that to 'deny' [sic] the Nazi
holocaust is to believe in some sort of Jooish Conspriacy (tm), etc. Are you
claiming this isn't the case? Please spell it out for me because I want to
be absolutely sure I understand your position. TIA.
>> I and others here have been repeatedly told -- granted
>> not in so many words -- that is indeed the case. How
>> shall we settle the matter of whether David Cole is
>> (was?) an anti-Semite or not? Is there some authority
>> we can turn to (as per my question at the top) or shall
>> we hold an ad hoc vote of some kind?
>
>You have already agreed with the dictionary definition above.
>What is there about Cole that meets that definition?
Many Nizkooks have claimed that, as a holocaust 'denier' [sic], Cole
attributes to 'da Jooz' some vast conspiracy that make the latter congenital
liars, plotters, et al.
[...]
>> >> >> 2. Israel Shahak
>> >> >> http://www.codoh.com/zionweb/zishahak/zishahakan01.html
>> >> >
>> >> >Where in that long, boring tract does he say he is
>> >> >antisemitic?
>> >>
>> >> He is clearly anti-Zionist, yes? Who was it that said
>> >> 'scratch and anti-Zionist and you'll find an anti-Semite'
>> >> (or something along those lines)?
>> >
>> >I don't know, but one can be antisemitic and still oppose
>> >Zionism.
>>
>> I assume you meant _support_ Zionism here; otherwise I
>> don't know what you mean.
>
>No, I was trying to say that one can oppose Zionism and not
>be antisemitic.
Not according to Ostrov's quote (below), you can't!
>> Either way, a quick search at Deja News revealed this
>> interesting little tidbit from none other than everyone's
>> favorite acerbic Jewish supremacist, Hilary Ostrov:
>>
>> < begin quote >
>>
>> >> So you say ... however, as Martin Luther King, Jr.
>> >> noted in 1967:
>> >>
>> >> <begin>
>> >>
>> >> "The anti-semite rejoices at any opportunity to vent
>> >> his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the
>> >> West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews.
>> >>
>> >> This being the case, the anti-semite must constantly
>> >> seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he
>> >> must revel in the new masquerade. He does not hate
>> >> Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'."
>> >>
>> >> <end>
>>
>> < end quote >
>
>Dr. King is talking about a masquerade - a person saying
>they are not antisemitic (but really is), and tries to hide it
>by saying they are merely anti-Zionist. He does not say
>that the two are the same thing.
I'm not talking about what King said or meant; rather, I was demonstrating
what Jewish supremacists such as Ostrov do with respect to the puerile
"anti-Semite" (tm) label. She provides a good example of how that idiotic
term is used in everyday life. Do you follow what I'm saying?
>> Source: 1997/11/15 article <346e0348...@news.uniserve.com>,
>> titled "Re: Hockey Night in Canada (was: Kristallnacht in Canada?)",
>> starring Hilary, myself and a few others with a special guest
>> appearance by none other than the inimitable Gord McFee! ;-)
>
>Yeehah!
:-)
[other examples of allegedly anti-Semitic (tm) Jews snipped for now; we'll
return to them once we've established some clear fashion in which we may be
able to easily determine whether a given person is an anti-Semite (tm) or
not.]
>> >> >> 6. Benjamin H. Freedman
>> >> >> http://www2.southwind.net/~amfirst/freedman.htm
>> >> >
>> >> >Didn't he convert to Catholicism?
>> >>
>> >> Yup. Does that mean he's not a Jew? Please be
>> >> clear.
>> >
>> >Yes. Is that clear?
>>
>> Whoa! "Yes" he is no longer a Jew?
>
>Yes, he is no longer a Jew.
How about Ganymede? He is not a true believer in God or Judaism or any other
religion. Is he a Jew or not? (Methinks you've made problems for yourself
here, Gord! <g>)
>> Does that mean Yale and Ganymede, both
>> avowed atheists (agnostics at best) aren't Jews?
>
>I don't speak for Yale and Danny; we have never
>discussed religion. But I am sure I have seen Yale
>say he practices.
I've read Hitler-lovin' Yale's message in this thread in which he claims to
be a practising Jew. In the past, however, I've read posts where people
(eg., Matt Giwer and Fergus) refer to him as being an athiest and Yale's
reply doesn't correct that apparent error. This is likely where I got the
notion he was an athiest. Now he tells me I'm wrong. OK, fine. I only used
him as an example because, since he posts here, it was convenient, but any
non-practising Jew will do.
>He is also very knowledgeable about Catholicism.
No, he isn't. He's only demonstrated a propensity for posting Catholic
quotes *if* they suit him. Totally different from being "knowledgeable".
>> I should think they would beg to differ. Being Jewish
>> is neither religious nor racial because an atheist is
>> still a Jew and an Indian convert to Judaism is also
>> a Jew. Therefore, I believe being Jewish is a tribal
>> affair. Thus, even though Freedman is a Catholic he
>> is still a Jew. So is he an anti-Semite (tm) or not?
>
>He is not a Jew. He neither practices the religion nor
>belongs to the Jewish community.
Hitler-lovin' Yale claims that, although he himself doesn't consider
Freedman a Jew, other do. Who shall we turn to as final authority on the
matter? The best one I can think of would be the state of Israel. What do
they say about 'Jewishness'?
[snipped for brevity -- why is it every time you and I discuss matters the
posts inevitably end up many hundreds of lines long? <g>]
But it is *not* _my_ definition! Besides, Sobran's quote was more about
explaining how the term is used in everyday life than defining it -- as he
clearly stated at the top of the quote -- as per a dictionary.
>> Rather, Sobran truthfully states the _workings_ of the
>> word in real-world usage.
>
>Opinion.
Fine. Sobran paints a picture of how the term is used in the real-world
based on his experiences. I agree with him based on mine.
>[Sobran deleted]
>
>> I think it's important to the point(s) being discussed
>> here in this thread.
>
>I don't. That's _my_ opinion. :-)
Then let's agree to disagree on this point, OK?
>> >> >I thought your time off would have matured
>> >> >you a bit, but I was obviously mistaken.
>> >>
>> >> I'll ignore this particular bit of flame-bait for
>> >> now.
>> >
>> >No flamebait intended. An ellipse. I meant
>> >"matured your debating technique".
>>
>> Um...yeah. OK. ;-)
>
>Seriously. I'm glad to see you back. We'll see where
>we end up if you stay for a while.
We will "end up" where we always end up; certain people -- who shall remain
nameless! -- will totally piss me off and I will retaliate the way I see
fit. This in turn will royally piss _them_ off and we will be back to where
we started from, only with a few more scars than before!
I'm seriously saddened to see that you still believe this can be (is?) a
forum for intelligent (?) exchanges while the atmosphere is so charged
(largely due to the emotional level of the main topic usually discussed
here). Now I will readily admit to my fair share of the responsibility, but
notice how I'm able to hold non-flame-based discussions some individuals
here (eg. yourself, David Gorski of late). What this tells me is two things:
certain people just don't 'match' (a truism in- and outside of this
newsgroup) and there is often a *deliberate* attempt at sabotaging
discussions here. What makes you think this will change any time soon? Why?
[...]
>> >> A "self-hating Jew" apparently hates himself _because_
>> >> he is a Jew.
>> >
>> >No, a self-hating Jew could hate himself for a million
>> >reasons.
>>
>> But that would make him a simple "self-hater", Jew or not.
>> A "self-hating *Jew*" despises the very fact that he is a Jew
>> because he sees something wrong with that. Surely that is
>> a clear case of "prejudice or discrimination against, or
>> intolerance of Jews, Jewish culture" as per your own definition
>> (see top of message)!
>
>No. It may evidence of prejudice or discrimination against, or
>intolerance of _a_ Jew - himself. That's the whole point.
>Antisemitism is hatred of Jews.
>
>> >And even if he hated himself because he was a Jew would
>> >not make him antisemitic.
>>
>> Of course it would; that's the whole point of being a "self-
>> hating *Jew*" as opposed to a "self-hating *person*".
>
>No, because antisemitism is not hatred os one person, but
>rather the group.
>
>> >> This indicates a prejuice towards Jews, which makes
>> >> his or her "anti-Semitic" (tm). Am I wrong?
>> >
>> >Yes.
>>
>> No, I think you're totally wrong on this one. Waaay off!
>
>Then you shouldn't have agreed with the dictionary definition.
I would be happy to hear the opinions of others on this topic, even
Hitler-lovin' Yale.
>> >> If so, please explain.
>> >
>> >Because hating a specific Jew does not mean you
>> >hate Jews in general which is the basic definition
>> >of antisemitism.
>>
>> No, this makes no sense.
>
>It makes sense because it is what the word means.
>You agreed with the definition. Therefore, you make
>as little sense as I do. :-)
That bad, huh? ;-)
[long .sig shortened. A lot.]
---
Help support Canada and its culture:
http://www.billc55.com/
Jeffrey G. Brown
<rgph...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>If you are thinking about trading me insult for insult, that option is not
>open to you. When it comes to that sort of thing, you are not in my class and
>never will be.
I should hope not. Unlike Liar Philllips, I do not stoop to questioning a
man's toilet training, commenting upon his genital region, make baseless
claims conerning his employment status, or insinuate that he is a
homosexual.
Philllips and others of his "class", however, do.
JGB
Anthony Sabatini
<36dd5...@news3.enter.net>...
>Anthony Sabatini, the enemy of free speech, lies again:
>>Gord McFee wrote in message <36e10690...@news3.ibm.net>...
>>>In <2XiC2.319$3%6.4...@news.total.net>, on Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:46:53
>>>-0500, "Anthony Sabatini" <nizkoo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Gord McFee wrote in message <36ddaf40...@news3.ibm.net>...
>>>> >In <jahC2.301$3%6.4...@news.total.net>, on Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:46:38
>>>> >-0500, "Anthony Sabatini" <nizkoo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I add the (tm) symbol to indicate the laughable nature
>>of that epithet. As I said before, unchecked use of the
>>term has diluted to a point of silliness. Do you disagree?
>
> Yes. But then the Conference of American Bishops
>describes your writings as anti-Semitic.
As I said before, the Council is free to do what it wishes. Said Council did
not, of course, hear my side of story, nor has it read my posts. Such being
the case, I'll conclude that you're just being your usual asshole-like self.
(And yes, I'm laughing at you.)
>>Either way, a quick search at Deja News revealed this
>>interesting little tidbit from none other than everyone's
>>favorite acerbic Jewish supremacist, Hilary Ostrov:
>
>>< begin quote >
>
>>>> So you say ... however, as Martin Luther King, Jr.
>>>> noted in 1967:
>>>>
>>>> <begin>
>>>>
>>>> "The anti-semite rejoices at any opportunity to vent
>>>> his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the
>>>> West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews.
>>>>
>>>> This being the case, the anti-semite must constantly
>>>> seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he
>>>> must revel in the new masquerade. He does not hate
>>>> Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'."
>>>>
>>>> <end>
>>
>>< end quote >
>
>>Source: 1997/11/15 article <346e0348...@news.uniserve.com>,
>>titled "Re: Hockey Night in Canada (was: Kristallnacht in
>>Canada?)", starring Hilary, myself and a few others with
>>a special guest appearance by none other than the
>>inimitable Gord McFee! ;-)
>
>>Gee, looks like nearly *anyone* can now be a bone fide
>>anti-Semite (tm)! What say, Gord?
>
> That you are a bona fide anti-Semite.
Who cares what _you_ think, Hitler-worshipper?
>>>> >> 6. Benjamin H. Freedman
>>>> >> http://www2.southwind.net/~amfirst/freedman.htm
>>>> >
>>>> >Didn't he convert to Catholicism?
>>>>
>>>> Yup. Does that mean he's not a Jew? Please be
>>>> clear.
>
>>>Yes. Is that clear?
>
>>Whoa! "Yes" he is no longer a Jew? Does that mean
>>Yale and Ganymede, both avowed atheists (agnostics
>>at best) aren't Jews? I should think they would beg
>>to differ.
>
> I certainly do. Your statement is a figment of your
>imagination.
No, actually, it's not. You have been described as an athiest (or agnostic,
at best) by a few people over the years, notably Matt Giwer and Fergus. Your
direct replies to these posts have never corrected this so I assumed, quited
naturally given the circumstance, that you were. No big deal if you aren't.
>I am neither an atheist or agnostic and I have never
>represented myself as either.
See explanation above.
>I am, to my pleasure, a practicing Jew
Good for you. Either way, you remain a Hilter-loving asshole.
>and I resent your dishonest slur.
How in God's name would it be "slur", you imbecile? Cripes! I've been
accussed of sporting thin skin in this newsgroup, but _this_!
>> Being Jewish is neither religious nor racial because
>>an atheist is still a Jew and an Indian convert to
>>Judaism is also a Jew. Therefore, I believe being
>>Jewish is a tribal affair. Thus, even though Freedman
>>is a Catholic he is still a Jew. So is he an anti-Semite
>>(tm) or not?
>
> Although some disagree, Freedman is no more a Jew
>than is Pope John Paul II
>(the man you called a "braindead moron")
I didn't, liar. You are twisting as is your wont. To quote you, "Go fuck
youself."
>>>> >> Correction: it _used to be_ a "legitimate word";
>>>> >> the term has since been diluted by ridiculous
>>>> >> overuse, it's acceptable scope obfuscated to mean
>>>> >> everything and nothing. Joseph Sobran explains
>>>> >> it fairly well:
>
> The enemy of freedom of the press neglects to point out
>that William Buckley, Jr., a close friend and admirer of
>Sobran's, was the one who asserted that Sobran was an
>anti-Semite and refused to print his columns because of
>his "obsession."
Argumentum ad hominem. Not a single, solitary _attempt_ to rebut Sobran's
opinions. Instead we are treated to the laughable "anti-Semite" (tm)
stupidity. Truly you _are_ an idiot, Edieken. (Still, you _are_ amusing most
of the time nonetheless.)
>\>Yes and no. Yes, they are my opinions. As for "definition",
>>it was not intended as such; a dictionary would suffice for
>>such a trivial matter. Rather, Sobran truthfully states the
>>_workings_ of the word in real-world usage.
>
> More of "Sabatini's" nonsense. Sobran was trying to justify
>the fact that even his friends knew he was a anti-Semite and
>said so publically.
How do you know this? Seemed to me like he was just explaining the situation
based on his experiences. Explain yourself, moron. (Try remain coherent.)
>>>> >Still throwing the Sobran quote around, are you?
>
>>>> Still. Tell me, does the passage of time invalidate his
>>>> description/interpretation? I notice that you hae failed
>>>> to rebut what he says. Cripes, you didn't even *try*!
>
>>>I have done it before and others have as well.
>
>>I cannot recall a single instance of reading your comments
>>on the quote. Can you please provide some context (keywords
>>or a title, perhaps) that will enable me to find it at Deja News?
>
> But, since you recall statements that were never made,
>your memory is for shit.
Nien, Herr Edeiken! See explanation above.
>> TIA. As for others, I remember David Gehrig babbling on
>>about it, but he only presented a textbook example of
>>the ad hominem debating tactic: all he did was go on and
>>on about how Sobran was a -- you guessed it! -- "anti-
>>Semite" (tm); in no shape or manner did he actually rebut
>>a single point/argument raised by Sobran. As such, I'm
>>afraid it doesn't count.
>
> Which is unneeded. There is a lengthy discussion of Sobran
>and his "obsession" in Buckley's "In Search of Anti-Semitism."
IOW, you're 'argument' (snicker, snicker), like Gehrig's before you, amounts
to nothing more than a shrill cry of "Anti-Semite! Anti-Semite!" (tm) LOL!
What a sad joke you are, Hitler-lover. Pitiful.
[stupid .sig evaporated]
Richard Phillips
Chuck Ferree wrote:
> Richard Phillips wrote:
>
> > Allan Matthews wrote:
> >
> > > In article <36DE0CD0...@mediaone.net>, rgph...@mediaone.net
> > > says...
> > > >To sum up, I respectfully submit that the demand for proof of my Jewishness arose
> > > >not from a demand for justice or consistency but, rather, was nothing more than a
> > > >stalling tactic to designed cover Ferree's ass.
>
> CF:> Ferree's ass has not been seriously exposed to danger since about May of 1945.
> That's not to say in civilian life there hasn't been moments of serious crisis, and
> struggle for survival, but in a business or professioal situation.
>
> >
> > >
> > > Is this the same stalling tactic that keeps you from posting any proof
> > > about your claims about yourself?
> >
> > ===========================
> > PHillips
> >
> > PLease read what HAS been posted. I don't mind too much repeating myself a second time
> > but balk at demands for a third.
>
> CF:> who cares about phillips religion or lack of same.
==============================================
PHillips
If my religion (racial origins, actually; I have never practiced the Jewish religion) are of
no importance, then why is it that everyone is demanding proofs of it. (see above).
]
==========================================
> He's a phony either way, and of
> course has a serious propensity to lie a lot.
>
> >
> > ===================
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Clearly your dishonesty and hypocrisy know no bounds, Philllllllllllips.
> > >
> > > allan
======================================
Phillips
It is impossible to get angry at you, Matthews. I despise you far too much for that.
===================================================
Richard Phillips
Jeffrey G. Brown wrote:
> In article <36DE03EC...@mediaone.net>, Liar Philllips
> <rgph...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
> >If you are thinking about trading me insult for insult, that option is not
> >open to you. When it comes to that sort of thing, you are not in my class and
> >never will be.
>
> I should hope not. Unlike Liar Philllips, I do not stoop to questioning a
> man's toilet training, commenting upon his genital region, make baseless
> claims conerning his employment status, or insinuate that he is a
> homosexual.
>
> Philllips and others of his "class", however, do.
>
> JGB
> ====================================================
> Phillips
I have no doubt that, at this moment, you are feeling very aggrieved, very hard
done by. Being an adult in years but an infant in moral development, you see no
reason why you should not have full license to commit libel and never suffer the
slightest consequence for it.
There are certain facts which, if they have not occurred to you, have most
certainly occurred to me. An Internet newsgroup is a very public place; anyone can
join in. So, when we have "Liar Phillips, liar Phillips, liar Phillips .."
reiterated almost daily over a period of a year (with every prospect of its
continuing to be reiterated) is it so completely beyond possibility that someday
this might come before the eyes of someone considering the possibility of becoming
either my employer or my client.
I quite genuinely regret the passing of the day when persons such as yourself were
dealt with as they deserved to be dealt with: by being cut into small pieces with
a bullwhip.
=====================================================================
yale_f._edeiken
> Hitler-lovin' Yale F. Edeiken pitifully whined in message
Note how the man who would restrict the freedom of others insists uoon
beiginning his post with a defamatory lie:
> <36dd5...@news3.enter.net>...
> >Anthony Sabatini, the enemy of free speech, lies again:
> >>Gord McFee wrote in message <36e10690...@news3.ibm.net>...
> >>>In <2XiC2.319$3%6.4...@news.total.net>, on Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:46:53
> >>>-0500, "Anthony Sabatini" <nizkoo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> Gord McFee wrote in message <36ddaf40...@news3.ibm.net>...
> >>>> >In <jahC2.301$3%6.4...@news.total.net>, on Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:46:38
> >>>> >-0500, "Anthony Sabatini" <nizkoo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>I add the (tm) symbol to indicate the laughable nature
> >>of that epithet. As I said before, unchecked use of the
> >>term has diluted to a point of silliness. Do you disagree?
> > Yes. But then the Conference of American Bishops
> >describes your writings as anti-Semitic.
> As I said before, the Council is free to do what it wishes. Said Council did
> not, of course, hear my side of story, nor has it read my posts. Such being
> the case, I'll conclude that you're just being your usual asshole-like self.
> (And yes, I'm laughing at you.)
Are you launging as well as the National Conference of Bishops who stated:
":Ever since World War II various extremist, often neo-Nazi groups have
sought to deny the crimes of the Nazis, particularly the attempt to exterminate the
Jewish people. We condemn these prejudiced efforts and the racial hatred they would
incite."
"In the 1970's, proponents of Holocaust denial began to camouflage their
message of hatred and antisemitism under a veneer of scholarly terminology in order to
regain respectability. Rather than stating their beliefs straightforwardly, they
began to call themselves "historical revisionists," pretending to be interested
in challenging and "revising" common understandings of the period.
In this guise of holocaust revisionism, the denials of the evils perpetrated by
Nazism against so many peoples and groups in Europe sought to rehabilitate the
tattered image of National Socialism (Nazism). To some extent they succeeded in
getting their views considered in unsuspecting academic symposia that took their
claims to scholarly integrity at face value."
Fight with them.
> > That you are a bona fide anti-Semite.
> Who cares what _you_ think, Hitler-worshipper?
Are you prepared to prove that lie in court?
> >>Whoa! "Yes" he is no longer a Jew? Does that mean
> >>Yale and Ganymede, both avowed atheists (agnostics
> >>at best) aren't Jews? I should think they would beg
> >>to differ.
> > I certainly do. Your statement is a figment of your
> >imagination.
> No, actually, it's not. You have been described as an athiest (or agnostic,
Your lie was that I was an "avowed atheist."
It was a lie.
> at best) by a few people over the years, notably Matt Giwer and Fergus.
One a criminal and the other has, to my knowledge, never made that
statement.
> Your
> direct replies to these posts have never corrected this so I assumed, quited
> naturally given the circumstance, that you were. No big deal if you aren't.
That is, as well, a lie.
> >I am neither an atheist or agnostic and I have never
> >represented myself as either.
> See explanation above.
Your explanation is fraudulent.
> >I am, to my pleasure, a practicing Jew
> Good for you. Either way, you remain a Hilter-loving asshole.
More defamation.
> >and I resent your dishonest slur.
> How in God's name would it be "slur", you imbecile? Cripes! I've been
> accussed of sporting thin skin in this newsgroup, but _this_!
Calling a person an "avowed atheist" is a slur by any definition.
> >> Being Jewish is neither religious nor racial because
> >>an atheist is still a Jew and an Indian convert to
> >>Judaism is also a Jew. Therefore, I believe being
> >>Jewish is a tribal affair. Thus, even though Freedman
> >>is a Catholic he is still a Jew. So is he an anti-Semite
> >>(tm) or not?
> > Although some disagree, Freedman is no more a Jew
> >than is Pope John Paul II
> >(the man you called a "braindead moron")
> I didn't, liar. You are twisting as is your wont. To quote you, "Go fuck
> youself."
You responded to a statement which he approved and issued as being the
writing of a "brain dead moron."
> >>>> >> Correction: it _used to be_ a "legitimate word";
> >>>> >> the term has since been diluted by ridiculous
> >>>> >> overuse, it's acceptable scope obfuscated to mean
> >>>> >> everything and nothing. Joseph Sobran explains
> >>>> >> it fairly well:
> > The enemy of freedom of the press neglects to point out
> >that William Buckley, Jr., a close friend and admirer of
> >Sobran's, was the one who asserted that Sobran was an
> >anti-Semite and refused to print his columns because of
> >his "obsession."
> Argumentum ad hominem. Not a single, solitary _attempt_ to rebut Sobran's
> opinions. Instead we are treated to the laughable "anti-Semite" (tm)
> stupidity. Truly you _are_ an idiot, Edieken. (Still, you _are_ amusing most
> of the time nonetheless.)
No it was William Buckley and his entire editorial board who found that
Sobran'[s statements were anti-Semitic.
>
> > More of "Sabatini's" nonsense. Sobran was trying to justify
> >the fact that even his friends knew he was a anti-Semite and
> >said so publically.
> How do you know this? Seemed to me like he was just explaining the situation
> based on his experiences. Explain yourself, moron. (Try remain coherent.)
Becasue they said so publically.
> > Which is unneeded. There is a lengthy discussion of Sobran
> >and his "obsession" in Buckley's "In Search of Anti-Semitism."
> IOW, you're 'argument' (snicker, snicker), like Gehrig's before you, amounts
> to nothing more than a shrill cry of "Anti-Semite! Anti-Semite!" (tm) LOL!
> What a sad joke you are, Hitler-lover. Pitiful.
No they represent the judgment of his friends and colleagues who kicked him
off the editorial board of the National Review because of his anti-Semitic writings.
--YFE
The Holocaust History Project is at http://www.holocaust-history.org/
The Nizkor Project is at http://www.nizkor.org/
The Einsatzgruppen page is at http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/
The Cybrary of the Holocaust is at http://www.remember.org/
`
Allan Matthews
says...
>Jeffrey G. Brown wrote:
>
>> In article <36DE03EC...@mediaone.net>, Liar Philllips
>> <rgph...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>>
>> >If you are thinking about trading me insult for insult, that option is not
>> >open to you. When it comes to that sort of thing, you are not in my class and
>> >never will be.
>>
>> I should hope not. Unlike Liar Philllips, I do not stoop to questioning a
>> man's toilet training, commenting upon his genital region, make baseless
>> claims conerning his employment status, or insinuate that he is a
>> homosexual.
>>
>> Philllips and others of his "class", however, do.
>>
>> JGB
>I have no doubt that, at this moment, you are feeling very aggrieved, very hard
>done by.
Philllllllllips is projecting again. With his thin skin he's constantly
whining about the labels and descriptions people attach to him, even when
they're accurate, such as "Liar" and "hypocrite."
>Being an adult in years but an infant in moral development, you see no
>reason why you should not have full license to commit libel and never suffer the
>slightest consequence for it.
Translation from Phillllips-speak: Mr. Brown has not committed libel.
Indeed, all he has done is describe Phillllllllips accurately by calling
him the liar that he is. This pisses Phillllllllips the lying hypocrite
and moral pygmy off so he feels it necessary to toss libels at Brown.
>There are certain facts which, if they have not occurred to you, have most
>certainly occurred to me.
That would be a first. However, it should be noted that Phillllips will
believe just about any 'fact' that comes down the Pike, as long has it
fits his bigotry. Like that business about the UL label he got suckered
into buying recently...
>An Internet newsgroup is a very public place; anyone can
>join in. So, when we have "Liar Phillips, liar Phillips, liar Phillips .."
>reiterated almost daily over a period of a year (with every prospect of its
>continuing to be reiterated) is it so completely beyond possibility that someday
>this might come before the eyes of someone considering the possibility of becoming
>either my employer or my client.
Well, those people should know that true nature of the liar, hypocrite
and deluded bozo that is Phillllllllips.
[Phillllllips' sicko fantasies snipped]
allan
Jeffrey G. Brown
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Allan Matthews
says...
>If my religion (racial origins, actually; I have never practiced the Jewish religion) are of
>no importance, then why is it that everyone is demanding proofs of it.
As you've been told now many times, it's simply because you feel that you
can demand proofs from others. That you're unwilling to provide such
proofs regarding yourself shows you for the hypocrite you are, Philllips.
>It is impossible to get angry at you, Matthews.
ROTFL!!! You sure do a good impression then. It clearly doesn't take
much to get Philllllllips to throw a hissy fit.
>I despise you far too much for that.
I enjoy pissing Nazi filth like you off. It's quite entertaining in its
own way. Thanks for the encouragement, loser.
Of course, it's no surprise that a clearly self-loathing, confessed
failure with admitted self-esteem problems, such as Phillllllllips here,
dreams of the day he becomes a second-class non-person in a Nazi state.
It would be funnier if it wasn't so damn pathetic.