The Revisionists Beat Nizkor

ns...@ix.netcom.com

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Jul 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/8/98

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THE REVISIONISTS HAVE WON

Dear Harold:

I am not certain, but I think we may be witnessing the
gradual fading to black of Nizkor; I would not be at all
surprised to see them as an organized group quietly fold
their tents and disappear into the night within the next
six months or so, although a lot of the more loud-mouthed
individuals will still be around and posting
on the "playgroups", as you have so aptly
designated them.

What has happened is very simple, although needless
to say the Nizkids will never admit it in a million years.
The fact is, the Revisionists have won. Not won some kind
of big intellectual or historical debate, of course. That
will never be allowed to happen, and Nizkor was never
intended to bring such a thing about. Nizkor was intended
by its true architects to SILENCE Revisionists, not
debate them, and in that task they have failed wretchedly.
More and more Revisionist web sites are springing up
every day, the Revisionist message is getting out to
millions of people now instead of hundreds of thousands
as it was in the days when Nizkor started up, there
is more and more general doubt about the Holocaust,
the industry itself has been forced to revise downward
the official number of the "martyrs" not once but
several times, and the governments of Europe and
Canada have been forced to stumble back on the
most blatant and heavy-handed forms of censorship
and political thuggery in a desperate attempt to
silence the questioning voices.

Nizkor was intended to sweep all of this from the
Internet; instead they have, if anything, exacerbated
it by making genuine libertarians mad and students of
history curious. In the end they were forced to resort
to the type of terrorist tactics you and others have
suffered, in order to try and drive people who disagreed
with their orthodoxies off the Net, and they even failed
in that. They might have made a better go of it if they
had been able to control their own lunatic fringe,
but people like Rich Graves and Andrew Mathis and
Joel Rosenberg turned the newsgroups into a
cyberspace mental asylum.

It is my considered opinion that three people have
done more to undermine and discredit Nizkor than anyone
else. (Other than the morons in Nizkor itself, of course).
The first is Matt Giwer of Florida, who doggedly refused
to give up when they persecuted him without mercy and
tried to drive him off the Internet. The second is
Ernst Zundel, who ran them ragged with a cheery
smile on his cyber-lips and finally tracked McVay
down to his kosher lair on Nunaimo (sp?) island,
debunking permanently the "independent Gentile
idealist" myth and exposing the whole thing as a
Jewish-financed front, most likely with the Simon
Wiesenthal Center ultimately footing the bill.

Finally, there is your own inimitable self; you
have spent the past two years or so regularly slicing
the Jews up into ribbons with your verbal swordplay
and hitting them where it hurts the most, in their
insatiable egos. It can't do their morale very much
good to understand that to their undoubted surprise,
they are totally outclassed and outgunned
intellectually by the people they began with
only contempt for.

I rather doubt that when Ken McVay makes his final
report and hands in all his gear at the synagogue where
Ernst found him, there will be much of a bonus waiting
for him in his last paycheck. He didn't deliver the goods.

-Name withheld as writer is
an active NA member

Daniel Mittleman

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Jul 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/8/98

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>THE REVISIONISTS HAVE WON

Dear Clueless Nazi,

You have it all wrong.

>I am not certain, but I think we may be witnessing the
>gradual fading to black of Nizkor; I would not be at all
>surprised to see them as an organized group quietly fold
>their tents and disappear into the night within the next
>six months or so, although a lot of the more loud-mouthed
>individuals will still be around and posting
>on the "playgroups", as you have so aptly
>designated them.

I can't speak for Nizkor. While Ken is very good at being a
lightening rod and has done an amazingly good job at fighting deniers,
I don't know what his long term plans are. But I would be very
surprised if he decided to close up shop. What is more important is
that the work of Nizkor is spreading to other organizations. Among
the participants on a.r, the organization most widely represented is
The Holocaust History Project.

Enjoy your six month projections, but recall (no you weren't around
here then) that the clueless Nazis on a.r were predicting in January
1994 that the "Holocaust Story" was surely to crumble before the year
was out. We laughed at them then...

>What has happened is very simple, although needless
>to say the Nizkids will never admit it in a million years.
>The fact is, the Revisionists have won. Not won some kind
>of big intellectual or historical debate, of course.

Of course.

>That
>will never be allowed to happen, and Nizkor was never
>intended to bring such a thing about. Nizkor was intended
>by its true architects to SILENCE Revisionists, not
>debate them, and in that task they have failed wretchedly.

Wrongo, bucko. First, its true architects? No one behind that
curtain except for Ken McVay. Sure Jamie McCarthy and others did
considerable work setting up the original web site, but it wouldn't
have happened -- and it would still be happening if it wasn't for Ken.
If you truely think there are other architects behind Ken then [a] you
are a deluded conspiracy theorist (ok, thats a given) and [b] you
don't know Ken. Ain't nobody able to tell Ken what to do.

Second, you are dead wrong about Nizkor's mission. It is what Ken and
others have been saying all along: it is to archive and refute the
statements of deniers. Those are two different actions with slightly
different objectives. Nizkor archives everything it can find of
denier speech because the best way to show the deniers are stupid is
to use their own words. Further, there is so much lying and deceit in
the messages of the deniers that an archival record is a valuable tool
to demonstrate their duplicity. Nizkor (and others) refute denier
claims so that naive readers who happen on to a.r and other such fora
can see denier claims for what they are.

Ken and most of the other regular posters to a.r who regularly refute
the deniers have been vocal and consistent in their call for free and
open speech. I can't speak for Ken on his reasoning here, but I can
say that my reasoning is that on the Internet everyone is going to be
able to say what they want anyway; trying to censor Internet speech is
not only wrong but it is fruitless. The best way to counter big lie
campaigns such as those of the deniers is to encourage interaction,
refute often, and record everything. Notice that that is just what we
are doing.

>More and more Revisionist web sites are springing up
>every day, the Revisionist message is getting out to
>millions of people now instead of hundreds of thousands
>as it was in the days when Nizkor started up, there
>is more and more general doubt about the Holocaust,
>the industry itself has been forced to revise downward
>the official number of the "martyrs" not once but
>several times, and the governments of Europe and
>Canada have been forced to stumble back on the
>most blatant and heavy-handed forms of censorship
>and political thuggery in a desperate attempt to
>silence the questioning voices.

Yup, more and more denier web sites are springing up. The Internet is
a whole new world where everyone can have a printing press. No way to
stop it. It is stupid to try. Some anti-denier organizations are
trying to. They are destined to fail.

Nevertheless, the deniers putting up these web sites are still the
same lowlives who've had trouble functioning in the world before their
web sites. I don't anticipate that they will be all that successful
even with their sites up and running. And in the meantime, those
sites will be refuted when appropriate, and recorded when possible.

As to your point about there being more general doubt about the
Holocaust. Only in your dreams. Schindler's List and the many other
Holocaust shows of the past few years, if anything, has strengthened
the publics understanding of what the Nazis did to the Jews and five
million or so other people. There will always be a fringe of society
with sufficient anime to doubt reality. There will forever be people
who think Elvis lives. But the great majority of us smirk at them and
move on.

Yes some governments have attempted to censor Holocaust deniers. I
agree with you that such action is heavy handed. I would add that in
my opinion it is also counter productive. But we have another
generation to go before the principals who were affected by the
Holocaust die out. And while they are around, there are times when
emotion will prevail over reason.

>Nizkor was intended to sweep all of this from the
>Internet; instead they have, if anything, exacerbated
>it by making genuine libertarians mad and students of
>history curious. In the end they were forced to resort
>to the type of terrorist tactics you and others have
>suffered, in order to try and drive people who disagreed
>with their orthodoxies off the Net, and they even failed
>in that. They might have made a better go of it if they
>had been able to control their own lunatic fringe,
>but people like Rich Graves and Andrew Mathis and
>Joel Rosenberg turned the newsgroups into a
>cyberspace mental asylum.

Oh maybe a few libertarians who already had anti-semitic leanings have
gotten steamed. The liberatrian movement as a whole most likely takes
the view I do: that the censorship attempts are wrong, but the deniers
are still pond scum. And again, you are placing Nizkor on the wrong
side of this fight.

And if this all makes students of history curious, all the better. No
objective and sane person who genuinely studies the Holocaust with an
open mind ends up in the camp of the deniers.

Terrorist attacks? I am not familiar with any (other than Zundel's
claims). I can't imagine anyone with Nizkor has engaged in terrorist
attacks. Do you have information to the contrary? Or do you only
have rhetoric?

I don't know Joel Rosenberg; am not aware of what you suggest he might
have done. I know Rich, but am not familiar with any charges against
him. Been pretty impressed by the work I have seen. Andrew Mathis
phoned Matt Giwer's father several years ago. He acknowledged it and
apologized for it. If that is the best you can do, then you ain't got
squat.

>It is my considered opinion that three people have
>done more to undermine and discredit Nizkor than anyone
>else. (Other than the morons in Nizkor itself, of course).

>The first is Matt Giwer of Florida, who doggedly refused
>to give up when they persecuted him without mercy and
>tried to drive him off the Internet.

It is interesting to note that none of the anti-demiers harass the
core of denier posters. Debunks, McClelland, Moran, etc. all post to
a.r with minimal, if any, attempts made to disrupt their ability to
post. One might ask then why so many people put in so much energy to
keep Matt Giwer from posting when such a pattern of behavior is
inconsistent with what the anti-deniers commonly do.

The answer, of course, is not that Giwer was a denier (he in fact is a
fairly weak one), rather it is that Giwer is a troll, a bully, and
engaged in posting behaviors - independent of content - that were
impolite and in violation of his many ISP user agreements. It is
possible, though I don't have evidence here in front of me to
demonstrate it, that some of his own behaviors constituted criminal
harassment.

The irony of your charge is that Giwer singlehandedly was destroying
a.r as a forum of discussion. The anti-deniers who worked hard to
remove Giwer from a.r did so to preserve the forum of discussion.
This is the exact opposite of the censorship charge you make above.

>The second is
>Ernst Zundel, who ran them ragged with a cheery
>smile on his cyber-lips and finally tracked McVay
>down to his kosher lair on Nunaimo (sp?) island,
>debunking permanently the "independent Gentile
>idealist" myth and exposing the whole thing as a
>Jewish-financed front, most likely with the Simon
>Wiesenthal Center ultimately footing the bill.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. Maybe if you made
your charge in english rather than in pseudo-yellow journalism
rhetoric it would make sense. Not likely the SWC is footing the bill
for Kenl; I know they have been approached before and they don't have
much of a team spirit about this anti-denier thing. They seem to want
to go it alone. Ken, though, has been upfront about his support from
the Bnai Brith of Canada (I don't know exactly what that support
entails). I happen to disagree with his decision to associate with
them -- I think he is stronger without being aligned with a core
Jewish organization and I don't agree with some of their stands on
censorship -- but at least he has been up front about that
association.

>Finally, there is your own inimitable self; you
>have spent the past two years or so regularly slicing
>the Jews up into ribbons with your verbal swordplay
>and hitting them where it hurts the most, in their
>insatiable egos. It can't do their morale very much
>good to understand that to their undoubted surprise,
>they are totally outclassed and outgunned
>intellectually by the people they began with
>only contempt for.

Since this is a "Dear Harold" letter, I presume you mean Harold. Its
not clear to me why you guys are having a cat fight, but have fun.

>I rather doubt that when Ken McVay makes his final
>report and hands in all his gear at the synagogue where
>Ernst found him, there will be much of a bonus waiting
>for him in his last paycheck. He didn't deliver the goods.

Um, yeah, right.

>-Name withheld as writer is
>an active NA member

And the Klan wear hoods over their heads. You gotta wonder why you
think the objective outsider reading all this stuff would be inclined
to believe people too scared to show their faces over people who do so
every day. But then, I've never claimed to understand Nazi pond scum
logic.

Have a nice day

danny

Jeffrey G. Brown

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Jul 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/8/98

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In article <35a423f3....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, Scott "beat you to a
bloody pulp" Bradbury (doc_t...@bigfoot.com, phi...@phoenix.net) wrote:

>Nizkor's mission is primarily smear, libel, misrepresent etc. any and
>all opposition!

> [...deletia...]

>The gall and audacity that a charity supported
>organization keeps files on private citizens to smear them is
>abhorrent!

What files are those, O Gutless One?

> [...deletia...]

>DejaNews is the true archive- it preserves all.

Except, of course, when Poor Ol' Gutless Scottie slips in an X-NO-ARCHIVE
header, so his own words won't come back to haunt him...

>Nizkor's "archives" are mainly comments on posts that have been made.

Your evidence of this is...? (Answer: Non-existent, as usual.)

> [...deletia...]

>NIZKOR Archives show:
>
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/t/people/k/katz.harry/1998/katz.9806
>
>From Harry...@mci.com Sun Jun 14 02:25:12 EDT 1998
>Article: 182410 of alt.revisionism
>Message-ID: <358067F0...@mci.com>
>From: Harry Katz <Harry...@mci.com>
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U)
>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>Subject: Re: Jews View Themselves as "Equals" to God - Hence Their
>"Choseness"
>
>Venomous McTavish spews:
>
> Have any of you ever seen anything more prejudicial and
>bigoted than the material above that speaks in the name of
>G-d? If this was a white group speaking of blacks in this manner there
>would be an outcry as such as never imagined!
>
>If the very worst thing that Whites ever did to Blacks was to refuse
>to buy eggs from them, I think that the outcry would be minimal.
>
> This is one group that is speaking this against all the rest
>of mankind!!! Open your eyes and see!
>
>As if "all the rest of mankind" is employed in selling eggs to Jews!
>
> Doc Tavish (A Voice Crying in the Wilderness)
>
>Make that "whining" instead of "crying!" I love the Biblical
>reference coming from a man who boasts that he likes "young stuff!"
>
>--
>Harry Katz
>
> ~~~ End of Nizkor Version of What I Posted ~~~
>
>Well lurkers how much of my original post do you see?

Uh, Gutless: that's not an archive of any of your posts. It's an archive
of one of Harry Katz's posts.

Actually, what _really_ seems to have Poor Ol' Gutless Scottie's knickers
in a bunch is that the only thing in his "file" is a copy of a post by
Linda Thompson, in which she says in part:

If you were exposing corruption and pointing out people by their names
and deeds, you would have no need to refer to their race or religion.
Their deeds, whatever their race or religion is, speak for themselves.

However, when you blast an entire religious group, i.e., Jews, claiming
they are all "bastards," or, as a group, are all rotten or underhanded,
regardless of how much evidence you have of the crimes of any one or
more individual persons who happen to be Jews, you paint with too broad
a broad brush, and that is bigotted and disgusting and makes you appear
to be a braindead neanderthal or a fed op, and the two are not mutually
exclusive.

Likewise, such claims are readily refuted by proof that many obvious
"bastards" who are quite clearly the source of many of the problems in
this country, are not Jews (or black), whereas, we have many Jewish and
black members of the militias and who are patriots.

Frankly, I think you are an ass, whether you are a fed plant or you
really believe your own ranting.

[...deletia...]

...I can't think of a faster way to see the type of things you
preach be exposed as the nonsense it is, than to insure that you have a
full forum to shout your views at all times for all to hear. So you
would win your bet.

Ouch! That's gotta hurt, Scottie.

JGB

=====================================================================
Jeffrey G. Brown jeff_...@bigfoot.com
"What's going to happen?" "Something wonderful..." -- '2010'

Doc Tavish

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Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

On Wed, 8 Jul 1998 19:26:31 -0500, "Daniel Mittleman"
<da...@cs.depaul.edu> wrote:

>>THE REVISIONISTS HAVE WON

>Dear Clueless Nazi,
>
>You have it all wrong.
>
>>I am not certain, but I think we may be witnessing the
>>gradual fading to black of Nizkor; I would not be at all
>>surprised to see them as an organized group quietly fold
>>their tents and disappear into the night within the next
>>six months or so, although a lot of the more loud-mouthed
>>individuals will still be around and posting
>>on the "playgroups", as you have so aptly
>>designated them.

<snip>

>Second, you are dead wrong about Nizkor's mission.

Nizkor's mission is primarily smear, libel, misrepresent etc. any and
all opposition!

>It is what Ken and others have been saying all along: it is to archive

>and refute the statements of deniers.

I have a very damning bit of evidence how they "archive" people's
words versus how DejaNews archives the words. I want you to read my
example and you actually tell all of us that Nizkor archived my words
even remotely being representative of what I said! They should be
horsewhipped, tarred and feathered and run out of town at the point of
pitch forks. The gall and audacity that a charity supported

organization keeps files on private citizens to smear them is
abhorrent!

>Those are two different actions with slightly different objectives.

>Nizkor archives everything it can find of denier speech because
>the best way to show the deniers are stupid is
>to use their own words.

Yeah how much of my actual words do you see in the following
example?

> Further, there is so much lying and deceit in the messages of the
>deniers

My example shows Nizkor as being the liars and deceitful.

> that an archival record is a valuable tool
>to demonstrate their duplicity.

DejaNews is the true archive- it preserves all. Nizkor's "archives"
are mainly comments on posts that have been made. Much like the Talmud
making comment on the Old Testament- they twist and distort!

>Nizkor (and others) refute denier claims so that naive readers who happen
>on to a.r and other such fora can see denier claims for what they are.

As for your claim: "Nizkor archives everything it can find of

denier speech because the best way to show the deniers are stupid is

to use their own words." how much of my own words do you see in this
file that Nizkor has concerning me?

Xref: http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=369414363
"Nizkor's Method of Debate - Character Assassination. This Example
Shows Their Version on File at Nizkor With What was Actually Said as
Documented by DejaNews!"

Today's date July 7, 1998

NIZKOR Archives show:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/t/people/k/katz.harry/1998/katz.9806

Venomous McTavish spews:

--
Harry Katz

Well lurkers how much of my original post do you see? How much of my
material is debated and how much personal attack is made? What kind of
an impression will you get of me from Nizkor? Keep in mind the last
line that Harry Katz says in relationship to "young stuff" and at the
end I'll show you how he quotes this out of context.

Here is what was posted and what Nizkor will not even attempt to
refute and please notice the sources.

http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=359321207

Subject: Re: Jews View Themselves as "Equals" to God - Hence
Their "Choseness"

From: doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com (Doc Tavish)
Date: 1998/06/04
Message-ID: <3575e5c5....@news.flash.net>

On 1 Jun 98 04:47:50 GMT, ya...@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>> Steve Mock <sm...@veritas.nizkor.org> writes:
>> Sonnyboy McTavish wrote:

Xref: http://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=343752940
"What Two Jewish Torah Organizations 'Say' Concerning Gentiles"

http://www.torah.org/learning/halacha/S20.html

Siman 20 . The Laws of buying and selling a Tallis

>> > 20.1: If one buys a ready made Tallis (ie with Tzitzis) (1) from a Jew
>> > (2) or from a non-Jewish merchant {who claims that he bought it (3)
>> > from a trustworthy Jew} [the Tallis] is Kosher. [We can assume that
>> > the non-Jewish merchant] is telling the truth based on the presumption
>> > that (4) he would not jeopardize his livelihood [by telling a lie and
>> > risking being found out].
>
>> > {In other words the Jews know they can intimidate the Non-Jew
>> > merchant with a loss of his means of living if the Non-Jew were to
>> > anger the Jews! Tavish comment.}

>> What does it have to do with intimidation? A merchant who is found to lie about
>> his products will lose business. How hard is that to understand?

That is very easy to understand but for your Jews to imply that a
non-merchant non-Jew can't be intimidated shows their bigotry! Just
look below at the next sentence group from the Jewish web site!

> And how many non-Jewish Tallith merchants do YOU know?

It doesn't matter! They could have been speaking of widgets but the
bigotry would have still been there!

The Jewish web site continued:
>> > However, if one buys the Tallis from a non-Jew who is not a merchant,
>> > (5) [the Tallis] is invalid.
>
>> > {In other words the Jews know that their intimidation won't work on
>> > the Non-Jew who is not a merchant! Tavish comment.}

> Apparently "Tavish" believes that there a buch of non-Jews out there peddling
>Talliths on the streetcorner where he bought his genuine Rolex watch for $5.00.

>> What kind of intimidation? Some of us call it the free enterprise system, and
>> some of us still think that it works pretty good.

>> > {In other words the Jews know they can intimidate the Non-Jew
>> > merchant with a loss of his means of living if the Non-Jew were to
>> > anger the Jews! Tavish comment.}

>> So Jews won't buy from people who lie about their products. The nerve!

NO, they won't do business with someone they know they can't
intimidate! That is the whole key to the argument!

Your weak attempts to disguise obvious Jewish bigotry toward non-Jews
is rather comical to say the least! How about trying to dodge the
bigotry of this info:

From the same post as the above entry-

http://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=343752940
"What Two Jewish Torah Organizations 'Say' Concerning Gentiles"

I want you two to make excuses for this bigotry and lurkers when
non-Jew is mentioned this means YOU unless you are "The Chosen[TM]"
and then it is acceptable to be a bigot, a racist and a separatist.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/dafyomi2/insites/ch-dt-63.htm

[ ... ]

MAY WE TRUST A NON-JEW WHEN BUYING EGGS?

(a) The Gemara rules that we may buy eggs from a Non-Jew if he tells
us that they are from a specific kosher bird. We need not be concerned
that perhaps the eggs were taken from a bird which is a Neveilah or
Treifah. RASHI (DH Shel) and the RAMBAN explain that we can trust the
word of the non-Jew since he knows that we can easily check if this
egg indeed looks like the egg of the bird he claims it is from, and
therefore the non-Jew will not lie.

(b) The RAMBAM (Hilchos Maacholos Assuros 3:18;19) had a different
reading of the text, according to which our Sugya is not dealing with
a Non-Jew but rather with a Jew who is of unknown credibility. Such a
Jew would only be believed if he singled out the species of bird from
which his eggs came. A Non-Jew, however, would not be believed even if
he told us from which bird these eggs came.

{Notice the bigotry toward Non-Jews with Rambam: "A Non-Jew, however,
would not be believed even if he told us from which bird these eggs
came." In other words; NOT one single Non-Jew may ever be believed or
trusted. Tavish comment.}

This article is provided as part of Shema Yisrael Torah Network
Permission is granted to redistribute electronically or on paper,
provided that this notice is included intact.
For information on subscriptions, archives, and other Shema Yisrael
Classes, send mail to d...@shemayisrael.co.il

Shema Yisrael Torah Network
ad...@shemayisrael.co.il
http://www.shemayisrael.co.il
Jerusalem, Israel
972-2-532-4191

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Have any of you ever seen anything more prejudicial and bigoted than
the material above that speaks in the name of G-d? If this was a white
group speaking of blacks in this manner there would be an outcry as

such as never imagined! This is one group that is speaking this

against all the rest of mankind!!! Open your eyes and see!

Doc Tavish (A Voice Crying in the Wilderness)

Notice they even snipped my concluding remarks:

>> > Have any of you ever seen anything more prejudicial and bigoted than
>> > the material above that speaks in the name of G-d? If this was a white
>> > group speaking of blacks in this manner there would be an outcry as
>> > such as never imagined!

>> What an ignorant bigot...

It is funny that your kind always calls those that point out your
prejudice bigots!

> You just noticed?

Your clowning won't be an acceptable answer always Yale. As more
people see your crowd for what they are they won't be laughing one
bit!

>
> --YFE

~~End of Archival DejaNews Posting #1~~

I ask now lurkers- did Nizkor represent me fairly at all? Remember
this is an organiztion that keeps files on private citizens. I take
their file at the top as an attempt to misrepresent what I posted and
to smear me! Now I will show where Harry Katz got the expression of
"young stuff" that he used to smear me as he said (as archived at
Nizkor): "Make that "whining" instead of "crying!" I love the

Biblical reference coming from a man who boasts that he likes
"young stuff!""

Notice in the post below as you noticed in the post above- all my
opposition can do is name call and heckle!

I used that term in a post which follows that shows the Jewish Talmud
permitting Jewish men to have sex with three year old girls! You won't
find this post at Nizkor in its full form but at DejaNews you can see
it unedited by radical leftist socialists. Here is DejaNews:

http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=348866097
Subject: >Jewish Males Crave Those Three Year Old "Women" (was
From History of the Jews- Talmudism (As Written by Jews))<
From: doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com (Doc Tavish)
Date: 1998/04/29
Message-ID: <3547a151....@news.tavish-central.net>

On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 23:57:25 GMT, "Ian McKinney" <i...@usaor.net>
wrote:

>Allan Matthews <allan_m...@bigfoot.com> wrote in article
><MPG.f7c9ff66...@news.shore.net>...
>> In article <3512c4fc....@news.smart1.net>, "Sieg Heil" Scottie
>> Bradbury, cowering patheticly behind doc_t...@nonspam.bigfoot.com,
>> spews...

Anyone wanting 100% positive proof that Atheist Comrade Allan Matthews
is a neo-socialist sympathizer need only to click for positive proof:

http://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=335428368
"I Know Who Supports Socialists Now! This Explains Why Allan Matthews
Likes the Propagators of Socialism So Much!"

From Comrade Matthews' "Good Guys" links you can leave Allan's web
page to visit the Democratic Socialists of America and from links
within you can learn some of their "fight songs" too! Here is but a
sample of what ol' Comrade Matthews and his fellow lefties sing around
the ol' bon fire at their rallies:

Red Revolution

(to the tune of "When the Red, Red Robbin, Comes Bob, Bob Bobbin
Along" author: Ruy Texeira, Madison DSOC and/or Rick Kunnes, former
NAM Organizational Secretary 1979-1981)

When the Red Revolution
Brings Its Solution
Along, Along

There'll be no more lootin'
When we start shootin'
That Wall Street throng

Wake up you proletarians
Don't act like seminarians
Expropriate Barbarians
Build a Workers' Republic

Exploitation and Degradation
You Won't Find Here
Surplus Value and Capital Will Disappear

I'm Just a Red again,
Saying what I've said again,
When the Red Revolution... da, da, da, da
Brings Its Solution...da, da, da, da, da
A long

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are You Sleeping, Bourgeoisie

Traditional American song, sung in rounds to the tune of "Frere
Jacques".

Are you sleeping, Are you sleeping,
Bourgeoisie, Bourgeoisie,
And when the revolution comes,
We'll kill you all with knives and guns,
Bourgeoisie, Bourgeoisie

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bourgeoisie, Bourgeoisie, See How They Run

Usually sung in rounds after "Are You Sleeping, Bourgeoisie". Sung to
the tune of "Three Blind Mice".

Bourgeoisie, Bourgeoisie,
See how they run,
See how they run

And when the revolution comes,
We'll kill them all with knives and guns,
Bourgeoisie, Bourgeoisie

~~~~~~~~End~~~~~~~~~

All the above can be found at Allan Matthew's "Good Guy" site.

Just click this link and you'll be transported to an archive that will
let you explore the true nature of Atheistic, unAmerican, Anti-Christ
Comrade Allan Matthews aka Baby Killer:

http://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=335428368

The above link contains many hours of research to bring all documented
proof that can be collectively used against the haters of all mankind!

To see why I accurately call Comrade Matthews a Baby Killer you only
need to click this link:

http://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=328978346
"Apologist for Infanticide Passes Hypocritical Judgment on Others!
Allan Matthews Has No Shame!"

>> >Please note also the Talmud contains a book called the Sanhedrin and it
>> >is filled with blasphemous statements against Jesus

>> They're only blasphemous if you're Christian, Scottie. These guys were
>> Jews. To them Jesus was the blasphemer. I would have thought that even
>> a 6th grade drop out and low-grade moron like you would be able to
>> comprehend that.

Click: http://x5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=336037075
To see what I had posted and what Comrade Matthews totally excised
from his reply. Notice that Comrade Matthews still can only make
personal attacks and he has yet to refute my ideas!

>Of course, we can't forget all the vile commentary in the Talmud regarding
>gentiles. I suppose you'd defend that by saying "These guys were Jews. To
>them gentiles are animals."

Speaking of the Talmud-- did you know it allows Jews to do things to
little girls? Well it does! Lookey here:

From the desk of William Wallace McTavish:

From:
The Babylonian Talmud
Translated into English by Rabbi Dr. I. Epstein
London
The Soncino Press 1935

[Note: When you see something such as {3}, this means a numbered
footnote for further reference. Words and phrases in ( ) are as the
appeared in the Talmud, in ( )s. W.W.M.]

<Yebamoth 60b on page 402 of above Talmud>:
It was taught: Rabbi Simeon b. Yohai stated: A proselyte who is under
the age of three years and one day is permitted to marry a priest, for
it is said, "But all the women children that have not known man by
lying with him, keep alive for yourselves {3}" and Phineas {4} surely
was with them. And the Rabbis? {5}- (These were kept alive) as bondmen
and bondwomen. {6} If so, {7} a proselyte whose age is three years and
one day {8} should also be permitted!- (The prohibition is to be
explained) in accordance with Rabbi Huna. For Rabbi Huna pointed out
the contradiction: It is written "Kill every woman that hath known man
by lying with him {9}, but if she hath not known, save her alive;"
from this it may be inferred that children are to be kept alive
whether they have known or not known (a man); and, on the other hand,
it is also written, 'But all the women children, that have not known
man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves' {3}, but do not
spare them if they have known. Consequently {10} it must be said that
Scripture speaks of one {11} who is fit for cohabitation. {12}

Footnotes to above:
{3} Numbers 31, 18
{4} Who was a priest.
{5} How could they, contrary to the opinion of Rabbi Simeon b. Yohai,
which has scriptural support, forbid the marriage of the young
proselyte?
{6} Not for matrimony.
{7} That according to Rabbi Simeon, Numbers 31, 18 refers to
matrimony.
{8} So long as she has "not known a man."
{9} Numbers 31, 17
{10} To reconcile the contradiction.
{11} I.e. one who had attained the age of three years and one day.
{12} Not one who had actually experienced it.

For the Numbers 31, 17-18 passages we will use:
CHUMASH Intelligent Concept Search
which is at: http://www.mnemotrix.com/texis/vtx/chumash

and enter into the search engine windows Numbers Chapter 31 and scroll
down to get the Torah scriptures and you will see after downloading
and scrolling down:

Numbers CHAPTER 31

31 : 7 They mounted a surprise attack against Midian as God had
commanded Moses, and killed all the [adult] males.
31 : 8 Along with the other victims, they also killed the five kings
of Midian: Evi, Rekem, Tzur, Chur, and Reva, the five Midianite kings.
They also killed Balaam son of Beor by the sword.
31 : 9 The Israelites took captive all the women of Midian and their
children. They took as booty all their animals, all their possessions,
and all their wealth.
31 : 10 [The Israelites] also set fire to all their residential cities
and fortresses,
31 : 11 taking all the booty and plunder, both man and beast.
31 : 12 They brought the captives, the plunder, and the spoils to
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and the entire Israelite community, [who
were] in the Western Plains of Moab, on the Jericho Jordan.
31 : 13 Moses, Eleazar and all the community princes went out to greet
them outside the camp.
31 : 14 However, Moses was angry at the generals and captains, who
were the officers returning from the military campaign.
31 : 15 "Why have you kept all the women alive?" demanded Moses.
31 : 16 "These are exactly the ones who were involved with the
Israelites at Balaam's instigation, causing them to be unfaithful to
God in the Peor incident, and bringing a plague on God's community.
31 : 17 Now kill every male child, as well as every woman who has been
involved intimately with a man.
31 : 18 However, all the young girls who have not been involved
intimately with a man, you may keep alive for yourselves.

Sources:
The Torah translation you are reading is taken from
The Living Torah, by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan
The Hebrew Torah text linked to this Intelligent Search
is provided by and under the responsibility of
The World ORT Union

This Intelligent Chumash Search is provided by Mnemotrix Systems,
Inc., in memory of the cherished neshama.

[I included more than Numbers 31, 17-18 to show what was taking place
at the time. Notice that Moses is mentioned and that he is angry too!
I now ask: who was going to examine these young girls? To be honest we
all know that a genital inspection would be required! Remember the key
is "young girls." W.W.M.]

William Wallace McTavish

~~~~~~ End of Archived Message ~~~~~~

The following was from a reply post and it further amplifies Jewish
male cravings for toddler females!

http://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=314100389

[...]

On 7 Jan 1998 , jher...@ix.netcom.com(Joseph Hertzlinger) wrote:
>Let's see. First the Rabbis point out that Simeon b. Yohai was talking
>through his yarmulke. Then they point out that the marriage to the said
>three-year-old girl need not be consummated immediately. This is
>supposed to prove approval of pederasty.

Does this suit you better?

<Sanhedrin 55b on page 376 in above Talmud>:
Rabbi Joseph said: Come and hear! A maiden aged three years and one
day may be acquired in marriage by coition... If she married a priest,
she may eat of terumah; {3} ^^^^^^^

[Coition means having the sex act and notice please that the age is at
three years and one day! I do not see any Brady Bill type of a waiting
period for consumation. Do you? Gunther Schiller]

Footnote:
{3} As the law of an Israelite's (adult) daughter who married a
priest. But if she is less than three years old, although the
Kiddushin accepted on her behalf by her father is valid, yet since she
is sexually immature, the marriage cannot be consumated, and hence she
is not thereby enabled to eat the terumah.

The footnotes {3} and {4} for Sanhedrin 54b on Talmud volume page 371
say:
{3} At nine years a male attains sexual matureness.
{4} Lev. XVIII, 22 Thus the point of comparison is the
sexual matureness of woman is reached at the age of three.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Are you going to deny this as well? Come on now and face reality! If
the Talmud says "sexual matureness of woman is reached at the age of
three" is anyone going to believe what you said: "they point out that
the marriage to the said three-year-old girl need not be consummated
immediately." If she is considered to be sexaully mature at the age of
three then why would any groom put off consumating the marriage?

Read the Footnote again (as shown above):
{3} As the law of an Israelite's (adult) daughter who married a
priest. But if she is less than three years old, although the
Kiddushin accepted on her behalf by her father is valid, yet since she
is sexually immature, the marriage cannot be consumated, and hence she
is not thereby enabled to eat the terumah.

Please note why the marriage can NOT be consumated- "if she is less
than three years old" and "since she is sexually immature, the
marriage cannot be consumated."

You Talmudic "scholars" amaze me with your hucksterism! Now I know why
Jesus spoke of the Talmudists of his day as "The blind leading the
blind." Matthew 15: 14

For about the third time, I do sincerely thank you deeply for helping
me prove my point though!

~~~~~ End of Archived Reply Posting~~~~~

As a further note, if Jews didn't have hangups about sex with three
year old girls then why is this on the web?

http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5757/achrei.html

SELECTED HALACHOS RELATING TO PARSHAS ACHREI

Hilchos Yichud: Rulings of HaRav Feinstein
By Rabbi Doniel Neustadt

[...]

HILCHOS YICHUD: RULINGS OF HARAV M. FEINSTEIN

This verse is cited by most of the early authorities as the Biblical
source for the halachos of yichud, the prohibition against a man being
alone in a secluded place with a woman. The laws of yichud are complex
and detailed and the opinions of the poskim are diverse and
contradictory. This discussion will focus exclusively on the rulings
of Harav Moshe Feinstien, one of the greatest halachic authorities of
our generation....

AT WHAT AGE DOES THE PROHIBITION OF YICHUD BEGIN AND END?

A man over thirteen is prohibited to be alone with a girl over three.
Under extenuating circumstances, it is permitted to be alone with a
girl till the age of seven (5).

A woman over twelve may not be alone with a boy over nine.

Footnote:

5 Oral ruling by Harav M. Feinstein (quoted in Children in Halachah
pg. 40) based on the rational presented in Igros Moshe EH 4:65-12,
where, in the final analysis, Harav Feinstein is hesitant to permit
this. He writes, however, that he would not object to those who are
lenient.

~~~~~~~~~~END~~~~~~~~~~

".... any decision regarding the Jewish religion must be based on the
TALMUD as the final resume...." "The JEWS - Their History, Culture,
and Religion", Vol. 4, p. 1332, Jewish Publication Society of America

"The TALMUD is to this day the circulting heart's blood of the Jewish
religion. Whatever laws, customs or ceremonies we observe- whether we
are Orthodox, Conservative, Reform or merely spasmodic
sentimentalists-we follow the TALMUD. It is our common law."
THE TALMUD; HEART'S BLOOD of the JEWISH FAITH
by Herman Wouk which also ran serially in the (11/17/59)
New York Herald Tribune

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am now 48 years old and I must admit I like "young stuff" too BUT I
draw the line at 21 years of age!

Doc Tavish

BTW anyone wanting to know about Jews, dog sex and Talmud need only to
click: http://x8.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=314084525

To see Jews condone homosexuality just click:
http://x8.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=334706010

After anyone reads all of the above and confronts reality that the
info came from Jewish sources then they will realize why so many
people have called them filth and dirty.

~~End of DejaNews Archival Posting #2~~

Well folks did you see my reference to "young stuff" at the end? How
many of you can see the difference in the way I applied it with what I
posted to how Harry Katz had me using it? Now you all should now see
why I detest Nizkor and its operatives to the degree I do.

I won't show Harry Katz's posts in reply but I will give you all the
links that will take you to his apologia. See, I will let you see ALL
that they say BUT you won't ever see them doing the same in kind! Who
is really the loser and who really lacks in the arena of ideas?

http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=360905084
Subject: McTavish Repeats His Stale, Old Slanders
From: Harry Katz <Harry...@mci.com>
Date: 1998/06/09
Message-ID: <357CB75E...@mci.com>

http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=357381469
Subject: Doc Tavish's Lurid Imagination -- Part Two
From: Harry Katz <Harry...@mci.com>
Date: 1998/05/28
Message-ID: <356DB686...@mci.com>

=========================

I invite all others thus victimized by Nizkook to do as I did- get
examples of what Nizkook has you saying and then the DejaNews
archive that really shows what you have said. This will kill the
worthless vermin quick!

Doc Tavish

"Those that continually chunk rocks at hornet's nest must not
cry when they eventually get stung." -- Sukiyaki Hashimoto

Electric Zen

unread,

Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 02:20:13 GMT, doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com (Doc
Tavish) wrote:

>I have a very damning bit of evidence how they "archive" people's
>words versus how DejaNews archives the words. I want you to read my
>example and you actually tell all of us that Nizkor archived my words
>even remotely being representative of what I said!

Actually, I just has a quick peek and didn't see you archived at
Nizkor at all. Seems your second-rate bigoted trash doesn't even
deserve a mention.

>They should behorsewhipped, tarred and feathered and run out of town at the point of

>pitch forks. The gall and audacity that a charity supported
>organization keeps files on private citizens to smear them is
>abhorrent!

Yes, how _all_ you fruitloops hate to have your statemnts kept about
posterity. BTW, how do you feel about Dejanews?

>Yeah how much of my actual words do you see in the following
>example?

Well, none that I can see. Nizkor must only archive the more
intelligent bigots. Ken always was a selective person.

Amazing what fear a web site strikes in your heart!

Doc Tavish

unread,

Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

On Wed, 8 Jul 1998 19:26:31 -0500, "Daniel Mittleman"
<da...@cs.depaul.edu> wrote:

>>THE REVISIONISTS HAVE WON

>Dear Clueless Nazi,
>
>You have it all wrong.
>
>>I am not certain, but I think we may be witnessing the
>>gradual fading to black of Nizkor; I would not be at all
>>surprised to see them as an organized group quietly fold
>>their tents and disappear into the night within the next
>>six months or so, although a lot of the more loud-mouthed
>>individuals will still be around and posting
>>on the "playgroups", as you have so aptly
>>designated them.

<snip>

>Second, you are dead wrong about Nizkor's mission.

Nizkor's mission is primarily smear, libel, misrepresent etc. any and
all opposition!

>It is what Ken and others have been saying all along: it is to archive

>and refute the statements of deniers.

I have a very damning bit of evidence how they "archive" people's

words versus how DejaNews archives the words. I want you to read my
example and you actually tell all of us that Nizkor archived my words

even remotely being representative of what I said! They should be

horsewhipped, tarred and feathered and run out of town at the point of
pitch forks. The gall and audacity that a charity supported
organization keeps files on private citizens to smear them is
abhorrent!

>Those are two different actions with slightly different objectives.

>Nizkor archives everything it can find of denier speech because
>the best way to show the deniers are stupid is
>to use their own words.

Yeah how much of my actual words do you see in the following
example?

> Further, there is so much lying and deceit in the messages of the
>deniers

My example shows Nizkor as being the liars and deceitful.

> that an archival record is a valuable tool
>to demonstrate their duplicity.

DejaNews is the true archive- it preserves all. Nizkor's "archives"

are mainly comments on posts that have been made. Much like the Talmud
making comment on the Old Testament- they twist and distort!

>Nizkor (and others) refute denier claims so that naive readers who happen

>on to a.r and other such fora can see denier claims for what they are.

As for your claim: "Nizkor archives everything it can find of

denier speech because the best way to show the deniers are stupid is

to use their own words." how much of my own words do you see in this
file that Nizkor has concerning me?

........................................................

In the following see how much abuse I receive, all the name calling
used against me and take note they do not refute my material. Tavish
........................................................

http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=220941743
Subject: Attempt to Obfuscate Exposed by Doc Tavish!
From: Doc Tavish <tav...@phoenix.net>
Date: 1997/02/23
Message-ID: <3310DC...@phoenix.net>

Sara aka Perrrfect wrote:
>
> In article <330E30...@phoenix.net>, tav...@phoenix.net wrote:
>
> [incedibly bizarre ravings deleted]

See below to see what Sara calls "incredibly bizarre ravings" that
have to be deleted! Sara you are a classic when it comes to the truth
hurting! You cannot deny the truth of my post so you obliterate it and
hope that it gets lost in the thread!

Attention lurkers: Here's another diversionary tactic by Nizkor.
Demonize the messenger and kill the message. The message? Bible text,
a book review on Daniel Jonah Goldhagen,s book Hitler' Willing
Executuioners and Nizkor's previous slandering of me and no comment on
the post!
Doc Tavish

> Mr. Tavish:
>
> Please continue these postings. Their rambling and incoherence are a
> perfect example of someone so filled with hate that he/she cannot even
> think straight.
>
> You are the best friend of those opposed to this kind of hatred. You're a
> licing example of what happens when one's mind is so filled with thoughts
> of hate and revenge that his words practically froth.

Why are Bible verses and a comparative book review hateful? Because
the two together show a definite Jewish hypocrisy and that Jews
commited atrocities before Nazis were ever known? The truth hurts and
you and yours can't deal with it!
Doc Tavish

> Thanks,
> Sara
>
> --
> "Crawl back in your hole and stay there. We'll make sure the Net is safe
> for you to breed your contempt in other places. Just don't try it here."
> Brock Meeks, in a public note to Neo-Nazi Ernst Zundel, quoted in
> Internet Workd magazine, 3/97

-------------------------End------------------------------------------

Here is what Sara does not want you, the lurker, to see:

Nizkor Lies and Slanders All Opposition. They keep files on
individuals and they edit them to suit their evil agenda- whatever
that is. I've said what sort of organization tracks private citizens
and keeps files on them?
Look at how they did my post called Nazis Were Not the First in
Atrocities & Cruelty: http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=202933851
Citizens that believe in fair play, all I ask is that you read their
versions and their comment on me as an individual and compare it to
what I had posted. You yourselves decide who's the serpent and the
wicked one. I am not the only person this anti-Christ organization has
done this to.

{The Nizkor version of my post:}

From Mias...@ccnis.net Fri Dec 13 09:04:52 PST 1996
Article: 85360 of alt.revisionism

From: Annie Alpert <Mias...@ccnis.net

Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish Denial of Jewish Holocausts and Atrocities
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 10:01:25 -0500
Organization: IDT

Doc Tavish wrote:

The Nazis Were Not The First In Atrocities & Cruelty!

anti-Semitic ranting and raving snipped

[Since when is the New Testament anti-Semitic ranting and raving
Nizkor?]

Submitted in the name of dissemination of the truth and nothing
but the truth against the anti-Christian hordes that seek the
destruction of gentile culture. Doc Tavish

Oh, great--just what Alt.Revisionism needs. Another wild-eyed
jew-hating homophobe kook prowling the halls. Spare us, Oh Lord!
--
Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/
Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?
European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/

And be sure to check out:
http://www1.us.nizkor.org/~fatbroad

[ people/a/alpert.annie/1996 ]

The Nizkor Project
webm...@nizkor.org
Director: Ken McVay OBC
HTML: Jamie McCarthy

Financial Support
December 14, 1996

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My original post:
{Do any of you believe that New Testament Scriptures
are anti-Semitic ranting and raving to be snipped?
Does reading the Bible make you an anti-Semitic homophobe?}

The Nazis Were Not The First In Atrocities & Cruelty!

The following is an extract of another sort of revisionism that
appeared in a local rag and on Newsweek (Jews Week) on the air.
Compare the Jewish "version" of truth to a separate reality.

1C Houston Chronicle Sunday April 7, 1996 OUTLOOK Editorials
Opinion
(Condensed) By Daniel Jonah Goldhagen (Book review of: Hitler's
Willing Executioners by Daniel Goldhagen)

One day in November 1942, at the height of the Germans' systematic
slaughter of Polish Jewry, men serving in a battalion of about 500
reserve policemen learned that they would be undertaking yet another
genocidal killing, this time of the Jews of Lukow.

That evening, according to one of the battalion members, a peculiar
thing happened: "An entertainment unit of Berlin policemen ... were
our guests. ... The members of this unit had also learned of the
forthcoming shooting of the Jews and indeed offered, even pleaded
emphatically, for permission to participate in the execution of these
Jews." These entertainers, like so many other ordinary Germans,
willingly killed Jews.

Contrary to what is commonly believed, the Germans who executed Jews
were not exclusively a select group of Nazi fanatics, not only members
of the SS but also tens of thousands of ordinary Germans from all
walks of life. The Nazi authorities, apparently acting on the
assumption that any able-bodied German would consent to kill Jews,
assigned virtually anyone who was available to the task.

Their assumption was borne out. In December 1941, the leadership of
seven regional Protestant churches in Germany issued a proclamation
that declared the Jews, owing to their putative racial constitution,
to be incapable of being saved by baptism and said they were the "born
enemies of the world and Germany." It urged that the "severest
measures against the Jews be adopted." The killers' anti-Semitism also
explains why, with exceptions, the Germans typically acted with zeal,
brutalizing and torturing their victims. As one police battalion
member testified: "I must first and foremost state categorically that
whenever the superior requested them, there were enough volunteers for
execution squads."........ (end of news text)

Doc Tavish writes:
Mr. Goldhagen should know reliable records exist that detail the mass
murder and torture of Christians by Jews! The Jews were doing their
dirty work before Germany was known as a nation and Adolf Hitler was
known as a person.

Please consider the following: John 18:31-35 At this Pilate said, "Why
do you not take him (Jesus) and pass judgement on him according to
your law?" "We may not put anyone to death," the Jews answered. Pilate
went back to the praetorium and summoned Jesus. "Are you the King of
the Jews?" he asked him. Jesus answered, "Are you saying this on your
own, or have others been telling you about me?" "I am no Jew!" Pilate
retorted. "It is your own people and the chief priests who have handed
you over to me." [Thus it is established the Jews used the
governmental powers of their day to have Jesus put to death.] Acts
22:22-25,30 Up to this point in his speech the crowd had been
listening to (the Apostle) Paul, but now they began to shout, "Kill
him! Rid the earth of the likes of him! He isn't worthy to live!" They
yelled and waved their cloaks and flung dirt through the air. At that
display, the commander directed Paul be brought inside the
headquarters. He issued the order that Paul be examined under the lash
to find out why they had made such an outcry against him. No sooner
had they bound Paul than he said to the centurion who was standing by,
"Is it legal flog (whip) a Roman citizen without trial?"... The next
day the commander released Paul from prison, intending to look
carefully into the charge which the Jews were bringing against him.
Acts 8:1,3 ...That day saw the beginning of a great persecution of the
church in Jerusalem. ...Saul began to harass the church. He entered
house after house, dragged men and women out, and threw them in jail.
Acts 9:1,2 Saul, still breathing murderous threats against the Lord's
disciples, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the
synagogue in Damascus which would empower him to arrest and bring to
Jerusalem anyone he might find, man or woman, living according to the
new way (Christians). Acts 12:1-4 During that period, King Herod
started to harass some members of the church. He beheaded James the
brother of John, and when he saw that this pleased certain of the
Jews, he took (the Apostle) Peter into custody too. Matthew 23:
2,7,8,13,33,34 Then Jesus told the crowds and his disciples: "The
scribes and the Pharisees have succeeded Moses as teachers...
Their words are bold but their deeds are few. They bind up heavy
loads, hard to carry, to lay on other men's shoulders's while they
themselves will not lift a finger to budge them. They are fond of
marks of respect in public and of being called 'Rabbi.' As to you,
avoid the title 'Rabbi.' Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, you frauds!
Viper's nest! Brood of serpents! For this reason I shall send you
prophets and wise men and scribes. Some you will kill and crucify,
others you will flog (whip) in your synagogues and hunt down from city
to city. [Jews were hunting Christians down long before Germany was
known!]

Doc Tavish writes:
If Jews wish to complain of why there aren't (m)any Jews in Polish
villages and German towns then I wish to ask them, "Where are the
Christians in Israel?" Israel was the birth place of Christianity!
Consider the facts: The World Almanac And Book Of Facts 1996, Funk and
Wagnalls (page 775) tells us this of Israel: They have a population of
5,142,834. Ethnicity is Jewish 83%, non-Jewish (mostly Arabs) 17%.
Religions: Jewish 82%, Muslim 14% , (4% not accounted for).

Let Jews whine and wail all they wish about European life in 1928-1945
all they want for they have had their numerous holocausts on gentile
nations for thousands of years with millions more victims. If it was
wrong for the Germans to refer to themselves as the master race then
why is it kosher for Jews to claim they are the chosen race? If the
Germans were wrong for killing those that did not meet their standards
of culture then are Jews any better for killing those that had a
different religion?

Jews are the world's true hypocrites and cry babies and all of those
that expose their lies wind up dead or else the victim of some other
sort of knavery. Remember Jesus told the Jewish leaders of their day,
face to face that they were the "spawn of Satan" John 8:44 and look
what they did to Jesus- should Aryans expect any better consideration
from these terrorist hordes?

[The Bible texts plainly show that Jews, instead of Nazis, pioneered
the acts of dragging people from their houses, having them thrown in
prison, whipped and put to death.]

Submitted in the name of dissemination of the truth and nothing but
the truth against the anti-Christian hordes that seek the destruction
of gentile culture.
Doc Tavish

All of the above is what Sara and Nizkor don't want you to see! Forget
about my commentary. Just consider which carries more weight Hitler's
Willing Executioners or the Bible? Which author is more credible? The
Bible writers or Daniel Goldhagen? These are the things you must
consider NOT the slanders by Sara and Nizkor!

~~~~End Of Archival DejaNews Posting #1~~~~~

Here is Nizkor's own Annie Alpert "commenting" on my post. How much of
my factual material do you see intact?

http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=203706149
Subject: Re: Jewish Denial of Jewish Holocausts and Atrocities
From: Annie Alpert <Mias...@ccnis.net>
Date: 1996/12/12
Message-ID: <32B01E...@ccnis.net>

Doc Tavish wrote:
>
> The Nazis Were Not The First In Atrocities & Cruelty!

anti-Semitic ranting and raving snipped

> Submitted in the name of dissemination of the truth and nothing
> but the truth against the anti-Christian hordes that seek the
> destruction of gentile culture. Doc Tavish

Oh, great--just what Alt.Revisionism needs. Another wild-eyed
jew-hating homophobe kook prowling the halls. Spare us, Oh Lord!
--
Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource

~~End of Archival DejaNews Posting #2~~

Notice that Annie Alpert referred to me as a homophobe among otjher
petty insults. Where in the post do I make any reference to
homosexuals? See what I mean about how they smear? BTW the post above
by Alpert is the "file" Nizkor has on me to expose my "stupidity"-
strange how they didn't leave in the meat of my post isn't it?

Doc Tavish

unread,

Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 02:25:00 GMT, elect...@nospam.bigfoot.com
(Electric Zen) wrote:

>On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 02:20:13 GMT, doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com (Doc
>Tavish) wrote:

>>I have a very damning bit of evidence how they "archive" people's
>>words versus how DejaNews archives the words. I want you to read my
>>example and you actually tell all of us that Nizkor archived my words
>>even remotely being representative of what I said!

>Actually, I just has a quick peek and didn't see you archived at

>Nizkor at all. Seems your second-rate bigoted trash doesn't even
>deserve a mention.

What do you call this you lying little piece of filth? Is that link or
is it not a Nizkor link? I just got this the other day! No wonder why
your kind have been so thoroughly despised by so many for so long. You
bastards lack the humility to admit you've been bested. Is this just
another proof that the Kol Nidre allows you Yids to lie and have a
clean conscience? Lurkers here is what Jews have written about the art
of lying- the Kol Nidre: http://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=358303559

Now back to the actual Nizkor archive that Kike Lewis denies at the
moment:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/t/people/k/katz.harry/1998/katz.9806

Venomous McTavish spews:

--
Harry Katz

BTW lurkers there is more than one misrepresentaion of what I post at
that one Nizkor link than what I presented above! The link is active
right now 7/8/98 10:08 p.m. csdst.

>>They should be horsewhipped, tarred and feathered and run out of
>>town at the point of pitch forks. The gall and audacity that a charity supported
>>organization keeps files on private citizens to smear them is
>>abhorrent!

>Yes, how _all_ you fruitloops hate to have your statemnts kept about

>posterity. BTW, how do you feel about Dejanews?

I am not at all ashamed of what I said above. When enough people catch
on it to you all being nothing more than "snake oil salesmen" it will
be you all ashamed of all of your patently well known Jewish
sneakiness.

>>Yeah how much of my actual words do you see in the following
>>example?

>Well, none that I can see. Nizkor must only archive the more

>intelligent bigots. Ken always was a selective person.

I know that =both you and he have apologia for homosexuals!

>Amazing what fear a web site strikes in your heart!

You're all mouth and smear but the link above proves you wrong not
unless you lil' bastards work over time to get it out tonight!

Doc Tavish
................................................................................................................
"Eye for eye, wound for wound, and blow for blow..(Ex 21:24,25)" Jews
haven't received one thing they haven't already dealt out to others.

Doc Tavish

unread,

Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 02:25:00 GMT, elect...@nospam.bigfoot.com
(Electric Zen) wrote:

>On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 02:20:13 GMT, doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com (Doc
>Tavish) wrote:

>>I have a very damning bit of evidence how they "archive" people's
>>words versus how DejaNews archives the words. I want you to read my
>>example and you actually tell all of us that Nizkor archived my words
>>even remotely being representative of what I said!
>

>Actually, I just has a quick peek and didn't see you archived at
>Nizkor at all. Seems your second-rate bigoted trash doesn't even
>deserve a mention.

From the same Nizkor link that Ken Lewis says doesn't exist:
[Be sure to keep your eyes on the message ID of:
<3575dd8b....@news.flash.net>]

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/t/people/k/katz.harry/1998/katz.9806

(Today's date is July 8, 1998 Tavish)

From Harry...@mci.com Sun Jun 14 21:22:40 EDT 1998
Message-ID: <357F1B0F...@mci.com>

From: Harry Katz <Harry...@mci.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U)

MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: Links To Documented Postings Concerning a Hidden
Holocaust
References: <35717...@news3.enter.net>
<3571be78....@news.tavish-central.net>
<jeff_brown-02...@1cust23.tnt10.det3.da.uu.net>
<3575be19....@news.flash.net>
<techer-0306...@tempe-71-243.abilnet.com>
<3575dd8b....@news.flash.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:50:10 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.37.29.249
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:50:10 GMT

Doc Tavish spews:

Try convincing your leaders that their ancestors were wrong
for assassinating the Czar and his entire family and going on the
most blood spilling spree of all time!

Katz:
No Jewish leaders have any ancestors who "assassinated the Czar and
his entire family" or went on any "blood spilling spree!" and Mr.
McTavish has not, and cannot, prove otherwise.

Again you get no sympathy from me.

Katz:
What a surprise! The man who spends all of his spare time distorting
historical documents to enflame anyone and everyone against the Jewish
people, has no sympathy for the suffering that he inflicts on us!

If you had admitted that the info is true and felt remorse and
admitted the wrongdoing then that would be an entirely
different matter!

Katz:
Indeed! It would be admitting to a lie!

--
Harry Katz

~~~~ Nizkor Version of My Post and What I Said ~~~~

Note: I added the "Katz:" to show his speaking and not me. Nizkor's
version does not have this. I did so for clarity of who is speaking.

Here is the actual unvarnished version of my post. You all decide who
used documented evidence such as one gets from U.S. Gov't archives and
who relied on sound bites and smear! BTW compare the message ID to my
original post below and you will see that Katz's links right up to
mine! Look for this ID: <3575dd8b....@news.flash.net>
It shows as the last one in Katz's version of what I said above!

http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=359316543
Subject: Re: Links To Documented Postings Concerning a Hidden
Holocaust

From: doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com (Doc Tavish)
Date: 1998/06/04

Message-ID: <3575dd8b....@news.flash.net>

On 3 Jun 1998 23:44:22 -0600, tec...@abilnet.com (michael oppenheimer)
wrote:

>The articles below are all so called justification stories.

Justification stories my eye. Is this why Jewry is afraid to admit
their bloodguilt because they think the Germans would be justified in
what they did? I can see your concern but remember it was also Jews
agitating for Communism in Germany before Hitler was known too! I
would say that this would be a contributing factor to the backlash as
well.

Do you have the audacity to deny what United States Gov't Sites and
other credible sources show about the Soviet Bolshevik State? You are
truly pathetic indeed and intellectually dishonest. Your racial
brethren hold the German noses to the grind stone BUT you all can't
stand to have it proved irrefutably that the most murderous regime on
Earth had Jewish foundations. I HAVE NO SYMPATHY FOR YOUR KIND.
You are cowards and you hide behind acts of others to cover your own
deplorable acts.

>they are
>claimming that certain individuals that might have been jewish are
>responsible for mass killings.

Going by your standards then the German populace isn't guilty of mass
murder either even though their hierarchy were German. Now that has
been established when is your tribe going to desist from trying to
extort money from the German citizenry of today just because Nazis
were German?

> By claimming these incents took place then
>the mass murder of jews (who simply have a different religion) is ok. It
>is not OK. It is not ok when anyone, no matter his or her religion or
>ethnic origian is killed percecuted or treated improperly.

Try convincing your leaders that their ancestors were wrong for
assassinating the Czar and his entire family and going on the most
blood spilling spree of all time! Again you get no sympathy from me.
If you had admitted that the info is true and felt remorse and
admitted the wrongdoing then that would be an entirely different
matter!

>
>In article <3575be19....@news.flash.net>,
>doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 02 Jun 1998 09:51:10 -0400, jeff_...@bigfoot.com (Jeffrey G.
>> Brown) wrote:
>>
>> Lurkers please refer to the following links to see who actually
>> perpetrated the first Holocaust this century and who was behind it as
>> well as who established the first concentration camps. You will then
>> come to appreciate who the true Holocaust Deniers are!

http://x2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=357724383
"Communist Holocaust Killed Tens of Millions of People!"

http://x2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=349098614
"Supplement to Communist Holocaust Killed Tens of Millions of People!"

http://x2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=357476096
"7,000,000 Gentile Ukrainians Starved to Death"

http://x2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=357724396
"Death Count Communism Vs Nazism (Jeff Jacoby Article and UCLA Mirror
Site)"

http://x2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=357724390
"The Hidden HOLOCAUST Waged Against Gentiles by Jews..."

http://x2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=357724406
"Bolshevik Concentration Camps. Original Hells on Earth This 20th
Century (Who Created and Operated Them)"

http://x2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=357094051
"Propaganda Arm for Stalinist Soviet Union - The Jewish Antifascist
Committee (From U.S. Gov't & UCLA Archives - The Soviet Exhibit)"

Try denying what I said in the post just above Michael and you will be
just foolhardy and a denier!

I did say in the post; ""Propaganda Arm for Stalinist Soviet Union -
The Jewish Antifascist Committee (From U.S. Gov't & UCLA Archives -
The Soviet Exhibit)"" the following:

[...]

"I, Doc Tavish, now say: The links above are still functional and
today's date is May 24, 1998. The description above is what the United
States Government said on the opening page- the remarks are NOT mine!
Does any person now wish to continue to deny the heavy involvement of
Jewry in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and its founding?

Here is even more proof of Jewry being directly involved in the
establishment of the Soviet Union. To deny the following and the above
would be as absurd as denying that Germans established and maintained
the National Socialist state or Nazism. We don't see Germans denying
their past BUT we see cowardly and deceitful Jews disavowing all of
the misery that they have wrought on the world with their Marxist
Soviet Socialist State scheme! Most contemptible indeed!"

From the above we learned:
1) First president of the Soviet was a Jew named Yakov
Sverdlov.
2) First chairman of the Soviet state was a Jew named Lev Davidovich
Bronstein aka Leon Trotsky.
3) Head General of Red Army and leader of the Bolshevik Revolution was
the same as number 2!
4) Majority of "leaders: in the Revolution were Jews according to
JEWISHAMERICA.COM as stated: "The Russian
Revolution of the early 20th century will overthrow the Czarist
government and it will be led by a disproportionate number of Jews."

In spite of all of the evidence presented there will still be
Holocaust Deniers and Revisionists who will deny the Holocaust that
Jewry waged against non-Jews on an enormous scale and the Historical
Revisionists will seek to disavow all ties of Jewry with the Soviet
State and Communism.

Doc Tavish

~~~~~~~~~ END ~~~~~~~~

You look pitiful Michael to all of those that read the information the
links above contain.

~~End of Archival & Truthful DejaNews Posting~~

Also see:
http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=362633931
Subject: Re: Links To Documented Postings Concerning a Hidden
Holocaust
From: doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com (Doc Tavish)
Date: 1998/06/14
Message-ID: <35844631....@news.tavish-central.net>

Electric Zen

unread,

Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 03:18:23 GMT, doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com (Doc
Tavish) wrote:

>On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 02:25:00 GMT, elect...@nospam.bigfoot.com
>(Electric Zen) wrote:

>>On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 02:20:13 GMT, doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com (Doc
>>Tavish) wrote:

>>>I have a very damning bit of evidence how they "archive" people's
>>>words versus how DejaNews archives the words. I want you to read my
>>>example and you actually tell all of us that Nizkor archived my words
>>>even remotely being representative of what I said!

>>Actually, I just has a quick peek and didn't see you archived at

>>Nizkor at all. Seems your second-rate bigoted trash doesn't even
>>deserve a mention.

>What do you call this you lying little piece of filth? Is that link or

>is it not a Nizkor link? I just got this the other day! No wonder why
>your kind have been so thoroughly despised by so many for so long. You
>bastards lack the humility to admit you've been bested. Is this just
>another proof that the Kol Nidre allows you Yids to lie and have a
>clean conscience? Lurkers here is what Jews have written about the art
>of lying- the Kol Nidre: http://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=358303559

>Now back to the actual Nizkor archive that Kike Lewis denies at the
>moment:

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/t/people/k/katz.harry/1998/katz.9806

Looks like an archive of a Harry Katz post, not yours.

Electric Zen

unread,

Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 03:45:38 GMT, doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com (Doc
Tavish) wrote:

>On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 02:25:00 GMT, elect...@nospam.bigfoot.com
>(Electric Zen) wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 02:20:13 GMT, doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com (Doc
>>Tavish) wrote:
>
>>>I have a very damning bit of evidence how they "archive" people's
>>>words versus how DejaNews archives the words. I want you to read my
>>>example and you actually tell all of us that Nizkor archived my words
>>>even remotely being representative of what I said!

>>Actually, I just has a quick peek and didn't see you archived at
>>Nizkor at all. Seems your second-rate bigoted trash doesn't even
>>deserve a mention.

>From the same Nizkor link that Ken Lewis says doesn't exist:
>[Be sure to keep your eyes on the message ID of:
><3575dd8b....@news.flash.net>]

You really are a dumb fuck, aren't you, Doc? Have you always had this
problem with reading comprehension?

Here, let me type this real slowly so that 6th grade education of
yours can understand ...

Actually, I just has a quick peek and didn't see you archived at
Nizkor at all.

Notice 'quick peek.'

Now you may get yourself archived under somebody's else post is they
are being archives but you don't rate a directory all to your self
unlike some of the smarter bigots. Being a second stringer you just
get sucked into someone else's archives.

But enough of this Doc. You don't have enough intelligence for
rational discussion.

Let's post something else, shall we?

--
AN HISTORIAN CRITIQUES THE BOOK THE SECRET RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN BLACKS
AND JEWS

by David Walter Leinweber

[David W. Leinweber, Ph.D., Michigan State University 1992, is
Assistant Professor at Oxford College of Emory University. He is a
specialist in ancient religions and teaches European history.]
I recently ordered a copy of the much cited work _The Secret
Relationship between Blacks and Jews_, published by the Nation of
Islam. The book was anonymously prepared by the Historical Research
Department of the Nation of Islam. It came in a plain, brown-paper
wrapper, like illicit Danish pornography.

Since its publication in 1991, the book has enjoyed a steadily growing
infamy. Its defenders largely inhabit the periphery of the academic
and intellectual community, if that. But they are vocal, and visible.
The book's critics are, understandably, legion. Its sloppy scholarship
and myopic historical perspective have ensured that virtually no
competent scholars take it seriously. Few, indeed, have read the book.
Yet most have heard of it. It is, ironically, among the most cited
works of "economic history" published in the last five years. What is
in this book, which has recently gained such notoriety? That is the
sad question which I sought to answer, when I ordered myself a copy of
_The Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews_.

THE THESIS
The thesis of _The Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews_
asserts that "Jews have been conclusively linked to the greatest
criminal endeavor ever undertaken against an entire race of people --
a crime against humanity -- the Black African Holocaust." Hence, the
book's thesis contains two broad points. The first point, made
explicitly, is that Jews bear much moral culpability for the slave
trade. Alleged Jewish domination of the slave trade, then, becomes the
book's primary empirical focus, providing its pseudo veneer of careful
historical scholarship. The thesis statement's second point, however,
is implicit: that the Black African Holocaust was "the greatest
criminal endeavor ever undertaken against an entire race of people."

This implicit thesis warrants special consideration, at the outset.
Clearly the Nation of Islam researchers are challenging Jews to a
victim contest. What was worse, they are asking: the Nazi Holocaust,
or New World slavery? The question is loaded with innuendo and larger
implications. The most subtle and pernicious form of Holocaust
Revisionism has generally sought to position the Holocaust in a
comparative framework. In his work _The Nazi Dictatorship: Problems
and Perspectives of Interpretation_, historian Ian Kershaw points to
this emerging trend, especially prevalent in Germany. There, the place
of the Holocaust in modern history is being debated, a discussion
called the _Historikerstreit_ (historians' dispute). He especially
notes German scholar Ernst Nolte, from the Free University of Berlin,
who argued, in 1986, for the need to view the Holocaust as part of a
larger group of modern genocides. Hitler is placed alongside other
modern butchers such as Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung, Joseph Stalin, Idi
Amin, and myriad others. Such seductive reasoning, however, diminishes
the Holocaust's uniquely atrocious character. The Holocaust was
motivated by sheer racial hatred, and represents a modern bureaucratic
state's efficient attempts to eliminate an entire ethnic group from
the face of the earth. Other attempts at genocide, however abominable,
have generally been motivated by political, economic, or social
considerations. By positioning itself in this comparative framework,
_The Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews_ borrows a well-worn
device, employed by antisemites for decades.

In an April 19 speech at Howard University, Khalid Abdul Muhammad
explored the problematic question of "whose Holocaust (African or
Jewish) was the worst Holocaust in the history of all time?" Having
recently come from a visit to the new Holocaust Museum in Washington
D.C., Muhammad noted with chagrin that various references in the
exhibit implied that the Nazi's Final Solution was the worst crime in
human history. In the speech, Muhammad said that "The 'so-called Jew
Holocaust' lasted...ten years, but the Holocaust of the Black man and
woman lasted 500 years." Thus has discourse in American intellectual
life devolved. In late twentieth century America, money and political
clout are often allotted to the victims of past injustice.
Shareholders of victims groups reap rich dividends. Indeed, the Nation
of Islam has long been an advocate of reparations for slavery,
including the granting of land. Victimization has now become an
industry. Trivialized by all the semantics and posturing, however, are
both the Holocaust and the African slave trade. These terrible
chapters of human history have become pawns in modern political
struggles.

But most of the book is concerned with the African slave trade, not
the Nazi Holocaust. _The Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews_
claims that "They [the Jews] were participants in the entrapment and
forcible exportation of millions of Black African citizens into the
wretched and inhuman life of bondage for the financial benefit of
Jews." But lest this classically antisemitic rhetoric worry anyone, an
"Editor's Note" sagaciously cautions that "the subject at hand is a
controversial one and should be approached with great
sensitivity...The wise will see this as an opportunity to develop a
more equitable relationship between the families of man."

At least the thesis, albeit virulent, is clear. The body of evidence
which allegedly supports the thesis constitutes a morass of
half-truths, murky innuendos, and, to say the least, selective use of
facts. Ambiguous links between words like "Jews" and "jewels" are
liberally mixed together with eyebrow-raising subtitles like "The Jews
Kill the Blacks of Surinam," and "Proud to Murder Black Men." _The
Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews_ is heavily footnoted, and
seems to especially relish that a great preponderance of the sources
cited are "from the Jewish historical record," meaning, presumably,
the work of Jewish historians. Relied upon especially heavily are such
noted works as _Encyclopedia Judaica_ and _Aspects of Jewish Economic
History_. The introduction all but assigns to Jews the blame for the
plight of African peoples during the last 500 years. Despite its bold
claim, the book's use of factual analysis is thin. Its central focus
rests on exiled Sephardic Jewry and their involvement in New World
exploration, especially the Caribbean, Brazil, and the American South.
Information presented is often given without sufficient context.
Sweeping statements are supported with dubious evidence. Sketchy use
of empirical data abounds, like the "partial list" of Jewish
plantation owners in Brazil, or the citation of a Jewish merchant or
two who served the Dutch or British. Indeed, virtually the last half
of the book is a lengthy section titled "Jews of the Black Holocaust,"
featuring a laundry list of Jewish slave-holders from the old American
South. This appears, frankly, as a rather blatant attempt at padding
the text's length, as in junior high. Without it, the book would be
close to a hundred pages shorter.

But these abundant technical flaws are minor, compared to the book's
larger, more comprehensive problems. Its historical overview is vastly
uninformed, and simplistic. In classic antisemitic fashion, it
obsessively strives to provide readers with a specific list of Jewish
activities, with regards to the African slave trade. This infatuation
with Jews irreparably skews the authors' general historical
perspective. It would rather try to count the Jews in sixteenth
century Brazil than look at the broader economic system which produced
sixteenth century Brazil, so to speak.

This fictitious and lopsided historical overview is the book's
greatest flaw. Ultimately, _The Secret Relationship between Blacks and
Jews_ distorts utterly the complex confluence of factors which led to
the trans-Atlantic slave trade, and the inexcusable, tragic
enslavement of millions of African peoples.

THE SECRET RELATIONSHIP
The book emphasizes a "secret" aspect of the relationship between
Blacks and Jews. This gives the volume something of a mysterious
quality. Readers may feel a veritable voyeuristic thrill upon first
opening the book. Unfortunately, the secret remains a secret. The book
mistakes innuendo for subtlety. Undoubtedly part of the "secret"
involves the fact the few groups or individuals, before the Nation of
Islam, had "uncovered" the alleged extent to which Jews were involved
in the slave trade. Another aspect of the "secret," however, hints at
a class of "hidden-Jews." This classically antisemitic allusion seems
to revolve around the requisite conversions many Jews were forced to
undergo at the hands of the Inquisition. Such Jews often converted to
Christianity publicly, but remained Jews in private, earning the
generic name _conversos_. Conversos that continued with their faith in
private were pejoratively labelled as marranos, an abusive term
related to the Spanish word for "swine." Interestingly, the book
routinely employs this derisive term to refer to such Jews. The term
does have some legitimate use among careful scholars, as it describes
a specific category of individuals operating in a unique, and tragic,
historical context. _The Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews_,
however, seems to employ this old epithet with special relish.

An emphasis on "secret Jews," or "_marranos_," is classic
antisemitism. Marranos were especially hated. Even fellow Jews, those
who had braved the Inquisition, were apt to view them as turncoats. On
the streets of Christendom, too, these "crypticJews" were often
loathed. They sometimes adopted overtly Christian names, and publicly
participated in Christian rites with great enthusiasm. But deep down,
they were still viewed with suspicion,still seen as harboring that old
antipathy for the goyim. The notion of a "Secret Jew" fed directly
into some of Medieval Europe's oldest and most virulent antisemitic
views regarding Jews' alien loyalties, and penchant for secret
conspiracies. The list of such "grievances" is well-known. Jews had
not been loyal to the ancient Roman Empire, an accusation which was
sometimes extended to Christians, who were often confused with Jews in
the earliest centuries of this era. Jews of Visigothic Spain had aided
the Islamic conquest of the Iberian peninsula in 711. Jews indulged in
an infamous ritual murder called the "Blood Libel," in which a
Christian child was murdered annually in an unholy religious rite.
Jews had poisoned wells in Europe, prompting the devastating plague
outbreaks of the fourteenth century. In a later but equally tragic
age, such notions were to culminate in the notorious _Protocols of the
Elders of Zion_, purportedly the eyewitness account of a secret
conventicle held during the first Zionist Congress in Basel,
Switzerland (1897). There, the Chief Sage and the Elders of Zion
plotted how to achieve global Jewish domination by exploiting
bourgeois democratic liberties. Though the document was an appalling
forgery, it possesses tenacity. It appeared in Japan as recently as
the late 1980s. Make no mistake about it. When someone starts talking
about "secret" Jewish activities, or "secret" Jews, it is one of the
oldest and deadliest strains of bigotry there is.

_The Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews_ sees conversos as
the driving force behind New World exploitation, and, by
extrapolation, slavery. In its simplistic overview, anybody who had
anything to do with Atlantic maritime commerce or New World
colonization was either a Jew or a conversos. Christopher Columbus was
probably a Jew. The investors who sponsored his voyage, contrary to
legends about Queen Isabella, were Jews. The first settlers of Brazil
were Jews. Ditto for Jamaica, St. Thomas, Barbados, Surinam, Curacao,
et al. Dutch merchants were "frequently Jews." A trader who gave
smallpox infested blankets to the Indians of Pontiac's 1763
Confederacy, wiping out thousands, was a Jew. Jean Lafitte the pirate,
who smuggled slaves into Louisiana after the 1808 prohibition on
importing slaves, was a Jew. The 1831 slave revolt of Nat Turner was
put down with "the help of at least two Jewish militiamen."
Twenty-Three staff officers in the Confederate army were Jews. The
list goes on and on.

What maddens here is the use of half-truths and selective facts to
distort the historical record. It is true, in fact, that some recent
scholarship hints at the possibility that Columbus was a conversos, as
Jane Gerber pointed out in her recent work _The Jews of Spain_.
Although he claimed descent from the Italian city Genoa, Columbus was
never known to write Italian. The name Columbus hints at the name
Colon, which was extremely common with Sephardic Jewry. Too, the
literal translation of Christopher Columbus -- "Christ-Bearing Dove"
-- recalls the overtly Christian names often adopted by conversos. He
was known to keep company with both the Jews and Muslims of Spain. He
seems to have been especially adept at gaining the favor of the
Christianized Jews in Isabella's court, which may have helped him
secure financing for his voyage. Moreover, much of the finest work in
the still evolving understanding of navigation and geography had been
advanced by Jewish scholars. Jewish cartographers had produced some of
the finest known maps of the North African and Mediterranean Coasts.
Jewish inventiveness had also contributed greatly to the development
of the "quadrant," an instrument which enabled sailors to fix their
position by ascertaining the position of heavenly bodies. If anything,
these known Jewish contributions to maritime technology were great
contributions to human knowledge. _The Secret Relationship between
Blacks and Jews_ makes them look shameful and conspiratorial.

Similarly, it is likewise true that there was a Jewish presence in
Atlantic maritime commerce. Along with Syrians and Byzantine Greeks,
the Jews had a long history of providing Medieval western Europe's
stunted economy with merchants. In both Carolingian and Byzantine
texts, the word for Jew is often interchangeable with the word for
merchant. Unfortunately, _The Secret Relationship between Blacks and
Jews_ makes no attempt to depict the deplorable conditions which drove
so many Jews to seek their livelihood in trade. Given the editor's
assertion that "We have made every effort to be fair and just," this
is an egregious oversight. Throughout the Middle Ages, Jews were
generally forbidden to own land. Their religion forbade them from
entering into the Christian oaths upon which feudal contracts were
predicated. The Church, obviously, was out of the question. In many
Medieval cities, walled "ghettoes" were established, where Jews lived
a precarious existence, ever mindful that pogroms could come at any
time. They often were forced to wear special clothing, including the
now infamous yellow-star.

Such conditions drove many enterprising Jews to commerce and finance
as a means to advancement. And Jews of the early Middle Ages possessed
some decided economic advantages. First, Old Testament law permitted
the practice of usury (interest), while it remained forbidden by
Catholic Popes throughout the Medieval era. Moreover, the sorrowful
condition of Jewry since the Babylonian Captivity of Old Testament
fame had inadvertently created a climate conducive to far-flung
commerce -- one which was sorely lacking in the early Christian world
of Barbarian Europe. Because of the Diaspora, Jews had one foot in the
Islamic world and one foot in Christendom, having family and cultural
ties which spanned the entire Mediterranean world. Such contacts
easily converted into a business network. More, the rigorous religious
training their faith demanded made them arguably the most literate of
European peoples, during the Medieval era's early centuries. They were
thus able to engage in correspondence and bookkeeping practices far
surpassing anything in the western Christian world. Medieval Jews
learned to earn their keep by providing the Christian West with the
exotic commodities -- spices, oils, drugs, jewels, etc. -- which it
was often unable to provide for itself. In return for providing these
prized items, they were frequently despised and envied.

_The Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews_ also fails to point
out that during the Medieval Era, Jews themselves were often captured
and sold into slavery. Because of their linguistic and navigational
skills, there were often Jews on board both Christian and Ottoman
ships. Christian ships would capture Jewish crew-members on Islamic
ships and sell them into the slave markets, and vice-versa. A Jewish
slave was especially prized, because it was believed -- often rightly
-- that the various Mediterranean Jewish communities would buy the
Jewish slave for a price far exceeding market value. In effect, the
Jew was being held for ransom, under the guise of being sold into
slavery.

THE MISSING HISTORICAL CONTEXT
_The Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews_ utterly fails to
provide the reader with a historical context. The entire issue of
Jewish involvement in Atlantic maritime activity, for example, is
impossible to understand without reference to political developments
in late Medieval Spain and Portugal. Specifically, one must understand
the tragic expulsion of Jews from Iberia in the 1490s, many of whose
ancestors had lived there since the days of the Roman Empire.
Fantastically, the book implies that Jewish slave trading weighed
heavily in Spanish treatment of the Jews. Here, _The Secret
Relationship between Blacks and Jews_ speaks, far too briefly, of the
Spanish Inquisition. The Spanish Inquisition played an all-too central
role in the Sephardim's sad story. Readers are told that "More than
once, Jews were accused (by the Inquisitors) not just of being Jews,
but for slave dealing and sometimes for that alone." Continuing, the
book alleges that "Slave dealing and slavery and its connection with
Judaism and Jews was offensive to the Spanish reformers." This passage
all but makes the Inquisitors looks like the good guys. Note that the
text even refers to the Inquisitors as "reformers," as though their
notorious activities were justified in the face of such grave Jewish
immorality. It's a little bit better than calling the Gestapo "the
Defenders of Society," but not much.

Again, the book makes liberal use of half-truths. Jewish religious
custom dictated, in fact, humane treatment of slaves, making them
something akin to household members. Many slaves in Jewish homes did
convert to Judaism, and the Talmud requires that slaves in Jewish
homes be circumcised. Thus, the spread of Judaism through slavery was
plausible, and a concern to the Christian European states. In some
cases, it may have been a peripheral concern of the Inquisition.
Neither were genuine Christian concerns regarding slavery unknown. But
to emphasize these sentiments as central motives of the Inquisition,
at the exclusion of the broader context in which the Spanish
Inquisitions flourished, is ludicrous. Unfortunately, any larger sense
of what the Inquisition means to history is absent from the pages of
this book. The Inquisition was established to destroy heresy, much of
which emanated from dissident groups within the Catholic Church
itself. Search and seizure, torture, and the death penalty, were
powerful weapons at the Inquisitors' disposal. In the thirteenth
century, Pope Gregory IX established the first Inquisition court in
the South of France -- not to abolish European Jewry, but to stamp out
the Albigensian heresy, a form of Christianity sometimes compared to
ancient gnosticism. The Spanish Inquisition, to which _The Secret
Relationship between Blacks and Jews_ alludes, was established during
the Christian "Reconquista" of Spain. Its persecutions of both Jews
and Muslims were part of a sweeping movement to Christianize Spain.
The Spanish Inquisition is thus heavily imbued with geopolitical
overtones, issues related to nascent Spanish central government, and
the bureaucratic structure of the Roman Catholic Church.

In short, the expulsions of Jews from most of the major Medieval
European states are ascribed not to antisemitism, but to church
displeasure with Jewish involvement in the slave trade. _The Secret
Relationship between Blacks and Jews_ essentially explains the removal
of Jews from their homes, and their treatment at the hands of the
Spanish Inquisition, as though it were "rough justice" for their
activities in slave commerce. It assigns to the powers of Christian
Europe all-too honorable motives, and blatantly implies that slave
trading was a virtually exclusive Jewish activity. This is an
unconscionable assertion.

The nation-states of Europe had enormous interests in the slave-trade.
Singling out the Jews is not only morally suspect, it is light years
from factually accurate. The Christian states of Europe who sponsored
the voyages of exploration reaped enormous dividends from their
ventures. Far removed from modern illusions of laissez-faire
economics, the Christian states of Europe proved willing to go to
great lengths to protect their developing markets. Even before the
discovery of America in 1492, the Portuguese had been trading in
slaves to man the labor forces of the new plantations they established
on North African islands like Madeira. They were more than willing to
defend their economic interests abroad with the same violent tactics
which they had acquired during years of bloody North African
"Crusades" against the Moors. The Aviz Dynasty, Portugal's royal house
during the fifteenth century, set up fortifications to protect their
nation's African trade, which not only included African slaves, but
also gold, ivory, and pepper. These forts, the first of which was
established at Arguin Island off the West North African Coast, became
the prototype for European forts in the New World; part military
fortification, part "trading-post." Later, such entities became
familiar, even mythical, fixtures of the American frontier. The great
Portuguese trade route established by Vasco da Gama, and subsequent
explorers, thus featured such fortifications at Ormuz, near the mouth
of the Persian Gulf, Goa on the Malabar Coast of India, and Malacca,
site of modern-day Singapore. Such trade was lucrative. In Africa
alone, Portuguese returns were said to run as high as 500%, once the
"Bulge of Africa" had been mastered, and rich markets on the Guinea
Coast opened.

_The Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews_ largely ignores this
broad-based theater of operations in which the late Medieval economy
flourished. It is much more concerned with the New World -- especially
marrano presence in the New World. It ascribes to them a pernicious
and ubiquitous presence in the Western Hemisphere. Here again,
half-truths and distortions abound. In fact, many marranos, as well as
conversos, made their way to the New World. Jewish presence in the
Americas and the Caribbean should come as no surprise. The New World
territories ultimately attracted peoples from most regions of the
earth. The Diaspora Nation of Jewry had wandered since the sixth
century B.C. That they, too, should seek new homelands is readily
understandable. Probably many of the first plantations on St. Thomas
were established by marranos. Brazil's first governor, Thomas de
Souza, was Jewish. Once again, however, the book seems unable to see
the forest for the trees. While focusing on the scattered Jewish names
and Jewish communities known to have existed in the early years of New
World settlement, it utterly misses the larger historical context of
international Atlantic activity.

A GLOBAL ECONOMY
What ultimately evolved in the centuries immediately subsequent to
1492 was a global economic system, one involving much of the planet.
Among its leading powers were the nation-states of western Europe. The
population of Europe had been steadily rising, ever since its
catastrophic decline during the plague years of the fourteenth
century. By the mid-seventeenth century, the peoples of Europe were
spilling over into the American hemisphere. Vast new markets were
created. The flood of New World metals into Europe, and fractional
reserve banking, created an inflationary boom, stimulating ever
broadening "consumer" classes to demand more products. Furthermore,
the clearing of New World lands produced an enormous demand for labor,
especially unskilled labor. Thus was born the terrible dynamic which
fueled the market for slaves.

The role of the Dutch needs to be especially considered in this
regard. _The Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews_ seems to use
the terms "Dutch" and "Jewish" as veritable synonyms, subtly implying
that Jews controlled Holland's financial system, the way modern
antisemites might accuse the Jews of controlling Hollywood, or the
Federal Reserve System. Once again, this is a great distortion of the
historical record. There was, in fact, a significant conversos
presence in Holland. After the Spanish and Portuguese expulsion
decrees of 1492 and 1497, many Jews sought refuge in the Dutch
Netherlands. Once the Reformation's initial spate of Calvinist zeal
had passed, the Dutch became among Europe's most religiously tolerant
peoples, a fact which contributed greatly to their prosperity during
the seventeenth century. But the Netherlands's great bourgeoisie was
by no means exclusively Jewish. It was far too broadly-based to be so
narrowly defined. By 1600, the Dutch manned 10,00 ships, and were the
world's leading power in maritime commerce. In 1609 the great Bank of
Amsterdam was established, an event which probably should be
considered as "ground zero" for the modern Western financial system.
Deposits were guaranteed by the government. The bank's solvency was
unrivalled, a welcome development after the plethora of debased and
varying monetary units which had characterized the sixteenth century
economy. The Bank's florin became the standard unit of European
currency. Checks could be written against bank accounts. Sephardic
resources and expertise certainly played a role in forming this great
bank, as they did later in the seventeenth century when a group of
Dutch financiers, many of them conversos, agreed to hold British bonds
in return for the ability to operate a bank similar to the Bank of
Amsterdam. This second great European bank, the Bank of London, was
thus formed in 1693. In both banks, Sephardic investments were
significant, but not exclusive. Above all, the Banks were obviously
sponsored by national regimes and Christian upper-classes, which
benefitted greatly from them.

The African slave trade was facilitated by this financial colossus.
Various credit instruments and partnerships could now be used to
finance ever bigger commercial ventures, tapping into the massive
capital pools created by deposit banking. Governments acted in close
coordination with private interests, using their power to gain
favorable balances of trade, and enhance national wealth. The system
is sometimes referred as "mercantilism." Under such policies, the
great European regimes both subsidized and protected trade. Whole
companies were chartered to facilitate the efficient exploitation of
the new markets abroad. Like modern-day utility companies, these
companies were generally regulated quite heavily. But they were given
a monopoly over trading rights in a certain region, and could raise
capital through the sale of stock. Many African slaves brought to the
New World were, in fact, brought by such companies, especially the
Dutch West India Company, founded in 1621. Similarly, in 1672, the
British founded the Royal Africa Company, which controlled the slave
trade emanating from the mouth of the Niger River. Governments could
also grant special slavetrading contracts to private merchants, called
_asientos_. _The Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews_ seems to
delight in the occasional Jewish name which crops up in these
contracts. Far less attention is given to the global context in which
such trading developed.

African peoples were involved in the slave-trade, too. Whole native
African states were established to monopolize the trade in gold and
slaves, ruthlessly pillaging the African hinterlands to supply
European traders with the human commodities they sought. Slave traders
themselves rarely ventured inland from the coastal trading-forts which
European governments had established for them. _The Secret
Relationship between Blacks and Jews_ makes virtually no mention of
this native African role in the trans-Atlantic slave trade, without
which slavery would have been utterly impracticable.

By the eighteenth century, a terrible dependency on slaves had been
established. At its heart was sugar. Sugar was produced on New World
"plantations" manned by slave labor. Sugar, and many of the
high-quality, low-cost goods produced by slave labor, were shipped
from the colonies to their mother-countries, especially France and
Britain. Whole industries were predicated on the import of cheap
slave-produced raw goods, which were converted into finished products
and exported abroad. To gain the slave labor force essential for
production in these New World colonies, the European states supplied
their African trading partners with goods, especially cloth. This web
of trading relationships created a "triangular trade." Cloth travelled
from Europe to Africa. Slaves were moved from Africa to America.
Sugar, and eventually cotton, came from America to Europe. The great
wealth of Britain and France during the eighteenth century was largely
created by this global economy. So was the wealth of America, both
North and South.

CONCLUSION
In concluding, several points warrant mention. First, the African
slave trade was part of an ugly, global economic system. For _The
Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews_ to single out the Jews as
bearing some special guilt for the slave trade is not only
antisemitic, it is historically inaccurate. The forces which compelled
the development of Atlantic maritime commerce in the fifteenth century
have their roots deep in the Medieval World's earliest centuries. The
Christian states of Europe sponsored and benefitted from the
development of new markets. To the extent that Jews were involved in
finance and trade, it was often the by-product of Christian
persecution, which drove them out of other livelihoods. By the time
one reaches the mercantilist world of the seventeenth and eighteenth
centuries, slavery was a cornerstone for many national economies. The
patina of slave-produced goods tainted local economies far removed
from the auction blocks where human beings were actually bought and
sold. Hence, sensitive souls, who would perhaps recoil from witnessing
the degradations of Caribbean sugar production, were spared from
discomforting confrontation with the labor force that provided so many
of their imports. This geographical and emotional distance from
physical slavery, however, in no way diminished the dependence on
slavery. Even if the Jews had been the Atlantic's sole slave-traders
-- and they were not -- they would merely have been providing the
Christian states with that which they desired.

Second, there is the whole question of how to respond to hateful
bigotry, in general. _The Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews_
is a virulently antisemitic piece of work. An understandable current
of thought believes that such works should not be dignified with a
response. When the legitimate scholarly community comments on such
viewpoints, the reasoning goes, it only gives these bigoted notions
greater publicity. Furthermore, it creates the impression that some
kind of "dialogue" is occurring. Hence, many would argue that the
responsible discussions of competent scholarship have no place for
such hateful, banal ideas. Even clear and unambiguous refutations of
such viewpoints elevate them to a dangerous level of respectability.
As Deborah Lipstadt points out in her recent work _Denying the
Holocaust_, America is now firmly enmeshed in a relativistic
"talk-show culture," in which everybody gets to have an opinion. Each
view, no matter how poorly reasoned or substantiated, is too often
treated with equal respect. The old distinctions between right and
wrong -- both in terms of factual veracity and morality -- are
increasingly blurred. Lipstadt's point is well-taken. Certainly the
standards which govern the tenor of public discourse do need to stay
high, and high-minded. At the same time, however, the sorts of
arguments posited in _The Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews_
have obviously gained a small but significant following, especially on
many American college campuses. This may be evidence of, if nothing
else, the abysmal historical background which too many students
receive in secondary education. At any rate, the arguments canvassed
in this now notorious book are too unsubstantiated to go unchallenged.

Third, criticism of _The Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews_
must be carefully excised from any racist overtones. African-Americans
have suffered enough in this country, without now being branded as the
new "Nazis." Sweeping indictments of "shoddy African-American
scholarship" could obviously resurrect old canards. Calls for
"mainstream black leaders" to denounce the notions put forth by the
likes of Louis Farrakhan and Khalid Abdul Muhammad must not seem to
view African-America as a monolith. There is the danger that contempt
for the vile ideas espoused by Nation of Islam ideologies could itself
become a new kind racism. Thus would be perpetuated the vicious cycle
of grievances and counter-grievances which has plagued the world since
time immemorial. Unfortunately, sympathy for the suffering of
AfricanAmericans in this country would probably be the ultimate
victim. For if there is anything that the book has right, it is that
blacks suffered horribly during the centuries of the slave era.

In the final analysis, then, sensitivity is required of all parties.
Historical perspectives emphasizing the global, systemic nature of the
African slave-trade cannot be seen as apologizing for, or explaining
away, the moral atrocity which slavery was. Unless one believes that
human beings are economic marionettes -- puppets at the mercy of vast,
impersonal forces --the role of individual morality and volition must
remain central to historical discourse. At the same time, the informed
student of history cannot help but note the macro-economic realities
of the seventeenth and eighteenth century worlds, which saw slavery
become so riveted into certain global areas. In an age when cheap
Chinese imports are tainted with the whiff of prison labor, and
Caribbean sugar cane is worked by indentured servants, modern
Americans would do well to remember the lessons of earlier centuries.
Slavery does not operate in a vacuum. Neither is it some primitive
institution from a cartoon dark age. It is a subtle and tenacious
evil, one whose economic tentacles can reach into the most far-flung
markets. Even to ascribe exclusive moral guilt for slavery to the
American South is a gross caricature of the Antebellum world's
complex, international economic networks.

To blame Jews for slavery, however, goes beyond jejune
over-simplifications. It goes beyond the typical human foibles which
occasionally afflict all historians. Blaming the Jews for slavery is
more than inaccurate. It is bigotry, reeking of the conspiracy
theories which have falsely blamed Jews for so many of the Western
World's woes, since biblical ages. Such a dubious thesis not only
utterly fails to empirically support itself, but can only distract
scholars from the great injustice that slavery truly was. And that is
perhaps the saddest thing of all about _The Secret Relationship
between Blacks and Jews_.

[This paper may also be found at the H-Antisemitism web page and is
reproduced here with the permission of the author.]

Doc Tavish

unread,

Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 03:35:36 GMT, elect...@nospam.bigfoot.com
(Electric Zen) wrote:

>>>On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 02:20:13 GMT, doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com (Doc
>>>Tavish) wrote:

>>>>I have a very damning bit of evidence how they "archive" people's
>>>>words versus how DejaNews archives the words. I want you to read my
>>>>example and you actually tell all of us that Nizkor archived my words
>>>>even remotely being representative of what I said!
>

>>>Actually, I just has a quick peek and didn't see you archived at
>>>Nizkor at all. Seems your second-rate bigoted trash doesn't even
>>>deserve a mention.
>

>>What do you call this you lying little piece of filth? Is that link or
>>is it not a Nizkor link? I just got this the other day! No wonder why
>>your kind have been so thoroughly despised by so many for so long. You
>>bastards lack the humility to admit you've been bested. Is this just
>>another proof that the Kol Nidre allows you Yids to lie and have a
>>clean conscience? Lurkers here is what Jews have written about the art
>>of lying- the Kol Nidre: http://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=358303559
>
>>Now back to the actual Nizkor archive that Kike Lewis denies at the
>>moment:
>
>>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/t/people/k/katz.harry/1998/katz.9806

>Looks like an archive of a Harry Katz post, not yours.

Yes it is an archive of a Harry Katz post at Nizkor and my previous
post showed both Nizkor's version and my version at DejaNews. Do I
have to copy'n'paste it again to show your deliberate attempt to
divert?

Lurkers notice the message IDs in Ken Lewis' headers which I am
currently replying to:

From: elect...@nospam.bigfoot.com (Electric Zen)
Subject: Re: Nizkor Should Be Run Out of Town at the ends of Pitch
Forks!Re: The Revisionists Beat Nizkor
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 03:35:36 GMT
Organization: The Einsatzgruppen
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <35a43a5b...@news.abccom.bc.ca>
References: <6o0qaq$1...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
<35a40...@news.depaul.edu> <35a423f3....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
<35a428e8...@news.abccom.bc.ca>
<35a432c3....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>

The magic ID:
<35a423f3....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>

That is the message ID to the post that Ken Lewis is seeking to divert
you all from. Here is what Ken is diverting from and notice the
message ID in the included headers. These posts are too new to be at
DejaNews but the message IDs will be excellent proof for now!

From: doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com (Doc Tavish)
Newsgroups:
alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.nswpp,altskinheads,alt.politics.white-power,triangle.politics
Subject: Nizkor Should Be Run Out of Town at the ends of Pitch
Forks!Re: The Revisionists Beat Nizkor
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 02:20:13 GMT
Organization: McTavish Informational Services Worldwide
Lines: 681
Message-ID: <35a423f3....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>

[Notice the message IDs match perfectly too. How damned desperate can
these people be to try to pull fast ones like this? Notice that I did
not delete any of Ken's false claims either! Tavish comment]

>>THE REVISIONISTS HAVE WON

<snip>

NIZKOR Archives show:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/t/people/k/katz.harry/1998/katz.9806

Venomous McTavish spews:

--
Harry Katz

http://www.torah.org/learning/halacha/S20.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/dafyomi2/insites/ch-dt-63.htm

[ ... ]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> You just noticed?

>
> --YFE

Red Revolution

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are You Sleeping, Bourgeoisie

------------------------------------------------------------------------

~~~~~~~~End~~~~~~~~~

http://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=335428368

Numbers CHAPTER 31

William Wallace McTavish

http://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=314100389

[...]

http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5757/achrei.html

[...]

Footnote:

~~~~~~~~~~END~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Doc Tavish

=========================

Doc Tavish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The moral of this repost is to once aggain have in the archives how
Jews will simply not deal with the hard evidence. They smear, deny,
slander, libel but they will never ever admit they are wrong much less
they just had their asses kicked. Now you all can see what breeds what
these non-Semitic Khazars call falsely "anti-Semitism."

Doc Tavish

unread,

Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

I will not delete one word from this liar's post. I want all to see
how he is trying to shift the spotlight from Nizkor's slander's and
lies to an entirely different subject. Notice that all he can do is
make personal attack and he did not once refute any of my material and
yet everyone wonders why someone found so many willing executioners!
I will keep this post in my archives and will use it in the future
along with what Lewis avoids to really expose how these people really
operate.

On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 03:53:57 GMT, elect...@nospam.bigfoot.com
(Electric Zen) wrote:

You can't deal with the fact that you just butt fucked yourself in
front of thousands and now you want to tuck tail and run! Notice that
I didn't snip one word of your diversion either! I am convinced that
your kind pretty much got what they deserved throughout history. I am
not talking about individuals that aren't like you either- I am
referring to what I believe is the vast majority of your ilk though
BUT I still believe there are exceptions!

"Those that continually chunk rocks at hornet's nest must not

Jeffrey G. Brown

unread,

Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

In article <35a432c3....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, Scott "beat you to a

bloody pulp" Bradbury (doc_t...@bigfoot.com, phi...@phoenix.net) wrote:

>On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 02:25:00 GMT, elect...@nospam.bigfoot.com
>(Electric Zen) wrote:

> [...deletia...]

>>Actually, I just has a quick peek and didn't see you archived at
>>Nizkor at all. Seems your second-rate bigoted trash doesn't even
>>deserve a mention.
>

>What do you call this you lying little piece of filth?

> [...deletia...]

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/t/people/k/katz.harry/1998/katz.9806
>
>From Harry...@mci.com Sun Jun 14 02:25:12 EDT 1998
>Article: 182410 of alt.revisionism
>Message-ID: <358067F0...@mci.com>
>From: Harry Katz <Harry...@mci.com>
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U)
>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>Subject: Re: Jews View Themselves as "Equals" to God - Hence Their
>"Choseness"

I call it a post from Harry Katz that happens to contain a few drops of
Poor Ol' Gutless Scottie's drool. It's not a post from Poor Ol' Gutless
Scott Bradbury.

You're not archived at Nizkor, Scottie. You just don't rate.

Jeffrey G. Brown

unread,

Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

In article <35a436d3....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, Scott "beat you to a

bloody pulp" Bradbury (doc_t...@bigfoot.com, phi...@phoenix.net) wrote:

>On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 02:25:00 GMT, elect...@nospam.bigfoot.com
>(Electric Zen) wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 02:20:13 GMT, doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com (Doc
>>Tavish) wrote:
>
>>>I have a very damning bit of evidence how they "archive" people's
>>>words versus how DejaNews archives the words. I want you to read my
>>>example and you actually tell all of us that Nizkor archived my words
>>>even remotely being representative of what I said!
>>
>>Actually, I just has a quick peek and didn't see you archived at
>>Nizkor at all. Seems your second-rate bigoted trash doesn't even
>>deserve a mention.
>
>From the same Nizkor link that Ken Lewis says doesn't exist:

Poor Ol' Gutless Scottie is lying -- again. Ken Lewis didn't mention the
post that The Gutless One is obsessing about. He merely said that he
'didn't see [Bradbury] archived at Nizkor at all' -- and he's not. The
archive labelled 'tavish' contains only a response to a post from Linda
Thompson, who berates Scottie for his blanket condemnation of Jews and
speculates that he may be a federal agent trying to discredit US
dissidents.

In short, Poor Ol' Gutless Scottie doesn't rate any significant space on
the Nizkor server.

Electric Zen

unread,

Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 04:23:23 GMT, doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com (Doc
Tavish) wrote:

>I will not delete one word from this liar's post. I want all to see
>how he is trying to shift the spotlight from Nizkor's slander's and
>lies to an entirely different subject. Notice that all he can do is
>make personal attack and he did not once refute any of my material and
>yet everyone wonders why someone found so many willing executioners!
>I will keep this post in my archives and will use it in the future
>along with what Lewis avoids to really expose how these people really
>operate.

Jesus, Doc! Take a pill. Calm down. That old man's heart of your's
won't e able to take much more of this.

Yes, I know how you'd just love for the Holocaust to be repeated.
That's what makes you such a disgusting little slug, Doc. You're a
raving lunatic. Literally.

BTW, just are 'these people,'Doc? Anyone who disagrres with you and
points out what a fucking nutcase you are?

Waaaa. Waaaa. Whine, cry and snivel some more, Doc.

BTW, I did snip your post. You haven't had anything original to say
for months.

Watch out for those Black Helicopters, Doc.

Now, let's move on to something else.

I've always found this interesting. How about you?

---
How To Be A Revisionist Scholar

Author: Michael Philips [top...@igc.apc.org] First-Published: January
3, 1996 (alt.revisionism)

Hey lurkers! After browsing through alt.revisionism posts for awhile,
you may already have figured out how to become a Holocaust
revisionist. It's easy. For those of you considering such a move, be
assured that it requires no preparation or scholarly research. Simply
follow the guidelines below, as the revisionists on this newsgroup
have done, and you'll quickly be on the road to deluding yourself that
someone out there takes you seriously, and that you are valiantly
fighting the evil forces of some undefined, implausible conspiracy.
1. Creamed Mush with Fog Sauce -- Never provide evidence for your
assertions. In fact, respond to demands for evidence the way Dracula
responds to crucifixes. Do anything you can to avoid it. Throw
insults. Change the subject. Obfuscate. Laugh derisively. Claim you
already gave the evidence or that someone else did. But never provide
any evidence yourself (unless you provide an incomplete or
incomprehensible citation along with it).

2. Heads-I-Win-Tails-You-Lose -- Demand that all evidence for the
Holocaust be proved genuine (dodging any discussion of what that proof
would consist of), and also demand that all your unsubstantiated
assertions be proved false. That way, you never bear any burden of
proof. (originally posted by Mike Stein)

3. Hello, I'm a Cremation Expert -- Claim that the 52 Auschwitz
furnaces could not have had the capacity to burn 4,756 corpses per day
because modern commercial crematoriums don't have such a capacity.
When its pointed out to you that there's no comparison between
ordinary commercial crematoriums and those built in the camps, for a
variety of reasons -- e.g. coffins were not used, one can cremate more
than one corpse in a single retort, etc. -- ignore this and repeat the
claim.

4. And I'm a Chemist too! -- Express a series of doubts and claims
about the properties of Zyklon-B, the gas used to kill people in
Auschwitz gas chambers. For example, claim that Zyklon-B is not an
ideal agent for mass gassing, and therefore the Nazis shouldn't have
used it and thus they *didn't* use it.

Even better, claim that they *couldn't* have used it because the gas
lingering in the chamber after the murders would have killed anyone
trying to enter the chambers to remove the corpses. When someone
explains to you (countless times) that some of the gas chambers had
powerful ventilation systems to remove the gas and in other cases
people entering wore gas masks, argue that despite the ventilation
there would still somehow be enough residual gas in the chambers to
kill people.

Keep waving a DuPont brochure around in an attempt to ward off those
who know more about chemistry than you do. Also claim that ventilating
the gas would cause problems to individuals downwind. When someone
explains to you that the gas is lighter than air, just quietly go away
for awhile or change the subject or complain about a mean word they
may have used.

5. Sticks and Stones -- If you're being wiped out with evidence and
reasoning you cannot refute, you can always take refuge in complaining
about the language being used by your adversaries. For example, if
they say, "I've already explained that it takes less gas to kill
people than lice, and therefore there are fewer cyanide residues
remaining on the gas chamber walls than on the delousing chamber
walls, you moron," you can respond by complaining about their use of
the word "moron."

You can actually evade quite a bit of serious discussion by spending a
lot of time condescendingly lecturing the newsgroup about their use of
trashy language. But this approach doesn't work very well in building
credibility. You may view yourself as an arbiter of social discourse
but you'll actually come off like a den-mother scurrying around
excoriating the little Cub Scouts to behave themselves.

6. Oh Sorry, I Ate the Last One -- Claim that Jews and other prisoners
were not intentionally starved, that they were victims of food
shortages just like everybody else. When it is pointed out that
neither the camp guards nor people living in the vicinity of the camps
starved to death, just claim that this does not prove there was an
intentional starvation policy, and that if there is no piece of paper
with a written order to starve people, then no starvation occurred.

7. The "What's It Mean?" Spiral of Infinity -- Try to keep your
opponents off balance by constantly shifting or questioning the
definitions of words. For example, if your opponent states that
historians generally agree that 1 million Jews were killed in gas
chambers at Auschwitz during the Holocaust, you can ask, what do you
mean by "historian" or what do you mean by "Jew" or what do you mean
by "agree?"

Alternatively, when confronted with the evidence that Himmler called
for the "ausrotten" of the Jews, argue that ausrotten doesn't really
mean extermination. When proof of that definition is provided by
German dictionaries and German speakers on the newsgroup, just ignore
it.

8. Now You See It, Now You Don't -- Argue that the gas chambers never
existed because they are not still standing. Of course, by this logic,
the Mayflower, Carthage, Jimmy Hoffa, and large portions of the Great
Wall never existed. When this is pointed out to you, ignore it.

9. Kafka Was Here -- Argue that the gas chambers never existed because
there are no photos or drawings of them. When you are presented with
photos and drawings, state that they could not possibly be actual
photos/drawings of gas chambers because the gas chambers never existed
because there are no photos/drawings of them because they never
existed because . . .

10. Fun With Math -- Charge the anti-revisionists with playing numbers
games while engaging in them yourself. For example, argue that the
"holohoaxers" have changed the estimated number of Jews killed at
Auschwitz from 4 million to 1 million. When it's pointed out to you
that the 4 million figure was supplied by the Soviets and refers to
the total number of victims, not just Jews, and has always been
considered ridiculously inflated by non-Soviet historians who have
never varied from the 1 million figure for Jews, just repeat that the
holohaoxers have changed the number of Jews killed at Auschwitz from 4
million to 1 million and that the Holocaust is therefore a hoax.

The point of this tactic, of course, is to try to make ALL the death
figures questionable. If 4 million is unreliable, then 1 million is
likewise unreliable, and you just keep revising the numbers downward
until you reach zero, and then - poof! - no Holocaust!

11. The Great Leap -- This tactic goes like this: If one piece of
testimony about the Holocaust seems unreliable, then ALL testimony
about the Holocaust is unreliable. If one Holocaust witness may have
recanted something on the stand, then all other Holocaust witnesses
are liars. If some camp prisoners did not starve to death, then NONE
of them starved to death. etc. But be careful. This is a double-edged
sword -- someone may use the well-documented lies of other
revisionists to conclude that YOU are a liar as well.

12. But I'm Not Anti-Semitic -- Try to find examples of misdeeds by an
individual Jewish person, then imply that this makes all Jews look
bad. When you are asked why you think one Jew represents all Jews but
that one Christian doesn't represent all Christians, ignore the
question.

13. Grab Bag of Idiocy -- Here are a few quick claims you can easily
make, although be forewarned that they will immediately make you look
like an imbecile: a) Claim that "the Jews" declared war on Hitler
(whatever that means), and that anything he did to them was an act of
self-defense; b) With absolutely zero supporting evidence, claim that
the corpses in the Auschwitz furnaces would have exploded, damaging
the furnaces and thereby bringing the corpse cremation figures into
question; c) Argue that because the Holocaust Memorial Museum in
Washington DC has a small model of a gas chamber and not a full-scale
model, this somehow proves that gas chambers did not exist during
WWII; d) Argue that the existence of a brothel in Auschwitz means
there could not have been gas chambers there.

14. If you don't want to look like a total buffoon, there's always the
pseudo-academic, above-the-fray approach. With a huge dose of
arrogance and superiority, explain that you are neither a revisionist
nor any other "label", merely someone with a healthy skepticism about
everything, including Holocaust history (ALL of it), and that you are
conducting your own research to determine for yourself whether certain
Holocaust incidents actually took place. Pretend to be totally
impartial (despite the avalanche of Holocaust evidence you would
encounter the minute you actually began any legitimate research), but
in your posts only question the Holocaust historians' statements, not
revisionists' statements.

15. Alternatively claim that: a) the Jews in the camps died as a
result of allied bombing; b) the Jews weren't killed in the camps but
were sent to Russia; and c) the Jews never even went to the camps
because the railroad capacity was insufficient. When someone points
out that these are mutually exclusive, and that it would be a neat
trick for allied bombs in 1944 to result in the deaths of Jews in
1942, ignore it.

16. As for the motive behind the Holocaust "hoax", claim that the
Holocaust was invented near the end of WWII by people who foresaw the
establishment of the state of Israel, and also foresaw that Israel
would face years of conflict with its neighbors, and also foresaw the
consequent need for U.S. military and financial aid to Israel, and
also foresaw possible public opposition to such aid, and so they
invented a huge hoax with thousands of phony witnesses and documents
so that those who might oppose the aid to Israel would feel sorry for
Jews and wouldn't oppose the aid. When someone points out to you that
this is sheer idiocy and that acts of genocide do not automatically
turn on the aid spigot to the victims, ignore them.

17. Although all of your arguments will be consistently blown to
smithereens, just wait a few days or weeks and then re-post them.

18. Remember that the revisionist community is peopled mainly by
racists, white-supremacists, Israel-bashers, and Nazis. This means
that everyone except these kinds of people will dismiss you. But don't
let that stop you. Don't let your Fellini-esque, internally
inconsistent, un-researched, hypocritical distortions and lies prevent
you from continuing to post. After all, you're fighting for the truth
(as you'd like it to be).

Jeffrey G. Brown

unread,

Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

In article <35a43f58....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, Scott "beat you to a

bloody pulp" Bradbury (doc_t...@bigfoot.com, phi...@phoenix.net) wrote:

>On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 03:35:36 GMT, elect...@nospam.bigfoot.com
>(Electric Zen) wrote:

> [...deletia...]

[Gutless Bradbury sez:]

>>>Now back to the actual Nizkor archive that Kike Lewis denies at the
>>>moment:
>>
>>>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/t/people/k/katz.harry/1998/katz.9806
>
>>Looks like an archive of a Harry Katz post, not yours.
>
>Yes it is an archive of a Harry Katz post at Nizkor and my previous
>post showed both Nizkor's version and my version at DejaNews.

'Nizkor's version' is an archive of one of Harry Katz's posts. Bradbury's
'version' isn't a 'version' of that post at all -- it's a copy of one of
his own posts, which is _not_ archived at Nizkor.

> [...deletia...]

>[Notice the message IDs match perfectly too. How damned desperate can
>these people be to try to pull fast ones like this?

What 'fast one' did they pull, Gutless? Do you have evidence that the
headers in the Katz post have been altered in some way?

Jeffrey G. Brown

unread,

Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

In article <35a443b5....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, Scott "beat you to a

bloody pulp" Bradbury (doc_t...@bigfoot.com, phi...@phoenix.net) wrote:

>You can't deal with the fact that you just butt fucked yourself in
>front of thousands and now you want to tuck tail and run!

Chalk up yet another discussion into which Poor Ol' Gutless Scottie
introduced the subject of his sexual obsessions...

steve mock

unread,

Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

Funny. I don't know how long Covington has been posting this - I first saw
it about a year ago - but it appears that every single one of his
predictions turned out to be absolutely wrong. Matt Giwer has virtually
vanished except for the occasional drunken raving under someone else's nym,
Zundel has been publicly shown to be the liar and con artist he is, and
Covington's NSWPP still consists of nothing more than himself, his dog and
his imaginary friends (one of whom, I'm sure, wrote the missive below,
assuming that the rumors that his dog ditched and joined the National
Alliance are true).

Meanwhile, Ken McVay and Nizkor are still going strong - up to, correct me
of I'm wrong, close to 500,000 pages of information on the Holocaust and
Holocaust denial available on the Nizkor site (http://www.nizkor.org),
which receives about 100 times as many daily hits as the most popular
"revisionist" page. Numerous other pages have popped up as well (such as
http://www.holocaust-history.org), also containing volumes of reliable,
first-hand evidence and expert analysis. And, as the lastest surveys still
show, more people believe in UFO abductions than think that the Holocaust
was a hoax.

I'm amazed that Covington even reposts this message. Its would appear to
be downright embarrasing to him.

Steve Mock

ns...@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> THE REVISIONISTS HAVE WON
>
> Dear Harold:

>
> I am not certain, but I think we may be witnessing the
> gradual fading to black of Nizkor; I would not be at all
> surprised to see them as an organized group quietly fold
> their tents and disappear into the night within the next
> six months or so, although a lot of the more loud-mouthed
> individuals will still be around and posting
> on the "playgroups", as you have so aptly
> designated them.
>

> What has happened is very simple, although needless
> to say the Nizkids will never admit it in a million years.
> The fact is, the Revisionists have won. Not won some kind

> of big intellectual or historical debate, of course. That

> will never be allowed to happen, and Nizkor was never
> intended to bring such a thing about. Nizkor was intended
> by its true architects to SILENCE Revisionists, not

> debate them, and in that task they have failed wretchedly.

> More and more Revisionist web sites are springing up
> every day, the Revisionist message is getting out to
> millions of people now instead of hundreds of thousands
> as it was in the days when Nizkor started up, there
> is more and more general doubt about the Holocaust,
> the industry itself has been forced to revise downward
> the official number of the "martyrs" not once but
> several times, and the governments of Europe and
> Canada have been forced to stumble back on the
> most blatant and heavy-handed forms of censorship
> and political thuggery in a desperate attempt to
> silence the questioning voices.
>

> Nizkor was intended to sweep all of this from the
> Internet; instead they have, if anything, exacerbated
> it by making genuine libertarians mad and students of
> history curious. In the end they were forced to resort
> to the type of terrorist tactics you and others have
> suffered, in order to try and drive people who disagreed
> with their orthodoxies off the Net, and they even failed
> in that. They might have made a better go of it if they
> had been able to control their own lunatic fringe,
> but people like Rich Graves and Andrew Mathis and
> Joel Rosenberg turned the newsgroups into a

> cyberspace mental asylum.
>

> It is my considered opinion that three people have
> done more to undermine and discredit Nizkor than anyone
> else. (Other than the morons in Nizkor itself, of course).
> The first is Matt Giwer of Florida, who doggedly refused
> to give up when they persecuted him without mercy and

> tried to drive him off the Internet. The second is

> Ernst Zundel, who ran them ragged with a cheery
> smile on his cyber-lips and finally tracked McVay
> down to his kosher lair on Nunaimo (sp?) island,
> debunking permanently the "independent Gentile
> idealist" myth and exposing the whole thing as a
> Jewish-financed front, most likely with the Simon
> Wiesenthal Center ultimately footing the bill.
>

> Finally, there is your own inimitable self; you
> have spent the past two years or so regularly slicing
> the Jews up into ribbons with your verbal swordplay
> and hitting them where it hurts the most, in their
> insatiable egos. It can't do their morale very much
> good to understand that to their undoubted surprise,
> they are totally outclassed and outgunned
> intellectually by the people they began with
> only contempt for.
>

> I rather doubt that when Ken McVay makes his final
> report and hands in all his gear at the synagogue where
> Ernst found him, there will be much of a bonus waiting
> for him in his last paycheck. He didn't deliver the goods.
>

Mark Van Alstine

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Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

In article <35a40...@news.depaul.edu>, "Daniel Mittleman"
<da...@cs.depaul.edu> wrote:

[snip]

> The answer, of course, is not that Giwer was a denier (he in fact is a
> fairly weak one), rather it is that Giwer is a troll, a bully, and
> engaged in posting behaviors - independent of content - that were
> impolite and in violation of his many ISP user agreements. It is
> possible, though I don't have evidence here in front of me to
> demonstrate it, that some of his own behaviors constituted criminal
> harassment.

See:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/edeiken.yale/att-960922
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/edeiken.yale/att-961016

[snip]

The gonadotoxic Giwer-swine is, as far as I can determine, a craven
anti-Semitic and racist troller whose only interest is in slandering Jews
and causing fights. He has profusely and consistantly lied about what has
been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi
apologia, crude sexism, and has generally conducted himself with such a
complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be
no point in taking the time to read and respond to him. For detailed and
documented evidence of this, please peruse DejaNews and visit the Nizkor
Project at:

http://www.dejanews.com/
http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/email/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/net-abuse/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/forgeries.1096
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/antisemite
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/simpering-bitch
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/fatbroad
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/c-word
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/plagarized-01.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lie-freely-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/thousand-dollar

Mark

---------------------------------------------------------------------

"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line seperating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but right through every human heart--and all human hearts."

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Doc Tavish

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Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 04:38:32 GMT, dc...@atlcom.net (dckom) wrote:

>On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 04:23:23 GMT c.e., doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com (Doc
>Tavish) wrote :

>>I will not delete one word from this liar's post. I want all to see
>>how he is trying to shift the spotlight from Nizkor's slander's and
>>lies to an entirely different subject. Notice that all he can do is
>>make personal attack and he did not once refute any of my material and
>>yet everyone wonders why someone found so many willing executioners!
>>I will keep this post in my archives and will use it in the future
>>along with what Lewis avoids to really expose how these people really
>>operate.
>
>

>"Doc", you're being deliberately obtuse. Of course there are few of your
>words in the archived post. It wasn't your bloody post!

I did not claim that it was my post! It was Nizkor's version of what I
said. Who would ever trust a little commie bastard that uses as a sig
line what a convicted Jewish assassin said? As in:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Free thought, neccessarily involving freedom of
speech and press, I may tersely define thus:no
opinion a law-no opinion a crime.
Alexander Berkman

> David
>p.s.
>keep it up, Scottie, I'll get you that KOTM award yet. :)

Nizkook will get the award!

Daniel Keren

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Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

And Hitler won the war, right Harold? Poor old crazy nazi trash...

-Danny Keren.

Doc Tavish

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Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

From: jeff_...@bigfoot.com (Jeffrey G. Brown)

Subject: Re: Nizkor Should Be Run Out of Town at the ends of Pitch
Forks!Re: The Revisionists Beat Nizkor

Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 23:57:38 -0400
Message-ID: <jeff_brown-08...@38.27.217.197>
References: <6o0qaq$1...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
<35a40...@news.depaul.edu>
<35a423f3....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>

On Wed, 08 Jul 1998 23:57:38 -0400, jeff_...@bigfoot.com (Jeffrey G.
Brown) wrote:

>In article <35a423f3....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, Scott "beat you to a

>bloody pulp" Bradbury (doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com, phi...@phoenix.net) wrote:
>
>>Nizkor's mission is primarily smear, libel, misrepresent etc. any and
>>all opposition!
>

>> [...deletia...]

Can't stand the truth hey Judas? Have you spent your thirty pieces of
silver yet?

>>The gall and audacity that a charity supported
>>organization keeps files on private citizens to smear them is
>>abhorrent!

>What files are those, O Gutless One?

All of those files that Nizkooks tell others to read if they want to
see who is a drunken troll etc. and their versions or our posts via
their "Talmudic" commentaries.

>> [...deletia...]

>
>>DejaNews is the true archive- it preserves all.

>Except, of course, when Poor Ol' Gutless Scottie slips in an X-NO-ARCHIVE

>header, so his own words won't come back to haunt him...

I've only done that with material that is already archived. Can you
prove otherwise snake?

>>Nizkor's "archives" are mainly comments on posts that have been made.

I like the way that you deny that Nizkor represents people. Did I say
that they archived my whole posts? Why did I have to show their
comments and then show what I had actually posted? Here is what the
Jew said that I responded to (as shown in my full post below):

>Nizkor archives everything it can find of denier speech because
>the best way to show the deniers are stupid is
>to use their own words.

.......................................

Back to Jeffrey's smear agenda:

>Your evidence of this is...? (Answer: Non-existent, as usual.)

Yeah, it's non-existent as usual in your reply posts. You always
delete the evidence so you can lay on the personal attack and smear.
Sooner or later the political pendulum will swing and you'll be on the
outs as more people get tired of leftists and their politics. I
already see this taking place. Have you noticed how even in national
politics you lefties are doing the smear campaign such as what is
being done to Kenneth Starr? Everytime someone gets the goods on a
lefteist all the other radicals seek to assassinate that persons
character. You will sooner or later pay a price in the back lash as
more people get turned off with the left. The upcoming generation is
already getting touchy about the high taxes they will have to pay!

>> [...deletia...]

>Uh, Gutless: that's not an archive of any of your posts. It's an archive

>of one of Harry Katz's posts.

Never claimed it was! Can you prove otherwise snake? I maintain they
let their commentaries represent what we've said in our posts and the
whole point of the post that you have mainly destroyed in your reply
was to show the greta difference. Have no fear snake- I've attached my
original below so everyone may see how Nizkor and its minions operate.

>Actually, what _really_ seems to have Poor Ol' Gutless Scottie's knickers
>in a bunch is that the only thing in his "file" is a copy of a post by
>Linda Thompson, in which she says in part:

When have I mentioned Linda Thompson in this current thread snake?
Again you lie and you are trying to divert attention!

Yes, the same Linda Thompson that your kind lambast as a kook! Strange
you take her word now. You only convince me more each time that you do
this that your masters have indeed deserved every thing they have
received over the years. They get no sympathy from me as well as you
will get no sympathy from me. You are all about smear and deception.

> If you were exposing corruption and pointing out people by their names
> and deeds, you would have no need to refer to their race or religion.
> Their deeds, whatever their race or religion is, speak for themselves.
>
> However, when you blast an entire religious group, i.e., Jews, claiming
> they are all "bastards," or, as a group, are all rotten or underhanded,
> regardless of how much evidence you have of the crimes of any one or
> more individual persons who happen to be Jews, you paint with too broad
> a broad brush, and that is bigotted and disgusting and makes you appear
> to be a braindead neanderthal or a fed op, and the two are not mutually
> exclusive.
>
> Likewise, such claims are readily refuted by proof that many obvious
> "bastards" who are quite clearly the source of many of the problems in
> this country, are not Jews (or black), whereas, we have many Jewish and
> black members of the militias and who are patriots.
>
> Frankly, I think you are an ass, whether you are a fed plant or you
> really believe your own ranting.
>
>[...deletia...]
>
> ...I can't think of a faster way to see the type of things you
> preach be exposed as the nonsense it is, than to insure that you have a
> full forum to shout your views at all times for all to hear. So you
> would win your bet.
>
>Ouch! That's gotta hurt, Scottie.

Not really, all she could do is make name call, personal attack and
the cheap shots like you and your pals do- nothing substantial or
factual at all--- just smear and that is why Nizkor kept her words.
BTW how much of Thompson's words are on file at Nizkor?

>JGB

~~End of Jeffrey's Distortion & My Reply To It~~

What I actually posted versus Jeffrey's spin doctored version (for the
future archives and check the message IDs in the headers):

From: doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com (Doc Tavish)
Subject: Nizkor Should Be Run Out of Town at the ends of Pitch
Forks!Re: The Revisionists Beat Nizkor
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 02:20:13 GMT
Organization: McTavish Informational Services Worldwide
Lines: 681
Message-ID: <35a423f3....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>

Doc Tavish

unread,

Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 00:10:09 -0400, jeff_...@bigfoot.com (Jeffrey G.
Brown) wrote:

>In article <35a436d3....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, Scott "beat you to a

>bloody pulp" Bradbury (doc_t...@bigfoot.com, phi...@phoenix.net) wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 02:25:00 GMT, elect...@nospam.bigfoot.com
>>(Electric Zen) wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 02:20:13 GMT, doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com (Doc
>>>Tavish) wrote:
>>
>>>>I have a very damning bit of evidence how they "archive" people's
>>>>words versus how DejaNews archives the words. I want you to read my
>>>>example and you actually tell all of us that Nizkor archived my words
>>>>even remotely being representative of what I said!
>>>
>>>Actually, I just has a quick peek and didn't see you archived at
>>>Nizkor at all. Seems your second-rate bigoted trash doesn't even
>>>deserve a mention.
>>
>>From the same Nizkor link that Ken Lewis says doesn't exist:
>

>Poor Ol' Gutless Scottie is lying -- again. Ken Lewis didn't mention the
>post that The Gutless One is obsessing about. He merely said that he
>'didn't see [Bradbury] archived at Nizkor at all' -- and he's not. The
>archive labelled 'tavish' contains only a response to a post from Linda
>Thompson, who berates Scottie for his blanket condemnation of Jews and
>speculates that he may be a federal agent trying to discredit US
>dissidents.

What do you think snake? Am I a federal agent? I do have the goods on
you! What do you think now? :-)

>In short, Poor Ol' Gutless Scottie doesn't rate any significant space on
>the Nizkor server.
>

>JGB
>
>=====================================================================
>Jeffrey G. Brown jeff_...@bigfoot.com
> "What's going to happen?" "Something wonderful..." -- '2010'

"Those that continually chunk rocks at hornet's nest must not

Doc Tavish

unread,

Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 00:22:23 -0400, jeff_...@bigfoot.com (Jeffrey G.
Brown) wrote:

>In article <35a43f58....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, Scott "beat you to a

>bloody pulp" Bradbury (doc_t...@bigfoot.com, phi...@phoenix.net) wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 03:35:36 GMT, elect...@nospam.bigfoot.com
>>(Electric Zen) wrote:
>

>> [...deletia...]
>
>[Gutless Bradbury sez:]

>>>>Now back to the actual Nizkor archive that Kike Lewis denies at the
>>>>moment:
>>>
>>>>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/t/people/k/katz.harry/1998/katz.9806
>>
>>>Looks like an archive of a Harry Katz post, not yours.
>>
>>Yes it is an archive of a Harry Katz post at Nizkor and my previous
>>post showed both Nizkor's version and my version at DejaNews.
>

>'Nizkor's version' is an archive of one of Harry Katz's posts. Bradbury's
>'version' isn't a 'version' of that post at all -- it's a copy of one of
>his own posts, which is _not_ archived at Nizkor.
>
>> [...deletia...]
>

>>[Notice the message IDs match perfectly too. How damned desperate can
>>these people be to try to pull fast ones like this?
>

>What 'fast one' did they pull, Gutless? Do you have evidence that the
>headers in the Katz post have been altered in some way?

I made no such claim. Care to show that I have snake? I maintain that
what Nizkor does is to misrepresent what others say- just as you do in
ALL of your reply posts. They keep files on private citizens and their
whole task appears to be smear!

Here is what a Nizkook had just posted. Care to deny they don't keep
files on people?

From: mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups:
alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.nswpp,altskinheads,alt.politics.white-power,triangle.politics
Subject: Re: The Revisionists Beat Nizkor
Message-ID: <mvanalst-090...@c678496-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com>
References: <6o0qaq$1...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
<35a40...@news.depaul.edu>
X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2
Lines: 56
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 08:53:53 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.1.96.222
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 01:53:53 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
Xref: ix.netcom.com alt.politics.nationalism.white:136406
alt.revisionism:268545 alt.politics.white-power:174486
triangle.politics:47258

In article <35a40...@news.depaul.edu>, "Daniel Mittleman"
<da...@cs.depaul.edu> wrote:

[snip]

> The answer, of course, is not that Giwer was a denier (he in fact is a

> fairly weak one), rather it is that Giwer is a troll, a bully, and
> engaged in posting behaviors - independent of content - that were
> impolite and in violation of his many ISP user agreements. It is
> possible, though I don't have evidence here in front of me to
> demonstrate it, that some of his own behaviors constituted criminal
> harassment.

See:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/edeiken.yale/att-960922
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/edeiken.yale/att-961016

[snip]

Mark

>
>JGB

Doc Tavish

unread,

Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

On Wed, 08 Jul 1998 23:57:38 -0400, jgb...@earthlink.net
Clearwater, Florida (Jeffrey G. Brown) wrote:

>In article <35a423f3....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, Scott "beat you to a

>bloody pulp" Bradbury (doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com, phi...@phoenix.net) wrote:
>
>>Nizkor's mission is primarily smear, libel, misrepresent etc. any and
>>all opposition!
>

>> [...deletia...]

>
>>The gall and audacity that a charity supported
>>organization keeps files on private citizens to smear them is
>>abhorrent!
>

>What files are those, O Gutless One?

Files such as you see as posted by Nizkook Mark Van Alswine in this
post. Care to deny that Nizkor keeps files on private citizens now
snake?

From: mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Subject: Re: The Revisionists Beat Nizkor
Message-ID: <mvanalst-090...@c678496-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com>
References: <6o0qaq$1...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
<35a40...@news.depaul.edu>
X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 08:53:53 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.1.96.222
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 01:53:53 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
Xref: ix.netcom.com alt.politics.nationalism.white:136406
alt.revisionism:268545 alt.politics.white-power:174486
triangle.politics:47258

In article <35a40...@news.depaul.edu>, "Daniel Mittleman"
<da...@cs.depaul.edu> wrote:

[snip]

> The answer, of course, is not that Giwer was a denier (he in fact is a

> fairly weak one), rather it is that Giwer is a troll, a bully, and
> engaged in posting behaviors - independent of content - that were
> impolite and in violation of his many ISP user agreements. It is
> possible, though I don't have evidence here in front of me to
> demonstrate it, that some of his own behaviors constituted criminal
> harassment.

See:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/edeiken.yale/att-960922
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/edeiken.yale/att-961016

[snip]

Mark

~~~End of Van Alswine's Prattle~~~

Examples of Van Alswine's hypocrisy and smear campaign:

http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=197303070
Subject: Re: The Giwer-Swine (tm)
From: mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Date: 1996/11/18
Message-ID: <mvanalst-181...@rbi143.rbi.com>

In article <328e2e7b...@news.micron.net>, kurt...@micron.net
(Kurt Stele) wrote:

> On Sat, 16 Nov 1996 08:30:18 -0700, mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van
> Alstine) wrote:
>
> [more impotent mind-numbing mantra]
>
> Kurt Stele

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian
Smith's (aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi
apologia, and that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a
sewer mouth) please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

~~~~~~~End of DejaNews Archive~~~~~~~~~

Hmmmh more proof that Nizkor keeps files on private citizens and I'll
bet that you won't see any of Nizkor's victims actual words either-
they will be just commentaries (meant to smear!)

Let us look at some shining examples of a "sewer mouth." Mark accused
others BUT what has Mark said? Let us see!

http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=235940776
Subject: Re: ARROGANCE that is j*ws I
From: mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Date: 1997/04/19

[...]

> Tavish inquires:
> When did you become a consummate expert on sex with animals Mark?

Ever since "Tavish" started getting fucked by his dog.

It's amazing the things Nazis will do in public.

[snip]

Mark

Also see (must see):
http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=236433341
Subject: Van Alstine's Sewer Mouth
From: Doc Tavish <who-knows?@phoenix.net>
Date: 1997/04/22
Message-ID: <335C4B...@phoenix.net>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=364645182
Subject: Re: Gas-Chamber Hol*caust?

From: mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine)

Date: 1998/06/21

Translation: "I'm fucked. Time to get the hell out of Dodge! Again."

[That's right you lil' bastard- the whole town is coming after you
with pitch forks! 7/9/98 Tavish comment]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=310034617
Subject: Re: Laura's Personal Ad
From: gmc...@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Date: 1997/12/25
Message-ID: <sslVPIkQhwCl-pn2-yIYg2MjU6dTq@localhost>

[...]

> >> Mark Van Alstine
> >> ---------------
> >> > And Mr. Samuels is a big-time Nazi cocksucker....And that just grates on
> >> Mr. Samuels like being fucked in the ass with sandin his vasaline...
> >> > So who gives a shit what Mr. Samuels thinks? His Nazi bumboys maybe?
....................................

Xref: http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=309420044
Subject: Re: Laura's Personal Ad
From: gmc...@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Date: 1997/12/22

[...]

> > ChuckF666 wrote:
> > >
> > > Samuels...
> > >
> > > STICK IT IN YOUR EAR.
> >
> > Chuck......STICK IT UP YOUR ASS!
>
> With Mr. Samual's obvious anal penetration fetish, he should take care
> when his Nazi bumboys "do" him. One wouldn't want him to contract
> HIV....
>
> Wouldn't one?

The operative expression there is "do him" (note that MVA put "do": in
quotes). Combined with the reference to what MVA claimed was Samuels'
anal penetration fetish, that would mean: "...his Nazi minions (or
robotic pals) have anal intercourse with him".

> Mark Van Alstine
> ---------------
> > And Mr. Samuels is a big-time Nazi cocksucker....And that just grates on
> Mr. Samuels like being fucked in the ass with sandin his vasaline...
> > So who gives a shit what Mr. Samuels thinks? His Nazi bumboys maybe?

Ditto.

> > Surely not the rest of the human race...
> > And Mr. Samuels is a digusting pile of Nazi dogshit...
> > No, Mr. Samuels believes in lies and hate and being porked in the butt by
> > his Nazi bumboys...> Or would he rather bend over and grab his ankles for
> his Nazi bumboys again?

Ditto. Ditto.

Posted and e-mailed.
--
Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net>

~~~~~End of Archival Posting~~~~~~~~

I posted in context and NOT sound bites. I provided the links so
verification may be made. Now I ask for Mark Van Alswine to refer to
someone else having a "sewer mouth" and then telling others to go to
Nizkor and see examples then what does this tell you all? Do any of
you believe for a minute that Nizkor has files on Van Alswine's "sewer
mouth"?

Now that I think about it- I'd love to see each Nizkook "count twenty-
five" at a public whipping post for their libel and done in principle
with the 40 allowed by Jews in Deut 25: 1-3. They deserve a good
thorough scourging!

Deuteronomy 25:1-3 (English-RSV)
1 "If there is a dispute between men, and they come into court, and
the judges decide between them, acquitting the innocent and condemning
the guilty,
2 then if the guilty man deserves to be beaten, the judge shall cause
him to lie down and be beaten in his presence with a number of stripes
in proportion to his offense.
3 Forty stripes may be given him, but not more; lest, if one should go
on to beat him with more stripes than these, your brother be degraded
in your sight.

I'd be more merciful than the Jews; I'd only want Jeffrey Georg Brown
and his fellow Nizkooks to only "count twenty-five" - they thoroughly
deserve each and every one!

I'd bet that ol' Jeffrey would be the one frothing at the mouth after
Bruno laid on the fifth lash! :-)

From: jeff_...@bigfoot.com (Jeffrey G. Brown)

Subject: Poor Ol' Gutless Scottie froths at the mouth some more
Message-ID: <jeff_brown-09...@38.27.217.197>

Doc Tavish

>JGB

Billy Bob Throckmorton

unread,

Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

In article <35a4a3c3....@news.flash.net>,
doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com says...

>
>On Wed, 08 Jul 1998 23:57:38 -0400, jgb...@earthlink.net
>Clearwater, Florida (Jeffrey G. Brown) wrote:

>>>Nizkor's mission is primarily smear, libel, misrepresent etc. any and
>>>all opposition!

>>> [...deletia...]

>>>The gall and audacity that a charity supported
>>>organization keeps files on private citizens to smear them is
>>>abhorrent!

>>What files are those, O Gutless One?

<snip>

>Xref: http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=309420044
>Subject: Re: Laura's Personal Ad
>From: gmc...@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
>Date: 1997/12/22
>
>[...]

>> Mark Van Alstine

>> ---------------
>> > And Mr. Samuels is a big-time Nazi cocksucker....And that just grates
>> >on Mr. Samuels like being fucked in the ass with sandin his vasaline...
>> > So who gives a shit what Mr. Samuels thinks? His Nazi bumboys maybe?

Look Jeffrey, you have found yo a running mate! Your pal Mark Van Alstine is
all hung up on vaseline....

He is afterall your ally is he not? Care to deny the "kinship?"

I don't know if Van Alstin'es rhetoric "bumboys" is pedophiliac or not, you
might ought to ask him the next time you two are out cruising the bars
together! :-)

Billy Bob

>>JGB

--
NAMBLA's poster boy in USENET identified click:
http://x12.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=364005934
http://x7.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=366357710
http://x2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=324789265
http://x2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=346108130
Jeffrey G. Brown = jgb...@earthlink.net

Jeffrey G. Brown

unread,

Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

In article <35a4894f....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, Scott "beat you to a

bloody pulp" Bradbury (doc_t...@bigfoot.com, phi...@phoenix.net) wrote:

>On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 04:38:32 GMT, dc...@atlcom.net (dckom) wrote:

> [...deletia...]

>>"Doc", you're being deliberately obtuse. Of course there are few of your
>>words in the archived post. It wasn't your bloody post!
>
>I did not claim that it was my post!

Sure you did, Gutless. You've been referring constantly to the 'Nizkor
version' of your post, when it's not your post at all. In short, you've
been lying -- just as you always do.

>It was Nizkor's version of what I said.

No, it's Nizkor's archive of what Harry Katz said in reply to one of your posts.

Jeffrey G. Brown

unread,

Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

In article <35a48a43....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, Scott "beat you to a

bloody pulp" Bradbury (doc_t...@bigfoot.com, phi...@phoenix.net) wrote:

>On Wed, 08 Jul 1998 23:57:38 -0400, jeff_...@bigfoot.com (Jeffrey G.
>Brown) wrote:
>
>>In article <35a423f3....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, Scott "beat you to a
>>bloody pulp" Bradbury (doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com,
phi...@phoenix.net) wrote:

> [...deletia...]

>>>DejaNews is the true archive- it preserves all.
>
>>Except, of course, when Poor Ol' Gutless Scottie slips in an X-NO-ARCHIVE
>>header, so his own words won't come back to haunt him...
>
>I've only done that with material that is already archived. Can you
>prove otherwise snake?

Nope. But you're obviously not interested in having _all_ your words
archived -- any more than you're interested in taking responsibility for
them.

>>>Nizkor's "archives" are mainly comments on posts that have been made.
>
>I like the way that you deny that Nizkor represents people.

I note the way you lie -- again -- about my having said something I never
said. How fortunate that it will be archived.

> [...deletia...]

>>Your evidence of this is...? (Answer: Non-existent, as usual.)
>
>Yeah, it's non-existent as usual in your reply posts. You always
>delete the evidence so you can lay on the personal attack and smear.
>Sooner or later the political pendulum will swing and you'll be on the
>outs as more people get tired of leftists and their politics. I
>already see this taking place. Have you noticed how even in national
>politics you lefties are doing the smear campaign such as what is
>being done to Kenneth Starr? Everytime someone gets the goods on a
>lefteist all the other radicals seek to assassinate that persons
>character. You will sooner or later pay a price in the back lash as
>more people get turned off with the left. The upcoming generation is
>already getting touchy about the high taxes they will have to pay!

And we're _still_ waiting for Poor Ol' Gutless Scottie's evidence that
'Nizkor's "archives" are mainly comments on posts that have been made'.
I'm sure he'll post his statistical analysis of the entire Nizkor site
soon.

> [...deletia...]

>>>
>>> ~~~ End of Nizkor Version of What I Posted ~~~

>>>Well lurkers how much of my original post do you see?
>
>>Uh, Gutless: that's not an archive of any of your posts. It's an archive
>>of one of Harry Katz's posts.
>
>Never claimed it was! Can you prove otherwise snake?

Yup:

"End of Nizkor Version of What I Posted"

You didn't post it. Harry Katz did.

> [...deletia...]

>>Actually, what _really_ seems to have Poor Ol' Gutless Scottie's knickers
>>in a bunch is that the only thing in his "file" is a copy of a post by
>>Linda Thompson, in which she says in part:
>
>When have I mentioned Linda Thompson in this current thread snake?

Never claimed you did! Can you prove otherwise, maggot?

> [...deletia...]

>BTW how much of Thompson's words are on file at Nizkor?

Just enough to make you look like an ass, Scottie -- not, of course, that
you needed her help.

Jeffrey G. Brown

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Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

In article <35a4925c....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, Scott "beat you to a
bloody pulp" Bradbury (doc_t...@bigfoot.com, phi...@phoenix.net) wrote:

>On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 00:10:09 -0400, jeff_...@bigfoot.com (Jeffrey G.
>Brown) wrote:

> [...deletia...]

>>Poor Ol' Gutless Scottie is lying -- again. Ken Lewis didn't mention the
>>post that The Gutless One is obsessing about. He merely said that he
>>'didn't see [Bradbury] archived at Nizkor at all' -- and he's not. The
>>archive labelled 'tavish' contains only a response to a post from Linda
>>Thompson, who berates Scottie for his blanket condemnation of Jews and
>>speculates that he may be a federal agent trying to discredit US
>>dissidents.
>
>What do you think snake? Am I a federal agent? I do have the goods on
>you!

Oh, really? And what would those 'goods' be, O Gutless One?

Jeffrey G. Brown

unread,

Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

In article <35a4919d....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, Scott "beat you to a
bloody pulp" Bradbury (doc_t...@bigfoot.com, phi...@phoenix.net) wrote:

>On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 00:22:23 -0400, jeff_...@bigfoot.com (Jeffrey G.
>Brown) wrote:
>
>>In article <35a43f58....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, Scott "beat you to a

>>bloody pulp" Bradbury (doc_t...@bigfoot.com, phi...@phoenix.net) wrote:

> [...deletia...]

>>>[Notice the message IDs match perfectly too. How damned desperate can
>>>these people be to try to pull fast ones like this?
>>

>>What 'fast one' did they pull, Gutless? Do you have evidence that the
>>headers in the Katz post have been altered in some way?
>
>I made no such claim.

Then where's the 'fast one', Gutless?

> [...deletia...]

>They keep files on private citizens and their whole task appears to be smear!
>
>Here is what a Nizkook had just posted. Care to deny they don't keep
>files on people?

Interesting change in terminology -- first, it's "files on private
citizens", in an attempt to imply that Nizkor is somehow spying on folks.
Now that the point has been raised that Nizkor archives public utterings,
Poor Ol' Gutless Scottie has to make a not-so-subtle shift to "files on
people".

If the question is "Does Nizkor keep files on people?", the answer has to
be "Yes". But the next question is "What kind of files?". Nizkor archives
the words and documents the actions of Holocaust deniers. In large part,
these words and actions are what transpires over the Internet, usually in
the form of posts to public Usenet groups. If these folks have a problem
with their public utterances being archived, maybe they ought to
reconsider what they're uttering.

Jeffrey G. Brown

unread,

Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

Scott Bradbury's use of known forgeries to smear his opponents and bolster
his anti-Semitic allegations has been well documented many times in the
past. The relevant evidence is summarized below:

(1) The 'Herman Hedtoft' forgeries

On 13 April 1997 a post allegedly from grea...@mindspring.com ('Herman
Hedtoft') appeared, containing the following statement:

> I'm a gay male and I belong to MABLA (Man-Boy Love Association).

Examination of the full headers of the post conclusively demonstrated that
it originated at 129.37.181.154, which is a dial-in port for ibm.net. This
established that it was not posted by grea...@mindspring.com, and was
pointed out almost immediately after the post appeared. Nonetheless,
Bradbury persisted in citing it for months afterward as though it were
authentic.

Interestingly enough, less than a month later another post allegedly from
"Herman H. Hedtoft" appeared. This post, filled with the same endlessly
reposted text common in Bradbury's diatribes, actually originated at
Phoenix.net, Bradbury's own ISP. The relevant headers follow:

Path: szdc2!szdc!zdc!super.zippo.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!
cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!
europa.clark.net!newsfeed2!gryphon.phoenix.net!not-for-mail
From: "Herman H. Hedtoft" <Quay...@primenet.net>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.nationalism.white,
alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.german,
soc.culture.ukrainian,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: China's Communism Sprang From Documented!
Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 18:23:14 -0500
Organization: The Hedtoft Family of Bedlam
Message-ID: <336A77...@primenet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial7.bellville.phoenix.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I)

Scott Bradbury has proclaimed loudly and often his dedication to the
search for "Truth". Why is it, then, that he is so often found to have
lied about who he is and what others have said?

(2) The 'Jeffrey G. Brown' forgeries

Two posts appeared on 6 June and 8 June 1997 purporting to be admissions
of child molestation by myself. The first is an amazingly inept forgery;
its complete text is shown below:

Jeffrey G. Brown wrote:

I belong to NAMBLA and I am gay; I can butt fuck little boys all day.

>
> JGB
>
> =====================================================================
> Jeffrey G. Brown jeff_...@bigfoot.com
> "What's going to happen?" "Something wonderful..." -- '2010'

Clearly the author simply hit the 'Reply' button on his newsreader, edited
out everything above my signature block, and inserted the single line of
text. No attempt was made to change the header, which clearly showed the
author's name and his ISP:

Path: szdc2!super.zippo.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!europa.clark.net!
news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!
news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!207.43.3.4!
gryphon.phoenix.net!not-for-mail
From: Jim Dyer <jd...@vidnet.net>
Newsgroups: triangle.politics,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Strom Lies
Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 08:27:01 -0500
Organization: Dyer's Laundry Services
Message-ID: <339810...@vidnet.net>
Reply-To: jd...@vidnet.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial2.vidnet.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I)

The second forgery two days later was a bit more polished, though not by
much; its headers also clearly betrayed its origins:

Path: szdc2!super.zippo.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!
news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!
news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!207.43.3.4!gryphon.phoenix.net!
not-for-mail
From: "Jeffrey G. Brown" <jeff_...@bigfoot.com>
Newsgroups: triangle.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,
alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.correct
Subject: Re: Strom Lies
Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 07:46:03 -0500
Organization: None
Message-ID: <339AA9...@bigfoot.com>
Reply-To: jeff_...@bigfoot.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial1.vidnet.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I)

Shortly after these posts appeared, I pointed out the discrepancies which
revealed them as forgeries:

Here's some additional "documented and informative material": First,
both forgeries bear an offset in the timestamp of -0500 (mine are
marked -0400)... that, of course, is the correct offset for Central
Time, and matches nicely with Bradbury's location in Texas. Second,
whereas my posts are marked as being generated with NewsWatcher 2.4.0,
the forgeries that Bradbury has been reposting were created with
Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) -- just like Bradbury's own posts.

I can't really say that Bradbury is himself responsible for posting
the original forgeries. My own belief is that an individual using the
ID "Jim Dyer" created and posted the forgeries. Whether this is
Bradbury under another ID, or merely a friend of his, cannot be
determined. Bradbury almost certainly knows that they are forgeries,
however, and his continued use of them is most enlightening.

I do await, with great interest, Bradbury's explanation of just how
his continued use of known forgeries can be reconciled with his
posturing as a "truth teller". The answer to that question should
prove most amusing -- should Bradbury ever find the courage to address
it.

Bradbury still uses these in his ceaseless smear campaign -- and we still
wait for him to explain why a "truth teller" uses forgeries to tell his
"truth".

(3) The 'Mark Rosenblatt' forgeries

In July and November of 1997, an individual claiming to be 'Mark
Rosenblatt' of the 'Human Rights Council of Galveston County - Texas' (an
organization of which no trace has ever been found) posted images to
Usenet which purported to be "photographic proof of the torture of
Palestinian detainees". The images were all typical of those found in the
alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.* hierarchy, and no documentary evidence
that the individual depicted were in fact "Palestinian detainees" has ever
been offered. Oddly enough, each post originated from Bradbury's own ISP,
Phoenix.net, as shown below (note also the strange inconsistencies in
'Rosenblatt's" user ID):

Path: plnews!super.zippo.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!news-sea-19.sprintlink.net!
news-in-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!207.43.3.4!
gryphon.phoenix.net!not-for-mail
From: mro...@hrc.intcomm.net (Mark Rosenblatt)
Subject: #1 Israeli Torture of Palestinian Women - hrc1.jpg (1/1)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 18:25:33 GMT
Message-ID: <33c6740c...@news.phoenix.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial6.cc.intcomm.net

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: plnews!super.zippo.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!
news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!
news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!207.43.3.4!gryphon.phoenix.net!not-for-mail
From: mro...@hrc.tgn.com (Mark Rosenblatt)
Subject: #1 Israeli Torture of Palestinian Women - hrc1.jpg (1/1)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 20:22:01 GMT
Message-ID: <33c695d8...@news.phoenix.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial19.tgn.net

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: plnews!super.zippo.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!infeed1.internetmci.com!
newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!
news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!
news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!
Sprint!207.43.3.4!gryphon.phoenix.net!not-for-mail
From: mro...@hrc.tgn.com (Mark Rosenblatt)
Subject: #1 Israeli Torture of Palestinian Women - hrc1.jpg (1/1)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 22:58:00 GMT
Message-ID: <33c6ba65...@news.phoenix.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial19.tgn.net

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: plnews!super.zippo.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!
cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!
news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!
news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!
Sprint!207.43.3.4!gryphon.phoenix.net!not-for-mail
From: mro...@hrc.tgn.com (Mark Rosenblatt)
Subject: #2 Israeli Torture of Palestinian Women - hrc2.jpg (1/1)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 20:30:16 GMT
Message-ID: <33c6730f...@news.phoenix.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial21.tgn.net

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: plnews!super.zippo.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!
cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!
news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!
news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!
Sprint!207.43.3.4!gryphon.phoenix.net!not-for-mail
From: mro...@hrc.tgn.com (Mark Rosenblatt)
Subject: #3 Israeli Torture of Palestinian Women - hrc3.jpg (1/1)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 20:33:25 GMT
Message-ID: <33c67425...@news.phoenix.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial21.tgn.net

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: szdc!super.zippo.com!lotsanews.com!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!
news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!
news-sea-19.sprintlink.net!news-in-west.sprintlink.net!
news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!207.43.3.4!
gryphon.phoenix.net!uhura1.phoenix.net!not-for-mail
From: mro...@hrc.galv.phoenix.net (Mark Rosenblatt)
Subject: 1st Reply to Torture (was Re: Israeli Terror Calendar -
November 11) - hannukah.gif (1/1)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 01:50:47 GMT
Message-ID: <346e4ff8...@news.phoenix.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial14.galv.phoenix.net

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: szdc!super.zippo.com!lotsanews.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!
news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-sea-19.sprintlink.net!
news-in-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!207.43.3.4!
gryphon.phoenix.net!uhura1.phoenix.net!not-for-mail
From: mro...@hrc.galv.phoenix.net (Mark Rosenblatt)
Subject: 4th Reply to Torture (was Re: Israeli Terror Calendar -
November 11) - shut_up.gif (1/1)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 02:16:32 GMT
Message-ID: <346e500a...@news.phoenix.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial14.galv.phoenix.net

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: szdc!super.zippo.com!lotsanews.com!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!
news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!
news-sea-19.sprintlink.net!news-in-west.sprintlink.net!
news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!207.43.3.4!gryphon.phoenix.net!
uhura1.phoenix.net!not-for-mail
From: mro...@hrc.galv.phoenix.net (Mark Rosenblatt)
Subject: 2nd Reply to Torture (was Re: Israeli Terror Calendar -
November 11) - 4bagel.gif (1/1)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 02:01:13 GMT
Message-ID: <346e4ffe...@news.phoenix.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial14.galv.phoenix.net

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: szdc!super.zippo.com!lotsanews.com!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!
news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!
news-sea-19.sprintlink.net!news-in-west.sprintlink.net!
news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!207.43.3.4!gryphon.phoenix.net!
uhura1.phoenix.net!not-for-mail
From: mro...@hrc.galv.phoenix.net (Mark Rosenblatt)
Subject: 5th Reply to Torture (was Re: Israeli Terror Calendar -
November 11) - caged.gif (1/1)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 02:19:38 GMT
Message-ID: <346e5010...@news.phoenix.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial14.galv.phoenix.net

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: szdc!super.zippo.com!lotsanews.com!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!
news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!
news-sea-19.sprintlink.net!news-in-west.sprintlink.net!
news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!207.43.3.4!gryphon.phoenix.net!
uhura1.phoenix.net!not-for-mail
From: mro...@hrc.galv.phoenix.net (Mark Rosenblatt)
Subject: 3rd Reply to Torture (was Re: Israeli Terror Calendar -
November 11) - pressure.gif (1/1)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 02:07:48 GMT
Message-ID: <346e5004...@news.phoenix.net>
References: <346D2A4A...@drillgum.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial14.galv.phoenix.net

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The headers shown above all support the theory that Scott Bradbury was
responsible for posting the 'Rosenblatt' forgeries. It was Richard
Schultz, however, who provided the final bit of evidence. Even Bradbury's
fellow bigots were forced to admit that he was, in fact, the guilty party.

I had noticed that all of this "Israeli Torture" material was somehow
being crossposted to the (non-existent) group "soc.culture.israeli"
(the correct name is soc.culture.israel). Now, if you go to Deja News
and do a search on those articles in alt.revisionism in which
"soc.culture.israeli" appears, you will get 261 hits. Of those, the
majority are followups to other articles, ones in which presumably the
header was kept unchanged from previous posts in the thread. If,
however, you look for those posts that are *not* followups and *were*
crossposted to "soc.culture.israeli," you will find that they come
from two, and only two, sources: "Doc Tavish" and "Mark Rosenblatt."
I would dearly love to see Jerry Abbott's explanation of this one that
is more straightforward than the obvious conclusion that "Doc Tavish"
and "Mark Rosenblatt" (both of whom post from phoenix.net) are the
same person.

-- From: sch...@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz)
-- Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
-- Subject: The Smoking Gun (was Re: The 'Israeli Torture'
Forgeries)
-- Date: 6 Aug 1997 08:48:16 GMT
-- Message-ID: <5s9dog$j5m$2...@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>

Once again, we are moved to ponder the 'Bradbury paradox': how is it that
Scott Bradbury so often chooses to employ forgeries and lies in his
self-proclaimed quest for "truth"?

Eric Townsend

unread,

Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

ns...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> THE REVISIONISTS HAVE WON
>

> Dear Harold:

>
> I am not certain, but I think we may be witnessing the
> gradual fading to black of Nizkor; I would not be at all

> -Name withheld as writer is
> an active NA member

The truth of this post isn't there, Harold. The fact is that most NA
members *hate* you and wouldn't take the time to write **you** such a
post in the first place. Also, it seems to be written well in **your**
form. All the NA member posts I ever read were never so articulate. So
your "letter from an active NA member" seems to be another Harold
"hoax".

Also, after further reading your post, Harold, I just couldn't help but
laugh. What would a clueless NA member know about Nizkor? Nothing. So
your piece of fiction about what an NA member thinks about what is
happening at Nizkor is nothing more than another grasping at straws. I
put this in the same category as "Harold Wins"... a reversal of the
actual truth.

Speaking of truth, check out the Nizkor website at:
http://www.nizkor.org

Eric

Doc Tavish

unread,

Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

jeff_...@bigfoot.com (Jeffrey G. Brown)
Subject: Poor Ol' Gutless Scottie, off in his own little world
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 20:10:31 -0400
Message-ID: <jeff_brown-07...@38.27.216.108>
References: <DISAP-06079...@ppp-67-70.dialup.winternet.com>
<35a17e54....@news.tavish-central.net>
<35a586d3...@news.abccom.bc.ca>
<35a190b4....@news.tavish-central.net>
<jeff_brown-07...@38.27.217.161>
<35a2a1fa....@news.tavish-central.net>

Compare the very last link in the message IDs:
<35a2a1fa....@news.tavish-central.net>

to the message ID of my original post- they're the same. Does the
"post" that Jeffrey is now replying to look like my original?
...........................................................

On Tue, 07 Jul 1998 20:10:31 -0400, jgb...@earthlink.net (Jeffrey G.
Brown) wrote:

>In article <35a2a1fa....@news.tavish-central.net>, Scott "beat you
>to a bloody pulp" Bradbury (doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com, phi...@phoenix.net)
>wrote:

>> [...deletia...]

>>>>I know why you deleted my whole text because I hinted about your kin's
>>>>affinity toward homosexuality after all it was both you and Hot Lips
>>>>McVay defending the gay community just a week or so ago.

>>>Nope. Ken McVay didn't mention homosexuality.

>>He doesn't have to mention "homosexuality" - the post reeks with their
>>apologia for it!

>Ah -- Ken McVay didn't mention homosexuality, but he was discussing it
>nonetheless.

Did I say that he was "discussing homosexuality" as you are now trying
to attribute to me? Have I said that he "mentioned homosexuality" as
you keep attributing to me as saying? What did the preceding sentence
say? You only show how bad of a spin doctor you are. You're really not
quite up to it are you?

>As usual, the facts are irrelevant to The Gutless One.

The "FACTS" are the very words that McVay had said- the words that you
keep deleting in their entireity- the words which show that you are
being deceptive! The lurkers will know.

>The only reality he is capable of discussing is the rather tenuous one between
>his ears.

All you have is name calling, personal attacks, childish subject
titles and the like but you have no facts- only diversion.

>> [...deletia...]

Yeh deleting is all Jeffrey can do when he's boxed into a corner and
can't cope!

===Restoration of My Original Words and Their Intent===

For the sake of the lurkers; look at what Jeffrey Georg Brown keeps
deleting. He can't reply to the post in its proper phrasing and
intent. He can only reply to his version of what "I said." What does
this say of his abilities?

What was said (in reality):

From: doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com (Doc Tavish)
Subject: Nizkorites: How Do You Explain The Apologia and Asking of
Tolerance if it is not for the Homosexual Acts of the Gay Community?
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 22:44:41 GMT
Organization: McTavish Informational Services Worldwide

Message-ID: <35a2a1fa....@news.tavish-central.net>

On Tue, 07 Jul 1998 00:16:22 -0400, jgb...@earthlink.net (Jeffrey G.
Brown) wrote:

>In article <35a190b4....@news.tavish-central.net>, Scott "beat you
>to a bloody pulp" Bradbury (doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com, phi...@phoenix.net)
>wrote:

>>No wonder
>>certain people found so many willing executioners among their
>>population in the 30s. Your kind does bring out the worse in people
>>don't they?

>'Fraid not, Scottie. It's folks like yourself who decide to express
>nothing but the worst in yourselves. Once again, you prove yourself unable
>to shoulder the responsibility for your own actions, choosing instead to
>find someone else to blame for your own character flaws.

>>I know why you deleted my whole text because I hinted about your kin's
>>affinity toward homosexuality after all it was both you and Hot Lips
>>McVay defending the gay community just a week or so ago.

>Nope. Ken McVay didn't mention homosexuality.

He doesn't have to mention "homosexuality" - the post reeks with their
apologia for it! I say again; if Hot Lips McGay "preaches" tolerance
toward the gay community then is he not making apologia for what they
do? Now I ask you, why are they called homosexual if it is not their
sexual practices? Is it their diet? I guess that could be a point
because they do eat certain things don't they? How do you explain Hot
Lips McGay's post?

I.E.

http://x13.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=365864512
Subject: Dear Nizkor, We have another way to hate...
From: kmc...@nizkor.org (Kenneth McVay OBC)
Date: 1998/06/25
Message-ID: <6msk97$hgk$1...@news.trends.ca>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,can.general,tor.general
NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jun 1998 04:39:03 GMT
Organization: The Nizkor Project - http://www.nizkor.org

In article <3593c583....@news.abccom.bc.ca>,
Electric Zen <elect...@nospam.bigfoot.com> wrote:

[deranged bonehead displays homophobia, Ken Lewis responds]

>Notice how another 'revisionist', unable to support his arguments with
>facts, resorts to teenaged sexual comments. Were all of you maroons
>cloned from the same defective brain cell?

That would certainly explain why they don't have more than a single
functioning neuron between them, would it not?

This discussion reminds me - Saturday, June 28, is Pride Day. There
will be a massive parade in Toronto and other cities. Folks who would
like to stand up and be counted for tolerance should attend. Last
year, about a million spectators lined the Toronto route.

(The Phelps Clan should probably stay home - they don't know the
meaning of tolerance.)

A sobering reminder: During the past ten years, one half of Canada's
arts community has died of AIDS. _Half_ - Dancers, actors, artists of
all sorts. Such a loss cannot help but have a devastating impact upon
our cultural life, and homophobic cheap shots don't remove this very
sad reality.

"Revisionist" my Aunt Tildy. These twits wouldn't know a revisionist
if he bit them in their nether regions.

--
The Nizkor Project-----------------------http://www.nizkor.org
Ken McVay, Director. http://www.nizkor.org/~kmcvay

Georg it appears to me that both Kens are making apologia for and
seeking sympathy for the gay community. If they aren't referring to
homosexuals then why are the words "homophobia" and "homophobic"
brought up? Why is the Phelps Family included in the post? We all know
that Phelps had or has godhatesfags.com.

BTW Jeffrey why does McGay bring up the nether regions?

>That was -- once again --
>brought up by Poor Ol' Gutless Scottie, who doesn't seem able to restrain
>himself from bringing up his sexual obsessions at every opportunity.
>
>JGB

==End of Restoration of My Original and Actual Words==

Back to Jeffrey's version of what I said:

>_Everything_ appears to Poor Ol' Gutless Scottie to involve homosexuality
>and the gay community.

Well what group is the post referring to? The ROTARIANS or the
KIWANIS? I don't think so for a single minute! If they use the words
"homphobe" . "homophobia" , "AIDS" and "pride" plus a parade in which
all shows their support of tolerance then what could this be? They are
talking about homosexuals, their activity and their high death rates
from AIDS!

>He steers virtually every discussion he takes part
>in to that topic. And _then_ he accuses those who disagree with him of
>being homosexuals, pedophiles, or both -- using forged posts, if
>necessary, as "evidence".

I didn't forge the post above Georg and the comments I made about it
are fair and very objective. Face it you can't deal with the facts!

Doc Tavish

unread,

Jul 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/9/98

to

On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 02:25:00 GMT, elect...@nospam.bigfoot.com
(Electric Zen) wrote:

>On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 02:20:13 GMT, doc_t...@DELETEME.bigfoot.com (Doc
>Tavish) wrote:

>>I have a very damning bit of evidence how they "archive" people's
>>words versus how DejaNews archives the words. I want you to read my
>>example and you actually tell all of us that Nizkor archived my words
>>even remotely being representative of what I said!
>
>Actually, I just has a quick peek and didn't see you archived at
>Nizkor at all. Seems your second-rate bigoted trash doesn't even
>deserve a mention.