As blue as blue can be
Matt Giwer
Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad, describing gassing in
Krema I in Auschwitz
[Quoted in "KL Auschwitz as Seen by the SS", p. 176]
-------------------------------------------------------------
... The "disinfectors" were at work. One of them was
SS-Unterscharfuehrer
Teuer, decorated with the Cross of War Merit. With a chisel and a
hammer they opened a few innocuously looking tins which bore the
inscription "Cyclon, to be used against vermin. Attention, poison!
to be opened by trained personnel only!". The tins were filled to
the brim with blue granules the size of peas. Immediately after
opening the tins, their contents was thrown into the holes which
were then quickly covered. Meanwhile Grabner gave a sign to the driver
of a lorry, which had stopped close to the crematorium. The driver
started the motor and its deafening noise was louder than the
death cries of the hundreds of people inside, being gassed to death.
Of course everyone agrees, even our chemists, that there is no chemical
reaction and that they would be grey not blue. But then this man saw
blue. How can we explain an eyewitness seeing something he could not
see?
Richard J. Green
In article <4pklrb$t...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
As Mr. Giwer knows Mr. Mazal has documented that one of the forms of
Zyklon-B was silica gel impregnated with HCN. Has Mr. Giwer never seen
blue silica gel?
Mr. Giwer's ad hominem attacks should be understood as an admission that
he is wrong. Experience has led me to believe that Mr. Giwer is not at
all interested in serious conversation. While he can sound superficially
plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
respond except to make it clear that his arguments cannot be taken
seriously. For detailed and documented evidence of this behaviour,
please refer to
URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
"Are you saying that I should have insulting the Jewish
reputation for integrity by saying only Jew and thus
implying that we is observant?" --Matt Giwer
(Translation into English not yet available.)
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green Dept. of Chemistry
r...@lyman.Stanford.EDU Stanford University
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud Stanford, CA 94305-5080
"I've never been lost, but I've been confused for weeks on end."
-John Muir
Matt Giwer
And everyone also knows that is pure bullshit and that the Zyklon B was
HCN in a diatomite carrier. It is all right there on Nizkor. (Use the
powerful search engine to find it for yourself. I have posted it here
once.)
But then, let me ask you a question. Have you ever seen pea size silica
gel?
You are join "Mr. Mazel" in the lying and/or idiot category.
And do not forget, this is all from the "I refuse to make public"
patent.
Daniel Keren
mgi...@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
# Of course everyone agrees, even our chemists, that there is
# no chemical reaction and that they would be grey not blue.
The Zyklon was blue due to the color of the silica jel (aka
"Erco").
Go away, you're a joke.
Or, tell us more about the Belsen camp you claim was in Poland.
I still consider it to be one of your best.
# But then this man saw blue. How can we explain an eyewitness
# seeing something he could not see?
How can one expalin your alleged IQ (which you claim is 163),
when you're obviosuly mentally retarded?
-Danny Keren.
--
Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
-Lu Xun.
Richard J. Green
In article <4plqsr$s...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer <mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>> Of course everyone agrees, even our chemists, that there is no chemical
>>>reaction and that they would be grey not blue. But then this man saw
>>>blue. How can we explain an eyewitness seeing something he could not
>>>see?
>
>>As Mr. Giwer knows Mr. Mazal has documented that one of the forms of
>>Zyklon-B was silica gel impregnated with HCN. Has Mr. Giwer never seen
>>blue silica gel?
>
> And everyone also knows that is pure bullshit and that the Zyklon B was
>HCN in a diatomite carrier. It is all right there on Nizkor. (Use the
>powerful search engine to find it for yourself. I have posted it here
>once.)
Is it Mr. Giwer's assertion that there is only one form of Zyklon B?
Yes or no?
> You are join "Mr. Mazel" in the lying and/or idiot category.
Mr. Giwer's ad hominem attacks should be understood as an admission that
Mark Van Alstine
BEGIN -- Cut Here -- cut here
begin 644 Zyklon B.jpg
<uuencoded_portion_removed>
,/V223!.F22[IU__9
`
end
END -- Cut Here -- cut here
Mark Van Alstine
In article <4plqsr$s...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com (Matt
Giwer) wrote:
> r...@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>
> >In article <4pklrb$t...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
> >Matt Giwer <mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >>Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad, describing gassing in
> >>Krema I in Auschwitz
> >>[Quoted in "KL Auschwitz as Seen by the SS", p. 176]
> >>-------------------------------------------------------------
> >> ... The "disinfectors" were at work. One of them was
> >>SS-Unterscharfuehrer
> >>Teuer, decorated with the Cross of War Merit. With a chisel and a
> >>hammer they opened a few innocuously looking tins which bore the
> >>inscription "Cyclon, to be used against vermin. Attention, poison!
> >>to be opened by trained personnel only!". The tins were filled to
> >>the brim with blue granules the size of peas. Immediately after
> >>opening the tins, their contents was thrown into the holes which
> >>were then quickly covered. Meanwhile Grabner gave a sign to the driver
> >>of a lorry, which had stopped close to the crematorium. The driver
> >>started the motor and its deafening noise was louder than the
> >>death cries of the hundreds of people inside, being gassed to death.
> >>
> >>
> >> Of course everyone agrees, even our chemists, that there is no chemical
> >>reaction and that they would be grey not blue. But then this man saw
> >>blue. How can we explain an eyewitness seeing something he could not
> >>see?
>
> >As Mr. Giwer knows Mr. Mazal has documented that one of the forms of
> >Zyklon-B was silica gel impregnated with HCN. Has Mr. Giwer never seen
> >blue silica gel?
>
> And everyone also knows that is pure bullshit and that the Zyklon B was
> HCN in a diatomite carrier. It is all right there on Nizkor. (Use the
> powerful search engine to find it for yourself. I have posted it here
> once.)
What everyone, I believe, knows by now is that Giwer is ignorant and full
of bullshit! This can readily be seen by his above claim that the carrier
for Zyklon B could not be silica gel because it was diatomite. Indeed the
the carrier for Zyklon B was diatomite. Does Giwer know what diatomite is?
Obviously not!
diatomite - A hydrated silica, the remains of diatoms. The particles are
hollow and the material is used as a filler and an absorbent... (_The
Penguin Dictionary of Chemistry_, p.131.)
Hmmm, "hydrated silicia." Sure sounds a lot like "silica gel" to me!
Note: the term "gel" in this context does not necessarily imply elasticity
(like "Jell-O"). In the case of silica gel, which is an inorganic gel, it
is rigid (and irreversable) gel.
> But then, let me ask you a question. Have you ever seen pea size silica
> gel?
Certainly. Giwer too can also see them by turning to page 15 of Pressac's
_Technique_. However, considering Giwer's seeming fear of books, I have
attached an image file of the photo of the Zyklon B pellets from page 15
of _Technique_.
BTW, note the caption that says "...small blue pellets...."
^^^^
> You are join "Mr. Mazel" in the lying and/or idiot category.
On the contrary, Giwer, with his continued polemics and espousing of
absurdities in the face of fact, simply ensconces _himself_ as the King of
Fools.
> And do not forget, this is all from the "I refuse to make public"
> patent.
This from the Giwer-Troll, who "forgets" _every_ absurd, silly, false, and
deceitful claim he has made when he been _proven_ wrong? Pot. Kettle.
Black.
Which reminds me:
Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semitic troller whose only
interest is in slandering Jews and causing fights. While he can sometimes
sound superficially plausible, he has profusely and consistantly lied
about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying),
refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain
documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to
him), engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi
apologia, and generally conducted himself with such complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond. For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to
URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
Mark
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts."
-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Van Alstine
In article <4pklrb$t...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com (Matt
Giwer) wrote:
> Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad, describing gassing in
> Krema I in Auschwitz
> [Quoted in "KL Auschwitz as Seen by the SS", p. 176]
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> ... The "disinfectors" were at work. One of them was
> SS-Unterscharfuehrer
> Teuer, decorated with the Cross of War Merit. With a chisel and a
> hammer they opened a few innocuously looking tins which bore the
> inscription "Cyclon, to be used against vermin. Attention, poison!
> to be opened by trained personnel only!". The tins were filled to
> the brim with blue granules the size of peas. Immediately after
> opening the tins, their contents was thrown into the holes which
> were then quickly covered. Meanwhile Grabner gave a sign to the driver
> of a lorry, which had stopped close to the crematorium. The driver
> started the motor and its deafening noise was louder than the
> death cries of the hundreds of people inside, being gassed to death.
>
>
> Of course everyone agrees, even our chemists, that there is no chemical
> reaction and that they would be grey not blue. But then this man saw
> blue. How can we explain an eyewitness seeing something he could not
> see?
On the contrary, the pellets of Zyklon B who's carrier was made of Erco
(porous silica) and saturated with HCN was indeed blue.
I think our chemists would agree that Giwer, as usual, if speaking from a
position of abject ignorance. But, or course, this have never stopped
Giwer from uttering his specious and uniformed drivel, which reminds me:
Jamie McCarthy
r...@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
> As Mr. Giwer knows Mr. Mazal has documented that one of the forms of
> Zyklon-B was silica gel impregnated with HCN. Has Mr. Giwer never seen
> blue silica gel?
Mr. Giwer replied:
> And everyone also knows that is pure bullshit and that the Zyklon B was
> HCN in a diatomite carrier. It is all right there on Nizkor.
mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> ...the carrier for Zyklon B was diatomite. Does Giwer know what diatomite
> is? Obviously not!
>
> diatomite - A hydrated silica, the remains of diatoms. The particles are
> hollow and the material is used as a filler and an absorbent... (_The
> Penguin Dictionary of Chemistry_, p.131.)
>
> Hmmm, "hydrated silicia." Sure sounds a lot like "silica gel" to me!
Actually, diatomite is the remains of diatoms -- essentially earth
that has a very large surface area because it is chiefly composed of
very many fossilized tiny creatures. Those fossils are probably
composed mostly of silicon compounds, but it's different than silica
gel.
Mr. Giwer is in error, true, but not for the reason you state (and I
would hesitate to call this error a lie, since it could be the result
of his typical failure to do even an ounce of research).
Zyklon came in several forms. I would think this fact was known to
everyone, even Mr. Giwer. Diatomaceous earth was one of the carrier
substances that was used. Silica gel was another. The former was
probably brownish gray in color. The latter was translucent, and,
as observation of pea-sized silica gel pieces will affirm, somewhat
bluish in color.
For someone to cite one document describing the diatomite carrier,
and another document describing the bluish color (obviously referring
to the silica gel carrier), and then to claim they contradict each
other, that someone must be either very confused or attempting to
mislead the reader. I make no claim as to which is the case in this
particular instance.
Posted/emailed; followups to alt.revisionism.
--
Jamie McCarthy http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
ja...@voyager.net Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-"revisionism" email
to be in the public domain. I speak only for myself.
Matt Giwer
r...@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>In article <4plqsr$s...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer <mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>> Of course everyone agrees, even our chemists, that there is no chemical
>>>>reaction and that they would be grey not blue. But then this man saw
>>>>blue. How can we explain an eyewitness seeing something he could not
>>>>see?
>>
>>>As Mr. Giwer knows Mr. Mazal has documented that one of the forms of
>>>Zyklon-B was silica gel impregnated with HCN. Has Mr. Giwer never seen
>>>blue silica gel?
>>
>> And everyone also knows that is pure bullshit and that the Zyklon B was
>>HCN in a diatomite carrier. It is all right there on Nizkor. (Use the
>>powerful search engine to find it for yourself. I have posted it here
>>once.)
>Is it Mr. Giwer's assertion that there is only one form of Zyklon B?
>Yes or no?
I am asserting there is only one form described in the holocaust
stories. If there is another form, Nizkor has it well hidden.
If you know of another form used, please post the evidence. Don't
forget the pea sized silica gel.
Matt Giwer
mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>BEGIN -- Cut Here -- cut here
>begin 644 Zyklon B.jpg
Next time ...
1) Use an underscore instead of a space.
2) Post a color picture.
Bruce Hamilton
[ Various attributions to posters deleted, all of whom should know better
than to post this flamefest to sci.chem ]
....
>What everyone, I believe, knows by now is that Giwer is ignorant and full
>of bullshit! This can readily be seen by his above claim that the carrier
>for Zyklon B could not be silica gel because it was diatomite. Indeed the
>the carrier for Zyklon B was diatomite. Does Giwer know what diatomite is?
>Obviously not!
>diatomite - A hydrated silica, the remains of diatoms. The particles are
>hollow and the material is used as a filler and an absorbent... (_The
>Penguin Dictionary of Chemistry_, p.131.)
>Hmmm, "hydrated silicia." Sure sounds a lot like "silica gel" to me!
Diatomites and silica gel *are* considered totally different.
Diatomaceous earth ( aka diatomite or kieselguhr ) is a soft bulky material
combosed of the skeletons of small prehistoric aquatic plants related to
algae ( diatoms ). Bulk density = 0.15-0.45, with true Sp.G of 1.9-2.35.
Absorbs 1.5 to 4 times its weight of water, and also has a high oil absorption
capacity. Usually cream to white colour.
Silica gel is an amorphous silica produced from sodium silicate and
sulfuric acid. Bulk density = ~0.70. Absorbs about 0.3 times its weight of
water, and has poor oil absorption capacity. Usually white or translucent.
The blue colour of self-indicating silica gel crystals for the removal of
water is caused by the presence of a cobalt compound that changes to
pink when hydrated. Common industrial silica gels are not self-indicating.
No chemist would confuse kieselgel with kieselguhr. I'm sure your
debate is very impt. to you, but posting gifs to a sci.* discussion group
is still not justified. Perhaps you could stay in alt.revisionism...
Please...
Bruce Hamilton
Matt Giwer
mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <4pklrb$t...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com (Matt
>Giwer) wrote:
>> Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad, describing gassing in
>> Krema I in Auschwitz
>> [Quoted in "KL Auschwitz as Seen by the SS", p. 176]
>> -------------------------------------------------------------
>> ... The "disinfectors" were at work. One of them was
>> SS-Unterscharfuehrer
>> Teuer, decorated with the Cross of War Merit. With a chisel and a
>> hammer they opened a few innocuously looking tins which bore the
>> inscription "Cyclon, to be used against vermin. Attention, poison!
>> to be opened by trained personnel only!". The tins were filled to
>> the brim with blue granules the size of peas. Immediately after
>> opening the tins, their contents was thrown into the holes which
>> were then quickly covered. Meanwhile Grabner gave a sign to the driver
>> of a lorry, which had stopped close to the crematorium. The driver
>> started the motor and its deafening noise was louder than the
>> death cries of the hundreds of people inside, being gassed to death.
>>
>>
>> Of course everyone agrees, even our chemists, that there is no chemical
>> reaction and that they would be grey not blue. But then this man saw
>> blue. How can we explain an eyewitness seeing something he could not
>> see?
>On the contrary, the pellets of Zyklon B who's carrier was made of Erco
>(porous silica) and saturated with HCN was indeed blue.
Contrary to everything known about it, you folks still go back to one
line in one patent that you folks continue to refuse to make available
in it entirety, IF any of you have it at all. We are still dealing with
a fanciful assertion by one of you folks and nothing more. Never even a
patent number posted. Never even the entire list of claims.
All that we get are clearly false statements about patents and what they
are about.
It appears you are making this stuff up as you go along. So why should
anyone consider your deliberate fabrications as having any merit?
Or, post the entire patent, in english. Or post a URL to it in english.
Or do anything else that will lend a semblence of verisimilitude to an
otherwise clear fabrication.
But you folks never will. You have no such information.
Matt Giwer
B.Ham...@irl.cri.nz (Bruce Hamilton) wrote:
>[ Various attributions to posters deleted, all of whom should know better
> than to post this flamefest to sci.chem ]
>....
>>What everyone, I believe, knows by now is that Giwer is ignorant and full
>>of bullshit! This can readily be seen by his above claim that the carrier
>>for Zyklon B could not be silica gel because it was diatomite. Indeed the
>>the carrier for Zyklon B was diatomite. Does Giwer know what diatomite is?
>>Obviously not!
>>diatomite - A hydrated silica, the remains of diatoms. The particles are
>>hollow and the material is used as a filler and an absorbent... (_The
>>Penguin Dictionary of Chemistry_, p.131.)
>>Hmmm, "hydrated silicia." Sure sounds a lot like "silica gel" to me!
>Diatomites and silica gel *are* considered totally different.
>Diatomaceous earth ( aka diatomite or kieselguhr ) is a soft bulky material
>combosed of the skeletons of small prehistoric aquatic plants related to
>algae ( diatoms ). Bulk density = 0.15-0.45, with true Sp.G of 1.9-2.35.
>Absorbs 1.5 to 4 times its weight of water, and also has a high oil absorption
>capacity. Usually cream to white colour.
>Silica gel is an amorphous silica produced from sodium silicate and
>sulfuric acid. Bulk density = ~0.70. Absorbs about 0.3 times its weight of
>water, and has poor oil absorption capacity. Usually white or translucent.
>The blue colour of self-indicating silica gel crystals for the removal of
>water is caused by the presence of a cobalt compound that changes to
>pink when hydrated. Common industrial silica gels are not self-indicating.
>
>No chemist would confuse kieselgel with kieselguhr. I'm sure your
>debate is very impt. to you, but posting gifs to a sci.* discussion group
>is still not justified. Perhaps you could stay in alt.revisionism...
>Please...
> Bruce Hamilton
Nothing personal here but you are making the mistake fo assuming the
holohuggers care in the least about facts. They are working so very
hard to preserve fabricated testimony. That is all they have to hang
their hat on.
But thank you for your time in this matter. Given the experiencd in
alt.revisionism it it good to see there are still some honest chemist in
the world as opposed to what UC and Israel is turning out.
Mark Van Alstine
In article <B.Hamilton....@irl.cri.nz>, B.Ham...@irl.cri.nz
(Bruce Hamilton) wrote:
> [ Various attributions to posters deleted, all of whom should know better
> than to post this flamefest to sci.chem ]
Indeed. My apologies for crossposting it by accident.
[snip]
> Diatomites and silica gel *are* considered totally different.
I stand corrected.
> Diatomaceous earth ( aka diatomite or kieselguhr ) is a soft bulky material
> combosed of the skeletons of small prehistoric aquatic plants related to
> algae ( diatoms ). Bulk density = 0.15-0.45, with true Sp.G of 1.9-2.35.
> Absorbs 1.5 to 4 times its weight of water, and also has a high oil
absorption
> capacity. Usually cream to white colour.
>
> Silica gel is an amorphous silica produced from sodium silicate and
> sulfuric acid. Bulk density = ~0.70. Absorbs about 0.3 times its weight of
> water, and has poor oil absorption capacity. Usually white or translucent.
> The blue colour of self-indicating silica gel crystals for the removal of
> water is caused by the presence of a cobalt compound that changes to
> pink when hydrated. Common industrial silica gels are not self-indicating.
>
> No chemist would confuse kieselgel with kieselguhr.
Undoubtably true. I've never _claimed_ to be a chemist.... But thanks for
the info! };->
> I'm sure your debate is very impt. to you, but posting gifs to a sci.*
discussion group is still not justified. Perhaps you could stay in
alt.revisionism... Please...
My mistake. I wasn't paying attention that this thread, which really is
only relevent to a.r., was being crossposted. I can understand 100% why
people in sci.chem might not appreciate it.... My apologies.
Mark
crosspost to sci.chem snipped
posted/e-mailed
Miloslav Bilik
mgi...@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad, describing gassing in
>Krema I in Auschwitz
>[Quoted in "KL Auschwitz as Seen by the SS", p. 176]
>-------------------------------------------------------------
> ... The "disinfectors" were at work. One of them was
>SS-Unterscharfuehrer
>Teuer, decorated with the Cross of War Merit. With a chisel and a
>hammer they opened a few innocuously looking tins which bore the
>inscription "Cyclon, to be used against vermin. Attention, poison!
>to be opened by trained personnel only!". The tins were filled to
>the brim with blue granules the size of peas. Immediately after
>opening the tins, their contents was thrown into the holes which
>were then quickly covered. Meanwhile Grabner gave a sign to the driver
>of a lorry, which had stopped close to the crematorium. The driver
>started the motor and its deafening noise was louder than the
>death cries of the hundreds of people inside, being gassed to death.
> Of course everyone agrees, even our chemists, that there is no chemical
>reaction and that they would be grey not blue. But then this man saw
>blue. How can we explain an eyewitness seeing something he could not
>see?
We could think that you read this newsgroup since one month, as if you
never saw some posts about the appearance of the Zyklon-B. As you post
here for a long time, it proves a serious memory impairment.
Silica gel, crystal, aso.. You were answered that silica gel, the
common carrier of Zyklon-B, was bluish. Then you played games with
some witnesses calling this gel 'crystal', but yourself called the
diatomite 'kaolinite', an equally incorrect appellation. It remains
that silica gel is bluish. I can post here some photos of genuine
silica gel if you want.
You certainly never saw Zyklon carried by diatomaceous earth, but
decided that only chemical reactions could explain a blue color.
Sky is blue and air isn't. Do you want to prove us that the sky is
white ?
Richard J. Green
[followups trimmed to alt.revisionism only]
In article <4pnnop$2...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer <mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>r...@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>
>>In article <4plqsr$s...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer <mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> Of course everyone agrees, even our chemists, that there is no chemical
>>>>>reaction and that they would be grey not blue. But then this man saw
>>>>>blue. How can we explain an eyewitness seeing something he could not
>>>>>see?
>>>
>>>>As Mr. Giwer knows Mr. Mazal has documented that one of the forms of
>>>>Zyklon-B was silica gel impregnated with HCN. Has Mr. Giwer never seen
>>>>blue silica gel?
>>>
>>> And everyone also knows that is pure bullshit and that the Zyklon B was
>>>HCN in a diatomite carrier. It is all right there on Nizkor. (Use the
>>>powerful search engine to find it for yourself. I have posted it here
>>>once.)
>
>>Is it Mr. Giwer's assertion that there is only one form of Zyklon B?
>>Yes or no?
>
> I am asserting there is only one form described in the holocaust
>stories. If there is another form, Nizkor has it well hidden.
>
> If you know of another form used, please post the evidence. Don't
>forget the pea sized silica gel.
Pressac states in the text accompanying Photo 20, p. 21
"500 grams can of Zyklon-B without its label, containing small
bluish pellets of porous silica, known as ERCO, which absorbed
the hydrocyanic acid together with 5% of a lachrymogenic and
sternutatory warning agent. These are the *crystals* of Zyklon-B.
Other fixing agents were also used, either a reddish-brown granular
mass (Diagriess), or disks of ligneous fiber. (Photo 8 which
Eichmann knew, probably because he had seen them used in the
disinfestations of the Auschwitz main camp blocks before or at
the time of his deciding with Hoess on their homicidal use."
Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
As for size, Mr. Mazal has helped us out a bit:
<quote>
Silica gel can be purchased in a huge variety of mesh sizes. In
my (now quite remote) days designing gas chromatographs, we
used silica gel in a 100 mesh size as a column packing for the
separation of organic and inorganic gases. 100 mesh is a very
fine powder.
Silica gel is also used as a dessicant and is commercially available
in mesh sizes from 4 mesh to 28 mesh. What do "mesh sizes" mean?
The U.S. Bureau of Standards defines the following:
Size 4 = 4.75mm
Size 6 = 3.35mm
Size 8 = 2.36mm
Size 10 = 2.00mm
Size 12 = 1.70mm
etc.
One can also purchase bulk silica gel in lumps the size of an orange.
Giwer can determine this for himself. If he is the "great scientist"
that he claims to be, he will have access to one of the standard
laboratory supply catalogues. I have, for this particular exercise,
used the: _
THOMAS SCIENTIFIC: Scientific Apparatus and Reagents_
(609) 467-2000
The references to silica gel are on pages 561, 1881 and 1882.
A curious addition to the silica gel story is that it is also available
as an "indicating type, changing color from deep blue to pink as
relative humidity increases from 20% to 60%.
<end quote>
Regards,
Rich Green
Mark Van Alstine
In article <4po2f6$r...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com
(Matt Giwer) wrote:
> mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>
> >BEGIN -- Cut Here -- cut here
> >begin 644 Zyklon B.jpg
>
> Next time ...
>
> 1) Use an underscore instead of a space.
Why? My Mac handles spaces in file names just fine....
> 2) Post a color picture.
The photo was b/w.
Mark
Mark Van Alstine
> mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>
> >BEGIN -- Cut Here -- cut here
> >begin 644 Zyklon B.jpg
>
> Next time ...
>
> 1) Use an underscore instead of a space.
Why? My Mac handles spaces in file names just fine....
> 2) Post a color picture.
The photo was b/w.
Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semitic troller whose only
interest is in slandering Jews and causing fights. While he can sometimes
sound superficially plausible, he has profusely and consistantly lied
about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying),
refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain
documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to
him), engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi
apologia, and generally conducted himself with such complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond. For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to
URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
[crossposts snipped]
Matt Giwer
r...@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
Too bad your pharmacist never read the Degesh publication. Too bad this
supposed pharmacist never took enough chemistry courses to learn
something covered in high school chemistry. It appears he is at best an
old time apothecary dealing in healing herbs rather than what we would
call a pharmacist in the US.
Think of if. A pharmacist who never took a chemistry course. It almost
makes one question his claim to being a pharmacist.
In fact, no almost about it. If it is a pharmacist he would not have
made that mistake.
>As for size, Mr. Mazal has helped us out a bit:
><quote>
>Silica gel can be purchased in a huge variety of mesh sizes. In
>my (now quite remote) days designing gas chromatographs, we
>used silica gel in a 100 mesh size as a column packing for the
>separation of organic and inorganic gases. 100 mesh is a very
>fine powder.
>
>Silica gel is also used as a dessicant and is commercially available
>in mesh sizes from 4 mesh to 28 mesh. What do "mesh sizes" mean?
>The U.S. Bureau of Standards defines the following:
>Size 4 = 4.75mm
>Size 6 = 3.35mm
>Size 8 = 2.36mm
>Size 10 = 2.00mm
>Size 12 = 1.70mm
>etc.
It is unclear what any US standard has to do with the subject but it
would appear by this scale the size would be about 000000 to get up to
pea sized.
>One can also purchase bulk silica gel in lumps the size of an orange.
>Giwer can determine this for himself. If he is the "great scientist"
>that he claims to be, he will have access to one of the standard
>laboratory supply catalogues. I have, for this particular exercise,
>used the: _
>THOMAS SCIENTIFIC: Scientific Apparatus and Reagents_
>(609) 467-2000
>The references to silica gel are on pages 561, 1881 and 1882.
But we also know that the coloration comes from the addition of cobalt
chloride to indicate it is dry. As it was being soaked in HCN it would
never be water wet and there would be no reason to add the dessication
indicator and therefore it would not appear blue. But you know that.
>A curious addition to the silica gel story is that it is also available
>as an "indicating type, changing color from deep blue to pink as
>relative humidity increases from 20% to 60%.
As I said, you know the indicator is added when it is used as a
dessicant.
><end quote>
Thank you for posting the expert opinion of a pharmacist who managed to
prove that crematoria were constructed.
However, by now you should have read what I have posted from the long
secret Degesh publication. And when you read it you will know why the
people claiming to have it would not post it. It clearly states that
the carrier is either wood pulp or diatomite. No silica gel at all.
There is other information in it. Most of which points to the reason it
has never be posted, for example the ten hours to air out after it is
used.
Matt Giwer
10064...@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>mgi...@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad, describing gassing in
>>Krema I in Auschwitz
>>[Quoted in "KL Auschwitz as Seen by the SS", p. 176]
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>> ... The "disinfectors" were at work. One of them was
>>SS-Unterscharfuehrer
>>Teuer, decorated with the Cross of War Merit. With a chisel and a
>>hammer they opened a few innocuously looking tins which bore the
>>inscription "Cyclon, to be used against vermin. Attention, poison!
>>to be opened by trained personnel only!". The tins were filled to
>>the brim with blue granules the size of peas. Immediately after
>>opening the tins, their contents was thrown into the holes which
>>were then quickly covered. Meanwhile Grabner gave a sign to the driver
>>of a lorry, which had stopped close to the crematorium. The driver
>>started the motor and its deafening noise was louder than the
>>death cries of the hundreds of people inside, being gassed to death.
>> Of course everyone agrees, even our chemists, that there is no chemical
>>reaction and that they would be grey not blue. But then this man saw
>>blue. How can we explain an eyewitness seeing something he could not
>>see?
>We could think that you read this newsgroup since one month, as if you
>never saw some posts about the appearance of the Zyklon-B. As you post
>here for a long time, it proves a serious memory impairment.
>Silica gel, crystal, aso.. You were answered that silica gel, the
>common carrier of Zyklon-B, was bluish. Then you played games with
>some witnesses calling this gel 'crystal', but yourself called the
>diatomite 'kaolinite', an equally incorrect appellation. It remains
>that silica gel is bluish. I can post here some photos of genuine
>silica gel if you want.
But as you know by now from the Degesh pub that silica gel was not used
as the carrier, rather either wood pulp.
You also know that the blue color comes from the addition of cobalt
chloride as a dryness indicator when it is used as a desicant and has no
other value.
>You certainly never saw Zyklon carried by diatomaceous earth, but
>decided that only chemical reactions could explain a blue color.
>Sky is blue and air isn't. Do you want to prove us that the sky is
>white ?
It will take much more time than I care to spend to explain Rayleigh
scattering to you even if you had the background to understand it.
But in case you missed the Degesh pub...
Source: Zyklon for Pest Control, Degesch Publication
History
As long as 80 years ago it was recognized that hydrocyanic acid could be
useful in pest control
but it took half this time to popularize the method.
Deficiencies and disadvantages had first of all to be eliminated from
the method of application.
First this had been done in such a way that hydrocyanic acid was no more
developed on the spot
by mixing cyanides and acid, but this process already took place in the
factory: The so-called "pot
method" was replaced by liquid hydrocyanic acid. The few deficiencies of
this procedure were
removed in the early twenties by the ZYKLON method: One added liquid HCN
to a "carrier
substance", thus simplifying handling whilst all favourable properties
of liquid HCN were
maintained. At the same time, danger to the operator was reduced to a
minimum. Hydrocyanic
acid in the form of ZYKLON can be safely stored for considerable periods
and under all climatic
conditions, any quantity of gas can be easily measured, quickly and
cleanly released. Any
residures are completely harmless.
Composition
In ZYKLON pure (98%-99%) liquid hydrocyanic acid is chemically
stabilized and absorbed in a
porous, inert material. It is supplied in snippets or discs prepared
from wood pulp. Snippets
generally are preferred as in view of their larger surface they give off
the gas more rapidly. Upon
request also discs can be supplied. The aborbent material can easily be
collected at the end of
the fumigation.
Packing
ZYKLON is packed in handy, gas-tight tins of various sizes which are
packed in strong wooden
cases. One case, measuring 72 x 50 x 36 cm contains:
Imperial - units 16 tins, each containing 40 ozs. HCN - total 40 lbs HCN
or 30 tins, each
containing 16 ozs. HCN - total 30 lbs HCN.
Toxicity
No thoroughly effective pesticide is known to exist which could be
considered to be harmless to
human beings or mammals. Fatal concentrations of HCN impede or
completely cut off the oxygen
supply to the cells. The poison can enter the body in three ways:
through the mouth, the respiratory
organs, or the pores of the skin. The latter will occur in particular if
the body is exposed to high
concentration for any length of time and in unfavourable conditions
(great heat).
Methods
Prior to fumigation, the tins must be distributed about the building.
The tins are opened, and the
ZYKLON is scattered so as to reach even the remotest parts of the
building. If this is done
correctly the gas will develop evenly and instantaneously throughout the
premises. Spaces difficult
to reach may be charged separately. In multi-storied buildings one
begins with the top floor, and
then works towards the exit, taking care that nobody re-enters rooms
already charged. Even
under mask protection it is not advisable to expose oneself to the gas
more than is absolutely
necessary. The exit door is sealed after everybody has left the
building; warning notices must be
put up before gassing commences and a guard placed near the building to
prevent unauthorised
persons from entering. Time of exposure depends on the type of pests to
be attacked; for the
destruction of the various types of moths and their pre-adult stages 24
hours will suffice, against
other kinds of insect pests one should fumigate for 48 hours. If there
are any dense stowages or
bulkss of commodities to penetrate, the time of exposure may need to be
extended to 72 hours.
Ventilation
During this operation gas-masks must be worn. The ventilation takes
place in the reverse
direction to the gassing. All windows near the entrance are opened
first, then gradually those in
the rest of the building. It is advisable to work only for 10 to 15
minutes at a time and then to make
interruptions of half an hour, as a precaution against skin poisoning.
Depending on concentration, outdoor tempature and weather conditions,
ventilation will take at
least 10 hours. Clearing of tins and residues may be commenced before
the end of airing.
Windows and doors must remain open, and gas-masks kept available. ZYKLON
tins and
absorbent material must always be collected and cleared away before the
resumption of work.
Source: Zyklon for Pest Control, Degesch Publication
Matt Giwer
mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <B.Hamilton....@irl.cri.nz>, B.Ham...@irl.cri.nz
>(Bruce Hamilton) wrote:
>> [ Various attributions to posters deleted, all of whom should know better
>> than to post this flamefest to sci.chem ]
>Indeed. My apologies for crossposting it by accident.
>[snip]
>> Diatomites and silica gel *are* considered totally different.
>I stand corrected.
>> Diatomaceous earth ( aka diatomite or kieselguhr ) is a soft bulky material
>> combosed of the skeletons of small prehistoric aquatic plants related to
>> algae ( diatoms ). Bulk density = 0.15-0.45, with true Sp.G of 1.9-2.35.
>> Absorbs 1.5 to 4 times its weight of water, and also has a high oil
>absorption
>> capacity. Usually cream to white colour.
>>
>> Silica gel is an amorphous silica produced from sodium silicate and
>> sulfuric acid. Bulk density = ~0.70. Absorbs about 0.3 times its weight of
>> water, and has poor oil absorption capacity. Usually white or translucent.
>> The blue colour of self-indicating silica gel crystals for the removal of
>> water is caused by the presence of a cobalt compound that changes to
>> pink when hydrated. Common industrial silica gels are not self-indicating.
>>
>> No chemist would confuse kieselgel with kieselguhr.
>Undoubtably true. I've never _claimed_ to be a chemist.... But thanks for
>the info! };->
So read it and weep. It is not blue on its own and only added if used
as a desicant. Therefore all of these claims of blue pellets in all the
"eyewitness stories are pure fabrication based upon a common
misconception. And at best they would only look blue when the HCN was
gone, not when fresh.
So we are left with fabricated stories from eyewitnesses as always.
Triple Quadrophenic
In article <mvanalst-130...@rbi142.rbi.com>, mvan...@rbi.com
(Mark Van Alstine) says...
>>
>> 1) Use an underscore instead of a space.
>
>Why? My Mac handles spaces in file names just fine....
>
>> 2) Post a color picture.
DON'T post binaries to non-binary groups. Blimey, you'd think
a postmaster would know that!
>
>The photo was b/w.
>
>
>Mark
>
I see that these geniuses still haven't figured out how to remove
sci.chem from the newsgroups list
--
-- BEGIN NVGP SIGNATURE Version 0.000001
Frank J Hollis, Mass Spectroscopy, SmithKline Beecham, Welwyn, UK
Frank_H...@sbphrd.com or fj...@tutor.open.ac.uk
All Opinions My Own (So My Employer Tells Me)
Daniel Keren
Sigh. Is Giwer, the 163 IQ man, now claiming that silica gel
cannot be the size of peas?
Matt Giwer
mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <4po2f6$r...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>> >BEGIN -- Cut Here -- cut here
>> >begin 644 Zyklon B.jpg
>>
>> Next time ...
>>
>> 1) Use an underscore instead of a space.
>Why? My Mac handles spaces in file names just fine....
Anyone believing the Mac has anything to do with the market, including
all UNIX variations is an idiot.
Beyond that, as spaces have been the fundamental parsing rule since
computers were programmed with patch panels (early 1950s) it is quite
difficult to believe you are telling the truth. Are you really claiming
the Mac OS knows when and when not to ignore spaces?
>> 2) Post a color picture.
>The photo was b/w.
That does not prove blue any more than the fanciful picture of Jewish
women beind shot proved they were either women or Jewish.
Richard J. Green
In article <4pqml4$g...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Atleast Mr. Giwer now admits that "Holocaust stories" do indeed refer to
multiple supports used in Zyklon. In other words, he knows that his
claim above is incorrect.
>
> Think of if. A pharmacist who never took a chemistry course. It almost
>makes one question his claim to being a pharmacist.
I would be very interested in Mr. Giwer's evidence that Pressac never
took a chemistry course.
> In fact, no almost about it. If it is a pharmacist he would not have
>made that mistake.
It is not clear that Pressac's use of the term crystal was meant as
anything other than the vernacular use of the term. It is not clear that
that Pressac does not know what a crystal is. Mr. Giwer is using this
issue to obfuscate the fact that Pressac clearly states that ERCO was
used as a support.
>
>>As for size, Mr. Mazal has helped us out a bit:
>
>><quote>
>>Silica gel can be purchased in a huge variety of mesh sizes. In
>>my (now quite remote) days designing gas chromatographs, we
>>used silica gel in a 100 mesh size as a column packing for the
>>separation of organic and inorganic gases. 100 mesh is a very
>>fine powder.
>>
>>Silica gel is also used as a dessicant and is commercially available
>>in mesh sizes from 4 mesh to 28 mesh. What do "mesh sizes" mean?
>
>>The U.S. Bureau of Standards defines the following:
>
>>Size 4 = 4.75mm
>>Size 6 = 3.35mm
>>Size 8 = 2.36mm
>>Size 10 = 2.00mm
>>Size 12 = 1.70mm
>
>>etc.
>
> It is unclear what any US standard has to do with the subject but it
>would appear by this scale the size would be about 000000 to get up to
>pea sized.
Mr. Giwer should lerarn the metric system. 4.75 mm is about 1/2 cm,
about the size of a pea.
>
>>One can also purchase bulk silica gel in lumps the size of an orange.
>
>>Giwer can determine this for himself. If he is the "great scientist"
>>that he claims to be, he will have access to one of the standard
>>laboratory supply catalogues. I have, for this particular exercise,
>>used the: _
>
>>THOMAS SCIENTIFIC: Scientific Apparatus and Reagents_
>>(609) 467-2000
>
>>The references to silica gel are on pages 561, 1881 and 1882.
>
> But we also know that the coloration comes from the addition of cobalt
>chloride to indicate it is dry. As it was being soaked in HCN it would
>never be water wet and there would be no reason to add the dessication
>indicator and therefore it would not appear blue. But you know that.
No, I don't know that. Please demonstrate:
1) silica gel without Cobalt Chloride is not blue.
2) That there is no reason to be concerned about zyklon-B getting wet.
Atleast, Mr. Giwer now admits that silica gel was used.
>
> However, by now you should have read what I have posted from the long
>secret Degesh publication. And when you read it you will know why the
>people claiming to have it would not post it. It clearly states that
I haven't seen Mr. Giwer's post. He has recently spammed the group
with large quantities of nonsense. I don't read all his drivel.
Perhaps, he can state which thread it's posted under. Which of the
zyklon patents did he post.
>the carrier is either wood pulp or diatomite. No silica gel at all.
--
Matt Giwer
mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
A silicon based life form. How intriguing. It is also kitty litter.
And its color is grey. Get over it.
>Note: the term "gel" in this context does not necessarily imply elasticity
>(like "Jell-O"). In the case of silica gel, which is an inorganic gel, it
>is rigid (and irreversable) gel.
Something else our two resident and oh so ethical chemists will NEVER
correct you for saying. They will let it stand for a while and then
claim I said it and call it absurd.
>> But then, let me ask you a question. Have you ever seen pea size silica
>> gel?
>Certainly. Giwer too can also see them by turning to page 15 of Pressac's
>_Technique_. However, considering Giwer's seeming fear of books, I have
>attached an image file of the photo of the Zyklon B pellets from page 15
>of _Technique_.
>BTW, note the caption that says "...small blue pellets...."
> ^^^^
You have just calibrated the work of Pressac.
Matt Giwer
ja...@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>r...@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>> As Mr. Giwer knows Mr. Mazal has documented that one of the forms of
>> Zyklon-B was silica gel impregnated with HCN. Has Mr. Giwer never seen
>> blue silica gel?
>Mr. Giwer replied:
>> And everyone also knows that is pure bullshit and that the Zyklon B was
>> HCN in a diatomite carrier. It is all right there on Nizkor.
>mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>> ...the carrier for Zyklon B was diatomite. Does Giwer know what diatomite
>> is? Obviously not!
>>
>> diatomite - A hydrated silica, the remains of diatoms. The particles are
>> hollow and the material is used as a filler and an absorbent... (_The
>> Penguin Dictionary of Chemistry_, p.131.)
>>
>> Hmmm, "hydrated silicia." Sure sounds a lot like "silica gel" to me!
>Actually, diatomite is the remains of diatoms -- essentially earth
>that has a very large surface area because it is chiefly composed of
>very many fossilized tiny creatures. Those fossils are probably
>composed mostly of silicon compounds, but it's different than silica
>gel.
>Mr. Giwer is in error, true, but not for the reason you state (and I
>would hesitate to call this error a lie, since it could be the result
>of his typical failure to do even an ounce of research).
>Zyklon came in several forms. I would think this fact was known to
>everyone, even Mr. Giwer. Diatomaceous earth was one of the carrier
>substances that was used. Silica gel was another. The former was
>probably brownish gray in color. The latter was translucent, and,
>as observation of pea-sized silica gel pieces will affirm, somewhat
>bluish in color.
Except that you know the only basis for the silica gel claim is from the
secret patent that the holohuggers will not post.
>For someone to cite one document describing the diatomite carrier,
>and another document describing the bluish color (obviously referring
>to the silica gel carrier), and then to claim they contradict each
>other, that someone must be either very confused or attempting to
>mislead the reader. I make no claim as to which is the case in this
>particular instance.
Save that is it well known that Zyklon B, the named lethal agent, was
the form with the diatomite carrier. Now if you folks want Zyklon or
Zyklon A or C or D or whatever please so state. But we know the carrier
for B. That does not change make it blue. Very grey. By some kitty
litter and see for yourself.
Matt Giwer
Keith Morrison <t0...@unb.ca> wrote:
>Richard J. Green wrote:
>>
>> Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
>> Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
>The geologists among us forgive you for the assumption that only
>chemists know crystals. ;>
Do you forgive for his assumption that a pharmacist never took high
school chemistry?
Keith Morrison
Richard J. Green wrote:
>
> Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
> Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
The geologists among us forgive you for the assumption that only
chemists know crystals. ;>
--
Keith Morrison
t0...@unb.ca
Mark Van Alstine
In article <4pqn96$g...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com
(Matt Giwer) wrote:
> 10064...@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>
[snip]
> >Silica gel, crystal, aso.. You were answered that silica gel, the
> >common carrier of Zyklon-B, was bluish. Then you played games with
> >some witnesses calling this gel 'crystal', but yourself called the
> >diatomite 'kaolinite', an equally incorrect appellation. It remains
> >that silica gel is bluish. I can post here some photos of genuine
> >silica gel if you want.
>
> But as you know by now from the Degesh pub that silica gel was not used
> as the carrier, rather either wood pulp.
DEGESCH evidently used several carriers for HCN in Zyklon B: Erco (silica
gel), diatomite (diatomaceous earth), and wood pulp. Zyklon B using a wood
pulp carrier was in the form of cardboard disks. Zyklon B using Erco as
the carrier was in the form of small blue pellets (often referred to as
crystals). Both types of Zyklon B carriers can be seen on page 17 of
Pressac's _Technique_.
> You also know that the blue color comes from the addition of cobalt
> chloride as a dryness indicator when it is used as a desicant and has no
> other value.
It is interesting to note that cyanides are slowly hydrolysed [to CO3(2)
and NH3]. Perhaps the addition of cobalt chloride, given that it is used
to indicate the presence of moisture, had a purpose after all? Perhaps as
a visual indicator regarding the reliability of the Zyklon B in some
fashion?
But, of course, this presumes that the blue coloration came from the
addition of cobalt chloride to the silica gel carrier. What actual
evidence does the Giwer-Troll have that indicates that cobalt chloride was
indeed added to the silica gel carrier of Zyklon B? Please be sure to
provide full citations to the source material.
[snip]
> But in case you missed the Degesh pub...
>
> Source: Zyklon for Pest Control, Degesch Publication
Full citation please. If this was taken off a website, then please provide
the URL. If this is a publication, please provide the ISBN, LC number,
archive reference, etc..
[snip]
> ...The few deficiencies of this procedure were removed in the early
> twenties by the ZYKLON method: One added liquid HCN to a "carrier
> substance", thus simplifying handling whilst all favourable properties
> of liquid HCN were maintained. At the same time, danger to the operator
> was reduced to a minimum....
So much for the claim that liquid HCN (i.e. stored in tanks) would be more
effient (or preferable) than Zyklon B....
[snip]
> ...Hydrocyanic acid in the form of ZYKLON can be safely stored for
> considerable periods and under all climatic conditions, any quantity
> of gas can be easily measured, quickly and cleanly released. Any
> residures are completely harmless....
So much for the claim that the spent Zyklon B posed a hazard....
> Composition
>
> In ZYKLON pure (98%-99%) liquid hydrocyanic acid is chemically
> stabilized and absorbed in a porous, inert material. It is supplied in
> snippets or discs prepared from wood pulp. Snippets generally are preferred
> as in view of their larger surface they give of the gas more rapidly. Upon
> request also discs can be supplied. The aborbent material can easily be
> collected at the end of the fumigation.
I would really like to see the origional source for this passage, as the
"Directives for the Use of Prussic Acid (Zyklon) for the Destruction of
Vermin (Disinfestation)" [NI-9912] states:
"ZYKLON is the absorption of a mixture of prussic acid and an irritant by
a carrier. Wood fibre discs, a reddish brown granular mass (diagriess -
Dia gravel) or small blue cubes (Erco) are used as carriers."
(_Technique_, p.18; and
http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/incon/zyklon.html)
This would imply that "snippets" are not pieces of wood pulp but some
other carrier like Erco or diatomite. The "wood pulp" carrier existsed
only if the form of fiber disks.
[snip]
>...The tins are opened, and the ZYKLON is scattered so as to reach even the
> remotest parts of the building. If this is done correctly the gas will
develop
> evenly and instantaneously throughout the premises....
So much the claim that it took a long time for the Zyklon emit a lethal
concentration of HCN gas because it developed slowly....
Aside from Giwer shooting several pet denier "theories" in the head, what
was Giwer-Troll's point? That Zyklon B pellets of Erco weren't blue? But
as it says right in the DEGESCH manual, they _were_ blue.
Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semitic troller whose only
interest is in slandering Jews and causing fights. While he can sometimes
sound superficially plausible, he has profusely and consistantly lied
about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying),
refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain
documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to
him), engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi
apologia, and generally conducted himself with such complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond. For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to
URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
Mark
Mark Van Alstine
In article <4pqp1p$i...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com (Matt
Giwer) wrote:
[snip]
> So read it and weep. It is not blue on its own and only added if used
> as a desicant. Therefore all of these claims of blue pellets in all the
> "eyewitness stories are pure fabrication based upon a common
> misconception. And at best they would only look blue when the HCN was
> gone, not when fresh.
"cobaltus chloride - CoCl2, CoCl2*6H20 A compound whose anyhydrous form
consists of blue crystals and sublimes when heated, and whose hydrated
form consists of red crystals and melts at 86.8C; both forms are used as
an absorbant for ammonia in dyes and as a catalyst. Also known as cobalt
chloride." (_McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Chemical Terms_, p.95.)
The Giwer-Troll's assumption is, of course, that cobalt chloride was added
to Zyklon B. Was it? What evidence indicates that is was? If it was, what
would its purpose be? A desicant? A catalyst? It is interesting to note
that cyanides are slowly hydrolysed to (CO3)2- and NH3. Would adding
cobalt chloride to Zyklon B retard hydrolysis and increase the shelf like
of Zyklon B?
Or is there another explination that would account for the blue color?
> So we are left with fabricated stories from eyewitnesses as always.
From _Directives for the Use of Prussic Acid (Zyklon) for the
Destruction of Vermin (Disinfestation) Translation of Document No. NI-9912
Office of Chief Counsel of War Crimes_, page 17 of Pressac's _Auschwitz:
Technique and operation of the gas chambers_:
[also at: http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/incon/zyklon.html]
"ZYKLON is the absorption of a mixture of prussic acid and an irritant by
a carrier. Wood fibre discs, a reddish brown granular mass (diagriess -
Dia gravel) or small blue cubes (Erco) are used as carriers."
Hmmm, "small blue cubes (Erco)."
^^^^
Seems like DEGESCH, the manufacturer of Zyklon B disagrees with the
Giwer-Troll. Hardly suprising as the Giwer-Troll is a disagreeable sort of
person, which reminds me:
Richard J. Green
In article <4pqp1p$i...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
>>(Bruce Hamilton) wrote:
>
>>> [ Various attributions to posters deleted, all of whom should know better
>>> than to post this flamefest to sci.chem ]
>
>>Indeed. My apologies for crossposting it by accident.
>
>>[snip]
>
>>> Diatomites and silica gel *are* considered totally different.
>
>>I stand corrected.
>
>>> Diatomaceous earth ( aka diatomite or kieselguhr ) is a soft bulky material
>>> combosed of the skeletons of small prehistoric aquatic plants related to
>>> algae ( diatoms ). Bulk density = 0.15-0.45, with true Sp.G of 1.9-2.35.
>>> Absorbs 1.5 to 4 times its weight of water, and also has a high oil
>>absorption
>>> capacity. Usually cream to white colour.
>>>
>>> Silica gel is an amorphous silica produced from sodium silicate and
>>> sulfuric acid. Bulk density = ~0.70. Absorbs about 0.3 times its weight of
>>> water, and has poor oil absorption capacity. Usually white or translucent.
>>> The blue colour of self-indicating silica gel crystals for the removal of
>>> water is caused by the presence of a cobalt compound that changes to
>>> pink when hydrated. Common industrial silica gels are not self-indicating.
>>>
>>> No chemist would confuse kieselgel with kieselguhr.
>
>>Undoubtably true. I've never _claimed_ to be a chemist.... But thanks for
>>the info! };->
>
>as a desicant. Therefore all of these claims of blue pellets in all the
>"eyewitness stories are pure fabrication based upon a common
>misconception. And at best they would only look blue when the HCN was
>gone, not when fresh.
>
Mr. Van Alstine's mistake about silica gel and diatomite proves nothing
except that even well-educated people can make honest mistakes. Mr.
Giwer should demonstrate that ERCO is not blue and cannot be pea-sized,
if that is his claim.
Regards,
Rich Green
Matt Giwer
mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <4pqn96$g...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> 10064...@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>>
>[snip]
>> >Silica gel, crystal, aso.. You were answered that silica gel, the
>> >common carrier of Zyklon-B, was bluish. Then you played games with
>> >some witnesses calling this gel 'crystal', but yourself called the
>> >diatomite 'kaolinite', an equally incorrect appellation. It remains
>> >that silica gel is bluish. I can post here some photos of genuine
>> >silica gel if you want.
>>
>> But as you know by now from the Degesh pub that silica gel was not used
>> as the carrier, rather either wood pulp.
>DEGESCH evidently used several carriers for HCN in Zyklon B: Erco (silica
>gel), diatomite (diatomaceous earth), and wood pulp. Zyklon B using a wood
>pulp carrier was in the form of cardboard disks. Zyklon B using Erco as
>the carrier was in the form of small blue pellets (often referred to as
>crystals). Both types of Zyklon B carriers can be seen on page 17 of
>Pressac's _Technique_.
Sorry but the much vaunted Degesh publication mentions ONLY wood pulp.
I can not change that. You can not change that.
Sorry but Pressac is a pharmacist who does not know the basics of
chemistry even at the high school level. That is why he calls them
crystals.
Sorry but the blue color comes from the addition of cobalt chloride and
is added when used as a dessicant.
Sorry but the picture posted in this conference of Zyklon B was
greyscale and does not support your contention.
Sorry but you can not salvage this one.
>> You also know that the blue color comes from the addition of cobalt
>> chloride as a dryness indicator when it is used as a desicant and has no
>> other value.
>It is interesting to note that cyanides are slowly hydrolysed [to CO3(2)
>and NH3]. Perhaps the addition of cobalt chloride, given that it is used
>to indicate the presence of moisture, had a purpose after all? Perhaps as
>a visual indicator regarding the reliability of the Zyklon B in some
>fashion?
They were in sealed containers. If water got in, the gas got out. The
better indicator would be the dead man who tried getting it from the
supply room.
>But, of course, this presumes that the blue coloration came from the
>addition of cobalt chloride to the silica gel carrier. What actual
>evidence does the Giwer-Troll have that indicates that cobalt chloride was
>indeed added to the silica gel carrier of Zyklon B? Please be sure to
>provide full citations to the source material.
Do you not remember the pissed off post from the sci.chem conference?
Are you not reading the mail?
I did not say that it was added for Zyklon B. I said silica gel was not
used at all according to the Degesh publication. Why can you not
recount what I said?
I have further pointed out that silica gel is NOT naturally blue but
only when an additive for use as a desicant.
>[snip]
>> But in case you missed the Degesh pub...
>>
>> Source: Zyklon for Pest Control, Degesch Publication
>Full citation please. If this was taken off a website, then please provide
>the URL. If this is a publication, please provide the ISBN, LC number,
>archive reference, etc..
There is a holohugger here who claims to have it. When HE posts it in
its entirety I will provide the link. The boy obviously does not want
it posted. Rather he wanted to play games with it. That same goes for
the claim of actually having the patent.
>[snip]
>> ...The few deficiencies of this procedure were removed in the early
>> twenties by the ZYKLON method: One added liquid HCN to a "carrier
>> substance", thus simplifying handling whilst all favourable properties
>> of liquid HCN were maintained. At the same time, danger to the operator
>> was reduced to a minimum....
>So much for the claim that liquid HCN (i.e. stored in tanks) would be more
>effient (or preferable) than Zyklon B....
Who claimed that? Please be specific in your response.
>[snip]
>> ...Hydrocyanic acid in the form of ZYKLON can be safely stored for
>> considerable periods and under all climatic conditions, any quantity
>> of gas can be easily measured, quickly and cleanly released. Any
>> residures are completely harmless....
>So much for the claim that the spent Zyklon B posed a hazard....
After 12 hours, as you read.
>> Composition
>>
>> In ZYKLON pure (98%-99%) liquid hydrocyanic acid is chemically
>> stabilized and absorbed in a porous, inert material. It is supplied in
>> snippets or discs prepared from wood pulp. Snippets generally are preferred
>> as in view of their larger surface they give of the gas more rapidly. Upon
>> request also discs can be supplied. The aborbent material can easily be
>> collected at the end of the fumigation.
>I would really like to see the origional source for this passage, as the
>"Directives for the Use of Prussic Acid (Zyklon) for the Destruction of
>Vermin (Disinfestation)" [NI-9912] states:
>"ZYKLON is the absorption of a mixture of prussic acid and an irritant by
>a carrier. Wood fibre discs, a reddish brown granular mass (diagriess -
>Dia gravel) or small blue cubes (Erco) are used as carriers."
>(_Technique_, p.18; and
>http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/incon/zyklon.html)
>This would imply that "snippets" are not pieces of wood pulp but some
>other carrier like Erco or diatomite. The "wood pulp" carrier existsed
>only if the form of fiber disks.
You will have to take up the discrepency with Degesh, not me.
>[snip]
>>...The tins are opened, and the ZYKLON is scattered so as to reach even the
>> remotest parts of the building. If this is done correctly the gas will
>develop
>> evenly and instantaneously throughout the premises....
>So much the claim that it took a long time for the Zyklon emit a lethal
>concentration of HCN gas because it developed slowly....
Perhaps but at least we have something more solid to go on than orthodox
nonsense.
>Aside from Giwer shooting several pet denier "theories" in the head, what
>was Giwer-Troll's point? That Zyklon B pellets of Erco weren't blue? But
>as it says right in the DEGESCH manual, they _were_ blue.
Where does it say that your source is Degesh?
>Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semitic troller whose only
Ah, yes. Your favorite true truths are shown to be nonsense and this is
the best you can do, copy your idol McVay.
Matt Giwer
r...@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>In article <4pqp1p$i...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer <mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
Sorry about that, Herr Green. I find it most sad when when holohuggers
are forced to face their worst nightmare. I really do find them
disgusting enough to pity them. Their sacred religion is crumbling
around them and there is no place to hide.
This nonsense is dead. Give it up.
Matt Giwer
mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <4pqp1p$i...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com (Matt
>Giwer) wrote:
>[snip]
>> So read it and weep. It is not blue on its own and only added if used
>> as a desicant. Therefore all of these claims of blue pellets in all the
>> "eyewitness stories are pure fabrication based upon a common
>> misconception. And at best they would only look blue when the HCN was
>> gone, not when fresh.
>"cobaltus chloride - CoCl2, CoCl2*6H20 A compound whose anyhydrous form
>consists of blue crystals and sublimes when heated, and whose hydrated
>form consists of red crystals and melts at 86.8C; both forms are used as
>an absorbant for ammonia in dyes and as a catalyst. Also known as cobalt
>chloride." (_McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Chemical Terms_, p.95.)
>The Giwer-Troll's assumption is, of course, that cobalt chloride was added
>to Zyklon B. Was it? What evidence indicates that is was? If it was, what
>would its purpose be? A desicant? A catalyst? It is interesting to note
>that cyanides are slowly hydrolysed to (CO3)2- and NH3. Would adding
>cobalt chloride to Zyklon B retard hydrolysis and increase the shelf like
>of Zyklon B?
>Or is there another explination that would account for the blue color?
As any honest chemist will state, the coloration is only due to the
additive. Now why not save the reputation of your employer and admit
you are a janitor?
Ken Lewis
In article <4ptv37$c...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com says...
> This nonsense is dead. Give it up.
Only in your feverish dreams.
Richard J. Green
In article <31C1DD...@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison <t0...@unb.ca> wrote:
>Richard J. Green wrote:
>
>>
>> Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
>> Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
>
>The geologists among us forgive you for the assumption that only
>chemists know crystals. ;>
>
Fair enough. From now on all geologists will be expected to know.
:-)
Mark Van Alstine
In article <4ptv82$c...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com (Matt
Giwer) wrote:
Ah, an ad hominem non-answer. This means that the Giwer-Troll hasn't the
slightest clue if cobalt chloride was actually added to Zyklon B for some
reasons or if the blue color of Erco was due to some other factor.
Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semitic troller whose only
Matt Giwer
r...@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>In article <31C1DD...@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison <t0...@unb.ca> wrote:
>>Richard J. Green wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
>>> Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
>>
>>The geologists among us forgive you for the assumption that only
>>chemists know crystals. ;>
>>
>Fair enough. From now on all geologists will be expected to know.
>:-)
Anyone who took high school chemistry knows it. Certainly a pharmacist
would know the difference. Unless this one never took a chemistry
course.
The evidence is mounting that Pressac is a fraud in this regard also.
Matt Giwer
kle...@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) wrote:
Sorry but it takes fevered dreams to keep something like this alive. It
is the same impulse that keeps Friday the 13th in sequals.
Matt Giwer
You continue to miss the point. We now have the until recently secret
Degesh Publication that those claiming (most likely falsely) to have it
were using to support this claim. It mentions only wood pulp in the
section describing what Zyklon B is. It makes no mention of silica gel.
It is only the still secret patent that supposedly mentions silica gel
but those claiming to have it refuse to post that also.
Try to understand this. The only claim of silica gel is from people who
claim to have a copy of the patent but refuse to post it. It does not
exist in the Degesh discussion of what is used.
Thus there is no evidence that the substance as used had anything to do
with silica gel.
Get over it. Better yet, get the full Degesh publication and of the
patent posted. Then (and only then) if the FULL publication mentions
silica gel do we have to consider any additives that might have added
some color to it. One would also expect the patent to mention the
indicator additive but at this point I will be surprised if it mentions
silica gel at all.
John Morris
On Fri, 14 Jun 1996 20:59:08 GMT, mgi...@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
wrote:
[snip]
> Save that is it well known that Zyklon B, the named lethal agent, was
>the form with the diatomite carrier. Now if you folks want Zyklon or
>Zyklon A or C or D or whatever please so state. But we know the carrier
>for B. That does not change make it blue. Very grey. By some kitty
>litter and see for yourself.
Oh, it diatomite now. I thought it was wood chips. Let me know when
you've made up your mind which true truth you believe in.
BTW, what do you suppose the "B" in "Zyklon-B" stood for? Think real
hard and take all the time you need.
Zyklon-A, indeed! It is to laugh.
--
John Morris <jmo...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
at University of Alberta <Scripture veteris capiunt exempla futuri>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
Mark Van Alstine
In article <4pv328$g...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com
(Matt Giwer) wrote:
The only mounting evidence here, rather, is that the Giwer-Troll, being
the despicable and malignant person he is, is desperate for attention
again. This is evidenced by his abandoning all pretense to rational
discourse and resorting to ad hominem attacks and malicious slander to
goad honest and forthright people into responsding to his lies and
innuendo.
Mike Curtis
mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <4pv328$g...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> r...@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <31C1DD...@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison <t0...@unb.ca> wrote:
>> >>Richard J. Green wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
>> >>> Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
>> >>
>> >>The geologists among us forgive you for the assumption that only
>> >>chemists know crystals. ;>
>> >>
>>
>> >Fair enough. From now on all geologists will be expected to know.
>> >:-)
>>
>> Anyone who took high school chemistry knows it. Certainly a
>pharmacist
>> would know the difference. Unless this one never took a chemistry
>> course.
>>
>> The evidence is mounting that Pressac is a fraud in this regard also.
>The only mounting evidence here, rather, is that the Giwer-Troll, being
>the despicable and malignant person he is, is desperate for attention
>again. This is evidenced by his abandoning all pretense to rational
>discourse and resorting to ad hominem attacks and malicious slander to
>goad honest and forthright people into responsding to his lies and
>innuendo.
Not this boy. I delete most all of his stuff. when I come to a post
that has ad hominems that is where the reading stops. When he is
involved in a thread with one other it gets deleted. This thread
usually holds no valuable information. I may respond now and again
when I feel he is at his most stupidest. And you are right as rain to
say:
mgi...@ix.netcom.com
mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <4pv328$g...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> r...@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <31C1DD...@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison <t0...@unb.ca> wrote:
>> >>Richard J. Green wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
>> >>> Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
>> >>
>> >>The geologists among us forgive you for the assumption that only
>> >>chemists know crystals. ;>
>> >>
>>
>> >Fair enough. From now on all geologists will be expected to know.
>> >:-)
>>
>> Anyone who took high school chemistry knows it. Certainly a
>pharmacist
>> would know the difference. Unless this one never took a chemistry
>> course.
>>
>> The evidence is mounting that Pressac is a fraud in this regard also.
>The only mounting evidence here, rather, is that the Giwer-Troll, being
>the despicable and malignant person he is, is desperate for attention
>again. This is evidenced by his abandoning all pretense to rational
>discourse and resorting to ad hominem attacks and malicious slander to
>goad honest and forthright people into responsding to his lies and
>innuendo.
Since when does a pharmacist have to be excused for not knowing what
anyone who takes even high school chemistry knows about crystals? That
would be impossible in this country. Perhaps does not have any
standards.
Richard J. Green
In article <4pv328$g...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer <mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>r...@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>
>>In article <31C1DD...@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison <t0...@unb.ca> wrote:
>>>Richard J. Green wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
>>>> Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
>>>
>>>The geologists among us forgive you for the assumption that only
>>>chemists know crystals. ;>
>>>
>
>>Fair enough. From now on all geologists will be expected to know.
>>:-)
>
> Anyone who took high school chemistry knows it. Certainly a pharmacist
>would know the difference. Unless this one never took a chemistry
>course.
>
> The evidence is mounting that Pressac is a fraud in this regard also.
Mr. Giwer's evidence that Pressac does not know is...
Richard J. Green
In article <4pvd77$n...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
<mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>
>>In article <4pv328$g...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com
>
>>> r...@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>>
>>> >In article <31C1DD...@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison <t0...@unb.ca> wrote:
>>> >>Richard J. Green wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
>>> >>> Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
>>> >>
>>> >>The geologists among us forgive you for the assumption that only
>>> >>chemists know crystals. ;>
>>> >>
>>>
>>> >Fair enough. From now on all geologists will be expected to know.
>>> >:-)
>>>
>>> Anyone who took high school chemistry knows it. Certainly a
>>pharmacist
>>> would know the difference. Unless this one never took a chemistry
>>> course.
>>>
>>> The evidence is mounting that Pressac is a fraud in this regard also.
>
>>the despicable and malignant person he is, is desperate for attention
>>again. This is evidenced by his abandoning all pretense to rational
>>discourse and resorting to ad hominem attacks and malicious slander to
>>goad honest and forthright people into responsding to his lies and
>>innuendo.
>
> Since when does a pharmacist have to be excused for not knowing what
>anyone who takes even high school chemistry knows about crystals? That
>would be impossible in this country. Perhaps does not have any
>standards.
Of course pharmacists study a great deal of chemistry. Of course
Pressac knows what crystals are. When Mr. Giwer presnets some evidence
that Pressac doesn't know what crystals are, we can discuss it.
BTW- Is this Giwer or Marduk. It's sometimes hard to tell Mr. Giwer
from a parody of Mr. Giwer.
Richard J. Green
In article <4q074k$l...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
<mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Excuse me but your favorite pharamacist was "excused" for not know what
>a crystal is. All you are saying is that he is as ignorant as I of
>chemisty. Even more so as I have consistantly pointed to the crystal
>nonsense.
No, that's not what I said.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green Dept. of Chemistry
r...@lyman.Stanford.EDU Stanford University
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud Stanford, CA 94305-5080
"Are you saying that I should have insulting the Jewish reputation for
integrity by saying only Jew and thus implying that we is observant?"
--Matt Giwer (Translation into English not yet available.)
Keith Morrison
Matt Giwer wrote:
>
> Keith Morrison <t0...@unb.ca> wrote:
>
> >Richard J. Green wrote:
>
> >>
> >> Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
> >> Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
>
> >The geologists among us forgive you for the assumption that only
> >chemists know crystals. ;>
>
> school chemistry?
Before you go of spouting about chemistry, perhaps you would
like to inform the audience what "oxidation state" refers to
when talking about atoms and such?
--
Keith Morrison
t0...@Unb.ca
mgi...@ix.netcom.com
Keith Morrison <t0...@unb.ca> wrote:
Excuse me but your favorite pharamacist was "excused" for not know what
a crystal is. All you are saying is that he is as ignorant as I of
chemisty. Even more so as I have consistantly pointed to the crystal
nonsense.
So obiously I know more than he does about chemistry as that is so
fundamental.
We are agreed that Pressac, like Leuchter, has misrepresented his
credentials and should be completely dismissed. That is good to read.
mgi...@ix.netcom.com
r...@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>In article <4pvd77$n...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
> <mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4pv328$g...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com
>>>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>>>> r...@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >In article <31C1DD...@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison <t0...@unb.ca> wrote:
>>>> >>Richard J. Green wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
>>>> >>> Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>The geologists among us forgive you for the assumption that only
>>>> >>chemists know crystals. ;>
>>>> >>
>>>>
>>>> >Fair enough. From now on all geologists will be expected to know.
>>>> >:-)
>>>>
>>>> Anyone who took high school chemistry knows it. Certainly a
>>>pharmacist
>>>> would know the difference. Unless this one never took a chemistry
>>>> course.
>>>>
>>>> The evidence is mounting that Pressac is a fraud in this regard also.
>>
>>>The only mounting evidence here, rather, is that the Giwer-Troll, being
>>>the despicable and malignant person he is, is desperate for attention
>>>again. This is evidenced by his abandoning all pretense to rational
>>>discourse and resorting to ad hominem attacks and malicious slander to
>>>goad honest and forthright people into responsding to his lies and
>>>innuendo.
>>
>> Since when does a pharmacist have to be excused for not knowing what
>>anyone who takes even high school chemistry knows about crystals? That
>>would be impossible in this country. Perhaps does not have any
>>standards.
>Of course pharmacists study a great deal of chemistry. Of course
>Pressac knows what crystals are. When Mr. Giwer presnets some evidence
>that Pressac doesn't know what crystals are, we can discuss it.
>BTW- Is this Giwer or Marduk. It's sometimes hard to tell Mr. Giwer
>from a parody of Mr. Giwer.
You will note you acknowledged he did not know what a crystal is.
mgi...@ix.netcom.com
r...@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>In article <4pv328$g...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer <mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>r...@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <31C1DD...@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison <t0...@unb.ca> wrote:
>>>>Richard J. Green wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
>>>>> Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
>>>>
>>>>The geologists among us forgive you for the assumption that only
>>>>chemists know crystals. ;>
>>>>
>>
>>>Fair enough. From now on all geologists will be expected to know.
>>>:-)
>>
>> Anyone who took high school chemistry knows it. Certainly a pharmacist
>>would know the difference. Unless this one never took a chemistry
>>course.
>>
>> The evidence is mounting that Pressac is a fraud in this regard also.
>Mr. Giwer's evidence that Pressac does not know is...
Richard J. Green of course. Unless of course he was being deceptive
again.
Richard Schultz
Prince Myshkin (mgi...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Do you forgive for his assumption that a pharmacist never took high
: school chemistry?
I am not even going to try to translate this statement from Giwerian into
English. I just want to point out that the very idea that Myshkin, who
to all appearances never took high school chemistry himself, is
criticizing other people's knowledge of chemistry, had me ROTFL.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
-----
"Life is a blur of Republicans and meat." -- Zippy
Daniel Keren
Matt Giwer <mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
# Sorry but Pressac is a pharmacist who does not know the basics of
# chemistry even at the high school level. That is why he calls them
# crystals.
He puts "crystals" in quotation marks, BTW. He's apparently well
aware that they are not really crystals, although some eyewitnesses
described them as such because of their appearance.
-Danny Keren.
Daniel Keren
Matt Giwer <mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
# Sorry but the much vaunted Degesh publication mentions ONLY wood pulp.
Document NI-9912 (Pressac, p. 18) mentions "small blue cubes (Erco)"
as one of the carriers.
This is the carrier you said did not exist, right?
# I can not change that. You can not change that.
Perhaps you can change other things? The fact you're a
compulsive liar, for starters?
-Danny Keren.
mgi...@ix.netcom.com
sch...@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>Prince Myshkin (mgi...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: Do you forgive for his assumption that a pharmacist never took high
>: school chemistry?
>I am not even going to try to translate this statement from Giwerian into
>English. I just want to point out that the very idea that Myshkin, who
>to all appearances never took high school chemistry himself, is
>criticizing other people's knowledge of chemistry, had me ROTFL.
Try it this way. Greenie excuses him, not me.
Keith Morrison <t0...@unb.ca> wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> Keith Morrison <t0...@unb.ca> wrote:
>>
>> >Richard J. Green wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> >> Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
>> >> Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
>>
>> >The geologists among us forgive you for the assumption that only
>> >chemists know crystals. ;>
>>
>> Do you forgive for his assumption that a pharmacist never took high
>> school chemistry?
>Before you go of spouting about chemistry, perhaps you would
>like to inform the audience what "oxidation state" refers to
>when talking about atoms and such?
Excuse me but your favorite pharamacist was "excused" for not know what
a crystal is. All you are saying is that he is as ignorant as I of
chemisty. Even more so as I have consistantly pointed to the crystal
nonsense.
So obiously I know more than he does about chemistry as that is so
fundamental.
===
So you see, you have Greenie's word that the man does not understand
what is a crystal.
mgi...@ix.netcom.com
dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>Matt Giwer <mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
># Sorry but Pressac is a pharmacist who does not know the basics of
># chemistry even at the high school level. That is why he calls them
># crystals.
>He puts "crystals" in quotation marks, BTW. He's apparently well
>aware that they are not really crystals, although some eyewitnesses
>described them as such because of their appearance.
Greenie excused him. Take it up with Greenie.
As to the eyewitnesses we know from the Degesh pub that there was only
wood pulp, period. Please do not confuse the Chech document with the
Degesh pub. We also know that the SS purchases from Degesh not the
Chechs.
And, knowing all of that, it is clear they were not blue, EVER.
mgi...@ix.netcom.com
dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>Matt Giwer <mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
># Sorry but the much vaunted Degesh publication mentions ONLY wood pulp.
>Document NI-9912 (Pressac, p. 18) mentions "small blue cubes (Erco)"
>as one of the carriers.
>This is the carrier you said did not exist, right?
Confusion reigns. This is from a Prague publid health organization, not
from the Degesh pub. Degesh does not mention selling it in this form.
># I can not change that. You can not change that.
>Perhaps you can change other things? The fact you're a
>compulsive liar, for starters?
Perhaps you can stop lying that the Prague pub is the Degesh pub some
day.
I doubt it but give it a try.
Daniel Keren
One may look at
ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/miscellany/dkeren-incoming/peters60.jpg
This is from a book by Dr. Gerhard Peters, who was the general
manager of Degesch (the firm that manufactured Zyklon-B).
As you can see, there is a photo of the three carriers for
HCN, cyanide gas. One of them are the small "Erco" pellets.
You may recall, boys and girls, that Giwer claims that Zyklon
of this type ("Erco") never existed.
-Danny Keren.
Daniel Keren
Matt Giwer <mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
# dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
[About Pressac]
## He puts "crystals" in quotation marks, BTW. He's apparently well
## aware that they are not really crystals, although some eyewitnesses
## described them as such because of their appearance.
# Greenie excused him. Take it up with Greenie.
Even if true, irrelevant. Mr. Green may have been mislead by
the fact that someone misquoted Pressac's text (leaving out
the quotation marks around "crystals"). Assuming, of course,
that you're not lying through your teeth again, and quoting
Mr. Green to something he never said - a habit of yours,
which you repeated just yesterday.
# As to the eyewitnesses we know from the Degesh pub that there
# was only wood pulp, period.
See my previous article. According to the book by Dr. Peters,
Degesch general manager, the small "Erco" pellets were also
a carrier. This is the carrier you say did not exist, right?
BTW, look at the label on the "Erco" can. What does it say?
# Please do not confuse the Chech document with the
# Degesh pub. We also know that the SS purchases from
# Degesh not the Chechs.
And where did the "Chechs" purchase it from?
# And, knowing all of that, it is clear they were not blue, EVER.
But it was also clear to Mr. Giwer, the 163-IQ man, that Belsen
camp was in Poland.
-Danny Keren.
mgi...@ix.netcom.com
r...@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>In article <4q074k$l...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
> <mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> Excuse me but your favorite pharamacist was "excused" for not know what
>>a crystal is. All you are saying is that he is as ignorant as I of
>>chemisty. Even more so as I have consistantly pointed to the crystal
>>nonsense.
>No, that's not what I said.
Are the >s wrong in this message?
mgi...@ix.netcom.com
dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>One may look at
>ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/miscellany/dkeren-incoming/peters60.jpg
>This is from a book by Dr. Gerhard Peters, who was the general
>manager of Degesch (the firm that manufactured Zyklon-B).
How do you know?
>As you can see, there is a photo of the three carriers for
>HCN, cyanide gas. One of them are the small "Erco" pellets.
>You may recall, boys and girls, that Giwer claims that Zyklon
>of this type ("Erco") never existed.
I said that the long secret Degesh publication does not mention it. You
need to learn to read what I say.
But when you get around to finding a technical description of "Erco" be
certain to post it. Until then, a trade name is not of much value.
mgi...@ix.netcom.com
dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>Matt Giwer <mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
># dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>[About Pressac]
>## He puts "crystals" in quotation marks, BTW. He's apparently well
>## aware that they are not really crystals, although some eyewitnesses
>## described them as such because of their appearance.
># Greenie excused him. Take it up with Greenie.
>Even if true, irrelevant. Mr. Green may have been mislead by
>the fact that someone misquoted Pressac's text (leaving out
>the quotation marks around "crystals"). Assuming, of course,
>that you're not lying through your teeth again, and quoting
>Mr. Green to something he never said - a habit of yours,
>which you repeated just yesterday.
Do you have a problem with this?
=====
Keith Morrison <t0...@unb.ca> wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> Keith Morrison <t0...@unb.ca> wrote:
>>
>> >Richard J. Green wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> >> Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
>> >> Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
>>
>> >The geologists among us forgive you for the assumption that only
>> >chemists know crystals. ;>
>>
>> Do you forgive for his assumption that a pharmacist never took high
>> school chemistry?
>Before you go of spouting about chemistry, perhaps you would
>like to inform the audience what "oxidation state" refers to
>when talking about atoms and such?
Excuse me but your favorite pharamacist was "excused" for not know what
a crystal is. All you are saying is that he is as ignorant as I of
chemisty. Even more so as I have consistantly pointed to the crystal
nonsense.
So obiously I know more than he does about chemistry as that is so
fundamental.
=====
># As to the eyewitnesses we know from the Degesh pub that there
># was only wood pulp, period.
>See my previous article. According to the book by Dr. Peters,
>Degesch general manager, the small "Erco" pellets were also
>a carrier. This is the carrier you say did not exist, right?
>BTW, look at the label on the "Erco" can. What does it say?
What is Erco? Any relation to Erkel? But lets see a source, not your
imagination.
># Please do not confuse the Chech document with the
># Degesh pub. We also know that the SS purchases from
># Degesh not the Chechs.
>And where did the "Chechs" purchase it from?
Why do you not ask them? It is not uncommon to license manufacture to
other companies.
># And, knowing all of that, it is clear they were not blue, EVER.
>But it was also clear to Mr. Giwer, the 163-IQ man, that Belsen
>camp was in Poland.
That is much less of a mistake than some of the eyewitnesses made about
Belsen. But you know that.
Richard J. Green
In article <4q1qjl$1...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
<mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>r...@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>
>>In article <4q074k$l...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
>> <mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>>a crystal is. All you are saying is that he is as ignorant as I of
>>>chemisty. Even more so as I have consistantly pointed to the crystal
>>>nonsense.
>
>
> Are the >s wrong in this message?
>
>
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>
>>> Keith Morrison <t0...@unb.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>> >Richard J. Green wrote:
>>>
>>> >>
>>> >> Yes, I know that they are not really crystals. Neither are opals.
>>> >> Nonchemists can be forgiven for the confusion.
>>>
>>> >The geologists among us forgive you for the assumption that only
>>> >chemists know crystals. ;>
>>>
>>> Do you forgive for his assumption that a pharmacist never took high
>>> school chemistry?
>
>>Before you go of spouting about chemistry, perhaps you would
>>like to inform the audience what "oxidation state" refers to
>>when talking about atoms and such?
>
> Excuse me but your favorite pharamacist was "excused" for not know what
>a crystal is. All you are saying is that he is as ignorant as I of
>chemisty. Even more so as I have consistantly pointed to the crystal
>nonsense.
No. Nonchemists in general were excused. Pressac clearly knows, thus
his emphasis on the word "crytals." If you have evidence that Pressac
does not know what a cystal is, please post it.
> So obiously I know more than he does about chemistry as that is so
>fundamental.
Perhaps, you'd like to educate us about oxidation-reduction chemistry.
Oh, I forgot your high school chemistry course didn't cover that.
Gord McFee
In article <4pnnop$2...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com (Matt
Giwer) said:
>
>r...@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>In article <4plqsr$s...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer <mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>Is it Mr. Giwer's assertion that there is only one form of Zyklon B?
>>Yes or no?
> I am asserting there is only one form described in the holocaust stories.
>If there is another form, Nizkor has it well hidden.
> If you know of another form used, please post the evidence. Don't forget
>the pea sized silica gel.
This fact has been posted several times. Even pictures have been posted.
The Giwer-troll knows full well that he is wrong again.
Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
they have been e-mailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
--
Gord McFee
.. I'll write no line before its time(gmc...@ibm.net)
-- MR/2 2.26 #331
Gord McFee
In article <4pvh0a$4...@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU>, r...@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) said:
>>
>> Since when does a pharmacist have to be excused for not knowing what
>>anyone who takes even high school chemistry knows about crystals? That
>>would be impossible in this country. Perhaps does not have any
>>standards.
>Of course pharmacists study a great deal of chemistry. Of course Pressac
>knows what crystals are. When Mr. Giwer presnets some evidence that
>Pressac doesn't know what crystals are, we can discuss it.
>BTW- Is this Giwer or Marduk. It's sometimes hard to tell Mr. Giwer from
>a parody of Mr. Giwer.
It could be either, since the Giwer-troll has been suspected of forging
Marduk posts in the past.
Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
John Morris
On Sun, 16 Jun 1996 07:30:48 GMT, mgi...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
[snip]
> As to the eyewitnesses we know from the Degesh pub that there was only
>wood pulp, period. Please do not confuse the Chech document with the
>Degesh pub. We also know that the SS purchases from Degesh not the
>Chechs.
> And, knowing all of that, it is clear they were not blue, EVER.
Okay, enough is enough. Whoever is forging these posts from Mr. Giwer
just stop it right now. Mr. Giwer knows perfectly well that the Health
Institution of the Reich-Protektorat was part of the Nazi colonial
government in Czechoslovakia and headquartered in Prague. Mr. Giwer
knows perfectly well that they would have been the agency to advise
the SS on the safe use of Zyklon-B and that they obtained their
information from Degesch.
Mr. Giwer can make himself look stupid enough without any help from
some stinking marduk-troll. So quit it.
John Morris
On Sun, 16 Jun 1996 07:32:43 GMT, mgi...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>Matt Giwer <mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>># Sorry but the much vaunted Degesh publication mentions ONLY wood pulp.
>>Document NI-9912 (Pressac, p. 18) mentions "small blue cubes (Erco)"
>>as one of the carriers.
>>This is the carrier you said did not exist, right?
> Confusion reigns. This is from a Prague publid health organization, not
>from the Degesh pub. Degesh does not mention selling it in this form.
Daniel Keren
## This is from a book by Dr. Gerhard Peters, who was the general
## manager of Degesch (the firm that manufactured Zyklon-B).
# How do you know?
How do I know what? That Dr. Peters was the general manager of
Degesch? Don't tell me you're going to deny this also?
# I said that the long secret Degesh publication does not mention
# it. You need to learn to read what I say.
Erco was a carrier for HCN, and was also manufactured by Degesch;
as I said, the cans with the Erco pellets have the Degech label on
them.
It would be better for you to drop this subject. You've made a
damned fool of yourself already. No need to carry on.
-Danny Keren.
Daniel Keren
mgi...@ix.netcom.com writes:
# Excuse me but your favorite pharamacist was "excused" for not
# know what a crystal is.
Pressac obviously does not claim that the Erco pellets were
crystals. This was explained to you already.
But go on lying. I know. It's a disease. You can't help it.
-Danny Keren.
mgi...@ix.netcom.com
gmc...@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>In article <4pnnop$2...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com (Matt
>Giwer) said:
>>
>>r...@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>>In article <4plqsr$s...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>Matt Giwer <mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>Is it Mr. Giwer's assertion that there is only one form of Zyklon B?
>>>Yes or no?
>> I am asserting there is only one form described in the holocaust stories.
>>If there is another form, Nizkor has it well hidden.
>> If you know of another form used, please post the evidence. Don't forget
>>the pea sized silica gel.
>This fact has been posted several times. Even pictures have been posted.
>The Giwer-troll knows full well that he is wrong again.
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been e-mailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgi...@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT
" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. "
IMT VII - p.491.
mgi...@ix.netcom.com
gmc...@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>In article <4pvh0a$4...@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU>, r...@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU
>(Richard J. Green) said:
>>>
>>> Since when does a pharmacist have to be excused for not knowing what
>>>anyone who takes even high school chemistry knows about crystals? That
>>>would be impossible in this country. Perhaps does not have any
>>>standards.
>>Of course pharmacists study a great deal of chemistry. Of course Pressac
>>knows what crystals are. When Mr. Giwer presnets some evidence that
>>Pressac doesn't know what crystals are, we can discuss it.
>>BTW- Is this Giwer or Marduk. It's sometimes hard to tell Mr. Giwer from
>>a parody of Mr. Giwer.
>It could be either, since the Giwer-troll has been suspected of forging
>Marduk posts in the past.
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
mgi...@ix.netcom.com
mgi...@ix.netcom.com
jmo...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>On Sun, 16 Jun 1996 07:30:48 GMT, mgi...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>[snip]
>> As to the eyewitnesses we know from the Degesh pub that there was only
>>wood pulp, period. Please do not confuse the Chech document with the
>>Degesh pub. We also know that the SS purchases from Degesh not the
>>Chechs.
>> And, knowing all of that, it is clear they were not blue, EVER.
>Okay, enough is enough. Whoever is forging these posts from Mr. Giwer
>just stop it right now. Mr. Giwer knows perfectly well that the Health
>Institution of the Reich-Protektorat was part of the Nazi colonial
>government in Czechoslovakia and headquartered in Prague. Mr. Giwer
>knows perfectly well that they would have been the agency to advise
>the SS on the safe use of Zyklon-B and that they obtained their
>information from Degesch.
>Mr. Giwer can make himself look stupid enough without any help from
>some stinking marduk-troll. So quit it.
Nice try, phys ed major.
Everyone does know that the only type described as useful for pest
control used wood pulp.
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgi...@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT
[
mgi...@ix.netcom.com
dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>mgi...@ix.netcom.com writes:
># dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>## This is from a book by Dr. Gerhard Peters, who was the general
>## manager of Degesch (the firm that manufactured Zyklon-B).
>
># How do you know?
>How do I know what? That Dr. Peters was the general manager of
>Degesch? Don't tell me you're going to deny this also?
How do you know this is a page from a book written by him?
># I said that the long secret Degesh publication does not mention
># it. You need to learn to read what I say.
>Erco was a carrier for HCN, and was also manufactured by Degesch;
>as I said, the cans with the Erco pellets have the Degech label on
>them.
What is Erco? How do you know who manufactured it? What are your
sources?
>It would be better for you to drop this subject. You've made a
>damned fool of yourself already. No need to carry on.
Danny boy, the pipes are not calling, it is the requiem of gassing that
is calling.
Daniel Keren
mgi...@ix.netcom.com writes:
# dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
## How do I know what? That Dr. Peters was the general manager of
## Degesch? Don't tell me you're going to deny this also?
# How do you know this is a page from a book written by him?
I have a complete xeorx copy of the book, sent to me courtesy
of Dr. Ulrich Roessler. I've scanned a few pages of it; see
previous article for their location. I understand that you
already looked at them?
## Erco was a carrier for HCN, and was also manufactured by Degesch;
## as I said, the cans with the Erco pellets have the Degech label on
## them.
# What is Erco? How do you know who manufactured it? What are your
# sources?
You claimed silica gel cannot be in the size of peas. This is
false. You claimed Zyklon didn't come with an Erco carrier. This is
false. You claimed Degesch didn't manufacture it with an Erco
carrier. This is false.
After a little additional translation work, you will also see
that everything you claimed regarding the evaporation rate of
the HCN from the Zyklon is false.
You have made a complete and total idiot of yourself, as usual.
Every claim you posted was a lie, as usual. You think that your
pathetic attempts to divert the discussion will succeed?
You're a compulsive liar, a fool, and an ignorant. Learn to
live with it. It's probably too late to change.
-Danny Keren.
mgi...@ix.netcom.com
dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>mgi...@ix.netcom.com writes:
># dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>
>## How do I know what? That Dr. Peters was the general manager of
>## Degesch? Don't tell me you're going to deny this also?
>
># How do you know this is a page from a book written by him?
>
>I have a complete xeorx copy of the book, sent to me courtesy
>of Dr. Ulrich Roessler. I've scanned a few pages of it; see
>previous article for their location. I understand that you
>already looked at them?
>
>## Erco was a carrier for HCN, and was also manufactured by Degesch;
>## as I said, the cans with the Erco pellets have the Degech label on
>## them.
>
># What is Erco? How do you know who manufactured it? What are your
># sources?
>
>You claimed silica gel cannot be in the size of peas. This is
>false. You claimed Zyklon didn't come with an Erco carrier. This is
>false. You claimed Degesch didn't manufacture it with an Erco
>carrier. This is false.
What is your evidence that this Erco stuff is silica gel?
>After a little additional translation work, you will also see
>that everything you claimed regarding the evaporation rate of
>the HCN from the Zyklon is false.
What is your evidence this form was used?
>You have made a complete and total idiot of yourself, as usual.
>Every claim you posted was a lie, as usual. You think that your
>pathetic attempts to divert the discussion will succeed?
>You're a compulsive liar, a fool, and an ignorant. Learn to
>live with it. It's probably too late to change.
Keep trying to salvage it. As I said ...
But specifically as to that scan of a single page, There is not even a
caption to the picture of the page. There is nothing indicating the
different purposes to which the different carriers were used. However
we do have a specific purpose in the Degesh publication.
We do know that from a Degesh publication entitled "Kyklon for Pest
Control" we have a specific purpose for this carrier and there is one
and only carrier mentioned. We also know from the weight of myth on
this subject that the type used for pest control is the type that was
supposedly used on people. Therefore this is a description of the type
that was supposedly used for gassing people.
QED
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: With evidence like this ...
From: mgi...@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:18:10 GMT
Amazing what some of the heroes of the holohuggers will say when under
oath.
1/24/85
Holocaust heavyweight Rudolf Vrba, under cross-examination in a
Canadian courtroom,
states under oath that 150,000 French Jews were gassed at
Auschwitz, in spite of the fact
that the entire number of Jews deported from France were only
75,721. Vrba claims he
arrived at his count "scientifically" by having listened to the
language spoken by the inmates
at Auschwitz and examining their luggage (!). The author of "I
Cannot Forgive" next
confessed that his book was "an artistic picture ... not a document
for a court," in spite of
the fact that Vrba's testimony was crucial to both the War Refugee
Board and the Auschwitz
Trials in West Germany. Vrba further admitted that his written and
pictorial descriptions of
Auschwitz crematoria were a result of guessing, based on "what I
heard it might look like."
Oops!
Keith Morrison
mgi...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> >Before you go of spouting about chemistry, perhaps you would
> >like to inform the audience what "oxidation state" refers to
> >when talking about atoms and such?
>
> Excuse me but your favorite pharamacist was "excused" for not know what
> a crystal is. All you are saying is that he is as ignorant as I of
> chemisty. Even more so as I have consistantly pointed to the crystal
> nonsense.
>
> So obiously I know more than he does about chemistry as that is so
> fundamental.
What does the term "oxidation state" mean, Mr Giwer?
--
Keith Morrison
t0...@unb.ca
"Be vewy, vewy quiet. I'm hunting Twolls."
mgi...@ix.netcom.com
Keith Morrison <t0...@unb.ca> wrote:
>mgi...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> >Before you go of spouting about chemistry, perhaps you would
>> >like to inform the audience what "oxidation state" refers to
>> >when talking about atoms and such?
>>
>> Excuse me but your favorite pharamacist was "excused" for not know what
>> a crystal is. All you are saying is that he is as ignorant as I of
>> chemisty. Even more so as I have consistantly pointed to the crystal
>> nonsense.
>>
>> So obiously I know more than he does about chemistry as that is so
>> fundamental.
>What does the term "oxidation state" mean, Mr Giwer?
It is something unnecessary when they could combust bodies with fuel.
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No wonder we can't find the bodies
From: mgi...@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:39:36 GMT
" MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I have certain information, which was placed
in my hands, of an
experiment which was carried out near Auschwitz and I would like to ask
you [Albert Speer] if you
heard about it or knew about it. The purpose of the experiment was to
find a quick and complete
way of destroying people without the delay and trouble of shooting and
gassing and burning, as it
had been carried out, and this is the experiment, as I am advised. A
village, a small village was
provisionally erected, with temporary structures, and in it
approximately 20,000 Jews were put. By
means of this newly invented weapon of destruction, these 20,000 people
were eradicated
almost instantaneously, and in such a way that there was no trace."
IMT XVI - p.529.
John Morris
On Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:29:01 GMT, mgi...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
[snip]
> Nice try, phys ed major.
> Everyone does know that the only type described as useful for pest
>control used wood pulp.
I would be not be surprised at this point to learn that .163 was your
Little League batting average. It would explain a lot.
[spam snipped]
Richard J. Green
In article <4q4q2i$b...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
<mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Keith Morrison <t0...@unb.ca> wrote:
>
>>mgi...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>>> >Before you go of spouting about chemistry, perhaps you would
>>> >like to inform the audience what "oxidation state" refers to
>>> >when talking about atoms and such?
>>>
>>> Excuse me but your favorite pharamacist was "excused" for not know what
>>> a crystal is. All you are saying is that he is as ignorant as I of
>>> chemisty. Even more so as I have consistantly pointed to the crystal
>>> nonsense.
>>>
>>> So obiously I know more than he does about chemistry as that is so
>>> fundamental.
>
>>What does the term "oxidation state" mean, Mr Giwer?
>
> It is something unnecessary when they could combust bodies with fuel.
Translation: Mr. Giwer doesn't know even after I posted a lesson on the
topic.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green Dept. of Chemistry
r...@lyman.Stanford.EDU Stanford University
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud Stanford, CA 94305-5080
"Remember the days of yore,
"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
-Deuteronomy 32:7
mgi...@ix.netcom.com
jmo...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>On Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:29:01 GMT, mgi...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>[snip]
>> Nice try, phys ed major.
>> Everyone does know that the only type described as useful for pest
>>control used wood pulp.
>I would be not be surprised at this point to learn that .163 was your
>Little League batting average. It would explain a lot.
You do understand your juvenalia does not change anything.
It says what it says. Nothing more and nothing less.
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What a clever way to kill people
From: mgi...@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:48:00 GMT
"PAUL WALDMANN: In this small room [at Sachsenhausen] there was a slot
in the wall,
approximately 50 centimeters in length. The prisoner of war stood with
the back of his head
against the slot and a sniper shot at him from behind the slot. In
practice this arrangement did not
prove satisfactory, since the sniper often missed the prisoner. After 8
days a new arrangement
was made. The prisoner, as before, was placed against the wall; an iron
plate was then slowly
lowered onto his head. The prisoner was under the impression that he was
being measured for
height. The iron plate contained a ramrod which shot out suddenly and
poleaxed the prisoner with
a blow on the back of the head. He dropped dead. The iron plate was
operated by a foot lever in
a corner of the room. "
IMT VII - p. 377.
Gord McFee
In article <4q34ur$i...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com
said:
>>Erco was a carrier for HCN, and was also manufactured by Degesch;
>>as I said, the cans with the Erco pellets have the Degech label on
>>them.
> What is Erco? How do you know who manufactured it? What are your
>sources?
The great chemist can't do his own research?
A brief sampling of the Giwer-troll lies.
1. That the allies did not refer to themselves as the "United
Nations";
2. That tape recorders were not available during WWII;
3. That head lice are the vector for typhus;
4. That the IMT convicted and hung defendants for participating in
the Katyn Wood massacre;
5. That Oswald Pohl was convicted of "steaming" people to death;
6. That Turkey is part of Europe;
7. That Raoul Wallenberg was a financial contributor to building
the Holocaust Museum in Washington;
8. That there were no protests in front of the Cambodian embassy
in Washington;
9. That "Miranda rights" were not in use in the miliary justice
system prior to the Miranda decision;
10. That the jury system is considered a basic human right by the
United Nations . . . .. .
11. That Israel has a written constitution;
12. That CO2 gas cannot be an acid;
13. That burning of coke is a commercial source of HCN;
14. That the Nazi boycott of Jewish stores in April 1933 lasted
only one day. . . .
15. That Ca3(PO4)2 burns.
16. That burning atmospheric nitrogen produces HCN.
17. That human beings are only (.18)(.10) = 1.8% fat.
18. That combustion of the human body is not exothermic.
19. That atmospheric CO2 saturates water so that it cannot
dissolve more CO2 if the partial pressure increase.
20. That the calcium in bones burns.
21. That Mr. McFee is Marduk.
22. That Mueller was not head of the Gestapo.
Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
whose only interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing
others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts
which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been
e-mailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted himself
with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there
seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. For detailed
and documented evidence of this, please refer to
URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
mgi...@ix.netcom.com
r...@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>In article <4q4q2i$b...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
> <mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>Keith Morrison <t0...@unb.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>mgi...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>
>>>> >Before you go of spouting about chemistry, perhaps you would
>>>> >like to inform the audience what "oxidation state" refers to
>>>> >when talking about atoms and such?
>>>>
>>>> Excuse me but your favorite pharamacist was "excused" for not know what
>>>> a crystal is. All you are saying is that he is as ignorant as I of
>>>> chemisty. Even more so as I have consistantly pointed to the crystal
>>>> nonsense.
>>>>
>>>> So obiously I know more than he does about chemistry as that is so
>>>> fundamental.
>>
>>>What does the term "oxidation state" mean, Mr Giwer?
>>
>> It is something unnecessary when they could combust bodies with fuel.
>Translation: Mr. Giwer doesn't know even after I posted a lesson on the
>topic.
Is this the lesson you were talking about?
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No fuel needed
From: mgi...@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT
"MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a
check at each
one so that the people believed that they would get their things back
.... When the last one was in,
the doors were shut and the gas was let into the room. As soon as death
had set in, the
ventilators were started. When the air could be breathed again, the
doors were opened, and the
Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special procedure...
they were burned in the
open air without the use of fuel. "
IMT XX - p. 494.
More Nazi physics at work.
I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one.
On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could
do this?
Mark Van Alstine
In article <4ptifm$m...@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com (Matt
Giwer) wrote:
> mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>
> >In article <4pqn96$g...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com
> >(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>
> >> 10064...@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
> >>
>
> >[snip]
>
> >> >Silica gel, crystal, aso.. You were answered that silica gel, the
> >> >common carrier of Zyklon-B, was bluish. Then you played games with
> >> >some witnesses calling this gel 'crystal', but yourself called the
> >> >diatomite 'kaolinite', an equally incorrect appellation. It remains
> >> >that silica gel is bluish. I can post here some photos of genuine
> >> >silica gel if you want.
> >>
> >> But as you know by now from the Degesh pub that silica gel was not used
> >> as the carrier, rather either wood pulp.
>
> >DEGESCH evidently used several carriers for HCN in Zyklon B: Erco (silica
> >gel), diatomite (diatomaceous earth), and wood pulp. Zyklon B using a wood
> >pulp carrier was in the form of cardboard disks. Zyklon B using Erco as
> >the carrier was in the form of small blue pellets (often referred to as
> >crystals). Both types of Zyklon B carriers can be seen on page 17 of
> >Pressac's _Technique_.
>
> Sorry but the much vaunted Degesh publication mentions ONLY wood pulp.
> I can not change that. You can not change that.
Has the Giwer-Troll even bothere to read the _Directives for the Use of
Prussic Acid (Zyklon) for the Destruction of Vermin (Disinfestation)
Translation of Document No. NI-9912 Office of Chief Counsel of War
Crimes_?
In this document, he much vaunted Degesh publication, it _specifically
staes that:
"ZYKLON is the absorption of a mixture of prussic acid and an irritant by
a carrier. Wood fibre discs, a reddish brown granular mass (diagriess -
Dia gravel) or small blue cubes (Erco) are used as carriers."
Source: _Technique_, p.18; http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/incon/zyklon.html
Now, how much longer will the Giwer-Troll continue to falsely claim that
"the much vaunted Degesh publication mentions ONLY wood pulp?"
[Giwer-Troll drivel snipped]
> Sorry but the blue color comes from the addition of cobalt chloride and
> is added when used as a dessicant.
An interesting claim. Cobalt chloride is used as an absorbent for
_ammonia_ in dyes and as a catalyst.
A desiccant, or drying agent, is generally understood to be compound which
is hydrophillic. To whit:
drying agent - Soluble or insoluble chemical substance that has such a
great affinity for water that it will abstract water from a great man y
fluid materials; soluble chemicals are calcium cholride and glycerol, and
insoluble chemicals are bauxite and silica gel. Also known as desiccant.
(_McGraw-Hill Dictionary of chemical terms_, p.143.)
> Sorry but the picture posted in this conference of Zyklon B was
> greyscale and does not support your contention.
>
> Sorry but you can not salvage this one.
Actually, considering that the Giwer-Troll has simply claimed, without
evidence, that cobalt chloride was added to Zyklon B, and that cobolt
cloride is used as an absorbant for ammonia, and that silica gel itself is
a desiccant, I would suggest that is the Giwer-Troll who cannot "salvage
this one."
> >> You also know that the blue color comes from the addition of cobalt
> >> chloride as a dryness indicator when it is used as a desicant and has no
> >> other value.
>
> >It is interesting to note that cyanides are slowly hydrolysed [to CO3(2)
> >and NH3]. Perhaps the addition of cobalt chloride, given that it is used
> >to indicate the presence of moisture, had a purpose after all? Perhaps as
> >a visual indicator regarding the reliability of the Zyklon B in some
> >fashion?
>
> They were in sealed containers. If water got in, the gas got out. The
> better indicator would be the dead man who tried getting it from the
> supply room.
And does not the air that was sealed in the container have moisture?
> >But, of course, this presumes that the blue coloration came from the
> >addition of cobalt chloride to the silica gel carrier. What actual
> >evidence does the Giwer-Troll have that indicates that cobalt chloride was
> >indeed added to the silica gel carrier of Zyklon B? Please be sure to
> >provide full citations to the source material.
>
> Do you not remember the pissed off post from the sci.chem conference?
> Are you not reading the mail?
Perhap's the Giwer-Troll would care to repost where it was said that
cobalt chloride was added to Zyklon B? Perhaps the Giwer-Troll would also
care to post the manufacturer's confirmation that cobalt chloride was
added to Zyklon B?
> I did not say that it was added for Zyklon B. I said silica gel was not
> used at all according to the Degesh publication. Why can you not
> recount what I said?
Becuase the Giwer-Troll is unquestionably wrong in his claim that silca
gel was not used as a carrier for Zyklon B, as the Degesch manual
explicity confirms.
> I have further pointed out that silica gel is NOT naturally blue but
> only when an additive for use as a desicant.
And the Giwer-Trolls evidense for this? Post a photo of unadulterated
silica gel. Then explain, with factual evidence, how the addition of
prussic acid and a stabilizer would not give the blue color to Zyklon B
with an Erco (silica gel) carrier.
> >[snip]
>
> >> But in case you missed the Degesh pub...
> >>
> >> Source: Zyklon for Pest Control, Degesch Publication
>
> >Full citation please. If this was taken off a website, then please provide
> >the URL. If this is a publication, please provide the ISBN, LC number,
> >archive reference, etc..
>
> There is a holohugger here who claims to have it. When HE posts it in
> its entirety I will provide the link. The boy obviously does not want
> it posted. Rather he wanted to play games with it. That same goes for
> the claim of actually having the patent.
Notice that the Giwer-Troll evades posting HIS source for the Degesch
manual. Why is this? Could it be, perhaps, because the Giwer-Troll has not
_seen_ the Degesch manual (NI-9912) for himself? Why, that would be...
dishonest!
> >> ...The few deficiencies of this procedure were removed in the early
> >> twenties by the ZYKLON method: One added liquid HCN to a "carrier
> >> substance", thus simplifying handling whilst all favourable properties
> >> of liquid HCN were maintained. At the same time, danger to the operator
> >> was reduced to a minimum....
>
> >So much for the claim that liquid HCN (i.e. stored in tanks) would be more
> >effient (or preferable) than Zyklon B....
>
> Who claimed that? Please be specific in your response.
In article <317b9ec0...@news.pacificnet.net>,tom moran
<t...@pacificnet.net> wrote:"They could have done the same thing with any
HCN in liquid form.They could have used the liquid form by squirting it
into thechamber. The whole thing could have been set up so all any SS
would have to do is pour it into an existing and permanent device which
would then introduce it to the chamber. They could have used the HCN in
gas form directly, fed in from tanks."
In article <31792140...@news.pacificnet.net>,tom moran
<t...@pacificnet.net> wrote: "After all, the story itself tells us 900,000
to 2,000,000 people were gassed to death by carbon monoxide. We can't
overlook the question of why the Germans wouldn't have used HCN in a
liquid form, which in fact is a form it can come in. Or, why they wouldn't
have used it in another form that it can come in - gas."
In article <316d146d...@news.pacificnet.net>,tom moran
<t...@pacificnet.net> wrote: "HCN can come in a liquid form. If a liquid was
used for any alleged exterminations, it would have been way more
time/cost/efficiency efficient."
> >[snip]
>
> >> ...Hydrocyanic acid in the form of ZYKLON can be safely stored for
> >> considerable periods and under all climatic conditions, any quantity
> >> of gas can be easily measured, quickly and cleanly released. Any
> >> residures are completely harmless....
>
> >So much for the claim that the spent Zyklon B posed a hazard....
>
> After 12 hours, as you read.
No, after the HCN has evaporated from the carrier. This takes far less
than 12 hours. It happens in a matter of minutes in the case of a silica
gel carrier.
I'm not sure where the 12 hours cited by the Giwer-Troll comes from. The
Degesch manual (IX The strength of the gas and the time required for it to
take effect depend on [_Technique_, p.19]) states:
"...Time needed to take effect: 16 hours, unless there are special
circumstances such as a closed-in type of building, which requires less
time. If the weather is warm it is possible to reduce this time to a
minimum of 6 hours. The period is to be extended to at least 32 hours if
the temperature is below 5 deg. Cent.
"The strength and time as above are to be applied in the case of: bugs,
lice, fleas, etc, with eggs, larves and chrysales.
"For clothes moths: temperatures above 10 deg. Cent.: 16 g per m3 and 24
hours to take effect.
"For flour-moths: same as bugs.
Please note: "the time required for it to take effect." This is not the
same as the time required for the HCN to evaporate from the carrier. The
Degesch manual, as the Giwer-Troll should know, was discussing time in
regards to the total _fumigation_ time for pest control, not how fast the
HCN evaporated. In fact, the Degesch manual also stated (X fumigation of a
building):
"8. Open the cans and pour out their contents. The contents are to be
spread thinly so that the Zyklon can evaporate quickly and the necessary
density of the gas can be achieved as soon as possible..." (Ibid.)
Please note: "so that the Zyklon can evaporate quickly."
> >> Composition
> >>
> >> In ZYKLON pure (98%-99%) liquid hydrocyanic acid is chemically
> >> stabilized and absorbed in a porous, inert material. It is supplied in
> >> snippets or discs prepared from wood pulp. Snippets generally are
preferred
> >> as in view of their larger surface they give of the gas more rapidly. Upon
> >> request also discs can be supplied. The aborbent material can easily be
> >> collected at the end of the fumigation.
>
> >I would really like to see the origional source for this passage, as the
> >"Directives for the Use of Prussic Acid (Zyklon) for the Destruction of
> >Vermin (Disinfestation)" [NI-9912] states:
>
> >"ZYKLON is the absorption of a mixture of prussic acid and an irritant by
> >a carrier. Wood fibre discs, a reddish brown granular mass (diagriess -
> >Dia gravel) or small blue cubes (Erco) are used as carriers."
> >(_Technique_, p.18; and
> >http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/incon/zyklon.html)
>
> >This would imply that "snippets" are not pieces of wood pulp but some
> >other carrier like Erco or diatomite. The "wood pulp" carrier existsed
> >only if the form of fiber disks.
>
> You will have to take up the discrepency with Degesh, not me.
On the contrary, the Degesch manual (NI-9912) makes no mention of
"snippets." This is a construct of the Giwer-Troll's, hence it is only
logical that the Giwer-Troll should explain his attributing "snippets" to
the Degesch manual when the manual makes no such use of the word!
The Degesch manual, however, DOES make mention of "small blue cubes (Erco)."
Methinks the Giwer-Troll has been caught in his lies again. Tsk tsk.
> >[snip]
>
> >>...The tins are opened, and the ZYKLON is scattered so as to reach even the
> >> remotest parts of the building. If this is done correctly the gas will
> >develop evenly and instantaneously throughout the premises....
>
> >So much the claim that it took a long time for the Zyklon emit a lethal
> >concentration of HCN gas because it developed slowly....
>
> Perhaps but at least we have something more solid to go on than orthodox
> nonsense.
Notice that when the Giwer-Troll "cites" the Degesch manual it is done
with the airs of orthodoxy (even if such "citation" is sheer nonsense),
but when another _really_ cites the Degesch manual (NI-9912) and show the
Giwer-Troll to be a puerile liar, he claims that person is citing "
orthodox nonsense!"
Methinks the Giwer-Troll is not only a liar but a hypocrite as well.
> >Aside from Giwer shooting several pet denier "theories" in the head, what
> >was Giwer-Troll's point? That Zyklon B pellets of Erco weren't blue? But
> >as it says right in the DEGESCH manual, they _were_ blue.
>
> Where does it say that your source is Degesh?
Does Giwer understand the meaning of NI-9912 and where it came from? But
even more interesting, now that Giwer, after HIMSELF "citing" Degesch
manual (though he NEVER provided a source citation for it) and has been
shown to be a liar and a hypocrite, has the chutzpah to now "question"
that that NI-9912 came from Degesch?
How droll the Giwer-Troll can be!
> >Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semitic troller whose only
>
> Ah, yes. Your favorite true truths are shown to be nonsense and this is
> the best you can do, copy your idol McVay.
Indeed. (Though, I must admit, my great respect for Mr. McVay's efforts
does not extend to idolizing him.) Especially when it IS the truth! As the
Giwer-Troll has once more, ever so helpfully, PROVEN above!
The Giwer-Troll is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semitic and racist
troller whose only interest is in slandering Jews and causing fights.
While he can sometimes sound superficially plausible, he has profusely and
consistantly lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing
others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts
which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have
been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive
anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, sexism, and has generally conducted himself
with such a complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there
seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. For detailed
and documented evidence of this, please refer to
URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
Mark
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts."
-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Van Alstine
> mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>
> >In article <4pv328$g...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com
> >(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>
[snip]
> >> The evidence is mounting that Pressac is a fraud in this regard also.
>
> >The only mounting evidence here, rather, is that the Giwer-Troll, being
> >the despicable and malignant person he is, is desperate for attention
> >again. This is evidenced by his abandoning all pretense to rational
> >discourse and resorting to ad hominem attacks and malicious slander to
> >goad honest and forthright people into responsding to his lies and
> >innuendo.
>
> Since when does a pharmacist have to be excused for not knowing what
> anyone who takes even high school chemistry knows about crystals? That
> would be impossible in this country. Perhaps does not have any
> standards.
The only evidence of a lack of standards here, rather, is by the
Giwer-Troll who, being a despicable and malignant person, is so desperate
for attention he abandons all standards of civil and rational discourse
and resorts to ad hominem attacks and malicious slander to goad honest and
forthright people into responsding to his lies and innuendo.
Mark Van Alstine
In article <4prb0h$s...@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com
(Matt Giwer) wrote:
> mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>
> >In article <4po2f6$r...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com
> >(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>
> >> mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> >>
> >> >BEGIN -- Cut Here -- cut here
> >> >begin 644 Zyklon B.jpg
> >>
> >> Next time ...
> >>
> >> 1) Use an underscore instead of a space.
>
> >Why? My Mac handles spaces in file names just fine....
>
> Anyone believing the Mac has anything to do with the market, including
> all UNIX variations is an idiot.
Does the Giwer-Troll really think that the Mac has nothing to do with the
market? But of course, my reply said nothing about Apple's marketshare but
that my Mac had no problem with spaces in file names.
Obviously, the Giwer-Troll has a reading disability and should seek help....
> Beyond that, as spaces have been the fundamental parsing rule since
> computers were programmed with patch panels (early 1950s) it is quite
> difficult to believe you are telling the truth.
If the Giwer-Troll finds it hard to believe that I'm telling the truth
then I suggest it is merely the Giwer-Troll projecting again. As to some
"fundemental parsing rule? Please. Does the term "whitespace" ring a bell
in the Giwer-Troll's belfry? If not perhaps the Giwer-Troll could turn to
page 55 of K&R.
The simple truth is that the use (or non-use) of whitespace in file names
is a _convention_ and is not in any way some restricted by some
"fundamental parsing rule." The Mac, striving to be more user-friendly,
simply allows whitespace in file names.
> Are you really claiming
> the Mac OS knows when and when not to ignore spaces?
The Giwer-Troll is obviously Mac illiterate....
> >> 2) Post a color picture.
>
> >The photo was b/w.
>
> That does not prove blue any more than the fanciful picture of Jewish
> women beind shot proved they were either women or Jewish.
Well then, if the Giwer-Troll wishes to play games, neither does it prove
that Zyklon B is NOT blue!
The Giwer-Troll is _such_ a pissant, which reminds me:
Mark Van Alstine
In article <4pv4ca$p...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com
(Matt Giwer) wrote:
[snip]
> You continue to miss the point....
On the contrary, I understand the "point" quite well: The point was that
the Giwer-Troll doesn't have the slightest clue if cobalt chloride was
actually added to Zyklon B for some reasons or if the blue color of Erco
was due to some other factor.
That "point" still stands.
[Giwer-Troll teeth gnashing snipped]
Richard J. Green
In article <4q6lug$6...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
<mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>r...@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>
>>In article <4q4q2i$b...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
>> <mgi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>Keith Morrison <t0...@unb.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>>mgi...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>> >Before you go of spouting about chemistry, perhaps you would
>>>>> >like to inform the audience what "oxidation state" refers to
>>>>> >when talking about atoms and such?
>>>>>
>>>>> Excuse me but your favorite pharamacist was "excused" for not know what
>>>>> a crystal is. All you are saying is that he is as ignorant as I of
>>>>> chemisty. Even more so as I have consistantly pointed to the crystal
>>>>> nonsense.
>>>>>
>>>>> So obiously I know more than he does about chemistry as that is so
>>>>> fundamental.
>>>
>>>>What does the term "oxidation state" mean, Mr Giwer?
>>>
>>> It is something unnecessary when they could combust bodies with fuel.
>
>>Translation: Mr. Giwer doesn't know even after I posted a lesson on the
>>topic.
>
> Is this the lesson you were talking about?
What does the term "oxidation state" mean, Mr Giwer?
Daniel Keren
Gordon: you missed a memorable Giwer hilite - he claimed Belsen
camp was in Poland.
-Danny Keren.
mgi...@ix.netcom.com
gmc...@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing
>others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts
>which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been
>e-mailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted himself
>with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there
>seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. For detailed
>and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
The power research department of the Institute for Advanced Holohugger
Exposure has swung into action.
1) Quotes 15,000 per day for Belzec, 20,000 per day for Sobibor, 25,000
per day for Treblinka.
But perhaps they took the weekends off to get the average down to
today's slightly less absurd numbers.
2) Claims that Hitler and Himmler were at Majdanek (Lublin) on 15
August1942. Hitler is supposed to have said: "Quicker, quicker, carry
out the whole program!" Globocnik goes into his speech about sinking
bronze tablets into the ground commemorating the deed, and Hitler says,
"Yes, my good Globocnik, that is the word, that is my opinion, too."
Which is quite an incriminating statement by Hitler. Maybe it was one
of his doubles because he was never near the place.
3) On August 18, 1942, a train arrives at Belzec, 45 train cars with
6,700 people, of whom 1,450 are already dead.
Although not as bad as the packing factor below still pretty good.
4) The hair of the women is put into huge potatobags for "special
submarine equipment, doormats, etc."
Looks like these witnesses all had a hair fetish.
5) <quote> Completely naked they march by, men, women, girls, babies,
even one-legged persons, completely naked.<end quote> in Augst.
Perhaps it was the handicapped drill team from Lublin. But wait there's
more
<quote>Meanwhile, the rest of the transport, all naked, wait. Somebody
says to me, "Naked in winter! But they can die that way!"<end quote>
The weather appears to be quite changeable in Poland.
6) <quote>7-800 crushed together on 25 square meters, in 45 cubic
meters!<end quote>
Lets give him the benefit of the doubt here and use 700. That means the
human body fits in a 0.06 meter cube. For the part of the world that
matters, that is a cube 15.8 inches on a side. Does, "not even if
reduced to liquid" mean anything to anyone?
Of course he might have just been trying to say that there were 28
people per square meter and that the roof was high enough that they
could form five high human pyramids.
7) The diesel engine fails to start. It takes 2 hours and 49 minutes,
according to Gerstein, who is using a stopwatch. Then it starts and it
takes 32 minutes to kill the people in the chamber.
And the famous story of how all of these people died, not from lack of
oxygen after 2 hours and 49 minutes in a sealed room, but from diesel
exhaust.
8) <quote>The figures announced by the BBC are inaccurate. Actually,
about 25 million persons were killed: not only Jews, however but
especially Poles and Czechoslovakians, too, who were in the opinion of
the Nazis bad stock. <end quote>
It appears the holocausters are ignoring many more than the remaining 6
million, but rather the remaining 19 million victims.
9) at Treblinka <quote>There were 8 gas chanbers and whole mountains of
clothes and underwear about 35 -40 meters high <end quote>
Sounds like Mt. Trashmore to me. Lets see between 115 and 130 foot high
piles of clothing and underwear. Although the underwear would account
for the smell it is unclear how those Polish spies missed this.
10) Gerstein claims that the worst camps were Auschwitz and Mauthausen,
where <quote> These are the places where millions of people disappeared
in gas chambers or gas chamber like cars. The method of killing the
children was to hold a tampon with prussic acid under the nose.<end
quote>
A tampon with prussic acid. It appears this boy had more than a hair
fetish.
mgi...@ix.netcom.com
This is a link to
Issued by the Health Institution of the Protectorate of Bohemia and
Moravia in Prague
Thus, as you knew when you posted it, that it is not the DEGESH
publication and you have only created this message in an attempt to
deceive people. As you fully know I have never denied this document
mentions it nor have I ever falsely claimed as you are doing that the
Degesh publication mentions it.
Why are you doing things like this?
>Now, how much longer will the Giwer-Troll continue to falsely claim that
>"the much vaunted Degesh publication mentions ONLY wood pulp?"
I have posted the Degesh pub. You have read what it says. It is NOT
any directive as you well know. Why would you falsely claim that it is?
If you have found something else, post it.
>[Giwer-Troll drivel snipped]
Couldn't deal with it, obviously.
>> Sorry but the blue color comes from the addition of cobalt chloride and
>> is added when used as a dessicant.
>An interesting claim. Cobalt chloride is used as an absorbent for
>_ammonia_ in dyes and as a catalyst.
What does that have to do with the subject?
>A desiccant, or drying agent, is generally understood to be compound which
>is hydrophillic. To whit:
>drying agent - Soluble or insoluble chemical substance that has such a
>great affinity for water that it will abstract water from a great man y
>fluid materials; soluble chemicals are calcium cholride and glycerol, and
>insoluble chemicals are bauxite and silica gel. Also known as desiccant.
>(_McGraw-Hill Dictionary of chemical terms_, p.143.)
Just what do you think those little packs of silica gel are for?
>> Sorry but the picture posted in this conference of Zyklon B was
>> greyscale and does not support your contention.
>>
>> Sorry but you can not salvage this one.
>Actually, considering that the Giwer-Troll has simply claimed, without
>evidence, that cobalt chloride was added to Zyklon B, and that cobolt
>cloride is used as an absorbant for ammonia, and that silica gel itself is
>a desiccant, I would suggest that is the Giwer-Troll who cannot "salvage
>this one."
Lets see, "an absorbent for ammonia in dyes" means there is no other
use. Or are you claiming you have posted an exhaustive list of all the
uses for it?
In the old days, even the chemistry set for kids had the "experiment" of
soaking a piece of paper in it so that the color change from blue to red
could be seen to depend upon the humidity. That is an example of how
ignorant you are of the subject.
>> >> You also know that the blue color comes from the addition of cobalt
>> >> chloride as a dryness indicator when it is used as a desicant and has no
>> >> other value.
>>
>> >It is interesting to note that cyanides are slowly hydrolysed [to CO3(2)
>> >and NH3]. Perhaps the addition of cobalt chloride, given that it is used
>> >to indicate the presence of moisture, had a purpose after all? Perhaps as
>> >a visual indicator regarding the reliability of the Zyklon B in some
>> >fashion?
>>
>> They were in sealed containers. If water got in, the gas got out. The
>> better indicator would be the dead man who tried getting it from the
>> supply room.
>And does not the air that was sealed in the container have moisture?
That would depend upon manufacturing conditions. If it is as bad as you
would like to imply it would be manufactured so that it were not. In
any event the small amount from humidity would not effect much.
>> >But, of course, this presumes that the blue coloration came from the
>> >addition of cobalt chloride to the silica gel carrier. What actual
>> >evidence does the Giwer-Troll have that indicates that cobalt chloride was
>> >indeed added to the silica gel carrier of Zyklon B? Please be sure to
>> >provide full citations to the source material.
>>
>> Do you not remember the pissed off post from the sci.chem conference?
>> Are you not reading the mail?
>Perhap's the Giwer-Troll would care to repost where it was said that
>cobalt chloride was added to Zyklon B? Perhaps the Giwer-Troll would also
>care to post the manufacturer's confirmation that cobalt chloride was
>added to Zyklon B?
I did not say that at any time. I did say that the coloration of silica
gel comes from the additive when it is used as a dessicant.
Falsely attributing to me things I did not say is something only a troll
would do.
>> I did not say that it was added for Zyklon B. I said silica gel was not
>> used at all according to the Degesh publication. Why can you not
>> recount what I said?
>Becuase the Giwer-Troll is unquestionably wrong in his claim that silca
>gel was not used as a carrier for Zyklon B, as the Degesch manual
>explicity confirms.
The Degesh publication, as you know does not mention it. Nor does the
only other document posted here. But you know that. Perhaps I should
post them again so you can read them for the first time. You obviously
did not read them the last time.
>> I have further pointed out that silica gel is NOT naturally blue but
>> only when an additive for use as a desicant.
>And the Giwer-Trolls evidense for this? Post a photo of unadulterated
>silica gel. Then explain, with factual evidence, how the addition of
>prussic acid and a stabilizer would not give the blue color to Zyklon B
>with an Erco (silica gel) carrier.
You have no evidence that this Erco is silica get. Please post that
first. And I will not play the photo game. The holohugger claims of
having documents and refusing to post them has been going on too long.
>> >[snip]
>>
>> >> But in case you missed the Degesh pub...
>> >>
>> >> Source: Zyklon for Pest Control, Degesch Publication
>>
>> >Full citation please. If this was taken off a website, then please provide
>> >the URL. If this is a publication, please provide the ISBN, LC number,
>> >archive reference, etc..
>>
>> There is a holohugger here who claims to have it. When HE posts it in
>> its entirety I will provide the link. The boy obviously does not want
>> it posted. Rather he wanted to play games with it. That same goes for
>> the claim of actually having the patent.
>Notice that the Giwer-Troll evades posting HIS source for the Degesch
>manual. Why is this? Could it be, perhaps, because the Giwer-Troll has not
>_seen_ the Degesch manual (NI-9912) for himself? Why, that would be...
>dishonest!
I am following the same rules and the holohuggers. It is good for you
realize they have always been dishonest.
So who is he? An expert in the subject? A knowledgeable amateur even?
>> >[snip]
>>
>> >> ...Hydrocyanic acid in the form of ZYKLON can be safely stored for
>> >> considerable periods and under all climatic conditions, any quantity
>> >> of gas can be easily measured, quickly and cleanly released. Any
>> >> residures are completely harmless....
>>
>> >So much for the claim that the spent Zyklon B posed a hazard....
>>
>> After 12 hours, as you read.
>No, after the HCN has evaporated from the carrier. This takes far less
>than 12 hours. It happens in a matter of minutes in the case of a silica
>gel carrier.
But that is not the carrier used for pest control as you know.
>I'm not sure where the 12 hours cited by the Giwer-Troll comes from. The
>Degesch manual (IX The strength of the gas and the time required for it to
>take effect depend on [_Technique_, p.19]) states:
Excuse me but a pharmacist is not an expert or even a knowledgeable
amateur either.
>"...Time needed to take effect: 16 hours, unless there are special
>circumstances such as a closed-in type of building, which requires less
>time. If the weather is warm it is possible to reduce this time to a
>minimum of 6 hours. The period is to be extended to at least 32 hours if
>the temperature is below 5 deg. Cent.
>"The strength and time as above are to be applied in the case of: bugs,
>lice, fleas, etc, with eggs, larves and chrysales.
>"For clothes moths: temperatures above 10 deg. Cent.: 16 g per m3 and 24
>hours to take effect.
>"For flour-moths: same as bugs.
>Please note: "the time required for it to take effect." This is not the
>same as the time required for the HCN to evaporate from the carrier. The
>Degesch manual, as the Giwer-Troll should know, was discussing time in
>regards to the total _fumigation_ time for pest control, not how fast the
>HCN evaporated. In fact, the Degesch manual also stated (X fumigation of a
>building):
But again you are not quoting from the Degesh publication. Looks like I
am going to have to post both for you again so you can read the
difference.
>"8. Open the cans and pour out their contents. The contents are to be
>spread thinly so that the Zyklon can evaporate quickly and the necessary
>density of the gas can be achieved as soon as possible..." (Ibid.)
>
>Please note: "so that the Zyklon can evaporate quickly."
How quick is quickly? This clearly applies to spreading it thinly only.
Thus if not spread thinly it would not by implication.
You will further notice from this
Issued by the Health Institution of the Protectorate of Bohemia and
Moravia in Prague.
That there is no distinction between evaporation and effectiveness
times. However, since there is this
If the weather is warm it is possible to reduce this to a
minimum of 6 hours.
>> >> Composition
You know you are lying about the source of what you are quoting. The
only question is why you are lying about it.
>> >[snip]
>>
>> >>...The tins are opened, and the ZYKLON is scattered so as to reach even the
>> >> remotest parts of the building. If this is done correctly the gas will
>> >develop evenly and instantaneously throughout the premises....
>>
>> >So much the claim that it took a long time for the Zyklon emit a lethal
>> >concentration of HCN gas because it developed slowly....
>>
>> Perhaps but at least we have something more solid to go on than orthodox
>> nonsense.
>Notice that when the Giwer-Troll "cites" the Degesch manual it is done
>with the airs of orthodoxy (even if such "citation" is sheer nonsense),
>but when another _really_ cites the Degesch manual (NI-9912) and show the
>Giwer-Troll to be a puerile liar, he claims that person is citing "
>orthodox nonsense!"
>Methinks the Giwer-Troll is not only a liar but a hypocrite as well.
Again, you are lying about the source material as anyone who goes to the
URL you cite and reads who published the original source material.
>> >Aside from Giwer shooting several pet denier "theories" in the head, what
>> >was Giwer-Troll's point? That Zyklon B pellets of Erco weren't blue? But
>> >as it says right in the DEGESCH manual, they _were_ blue.
>>
>> Where does it say that your source is Degesh?
>Does Giwer understand the meaning of NI-9912 and where it came from? But
>even more interesting, now that Giwer, after HIMSELF "citing" Degesch
>manual (though he NEVER provided a source citation for it) and has been
>shown to be a liar and a hypocrite, has the chutzpah to now "question"
>that that NI-9912 came from Degesch?
>How droll the Giwer-Troll can be!
Again, you reiterate your lie to deceive. Why?
>> >Giwer is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semitic troller whose only
>>
>> Ah, yes. Your favorite true truths are shown to be nonsense and this is
>> the best you can do, copy your idol McVay.
>Indeed. (Though, I must admit, my great respect for Mr. McVay's efforts
>does not extend to idolizing him.) Especially when it IS the truth!
How would you know? You even lie about the document sources.
As the
>Giwer-Troll has once more, ever so helpfully, PROVEN above!
>The Giwer-Troll is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semitic and racist
>troller whose only interest is in slandering Jews and causing fights.
>While he can sometimes sound superficially plausible, he has profusely and
>consistantly lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing
>others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts
>which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have
>been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive
>anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, sexism, and has generally conducted himself
>with such a complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there
>seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. For detailed
>and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
Keith Morrison
mgi...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> Keith Morrison <t0...@unb.ca> wrote:
>
> >mgi...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> >> >Before you go of spouting about chemistry, perhaps you would
> >> >like to inform the audience what "oxidation state" refers to
> >> >when talking about atoms and such?
> >>
> >> Excuse me but your favorite pharamacist was "excused" for not know what
> >> a crystal is. All you are saying is that he is as ignorant as I of
> >> chemisty. Even more so as I have consistantly pointed to the crystal
> >> nonsense.
> >>
> >> So obiously I know more than he does about chemistry as that is so
> >> fundamental.
>
> >What does the term "oxidation state" mean, Mr Giwer?
>
> It is something unnecessary when they could combust bodies with fuel.
What university did you say your alledged BS is from? Someone should
ask them why their science program produced an incompetant blowhard
who must have bribed his profs to pass such as yourself.
--
Keith Morrison
t0...@unb.ca
mgi...@ix.netcom.com
mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <4prb0h$s...@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <4po2f6$r...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgi...@ix.netcom.com
>> >(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>
>> >> mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >BEGIN -- Cut Here -- cut here
>> >> >begin 644 Zyklon B.jpg
>> >>
>> >> Next time ...
>> >>
>> >> 1) Use an underscore instead of a space.
>>
>> >Why? My Mac handles spaces in file names just fine....
>>
>> Anyone believing the Mac has anything to do with the market, including
>> all UNIX variations is an idiot.
>Does the Giwer-Troll really think that the Mac has nothing to do with the
>market? But of course, my reply said nothing about Apple's marketshare but
>that my Mac had no problem with spaces in file names.
>Obviously, the Giwer-Troll has a reading disability and should seek help....
7% MACs vice 93% for PCs for only personal computers. This does not
count work stations of any kind.
As for parsing, spaces were the first delimiters adopted when the first
compilers were developed. You are free to suggest anything but the Mac
that uses spaces as characters rather than delimiters.
>> Beyond that, as spaces have been the fundamental parsing rule since
>> computers were programmed with patch panels (early 1950s) it is quite
>> difficult to believe you are telling the truth.
>If the Giwer-Troll finds it hard to believe that I'm telling the truth
>then I suggest it is merely the Giwer-Troll projecting again. As to some
>"fundemental parsing rule? Please. Does the term "whitespace" ring a bell
>in the Giwer-Troll's belfry? If not perhaps the Giwer-Troll could turn to
>page 55 of K&R.
I no longer have it around.
>The simple truth is that the use (or non-use) of whitespace in file names
>is a _convention_ and is not in any way some restricted by some
>"fundamental parsing rule." The Mac, striving to be more user-friendly,
>simply allows whitespace in file names.
However you are talking about the Mac OS permitted extended file names.
However they are not the stored file names but are rather pointers to
the stored file names. It only applies to pointer list type file names.
>> Are you really claiming
>> the Mac OS knows when and when not to ignore spaces?
>The Giwer-Troll is obviously Mac illiterate....
But not Lisa illiterate. That is why I am very happy to be Mac
illiterate.
>> >> 2) Post a color picture.
>>
>> >The photo was b/w.
>>
>> That does not prove blue any more than the fanciful picture of Jewish
>> women beind shot proved they were either women or Jewish.
>Well then, if the Giwer-Troll wishes to play games, neither does it prove
>that Zyklon B is NOT blue!
>The Giwer-Troll is _such_ a pissant, which reminds me:
>The Giwer-Troll is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semitic and racist
>troller whose only interest is in slandering Jews and causing fights.
>While he can sometimes sound superficially plausible, he has profusely and
>consistantly lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing
>others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts
>which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have
>been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive
>anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, sexism, and has generally conducted himself
>with such a complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there
>seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. For detailed
>and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: With evidence like this ...
From: mgi...@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Miloslav Bilik
mgi...@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>10064...@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>>Silica gel, crystal, aso.. You were answered that silica gel, the
>>common carrier of Zyklon-B, was bluish. Then you played games with
>>some witnesses calling this gel 'crystal', but yourself called the
>>diatomite 'kaolinite', an equally incorrect appellation. It remains
>>that silica gel is bluish. I can post here some photos of genuine
>>silica gel if you want.
> But as you know by now from the Degesh pub that silica gel was not used
>as the carrier, rather either wood pulp.
Zyklon B, C, D , E , F. Guess what was the name with wood pulp ?
> You also know that the blue color comes from the addition of cobalt
>chloride as a dryness indicator when it is used as a desicant and has no
>other value.
>>You certainly never saw Zyklon carried by diatomaceous earth, but
>>decided that only chemical reactions could explain a blue color.
>>Sky is blue and air isn't. Do you want to prove us that the sky is
>>white ?
> It will take much more time than I care to spend to explain Rayleigh
>scattering to you even if you had the background to understand it.
I certainly don't know that cobalt chloride was added as dessicant. I
never heard anything about it and am waiting for your sources. But,
"Dr" Giwer, as you know wat a Rayleigh's effect is, you certainly know
why a genuine silica gel is bluish. Since you're so clever, I will
waste my time to explain you why more recent silica gels are of other
colors.
mgi...@ix.netcom.com
10064...@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>mgi...@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>10064...@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>>>Silica gel, crystal, aso.. You were answered that silica gel, the
>>>common carrier of Zyklon-B, was bluish. Then you played games with
>>>some witnesses calling this gel 'crystal', but yourself called the
>>>diatomite 'kaolinite', an equally incorrect appellation. It remains
>>>that silica gel is bluish. I can post here some photos of genuine
>>>silica gel if you want.
>
>> But as you know by now from the Degesh pub that silica gel was not used
>>as the carrier, rather either wood pulp.
>Zyklon B, C, D , E , F. Guess what was the name with wood pulp ?
Would you care to post your evidence for the existance of those other
letters? Be the first.
Surprise but that is not where the B comes from.
>> You also know that the blue color comes from the addition of cobalt
>>chloride as a dryness indicator when it is used as a desicant and has no
>>other value.
>>>You certainly never saw Zyklon carried by diatomaceous earth, but
>>>decided that only chemical reactions could explain a blue color.
>>>Sky is blue and air isn't. Do you want to prove us that the sky is
>>>white ?
>> It will take much more time than I care to spend to explain Rayleigh
>>scattering to you even if you had the background to understand it.
>I certainly don't know that cobalt chloride was added as dessicant. I
>never heard anything about it and am waiting for your sources. But,
>"Dr" Giwer, as you know wat a Rayleigh's effect is, you certainly know
>why a genuine silica gel is bluish. Since you're so clever, I will
>waste my time to explain you why more recent silica gels are of other
>colors.
I am fully aware of scattering. Now would you like to so me the
equations that will demonstrate that that is the source of the blue
coloring? No? But you must have run them to determine that is the
cause so why will you not post them?
I see, you guessed. Thank you.
Miloslav Bilik
mgi...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>10064...@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>>mgi...@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>> But as you know by now from the Degesh pub that silica gel was not used
>>>as the carrier, rather either wood pulp.
>>Zyklon B, C, D , E , F. Guess what was the name with wood pulp ?
> Would you care to post your evidence for the existance of those other
>letters? Be the first.
You didn't hear nothing about Zyklon C, D, E, F ? It is basic. If you
want to fish, take another lure.
>>I certainly don't know that cobalt chloride was added as dessicant. I
>>never heard anything about it and am waiting for your sources. But,
>>"Dr" Giwer, as you know wat a Rayleigh's effect is, you certainly know
>>why a genuine silica gel is bluish. Since you're so clever, I will
>>waste my time to explain you why more recent silica gels are of other
>>colors.
> I am fully aware of scattering. Now would you like to so me the
>equations that will demonstrate that that is the source of the blue
>coloring? No? But you must have run them to determine that is the
>cause so why will you not post them?
So, are you expecting the Rayleigh's equations or something else ?
mgi...@ix.netcom.com
10064...@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>mgi...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>10064...@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>>>mgi...@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>>> But as you know by now from the Degesh pub that silica gel was not used
>>>>as the carrier, rather either wood pulp.
>>>Zyklon B, C, D , E , F. Guess what was the name with wood pulp ?
>> Would you care to post your evidence for the existance of those other
>>letters? Be the first.
>You didn't hear nothing about Zyklon C, D, E, F ? It is basic. If you
>want to fish, take another lure.
I was looking for both no letter and A actually. Save of course I know
where the B came from. Would you like to talk about the other letters
first?
>>>I certainly don't know that cobalt chloride was added as dessicant. I
>>>never heard anything about it and am waiting for your sources. But,
>>>"Dr" Giwer, as you know wat a Rayleigh's effect is, you certainly know
>>>why a genuine silica gel is bluish. Since you're so clever, I will
>>>waste my time to explain you why more recent silica gels are of other
>>>colors.
>> I am fully aware of scattering. Now would you like to so me the
>>equations that will demonstrate that that is the source of the blue
>>coloring? No? But you must have run them to determine that is the
>>cause so why will you not post them?
>So, are you expecting the Rayleigh's equations or something else ?
If you are presenting Rayleigh scattering as the explanation I cetainly
expect the equations that demonstrate it applies in this case. After
all it is your claim that is the explanation.
If you did not make it up then they did run the equations.
What are you going to claim I have wrong with this?
Miloslav Bilik
>10064...@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>>mgi...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>>10064...@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>>You didn't hear nothing about Zyklon C, D, E, F ? It is basic. If you
>>want to fish, take another lure.
> I was looking for both no letter and A actually. Save of course I know
>where the B came from. Would you like to talk about the other letters
>first?
No. Read something and come later with your wooden pulp. This lure is
too crass.