Edwin: Where Do You Stand On The Bible And Wicca?
Caliban
http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_bibl.htm
I'd like to know how the Christians who lurk and/or post in
Alt.Religion.Wicca feel about their Bible's stand on Witches, or, in
simpler terms, us.
Exodus 22:18
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"
Deuteronomy 18:10-11
"There shall not be found among you anyone ....that useth divination,
or an observer of times, or an enchanter or a witch, or a charmer, or
a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. "
Galatians 5:19-20
Acts of a sinful nature include "adultery, fornication, uncleanness,
lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft..."
So, tell us Edwin, Joe, and any other xians here, where do you stand
on your Bible's instructions regarding many of the witches here?
Caliban
the_ol...@freedom.net
"Caliban" <caliba...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3a4eee01...@news-server.socal.rr.com...
that I utterly and strongly reject the concept of the verbal inerrancy of
the Bible; so I have no problem in regarding specific statements as
reflecting human ignorance and prejudice, rather than divine revelation.
Specific verses such as these have authority for me only if they are
characteristic of the overall values of the whole Bible. This means that I
not only have to ask how a great of weight of passages of this sort are
there in the whole Bible, but in what context do they appear., and what did
they mean to the people who wrote them. For example, do the words witch or
sorcerer mean the same thing to me that the words they translate did to the
writer? And, are there contrary passages which seem to contradict or modify
the apparent meaning of the texts in question. The writers seem to have seen
the persons they were writing about as evil or dangerous; doing visible
harm. Most of those I encounter on the internet who claim labels like witch
for themselves, do not seem to me to be evil dangerous, or doing any
apparent harm. At worst, I would score the regulars on ARW as delightful
naughty. If some of you were going for genuinely evil, I'm sorry, I just
don't see it.
I regard the Bible as "inspired by God" in the sense that the writers were
motivated to write by an experience of the divine; just as an artist might
be inspired by watching a beautiful sunset to paint a picture of it. The
experience of seeing the beauty of the sunset may inspire the artist to the
limits of his or her technical ability in that particular painting; but if
the artist is a lousy painter to begin with, the result will, at best merely
be the least lousy of a collection of lousy paintings.
Also such a painter is probably not so much painting the sunset as his or
her experience of seeing the sunset. I read the Bible as a collection of
writings by people who felt that they had experienced something out of the
ordinary, which gave their lives new meaning and value, which gave them a
sense of wholeness and hope, and who wanted to share what they had
experienced with others. They were for the most part, quite ordinary people
with ordinary abilities to comprehend and to express what had happened to
them. They were of a people with a storytelling heritage, so they
communicated by telling stories. These stories are subjective and limited to
their understanding of their experience, and hampered by the limits in their
ability to express themselves, and by our lack of knowledge about the
culture in which they lived.
Joe
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Shadow Dancer
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Thank you for sharing this, Joe. What a delightfully "earthy" attitude!
Oh...and happy new Milennium to you :)
--
Love, Light, and Brightest Blessings,
The Shadow Dancer
http://communities.msn.com/EnclaveBlackRoseCommunity
Mind the new, improved spamtrap.
~Trifle not in the affairs of dragons, for you, too, are crispy with catsup~
Caliban
How would you say this position would sit with the Fundamentalists, or
the Xian Right?
>
>
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> Total Internet Privacy -- get your Freedom Nym at
http://www.freedom.net
>
>
--
"Conan, what is best in life?
- To defeat your enemies
- To see them driven before you
- To hear the lamentation of their women"
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Sah'aquiel
since converted to Wicca.
All I want to say is that I think Christ was really quite a great guy.
That bible, however, is a different story altogether. Face it - witches are
powerful, and so people fear their power and hence them. What better to get
rid of a fear of a powerful being than proclaiming a more powerful being
(god) is on your side against them?
I've always stood by my claim that Christ is probably slapping his forehead
looking at the stuff people have done in his name. Seems to me like Christ
himself was a magician of sorts, and people feared his power so crucified
him. If there is going to be a second coming I think it should be soon,
there are a lot of things in the bible and in folklore that he'd want to set
straight.
Hey, I'm telling you what god thinks - can i get more arrogant?
Sah'aquiel
<the_ol...@freedom.net> wrote in message
news:t4va8qs...@corp.supernews.com...
>
the_ol...@freedom.net
"Caliban" <caliba...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:92p3o5$b2m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
As a general rule they dismiss me as not a "true" Christian, and I dismiss
them as superstitious twits.Strangely though, there have been a few ultra
dedicated, extremely evangelical fundys, with whom I have worked closely on
projects, who consider me "misguided and confused", but have been able to
accept me as sincere and we have enjoyed working together. This coufuses the
hell out of me and the other fundys. I have never seen any evidence, by the
way of the Xian rught being either Christian or right!
Joe
Joe
the_ol...@freedom.net
"Sah'aquiel" <a...@mbox.com.au> wrote in message
news:VNU36.168599$e5.1...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> I was brought up christian and still hold some beliefs, although I have
> since converted to Wicca.
> All I want to say is that I think Christ was really quite a great guy.
> That bible, however, is a different story altogether. Face it - witches
are
> powerful, and so people fear their power and hence them. What better to
get
> rid of a fear of a powerful being than proclaiming a more powerful being
> (god) is on your side against them?
> I've always stood by my claim that Christ is probably slapping his
forehead
> looking at the stuff people have done in his name. Seems to me like Christ
> himself was a magician of sorts, and people feared his power so crucified
> him. If there is going to be a second coming I think it should be soon,
> there are a lot of things in the bible and in folklore that he'd want to
set
> straight.
> Hey, I'm telling you what god thinks - can i get more arrogant?
>
> Sah'aquiel
You could ask Talesin to give you lessons....
Joe
Edwin
That's all Old Testament stuff. It was meant to set up the Jews as God's
special people and to prepare the way for Christ. Most of those things no
longer apply, just as Christians should say "forgive us our trespasses as we
forgive those who trespass against us," rather than the older "an eye for an
eye, and a tooth for a tooth."
I would stay away from calling on spirits and other gods, but I may
eventually decide some forms of magic are okay. Herbs, candles, aroma
therapy, and visualization for instance.
Galatians is New Testament, but it doesn't contain any instructions to harm
Witches. Calling on any other spirits or other gods has always been
considered a sin in the Bible, so if that's what witchcraft means, it's
considered a sin. The New Testament also tells us to forgive the sins of
others.
Edwin
> Caliban
>
Sah'aquiel
my arrogance. And you don't want to. I'm trying to keep it in, but don't
push it...
Sah'aquiel
<the_ol...@freedom.net> wrote in message
news:t50ajml...@corp.supernews.com...
Sean MacUisdin
> > the Xian Right?
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> As a general rule they dismiss me as not a "true" Christian, and I dismiss
> them as superstitious twits.Strangely though, there have been a few ultra
> dedicated, extremely evangelical fundys, with whom I have worked closely on
LOL - Wow, that's a familiar tune in the pagan community as well. Who'd
a thunk it?
--
Air muir 's air tir,
Sean of Clan Uisdin
-------------------
If anyone is looking for Sean of Clan Uisdin, he can be found in the
bathtub mulling over his thoughts wi' a dram o' Glen Ord.
Remove 'mac' to reply.
... The heroes of the race of Conn are dead,
How bitter to our hearts is the grief for them!
We shall not live long after them,
Perilous we think it to be bereaved of the brotherhood!
Cathal MacMhuirich
"Well, I'm sick of this room and everyone in it!" - Bender
"Everything's gone wrong since Canada came along!" - MAC (Mothers
against Canada)
BirdTribe
Edwin wrote:
Calling on any other spirits or other gods has always been
> considered a sin in the Bible, so if that's what witchcraft means, it's
> considered a sin. The New Testament also tells us to forgive the sins of
> others.
What a prevaricating loop of horseshit. First you are a sinner/heretic
and then we don't care, but first you gotta have a load of guilt before
we don't care.. Doesn't that seem a tad ridiculous? Not that I care..
Being booga booga to maladjusted xian fools is always good for a chuckle.
BirdTribe
>
> Edwin
>
> > Caliban
> >
--
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"BirdTribe" <bt20...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3A50BC0A...@mindspring.com...
>
>
> Edwin wrote:
> Calling on any other spirits or other gods has always been
> > considered a sin in the Bible, so if that's what witchcraft means, it's
> > considered a sin. The New Testament also tells us to forgive the sins of
> > others.
>
>
> What a prevaricating loop of horseshit. First you are a sinner/heretic
> and then we don't care, but first you gotta have a load of guilt before
> we don't care.. Doesn't that seem a tad ridiculous? Not that I care..
> Being booga booga to maladjusted xian fools is always good for a chuckle.
>
> BirdTribe
I am unfamiliar with the term "booga booga". I presume from this post that
it's something like a horses ass.
Joe
>
> >
> > Edwin
> >
> > > Caliban
> > >
>
> --
> * Clowns, by their very nature, are attracted to any number of absurd
> realities *
> Artworks, games, keys - visit http://www.birdtribe.net/
> your.domain.com and 50Mb, CGI and PHP, PostGreSQL
> and Linux Turbine Generator only $100.00 per year with
> no hidden fees - http://www.mosthost.net
________________________________________________________________________
BirdTribe
the_ol...@freedom.net wrote:
>
> "BirdTribe" <bt20...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:3A50BC0A...@mindspring.com...
> >
> >
> > Edwin wrote:
> > Calling on any other spirits or other gods has always been
> > > considered a sin in the Bible, so if that's what witchcraft means, it's
> > > considered a sin. The New Testament also tells us to forgive the sins of
> > > others.
> >
> >
> > What a prevaricating loop of horseshit. First you are a sinner/heretic
> > and then we don't care, but first you gotta have a load of guilt before
> > we don't care.. Doesn't that seem a tad ridiculous? Not that I care..
> > Being booga booga to maladjusted xian fools is always good for a chuckle.
> >
> > BirdTribe
>
> I am unfamiliar with the term "booga booga".
Look at it like the beta version of the Boogie man.. Kinda like
BoogieMan 0.9b
> I presume from this post that
> it's something like a horses ass.
Yer parsing ain't up to par.. Do you always segment and discard to grasp
the intuitive meaning of pasquinades you disagree with?
Yer Pal
BirdTribe
Caliban
What does your pastor think about the fact that you don't consider the
Bible to be the infallible, divinely-inspired word of god?
>
> I would stay away from calling on spirits and other gods, but I may
> eventually decide some forms of magic are okay. Herbs, candles,
aroma
> therapy, and visualization for instance.
So you believe that you may interpret the scriptures as you see fit,
discarding what you don't like, and adopting what you do.
>
> Galatians is New Testament, but it doesn't contain any instructions
to harm
> Witches. Calling on any other spirits or other gods has always been
> considered a sin in the Bible, so if that's what witchcraft means,
it's
> considered a sin. The New Testament also tells us to forgive the sins
of
> others.
So, in your very liberal interpretation of your own Bible, witches who
use herbs are OK, but witches who work with spirits or deities are
going to hell? Or, to make it more clear, in the xian god's eyes, it's
OK for Edwin to dabble in witchcraft as long as its limited to herbs
and candles, but if Edwin invokes a spirit guide, he's a sinner?
If this is so, Edwin, and you're a sinner, what are your consequences
as a xian sinner? You're still going to heaven, right? So really, what
do you care? If you're going to dabble in witchcraft, you might as well
go whole-hog, don't you think?
Caliban
>
> Edwin
>
> > Caliban
Edwin
Hash: SHA1
On Mon, 01 Jan 2001 12:19:15 -0500, BirdTribe <bt20...@mindspring.com>
wrote:
>
>
>Edwin wrote:
> Calling on any other spirits or other gods has always been
>> considered a sin in the Bible, so if that's what witchcraft means, it's
>> considered a sin. The New Testament also tells us to forgive the sins of
>> others.
>
>
>What a prevaricating loop of horseshit. First you are a sinner/heretic
>and then we don't care, but first you gotta have a load of guilt before
>we don't care.. Doesn't that seem a tad ridiculous?
It sure does. But it's also nothing said by me. You also completely
removed the answer from the context it was given in, namely "should witches
be killed?"
> Not that I care..
You answered to show you don't care? Uh-huh, right.
>Being booga booga to maladjusted xian fools is always good for a chuckle.
And you're the perfect picture of a well-adjusted person? You must be
trying for ironic effect.
Stroke your ego all you want. You still come off as a sad, silly little
man. Being "booga booga" must mean being an object of pity.
I see your posts now because I'm trying a new news reader. It reaffirms
my reasons to kill-file you. You're just an egotist with a vulgar mouth.
It may come as a shock to you, but the world doesn't revolve around you and
your opinions, and the disapproval of BirdTribe takes nothing from anyone
or anything.
Enjoy your new Millennium.
Edwin
>BirdTribe
>
>>
>> Edwin
>>
>> > Caliban
>> >
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Edwin
wrote:
>
>
>the_ol...@freedom.net wrote:
>>
>> "BirdTribe" <bt20...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>> news:3A50BC0A...@mindspring.com...
>> >
>> >
>> > Edwin wrote:
>> > Calling on any other spirits or other gods has always been
>> > > considered a sin in the Bible, so if that's what witchcraft means, it's
>> > > considered a sin. The New Testament also tells us to forgive the sins of
>> > > others.
>> >
>> >
>> > What a prevaricating loop of horseshit. First you are a sinner/heretic
>> > and then we don't care, but first you gotta have a load of guilt before
>> > we don't care.. Doesn't that seem a tad ridiculous? Not that I care..
>> > Being booga booga to maladjusted xian fools is always good for a chuckle.
>> >
>> > BirdTribe
>>
>> I am unfamiliar with the term "booga booga".
>
>Look at it like the beta version of the Boogie man.. Kinda like
>BoogieMan 0.9b
Nah, the BT version is defined in the next sentence.
>> I presume from this post that
>> it's something like a horses ass.
>
>Yer parsing ain't up to par.. Do you always segment and discard to grasp
>the intuitive meaning of pasquinades you disagree with?
This from the man who segmented and discarded most of my post to create
something to disagree with?
>Yer Pal
>BirdTribe
Who's "pal" are you BT? The irony in your posts is incredible. :-P
>>
>> Joe
>> >
>> > >
>> > > Edwin
>> > >
>> > > > Caliban
[snip]
BirdTribe
Edwin wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Mon, 01 Jan 2001 12:19:15 -0500, BirdTribe <bt20...@mindspring.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Edwin wrote:
> > Calling on any other spirits or other gods has always been
> >> considered a sin in the Bible, so if that's what witchcraft means, it's
> >> considered a sin. The New Testament also tells us to forgive the sins of
> >> others.
> >
> >
> >What a prevaricating loop of horseshit. First you are a sinner/heretic
> >and then we don't care, but first you gotta have a load of guilt before
> >we don't care.. Doesn't that seem a tad ridiculous?
>
> It sure does. But it's also nothing said by me. You also completely
> removed the answer from the context it was given in, namely "should witches
> be killed?"
It was entirely in context. See Calibans post for a more erudite
exposition and question about this loop.
>
> > Not that I care..
>
> You answered to show you don't care? Uh-huh, right.
Only enough to tweak your ass who waltzed in here trying to pick up
pagan chicks cause they are easy and proceeded to virtually disrobe a 14
year old poster.
>
> >Being booga booga to maladjusted xian fools is always good for a chuckle.
>
> And you're the perfect picture of a well-adjusted person? You must be
> trying for ironic effect.
I am not "normal" by any stretch of anyones imagination. I am quite well
adjusted to my mutanthood and reactions to it.
>
> Stroke your ego all you want. You still come off as a sad, silly little
> man.
Nice try.. I'll give it a -2 on a scale of one to ten. I have enough
going on for real that I do not need an ego stroking. I rock the house
and that is all there is to it.
> Being "booga booga" must mean being an object of pity.
Yer a lousy parser.
>
> I see your posts now because I'm trying a new news reader. It reaffirms
> my reasons to kill-file you.
Yeah.. Because you are a chickenshit xian who came in here professing to
be interested in Wicca and you have been shown to be what you are. One
of little faith cruising the pagan groups of which you are not part of
the community trolling for sex partners and cyberjerk sessions. You have
probably killfiled more REAL information from me than you could learn in
an entire career of Sunday schooling.
You're just an egotist with a vulgar mouth.
I am BirdTribe.. Slayer of prevaricating halfwit trolls.
> It may come as a shock to you, but the world doesn't revolve around you and
> your opinions, and the disapproval of BirdTribe takes nothing from anyone
> or anything.
It doesn't come as a shock. I have known this since the age of three.
Since you have such an opinion I guess it will have to be crammed down
your throat so you can enjoy the stench of your own regurgitation. You
are a sidewinding, jot and tittering dualistic ignoramus and don't
belong here. Go troll alt.christnet for sex pal.
>
> Enjoy your new Millennium.
It has been fine so far. I intend to stomp mudholes in a few more of
your hypocritical asses as well. Killfile me chickenshit. When I speak
the truth about you you won't know to lie in your defense.
Yer Pal
BirdTribe
>
> Edwin
>
> >BirdTribe
> >
> >>
> >> Edwin
> >>
> >> > Caliban
> >> >
>
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--
BirdTribe
Edwin wrote:
>
> On Mon, 01 Jan 2001 14:17:02 -0500, BirdTribe <bt20...@mindspring.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >the_ol...@freedom.net wrote:
> >>
> >> "BirdTribe" <bt20...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> >> news:3A50BC0A...@mindspring.com...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Edwin wrote:
> >> > Calling on any other spirits or other gods has always been
> >> > > considered a sin in the Bible, so if that's what witchcraft means, it's
> >> > > considered a sin. The New Testament also tells us to forgive the sins of
> >> > > others.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > What a prevaricating loop of horseshit. First you are a sinner/heretic
> >> > and then we don't care, but first you gotta have a load of guilt before
> >> > we don't care.. Doesn't that seem a tad ridiculous? Not that I care..
> >> > Being booga booga to maladjusted xian fools is always good for a chuckle.
> >> >
> >> > BirdTribe
> >>
> >> I am unfamiliar with the term "booga booga".
> >
> >Look at it like the beta version of the Boogie man.. Kinda like
> >BoogieMan 0.9b
>
> Nah, the BT version is defined in the next sentence.
Exactly what I said.. I am now the booga booga to a xian.. You have
proved my assertion faster than most abderitic simpletons around here
could. Kudos moron..
>
> >> I presume from this post that
> >> it's something like a horses ass.
> >
> >Yer parsing ain't up to par.. Do you always segment and discard to grasp
> >the intuitive meaning of pasquinades you disagree with?
>
> This from the man who segmented and discarded most of my post to create
> something to disagree with?
I clipped nothing. You are caterwauling like a wounded banshee about nn events.
>
> >Yer Pal
> >BirdTribe
>
> Who's "pal" are you BT? The irony in your posts is incredible. :-P
Most people around here. You wouldn't know though because you have been
in a state of somnambulism since your arrival.
HTH
BirdTribe
>
> >>
> >> Joe
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > Edwin
> >> > >
> >> > > > Caliban
> [snip]
Relayer
> > What a prevaricating loop of horseshit. First you are a sinner/heretic
> > and then we don't care, but first you gotta have a load of guilt before
> > we don't care.. Doesn't that seem a tad ridiculous? Not that I care..
> > Being booga booga to maladjusted xian fools is always good for a
chuckle.
> >
> > BirdTribe
>
> I am unfamiliar with the term "booga booga". I presume from this post that
> it's something like a horses ass.
You would be quite forgiven if you got the impression from usenet that Wicca
involves being a horse's arse. In fact, it is entirely optional but it seems
pointless to point this out to the equine buttocks here. BT is right, it is
good for a chuckle sometimes...
Relayer.
the_ol...@freedom.net
Sure. It makes life much simplier.
Joe
the_ol...@freedom.net
"Relayer" <rel...@dreamtheater.zzn.com> wrote in message
news:5r646.1$wq7....@news.interact.net.au...
Birdtribe was.
Joe
BirdTribe
> Sure. It makes life much _simplier_.
;)
BirdTribe
BirdTribe
the_ol...@freedom.net wrote:
>
> "Relayer" <rel...@dreamtheater.zzn.com> wrote in message
> news:5r646.1$wq7....@news.interact.net.au...
> > > >
> > > > What a prevaricating loop of horseshit. First you are a sinner/heretic
> > > > and then we don't care, but first you gotta have a load of guilt
> before
> > > > we don't care.. Doesn't that seem a tad ridiculous? Not that I care..
> > > > Being booga booga to maladjusted xian fools is always good for a
> > chuckle.
> > > >
> > > > BirdTribe
> > >
> > > I am unfamiliar with the term "booga booga". I presume from this post
> that
> > > it's something like a horses ass.
> >
> > You would be quite forgiven if you got the impression from usenet that
> Wicca
> > involves being a horse's arse. In fact, it is entirely optional but it
> seems
> > pointless to point this out to the equine buttocks here. BT is right, it
> is
> > good for a chuckle sometimes...
> >
> > Relayer.
> >
> >
> >
> I wasn't implying that Wicca was a horse's ass; I was observing that
> Birdtribe was.
Impossible.
Yer Pal
BirdTribe
>
> Joe
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Total Internet Privacy -- get your Freedom Nym at http://www.freedom.net
--
the_ol...@freedom.net
(Olphardt polishes his bifocals and takes another careful look)
"Well dogone if he ain't right; imagine me mistaking a mule for a horse,
even from this angle,"
Joe
rela...@my-deja.com
> > > > Being booga booga to maladjusted xian fools is always good for a
> > chuckle.
> > > >
> > > > BirdTribe
> > >
> > > I am unfamiliar with the term "booga booga". I presume from this
post
> that
> > > it's something like a horses ass.
> >
> > You would be quite forgiven if you got the impression from usenet
that
> Wicca
> > involves being a horse's arse. In fact, it is entirely optional but
it
> seems
> > pointless to point this out to the equine buttocks here. BT is
right, it
> is
> > good for a chuckle sometimes...
> >
> > Relayer.
> >
> >
> >
> I wasn't implying that Wicca was a horse's ass; I was observing that
> Birdtribe was.
>
> Joe
...Or playing at it at any rate. BT isn't as foolish as he sometimes
appears. Or maybe he sometimes appears less foolish than he really is.
Oh shit, I've gone and gotten myself all confused...
R.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
> Total Internet Privacy -- get your Freedom Nym at
http://www.freedom.net
>
>
BirdTribe
You are correct on both counts. It depends on the subject..Joe knows
anyways.. We have a mutual poke and prod gag shtick going on.. He
collects flames here to troll alt.christnet with..LOL..
>
> Oh shit, I've gone and gotten myself all confused...
Straight ahead is forward. Behind is reverse. To the left is ..well..
your left etc..:)
Yer Pal
BirdTribe
>
> R.
> >
> >
> ________________________________________________________________________
> > Total Internet Privacy -- get your Freedom Nym at
> http://www.freedom.net
> >
> >
>
> Sent via Deja.com
> http://www.deja.com/
--
Rhyanon
awweee.........
"Caliban" <caliba...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:92qlre$cd2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Edwin
What did I say that gave that indication? When I get a pastor I'll ask him
to comment on my opinions. In the meantime you can ask whoever you turn to
for spiritual guidance what they think of your tendency to jump to
conclusions.
> > I would stay away from calling on spirits and other gods, but I may
> > eventually decide some forms of magic are okay. Herbs, candles,
> aroma
> > therapy, and visualization for instance.
>
> So you believe that you may interpret the scriptures as you see fit,
> discarding what you don't like, and adopting what you do.
What did I say that leads you to that conclusion?
> > Galatians is New Testament, but it doesn't contain any instructions
> to harm
> > Witches. Calling on any other spirits or other gods has always been
> > considered a sin in the Bible, so if that's what witchcraft means,
> it's
> > considered a sin. The New Testament also tells us to forgive the sins
> of
> > others.
>
> So, in your very liberal interpretation of your own Bible,
It's not "my own Bible" I didn't write it, and it's was written for
everyone, even if they don't choose to accept it.
> witches who
> use herbs are OK, but witches who work with spirits or deities are
> going to hell?
It's not up to me to decide who is going to Hell.
> Or, to make it more clear, in the xian god's eyes, it's
> OK for Edwin to dabble in witchcraft as long as its limited to herbs
I'm not sure on this yet.
> and candles, but if Edwin invokes a spirit guide, he's a sinner?
If my interpretation of the Bible is correct.
> If this is so, Edwin, and you're a sinner, what are your consequences
> as a xian sinner?
To repent and have faith in my Saviour.
You're still going to heaven, right?
If I trust to Jesus.
>So really, what do you care?
I care about doing right, even though I frequently fail in actually doing
right. ;-)
> If you're going to dabble in witchcraft, you might as well
> go whole-hog, don't you think?
If I'm going to go wading, I might as well dive in head-first, without
bothering to check how deep the water is, or if there are any rocks on the
bottom?
Edwin
[snip]
kerr...@my-deja.com
the_ol...@freedom.net wrote:
>
> "Caliban" <caliba...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:3a4eee01...@news-server.socal.rr.com...
> > I'm using information for this post taken from the following site:
> > http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_bibl.htm
> >
> > I'd like to know how the Christians who lurk and/or post in
> > Alt.Religion.Wicca feel about their Bible's stand on Witches, or, in
> > simpler terms, us.
> >
> > Exodus 22:18
> > "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"
> >
> > Deuteronomy 18:10-11
> > "There shall not be found among you anyone ....that useth
divination,
> > or an observer of times, or an enchanter or a witch, or a charmer,
or
> > a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. "
> >
> > Galatians 5:19-20
> > Acts of a sinful nature include "adultery, fornication, uncleanness,
> > lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft..."
> >
> > So, tell us Edwin, Joe, and any other xians here, where do you stand
> > on your Bible's instructions regarding many of the witches here?
> >
I liked your response, Joe. There were many writers in
the bible and they were all inspired differently.
Even interpreters of the bible, intrepretted what they
thought was correct. It is a book, from the past.
We can take from it what we wish, ...use what we wish.
Our time is now, we make our own truths, as they did then.
:)
Kerry
>
________________________________________________________________________
> Total Internet Privacy -- get your Freedom Nym at
http://www.freedom.net
>
>
Sean MacUisdin
>
> Not everyone's the zealot fundie hypocrite you are calibum.....
> awweee.........
who satisfy their hopeless incapabilities of parenting by dry humping
newsgroups.
Caliban
Well, when you said "that's old testament stuff..., it doesn't apply",
that tells me that you don't believe in the entire Bible as being
infallible or divinely inspired. If you did, you'd follow his Word,
wouldn't you? Most xians that I've met would, and do.
When I get a pastor I'll ask him
> to comment on my opinions.
So you're a Xian without a pastor? No wonder you're flirting with
witchcraft. You're beginning to break away ever so slightly without
that constant haranging.
In the meantime you can ask whoever you turn to
> for spiritual guidance what they think of your tendency to jump to
> conclusions.
>
> > > I would stay away from calling on spirits and other gods, but I
may
> > > eventually decide some forms of magic are okay. Herbs, candles,
> > aroma
> > > therapy, and visualization for instance.
> >
> > So you believe that you may interpret the scriptures as you see fit,
> > discarding what you don't like, and adopting what you do.
>
> What did I say that leads you to that conclusion?
You selectively chose things that you believe are OK, out of a group of
things which the Bible advises you to stay away from. Therefore, you
have placed your own opinions above the divinely inspired word of God.
>
> > > Galatians is New Testament, but it doesn't contain any
instructions
> > to harm
> > > Witches. Calling on any other spirits or other gods has always
been
> > > considered a sin in the Bible, so if that's what witchcraft means,
> > it's
> > > considered a sin. The New Testament also tells us to forgive the
sins
> > of
> > > others.
> >
> > So, in your very liberal interpretation of your own Bible,
>
> It's not "my own Bible" I didn't write it, and it's was written for
> everyone, even if they don't choose to accept it.
You've adopted it, even if you didn't give birth to it.
>
> > witches who
> > use herbs are OK, but witches who work with spirits or deities are
> > going to hell?
>
> It's not up to me to decide who is going to Hell.
That's what your Bible says, isn't it. And that's what your xian
ministers say, don't they. And you follow the bible, as well as your
minister (when you had one), don't you?
>
> > Or, to make it more clear, in the xian god's eyes, it's
> > OK for Edwin to dabble in witchcraft as long as its limited to herbs
>
> I'm not sure on this yet.
I'm not surprised. You're on shaky, xian ground here.
>
> > and candles, but if Edwin invokes a spirit guide, he's a sinner?
>
> If my interpretation of the Bible is correct.
>
> > If this is so, Edwin, and you're a sinner, what are your
consequences
> > as a xian sinner?
>
> To repent and have faith in my Saviour.
>
> You're still going to heaven, right?
>
> If I trust to Jesus.
>
> >So really, what do you care?
>
> I care about doing right, even though I frequently fail in actually
doing
> right. ;-)
>
> > If you're going to dabble in witchcraft, you might as well
> > go whole-hog, don't you think?
>
> If I'm going to go wading, I might as well dive in head-first, without
> bothering to check how deep the water is, or if there are any rocks
on the
> bottom?
Point taken. Many xians begin the process of leaving xianity behind as
they embrace older pagan religions, a little bit at a time, just like
you're doing.
Caliban
>
> Edwin
>
> [snip]
Edwin
No, I said "Most of those things no longer apply," as in it's history. It's
been superceded by the New Testament.
> that tells me that you don't believe in the entire Bible as being
> infallible or divinely inspired.
Then you have reached a faulty conclusion.
>If you did, you'd follow his Word,
> wouldn't you?
Yes, all of it, in context of the whole. I don't celebrate Passover or
refrain from eating pork. Why not? Because those things have been
superceded by the New Testament.
> Most xians that I've met would, and do.
Good for them. So do I.
>
> When I get a pastor I'll ask him
> > to comment on my opinions.
>
> So you're a Xian without a pastor? No wonder you're flirting with
> witchcraft.
*shrug* I'm "flirting" with Buddhism and Zoroastism too. It's part of
having an open mind. Christians can have them too, your prejudice
notwithstanding.
>You're beginning to break away ever so slightly without
> that constant haranging.
I don't think I've actually "broken away" from anything yet.
> In the meantime you can ask whoever you turn to
> > for spiritual guidance what they think of your tendency to jump to
> > conclusions.
> >
> > > > I would stay away from calling on spirits and other gods, but I
> may
> > > > eventually decide some forms of magic are okay. Herbs, candles,
> > > aroma
> > > > therapy, and visualization for instance.
> > >
> > > So you believe that you may interpret the scriptures as you see fit,
> > > discarding what you don't like, and adopting what you do.
> >
> > What did I say that leads you to that conclusion?
>
> You selectively chose things that you believe are OK, out of a group of
> things which the Bible advises you to stay away from.
The Bible has no warnings against herbs, candles, or positive self imagery.
I invite you to point them out, if they exist.
> Therefore, you
> have placed your own opinions above the divinely inspired word of God.
In what way?
> >
> > > > Galatians is New Testament, but it doesn't contain any
> instructions
> > > to harm
> > > > Witches. Calling on any other spirits or other gods has always
> been
> > > > considered a sin in the Bible, so if that's what witchcraft means,
> > > it's
> > > > considered a sin. The New Testament also tells us to forgive the
> sins
> > > of
> > > > others.
> > >
> > > So, in your very liberal interpretation of your own Bible,
> >
> > It's not "my own Bible" I didn't write it, and it's was written for
> > everyone, even if they don't choose to accept it.
>
> You've adopted it, even if you didn't give birth to it.
My point stands. It's not "my Bible" it's "our Bible." It's yours too,
even if you don't want it. It is a gift to all Mankind.
> > > witches who
>
> > > use herbs are OK, but witches who work with spirits or deities are
> > > going to hell?
> >
> > It's not up to me to decide who is going to Hell.
>
> That's what your Bible says, isn't it. And that's what your xian
> ministers say, don't they. And you follow the bible, as well as your
> minister (when you had one), don't you?
The Bible lists many types of sins, and gives us a way to redeem ourselves,
through Christ. It's not up to me or even a pastor to decide who's going to
Hell. He warns according to what his interpretation of Scripture is, but
he doesn't actually condemn anyone to Hell.
> > > Or, to make it more clear, in the xian god's eyes, it's
> > > OK for Edwin to dabble in witchcraft as long as its limited to herbs
> >
> > I'm not sure on this yet.
>
> I'm not surprised. You're on shaky, xian ground here.
I haven't seen any warnings about particular forms of magick. If they mean
worshipping other than God and Christ, they may be okay.
> > > and candles, but if Edwin invokes a spirit guide, he's a sinner?
> >
> > If my interpretation of the Bible is correct.
> >
> > > If this is so, Edwin, and you're a sinner, what are your
> consequences
> > > as a xian sinner?
> >
> > To repent and have faith in my Savior.
> >
> > You're still going to heaven, right?
> >
> > If I trust to Jesus.
> >
> > >So really, what do you care?
> >
> > I care about doing right, even though I frequently fail in actually
> doing
> > right. ;-)
> >
> > > If you're going to dabble in witchcraft, you might as well
> > > go whole-hog, don't you think?
> >
> > If I'm going to go wading, I might as well dive in head-first, without
> > bothering to check how deep the water is, or if there are any rocks
> on the
> > bottom?
>
> Point taken. Many xians begin the process of leaving xianity behind as
> they embrace older pagan religions, a little bit at a time, just like
> you're doing.
I don't know that I'm leaving Christianity behind or embracing a pagan
religion. I'm just curious so far.
[snip]
Edwin
Caliban
nothing but your mind. And all magick is a sin according to your god's
book, your prevaricating statements aside. You're a sinner, Edwin. Come
on in and join the party with the rest of us sinners. It all starts
with you burning a single candle. Then you've opened the door, and your
innocence will be lost, as will the protection that your innocence
provides. At that point, you either will need to learn what the fuck
you're doing, or stand by for invasion of the spirit snatchers.
Bwahahahahahaha
Caliban
lilly...@my-deja.com
Sean MacUisdin <sean.ma...@home.com> wrote:
> Rhyanon wrote:
> >
> > Not everyone's the zealot fundie hypocrite you are calibum.....
> > awweee.........
>
> Exactly - some, like cuzanne here, are simply online whiny un-mothers
> who satisfy their hopeless incapabilities of parenting by dry humping
> newsgroups.
OUCH! That burned! :)
~L
> --
> Air muir 's air tir,
>
> Sean of Clan Uisdin
> -------------------
> If anyone is looking for Sean of Clan Uisdin, he can be found in the
> bathtub mulling over his thoughts wi' a dram o' Glen Ord.
>
> Remove 'mac' to reply.
>
> ... The heroes of the race of Conn are dead,
> How bitter to our hearts is the grief for them!
> We shall not live long after them,
> Perilous we think it to be bereaved of the brotherhood!
>
> Cathal MacMhuirich
>
> "Well, I'm sick of this room and everyone in it!" - Bender
>
> "Everything's gone wrong since Canada came along!" - MAC (Mothers
> against Canada)
>
--
Eastward sat the crone in the Ironwood, who farrowed there,
the brood of Fenrir, of their get shall be seen, a certain one...
He shall glut his maw with the flesh of men, and bloody with the gore...
Dark grows the sun, storms rage in summer, weather's a widdershins.
rela...@my-deja.com
Oh, good. Well... play nice...
> >
> > Oh shit, I've gone and gotten myself all confused...
>
> Straight ahead is forward. Behind is reverse. To the left is ..well..
> your left etc..:)
>
Gotcha!
R.
Edwin
Hmm.... I see you've abandoned following the discussion, and snipped it all
out. I can only guess that the questions were too difficult for you to
answer.
> Magick is magick, Edwin. Whether you use candles, gemstones, herbs, or
> nothing but your mind.
Which is something altogether different from talking to the spirits of the
dead or praying to other gods.
> And all magick is a sin according to your god's
> book,
What I listed above is a sin according to our God's book. He's your God
too, even if you won't acknowledge Him.
>your prevaricating statements aside. You're a sinner, Edwin.
Yes I am. We are all sinners, it's just a question of how, not if.
>Come
> on in and join the party with the rest of us sinners. It all starts
> with you burning a single candle. Then you've opened the door, and your
> innocence will be lost,
My innocence was lost a long time ago. ;-)
as will the protection that your innocence
> provides. At that point, you either will need to learn what the fuck
> you're doing, or stand by for invasion of the spirit snatchers.
> Bwahahahahahaha
:-)
BirdTribe
Edwin wrote:
>
> "Caliban" <caliba...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:92uja2$fbm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> Hmm.... I see you've abandoned following the discussion, and snipped it all
> out. I can only guess that the questions were too difficult for you to
> answer.
>
> > Magick is magick, Edwin. Whether you use candles, gemstones, herbs, or
> > nothing but your mind.
>
> Which is something altogether different from talking to the spirits of the
> dead or praying to other gods.
That is a bunch of boobocratic boodle. I can guarantee that your
anthropomorphic alpha simian is not anything like the higher math engine
I perceive as the enigma behind the transmutational processes of The
Universe. Your vision of godhead is nowhere near mine and I sincerely
doubt Caliban thinks your anthropomorphic alpha simian has many
qualities he would ascribe to godhead.
BirdTribe
>
> > And all magick is a sin according to your god's
> > book,
>
> What I listed above is a sin according to our God's book. He's your God
> too, even if you won't acknowledge Him.
>
> >your prevaricating statements aside. You're a sinner, Edwin.
>
> Yes I am. We are all sinners, it's just a question of how, not if.
>
> >Come
> > on in and join the party with the rest of us sinners. It all starts
> > with you burning a single candle. Then you've opened the door, and your
> > innocence will be lost,
>
> My innocence was lost a long time ago. ;-)
>
> as will the protection that your innocence
> > provides. At that point, you either will need to learn what the fuck
> > you're doing, or stand by for invasion of the spirit snatchers.
> > Bwahahahahahaha
>
> :-)
>
> > Caliban
> >
> >
> > Sent via Deja.com
> > http://www.deja.com/
--
Relayer
>
>
> Edwin wrote:
> >
> > "Caliban" <caliba...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> > news:92uja2$fbm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> >
> > Hmm.... I see you've abandoned following the discussion, and snipped it
all
> > out. I can only guess that the questions were too difficult for you to
> > answer.
> >
> > > Magick is magick, Edwin. Whether you use candles, gemstones, herbs, or
> > > nothing but your mind.
> >
> > Which is something altogether different from talking to the spirits of
the
> > dead or praying to other gods.
>
> That is a bunch of boobocratic boodle. I can guarantee that your
> anthropomorphic alpha simian is not anything like the higher math engine
> I perceive as the enigma behind the transmutational processes of The
> Universe. Your vision of godhead is nowhere near mine and I sincerely
> doubt Caliban thinks your anthropomorphic alpha simian has many
> qualities he would ascribe to godhead.
>
> BirdTribe
Anthropomorphic alpha simian... that's pretty good, BT. I'll have to
remember that one.
I'll tale your higher math engine and raise you one "That which can be
spoken of is not the eternal Tao." ;o)
R.
caliba...@yahoo.com
wrote:
>
>"Caliban" <caliba...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>news:92uja2$fbm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
>Hmm.... I see you've abandoned following the discussion, and snipped it all
>out. I can only guess that the questions were too difficult for you to
>answer.
Not at all. Merely snipped them for brevity. Actually, I started a new
thread called 'Safe Magick is an illusion" partly with you in mind.
Caliban
kerr...@my-deja.com
Caliban <caliba...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Magick is magick, Edwin. Whether you use candles, gemstones, herbs, or
> nothing but your mind. And all magick is a sin according to your god's
> book, your prevaricating statements aside. You're a sinner, Edwin.
Come
> on in and join the party with the rest of us sinners. It all starts
> with you burning a single candle. Then you've opened the door, and
your
> innocence will be lost, as will the protection that your innocence
> provides. At that point, you either will need to learn what the fuck
> you're doing, or stand by for invasion of the spirit snatchers.
Is that similar to the body snatchers? LOL!
:)
Kerry
kerr...@my-deja.com
"Edwin" <varma_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> "Caliban" <caliba...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:92uja2$fbm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> Hmm.... I see you've abandoned following the discussion, and snipped
it all
> out. I can only guess that the questions were too difficult for you
to
> answer.
>
> > Magick is magick, Edwin. Whether you use candles, gemstones, herbs,
or
> > nothing but your mind.
>
> Which is something altogether different from talking to the spirits
of the
> dead or praying to other gods.
Edwin, I disagree. Even as I grew up a Christian, I felt the
presences of God and Angels and what even seemed to be more.
To me it was magick. God was magick, ...even as a youngster
who knew nothing but the Bible and Jesus's teachings.
Any Christian who has felt the love of God, has felt magick,
imho. :) And the magick felt then is no different, only intensified
in what I feel now. I am aware, and thus they give. :)
Kerry
Rhyanon
to put it in....
"Sean MacUisdin" <sean.ma...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3A520E88...@home.com...
Rhyanon
<lilly...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:92ukai$frj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> OUCH! That burned! :)
Sean MacUisdin
>
> Oh, no wonder you can't get frigid cuntwife pregnant -- you don't know how
> to put it in....
Rhyanon
"Sean MacUisdin" <sean.ma...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3A54C890...@home.com...
Sean MacUisdin
>
> No scry needed, dickcicle. You admitted it yourself.
I'd love to see your proof, un-mother.