[Q] On the Rede of Chivalry
Vievenege
I am wondering about a passage from "Morgan's Book of Shadows"
(http://www.witchs-brew.com/shadows/), more precisely in the Laws and
Rules section (http://www.witchs-brew.com/shadows/chivalry.html) which
reads like this:
Though there may be differences between those of the Old
Ways, those who are once-born must see nothing, and must hear
nothing.
It is taken from "Ed Fitch - Magickal Rites from the Crystal Well", so I
am guessing that it is relatively a well-known principle.
My question is: Is this related to the secrecy oath one takes when
entering a coven? In this context are the "once-born"'s people from
outside the coven (i.e. they have not been reborn through wicca)?
Or does this limit the acquisition of any wicca knowledge to those who
are "many-born", i.e. who have gone through at least one reincarnation?
If this is the case, how is one supposed to know if one has a
reincarnated soul?
Is it not always the case that one has a reincarnated soul? I am
unfamiliar with a reincarnation theory outside hindouism/boudhism, for
which any human would not have a completely new soul... I think that at
the bottom, one would be given an animal soul?
Thank you in advance for any advice,
-- Vievenege
cthulhu
It seems in this instance that the part you quoted specifically defines the
conduct for disputes. It goes along with the idea of intimate coven
business: the dirty laundry shouldn't be aired publicly, but taken care of
within the coven itself.
Hope I'm being of some help and not just totally confusing.
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> My question is: Is this related to the secrecy oath one takes when
> entering a coven? In this context are the "once-born"'s people from
> outside the coven (i.e. they have not been reborn through wicca)?
It is indeed related to that concept, but only among those Trads which
follow that ideal. "Reborn," by the way, is *not* the same thing as
"born again:" the rituals are very, very different.... Please note
that all Wiccan Trads do not use the "reborn" imagery in this fashion,
however. In many modern Trads, the symbols simply do not apply.
> Or does this limit the acquisition of any wicca knowledge to those who
> are "many-born", i.e. who have gone through at least one reincarnation?
> If this is the case, how is one supposed to know if one has a
> reincarnated soul?
Good question. Presumably, if one can undergo past-life regression
successfully it might offer what could be considered prima facie
evidence that one is in one's present life a reincarnate. Also, I
understand that some psychics can tell pretty much at a glance whether
one is a reincarnate or not. I generally try to avoid the question, as
it sometimes leads to an "old soul" - "new soul" dichotomy which, as has
been pointed out in a different context, seems occasionally to be used
as an excuse for psychological manipulation among practitioners of the
"occult."
<snip>
Blessed be,
Baird
--
Modkin for soc.religion.paganism,
Modstaff for alt.religion.wicca.moderated
Visit me at <http://newstaffinc.com/stafford>
cthulhu
ideas of reincarnation or not, so bear with me if this seems to be a repeat
of earlier info.
In some of the earlier Wiccan thought, there appears a belief in two types
of souls: mortal and immortal. All mortal souls have the opportunity to
become immortal ones...i.e., by the teachings of the Craft, one may attain
the blessings of the gods and be able to reincarnate to love and worship
them again. Without this knowledge and gift, the "once-borns" (i.e., mortal
souls -- a.k.a. cowans) slowly dissipate after death, eventually
disappearing entirely. "Twice-borns" are those who have become immortal
souls (i.e, by the older beliefs, they are Witches).
The passage you refer to is one that simply indicates that non-Witches are
not to be allowed to witness the rites of the Craft. I.e., they shouldn't
be present at Circle. More contemporary thought allows them to attend
Sabbats, but limits the more intimate workings of the coven to its members
only (with an occasional guest).
Rowan
>....
>Is it not always the case that one has a reincarnated soul?
I think that we don't reincarnate cross-species. As such I think we *can't*
all have reincarnated souls, since the number of people alive is higher than
it ever has been, and is still going up.
>I am
>unfamiliar with a reincarnation theory outside hindouism/boudhism, for
>which any human would not have a completely new soul... I think that at
>the bottom, one would be given an animal soul?
>..
Possible. But I've never discovered any way to tell : )
BB
Rowan
Gem
vi...@concordia.com (Vievenege) wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am wondering about a passage from "Morgan's Book of Shadows"
> (http://www.witchs-brew.com/shadows/), more precisely in the Laws and
> Rules section (http://www.witchs-brew.com/shadows/chivalry.html) which
> reads like this:
>
> Though there may be differences between those of the Old
> Ways, those who are once-born must see nothing,
and must hear
> nothing.
>
> It is taken from "Ed Fitch - Magickal Rites from the Crystal Well", so
I
> am guessing that it is relatively a well-known principle.
>
> entering a coven? In this context are the "once-born"'s people from
> outside the coven (i.e. they have not been reborn through wicca)?
I believe the once-born reference refers to those who are not initiated
wiccans, rather than referring to someone who has not been incarnated
multiple times.
>
> Or does this limit the acquisition of any wicca knowledge to those who
> are "many-born", i.e. who have gone through at least one
reincarnation?
> If this is the case, how is one supposed to know if one has a
> reincarnated soul?
One does have a reincarnated soul. Souls are eternal. They have been
since time began. It's TIME that is the essence of the question. Time
is a sense, not a dimension. It does not necessarily flow linearly. If
you think of this in terms of computer networks, you can follow the
analogy of a computer server, sending out packets of time bursts. Your
"past" lives may not have been lived in chronological order. Your
"future" life may not be lived in a timeframe "after" this one. In this
way, some older souls who contributed to great advancements in evolution
and progress may have had "past" lives from a time that has not yet
occurred.
I think Ed Fitch's passage referred to those who had not been initiated
into wicca, and probably wiccan mysteries, because to tell them the
secrets would only cause them to turn against you and distress them,
possibly to a point they could not withstand. It is sometimes unkind to
tell people things they are not ready to hear.
Blessings,
Gem
--
Live a little, love a lot, beat the clock that
time forgot. Turn a cheek and rub a wrong, look
me up to hear my song.
http://www.drivezero.com/herbal/
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Vievenege
> One does have a reincarnated soul. Souls are eternal. They have been
> since time began. It's TIME that is the essence of the question. Time
> is a sense, not a dimension. It does not necessarily flow linearly. If
> you think of this in terms of computer networks, you can follow the
> analogy of a computer server, sending out packets of time bursts. Your
> "past" lives may not have been lived in chronological order. Your
> "future" life may not be lived in a timeframe "after" this one. In this
> way, some older souls who contributed to great advancements in evolution
> and progress may have had "past" lives from a time that has not yet
> occurred.
As Rowan mentionned just before you, I also was thinking that the number
of people who have lived could, very well, be less than the number of
people alive now. Non-linear time makes things smoother, as there is no
need for a continuous creation of new souls.
Also earlier, "cthulhu" wrote that '"Twice-borns" are those who have
become immortal souls (i.e, by the older beliefs, they are Witches).'
Has this notion become archaic in wicca theology in general?
Regards,
-- Vievenege
Vievenege
> > If this is the case, how is one supposed to know if one has a
> > reincarnated soul?
>
> successfully it might offer what could be considered prima facie
> evidence that one is in one's present life a reincarnate. Also, I
> understand that some psychics can tell pretty much at a glance whether
> one is a reincarnate or not. I generally try to avoid the question, as
> it sometimes leads to an "old soul" - "new soul" dichotomy which, as has
> been pointed out in a different context, seems occasionally to be used
> as an excuse for psychological manipulation among practitioners of the
> "occult."
Would someone who has interest in wicca necessarily want to learn about
one's past lives? Certainly, in the old tradition, but what about today?
If so, it sounds like one would need the help of others, whether they
are hyptotists (for past-life regression?), or psychics.
Is it possible to learn about this by yourself, in a way similar to the
self-initiations and the general solitary practice of wicca? That sounds
really hard to me: I can imagine many ways that my imagination could
trick me, if I just sit down and try to think of whatever impression
comes to me... Maybe it is one of those skills that come with practice:
more concentration, more ordered thoughts?
Regards,
-- Vievenege
cthulhu
early 1990's. I do know, however, that it was one of the older teachings
that wasn't talked about too often (if at all) with non-Witches -- it was
deemed something that really wouldn't help our public image.
I'd guess, though this is more opinion than anything else, that the reaon it
seems to be archaic, so to speak, was simply because it wasn't public
knowledge (i.e., most of the new generation Witches gained much of their
teachings from published works and then had to study non-Wiccan sources to
further their understanding).
This has been a double-edged blade. Helpful on the one hand because it
brought many fresh ideas and perspectives into the Craft. Baneful on the
other because some of the older traditions of Craft lore haven't been too
well-preserved and almost seem to be on the verge of extinction.
Vievenege wrote in message
<99Sep21.122802...@jane.cs.toronto.edu>...
<snip>
>
>Also earlier, "cthulhu" wrote that '"Twice-borns" are those who have
>become immortal souls (i.e, by the older beliefs, they are Witches).'
>Has this notion become archaic in wicca theology in general?
>
>Regards,
>-- Vievenege
<snip>
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> Would someone who has interest in wicca necessarily want to learn about
> one's past lives? Certainly, in the old tradition, but what about today?
Speaking for myself and only for myself I'd have to say, "Not in the
least." One of the things I like most about Wicca as I understand it is
that the religion seems to concern itself more with this world than the
next (or the previous, come to that). I have been told by people who
are said by others to know about such things that "I" have been around
for a long, long time - but that and fifty cents buys me a morning
paper. Mostly I pay no attention to the idea; I've no wish to waste
time with pissing contests over who's the "older soul."
<snip>
> Is it possible to learn about this by yourself, in a way similar to the
> self-initiations and the general solitary practice of wicca? That sounds
> really hard to me: I can imagine many ways that my imagination could
> trick me, if I just sit down and try to think of whatever impression
> comes to me...
Aye, there's the rub.... (The discerning reader will note at once, of
course, that the quotation is NOT from the Scottish play!) That is one
very good reason why I've never concerned myself overmuch with the
question: either I have had lots of past lives or I have not. My
primary concern is with getting through *this* life as easily as
possible while causing as little damage as possible to others around me,
and to my general surroundings.
Greenbanks
vi...@concordia.com (Vievenege) writes:
> I also was thinking that the number
>of people who have lived could, very well, be less than the number of
>people alive now. Non-linear time makes things smoother, as there is no
>need for a continuous creation of new souls.
Or.... there could be more souls than there have ever been (existing at one
time) bodies to hold them... and as the human population increases, more souls
are able to "live" on earth at the same time. Perhaps this would make it more
likely that you could meet a soul you've known before.
M'Lou
reply to Green...@aol.com
Robin R.
currently empty. NMP(not my problem), really.
BB Robin
--
"There's a Time and a Place for everything...and this is neither!"
N`osal Woodbender
I get closer and closer every day for health reasons. Damn the sausage
and cheese anyway.) But as the worlds human population gets bigger, the
population of animals on the planet gets smaller. Might there not be
some reason for an argument for animal spirituality on that basis. We
all know the earths' ecosystem is under constant attack by the current
super predators. (Humans) How can you feel a tree cry out in pain, or
make a request of a tree with out accepting the spirituality of the
object. There are energy fields around every living thing.
cthulhu
Okay...here's another thought. What if the soul and the body are the same?
LOL... Well, not *exactly* the same..... More along the lines of the soul
being based on the material aspects of the body...an etheric pattern
associated with the physical process of memory, presonality, and mental
activity.
Ginger-lyn Summer
off" and experience multiple physical incarnations at the same or during
overlapping times. I read this in one of Dick Sutphen's books many years ago.
Interesting idea, I think.
Greenbanks wrote:
> In article <99Sep21.122802...@jane.cs.toronto.edu>,
> vi...@concordia.com (Vievenege) writes:
>
> > I also was thinking that the number
> >of people who have lived could, very well, be less than the number of
> >people alive now. Non-linear time makes things smoother, as there is no
> >need for a continuous creation of new souls.
>
> Or.... there could be more souls than there have ever been (existing at one
> time) bodies to hold them... and as the human population increases, more souls
> are able to "live" on earth at the same time. Perhaps this would make it more
> likely that you could meet a soul you've known before.
> M'Lou
> reply to Green...@aol.com
--
Home Page: http://www.spiritrealm.com/summer/
Gem
That could happen if our consciousness is software and it "reads" the
geometry of the DNA. Then without the hardware, there is no software.
This, of course, is why there's a Great Big Hard Drive up on Mount
Olympus, with copies of all the software backed up up there.
Then when the body dies, ZAP, Zeus just orders some faerie to snap out
the Master File and write the software onto a New, Celestial Body while
it's waiting to get the call for a new round.
See? It's all explainable.
Love and smiles,
Gem
>
--
Live a little, love a lot, beat the clock that
time forgot. Turn a cheek and rub a wrong, look
me up to hear my song.
http://www.drivezero.com/herbal/
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
cthulhu
Gem wrote in message <7sef4v$1bf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
Robin R.
Gee, gotta love that Occam's Razor! :)
BB Robin
Gem wrote:
> That could happen if our consciousness is software and it "reads" the
> geometry of the DNA. Then without the hardware, there is no software.
>
> This, of course, is why there's a Great Big Hard Drive up on Mount
> Olympus, with copies of all the software backed up up there.
>
> Then when the body dies, ZAP, Zeus just orders some faerie to snap out
> the Master File and write the software onto a New, Celestial Body while
> it's waiting to get the call for a new round.
>
> See? It's all explainable.
>
> Love and smiles,
> Gem
>
> >
--
viev...@hotmail.com
I have been away for a few weeks, working to make a deadline, so I have
missed most of what went on. But I am still around and just wanted to
say hi, and thank everybody who has been patient enough to answer my
beginner's questions as well as tell them that I am not forgetting them
(and, in fact, I am looking forward to formulating tougher questions!)
I very much enjoy reading this newsgroup!
My regards,
Vievenege
viev...@hotmail.com