Religion in public schools
Shadowdancer
I will try to keep it short as it has gotten very long and complicated
over the past week. My daughter attends public school here in Oregon
where she is in 4th grade. We are Pagan; my daughter has my support in
not saying the Pledge of Alligience or not participate in any other
activites she may not be comfortable with due to our religion. Last
week she came home from school to tell me that they sang the "Children
of the Lord (Arky Arky)" song in music class and it made her
uncomfortable. I called and spoke with her teacher and asked that my
daughter be excused from any further music classes during which
they'll be singing religious songs. I also spoke to the principal who
infomed me it is quite allowable for the music teacher to sing
religious songs as long as he wasn't endorsing any religion and he
claimed he was in fact singing the song for the "two by two" portion
of the song to teach the kids to use the recorder. He told another
offended parent that he has been singing that song for 10 years and
each year 5 or 6 families complain but since it's allowed he is going
to continue to use the song. He did tell her that they only use the
one religious song and they only sing it once. I called the school
district who backed up what the principal said. I also left a message
with out local ACLU to find out if what I am hearing from the school
is accurate. Today (5 days later) my daughter comes home telling me
that they sang the song again and she was afraid to get in trouble if
she asked to be excused. The music teacher made the comment that he
learned about the boble in college and thought they should learn
something about the bible too. I have printed off the words to the
"Children of the Lord" song and "The Ants Go Marching" as an
alternative for them to use. I have also printed off misc things from
the ACLU website and highlighted pertinent passages regarding
Separation of Church and State and Religion in Public Schools. I am
showing up at the principals door tomorrow after again calling the
school district and ACLU again. So here is my appeal: Am I out of
line? Do you think this is acceptable in a public school? What other
suggestions/books/websites/periodicals can you think of I can utilize
to fight this? AAAGGGHHH I am just frustrated as my daughter has
already been singled out on the playground and given a hard time about
our religious beliefs. Can anyone help?
Gwynyth
> So here is my appeal: Am I out of
> line? Do you think this is acceptable in a public school? What other
> suggestions/books/websites/periodicals can you think of I can utilize
> to fight this? AAAGGGHHH I am just frustrated as my daughter has
> already been singled out on the playground and given a hard time about
> our religious beliefs. Can anyone help?
First, I don't think the occaisional song drawing from a given religion
is a huge problem - especially if it does not require someone to express
any beliefs from that religion (such as singing an Ave Maria or a Mass
setting might). I also think that a responsible school system is going
to need to talk about religion (in a literary and historical context) at
various points. More on this in a second.
*However*, it also sounds like the school is not really thinking this
through carefully. This is not a place where the religious content is
necessary, and using a different song to achieve the same goals should
be quite acceptable.
You say that your daughter has already had a hard time - from other
students? From teachers? Quite honestly, that's the place I'd probably
be looking first. Would you be as concerned by the singing of a song
which draws from another religion's mythology/sacred text if your faith
were being consistently treated with respect? The answer to that
question should, I think, suggest where you might want to focus your
efforts.
Back to my first topic.
I do think it's important for students to understand the role that
various religions have played in literature, history, and music. And, in
Western culture, that's going to mean quite a bit of time spent talking
about Christianity - you can't really talk about the Middle Ages, the
Reformation, and so on without understanding some of the basics of
Christianity. You can't really understand literary works like the
Scarlet Letter, the Crucible, and other works without at least some
background about the religious beliefs. It's also quite possible to have
students who don't know that material miss out on references and
background that may be more subtly important to literary works.
Likewise, a huge portion of Western music history comes from religious
music - both formal things like Mass settings, as well as things like
gospel music. There's certainly other material out there - but a teacher
who taught only secular music in a class covering music history would
have huge gaping holes (J.S. Bach for example)
These things probably don't matter a whole lot in 4th grade - but
they're going to start being more of an issue as your daughter gets
older. Demanding that the school not include *any* religious material
would both damage your own daughter's education, but also negatively
affect other students. That strikes me as a bad idea all round. (This
stuff *does* turn up on standardised tests such as the SATII subject
exams, as well, never mind being prepared for college coursework)
Finding some solution where these things can be taught in appropriate
settings (i.e. literary and historical context) and individual
exceptions are made and respected for any specific more involved
instances might be the best way to go.
For what it's worth, I went through most of my schooling in a public
school. We covered religion in appropriate ways. Yes, most of my
classmates were Christian (and most Catholic, actually) but my teachers
managed to cover material in a way that was acceptable to two of my
close friends, one of whom was Jewish (Reform, I believe) and one of
whom was Hindu. That was because it was done in a historical context, or
in a context of "This is really amazing music and I want you to know
what it's like to sing this famous/well known piece so that you can
recognise it and talk about intelligently later in your life"
I now work in a secular private high school. I've been watching the 9th
grade classes with some amusement, because they've had a sequence of 3
assignments dealing with religion and religious stories - one to analyse
and learn about a Biblical story (both Old and New Testaments were used)
, one assignment to learn about a deity or mythological figure from
Greek mythology, and one to learn about arts and sciences in the
historical Islamic world, and how the Islamic world nutured and
developed those skills and knowledges at various points in time.
This school doesn't require any religion classes, but does offer a very
popular comparative religions elective course - popular, I think,
because both students and parents think its in their interest to make
sure the students have broad exposure to religious information as long
as it's fairly provided.
Gwynyth * gwy...@polyamory.org * http://www.polyamory.org/~gwynyth
Voxwoman
60's and 70's. The school had a chorus (not choir, because "choir"
implied church), and I don't know where, but I learned a lot of
"Christian" songs - could be in the context of the chorus, or of other
music classes. I remember a lot of the songs from the Civil War (except
for the catchy "Goober Peas") had religious overtones, probably because
the soldiers were trying to gain the help of YHVH to smite the other side.
This is one of those "pick your battles" moments, IMHO. I remember not
being particularly uncomfortable singing these songs (I also just
remembered a solo I was chosen for for the winter performance in 4th
grade - it was the 2nd or 3rd verse of the Xmas carol version of
"Greensleeves" - and I was happy to sing it, because I like to sing)
I guess during those times, people were more concerned with integrating
the schools rather than making sure all students felt included and
"comfortable". (and, as an aside, I lived and went to High School in the
school district portrayed in "Remember the Titans" and I remember
NOTHING like the protests and fights going on at that time. I think they
took some liberties with history. I remember rioting in the city
-Washington - but it didn't come out to the 'burbs where we were).
Instead of asking to remove songs, maybe you can request to ADD some
songs - perhaps "Fur and feather and scale and skin"? or another song
about nature or about some other "pro-pagan" topic. It doesn't have to
be religious in tone, either.
the Jewish (reform) sect that I was raised in took great pains to give
us comparative religious training, because the adults know we are living
as a minority, and the key to tolerance is information. I also suspect
they taught us these things so we could withstand the onslaught of
prosetlyzation (sp?) from the Christians as we grew up.
What are you planning to do when your child studies art history? Or have
you forgotten that most of Western art was created for "religious"
purposes (never mind the fact that many mistresses of rich men were the
models for all the "Madonna and Child" paintings, lol. Ahh, the excuses
for showing a bared breast.)
Perhaps it's time you teach your child comparative religions at home, so
she knows what's up.
I also think your principal is being just a tad insensitive to your
needs and that of your child. However, your child is going to need a
thick skin as she gets older and approaches the age where conformity to
the group becomes more important socially than grades.
It took over 150 years for the school systems to recognize the Jewish
Holidays (and that only in areas with LARGE Jewish populations, like New
York - I know that, for example, Yom Kippur was not a day off from
school in some Florida school systems - but it is a school holiday
here). I don't know the fighting that had to go on to get that, but I
will venture to say that the Pagan community is not organized enough to
get that kind of recognition in time to be of any benefit to our
children. Maybe THEIR children will get Ostara and Samhain (among
others) as official school holidays, but I don't see it coming soon.
For you, if you can find other families willing to protest this stuff
along with you, your case will be stronger. If it was me, I'd try to get
some other material added to the music curriculum or wait and see if it
gets worse. I would hesitate to get branded as a pain in the butt or a
kook by the school's administrative staff. Are you active in the PTA?
that route may be the best for you. Show the principal that you are
willing to spend time volunteering at the school and helping make all
the students' experiences better, and he may be more willing to listen
to your concerns. He will also get a chance to know you better, and
realize that you're niether a pain in the butt nor a kook. I'm sure he
gets a lot of parents that just show up at his office to complain about
something, and not a whole lot who are willing to do stuff. One of the
reasons our school here is so good is that we have a very active PTA.
This helps energize the teachers and the administrators and the results
are a good class environment for the children, which is what this is all
about, anyway.
Also, if this stuff is REALLY bugging you, consider running for a spot
on the school board. That's where many of the decisions are made about
such things, and also where grassroots political movements start - at
the local level.
My best wishes for you and your child,
Wendy of NJ
Paul Hume
> line? Do you think this is acceptable in a public school?
For my money, yes. Excuse your child if you like, but don't dictate
the curriculum. Religious music forms an enormous proportion of
musical literature. It isn't that you cannot sufficiently censor the
literature (written, musical, visual, etc.) but that you should not.
If the teacher snipes at your daughter, aggressively seek to have him
reprimanded for that.
It sucks that your daughter has been singled out on the playground.
Was it for publicly declaring her religion?
Paul
Alan Young
Shadowdancer <shadow...@spiritmail.zzn.com> wrote:
> My daughter attends public school here in Oregon
> where she is in 4th grade. [snip] Last
> week she came home from school to tell me that they sang the "Children
> of the Lord (Arky Arky)" song in music class and it made her
> uncomfortable. I called and spoke with her teacher and asked that my
> daughter be excused from any further music classes during which
> they'll be singing religious songs. I also spoke to the principal who
> infomed me it is quite allowable for the music teacher to sing
> religious songs as long as he wasn't endorsing any religion
First, I want to support the very level-headed response offered by
Voxwoman. Show support for the school in areas where you can, and then
choose your battles.
I would have to agree with what the principal said here, although how
it's implemented might still be an issue.
I have actually *taught* choir in public school, and had to prepare a
Christmas concert. Naturally, a lot of the songs are religious. I chose
to avoid songs that embody religious *doctrine* (Jesus the Lord) but
include all kinds of religious *imagery,* Pagan as well as Xian. (I
don't remember now what PAgan text we used, but "Deck the Halls" or
"The Holly and the Ivy" or any of the traditional Wassail songs might
do).
Inevitably, one of the high-school kids who fancied herself a Witch
objected to the religious nature of the program. I didn't tell her that
I was a Witch as well. I said that religious music has always been a
major part of musical culture, and you can't study music without
learning something about religious music. I pointed out that none of
the songs we were singing were preaching a particular doctrine, and
that several religions, including Paganism, wer represented in our
program. She saw it my way, and agreed to participate, along with the
two Jewish kids and the atheist plurality. ;-)
Music should be fun. I would work with my daughter to help her figure
out how to be comfortable singing about unfamiliar ideas. I don't think
"Children of the Lord" is a hostile idea; many Wiccans call themselves
"Chidren of the Lord and Lady" (isn't there a song about that, too?),
and if the Xians have forgotten the Lady, that's their loss.
Many blessings,
--
Hummingbear
http://www.hummingbear.net/~aayoung/
I dreamed of a life that was pure and true
I dreamed of a job only I could do...
---Monk's Dream
Songweaver
Shadowdancer <shadow...@spiritmail.zzn.com> wrote in message
news:274b8f48.0210...@posting.google.com...
> I could use any wisdom or suggestions that any of you have about this.
> I will try to keep it short as it has gotten very long and complicated
> over the past week. My daughter attends public school here in Oregon
> where she is in 4th grade. We are Pagan; my daughter has my support in
> not saying the Pledge of Alligience or not participate in any other
> activites she may not be comfortable with due to our religion. Last
> week she came home from school to tell me that they sang the "Children
> of the Lord (Arky Arky)" song in music class and it made her
> uncomfortable. I called and spoke with her teacher and asked that my
> daughter be excused from any further music classes during which
> they'll be singing religious songs. I also spoke to the principal who
> infomed me it is quite allowable for the music teacher to sing
> religious songs as long as he wasn't endorsing any religion and he
> claimed he was in fact singing the song for the "two by two" portion
> of the song to teach the kids to use the recorder. He told another
> offended parent that he has been singing that song for 10 years and
> each year 5 or 6 families complain but since it's allowed he is going
> to continue to use the song. He did tell her that they only use the
> one religious song and they only sing it once. I called the school
> district who backed up what the principal said. I also left a message
> with out local ACLU to find out if what I am hearing from the school
> is accurate.
Okay, this to me sounds like other parents have complained about the use
of a religious song, and this teacher has just disregarded their
complaints. Red flag #1 has just gone up in my mind. The principal and
school district know about this and won't address it. Red flag #2.
Would give me something to watch. I still would have let this slide if
it was only used the once. My kids are Jewish and my daughter attends
a nonsectarian private school (my son is in a public secondary school
right now but also attended a nonsectarian private school for his
elementary years), and any complaints from the parents are taken quite
seriously, to the point that a proposed merger with another small
private school was called off because of perceived possible problems
regarding religion.
> Today (5 days later) my daughter comes home telling me
> that they sang the song again and she was afraid to get in trouble if
> she asked to be excused. The music teacher made the comment that he
> learned about the boble in college and thought they should learn
> something about the bible too. I have printed off the words to the
> "Children of the Lord" song and "The Ants Go Marching" as an
> alternative for them to use. I have also printed off misc things from
> the ACLU website and highlighted pertinent passages regarding
> Separation of Church and State and Religion in Public Schools. I am
> showing up at the principals door tomorrow after again calling the
> school district and ACLU again. So here is my appeal: Am I out of
> line? Do you think this is acceptable in a public school? What other
> suggestions/books/websites/periodicals can you think of I can utilize
> to fight this? AAAGGGHHH I am just frustrated as my daughter has
> already been singled out on the playground and given a hard time about
> our religious beliefs. Can anyone help?
Okay, here's where the problem is. The music teacher has decided that
he's going to push his religion on the students. Big mistake. This
opens up the door for other action. At this point, I'd start asking for
advice. See what the ACLU has to say about these new developments.
That teacher has no right to be teaching the Bible in a public school;
the only exception I make is for classes in comparative religions where
a basic knowledge of the Bible is required.
Since it appears to me, just based on the info you've given, that this
teacher isn't going to limit his teaching to music and will start
preaching the Bible, it's time to go do something about it.
Blessings,
Songweaver
Gale
<snip>He told another
> offended parent that he has been singing that song for 10 years and
> each year 5 or 6 families complain but since it's allowed he is going
Noting the red flag Songweaver pointed out. Were it not for that big red
flag -- five or six families complain every year!?! -- I would be
inclined to give it a "no big deal." Religion is a major part of
culture; I talk about religion in the classroom all the time -- not my
religion nor my students' religion, but all the images of life, death,
purpose, and explicit religious allusion which fill good pieces of
literature to overflowing. However, a constant stream of complaints does
look *very* suspicious. Is the man subtly attempting to undermine
biology class by offering an (inaccurate*) account of Noah's flood?
*I say inaccurate, noting that the "two by two" notion is at odds with
the account found in the Jewish and Xian bibles ---> the biblical
account alludes to seven pair of each of the "clean" animals and one
pair of each of the "unclean" animals (which answers the question of
what Noah and his family ate and fed to the carnivores for 40 days).
--
Blessed Be,
Gale
original fiction, poetry, Tarot at
http://www.capstonebeads.com/Magick.html
modstaff alt.religion.wicca.moderated: http://arwm.net
Fenris
gwy...@polyamory.org (Gwynyth) wrote:
> Likewise, a huge portion of Western music history comes from religious
> music - both formal things like Mass settings, as well as things like
> gospel music. There's certainly other material out there - but a teacher
> who taught only secular music in a class covering music history would
> have huge gaping holes (J.S. Bach for example)
I would like to ad the perspective that "secular" song may be as deeply
inspired and powerful as anything classified as "liturgical."
Best wishes,
Terry
--
To e-mail, replace Fenris with ttowne1 and empty mind with mindpspring.
Alan Young
<ttowne1-0310...@sdn-ap-006caburbp0415.dialsprint.net>, Fenris
<tto...@emptymind.com> wrote:
> In article <1fjgq55.16ykdf7fquac6N%gwy...@polyamory.org>,
> gwy...@polyamory.org (Gwynyth) wrote:
>
> > Likewise, a huge portion of Western music history comes from religious
> > music - both formal things like Mass settings, as well as things like
> > gospel music. There's certainly other material out there - but a teacher
> > who taught only secular music in a class covering music history would
> > have huge gaping holes (J.S. Bach for example)
>
> I would like to ad the perspective that "secular" song may be as deeply
> inspired and powerful as anything classified as "liturgical."
I don't think the current controversy is about what is most inspired,
it's about what's most culturally appropriate for children to learn in
school. Actually, you'd be hard-pressed to find "deeply inspired" music
that could be communicated effectively to 4th-graders (the situation in
the original post), who are just a few years past nursery rhymes.
Shadowdancer
> Shadowdancer wrote:
> <snip>He told another
> > offended parent that he has been singing that song for 10 years and
> > each year 5 or 6 families complain but since it's allowed he is going
> > to continue to use the song. <snip>
>
> Noting the red flag Songweaver pointed out. Were it not for that big red
> flag -- five or six families complain every year!?! -- I would be
> inclined to give it a "no big deal." Religion is a major part of
> culture; I talk about religion in the classroom all the time -- not my
> religion nor my students' religion, but all the images of life, death,
> purpose, and explicit religious allusion which fill good pieces of
> literature to overflowing. However, a constant stream of complaints does
> look *very* suspicious. Is the man subtly attempting to undermine
> biology class by offering an (inaccurate*) account of Noah's flood?
*****Well if he thinks he can slip little comments in on the side
about the bible and sing Sunday School songs every week he is sadly
mistaken. I understand the need to reference religion at some points
in the education process but unless one is in a private religious
school there is no need to do it that often. My request is that is
there is a viable non-religious alternative then it should be used and
he doesn't seem to want to pay attention to that. I guess we'll
see...*****
>
> *I say inaccurate, noting that the "two by two" notion is at odds with
> the account found in the Jewish and Xian bibles ---> the biblical
> account alludes to seven pair of each of the "clean" animals and one
> pair of each of the "unclean" animals (which answers the question of
> what Noah and his family ate and fed to the carnivores for 40 days).
*****Not knowing much about the bible I have no idea what is accurate
or not but you bring up another point....I bet if relious education
were allowed in public schools there would be just as many parents
upset about inaccuracy as there would be about it being taught in the
first place. Maybe we just can't win? :-) *****
Fenris
> > I would like to add the perspective that "secular" song may be as deeply
> > inspired and powerful as anything classified as "liturgical."
>
> I don't think the current controversy is about what is most inspired...
Nor did I imply it. I just felt like sharing the perspective.
> it's about what's most culturally appropriate for children to learn in
> school.
Of course.
> Actually, you'd be hard-pressed to find "deeply inspired" music
> that could be communicated effectively to 4th-graders (the situation in
> the original post), who are just a few years past nursery rhymes.
That's where we are in profound disagreement. I don't think you give
suffient credit to either children or divine inspiration. :)
Shadowdancer
> Shadowdancer <shadow...@spiritmail.zzn.com> wrote:
>
> > So here is my appeal: Am I out of
> > line? Do you think this is acceptable in a public school? What other
> > suggestions/books/websites/periodicals can you think of I can utilize
> > to fight this? AAAGGGHHH I am just frustrated as my daughter has
> > already been singled out on the playground and given a hard time about
> > our religious beliefs. Can anyone help?
>
> First, I don't think the occaisional song drawing from a given religion
> is a huge problem - especially if it does not require someone to express
> any beliefs from that religion (such as singing an Ave Maria or a Mass
> setting might). I also think that a responsible school system is going
> to need to talk about religion (in a literary and historical context) at
> various points. More on this in a second.
>
> *However*, it also sounds like the school is not really thinking this
> through carefully. This is not a place where the religious content is
> necessary, and using a different song to achieve the same goals should
> be quite acceptable.
*****I think you are right that a school at some point in going to
need to refer to religion when teaching the history of our world in
general and more specifically in art, literature and music and you are
also right in that another song could have been used to teach the same
musical technique and I am offerring the alternative song as a viable
option so there are no offended parents in the future.*****
> You say that your daughter has already had a hard time - from other
> students? From teachers? Quite honestly, that's the place I'd probably
> be looking first. Would you be as concerned by the singing of a song
> which draws from another religion's mythology/sacred text if your faith
> were being consistently treated with respect? The answer to that
> question should, I think, suggest where you might want to focus your
> efforts.
*****It was another student that my daughter thought was her friend
that she confided in. She has sense learned not to discuss out
religion with anyone unless she knows they are a trusted adult or
another pagan child. Her classroom teacher handled it very well and
discussed (again) the importance of tolerance, respect and acceptance
of the differences of others. It is the principal of the school who is
not wanting to fully accomadate my daughter when she is not
participating in something that we aren't comfortable with. *****
*****When my daughter is older I am going to encourage her to take a
comparative religions class not only to educate herself more about
other religions and how they have shaped our world but for her to make
her own educated decision about her own religious choices. I don't
want her to feel like she has to be pagan just because I am.*****
>
> Gwynyth * gwy...@polyamory.org * http://www.polyamory.org/~gwynyth
*****I thank you for your insight Gwynth...I have a lot to think about
and a lot of decisions to make about my daughter's education now and
in the future and I know most of them won't be easy decisions to make
:-)*****
Shadowdancer
> I grew up as a Jew in a sea of Christians in Northern Virginia in the
> 60's and 70's. The school had a chorus (not choir, because "choir"
> implied church), and I don't know where, but I learned a lot of
> "Christian" songs - could be in the context of the chorus, or of other
> music classes. I remember a lot of the songs from the Civil War (except
> for the catchy "Goober Peas") had religious overtones, probably because
> the soldiers were trying to gain the help of YHVH to smite the other side.
>
> This is one of those "pick your battles" moments, IMHO. I remember not
> being particularly uncomfortable singing these songs (I also just
> remembered a solo I was chosen for for the winter performance in 4th
> grade - it was the 2nd or 3rd verse of the Xmas carol version of
> "Greensleeves" - and I was happy to sing it, because I like to sing)
> I guess during those times, people were more concerned with integrating
> the schools rather than making sure all students felt included and
> "comfortable". (and, as an aside, I lived and went to High School in the
> school district portrayed in "Remember the Titans" and I remember
> NOTHING like the protests and fights going on at that time. I think they
> took some liberties with history. I remember rioting in the city
> -Washington - but it didn't come out to the 'burbs where we were).
>
> Instead of asking to remove songs, maybe you can request to ADD some
> songs - perhaps "Fur and feather and scale and skin"? or another song
> about nature or about some other "pro-pagan" topic. It doesn't have to
> be religious in tone, either.
*****I have asked the school district if it would be appropriate to
offer these types of songs and what they have to say is if it is being
offered to teach a musical technique then I am welcome to suggest it.
If it is only being offered to have a pagan song sung in music class
then no. The music teacher insists he was using the song (The Arky
Arky song; Children of the Lord) to demonstrate the finger movements
for the recorder. My response to him will be why not use The Ants go
Marching. Haven't heard of that offending anyone lately :-)*****
>
> the Jewish (reform) sect that I was raised in took great pains to give
> us comparative religious training, because the adults know we are living
> as a minority, and the key to tolerance is information. I also suspect
> they taught us these things so we could withstand the onslaught of
> prosetlyzation (sp?) from the Christians as we grew up.
>
> What are you planning to do when your child studies art history? Or have
> you forgotten that most of Western art was created for "religious"
> purposes (never mind the fact that many mistresses of rich men were the
> models for all the "Madonna and Child" paintings, lol. Ahh, the excuses
> for showing a bared breast.)
>
> Perhaps it's time you teach your child comparative religions at home, so
> she knows what's up.
*****I like the idea of teaching her about many religions and I guess
in my ignorance didn't think I would be doing it at 9. I imagined a
teenager that would have an easier time understanding, even an age
that she would actually be interested would be better. Well the best
laid plans....*****
>
> I also think your principal is being just a tad insensitive to your
> needs and that of your child. However, your child is going to need a
> thick skin as she gets older and approaches the age where conformity to
> the group becomes more important socially than grades.
*****She is going to need a thick skin and we are learning more about
that now too. The only option her principal offered was for her to
bring a book to music class and if they are singing something she
isn't comfortable with she can sit away from the class and read.
Nothing like putting a big hat on her to draw even more attention to
her huh? I guess I remember an easier day when I was that age but
maybe it was the same then as it is now.*****
*****I volunteer once a week in my daughter's class. I enjoy being
there to help out as I know the teacher can't possibly teach 34 kids
and still get anything else done. The principal has definitely seen me
around and will continue to see me around. There is another family I
am in contact with about this, we are in this together. The music
teacher told the other concered parent that he has been using this
song for 10 years and every year 5-6 families complain but since it
has been approved by the school board he is going to use it anyway. I
had planned to let this go when he told the other parent that they
would only be singing it the one time but when it happened again I
lost my trust in him.*****
>
> Also, if this stuff is REALLY bugging you, consider running for a spot
> on the school board. That's where many of the decisions are made about
> such things, and also where grassroots political movements start - at
> the local level.
*****I am not sure about actually running for the board but you can
bet that from now on I will be at all the board meetings and making
myself known.*****
>
> My best wishes for you and your child,
> Wendy of NJ
*****Thanks for taking the time to reply to me. I appreciate your
advice and wisdom here :-)*****
>
>
>
Shadowdancer
> > So here is my appeal: Am I out of
> > line? Do you think this is acceptable in a public school?
>
> For my money, yes. Excuse your child if you like, but don't dictate
> the curriculum. Religious music forms an enormous proportion of
> musical literature. It isn't that you cannot sufficiently censor the
> literature (written, musical, visual, etc.) but that you should not.
*****My initial request was only to have my daughter excused from
music class on the days that they were singing overtly religious
music. The principal has stated that it is not the schools
responsibility to supervise children that need to be excused from a
class like this and if her reading a book in the same music class is
not good enough then it is my responsibility to come pick her up and
supervise her until music class is over. Maybe if they found viable
non-religious alternatives when it is possible they wouldn't have to
worry about 'supervising' kids like that.*****
>
> If the teacher snipes at your daughter, aggressively seek to have him
> reprimanded for that.
>
> It sucks that your daughter has been singled out on the playground.
> Was it for publicly declaring her religion?
*****She confided in one child who she thought was her friend one
night when she was staying the night with said friend. My daughter
asked her friend not to say anything at school because her and I
decided talking about our religion in school would be setting her up
for problems. Next Monday, 'friend' says something to several other
kids who circle around her on the playground shooting questions and
making comments to her about our religion, asking if she beleived in
God, etc. She repeatedly said that I didn't want her to talk about it
so she wouldn't but another child had to go get the teacher to break
it up. The teacher handled it very well, reminding them that under no
circumstances woudl they be disrespectful of someone because of their
differences. What 9 year old should have to go through that though? I
was very sad for her. *****
>
> Paul
*****Thanks for your reply Paul. I guess I need to set myself up for
this happening in the future and I need to prepare my daugher for it
by teaching her a lot more about many other religions so she isn't so
uncomfortable when the issue arises again. *****
Shadowdancer
*****I don't so much take offense to religious things coming up in
school such as the pledge (she simply doesn't say the 'under god'
part) or patriotic songs that refer to God. This song just seemed over
the top to me when it's purpose was to teach finger placement and
movement on a recorder. There is more opportunity to use hand
movements on the recorder using The Ant's Go Marching song. And then
the next music class saying he didn't want to be a bad guy but they
had to sing the song and how he learned about the bible in college and
thought kids should learn about the bible too? I am one of those
people that think if there is a viable non-religious alternative it
should be used. *****
>
> Many blessings,
>
> --
>
> Hummingbear
> http://www.hummingbear.net/~aayoung/
>
> I dreamed of a life that was pure and true
> I dreamed of a job only I could do...
>
> ---Monk's Dream
*****I thank you for your response Hummingbear. I do wish the school
oferred alternatives that addressed other religions but it doesn't
appear they do at this school and that is something I am going to
address with them. *****
Shadowdancer
*****I have contacted the ACLU but they have yet to return my call. I
understand they are volunteer-run so my next course of action is to
send them a very specific e-mail and see what we can come up
with.*****
>
> Since it appears to me, just based on the info you've given, that this
> teacher isn't going to limit his teaching to music and will start
> preaching the Bible, it's time to go do something about it.
>
> Blessings,
> Songweaver
*****Thanks for your post Songweaver. I guess my main concern is my
daughter seeing me follow through with this and stand up for our
beliefs in this world where it seems people are trying to step on
them. Not an easy thing to do....*****
Voxwoman
Fenris wrote:
I agree. My 8-year old (non-author and not a box turtle either, but they
can't ALL be prodigies, can they?) just started a (simplified) version
of "ode to joy" in her piano training. Plus some of the tunes she
creates extemporaneously are quite astonishing in their modal patterns
and rhyme schemes.
>
>
Voxwoman
Shadowdancer wrote:
>>
>>Instead of asking to remove songs, maybe you can request to ADD some
>>songs - perhaps "Fur and feather and scale and skin"? or another song
>>about nature or about some other "pro-pagan" topic. It doesn't have to
>>be religious in tone, either.
>>
>
> *****I have asked the school district if it would be appropriate to
> offer these types of songs and what they have to say is if it is being
> offered to teach a musical technique then I am welcome to suggest it.
> If it is only being offered to have a pagan song sung in music class
> then no. The music teacher insists he was using the song (The Arky
> Arky song; Children of the Lord) to demonstrate the finger movements
> for the recorder. My response to him will be why not use The Ants go
> Marching. Haven't heard of that offending anyone lately :-)*****
I think the Ants go Marching is derived from one of those Civil War
songs, isn't it? (brain... slowly working.... memory...) When Johnny
Comes Marching Home? Is that it? I can't for the life of me recall the
Arky Arky song melody...
>>Perhaps it's time you teach your child comparative religions at home, so
>>she knows what's up.
>>
>
> *****I like the idea of teaching her about many religions and I guess
> in my ignorance didn't think I would be doing it at 9. I imagined a
> teenager that would have an easier time understanding, even an age
> that she would actually be interested would be better. Well the best
> laid plans....*****
LOL. I think *my* religious training started around then, too. All my
catholic friends were in CCD, and I may have been jealous. My mother
claims it was my first exposure to pictures of the ceiling of the
Cistine Chapel that prompted my asking Mom and Dad "can I be Catholic?"
Then - BAM! I was in Jewish school.
Piaget (the child-development guy) set the "age of reason" at 7 years.
By 9, your daughter is definitely ready to learn some of these religious
concepts, and her peers have probably gotten a few years' head start on
all of it (the better to brainwash them).
>
>>I also think your principal is being just a tad insensitive to your
>>needs and that of your child. However, your child is going to need a
>>thick skin as she gets older and approaches the age where conformity to
>>the group becomes more important socially than grades.
>>
>
> *****She is going to need a thick skin and we are learning more about
> that now too. The only option her principal offered was for her to
> bring a book to music class and if they are singing something she
> isn't comfortable with she can sit away from the class and read.
> Nothing like putting a big hat on her to draw even more attention to
> her huh? I guess I remember an easier day when I was that age but
> maybe it was the same then as it is now.*****
No, I didn't have to wear a yellow star on my shirt, either, but didn't
matter. Singled out is singled out. It's much easier to be a
non-conformist when you're a teen and rejecting a lot of societies'
influence as a matter of course. (and I wonder what the kids of the new
pierced generation are going to do to piss off their parents, LOL!)
An aside... when I was in my 20s and 30s, I always thought I'd be a
"cool" adult, because there wasn't a genre of music that I didn't like.
Then, they invented rap. ("Thats not music!") And I turned into my
parents. Sigh.
>
>
> *****I volunteer once a week in my daughter's class. I enjoy being
> there to help out as I know the teacher can't possibly teach 34 kids
> and still get anything else done.
That's great. If the principal doesn't appreciate you for that, he's an
idiot.
The principal has definitely seen me
> around and will continue to see me around. There is another family I
> am in contact with about this, we are in this together. The music
> teacher told the other concered parent that he has been using this
> song for 10 years and every year 5-6 families complain but since it
> has been approved by the school board he is going to use it anyway.
(if you were on the school board, you can then "unapprove" the song <grin>)
I
> had planned to let this go when he told the other parent that they
> would only be singing it the one time but when it happened again I
> lost my trust in him.***
*****I am not sure about actually running for the board but you can
> bet that from now on I will be at all the board meetings and making
> myself known.*****
That's good. Perhaps I can still goad you into a life of politics, while
avoiding the same for myself. I've toyed with the idea, but I really
don't think my background can withstand too close of a scrutiny with the
press. Jaded past, and all.... (sometimes, I feel guilty that I've
killed my brother's chance at political office. I'm even more colorful
than Billy Carter <grin>)
>
>>My best wishes for you and your child,
>>Wendy of NJ
>>
>
> *****Thanks for taking the time to reply to me. I appreciate your
> advice and wisdom here :-)*****
>
hugs,
wendy
>
>>
>>
>
Voxwoman
Shadowdancer wrote:
> *****She confided in one child who she thought was her friend one
> night when she was staying the night with said friend. My daughter
> asked her friend not to say anything at school because her and I
> decided talking about our religion in school would be setting her up
> for problems. Next Monday, 'friend' says something to several other
> kids who circle around her on the playground shooting questions and
> making comments to her about our religion, asking if she beleived in
> God, etc. She repeatedly said that I didn't want her to talk about it
> so she wouldn't but another child had to go get the teacher to break
> it up. The teacher handled it very well, reminding them that under no
> circumstances woudl they be disrespectful of someone because of their
> differences. What 9 year old should have to go through that though? I
> was very sad for her. *****
>
I went through similar (but worse) when I was 7. (long story short: I
was attending a local YMCA camp, where one of the other attendees - also
7 - told me that *I personally* was keeping the entire human race out of
paradise because I did not have Jesus Christ as my personal saviour.
It's given me a bad taste about Christianity that I've carried ever
since. Not a way to win converts, IMO) I've also experienced sexual
harrassment in college and the workplace (this is before laws and
lawsuits to deter such behavior were in place). As long as you are
there for her and can provide her with "community" in whatever form, it
will help her. It's better to have others nearby with similar beliefs.
Your daughter will be well served if she can answer questions of genuine
curiosity from people who just want to understand, and learn to
distinguish honest inquiriy from taunting and harrassment.
My daughter has similar issues. We can't really keep our religion a
secret. I'm out - I will tell if asked (but it doesn't come up very
often), and my best friend's children know - my best friend is also
Pagan, but her children are being raised Catholic (and I think they
sometimes want to come to Pagan gatherings, because they hear about them
from my daughter - they are in the same class and play together, also -
but their father won't allow it.). So it's come up at school. The other
kid's mother but the lid on the teasing, for which I was grateful.
Religious discussion comes up on the playground, because it's a part of
these kids' lives, and they want to know about what the other kids are
doing. But most of the time, they are playing "star wars roleplaying" on
the playground, with only brief forays into religious philosophy, thank
the Goddess.
And as a final note, the YMCA camp where I suffered my first religious
torment is now a Lubovitch Center. (Lubovitch is one of the most
orthodox sects of the Hassidic Jewish movement). And no, I didn't cast
any "spells" on the place, LOL. I just like to see Karma in action...
-Wendy of NJ
Fenris
wrote:
> > That's where we are in profound disagreement. I don't think you give
> > suffient credit to either children or divine inspiration. :)
>
>
> I agree. My 8-year old (non-author and not a box turtle either, but they
> can't ALL be prodigies, can they?) just started a (simplified) version
> of "ode to joy" in her piano training. Plus some of the tunes she
> creates extemporaneously are quite astonishing in their modal patterns
> and rhyme schemes.
Odd you mention box turtles. I have three in the back yard--and they
aren't the brightest creatures I've known. :)
While discussing David Abram's "The Spell of the Sensuous" and the manner
in which Australian Aboringines sing maps of their environment as they
travel, a calligraphy client of mine noted that her 3-year-old daughter
made up songs about what she saw as they drove.
The best criterion for depth of inspiration is the enthusiasm they
engender in the singer. I think "local" folk songs are apt to be powerful
in that regard. When I was eight, the singing of my favorite folk song led
to my having a Goddess visitation right in class (no one
noticed)--forgotten until I rewrote the song decades later.
roselee11
taking the right action by contacting the aclu if for no other reason what
the teacher said about bible school please keep me updated on what happens.
i have a four year old so i might be in a similiar situation soon enough.
blessed be
roselee
"Shadowdancer" <shadow...@spiritmail.zzn.com> wrote in message
news:274b8f48.0210...@posting.google.com...
Chris Cottrell
<snip>
> I like the idea of teaching her about many religions and I
guess
> in my ignorance didn't think I would be doing it at 9. I
imagined a
> teenager that would have an easier time understanding,
even an age
> that she would actually be interested would be better.
Well the best
> laid plans....
Seems to me if your daughter is at the point of taking a
stand about her religion, she is ready to learn more about
other religions. Partly this is need (as she will be up
against non-pagans defending her position), but mostly she
seems more than ready. My experience with kids, my own and
others, is they are more prescient than most adults give
them credit for. Besides, knowledge about one's own faith
can be deepened by contrasting it with that which it is
not...
> She is going to need a thick skin and we are learning more
about
> that now too. The only option her principal offered was
for her to
> bring a book to music class and if they are singing
something she
> isn't comfortable with she can sit away from the class and
read.
> Nothing like putting a big hat on her to draw even more
attention to
> her huh? I guess I remember an easier day when I was that
age but
> maybe it was the same then as it is now.
I'm old enough that my school days were before Murray-O'Hair
and women's lib; your situation sounds like the settling
back into the old days. The whole point of these ACLU
lawsuits tossing bible meetings and prayer off school
grounds was so that dissenting students could not be
identified by the student body on the basis of 'sitting out'
during compromising school-sponsored activities.
Personally, I find self-segregation to be unacceptable and
offensive to be offered that poor choice. It's grounds for
a lawsuit, if you ask me.
How much have you got of this in writing? I expect all this
transpired in verbal communication; unfortunately it sets up
a 'he said, she said' situation if pressed upon legally.
I would suggest a carefully-written even-tempered letter to
the principal. Be innocent. Recap the situation in terse
but genial factual format ("Recently I came to you about a
troubling situation concerning religious sources being used
to teach musical concepts in your school..."); document your
response and the principal's advice ("I just wanted to make
certain I understood you correctly, so that we know how to
procede appropriately. I understand that 5 to 6 families
per year over the last decade object to the inclusion of
this song in the curriculum, but it remains in the teaching
plan? You have been reassured by the music teacher that the
song is only played once in the school year? And you
recommend that, should any religious song be presented in
future classes, my daughter should excuse herself from the
lesson and read quietly in another part of the room with
your leave to do so?)
A second 'follow-up' letter (once you have a written
response to the first) would also be good; in the follow-up,
thank the principal for the clarification and then add the
information that contrary to reassurances the song was
repeated (allow that the teacher may have acted in bad
faith, and that the principal may want to have a word with
the teacher) and that the teacher *in the middle of a
lesson* recommended biblereading to his students (allow that
the teacher 'obviously' exceeded his authority in doing so).
You might ask that a meeting be set up between the
principal, the teacher and yourself, citing you are not
satisfied with the situation that is being driven by the
teacher and being allowed by the principal. Also note that
copies of the first letter, the principal's response, and
the follow-up letter are being forwarded to parties higher
up (superintendent of schools, state senator, whoever you
think would be appropriate and/or effective).
Documentation is the first priority; it hands you
irrefutable evidence. However you procede, you will need
that, but don't let the principal or teacher know that's
what you're doing. You do have a right to get it clarified
how the principal wants you to act, especially if it
involves your daughter removing herself from classroom
participation.
Context is the second priority; it's the fulcrum whereby
even bureaucratic mountains can be moved. School power is
based on the permanent record and who has access to it.
Obviously the music teacher is supported (or at least has
nothing to fear; this is an old controvercy to him) by the
principal. So the principal's superiors must be brought
into the picture. I don't think the superintendent of
schools wnats a lawsuit on his/her watch; I doubt either
want a state senator involved. Plus it favors any lawsuit
you might bring that you tried to go through channels and
got nowhere, even though it is clearly against federal law
for them to act this way.
> I volunteer once a week in my daughter's class. I enjoy
being
> there to help out as I know the teacher can't possibly
teach 34 kids
> and still get anything else done. The principal has
definitely seen me
> around and will continue to see me around.
Still, most 'situations' like this blow over relatively
quickly, since the student is just passing through the
school. Stalling and stonewalling is a school principal's
best tactic; eventually the problem goes away...
> There is another family I
> am in contact with about this, we are in this together.
The music
> teacher told the other concered parent that he has been
using this
> song for 10 years and every year 5-6 families complain but
since it
> has been approved by the school board he is going to use
it anyway. I
> had planned to let this go when he told the other parent
that they
> would only be singing it the one time but when it happened
again I
> lost my trust in him.
If you could document the other objecting families
(otherwise, it's just rumor or hearsay), you would have a
stronger case. Still, having a second family to back you up
is good; any more communications on this subject should be
done jointly, so you have witnesses to what is said,
verbally or in written format. Granted, that may be
difficult if you run into the principal in the school
hallways and he wants to discuss the issue, but I'm sure you
can cut the discussion short in some way...
Good luck with this and do keep us informed of the progress
of this situation.
-'Thenie
Chris Cottrell
> Shadowdancer wrote:
>
> >>Instead of asking to remove songs, maybe you can request
to ADD some
> >>songs - perhaps "Fur and feather and scale and skin"? or
another song
> >>about nature or about some other "pro-pagan" topic. It
doesn't have to
> >>be religious in tone, either.
> >
> > *****I have asked the school district if it would be
appropriate to
> > offer these types of songs and what they have to say is
if it is being
> > offered to teach a musical technique then I am welcome
to suggest it.
> > If it is only being offered to have a pagan song sung in
music class
> > then no.
That's fair (the former). But it also sounds a little
patronising (the latter)...
http://nunic.nu.edu/~bbaltes/syllabi/611_piaget.html
http://www.funderstanding.com/piaget.cfm
http://chiron.valdosta.edu/whuitt/col/cogsys/piaget.html
Fundamental differences can be covered (religious format,
like basic dogma, ceremonial function, religious calendar;
y'know, factual stuff). Leave the fine points of belief
structures and religious mystery to another time.
I have always been ready to explain stuff to my daughter,
couching it in terms of "well, they believe 'x', and do do
'y' because they believe 'z'"... Most kids are quite
interested in motivation, which is a good place to start.
It's also good to encourage kids to speculate (without
attachment to such speculation) about motive and what drives
people to do or believe what they do. That's a 'why'
question, and most kids are ready for 'why' questions from
about age 3 or so.
But I'm sure you know this already (so please forgive if I
oversimplify; it's a bad habit of mine).
> >>I also think your principal is being just a tad
insensitive to your
> >>needs and that of your child. However, your child is
going to need a
> >>thick skin as she gets older and approaches the age
where conformity to
> >>the group becomes more important socially than grades.
Personally, I think the principal (as well as the music
teacher) goes beyond insensitive and into the realm of
second-guessing federal law, Congress, the Founding Fathers,
and the U.S. Supreme Court. That the music teacher (if
hearsay is accurate) publicly admits to 5 or 6 families
every year objecting to the use of religious material (when
there is plenty of other suitable material to teach the same
concepts, unless there is something lacking in this
teacher's ability), and that the music teacher makes the
recommendation to his charges *during classtime* and in his
role as educational authority (and not after class in an
informal setting) to read the bible is definitely going
against federal law. That the principal tolerates this and
that the principal supports the child self-segregate on
religious grounds as a remedy, that directly addresses the
foundation that led to the judgement of the U.S. Supreme
Court unholding segregation of church and state.
Social acceptance should not be set up as the motivation for
conformity; that's what drives discrimination. The U.S.
Supreme Court addressed such situations and basically said
that such conditions were illegal. No one should be put in
the position of having to decide between following their
beliefs or setting themselves up as a target on the basis of
those beliefs.
> > *****She is going to need a thick skin and we are
learning more about
> > that now too. The only option her principal offered was
for her to
> > bring a book to music class and if they are singing
something she
> > isn't comfortable with she can sit away from the class
and read.
> > Nothing like putting a big hat on her to draw even more
attention to
> > her huh? I guess I remember an easier day when I was
that age but
> > maybe it was the same then as it is now.*****
Again: document this; have the principal go on record as
proposing and supporting this as a 'solution'. Your child
needs formal documentation anyway to be excused from
classroom participation.
> No, I didn't have to wear a yellow star on my shirt,
either, but didn't
> matter. Singled out is singled out. It's much easier to be
a
> non-conformist when you're a teen and rejecting a lot of
societies'
> influence as a matter of course. (and I wonder what the
kids of the new
> pierced generation are going to do to piss off their
parents, LOL!)
I spent time in the counterculture of the early '70's. My
son wanted to rebel, but felt thwarted and friustrated in
his attempts, as I had pretty much done everything (and
more) that he could come up with.
Once, at age 16, he piped up in a social setting with peers
of mine and stated he wanted to dye his hair green. I told
him that was silly; everyone else was dying theirs purple.
He wasn't expecting that response, and I never heard another
word about it.
At 19, after leaving home he went totally Goth...
> An aside... when I was in my 20s and 30s, I always thought
I'd be a
> "cool" adult, because there wasn't a genre of music that I
didn't like.
> Then, they invented rap. ("Thats not music!") And I turned
into my
> parents. Sigh.
Try Was Not Was's cover of "Papa Was A Rolling Stone";
definitive version of the Motown classic, and the most
effective use of rap I have ever encountered; that may
change your mind. (And I am generally no fan of rap either,
but there are always exceptions.)
I never considered disco to be music either, though it's
well-wed and effectively used in the "War of the Worlds"...
> > *****I volunteer once a week in my daughter's class. I
enjoy being
> > there to help out as I know the teacher can't possibly
teach 34 kids
> > and still get anything else done.
>
> That's great. If the principal doesn't appreciate you for
that, he's an
> idiot.
>
> The principal has definitely seen me
> > around and will continue to see me around. There is
another family I
> > am in contact with about this, we are in this together.
The music
> > teacher told the other concered parent that he has been
using this
> > song for 10 years and every year 5-6 families complain
but since it
> > has been approved by the school board he is going to use
it anyway.
>
> (if you were on the school board, you can then "unapprove"
the song <grin>)
Are individual lesson plans reviewed at the school board
level, or is it that once approved, they remain in use until
something else causes them to be replaced?
-'Thenie
Chris Cottrell
message
news:274b8f48.02100...@posting.google.com...
news:<ab28278b.02100...@posting.google.com>...
> > > So here is my appeal: Am I out of
> > > line? Do you think this is acceptable in a public
school?
> >
> > For my money, yes. Excuse your child if you like, but
don't dictate
> > the curriculum. Religious music forms an enormous
proportion of
> > musical literature. It isn't that you cannot
sufficiently censor the
> > literature (written, musical, visual, etc.) but that you
should not.
I *so* disagree with this!
It is ultimately up to the parents to determine the
curriculum of public schools; that's why the school board is
filled by elected officials. The teacher is subservient to
the principal, who in turn is subservient to the school
board, who in turn bows to the parents and the general
public who elected them.
Somehow I don't see this particular song as carrying much in
the way of useful or meaningful religious-based musical
literature; there is no loss if it is replaced by something
more secular. We are not talking Handel or Bach here.
In the situation of religion-associated music, especially in
the event of objection by a minority practioner and the
recommendation of reading a specific religious text *by the
teacher during class time*, the U.S. Supreme Court allows
for censorship to circumvent discrimination.
If this song was merely a retelling of the fable of Noah and
the Ark, it could be tolerated as just another view; but it
includes repeated exhortations to "Rise and shine, And give
God the glory, glory" (which is repeated several times in
the chorus), which would make me uncomfortable, too.
http://www.scoutorama.com/dynso82.htm
The song has no business being in a public school
curriculum.
> *****My initial request was only to have my daughter
excused from
> music class on the days that they were singing overtly
religious
> music. The principal has stated that it is not the schools
> responsibility to supervise children that need to be
excused from a
> class like this and if her reading a book in the same
music class is
> not good enough then it is my responsibility to come pick
her up and
> supervise her until music class is over. Maybe if they
found viable
> non-religious alternatives when it is possible they
wouldn't have to
> worry about 'supervising' kids like that.*****
She couldn't go sit in the school office? She couldn't get
a pass to go to the school library? She couldn't sit with
the school nurse? So you are penalised for objecting to
imappropriate material in the school by having to come down
to babysit her during that class? Incredible.
> > If the teacher snipes at your daughter, aggressively
seek to have him
> > reprimanded for that.
Sounds like the teacher did that in a passive-agressive way
already by using the song a second time in one year...
My daughter considers herself pagan; a friend of hers
(daughter's now 14 and just started high school) confided in
her that she (the friend) is a 'satanist' (my daughter
refers to her as a 'devil-worshipper'), which made little
impression either way with my daughter (she didn't know who
'Lucifer' was until a couple months ago; foreign concept to
her). Even then my daughter did not tell of her own belief
system. Sometimes silence is best...and tolerance best of
all.
At 9 it's hard, but at 14 your daughter may become popular
for the same beliefs...
> *****Thanks for your reply Paul. I guess I need to set
myself up for
> this happening in the future and I need to prepare my
daugher for it
> by teaching her a lot more about many other religions so
she isn't so
> uncomfortable when the issue arises again. *****
That much is true.
-'Thenie
Chris Cottrell
(My dissent is stated elsewhere.)
No doubt what won the battle was that you had actually
thought the situation through and pre-empted any real
objections. One can present a program and participate in
such a program without having to act falsely (i.e., mouth
doctrine one does not support, as opposed to presenting
seasonal selections). Given your student was shown she did
not have to compromise herself, that she could actually sing
works that derive from her religious affiliation, it is no
wonder that situation was cut short. The Oregon teacher
seems to be resistant to input and seems (with that bible
comment) to have a (however slight) religious agenda that is
not appropriate for the public school curriculum.
> Music should be fun. I would work with my daughter to help
her figure
> out how to be comfortable singing about unfamiliar ideas.
I don't think
> "Children of the Lord" is a hostile idea; many Wiccans
call themselves
> "Chidren of the Lord and Lady" (isn't there a song about
that, too?),
> and if the Xians have forgotten the Lady, that's their
loss.
Still,
"The Lord told Noah
To build him an arky, arky
Build it out of gopher barky, barky
Children of the Lord
Rise and shine
And give God the glory, glory"
bothers me...
-'Thenie
thinking Alan Young sent a well-presented and useful
response
Chris Cottrell
>
> I don't so much take offense to religious things coming up
in
> school such as the pledge (she simply doesn't say the
'under god'
> part) or patriotic songs that refer to God. This song just
seemed over
> the top to me when it's purpose was to teach finger
placement and
> movement on a recorder. There is more opportunity to use
hand
> movements on the recorder using The Ant's Go Marching
song. And then
> the next music class saying he didn't want to be a bad guy
but they
> had to sing the song and how he learned about the bible in
college and
> thought kids should learn about the bible too? I am one of
those
> people that think if there is a viable non-religious
alternative it
> should be used.
I agree exactly.
> I thank you for your response Hummingbear. I do wish the
school
> oferred alternatives that addressed other religions but it
doesn't
> appear they do at this school and that is something I am
going to
> address with them.
Agreement and support with all points here, too.
-'Thenie
Tamara Eddy
Chris Cottrell <MTN-...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:BFCn9.345$eH6.14...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
(snip for brevity)
>
> Are individual lesson plans reviewed at the school board
> level, or is it that once approved, they remain in use until
> something else causes them to be replaced?
You have been giving such great advice that I have stayed out of this
discussion up 'til now, but having been a teacher, I just had to jump in...
Rules are different for each school district (believe me, I worked in
several, from the college level to the elementary). Some districts require
that the teacher (especially a new or non-tenured teacher) submit lesson
plans for approval - this could be done on a lesson by lesson basis, weekly
basis, etc. Some have the teachers submit lesson plans, but it's just a
formality in case something needs to be looked up or the teacher has to be
replaced during the year for whatever reason, but are never reviewed,
approved, or even given more than the most cursory of glances. Some don't
even require that the plans be turned in, just that the teacher have a
written record of the plans in case they are needed for whatever reason.
In none of the districts that I worked in did the plans get reviewed by the
school board. They highest they got was the chairperson of my department
and the principal of the school. In only one district did the
superintendent show any interest in what I, as a teacher of the district,
was teaching in my room, and that was because I was in a committee with her
(developing a new means for evaluating tenured and non-tenured teachers),
and therefore had caught her eye.
There is still a great deal of leeway and autonomy for the teacher in the
classroom, although it is dwindling with each passing day (a mixed blessing,
IMHO). And for tenured teachers (who are damn near impossible to fire or
get rid of) the power base is *huge* and going up against them can be very
difficult - not impossible- but very daunting.
Sorry, I'm not trying to pour ice water on your heat or tell the family to
roll over and play dead - on the contrary, I'm the first one to charge in
like a bull in a china shop. I say go ahead and fight the situation - as
long as it is what the *student* wants. I just wanted to give you a heads
up on some of the reality of teaching.
Blessed be,
Tamara
>
Shez
Shadowdancer <shadow...@spiritmail.zzn.com> writes
As a Pagan child over sixty years ago, I was taught at first in a
catholic school by nuns, before my parents could get me transferred to a
more normal school,
I was taught Christian songs their and sang them all through my school
days, it didn't affect my pagan path, I even know a couple of Jewish
songs or chants from friends,
Its music, and the church has some fantastic music, far to wonderful to
block out of existence because your of a different faith or culture.
I still thrill to the Ave Maria, though I have never been Christian, I
always sing Christmas carols, I love Amazing grace, more the music than
the words. I love music, and its never wise to confuse a child or let
her believe that because that music is of another faith that its wrong
or ugly. And she may be in danger of doing that.
I think perhaps its wiser to let your child experience everything she
can of every faith she can, as she grows and matures she will choose
which way her faith leads her, as we have done,
I couldn't imagine Christmas, which is after all a pagan celebration of
mid winter without Christmas carols,
As long as the School or the teacher don't insist on teaching their own
faith then I don't honestly think its a problem . If however the teacher
insists on teaching his version of the bible then you have every right
to complain and should do so, If five or six people a year are
complaining about his teaching and the music he uses then its not just
you, I should take a much greater interest in the School and try to get
on the school board.
If we as pagans insist that everyone else conform to our views of our
religion then they have the right to insist that they to have the right
to make everyone else conform to theirs, its got to be a matter of give
and take and compromise, you don't loose your ideals or your faith you
simply accept that you have to live with the ideas and faith of others.
If you keep making a fuss about the song the teacher or other students
might start taking it out on your child, she may become a loner not a
good thing to be.
She can simply shut up when the song is sung, or sing your words,
learning to compromise is something that we need to learn otherwise we
never learn to get on with others or to see and understand their point
of view.
As pagans we should be even more aware of being more accepting of others
having spent so many years being attacked and having to hide our own
faith, We do need to accept that all of us have to take our own path
through life, even if that path is something you don't agree with, its
still everyone's right to choose the path for themselves,
Give your daughter an understanding of compromise teach her to accept
that others have the right to their own path their own faith let her
enjoy music for music's sake without feeling that some music is bad or
good. Music I have found can lift the spirits, inspire the heart and
energise the soul, Surely it doesn't matter what religion is comes from
if its beautiful, its beautiful and worthwhile simply for that reason.
Save your energy for the big battles, they will come believe me.
>I could use any wisdom or suggestions that any of you have about this.
>I will try to keep it short as it has gotten very long and complicated
>over the past week. My daughter attends public school here in Oregon
>where she is in 4th grade. We are Pagan; my daughter has my support in
>not saying the Pledge of Alligience or not participate in any other
>activites she may not be comfortable with due to our religion. Last
>week she came home from school to tell me that they sang the "Children
>of the Lord (Arky Arky)" song in music class and it made her
>uncomfortable. I called and spoke with her teacher and asked that my
>daughter be excused from any further music classes during which
>they'll be singing religious songs. I also spoke to the principal who
>infomed me it is quite allowable for the music teacher to sing
--
Shez sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk
Deroberts2002
>and its never wise to confuse a child or let
>her believe that because that music is of another faith that its wrong
>or ugly. And she may be in danger of doing that.
It can be hard for children to differentiate between what is preaching and what
is teaching. My son got all upset because they were learning about A.D. and
B.C and the teacher had them write "In the year of our Lord". I had to explain
to him that this was part of Western history and not the teacher forcing
religion on him. Of course he is very good at finding any excuse to get out of
work. So much of the greatest music was written with a religious theme. Maybe
the best way to explain a song about Noah is to say it is a myth that some
people believe in. And explain that a similar story exists in many cultures.
De
Gale
His teachers are also using the wrong terms. Contemporaries should use
C.E. (Common Era) and B.C.E. (Before Common Era) rather than the
culturally limited Eurpoean terms abbreviated A.D. and B.C. Older
documents would, of course, use A.D. and B.C., reflecting the
Eurocentric (and Christocentric) nature of the dating system;
contemporary ones should use the more religiously neutral terms for a
dating system that has, indeed, become the one "commonly understood"
throughout the world (noting that other dating systems survive; we don't
learn them, but do expect everyone in the world to understand ours).
Toni D
I think it is good to expose children to religions of all kinds and let them
make there own path. That's what being a witch is all about for me.
I have 5 children;3 atheists, a catholic and a pagan.
Any or all of them may change and that's OK with me.
I would suggest you educate your daughter about other religions, their
traditions and their songs, and let her know they are just that - songs.
I don't much care for a lot of the music my oldest children listen to but
it's only music.
If she feels uncomfortable, I think you need to explore why.
I know I am sounding judgemental, but I'm not meaning to be.
Bright Blessings
Hertha
Deroberts2002
>C.E. (Common Era) and B.C.E. (Before Common Era) rather than the
>Gale
I think they were discussing it in historical terms which is why they went into
the "In the year of our Lord" thing. Can't be sure though since getting
information out of him is like pulling teeth.
De
Chris Cottrell
news:uq22a96...@corp.supernews.com...
> Chris Cottrell <MTN-...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> news:BFCn9.345$eH6.14...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
>
> (snip for brevity)
> >
> > Are individual lesson plans reviewed at the school board
> > level, or is it that once approved, they remain in use
until
> > something else causes them to be replaced?
>
> You have been giving such great advice that I have stayed
out of this
> discussion up 'til now, but having been a teacher, I just
had to jump in...
<blush> I trust that is a universal "You"... (Can't mean
just me...)
> Rules are different for each school district (believe me,
I worked in
> several, from the college level to the elementary).
That's why I was asking; I was surprised to hear the music
teacher had had his lesson plan run by the school board;
that is what prompted my question.
In our area (Baltimore City), the school board basically
issues the lesson plans; teacher do little more than execute
lesson plans that have been developed in committee. It
explains the sad state of the low level of education in the
city schools (and why my daughter's father and I relocated
her to the outlying county's school system, which has a far
better reputation for excellence).
> And for tenured teachers (who are damn near impossible to
fire or
> get rid of) the power base is *huge* and going up against
them can be very
> difficult - not impossible- but very daunting.
>
> Sorry, I'm not trying to pour ice water on your heat or
tell the family to
> roll over and play dead - on the contrary, I'm the first
one to charge in
> like a bull in a china shop. I say go ahead and fight the
situation - as
> long as it is what the *student* wants. I just wanted to
give you a heads
> up on some of the reality of teaching.
And good to hear it, too. Can't fight effectively if one is
unfamiliar with either the terrain or the rules of
engagement.
-'Thenie
Yowie
and that it seems religion seems to be a bigger deal over there, but I have
to ask with all respect, exactly what issue are you upset with? I'm not
trying to be facetious here, just trying to get to the actual problem.
Here is my reasoning:
Would you be getting as upset about the song "Rudolph the Red Nose
Reindeer"?
- Rudolph and his red nose are mythological subjects which have no
historical basis but are important symbols in western culture.
- The Pagan religions (AFAIK) do not accept, as a matter of faith, that
Rudolph is Real.
- It is sung with great enthusiasm by numerous people who also do not
believe even for a moment that Rudolph exists, and is also sung by those who
do have a good deal faith of Rudolph (usually children, but its still
faith).
- Singing a song about Rudolph does not in any way affect your personal
beliefs about Rudolph
So why is there a problem with "Arky Arky" when:
- Noah and his ark who are mythological subjects which have no historical
basis but are important symbols in western culture
- That the Pagan religions do not accept, as a matter of faith, that Noah or
the Ark were real
- The "Arky Arky" song is sung with great enthusiasm by numerous people who
do not even for amoment believe that Noah actually existed, and is also sung
by those who do have a good deal of faith in Noah (usually Christians &
Jews)
- Singing a song about Noah and the Ark does not in any way affect your
personal religious beliefs about Noah and the ark
That there is a declaration of personal faith in the last few lines perhaps
is a problem, but there are also personal declarations of faith in Santa
Claus in many Christmas Carols. And I 'll sing those with gusto knowing I
don't for a moment actually believe in Santa. But if *that* is the problem,
then personally, I'd just be quiet on that line. Popular songs have quite a
few personal declaration lyrics - I am reminded of Bohemian Rhapsody by
Queen: "Baelzebub has a devil put aside for me". Would you or your daughter
get upset about *those* lines if she was singing that song (personally, I
just don't sing that bit)
Is it the fact that its a Christian song that is the bother? Would Rudolph
(for example) or any other peice of fiction cause your daughter and yourself
to have the same reaction? Or is she just "fighting the system" and that
system happens to be mainly Christian? Would a song about the beauty of the
rainbow serpent's creation (Australian Aboriginal Mythology) be so
offensive, and if not, why not?
Or is it really about the *attitude* shown to you by the teacher and the
principal? That is fair enough, I think. They seem to have been, at the very
least, insensitive to your beliefs. But arseholes are everywhere, can they
be worked around, ignored, or just explained to your daugther as insensitive
aresholes that she just has to put up with until she gets a different
teacher or whatnot? We all have to deal with nitwits in our lives, are these
folks worth it, or can they be used as a lesson about tolerating even the
intolerant? Is the song just a symptom of their insensitivity and not the
actual problem in itself?
I do support you daughter's right *not* to sing the song if she really truly
believes that is offensive and against her religion to sing it. My concern
is, though, is by making this a big issue, your daughter is setting herself
apart from her peers when it may be important to her to show that, as a
pagan, she is just *like* her peers in all other respects. Every time we as
individuals decide to go agaisnt the flow, there's a cost attached.
Sometimes the cost is worth it, sometimes it isn't. I don't and can't know
you and your daughter's feelings and motivations behind this, but if you &
your daughter really believe that strongly that such a song is worth the
fight, is worth the stigma, is worth the hours of aggravation and perhaps
the rejection of your daughter by her peers, then I can but admire the
strength of your convictions. I wouldn't get all worked up over it, but
thats me, not you or your daughter. is this particular circumstance really
worth fighting for, particulary for your daughter?
I'm also concerened that, even though you are within your rights to do so,
that by making this fuss, the world is going to see your actions as typical
of Pagans as a whole. And if for the life of them they can't see what all
the fuss about "one dumb song" is, then pagans will be given the label of
being overly sensitive and intolerant themselves. ("All those other
non-Christians also have to sing the same dumb song, see the same fuss over
Christmas & Easter, have their holy days ignored etc etc, but don't make a
stink about it," will be their argument, "Why do Pagans think they are so
damn special"). I'm not saying that you shouldn't fight, or that you & your
daughter haven't been wronged by the school, but rather ask that you very
carefully analyse both what your real motivations are and what your
daughter's are, and to consider the likely outcomes for your daughter,
yourself, her other schoolfriends, the teachers, the pagan community
ingeneral etc etc, if you take up this fight. Be *very* sure what it is
exactly that you are doing battle for, and whether all the outcomes will be
worth it. In life, all of us, Pagan or otherwise sometimes just have to grin
and bear it, and conserve our energy for the issues that we absolutely must
expend our energy on. If this is that sort of fight, then go for it. But if
its not, this may have to be one of those nasty life lessons: life isn't
fair, some people are arseholes, and being right doens't mean you'll win.
Yes, your daughter's situation is difficult, but is it any more difficult
than any other situation a young person has to face in their daily lives?
How do other groups handle such issues? And most important of all: exactly
what does you daughter want out of all of this, and is that realistic?
Yowie