Tools
Tom Morrison
A few months ago I asked why one should not bargain for tools...
But now I have a different problem...when my girlfriend and I were in south
america 2 months ago we saw a great censor that I immediately wanted to buy
so I can use it in my rituals (when I start performing them), the guy who
sold it told us what the price was and before I could open my mouth my
girlfriend bargained for it...now what?
As I see it there's no problem using it, and at certain situation no wrong
in bargaining for a certain tool...
What's you opinion??
Blessed Be...
Tom
Mike
"Tom Morrison" <t...@netvision.net.il> wrote in message
news:Xns913B656904CB4...@194.90.1.15...
> Greetings,
> A few months ago I asked why one should not bargain for tools...
> As I see it there's no problem using it, and at certain situation no wrong
> in bargaining for a certain tool...
>
> What's you opinion??
The ways I was taught were the following:
1) Barganining for your tools means you feel it isn't worth paying "too
miuch" for something you will be using in service of the gods.
or
2) IF YOU USE MAGICK to find or obtain an offer to sell you somwething, then
you must pay whatever is asked, since the seller may not have really wanted
to part with the object.
I prefer the second undertsnading myself, although the first is also valid.
Since it was no you, but your girlfriends who did the bargaining, don't
woryy about it.
Just my opinion
Shez
<t...@netvision.net.il> writes
Sounds like your Girlfriend and I have a lot of common, Bargaining is
something I thoroughly enjoy doing, and in many parts of the world its
accepted, in fact the prices are very high to allow for a decent profit
when you have bargained them down.
For me buying anything that I can bargain down is fun, and if you want
tools or ritual bits and pieces then I don't personally see why you cant
bargain....
In places where bargaining is normal, you looked on as the village idiot
if you don't bargain.
I really don't know where this strange idea that your not allowed to
bargain for ritual tools and such came from. I believe its something
like paying the full price without bargaining is showing that you
respect your tools and would pay any price for them.
It sounds more to me like some shopkeepers who were getting pagan
customers thought that one up, they only people benefiting from such a
transaction is themselves.
I would personally be kicking myself If I bought something for £50
pounds when I could have got it for £25. Like most people I am not rich,
and paying over the odds which often happens in craft or pagan shops
annoys me.
I think many of the shopkeepers know they can get away with putting the
prices up to ridiculous levels, knowing that some pagans or wiccans will
pay no matter how silly the price is.
I have noticed that they are not averse to a good bargain, they don't
know or care if your pagan, just a smart buyer and are willing to take a
decent profit instead of a totally over the top one.
I did a bit of bargaining on a craft stall at a pagan fair in America
and came away with some great stuff, mostly for gifts, and at half the
asking price. Both the vendor and myself had a great time bargaining, We
were both laughing when I left the stall. And he came round later with
lots of Madi Gra beads and gave me a big handful.
--
Shez, the Old Craft lady sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk
www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/shez/
mist
wrote:
>I really don't know where this strange idea that your not allowed to
>bargain for ritual tools and such came from. I believe its something
>like paying the full price without bargaining is showing that you
>respect your tools and would pay any price for them.
I have heard several fitting reasons.
The first in foremost is that any item used is supposed to be free of
attachments and conditions from its previous owner (ie paid in full)
The item, if used ceremonially, should carry a feeling of importance
and worth - for many people this means not cheapening the deal.
The item should be free of remorse or resentment. So neither owner
should feel ripped off (unless that's part of the charge you want in
the item...) and their should be no animosity or misgivings in the
aquistion. In the case of his girlfriend bargining the price, if you
can go with the flow, celebrate the event if you get a good deal, buy
her a gift with the difference to show that you do appreciate her help
(unless you're on a savings target).
Finally and possibly most importantly, not all paying is done in cash,
and sometimes you need to bargin for your lifes worth and in others
its time to pay dues.
...mist (my 2cents worth)
Shez
<mist...@hotmail.com> writes
interested in the occult in the nineteenth and early twenties century
were well off or middle class.
They were used to buying the best and paying what was asked. Ordinary
working people couldn't afford to do that, and most of the real pagans
and the folk magick came from those working class people.
I don't think I would let that particular superstition rule my life,
It would break my Northern heart to stand their and be overcharged and
not argue the toss. :)
mist
wrote:
>>
> think this superstition is a fairly new one, most of the people
>interested in the occult in the nineteenth and early twenties century
>were well off or middle class.
>They were used to buying the best and paying what was asked. Ordinary
>working people couldn't afford to do that, and most of the real pagans
>and the folk magick came from those working class people.
>I don't think I would let that particular superstition rule my life,
>It would break my Northern heart to stand their and be overcharged and
>not argue the toss. :)
I would agree on the age of the belief.
I also understand the reasons for the excuses I listed.
And yes gentry would not haggle with the trades-people, why the meer
thought of it ;) From some of the occult stories I think that would
also be reflected in the divide between "real students of the occult"
(nowdays called Ceremonial Magickians), and the hedgewitches who made
magic with the world (so called low magics). Although the rich have
never been above stealing from others whatever catches their eye.
Aye, somehow I couldn't see Granny Weatherwax* putting up with it
neither.
....mist
*from Terry Pratchett's DiscWorld Books
Jackdaw
"mist" <mist...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3bcea86d....@news.paradise.net.nz...SNIP
>
> Aye, somehow I couldn't see Granny Weatherwax* putting up with it
> neither.
>
> ....mist
>
> *from Terry Pratchett's DiscWorld Books
>
I rather think Shez is the closest this world will get to her!
--
Dicon ... A Cornish Jackdaw
Collector of facts, trivia & bright twinkly things.
And skulls and bizzare items and.............
Yowie
Actually, what is *your* opinion? Without taking into account this bit of
superstition/dogma, do you think there is anything implicitly or explicitly
wrong with bargaining? Was bargaining accepted or even expected in the place
where you bought it? An most importantly, do you feel you paid an unfair
price for the item?
The joys of Paganism is the ability to make it up as you go along, letting
your conscience make up the rules for you.
Was any harm done in the transaction to either the buyer or seller? If there
wasn't any harm done, and I felt eveything was fair, then I'd quit worrying.
If I did feel that I had "ripped them off" then I'd pay the difference to a
charity that was Pagan friendly (Amnesty International, perhaps?). It won't
help the seller in the short term, but it would help my subconcsience pay of
the perceived debt. If I felt I had *overpaid* and regretted it, I'd
probably think about getting a censor I'd feel more comfortable with. But
thats just what I'd do. You get to work it out for yourself :-)
Yowie
Shez
fts.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>
>"mist" <mist...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:3bcea86d....@news.paradise.net.nz...
>> On Thu, 18 Oct 2001 00:13:18 CST, Shez <sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>SNIP
>>
>> Aye, somehow I couldn't see Granny Weatherwax* putting up with it
>> neither.
>>
>> ....mist
>>
>> *from Terry Pratchett's DiscWorld Books
>>
>Granny Weatherwax is my patron Saint and "Head-oligy Guide"
>I rather think Shez is the closest this world will get to her!
>
>--
Who Me.....!!!!! I have a lot more Granny Ogg in me than Weatherwax,
Now I probably could be seen dancing on a table and singing the
hedgehog song. ;) I would to if I could remember the words
However to be fair, I do have Esmes cold common sense, I think she must
originally have been raised in the North East of England :)
>Dicon ... A Cornish Jackdaw
>Collector of facts, trivia & bright twinkly things.
>And skulls and bizzare items and.............
>
>
>
>
--
Shez
<mist...@hotmail.com> writes
Neither would Nanny Ogg, only Magrat might be daft enough to pay full
price, because of such a superstition.
She was after all the trendy flower child young witch. :)
The other two were old and defiantly of the old school that said witches
didn't pay for anything, not even the thatched roof over their head,
Which was usually so organic with age, it was growing a forest. :_)
phorbin
gleaso...@verizon.net
Mike says...
>
> "Tom Morrison" <t...@netvision.net.il> wrote in message
> news:Xns913B656904CB4...@194.90.1.15...
> > Greetings,
> > A few months ago I asked why one should not bargain for tools...
> <snip>
> > As I see it there's no problem using it, and at certain situation no wrong
> > in bargaining for a certain tool...
> >
> > What's you opinion??
>
> The ways I was taught were the following:
> 1) Barganining for your tools means you feel it isn't worth paying "too
> miuch" for something you will be using in service of the gods.
> or
> 2) IF YOU USE MAGICK to find or obtain an offer to sell you somwething, then
> you must pay whatever is asked, since the seller may not have really wanted
> to part with the object.
If bargaining is a given within a culture, then you bargain. It's
expected and allowed for.
A teacher of mine didn't bargain for a pair of silver earrings and paid
the asking price (in Mexico, in the early 70's). The vendor was astounded
and started dropping his price. He chased her out of the market, trying
to give back some of the money she'd paid him.
The price you pay for something is the price you pay for something... and
using magic to find "that something" is simply finding your way to, or
drawing the object that is available. ---Unless you know that the object
is unavailable and set out to extract it from its owner... a different
issue IMO.
--
phorbin
Power unused is merely potential.
Potential unused often withers.
wsallen
Shez wrote in message <0xppJNC2...@oldcity.demon.co.uk>...
<SNIP>
>
>Who Me.....!!!!! I have a lot more Granny Ogg in me than Weatherwax,
> Now I probably could be seen dancing on a table and singing the
>hedgehog song. ;) I would to if I could remember the words
>
>However to be fair, I do have Esmes cold common sense, I think she must
>originally have been raised in the North East of England :)
Oy oy oy. Nanny Ogg has *LOTS* of common sense, it's just hidden better than
Granny's and goes into considerably more detail in certain areas. ;->
Heidi Aussie
*Looking forward to the new Pterry book, "The Last Hero."*
Shez
<wsa...@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> writes
>
>Shez wrote in message <0xppJNC2...@oldcity.demon.co.uk>...
><SNIP>
>>
>>Who Me.....!!!!! I have a lot more Granny Ogg in me than Weatherwax,
>> Now I probably could be seen dancing on a table and singing the
>>hedgehog song. ;) I would to if I could remember the words
>>
>>However to be fair, I do have Esmes cold common sense, I think she must
>>originally have been raised in the North East of England :)
>
>Oy oy oy. Nanny Ogg has *LOTS* of common sense, it's just hidden better than
>Granny's and goes into considerably more detail in certain areas. ;->
Nanny Ogg has lots of common sense, but it tends to be more emotional
than the Weatherwax variety. :)
she however manages to keep Esme in check when she goes to far, or goes
of the deep end.
When I need to think clearly about something I put emotion aside and
look at it from every possible angle. All the women in my family did
that, and lots of other women to, It was a way of surviving
When I am deeply troubled, Like Esme I go and clean something, it keeps
my body busy, while my mind is turning things over, looking for a
solution.
>
>Heidi Aussie
>*Looking forward to the new Pterry book, "The Last Hero."*
>
>
>
--
mist
wrote:
>
>Who Me.....!!!!! I have a lot more Granny Ogg in me than Weatherwax,
> Now I probably could be seen dancing on a table and singing the
>hedgehog song. ;) I would to if I could remember the words
>
I could just see the awkward silence as the vendor realised their
mistake, then profusely apologises then gifts the desired object and
several other trinkets (or preferably strong liquors*) to Granny Ogg.
And later on our Jason and our Simon pop round to the vendor for a
friendly word and a talk about showin some respect for their Mum.
* I suppose Baileys counts as a strong liquor.
Shez
<mist...@hotmail.com> writes
You got it, though I think most of granny's things come from her family,
and she doesn't take advantage of being able to turn the vendor into a
frog that often. :)
Besides most witches live on the financial fast track of a favour for a
favour , giving something to a witch means when you had to go to her
because you had piles, or you fell off a roof, Then you would get a good
telling off about sitting on cold things, and climbing roofs at your
age, plus you would get cured.
Its sort of a lay away plan.
Of course it wouldn't be politic to tell Nanny Ogg for instance that you
were climbing the roof because she had decided to have her yearly bath
night out in the garden, and was singing so loudly and badly that you
needed to escape before your ear drums burst. and that you ended up in
three feet of snow, and couldn't get your ass out until the following
morning. :)
>
>
>
>* I suppose Baileys counts as a strong liquor.
Yep... About that favour for a favour, if you give me the
baileys.....(grin )
Leotine
>A few months ago I asked why one should not bargain for tools...
The tool finds you. The tool buys you. If you haggle, you are missing
the moment. In all events you are together and that is all that
matters.
Leotine
mist
wrote:
>You got it, though I think most of granny's things come from her family,
>and she doesn't take advantage of being able to turn the vendor into a
>frog that often. :)
I think Nanny Ogg might consider that most people are generally nice,
if a little preoccupied and when they stop and remember how nice she
is they remember things like common curtesy.
Curtesties like Nanny Ogg is a nice witch and so when she calls in
they're happy to help when they not so flustered by day to day things
that they obvious didn't didn't notice that she was the lovely Nanny
Ogg. (hence the pause and rapid apologies :)
Shez
<J...@tesco.net> writes
vendor knows that you will pay what is asked, to me seems to be insane.
Unless of course you have more money than sense.
Their are a few things in this world I would not haggle over, Great Art
for instance if I could afford to buy it, and Work from people like
N'osal, who has such a wonderful talent, and tends to undervalue
himself.
Stuff bought in a shop and not bought from the person who made it, to me
is open to bargaining.
You can bet your life the shopkeeper did a bit of haggling of their own
to get the best deal.
Shez
<mist...@hotmail.com> writes
Nanny has a face like a wizened apple, rosy cheeks and all,
She wears hobnail boots, and has a figure that spreads to fill the
space around her. :) White curly hair, a nose like a button and a
somewhat toothless smile,
I don't think Nanny or Esme think that people are generally nice,
basically they know better, being witches they know things about folks
that folks would rather not be common knowledge ;)
Nanny might be sexually easy to turn on, But I think she is well aware
of her lack of youth and beauty. Besides Esme is considered to be a very
handsome woman, for her age. She has all her teeth, no warts and her
nose is straight an amazing thing for a witch.
Both of them consider rudeness to them at least a crime :) and Esme has
been known to take the wheels off a wagon while its still rolling, if
its driver has not got the sense to get out of her way.
Both of them walk through the world as if the world belonged to them,
They demand respect, and get it, because its bloody dangerous to upset
a witch :)
Synnoveah J Cooke
wrote:
>In article <3bd0a8a5....@news.paradise.net.nz>, mist
><mist...@hotmail.com> writes
>>On Fri, 19 Oct 2001 00:21:40 CST, Shez <sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>* I suppose Baileys counts as a strong liquor.
>
>Yep... About that favour for a favour, if you give me the
>baileys.....(grin )
>>
Shouldnt that be flavour for a favour?
~*~
Synn
~*~
The art of thinking
Is one I have not mastered
So I contemplate
Forever watching
For that one moment in time
That I would then Know.
~*~
Shez
Cooke <Synno...@earthlink.net> writes
>On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 11:07:40 CST, Shez <sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In article <3bd0a8a5....@news.paradise.net.nz>, mist
>><mist...@hotmail.com> writes
>>>On Fri, 19 Oct 2001 00:21:40 CST, Shez <sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>
>>>
>>>
>>>* I suppose Baileys counts as a strong liquor.
>>
>>Yep... About that favour for a favour, if you give me the
>>baileys.....(grin )
>>>
Whatever.... As long as their is a bottle of Baileys cream at the end of
it, ;)
I have just finished off my Yule home made Witches special, With
cherries, strawberry's, vodka, herbs and honey.
I will swop you a glass for a glass of your Baileys, I can promise your
head will be buzzing for hours, but it tastes like liqueur, a tiny glass
will knock your socks off.
Unfortunately I have a line of people, including my family wanting a
bottle and I never have enough bottles :)
I am begining to think I should market it, :)
>
>
>Shouldnt that be flavour for a favour?
>
>~*~
>Synn
>~*~
>The art of thinking
>Is one I have not mastered
>So I contemplate
>Forever watching
>For that one moment in time
>That I would then Know.
>~*~
>
--
Jackdaw
"Shez" <sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MEh3EfBP...@oldcity.demon.co.uk...
Rather big snip.........
>
> I have just finished off my Yule home made Witches special, With
> cherries, strawberry's, vodka, herbs and honey.
> I will swop you a glass for a glass of your Baileys, I can promise your
> head will be buzzing for hours, but it tastes like liqueur, a tiny glass
> will knock your socks off.
> Unfortunately I have a line of people, including my family wanting a
> bottle and I never have enough bottles :)
> I am begining to think I should market it, :)
>
Dear Shez,
I remember roughly the brew recipe you put up on the News Group awhile ago
but have lost it. So I have tried to re-construct it.
Can you please re-post it for us, please.
I have the eye of newt & toe of frog in the freezer but there is a problem
with the "Tongue of blaspheming Jew" as they are all pretty kosher around
here. So I put in a bit of Spam.
I have Skullcap, real Mandrake and some wild lettuce waiting to go in.
We have a lot of funny mushrooms up here that people with long hair and loon
trousers keep poaching.
The Red Lebanese with crackly seeds will have to wait!!
It DOES taste rather intersting at the moment though, but needs your magic
touch.
--
Dicon ...
somewhere near the ceiling....
A Cornish Jackdaw
Collector of facts, trivia & bright twinkly things.
And skulls and bizzare items and.............
> >
>
Synnoveah J Cooke
wrote:
>In article <8129tt8fqag6oguk3...@4ax.com>, Synnoveah J
>Cooke <Synno...@earthlink.net> writes
>>On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 11:07:40 CST, Shez <sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In article <3bd0a8a5....@news.paradise.net.nz>, mist
>>><mist...@hotmail.com> writes
>>>>On Fri, 19 Oct 2001 00:21:40 CST, Shez <sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>* I suppose Baileys counts as a strong liquor.
>>>
>>>Yep... About that favour for a favour, if you give me the
>>>baileys.....(grin )
>>>>
that should read flavour for a favour...
>
>Whatever.... As long as their is a bottle of Baileys cream at the end of
>it, ;)
>
>I have just finished off my Yule home made Witches special, With
>cherries, strawberry's, vodka, herbs and honey.
>I will swop you a glass for a glass of your Baileys, I can promise your
>head will be buzzing for hours, but it tastes like liqueur, a tiny glass
>will knock your socks off.
>Unfortunately I have a line of people, including my family wanting a
>bottle and I never have enough bottles :)
>I am begining to think I should market it, :)
>
>>
>>
>>Shouldnt that be flavour for a favour?
>>
>>~*~
>>Synn
>>~*~
>>The art of thinking
>>Is one I have not mastered
>>So I contemplate
>>Forever watching
>>For that one moment in time
>>That I would then Know.
>>~*~
>>
~*~*~*
Synn
~*~*~*
When Cheney comes out of his
"undisclosed" hidey hole, if
he sees his shadow, it means
Six more weeks of bombing.
~*~*~*~