Spiritualism and demons
Lagartija
spiritualism. I think I read somewhere recently, maybe Stainton
Moses, that while demons may exists guides do not accept their
existence as they are of the world man created. I am aware of all
linguistical connections a.k.a daimon = genius. Maybe this is way off
topic.
Lagartija
Ian
"Lagartija" <s...@sss.com> wrote in message
news:qkrmjv8fotcedvi4h...@4ax.com...
> Curious to know what the word is regarding the existence of
> demons in spiritualism. I think I read somewhere recently,
> maybe Stainton Moses, that while demons may exists guides do
> not accept their existence as they are of the world man created.
I still don't understand why guides wouldn't accept their existence
for whatever reason, guides wouldn't be doing much of a job if
they ignored that which might affect / harm us.
> I am aware of all linguistical connections a.k.a daimon = genius.
> Maybe this is way off topic.
>
> Lagartija
No, I see that it has relevance but that it's something that in an
ideal world we may never experience.
I certainly can't speak with any sort of authority on the subject
and I rather think the topic very much depends on what you
consider a demon to be.
Many Christians happily accept a mediaeval concept of how
demons appear due to the art work of the time, and they are
also happy to apply this terminology to all of those in spirit
that may wish to communicate with us, good or bad.
Now as far as personal experience goes my understanding of
planes of existence is limited, however I have seen / been aware
of a lower level populated by some rather unpleasant creatures.
I could therefore quite understand how their likeness has come
to be represented over the years.
Couple this with the ability of spirit to represent themselves in
a form of their choosing (and this might be a fair indication of their
character) and you have a number of explanations for demons.
Further to that I've had to deal with beings during clearance work
that were certainly not human, some malevolent and some seemingly
harmless but in the wrong place.
So this goes back to the planes of existence again, one of these
creatures I was aware of just needed a way back to where it
belonged, guides provided this and all was well.
We might well expand the topic to include elementals, another
source of confusion and not something I have much experience of.
It's all rather difficult to describe what I've seen and felt, much of
this came as a bit of a surprise to me but made sense in the context
with which I was perceiving / dealing with them at the time.
An interesting topic and I wonder what other people have
experienced? (otherwise I'm completely mad) :)
Ronald
Francis MacNutt, a religious minister, is the author of a book called
"Deliverance from Evil Spirits" and writes of some of his experiences
doing faith healings. He writes that cases of actual possession are
rare but that most people are influenced at times by evil spirits,
which he calls oppression.
He writes:"I might be conducting a healing service in a chapel, for
example, praying quietly for the people who come forward asking for physical
healing, when suddenly, with no outward provocation , a woman's face
contorts and she shouts out something like, "We hate you!" on one occasion a
young woman tried to strangle me, and several times I have seen people
reach for their throats as if to strangle themselves. ....
We might pass these off a psychotic episodes, except for puzzling factor
that simple do not compute, such as:
1. At other times these persons act normally. Often this is the first time
something like this has ever happened to them.
2. The atmosphere is usually not highly charged emotionally. These incidents
occur during a quiet service characterized by love and gentle prayer.
If these are hysterical outburst , what could be their cause?
3. When the people say something, it is often spoken in the plural: "We will
kill you!" Where did the we come from?
Sometime they roar like lions or bark like dogs. How do we explain that?
4.Usually these tormented people have not seen others behave like this, so
where have they learned it? It amazed me that demonized people all over
the world behave in the same ways when we pray for them.
...On those occasion when I was praying for such a person, I would take her,
along with a prayer team, to a side room . After a period of prayer, during
which I would command the spirits to depart, they would seemingly leave,
often through coughing of some other external manifestation. Afterward the
person would almost always say that she had felt the tormenting entity
leave. And she would appear to be at peace and often be radiantly
transformed."
Ronald
Ian
"Ronald" <RDKR...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:679%a.2242$Hv3....@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
<snip>
Curious that the Christians who accuse Spiritualists of
communicating with demonic entities intent on deception, seem
to have enough problems within their own flock.
Lagartija
wrote:
>No, I see that it has relevance but that it's something that in an
>ideal world we may never experience.
>I certainly can't speak with any sort of authority on the subject
>and I rather think the topic very much depends on what you
>consider a demon to be.
>Many Christians happily accept a mediaeval concept of how
>demons appear due to the art work of the time, and they are
>also happy to apply this terminology to all of those in spirit
>that may wish to communicate with us, good or bad.
It does seem Christians are quick to the raise the demon card, similar
I suppose to a friend of ours who raises the "witches" card. I don't
turn to fundamentalist teachings for valuable knowledge.
>Now as far as personal experience goes my understanding of
>planes of existence is limited, however I have seen / been aware
>of a lower level populated by some rather unpleasant creatures.
>I could therefore quite understand how their likeness has come
>to be represented over the years.
>
>Couple this with the ability of spirit to represent themselves in
>a form of their choosing (and this might be a fair indication of their
>character) and you have a number of explanations for demons.
>Further to that I've had to deal with beings during clearance work
>that were certainly not human, some malevolent and some seemingly
>harmless but in the wrong place.
>So this goes back to the planes of existence again, one of these
>creatures I was aware of just needed a way back to where it
>belonged, guides provided this and all was well.
>
>We might well expand the topic to include elementals, another
>source of confusion and not something I have much experience of.
>It's all rather difficult to describe what I've seen and felt, much of
>this came as a bit of a surprise to me but made sense in the context
>with which I was perceiving / dealing with them at the time.
>
>An interesting topic and I wonder what other people have
>experienced? (otherwise I'm completely mad) :)
>
I know that demons are a loaded name. I've heard descriptions of them
that varied from dumb shadowy creature to evil intelligence with
craft, intelligence and knowledge. It is of the later that I meant
when I posted this item.
For the most part it seems orthodox,tradional Spiritualism does not
talk about demons. Perhaps no one should. More occult , hermetic and
certainly the major religions all have references to demons though so
there maybe a meeting point between fact and fantasy.
Lagartija
Lagartija
wrote:
I've heard that generally what transpires in Charasmatic Churches is
pretty much bad entities. Whether demons or lost spirits, earthbounds
or what have you. According to the Charasmatics their expereinces are
the holy spirit. Throwing oneself on the floor and gnashing about
doesn't seem like the work of the Holy Spirit.
I have heard though of this person McNutt. Not very many Catholics
perform exorcism (although...nevermind). I think in part mostly to
the adaptation of modern times and psychology. After all the Vatican
is a lean mean marketing machine always looking for the return of the
flock and converts. No offense intended, it seems over the last few
hundreds of years they have compromised quite a lot.
Personlly I don't think it's a terrible idea that Christians try to
scare people away from things like ouiji boards, and saences and maybe
spirits. It keeps a certain type of consitution away from things that
maybe they are better off to be kept away from. From the actions of
my guides and other spirits I'm not so certain that they are all that
elevated and that spiritual growth is to be gained from them via their
guidance and / or assistance.
Lagartija
Ian
> I know that demons are a loaded name. I've heard descriptions
> of them that varied from dumb shadowy creature to evil intelligence
> with craft, intelligence and knowledge. It is of the later that I meant
> when I posted this item.
The only experience I have of the latter have been earthbound spirit
people, without this understanding though others would have to come up with
different labels.
> For the most part it seems orthodox,tradional Spiritualism does not
> talk about demons. Perhaps no one should. More occult, hermetic
> and certainly the major religions all have references to demons
> though so there maybe a meeting point between fact and fantasy.
>
> Lagartija
I believe there is, one of the reasons Spiritualism doesn't really go
into it is because the majority of Spiritualists have never experienced
anything that might be considered as demonic.
And of those that have, they all have to come to their own understanding of
what it is they are dealing with and label it accordingly.
Ian
> On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:13:06 +0100, "Ian" <ianbradley@@ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Ronald" <RDKR...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> >news:679%a.2242$Hv3....@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
> >>
> >> "Lagartija" <s...@sss.com> wrote in message
> >> news:qkrmjv8fotcedvi4h...@4ax.com...
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> >Curious that the Christians who accuse Spiritualists of
> >communicating with demonic entities intent on deception, seem
> >to have enough problems within their own flock.
> >
>
> I've heard that generally what transpires in Charasmatic Churches
> is pretty much bad entities. Whether demons or lost spirits,
> earthbounds or what have you. According to the Charasmatics
> their expereinces are the holy spirit. Throwing oneself on the floor
> and gnashing about doesn't seem like the work of the Holy Spirit.
I wonder how much a person's preconceived notion of demon /
spirit removal influences their experience?
> I have heard though of this person McNutt. Not very many
> Catholics perform exorcism (although...nevermind). I think in
> part mostly to the adaptation of modern times and psychology.
> After all the Vatican is a lean mean marketing machine always
> looking for the return of the flock and converts. No offense
> intended, it seems over the last few hundreds of years they have
> compromised quite a lot.
>
> Personlly I don't think it's a terrible idea that Christians try to
> scare people away from things like ouiji boards, and saences and
> maybe spirits. It keeps a certain type of consitution away from
> things that maybe they are better off to be kept away from.
Agreed, and probably why such strong warnings are given in the
Bible, however it leaves the rest of us rather unfairly labelled by
those Christians unable or unwilling to think for themselves.
> From the actions of my guides and other spirits I'm not so certain
> that they are all that elevated and that spiritual growth is to be
> gained from them via their guidance and / or assistance.
>
> Lagartija
But how much do you actually know of your guides actions
throughout your life here? their perspective is somewhat different
and broader than ours, and they don't typically announce their
assistance.
Lagartija
wrote:
>
>"Lagartija" <s...@sss.com> wrote in message
>news:eutqjvkqa820flgmi...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:13:06 +0100, "Ian" <ianbradley@@ntlworld.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Ronald" <RDKR...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>> >news:679%a.2242$Hv3....@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
>> >>
>> >> "Lagartija" <s...@sss.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:qkrmjv8fotcedvi4h...@4ax.com...
>> >
>> ><snip>
>> >
>> >Curious that the Christians who accuse Spiritualists of
>> >communicating with demonic entities intent on deception, seem
>> >to have enough problems within their own flock.
>> >
>>
>> I've heard that generally what transpires in Charasmatic Churches
>> is pretty much bad entities. Whether demons or lost spirits,
>> earthbounds or what have you. According to the Charasmatics
>> their expereinces are the holy spirit. Throwing oneself on the floor
>> and gnashing about doesn't seem like the work of the Holy Spirit.
>
>I wonder how much a person's preconceived notion of demon /
>spirit removal influences their experience?
I know I can't answer that but summize it is an influencer. What
needs to be done is let go of the thoughts, intellection and ego. Of
course that's alot and but an effort towards that goal has to make a
difference. The less of those things the more the pure experience can
come through.
>> I have heard though of this person McNutt. Not very many
>> Catholics perform exorcism (although...nevermind). I think in
>> part mostly to the adaptation of modern times and psychology.
>> After all the Vatican is a lean mean marketing machine always
>> looking for the return of the flock and converts. No offense
>> intended, it seems over the last few hundreds of years they have
>> compromised quite a lot.
>>
>> Personlly I don't think it's a terrible idea that Christians try to
>> scare people away from things like ouiji boards, and saences and
>> maybe spirits. It keeps a certain type of consitution away from
>> things that maybe they are better off to be kept away from.
>
>Agreed, and probably why such strong warnings are given in the
>Bible, however it leaves the rest of us rather unfairly labelled by
>those Christians unable or unwilling to think for themselves.
Why care what others think. It's no different then bigotry, prejudice
or racism. Still I'm not sure if it's that they can't think for
themselves. They are part of a herd mentality. Maybe, just maybe
that is what they need though, whether it's right or wrong. A little
reading and study of knowledge might open up new horizons for them and
help refine some of their more basic desires and goals. Guess it's the
old saying , you can lead a horse to water .......
>
>> From the actions of my guides and other spirits I'm not so certain
>> that they are all that elevated and that spiritual growth is to be
>> gained from them via their guidance and / or assistance.
>>
>> Lagartija
>
>But how much do you actually know of your guides actions
>throughout your life here? their perspective is somewhat different
>and broader than ours, and they don't typically announce their
>assistance.
>
I don't know their actions and that is the scary part. This is not to
imply that I'm superstitious. I can't really dwell on it and leave it
up to fate and the chance that everything has value. As far as
perspective, I think it may have to do more with being in Spirit then
their actual attainments of wisdom, knowledge and progression on the
path. Not sure if that makes sense. It's like looking out a window,
if your on a lower floor you will see less then on a higher floor.
It's more to do with physics though.
Lagartija
Ian
> On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 10:55:50 +0100, "Ian" <ianbradley@@ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Lagartija" <s...@sss.com> wrote in message
> >news:eutqjvkqa820flgmi...@4ax.com...
> >> On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:13:06 +0100, "Ian" <ianbradley@@ntlworld.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"Ronald" <RDKR...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> >> >news:679%a.2242$Hv3....@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
> >> >>
> >> >> "Lagartija" <s...@sss.com> wrote in message
> >> >> news:qkrmjv8fotcedvi4h...@4ax.com...
> >> >
> >> ><snip>
> >But how much do you actually know of your guides actions
> >throughout your life here? their perspective is somewhat different
> >and broader than ours, and they don't typically announce their
> >assistance.
> >
>
> I don't know their actions and that is the scary part. This is not to
> imply that I'm superstitious. I can't really dwell on it and leave it
> up to fate and the chance that everything has value. As far as
> perspective, I think it may have to do more with being in Spirit then
> their actual attainments of wisdom, knowledge and progression on the
> path. Not sure if that makes sense. It's like looking out a window,
> if your on a lower floor you will see less then on a higher floor.
> It's more to do with physics though.
>
> Lagartija
Then by that logic even the most evil of spirit would have the
same level of ability to help and assist us if they so chose?
With my own dealings with spirit I really do like to categorise
them, I want to know "where they're coming from" and get a
good idea of their nature.
By doing this I've experienced the difference between say a
relative and a guide, relatives may display the same personality
and emotions as when we knew them, yet guides have a discernible
"something special" about them.
This is kind of hard to describe if you've not had the chance to
contrast them with other spirit, but guides have a depth of character
and wisdom that is there for us to sense, if you can do that and
"know" them you'll see why they are evolved enough spiritually to
help us in our efforts to evolve ourselves.
There's really something that sets them apart from others, I don't
care what they look like, I want to know what they feel like, I
can get eye contact and sense a portion of what they know, this
doesn't leave room for doubts about them once I've done this
and gauged their worth.
I really would have liked to have given something better than an
"inner knowing" response, but experience is always the best teacher
and something I had to arrive at myself over time.
Ian.
John Fitzsimons
wrote:
>"Lagartija" <s...@sss.com> wrote in message
>news:4itqjvouk1q7464am...@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:02:38 +0100, "Ian" <ianbradley@@ntlworld.com>
>> wrote:
><snip>
>> I know that demons are a loaded name. I've heard descriptions
>> of them that varied from dumb shadowy creature to evil intelligence
>> with craft, intelligence and knowledge. It is of the later that I meant
>> when I posted this item.
>The only experience I have of the latter have been earthbound spirit
>people, without this understanding though others would have to come up with
>different labels.
Well, now one needs to define "earthbound". :-)
When I think of that term I generally think of someone who doesn't
know that they are dead. Negatively focussed entities however often do
know that they are dead. This latter group may well be the best suited
to the term "demons".
>> For the most part it seems orthodox,tradional Spiritualism does not
>> talk about demons. Perhaps no one should. More occult, hermetic
>> and certainly the major religions all have references to demons
>> though so there maybe a meeting point between fact and fantasy.
>I believe there is, one of the reasons Spiritualism doesn't really go
>into it is because the majority of Spiritualists have never experienced
>anything that might be considered as demonic.
Correction : Never "consciously" experienced..... :-)
Many people experience negative happenings due to negative (demonic ?)
spirit people BUT they don't consciously know that.
>And of those that have, they all have to come to their own understanding of
>what it is they are dealing with and label it accordingly.
Agreed.
Regards, John.
--
****************************************************
,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia.
/ Oz \ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm
\_,--.x/ http://clients.net2000.com.au/~johnf/
v
John Fitzsimons
wrote:
>"Lagartija" <s...@sss.com> wrote in message
>news:qkrmjv8fotcedvi4h...@4ax.com...
>> Curious to know what the word is regarding the existence of
>> demons in spiritualism. I think I read somewhere recently,
>> maybe Stainton Moses, that while demons may exists guides do
>> not accept their existence as they are of the world man created.
>I still don't understand why guides wouldn't accept their existence
>for whatever reason, guides wouldn't be doing much of a job if
>they ignored that which might affect / harm us.
Yes, but to affect us they need to exist. Demons as such don't exist.
Unless one considers thought-forms as "existing".
>> I am aware of all linguistical connections a.k.a daimon = genius.
>> Maybe this is way off topic.
>No, I see that it has relevance but that it's something that in an
>ideal world we may never experience.
>I certainly can't speak with any sort of authority on the subject
>and I rather think the topic very much depends on what you
>consider a demon to be.
Exactly. Some people consider all spirit people to be demons.
>Many Christians happily accept a mediaeval concept of how
>demons appear due to the art work of the time, and they are
>also happy to apply this terminology to all of those in spirit
>that may wish to communicate with us, good or bad.
>Now as far as personal experience goes my understanding of
>planes of existence is limited, however I have seen / been aware
>of a lower level populated by some rather unpleasant creatures.
>I could therefore quite understand how their likeness has come
>to be represented over the years.
>Couple this with the ability of spirit to represent themselves in
>a form of their choosing (and this might be a fair indication of their
>character) and you have a number of explanations for demons.
< snip >
Yep.
John Fitzsimons
wrote:
>"Lagartija" <s...@sss.com> wrote in message
>news:qkrmjv8fotcedvi4h...@4ax.com...
>> Curious to know what the word is regarding the existence of demons in
>> spiritualism. I think I read somewhere recently, maybe Stainton
>> Moses, that while demons may exists guides do not accept their
>> existence as they are of the world man created. I am aware of all
>> linguistical connections a.k.a daimon = genius. Maybe this is way off
>> topic.
>Francis MacNutt, a religious minister, is the author of a book called
>"Deliverance from Evil Spirits"
Publisher ? ISBN ?
>and writes of some of his experiences
>doing faith healings. He writes that cases of actual possession are
>rare but that most people are influenced at times by evil spirits,
>which he calls oppression.
Agreed.
>He writes:"I might be conducting a healing service in a chapel, for
>example, praying quietly for the people who come forward asking for physical
>healing, when suddenly, with no outward provocation , a woman's face
>contorts and she shouts out something like, "We hate you!"
Yes, negative entities can dislike people reducing their power.
Swearing is common in such episodes as well.
>on one occasion a
>young woman tried to strangle me, and several times I have seen people
>reach for their throats as if to strangle themselves. ....
That's why one should clear negative spirit entities while in a group
of competent assistants.
>We might pass these off a psychotic episodes, except for puzzling factor
>that simple do not compute, such as:
>1. At other times these persons act normally. Often this is the first time
> something like this has ever happened to them.
Yep.
>2. The atmosphere is usually not highly charged emotionally. These incidents
> occur during a quiet service characterized by love and gentle prayer.
> If these are hysterical outburst , what could be their cause?
Loss of influence/power.
>3. When the people say something, it is often spoken in the plural: "We will
> kill you!" Where did the we come from?
Multiple entities.
> Sometime they roar like lions or bark like dogs. How do we explain that?
>4.Usually these tormented people have not seen others behave like this, so
> where have they learned it? It amazed me that demonized people all over
> the world behave in the same ways when we pray for them.
That depends on the strength of the prayer/healer and the strength of
the obsessing/possessing entity.
>...On those occasion when I was praying for such a person, I would take her,
>along with a prayer team, to a side room . After a period of prayer, during
>which I would command the spirits to depart, they would seemingly leave,
>often through coughing of some other external manifestation. Afterward the
>person would almost always say that she had felt the tormenting entity
>leave. And she would appear to be at peace and often be radiantly
>transformed."
A common comment in such situations is "I feel like a huge burden has
been lifted off me."
John Fitzsimons
>On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:02:38 +0100, "Ian" <ianbradley@@ntlworld.com>
>wrote:
>>No, I see that it has relevance but that it's something that in an
>>ideal world we may never experience.
>>I certainly can't speak with any sort of authority on the subject
>>and I rather think the topic very much depends on what you
>>consider a demon to be.
>>Many Christians happily accept a mediaeval concept of how
>>demons appear due to the art work of the time, and they are
>>also happy to apply this terminology to all of those in spirit
>>that may wish to communicate with us, good or bad.
>It does seem Christians are quick to the raise the demon card, similar
>I suppose to a friend of ours who raises the "witches" card. I don't
>turn to fundamentalist teachings for valuable knowledge.
Good. One of the common recommendations given to spiritualists is
to go by personal experience of such things.
< snip >
>I know that demons are a loaded name. I've heard descriptions of them
>that varied from dumb shadowy creature to evil intelligence with
>craft, intelligence and knowledge. It is of the later that I meant
>when I posted this item.
If one is simply calling negatively focussed spirit people "demons"
then they do exist.
>For the most part it seems orthodox,tradional Spiritualism does not
>talk about demons. Perhaps no one should. More occult , hermetic and
>certainly the major religions all have references to demons though so
>there maybe a meeting point between fact and fantasy.
Certainly. Negative people alive, and dead, exist. If one prefers to
call such people "demons" then that is simply a different term for
them.
John Fitzsimons
wrote:
< snip >
>With my own dealings with spirit I really do like to categorise
>them, I want to know "where they're coming from" and get a
>good idea of their nature.
To do otherwise would be rather foolhardy IMO.
>By doing this I've experienced the difference between say a
>relative and a guide, relatives may display the same personality
>and emotions as when we knew them, yet guides have a discernible
>"something special" about them.
Yep. Generally more of a calmness. More of an "objective" view of
things.
>This is kind of hard to describe if you've not had the chance to
>contrast them with other spirit, but guides have a depth of character
>and wisdom that is there for us to sense, if you can do that and
>"know" them you'll see why they are evolved enough spiritually to
>help us in our efforts to evolve ourselves.
You are talking about guides of the Light. If one calls any spirit
person who "guides" someone a "guide" then things are different.
>There's really something that sets them apart from others, I don't
>care what they look like, I want to know what they feel like, I
>can get eye contact and sense a portion of what they know, this
>doesn't leave room for doubts about them once I've done this
>and gauged their worth.
Sensing IMO is far preferable to simply seeing. Images can be
changed/faked. Sensing is more difficult to project as "positive", for
someone who is "negative".
>I really would have liked to have given something better than an
>"inner knowing" response, but experience is always the best teacher
>and something I had to arrive at myself over time.
Personal experience IMO is always preferable to some "opinion" that
might be based on guesswork etc.
John Fitzsimons
>On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:13:06 +0100, "Ian" <ianbradley@@ntlworld.com>
>wrote:
< snip >
>Personlly I don't think it's a terrible idea that Christians try to
>scare people away from things like ouiji boards, and saences and maybe
>spirits.
There is nothing wrong with ouija boards, seances or spirits. IF such
activity is conducted by people who know what they are doing.
>It keeps a certain type of consitution away from things that
>maybe they are better off to be kept away from.
The "ignorance is bliss" argument. Not one I agree with. A better
approach would be for people to get a better understanding of such
things.
>From the actions of
>my guides and other spirits I'm not so certain that they are all that
>elevated and that spiritual growth is to be gained from them via their
>guidance and / or assistance.
Every person's guides are on different levels. Some are further along
the path than others. Added to that it is much easier for people to
contact spirit people lower on the spiritual ladder, than higher.
As one learns one is able to more easily contact "higher" entities.
John Fitzsimons
wrote:
>"Lagartija" <s...@sss.com> wrote in message
>news:eutqjvkqa820flgmi...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:13:06 +0100, "Ian" <ianbradley@@ntlworld.com>
>> wrote:
>> I've heard that generally what transpires in Charasmatic Churches
>> is pretty much bad entities. Whether demons or lost spirits,
>> earthbounds or what have you. According to the Charasmatics
>> their expereinces are the holy spirit. Throwing oneself on the floor
>> and gnashing about doesn't seem like the work of the Holy Spirit.
>I wonder how much a person's preconceived notion of demon /
>spirit removal influences their experience?
A lot, I would say. My perception of Charismatic Church behaviour is
that they like a good "show". I suspect that is what brings many
people to such groups.
< snip >
>> From the actions of my guides and other spirits I'm not so certain
>> that they are all that elevated and that spiritual growth is to be
>> gained from them via their guidance and / or assistance.
>But how much do you actually know of your guides actions
>throughout your life here? their perspective is somewhat different
>and broader than ours, and they don't typically announce their
>assistance.
Yep. Much that spirit does for people is done without those people's
conscious knowledge.
John Fitzsimons
>Curious to know what the word is regarding the existence of demons in
>spiritualism.
I would think that the majority would not have any belief in demons.
Those that do almost certainly have a christian background. One where
such belief was common.
> I think I read somewhere recently, maybe Stainton
>Moses, that while demons may exists guides do not accept their
>existence as they are of the world man created.
Correct.
< snip >
Lagartija
<xpm4s...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 07:15:37 -0400, Lagartija <s...@sss.com> wrote:
>
>>Curious to know what the word is regarding the existence of demons in
>>spiritualism.
>
>I would think that the majority would not have any belief in demons.
>Those that do almost certainly have a christian background. One where
>such belief was common.
So the belief and existence of demons is particular to Christianity?
Not so, read the old testament, look at other relgiions and esoteric
orders. Their existence is acknowledged in most.
Lagartija
Lagartija
<xpm4s...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
>The "ignorance is bliss" argument. Not one I agree with. A better
>approach would be for people to get a better understanding of such
>things.
One doesn't have to walk into a fire to know they could get burnt.
Nor does anyone have to spend their time, energy and resources
pursuing something that they feel is not right for them. It's not
ignorance necessarily, but choosing what is of value for one's life.
>Every person's guides are on different levels. Some are further along
>the path than others. Added to that it is much easier for people to
>contact spirit people lower on the spiritual ladder, than higher.
>
>As one learns one is able to more easily contact "higher" entities.
>
>Regards, John.
I tend to think that the scale of variance isn't that great. Example,
there are many different types of people in the United States, still
they all live in the same place.
Regardless of where I'm at it makes sense to aim for the highest. Use
a map and know where your going instead of having to stop along the
way for directions.
Lagartija
Lagartija
<xpm4s...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
>
>>I know that demons are a loaded name. I've heard descriptions of them
>>that varied from dumb shadowy creature to evil intelligence with
>>craft, intelligence and knowledge. It is of the later that I meant
>>when I posted this item.
>
>If one is simply calling negatively focussed spirit people "demons"
>then they do exist.
>
>Certainly. Negative people alive, and dead, exist. If one prefers to
>call such people "demons" then that is simply a different term for
>them.
>
>Regards, John.
Your entitled to your concept of "demons", as I said it's a loaded
term. Why would it be so difficult to consider their existence as
seperate from man. The variation of life forms, high and low is
great. You believe in angels, but not demons?
Lagartija
Nick Argall
"Ian" <ianbradley@@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:WVc%a.12597$Kx1.1...@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net...
I found it quite credible. Trying to provoke such an episode would be
fraud, but the description of events provided is quite consistent with my
studies and experience.
Nick
Nick Argall
The Buddhists call them Mara.
One whose mind is filled with hate may become a demon, and be reborn into a
world of terrible suffering. They are creatures to be pitied, for their
task is to punish themselves until they are reborn again.
Nick
Ian
"Nick Argall" <nick....@aplaceof.removedotcom.info.com> wrote in message
news:3f431b6f$0$6527$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Care to share Nick?
Nick Argall
People can have certain energies stored up inside them, and these energies
are like a festering boil, a bit of acid or pus that sits underneath the
skin. If you treat the problems caused by that trapped energy, the
surrounding 'scar tissue' may soften to the point where the energy breaks
free and is released. An especially peaceful and safe healing environment
is actually more likely to allow the person to lower their defences enough
to have it all come out in one intense blast.
_Healing from within with Chi Nei Tsang_ by Giles Marin is notionally about
abdominal massage, but contains some of the most profound wisdom regarding
the spiritual and emotional aspects of healing that I have seen anywhere.
My own experience also confirms that when healing my own oldest wounds, that
the healing is accompanied by an expression of trapped energies. If you use
a different system of reference, it's quite valid to describe those trapped
energies as an occupying demonic entity.
HTH,
Nick
Lagartija
<nick....@aplaceof.removedotcom.info.com> wrote:
>_Healing from within with Chi Nei Tsang_ by Giles Marin is notionally about
>abdominal massage, but contains some of the most profound wisdom regarding
>the spiritual and emotional aspects of healing that I have seen anywhere.
>My own experience also confirms that when healing my own oldest wounds, that
>the healing is accompanied by an expression of trapped energies. If you use
>a different system of reference, it's quite valid to describe those trapped
>energies as an occupying demonic entity.
>
>Nick
Nick, thanks for the book reference. I took a looksy at the CNT web
site. Interesting stuff.
It just seems that every culture, every religion and the people that
occupy them have their own pantheon of non-physical entities that play
a role, directly or impersonal in the affairs of one's life and world
affairs.
In the current state of what I would call "new age" thinking, you have
a conglomeration of spirit guides, elementals, ascended masters,
aliens, and all sorts of supposedly spiritual hierarchies, i.e.
Councils of Sirius, Order of Melichizedek, etc. More germane to this
group, spirit guides, seem to have a number of different descriptions
and behaviours. If I dig down with three different people as to their
understanding of what guides are, I get 3 different explanations.
Personally I don't think demons are any more real or less real then
guides, angels or any other entity / energy out there. It's more
about where your conciousness goes to or what your conciousness
allows.
Lagartija
Nick Argall
> Nick, thanks for the book reference. I took a looksy at the CNT web
> site. Interesting stuff.
Thanks for reminding me there's a website for that stuff, I remember reading
some useful stuff by students of Mantak Chia, perhaps that's where it was.
> It just seems that every culture, every religion and the people that
> occupy them have their own pantheon of non-physical entities that play
> a role, directly or impersonal in the affairs of one's life and world
> affairs.
Yep.
> In the current state of what I would call "new age" thinking, you have
> a conglomeration of spirit guides, elementals, ascended masters,
> aliens, and all sorts of supposedly spiritual hierarchies, i.e.
> Councils of Sirius, Order of Melichizedek, etc. More germane to this
> group, spirit guides, seem to have a number of different descriptions
> and behaviours. If I dig down with three different people as to their
> understanding of what guides are, I get 3 different explanations.
Yep.
> Personally I don't think demons are any more real or less real then
> guides, angels or any other entity / energy out there. It's more
> about where your conciousness goes to or what your conciousness
> allows.
Indeed. I tend to avoid the anthropomorphic 'guide' just as much as I avoid
the 'demon'. I think this has to do with a diminished feeling on my part
that it's a useful frame of reference. I mean, that's what these different
terminologies are, in my opinion, is different cognitive toolkits for
working with a set of spiritual phenomena.
Whether you call them 'angels and demons' or 'energetic vibrations' or
whatever is a choice best made (IMO) on which vocabulary allows you to
engage most effectively with the problem.
Nick
John Fitzsimons
>On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 15:40:05 +1000, John Fitzsimons
><xpm4s...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
>>The "ignorance is bliss" argument. Not one I agree with. A better
>>approach would be for people to get a better understanding of such
>>things.
>One doesn't have to walk into a fire to know they could get burnt.
>Nor does anyone have to spend their time, energy and resources
>pursuing something that they feel is not right for them. It's not
>ignorance necessarily, but choosing what is of value for one's life.
Certainly. One can choose to remain ignorant.
>>Every person's guides are on different levels. Some are further along
>>the path than others. Added to that it is much easier for people to
>>contact spirit people lower on the spiritual ladder, than higher.
>>As one learns one is able to more easily contact "higher" entities.
>I tend to think that the scale of variance isn't that great.
I was talking about discarnate people.
> Example,
>there are many different types of people in the United States, still
>they all live in the same place.
There are many people on the same spiritual level. In the physical
world and in the non physical world. There is however a huge variance
in spirituality between entities from lower realms and higher realms.
>Regardless of where I'm at it makes sense to aim for the highest.
I find that many people who want to contact "spirit" don't know and/
or care what level spirit is from.
< snip >
John Fitzsimons
>On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 15:40:04 +1000, John Fitzsimons
><xpm4s...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
>>On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 07:15:37 -0400, Lagartija <s...@sss.com> wrote:
>>>Curious to know what the word is regarding the existence of demons in
>>>spiritualism.
>>I would think that the majority would not have any belief in demons.
>>Those that do almost certainly have a christian background. One where
>>such belief was common.
>So the belief and existence of demons is particular to Christianity?
I didn't say that. No need to put words in my mouth. I said "almost
certainly". Not "definitely".
>Not so, read the old testament, look at other relgiions and esoteric
>orders. Their existence is acknowledged in most.
Many religious beliefs include a belief in negative spirits. Some call
them "demons" and some don't. My experience suggests that most
Spiritualists fall into the latter category.
John Fitzsimons
>On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 15:40:05 +1000, John Fitzsimons
><xpm4s...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
< snip >
>Your entitled to your concept of "demons", as I said it's a loaded
>term. Why would it be so difficult to consider their existence as
>seperate from man.
Because I see no reason to believe in them as a separate existence to
man. I have however seen numerous discarnate people "dress up" as
"demons".
This can be highly amusing. For those who want to believe in them
however it can be quite terrifying.
> The variation of life forms, high and low is
>great. You believe in angels, but not demons?
Nope. I see no reason to believe in angels. Spirit people however can
create "angel" forms. I sometimes dress up as an angel myself if it is
needed to help move some earthbound person to the spirit world.
Lagartija
<xpm4s...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 09:02:37 -0400, Lagartija <s...@sss.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 15:40:05 +1000, John Fitzsimons
>><xpm4s...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
>
>>>The "ignorance is bliss" argument. Not one I agree with. A better
>>>approach would be for people to get a better understanding of such
>>>things.
>
>>One doesn't have to walk into a fire to know they could get burnt.
>>Nor does anyone have to spend their time, energy and resources
>>pursuing something that they feel is not right for them. It's not
>>ignorance necessarily, but choosing what is of value for one's life.
>
>Certainly. One can choose to remain ignorant.
Yep. Also, once can choose not to associate with spirits.
>
>>>Every person's guides are on different levels. Some are further along
>>>the path than others. Added to that it is much easier for people to
>>>contact spirit people lower on the spiritual ladder, than higher.
>
>>>As one learns one is able to more easily contact "higher" entities.
>
>>I tend to think that the scale of variance isn't that great.
>
>I was talking about discarnate people.
So was I. What I was referring to was the difference between the
lower spirits and the supposedly higher ones. It's my belief that the
difference isn't all that great.
>> Example,
>>there are many different types of people in the United States, still
>>they all live in the same place.
>
>There are many people on the same spiritual level. In the physical
>world and in the non physical world. There is however a huge variance
>in spirituality between entities from lower realms and higher realms.
>
>>Regardless of where I'm at it makes sense to aim for the highest.
>
>I find that many people who want to contact "spirit" don't know and/
>or care what level spirit is from.
>
People who want to or many people involved with ?
Lagartija
Lagartija
<xpm4s...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
>Many religious beliefs include a belief in negative spirits. Some call
>them "demons" and some don't. My experience suggests that most
>Spiritualists fall into the latter category.
>
>Regards, John.
Most religions make a distinction.
Lagartija
Lagartija
<xpm4s...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 09:06:20 -0400, Lagartija <s...@sss.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 15:40:05 +1000, John Fitzsimons
>><xpm4s...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
>
>< snip >
>
>>Your entitled to your concept of "demons", as I said it's a loaded
>>term. Why would it be so difficult to consider their existence as
>>seperate from man.
>
>Because I see no reason to believe in them as a separate existence to
>man. I have however seen numerous discarnate people "dress up" as
>"demons".
Some people ("spirit people" included ) are ugly enough that they
don't need to dress up.
>This can be highly amusing. For those who want to believe in them
>however it can be quite terrifying.
>
>> The variation of life forms, high and low is
>>great. You believe in angels, but not demons?
>
>Nope. I see no reason to believe in angels. Spirit people however can
>create "angel" forms. I sometimes dress up as an angel myself if it is
>needed to help move some earthbound person to the spirit world.
>
>Regards, John.
Dress up? You mean with wings and goassamer gowns? Alright, sorry I
thought you had a belief in Angels.
Lagartija
Ian
> On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:50:56 +1000, John Fitzsimons
> <xpm4s...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 09:02:37 -0400, Lagartija <s...@sss.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 15:40:05 +1000, John Fitzsimons
> >><xpm4s...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>>The "ignorance is bliss" argument. Not one I agree with. A better
> >>>approach would be for people to get a better understanding of such
> >>>things.
> >
> >>One doesn't have to walk into a fire to know they could get burnt.
> >>Nor does anyone have to spend their time, energy and resources
> >>pursuing something that they feel is not right for them. It's not
> >>ignorance necessarily, but choosing what is of value for one's life.
> >
> >Certainly. One can choose to remain ignorant.
> Yep. Also, once can choose not to associate with spirits.
Consciously perhaps but that wouldn't make us free from spirit
choosing to associate with us.
> >>>Every person's guides are on different levels. Some are further along
> >>>the path than others. Added to that it is much easier for people to
> >>>contact spirit people lower on the spiritual ladder, than higher.
> >
> >>>As one learns one is able to more easily contact "higher" entities.
> >
> >>I tend to think that the scale of variance isn't that great.
> >
> >I was talking about discarnate people.
>
> So was I. What I was referring to was the difference between the
> lower spirits and the supposedly higher ones. It's my belief that the
> difference isn't all that great.
I don't think you'll find many mediums who would agree with that,
anyone with mediumistic abilities that have been aware of a variety
of spirit will soon come to the realisation of just how much difference
there is between a (genuine) guide for example and a lower negative spirit.
<snip>
Lagartija
wrote:
>I don't think you'll find many mediums who would agree with that,
>anyone with mediumistic abilities that have been aware of a variety
>of spirit will soon come to the realisation of just how much difference
>there is between a (genuine) guide for example and a lower negative spirit.
>
><snip>
>
I tend to think the differences are not gradations in perfection or
spiritual development. It seems it has more to do with personality
and as said in another post, spirituality.
Lagartija
Claire
> On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:50:56 +1000, John Fitzsimons
> <xpm4s...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 09:06:20 -0400, Lagartija <s...@sss.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 15:40:05 +1000, John Fitzsimons
> >><xpm4s...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
> >
> >< snip >
I sometimes dress up as an angel myself if it is
> >needed to help move some earthbound person to the spirit world.
> >
> >Regards, John.
>
> Dress up? You mean with wings and goassamer gowns?
Pretty FUNNY!!! Yeah, if people believed ballerina's could save them from
themselves, John would put on a pink tutu and slippers! <ROTFL>
Claire
Ronald
"John Fitzsimons" <xpm4s...@sneakemail.com> wrote in message
news:fvqtjv8p5pjtbhbjs...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 17:54:10 GMT, "Ronald" <RDKR...@prodigy.net>
> wrote:
> >Francis MacNutt, a religious minister, is the author of a book called
> >"Deliverance from Evil Spirits"
>
> Publisher ? ISBN ?
Published by Chosen Books
ISBN 0-8007-9232-7
Ronald
> People can have certain energies stored up inside them, and these energies
> are like a festering boil, a bit of acid or pus that sits underneath the
> skin. If you treat the problems caused by that trapped energy, the
> surrounding 'scar tissue' may soften to the point where the energy breaks
> free and is released. An especially peaceful and safe healing environment
> is actually more likely to allow the person to lower their defences enough
> to have it all come out in one intense blast.
Those energies are reported to flow through more conductive pathways in the
body called chakras. When blocked the energy build up you describe occurs,
there are many tactics for releasing this blocked energy. From my
experience,
being in an area where there are higher concentrations of subtle energies
seems
to release any built up energies I carry around. Where I live this seems to
be
in areas near streams or where underground streams converge. What some
people refer to as strong grid areas.
It's almost like being in that environment reduces the pressure differential
so that blocked energy can flow out.
Ronald
Nick Argall
>
> It's almost like being in that environment reduces the pressure
differential
> so that blocked energy can flow out.
Yes.
A hot bath with Epsom salts in it is also a very useful, gentle purifier.
Nick
John Fitzsimons
wrote:
>"Lagartija" <s...@sss.com> wrote in message
>news:ajeekvs7q9jic8uh9...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:50:56 +1000, John Fitzsimons
< snip >
>Pretty FUNNY!!! Yeah, if people believed ballerina's could save them from
>themselves, John would put on a pink tutu and slippers! <ROTFL>
Now
that
is
very
silly.
You
know
that
>
my
tutu
>
is
<
<
<
blue. :-)
Claire
> On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:46:14 GMT, "Claire" <zenas...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >"Lagartija" <s...@sss.com> wrote in message
> >news:ajeekvs7q9jic8uh9...@4ax.com...
>
> >> On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:50:56 +1000, John Fitzsimons
>
> < snip >
>
> Now
>
> that
>
> is
>
> very
>
> silly.
>
> You
>
> know
>
> that
>
> >
>
> my
>
> tutu
>
> >
>
> is
>
> <
>
> <
>
> <
>
> blue. :-)
I thought you went out and were thinking of buying yourself a new outfit.
In violet...Hee, hee. Maybe, if I'm any good at dancing, I'll take your
hand-me downs and wear a blue outfit for a while. Although your other
students can probably lay better claim to your tutu than me. I just might
sneak in and steal it when they're not looking. ;-) Then you'd better have
that violet tutu around or you'll be NAKED!!!
<ROTFL>
Claire
>
John Fitzsimons
>On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:50:56 +1000, John Fitzsimons
><xpm4s...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
>>On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 09:02:37 -0400, Lagartija <s...@sss.com> wrote:
< snip >
>Yep. Also, once can choose not to associate with spirits.
For some people that isn't an option. They are so psychically "open"
that they are constantly "consciously" aware of spirit.
< snip >
>What I was referring to was the difference between the
>lower spirits and the supposedly higher ones. It's my belief that the
>difference isn't all that great.
It is my experience that the difference can be huge.
< snip >
>>I find that many people who want to contact "spirit" don't know and/
>>or care what level spirit is from.
>People who want to or many people involved with ?
Well, people who want to contact spirit often don't know (want to
know ?) that spirit people are on different vibratory levels. Those
who are involved often know but don't want to put in the extra
effort to contact the higher vibratory people.
One would hope that the more experienced mediums, compared
to those who "mess about" with spirit, would intentionally/
unintentionally be trying to contact the "higher" entities. That
isn't always the case though.
John Fitzsimons
< snip >
Could you explain what you mean here more fully ? What's the
difference between "spiritual development" and "spirituality" ?
Regards, John.
John Fitzsimons
wrote:
>"Lagartija" <s...@sss.com> wrote in message
>news:3rdekvgj1oqb7qqv9...@4ax.com...
< snip >
>> Yep. Also, once can choose not to associate with spirits.
>Consciously perhaps but that wouldn't make us free from spirit
>choosing to associate with us.
< snip >
< ROFL >
Very nicely put Ian. :-)
Regards, John.
Lagartija
Spiritual development as it relates to the perfection of the soul and
the attainments of one's being (spirit,soul,etc whatever terms) as it
moves higher on the chain of spiritual evolution. Spirituality as it
relates to one's sense of ethics, sacredness and action.
Lagartija