A question about Deities
Bob Thomson
I'm not sure if this is the ideal place to bring this topic, hence the
attempt at limited, and hopefully relevant, cross-posting (no flame wars
intended)...
OK, I've been working on clans (families) of Deities, and I'm beginning
to see a few groups... one would be (loosely and more or less well)
described as the Olympians according to the more archaic versions of
Ancient Greek legends, and another one would be a group of Indo-European
Deities.
I've achieved a few results with the presently available (translated)
Greek texts, but unfortunately they don't seem to tell this part of the
story well, except that the Titans should be another clan and possibly
corresponding to those Indo-European Deities... the story would be that
there has been conflicts in the past between those groups. When trying
to decipher all this, another issue is the way Greeks apparently giving
several names to the same Deities, corresponding to various "eras" in
the World Above, like I was shown that Gaia and Hera are two different
names for the same Deity.
I'm specifically interested in Rhea, considered as a Titan who willingly
chose to join the Olympians, and her three children Phoebus, Phoebe
(twins) and Eos... and after some work, I think that can be considered
as Leto, Artemis and Apollo (the third sister having been forgotten in
the more recent versions of the Greek legends). A clue for finding a
Deity closest to Rhea/Leto in one or more Indo-European pantheons would
be most welcome.
Interestingly, one Asatruar once told me that according to elements
given by Up Above, Leto (also known as Lilith, or Lilitu, or so it seems
after having done quite a bit of personal work on her) was benefitting
from some sort of recognition (for lack of better words) within the
group of Norse Deities. I'm tempted to consider this as another clue
that she might originate from the Indo-European group of Deities.
--
Bob Thomson
mark
> Hello
Hi.
>
> I'm not sure if this is the ideal place to bring this topic, hence the
> attempt at limited, and hopefully relevant, cross-posting (no flame wars
> intended)...
This or soc.religion.paganism seems jes' fine.
>
> OK, I've been working on clans (families) of Deities, and I'm beginning
> to see a few groups... one would be (loosely and more or less well)
> described as the Olympians according to the more archaic versions of
> Ancient Greek legends, and another one would be a group of Indo-European
> Deities.
>
> I've achieved a few results with the presently available (translated)
> Greek texts, but unfortunately they don't seem to tell this part of the
> story well, except that the Titans should be another clan and possibly
> corresponding to those Indo-European Deities... the story would be that
A lot of it seems to be the deities of the local residents; then, a new
group of people invade, and their gods are the "good" ones, and the old
residents' deities bad, or at least "lesser" (i.e, the Aesar and the
Vanar).
> there has been conflicts in the past between those groups. When trying
> to decipher all this, another issue is the way Greeks apparently giving
> several names to the same Deities, corresponding to various "eras" in
> the World Above, like I was shown that Gaia and Hera are two different
> names for the same Deity.
I've never seen that suggested. They share elements, but not the same deity.
Don't overly conflate gods (they may not like it).
>
> I'm specifically interested in Rhea, considered as a Titan who willingly
> chose to join the Olympians, and her three children Phoebus, Phoebe
> (twins) and Eos... and after some work, I think that can be considered
> as Leto, Artemis and Apollo (the third sister having been forgotten in
I have grave doubts about that. Certainly nothing I've ever read in English
suggests it.
> the more recent versions of the Greek legends). A clue for finding a
> Deity closest to Rhea/Leto in one or more Indo-European pantheons would
> be most welcome.
>
> Interestingly, one Asatruar once told me that according to elements
> given by Up Above, Leto (also known as Lilith, or Lilitu, or so it seems
That is one I absolutely would *not* make.
<snip>
mark
Neolithic
wrote:
Disregard the Lilith bit, its Persian, at least as far as the Aseir
go.
I recall an individual, I suspect the very same person that you've
met, who had this idea that "Lilith" existed in the Norse milieu....
You'll do far better considering Freya who was, according to the
Sagas, indeed from another clan, the Vanir who joined the Aseir...or
Jord the Jotun mother of Thor.
Blessadur
Neolithic
Neolithic
This Asatruar agrees with you.
Neolithic
Gemeral Sam
> On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 00:50:38 +0200, Bob Thomson <n...@adresski.ru>
Searles is right about the Druids having deities,
such deities were not in fact male/female generdized -
Our Druids were far too wise for that.
Cormac Mac Carthaigh
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
WARNING: THIS POSTER, MICHAEL McGRATH (GEMERAL SAM) IS A NEO-NAZI .
http://www.skeptictank.org/hs/apgnhw1.htm
http://oda.chez-alice.fr/geismgrr.htm
http://fakedruid.org/
http://www.geocities.com/irishafa/gallery.html
http://guydecervens.blogspot.com/2007/05/michael-mcgrath-neo-nazi-and...
http://www.keltia.de/Avalon/Internationale_News/Geis/geis.html#deutsch
http://groups.msn.com/CromansGrove/apada2.msnw
http://orderofdruidsinireland.wetpaint.com/
Noinden
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Wow you really are ignorant of the Indo-European speaking people who
invaded Eire ;) Ignorant, Bigot, and a broken kneed Drunk.... the
trifecta of Fail
Gemeral Sam
Troll
Doug Freyburger
>
> OK, I've been working on clans (families) of Deities, and I'm beginning
> to see a few groups... one would be (loosely and more or less well)
> described as the Olympians according to the more archaic versions of
> Ancient Greek legends, and another one would be a group of Indo-European
> Deities.
>
> I've achieved a few results with the presently available (translated)
> Greek texts, but unfortunately they don't seem to tell this part of the
> story well, except that the Titans should be another clan and possibly
> corresponding to those Indo-European Deities... the story would be that
> there has been conflicts in the past between those groups.
In Asatru when there was a conflict between the clan of the
Aesir and the clan of the Vanir they ended up calling it a
draw and merging clans. When there was a conflict between
Surt's team (sometimes I call them the Jotnar sometimes I
call them the Thursar but in both cases it's the same issues
as the word "Titan" being more generic for the class of beings
that includes both the dieties and their opponents) they ended
up in an on-going war.
> When trying
> to decipher all this, another issue is the way Greeks apparently giving
> several names to the same Deities, corresponding to various "eras" in
> the World Above, like I was shown that Gaia and Hera are two different
> names for the same Deity.
Naming problems occur across cultures and across
centuries. Who's who is hard to tell. Anyone who has
practiced shamanic direct contact probably has a good
handle on the problem of name drift. Who was that
spirit anyways ...
> I'm specifically interested in Rhea, considered as a Titan who willingly
> chose to join the Olympians, and her three children Phoebus, Phoebe
> (twins) and Eos... and after some work,
In Asatru both Skadhi and Gerd are converted from Surt's
team to become married/adopted into the Aesir.
> I think that can be considered
> as Leto, Artemis and Apollo (the third sister having been forgotten in
> the more recent versions of the Greek legends). A clue for finding a
> Deity closest to Rhea/Leto in one or more Indo-European pantheons would
> be most welcome.
There are plenty of parallels to be found with the Asatru
lore as expected. It's yet another Indo-Iranian culture. I
have not put much effort into mapping who's who through
name drift and I don't know how much meaning to attach
to mapping by function the way the Romans did.
> Interestingly, one Asatruar once told me that according to elements
> given by Up Above, Leto (also known as Lilith, or Lilitu, or so it seems
> after having done quite a bit of personal work on her) was benefitting
> from some sort of recognition (for lack of better words) within the
> group of Norse Deities.
Ultimately personal contact with the spirit is the source of
all lore, but there are quality filters based on how a personal
gnosis fits the rest of the existing lore. As Neolithic pointed
out mapping Leto among the Aesir isn't a high quality view
based on pre-existing lore. In a couple of centuries that may
well change.
The question of recognition is interesting. What does it mean?
Is it about interest in humans? Thor and Odin seem quite
interested in humans in this era. Plenty of folks contact them
easily or often.
> I'm tempted to consider this as another clue
> that she might originate from the Indo-European group of Deities.
It does add up. If Artemis is the archer then the archers among
the Aesir by marriage, adoption and/or birth would be Skadhi
who was born into Surt's team and Ull who was born into Odin's
team.
Bob Thomson
Thanks to all for your answers. They all helped me, one way or another.
Due to the type of answers, the limits of cross-posting and the stage of
my searches, maybe it's just better to provide a broad feed-back around
what especially stuck my mind and to clarify a few things.
I happen to work (in a totally informal way) with a few seers and
practitioners of things of Spirit. Most of them could be seen as shamans
in a broad sense of the term, and especially neo-shamans (like myself) -
not really fond of labels and alls. It enables me to cross-check things
as much as I can and to avoid being stuck within one given cultural set
of references.
As a rule of thumb, I tend to follow the teachings provided by the World
Above first, and it's only then that - should I feel the need to - I try
to see what some books may have to say. I subjectively think that it has
proved interesting to do things that way, for instance on Sacred Sex.
For instance, I think I would have been totally unable to work on the
Olympian clan the way I did so far if I had started with books. It's
when I was made to realize first-hand and from another source that Hera
and Gaia were the same spirit with somewhat different concepts attached
to Her that I tried to see if this two generations gap in legends could
happen elsewhere. It proved true with Apollo / Phoebus and Artemis /
Phoebe thanks to the third child of the couple, their sister Eos. Rhea's
description is quite short (mostly her name, Rhea or the shining one)
but totally fits with Leto / Lilitu (who can be quite a vamp if you see
my point) and nothing is known from her husband Hyperion, so there was
no strong contradiction to lift between the books as they have been
transmitted to us and those experiences.
Also, they Up Above don't give us entire chapters of books to be copied
verbatim... they give clues and let the poor incarnated souls try to
figure them out all, it's really a puzzle and They obviously want it to
be that way. So be it, otherwise where would all the fun be?
Now, about a few elements in answers looking specifically interesting to
me right now...
The idea about the Deities of local residents seems to be something that
has happened historically, in ordinary reality, but one should not
underestimate the possibilities of communication, not only for the
people involved during large chunks of time who migrated more than once,
but all the more for the Spirits concerned, who (among other things)
always answer the way they do based on who the seeker is and show what
they want to show, when they want to do so. We might also tend to
underestimate the real age of all those legends, and I feel that a clue
pointing to the same conclusion is how Greek legends, the way they are
for us to read now, seem to be too much fragmented to easily bring back
the puzzle's pieces together again. Syncretism is tempting, filled with
pitfalls... maybe practice can help.
I could not help noticing the clue about Lilitu's origin linked to
Persia. The tip about her having "some recognition" from Norse Deities
came from a person which rigor I value and I could personally and
directly check the latter's "credentials" with Freya. Oh, and that
personal experience also tends to indicate that one should not equate
Lilitu with Freya, among other things, but in fact I can't tell, since
Freya did not bring me any more stuff. I had not mentioned Persia, I
only had a rather strong intuition about that bit but did not find
traces of that in books on her yet.
About the genderization of Deities... Well, maybe the present forms of
the Druidic tradition don't allow to switch concepts easily with other
traditions. I don't know if many of its followers would like one to
bring forth the apparent equivalence between Kali and Brigid, for
instance, which was brought up to me in a convincing way. (I still
vividly remember the ride with her on her mare.) But to my knowledge,
there is more to gender and Deities than meets the eye, for sure. I and
a few others could meet beings who can switch genders at will and it may
be more common than one would think. It's also a tricky issue to me,
since among the three ones that I could meet and talk with, see or hear
about so far, at least one or two should be considered as avatars (sorry
for using such a heterogeneous vocabulary) of Apollo and probably Vishnu
(of which the Buddha would be an avatar) - and the third "case" may also
be one, though not aware of it. Apollo's curious switching ability is
mentioned in some ancient Greek text so it fits with this discovery of
mine, but I did not find any other details in books yet (Wikipedia's
article does not give any reference for that bit).
Now, about Lilith... well, she's taught me quite a few things so far,
but she has remained mostly secretive about her specific story, which is
only natural. As Leto, she's has been heavily involved on the bitter
fight between the Titans and the Olympians. There seems to have been at
least three clans, but maybe one is the Olympians and the two other ones
are what we got when the Titans sided either with or against the Olympians.
The alliance I'm speaking about would be between the Olympians and
Lilith's original group (or the part of the latter that wanted to go
that way, at least) and would take, among other things, the form of an
incestuous union between her child Apollo and her. It would be part of a
setup designed to bring a total harmony for everybody, since Zeus,
father of Apollo, is married to Hera and the latter also would be Zeus'
mother since she'd be Gaia. And we all read the bit in Greek legends
about the fate of Ouranos and Chronos so the whole thing looks really neat.
--
Bob Thomson
mark
> On Jun 24, 7:41 pm, Noinden <thear...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jun 24, 1:38 pm, Gemeral Sam <PhotographerOfKilke...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > On Jun 24, 9:06 am, Neolithic <neolithicnos...@email.com> wrote:
>> > > On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 00:50:38 +0200, Bob Thomson <n...@adresski.ru>
>> > > wrote:
>> > Searles is right about the Druids having deities,
>> > such deities were not in fact male/female generdized -
>> > Our Druids were far too wise for that.- Hide quoted text -
I have trouble with that statement, given the mentions of the Druids in the
Irish pre-Christian chronicles. Everyone's got a gender, there.
>>
>> > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> Wow you really are ignorant of the Indo-European speaking people who
>> invaded Eire ;) Ignorant, Bigot, and a broken kneed Drunk.... the
>> trifecta of Fail
>
> Troll
They've got a smiley. What else is new?
mark
Gemeral Sam
I pay absolutely no attention to the fanciful scibblings of the
monkish chroniclers in Dark Ages Ireland. You should read Giraldus
Cambriensis to see what I mean (if you can delve beneath his words).
In any case we have our own sources come down...
Gemeral Sam
At least you are thinking and writing seriously -
Keep up the Good Work !
They say there was a lot of intercourse between ancient Ireland and
Greece,
perhaps you might find it profitable to bear this in mind as you work
things out
in a serious, intellectual and academic fashion.
Of course here you are casting pearls before swine,
Ignorant, uneducated Fools like Dan Willows Felber.
Who doesn't even know where Ireland is !
Felber is just a lazy lout of a Marxist,
Biting the hand that feed him - the USA -
As a Green Card holder, possibly not even that but an illegal alien
Living off Welfare, Food Vouchers,
and the generosity of his hard-working woman,
He is a typical Marxist weakling -
Observe that weak men always gravitate together to the Left
For mutual protection,
The Druid, the Strongest Man, stands alone !
But he contributes taxes too and keeps the rest of society going
such as weakling fools like Dan Willows Felber,
who is a prime example of the cruel Swiss German,
WHO DOESN'T EVEN KNOW WHERE IRELAND IS !!!
Gemeral Sam
wrote:
We need more Members like Bob Thomson here,
Committed Researchers who leave personality attacks and slander out of
it,
People who contribute to our understanding of the ancient world, of
Druidry,
and of our own part and place in it all.
Searles O'Dubhain is another such worthy contributor and member -
we are honoured and appreciative to have such people,
People too like Ruiseart and Ceit
who have now bravely taken it in hand
to revive and organise Druidry
in their native Scotland :
Those who wish to learn Druidry,
to become Druids,
could do worse than to contact Ruiseart and Ceit
and join their Gaelic Druid Order,
One of the finest of its kind in the world,
and those who can afford it
should send contributions to Ruiseart and Ceit
to help them spread the Word
in that ancient homeland of Druidry,
like Ireland too.
Now is the time for us all to Get Real here,
to the honour and glory of Druidry.
Michael McGrath
Archdruid of Ireland
Hereditary, Traditional, Elected.
PS: Yes I am only human,
I have my idiosyncracies too,
but I do my best for Druids and Druidry
and always will.
Gemeral Sam
And if Con Connor
had to put as much resources
into positively and critically developing his Druidschool,
and asking our help in so doing,
it would have been gladly and freely given.
All we all have to do
is Give and Take
and make allowances for our fellow humans,
understanding them all,
for we're all on the one road together,
instead of this insane continuous hysterical abuse,
slandering and scandalizing of our fellows
who are caught in this Valley of Tears
just like ourselves.
then Druidry would be a Force for Good in the World
in no time at all.
Here's wishing Con all the best
in his future endeavours,
and if he happens along our way
There'll always be an Open Door
and a glass on the table for him -
because Con has much to contribute to Druidry too -
he has proved himself a formidable foe,
now let Con prove himself a formidable friend
of Druids and Druidry everywhere,
Personally, I never met Con,
Maybe, someday...
Ar Aghaidh le Drui na h-Eireann !
Michael McGrath
Archdruid of ireland,
Hereditary, Traditional and Elected.
Bob Thomson
>> OK, I've been working on clans (families) of Deities, and I'm beginning
>> to see a few groups... one would be (loosely and more or less well)
>> described as the Olympians according to the more archaic versions of
>> Ancient Greek legends, and another one would be a group of Indo-European
>> Deities.
OK, thanks for pointing to me through the Aesir that there also is this
legend about two groups of Deities having first fought, then joined
together in Norse mythology, which surface I must reckon I barely scratched.
>> (...)
>> I'm specifically interested in Rhea, considered as a Titan who willingly
>> chose to join the Olympians, and her three children Phoebus, Phoebe
>> (twins) and Eos... and after some work, I think that can be considered
>> as Leto, Artemis and Apollo (the third sister having been forgotten in
>> the more recent versions of the Greek legends). A clue for finding a
>> Deity closest to Rhea/Leto in one or more Indo-European pantheons would
>> be most welcome.
>>
>> Interestingly, one Asatruar once told me that according to elements
>> given by Up Above, Leto (also known as Lilith, or Lilitu, or so it seems
>> after having done quite a bit of personal work on her) was benefitting
>>from some sort of recognition (for lack of better words) within the
>> group of Norse Deities. I'm tempted to consider this as another clue
>> that she might originate from the Indo-European group of Deities.
> Disregard the Lilith bit, its Persian, at least as far as the Aseir
> go.
Well, the Persians could be seen as the South-Eastern tip of the vast
regions covered by Indo-Europeans, could you please indicate me where to
dig?
> I recall an individual, I suspect the very same person that you've
> met, who had this idea that "Lilith" existed in the Norse milieu....
Well, it was Randgrithr who told me that. It was from personal spiritual
experience, not merely an idea. Could you please bring more details?
> You'll do far better considering Freya who was, according to the
> Sagas, indeed from another clan, the Vanir who joined the Aseir...or
> Jord the Jotun mother of Thor.
Maybe I'm going to end up with Freya, I was more inclined to see Freya
as loosely equivalent to Aphrodite...
--
Bob Thomson
Bob Thomson
Thanks for the warm and poetic welcome... I could definitely feel an
Irish atmosphere in it.
--
Bob Thomson (presently living in another Celtic land, Cornouaille)
Randgrithr
> Neolithic a écrit :
> Well, it was Randgrithr who told me that. It was from personal spiritual
> experience, not merely an idea. Could you please bring more details?
I don't recall the exact verbiage regarding this, but I do vaguely
recall this conversation.
Mind you, I don't think all Gods are the same group aspected
differently within respective cultures, or that every God is aspected
somewhere else. And I CERTAINLY am no monotheist.
What I do believe is that as people migrate, they bring their Gods
with them. As they change names, as their language and cultures evolve
via trade and/or warfare with other peoples, thus also do their names
and aspects change. Some of the Asatru deities bear remarkable
similarity to the Hellenic pantheon. It's really difficult to argue
against the thought that the Norns and the Fates are different beings
for all that they have different names within the respective
pantheons, for example.
Britt-Mari Näsström's book, "Freyja: Great Goddess of the North"
examines the possibility that migratory people worshiped Her under
other names and with varying but recurrent aspects, the most
recognizable of which is the "Cat/Lion Love/War Goddess" meme. The
vagueness of Her name, "Lady", holds a clue to this. Odin's many names
also point toward a certain amount of travel, and the tale that Freyja
was married to Odin and that He left Her, with both to wander apart
for many years, is well established in the Asatru lore.
One history professor I know who holds a doctorate in Roman history is
of the opinion that the Vanir were in fact the Hittites. I myself have
researched the later tribal history of this area, the Scythians and
Sarmatians/Sauromatians, and believe that if he is not correct, he is
at least very much on the right track.
If you are interested in finding historical perspectives on the
possibility that Freyja is more well travelled than many would
believe, my two reading suggestions are:
Britt-Mari Näsström: Freyja - the Great Goddess of the North
Almqvist & Wiksell International, Sweden, 1995
ISBN 91-22-01694-5
(I believe there is a 2nd edition out now possibly with a more
mainstream publisher, but this used to be VERY hard to find)
Jeannine Davis-Kimball, PhD, with Mona Behan: Warrior Women - An
Archaeologist's Search for History's Hidden Heroines
Warner Books, 2002
ISBN 0-446-52546-4
Mellow out and groove with nature, all... it's being a fantastic
summer for me and the black raspberries are bustin' out all over!
There's gonna be some mead making around these parts real soon now! :)
Randgríðr
Noinden
>
> - Show quoted text -
I would not take the words of this creature so positively. The
positive tends to sour rather fast with him.
As for what you are trying to do. Please share some more of your ideas.
Bob Thomson
>>>> (...)
>
> As for what you are trying to do. Please share some more of your ideas.
Well, it began very simply some years ago, when I was contacted out of
the blue by my first spirit guide... and I had a few great teachers from
both planes, one of which being a woman who lives at the other end of
Brittany and who was my mother in a former life - her spiritual skills
are really impressive. We now work as a team.
Add to that my curiosity and ignorance, a quest for elements from my
past lives relevant to the here and now, as well as healing from a big
antenatal trauma (we shamans use the term "soul recovery") and looking
for my own spiritual genealogy... A few experiences also, mostly simple
things (like IRL transmission of a few messages received from the World
Above)... A search aiming at understanding better a few old stories
about some Deities and their interactions with this planet came on top
of it all in a way that seemed natural to me.
In a nutshell, all this seems to me very much practice-orientated and
corresponding to issues that all explorers of the Spiritual worlds
encounter, one day or another, each with his/her own set of gifts, still
unresolved issues and subjectivity.
I'm not sure I answered your question the way you were expected me to
do, one thing at least, all this work is done in trial and error mode
and I'm not into bringing definite answers. I don't think it would be
relevant to write down pages and pages about hypotheses... That said,
don't hesitate to explain your own questions more in detail, should you
feel the need to.
--
Bob Thomson
Bob Thomson
> On Jun 25, 10:55 am, Bob Thomson <n...@adresski.ru> wrote:
>> Neolithic a écrit :
>
>
>> Well, it was Randgrithr who told me that. It was from personal spiritual
>> experience, not merely an idea. Could you please bring more details?
>
> I don't recall the exact verbiage regarding this, but I do vaguely
> recall this conversation.
I can't do any better - due to a bug in my e-mail software last year, I
could not restore my e-mail data when a disk crashed, despite having
made fresh back-ups.
> Mind you, I don't think all Gods are the same group aspected
> differently within respective cultures, or that every God is aspected
> somewhere else. And I CERTAINLY am no monotheist.
>
> What I do believe is that as people migrate, they bring their Gods
> with them. As they change names, as their language and cultures evolve
> via trade and/or warfare with other peoples, thus also do their names
> and aspects change. Some of the Asatru deities bear remarkable
> similarity to the Hellenic pantheon. It's really difficult to argue
> against the thought that the Norns and the Fates are different beings
> for all that they have different names within the respective
> pantheons, for example.
True, from an academic perspective, it's best to proceed carefully with
all kinds of sources available (texts, archaeological data, etc.) and to
resort to spiritual contacts only when it's becoming obvious that the
material sources won't be enough. Even though Deities would probably see
that as walking on one's head... rrrright, but after all, they can have
their own ideas and plans in mind, not mentioning a sharp sense of
humor, as we all (should) know.
> Britt-Mari Näsström's book, "Freyja: Great Goddess of the North"
> examines the possibility that migratory people worshiped Her under
> other names and with varying but recurrent aspects, the most
> recognizable of which is the "Cat/Lion Love/War Goddess" meme. The
> vagueness of Her name, "Lady", holds a clue to this. Odin's many names
> also point toward a certain amount of travel, and the tale that Freyja
> was married to Odin and that He left Her, with both to wander apart
> for many years, is well established in the Asatru lore.
Hum, it looks like a great track to follow... is anything known about
their children? (Pardon the egoistical question).
This evening, my mind has been busy remembering the details of my (only,
so far) contact in spirit with Freyja. Her physical aspect was totally
in line with what could be expected from a Deity of Nordic people, and
quite different from the palette of appearances of her that Lilith
showed me up to now, yet... I would be a total fool if I was basing my
reasoning on appearances only. A more discriminating element is the
empathic feelings that I got then, and I must say that the latter says
"the crazy idea that I have in mind looks possible, seen from this
perspective". We'll see where it all leads...
> One history professor I know who holds a doctorate in Roman history is
> of the opinion that the Vanir were in fact the Hittites. I myself have
> researched the later tribal history of this area, the Scythians and
> Sarmatians/Sauromatians, and believe that if he is not correct, he is
> at least very much on the right track.
I just had a quick look on a map and yet another element of the puzzle
seems to have clicked in... it blows my mind. I'm really glad you joined
the ongoing thread.
> If you are interested in finding historical perspectives on the
> possibility that Freyja is more well travelled than many would
> believe, my two reading suggestions are:
>
> Britt-Mari Näsström: Freyja - the Great Goddess of the North
> Almqvist & Wiksell International, Sweden, 1995
> ISBN 91-22-01694-5
> (I believe there is a 2nd edition out now possibly with a more
> mainstream publisher, but this used to be VERY hard to find)
>
> Jeannine Davis-Kimball, PhD, with Mona Behan: Warrior Women - An
> Archaeologist's Search for History's Hidden Heroines
> Warner Books, 2002
> ISBN 0-446-52546-4
Well, I'm not sure I can easily find them - it would have to be via an
online book-seller and I lack enough time, but I'll definitely put them
in my list of books to buy, thanks for mentioning them.
> Mellow out and groove with nature, all... it's being a fantastic
> summer for me and the black raspberries are bustin' out all over!
> There's gonna be some mead making around these parts real soon now! :)
>
> Randgríðr
Mead from Brittany has to be as good as your one! Or nearly... that's
the only one I ever drank, anyway, and I really liked it. Count me in
the next time you set up a tasting session on the other side of the pond.
(Coming back to this message later on...)
A neo-shaman friend just rang me in order to explain an interesting
detail that she got about Lilith, maybe it can ring a bell. My friend
has long known how Hera uses to call Lilith (well, Leto) names, like
whore, lesbian and such, while there is no animosity between the two of
them. We had thought that it could be a joke between women, one having
"lend" her husband during the time needed to father three children and
jokingly accusing the other one to want to steal her man.
Today, she got the core elements of an explanation which I'm going to
tell here, the best I can. These offenses are in fact the short form of
a introduction ritual that actually totally respects and praises Lilith,
while referring to a precise moment in time (well, Their time). I
already had a few opportunities to see rituals among Olympians, like the
day where Alpha introduced me to Lilith for instance. I also remember a
crowning with laurel leaves and another one with a tiara (apparently
made in platinum with a central gem). Sorry for maybe going into too
much detail, my point is that I was given to grasp a few things that
tell about how they can see rituals. The longer form of the ritual would
be something along the lines of "Hail Lilith, who was called a whore,
etc. by X.", this moment being a source of pride for Lilith.
Because at that very moment, she said "No!" to a certain male Deity who
wanted to subjugate her (and maybe she then even kicked his balls for
good measure). I already have a few clues about what followed. Her act
marked a milestone in the story of the resistance against the tyrant,
and for quite a while, she paid a harsh price. Yet she stood firm. Later
on, she got some help, including from Hades (I only have subjective
ideas about the details here).
Incidentally, this would indicate how much a story can become garbled,
especially when ideological considerations come into play. This is
because X. is in fact a ruthless and cruel Deity (which we can identify
to El or Re among a few ones) who went nuts and tried to rule the whole
bunch of Deities and Earthlings, I mean he has been the sad father of
monotheism. Even saw how Lilith has been demonized by a few ones? Back
to the original story, X. could also be the Ancient Greeks' Kronos.
I won't go into it more than what I wrote for now, but I have come to
the conclusion that this whole conflict story may know, sooner or later,
a last stage which might be of interest to many here, on Earth. Kronos
may have been put to death by Zeus ages ago, but some local consequences
of this period of evil might still need to be corrected. I only hope
that for this part of the story at least, the original seers who told
the tale were not seeing into a distant future. Has anybody else around
ever played with time during contacts in spirit? OK, maybe I'll deal
with that topic more in depth another time...
--
Bob Thomson
mark
> On Jun 23, 11:50 pm, Bob Thomson <n...@adresski.ru> wrote:
>> Hello
>>
>> I'm not sure if this is the ideal place to bring this topic, hence the
>> attempt at limited, and hopefully relevant, cross-posting (no flame wars
>> intended)...
>>
>> OK, I've been working on clans (families) of Deities, and I'm beginning
>> to see a few groups... one would be (loosely and more or less well)
>> described as the Olympians according to the more archaic versions of
>> Ancient Greek legends, and another one would be a group of Indo-European
>> Deities.
> At least you are thinking and writing seriously -
> Keep up the Good Work !
> They say there was a lot of intercourse between ancient Ireland and
> Greece,
Um, who's "they"? I'm not aware of any. Furthermore, you might note
that "ancient Greece" goes back a looong way. There was just a news item on
the BBC & the Guardian about suggestions that Odysseus' return to Ithaca
was in April of 1178 BCE. The Celts hadn't hit the British Isles at that
time: I forget who hit first, the b-Celts or the p-Celts, but they hit at
around 500 BCE and 250 or 200 BCE.
> perhaps you might find it profitable to bear this in mind as you work
> things out
> in a serious, intellectual and academic fashion.
> Of course here you are casting pearls before swine,
> Ignorant, uneducated Fools like Dan Willows Felber.
> Who doesn't even know where Ireland is !
That's a dumb remark.
>
> Felber is just a lazy lout of a Marxist,
> Biting the hand that feed him - the USA -
Ok, asshole, fuck off. I happen to be a socialist, with anarchist leanings,
and am a third-generation American. *You* sound like a neocon, or, to call
a spade a spade, a neofascist.
> As a Green Card holder, possibly not even that but an illegal alien
> Living off Welfare, Food Vouchers,
> and the generosity of his hard-working woman,
And you make this statement on what evidence? Nothing I've seen here.
> He is a typical Marxist weakling -
And you're a typical what, Ayn Randist (who used med to get to the US, and
to get money, and then described it as "her own merits")?
And if you are, and vote Republican, and are a pagan, you're a *sucker*,
like the "log cabin gays".
> Observe that weak men always gravitate together to the Left
> For mutual protection,
> The Druid, the Strongest Man, stands alone !
Right, with no culture, and no people? Sorry, that's not a druid, that's an
asshole in a video-game fantasy world.
<snip>
mark
Searles O'Dubhain
"mark" <whit...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:Q_GdnZqQHKBNaP_V...@rcn.net...
> Gemeral Sam wrote:
>> On Jun 23, 11:50 pm, Bob Thomson <n...@adresski.ru> wrote:
>>> Hello
>>>
>>> I'm not sure if this is the ideal place to bring this topic, hence the
>>> attempt at limited, and hopefully relevant, cross-posting (no flame wars
>>> intended)...
>>>
>>> OK, I've been working on clans (families) of Deities, and I'm beginning
>>> to see a few groups... one would be (loosely and more or less well)
>>> described as the Olympians according to the more archaic versions of
>>> Ancient Greek legends, and another one would be a group of Indo-European
>>> Deities.
> <snip>
>> At least you are thinking and writing seriously -
>> Keep up the Good Work !
>> They say there was a lot of intercourse between ancient Ireland and
>> Greece,
>
> Um, who's "they"? I'm not aware of any. Furthermore, you might note
> that "ancient Greece" goes back a looong way. There was just a news item
> on
> the BBC & the Guardian about suggestions that Odysseus' return to Ithaca
> was in April of 1178 BCE. The Celts hadn't hit the British Isles at that
> time: I forget who hit first, the b-Celts or the p-Celts, but they hit at
> around 500 BCE and 250 or 200 BCE.
>
One Irish tradition says that the Milesians arrived in Ireland about that
time. Of course, Irish culture was already very old in 1178 BCE. It may or
may not have been Celtic at that time but the homes of the gods on the Boyne
river were already about 2000 years old by then.
Another Irish tradition has some of their ancestors doing battle with the
Athenians.
There's one theory that Homer got his tales from the Irish. There are others
that say they came from the Norse. It's a world whose history is not as
we've been told it was by anyone's book or tradition.
Searles O'Dubhain
Noinden
No you answered it fine for me. I'm a hard polythiest, so I see every
deity as unique, and I also understand quite a lot about the various
IE cultures and their deities. I think it's a great ide what you are
trying to do!
Gemeral Sam
Alright, next time I'll tell a lie in an effort to say something good
about Dan !
Gemeral Sam
Noinden
1X2Willows
> Gemeral Sam wrote:
>>
>> They say there was a lot of intercourse between ancient Ireland and
>> Greece,
>
> Um, who's "they"? I'm not aware of any. Furthermore, you might note
> that "ancient Greece" goes back a looong way. There was just a news item
> on the BBC & the Guardian about suggestions that Odysseus' return to
> Ithaca was in April of 1178 BCE. The Celts hadn't hit the British Isles at
> that time: I forget who hit first, the b-Celts or the p-Celts, but they
> hit at around 500 BCE and 250 or 200 BCE.
Just keep asking him about the Celts in Ireland. His very own personal
nazionalist "theory" in the face of international academia always makes
for a good belly laugh :-}
> Ok, asshole, fuck off. I happen to be a socialist, with anarchist
> leanings, and am a third-generation American. *You* sound like a
> neocon, or, to call a spade a spade, a neofascist.
Only a neofascist would try to set himself up as the leader of a
neofascist party in '88 and - after failing miserably - try the same
stunt in the pagan community by calling himself "Archdruid of Ireland".
Complete with a minimum of five alter egos, so far.
>> He is a typical Marxist weakling -
>
> And you're a typical what, Ayn Randist (who used med to get to the US, and
> to get money, and then described it as "her own merits")?
>
> And if you are, and vote Republican, and are a pagan, you're a *sucker*,
> like the "log cabin gays".
>
>> Observe that weak men always gravitate together to the Left
>> For mutual protection,
>> The Druid, the Strongest Man, stands alone !
>
> Right, with no culture, and no people? Sorry, that's not a druid, that's
> an asshole in a video-game fantasy world.
> <snip>
> mark
Right --- and then some.
"...Never discuss Scientology with the critic. Just discuss his or her
crimes, known and unknown. And act completely confident that those
crimes exist...."
-- L. Ron Hubbard, "Critics of Scientology", November 5, 1967
The overall strategy of this nutjob sounds eerily familiar.
Clearly, he's in it to gain some kind of control he craves.
" You can write that down in your book in great big letters. The only way
you can control anybody is to lie to them."
-- L. Ron Hubbard, "Technique 88"
Follow his delusional writings and you will see.
Bob Thomson
> On Jun 25, 4:03 pm, Bob Thomson <n...@adresski.ru> wrote:
>> Noinden a écrit :
>>
>>>>>> (...)
>>> As for what you are trying to do. Please share some more of your ideas.
>> Well, it began very simply some years ago, when I was contacted out of
>> the blue by my first spirit guide... and I had a few great teachers from
>> both planes, one of which being a woman who lives at the other end of
>> Brittany and who was my mother in a former life - her spiritual skills
>> are really impressive. We now work as a team.
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure I answered your question the way you were expected me to
>> do, one thing at least, all this work is done in trial and error mode
>> and I'm not into bringing definite answers. I don't think it would be
>> relevant to write down pages and pages about hypotheses... That said,
>> don't hesitate to explain your own questions more in detail, should you
>> feel the need to.
>>
>> --
>> Bob Thomson
>
> No you answered it fine for me. I'm a hard polythiest, so I see every
> deity as unique, and I also understand quite a lot about the various
> IE cultures and their deities. I think it's a great ide what you are
> trying to do!
Thanks. Well, I hope you can help me from time to time then, as well as
any other similarly knowledgeable contributors around, and I don't mind
critical points of view, especially when they enable one to improve the
work in progress. :-)
It does not mean I won't try to do my best when doing my homework, but
in some instances, the information I'm looking for has not been
disseminated enough and is going to be hard to find. I was thinking for
instance about Persian references to Lilith, the only things worth a
look that I could find so far were countless references to amulettes
supposed to protect against her, a page from a commercial Website
selling modern reproductions of ancient statues (I'm not sure I can
trust all of their stuff but there were interesting references to
Artemis) and a modern poem by a contemporary (female) Iranian feminist
writer. It made me understand that it probably was during their period
of slavery at Babylon that the Jewish people learned how to fear and
despise Lilith (as part of the older Deities) at a time where the then
current society had become much more hierarchical and partiarchal than
centuries or millenia before. I consider this change as having concerned
a big number of cultures and one of the signs of a period of growing
influence of El / Chronos, which lasted up to a rather recent time and
is not fully over.
Today, I wanted to come back on the main reasons why our legends between
all branches of paganism were seemingly stuck in this similarity /
difference issue, in a way that made reconstruction work so dangerous
yet so tempting, for clarity's sake.
I felt that the very variations observed within a same tradition, even
though external influences were also a factor, were telling, and we
could learn from that. Apart from the copy errors issue for written
traditions, I thought we should never forget that not only tellers, but
also go-betweens between worlds (something I'm more proficient at than
academic studies of IE cultures). Practicing this art and seeing others
doing it, often times on the same subject (a nearly equivalent of double
blind trials in an empirical world) brought me back to a sort of list
that could have come from some "Translation for Dummies" 101 book -
incidentally, my present earthly, paid trade is technical translator.
Some people have rightly pointed at the egotical interferences that can
come from "seers", the most blatant examples of which everybody could
see in the "New Age channeling" business where, especially if one has
approached a few of their areas of interest with minimal rigor, the
stuff they come back with is an everlasting source of laughter.
Also, the context makes much of an information exchange, and many
mistakes can arise from the loss of a context considered by obvious by
the original receivers of a message.
This made me think that there has been a confusion between the different
clans of Deities and a possible chief ruler (Zeus in the Greek legends)
who would also happen to be a member of a given clan.
All this brought me, or so I think, to a better distance from the Greek
version. I had already found out that the archaic versions seemed much
more in tune with what I has been shown so far in the World Above than
attempts at reconstruction (yes, already) made by some Greek "classical
authors" at a much later time. So there was a choice to be made, and I
was lucky enough to have some material that told I'd be better off with
one version instead of the other one.
Now, briefly examining genealogies between the Greek and Norse legends,
in one example of interest to me, in terms of profile, Apollo could be
more or less loosely equated to Baldr, with one problem, his mother.
Applied to the Greek version, he's not the son of Hera, which I'd tend
to equate to Frigg. This is a situation where I'm not at a loss, since I
know of another tradition who makes the very same mistake (the Xians,
who think that because Youshua has been the son of Mary, don't even try
to figure out accurately who is who in spiritual terms and seem to be
happy reasoning only on what happened during one incarnation - talk
about a "spiritual" attitude, they'd be better off lifting their noses).
OK, I just mentioned "foul names" for a few of the Pagans around, but
I'm NOT treating that stuff as a dogma, only ALSO looking at what I
might learn there.
OK, which side is the mistake, since those traditions disagree? Well, in
this very example, the spiritual world has given me a total certainty
that Apollo's mother is indeed Leto, which I equate to Lilith and which
could also be Freyja if the ongoing verifications confirm this idea...
--
Bob Thomson
mark
> deity as unique, and I also understand quite a lot about the various
> IE cultures and their deities. I think it's a great ide what you are
> trying to do!
Heh. I'm a harder polytheist than you! In fact, you might call me a
fundamentalist pagan (Gaia Hypothesis, that is), meaning every planet with
a biosphere has its own deity.
Of course, none of them are the Big Person In The Nightshirt. I mean, Gaia
isn't - if She was, She *surely* would have saved Her dearly beloved
dinosaurs from the comet....
mark
Bob Thomson
in this thread so I won't keep it, but a silent FU2 is not fair to me,
so I'm reinstalling the other NG.
I've been a regular of alt.religion.shamanism since a few years (where
you apparently never posted, at least under your present Usenet nick,
and I don't remember ever reading you there) and considering the scope
of this discussion, is this thread is going to lead anywhere, I know I
need some broader feed-back.
mark a écrit :
> Noinden wrote:
>> On Jun 25, 4:03 pm, Bob Thomson <n...@adresski.ru> wrote:
>>> Noinden a écrit :
> <snip>
>> No you answered it fine for me. I'm a hard polythiest, so I see every
>> deity as unique, and I also understand quite a lot about the various
>> IE cultures and their deities. I think it's a great ide what you are
>> trying to do!
>
> Heh. I'm a harder polytheist than you! In fact, you might call me a
> fundamentalist pagan (Gaia Hypothesis, that is), meaning every planet with
> a biosphere has its own deity.
I'm wary of intellectual concepts and your idea, if taken at face value,
could mean nothing else than a planet-level monotheism. ;-)
One of my results so far is that some Deities seem to come from other
planets than Earth (or in fact, other stars than the Sun). It does not
mean that there is only one per planet. Maybe there is one Primordial
Goddess per planet... in which case the one you name Gaia would be the
Earth's one. To my knowledge, the Ancient Greek's Gaia is a Primordial
Goddess but probably not from here, the local one would be the one named
Freyja in the Nordic traditions.
> Of course, none of them are the Big Person In The Nightshirt. I mean, Gaia
> isn't - if She was, She *surely* would have saved Her dearly beloved
> dinosaurs from the comet....
>
> mark
This makes me remember of somebody who once told me that she remembered
one incarnation as a female diplodocus. She brought back many details,
including her death, suffocated by sulfur gases coming from a volcanic
eruption triggered by the famous comet or meteorite...
One of the interesting things here is that I've always known her soul to
be really very old, mine being comparatively much younger, but she told
me that during this vision, she recognized another, younger diplodocus
on her side as bearing the soul of my spiritual twin sister (the
spiritual age of which I know is the same as mine, as I had already
brought back memories of the twin pregnancy). Which should probably be
considered as a clue that the time Up Above maybe should not be
considered as the time in this world we live in.
--
Bob Thomson
Noinden
Noinden
Is this a pissing match?
Oh and Gia Hypothesis is not hard Poly perse ;) But never mind. Please
tell me you are not a Matrichal pre history type
Gemeral Sam
Bob, they say here in Ireland among the old folk in the Rinn
Gaeltacht, native Irish speaking, that the old Druidfs spoke and wrote
in Greek, and that there was great contact between Greece and Ireland
during ancient Druidic times. The Olympic Games and the Taliteann
Games of Druidic Ireland have massive similarities, and they were
both suppressed by a triumphalist Roman Church.
Bob Thomson
>
>>>>> (...)
>
> Bob, they say here in Ireland among the old folk in the Rinn
> Gaeltacht, native Irish speaking, that the old Druidfs spoke and wrote
> in Greek, and that there was great contact between Greece and Ireland
> during ancient Druidic times. The Olympic Games and the Taliteann
> Games of Druidic Ireland have massive similarities, and they were
> both suppressed by a triumphalist Roman Church.
First, I'm adding alt.religion.asatru to this thread, because it's
becoming more and more directly related to Nordic traditions.
So I salute the persons on a.r.a discovering this thread, and if ever
they are interested about a few more related details, I want to add that
it was started on alt.religion.shamanism, alt.religion.druid and alt.pagan.
It's indeed very interesting to know that Ancient Ireland and Greece
have been heavily communicating, because it's yet another clue that the
same may have happened between Ancient Greek and Nordic people (maybe
something considered as evident by experts but I did not searched about
that bit for now). Your remark made me realize more clearly that I sort
of simply had to publish here the following, which is an account of the
journey I made last night, whether it triggers indifference, interest or
harsh reactions. Whatever, I'm sincerely asking for your feed-back.
The idea of a possible identification of Lilith to Freyja, brought forth
earlier in this thread, had given rise to various shades of reluctance
in my mind, because I was empathically feeling that I may be getting
closer (well, maybe subjectively too close to avoid feeling uneasy about
it) to something that is of high interest to me, understanding more what
there is behind this ancient battle between two groups of Deities before
a lasting peace is settled, for which there are accounts in both the
Norse tradition (about which I'm quite ignorant) as the war between
Aesir and Vanir, and the ancient Greek legends (to which I have given a
bit more time, simply because my searches brought me there earlier) as
the war between Olympian Gods and Titans. I think I got a better
understanding of that thanks to Lilith's help but I'll put it in another
message.
So I allowed myself a moment to ponder about it, asking Lilith (who was
not far) to guide me and to help me for what was adequate for her about
it. Suddenly I was "there", an undefined moment in space and time where
I felt the loss of a number of brave souls like an equal number of kicks
in my stomach. My eyes were wet, this feeling was so intense that I had
to admit it was as if I had indeed known them, and now they were dead.
This uneasy feeling distracted me, I realized it and I felt I'd make a
dive into music, so I mentally began to set up and play a little tune in
order to calm down. The music was fine. Except that the way the tune
originally was, it did not seem to please Lilith (which once gave me a
most startling and brilliant course on playing the zither), as the music
changed by shades, but quickly, until a few seconds later it was quite
different.
First, it was definitely polyphonic - something which I rarely achieve
mentally, even though I've often tried since quite young. I welcomed the
gift of being able to perceive it that distinctly. Secondly, it was a
canon, and a good one at that, it was discreet (not heavy) but a real
one. Thirdly, I heard people singing. It was a germanic language. It was
not German - which I studied for 7 years at secondary school. It was
obviously neither English, nor Dutch either, and it did not really
remind me of any Scandinavian language I had the chance to hear. So I
felt that it had to be Old Norse (which I had briefly examined a couple
of years ago).
The music was about the fallen heroes, it told about those sad events
but at the same time, it was so beautiful that it made the suffering
bearable by turning hearts towards the light. I did my best to try to
recognize a few words, but I could not - it was not given to me to be
able to hear them clearly enough.
Then I realized that I knew this piece and that I could sing it - both
the male (baritone) and female (soprano) voices, which had a simple
accompaniment - which in turn means a long forgotten part of me knew the
lyrics (even though not being able to consciously access them, but I
could hear my spirit sing). I knew all voices (sung or instrumental) of
the piece, the way a conductor of a choir knows it - years ago, I
happened to help, and even replace a few times, the conductor for a very
small (religious) choir, so I knew the basics here. And I definitely had
a (roughly speaking) past-life type memory of it all...
I had the feeling that I was putting more and more of myself into the
act of conducting. I realized I was spontaneously trying to make the
sopranos sing quite one octave higher than what would seem possible,
physiologically speaking, yet they followed. The only moments (very
brief) they seemed not to was when my conscious mind somewhat lost track
of the piece's spirit.
The whole moment lasted five to ten minutes at least, which means a lot
since it was so intense... the melody was not like a simple song with
couplets and a chorus, it was more elaborate, yet cristalline - not a
"melodic meddle" like in many symphonies either. Maybe some parts in
Wagner's tetralogy can give a vague idea of what I'm trying to convey...
OK, thanks to all who read so far! So, (any) feed-back, especially from
the point of view of Asatru tradition, would be highly appreciated.
--
Bob Thomson
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Not what I was looking for, but for now...
http://www.vanadisdottir.dk/asaweb/Hoermigaser/Hoermigaser.htm
FFF
Dirk
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
Remote Viewing classes in London
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Got it. I was thinking of the Finnish band Varttina
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_keS5CgpBT0&feature=related
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
A bit more...
http://www.varttina.com/main.site?action=siteupdate/view&id=30
Äijö's Spell
"Treacherous and cold-skinned viper,
slithering and slit-eyed fiend,
heather-colored belly-crawler,
learn now of your contemptible extraction,
hear and know your lowly provenance:
Earth it was who first uncoiled you,
as it did much crawling vermin,
even many-colored serpents.
As for what your proper hue be
I can't say, nor does it matter
if you were nine different colors,
whether you are black or greyish
or perchance a shade of copper.
Evil, stinging devil's minion,
never shall my blood refresh you,
nor my flesh sustain your body.
Hissing ghoul with jagged backside,
long-fanged, vicious, wicked creature,
find a hillside in the forest,
hide amongst the tender willows,
slink into a stony hollow,
creep, black worm, into a burrow
and take my affliction with you,
carry off the pain I suffer
to those killing fields of battle,
to the very sites of warfare.
Cleanse the grievous wound you gave me,
rid my veins of this your venom.
Henceforth do not hasten thee hither,
never wend your winding way here,
be, foul thing, forever banished. "
Joseph Littleshoes
�ij�'s Spell
"Treacherous and cold-skinned viper,
slithering and slit-eyed fiend,
heather-colored belly-crawler,
learn now of your contemptible extraction,
hear and know your lowly provenance:
Earth it was who first uncoiled you,
as it did much crawling vermin,
even many-colored serpents.
FFF
Dirk
Why pick on the poor ophidian? Part I
Thy feet in mire, thine head in murk,
O man, how piteous thy plight,
The doubts that daunt, the ills that irk,
Thou hast nor wit nor will to fight —
How hope in heart, or worth in work?
No star in sight!
Thy Gods proved puppets of the priest.
"Truth? All's relation!" science sighed.
In bondage with thy brother beast,
Love tortured thee, as Love's hope died
And Love's faith rotted. Life no least
Dim star descried.
Thy cringing carrion cowered and crawled
To find itself a chance-cast clod
Whose Pain was purposeless; appalled
That aimless accident thus trod
Its agony, that void skies sprawled
On the vain sod!
--
Joseph Littleshoes
"The two main political parties ruled alternately as if by tacit
agreement. Politically they were practically indistinguishable (one
perhaps a shade more liberal) but in both camps supporters were more
swayed by personalities than by issues. Both parties were heavily
dependent on the large industrial conglomerates. Corruption was
widespread, the conglomerates dictated economic policy, and with few
outstanding exceptions, politicians' reputations were low."
Randgrithr
THE DOUBLE STANDARD
There are times when fortune doesn't favor the bold
When the lies and the uglier half-truths are told
But knowledge is power, and silence a knife
And none knows this more well than the Valfather's Wife
Now Aegir brewed ale, and he made a fine feast
And Aesir and Vanir from west and from east
Did gather on benches in Aegir's great hall
And Laufey's son Loki sat hating them all
He stewed in his cups and he left then, irate
The Fire-God's warmth turned to fury and hate
He slew Aegir's servant for no reason at all
Then twisted mind turning, re-entered the hall
Each God he now stung toward a fearsome dark end
For none in that hall now hailed Loki as friend
Few knew the reason, and those who did not
Defended their brethren and friends from the sot
Each God and each Goddess spoke small a reply
And Loki on each turned his firey eye
Mocking Aesir and Vanir, flames out of control
Laufey's son hated frith, and was he on a roll!
He struck at each weakness, imagined or real
Quite heedless of what any being might feel
Unless it be anger, embarrassed despair
Few knew it was all Loki had left to share
He spoke of perversion, of failings, of flaws
He bragged that he'd broken each one of their laws
Of cowardice, spoke he; of infidelities,
But COLD was the smile on the Keeper of the Keys!
As each member in turn felt his furious scorn
Loki's only true gift to the sacred was borne
Inspired to bring cruelty, Loki stirred hot strife
But PURE ICE was the smile on the Valfather's Wife!
He turned then to her and spoke of what he'd done
And bragged of his part in the death of her son
He was warned in full measure, he was warned by degrees
Not to play with the wrath of the Keeper of the Keys
Now she sat there, did Frigg, knowing what she must know
Of the death of young Balder from thrown mistletoe
Sitting calm, ever silent, she watched the whole while
Loki raged to forget Frigg's cold, terrible smile
Today Sigyn the faithful tries holding the bowl
And she keeps her bound husband from the Aesirs' control
But sometimes she must leave, and for that little while
A cold reptile drips poison...and he feels her smile
There are times when fortune doesn't favor the bold
When the lies and the uglier half-truths are told
But knowledge is power, and silence a knife
And none knows this more well than the Valfather's Wife
No one knows this more well than the Valfather's Wife
Randgríðr
1X2Willows
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_keS5CgpBT0&feature=related
Good one. Thanks Dirk. That was definitely a 'seed' recommendation.
Dan
fup2 a.r.a.
Neolithic
wrote:
>Gemeral Sam a écrit :
>>
>>>>>> (...)
>>
>> Bob, they say here in Ireland among the old folk in the Rinn
>> Gaeltacht, native Irish speaking, that the old Druidfs spoke and wrote
>> in Greek, and that there was great contact between Greece and Ireland
>> during ancient Druidic times. The Olympic Games and the Taliteann
>> Games of Druidic Ireland have massive similarities, and they were
>> both suppressed by a triumphalist Roman Church.
>
>
>First, I'm adding alt.religion.asatru to this thread, because it's
>becoming more and more directly related to Nordic traditions.
>
>So I salute the persons on a.r.a discovering this thread, and if ever
>they are interested about a few more related details, I want to add that
>it was started on alt.religion.shamanism, alt.religion.druid and alt.pagan.
>
>
>It's indeed very interesting to know that Ancient Ireland and Greece
>have been heavily communicating,
A significant part of the the people who became the Irish passed
through Greece...indeed they sacked the Oracle in Delphi...
Old Irish is similar to Phoenician...
Neolithic
Bob Thomson
Good to know, thanks. At this point, let's say that there is plenty of
already found clues about a relatively high level of communication in
the IE world between what were mostly wrongly seen as isolated cultures.
The people of our times had to get rid of at least two obstacles, the
monotheist systems wanting to abolish up to the memory of anything that
was different (or demonizing it when it couldn't), and later on, closer
to us, the nationalisms based on a modern idea of state that tried to
get more interested in a remote past, like the idea of Gaul becoming
fashionable again in France's third republic in the late 19th and early
20th centuries, to mention something familiar, but in a superficial way
and with a selfish and bloody agenda in mind.
I reckon I could profitably spend countless hours in learning about what
is known from the links between all these ancient cultures, but for now,
knowing that these links were proved to quite some extent is already a
true source of satisfaction.
--
Bob Thomson
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Lots of clues, like a Budhha statue in Sweden or an Inca burial?
http://www.bitsofnews.com/content/view/5773/44/
Of course, that's relatively modern, from the Viking age.
Bob Thomson
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (...)
Sincerely, I don't feel closeness between my journey's piece and this
poem, but thanks for the tip anyway, and I will have a deeper look at
the videos you kindly suggested.
Before we dwelve into this in more detail, would you mind if I first ask
you a question that is important to me?
--
Bob Thomson
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
I was thinking of the language eg Finnish, Suomi etc.
Anyway, anyone is free to ask questions, so go ahead.
Bob Thomson
>> (...)
>>
>> Sincerely, I don't feel closeness between my journey's piece and this
>> poem, but thanks for the tip anyway, and I will have a deeper look at
>> the videos you kindly suggested.
>>
>> Before we dwelve into this in more detail, would you mind if I first
>> ask you a question that is important to me?
>
> I was thinking of the language eg Finnish, Suomi etc.
> Anyway, anyone is free to ask questions, so go ahead.
Thanks.
> FFF
> Dirk
>
> http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
> Remote Viewing classes in London
It's your sig that intrigued me, so I visited the Web site...
Could you please tell me your true stance about the church of
scientology? (Since you are obviously proficient in RV, and their
implication in this field is not a secret at all.)
I'll be ready to explain more why this is important to me (it directly
concerns some practical aspects of the personal research work I've been
talking about here so far) and there is no issue on my side with talking
about it all more in depth on a forum. I know how much any true Asatruar
values truth in words, so all this is asked in a very frank, relaxed and
positive way.
--
Bob Thomson
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
CoS was a very clever synthesis of oldish occult ideas and psychological
techniques. As you probably know, prominent Scientologists were heavily
involved in the early days of military RV projects.
However, CoS seemed to lose its way around 1980. Whatever positive
things it might have had going for it disappeared and it became a fully
cynical money operation.
If you want info on its techniques read:
Geoffrey Filbert's "Excalibur".
http://www.freezoneamerica.org/excal/excal00.html#toc
Bob Thomson
Thanks for letting me know your thoughts.
Well, I have already found a few things, and I'm not sure I'd use the
term clever for their "dianetics", but it's only my point of view.
Like how and when the then young and already ruthless crook LRH got to
know Crowley's Moonchild concept via an Californian occultist who also
was a rocket scientist (by the way, I never tried to search whether this
one had a slight remnant of a German accent and had travelled on
Paperclip airlines) before he eventually sold the idea to A. W. Dulles
and became what he became, with a little help behind the scenes from the
then nascent CIA so that he could recycle his trash science fiction
books and fit a need for a much more ambitious project who received its
death sentence only quite recently. A project on a similar line than the
Raelian movement and OTS in France, only with a bigger bag of bucks in
its pocket because it was a US project.
> As you probably know, prominent Scientologists were heavily
> involved in the early days of military RV projects.
Well, I'd have removed the "RV" here, picky me.
> However, CoS seemed to lose its way around 1980. Whatever positive
> things it might have had going for it disappeared and it became a fully
> cynical money operation.
I see. The most clever pragmatic minds figured out that then, grabbed
what they felt like from it all and went back working to their stuff as
usual.
> If you want info on its techniques read:
> Geoffrey Filbert's "Excalibur".
> http://www.freezoneamerica.org/excal/excal00.html#toc
It looks like an interesting site, thanks. It should enable me to
understand more accurately in which context a few things that I read on
forums were written.
Well, I got info from a few RV techniques by reading and studying the
manual, got hands-on training on visual Reiki and a few other tricks,
and basically am an ever-learning person, but this is not where I got
the bulk of my training - it's from my teachers, spirit guides from the
World Above and fellow shamans (mostly neo-shamans), especially from the
Siberian tradition. I was told the Nordic and Siberian traditions are
still quite close and eventually come from the same roots, so hopefully
this will help me when studying more specifically Nordic shamanism.
As a last remark (we may leave it at that and there is nothing personal
in it), I could not help noticing that on the other hand, scientologists
practicing those techniques (I don't specifically mean RV practicionners
here) somewhat seemed to me to be to shamans more or less what sharks
are to dolphins, irreconcilable and mutually foreign species.
--
Bob Thomson
Bob Thomson
Sincere thanks, wonderful poem. Contrarily to Joseph's poem which I
could find easily thanks to Google, I could not track back your choice
of one... do you mind telling more about its source?
Yes, indeed, Frigg also knows this and remembers the words that you
brought forth, as well as all young birds under her wing.
--
Bob Thomson
Randgrithr
> Sincere thanks, wonderful poem. Contrarily to Joseph's poem which I
> could find easily thanks to Google, I could not track back your choice
> of one... do you mind telling more about its source?
I wrote it several years ago.
Randgríðr
Bob Thomson
+10 then !
Beautiful, moving, quick to explain the whole tale to a mostly ignorant
of Norse traditions like me... and, well, right on the spot, you gifted
Warrioress of Freyja.
--
Bob Thomson
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Well, the clever bit was really to do with packaging and marketing.
> Like how and when the then young and already ruthless crook LRH got to
> know Crowley's Moonchild concept via an Californian occultist who also
> was a rocket scientist (by the way, I never tried to search whether this
> one had a slight remnant of a German accent and had travelled on
> Paperclip airlines) before he eventually sold the idea to A. W. Dulles
> and became what he became, with a little help behind the scenes from the
> then nascent CIA so that he could recycle his trash science fiction
> books and fit a need for a much more ambitious project who received its
> death sentence only quite recently. A project on a similar line than the
> Raelian movement and OTS in France, only with a bigger bag of bucks in
> its pocket because it was a US project.
IIRC around 1980 Elron was making $4billion per year from CoS - yes,
BILLION! (back when that was a lot of money).
He overreached himself when he tried infiltrating the FBI, and also
tried to take over a small nation. Always wondered where Creedence
Clearwater Revival got their name (only joking - I don't really think
there's a connection).
>> As you probably know, prominent Scientologists were heavily involved
>> in the early days of military RV projects.
>
> Well, I'd have removed the "RV" here, picky me.
>> However, CoS seemed to lose its way around 1980. Whatever positive
>> things it might have had going for it disappeared and it became a
>> fully cynical money operation.
>
> I see. The most clever pragmatic minds figured out that then, grabbed
> what they felt like from it all and went back working to their stuff as
> usual.
>> If you want info on its techniques read:
>> Geoffrey Filbert's "Excalibur".
>> http://www.freezoneamerica.org/excal/excal00.html#toc
>
> It looks like an interesting site, thanks. It should enable me to
> understand more accurately in which context a few things that I read on
> forums were written.
Well, nobody is neutral when it comes to Scientology. It's best just to
look at their techniques and avoid the politics.
> Well, I got info from a few RV techniques by reading and studying the
> manual, got hands-on training on visual Reiki and a few other tricks,
> and basically am an ever-learning person, but this is not where I got
> the bulk of my training - it's from my teachers, spirit guides from the
> World Above and fellow shamans (mostly neo-shamans), especially from the
Whichever paradigm works for you. For me, it's TechnoShamanism.
> Siberian tradition. I was told the Nordic and Siberian traditions are
> still quite close and eventually come from the same roots, so hopefully
> this will help me when studying more specifically Nordic shamanism.
You might be interested in investigating Seidr, in that case. However,
it has traditionally been a female thing. Freya Aswynn (sp?), flawed
though she may be, is a powerful exponent in practice, although a bit
too eclectic for the purists.
> As a last remark (we may leave it at that and there is nothing personal
> in it), I could not help noticing that on the other hand, scientologists
> practicing those techniques (I don't specifically mean RV practicionners
> here) somewhat seemed to me to be to shamans more or less what sharks
> are to dolphins, irreconcilable and mutually foreign species.
The ecology is wide and deep when it comes to magick, and some niches
are heavily infested and defended.
Most magicians/shamans don't usually wander into that territory except
by accident. It's dangerous. All kinds of strange connections and
synchronicities. You mentioned Paperclip, so you probably know something
of that already.
Bob Thomson
Not sure if you remember me posting on alt.tarot, where I mostly was a
lurker... but I remember reading you there.
Joseph Littleshoes a écrit :
> (...)
>
>
> Why pick on the poor ophidian? Part I
>
> Thy feet in mire, thine head in murk,
> O man, how piteous thy plight,
> The doubts that daunt, the ills that irk,
> Thou hast nor wit nor will to fight —
> How hope in heart, or worth in work?
> No star in sight!
>
> Thy Gods proved puppets of the priest.
> "Truth? All's relation!" science sighed.
> In bondage with thy brother beast,
> Love tortured thee, as Love's hope died
> And Love's faith rotted. Life no least
> Dim star descried.
>
> Thy cringing carrion cowered and crawled
> To find itself a chance-cast clod
> Whose Pain was purposeless; appalled
> That aimless accident thus trod
> Its agony, that void skies sprawled
> On the vain sod!
I did not know that one... it looks like G.D. stuff to me (loosely
speaking) - through which I only skimmed, without any practice. Strong
poem, for sure.
The only subjectively useful explanation that I found to date to the old
story of despising the serpent as a symbol was its association with
Reptilians (well, to a specific and more than exotic breed of).
I love the snake symbols of Ouroboros (it has quite a meaning for Sacred
Sex, on which Lilith and some others Up Above taught me a few things)
and Kundalini, which awakening is represented by Hermes' caduceus. This
is a topic of interest to me also since one of my spirit guides once
told me how to perform a Kundalini awakening that does the trick neatly
and without any undesirable side effects so far.
Greek Legends tell us that Hermes made the caduceus from a golden rod
given to him by Apollo. I can't refrain from smiling when thinking about
the hidden meaning of the golden rod and the Sacred Sex implications of
the two young Gods' exchange (which I find is totally fair, since Hermes
gave in return the Lyre, which happens to be my favourite musical
instrument).
--
Bob Thomson
Randgrithr
> +10 then !
>
> Beautiful, moving, quick to explain the whole tale to a mostly ignorant
> of Norse traditions like me... and, well, right on the spot, you gifted
> Warrioress of Freyja.
Glad you liked it. :) It was one of those that I consider having had a
certain amount of "help" with.
Randgríðr
Bob Thomson
Well, getting their point straight WAS part of the good job anyway!
:-)
OK, I've been vert busy this evening and the best part of the night,
getting their help on something big too, but now, it's really time to
try to rest for me.
--
Bob Thomson
Bob Thomson
I can better see your point. I would not exactly call it "clever"
though, but rather a very rarely seen degree of nerve and lack of any
sort of ethical standards which enabled (as we all know for instance
since the Xenu "myths" have been published) such a "clever" manipulator
to originally sell each copy of that stuff at incredibly high prices.
>> Like how and when the then young and already ruthless crook LRH got to
>> know Crowley's Moonchild concept via an Californian occultist who also
>> was a rocket scientist (by the way, I never tried to search whether
>> this one had a slight remnant of a German accent and had travelled on
>> Paperclip airlines) before he eventually sold the idea to A. W. Dulles
>> and became what he became, with a little help behind the scenes from
>> the then nascent CIA so that he could recycle his trash science
>> fiction books and fit a need for a much more ambitious project who
>> received its death sentence only quite recently. A project on a
>> similar line than the Raelian movement and OTS in France, only with a
>> bigger bag of bucks in its pocket because it was a US project.
>
> IIRC around 1980 Elron was making $4billion per year from CoS - yes,
> BILLION! (back when that was a lot of money).
> He overreached himself when he tried infiltrating the FBI, and also
> tried to take over a small nation. Always wondered where Creedence
> Clearwater Revival got their name (only joking - I don't really think
> there's a connection).
Well, I could, sometimes from a close view, see to which extent they had
infiltrated some of the CIA's current psy programs until the present
management could bring law and order back into at least most of his
place, not mentioning Sarkozy's France. Is this this same country you
were referring to?
> (...)
>
>>> If you want info on its techniques read:
>>> Geoffrey Filbert's "Excalibur".
>>> http://www.freezoneamerica.org/excal/excal00.html#toc
>>
>> It looks like an interesting site, thanks. It should enable me to
>> understand more accurately in which context a few things that I read
>> on forums were written.
>
> Well, nobody is neutral when it comes to Scientology. It's best just to
> look at their techniques and avoid the politics.
I'm sure that this is what American "pragmatists" had in mind when they
set up Paperclip.
>> Well, I got info from a few RV techniques by reading and studying the
>> manual, got hands-on training on visual Reiki and a few other tricks,
>> and basically am an ever-learning person, but this is not where I got
>> the bulk of my training - it's from my teachers, spirit guides from
>> the World Above and fellow shamans (mostly neo-shamans), especially
>> from the
>
> Whichever paradigm works for you. For me, it's TechnoShamanism.
Shamanism has always been seen as an empirical approach and more results
oriented than based on ideology or (blind) faith, but the technical part
that I perfectly do well without is the whole shebang of equipment that
some of those people are using in order to boost (amplify) their
abilities. They brought it all in when they saw how they were no game as
long as the rules were fair, even though they had brought in all the
former big names of their gang. Which is also why I say these people are
despicable cowards, so far away from any warrior's ethics as I do
understand that word, be it European Middle Ages chivalry, Japanese
Bushido or Asatru. I don't need to bring the names, details, dates and
all here, but I've got them in my diaries.
Even then, they can be defeated with bare hands. For one thing, they
always follow the same ways. They abide by protocols built up what they
think is state-of-the-art knowledge (psy-op attempts at downgrading the
receiver and gaining an influence on him) and they stick to that, adding
more and more quantitative efforts to it (it must have cost them an
awful lot) as much as they feel it appropriate, and, well, they can't
seem to escape from this modern, technological vision. Swiftness and the
ability to improvise are key.
>> Siberian tradition. I was told the Nordic and Siberian traditions are
>> still quite close and eventually come from the same roots, so
>> hopefully this will help me when studying more specifically Nordic
>> shamanism.
>
> You might be interested in investigating Seidr, in that case. However,
> it has traditionally been a female thing. Freya Aswynn (sp?), flawed
> though she may be, is a powerful exponent in practice, although a bit
> too eclectic for the purists.
Yes, I remember reading an account of a (bloody) controversy on this
gender topic, in Iceland, I think. I've been interested by divination
since I was a teen, first the Yi Jing (later working on a translation
from Chinese of my own), then Crowley's tarot, through which I bumped
into fascinating synchronicities between some heavily sombolic journeys
I had made and a couple of illustrations of its cards. New Age fluffy
bunnies do not seem to like it, but I did not find anything that was
specifically "dark" in it. I think I like the aesthetical aspects of
this work.
>> As a last remark (we may leave it at that and there is nothing
>> personal in it), I could not help noticing that on the other hand,
>> scientologists practicing those techniques (I don't specifically mean
>> RV practicionners here) somewhat seemed to me to be to shamans more or
>> less what sharks are to dolphins, irreconcilable and mutually foreign
>> species.
>
> The ecology is wide and deep when it comes to magick, and some niches
> are heavily infested and defended.
True, but, well, I had a job to do, the bulk of which I seem to have
achieved last night. To me, what was important was to better understand
the true reasons behind the synchronicity that you mentioned here.
> Most magicians/shamans don't usually wander into that territory except
> by accident. It's dangerous. All kinds of strange connections and
> synchronicities.
Indeed. Ethics and purpose are paramount, at each moment of our lives.
Now the times seem on the verge to change... only little clues here and
there to see for now, like this airplane recently shot down in the
skies, who exploded above Viet-nam. Paraphrasing the old Chinese saying,
we may all live interesting times soon.
> You mentioned Paperclip, so you probably know something
> of that already.
Yep... I brought back a few vivid personal memories, dating from the
early fifties up to 1957. It has been real pain to heal, and now, all
I've got is a few little scars as a souvenir. What does not kill you
makes you stronger, so they say.
Back to the original topic... When adding alt.religion.asatru to this
thread, I was hoping to also get some feed-back more centered around the
contents of the journey that I've been describing, an event in the World
Above, but - knowing how much Asatruar can be (rightly) careful against
hasty mix-ups concerning their Deities, I'm really glad about the
answers I got to this question concerning Lilith and Freyja. It opened
the door to in fact several big steps in my research.
And this little technical discussion has also been quite interesting as
well. To all who answered me, thank you for your time.
--
Bob Thomson
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
A couple of other links you might find of interest. The first concerns
Asatru ethics and is an essay I wrote:
http://www.neopax.com/asatru/oath/index.html
One on Freya:
http://www.neopax.com/asatru/meetingfreya/index.html
And the archive of some radio shows me and Marc did a while back -
fairly patchy but you might find some stuff of interest.
http://www.onetribe.me.uk/wordpress/?cat=5
If you don't know much about it, try the hemisync (binaural tones). It's
a very good hitech trance technique. We included a basic MP3:
http://www.onetribe.me.uk/wordpress/?p=56
Randgrithr
Racism is stupid. I don't make time for stupid.
Randgríðr
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Provided by trolls who periodically try to sabotage ARA for reasons of
religious hatred.
More sensible stuff happens on soc.religion.asatru which is moderated.
Searles O'Dubhain
"Dirk Bruere at NeoPax" <dirk....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6cpklgF...@mid.individual.net...
> Randgrithr wrote:
>> I don't bother to follow up on links provided by racists.
>>
>> Racism is stupid. I don't make time for stupid.
>>
>> Randgríðr
>
> Provided by trolls who periodically try to sabotage ARA for reasons of
> religious hatred.
> More sensible stuff happens on soc.religion.asatru which is moderated.
>
We have our own group of trolls on a.r.d. One day, maybe we will have the
wisdom to create a moderated s.r.d.? I hope so.
Searles O'Dubhain
Bob Thomson
Oh yeah. What a defensor of free speech, which conception of the latter
is best expressed on forums moderated by you and your friends. Don't you
think I can remember your nazi friend's other attempt at seizing the
moderation of soc.religion.shamanism and what is the result today, on
what is but a puddle of still, muddy water, ZERO traffic? I can safely
forecast the same situation on soc.religion.asatru, it's not far from it
already. You are, at the very least, a very rude control freak with no
ethics and stinking acquaintances.
It would have been more brave of you to advise beforehand of your true
links and present day agenda with scientology, which your attitude
clearly tells, as well as probably a few others that I could mention, a
Londonian bunch of crooks among which I would not be the least surprised
if there were a few russian-israelian maffia's aging bois and a couple
of renegades of a Russian origin (this is quite an easy conclusion to
make, seeing how you advertise a few things on your Web site).
The world is small. A certain one among these went to meet me astrally
very soon after being dead - a good shaman is also a psychopump. In
order to help you a bit for forensic purposes, he was still young, but
entirely bald and very strongly emaciated, and had publicly claimed to
have taken a certain cup of tea; and he had a Chechen islamic funeral.
Now being in this condition of physical death, he still attempted to
disinform me, which meant he had a connection leading him - on top of
that, he gave me two code names that I already knew how to interpret.
That was quite some time ago. And of course, according to what he told
me, it was the other side who was "nazi".
End of this discussion, and of any other with you or your fellow
creatures. Now go to Hell, preferrably the christian version who, if
ever it exists as is depicted, is truly tailored for people like you.
--
Bob Thomson
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
You sound like a real psycho.
For your information I have no contacts with CoS, and never have had.
Nor has anyone here every tried to 'take over' a shamanist NG of any
description.
I have been completely open with you, and as helpful as I know how.
You are simply an ungrateful, deceitful person with no sense of honour
that I can discern.
As for links and information, it's all here: www.neopax.com
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
The Net is filled with people who are mentally disturbed, obsessive and
deluded.
It is to be expected.
Anyway, Usenet has had its day. Most serious discussions take place in
private forums.
1X2Willows
> I don't bother to follow up on links provided by racists.
>
> Racism is stupid. I don't make time for stupid.
>
> Randgríðr
Dirk a "racist"?
Oh goodness... here it comes.
Dan
[fup2 alt.dev.null]
Bob Thomson
nice and handy to slice the shoulder straps of a drunken wreck, but you
want to keep acting as if you didn't understand, so be it. Now, just
slip into this empty barrel and keep dancing.
Any decent professional would have remembered the absolute futility of
arguing against reasonably grounded evidence and clues, all pointing
towards the same direction... even this living piece of shit named Alex
Barna knew this.
Now look. This is very serious. There was nothing personal - otiginally,
that is, and unless you keep wanting to desperately stand in the way of
the ongoing clean-up, who refers to something much bigger than your
person unless you are much more than you want to admit openly and unless
I'm really lucky.
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax a écrit :
> (...)
>
> You sound like a real psycho.
Oh yeah. I could, maybe, without anything to back my claims up, that is.
Let's see what I can do for you.
Well, it could be your own perception of your own strength that made you
brag a little too much, but the puzzle's pieces are clicking into place,
one after the other.
For instance, your web sites and Usenet's archives show that you have a
long time interest (and quite some time spent) in technological watch,
and I reckon you don't seem to do that too badly. Now, among the
professionals of the trade, what is the approximate percentage of people
who do it profitably (it's a growing, still small and very well paid
niche), who are not only trained, but also enough inside the system to
obtain the contracts... who did not learn the trade in some intelligence
agency, that is, who are former agents wanting to sell their expertise
to private companies while still able to do possibly contract work for a
government, possibly non-official (read: dirty) jobs?
For people who are not familiar with such a situation, they can try to
know, among civilian helicopter pilots, the approximate percentage of
the ones who are not former military pilots. Anybody meeting the strict
health standards applicable can pay a lot in order to become a certified
helicopter pilot, but between the highly reputed training and the strong
esprit de corps between former army people... well, such is most of
life, here on Earth, for now at least.
There was (intentional past, a short time prophecy now that the federal
dough tap has been at least mostly closed in the USA) exactly the same
situation with all those scientologists, former RV professionals, who
set up their consulting shops afterwards, often in places like Hawaii...
So I'm saying that there are not many. One of them, a French guy then
very busy developing his own watch venture (before being, one way or
another, forced to shut it down) taught me 8 years ago how to perform
advanced Internet searches, at a time where was a much more heavy
competition around Google and pricey pieces of software like "Dig out 4
U" were recommended. I still have somewhere a copy of it that he gave
me. Well, he was also the sort of guy who once showed me a heavy
revolver type gun that he got at home, with the license and all. He told
me about using anonymizers in chain when doing a "hot" searches, in
order to avoid being detected and located too early. And a bunch of
other things from the trade. Technically speaking, he was rather good. I
can't tell if he was using RV techniques or similar. Unfortunately,
beyound being clever and having a gift for getting to know people and
gaining their interest and trust, he also had a total lack of ethical
standards. Pride. Greed. The easy way. He's also the only guy I ever met
in those years who had a non-diesel four-by-four car as a second car.
Incidentally, while younger, he was heavily into a pagan movement AND a
French far right movement - shit, I nearly forgot a third connection
with White Russians. But that's not all that he told me, and even if it
took me some time to get a sharper picture, I was clever enough to make
good use of the stories that he spontaneously told me from time to time
while I was still seeing him.
On the same level, the way you show your proficiency with the Russian
equivalent of RV techniques tells you were certainly trained by some
renegade Russian agents of the KGB, many being notoriously established
in London, where a certain Boris Berezovsky also happens to live. And
the connections keep going around it all, in an amazing way. It goes to
a point where my only remaining question about Randgrithr's calling you
a nazi, whether it is in a metaphorical way (referring to racist people
usually called white supremacists) or stricto sensu, is now blinking in
a corner of my mind.
> For your information I have no contacts with CoS, and never have had.
Considering that around 80% of the historic core of US RV teams were
affiliated to CoS, and counting the number of instructors you had in
this field during all those years, you can easily determine the odds of
the truth of your claim of an absence of contact, knowing how heavily
those guys are proselytic (as well as elitist) in nature. One way of
seeing things is that standing their infect proselytic ways and famous
superiority complex all this time in order to learn their tricks for
years without being contaminated would have been a terrible burden. The
other way consists in seeing you as somebody so totally deprived of
ethical standards of any kind except some similar religion of ego
(people which a former higher-up in French intelligence wrote that they
were called "healthy psychopaths" in a very interesting study) that you
did not care a damn about this crap during all this time while the dough
was coming and you considered them as winners or losers in terms of
turnaround. The "ethics" of business, possibly hiding things even more
distasteful.
What you have been writing just above is called a plausible denial. Not
that it will lead you far. The other way neither - it's pointless to ask
some questions to an intelligence agent, like if he's a member of some
agency, because he simply can't tell it even if he'd want to (except to
authorities), it would be a gross negligence. If that's what he wants to
do, he'll make it understood as clearly as he wishes - for instance, by
giving a single piece of classified information, not sensitive enough to
be an issue per se, but relevant enough in the situation at stake.
What I can now say is that, based on what can be easily read on some of
the various Web sites in your sig or that you kindly provided, I'd bet a
cask of Randgrithr's best mead against a stale diet coke that you have
the taste, flavor and odor of a former intelligence agent, probably
British. Contrarily to any insider in the trade, I only work with open
source stuff, which, as this French guy once explained to me, covers 80
to 90% of useful information in the modern Western world - complemented
by a few bits of info transmitted through immaterial channels from time
to time.
> Nor has anyone here every tried to 'take over' a shamanist NG of any
> description.
Unfortunately, well, not only I was there at the time, but also, I have
back-ups of all e-mails exchanged on the dedicated list that Tim had set
up in order to help for the task of selecting moderators, and except one
fluffy bunny and a proponent of natural psychotropic plants, a consensus
had arisen among all people who had joined in, including one of your
compatriots - and except one, who is the actual moderator of this empty
group. It happened in a way that made all the other interested persons,
who also all belonged to the group of ARS regulars, feel they were not
only left aside without good reason, but also betrayed, hence the
spontaneous and collective decision to let SRS go away like the
ill-omened Flying Dutchman's ship that he had now become with such a
captain on board, your friend Doug, who now seems to have given up even
the regular posting of the FAQ, since this group is totally empty on two
of the news servers that I regularly use. OK, so who is the liar here?
Now, I have the feeling that maybe we could dig a bit deeper into the
deeds of this French guy and how it could relate to some British nazis
who are, to my humble opinion, a living shame. Who knows, I can already
see, not that far away, the ghost of a beautiful and young princess who
had such a tragic fate...
--
Bob Thomson
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
So what do you expect me to say about that rambling mess above?
When you play games its a small world. At the best of times there are
only an average of six degrees of separation between people. As soon as
it's narrowed by common interests that halves at least.
As for much of the rest concerning TechnoShamanic techniques, both Marc
and myself do *original* research. We don't need the KGB, CIA, SIS, CoS
or assorted acronyms to teach us anything. In fact, I'll let you in on a
little secret. The acronyms generally publish stuff that only marginally
works, or not at all eg the RV documents. We look at what they *don't*
say. There are glaring holes in their reported research - things that
are (to me) obvious next steps which are never mentioned. We take those
steps.
Still, if you want to play in this field you are going to get some ugly
personal shocks. I know how to move without making waves, and you don't.
I doubt there is much more to say, since you obviously cannot allow
yourself to believe what I tell you, and I see you as a fool at best who
has got a great deal wrong. Again, no point in telling you what.
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Bob Thomson
>>
OK, good dog. Now keep calm, it's to your masters I want to talk.
Fine. At least you got me. Do your homework before launching empty
threats, though.
Let's say I'm less into technological watch, more into exopolitics,
which is located, within the Brits' building, same floor, the door next
to yours and you know the way, if I read you well.
OK, I've shown you my water bomb and if it hits the ground, somebody is
going to get wet, somebody who was into the hiring the driver of a white
UNO Fiat that I already mentioned.
Now, will you please tell those ones the message that follows, from Dorian:
They are no game as far as he's concerned, things will happen without
them - and we don't need them.
End of communication. Game Over.
--
Bob Thomson
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Kick back and enjoy a nice Chartreuse.
And no, your message is wasted on me.
Remember Newton's third law.
mark
> Maybe alt.religion.wicca was not the wisest choice for groups to include
> in this thread so I won't keep it, but a silent FU2 is not fair to me,
> so I'm reinstalling the other NG.
>
> I've been a regular of alt.religion.shamanism since a few years (where
> you apparently never posted, at least under your present Usenet nick,
> and I don't remember ever reading you there) and considering the scope
> of this discussion, is this thread is going to lead anywhere, I know I
> need some broader feed-back.
Nope. Never, intentionally. I've not been reading usenet much in years, but
recently got back on. I was a regular on alt.pagan through the first half
of the nineties, and one of the proponents of soc.religion.paganism.
I won't be following further - not into shamanism (I know a *little* about
authentic historical, and not real big on modern versions, to put it
politely.
>
> mark a écrit :
>> Noinden wrote:
>>> On Jun 25, 4:03 pm, Bob Thomson <n...@adresski.ru> wrote:
>>>> Noinden a écrit :
>> <snip>
>>> No you answered it fine for me. I'm a hard polythiest, so I see every
>>> deity as unique, and I also understand quite a lot about the various
>>> IE cultures and their deities. I think it's a great ide what you are
>>> trying to do!
>>
>> Heh. I'm a harder polytheist than you! In fact, you might call me a
>> fundamentalist pagan (Gaia Hypothesis, that is), meaning every planet
>> with a biosphere has its own deity.
>
> I'm wary of intellectual concepts and your idea, if taken at face value,
> could mean nothing else than a planet-level monotheism. ;-)
True. On the other hand, *if* there is anything that actually interacts with
humans, on a human scale, it would be what I might call functions called by
the main deity, sort of like you don't consciously direct the cells of your
body to handle the problem when you hit your knee on the coffee table.
>
> One of my results so far is that some Deities seem to come from other
> planets than Earth (or in fact, other stars than the Sun). It does not
> mean that there is only one per planet. Maybe there is one Primordial
> Goddess per planet... in which case the one you name Gaia would be the
> Earth's one. To my knowledge, the Ancient Greek's Gaia is a Primordial
> Goddess but probably not from here, the local one would be the one named
> Freyja in the Nordic traditions.
I don't think there's anyone from other planets playing in this ballpark,
unless you want to suggest that's why everything's so fucked up. And I use
Gaia explicitly because that's the name Lovelock used.
>
>> Of course, none of them are the Big Person In The Nightshirt. I mean,
>> Gaia isn't - if She was, She *surely* would have saved Her dearly beloved
>> dinosaurs from the comet....
>
> This makes me remember of somebody who once told me that she remembered
> one incarnation as a female diplodocus. She brought back many details,
> including her death, suffocated by sulfur gases coming from a volcanic
> eruption triggered by the famous comet or meteorite...
Sorry, I've yet to meet anyone who's remembered specific details that they
could not possibly have known from a previous life. Trust me, I wish there
was a chance.... But one of the few experiences I've had with REAL magick,
that's exactly what happened: the woman in front of me had no possible way
of knowing what my then-wife was doing in the bathroom (putting a spell on
a guy in the other room, to get him to crash - he was on a seriously bad
trip, and that on STP).
<snip>
And as for me? Sorry, I'm a first-timer. If I wasn't and if what goes 'round
comes round, I do NOT WANT TO EVER remember anything of the last one.
mark
mark
> "Dirk Bruere at NeoPax" <dirk....@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:6cpklgF...@mid.individual.net...
>> Randgrithr wrote:
>>> I don't bother to follow up on links provided by racists.
>>>
>>> Racism is stupid. I don't make time for stupid.
>>
>> religious hatred.
>> More sensible stuff happens on soc.religion.asatru which is moderated.
>
> We have our own group of trolls on a.r.d. One day, maybe we will have the
> wisdom to create a moderated s.r.d.? I hope so.
Yeah, the reason that, after years of saying no, over on alt.pagan in '93?
we finally gave in, and created soc.religion.paganism, was a much of jerks
who were operating out of, mmm, alt.bigfoot? alt.syntax.tactical? who had
way too much time and computer access, and thought it was "fun" to destroy
newsgroups by multicrossposting, and doing mindless cascades (our was
Mentos, and significantly worse than the idiotic recent pizza thread).
mark
mark
> Neolithic a ecrit :
>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 01:44:36 +0200, Bob Thomson <ni...@adresski.ru>
>> wrote:
>>> Gemeral Sam a ecrit :
>>>>>>>> (...)
<snip>
>> A significant part of the the people who became the Irish passed
>> through Greece...indeed they sacked the Oracle in Delphi...
>>
>> Old Irish is similar to Phoenician...
<snip>
*sigh*
Have you read *any* actual history, or is this all what you thought you
heard while sleeping through history?
As I think I've mentioned before in this thread, which non of you responded
to, the Phoenicians were big about, oh, 3,000 years ago. The Celts came
through the British Isles around 2,500 and 2,300 hundred years ago. You're
claiming that modern English is similar to to Old French.
mark
Neolithic
wrote:
>Dirk Bruere at NeoPax a écrit :
>> Randgrithr wrote:
>>> I don't bother to follow up on links provided by racists.
>>>
>>> Racism is stupid. I don't make time for stupid.
>>>
>>> Randgríðr
>>
>> Provided by trolls who periodically try to sabotage ARA for reasons of
>> religious hatred.
>> More sensible stuff happens on soc.religion.asatru which is moderated.
>>
>> FFF
>> Dirk
>>
>> http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
>> Remote Viewing classes in London
>
>Oh yeah. What a defensor of free speech, which conception of the latter
>is best expressed on forums moderated by you and your friends. Don't you
>think I can remember your nazi friend's other attempt at seizing the
>moderation of soc.religion.shamanism
Who precisely was that please?
> and what is the result today, on
>what is but a puddle of still, muddy water, ZERO traffic? I can safely
>forecast the same situation on soc.religion.asatru,
I will prove you wrong on that point.
> it's not far from it already. You are, at the very least, a very rude control freak with no
>ethics and stinking acquaintances.
Who are you talking about precisely please?
>It would have been more brave of you to advise beforehand of your true
>links and present day agenda with scientology,
I've known Dirk for years and he has never mentioned Scientology.
>which your attitude
>clearly tells, as well as probably a few others that I could mention, a
>Londonian bunch of crooks among which I would not be the least surprised
>if there were a few russian-israelian maffia's aging bois and a couple
>of renegades of a Russian origin (this is quite an easy conclusion to
>make, seeing how you advertise a few things on your Web site).
Be specific and use urls that support your allegations.
>The world is small. A certain one among these went to meet me astrally
>very soon after being dead - a good shaman is also a psychopump. In
>order to help you a bit for forensic purposes, he was still young, but
>entirely bald and very strongly emaciated, and had publicly claimed to
>have taken a certain cup of tea;
Lieutenant Colonel Aleksandr Litvinenko
>and he had a Chechen islamic funeral.
>Now being in this condition of physical death, he still attempted to
>disinform me, which meant he had a connection leading him - on top of
>that, he gave me two code names that I already knew how to interpret.
>That was quite some time ago. And of course, according to what he told
>me, it was the other side who was "nazi".
Ashkenazi is more likely...
>End of this discussion, and of any other with you or your fellow
>creatures. Now go to Hell, preferrably the christian version who, if
>ever it exists as is depicted, is truly tailored for people like you.
Mr Thompson you are deluding yourself.
Neolithic
Neolithic
<randg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I don't bother to follow up on links provided by racists.
What makes you say that?
>Racism is stupid.
It is.
> I don't make time for stupid.
Fair enough but what has that got to do with Dirk?
Neolithic
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Nobody knows - it's a mystery.
Randgrithr
wrote:
> Randgrithr wrote:
> > I don't bother to follow up on links provided by racists.
>
> > Racism is stupid. I don't make time for stupid.
>
> > Randgríðr
>
> Provided by trolls who periodically try to sabotage ARA for reasons of
> religious hatred.
> More sensible stuff happens on soc.religion.asatru which is moderated.
A group moderated by racists is one I do not have any interest in.
Randgríðr
Randgrithr
> > Nor has anyone here every tried to 'take over' a shamanist NG of any
> > description.
>
> Unfortunately, well, not only I was there at the time, but also, I have
> back-ups of all e-mails exchanged on the dedicated list that Tim had set
> up in order to help for the task of selecting moderators, and except one
> fluffy bunny and a proponent of natural psychotropic plants, a consensus
> had arisen among all people who had joined in, including one of your
> compatriots - and except one, who is the actual moderator of this empty
> group. It happened in a way that made all the other interested persons,
> who also all belonged to the group of ARS regulars, feel they were not
> only left aside without good reason, but also betrayed, hence the
> spontaneous and collective decision to let SRS go away like the
> ill-omened Flying Dutchman's ship that he had now become with such a
> captain on board, your friend Doug, who now seems to have given up even
> the regular posting of the FAQ, since this group is totally empty on two
> of the news servers that I regularly use. OK, so who is the liar here?
I corroborate what Bob says, as I was also involved in that
discussion.
The person who tried to "save" the moderated newsgroup was really only
interested in handing it over to racist Asatruar control freaks who
were spamming this group via other channels in an effort to create an
artificial "need" for the moderated one, similar to what was done on
a.r.a.
The group of us who are not racists who were approached were not
treated seriously. We were expected to invest (read: waste) a lot of
our own time and effort lobbying for moderatorship of that newsgroup.
When it became apparent that the real goal of this endeavor was to
cater to the racists and cause us to waste time, effort and emotional
involvement fighting what was in essence a prefabricated battle with
an already scripted end, I removed myself from the discussion.
Randgríðr
Randgrithr
wrote:
> Neolithic wrote:
> > On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 07:21:10 -0700 (PDT), Randgrithr
> > <randgri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I don't bother to follow up on links provided by racists.
>
> > What makes you say that?
>
> >> Racism is stupid.
>
> > It is.
>
> >> I don't make time for stupid.
>
> > Fair enough but what has that got to do with Dirk?
>
> > Neolithic
>
> Nobody knows - it's a mystery.
>
I know a folktard troll when I see one.
Randgríðr
Bob Thomson
> On Jun 29, 4:02 pm, Bob Thomson <n...@adresski.ru> wrote:
>
>>> Nor has anyone here every tried to 'take over' a shamanist NG of any
>>> description.
>> Unfortunately, well, not only I was there at the time, but also, I have
>> back-ups of all e-mails exchanged on the dedicated list that Tim had set
>> up in order to help for the task of selecting moderators, and except one
>> fluffy bunny and a proponent of natural psychotropic plants, a consensus
>> had arisen among all people who had joined in, including one of your
>> compatriots - and except one, who is the actual moderator of this empty
>> group. It happened in a way that made all the other interested persons,
>> who also all belonged to the group of ARS regulars, feel they were not
>> only left aside without good reason, but also betrayed, hence the
>> spontaneous and collective decision to let SRS go away like the
>> ill-omened Flying Dutchman's ship that he had now become with such a
>> captain on board, your friend Doug, who now seems to have given up even
>> the regular posting of the FAQ, since this group is totally empty on two
>> of the news servers that I regularly use. OK, so who is the liar here?
>
> I corroborate what Bob says, as I was also involved in that
> discussion.
>
> The person who tried to "save" the moderated newsgroup was really only
> interested in handing it over to racist Asatruar control freaks who
> were spamming this group via other channels
Yep, that was the small link that was missing. +1.
Incidentally (since the real fights about control attempts over Usenet
are, I think, a topic of interest for many people), I had noticed the
spamming on yet another group (alt.religion.angels) and figured out that
it was on purpose, since a gang of krooks were doing their best to seize
their hands on it (without even trying to hide).
> in an effort to create an
> artificial "need" for the moderated one, similar to what was done on
> a.r.a.
>
> The group of us who are not racists who were approached were not
> treated seriously. We were expected to invest (read: waste) a lot of
> our own time and effort lobbying for moderatorship of that newsgroup.
> When it became apparent that the real goal of this endeavor was to
> cater to the racists and cause us to waste time, effort and emotional
> involvement fighting what was in essence a prefabricated battle with
> an already scripted end, I removed myself from the discussion.
>
> Randgríðr
I consider the above account as totally fair and true.
--
Bob Thomson
Bob Thomson
> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 17:18:38 +0200, Bob Thomson <ni...@adresski.ru>
> wrote:
>
>> Dirk Bruere at NeoPax a écrit :
>>> Randgrithr wrote:
>>>> I don't bother to follow up on links provided by racists.
>>>>
>>>> Racism is stupid. I don't make time for stupid.
>>>>
>>>> Randgríðr
>>> Provided by trolls who periodically try to sabotage ARA for reasons of
>>> religious hatred.
>>> More sensible stuff happens on soc.religion.asatru which is moderated.
>>>
>>> FFF
>>> Dirk
>>>
>>> http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
>>> Remote Viewing classes in London
>> Oh yeah. What a defensor of free speech, which conception of the latter
>> is best expressed on forums moderated by you and your friends. Don't you
>> think I can remember your nazi friend's other attempt at seizing the
>> moderation of soc.religion.shamanism
>
> Who precisely was that please?
That's how a certain Doug was "introduced" to me then. What I could then
see for myself about his behavior, the connections I've begun to develop
on another part of this thread, and a few other cards still in my sleeve
seem to indicate that when the big clean-up is finished, it's not going
to be considered as gratuitous slandering any more.
>> and what is the result today, on
>> what is but a puddle of still, muddy water, ZERO traffic? I can safely
>> forecast the same situation on soc.religion.asatru,
>
> I will prove you wrong on that point.
Look, I could care more in this case, I care more about the concrete
ability of free speech over Usenet. Not taking into account a gap in the
time on which the posts are kept on the same server, the posting ration
seemed roughly 10:1.
My point is, it should be obvious that a moderated N.G. can ALSO,
because of this very nature, pose a threat to free speech, of a
different (opposite) nature than the risk of bullshit being spammed on
non-moderated N.G. So the disclosure of concerted spamming attempts on
non-moderated N.G. by the same gang of crooks should, to me, be looked
at closely.
>> it's not far from it already. You are, at the very least, a very rude control freak with no
>> ethics and stinking acquaintances.
>
> Who are you talking about precisely please?
As should be obvious from the development of the thread, it was Dirk
Bruere at NeoPax.
>> It would have been more brave of you to advise beforehand of your true
>> links and present day agenda with scientology,
>
> I've known Dirk for years and he has never mentioned Scientology.
As everybody could see, he did not mind checking and I never said that I
knew he was one, I described a whole ecological niche in which he was
and where CoS has played quite some role, which he did not deny. I saw
his possible belonging to CoS as a strong possibility. From all that was
exchanged so far, I'd rather think that on this issue, he told me the
truth and that all there has been between the two is a close proximity
in terms of (lack of) ethics and business opportunities that are now, by
far, not what they are. I am now seeing a strong possibility that there
is something else than scientology, at least as ugly.
>> which your attitude
>> clearly tells, as well as probably a few others that I could mention, a
>> Londonian bunch of crooks among which I would not be the least surprised
>> if there were a few russian-israelian maffia's aging bois and a couple
>> of renegades of a Russian origin (this is quite an easy conclusion to
>> make, seeing how you advertise a few things on your Web site).
>
> Be specific and use urls that support your allegations.
Apart from my direct contact with Litvinenko's spirit, most of all I
worked from on this case was open source. I could not find the URL of a
good article from one US source, an independent enquirer, which ideas
can't be suspected of all coming straight from the FSB. Basically, it
pointed out how much Litvinenko was within a nest of former Russian and
British agents involved in trafficking weapons, including some military
grade radioactive uranium components, and how the British police (not to
mention intelligence?) was totally unfair, using a partial version of
their data fitting the political goals of the day in order to publicly
incriminate Putin's Russia, refusing to transmit the deceased's most
basic forensic case to the Russian authorities as well as other key
elements, like the full map and recorded radioactivity level values of
the traces of polonium, which were spotted in very big number of locations.
Basically, if one would want to kill somebody using radioactivity, then
Polonium is a really stupid idea. Incredibly costly, very short-lived (a
half-life of 122 days), manufactured by an incredibly small number of
firms or organizations, none of them in Russia since years. One could
think about a military origin, yet Polonium is a very old and crude
technology for making nuclear bomb detonators (only of interest for
countries developing their first bombs). The idea of using it for the
murder of a single person made me remember an advert where a snobbish
and totally dumb lady goes to the grocer and asks for something (let's
say tea). When asked to choose among the many brands proposed, she
answers "Give me the most expensive one". It's all about profiling. Who
would pick such a weapon? It looks as stupid, costly and rare as an
all-platinum gun. It would be somebody very rich, proud of his bucks,
who wanted to show how much rich he was, and therefore, to give a clue
about his identity, a maffioso's attitude.
The very day Litvinenko claimed to have met Lugovoi and drunk the tea,
he had another rendez-vous with a member of this trafficking weapons
network. There is another series of possibilities that I'm investigating
about the polonium itself, still ongoing but also ugly for Litvinenko,
which boss was Berezowski.
OK, I hope I gave you some answers, this is all I'll say about this case
for now, it's not the main point of this thread anyway.
>> The world is small. A certain one among these went to meet me astrally
>> very soon after being dead - a good shaman is also a psychopump. In
>> order to help you a bit for forensic purposes, he was still young, but
>> entirely bald and very strongly emaciated, and had publicly claimed to
>> have taken a certain cup of tea;
>
> Lieutenant Colonel Aleksandr Litvinenko
It's such a small world.
>> and he had a Chechen islamic funeral.
>> Now being in this condition of physical death, he still attempted to
>> disinform me, which meant he had a connection leading him - on top of
>> that, he gave me two code names that I already knew how to interpret.
>
>> That was quite some time ago. And of course, according to what he told
>> me, it was the other side who was "nazi".
>
> Ashkenazi is more likely...
LOL... No. If you know a few bits of Russia's modern history and
culture, you'll know how the term "nazi" has been specifically used in
this country to designate some ultimate evil. I mentioned code names
that I won't publish.
>> End of this discussion, and of any other with you or your fellow
>> creatures. Now go to Hell, preferrably the christian version who, if
>> ever it exists as is depicted, is truly tailored for people like you.
>
> Mr Thompson you are deluding yourself.
>
> Neolithic
LOL... wait and see, as they say.
--
Bob Thomson
Episkopos J.J. Jubilee
> >> Noinden a écrit :
> <snip>
> > No you answered it fine for me. I'm a hard polythiest, so I see every
> > deity as unique, and I also understand quite a lot about the various
> > IE cultures and their deities. I think it's a great ide what you are
> > trying to do!
>
> Heh. I'm a harder polytheist than you! In fact, you might call me a
> fundamentalist pagan (Gaia Hypothesis, that is), meaning every planet with
> a biosphere has its own deity.
>
> isn't - if She was, She *surely* would have saved Her dearly beloved
> dinosaurs from the comet....
>
she tried but Fred was really persuasive.
Bob Thomson
Mark, you are replying to me, but what you quote is Neolithic's words,
it's up to him to answer should he want to.
And could you please stop silently removing the cross-posting.
--
Bob Thomson
Bob Thomson
>
>
> Kick back and enjoy a nice Chartreuse.
> And no, your message is wasted on me.
Here is something that is not going to be wasted, neither for you, nor
for true Asatruars around.
Not listen, you rat. The car driver I was talking about also told me
once that he had been recognized by the Nordic Pagan group which he was
in, as the bearer of the spirit of no one else than Fenrisúlfr, Fenrir's
grey wolf, son of Loki.
I'm proudly throwing the skin of this now dead beast at your feet, for
all to see. The next one on my list is now Loki himself.
--
Bob Thomson, child of Lilith
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Comes from before I had my falling out with Odinic Rite.
I liked their slogan and so used it as a signoff in religious NGs.
Faith, Folk, Family
--
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
> Dirk Bruere at NeoPax a écrit :
>>
>>>>>> (... snipping ...)
>>
>> Kick back and enjoy a nice Chartreuse.
>> And no, your message is wasted on me.
>
> Here is something that is not going to be wasted, neither for you, nor
> for true Asatruars around.
>
> Not listen, you rat. The car driver I was talking about also told me
> once that he had been recognized by the Nordic Pagan group which he was
> in, as the bearer of the spirit of no one else than Fenrisúlfr, Fenrir's
> grey wolf, son of Loki.
No Asatru group would tolerate such a person as a member if they
believed that. Fenris is the enemy.
> I'm proudly throwing the skin of this now dead beast at your feet, for
> all to see. The next one on my list is now Loki himself.
Well, go for it.
Loki isn't top of the popularity list either.
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Perhaps you would care to explain why supposed Asatruar would want a NG
with the name 'shamanism' in it, as opposed to the one we have lobbied
for since around 1999 ie soc.religion.asatru?
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Does anyone anywhere actually take you seriously?
Second, if you have emails showing any ARA or SRA Asatruar attempted to
take over another NG (or proposed NG) them publish or retract.
robert bowman
> That's how a certain Doug was "introduced" to me then. What I could then
> see for myself about his behavior, the connections I've begun to develop
> on another part of this thread, and a few other cards still in my sleeve
> seem to indicate that when the big clean-up is finished, it's not going
> to be considered as gratuitous slandering any more.
So that's where the rest of the cards are! I didn't think you were
playing with a full deck.
1X2Willows
Biblical apologists deluding away... whaddya' do.
[fup2 a.r.a.]
Bob Thomson
>> (...) The car driver I was talking about also told me
>> was in, as the bearer of the spirit of no one else than Fenrisúlfr,
>> Fenrir's grey wolf, son of Loki.
>
> No Asatru group would tolerate such a person as a member if they
> believed that. Fenris is the enemy.
Point noted. Well, this is a very good question, indeed.
The mystery is then rather, how come it all ever happened. Because he
spontaneously showed me his gun, taught me those tricks of the trade I
detailed above, told me about a few past missions of him of which he
seemed to be especially proud about (mind you, one of them even was
specifically about exopolitics in and/or around Groom Lake).
What I initially, vastly underestimated about him is how joung he still
was when pushed into all this. Because he looked so promising? Because
somebody had a hidden agenda? Whatever. Anway, it's his path, his
choices, his responsibilities, and ultimately, his fate. I mean, seen
from this angle I've first brought forth, he seems to have been a
relentless talker, but thinking about it further, I now understand that
it was merely because he had in fact so much more in stock and was only
entertaining people who he felt were smart enough to give them a chance
to decode what was but the very tip of a much bigger iceberg. In other
words, trying to see if there were promising young cubs around. One
could even call that a permanent, recruitment oriented watch. The more
one digs around this fellow...
Now, about who would try to make it happen... so we even both agree
here, that any true Asatruar (and more broadly, any ethical Pagan) would
never accept such a chimp in their zoo, so to say. Well, what I'm
suggesting here is that nazis posing as Asatru may have tried to do with
him what other nazis have been doing with MK-Ultra programs thanks to
Paperclip and all that - a Mandchurian candidate. Crushing at the very
least hundreds of children who "failed" did not matter a split second to
them. These victims existed, there were even trials won, by a few lucky
survivors who testified in the USA and Canada (used as a backyard). It's
exactly along the lines of one of the entry tests in the SS - knowingly
killing a kitten that had been put in a bag. The ones who did not have
the "stomach" to do this were not hired. So the ones I'm at are indeed
true nazis - at the very least in spirit. Not even necessarily "neo-" nazis.
I symbolically threw the wolf's skin here on this forum. What I know is
that such people are totally psychopaths. Let's imagine that one of them
on this forum has just seen the symbolic cadaver of his son. I don't
expect him to blink one eye. He'd know "better" - to keep his ice cold
rage inside.
--
Bob Thomson
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
You can believe that, but not the possibility that he was a total
bullshitter, who might even have believed his own lies?
> Now, about who would try to make it happen... so we even both agree
> here, that any true Asatruar (and more broadly, any ethical Pagan) would
Don't assume all ethical systems are the same.
The core of Asatru ethics is the Havamal. The only truly 'sacred' ethic
is keeping ones given word.
> never accept such a chimp in their zoo, so to say. Well, what I'm
> suggesting here is that nazis posing as Asatru may have tried to do with
> him what other nazis have been doing with MK-Ultra programs thanks to
> Paperclip and all that - a Mandchurian candidate. Crushing at the very
> least hundreds of children who "failed" did not matter a split second to
> them. These victims existed, there were even trials won, by a few lucky
> survivors who testified in the USA and Canada (used as a backyard). It's
> exactly along the lines of one of the entry tests in the SS - knowingly
> killing a kitten that had been put in a bag. The ones who did not have
> the "stomach" to do this were not hired. So the ones I'm at are indeed
> true nazis - at the very least in spirit. Not even necessarily "neo-"
> nazis.
That was never an SS requirement. Urban Legend.
On the whole Hitler and esp Himmler were animal lovers.
I have heard the same, but it was a dog.
> I symbolically threw the wolf's skin here on this forum. What I know is
> that such people are totally psychopaths. Let's imagine that one of them
> on this forum has just seen the symbolic cadaver of his son. I don't
> expect him to blink one eye. He'd know "better" - to keep his ice cold
> rage inside.
Beware the world you choose to live in - you will make it just as real
as your worst fears.
And as part of that creation you will always be the victimised outsider
who never quite knows enough. Who always finds the "final proof" just
out of reach etc.
Bob Thomson
The hell with those FU2.
In the ongoing game, the forum control freaks issue was just an
appetizer. As the same "game" and some of the same players also involved
alt.religion.shamanism and soc.religion.shamanism, I consider it as
biased since you seem to want to stick to this control issue.
Centering this thread around this sole issue has never been my point, I
mentioned it within what should be obviously a much broader scope. Some
stating your ideas could be only waiting for me to say what I just said
in order to start arguing that my words are not founded and to thus try
to cast a doubt on the rest. My limited experience with being candidate
to a moderation team has shown me to which incredible extent this topic
is prone to flame wars or, at best, endless nitpicking. Sorry, I have
other tasks at hand and so unfortunately, I'll leave it at that for now.
Besides, other people do have these e-mails (mine being stuck in a bulky
archive file which is much slower to use) and can use them whatever
(fair) way they want to.
--
Bob Thomson
Randgrithr
wrote:
> Perhaps you would care to explain why supposed Asatruar would want a NG
> with the name 'shamanism' in it, as opposed to the one we have lobbied
> for since around 1999 ie soc.religion.asatru?
Because the control freaks in question - yourself among them -
occasionally chafe in their sterile, controlled environments and
emerge from under said privately held rocks to pick fights with those
they disagree with. Racism is founded in fear, and frequently
manifests as hatred, anger, and a need to exert social control or
create unnecessary conflict.
The Odinic Rite is well known to be a white supremacist/racist
organization.
Randgríðr
Randgrithr
wrote:
> Beware the world you choose to live in - you will make it just as real
> as your worst fears.
> And as part of that creation you will always be the victimised outsider
> who never quite knows enough. Who always finds the "final proof" just
> out of reach etc.
Why not just make a funny face and pretend you're the boogeyman too.
*eyeroll*
Play with your own fears if that is how you get your jollies, racist,
but do not leave them laying about here like a steaming turd and
expect anyone else to buy into them.
Randgríðr
Randgrithr
wrote:
> Does anyone anywhere actually take you seriously?
> Second, if you have emails showing any ARA or SRA Asatruar attempted to
> take over another NG (or proposed NG) them publish or retract.
Bob, I would suggest you ignore this demand. Both of us have the
emails and can produce them for genuinely interested parties, but this
is merely another attempt to draw you into a meaningless conflict that
will waste your time and energy. No matter how many emails you produce
the fool will pretend you made them up out of whole cloth and refuse
to believe you no matter what you say. He is more interested in
causing a conflict than ending one.
I don't know what ended up bringing the right wing folktards out of
the woodwork this time, but they're out in force and leaving their
stench in many various forums all of a sudden. Maybe it's because
school's out for the summer. Whatever the case, my advice is: don't
waste your time.
Randgríðr
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Well, the reason seems to be because Bob crossposted this thread into
ARA looking for answers and then making accusations he can't back up.
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Which is one reason I am no longer a member.
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
> On Jun 30, 12:10 pm, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax <dirk.bru...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Beware the world you choose to live in - you will make it just as real
>> as your worst fears.
>> And as part of that creation you will always be the victimised outsider
>> who never quite knows enough. Who always finds the "final proof" just
>> out of reach etc.
>
> Why not just make a funny face and pretend you're the boogeyman too.
> *eyeroll*
Well, Bob seems to think I am.
Why don't you ask him who he thinks I am?
> Play with your own fears if that is how you get your jollies, racist,
> but do not leave them laying about here like a steaming turd and
> expect anyone else to buy into them.
You're a retard.
Randgrithr
wrote:
> Randgrithr wrote:
> > On Jun 30, 12:10 pm, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax <dirk.bru...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> >> Beware the world you choose to live in - you will make it just as real
> >> as your worst fears.
> >> And as part of that creation you will always be the victimised outsider
> >> who never quite knows enough. Who always finds the "final proof" just
> >> out of reach etc.
>
> > Why not just make a funny face and pretend you're the boogeyman too.
> > *eyeroll*
>
> Well, Bob seems to think I am.
> Why don't you ask him who he thinks I am?
>
> > Play with your own fears if that is how you get your jollies, racist,
> > but do not leave them laying about here like a steaming turd and
> > expect anyone else to buy into them.
>
> You're a retard.
You're a racist troll.
Randgríðr