Hey All
jessi....@gmail.com
im thinkin bout gettin involved in this little movement u all half
goin here
anythin i shud kno???
<3 krystal albnon
lmng...@myrealbox.com
They will charge you money for several course.
One is "Study Tech", the other is "Successful Communications".
Neither of them will actually teach you to spell, think, or write.
Fred Durks
Hey Krystal, I say go for it!
It's like summer camp.
Except at this camp, you can never leave. But that's ok because
eventually they'll extract every penny out of you so you won't have
anywhere to go except that camp.
At this camp you'll learn fun things like:
Disconnection
(You can't be with or talk to friends or family that are not
Scientologists)
The RPF
(You've been bad. Now get in that cold locker, put on a grey t-shirt
and no rice and beans for you)
"Shutting the fuck up" and "don't ask any questions"
And my favorite, How a 1950's science fiction writer can start a multi
billion dollar cult
But it doesn't just end there.
Pretty soon you'll be OT3 and learn about Xenu the galactic overlord
and his space adventures 75 million years ago. And, if you get high
enough in the OT levels you'll soon be able to fly and kill people
with a thought, just like Tom Cruise!
On a serious note, both you and your boyfriend should watch the below
videos and read the info on the links. It will take you just an hour
or two and save you tens of thousands of dollars.
WATCH - Scientology Deaths - The Jeremy Perkins story - on CBS 48
hours
http://www.scientomogy.com/jeremy_perkins.php
WATCH - The South Park Scientology episode - nominated for an Emmy
http://www.scientomogy.com/south_park_emmy.php
WATCH - 'The Bridge' - The movie the "church" of Scientology does not
want you to see
http://www.scientomogy.com/the_bridge.php
Services not rendered at Narconon - No refund to Greg Beha
http://www.scientomogy.com/narconon_scam.php
http://www.lermanet.com
http://www.xenu.net
http://www.lisamcpherson.org
Krystal
> One is "Study Tech", the other is "Successful Communications".
>
> Neither of them will actually teach you to spell, think, or write.
lol
k thnx
Krystal
wrote:
>
> WATCH - The South Park Scientology episode - nominated for an Emmyhttp://www.scientomogy.com/south_park_emmy.php
>
> WATCH - 'The Bridge' - The movie the "church" of Scientology does not
>
> Services not rendered at Narconon - No refund to Greg Behahttp://www.scientomogy.com/narconon_scam.php
>
> http://www.lermanet.comhttp://www.xenu.nethttp://www.lisamcpherson.org
um
ok
that wuz weird
Fred Durks
Yeah, I was just telling a story
check out the links :)
Krystal
yea
n i jus watched that movie
it wuz kinda wierd
Fred Durks
Which video was weird?
Have you seen the South Park video? That's what they eventually teach
you in Scientology.
Fred Durks
It gets weirder....... keep reading!
John
<jessi....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1171507995.6...@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
Check out www.xenu.net for some critical analysis of scientology.
LagsAlot
if your b/f is a hardcore scientologist and you attempt to show him the
truth about the cult he is involved with, then he may choose scientology
over you
if he is willing to wade through the massive amount of information about
scientology that is available on the internet, then by all means encourage
him to do so
it can be a bit overwhelming at first, but if he wants to learn the true
nature of scientology, the information is out there waiting for him
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=xenu&btnG=Google+Search is a good place
to start
Krystal
> <jessi.alb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> to start
k this stuff is really wierd
my b/f isnt especially friendly to critics
he says that scientology is based soley on dianetics n not sum alien
god lik u say
how do u tell sum1 bout this kinda thing????
or r u lyin??????
President Obama. Get used to it.
Yeah, have your butt fuck teach you how to spell.
---
"Then sit back and watch the Scientology cult try to
shove the shit back into the horse." -- LagsAlot
"...puis, le bon critique devrait s'asseoir et contempler
la secte en train de s'efforcer de remettre le crottin
dans le cul du cheval." -- Same thing in French (roger.gonnet)
Phineas Fogg
<jessi....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1171507995.6...@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
Run
Phineas
Phineas Fogg
"Krystal" <jessi....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1171517388.4...@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
L. R. Hubbard's own handwriting, and the transcript of that handwriting is
just below it:
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/OTIII
Phineas
Fred Durks
> On Feb 14, 9:14 pm, "LagsAlot" <texassold...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > <jessi.alb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:1171507995.6...@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > my name is krystal n my b/f is a scientologist
>
> > > im thinkin bout gettin involved in this little movement u all half
> > > goin here
>
> > > anythin i shud kno???
>
> > > <3 krystal albnon
>
> > if your b/f is a hardcore scientologist and you attempt to show him the
> > truth about the cult he is involved with, then he may choose scientology
> > over you
>
> > if he is willing to wade through the massive amount of information about
> > scientology that is available on the internet, then by all means encourage
> > him to do so
>
> > it can be a bit overwhelming at first, but if he wants to learn the true
> > nature of scientology, the information is out there waiting for him
>
> > to start
>
> k this stuff is really wierd
> my b/f isnt especially friendly to critics
> he says that scientology is based soley on dianetics n not sum alien
> god lik u say
> how do u tell sum1 bout this kinda thing????
> or r u lyin??????
Tell your boyfriend to watch Hubbard in his own words:
http://www.scientomogy.com/xenu_space_opera.php
Krystal
Krystal
i just watched sum of xenutv and she sounds really inspiring
barbz
All you need to know is, it's a destructive cult full of mass weirdness
and viciousness if you don't agree with them.
--
Barb
Chaplain, ARSCC (wdne)
"Keep fighting for freedom and justice, beloveds, but don't forget to
have fun doin' it. Lord, let your laughter ring forth. Be outrageous,
ridicule the fraidy-cats, rejoice in all the oddities that freedom can
produce."
--Molly Ivins
barbz
Scientology genesis story. Now, your bf is obviously at the bottom of
the Bridge, in the Dianetics phase, but there's so much more to it than
that. Once he completes the Dianetics courses, if he still has money
left he will be urged to continue on to the OT levels, the next step.
If he ever reaches OTIII, he will learn for himself about the Xenu
story. By then, he will have paid up to $300,000 to get there, but most
Scientologists never do. Most Scientologists never learn about the space
opera.
See, in the beginning, the courses aren't as whacky. They get weirder
the farther up you go, and the deeper you're indoctrinated or brainwashed.
The whole thing is designed to
1. extract as much money from the mark as possible
2. develop a dependence upon Scientology
3. impose mental conditioning and indoctrination so that you will accept
the upper level nonsense
4. Getting the individual to go on staff if they can't afford to proceed.
It is a process that is very effective. It is incremental
indoctrination. At some point, your bf will probably leave you if you
refuse to go along with it. You should get used to that idea now, and
accept it. It's very hard to talk to a True Believer from a critical
standpoint. They won't listen, they'll say you're lying, and they'll be
urged to disconnect from you. Get used to that idea right now.
If you know the difference between anecdotal "evidence" and material
that is documented, you'll know we're not lying. One of the first things
new Scientologists learn is how NOT to listen to anything critical or
negative about the cult.
How do you tell someone about it? If they're 'in,' it's very difficult.
However, MOST people don't stay in very long. As soon as the atmosphere
gets abusive (and it will if he joins staff) they leave, usually within
a year or two. Paying customers are called 'publics,' and they're
treated much better than staff. If bf can afford to keep buying courses,
he could be in for years. You have a problem!
He will be taught that, if something goes wrong, it's either his fault,
or he's hooked up with someone who is a Potential Trouble Source. (that
could be you) and they will convince him that he must disconnect from
that trouble source.
He will also be trained to give Scientology props if something goes
right in his life. That is called Associative Conditioning, a basic
tactic used by the cult to keep people in.
So, like I said, you got a problem. You're either going to have to go
with the flow and sign up yourself, or dump the chump and keep looking.
That's the way it works. And it does work quite effectively. Sorry.
barbz
threatened by CO$ lawyers for having it on their websites. I should
know. I'm one of them.
barbz
> all this makes me VERY scared
>
government allows this sort of thing to continue?
barbz
> is "magoo" on here still?????
>
> i just watched sum of xenutv and she sounds really inspiring
>
she'll probably respond.
Noisiv
Yeah.
l3rn2trol
Also check this out:
For only $ 18.90 plus delivery costs
http://www.spreadshirt.com/shop.php?op=article&article_id=937349
Ball of Fluff
news:1171507995.6...@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
Church members are really into convert-making. One might say they're
evangelical.
They will probably try to push you into joining.
Also, if you don't, if your boyfriend gets at all stressed, sick, upset, or
whatever, they will likely blame it on you and tell him you are a bad person
and that he should leave you.
C
Ball of Fluff
news:1171517388.4...@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Well, it's not a ~god~, anyway. Scn has no gods.
Scn does proceed from Dianetics but even early on in its study, in taped
lectures, there's stuff about "whole track" (previous lives) incidents that
involve space opera.
He wouldn't know about Xenu yet since that's "upper level" stuff but there's
plenty of mention of whole track/space opera in earlier stuff and he WILL
run across it long before he'd get to any upper level stuff.
> how do u tell sum1 bout this kinda thing????
> or r u lyin??????
If people were lying to you, do you really think they'd ~tell~ you?
But, no, they aren't lying.
C
Krystal
im going 2 tell my bf bout this group
<3 krystal
barbz
I predict that he will:
1. Say it's only a few ex-members who couldn't live up to Scientology's
"high standards."
2. That this newsgroup is nothing but a bunch of criminals telling lies
about Scientology.
3. That as soon as you tell him about it, he will run to his
Scientologist masters and they will tell him he must disconnect from you.
Let me know how many of these predictions come true.
--
Barb (http://www.religiousfreedomwatch.org is the true face of Scientology)
ida...@aol.com
> Krystal wrote:
> > thnx everyone
>
> > im going 2 tell my bf bout this group
>
> > <3 krystal
>
> I predict that he will:
>
> 1. Say it's only a few ex-members who couldn't live up to Scientology's
> "high standards."
>
> 2. That this newsgroup is nothing but a bunch of criminals telling lies
> about Scientology.
>
> 3. That as soon as you tell him about it, he will run to his
> Scientologist masters and they will tell him he must disconnect from you.
>
> Let me know how many of these predictions come true.
>
> --
> Chaplain, ARSCC (wdne)
>
> "Keep fighting for freedom and justice, beloveds, but don't forget to
> have fun doin' it. Lord, let your laughter ring forth. Be outrageous,
> ridicule the fraidy-cats, rejoice in all the oddities that freedom can
> produce."
>
> --Molly Ivins
You can tell your boy friend when he pays for the OT8 he will find who
Hubbard says is GOD. Sickening but true.
Ida
"Propaganda does not deceive people; it merely helps them to
deceive themselves." Eric Hoeffer
Krystal
> > thnx everyone
>
> > im going 2 tell my bf bout this group
>
> > <3 krystal
>
> I predict that he will:
>
> 1. Say it's only a few ex-members who couldn't live up to Scientology's
> "high standards."
>
> 2. That this newsgroup is nothing but a bunch of criminals telling lies
> about Scientology.
>
> 3. That as soon as you tell him about it, he will run to his
> Scientologist masters and they will tell him he must disconnect from you.
>
> Let me know how many of these predictions come true.
>
> --
> Chaplain, ARSCC (wdne)
>
> "Keep fighting for freedom and justice, beloveds, but don't forget to
> have fun doin' it. Lord, let your laughter ring forth. Be outrageous,
> ridicule the fraidy-cats, rejoice in all the oddities that freedom can
> produce."
>
> --Molly Ivins
wow
ur rite
i asked him about it last nite and he sent a message calling you guys
a hoax
i get to see him today so maybe i can show him more and change his
mind about this
Rev Norle Enturbulata
(Well, that'll improve his Thursday, won't it?)
Good luck, and remain yourself throughout.
--
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2535187,00.html
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/9363363/inside_scientology
http://PerkinsTragedy.org
http://xenu.com-it.net/txt/ildikoe.htm
http://theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com/
http://www.xenu.net
http://www.xenutv.com
http://www.scientology-lies.com
http://www.whyaretheydead.net
http://www.scientology-kills.org
Rev. Norle Enturbulata
"Church" of Cartoonism
*
* " You can write that down in your book in great big letters. The only way
you can control anybody is to lie to them."
* -- L. Ron Hubbard, "Technique 88"
*
* "...Never discuss Scientology with the critic. Just discuss his or her
crimes, known and unknown. And act completely confident that those crimes
exist...."
* L. Ron Hubbard, "Critics of Scientology", November 5, 1967
*
* "All men shall be my slaves! All women shall succumb to my charms! All
mankind shall grovel at my feet and not know why!"
- L. Ron Hubbard, "Personal Affirmations"
barbz
Chances are, he'll refuse to look. It all depends how far into the
mindf**k he's been sucked into. Prepare to be dumped!
--
Barb
ida...@aol.com
> Krystal wrote:
> > On Feb 15, 9:25 am, barbz <xenub...@netscape.net> wrote:
> >> Krystal wrote:
> >>> thnx everyone
> >>> im going 2 tell my bf bout this group
> >>> <3 krystal
> >> I predict that he will:
>
> >> 1. Say it's only a few ex-members who couldn't live up to Scientology's
> >> "high standards."
>
> >> 2. That this newsgroup is nothing but a bunch of criminals telling lies
> >> about Scientology.
>
> >> 3. That as soon as you tell him about it, he will run to his
> >> Scientologist masters and they will tell him he must disconnect from you.
>
> >> Let me know how many of these predictions come true.
>
> >> --
> >> Chaplain, ARSCC (wdne)
>
> >> "Keep fighting for freedom and justice, beloveds, but don't forget to
> >> have fun doin' it. Lord, let your laughter ring forth. Be outrageous,
> >> ridicule the fraidy-cats, rejoice in all the oddities that freedom can
> >> produce."
>
> >> --Molly Ivins
>
> > wow
> > ur rite
>
> > i asked him about it last nite and he sent a message calling you guys
> > a hoax
> > i get to see him today so maybe i can show him more and change his
> > mind about this
>
> Chances are, he'll refuse to look. It all depends how far into the
> mindf**k he's been sucked into. Prepare to be dumped!
>
> --
> Barb
> Chaplain, ARSCC (wdne)
>
> "Keep fighting for freedom and justice, beloveds, but don't forget to
> have fun doin' it. Lord, let your laughter ring forth. Be outrageous,
> ridicule the fraidy-cats, rejoice in all the oddities that freedom can
> produce."
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Sometimes being "dumped" is the best thing that can happen.
Strapped to a guy who has already "bought" the scam of
L Ron Hubbard tells me you are dealing with a loser.
Ida Camburn
" I guess a definition of a lunatic is a man surrounded by them."
Ezra Pound
Zinj
@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>, ida...@aol.com says...
> On Feb 15, 11:18=EF=BF=BDam, barbz <xenub...@netscape.net> wrote:
> > Krystal wrote:
> > > On Feb 15, 9:25 am, barbz <xenub...@netscape.net> wrote:
> > >> Krystal wrote:
> > >>> thnx everyone
> > >>> im going 2 tell my bf bout this group
> > >>> <3 krystal
> > >> I predict that he will:
> >
> > >> 1. Say it's only a few ex-members who couldn't live up to Scientology's
> > >> "high standards."
> >
> > >> 2. That this newsgroup is nothing but a bunch of criminals telling lies
> > >> about Scientology.
> >
> > >> 3. That as soon as you tell him about it, he will run to his
> ou.
> >
> > >> Let me know how many of these predictions come true.
> >
> > >> --
> gy)
> > >> Chaplain, ARSCC (wdne)
> >
> > >> "Keep fighting for freedom and justice, beloveds, but don't forget to
> > >> have fun doin' it. Lord, let your laughter ring forth. Be outrageous,
> > >> ridicule the fraidy-cats, rejoice in all the oddities that freedom can
> > >> produce."
> >
> >
> > > wow
> > > ur rite
> >
> > > i asked him about it last nite and he sent a message calling you guys
> > > a hoax
> > > i get to see him today so maybe i can show him more and change his
> > > mind about this
> >
> > Chances are, he'll refuse to look. It all depends how far into the
> > mindf**k he's been sucked into. Prepare to be dumped!
> >
> > --
> > Barb
> > Chaplain, ARSCC (wdne)
> >
> > "Keep fighting for freedom and justice, beloveds, but don't forget to
> > have fun doin' it. Lord, let your laughter ring forth. Be outrageous,
> > ridicule the fraidy-cats, rejoice in all the oddities that freedom can
> > produce."
> >
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Sometimes being "dumped" is the best thing that can happen.
> Strapped to a guy who has already "bought" the scam of
> L Ron Hubbard tells me you are dealing with a loser.
>
> Ida Camburn
Well, he could always try the 'old standard' method :)
Tell the 'Church' (specifically his 'Ethics Officer') that while
he's in a relationship with someone who's 'antago', it doesn't
bother him; he's 'not PTS' so as far as he's concerned the
'situation is handled'.
Nothing like the reaction of the 'Church' to its own policies to
wake up even a 'loser'.
Zinj
--
You Can Lead a Clam to Reason; but You Can't Make Him Think
John
"Krystal" <jessi....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1171530211....@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> all this makes me VERY scared
>
Something else to remember... you now most likely know more about the upper
levels of scientology than your boyfriend, as this stuff is kept secret
until you are "ready" for it. He will probably genuinely not know about
xenu, or believe the stories he is told, that it's all made up by critics.
Krystal
> > thnx everyone
>
> > im going 2 tell my bf bout this group
>
> > <3 krystal
>
> I predict that he will:
>
> 1. Say it's only a few ex-members who couldn't live up to Scientology's
> "high standards."
>
> 2. That this newsgroup is nothing but a bunch of criminals telling lies
> about Scientology.
>
> 3. That as soon as you tell him about it, he will run to his
> Scientologist masters and they will tell him he must disconnect from you.
>
> Let me know how many of these predictions come true.
>
> --
> Chaplain, ARSCC (wdne)
>
> "Keep fighting for freedom and justice, beloveds, but don't forget to
> have fun doin' it. Lord, let your laughter ring forth. Be outrageous,
> ridicule the fraidy-cats, rejoice in all the oddities that freedom can
> produce."
>
> --Molly Ivins
he did #3 too
he hasnt "disconnected" from me tho
he saw this thread too
barbz
I wonder how he felt when he saw how predictable his behavior has
become. That would disturb me, if I were him, you know?
Like, all these strangers already know his future or something.
Wooo...spooky!
So now, I can guarantee that, if you persist, he WILL be told that you
are 'PTS' (potential trouble source) and he cannot possibly go further
into Scientology as long as he's connected to you.
This is part of the tactic used to control him. It's like cutting him
out of the herd, and cutting him off, bit by bit, from the "outside
world." This will turn him more dependent on Scientology and his new
friends (who will dump him like a hot potato if he ever gets out of step
with them) and will keep him from being exposed to "entheta," that is,
everything Scientology doesn't agree with.
Watch and see. The process has already begun. Tory (Magoo) was in for
thirty years. When she left (and she did leave, regardless of what the
cult says) her husband left her, and all her good friends dumped her,
leaving her isolated and alone. Or so they thought. She lost her whole
familiar life, but made many new and real friends on the outside.
Friends who won't abandon her because some jerkass cult says they have to.
Scientology is all about control. They say who you can talk to, what you
can read, and who your friends may be. They don't tell you they're doing
this, of course, it's a bit more subtle than that. But it is being done
right now to your bf. If he pays attention, he'll see that. For both of
your sakes, I hope he's paying attention.
--
Barb
lmng...@myrealbox.com
prefer spending his hard earned money on scientology courses and
auditing instead of flowers, jewelry, and dinners in nice restaurants
with you.
Krystal
he said that if they tell him to disconnect from me then he will leave
i thot he was more active but he has only taken a couple of courses
nothing big
thnx for the help everybody!!!!!!
<3 krystal
Krystal
oops i better B more spisific(did i spell that rite???)
he will leave scientology if they tell him to "disconnect" from me
he says no religion shud run ur life like that
thnx again!!!!!
Kevin Brady
You are welcome. Here's some advice: he's going to "handle or disconnect"
from you. You are going to be seen as a person emanating "entheta"
(turbulent emotion or "negative vibes"). His job will be to determine if
you are the source of the "entheta", or if you are just passing it along
from a suppressive source (like alt.religion.scientology). If so, he will
do what he can to prevent you from looking at this newsgroup. In the end,
you will either lose him to the Church, or he will lose the Church, unless
you decide to enter the Church as well.
Make up your mind what it's worth, and cut and run when you hit that point.
Stephen Von Hatten
> "Krystal" <jessi.alb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Wow! After reading over this particular topic with Krystal at my side,
I've come to a few conclusions. After reading this, you will probably
do the following, just as I did what Barbz said I would do. You will
either:
1. Tell me what a liar and one-sided bafoon I am.
2. Think that I'm a liar and/or an idiot and not tell me.
3. You will ignore this post altogether.
Either one is fine with me.
Let me start out by mentioning that you folks did a "great job" at
trying to scare my girlfriend away from Scientology and myself.
Congratulations on that! Even though I am not a very active
Scientologist, I am still one that holds the organization and RELIGION
in somewhat high regard. Maybe I'm acting out of ignorance; maybe I'm
not. As a Scientologist though, I have a few comments that turn to
questions.
If you will:
# Even though I have stated that if Scientology asks me to disconnect
from Krystal (which I don't believe they will and haven't, but for the
sake of argument let's say you're right), I will then disconnect from
Scientology. I know I have a good girlfriend when I come across them.
This one is definitely a keeper from what I know and have observed.
# Second, I find it funny how you critics say that Scientology
destroys families by "disconnecting" from each other, yet you turn
around and tell Krystal to do the exact same thing that you all are
protesting. Do I smell a contradiction or is it just a double
standard?
Continuing with that point, no one wants to be around people that bash
your religion all of the time. Christians certainly don't. Are they a
cult in this respect as well? Don't believe me? How often does a
conservative Christian hang out (on his own free time) with a vulgar
(and by vulgar I mean cussing) atheist who hates Christianity.
# This alleged "monster" that you pose yourselves against... if it's
so bad (in the respect that it destroys families and friends), why do
you have to tell Krystal to disconnect from me? Is it perhaps the
other way around? Scientology critics disconnect themselves from
Scientologists instead?
That may not be the case all of the time, but from what I have
observed here, that is the case to me. And what's true for me is what
I have observed. You folks ought to rethink your perspectives on this.
Fred Durks
<stephen.vonhat...@gmail.com> wrote:
Holy crap! The wai Krystal wus tiping... I thought both you and her
were like 13 or somthing. You type you're like 30+
I don't know what state you're in but isn't that illegal?
Nobody is telling Krystal to disconnect from you, but it's a %100 fact
that Scientology will eventually tell you to leave her because she is
PTS
Read more here:
www.stopdisconnection.com
www.religiousshunning.org
Also, did you see the video on this site?
http://www.scientomogy.com/xenu_space_opera.php
That shows how insane L Ron Hubbard and Scientology get. It's
directly from L Ron Hubbard's own mouth so you can't debate that one.
--------------------------
Also, I don't think this thread is for real. The way Krystal setup
this thread and now the boyfriend is on here pushing it a whole other
direction against critics. I smell some kind of OSA op. I'm calling
Shenanigans!
If I'm wrong, sorry about that. You can't always be right when
calling Shenanigans.
barbz
You totally missed the point of my prediction, which you admit was
correct. Scientology has a mind-set that makes such reaction
predictable. But see, you're addressing wogs with free minds. We do not
react as predictably. So, aside from the three things mentioned above,
we might also possibly
4. treat you as a victim of a vicious mindfuck
5. continue an open discussion with you
6. offer you links, verifiable facts and information
7. tell you we will help you if you ever need it
>
> Either one is fine with me.
>
> Let me start out by mentioning that you folks did a "great job" at
> trying to scare my girlfriend away from Scientology and myself.
> Congratulations on that! Even though I am not a very active
> Scientologist, I am still one that holds the organization and RELIGION
> in somewhat high regard. Maybe I'm acting out of ignorance; maybe I'm
> not. As a Scientologist though, I have a few comments that turn to
> questions.
Oh, you are definately acting out of ignorance, no doubt about it.
Fortunately, ignorance is curable with large doses of information.
>
> If you will:
>
> # Even though I have stated that if Scientology asks me to disconnect
> from Krystal (which I don't believe they will and haven't, but for the
> sake of argument let's say you're right), I will then disconnect from
> Scientology. I know I have a good girlfriend when I come across them.
> This one is definitely a keeper from what I know and have observed.
That is excellent news, and I'm sure Krystal feels the same way about
you, or she wouldn't have posted her concerns to this newsgroup.
>
> # Second, I find it funny how you critics say that Scientology
> destroys families by "disconnecting" from each other, yet you turn
> around and tell Krystal to do the exact same thing that you all are
> protesting. Do I smell a contradiction or is it just a double
> standard?
You are generalizing. Maybe some people told her to run, but not all.
Try to overcome this pigeonholing behavior, it's one of the things
Scientology teaches one to do, and it's often fallacious.
Not everyone told Krystal to disconnect from you. Some people pointed
out to her that, at some point, you WILL be told to handle her. Failing
that, you WILL be told to disconnect from her. You're not the first
person to go through this experience. Anyone who has been reading this
newsgroup for a while has seen it. Scientology is nothing if not
predictable. The "tech" cannot be altered or modified. It is stuck where
Ron put it, smack dab in the '50s mindset in which it was written.
>
> Continuing with that point, no one wants to be around people that bash
> your religion all of the time. Christians certainly don't. Are they a
> cult in this respect as well? Don't believe me? How often does a
> conservative Christian hang out (on his own free time) with a vulgar
> (and by vulgar I mean cussing) atheist who hates Christianity.
How often does a Christian church stalk, harrass, and phone in false
police complaints about their critics? You are getting hung up on the
religious angle, just as Scientology does. The fact is, very few people
criticise the belief system; it is the criminal, abusive actions of
Scientology that people protest. Do you know about the RPF? Have you
been told that it's just a sort of reeducation project? Have you read
any of the accounts of people being forced to do hard labour, eat
scraps, and prohibited from leaving if they wish? There are many horror
stories about the RPF. Surely not ALL these people are lying!
>
> # This alleged "monster" that you pose yourselves against... if it's
> so bad (in the respect that it destroys families and friends), why do
> you have to tell Krystal to disconnect from me? Is it perhaps the
> other way around? Scientology critics disconnect themselves from
> Scientologists instead?
Again, you offer a false argument. Maybe some people told her that, but
most did not. Flunk! Start over!
>
> That may not be the case all of the time, but from what I have
> observed here, that is the case to me. And what's true for me is what
> I have observed. You folks ought to rethink your perspectives on this.
So should you. You are operating with false data provided you by your
"church." I'll tell you how to find out what's true. Tell them you
posted to ARS and see how truly free you are!
Ball of Fluff
news:1172041651.7...@t69g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
Dear Steven,
I was in CofS for years. In many ways, I had a great time there. I made
friends. And I still value the things I learned there about Scientology.
Some people here have a real problem with that, too, as many here think no
one should study Scn or use anything from it at all, in CofS or out of it.
So hopefully I can provide a sort of middle ground since I am still a
Scientologist.
There are some things that go on in CofS that are pretty bad. One does not
always see them right away. It depends on how immersed into the group one
is. People who are in the Sea Org certainly see them. Spend a goodly amount
of time on staff and you will see them.
I've seen the church expell people for leaving staff before their contract
was up after breaking all the promises to the person. I've known and known
of people who were threatened with expulsion if they didn't allow or even
make their kids join the Sea Org.
There are some real problems with the organization.
I personally think the study of Scn is worth bothering with, but I'd never
go back to CofS.
Unlike some here, though, I'm not going to freak out if someone opts to be
in or stay in CofS, but since no one gets diplomatic immunity from me, I'm
also going to say exactly what occurs there. I will not hold back anymore
than anyone else does.
I'd also like to point out that this is a critical forum. Yes, anyone can
post here re Scn but this is a critical forum. it was started for that
purpose.
Anyone who reads the posts here for a day or two will immediately figure out
that this is a critical forum. Krystal opted to ask her questions on a forum
she knew to be critical. She's an adult and she elected to do that.
So it may not be a good idea to fault people on a critical forum for
candidly speaking their opinions to someone who _sought_ _them_ _out_.
>
> If you will:
>
> # Even though I have stated that if Scientology asks me to disconnect
> from Krystal (which I don't believe they will and haven't, but for the
> sake of argument let's say you're right), I will then disconnect from
> Scientology. I know I have a good girlfriend when I come across them.
> This one is definitely a keeper from what I know and have observed.
Sometimes they ask people to disconnect, sometimes not. It depends on if
there's some major shit storm where, say, it's found out (or someone thinks
they found out ) that the wife/girlfriend/boyfriend etc is saying critical
and antagonistic things and won't be "handled". If you were to say you were
having doubts or anything, they would start looking at you guys's
relationship.
Sometimes disconnection is just used as a threat. I've known of people who
were made to do things like stay on staff when they didn't want to because
they would lose their families.
I was getting in trouble with CofS for posting here. They said I couldn't
post here unless I was an operative which, of course, I wasn't. So I got
some flak and it went on and on and it was all pretty dreary. At one point
they said they'd expel me (which they did but only after I walked away
first) but if they did, then my husband could not stay connected to me and
still be in CofS. When they saw that he was, well, like you are from what
you say, they expelled him, too, along with me a year or so later on a
trumped up charge.
So there's an example of where it's used as a threat, as a possiblity, to
keep people in line.
>
> # Second, I find it funny how you critics say that Scientology
> destroys families by "disconnecting" from each other, yet you turn
> around and tell Krystal to do the exact same thing that you all are
> protesting. Do I smell a contradiction or is it just a double
> standard?
Well, a lot of critics are evangelical. They think no one should do Scn (I'm
not with them on that one) and that no one should be in CofS (I actually
agree with that, though I think it would be fine if every single CofS member
knew what was going on and could and would speak up about it.). So what a
lot of people here probably hoped was that they'd get her to get YOU out of
CofS.
Not same thing as what you are saying.
>
> Continuing with that point, no one wants to be around people that bash
> your religion all of the time. Christians certainly don't. Are they a
> cult in this respect as well? Don't believe me? How often does a
> conservative Christian hang out (on his own free time) with a vulgar
> (and by vulgar I mean cussing) atheist who hates Christianity.
Well, I sought out this forum, actually, just to do that, when I was still
in CofS. I was horrified, initially, when I found the forum, but then things
people said they had experienced, well, I can't betray confidences, but
let's just say I started to verify these things and found that they were
true.
So I wanted to know what was going on and what CofS was NOT telling me. It
turns out that there was a whole lot they weren't telling me.
>
> # This alleged "monster" that you pose yourselves against... if it's
> so bad (in the respect that it destroys families and friends), why do
> you have to tell Krystal to disconnect from me? Is it perhaps the
> other way around? Scientology critics disconnect themselves from
> Scientologists instead?
Well, there are all sorts of people here. They are NOT all the same.
They didn't ALL tell Krystal ANYTHING. (plus, don't forget, she sought out
the advice of people she knew to be critics on a forum she knew was and is
critical).
Some people here really freak out when someone like me, BasicBasic, and
Ralph Hilton (all of whom post here on and off and there've been a couple
others in the distant past) still study and are interested in Scn after
leaving CofS.
And some other people here don't care at all.
But it's like anything else. On debate forums, you'll always find someone
who is willing to tell you what you should do. And you don't have to do what
they say and you don't have to ignore them, either, if you don't want to.
It's up to you whom you listen to. You are an adult. You are free to talk to
or ignore anybody.
I posted here under my real name when I was still in CofS and I still allude
to it. Because I never made ANY attempt to hide my identity, I got dragged
in for a lot of "handlings" which successively got ruder and more
contemptuous. If you continue to post here and it's under or alluding to
your real name, they will hassle you, too.
>
> That may not be the case all of the time, but from what I have
> observed here, that is the case to me. And what's true for me is what
> I have observed. You folks ought to rethink your perspectives on this.
I don't agree with everyone here (would be odd if I did. Many different
individuals here) but I have to point out that there are some things about
the organization of which I think you are mainly unaware.
And, again, I will reiterate: Krystal sought out critics on a critical
forum. To expect them not to answer her candidly from their own perspective
is unrealistic.
Thank you,
Claire M. Swazey
www.claireswazey.com
Ball of Fluff
news:1172044091.1...@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I've seen a lot of people on the 'net post the way Krystal does. Some of
them are teens and a lot of them are much much older.
>
> I don't know what state you're in but isn't that illegal?
>
> Nobody is telling Krystal to disconnect from you, but it's a %100 fact
> that Scientology will eventually tell you to leave her because she is
> PTS
>
Not necessarily, Fred. They will if Steven starts fussing or getting sick a
lot or expressing doubts, yes. But if he doesn't, they won't.
My Mom didn't like Scn and my Dad was an exmember who got his money back and
they didn't ever tell me to disconnect from them.
I also, before John, had a boyfriend who wasn't a Scn'ist, and we were in a
committed relationship. They thought he was a loser, but they didn't flat
out tell me to dump him.
As long as I was doing what they wanted, they didn't.
Once I wasn't doing what they wanted, then the coercion did start.
So this is not exactly what you are saying.
So bottom line- 'pends on if the person rocks the boat.
So if Steven never rocks the boat, then any pressure on Krystal via Steven
by the church will be to get her to join. I think they could expect a whole
lot of that.
C
barbz
"Anyone" cannot post here. Wait until he tells the org about posting and
reading ARS. Then he'll see the fallacy of this statement. "Anyone but
practicing Scientologists can post here" would be more accurate. And I'm
not talking about people like you, I'm talking about the org-connected
followers of L. Ron Hubbard.
barbz
It comes from the text messaging shorthand, that's all.
>
>> I don't know what state you're in but isn't that illegal?
>>
>> Nobody is telling Krystal to disconnect from you, but it's a %100 fact
>> that Scientology will eventually tell you to leave her because she is
>> PTS
>>
>
>
> Not necessarily, Fred. They will if Steven starts fussing or getting sick a
> lot or expressing doubts, yes. But if he doesn't, they won't.
>
> My Mom didn't like Scn and my Dad was an exmember who got his money back and
> they didn't ever tell me to disconnect from them.
>
> I also, before John, had a boyfriend who wasn't a Scn'ist, and we were in a
> committed relationship. They thought he was a loser, but they didn't flat
> out tell me to dump him.
>
> As long as I was doing what they wanted, they didn't.
>
> Once I wasn't doing what they wanted, then the coercion did start.
>
> So this is not exactly what you are saying.
>
> So bottom line- 'pends on if the person rocks the boat.
>
> So if Steven never rocks the boat, then any pressure on Krystal via Steven
> by the church will be to get her to join. I think they could expect a whole
> lot of that.
>
> C
>
> www.claireswazey.com
>
>
Ball of Fluff
>
> > I'd also like to point out that this is a critical forum. Yes, anyone can
> > post here re Scn but this is a critical forum. it was started for that
> > purpose.
>
> "Anyone" cannot post here. Wait until he tells the org about posting and
> reading ARS. Then he'll see the fallacy of this statement. "Anyone but
> practicing Scientologists can post here" would be more accurate. And I'm
> not talking about people like you, I'm talking about the org-connected
> followers of L. Ron Hubbard.
Hi, Barb-ster,
Well, I did tell him CofS' position re a.r.s. and what they do if they
know a CofS member is posting without authorization.
So the comment above just pertains to da rulez of ARSCC (wdne).
C
barbz
Ball of Fluff
> Ball ofFluffwrote:
> > On Feb 21, 7:44 am, barbz <xenub...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> >>> I'd also like to point out that this is a critical forum. Yes, anyone can
> >>> post here re Scn but this is a critical forum. it was started for that
> >>> purpose.
> >> "Anyone" cannot post here. Wait until he tells the org about posting and
> >> reading ARS. Then he'll see the fallacy of this statement. "Anyone but
> >> practicing Scientologists can post here" would be more accurate. And I'm
> >> not talking about people like you, I'm talking about the org-connected
> >> followers of L. Ron Hubbard.
>
> > Hi, Barb-ster,
>
> > Well, I did tell him CofS' position re a.r.s. and what they do if they
> > know a CofS member is posting without authorization.
>
> > So the comment above just pertains to da rulez of ARSCC (wdne).
>
> > C
>
> >www.claireswazey.com
>
> Technically, it got you de-Claired!
Oh noooo!!
Not that!!
I'm meltingggggggggg...I'm disappearing....
Kevin Brady
"Stephen Von Hatten" <stephen....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1172041651.7...@t69g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
Congratulations on having the gumption to respond and take this on. I know
this NG can be aggressive and antagonistic. I am not that way unless
attacked. I'm glad you are willing to communicate.
1. I don't think you are a liar or one-sided buffoon.
2. I don't think you are a liar or an idiot, and I'm quite frank.
3. I won't ignore your posts.
I make no assumptions about you, personally. I offered advice based on my
own previous experience as well as training in administrative policy. I'm a
staff status II, exec status I trained ex-staff member. I have been given
various PTS handlings due to my continued affiliation with high-school
friends who were "druggies" and my parents who were "medicos".
> Let me start out by mentioning that you folks did a "great job" at
> trying to scare my girlfriend away from Scientology and myself.
I'm not interested in scaring people away from scientology, per se, or
yourself in any way. The philosophy of scientology is for the most part
agreeable to me, with certain large caveats: I do not approve of
disconnection (especially enforced disconnection) or declaration of
suppressives without courts of evidence or with kangaroo court mockeries of
such. I also don't approve of Fair Game, which has not really been
retracted, no matter what you might have read. I've been it's target. And
I believe that the materials of the Clearing Course-New OT VII are
violations of c/sing basics, which is why they need to be kept confidential
(in addition to the fact that they are often "wrong items"). As for you,
personally, I have no doubt that you are a good person with positive intent
towards the world.
> Congratulations on that! Even though I am not a very active
> Scientologist, I am still one that holds the organization and RELIGION
> in somewhat high regard.
Alright. I did, particularly while I was on staff, as well. This was prior
to investigating their track record, rather than simply accepting the PR job
they do of making it sound like they are nothing but successful, and
uniformly benign.
> Maybe I'm acting out of ignorance; maybe I'm
> not.
Only you would know.
> As a Scientologist though, I have a few comments that turn to
> questions.
>
> If you will:
>
> # Even though I have stated that if Scientology asks me to disconnect
> from Krystal (which I don't believe they will and haven't, but for the
> sake of argument let's say you're right), I will then disconnect from
> Scientology. I know I have a good girlfriend when I come across them.
> This one is definitely a keeper from what I know and have observed.
I'm glad that you recognize the importance of a good relationship, and how
such a request would violate your own determinism.
> # Second, I find it funny how you critics say that Scientology
> destroys families by "disconnecting" from each other, yet you turn
> around and tell Krystal to do the exact same thing that you all are
> protesting. Do I smell a contradiction or is it just a double
> standard?
Valid point. I don't recommend disconnection from you. I do recommend
CAUTION when a person who is not a scientologist gets involved with someone
who is, because of the dangers of the organization which you either are
unaware of, consider fixable, or agree with.
> Continuing with that point, no one wants to be around people that bash
> your religion all of the time.
Of course not.
> Christians certainly don't. Are they a
> cult in this respect as well?
Don't get too far off the topic. We're not discussing Christianity at
alt.religion.scientology. Christianity is a wide topic, with many different
variations. I don't consider most of them toxic, or cultic, but there
certainly ARE sects which are: such as the Mormon subgroups that subjugate
women. Of course, historically, the Catholics had periods where they
certainly WERE a cult, and where failure to comply with the wishes of the
Inquisition resulted in torture and death, not to mention expulsion from
families and political structures.
> Don't believe me? How often does a
> conservative Christian hang out (on his own free time) with a vulgar
> (and by vulgar I mean cussing) atheist who hates Christianity.
Irrelevant.
> # This alleged "monster" that you pose yourselves against... if it's
> so bad (in the respect that it destroys families and friends), why do
> you have to tell Krystal to disconnect from me?
To the extent that you are an arm of an organization which continues to
follow those practices in present time, you are part of that monster. I
believe you when you say you are unaware of such problems, and that you
won't be part of them. I commend you on that, and hope it doesn't come to
that for you. However, policy dictates that you will eventually be forced
to make such a choice or face being put in "lower conditions" regarding your
third dynamic. If you are public, they will be lenient with you to an
extent. If you become a nuisance to them, however, you will be put in
Liability, minimum.
> Is it perhaps the
> other way around? Scientology critics disconnect themselves from
> Scientologists instead?
Not at all. I invite you, and any other scientologists you find willing and
able to communicate to do so, on this forum or in private mail. You can
reach me at gomo...@hotmail.com: my real name is Kevin Brady, and I was
the Deputy Director of Disbursements at the Boston Day Org in 1990. Prior
to that I had worked as a Course Administrator and as a member of a team of
staff members working in conjunction with a Sea Org mission to put records
in order for the IRS Audit prior to the "War is Over" bit. My ex-wife,
Nitza Freeman (who was Nitza Brady) worked on staff there also, and is
probably now on-staff in one of the LA orgs/missions. We are divorced
because the Church considered me a suppressive person and insisted she be
disconnected from me or "lose her Bridge".
> That may not be the case all of the time, but from what I have
> observed here, that is the case to me. And what's true for me is what
> I have observed. You folks ought to rethink your perspectives on this.
I hope you stick around, I'll be interested to talk to you. Despite my
obvious hostility to current management, and my differences with parts of
your religion (perhaps parts you aren't familiar with), I am NOT hostile to
scientology, or to scientologists. Do well.
>
Stephen Von Hatten
>
> Congratulations on having the gumption to respond and take this on. I know
> this NG can be aggressive and antagonistic. I am not that way unless
> attacked. I'm glad you are willing to communicate.
Well, it's not like attacking you would do any good. That would just
start a flame war, and I am not a troll.
> 1. I don't think you are a liar or one-sided buffoon.
> 2. I don't think you are a liar or an idiot, and I'm quite frank.
> 3. I won't ignore your posts.
Thanks?
> I make no assumptions about you, personally. I offered advice based on my
> own previous experience as well as training in administrative policy. I'm a
> staff status II, exec status I trained ex-staff member. I have been given
> various PTS handlings due to my continued affiliation with high-school
> friends who were "druggies" and my parents who were "medicos".
Uh... ok... You don't think that that requires PTS handlings? I do
have friends that are "druggies" but I stopped hanging out with them a
loooooong time ago. I only talk with one or two on occation now. I've
not had any "PTS handlings" but I think that Scientology wouldn't be
far off from offering that as a help. I just don't think they would
want you to get sucked into that sort of lifestyle.
> I'm not interested in scaring people away from scientology, per se, or
> yourself in any way. The philosophy of scientology is for the most part
> agreeable to me, with certain large caveats: I do not approve of
> disconnection (especially enforced disconnection) or declaration of
> suppressives without courts of evidence or with kangaroo court mockeries of
> such. I also don't approve of Fair Game, which has not really been
> retracted, no matter what you might have read. I've been it's target. And
> I believe that the materials of the Clearing Course-New OT VII are
> violations of c/sing basics, which is why they need to be kept confidential
> (in addition to the fact that they are often "wrong items"). As for you,
> personally, I have no doubt that you are a good person with positive intent
> towards the world.
Well.. uh... maybe you aren't interested, but you all (not just you)
certainly accomplished it. She and I were getting ready to go to the
Santa Barabara Church, but now she refuses. She doesn't want me to be
killed or anything. If that's not paranoia, I don't know what is. And
according to her, you folks instilled that idea in her head. The
organization does NOT kill. And don't even try bringing up that Lisa
McPhearson stuff. There's an alternate explaination floating around
out there and it makes much more sense that "Scientology Kills."
> Valid point. I don't recommend disconnection from you. I do recommend
> CAUTION when a person who is not a scientologist gets involved with someone
> who is, because of the dangers of the organization which you either are
> unaware of, consider fixable, or agree with.
>From what I can see... they are the same. Caution = Disconnection
> > Christians certainly don't. Are they a
> > cult in this respect as well?
>
> Don't get too far off the topic. We're not discussing Christianity at
> alt.religion.scientology. Christianity is a wide topic, with many different
> variations. I don't consider most of them toxic, or cultic, but there
> certainly ARE sects which are: such as the Mormon subgroups that subjugate
> women. Of course, historically, the Catholics had periods where they
> certainly WERE a cult, and where failure to comply with the wishes of the
> Inquisition resulted in torture and death, not to mention expulsion from
> families and political structures.
Sorry... I didn't mean to take this off-topic at all. I just wanted to
show that there are other religions out there that have similar
behaviors. Pretty much any religion is valid... 'cept maybe
Buddhism...?
> > Don't believe me? How often does a
> > conservative Christian hang out (on his own free time) with a vulgar
> > (and by vulgar I mean cussing) atheist who hates Christianity.
>
> Irrelevant.
Actually... I think this is a valid point. It appears that much of
this group seems to be so critical... Most of the critics too. I did
receive a couple of calm responses, though and I do appreciate that.
> > # This alleged "monster" that you pose yourselves against... if it's
> > so bad (in the respect that it destroys families and friends), why do
> > you have to tell Krystal to disconnect from me?
>
> To the extent that you are an arm of an organization which continues to
> follow those practices in present time, you are part of that monster. I
> believe you when you say you are unaware of such problems, and that you
> won't be part of them. I commend you on that, and hope it doesn't come to
> that for you. However, policy dictates that you will eventually be forced
> to make such a choice or face being put in "lower conditions" regarding your
> third dynamic. If you are public, they will be lenient with you to an
> extent. If you become a nuisance to them, however, you will be put in
> Liability, minimum.
I believe I phrased that question incorrectly. What I meant was, why
do you have to do what the organization is supposedly doing or has
done. If it ever did... I don't believe it happens all that much
anymore (if at all). You've been out of Scientology for at least 10
years, correct? Is it really an accurate depiction of the 2007
religion?
> > Is it perhaps the
> > other way around? Scientology critics disconnect themselves from
> > Scientologists instead?
>
> Not at all. I invite you, and any other scientologists you find willing and
> able to communicate to do so, on this forum or in private mail. You can
> reach me at gomo...@hotmail.com: my real name is Kevin Brady, and I was
> the Deputy Director of Disbursements at the Boston Day Org in 1990. Prior
> to that I had worked as a Course Administrator and as a member of a team of
> staff members working in conjunction with a Sea Org mission to put records
> in order for the IRS Audit prior to the "War is Over" bit. My ex-wife,
> Nitza Freeman (who was Nitza Brady) worked on staff there also, and is
> probably now on-staff in one of the LA orgs/missions. We are divorced
> because the Church considered me a suppressive person and insisted she be
> disconnected from me or "lose her Bridge".
Maybe to talk to you, but it sure sounded like it to Krystal and me.
Wait a second... are you the guy that was in the documentary with that
one dude that killed his mom? He stabbed her like.... 70 times or
something?
> > That may not be the case all of the time, but from what I have
> > observed here, that is the case to me. And what's true for me is what
> > I have observed. You folks ought to rethink your perspectives on this.
>
> I hope you stick around, I'll be interested to talk to you. Despite my
> obvious hostility to current management, and my differences with parts of
> your religion (perhaps parts you aren't familiar with), I am NOT hostile to
> scientology, or to scientologists. Do well.
I do appreciate the fact that you aren't so hostile. I hope you will
continue. In the meantime, I have to go. I have a loooong drive ahead
of me.
Hephaestus
wrote:
Good women are hard to find. Keep her by your side to keep you
grounded.
> # Second, I find it funny how you critics say that Scientology
> destroys families by "disconnecting" from each other, yet you turn
> around and tell Krystal to do the exact same thing that you all are
> protesting. Do I smell a contradiction or is it just a double
> standard?
Many here have been hurt by scientology in that exact same way,
they've been left behind, or they've left others behind, and regretted
it. They seek to spare others the pain that they have been through
> Continuing with that point, no one wants to be around people that bash
> your religion all of the time. Christians certainly don't. Are they a
> cult in this respect as well? Don't believe me? How often does a
> conservative Christian hang out (on his own free time) with a vulgar
> (and by vulgar I mean cussing) atheist who hates Christianity.
Actually you're wrong, many new, young Christians (including me) feel
perfectly open and acceptable to debate with the hardest of accusers,
because if you can't stand to have questions asked about your
religion, then maybe it's because you haven't the faith required to be
in it, and I say that as a blanket statement concreing all religions.
Also listening to the other side of the equation can give you a new
perspective on things, they may present you with more problems, but if
you aren't up to the task, and neither is your religion, then maybe
their are genuine problems to be addressed by it. And most certainly
their are grievances to be addressed, their wouldn't be this many
people concerned if their weren't.
BTW, you talk as if talking with people who are vulgar is difficult,
if you wade through the cusswords, you will find genuine pearls of
wisdom in what they say most of the time. Most of the time people who
are directly and purposefully vulgar are using it as a debating tool
to get you off balance, stay calm, and most of the time they will
realise it's not working and then they'll get to debating the actual
topic.
BTW I've never been in scientology, if you wanted to know. Many here
have, many here have been in the upper levels, some never have, it's a
mix.
> # This alleged "monster" that you pose yourselves against... if it's
> so bad (in the respect that it destroys families and friends), why do
> you have to tell Krystal to disconnect from me? Is it perhaps the
> other way around? Scientology critics disconnect themselves from
> Scientologists instead?
As I said, many here have been hurt by scientology, and they would
seek to save her anguish and pain. Many in scientology consider
scientology to be above all else, because since they are after all
saving the palnet, things like family or spouses don't really matter
in the long run.
> That may not be the case all of the time, but from what I have
> observed here, that is the case to me. And what's true for me is what
> I have observed. You folks ought to rethink your perspectives on this
we have and continue to do so, we evolve, we change, our "tech", is
changeable, with every new member a new perspective is brought.
This is the general consensus that we have reached, it doesn't disturb
you at all this many rational sounding, different people from a
multitude of backrounds all arrived at the same conclusion? Most of
us arrived their independantly.
What's true for may not be what's actually true, if you were to live a
lie, would that make it the truth?
Kevin Brady
>> > On Feb 19, 11:49 pm, "Kevin Brady" <gomorr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Congratulations on having the gumption to respond and take this on. I
>> know
>> this NG can be aggressive and antagonistic. I am not that way unless
>> attacked. I'm glad you are willing to communicate.
>
> Well, it's not like attacking you would do any good. That would just
> start a flame war, and I am not a troll.
>
>> 1. I don't think you are a liar or one-sided buffoon.
>> 2. I don't think you are a liar or an idiot, and I'm quite frank.
>> 3. I won't ignore your posts.
>
> Thanks?
>
>> I make no assumptions about you, personally. I offered advice based on
>> my
>> own previous experience as well as training in administrative policy.
>> I'm a
>> staff status II, exec status I trained ex-staff member. I have been
>> given
>> various PTS handlings due to my continued affiliation with high-school
>> friends who were "druggies" and my parents who were "medicos".
>
> Uh... ok... You don't think that that requires PTS handlings?
Not unless they were negatively influencing me (as in overwhelming me into
doing things that were bad for me). They weren't, and aren't. They're good
people who have a problem, or hold a different view of something than I do.
They don't hurt me or insist that I be part of that aspect of their
lifestyle.
> I do
> have friends that are "druggies" but I stopped hanging out with them a
> loooooong time ago. I only talk with one or two on occation now. I've
> not had any "PTS handlings" but I think that Scientology wouldn't be
> far off from offering that as a help. I just don't think they would
> want you to get sucked into that sort of lifestyle.
I'm a pretty strong guy. I don't get sucked into anything... but don't
tell my girlfriend, she thinks she has that power.
Seriously, I'm not worried about getting pulled into other's lifestyles. I
follow my own muse, and have learned the hard way about sublimating my will
to anothers. Won't happen again (not just to another individual, but to any
organization, either).
>> I'm not interested in scaring people away from scientology, per se, or
>> yourself in any way. The philosophy of scientology is for the most part
>> agreeable to me, with certain large caveats: I do not approve of
>> disconnection (especially enforced disconnection) or declaration of
>> suppressives without courts of evidence or with kangaroo court mockeries
>> of
>> such. I also don't approve of Fair Game, which has not really been
>> retracted, no matter what you might have read. I've been it's target.
>> And
>> I believe that the materials of the Clearing Course-New OT VII are
>> violations of c/sing basics, which is why they need to be kept
>> confidential
>> (in addition to the fact that they are often "wrong items"). As for you,
>> personally, I have no doubt that you are a good person with positive
>> intent
>> towards the world.
>
> Well.. uh... maybe you aren't interested, but you all (not just you)
> certainly accomplished it. She and I were getting ready to go to the
> Santa Barabara Church, but now she refuses.
While you might find that to be a bad thing (tm), I don't. If you want her
to do some reading or try scientology auditing or get skills as an auditor,
I have no problem with that, but I would hope she would do it as far away
from the hard-sell and enforced allegiance environment of the Church as she
can. You can see the tech written up by experts online. Try
http://www.freezoneamerica.org/Clearbird/index.html for starters. They are
very much scientologists, they just have nothing to do with the Church.
It's not the religion that is so offensive to the critics, here, for the
most part. It's the organization and the way it hurts people
institutionally. Those actions are not available for public inspection
without digging, and looking at some pretty ugly truths. However, you seem
like the type with the confront necessary to do that. Not everyone can.
Those policies are confidential, by the way, so you won't find access to
them unless you "need to know" in Church channels. You can find some of it
written up online through google searches. According to the Church, the
website I referenced is "squirrel". However, if you compare their write-ups
to the technical course manuals in the Church, you will find that the tech
is all covered very well and faithfully. The words used to convey a concept
are irrelevant: it's the concepts that matter, and the ability to apply
them that makes one competent at the skill of auditing. You can be a
scientologist without the Church. The reforms necessary to make the Church
a safe environment have not occurred, and I don't think that they can occur
as long as they insist on sticking strictly to Hubbard's every word, because
his words preclude exactly those necessary changes.
> She doesn't want me to be
> killed or anything.
Of course not.
> If that's not paranoia, I don't know what is.
I think the concern for YOU being killed is an over-reaction. However, the
concern for you being turned against her I think is valid, unless you are
very strong-willed and willing to really look directly at the truth of the
situation.
I am not aware of the Church ever having actually killed anyone. I'm not
saying that they haven't, but I haven't seen any evidence that they had. I
wouldn't put it past them: it's right in the Code somewhere, something
about not being afraid to kill or be killed in a just cause. A dangerous
line of thinking.
> And
> according to her, you folks instilled that idea in her head.
Differentiate between us. I didn't instill that idea, nor would I try to.
> The
> organization does NOT kill.
How do you know that? I think the best you can say is that you aren't aware
of that organization having killed.
> And don't even try bringing up that Lisa
> McPhearson stuff. There's an alternate explaination floating around
> out there and it makes much more sense that "Scientology Kills."
I'd be happy to hear it, but not on this thread. I wasn't going to bring
her up, but I agree with you. I think her death was a tragedy, and that it
was due to incompetence of the people overseeing the handling of her case.
Those people should have been tried for manslaughter, I think, but I don't
think they had the intent to kill her.
>> Valid point. I don't recommend disconnection from you. I do recommend
>> CAUTION when a person who is not a scientologist gets involved with
>> someone
>> who is, because of the dangers of the organization which you either are
>> unaware of, consider fixable, or agree with.
>
>>From what I can see... they are the same. Caution = Disconnection
Caution is not the same thing. Caution is making sure a situation is safe,
not running from that situation.
>> > Christians certainly don't. Are they a
>> > cult in this respect as well?
>>
>> Don't get too far off the topic. We're not discussing Christianity at
>> alt.religion.scientology. Christianity is a wide topic, with many
>> different
>> variations. I don't consider most of them toxic, or cultic, but there
>> certainly ARE sects which are: such as the Mormon subgroups that
>> subjugate
>> women. Of course, historically, the Catholics had periods where they
>> certainly WERE a cult, and where failure to comply with the wishes of the
>> Inquisition resulted in torture and death, not to mention expulsion from
>> families and political structures.
>
> Sorry... I didn't mean to take this off-topic at all. I just wanted to
> show that there are other religions out there that have similar
> behaviors. Pretty much any religion is valid... 'cept maybe
> Buddhism...?
Perhaps. To the extent that they have those behaviors, they are in need of
reform. If you are going to champion those reforms, I am happy.
>> > Don't believe me? How often does a
>> > conservative Christian hang out (on his own free time) with a vulgar
>> > (and by vulgar I mean cussing) atheist who hates Christianity.
>>
>> Irrelevant.
>
> Actually... I think this is a valid point. It appears that much of
> this group seems to be so critical... Most of the critics too. I did
> receive a couple of calm responses, though and I do appreciate that.
I would agree that this group is very critical. I don't have problems with
legitimate criticism. In fact, I salute truly critical thinking, which to
me means seeing things as they are, not as people represent them. However,
if you mean most of the group is rabidly antagonistic, I think there is some
truth to it. However, there really isn't a "group" per se. There are a
bunch of people posting here, but they don't "belong" or have membership.
Sometimes they take coherent action together around some cause or another,
and might consider each other brothers-in-arms in that cause, but A.R.S. is
not a "group". However, I would agree that most of the posters here are
antagonistic to the Church of Scientology, and some have generalized that
antagonism to the subject of scientology itself, and not just the group or
its leaders that have claimed the subject and have acted criminally and
negligently towards the society they are part of as well as their own
membership.
>> > # This alleged "monster" that you pose yourselves against... if it's
>> > so bad (in the respect that it destroys families and friends), why do
>> > you have to tell Krystal to disconnect from me?
>>
>> To the extent that you are an arm of an organization which continues to
>> follow those practices in present time, you are part of that monster. I
>> believe you when you say you are unaware of such problems, and that you
>> won't be part of them. I commend you on that, and hope it doesn't come
>> to
>> that for you. However, policy dictates that you will eventually be
>> forced
>> to make such a choice or face being put in "lower conditions" regarding
>> your
>> third dynamic. If you are public, they will be lenient with you to an
>> extent. If you become a nuisance to them, however, you will be put in
>> Liability, minimum.
>
> I believe I phrased that question incorrectly. What I meant was, why
> do you have to do what the organization is supposedly doing or has
> done. If it ever did... I don't believe it happens all that much
> anymore (if at all).
If you have access to tech or admin dictionaries, look up the definition of
Command Intention. Who or what is Source? If you are not aligned with
Source, are you PTS, or possibly even Suppressive?
>You've been out of Scientology for at least 10
> years, correct? Is it really an accurate depiction of the 2007
> religion?
You tell me. Is disconnection still practiced? Are people assigned lower
conditions by Ethics Officers? Is a person still considered as having
committed some sort of crime if they don't report themselves for being PTS?
Are they told they are PTS when they are actually in Doubt? When in Doubt,
are they actually provided with statistics, or just left to dub-in stats and
expected to return to the fold?
>> > Is it perhaps the
>> > other way around? Scientology critics disconnect themselves from
>> > Scientologists instead?
>>
>> Not at all. I invite you, and any other scientologists you find willing
>> and
>> able to communicate to do so, on this forum or in private mail. You can
>> reach me at gomo...@hotmail.com: my real name is Kevin Brady, and I
>> was
>> the Deputy Director of Disbursements at the Boston Day Org in 1990.
>> Prior
>> to that I had worked as a Course Administrator and as a member of a team
>> of
>> staff members working in conjunction with a Sea Org mission to put
>> records
>> in order for the IRS Audit prior to the "War is Over" bit. My ex-wife,
>> Nitza Freeman (who was Nitza Brady) worked on staff there also, and is
>> probably now on-staff in one of the LA orgs/missions. We are divorced
>> because the Church considered me a suppressive person and insisted she be
>> disconnected from me or "lose her Bridge".
>
> Maybe to talk to you, but it sure sounded like it to Krystal and me.
Certainly some people calling themselves critics (but who are really just
interested in joining a bandwagon and being "part of" anything, especially
if there's gossip or bashing to be done) who have done what you are saying.
However, there are many legitimate critics, who have looked thoroughly over
the materials of scientology, as well as reviewed their actual record in the
world, as well as Hubbard, himself's record. Such people have many valid
points to consider, no matter where such considerations lead.
That is, if you are actually concerned with obtaining the truth revealed.
If all you want is comfort with a party-line, disregard the criticism and
enjoy the trip. Just don't say you weren't warned.
> Wait a second... are you the guy that was in the documentary with that
> one dude that killed his mom? He stabbed her like.... 70 times or
> something?
No. To my knowledge, I haven't been involved in any documentaries.
>> > That may not be the case all of the time, but from what I have
>> > observed here, that is the case to me. And what's true for me is what
>> > I have observed. You folks ought to rethink your perspectives on this.
>>
>> I hope you stick around, I'll be interested to talk to you. Despite my
>> obvious hostility to current management, and my differences with parts of
>> your religion (perhaps parts you aren't familiar with), I am NOT hostile
>> to
>> scientology, or to scientologists. Do well.
>
> I do appreciate the fact that you aren't so hostile. I hope you will
> continue. In the meantime, I have to go. I have a loooong drive ahead
> of me.
Good roads, good weather to you!
Ball of Fluff
-"Stephen Von Hatten" <stephen....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1172167096.7...@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Well, very few critics are of the "they killed her because they looove
killing" school of thought. It's mainly that she had a psychotic break,
Scientologists were around, no one wanted to take her to a psych ward and
render her an illegal pc (but she'd be alive today) and so they put her on
isolation watch which was grossly mismanaged. Untrained people should not be
in charge of someone like that. The watch went on 17 days and by the time
someone realized she should go to a hospital, was failing physically, it was
too late. But thing is, it doesn't happen all at once- for a person to go
downhill like that. Someone should have spotted it a lot sooner.
So it was criminal neglect. No one called her parents. No one did anything
other than half assed "I fed her a banana" type stuff. I read the isolation
watch logs.
>
>> Valid point. I don't recommend disconnection from you. I do recommend
>> CAUTION when a person who is not a scientologist gets involved with
>> someone
>> who is, because of the dangers of the organization which you either are
>> unaware of, consider fixable, or agree with.
>
>>From what I can see... they are the same. Caution = Disconnection
No they are not the same. Disconnection is when you say you will never
communicate with anyone again and that you will never see them.
It's often directed by CofS. They will make the person disconnect.
I have heard of people who were told to disconnect from family because of an
off policy expulsion then the family got in trouble for not doing so. Later,
when the expulsion was overturned, the previously expelled person was in
trouble for associating with his own family.
I also know of someone who, because she refused to disconnect from a family
member, herself is under a decree just for that, and other family members
aren't allowed to see or talk to HER.
So, no, disconnection doesn't equal caution. Disconnection is a step that a
person takes- often because he is ordered to do so- by someone else because
someone won't toe the line.
I was in some situations where I was in touch with family or friends who had
other things going, like my Dad had left and asked for his money back. I
didn't disconnect from them and I made it clear that there was no problem
there.
Scn teaches that a thetan can handle anything. So if a thetan can- which I
think is true- then one does not need to disconnect from anyone who is PTS,
SP or otherwise doesn't get with the program.
So that's contradictory right there.
I was once expelled for leaving staff before my contract was up. I came in
and did ethics, I pointed out that others had done the same thing with no
repercussions, and I got expelled because someone was pissed off. My friends
said they'd see whomever they wanted and so I kept my friends.
They didn't feel that caution=disconnection.
That is a very insular point of view.
>
>> > Christians certainly don't. Are they a
>> > cult in this respect as well?
>>
>> Don't get too far off the topic. We're not discussing Christianity at
>> alt.religion.scientology. Christianity is a wide topic, with many
>> different
>> variations. I don't consider most of them toxic, or cultic, but there
>> certainly ARE sects which are: such as the Mormon subgroups that
>> subjugate
>> women. Of course, historically, the Catholics had periods where they
>> certainly WERE a cult, and where failure to comply with the wishes of the
>> Inquisition resulted in torture and death, not to mention expulsion from
>> families and political structures.
>
> Sorry... I didn't mean to take this off-topic at all. I just wanted to
> show that there are other religions out there that have similar
> behaviors. Pretty much any religion is valid... 'cept maybe
> Buddhism...?
Except Buddhism? Are you kidding? Tell me you're joking. It's been around
thousands of years and Hubbard himself gave props to it. (Ever hear of Hymn
of Asia?)
>
>> > Don't believe me? How often does a
>> > conservative Christian hang out (on his own free time) with a vulgar
>> > (and by vulgar I mean cussing) atheist who hates Christianity.
>>
>> Irrelevant.
>
> Actually... I think this is a valid point. It appears that much of
> this group seems to be so critical... Most of the critics too. I did
> receive a couple of calm responses, though and I do appreciate that.
Well, great. I'll answer that. I have a good friend- a Lutheran. Very
devout. And he told me that if he wants to question something or talk to the
press or hang out with a non believer, no one in his church tells him what
to do.
So it's up to him.
And, point of fact, he knows I'm not Christian, he knows other friends of
his aren't, and he doesn't disconnect.
>
>> > # This alleged "monster" that you pose yourselves against... if it's
>> > so bad (in the respect that it destroys families and friends), why do
>> > you have to tell Krystal to disconnect from me?
>>
>> To the extent that you are an arm of an organization which continues to
>> follow those practices in present time, you are part of that monster. I
>> believe you when you say you are unaware of such problems, and that you
>> won't be part of them. I commend you on that, and hope it doesn't come
>> to
>> that for you. However, policy dictates that you will eventually be
>> forced
>> to make such a choice or face being put in "lower conditions" regarding
>> your
>> third dynamic. If you are public, they will be lenient with you to an
>> extent. If you become a nuisance to them, however, you will be put in
>> Liability, minimum.
>
> I believe I phrased that question incorrectly. What I meant was, why
> do you have to do what the organization is supposedly doing or has
> done. If it ever did... I don't believe it happens all that much
> anymore (if at all). You've been out of Scientology for at least 10
> years, correct? Is it really an accurate depiction of the 2007
> religion?
Yes, it is. Many of us here get reports daily from people who JUST left or
are still nominally in.
They gave me the "we don't do that anymore" story, too, when I was in.
I get emails from people describing things they recently experienced. And
take Chuck Beatty, he's only been out about 3 years, and he can tell you
some things about the SO.
Take care,
C
Ball of Fluff
"Kevin Brady" <gomo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:45de...@news2.lightlink.com...
No, it was criminal neglect. Which is sufficiently bad.
>
>>> Valid point. I don't recommend disconnection from you. I do recommend
>>> CAUTION when a person who is not a scientologist gets involved with
>>> someone
>>> who is, because of the dangers of the organization which you either are
>>> unaware of, consider fixable, or agree with.
>>
>>>From what I can see... they are the same. Caution = Disconnection
>
> Caution is not the same thing. Caution is making sure a situation is
> safe, not running from that situation.
Right.
Right. This is a forum. It gets a mix of people. CofS told me it was a
"suppressive group" then a DSA sat right there across from me and told me
ars couldn't REALLY be considered a group since it's a loose knit band of
crazies. I guess it is whatever they say it is. Heh.
It's right in the Ethics book. If you don't report PTSness, it's a CRIME.
C
Hephaestus
wrote:
> "Kevin Brady" <gomorr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:45de...@news2.lightlink.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Stephen Von Hatten" <stephen.vonhat...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
hmm, I was hoping he'd keep posting. Maybe he's just busy.
navy.intern...@gmail.com
I got a message from Stephen. He decided to leave!
See here: http://www.freewebs.com/stephenvonhatten/
Kevin Brady
news:1172992352.5...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
That's great! I hope he starts getting a little more satisfaction out of
his life, and I'm happy he's ceased supporting the criminal cult with his
money, time and intentions. He's a young man. If he can dust himself off
from this without long-term problems, he's way ahead of most ex-scios.