LRH and Crowley
Rasmus Hayseed
Crowley mention him at any time?
/R
Rev. Norle Enturbulata
"Rasmus Hayseed" <mic...@mouse.com> wrote in message
news:ah3q2t$2t0l$1...@news.cybercity.dk...
> How much evidence is there that LRH associated with Aleister Crowley? Does
> Crowley mention him at any time?
There are folks far more familiar than I with Crowley/OTO/etc that dwell on
a.r.s... But as I understood it Hubbard never met Crowley, and wasn't
well-considered by him either. El Rum did however allow Jack Parsons to
buggar him during SexMagik experiments, and ran off with Parsons' companion
Sarah Northrup (and quite a bit of money, having told him that they were
going to Florida to buy a yacht). Some things are pretty much consistent
with Hubnose, at least when you get into the con games he tried, in the
pursuit of power, and other peoples' money
--
Rev. Norle Enturbulata
"Church" of Cartoonism
*
"Scientology...is not a psycho-therapy nor a religion."
- LRH's "Creation of Human Ability" p251
Peter Widmer
> refer to him as an idiot once.
> OTOH, LRH was very interested in taking the place of Crowley after
> Crowley croaked.
> Nibs Hubbard spoke out about the above in an interview in a
> gentleman's magazine.
> Caroline Letkeman also wrote about LRH and his fascination with the
> occult practices and symbology he used in Scientology.
>
> Go Here: http://www.entheta.ca/caroline/
>
> and grab the PDF file.
>
> Get back to me after it sinks in.
>
>
Or read:
The Babalon Working; by Michael Staley
<http://www.mysunrise.ch/users/prkoenig/staley/staley11.htm>
In the course of a letter dated October 1946, he [Crowley] said:
"About J.W.Parsons - all that I can say is that I am sorry - I feel
sure that he had fine ideas, but he was led astray firstly by Smith,
then he was robbed of his last penny by a confidence man named
Hubbard."
His last words are in the course of a letter of December 1946:
"I have no further interest in Jack and his adventures; he is just a
weak-minded fool, and must go to the devil in his own way.
Requiescat in pace."
<...>
--
Peter Widmer <pwi...@quicknet.ch>
3802 Waldegg <http://www.pewid.ch>
Rasmus Hayseed
"Penult" <pen...@riverstyx.com> wrote in message
news:ql5bjuotvhia5g6t6...@4ax.com...
--- snip ---
> Caroline Letkeman also wrote about LRH and his fascination with the
> occult practices and symbology he used in Scientology.
The CoS cross is really Crowley's cross, right?
El Queso
Crowley only refers to him in connection with Parsons, calling them both
fools.
Queso
Rasta Robert
alt.religion.scientology:
>How much evidence is there that LRH associated with Aleister Crowley?
None, because he didn't. The closest he got was assisting Jack Parsons
in some rogue magickal rituals. Parsons was a member of the OTO,
but it appears that Hubbard never even was formally an OTO member,
but was regarded by Parsons to a 'natural thelemite'.
When Crowley became aware of Parsons' and Hubbard's little project
he didn't seem too pleased with it.
>Does
>Crowley mention him at any time?
>
In his letters. If I'm not mistaken he warned JP that he
was of the opinion that Ron Hubbard was a con man, and about
the babalon working, the ritual JP and Hubbard were involved
in he said something like 'I thought I had a perverse mind,
but I can't fathom the idiocy of these louts'.
Rasta Robert
--//->
Bernie - http//welcome.to/ars
+0200 in <ah4dp0$kj8$1...@news.cybercity.dk>
>The CoS cross is really Crowley's cross, right?
I remember some Crowley specialist arguing with Perry Scott that it isn't.
Maybe you can find the thread through Google or on Perry's web site.
--
Bernie
http://welcome.to/ars
Paul Hume
> > occult practices and symbology he used in Scientology.
>
> The CoS cross is really Crowley's cross, right?
No, this is a factoid that has gained some popularity but is not
correct.
First, the cross most people seem to be thinking of when they say
"Crowley's cross" is actually the Rose-Cross design created by the
Golden Dawn. This design was developed by (presumably) MacGregor and
Moina Mathers in the early years of the GD, when Crowley was still in
his early teens - he joined the GD in 1900, when he was 25, whereas
the GD was founded around 1886-87. I am guessing that the Mathers
developed the design since it was associated with the Adeptus Minor
ritual, and Mathers produced most of that material, and because one of
the first examples of the Rose Cross was prepared by Moina, who was a
gifted graphic artist, and developed or designed many of the Order's
symbols and tools.
Now the Rose Cross is sometimes associated with Crowley because it is
on the design for the back of the cards in the Thoth Tarot, which he
designed with Frieda Harris. The design was actually developed by Lady
Frieda, though he presumably added input to the design decision.
Since the Ordo Templi Orientis publishes the deck in this country, in
an arrangement with US Games, I have also seen this cross referred to
as an OTO Cross. This is even wronger - this form of the Rose Cross is
devoted to Golden Dawn symbolism, and has no reference to OTO
symbolism.
The Rose Cross is a cross bottony (three lobes at the ends of each
limb, kind of like the clubs pattern in modern playing cards) with the
center overlaid by a multicolored rose of 22 petals, with 12 rays, or
glories, radiating from it, in 4 sets of 3 glories at each angle of
the cross. The full symbol is painted in a complex array of colors and
marked with all manner of symbols, designed to act as a mnemonic for
key formulae in the Adeptus Minor ritual and associated magical tools
and practices in the Golden Dawn.
The Scientology Cross is, I am given to understand, is a calvary cross
flory (limbs terminate in a fleur de lys) or even just a variation on
the cross that indents the end of each limb with a v-shaped notch. I
have to confess I have forgotten the heraldic name of that design. A
single small X, St. Andrew's Cross, or set of 4 small glories,
radiates from the center and this leads to the description of a
"crossed out cross." It's a fairly common design in religious
iconography, though (or heraldry for that matter, starting with the
British Union Jack).
ANYWAY: I have no idea if Hubbard's intention was to display a
crossed-out cross
as a symbol to diss Christianity or not. That's not really my
interest. However, linking that design to the Rose Cross, with or
without trying to link that to Crowley, is reaching pretty far based
on a single design motif that the two items share, sorta, if the 12
glory sunburst on the Rose Cross is really to be equated with the
central design on the Scientology Cross.
Now let's put this one to rest for awhile...I am getting tired of
typing this. I should stash it in a text file (g).
Paul
Paul Hume
> The Babalon Working; by Michael Staley
> <http://www.mysunrise.ch/users/prkoenig/staley/staley11.htm>
>
Or even try http://www.babalon.net/jwp/babalon.html and read what Jack
wrote himself regarding the Babalon Working, in his Book of Babalon.
Rasmus Hayseed
"Paul Hume" <paul...@lan2wan.com> wrote in message
news:ab28278b.02071...@posting.google.com...
> > > Caroline Letkeman also wrote about LRH and his fascination with the
> > > occult practices and symbology he used in Scientology.
> >
> > The CoS cross is really Crowley's cross, right?
>
> No, this is a factoid that has gained some popularity but is not
> correct.
Thanks for the very detailed explanation.
Rev Norle Enturbulata
> On Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:43:44 +0200, "Rasmus Hayseed"
> <mic...@mouse.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Penult" <pen...@riverstyx.com> wrote in message
> >news:ql5bjuotvhia5g6t6...@4ax.com...
> >> On Wed, 17 Jul 2002 15:07:45 +0200, "Rasmus Hayseed"
> >> <mic...@mouse.com> wrote:
> >
> >--- snip ---
> >
> >> Caroline Letkeman also wrote about LRH and his fascination with the
> >> occult practices and symbology he used in Scientology.
> >
> >The CoS cross is really Crowley's cross, right?
>
'At-sa no good! :)
--
Rev. Norle Enturbulata
Paul Hume
> Maybe you can find the thread through Google or on Perry's web site.
or even downthread (g).
Paul Hume
Louts, actually (g).
He does also refer to Hubbard as a con man, however.
Paul
Rasmus Hayseed
He got that one right, it seems!
Dave Bird
<pen...@riverstyx.com> writes:
>On Wed, 17 Jul 2002 15:07:45 +0200, "Rasmus Hayseed"
><mic...@mouse.com> wrote:
>
>refer to him as an idiot once.
Well, looking on the bright side, this does prove (1) Crowley did
know Hubbard, and (2) knew him well enough to know what he was like.
--
' ' ' .:::. ' :: ' ' 'what do Scientologists say when ' http://www.
' (o\ /o) .::. ' you ask why their money-grubbing ' xemu.demon.
' \ " / XEMU ' killed a woman by starvation? ' co.uk '
' '-' :::: ' - - - -http://www.lisatrust.net - ' ' ' ' ' ' '
' :v: \'''| ' BIGOT BIGOT BIGOT '
' ;;\:::/;;\/ / ' OO / / \ ? '
' ;;;;;;;;;BEER ' (~~) .00 @@-._ \ '
' WithAKick\/ ' ( ) ( =) (O ) ( ") (" )
' 'LikeAnHBomb ' ' ' ' ^^^^ ' ' ^^ ^^ ' ' ' ' ^^ ^^ ' ' "" ' ""
see the famous frogs at http://members.home.net/bwarr1/Movie2.html
Dave Bird
<paul...@lan2wan.com> writes:
>> > Caroline Letkeman also wrote about LRH and his fascination with the
>> > occult practices and symbology he used in Scientology.
>>
>> The CoS cross is really Crowley's cross, right?
>
>No, this is a factoid that has gained some popularity but is not
>correct.
Yes, sort of. To sum up what Paul says, the Scientology cross
is a fairly plain cross with four small diagonal "glories"
which some later users may have interpreted as a crossed-out
cross. It was used on the back of the Tarot card design
employed in Crowley's group, and Hubbard derived it from there.
Crowley acquired it from the Golden dawn movement, and they
probably got it from earlier Gnostic groups.
My own view is that the symbolism should not be given too
much weight. Hubbard, who was a magpie and copied from
all over the place, took it from the Tarot pack used by
(and designed for) Crowley because it looked a pretty design.
Crowley, who was likewise a magpie and copied all over the
place, took the design from Golden Dawn who had in turn
taken it from earlier designs, because it looked a
pretty design.
___ |\ .---. _ :::\
( o ) |'_\ \ V / | | ..:/
-- _| |_ Elron _| |_ becomes _| |_ 5th _| |_ Tellytubby | |
.`_____`. .`_____`. .`_____`. .`_____`. .` `.
|\ / \ /||\ / \ /| |\ / \ /||\ / \ /| |\ /\\/\ /|
||| @ @ |||||| 9 9 ||| ||| 6 6 |||||| o o ||| ||| x x |||
\_\ = /_/\_\ - /_/ \_\ o /_/\_\ ._. /_/ \_\ ._. /_/..
.-'-----'-. .-'-----'-. .-'-----'-. .-'-----'-. .-'-----'-.::.
(_ ___ _)(_ ___ _) (_ ___ _)(_ ___ _) (_ ___ _) |
| |T_W| | | Dipsy | | |LaLa | | |PO_| | | ElRon \rum|
| | | | | | | | | /|__|
jgs(___|___)m¢ (___|___) (___|___) (___|___) (____|____)
patrick
> On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 23:37:17 +0100, Dave Bird <da...@xemu.demon.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>>In article<ql5bjuotvhia5g6t6...@4ax.com>, Penult
>><pen...@riverstyx.com> writes:
>>>On Wed, 17 Jul 2002 15:07:45 +0200, "Rasmus Hayseed"
>>><mic...@mouse.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>How much evidence is there that LRH associated with Aleister Crowley?
>>>>Does Crowley mention him at any time?
>>>>
>>>>/R
>>>
>>>Crowley was not a friend or close associate of LRH, although he did
>>>refer to him as an idiot once.
>>
>> Well, looking on the bright side, this does prove (1) Crowley did
>> know Hubbard, and (2) knew him well enough to know what he was like.
>
> True.
> Of course, that puts you and me in the same boat with Crowley on this
> subject. hahaha
that also puts hubbard in the same game as crowley.
witchcraft
--
Love is all u need.
Paul Hume
>
> witchcraft
Magick.
Witchcraft was Gardner, and oddly enough, some later papers by Jack
Parsons, well after the encounter with LRH.
patrick
interesting. i do think it is very strange how most people
just brush off the witchcraft stuff. if they dont believe
in God then they dont believe in witchcraft either. fascinating
Paul Hume
> just brush off the witchcraft stuff. if they dont believe
> in God then they dont believe in witchcraft either. fascinating
You mean Hubbard's involvement? The problem there is he so distorts
the message that it becomes irrelevant if he actually profited at all
from his work with Parsons or his readings in magick.
I am afraid I know lots of people who profess not to believe in God,
or even in the Gods, but who think spellcrafting is possible.
I am unclear if you are using the term witchcraft in its
anthropological sense ,its sense (of which there are several (g)) in
the contemporary occult community, or the Christian theological sense,
so can't really respond usefully beyond these observations.
Starshadow
Paul Hume wrote:
Patrick Darcy is a moron, albeit a relatively harmless one
, who equates witchcraft and indeed all magick with the
xtian devil. I don't know if it's because he's a moron or
because he's a xtian or both. Just an fyi, Paul.
---
Bright Blessings,
Starshadow, KoX, SP5, Official Wiccan Chaplain ARSCC(wdne)
"Scientology in 1986, after fraud judgement in favor
of ex-member Lawrence Wollersheim --'Not one thin dime for
Wollersheim'
Scientology May 9, 2002 before final appeal--
86,746,430 Thin Dimes for Wollersheim." www.factnet.org
www.xenu.net --what the Church of Scientology doesn't want
you to see