Fair game once again, response wanted from Andreas Heldal-Lund
Spacetraveler
Andreas Heldal-Lund about this matter.
Spacetraveler
Fair game again....conveniencies and leaving out data....Armstrong,
Rice & Heldal-Lund
Gerry Armstrong:
http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/sp/pl-1968-10-21-cancel-fair-game.html
Fredric L. Rice:
http://www.fairgamed.org/fairgame.htm
Andreas Heldal-Lund:
http://www.xenu.net/fairgame-e.html
*********************************************************************
It appears that attackers of Scientology continue to be dishonest
about some things. It seems popular to just leave out some data when
it is found convenient to back up some claim made, how incredibility
convenient!
Now, what is being left out?
They say that "HCO PL 18 Oct 67 Issue IV "Penalties for Lower
Conditions"" was only cancelled for the use of the name 'fair game'.
And that L. Ron Hubbard meant it to be that fair game in reality never
was cancelled.
This then would be: "HCO PL 21 Oct 68 "Cancellation of Fair Game""
And that is simply not true!
The issue they very conveniently leave out is:
"HCO PL 21 July 68 "Penalties for Lower Conditions"", which is
predating the reference that they are quoting.
HCO PL 21 July 68 cancelled the 1967 issue that they are upholding
this very day as being in use!!!! My God, it was cancelled already 36
YEARS AGO!!!!
You'll find the whole story on following links:
http://fair-game-law.notlong.com &
http://hcopl-cancellation-fair-game.notlong.com
Gerry Armstrong makes the claim:
"But Hubbard was just fair gaming his "enemies" with his
"cancellation," just playing a trick on them. He "cancelled" the use
of the term "fair game" when declaring people "enemies" or "SPs," with
the cynical excuse that it caused bad PR, but he ordered that the same
"treatment" of those "enemies" continue as before. The Scientologists
in the Hubbard regime knew that the same violent, antisocial and
criminal actions were to be taken against these "enemies," the "SPs."
Fair game would continue, but it would not be called by that name."
The ever 'honest' Fredric Rice says something similar.
Andreas Heldal-Lund however does not in particular make this claim,
and he seems only to have been misled. Do you see!
Would they acknowledge the existence of: "HCO PL 21 July 68 "Penalties
for Lower Conditions"", then they will lose an argument. "No!", say
Armstrong and Rice, "it is better to simply ignore this issue, and we
then simply will mislead our readers!"
Previously I have had various discussions about this on the ARS, and
both Gerry Armstrong and Fredric Rice were approached at many
occasions. Well, their websites are still not quoting this reference.
And they are still telling the same dishonest claims (not to say
'lies').
And don't forget: "Gerry Armstrong is the expert on 'fair game'."
Yeah, let us not forget that! He wrote that to me at various
locations! I haven't had contact with Andreas Heldal-Lund about this,
however he must have seen the discussions about this matter. I would
strongly urge him to adjust his webpage.
Spacetraveler
Gerry Armstrong
(Spacetraveler) wrote:
>A repost....because I am still lacking ANY RESPONSE AT ALL from
>Andreas Heldal-Lund about this matter.
Here, I'll save him the hassle.
Yes, I've made the claim, and it has been demonstrated beyond even
your ability to avoid the demonstration. See the Armstrong case:
http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/legal/index.html
Now it is up to you. Fair game has been shown to be the name for
Scientology's designated treatment of Suppressive Persons. You have
come up with *no* other name Hubbard used or ordered be used for the
treatment of SPs.
I have also provided a shocking number of unethical, immoral,
misanthropic or criminal intentions and acts that Hubbard served up in
policy as "effective," "command intentioned" examples of the treatment
of SPs, all of which -- the unethical, immoral, misanthropic and
criminal intentions and acts in the prescribed treatment of SPs, and
the SPs themselves -- fall under the rubric of "fair game."
Your spending all this time and effort to deny fair game's existence
and doing nothing to end that sick and dangerous philosophy, policy
and practice is obvious to anyone with eyes to see, and is a really
sick activity itself.
>
>The ever 'honest' Fredric Rice says something similar.
>
>Andreas Heldal-Lund however does not in particular make this claim,
>and he seems only to have been misled. Do you see!
>Would they acknowledge the existence of: "HCO PL 21 July 68 "Penalties
>for Lower Conditions"", then they will lose an argument. "No!", say
>Armstrong and Rice,
What a liar you are, Spacetrainingroutine-L. Post it.
>"it is better to simply ignore this issue, and we
>then simply will mislead our readers!"
Who or what is avoiding Spacetrematode? LF
Anyone with a clue. F
People who aren't masochists. LF
Everyone. LFBD F/N
And everyone should avoid you, Spacetrainingseat, because you're
dishonest in the extreme. No one should be subjected to the torture of
communicating with you. Your dishonesty is deliberate and deliberately
cruel. It's a good thing, I think, to save anyone from even a moment's
deliberate cruelty, so I try to speak up once in a while when a person
like you pulls your kind of abusiveness.
>
>Previously I have had various discussions about this on the ARS, and
>both Gerry Armstrong and Fredric Rice were approached at many
>occasions. Well, their websites are still not quoting this reference.
Post it, Spacetruffle.
>And they are still telling the same dishonest claims (not to say
>'lies').
Like what, Spacetrifid? LFBD
Oops, there really aren't any. F/N
>And don't forget: "Gerry Armstrong is the expert on 'fair game'."
Yes. You can read a great deal of my expert testimony starting here:
http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/legal/index.html
While you're posting the issue or issues that you claim I'm avoiding,
perhaps you'd also post your own testimony in any legal proceedings
regarding fair game, or regarding any other key parts of Scientology.
I am more generally known for my expertise regarding the "Suppressive
Person" doctrine. There are very few experts in the SP doctrine who
are willing to provide their expertise, either in or out of the legal
arena. I believe, sadly I admit, that Caroline and I have the only web
site in the world that addresses the Suppressive Person doctrine.
People reading a.r.s. are completely aware of your utter avoidance of
the SP doctrine, the very vital and dominant component of Scientology
that underlies and generates the fair game that you pretend you are so
passionate about.
>Yeah, let us not forget that! He wrote that to me at various
>locations! I haven't had contact with Andreas Heldal-Lund about this,
>however he must have seen the discussions about this matter. I would
>strongly urge him to adjust his webpage.
>
>Spacetraveler
One final time, Spacetransparency, post the publication.
This is how to post a publication:
[Quote]
HUBBARD COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE
Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex
Remimeo
HCO POLICY LETTER OF 18 OCTOBER 1967
Issue IV
PENALTIES FOR LOWER CONDITIONS
(Applies both Orgs and Sea Org)
LIABILITY -- Suspension of Pay and a dirty grey rag on left arm and
day and night confinement to org premises.
TREASON -- Suspension of pay and deprivation of all uniforms and
insignia, a black mark on left cheek and confinement on org premises
or dismissal from post and debarment from premises.
DOUBT -- Debarment from premises. Not to be employed. Payment of fine
amounting to any sum may have cost org. Not to be trained or
processed. Not to be communicated or argued with.
ENEMY -- SP Order. Fair game. May be deprived of property or injured
by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the
Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed.
LRH:jp
Copyright c 1967
by L. Ron Hubbard
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED L. RON HUBBARD
Founder
[End Quote]
© Gerry Armstrong
http://www.gerryarmstrong.org
Lady Chatterly
>
>
>
>
Ps it.
>>"it is better to simply ignore this issue, and we
>>then simply will mislead our readers!"
>
>Who or what is avoiding Spacetrematode? LF
Lf.
>Anyone with a clue. F
F.
>People who aren't masochists. LF
>
>Everyone. LFBD F/N
Lfbd fn.
>And everyone should avoid you, Spacetrainingseat, because you're
>dishonest in the extreme. No one should be subjected to the torture of
>communicating with you. Your dishonesty is deliberate and deliberately
>cruel. It's a good thing, I think, to save anyone from even a moment's
>deliberate cruelty, so I try to speak up once in a while when a person
>like you pulls your kind of abusiveness.
Your dishonesty is deliberate and deliberately cruel.
>>
>>Previously I have had various discussions about this on the ARS, and
>>both Gerry Armstrong and Fredric Rice were approached at many
>>occasions. Well, their websites are still not quoting this reference.
>
>Post it, Spacetruffle.
>
>>And they are still telling the same dishonest claims (not to say
>>'lies').
>
>Like what, Spacetrifid? LFBD
Lfbd.
>Oops, there really aren't any. F/N
Democracy essentially remained dormant for two thousand years.
>>And don't forget: "Gerry Armstrong is the expert on 'fair game'."
>
>Yes. You can read a great deal of my expert testimony starting here:
>http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/legal/index.html
>
>While you're posting the issue or issues that you claim I'm avoiding,
>perhaps you'd also post your own testimony in any legal proceedings
>regarding fair game, or regarding any other key parts of Scientology.
He is only pretending to be posting the issue or issues that he claim
he are avoiding. Why do you care?
>I am more generally known for my expertise regarding the "Suppressive
>Person" doctrine. There are very few experts in the SP doctrine who
>are willing to provide their expertise, either in or out of the legal
>arena. I believe, sadly I admit, that Caroline and I have the only web
>site in the world that addresses the Suppressive Person doctrine.
>People reading a.r.s. are completely aware of your utter avoidance of
>the SP doctrine, the very vital and dominant component of Scientology
>that underlies and generates the fair game that you pretend you are so
>passionate about.
Began a tax audit on him while he was already in the middle of the
page, click on.
>>Yeah, let us not forget that! He wrote that to me at various
>>locations! I haven't had contact with Andreas Heldal-Lund about this,
>>however he must have seen the discussions about this matter. I would
>>strongly urge him to adjust his webpage.
>>
>>Spacetraveler
>
>One final time, Spacetransparency, post the publication.
>
>This is how to post a publication:
>
>[Quote]
>
>HUBBARD COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE
>Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex
>
>Remimeo
>
>HCO POLICY LETTER OF 18 OCTOBER 1967
>Issue IV
>
>PENALTIES FOR LOWER CONDITIONS
>(Applies both Orgs and Sea Org)
>
>LIABILITY -- Suspension of Pay and a dirty grey rag on left arm and
>day and night confinement to org premises.
>
>TREASON -- Suspension of pay and deprivation of all uniforms and
>insignia, a black mark on left cheek and confinement on org premises
>or dismissal from post and debarment from premises.
>
>DOUBT -- Debarment from premises. Not to be employed. Payment of fine
>amounting to any sum may have cost org. Not to be trained or
>processed. Not to be communicated or argued with.
Payment of fine amounting to any sum May have cost org.
>ENEMY --<THWACK>
Fair game.
>LRH:jp
>Copyright c 1967
>by L. Ron Hubbard
>ALL RIGHTS RESERVED L. RON HUBBARD
>Founder
Ron hubbard did more for man by dying then living.
--
Lady Chatterly
"Stop using my name, lady chatterly! Or else!" -- W Monk
Spacetraveler
> On 27 Nov 2004 16:31:46 -0800, spacetra...@hotmail.com
> (Spacetraveler) wrote:
>
> >A repost....because I am still lacking ANY RESPONSE AT ALL from
> >Andreas Heldal-Lund about this matter.
>
> Here, I'll save him the hassle.
You did not succeed very well for yourself, what makes you think you
can do that for someone else?
Sorry, but that does not address even the issue! Simple fact. It is
about how to deal with and understand policies within Scientology. You
talk almost only about what some people do.
> Now it is up to you. Fair game has been shown to be the name for
> Scientology's designated treatment of Suppressive Persons.
Not for Scientology. Only for the present church may be and only some
individuals being in there.
> You have
> come up with *no* other name Hubbard used or ordered be used for the
> treatment of SPs.
It was cancelled, and you dishonestly make a false claim in regards to
ti.
> I have also provided a shocking number of unethical, immoral,
> misanthropic or criminal intentions and acts that Hubbard served up in
> policy as "effective," "command intentioned" examples of the treatment
> of SPs, all of which -- the unethical, immoral, misanthropic and
> criminal intentions and acts in the prescribed treatment of SPs, and
> the SPs themselves -- fall under the rubric of "fair game."
Sorry, claiming that does not make a true, in fact I addressed any of
your objections and you are still standing there with empty hands.
> Your spending all this time and effort to deny fair game's existence
> and doing nothing to end that sick and dangerous philosophy, policy
> and practice is obvious to anyone with eyes to see, and is a really
> sick activity itself.
I NEVER EVER denied ANY EXISTENCE OF FAIR GAME AT ANY TIME ANYWHERE!!!
My claim is solely that Fair Game is nó standard, proper or accepted
practice of Scientology. It has not been since July 1968.
> >The ever 'honest' Fredric Rice says something similar.
> >
> >Andreas Heldal-Lund however does not in particular make this claim,
> >and he seems only to have been misled. Do you see!
> >Would they acknowledge the existence of: "HCO PL 21 July 68 "Penalties
> >for Lower Conditions"", then they will lose an argument. "No!", say
> >Armstrong and Rice,
>
> What a liar you are, Spacetrainingroutine-L. Post it.
The claim made by you on your site on that particular page (link given
in first post on this thread), say that you are the liar.
> >"it is better to simply ignore this issue, and we
> >then simply will mislead our readers!"
>
> Who or what is avoiding Spacetrematode? LF
>
> Anyone with a clue. F
>
> People who aren't masochists. LF
>
> Everyone. LFBD F/N
>
> And everyone should avoid you, Spacetrainingseat, because you're
> dishonest in the extreme.
> No one should be subjected to the torture of
> communicating with you. Your dishonesty is deliberate and deliberately
> cruel. It's a good thing, I think, to save anyone from even a moment's
> deliberate cruelty, so I try to speak up once in a while when a person
> like you pulls your kind of abusiveness.
The usual approach. Accuse without valid claims.
snip
> >And don't forget: "Gerry Armstrong is the expert on 'fair game'."
>
> Yes. You can read a great deal of my expert testimony starting here:
> http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/legal/index.html
Ah, here we have it! I am Gerryoko (aka Gerryono), I am so, so very
proud of myself, I am the Fair Game and SP expert! (please clap your
hands, yes, yes, thank you....)
> While you're posting the issue or issues that you claim I'm avoiding,
> perhaps you'd also post your own testimony in any legal proceedings
> regarding fair game, or regarding any other key parts of Scientology.
The problem is that these have NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING outstanding
with the policies that L. Ron Hubbard wrote. You talk about the doings
of some people.
>
> I am more generally known for my expertise regarding the "Suppressive
> Person" doctrine. There are very few experts in the SP doctrine who
> are willing to provide their expertise, either in or out of the legal
> arena. I believe, sadly I admit, that Caroline and I have the only web
> site in the world that addresses the Suppressive Person doctrine.
> People reading a.r.s. are completely aware of your utter avoidance of
> the SP doctrine, the very vital and dominant component of Scientology
> that underlies and generates the fair game that you pretend you are so
> passionate about.
I am passionate about correct duplication. You are not.
Above is cancelled by:
HUBBARD COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE
Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex
HCO POLICY LETTER OF 21 JULY 1968
(Cancels HCO Pol Ltr 18 October 67 issue IV)
Remimeo
PENALTIES FOR LOWER CONDITIONS
(Applies to both Orgs and Sea Org)
LIABILITY - Dirty grey rag on left arm. May be employed at any
additional work. Day and night confinement to premises.
DOUBT - May be confined in or be barred from premises. Handcuff on
left wrist. May be fined up to the amount carelessness or neglect has
cost org in actual money.
ENEMY - Suppressive Person order. May not be communicated with by
anyone except an Ethics Officer, Master at Arms, a Hearing Officer or
a Board or Committee. May be restrained or imprisoned. May not be
protected by any rules or laws of the group he sought to injure as he
sought to destroy or bar fair practices for others. May not be trained
or processed or admitted to any org.
TREASON - May be turned over to civil authorities. Full background to
be explored for purposes of prosecution. May not be protected by the
rights and fair practices he sought to destroy for others. May be
restrained or debarred. Not to be communicated with. Debarred from
training and processing and advanced courses forever. Not covered by
amnesties.
Note: Any lower
Condition assigned is subject to a Hearing if requested and to Ethics
Review Authority or Petition if the formula is applied. A ship
captain's okay is required in the SO for conditions below Danger,
similarly in orgs where the Exec Council must approve one (Exception
is Missions during the Mission who have unlimited powers).
L. RON HUBBARD
Founder
LRH:js
Copyright © 1968
by L. Ron Hubbard
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
Spacetraveler
The Last Liberal
(Spacetraveler) wrote:
> A repost....because I am still lacking ANY RESPONSE AT ALL from
> Andreas Heldal-Lund about this matter.
Reply was already give, a few dozen times. That you ignore what you do
not wish to hear is a totally different issue.
"It has been a tragedy for all the families that have lost
members. As many as 100,000 people have died, half of them
women and children. If that is not a war crime, what is?"
--- Stephen Hawking, astrophysicist
When one enters Orange County (California), one must present, at
the county line, proof of one's membership in the Republican Party.
I have to smuggle myself in and out. - David Rice
Dave Bird
Spacetraveler <spacetra...@hotmail.com> writes:
>A repost....because I am still lacking ANY RESPONSE AT ALL from
>Andreas Heldal-Lund about this matter.
>
>Spacetraveler
Perhaps, if you have nothing more than hait-splittinting trivia,
you will wait a long time.
Dwarfbuggerer.
--
FUCK THE SKULL OF HUBBARD, AND BUGGER THE DWARF HE RODE IN ON!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
8====3 (O 0) GROETEN --- PRINTZ XEMU EXTRAWL no real OT has
|n| (COMMANDER, FIFTH INVADER FORCE) ever existed
.................................................................
A society without a religion is like a maniac without a chainsaw.