Ken Ogger Post Mortem - Need Help
Heidrun Beer
The coroner's report is finally complete.
Left wrist tied with wire - no comparable wire found
on the property...!
I am pretty helpless with the handwriting. If anybody has
the time to compare the handwritten notes to the typewritten
text in the end, and lets me know whether there is anything
in the handwritten that is not in the typewritten, I would
be very grateful:
http://www.sgmt.at/PILOT/Ogger%20Coroner%20Report.pdf
Heidrun Beer
Workgroup for Fundamental Spiritual Research and Mental Training
barb
"He has never sought psychological treatment, nor did he take any
psychiatric medications."
I think we can put this down as yet another Scientology success story...
Along with Perkins et. al.
--
--
Barb
Chaplain, ARSCC
http://members.cox.net/bwarr1/index.htm
"Comparing Scientology to a motorcycle gang is a gross, unpardonable
insult to bikers everywhere. Even at our worst, we are never as bad as
Scientology."
-ex-member, Thunderclouds motorcycle "club"
R. Hill
I think the hypothesis of suicide is a good one here, a lot of details
point to that in my opinion. The fact that the detective didn't find the
red wire on the property doesn't mean suicide has to be ruled out. I did
notice the passage where it is described that the ankles were wrapped
and *knotted*, whereas is left wrist was wrapped, but *not knotted*.
Suicide is a reasonable explanation when considering everything else at
this point.
Ray.
--
"I started thinking, and I got carried away"
- Dan Garvin, former scientologist
"We simply do as [L. Ron Hubbard] says"
- Dennis Clarke, scientologist
Kevin Brady
been absent for a while from the boards. Ken was a personal hero of mine,
and had a tremendous influence on my life: he gave me hope when I had lost
it, gave me advice when I trusted no one, and led me out of a darkness that
would surely have killed me if left surely to my own determinism. I am so
shocked and sorry to hear of this loss. I've read the coroner's report
twice, now. I know he was despondent for a while after the loss of his
marriage, I know he had entertained suicidal ideas (which of us hasn't at
some point! and the internet makes it very easy to leave a footprint when
you're feeling down that could later be used against you, particularly when
you are as prolific a writer as Ken was).
My immediate reaction is that it was not, in fact, a suicide. That is a
result of personal bias, however, and not at all based in the facts, which
make it clear that it could well have been so. Of course, Ken was long
warned that what he was doing could get him killed, and he became
particularly vulnerable when he expressed his depression: it became to easy
to make it look like a suicide and have that wash with people. I don't know
how it went down, but I would want a VERY, VERY thorough investigation, no
matter how clear (tm) it seems that it was a suicide, because he was a
PRIMARY leader in the FreeZone/Independent movement for a while: not in
terms of organization, but as a philosophical opinion leader. Many of us (I
say us, because I am still very much a believer in the value of the Freezone
Scientology movement, even if I'm no longer considering myself a "member")
were encouraging him to open his own organizations. I offered to work for
him in any capacity, at one point, particularly as a body-guard, because I
considered it very likely someone would attack him as soon as his identity
became known.
I am very sorry to lose Ken, I was really hoping to see more major works
from him in the future.
Ach...
Do I have an ARCx?
LFBD, no need to ask where: R.
"Heidrun Beer" <hB...@sgmt.at> wrote in message
news:fspp931qm4k30f2f9...@4ax.com...
Kevin Brady
"barb" <xenu...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:de6ni.77061$tL1....@newsfe22.lga...
> Heidrun Beer wrote:
>>
>> The coroner's report is finally complete. Left wrist tied with wire - no
>> comparable wire found
>> on the property...!
>>
>> I am pretty helpless with the handwriting. If anybody has
>> the time to compare the handwritten notes to the typewritten
>> text in the end, and lets me know whether there is anything
>> in the handwritten that is not in the typewritten, I would
>> be very grateful:
>>
>>
>> http://www.sgmt.at/PILOT/Ogger%20Coroner%20Report.pdf
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Heidrun Beer
>>
>> Workgroup for Fundamental Spiritual Research and Mental Training
>>
>> http://www.sgmt.at
>>
>> http://www.RecastReality.org
>
> "He has never sought psychological treatment, nor did he take any
> psychiatric medications."
>
> I think we can put this down as yet another Scientology success story...
> Along with Perkins et. al.
>
> --
> --
> Barb
> Chaplain, ARSCC
> http://members.cox.net/bwarr1/index.htm
Wow, Barb, that is a fucking awful thing to say. Ken was one of the good
ones, and should be respected for his independent spirit and intellect... I
don't think his death was related to scientology, if it was self-inflicted,
other than the loss of his marriage was caused by Church policies - which
was what broke his spirit, imo. Very hard to survive such heavy duty
personal betrayal, but it seemed he had, for many years. While suicide does
seem a possibility, and was the determination, this is a case where I would
want to see some CSI shit in action before I'd be convinced that it actually
WAS suicide.
barb
You don't think that Scientology indoctrination against the mental
health professionals had anything to do with it, huh?
--
--
Barb
Chaplain, ARSCC
http://members.cox.net/bwarr1/index.htm
"Comparing Scientology to a motorcycle gang is a gross, unpardonable
Kevin Brady
No, not directly. And there are plenty of people who get help from
professionals, who are depressed, who kill themselves despite the help. I
think the killer was the cruelty of the divorce.
Heidrun Beer
>Oh, Heidrun, this is absolutely terrible. I was not aware of this, having
>been absent for a while from the boards. Ken was a personal hero of mine,
>and had a tremendous influence on my life: he gave me hope when I had lost
>it, gave me advice when I trusted no one, and led me out of a darkness that
>would surely have killed me if left surely to my own determinism.
Hi Kevin,
that must have been a bad shock for you. It was all over the
newsgroup when it happened - now already more than a month ago.
You may want to have a look at this page:
It has a few relevant articles, among them my article about
my visit with Ken in 2000.
Heidrun Beer
>You don't think that Scientology indoctrination against the mental
>health professionals had anything to do with it, huh?
Oh Barb,
how could the mental health professionals, who believe that
the personality is a function of the brain, possibly help a person
with such profound spiritual awareness?
Wouldn't they add to his pain when he starts to talk about
past lives or out of body experiences and stuff like that?
I just had a discussion about this on a mailing list, where
a mental health professional told me that spiritually aware
practitioners are becoming a greater percentage, but I think
you would have to be VERY lucky to find one of them, because
the percentage is still tiny.
Kevin Brady
> On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:38:02 -0700, barb <xenu...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>>You don't think that Scientology indoctrination against the mental
>>health professionals had anything to do with it, huh?
>
>
> Oh Barb,
>
>
> how could the mental health professionals, who believe that
> the personality is a function of the brain, possibly help a person
> with such profound spiritual awareness?
>
> Wouldn't they add to his pain when he starts to talk about
> past lives or out of body experiences and stuff like that?
>
> I just had a discussion about this on a mailing list, where
> a mental health professional told me that spiritually aware
> practitioners are becoming a greater percentage, but I think
> you would have to be VERY lucky to find one of them, because
> the percentage is still tiny.
Well, I think you're right, Heidrun, and not for the first time.
I think your friend was right, too, I think the percentage of people willing
to grant beingness, rather than asserting an authoritarian point of view is
growing, and I think this is a natural curve. After all, people who cannot
grant beingness cannot possibly get case gain with their clientele, no
matter what technique they are using (with the exception of some drug
therapies, which I think are therapist independant: although I think
treatment with some restricted substances would be much better: vis a vis,
MDMA, and Ibogaine), without the intercession of random chance.
I have seen, in California, dozens of colleges (accredited colleges)
offering degrees in Transpersonal Psychology and other forms of psychology
which acknowledge the possibility of past life memory (Depth Psychology,
etc.) I definitely agree that finding such a therapist is a needle in the
haystack search, but I think that is changing. At least in my area. :)
barb
> On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:38:02 -0700, barb <xenu...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>> You don't think that Scientology indoctrination against the mental
>> health professionals had anything to do with it, huh?
>
>
> Oh Barb,
>
>
> how could the mental health professionals, who believe that
> the personality is a function of the brain, possibly help a person
> with such profound spiritual awareness?
You know, people with severe head trauma sometimes become an entirely
different person. Personality is indeed a function of the brain.
However, so are suicidal tendencies, when somebody cannot see past their
immediate pain and look beyond it. However, in Mr. Ogger's case, it was
probably no big deal to drop his body, as I'm sure he "knew" he'd just
get another one, like when you eat both Twinkies in a package and just
grab another pack out of the cupboard.
Fortunately, if he was wrong about it, he won't be around to feel dismay
or shock, so that's kind of a booby prize.
>
> Wouldn't they add to his pain when he starts to talk about
> past lives or out of body experiences and stuff like that?
>
> I just had a discussion about this on a mailing list, where
> a mental health professional told me that spiritually aware
> practitioners are becoming a greater percentage, but I think
> you would have to be VERY lucky to find one of them, because
> the percentage is still tiny.
>
>
>
>
>
> Heidrun Beer
>
> Workgroup for Fundamental Spiritual Research and Mental Training
>
> http://www.sgmt.at
>
> http://www.RecastReality.org
antisectes
I must admit that Ken has indeed committed suicide: another indirect
scientology failure, since The Pilot was most evidently applying
scientology to others and to himself, that he was very ill for the
second time, at 58, of cancer. My ex-wife died also from cancer
indirectly linked to scientology and another "cultic group" recommending
no-medicine and ridicule methods to cure cancer (the group is a
multi-methods thing composed of pseudo-psychotherapy, aberrant
bio-psycho-genealogy, kinesiology, hamerology etc.).
My wife had been an OT, then a member of a relatively inoffensive group
called eckankar (created by an ex-scientologist), then a member at the
smae time of this pseudo-therapy group when she got cancer.
--
Roger Gonnet
Opposant à la scientologie depuis 24 ans
Opposing scientology crime cult since 24 Years
http://scientologie.fraude.free.fr
http://narconon.critique.free.fr
www.moreaboutscientologycult.eu
T: (33) [0]4 26 81 00 96
antisectes
It seems relatively evident that it was a suicide, and that the suicide
is neatly and indeed linked to some facts in Ken life: he divorced, he
was ruined, he was cancerous, and he committed suicide. This is not at
all dissimilar to what happens to scientologists.
r
antisectes
> On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:38:02 -0700, barb <xenu...@netscape.net>
> wrote:
>
>> You don't think that Scientology indoctrination against the mental
>> health professionals had anything to do with it, huh?
>
>
> Oh Barb,
>
>
> how could the mental health professionals, who believe that
> the personality is a function of the brain, possibly help a person
> with such profound spiritual awareness?
It's partly a function of the brain. And no matter if past lives or
whatever could be linked too, once you are in bad health like a cancer,
you can't have a chance to cure it with dianetics and scientology. I'd
bet it never happened.
r
antisectes
> Heidrun Beer wrote:
>>
>> The coroner's report is finally complete.
>>
>> Left wrist tied with wire - no comparable wire found
>> on the property...!
>>
>> I am pretty helpless with the handwriting. If anybody has
>> the time to compare the handwritten notes to the typewritten
>> text in the end, and lets me know whether there is anything
>> in the handwritten that is not in the typewritten, I would
>> be very grateful:
>>
>> http://www.sgmt.at/PILOT/Ogger%20Coroner%20Report.pdf
>>
>> Heidrun Beer
>>
>> Workgroup for Fundamental Spiritual Research and Mental Training
>>
>> http://www.sgmt.at
>>
>> http://www.RecastReality.org
>
> I think the hypothesis of suicide is a good one here, a lot of details
> point to that in my opinion. The fact that the detective didn't find
> the red wire on the property doesn't mean suicide has to be ruled
> out. I did notice the passage where it is described that the ankles
> were wrapped and *knotted*, whereas is left wrist was wrapped, but
> *not knotted*. Suicide is a reasonable explanation when considering
> everything else at this point.
shared.
Suicide because his life had become a mess, first because of
scientology, then because he left it and scientology hates people who
apply its scam outside, and thir because scientology systems did not
cure his marriage and illness. His brave character and nicety and
intelligence were not weighing enough against the cult's brainwashing.
r
Heidrun Beer
>I must admit that Ken has indeed committed suicide: another indirect
>scientology failure, since The Pilot was most evidently applying
>scientology to others and to himself, that he was very ill for the
>second time, at 58, of cancer.
As far as I know, he never had cancer.
How did you get this idea?
henri
>The coroner's report is finally complete.
>Left wrist tied with wire - no comparable wire found
>on the property...!
>I am pretty helpless with the handwriting. If anybody has
>the time to compare the handwritten notes to the typewritten
>text in the end, and lets me know whether there is anything
>in the handwritten that is not in the typewritten, I would
>be very grateful:
>http://www.sgmt.at/PILOT/Ogger%20Coroner%20Report.pdf
I just want to confirm that I received this yesterday by postal mail as well,
and on casual examination, my copy is identical. I would have scanned it,
but my scanner is refusing to work, and it appears this is exactly what I
got anyway.
Not that anyone was doubting its authenticity.
henri
>http://www.sgmt.at/PILOT/Ogger%20Coroner%20Report.pdf
If you read the narrative, it mentions an episode of the Sopranos that was
on shortly before Ken's death, where Tony Soprano's son attempts suicide.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Hdq_EfSfhrg
That's the scene in question.
Ed
Kevin, Ray Hill, Roger, you all seem to be overlooking and maybe
didn't read Ken's series of posts in May. It seems obvious to me that
he was not depressed or wanting to die. He had cleaned himself up and
had a girlfriend, which was something totally wonderful in his
progress from the depths a few years earlier. His joy and eagerness to
continue was obvious. He wouldn't have killed himself for no other
reason than he would not have wanted to hurt his beloved.
He left no suicide note and his mother said there was no indication of
him being depressed or suicidal. Same with the girlfriend.
He posted and said that he was very concerned about Scientology
killing him. It seems reasonable to me that they certainly would have
wanted him to die.
If he was murdered, it would have been easy for those who did it to
disable his phone (which he had mentioned was not working), to enter
the house, grab him and administer chloral hydrate or some such over
his nose till he was unconscious, then tie the weight on his legs and
throw him in the pool. I think any serious hitman would have been able
to do this without leaving traces.
Also there seems to be a pretty good chance that the LA coroner's
office could have been compromised in some way. Did they actually do
an autopsy and see if there were drugs present?
Ed
Heidrun Beer
>Also there seems to be a pretty good chance that the LA coroner's
>office could have been compromised in some way. Did they actually do
>an autopsy and see if there were drugs present?
Yes, but they tested only for ordinary drugs that a person
would take. Not for any poisons, as far as I could see.
The coroner's report is here:
http://www.sgmt.at/PILOT/Ogger%20Coroner%20Report.pdf
The body was cremated, I don't know whether the samples
they took would still be good for more tests.
Kevin Brady
"Ed" <met...@pronetisp.net> wrote in message
news:469E0902...@pronetisp.net...
That's scary. No, I didn't see his May series, was out of the loop. I'd
like to!
>
> He left no suicide note and his mother said there was no indication of
> him being depressed or suicidal. Same with the girlfriend.
>
> He posted and said that he was very concerned about Scientology
> killing him. It seems reasonable to me that they certainly would have
> wanted him to die.
Especially if he was making the comeback. Fine to have him down and out,
but active again? Inspiring people? Bad news for the Church.
>
> If he was murdered, it would have been easy for those who did it to
> disable his phone (which he had mentioned was not working), to enter
> the house, grab him and administer chloral hydrate or some such over
> his nose till he was unconscious, then tie the weight on his legs and
> throw him in the pool. I think any serious hitman would have been able
> to do this without leaving traces.
>
> Also there seems to be a pretty good chance that the LA coroner's
> office could have been compromised in some way. Did they actually do
> an autopsy and see if there were drugs present?
>
> Ed
All frightening thoughts. All quite possible. I continue to stand in doubt
that he suicided. I don't accept it strictly on it's face, and it's good to
hear your views, and the "data" that he wasn't depressed recently.
Ed
of which some were just a.c.t. and some here and a.c.t. I think
Heidrun has these posts on her site and she posted a link in one of
her previous posts. Also, what's the chance that someone's phone
happens to not be working on a given day? Pretty small. We don't know
whether it was something like dead battery in the phone, or whether
the actual phone line was tampered with.
Ed
Patty Pieniadz
> Hi Kevin -- Top posting: Ken posted I think seven posts on May 20th,
> of which some were just a.c.t. and some here and a.c.t. I think
> Heidrun has these posts on her site and she posted a link in one of
> her previous posts. Also, what's the chance that someone's phone
> happens to not be working on a given day? Pretty small. We don't know
> whether it was something like dead battery in the phone, or whether
> the actual phone line was tampered with.
>
> Ed
I've never met Ken Ogger but I did read some of his work.
I think the man had great courage to post what he did as
The Pilot. He seemed like a really nice and caring man
and I found some of his stuff to be very helpful early
on in my unindoctrination process.
I tend to believe this is a suicide.
After he was outed to the C of S by his own wife, he
seemed to have a really rough go of it. This is per
his own writings. He definitely had some issues
on the "2D" and apparently was doing some
Solo Auditing and I have no idea who was C/Sing
him or if he was C/Sing himself, but what ever the
case the guy seemed to be getting worse and worse.
He writes about being anally raped and spiritually fucked
with by beautiful, osa controlled girls.
I'd don't know about you, but I think Ken just went
kind of Type III, bug fuck, or plain old insane and
committed suicide. These things happen.
I don't think he was a target of Scn. I think that
he said those things as part of his nuttiness.
Why would Scn target him? He's been pretty much
out of the picture and in the big scheme of things
he would have been nothing more than a pimple on
the cult's ass. The cult has way bigger fish to fry.
I'm sure the cult is pleased as punch that Ken
is dead but I don't think they would kill him.
He was really not that important in the overall
enthetapalooza that's going on right now.
He killed himself. I doubt he hung out with
anyone that knows the signs of depression
and could help him out.
More likely he associated with people who
believe he was anally raped and spiritually
attacked by OSA bimbettes and thought
he was just "keyed in"
I've never read his Solo Auditing stuff but
I'll tell you right now, I'm gonna tell people
to stay away from it.
Patty P
Out_Of_The_Dark
Heidrun, The handwriting reminds me of my fathers; everything
handwritten within the document iseems to be discussed within the
typed information. If Mrs Kelly states that the information in the
report matches her comments and observations, then we need to let it
go and accept that Ken committed suicide. He was obviously disturbed
by the idea of the scientologists coming after him and frankly, that
is understandable. Perhaps he received emails that were not known of
to warrent the comment to his mother about the cult but the evidence
itself, if agreed with the mother, matches the conclusion. The
creation of the will and the note to his mother on the 26th itself is
sufficient. The only thing that would warrent further investigation,
and to me this is near impossible, is if one had evidence that the
mother was involved in his death. The fact that she did not go to a
neighbor and call the police, leaving him in the pool for over 1 hr
after locating him is odd but a shocked person might do that after
recognizing he was already dead. If that is the case, it must have
been on very difficult hour for her until his girlfriend arrived.
He should have sought mental health help. Barbz is correct. This
looks like another death related to scientology anti-psych propaganda.
It could have been averted. May he rest in peace.
Mary McConnell
Ed
With all due respect to one of my favorite a.r.s. voices, did
you read what he wrote in May?
I would also stay away from his solo practices. He bought into the
idea of LRH that we are all endlessly the effect of endless past
universes and their hypnotic commands and the only way out is through
endless solo auditing of this stuff. This supposed distant past track
is so unreal that there is never any way to know whether it is real or
something you imagine, as in false memory syndrome.
But Ken seemed to have gotten through and past that. His philosophy,
written in one of the May 20th posts, is very sane. He had finally
experienced loving and being loved and much healing of the previous
horrible experience you mentioned above.
If he had died this way a year or two ago before the good changes in
his life and outlook happened, I would have suspected suicide.
The only way it could be suicide this time is if there were some way
that operatives of the C of $ could project evil intention
telepathically at him with sufficient power, and with him believing he
could be victimized by such projected evil intention. I wouldn't rule
that out as a theoretical possibility, but that's the only way. He was
finally happy and had no reason to kill himself and thereby inflict
terrible pain on his girlfriend and his mother.
Ed
Ed
So obviously he was afraid that Scn were going to send thugs
after him, and he saw that he needed to make a will, but that
indicates fear of being killed, not intent to kill himself. Where's a
suicide note or explanation to his mother or girlfriend of why he
would kill himself when he was happy and in love? Maybe you also
didn't read his May 20th posts?
Ed
Ed
henri
> So obviously he was afraid that Scn were going to send thugs
>after him, and he saw that he needed to make a will, but that
>indicates fear of being killed, not intent to kill himself. Where's a
>suicide note or explanation to his mother or girlfriend of why he
>would kill himself when he was happy and in love? Maybe you also
>didn't read his May 20th posts?
Here's one of those May 20 posts. Frankly, it is delusional at best.
It is about Scientologists psychically programming him to commit
suicide using Stacey Moxon.
The post shows delusional thinking and preoccupation with suicide.
Particularly this paragraph:
---
So they assigned some girls (18 to 21 years old) at the secret base
to "squirrel hunting". There were regular sessions using different
girls in rotation. A pair of OSA agents would give the girl somthing
to drink containing Rohypnol and then put her into a hypnotic trance.
They would show her a picture of me and of my house and tell her to
exteriorize from her body and float across town and find me, The Pilot.
They would tell her to blanket my body. Then they would sexually
stimulate her and tell her to lock onto me with sexual energy.
Then they would tell her that I was an enemy of Scientology and must
be made to die. While masturbating her, they would tell her
"Permeate him and make him think 'Kill Yourself', 'Kill Yourself'".
---
People who are citing Ken's May 20th posts as evidence of sanity must
have read something different than I read, because this stuff is frankly
nuts.
---
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From: "The Pilot" <some...@microsoft.com>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: super scio - POOR STACY IN BUCKWUPISTAN
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Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 08:14:04 GMT
subj : super scio - POOR STACY IN BUCKWUPISTAN
Now here is the sad story of another crazy thing that OSA
tried against me.
The critics will be fast to point out that this psychic attack
probably wouldn't work and that the whole idea is stupid. And
maybe it is. But that is beside the point because the important
thing is that OSA would believe it because RON said that it
works. And so they would hypnotise a poor young girl and
accidentally drive her to suicide.
The attack is called a Buckwupistan attack because Ron sometimes
described this as a way to get rid of the primier of Buckwupistan
(a made up country).
The basic idea is to hypnotize somebody, preferably an emotionally
high strung teenage girl, and order them, under hypnosis, to
exteriorize from their body and go over to the target (the primier
of Buckwupistan or his wife or whatever) and blanket their body
and fill them with intense sexual desires or suicidal impulses or
whatever.
Thetans blanketing bodies for sexual kicks is discussed extensively
in early Scientology materials and can even be found in Hubbard's
book "History of Man".
As for the Buckwupistan attacks, they have been cutting these out
of the clearsound tapes and you will have to reference older
reel-to-reel tape versions. Here is an excerpt from tape
5210C30A SOP8A (SOP lectures number 8A), "THE ROLE OF EARTH".
> A thetan can go over and take possession of the body of - let's say
> we want to influence the priemier of Buckwupistan. So we boot this
> thetan out and make this thetan go over and knock out the thetan
> in the wife of the priemier of Buckwupistan.
>
> And then we are holding the body of the person that we send over
> there and they are still connected and in communication with this
> body. At which moment ... (sound of somebody entering the room)
> Pretty wild stuff to walk into suddenly ... (laughter).
>
> So we simply monitor, now all of a sudden we find we are able to
> monitor the wife of the priemier of Buckwupistan with great ease.
> And we get her into a tremendous affair with a court chamberlain
> you see. And we just get things swirled up like a fire drill.
> And the next thing you know, he's dispossessed. They say his rents
> up on Buckwupistan or something of this sort because of scandal,
> because of this, because of that. Its a very neat political manuver.
>
> And it is so neat that there is probably not a member of the class
> present who is along the category of (case level) IV or V who hasn't
> done it. And that is the reason why a lot of Vs and VIs are
> completely unwilling to get out of their heads. Because its an
> overt act to send somebody out of his head. And you've sent
> people out of their heads over to some vast distance. And having
> sent these people over, they run into a body or something which
> is then injured. Or something happens to their body right where
> you are. And you caused a complete foul up and extinction of
> a being.
I don't have OSA's modern writeup on this. It would be highly
secret.
In January of 2000, after their sex-drug-hypnosis failed and I
didn't kill myself at midnight of the Millenium New Years Eve,
they decided to try this crazy Buchwupistan thing. They do, after
all, believe in Ron's genius and think that they have a superior
mental and psychic technology that gives them great power.
So they assigned some girls (18 to 21 years old) at the secret base
to "squirrel hunting". There were regular sessions using different
girls in rotation. A pair of OSA agents would give the girl somthing
to drink containing Rohypnol and then put her into a hypnotic trance.
They would show her a picture of me and of my house and tell her to
exteriorize from her body and float across town and find me, The Pilot.
They would tell her to blanket my body. Then they would sexually
stimulate her and tell her to lock onto me with sexual energy.
Then they would tell her that I was an enemy of Scientology and must
be made to die. While masturbating her, they would tell her
"Permeate him and make him think 'Kill Yourself', 'Kill Yourself'".
Of course the girls were then told to forget and so forth and they
wouldn't remember what had been going on. But all this stuff
about sex and suicide was stirring around in their subconscious.
Needless to say, this attack did them no good and they soon abandoned
it as a bad idea. But this sick hypnosis had already deeply damaged
one of the girls.
In June of 2000, 20 year old Stacy Grove Meyer (aka Stacy Moxon)
comitted suicide by climbing up a ladder and grabbing a 7,200 volt
power line with her bare hand at Golden Era.
It's not nice to repeat "kill yourself" over and over again to a
young girl under hypnosis.
They say that Helen Korbin, who knew Stacy, cried for days after
it happened, but she never knew the real cause of her death.
Sadly,
The Pilot
henri
>But Ken seemed to have gotten through and past that. His philosophy,
>written in one of the May 20th posts, is very sane.
Including the parts about OSA using some kind of bizarre sex magic on
Stacey Moxon to psychically program him to commit suicide? This passage is
anything but sane.
Zinj
says...
> Patty Pieniadz wrote:
<snips>
> > He killed himself. I doubt he hung out with
> > anyone that knows the signs of depression
> > and could help him out.
> With all due respect to one of my favorite a.r.s. voices, did
> you read what he wrote in May?
I agree with you as to my respect for Patty, and, with caveats,
with her opinions. Usually.
In this case, I disagree.
ARS and Scientology Critics are not a forensics lab. Nor are we a
police agency with the power to investigate jack shit.
Yes, many people here are excellent in 'investigating' through
public record, and, there is literally tons of invaluable
experience to draw from.
But, such tools as subpoenas and search warrants and writs and even
the access to less available public record as is available to
'private detectives' is, for the most part, not available to ARS
and critics in general.
What I read from the coroner's report is that there is no police or
prosecutor's office desire to investigate what is quite obviously a
'suspicious' death.
Why? It could be direct 'Church' of Scientology influence. They
have it, they use it, it exists.
But, it could also be the kind of cowardly 'don't catch the skunk'
official avoidance of all things Scientology that *doesn't* require
direct corruption.
There is no way to tell. But, I do find the quite deliberate
downplaying of suspicious elements to be itself suspicious.
And, what can we do about it?
Probably nothing. So, while it's completely conceivable that Ken
deliberately killed himself; even that he might have done so with a
deliberate intention of throwing suspicion on the so called
'Church', we do *not* have enough information to say flatly 'He
killed himself'; nor will we ever, at least until some future raid
turns up that he *didn't*.
Do I think the 'Church' would have *liked* to kill him? Certainly.
Do I think they would do it if they could? Certainly.
Do I think they did? Sorry; I don't have enough information.
Maybe he killed himself. Maybe the 'Church' did. Maybe 'somebody
else' did. I (and we) don't know. Nor are we likely to know.
And, the people who are entrusted with finding out don't want to.
So, until there is some actual information, I won't say that the
'Church' killed Ken; no matter how possible.
Nor that Ken killed himself, no matter how possible.
I (and we) don't know; can't know. at least until somebody who
*does* know tells us.
Zinj
--
You Can Lead a Clam to Reason; but You Can't Make Him Think
Patty Pieniadz
Oh Ed, you are colored Teal on my newsreader which means
you are one of my favorites as well. I enjoy your perspective
on things very much.
And yes I did read his posts from May of this year and remember
being sad to see that he still seemed very messed up.
That one of Black Scientology is way, way, out there.
I didn't see that he was doing better at all. I saw a very
damaged guy, trying to explain what was going on with him
with the use of Scn mumbo jumbo and a psychologist who
gave him the rape idea and he ran with it.
I was truly saddened by those posts.
>
> I would also stay away from his solo practices. He bought into the
> idea of LRH that we are all endlessly the effect of endless past
> universes and their hypnotic commands and the only way out is through
> endless solo auditing of this stuff. This supposed distant past track
> is so unreal that there is never any way to know whether it is real or
> something you imagine, as in false memory syndrome.
>
> But Ken seemed to have gotten through and past that. His philosophy,
> written in one of the May 20th posts, is very sane. He had finally
> experienced loving and being loved and much healing of the previous
> horrible experience you mentioned above.
Ya, so he says, but he's still believing in all the Scn hocus pocus
to explain what is going on with him. He's hallucinating and he's
basically hearing voices (the OSA girls that are telling him to kill
himself). If he never got to the true source of these hallucinations
who's to say he didn't have more and even wilder hallucinations
that told him to kill himself and so he did. The voices could have
told him anything including don't write a suicide note.
Zinj is right that we may never know the truth about this, but in
the mean time, I'm going with the suicide theory. It makes the
most sense to me.
Patty
Kevin Brady
> Hi Kevin -- Top posting: Ken posted I think seven posts on May 20th,
> of which some were just a.c.t. and some here and a.c.t. I think
> Heidrun has these posts on her site and she posted a link in one of
> her previous posts. Also, what's the chance that someone's phone
> happens to not be working on a given day? Pretty small. We don't know
> whether it was something like dead battery in the phone, or whether
> the actual phone line was tampered with.
>
> Ed
Now you're giving me the willies.
Zinj
ppie...@gmail.com says...
> Zinj is right that we may never know the truth about this, but in
> the mean time, I'm going with the suicide theory. It makes the
> most sense to me.
>
> Patty
One of the nice things about not being a juror or limited by rules
of evidence or the necessity of following legal 'instructions' is
that we are *not* required to form an opinion or reach a
'conclusion'.
Whether Ken killed himself, or the 'Church' killed him is not a
question we're called to resolve. And, never having been a
Scientologist, *not* knowing is not one of the things that
terrifies me :)
Certainty is overrated.
Thankfully, since, I remember Ms. Bloodybutt and 'Operation
Freakout' and, if it's Scientology, *nothing* surprises me.
The 'truth' is not up for a vote or a poll, but, it's almost always
different than we think.
Patty Pieniadz
Ya, that's what I thought when I read this post.
Patty P
OldRookie
>In article <5g7g6mF...@mid.individual.net>,
>ppie...@gmail.com says...
>
>Whether Ken killed himself, or the 'Church' killed him is not a
>question we're called to resolve. And, never having been a
>Scientologist, *not* knowing is not one of the things that
>terrifies me :)
>
>Certainty is overrated.
>
I have a simple attitude towards this.
Scientology killed the poor bastard even if it was by his own hand.
Sucking up Hubbard's crap is more than enough to finish anyone off,
especially someone who worked so hard at it as he did.
Zinj
OldR...@not.here says...
There's some truth there, but, the unanswered question here is
whether the 'Church' *deliberately* killed him.
Nobody but the 'Church' knows, but, if it's a question of motive,
opportunity and method... yeah, they got it all.
...and a past history of such things.
If asked, I would say that I consider it a given that the 'Church'
has killed *dozens* over its 50 year history, almost universally of
its 'own'. I don't doubt that they've murdered a couple of other
'targets of opportunity', but, I think most of the carrion is from
the Sea Org.
They can; they would; who would know?
Out_Of_The_Dark
> The coroner's report is finally complete.
>
> Left wrist tied with wire - no comparable wire found
> on the property...!
>
> I am pretty helpless with the handwriting. If anybody has
> the time to compare the handwritten notes to the typewritten
> text in the end, and lets me know whether there is anything
> in the handwritten that is not in the typewritten, I would
> be very grateful:
>
> http://www.sgmt.at/PILOT/Ogger%20Coroner%20Report.pdf
>
> Heidrun Beer
>
> Workgroup for Fundamental Spiritual Research and Mental Training
>
> http://www.sgmt.at
>
> http://www.RecastReality.org <
Heidrun, all the handwritten notes have been noted in typed summaries
there. Nothing outside of that appears handwritten. If Ms Kelly backs
what is said in this coroner's report, I can't see any reason to not
believe it. unless you feel that perhaps someone from the opposition
got to Ms Kelly, which is highly uinlikely.
I feel that the report and previous information you've posted here on
this supports that it is most likely suicide. Beyond the reasoning of
the report, and if his mother agrees with the information in it, we
have the fact that his state of mind was fragile.
What surprises me is that the report states he is said to have no
history of psychological help, yet he wrote in early May on usenet
that he'd spoken with a hypnotherapist who TOLD him that posthypnotic
commands lose their grip unless accompanied by rape... giving a
person 'the pleasure/ pain syndrome'. would be the only reason the
command would have impact. He obviously felt overwhelmed by something
he believed to be a command. The hypnotherapist gave him no way out by
this statement. Where is the solution?
discussion Super Scio - BLACK SCIENTOLOGY
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.scientology/msg/4aeca08e77b6bbf1?dmode=source
The impact from that statement may well be the main reason behind him
deciding to committed suicide. He was in debt with medical bills, he
was according t the report, not truthful to his mother about his
bills. I read elsewhere that he felt unfulfilled in his romantic life,
missed married life, hated that his marriage was torn apart by the
cult, and he was convinced that the cult was going to come after him
again all the while with no solutions on how to rise above it!
The biggest lie Hubbard ever told was that purpose is senior to policy
because more people have used that to justify doing things like
committing suicide while thinking that they can come back next life on
a clean slate. If Ken killed himself then he probably felt that death
would erase his current problems. That is not something a sane person
does. Maybe he was right, that the cult was trying to drive him
insane.
I would like to think he didn't kill himself but even if he did, we
know who wanted him to do it. Same thing as far as I am concerned.
Mary McConnell
Feisty
>
>
> The coroner's report is finally complete.
>
> Left wrist tied with wire - no comparable wire found
> on the property...!
>
> I am pretty helpless with the handwriting. If anybody has
> the time to compare the handwritten notes to the typewritten
> text in the end, and lets me know whether there is anything
> in the handwritten that is not in the typewritten, I would
> be very grateful:
>
>
> http://www.sgmt.at/PILOT/Ogger%20Coroner%20Report.pdf
I am sorry for the loss of your friend, Ken Ogger.
Despite the controversial nature of his death, it would be difficult to guess why, or
what motivation exists. Despite the obvious tragedy, and history of $cientology's
tactics.
$cientology splits, or disassociates people, and to figure "what was in his head" is
impossible. $cientologists are trained as if they can "read peoples thoughts" or
explain what is in other peoples minds. When they talk to spots walls and entities
that are not there, it is difficult to say who really was present in his mind,
including the thoughts posted here before his death.
For some those thoughts start to play like broken records, and when L Ron Hubbard's
words are involved, it becomes a literal Nuremburg in a persons mind. Whether it is
internal or external. Both are always possible. In cases of Jeremy Perkins or others
who killed, those voices were already internal to say the least. Hubbard's added
teachings only heightening those present voices.... Outer elements exist, just look
at the stories of those who $cientology would love to call "mental" after sending
friendly neighbors to Paulette Cooper or "Miss Blood" to Tom Klemesrud. These are
external voices, no doubt OT (not) projected.
No matter which practice of $cientology one adheres to, there is no way to stop
Hubbard from victimizing until a person stops reading or practicing Hubbard, in
thought, word or deed. If you think that he taught some good things, than those
endless repetition of words can be a persons best friend and worst enemy.
Especially for those who are vulnerable, or stressed. Allowing full blown Hubbard
into a vulnerable mind is fatal. A healthy mind may be able to resist or ignore the
fact that Hubbard was teaching about "remove brainwashing" on the whole track, when
in fact he was actively doing it with the "tech."
In $cientology, there are so many things that are problems, needing removal. Then
things start coming after you. Enemies. In real life $cientology goes after people.
Within these parameters, it is difficult to say if $cientology consumed him via his
own mind, or from someone elses. In both cases, it's not a healthy practice. It
causes needless fatalaties.
Maureen