Re: Scientology: An Anti-Intellectual Movement

32 views
Skip to first unread message
Message has been deleted

morgan

unread,
Jul 12, 2006, 1:56:19 PM7/12/06
to

xenu.o...@googlemail.com wrote:
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> It is no coincidence that the Scientology Handbook, a glossy 871-page
> overview of Scientology's beliefs, illustrates this particular claim
> with a photo of eight smiling people standing in a sunny field
> alongside a photo of two scowling people, dressed as scientists, with
> an atomic explosion behind them (see
> http://www.scientologyhandbook.org/img/pg414_1.jpg). For fifty years,
> Scientology has waged a ferocious war of attrition against science and
> medicine, to the extent that it has become (as the Boston Globe
> newspaper put it ["Boston U.'s Scientology connection", Boston Globe,
> 16 September 1998]) "one of the leading anti-intellectual movements of
> our time."
>
> Rejectionism underlies Scientology and its Narconon offshoot. Indeed,
> it is the reason for the existence of both. Scientology's predecessor
> Dianetics has long been described as "the only workable science of the
> mind", rejecting outright orthodox psychology and psychiatry.
> Scientology itself is claimed to be the only viable solution to the
> problems of "livingness" (sic), with Hubbard telling his followers that
> "The planet is doomed if we don't operate." [Hubbard, "State of OT",
> lecture of 23 May 1963]
>
> The detoxification methods used in Narconon are held to be "the first
> and only regimen in existence" that effectively and safely reduces
> toxins in the body, with "no breakthrough made at all" until Hubbard
> turned his attention to the field. [Dr. Megan Shields, in Hubbard,
> Clear Body, Clear Mind (1988), p. 1]
>
> LINK:
> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Narconon/versus.htm
>
> ~ Lord Xenu~
> =====
> http://www.ronthenut.org/
> http://www.scientology-kills.org/dead/dead.htm
> http://www.xenu.net/
> http://www.bible.ca/scientology-price-list.htm
> =====

Is the Scientology Handbook the same as the book called What is
Scientology? thanks

Kelli Ayed

unread,
Jul 12, 2006, 9:26:27 PM7/12/06
to

No, they are not the same, although they are both think, heavy and
glossy. Time for a trip to your local library!

Message has been deleted

Kelli Ayed

unread,
Jul 12, 2006, 9:36:52 PM7/12/06
to

think = thick!

Kelli Ayed

unread,
Jul 12, 2006, 9:38:28 PM7/12/06
to
Lord Xenu wrote:
> X-No-Archive: Yes

>
> Kelli Ayed wrote:
>
>> No, they are not the same, although they are both think, heavy and
>> glossy. Time for a trip to your local library!
>
> Yes, they're 'different' in that they have the same material but
> arranged differently and rehashed. Neither are worth the paper that
> they're printed on unless you're in the middle of the woods without
> toilet-paper.
>
> ~Lord Xenu~
> =====
> http://www.xenu.net/
> http://www.whyaretheydead.net/
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Schwarz
> =====
>
There are, like, two copies of each in my house... any bidders? (joke
- go buy TP, it works better)
Message has been deleted

Kelli Ayed

unread,
Jul 12, 2006, 10:56:11 PM7/12/06
to
Lord Xenu wrote:
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> Kelli Ayed wrote:
>
> So, Kelli, would you agree that the cult of Scientology is an
> anti-intellectual movement with its derision of the scientific method,
> modern medicine and the like?

Well, my family and I have been out for 5 months. We have spent the
past 5 months researching and reading both books and the net, trying to
make sense of our whole experience. I spent the past 13 years truly
believing that every word out of Ron's mouth (or pen) were golden and
absolutely factual, and to discover (from multiple sources with the
documentation to back it up) that he was nothing more than a charlatan
and a fraud was more than a little shocking. It's still going to take
some more time to get over that.

Anti-intellectual... absolutely. My daughter was encouraged to miss
school on multiple occasions to complete courses or make up time (not
that I ever allowed that). I was personally derided by higher execs
than myself (I was the HES and Dissem Sec, respectively) for having
gotten a college education. Outside study was grounds for an ethics
visit, ostensibly because one should use any available time to move up
the bridge. I never knew anything about the views on the scientific
method, simply assuming that when Ron said it was researched, then it
was researched.

One of the most wonderful women I have ever known died from cancer just
a few months after completing the Purif for the second time. She never
went to the doctor for anything because she was well schooled in natural
healing type stuff. Her husband is a chiro and actually delivered all
of their children at home himself. She wasn't diagnosed until she was
well past the point of no return. The response of KC org's current HES
was to send her folders uplines to see what went wrong with her
auditing. I am saddened, I am sickened, and I am angry that these
people continue to be allowed to inhabit this planet.

My daughter was born with a heart condition that required open heart
surgery immediately after birth. I was told by the doctors then that
she would begin to have problems again when she reached adult size,
which did turn out to be true. She is now 15 and has gone from
apparently normal all of her life to where stairs and such can make her
pass out, in a very short time period. The EO and HES were insistent
that she was PTS when she was born and just needed to get that sorted
out. Well, I won, but how many scientologists in similar situations
don't even argue?

It's all well and good to debate all of these issues, and every day,
reading here on ars, I am healing a little bit more. But I am also
getting more and more outraged at all that they have done and are still
doing, to very real people in the very real world.

Of course they are anti-intellectual. Otherwise parishioners might go
read something that gets them to snap out of it. Then where would they be?

Kelli

Message has been deleted

Kevin Brady

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 12:51:56 AM7/13/06
to
Scientology Handbook is a book of procedure, What is Scientology is a book
of description, largely PR.
"Kelli Ayed" <kell...@everestkc.net> wrote in message
news:8e4e0$44b5a228$4088d80a$13...@EVERESTKC.NET...

Kevin Brady

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 12:54:27 AM7/13/06
to

"Lord Xenu" <xenu.o...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1152754829....@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...

> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> Kelli Ayed wrote:
>
>> No, they are not the same, although they are both think, heavy and
>> glossy. Time for a trip to your local library!
>
> Yes, they're 'different' in that they have the same material but
> arranged differently and rehashed.

Not true at all. Scientology handbook has description of particular points
of theory, and is heavy on exercises and procedure.

> Neither are worth the paper that
> they're printed on unless you're in the middle of the woods without
> toilet-paper.

Examination of the Scientology Handbook shows many helpful things, not least
of which is the Admin Scale. What is Scientology is only useful to a
scholar who is interested in archiving how the Church wants to be perceived,
or to the PR Department of the Church as a heavyweight item to give to new
adherent's family/friends.

Kelli Ayed

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 12:52:41 AM7/13/06
to
> Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I think this quote
> from you says it all:

>
>> Of course they are anti-intellectual. Otherwise parishioners might go
>> read something that gets them to snap out of it. Then where would they be?
>
> Most totalitarian systems are anti-intellectual. They try to instill
> the belief that one step outside the circle means certain death.

With scientology, it is not only death, but all of your eternity, and
they are the ones that hold it in THEIR hand, to give or take from you
at their will. The thought never occurs to you that what they have is
something undesirable, and by the time it does, you are so wrapped up in
it that extricating yourself can be very tricky, and you risk losing
people that you love.

> Independent thought, willed action of any sort are motions that break
> bonds and remove blinders in such situations. Whether we come from a
> conventional religious background or otherwise, free inquiry is not a
> philosophy that is ever encouraged and, if it is, there are definite
> limits to it.
>
> I am glad you and your family are now free and I wish you the best in
> your healing process. While I am no expert, feel free to e-mail me
> 'off-list' if you ever want to chat or something; you know, girl talk.

Thanks. I just may do that sometime.

> :-)
>
> Tory, Arnie Lerma, Andreas, Mark Bunker (and plenty more besides!) are
> the best people to talk through these issues you mentioned, however.
> They have, to use a slight pun, 'walked through the fire' just as you
> have or have helped others escape from it.
>
> Have a good evening and take care!

And you. I'm off to sleepy-land now...

>
> ~Lord Xenu~
>

realpch

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 1:16:36 AM7/13/06
to

This is the first time that I've heard of members being ragged for
having gotten a college education. One of the things I deplore about the
Church is that those young kids being snapped up by the Sea Org are not
getting to go to college.

When I was in school, my high school didn't teach logic or say a word
about the scientific method. Having that knowledge is important for
recognizing false claims. Some people seem to be born knowing that
stuff, and some aren't. I myself wasn't. Anyway, you got out, though I'd
wish for you that you hadn't had to learn by painful experience.

Peach
--
Extra! Extra! Read All About It!
Save some dough, save some grief:
http://www.xenu.net
http://www.scientology-lies.com

Ball of Fluff

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 1:13:03 AM7/13/06
to

"realpch" <rea...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:44B5D734...@aol.com...


Unfortunately, it's not the first I've heard of it. I ran across it a couple
times when I was in.

C

www.claireswazey.com


rockyslammer

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 2:17:41 AM7/13/06
to
Nice to see you here. 5 months isn't long enough to get over all your
trauma yet but I see you are well on your way. Great - good on yer.

I gobbled up the silly scientology for 18 years and left in 1983 - I am
still finding "unusual" thoughts and mental patterns.

I wish you and your family the best. Please keep here and tell us
more.

Muldoon

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 2:49:55 AM7/13/06
to

Wow. Is this is the same Lord Xenu famous for such lines as "You may
want to look in the mirror and word clear cooze," and "Get off my
dick"?

You've come a long way, Lord Xenu. I'm proud of you.

Kevin Brady

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 3:47:17 AM7/13/06
to

"realpch" <rea...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:44B5D734...@aol.com...

When I went to the Church, I was 18, turning 19. I already had 1 and 1/2
years of college in. I was thinking of going back to finish up. They
convinced me to quit my three jobs and asked me what I thought I would learn
in college. I was a philosophy/psychology student, who wrote a lot of
poetry, so they told me that Scientology was a complete philosophy, that
dianetics was a better understanding of the mind than anything I would find
in psychology, and that poetry was for dilletantes. I wanted to be an
auditor, because helping people appealed to me. So I signed the bottom
line. And whenever I mentioned wanting to go back to college, they always
told me not to be a dilletante, and just go to staff study.

That bias is DEFINITELY there. Only scientology training matters, all other
fields of endeavor are for dilletantes. Public are not dedicated. When
they one day have the cog that the most valuable beings on the planet are
auditors, they'll give up their jobs and join staff as auditors, or as admin
staff and training as auditors. That's the "think".

I learned all about the scientific method, and did lots of experiments in
7th grade. After that, I took a lot of math, but avoided science classes,
because I fancied myself a poet/philosopher. Now, I wish I'd taken more
math, but I don't miss the science. I respect science, but I find the
actual DOING of science BORING. I did like programming. I think different
people have different temperaments. Some people really dig the doing of
science. Perhaps it would have been a lot more fun once I hit optics, or
something, but chemistry bored the fuck out of me. I think the problem is
the SLOWness that most hard science is taught at. I was always like "okay,
I get it, let's go to the lab, okay, I get it for christ's sake, what is
next?". I hated recapitulating the work of others. Impatient.


Johnny Mike

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 5:25:43 AM7/13/06
to

"Kelli Ayed" <kell...@everestkc.net> wrote in message
news:ed089$44b5b72f$4088d80a$13...@EVERESTKC.NET...

Kelli, it's so awesome that you and your family left the cult. Usually it's
not the whole family that leaves. Someone usually ends up painfully
disconnected. I'm sure you had friends that disconnected, though, which can
be just as sad, I'm sure, since you were there so long. I never had any
familiy members in Scientology. Good for you and your family that you got
out of that craziness intact!


K Palmer

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 7:28:11 AM7/13/06
to
Which is useless in the face of such a horrendous and dangerous disease.
It bugs me to no end when I see how many people are scammed by the
so-called "natural" methods - natural meds are not regulated by anyone
nor are they scientifically proven (generally). Those that are - and in
places where there is strict control on content do work - for some
people but people still need to see Doctors to have any chronic illness
monitored and followed. Ticks me off - my mother got into this stuff and
died prematurely because of her reliance on this junk and her doctor's
inability to understand how the herbals were masking what was really
wrong. So excuse me if I sound a wee bit strident.

Her husband is a chiro and actually delivered all
>> of their children at home himself. She wasn't diagnosed until she was
>> well past the point of no return. The response of KC org's current HES
>> was to send her folders uplines to see what went wrong with her
>> auditing. I am saddened, I am sickened, and I am angry that these
>> people continue to be allowed to inhabit this planet.
>>
>> My daughter was born with a heart condition that required open heart
>> surgery immediately after birth. I was told by the doctors then that
>> she would begin to have problems again when she reached adult size,
>> which did turn out to be true. She is now 15 and has gone from
>> apparently normal all of her life to where stairs and such can make her
>> pass out, in a very short time period. The EO and HES were insistent
>> that she was PTS when she was born and just needed to get that sorted
>> out. Well, I won, but how many scientologists in similar situations
>> don't even argue?
>>
>> It's all well and good to debate all of these issues, and every day,
>> reading here on ars, I am healing a little bit more. But I am also
>> getting more and more outraged at all that they have done and are still
>> doing, to very real people in the very real world.

It bugs me too - they are without compassion, care or anything else -it
is all about making money and more money.


>>
>> Of course they are anti-intellectual. Otherwise parishioners might go
>> read something that gets them to snap out of it. Then where would they be?

exactly - not being able to ask questions or search for answers outside
their tunnel vision and being completely controlled by KSW many people
suffer needlessly. How many more Lisa's have there been? How many more
suicides have happened because of the cult?

Kim P


>>
>> Kelli
>
> Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I think this quote
> from you says it all:
>

>> Of course they are anti-intellectual. Otherwise parishioners might go
>> read something that gets them to snap out of it. Then where would they be?
>

> Most totalitarian systems are anti-intellectual. They try to instill
> the belief that one step outside the circle means certain death.

> Independent thought, willed action of any sort are motions that break
> bonds and remove blinders in such situations. Whether we come from a
> conventional religious background or otherwise, free inquiry is not a
> philosophy that is ever encouraged and, if it is, there are definite
> limits to it.
>
> I am glad you and your family are now free and I wish you the best in
> your healing process. While I am no expert, feel free to e-mail me
> 'off-list' if you ever want to chat or something; you know, girl talk.

> :-)
>
> Tory, Arnie Lerma, Andreas, Mark Bunker (and plenty more besides!) are
> the best people to talk through these issues you mentioned, however.
> They have, to use a slight pun, 'walked through the fire' just as you
> have or have helped others escape from it.
>
> Have agood evening and take care!
>

> ~Lord Xenu~
>

banchukita

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 7:46:59 AM7/13/06
to


Thanks for your voice, Kelli.

I imagine many folks who read a.r.s. are, like me, wogs. What you wrote
helps give a perspective on what happens to people who've had their
belief system pulled out from under them like a rug over a sinkhole.

You must be a strong person, because I can't even detect any
Scientologese 'accent' in your posts.

I've been unprofessionally studying Scientology, Inc. from an
anthropological perspective, particularly the effect it has on
communities, for over a decade. Went in with an open mind, as I'm
usually among the first to stand up for freedom of religion. After I
was threatened with investigation into my 'crimes' because I held a
different opinion and asked some difficult questions, I began to see
the abusive pattern of behavior, applied not only to outsiders, but the
organization's own members, and the communities it inhabits and
infiltrates.

What they told you about your daughter - I am a parent. I don't get it.
how could a child be PTS to a "church" with a multimillion dollar war
chest? Was it that they wanted you to spend that money on Scientology
instead of medical bills?

I am not trying to trivialize or make clinical what is happening with
you, because everyone's experience is different, but I remember reading
that recovery from Scn, Inc. takes an average of 2 years.

Good roads to you and your family. Email if you want to talk. I've
never been in, but I'm a pretty decent listener.

-maggie, human being

> Kelli

barbz

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 8:50:37 AM7/13/06
to
Kelli Ayed wrote:

I'm sorry to hear about your daughter. I hope there's something that can
be done for her. When the cult says they don't practice medicine, that
is a flat-out lie. I hope that you can learn to contain your fury
because, you know, it will destroy you if you don't get a handle on it.

Many of us have a sort of theoretic outrage at Scientology's practices,
as we've never had first-hand experience. We know these things happen,
and they're awful enough as anecdotal accounts. There's no substitute
for first-hand knowledge and experience, however.

You appear to be a writer with some good skills. My advice is to use
those skills. When you have some thoughts sorted out, start writing
articles, you can do it. Don't get mad...get even! ;)

--
"I'm for the separation of church and hate."

Barb
Chaplain, ARSCC(wdne)
xenu...@netscape.net

Scamology

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 10:32:34 AM7/13/06
to
Great observation of how the cult of $cientology ignores safe medical
practice in the blind faith of a man, LRH, who died while taking
Vistaril.

xenu.net
xenutv.com

Kelli Ayed

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 11:10:58 AM7/13/06
to

Thank you, I will.
Kelli

Kelli Ayed

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 11:23:48 AM7/13/06
to

She didn't go to a doctor for anything before this happened, what
happened was she dropped and was taken to the ER, and then the hospital
kept her to figure out what was going on. She didn't get regular
checkups, and if she felt ill she would treat it herself and get
auditing, assists, PTS handlings and the like. So there was no
possibility of it being caught in time to do anything about it. She did
get medical care after she was diagnosed, but like I said below, she was
way past the point of no return. All the hospital could do was make her
as comfortable as possible and watch her die.

Kelli Ayed

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 11:27:08 AM7/13/06
to

That's funny... my daughter missed going into the SO when she was 12 by
3 questions on a literacy test, then later she had changed her mind.
Thank God she didn't make it!!!

Yeah, me too.

>
> Peach

Kelli Ayed

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 11:33:31 AM7/13/06
to

Yeah - "The whole agonized future of this planet, every Man, Woman and
Child on it, and your own destiny for the next endless trillions of
years depend on what you do here and now with and in Scientology." from
KSW. How's that for a guilt trip if you ever want to do anything else?

Kelli Ayed

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 11:40:12 AM7/13/06
to

Yes. My very best friend. He's on a study program in LA to get back
into the SO - wants to be an auditor at ASHO. Also was fired from my
job working for a scn dentist - one HELL of a lawsuit, coming up!

Kevin Brady

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 11:54:13 AM7/13/06
to

"Kelli Ayed" <kell...@everestkc.net> wrote in message
news:9d1d7$44b668b0$4088d80a$30...@EVERESTKC.NET...

It was a good appeal to my inner Luke Skywalker. But it did give me the
creepies. Part of my wakeup call that something was kind of stinky.

<snip>


Kelli Ayed

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 11:52:50 AM7/13/06
to

Yes, I am, but I think that mostly has to do with the fact that as the
Dissem Sec, I had to explain scientology to a lot of people who knew
nothing about it, so I learned to communicate it in regular English!

>
> I've been unprofessionally studying Scientology, Inc. from an
> anthropological perspective, particularly the effect it has on
> communities, for over a decade. Went in with an open mind, as I'm
> usually among the first to stand up for freedom of religion. After I
> was threatened with investigation into my 'crimes' because I held a
> different opinion and asked some difficult questions, I began to see
> the abusive pattern of behavior, applied not only to outsiders, but the
> organization's own members, and the communities it inhabits and
> infiltrates.

Wow! THAT is quite an undertaking, I'm sure!

>
> What they told you about your daughter - I am a parent. I don't get it.
> how could a child be PTS to a "church" with a multimillion dollar war
> chest? Was it that they wanted you to spend that money on Scientology
> instead of medical bills?

They said she was PTS when she was born, which was 2 years before I got
in. Also, because of the anesthesia and morphine from the surgery, she
was considered to be a "heavy drug case", handleable only by the Purif,
Objectives and Drug Rundown. We never could get a doctor to OK her
doing the Purif, however (whew!). I have really good insurance for her,
so medical bills weren't an issue.

>
> I am not trying to trivialize or make clinical what is happening with
> you, because everyone's experience is different, but I remember reading
> that recovery from Scn, Inc. takes an average of 2 years.

I did NOT want to hear that! Can I be the exception, pleeeeease?

>
> Good roads to you and your family. Email if you want to talk. I've
> never been in, but I'm a pretty decent listener.

Thanks!

>
> -maggie, human being
>
>> Kelli
>

Kelli Ayed

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 12:02:28 PM7/13/06
to

Yes, we're looking at a valve replacement, not sure when; that's up to
the doctor. In the meantime, activity restriction is keeping her
symptoms at bay. And don't worry, when I channel my anger in a positive
direction... let's just say they need to watch it. I can be very
outspoken and persistent in what I believe is right. I'm also not
afraid of anything. (Gotta love those TR's!)

>
> Many of us have a sort of theoretic outrage at Scientology's practices,
> as we've never had first-hand experience. We know these things happen,
> and they're awful enough as anecdotal accounts. There's no substitute
> for first-hand knowledge and experience, however.

I would gladly have a substitute... and 13 years of my life back.

>
> You appear to be a writer with some good skills. My advice is to use
> those skills. When you have some thoughts sorted out, start writing
> articles, you can do it. Don't get mad...get even! ;)
>

Thank you, but the real writer in this family isn't posting! I already
started a journal on the whole thing, and when I'm ready, will compile
it and send it to Arnie and Andreas...

K Palmer

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 1:28:53 PM7/13/06
to

Sad isn't it? So terrible when so many cancers can be beaten if caught
early enough. Ticks me off when so-called religions - and there are
many who teach followers to eschew doctors or follow scam artists like
Kevin Trudeau (my neighbour came to our house to research on him - she
is totally into the whole 'natural' thing). I sincerely hope this woman
did not die alone -or was she merely offloaded? So so sad

Kim P
>
>>

Keith Henson

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 1:34:41 PM7/13/06
to

Oh man, and what a story you have to tell.

If you want my take on why and how people get sucked into cults, ask.

Keith Henson

banchukita

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 3:09:40 PM7/13/06
to

That's okay by me! Hey, averages are just that...averages. You can set
the curve!


> >
> > Good roads to you and your family. Email if you want to talk. I've
> > never been in, but I'm a pretty decent listener.
>
> Thanks!
>

I meant that. Sometimes it can help to "core dump," and believe me I
understand about children with severe medical challenges.

Barbz' right, you write very well. I look forward to reading what you
plan to compile; it sounds like it's going to help shed some light. I
appreciate and respect your effort to channel your anger to make
something positive happen!


> >
> > -maggie, human being
> >
> >> Kelli
> >

Kelli Ayed

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 3:12:25 PM7/13/06
to

OK, I'm asking...
Kelli

Kelli Ayed

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 3:18:56 PM7/13/06
to

It is a class V org, and she was very well loved by many of us. She had
round the clock assists for weeks by many well meaning scientologists
who thought they were helping her. When it got bad enough, she and her
husband allowed pain meds. And no, she was not alone. Yes, very sad.

Funny you mention Kevin Trudeau - he was the hottest fad to hit the org
in a long time!

Kelli

Kelli Ayed

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 3:21:34 PM7/13/06
to

*WHEW!!!*

>
>>> Good roads to you and your family. Email if you want to talk. I've
>>> never been in, but I'm a pretty decent listener.
>> Thanks!
>>
>
> I meant that. Sometimes it can help to "core dump," and believe me I
> understand about children with severe medical challenges.
>

You'll have to tell me about that off list, I am interested but maybe
it's not relevant to scientology?

> Barbz' right, you write very well. I look forward to reading what you
> plan to compile; it sounds like it's going to help shed some light. I
> appreciate and respect your effort to channel your anger to make
> something positive happen!
>

It may take me a while...

>
>
>
>>> -maggie, human being
>>>
>>>> Kelli
>

banchukita

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 3:29:47 PM7/13/06
to

You're right. I'll email you off list.

Hey, if you get a chance, please read what Cerridwen just posted, and
especially the reply from Kristi Wachter.


-maggie, human being

Kelli Ayed

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 3:42:44 PM7/13/06
to

I did, and thank you for directing me to that.

Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted

Muldoon

unread,
Jul 13, 2006, 10:16:53 PM7/13/06
to

Lord Xenu wrote:
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> >
> > Wow. Is this is the same Lord Xenu famous for such lines as "You may
> > want to look in the mirror and word clear cooze," and "Get off my
> > dick"?
> >
> > You've come a long way, Lord Xenu. I'm proud of you.
>
> We can all grow and change. If we don't _then_ we may just die...at
> least intellectually and emotionally. :-)
>
> ~Lord Xenu~

Well, I think it's just wonderful.

If you were to apologize to Fluff, and then congratulate her on her new
web site, it would make the miracle complete. :-)

Message has been deleted

realpch

unread,
Jul 14, 2006, 12:12:27 AM7/14/06
to
Lord Xenu wrote:
>
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> I do think her website is wonderful. Hopefully mine will be just as
> snazzy and informative when it is done.
>
> So, no hard feelings, FLuff?
>
> ~Lord Xenu~

I think it's tasteless, but there ya go, the guys are all gonna love it.

Peach
--
Extra! Extra! Read All About It!
Save some dough, save some grief:
http://www.xenu.net
http://www.scientology-lies.com

Message has been deleted

Kevin Brady

unread,
Jul 14, 2006, 1:23:08 AM7/14/06
to

"Lord Xenu" <xenu.o...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1152853066.3...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> More evidence of the cult of Scientology's anti-intellectualism. This
> corresponds to Kelli's first hand reports posted earlier in the thread.
>
> EXCERPT:
>
> Medical Standards
>
> Scientology maintains that illness comes in greater or lesser extent
> from being under the influence of an suppressive person. The condition
> is called PTSness, which stands for Potential Trouble Source.158 So all
> illness is lumped into one indistinguishable category: PTSness.

this is incorrect. Scientology believes that PTSness predisposes people to
susceptibility to illness. They believe that germs cause illness, but only
in PTS people.
>
> Scientology subscribes to the non-germ theory of illness,159 but as yet
> has not revealed how it is that vaccinations have eradicated many
> horrible diseases such as polio, small pox, typhoid and whooping cough.
> Even Gene Denk, M.D., an OT 8 medical doctor, questioned Scientology's
> germ theory to this author by asking how vaccinations work if there is
> not such thing as germs. Does everyone in the world just suddenly
> become PTS at the same time? No. Expect to see pandemics of curable
> diseases come back.
>
> Further, Scientology promotes Dianetics as a panacea. For example, on
> the subject of birthing, it advocates home births in conjunction with
> Dianetic techniques. It elevates its system of so-called preventative
> mental therapy above the physical well-being of its adherents.
>
> This author's son is a casualty of this approach. Because of the
> Dianetic influence, he was intentionally allowed to be born at home by
> a chiropractic midwife and an OB/GYN physician. These medical personnel
> knew well in advance of birth my son's breech position and in
> contravention of medical laws and known medical practice which prohibit
> breech babies being born at home, they allowed it to occur.
>
> As a result of two full days of false labor prior to a full day of true
> labor, he suffered severe brain trauma because the umbilical cord was
> wrapped around his neck three times. This caused severe oxygen
> deprivation. If he had been delivered by caesarian section at the onset
> of the first day of labor, he would have been spared a life of hell.
>
> Instead, thanks to the Dianetics approach, he spent the first weeks of
> his life at Children's Hospital on intravenous feedings and
> Phenobarbital, a barbiturate used as a sedative, a hypnotic, and an
> anticonvulsant, a drug that has been linked to lower IQ and drug
> addictions.
>
> Further, "complications during birth, long labor, a breech position ...
> are associated with an increased risk of violent suicide for adult
> men."160
>
> Therefore, instead of having a mentally healthy baby, we were given the
> nightmare of a physically damaged baby with significant mental and
> behavioral problems. When the health and safety of the patient takes a
> back seat to philosophical ideas there is always disaster.
>
> SOURCE:
> http://www.xenu.net/archive/world_without/
>
> ~Lord Xenu~
>


Message has been deleted

Kevin Brady

unread,
Jul 14, 2006, 2:05:47 AM7/14/06
to

<xenu.o...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:1152855078....@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> X-No-Archive: Yes

>
> Kevin Brady wrote:
>> "Lord Xenu" <xenu.o...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1152853066.3...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> > X-No-Archive: Yes
>> >
>> > More evidence of the cult of Scientology's anti-intellectualism. This
>> > corresponds to Kelli's first hand reports posted earlier in the thread.
>> >
>> > EXCERPT:
>> >
>> > Medical Standards
>> >
>> > Scientology maintains that illness comes in greater or lesser extent
>> > from being under the influence of an suppressive person. The condition
>> > is called PTSness, which stands for Potential Trouble Source.158 So all
>> > illness is lumped into one indistinguishable category: PTSness.
>>
>> this is incorrect. Scientology believes that PTSness predisposes people
>> to
>> susceptibility to illness. They believe that germs cause illness, but
>> only
>> in PTS people.
>
> So, if a group of Scientologists were all to be exposed to chicken-pox
> at a friend's house or passing through a public area like a mall or a
> grocery store and they all became sick then they would all be PTS at
> the same time?
>
> ~Lord Xenu~

I think that there would be an investigation to find out what the common
suppressive influence was, if they really decided to get down to brass
tacks.

The assumption would be that whoever got sick had been exposed to a
suppressive influence.

Perhaps Chicken Pox themselves are suppressive? LOL!

There is a certain sense to it, but they take it to a ridiculous extreme.
It is true that people who are under stress are likely to have diminished
immune systems, and one could see the stressor as the suppressive, which is
how I rationalized it when I was in. Of course, this was taken to a logical
absurdity, but that's nothing new.

Which makes me consider a question which would probably surrender to
scientific experiment:

Do people who are diagnosed with PTSD suffer more freqent and severe
episodes of illness (common cold, or whatever, actually)?


K Palmer

unread,
Jul 14, 2006, 8:42:58 AM7/14/06
to

That is good that she was not off loaded - death by millimeters is never
easy to witness but it is important that no one should suffer alone as
hard as it is to be there sometimes.

As for Kevin Trudeau - just another scam artist out to rook as many
people as possible out of as much money as possible. Makes me sick
knowing he and others like him are out there leeching off vulnerable
people and causing unknown amounts of harm. Blech

Kim P

Keith Henson

unread,
Jul 14, 2006, 1:36:08 PM7/14/06
to
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 14:12:25 -0500, Kelli Ayed
<kell...@everestkc.net> wrote:

>Keith Henson wrote:

snip

>> If you want my take on why and how people get sucked into cults, ask.
>

>OK, I'm asking...
>Kelli

Ok, short version:

For reasons rooted in who became our ancestors, i.e., those who hunted
or did other things gaining them recognition and attention, evolution
equipped humans with reward circuits.

Researchers map out these circuits in brains with functional MRI. The
reward circuits are known to be activated by other parts of the brain
that release endorphins and dopamine.

So attention causes the release of brain chemicals that are known to
have the same effect as addictive drugs. (More correctly addictive
drugs have the same effect as evolved brain reward chemicals.)

People differ in how either how much reward chemicals they release in
response to intense attention or how sensitive they are or both (I
just don't know).

Some people get such an intense effect from attention (love bombing,
auditing, TRs, psychoanalysis, etc.) that the effect overrides
rational thinking, economic concerns, care for family, etc.

The long version is here:

http://human-nature.com/nibbs/02/cults.html

and is widely linked:

Results 1 - 10 of about 12,900 for sex drugs cults "keith henson".

Hope you find it useful in understanding what happened to you.

Best wishes,

Keith Henson

chuckbeatty77 @aol.com

unread,
Jul 14, 2006, 2:16:59 PM7/14/06
to


Kelli,

In my opinion, Steve Hassan's book is an excellent start: Combatting
Cult MInd Control, it is easily gotten on Amazon.com, and it will bring
you to tears, I guarantee.
It did me! Steve has got what goes on in Scn just down perfectly!

It took me two years to even come up to being comfortable with having
Scientology labeled a cult. Coming out of Scn depends on how much and
quickly you replace your Hubbard agreed upon ideas with other ideas.

Read Steve Hassan's book.

This site has the most books and just a year's worth of reading
material:
http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/

This site has just VITAL TV shows to watch:
http://whyaretheydead.net/Sten/www.users.wineasy.se/www.users.wineasy.se/noname/multimed/

And this site has the same shows and others VITAL to be viewed in the
years to come as you wish, there is MORE to read and watch than there
is TIME:
http://www.xenutv.com/

Kelli, I emailed you seperately, if you are interested in being a
source of info to major media that are always doing ongoing stories on
Scn. Your having come out so recently, you and anyone else willing to
be interviewed by media, no guarantee you will get face time or quoted,
but at least your recent experiences can be shared with media.

Please call!

Best, Chuck Beatty
412-260-1170 (anytime over the weekend is good with me!)
ex Sea Org (1975-2003)

Kelli Ayed

unread,
Jul 14, 2006, 4:12:41 PM7/14/06
to

Thank you... that makes sense.

Kelli Ayed

unread,
Jul 14, 2006, 4:18:19 PM7/14/06
to

Thanks, I'll start with my local library and go from there. We've been
on xenu-tv for months, and you're right about the amount of stuff!

As I always check my email first, I already responded to the above...
hopefully it won't take me too long to be ready.

Have a wonderful day!
Kelli

Muldoon

unread,
Jul 14, 2006, 4:30:47 PM7/14/06
to

Ball of Fluff

unread,
Jul 14, 2006, 5:16:48 PM7/14/06
to

Lord Xenu wrote:
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> I do think her website is wonderful. Hopefully mine will be just as
> snazzy and informative when it is done.
>
> So, no hard feelings, FLuff?

None at all.

Just fluffy feelings.

Site is kinda bare bones and amateurish, probably, but hoping to really
learn more and have some fun with it.

We can agree to disagree on things, and maybe we can have some
interesting conversations both on points we agree on and stuff we
don't.

It's a nice sunny day out, my headache's gone and I'm going out for
drinks-well maybe just lattes- tonight.

Life's good out here and I hope it is for you as well.

C

Ball of Fluff

unread,
Jul 14, 2006, 5:19:18 PM7/14/06
to

realpch wrote:
> Lord Xenu wrote:
> >
> > X-No-Archive: Yes
> >
> > Muldoon wrote:
> > > Lord Xenu wrote:
> > > > X-No-Archive: Yes
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Wow. Is this is the same Lord Xenu famous for such lines as "You may
> > > > > want to look in the mirror and word clear cooze," and "Get off my
> > > > > dick"?
> > > > >
> > > > > You've come a long way, Lord Xenu. I'm proud of you.
> > > >
> > > > We can all grow and change. If we don't _then_ we may just die...at
> > > > least intellectually and emotionally. :-)
> > > >
> > > > ~Lord Xenu~
> > >
> > > Well, I think it's just wonderful.
> > >
> > > If you were to apologize to Fluff, and then congratulate her on her new
> > > web site, it would make the miracle complete. :-)
> >
> > I do think her website is wonderful. Hopefully mine will be just as
> > snazzy and informative when it is done.
> >
> > So, no hard feelings, FLuff?
> >
> > ~Lord Xenu~
>
> I think it's tasteless, but there ya go, the guys are all gonna love it.
>


You mean the pic, right?

I mean, the entire site has like, well, a buncha fluffy chatter on
it...

well...some would say that was tasteless too but then again, who wants
a mouth full of fluff?

Ok.Bad joke.

C

Kelli Ayed

unread,
Jul 14, 2006, 10:42:59 PM7/14/06
to

Thanks for the link. We've read Messiah or Madman, Bare-Face(d?)
Messiah and A Piece of Blue Sky. I have Paulette's book on my email
somewhere. Looks like there are only 2 more to get!

Kevin Brady

unread,
Jul 14, 2006, 10:54:21 PM7/14/06
to

"Keith Henson" <hkhe...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:44b8d138....@news2.lightlink.com...

> On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 14:12:25 -0500, Kelli Ayed
> <kell...@everestkc.net> wrote:
>
>>Keith Henson wrote:
>
> snip
>
>>> If you want my take on why and how people get sucked into cults, ask.
>>
>>OK, I'm asking...
>>Kelli
>
> Ok, short version:
>
> For reasons rooted in who became our ancestors, i.e., those who hunted
> or did other things gaining them recognition and attention, evolution
> equipped humans with reward circuits.
>
> Researchers map out these circuits in brains with functional MRI. The
> reward circuits are known to be activated by other parts of the brain
> that release endorphins and dopamine.
>
> So attention causes the release of brain chemicals that are known to
> have the same effect as addictive drugs. (More correctly addictive
> drugs have the same effect as evolved brain reward chemicals.)
>
> People differ in how either how much reward chemicals they release in
> response to intense attention or how sensitive they are or both (I
> just don't know).
>
> Some people get such an intense effect from attention (love bombing,
> auditing, TRs, psychoanalysis, etc.) that the effect overrides
> rational thinking, economic concerns, care for family, etc.

And while that all sounds pretty good, it isn't the whole story,
necessarily, although you make it sound like it is. No doubt receiving
attention feels good (especially unconditional positive regard), but this
completely discounts the concepts of catharsis and cognitive restructuring.
And neither of those concepts have been scientifically eliminated, and are
rather obvious features of psychotherapy, or of simple reflection on one's
experience.

This is my problem with Evolutionary Psychology. It has a lot of important
explanations and insights to human nature. However, they are not the whole
story, and seem to discount essential elements of human experience.

Behavioralism made similar errors.

Discounting the subjective experience of reality (mentalism), and assuming
that all of our actions are responses to genetic scripts, no matter how
flexible and multi-dimensioned, seems to be ascribing to fallacious logic.
We have no idea what the genetic component of self-reflection might be.

I don't object to EP on grounds that it is wrong, only that it is not
necessarily the whole story, and assumptions that it is are just that. How
does EP explain or predict subjective experience? Who feels the emotions
that the body is programmed to generate in response to stimuli, stimuli
which are often determined only by experience, and which genes could not
predict?

Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages