One less scientologist in the world

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Stacy Young

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May 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/19/98
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Scientology is spreading the word far and wide through its Office of
Special Affairs network that I have gone into the business of forcible
deprogramming. During the past two weeks, OSA operatives have literally
stalked me across the country. They have known my travel plans and have met
my flights at various airports. They've known where I was staying and have
showed up at my hotel rooms. They have harassed me while I was having
lunch, and they have interrupted me at dinner to take my photograph.

The amazing thing is what I actually did to cause all of this commotion: I
sat down with a young scientologist and told her about my own firsthand
experiences in scientology. I gave her some information. That's all I did.
After she had received the information, she decided she didn't want to be
in scientology any more. No force, no violence, no coercion. Just a free
flow of information. Freedom of choice.

Does this qualify as "deprogramming" at all, much less "forcible
deprogramming"? I certainly don't think so. Personally, I would describe
it as a conversation between two adults exercising their rights of free
speech and free thought. But let me tell you the whole story of what has
caused OSA to be so afraid of me, and then all of you - scientologists and
non-scientologists alike - can decide for yourselves.

I've just spent several days in New Orleans with a wonderful family, the
Wessels. Their 27-year-old daughter Lara was recruited into scientology
about a year ago, and her family watched with alarm as their loving,
vivacious daughter's life was gradually enveloped by scientology. She had
been an aspiring, very talented actress, but once she got into scientology
she dropped her acting career entirely. The family had been very close,
but Lara had become distant. All she would talk about was scientology. Her
family was afraid they were going to lose her forever.

Lara's father Dave has some friends who were peripherally aware of a
network of people who deal with the cult problem. He contacted several of
his friends, who put him in contact with Monica Pignotti, an exit
counselor in New York, and Paul Grosswald, a former scientologist from New
York. Monica invited me to participate because she knew I had recently
helped another young woman who had left scientology on her own but had
been in really bad shape emotionally and psychologically by the time she
left. I had flown to the east coast to spend some time with her, and I had
been able to help her and her family simply because I have so much
information about what goes on and how it works inside.

So, after a long conversation with Lara's father Dave, he asked me to come
down to New Orleans because he thought I might be able to contribute some
useful information which Lara could use to make a decision about what she
wanted to do.

I arrived Tuesday (before Monica and Paul) and spent the evening with all
of Lara's family - her parents, her sister and her family, her brother and
his family, her aunt and uncle. It was very heartwarming to see how much
Lara is loved by these people. She is so lucky to have a family that cares
about her as much as they do. They had many, many questions for me, and I
answered them as well as I could. Lara had been home for the New Orleans
Jazzfest for nearly two weeks, and the whole family had been on pins and
needles, trying not to antagonize her by showing any negative feelings
about scientology. It had been exhausting for all of them.

Lara had been vigorously trying to recruit her entire family into
scientology ever since she'd been home, and everyone had been as polite in
their refusal as possible. She wanted them all to take courses at the
Baton Rouge mission, and she was sure that once they did a course they
would see why she was ready to dedicate the next billion years as a member
of scientology's elite Sea Organization. As horrified as the family was,
they had tried hard not to show it. Instead, at every opportunity her
brother Kris and her Aunt Shirley in particular had asked Lara if she
would be willing to speak to anyone about another side of the scientology
story. They told me Lara had said yes, she would. The family all agreed
Lara had been an independent thinker all her life, and they hoped that
that strength of hers would enable her to listen to legitimate
information, even if it was negative about scientology.

But now that the time had come, the family was extremely nervous and
wanted to make sure they knew what to do. The plan was for her brother
Kris and her Aunt Shirley, the two people she trusted the most, to take
Lara out for lunch the next day and tell her that her father had invited
some people to New Orleans who could give her some new information about
scientology if she was willing to listen to them. The family was
particularly worried about this step. What if she got angry and said no?
What if it drove her further into scientology and made the situation
worse?

From what they had told me about Lara, it didn't sound like she would
refuse. She loved her family enough to be willing to listen to another
side of the story if it was clearly important to them that she do so. It
also sounded as if she might already have begun to have doubts about her
involvement. I had not yet met her, but I had the feeling she was quite
strong-willed, with a mind of her own. I thought there was a good chance
that Lara would agree to listen to what we had to say.

By the end of the first evening the family was somewhat reassured, having
realized that there was nothing mysterious in the least about what was
about to happen. If Lara agreed to talk to us, we would provide her with
information that she had not had access to as a scientologist, and with
this information Lara would be in a position to make an informed choice
about whether or not she wanted to continue her involvement in
scientology. If she refused to talk to us, we would leave. It was as
simple as that. But, I told them, I was confident that she would agree,
perhaps out of a combination of love for her family and curiosity about
what kind of information we might have.

The next morning Monica and Paul arrived and we all met at the hotel while
Lara met her brother and aunt for lunch. As the time approached for the
meeting, we all piled in the car and drove to Lara's parents' house,
where, we hoped, Lara would soon join us. We made small talk for a while,
trying not to be nervous, but we all jumped when the phone finally rang.
It was Lara's brother Kris. She had agreed to meet with us, and they were
on their way. We all breathed a sigh of relief. The first big step had
been made!

Kris, Shirley and Lara arrived within a few minutes. Lara came right up
to me, shook my hand, and said cordially, "Hi, I'm Lara. Nice to meet
you." She did the same with Monica and Paul.

I asked her if she was nervous, and she said, "Yes, I guess I am a little
bit, but I'm interested in what you have to say. Let's get started."

We began by introducing ourselves and telling Lara briefly about each of
our histories in scientology. Monica had been in for six years, and she
had been with Hubbard on the ship. Paul had only been in for six months,
but he had joined the Sea Org in New York, where Lara had also joined, so
they had had similar experiences and knew some of the same people. I had
been in for fifteen years, at the Advanced Organization in Los Angeles and
later in the Guardian's Office, Author Services, Inc., and the Office of
Special Affairs.

Monica and Paul told her about some of their experiences, and Lara's
response was pretty much to say, "OK, but that kind of thing can happen
anywhere. No organization is perfect. It doesn't change the fact that
scientology helps a lot of people."

I said, "That's true, and I used to feel exactly the same way. But I
experienced some things that finally forced me to re-evaluate my
relationship with scientology. I'd like to share those experiences with
you so that you have a clear picture of the kind of organization you're
involved in."

Lara shrugged. "OK," she said. "I'm willing to hear what you have to say."

I spent about 45 minutes telling her about some of the experiences I had
in scientology. I told her that during all the years I was in scientology
I had always believed that if I could only move high enough up in the
ranks I would find scientology being practiced the way I thought it should
be, based on the policies I had read. But then I got all the way to the
top of the hierarchy, working directly with David Miscavige, and
discovered that, if anything, it was worse all the way at the top than it
had been lower down in the ranks. I told her about some of the things I
saw Miscavige do to staff, some of the things he ordered me to do to staff
which I refused to do, and I told her what happened that led me to refuse
to work with him at all, for which I was sent to the RPF.

When I was finished with my story, Lara decided she didn't want to be part
of a group in which people were abused the way I was, and the way other
people were that I described. That was literally all that happened. She
was given some information that she had not had previously. Monica and
Paul also gave her information, not only about their own experiences in
scientology but also about mind control and how it works. And that was the
extent of what happened that caused Lara Wessel to decide she no longer
wanted to be a scientologist.

Lara made her decision on Wednesday evening, May 6, the very first day we
talked to her. The next day, Thursday, we were all over at her sister's
house watching some videos of shows about scientology and mind control
when her father arrived with the news that two scientologists had showed
up at his house looking for Lara. He told them she had gone out of town
for a few days, thinking that would cause them to go away. Of course, as
we would soon find out, this just fueled their paranoia that Lara was
being "forcibly deprogrammed."

Thursday evening Lara's aunt surprised us all with tickets to the New
Orleans symphony. The music was wonderful and we all enjoyed ourselves
immensely, particularly Lara, who commented on how happy she was to have
her life back. After the program we were supposed to meet Lara's brother
and his wife for dinner. But when Lara called him he told her an
incredible story.

The New Orleans police and an ambulance had arrived at their parents'
house, all lights flashing. The police had received an anonymous phone
call that someone was committing suicide inside the house. No one was home
(since we were all at the symphony) so the police gained entry to the house
and searched it. Finding no one, they finally left.

We had warned the Wessels that scientology would not believe Lara had
decided on her own to leave scientology, that they would believe she had
been coerced or forced in some way to leave. But even we were
flabbergasted that scientology was going this far. Lara and her father
went down to the police station and both made statements about what was
happening. Lara made it clear in her statement that she had spoken to us
of her own free will, that she had not been coerced in any way, and that
she had decided to leave scientology based purely on the information she
had received.

We all thought that would be the end of it, but we were wrong. The next
night, Friday night, Monica, Paul and I headed back to our hotel and Lara
and her parents all went to bed by 10:30. At about 11:30 Lara was awakened
by flashing lights shining through her bedroom window and the doorbell
ringing repeatedly. She was afraid it was an OSA helicopter coming to get
her and she ran upstairs to her parents' room for protection. She woke her
father, who went downstairs and discovered several police officers at the
front door.

The police said they had received an anonymous call that someone was being
held against their will in the house and they wanted to come in and check
it out. Lara's father said they were welcome to come in but said he
thought he knew what this was all about and explained to them about what
had been happening with Lara and scientology. Then he called Lara, who
came upstairs in her pajamas and told the police she was not being held
against her will, she loved her parents and was very glad they had helped
her get out of scientology. The police by now were angry about being
manipulated by scientology, and one of the officers told Lara's father
that if he had any more trouble from scientology he would see that the
offenders were arrested.

By now the entire Wessel family was astonished and alarmed at what
scientology was doing. Certainly Lara was seeing a side of scientology
that she had never seen before. We explained to them that it is literally
impossible for a scientologist to accept the fact that someone might make
an informed choice to leave scientology. A scientologist firmly believes
that the only way someone in Lara's position would leave scientology would
be if they were forced to do so by being handcuffed, gagged and held
against their will. So these people who were orchestrating all of these
incidents truly believed they were trying to help Lara escape from the
clutches of evil forcible deprogrammers. The family just shook their heads
in amazement.

Saturday Monica and Paul left, and Lara and I had a relaxing day. We had
lunch at the House of Blues and she showed me a little bit of New Orleans.
Then we headed back to my hotel room so she could watch a couple of videos
that she hadn't had a chance to see yet. About 8:30 that night there was a
loud knocking at my hotel room door. I opened it and there stood two
heavy-set women, looking very serious. One of them pushed past me and
elbowed her way through the doorway, saying, "We're here to see Lara
Wessel. Where is she?"

Lara and I looked at each other in disbelief. More scientologists! Not
wanting to be rude, I invited the women into the room and introduced Lara
and myself. The two women looked surprised at my invitation but they came
into the room, obviously uncomfortable. I asked them their names. "Mary,"
the dark-haired woman said. "Tracy," said the blond one. "No last names?"
I asked. Tracy said, "You don't need to know our last names."

I invited them to sit down on the bed, which they did, and we all sat
around chatting for quite a long time. Lara told them what had happened -
that she had gotten information about scientology that she hadn't had
before and based on that information, she had decided she would rather not
be involved in it. This was completely unacceptable to Mary and Tracy.
Didn't Lara realize that everything someone like me would tell her was a
lie? Lara told them she didn't think any of us had lied to her, and she
urged them to get the same information themselves. "I don't want to hear
her lies," Tracy said in disgust.

I was able to find out that they were both public scientologists on lines
at the Baton Rouge Mission. I explained to them that at their echelon they
wouldn't know about the kinds of experiences I had at the upper echelons
of scientology management, and that much of what I had seen had caused me
to realize scientology was not what I had thought it was.

Tracy turned to Lara and, incredibly, said, "But look, what if you were a
Catholic and you found out the Pope was banging some nun at a convent?
That wouldn't keep you from being a devout Catholic and having the
benefits of Catholicism, would it? Well, it doesn't matter what's going on
in scientology management. You can still have wins and get up the Bridge
to Total Freedom. What difference does it make to you and your life what
management is doing?"

Lara and I were both speechless for a moment at this candid outburst. I
recovered first and said, "Tracy, as a devout Catholic, wouldn't you feel
some responsibility for at least making it known to the Pope that you
didn't approve of his conduct? Wouldn't you feel it was awfully
hypocritical of the Pope to bang this nun while insisting that all the
Catholics in the world respect the sanctity of marriage? I personally felt
that if the leadership of scientology was as corrupt as I discovered them
to be, I couldn't condone their behavior by continuing to be a
scientologist."

Tracy obviously felt she had made a blunder with her analogy of the Pope
and the nun. She tried to change the subject back to my lack of
credibility, but Lara interrupted her.

"I don't think you realize," Lara said, "that you aren't the only ones who
have been to see me and my family." She detailed all of the events of the
past several days, including the police and the flashing lights, the
sirens, being awakened at nearly midnight, how it had really frightened
her and her family. "At this point I have to tell you that you're
inadvertently involving yourselves in a pattern of harassment and invasion
of my and my family's privacy."

At this the two women glanced at each other uneasily, and then they both
stood up.

"It was very kind of you to invite us into your room," Tracy said. "I
think it's time for us to be going now."

Mary asked if we would be willing to watch a video with their side of the
story. We both said absolutely, we would watch it. She said she'd get it
to us, and then they left.

The next morning it was time to say goodbye. It was a sad parting, because
Lara and I had gotten to be good friends. But we promised to get together
again soon.

A production crew for a Swedish TV station had asked me to meet them in
Washington, D.C., for an interview, so I caught a plane to D.C. The New
Orleans trip had been emotionally draining for me. Settling into my seat
on the plane, I was suddenly exhausted. I looked forward to a relaxing
evening at my hotel.

But this was not to be. When I got off the plane in D.C., I saw Sylvia
Stanard from OSA's D.C. Office of Public Affairs walking toward me. Sylvia
and I have known each other since the late 1970s.

"Sylvia!" I said as she approached me. "What are you doing meeting me at
the airport?"

"Well," she replied, "I hear you're in the business of forcible
deprogrammings now, Stacy. I just want to make sure you aren't planning to
kidnap any of my staff."

I could see that she was dead serious, and I couldn't believe it.

"What are you doing in D.C. if you're not here to deprogram someone?" she
asked me. I told her I was there to be interviewed for Swedish TV, but she
didn't believe me.

"Why would they want to interview you? You don't know anything about the
situation in Sweden," she said, eyeing me skeptically. "No, that's not
what you're here for."

I tried to tell her that all I had done in New Orleans was to give Lara
information with which she then made her own decision. But it soon became
clear to me that Sylvia was not going to believe me no matter what I said.
In her mind, I was now a forcible deprogrammer and that was that.

Then she changed the subject. She wanted to know what happened that got me
out of scientology, so I invited her to ride with me to my hotel. I told
her the whole story of Vaughn getting beaten up by Norman Starkey, and how
Marion Dendiu, then the Org Officer at ASI, had taken Vaughn to her office
and assigned him lower conditions for upsetting Norman so badly that he
lost his temper.

But Sylvia clearly thought I was lying to her. By the time we got to my
hotel room she was back to worrying that I was going to kidnap her staff
and deprogram them.

"Stacy," she said, "I want you to look me straight in the eye and promise
me that you won't kidnap anyone while you're here."

I got so exasperated with her that I called Lara and asked her to tell
Sylvia herself what had happened in New Orleans. Sylvia and Lara chatted
for about fifteen minutes, while I unpacked my suitcase. Sylvia seemed
surprised that I didn't mind her talking to Lara, but my feeling was, why
not? Maybe something either Lara or I said to Sylvia might get through to
her and get her thinking. There is always that hope.

Sylvia and I parted cordially that evening, and Sylvia said she'd like to
get together with me while I was in D.C. I said that sounded fine. But as
it turned out, it was not to be.

The next day I met Joachim and Phillip, the Swedish TV crew. They filmed
an interview with me in the lobby of the Renaissance Hotel, and afterwards
we sat in the hotel restaurant for lunch. Soon after we ordered, Sue
Taylor and Alex Jones from OSA DC appeared at our table and began
harassing us. Phillip picked up his camera and began filming the whole
thing, of course. I was amazed that Sue was so rude to Joachim even though
she knew she was being filmed and that it would appear on national
television in Sweden.

We finally persuaded them to leave so we could eat lunch, but ten minutes
later Sue, Alex and Sylvia all came back to our table. They were totally
in our face and it was impossible to eat our lunch. I excused myself and
went and asked hotel security to escort them out as they were harassing
us. I returned to the table and sat down, and pretty soon security arrived
and said quietly to Sue Taylor, "If you don't leave immediately on your
own, I will have to help you leave," whereupon they all filed out of the
hotel.

Bob Minton had to come down to D.C. on other business, and I had never
actually met Arnie Lerma in person, so Bob took us both out on Tuesday
evening for a nice dinner so we could finally meet each other. We were
having a wonderful time when suddenly Matt Baraschi, one of OSA's more
boorish operatives, appeared at our table and began snapping photos of us.
It was incredibly offensive. I got up and convinced Matt to sit down next
to Bob so I could take their photo together. He handed me his camera, and
I immediately handed it to the maitre d', who turned around and took it
into the kitchen to dispose of it. Matt jumped up and ran after him into
the kitchen, creating an unbelievable scene in the restaurant. He soon
emerged with his camera and stormed out, after accusing me of theft.

Finally my trip was at an end. All of the confrontation with the
scientologists had been exhausting for me. I fell asleep as soon as the
plane took off and didn't wake up until the pilot announced we were about
to land in Seattle. I was really looking forward to getting home and
relaxing. I walked off the plane and into the terminal. The first person I
saw was Vaughn, and the next thing I knew Ann Ruble, the DSA Seattle, was
coming between Vaughn and me so that it was impossible for me to say hello
to him. She had a man with her named Larry something -- I missed his last
name. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was. I couldn't
believe they were there. Now I realized that I was virtually being stalked
all the way across the country. They knew what flights I was on; they knew
what hotels I was staying at, even what hotel rooms. It was unnerving to
realize I was being watched so closely by these people.

"Stacy," Ann said, "Sylvia called me and said you promised her you would
call her and let her know before you deprogrammed any of her staff in D.C.
I just want you to promise me the same thing here in Seattle."

These people had caught Vaughn off guard. He hadn't realized they were
scientologists at first, but when he did, it made him furious. He wanted
to call airport security and have them escorted out. I convinced him to
let me speak to Ann for a few minutes but she was actually quite rude and
was clearly there only to harass me and try to frighten me.

She said, "Stacy, you know who Rick Ross is, don't you? You don't want the
same thing to happen to you here in Washington, do you?"

Vaughn heard this and asked her if she was the one who supervised the
leafleting of the town of Vashon with hate literature about us, or if she
was the one who ordered our dog kidnapped and beaten almost to death. She
denied any knowledge of those things, and even denied knowing who private
investigator David Lee is.

In fact, it is possible that she really hasn't been in charge the
harassment we have been subjected to, and that she hasn't been kept
informed other than what she has read in the local newspaper. It has
probably all been run directly from Los Angeles. I don't think Ann would
have the stomach for the dirty tricks they've run on us, certainly I don't
think she would condone torturing our dog Mac. She is basically a caring
person who thinks she is helping people by her involvement in scientology.
She is just a dupe.

Lara Wessel, in the meantime, is thrilled to have her life back. She is
looking forward to getting her acting career back on track. She is happy
to be able to have all of her old friends back. She is educating herself
about mind control so she won't ever be taken in again. She is greatly
relieved to be in control of her own thoughts again.

After this experience it is more clear to me than ever that freedom of
speech and freedom of thought are the mortal enemies of totalitarianism.
No wonder scientology is out to destroy the Internet. No totalitarian
system of government can survive the free flow of information. No wonder
scientology is so afraid that one of their members might sit down and have
a conversation with me. God forbid a scientologist gains access to
information that is not under the control of the organization. God forbid
scientologists begin to exercise their inalienable rights of free speech,
free thought and free association.

I hope I have many more opportunities to sit and talk with scientologists.
I would be more than happy to share my experiences and insights with any
scientologist who is interested in what I have to say. I can be reached at
206-463-6809. Feel free to call any time of the day or night.

Stacy Young

LilAlex742

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May 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/19/98
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Thany you very much for posting this.


LilAlex

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
--philip k. dick

bc

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May 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/19/98
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 19 May 1998 21:08:28 GMT, st...@ptinet.net (Stacy Young)
brewed up the following, and served it to the group:

<snipped>

>Does this qualify as "deprogramming" at all, much less "forcible
>deprogramming"? I certainly don't think so. Personally, I would
describe
>it as a conversation between two adults exercising their rights of
free
>speech and free thought. But let me tell you the whole story of
what has
>caused OSA to be so afraid of me, and then all of you -
scientologists and
>non-scientologists alike - can decide for yourselves.

<snipped a wonderful story--strictly for bandwidth, ya know...>

Stacy, thank you for posting this.

Free speech and free thought--these are the most powerful weapons
against the cult. That was truly a magnificent, moving account.

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--------
"...she hates her life and what she's done to it
There's one more kid that'll never go to school
Never get to fall in love, never get to be cool"
--Neil Young

the above e-mail address remains fictional.
the real one is bc9424@spamTHIS!.concentric.net (if you remove spamTHIS!.)
*SP2(:)* KoX
...bc...

Tilman Hausherr

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May 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/19/98
to

Immediately report to ARS-CC and receive a clam cluster in gold!

(Plus a J&D silver ring for the trick with the "disposable" camera)


I'd wish that this story would be webbed with little cartoons :-)

Anne

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May 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/19/98
to

Tilman Hausherr <til...@berlin.snafu.de> wrote:
: Immediately report to ARS-CC and receive a clam cluster in gold!

: (Plus a J&D silver ring for the trick with the "disposable" camera)


: I'd wish that this story would be webbed with little cartoons :-)

And I wish this story could be printed in every major newspaper
and magazine in the world!

Anne ...... anne...@panix.com

Dick Cleek

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May 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/19/98
to

Anne wrote:

> And I wish this story could be printed in every major newspaper
> and magazine in the world!

Great idea and you can help get it there. Simply use your web browser to
go to

http://www.mediainfo.com/emedia/

which is a hotlinked list of newspapers

find one you like and find the email contact address
copy and paste that address into the to: field that
you pull up as you send Stacy's article

If enough of us do that we'll get a hit somewhere and get
this published.... it has happened more than once on ars.

______________
Dick Cleek


Wolf

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May 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/19/98
to

Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
to follow Mr. Young around. Trash writing. Paranoid ravings of a
lunatic. All followed by the applause of harmonious follow up admiration
of his fellow brain-washed ARS cultists.

The only problem with this little fiction is Young shouldn't count on
selling the movie rights, it's a real snoozer. I give it a one popcorn
bag rating at best.

Wolf

Anne wrote:
>
> Tilman Hausherr <til...@berlin.snafu.de> wrote:
> : Immediately report to ARS-CC and receive a clam cluster in gold!
>
> : (Plus a J&D silver ring for the trick with the "disposable" camera)
>
> : I'd wish that this story would be webbed with little cartoons :-)
>

> And I wish this story could be printed in every major newspaper
> and magazine in the world!
>

> Anne ...... anne...@panix.com


Unit 61

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May 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/19/98
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Stacy Young wrote:
>
> Scientology is spreading the word far and wide through its Office of
> Special Affairs network that I have gone into the business of forcible
> deprogramming. During the past two weeks, OSA operatives have literally
> stalked me across the country. They have known my travel plans and have met
> my flights at various airports. They've known where I was staying and have
> showed up at my hotel rooms. They have harassed me while I was having
> lunch, and they have interrupted me at dinner to take my photograph.

Great story. Thanks for posting.

John

Martin Hunt

unread,
May 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/19/98
to

In article <3561f49...@news.ptinet.net>,
st...@ptinet.net (Stacy Young) wrote:

>I've just spent several days in New Orleans with a wonderful family, the
>Wessels. Their 27-year-old daughter Lara was recruited into scientology
>about a year ago, and her family watched with alarm as their loving,
>vivacious daughter's life was gradually enveloped by scientology.

[account of an exit-counselling]

You do good work, Stacy.

>Tracy turned to Lara and, incredibly, said, "But look, what if you were a
>Catholic and you found out the Pope was banging some nun at a convent?
>That wouldn't keep you from being a devout Catholic and having the
>benefits of Catholicism, would it? Well, it doesn't matter what's going on
>in scientology management. You can still have wins and get up the Bridge
>to Total Freedom. What difference does it make to you and your life what
>management is doing?"

Wow; the walls are cracking there. Wouldn't surprise me if this
"Tracy", public Scientologist, soons leaves the cult.

>I hope I have many more opportunities to sit and talk with scientologists.
>I would be more than happy to share my experiences and insights with any
>scientologist who is interested in what I have to say. I can be reached at
>206-463-6809. Feel free to call any time of the day or night.
>
>Stacy Young

Those who call are in good hands. Thank you for posting the exit
counselling. I guess you're target #1 now, a deadly "deprogrammer",
to be hounded at every turn. Still, your account left me feeling
sorry for the deluded OSA staff more than angry at them. I'll
reserve the anger for David Miscavige and the other goons at the
top, who are orchestrating all this harassment of you.

--
Cogito, ergo sum. http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~av282/
"If you mention the Holocaust one more time I'm going to break your
face in." - Scientology whore Sandy Rosen to Graham Berry at the
Keith Henson trial.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.


Martin Hunt

unread,
May 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/19/98
to

In article <356216...@micron.net>, Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> wrote:

>Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
>to follow Mr. Young around.

Stacy's very much a woman.

>Trash writing.

I see that.

>Paranoid ravings of a lunatic.

Psychs can help you with that.

Wolf

unread,
May 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/19/98
to

LilAlex742 wrote:

>
> Wolfy writes:
>
> >Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
> >to follow Mr. Young around.
>
> Okay. Your snide AND you can't read. Is that it?
>
> LilAlex

Aw c'mon LilAlex... I'm justing having fun at the expense of anyone
dense enough to write such schmaltz and even more fun at the expense of
those who blather acceptance of it as if spoken from the very mouth of
God.

And I can read, you can't spell... 'your' is a possesive, 'you're' is a
contraction of 'you are'. Duh... I year ago I didn't know what
super-literate was and now I are one!

Wolf


Starshadow

unread,
May 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/19/98
to

Thank you so much for this very moving post. And thanks for giving a
person back her life.


--
Bright Blessings,


Starshadow SP4, Granny Dyke

LilAlex742

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Wolfy writes:

>Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
>to follow Mr. Young around.

Okay. Your snide AND you can't read. Is that it?


LilAlex

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
--philip k. dick

JimDBB

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

>Subject: One less scientologist in the world
>From: st...@ptinet.net (Stacy Young)
>Date: Tue, May 19, 1998 17:08 EDT

Thanks, Stacy, for this powerful and important post.

JimDBB

Feadog

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

>...

> I sat down with a young scientologist and told her about my own firsthand
> experiences in scientology. I gave her some information. That's all I
did.
> After she had received the information, she decided she didn't want to be
> in scientology any more. No force, no violence, no coercion. Just a free
> flow of information. Freedom of choice...

Way to go Stacy.

Feadog
--
Critical Scientology Links:
http://www.xenu.net/, http://www.primenet.com/~cultxpt/lisa.htm
Boston Herald - Series on Scientology; March 1998 (link may expire soon):
http://www.bostonherald.com/scientology/


Just Wog

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

On Tue, 19 May 1998 19:47:06 -0700, Unit 61 <zjohzn...@ezxeczpc.com> wrote:

:Stacy Young wrote:
:>
:> Scientology is spreading the word far and wide through its Office of


:> Special Affairs network that I have gone into the business of forcible
:> deprogramming. During the past two weeks, OSA operatives have literally
:> stalked me across the country. They have known my travel plans and have met
:> my flights at various airports. They've known where I was staying and have
:> showed up at my hotel rooms. They have harassed me while I was having
:> lunch, and they have interrupted me at dinner to take my photograph.

:
:Great story. Thanks for posting.
:
:John

My server has been having problems the last few days, would some please repost
Stacy's *great story*.... pleeeaaasse.

TIA

Bob, just Wog

Ted Mayett (KOX)

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

>loud knocking at my hotel room door. I opened it and there stood two
>heavy-set women, looking very serious. One of them pushed past me and
>elbowed her way through the doorway, saying, "We're here to see Lara
>Wessel. Where is she?"
>

>


>I was able to find out that they were both public scientologists on lines
>at the Baton Rouge Mission.

I'm wondering if maybe they only claimed to be Public for legal
reasons. It certainly seems that Staff or OSA would be used to bother
visitors in their hotel rooms. It seems odd that they were Public.
We are not talking about handing out OCA's on a street corner to save
the planet here, we're not even talking about selling DMSMH in a
supermarket parking lot. What was described here were "Public"
sophisticated enough to not give their full names when requested.
If they were Public, then they have previously done their time on
Staff in the past. IMO.

Or, are there so few staff there, or are the staff of such a low
quality that Public were sent?


--
Ted Mayett OT 1.1
http://xenu.phys.uit.no/cgi-bin/globloc.cgi

Catarina Pamnell

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Thank you.


Catarina


-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

Wolf

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Martin Hunt wrote:
>
> In article <356216...@micron.net>, Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> wrote:
>
> >Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
> >to follow Mr. Young around.
>
> Stacy's very much a woman.

So sue me.

> >Trash writing.
>
> I see that.
>
> >Paranoid ravings of a lunatic.
>
> Psychs can help you with that.

Martin... I used to just think you were stupid. Now I think you're
really stupid. You need to go back to your starving beans&rice
melodrama, it suits you much better. It's much simpler and easier for a
weak mind to comprehend that than it is to see that the Lara Wessel
story is just another brainwashing. Matters not whether CofS is doing it
or some nosey broad from Seattle is - the effects are the same.

Wolf


LilAlex742

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Wolfy points out:

>And I can read, you can't spell... 'your' is a possesive, 'you're' is a
>contraction of 'you are'. Duh... I year ago I didn't know what
>super-literate was and now I are one!

Caught me. Sorry. I do understand grammar, by the way. I am, however,
dyslexic, and often make similar blunders. I used to have real problems with
mixing up the letters D, P, and B, along with rearranging syllables. Now, my
mistakes are generally limited to the kind of homophone faux pa you pointed out
above. For some reason, its easy for me to find mistakes when proofing on
paper, and a little more difficult on the computer screen. Also, the
informality of a newsgroup tends to make me lax. I do try, but I've got faulty
wiring, and things sometimes come out wrong.

Since you have been kind enough to point out my spelling error, I thought that
I might, in the spirit of mutual self-betterment, point out yours. "possesive"
(sic) is actually spelled "possessive." Note the fourth "s." Also, in another


section of your reply, you wrote:

>Aw c'mon LilAlex... I'm justing having fun at the expense of anyone
>dense enough to write such schmaltz and even more fun at the expense of
>those who blather acceptance of it as if spoken from the very mouth of
>God.

I assume that you mistakenly added the suffix "ing" to the adverb "just"
because of your own faulty wiring, and not out of some ill-formed desire to
make a paronomasia with an obsolete variant of the word "joust."


So anyway, there's my explanation of my faults. Let's get back to you and your
reading comprehension skills.

PS I like schmaltz.

LilAlex


You write a swell letter. Glad somebody spells worse than I do.

Earnest Hemingway, in a letter to F. Scott Fitzgerald--24 Dec. 1925

LilAlex742

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

PPS (to Wolf)

AND by faux pa, I really did mean "false father," and not, faux pas, "false
step."

Well, okay. Maybe not. Maybe it was--gasp--a faux pas "faux pas."
Never thought I'd get to say that! It was worth making the gaff.

Pign...@worldnet.att.net

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

te...@skylink.net (Ted Mayett (KOX)) writes: >
>
> I'm wondering if maybe they only claimed to be Public for legal
> reasons. It certainly seems that Staff or OSA would be used to bother
> visitors in their hotel rooms. It seems odd that they were Public.
> We are not talking about handing out OCA's on a street corner to save
> the planet here, we're not even talking about selling DMSMH in a
> supermarket parking lot. What was described here were "Public"
> sophisticated enough to not give their full names when requested.
> If they were Public, then they have previously done their time on
> Staff in the past. IMO.
>
> Or, are there so few staff there, or are the staff of such a low
> quality that Public were sent?

Baton Rouge is a small org and OSA has been known to use public
on several occasions that I am aware of.

Monica Pignotti


Pign...@worldnet.att.net

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> writes: >
>Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
> to follow Mr. Young around. Trash writing. Paranoid ravings of a
> lunatic. All followed by the applause of harmonious follow up admiration
> of his fellow brain-washed ARS cultists.
>
> The only problem with this little fiction is Young shouldn't count on
> selling the movie rights, it's a real snoozer. I give it a one popcorn
> bag rating at best.
>
If you'd take the trouble to read what Stacy actually wrote,
you'd see that Lara thought there were OSA helecoopters out
there, not that there were. OSA sent their people straight to
the family's doorstep who had driven all the way to New Orleans
from Baton Rouge.

As the person who organized this whole operation (on the
exit counseling side, that is) I can tell you that this was
no fiction. I was there, as were several members of the family
who are witnesses to Stacy's account, which is 100% accurate. The
Swedish reporters were even witnesses to what went on in Washington DC,
where OSA made total fools of themselves with their harrassment,
ranting and raving and attempts to disrupt the interview in the
restaurant.

Lara filed a report with the New Orleans Police department stating
that she was never at any time held against her will. I might add
that prior to this intervention, the family signed a form stating
that they agreed to my terms that there was never at tny time to be
any force used to hold her and that if there was, I would no longer
agree to be involved.

The police dept. and the New Orleans DA fortunately didn't share
your disbelief and were very supportive. The New Orleans Police
Dept. takes false 911 calls very seriously, since they were falsely
called out to the family's home on two occasions because of 911 calls
saying that someone was committing suicide and that someone was being
held against her will. What the people on ARS are too intelligent
to take seriously is your trolling.

Monica Pignotti


LilAlex742

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Chris sez about something I said:

>: PS I like schmaltz.
>
>I don't. Too much foam and the can's a pain to open. I'll take a box o'
>YooHoo instead, any day.

ROTFL.

Also:

> I've fixed my copy of Microsoft word to look for my commoner
>mistakes though, which can come in handy. I seem to blow it on the same
>words all the time.

What do you do? Have it word search common homophone errors? I sometimes
think about doing that..

Also, if you get a near a copy of WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH USAGE read
the article on spelling. It will warm the heart of any dyslexic who has worked
hard to not stand out. It includes such pearls as...

begin quote

...quite a few usage commentators have been fond of belittling their
correspondents (the ones who disagree with them) and others on the basis of bad
spelling. But bad spelling is a flimsy basis for belittling anyone; you can
see that the literary reputations of Fitzgerald and Hemigway have not suffered
noticeably by their personal dificulties with English orthography.

end quote

P&Med

john smith

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

In article <35627A...@micron.net>, wolf...@micron.net wrote:
>Martin Hunt wrote:
>>
>> In article <356216...@micron.net>, Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
>> >to follow Mr. Young around.
>>
>> Stacy's very much a woman.
>
>So sue me.
>
>> >Trash writing.
>>
>> I see that.
>>
>> >Paranoid ravings of a lunatic.
>>
>> Psychs can help you with that.
>
>Martin... I used to just think you were stupid. Now I think you're
>really stupid. You need to go back to your starving beans&rice
>melodrama, it suits you much better. It's much simpler and easier for a
>weak mind to comprehend that than it is to see that the Lara Wessel
>story is just another brainwashing. Matters not whether CofS is doing it
>or some nosey broad from Seattle is - the effects are the same.
>
>Wolf
>
You mean it takes years for Scientology to brainwash someone, but Stacy can do
it over the course of dinner? Man, Scientology really IS behind in the Tek
War...

Scott A. McClare

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> writes:

>Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands

> to follow Mr. Young around. Trash writing. Paranoid ravings of a
> lunatic. All followed by the applause of harmonious follow up admiration
> of his fellow brain-washed ARS cultists.

ONE of the people Stacy was writing ABOUT was worried about "OSA
helicopters," and you use THAT as an excuse to "discredit" the entire
story.

So, on the one hand, we have a post by Stacy Young, a generally credible
person, which was (your claim of "trash writing" notwithstanding)
well-written and didn't say anything far-fetched.

On the other hand, we have you, who seems to have a problem with reading
comprehension.

Whom to believe????

> The only problem with this little fiction is Young shouldn't count on
> selling the movie rights, it's a real snoozer. I give it a one popcorn
> bag rating at best.

Why should give a crap what YOU think of Stacy's post? So far, I've seen
nothing from you except for the same tired macros the lying criminal cult
drags out to discredit stories like this.

Scott

--
Scott A. McClare SP4 GGBC#42 "I see you now and then in dreams
cj...@freenet.carleton.ca Your voice sounds just like it used to
http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~cj871/ I believe I will hear it again
PGP 1024/E7950B29 via finger/keyserver God how I love you" - Mark Heard

Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

In article <35627A...@micron.net>, Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> writes

>Martin Hunt wrote:
>>
>> In article <356216...@micron.net>, Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
>> >to follow Mr. Young around.
>>
>> Stacy's very much a woman.
>
>So sue me.
>
>> >Trash writing.
>>
>> I see that.
>>
>> >Paranoid ravings of a lunatic.
>>
>> Psychs can help you with that.
>
>Martin... I used to just think you were stupid.

And you think we set any store by your opinion?

--
<__"-$ <__" <__" <__"
:_ :_ :_ :_
-------------------------------- <__'
'. $CIENTOLOGY: ...__''--- :.
; . ''''''''
. . ' ': ': ':
: .' the bridge to .~~>~~> ~~>
:.' total madness ~~> ~~>

Wolf

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

LilAlex742 wrote:
>
> Since you have been kind enough to point out my spelling error, I thought that
> I might, in the spirit of mutual self-betterment, point out yours. "possesive"
> (sic) is actually spelled "possessive." Note the fourth "s."

Yep. You are absolutely correct. I never pick on anyone until they start
in on me. But I can see that you're much quicker than me at this, so I
concede.

> Also, in another
> section of your reply, you wrote:

> >Aw c'mon LilAlex... I'm justing having fun at the expense of anyone
> >dense enough to write such schmaltz and even more fun at the expense of
> >those who blather acceptance of it as if spoken from the very mouth of
> >God.
>
> I assume that you mistakenly added the suffix "ing" to the adverb "just"
> because of your own faulty wiring, and not out of some ill-formed desire to
> make a paronomasia with an obsolete variant of the word "joust."

Wow. Like I said... I concede. You win. I'll buy the beer.

Wolf

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Scott A. McClare wrote:

>
> Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> writes:
>
> >Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
> > to follow Mr. Young around. Trash writing. Paranoid ravings of a
> > lunatic. All followed by the applause of harmonious follow up admiration
> > of his fellow brain-washed ARS cultists.
>
> ONE of the people Stacy was writing ABOUT was worried about "OSA
> helicopters," and you use THAT as an excuse to "discredit" the entire
> story.

Nah. That happened to be the only part that was actually interesting. It
reveals much about the actual mental state of the young lady... of
course Ms. Young would never give an account of the story that cast any
unfavorable light on her gallant efforts.

> So, on the one hand, we have a post by Stacy Young, a generally credible
> person, which was (your claim of "trash writing" notwithstanding)
> well-written and didn't say anything far-fetched.

You ARS culties are amazing little nuggets of wishy-washy mental
fortitude. With all the hatred and the sheer volume of your rancor
towards the horror of Scientology, it's revealing that your opinion
leaders are all ex-Scientologists. But, the significance of that may be
way too subtle for most of the reactionaries in your cult.

> Whom to believe????

I dunno. Why believe anyone? Why not examine your own hidden beliefs and
see if they're based on your precious facts or if you've been snowed.



> > The only problem with this little fiction is Young shouldn't count on
> > selling the movie rights, it's a real snoozer. I give it a one popcorn
> > bag rating at best.
>
> Why should give a crap what YOU think of Stacy's post? So far, I've seen
> nothing from you except for the same tired macros the lying criminal cult
> drags out to discredit stories like this.

One of the nice things about ARS is this: though ARS cultists dominate
the ng in sheer volume, there are many lurkers who read and never post.
I get frequent emails from those who have open minds and are not 'set'
one way or the other. Since I happen to know more about what really goes
in in Scientology than you or 95% of the other androids who have been
brainwashed by the clam-meme, I consider it my duty to bust your chops
from time to time with a dose of reality.

In short, it doesn't matter what you think about what I think Scott.
You're as sold on this NG cult as any Scientologist is on LRH's glorious
wisdom. Sort of like a reverse Scientologist, eh?

Wolf

Wolf

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Pign...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>
> Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> writes: >
> >Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
> > to follow Mr. Young around. Trash writing. Paranoid ravings of a
> > lunatic. All followed by the applause of harmonious follow up admiration
> > of his fellow brain-washed ARS cultists.
> >
> > The only problem with this little fiction is Young shouldn't count on
> > selling the movie rights, it's a real snoozer. I give it a one popcorn
> > bag rating at best.
> >
> If you'd take the trouble to read what Stacy actually wrote,
> you'd see that Lara thought there were OSA helecoopters out
> there, not that there were.

Sheesh Monica! I know that. You ex-Scientologists don't have much humour
left do you?

>OSA sent their people straight to
> the family's doorstep who had driven all the way to New Orleans
> from Baton Rouge.

So? That's what Ms. Young sez. She was a Scientologist and any good ARS
cultist knows you can't trust one of those devils.

> As the person who organized this whole operation (on the
> exit counseling side, that is) I can tell you that this was
> no fiction. I was there, as were several members of the family
> who are witnesses to Stacy's account, which is 100% accurate.

Nothing is 100% accurate. Stacy reported her experience in such a manner
as to support her view that Scientology is brainwashing. Anything else
she edited out. I assume that's how you handle your stat reports to
Minton as well.

>The
> Swedish reporters were even witnesses to what went on in Washington DC,
> where OSA made total fools of themselves with their harrassment,
> ranting and raving and attempts to disrupt the interview in the
> restaurant.

Okay. If I relied on what someone else (with a vested interest
emotionally and financially) says about an incident then I'd probably
still be making ap's to Flag. The entire story was written from the pov
of victimization. Whether Stacy had any part in inciting or adding heat
to events to build emotion remains to be seen. There ain't no such thing
as a one-sided argument.

> Lara filed a report with the New Orleans Police department stating
> that she was never at any time held against her will. I might add
> that prior to this intervention, the family signed a form stating
> that they agreed to my terms that there was never at tny time to be
> any force used to hold her and that if there was, I would no longer
> agree to be involved.

I'm sure she did. I'm sure you did. It adds depth to the event. CYA.

> The police dept. and the New Orleans DA fortunately didn't share
> your disbelief and were very supportive. The New Orleans Police
> Dept. takes false 911 calls very seriously, since they were falsely
> called out to the family's home on two occasions because of 911 calls
> saying that someone was committing suicide and that someone was being
> held against her will. What the people on ARS are too intelligent
> to take seriously is your trolling.

How do I know that Stacy didn't make the calls? Why shouldn't she? It's
certainly go a long way towards adding credibility to her story of how
horrible the Scientologists are. The whole story is mere drama. Nobody
on ARS really knows what happened. What was the real state of mind of
this Lara, especially in light of her helicopter paranoia? Anybody can
write whatever they want and color it how they please. What I can easily
see is that Stacy is being financed by Minton. She's obliged to make her
boss feel like he's getting his money's worth. Beyond that, nothing else
is what it seems.

Wolf

Wolf

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

john smith wrote:
>
> >> In article <356216...@micron.net>, Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> wrote:

> >Martin... I used to just think you were stupid. Now I think you're
> >really stupid. You need to go back to your starving beans&rice
> >melodrama, it suits you much better. It's much simpler and easier for a
> >weak mind to comprehend that than it is to see that the Lara Wessel
> >story is just another brainwashing. Matters not whether CofS is doing it
> >or some nosey broad from Seattle is - the effects are the same.
> >
> >Wolf
> >
> You mean it takes years for Scientology to brainwash someone, but Stacy can do
> it over the course of dinner? Man, Scientology really IS behind in the Tek
> War...

I'll let you in on the big secret John. Neither CofS nor the busybodies
from Seattle are *brainwashing* anybody. There ain't no war. It's about
as complex as deciding which underwear to buy. Stacy bought Scientology
underwear for years. Now it itches. So instead of just switching brands
she feels compelled to go around 'deprogramming' other purchasers. It's
a curious manifestation of an affluent society. Hell... if Minton is
paying the freight, why not? It's better than getting a real job eh?
Plus it keeps one from the horror of facing the fact that they're the
ones who screwed up.... CofS is the perfect target for shirking
responsibility for ones own wasted years.

Wolf

Zinj

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

In article <199805201133...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
lilal...@aol.com says...


Just a question and a suggestion:

I'm not sure what Chris means by schmalz; I don't know it as a drink, but
rather pure lard that is used with various ingredients as a spread for on bread
or crackers. Probably the most common type is very simple, with tiny chunks of
onion fried in the schmalz itself. And no, it's not really as disgusting as it
sounds.. but close to it, and very very greasy.. your tongue feels coated long
after you've done eating.

As far as common homophone/spelling mistakes; The AP Stylebook and Libel Manual
is what I've seen most often used by professional reporters/editors, and it's
an excellent and inexpensive paperback usually available in college bookstores.

Most news organizations have their own supplemental additions, but the AP
manual is very thorough. It's also well organized, and is an entertaining
enough read to actually enjoy, unlike most reference books. It'd be nice if
they made an e-version, but I've never heard of one.

Zinj

--
Don't forget - Last Rat off the Ship Goes to Jail


Unit 61

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Stacy Young wrote:
>
> Scientology is spreading the word far and wide through its Office of
> Special Affairs network that I have gone into the business of forcible
> deprogramming. During the past two weeks, OSA operatives have literally
> stalked me across the country. They have known my travel plans and have met
> my flights at various airports. They've known where I was staying and have
> showed up at my hotel rooms. They have harassed me while I was having
> lunch, and they have interrupted me at dinner to take my photograph.
>
> The amazing thing is what I actually did to cause all of this commotion: I

> sat down with a young scientologist and told her about my own firsthand
> experiences in scientology. I gave her some information. That's all I did.
> After she had received the information, she decided she didn't want to be
> in scientology any more. No force, no violence, no coercion. Just a free
> flow of information. Freedom of choice.
>
> Does this qualify as "deprogramming" at all, much less "forcible
> deprogramming"? I certainly don't think so. Personally, I would describe
> it as a conversation between two adults exercising their rights of free
> speech and free thought. But let me tell you the whole story of what has
> caused OSA to be so afraid of me, and then all of you - scientologists and
> non-scientologists alike - can decide for yourselves.

>
> I've just spent several days in New Orleans with a wonderful family, the
> Wessels. Their 27-year-old daughter Lara was recruited into scientology
> about a year ago, and her family watched with alarm as their loving,
> vivacious daughter's life was gradually enveloped by scientology. She had
> been an aspiring, very talented actress, but once she got into scientology
> she dropped her acting career entirely. The family had been very close,
> but Lara had become distant. All she would talk about was scientology. Her
> family was afraid they were going to lose her forever.
>
> Lara's father Dave has some friends who were peripherally aware of a
> network of people who deal with the cult problem. He contacted several of
> his friends, who put him in contact with Monica Pignotti, an exit
> counselor in New York, and Paul Grosswald, a former scientologist from New
> York. Monica invited me to participate because she knew I had recently
> helped another young woman who had left scientology on her own but had
> been in really bad shape emotionally and psychologically by the time she
> left. I had flown to the east coast to spend some time with her, and I had
> been able to help her and her family simply because I have so much
> information about what goes on and how it works inside.
>
> So, after a long conversation with Lara's father Dave, he asked me to come
> down to New Orleans because he thought I might be able to contribute some
> useful information which Lara could use to make a decision about what she
> wanted to do.
>
> I arrived Tuesday (before Monica and Paul) and spent the evening with all
> of Lara's family - her parents, her sister and her family, her brother and
> his family, her aunt and uncle. It was very heartwarming to see how much
> Lara is loved by these people. She is so lucky to have a family that cares
> about her as much as they do. They had many, many questions for me, and I
> answered them as well as I could. Lara had been home for the New Orleans
> Jazzfest for nearly two weeks, and the whole family had been on pins and
> needles, trying not to antagonize her by showing any negative feelings
> about scientology. It had been exhausting for all of them.
>
> Lara had been vigorously trying to recruit her entire family into
> scientology ever since she'd been home, and everyone had been as polite in
> their refusal as possible. She wanted them all to take courses at the
> Baton Rouge mission, and she was sure that once they did a course they
> would see why she was ready to dedicate the next billion years as a member
> of scientology's elite Sea Organization. As horrified as the family was,
> they had tried hard not to show it. Instead, at every opportunity her
> brother Kris and her Aunt Shirley in particular had asked Lara if she
> would be willing to speak to anyone about another side of the scientology
> story. They told me Lara had said yes, she would. The family all agreed
> Lara had been an independent thinker all her life, and they hoped that
> that strength of hers would enable her to listen to legitimate
> information, even if it was negative about scientology.
>
> But now that the time had come, the family was extremely nervous and
> wanted to make sure they knew what to do. The plan was for her brother
> Kris and her Aunt Shirley, the two people she trusted the most, to take
> Lara out for lunch the next day and tell her that her father had invited
> some people to New Orleans who could give her some new information about
> scientology if she was willing to listen to them. The family was
> particularly worried about this step. What if she got angry and said no?
> What if it drove her further into scientology and made the situation
> worse?
>
> From what they had told me about Lara, it didn't sound like she would
> refuse. She loved her family enough to be willing to listen to another
> side of the story if it was clearly important to them that she do so. It
> also sounded as if she might already have begun to have doubts about her
> involvement. I had not yet met her, but I had the feeling she was quite
> strong-willed, with a mind of her own. I thought there was a good chance
> that Lara would agree to listen to what we had to say.
>
> By the end of the first evening the family was somewhat reassured, having
> realized that there was nothing mysterious in the least about what was
> about to happen. If Lara agreed to talk to us, we would provide her with
> information that she had not had access to as a scientologist, and with
> this information Lara would be in a position to make an informed choice
> about whether or not she wanted to continue her involvement in
> scientology. If she refused to talk to us, we would leave. It was as
> simple as that. But, I told them, I was confident that she would agree,
> perhaps out of a combination of love for her family and curiosity about
> what kind of information we might have.
>
> The next morning Monica and Paul arrived and we all met at the hotel while
> Lara met her brother and aunt for lunch. As the time approached for the
> meeting, we all piled in the car and drove to Lara's parents' house,
> where, we hoped, Lara would soon join us. We made small talk for a while,
> trying not to be nervous, but we all jumped when the phone finally rang.
> It was Lara's brother Kris. She had agreed to meet with us, and they were
> on their way. We all breathed a sigh of relief. The first big step had
> been made!
>
> Kris, Shirley and Lara arrived within a few minutes. Lara came right up
> to me, shook my hand, and said cordially, "Hi, I'm Lara. Nice to meet
> you." She did the same with Monica and Paul.
>
> I asked her if she was nervous, and she said, "Yes, I guess I am a little
> bit, but I'm interested in what you have to say. Let's get started."
>
> We began by introducing ourselves and telling Lara briefly about each of
> our histories in scientology. Monica had been in for six years, and she
> had been with Hubbard on the ship. Paul had only been in for six months,
> but he had joined the Sea Org in New York, where Lara had also joined, so
> they had had similar experiences and knew some of the same people. I had
> been in for fifteen years, at the Advanced Organization in Los Angeles and
> later in the Guardian's Office, Author Services, Inc., and the Office of
> Special Affairs.
>
> Monica and Paul told her about some of their experiences, and Lara's
> response was pretty much to say, "OK, but that kind of thing can happen
> anywhere. No organization is perfect. It doesn't change the fact that
> scientology helps a lot of people."
>
> I said, "That's true, and I used to feel exactly the same way. But I
> experienced some things that finally forced me to re-evaluate my
> relationship with scientology. I'd like to share those experiences with
> you so that you have a clear picture of the kind of organization you're
> involved in."
>
> Lara shrugged. "OK," she said. "I'm willing to hear what you have to say."
>
> I spent about 45 minutes telling her about some of the experiences I had
> in scientology. I told her that during all the years I was in scientology
> I had always believed that if I could only move high enough up in the
> ranks I would find scientology being practiced the way I thought it should
> be, based on the policies I had read. But then I got all the way to the
> top of the hierarchy, working directly with David Miscavige, and
> discovered that, if anything, it was worse all the way at the top than it
> had been lower down in the ranks. I told her about some of the things I
> saw Miscavige do to staff, some of the things he ordered me to do to staff
> which I refused to do, and I told her what happened that led me to refuse
> to work with him at all, for which I was sent to the RPF.
>
> When I was finished with my story, Lara decided she didn't want to be part
> of a group in which people were abused the way I was, and the way other
> people were that I described. That was literally all that happened. She
> was given some information that she had not had previously. Monica and
> Paul also gave her information, not only about their own experiences in
> scientology but also about mind control and how it works. And that was the
> extent of what happened that caused Lara Wessel to decide she no longer
> wanted to be a scientologist.
>
> Lara made her decision on Wednesday evening, May 6, the very first day we
> talked to her. The next day, Thursday, we were all over at her sister's
> house watching some videos of shows about scientology and mind control
> when her father arrived with the news that two scientologists had showed
> up at his house looking for Lara. He told them she had gone out of town
> for a few days, thinking that would cause them to go away. Of course, as
> we would soon find out, this just fueled their paranoia that Lara was
> being "forcibly deprogrammed."
>
> Thursday evening Lara's aunt surprised us all with tickets to the New
> Orleans symphony. The music was wonderful and we all enjoyed ourselves
> immensely, particularly Lara, who commented on how happy she was to have
> her life back. After the program we were supposed to meet Lara's brother
> and his wife for dinner. But when Lara called him he told her an
> incredible story.
>
> The New Orleans police and an ambulance had arrived at their parents'
> house, all lights flashing. The police had received an anonymous phone
> call that someone was committing suicide inside the house. No one was home
> (since we were all at the symphony) so the police gained entry to the house
> and searched it. Finding no one, they finally left.
>
> We had warned the Wessels that scientology would not believe Lara had
> decided on her own to leave scientology, that they would believe she had
> been coerced or forced in some way to leave. But even we were
> flabbergasted that scientology was going this far. Lara and her father
> went down to the police station and both made statements about what was
> happening. Lara made it clear in her statement that she had spoken to us
> of her own free will, that she had not been coerced in any way, and that
> she had decided to leave scientology based purely on the information she
> had received.
>
> We all thought that would be the end of it, but we were wrong. The next
> night, Friday night, Monica, Paul and I headed back to our hotel and Lara
> and her parents all went to bed by 10:30. At about 11:30 Lara was awakened
> by flashing lights shining through her bedroom window and the doorbell
> ringing repeatedly. She was afraid it was an OSA helicopter coming to get
> her and she ran upstairs to her parents' room for protection. She woke her
> father, who went downstairs and discovered several police officers at the
> front door.
>
> The police said they had received an anonymous call that someone was being
> held against their will in the house and they wanted to come in and check
> it out. Lara's father said they were welcome to come in but said he
> thought he knew what this was all about and explained to them about what
> had been happening with Lara and scientology. Then he called Lara, who
> came upstairs in her pajamas and told the police she was not being held
> against her will, she loved her parents and was very glad they had helped
> her get out of scientology. The police by now were angry about being
> manipulated by scientology, and one of the officers told Lara's father
> that if he had any more trouble from scientology he would see that the
> offenders were arrested.
>
> By now the entire Wessel family was astonished and alarmed at what
> scientology was doing. Certainly Lara was seeing a side of scientology
> that she had never seen before. We explained to them that it is literally
> impossible for a scientologist to accept the fact that someone might make
> an informed choice to leave scientology. A scientologist firmly believes
> that the only way someone in Lara's position would leave scientology would
> be if they were forced to do so by being handcuffed, gagged and held
> against their will. So these people who were orchestrating all of these
> incidents truly believed they were trying to help Lara escape from the
> clutches of evil forcible deprogrammers. The family just shook their heads
> in amazement.
>
> Saturday Monica and Paul left, and Lara and I had a relaxing day. We had
> lunch at the House of Blues and she showed me a little bit of New Orleans.
> Then we headed back to my hotel room so she could watch a couple of videos
> that she hadn't had a chance to see yet. About 8:30 that night there was a

> loud knocking at my hotel room door. I opened it and there stood two
> heavy-set women, looking very serious. One of them pushed past me and
> elbowed her way through the doorway, saying, "We're here to see Lara
> Wessel. Where is she?"
>
> Lara and I looked at each other in disbelief. More scientologists! Not
> wanting to be rude, I invited the women into the room and introduced Lara
> and myself. The two women looked surprised at my invitation but they came
> into the room, obviously uncomfortable. I asked them their names. "Mary,"
> the dark-haired woman said. "Tracy," said the blond one. "No last names?"
> I asked. Tracy said, "You don't need to know our last names."
>
> I invited them to sit down on the bed, which they did, and we all sat
> around chatting for quite a long time. Lara told them what had happened -
> that she had gotten information about scientology that she hadn't had
> before and based on that information, she had decided she would rather not
> be involved in it. This was completely unacceptable to Mary and Tracy.
> Didn't Lara realize that everything someone like me would tell her was a
> lie? Lara told them she didn't think any of us had lied to her, and she
> urged them to get the same information themselves. "I don't want to hear
> her lies," Tracy said in disgust.

>
> I was able to find out that they were both public scientologists on lines
> at the Baton Rouge Mission. I explained to them that at their echelon they
> wouldn't know about the kinds of experiences I had at the upper echelons
> of scientology management, and that much of what I had seen had caused me
> to realize scientology was not what I had thought it was.

>
> Tracy turned to Lara and, incredibly, said, "But look, what if you were a
> Catholic and you found out the Pope was banging some nun at a convent?
> That wouldn't keep you from being a devout Catholic and having the
> benefits of Catholicism, would it? Well, it doesn't matter what's going on
> in scientology management. You can still have wins and get up the Bridge
> to Total Freedom. What difference does it make to you and your life what
> management is doing?"
>
> Lara and I were both speechless for a moment at this candid outburst. I
> recovered first and said, "Tracy, as a devout Catholic, wouldn't you feel
> some responsibility for at least making it known to the Pope that you
> didn't approve of his conduct? Wouldn't you feel it was awfully
> hypocritical of the Pope to bang this nun while insisting that all the
> Catholics in the world respect the sanctity of marriage? I personally felt
> that if the leadership of scientology was as corrupt as I discovered them
> to be, I couldn't condone their behavior by continuing to be a
> scientologist."
>
> Tracy obviously felt she had made a blunder with her analogy of the Pope
> and the nun. She tried to change the subject back to my lack of
> credibility, but Lara interrupted her.
>
> "I don't think you realize," Lara said, "that you aren't the only ones who
> have been to see me and my family." She detailed all of the events of the
> past several days, including the police and the flashing lights, the
> sirens, being awakened at nearly midnight, how it had really frightened
> her and her family. "At this point I have to tell you that you're
> inadvertently involving yourselves in a pattern of harassment and invasion
> of my and my family's privacy."
>
> At this the two women glanced at each other uneasily, and then they both
> stood up.
>
> "It was very kind of you to invite us into your room," Tracy said. "I
> think it's time for us to be going now."
>
> Mary asked if we would be willing to watch a video with their side of the
> story. We both said absolutely, we would watch it. She said she'd get it
> to us, and then they left.
>
> The next morning it was time to say goodbye. It was a sad parting, because
> Lara and I had gotten to be good friends. But we promised to get together
> again soon.
>
> A production crew for a Swedish TV station had asked me to meet them in
> Washington, D.C., for an interview, so I caught a plane to D.C. The New
> Orleans trip had been emotionally draining for me. Settling into my seat
> on the plane, I was suddenly exhausted. I looked forward to a relaxing
> evening at my hotel.
>
> But this was not to be. When I got off the plane in D.C., I saw Sylvia
> Stanard from OSA's D.C. Office of Public Affairs walking toward me. Sylvia
> and I have known each other since the late 1970s.
>
> "Sylvia!" I said as she approached me. "What are you doing meeting me at
> the airport?"
>
> "Well," she replied, "I hear you're in the business of forcible
> deprogrammings now, Stacy. I just want to make sure you aren't planning to
> kidnap any of my staff."
>
> I could see that she was dead serious, and I couldn't believe it.
>
> "What are you doing in D.C. if you're not here to deprogram someone?" she
> asked me. I told her I was there to be interviewed for Swedish TV, but she
> didn't believe me.
>
> "Why would they want to interview you? You don't know anything about the
> situation in Sweden," she said, eyeing me skeptically. "No, that's not
> what you're here for."
>
> I tried to tell her that all I had done in New Orleans was to give Lara
> information with which she then made her own decision. But it soon became
> clear to me that Sylvia was not going to believe me no matter what I said.
> In her mind, I was now a forcible deprogrammer and that was that.
>
> Then she changed the subject. She wanted to know what happened that got me
> out of scientology, so I invited her to ride with me to my hotel. I told
> her the whole story of Vaughn getting beaten up by Norman Starkey, and how
> Marion Dendiu, then the Org Officer at ASI, had taken Vaughn to her office
> and assigned him lower conditions for upsetting Norman so badly that he
> lost his temper.
>
> But Sylvia clearly thought I was lying to her. By the time we got to my
> hotel room she was back to worrying that I was going to kidnap her staff
> and deprogram them.
>
> "Stacy," she said, "I want you to look me straight in the eye and promise
> me that you won't kidnap anyone while you're here."
>
> I got so exasperated with her that I called Lara and asked her to tell
> Sylvia herself what had happened in New Orleans. Sylvia and Lara chatted
> for about fifteen minutes, while I unpacked my suitcase. Sylvia seemed
> surprised that I didn't mind her talking to Lara, but my feeling was, why
> not? Maybe something either Lara or I said to Sylvia might get through to
> her and get her thinking. There is always that hope.
>
> Sylvia and I parted cordially that evening, and Sylvia said she'd like to
> get together with me while I was in D.C. I said that sounded fine. But as
> it turned out, it was not to be.
>
> The next day I met Joachim and Phillip, the Swedish TV crew. They filmed
> an interview with me in the lobby of the Renaissance Hotel, and afterwards
> we sat in the hotel restaurant for lunch. Soon after we ordered, Sue
> Taylor and Alex Jones from OSA DC appeared at our table and began
> harassing us. Phillip picked up his camera and began filming the whole
> thing, of course. I was amazed that Sue was so rude to Joachim even though
> she knew she was being filmed and that it would appear on national
> television in Sweden.
>
> We finally persuaded them to leave so we could eat lunch, but ten minutes
> later Sue, Alex and Sylvia all came back to our table. They were totally
> in our face and it was impossible to eat our lunch. I excused myself and
> went and asked hotel security to escort them out as they were harassing
> us. I returned to the table and sat down, and pretty soon security arrived
> and said quietly to Sue Taylor, "If you don't leave immediately on your
> own, I will have to help you leave," whereupon they all filed out of the
> hotel.
>
> Bob Minton had to come down to D.C. on other business, and I had never
> actually met Arnie Lerma in person, so Bob took us both out on Tuesday
> evening for a nice dinner so we could finally meet each other. We were
> having a wonderful time when suddenly Matt Baraschi, one of OSA's more
> boorish operatives, appeared at our table and began snapping photos of us.
> It was incredibly offensive. I got up and convinced Matt to sit down next
> to Bob so I could take their photo together. He handed me his camera, and
> I immediately handed it to the maitre d', who turned around and took it
> into the kitchen to dispose of it. Matt jumped up and ran after him into
> the kitchen, creating an unbelievable scene in the restaurant. He soon
> emerged with his camera and stormed out, after accusing me of theft.
>
> Finally my trip was at an end. All of the confrontation with the
> scientologists had been exhausting for me. I fell asleep as soon as the
> plane took off and didn't wake up until the pilot announced we were about
> to land in Seattle. I was really looking forward to getting home and
> relaxing. I walked off the plane and into the terminal. The first person I
> saw was Vaughn, and the next thing I knew Ann Ruble, the DSA Seattle, was
> coming between Vaughn and me so that it was impossible for me to say hello
> to him. She had a man with her named Larry something -- I missed his last
> name. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was. I couldn't
> believe they were there. Now I realized that I was virtually being stalked
> all the way across the country. They knew what flights I was on; they knew
> what hotels I was staying at, even what hotel rooms. It was unnerving to
> realize I was being watched so closely by these people.
>
> "Stacy," Ann said, "Sylvia called me and said you promised her you would
> call her and let her know before you deprogrammed any of her staff in D.C.
> I just want you to promise me the same thing here in Seattle."
>
> These people had caught Vaughn off guard. He hadn't realized they were
> scientologists at first, but when he did, it made him furious. He wanted
> to call airport security and have them escorted out. I convinced him to
> let me speak to Ann for a few minutes but she was actually quite rude and
> was clearly there only to harass me and try to frighten me.
>
> She said, "Stacy, you know who Rick Ross is, don't you? You don't want the
> same thing to happen to you here in Washington, do you?"
>
> Vaughn heard this and asked her if she was the one who supervised the
> leafleting of the town of Vashon with hate literature about us, or if she
> was the one who ordered our dog kidnapped and beaten almost to death. She
> denied any knowledge of those things, and even denied knowing who private
> investigator David Lee is.
>
> In fact, it is possible that she really hasn't been in charge the
> harassment we have been subjected to, and that she hasn't been kept
> informed other than what she has read in the local newspaper. It has
> probably all been run directly from Los Angeles. I don't think Ann would
> have the stomach for the dirty tricks they've run on us, certainly I don't
> think she would condone torturing our dog Mac. She is basically a caring
> person who thinks she is helping people by her involvement in scientology.
> She is just a dupe.
>
> Lara Wessel, in the meantime, is thrilled to have her life back. She is
> looking forward to getting her acting career back on track. She is happy
> to be able to have all of her old friends back. She is educating herself
> about mind control so she won't ever be taken in again. She is greatly
> relieved to be in control of her own thoughts again.
>
> After this experience it is more clear to me than ever that freedom of
> speech and freedom of thought are the mortal enemies of totalitarianism.
> No wonder scientology is out to destroy the Internet. No totalitarian
> system of government can survive the free flow of information. No wonder
> scientology is so afraid that one of their members might sit down and have
> a conversation with me. God forbid a scientologist gains access to
> information that is not under the control of the organization. God forbid
> scientologists begin to exercise their inalienable rights of free speech,
> free thought and free association.

Unit 61

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Pign...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
snip

> The police dept. and the New Orleans DA fortunately didn't share
> your disbelief and were very supportive. The New Orleans Police
> Dept. takes false 911 calls very seriously, since they were falsely
> called out to the family's home on two occasions because of 911 calls
> saying that someone was committing suicide and that someone was being
> held against her will. What the people on ARS are too intelligent
> to take seriously is your trolling.
>

> Monica Pignotti

I hope they file obstructing charges against those who contributed
to these false reports. At the very least the credibility of
the people, and their ORGanization, has gone down the tubes
with law enforcement in that city.

Another classic example of shooting yourself in the foot.

Keep it up by the way. Then the rest of the world dosen't
have to work so hard at exposing $cientology.

John

Alan Furman

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May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

In article <6jun04$9...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,

Scott A. McClare <cj...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:

>Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> writes:
>
>>Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
>> to follow Mr. Young around. Trash writing. Paranoid ravings of a
>> lunatic. All followed by the applause of harmonious follow up admiration
>> of his fellow brain-washed ARS cultists.

Whereas L.Ron Hubbard merely claimed to have dodged a freight locomotive
on Venus.

>ONE of the people Stacy was writing ABOUT was worried about "OSA
>helicopters," and you use THAT as an excuse to "discredit" the entire
>story.


--
====al...@aimnet.com * LPC * LPUSA * ISIL * IOS * KoX * Netscab Squealer====
LEGALIZE FREEDOM >>>> http://www.lp.org * UBI LIBERTAS IBI PATRIA

When you say "Bill Clinton," you've said a mouthful.

Pign...@worldnet.att.net

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> writes: > john smith wrote:
> >
> I'll let you in on the big secret John. Neither CofS nor the busybodies
> from Seattle are *brainwashing* anybody. There ain't no war. It's about
> as complex as deciding which underwear to buy. Stacy bought Scientology
> underwear for years. Now it itches. So instead of just switching brands
> she feels compelled to go around 'deprogramming' other purchasers. It's
> a curious manifestation of an affluent society. Hell... if Minton is
> paying the freight, why not? It's better than getting a real job eh?
> Plus it keeps one from the horror of facing the fact that they're the
> ones who screwed up.... CofS is the perfect target for shirking
> responsibility for ones own wasted years.

You are even more clueless than I thought. Minton had nothing to
do with this. It was the family who made all the arrangements
because they wanted their daughter back. You really ought to get
the facts before you make these ridiculous assumptions. Stacy is taking
responsibility by helping people so they don't have to go through
what she did, but then you obviously know nothing about the kind of
genuine compassion and caring for people that Stacy practices on
a regular basis that you obviosly lack any capacity for.

Monica Pignotti


Wolf

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine wrote:
>
> In article <35627A...@micron.net>, Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> writes

> >Martin... I used to just think you were stupid.
>

> And you think we set any store by your opinion?

Wow Dave... you finally dropped the *glug-glug meme* on your sig line.
What happened? Last time I saw your pic on the net you were doing your
best Michael Moorcock impression and hauling around a toy doggie.

William Barwell

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

In article <35625B...@micron.net>, Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> wrote:
>LilAlex742 wrote:

>>
>> Wolfy writes:
>>
>> >Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
>> >to follow Mr. Young around.
>>
>> Okay. Your snide AND you can't read. Is that it?
>>
>> LilAlex
>
>Aw c'mon LilAlex... I'm justing having fun at the expense of anyone
>dense enough to write such schmaltz and even more fun at the expense of
>those who blather acceptance of it as if spoken from the very mouth of
>God.
>

You're wasting electrons again.....


*Plonk*

Pope Charles
SubGenius Pope Of Houston
Slack!


Xenubat (Sue M.)

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

On Tue, 19 May 1998 21:08:28 GMT, st...@ptinet.net (Stacy Young)
wrote:

[snip excellent post]

I've webbed this post at:

http://www.primenet.com/~xenubat/oneless.html


Sue (SP4)
--
http://www.primenet.com/~xenubat

Starshadow

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

In article <35631F...@micron.net>, wolf...@micron.net says...
Unlike you, Wolfie, most people have the freedom to change what they post
at will. You being a cult apologist probably don't understand this.

But don't worry, Duke, your doggie friend with waterwings, still seems
to show up at pickets regularly. I think you can find him if you try.
There's room for him, and a bridge to total madness, and even a gerbil
wheel to freedom!


--
Bright Blessings,


Starshadow SP4, Granny Dyke

Wolf

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Pign...@worldnet.att.net wrote:

> You are even more clueless than I thought.

I don't even think it's a contest Monica. It was you, Stacey and Vaughn
that were blind enuf to get sucked into that whole GO/SO hogwash for so
many years. Now that your mental vapor-lock of decades has unjammed you
want to go around accusing CofS of brainwashing? It must be easier to do
that than face the fact that you were unobservant enough to buy into the
whole program to start with.

> You really ought to get
> the facts before you make these ridiculous assumptions.

Facts are not a requirement on ARS.

> Stacy is taking
> responsibility by helping people so they don't have to go through
> what she did,

'Taking responsibility'? You sound like a Scientologist. Hell, Stacey
didn't have to go through what she did. Last time I looked all you have
to do to cross a state line in America is cross it. When I left
Scientology I simply left. It was amazing. No armed OSA agents. No dead
dogs. No harrassment. No 911 calls. Why do you think that is? Especially
after 20 years, 17 on staff, Cl VIII and a high profile? Maybe it's
because I didn't immediatly starting suing them or bleating that they
were all criminals who took advantage of me. This ain't rocket science
Monica, it's just paying attention to basic human nature. You wanna
fight? They'll give it to you. And you, of all people, ought to know
that.

> but then you obviously know nothing about the kind of
> genuine compassion and caring for people that Stacy practices on
> a regular basis that you obviosly lack any capacity for.

Could be. Whatever name you give it, it's still hype, drama and
grandstanding. Same shit the SO and GO members used to do, rushing
around with stern looks on their face, hurrying off on death-defying
missions to 'rescue' those less fortunate than them. This is no more
than SO style activism without the braid and LRH orders.

Anyway, good luck. And be careful. Stick your nose in the wrong place
and you'll end up doing time like Artie did. Not everybody appreciates
your sacred mission. Someone might eventually find it as offensive as
what the SO does and file charges.

Wolf

p.s. FWIW, I said just such things to HK Henson prior to his little
problem. Why is it you people, especially you ex-SO and GO types,
consistently underestimate the CofS?

Wolf

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

Ceon Ramon wrote:
>
> In article <356216...@micron.net>, Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> wrote:
> >Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
> >to follow Mr. Young around. Trash writing. Paranoid ravings of a
> >lunatic. All followed by the applause of harmonious follow up admiration
> >of his fellow brain-washed ARS cultists.
> >
> >The only problem with this little fiction is Young shouldn't count on
> >selling the movie rights, it's a real snoozer. I give it a one popcorn
> >bag rating at best.
>
> Heh! You wish. It's the stuff Movie of the Week is made of.

There's no accounting for some people's tastes. Personally I think it
should have some car chases, explosions and a good shoot-out or two.

Wolf

Chris Sutor

unread,
May 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/20/98
to

LilAlex742 (lilal...@aol.com) spake thusly:
: Wolfy points out:

: >And I can read, you can't spell... 'your' is a possesive, 'you're' is a


: >contraction of 'you are'. Duh... I year ago I didn't know what
: >super-literate was and now I are one!

: Caught me. Sorry. I do understand grammar, by the way. I am, however,
: dyslexic, and often make similar blunders. I used to have real problems with
: mixing up the letters D, P, and B, along with rearranging syllables.

As a person with a similar affliction, I can appreciate the problem. My
big blunder seems to be rearranging certain letter pairs. The 'gh' in
words like through, or the 'ng' in any word ending in 'ing'... thank
goodness for the delete key. The faster I type, the more likely I'll make
those kinds of blunders.

The really weird part is that sometimes I'll pause in my typing, thinking
I just made a typo, because a word didn't feel right when I typed it, but
I'll discover that the combination of the typo, and the dyslexia wound up
making me spell the word correctly, anyway.

: Now, my


: mistakes are generally limited to the kind of homophone faux pa you pointed out
: above. For some reason, its easy for me to find mistakes when proofing on
: paper, and a little more difficult on the computer screen.

Same. I've fixed my copy of Microsoft word to look for my commoner


mistakes though, which can come in handy. I seem to blow it on the same
words all the time.

: Also, the


: informality of a newsgroup tends to make me lax. I do try, but I've got faulty
: wiring, and things sometimes come out wrong.

Informality? I sometimes write better on Usenet, than on my own home WP.
Probably because I know the only person reading that will be me, and
there's always the spell checker.

(snip)


: PS I like schmaltz.

I don't. Too much foam and the can's a pain to open. I'll take a box o'
YooHoo instead, any day.


: LilAlex


--
COBALTatTIGERDENdotCOM I'd really like a New World Order, but
----==============---- I can only afford a slightly used one.
now with 10% real *****************************************
fruit juice! Don't blame me, I voted for Richard Dangerous

Keith Henson

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May 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/21/98
to

Wolf (wolf...@micron.net) wrote:

snip

: There's no accounting for some people's tastes. Personally I think it


: should have some car chases, explosions and a good shoot-out or two.

Well, I manage to get in a car chase and lose (*)'s hired goons, *someone*
blew up a car recently, and we always have the possibility of a shootout
with those 300 asault rifles Andre Tabayoyon bought for the troops at
Hemet. Keith Henson


Pimoty

unread,
May 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/21/98
to

Wolf: I don't even think it's a contest Monica. It was you, Stacey and Vaughn

that were blind enuf to get sucked into that whole GO/SO hogwash for so many
years. Now that your mental vapor-lock of decades has unjammed you want to go
around accusing CofS of brainwashing? >>

What else did you describe above ?

Wolf: It must be easier to do that than face the fact that you were unobservant


enough to buy into the whole program to start with.>>

As they said, brainwashing is not mutually exclusive with your statements.

Wolf: Facts are not a requirement on ARS.>>

You must have been taking examples of scientologists here ? But in general ARS
is based on facts. A fact you cannot ignore.
For additional info:
http://www.xenu.net
http://www.entheta.net


JimDBB

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May 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/21/98
to

>Subject: Re: One less scientologist in the world
>From: Wolf <wolf...@micron.net>
>Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 18:33 EDT

>I don't even think it's a contest Monica. It was you, Stacey and Vaughn
>that were blind enuf to get sucked into that whole GO/SO hogwash for so
>many years. Now that your mental vapor-lock of decades has unjammed you

>want to go around accusing CofS of brainwashing? It must be easier to do


>that than face the fact that you were unobservant enough to buy into the
>whole program to start with.

>Taking responsibility'? You sound like a Scientologist. Hell, Stacey
>didn't have to go through what she did. Last time I looked all you have
>to do to cross a state line in America is cross it. When I left
>Scientology I simply left. It was amazing. No armed OSA agents. No dead
>dogs. No harrassment. No 911 calls. Why do you think that is? Especially
>after 20 years, 17 on staff, Cl VIII and a high profile? Maybe it's
>because I didn't immediatly starting suing them or bleating that they
>were all criminals who took advantage of me. This ain't rocket science
>Monica, it's just paying attention to basic human nature. You wanna
>fight? They'll give it to you. And you, of all people, ought to know
>that.

>Could be. Whatever name you give it, it's still hype, drama and
>grandstanding. Same shit the SO and GO members used to do, rushing
>around with stern looks on their face, hurrying off on death-defying
>missions to 'rescue' those less fortunate than them. This is no more
>than SO style activism without the braid and LRH orders.

>Wolf

I must say that Wolfie does make some good points. Some people, for years,
were very much an active part of the evil empire then, suddenly, they see the
light and shortly after are noisily saving the world from what they were an
instrumental part of
of. This is fine except for the fact that it took them an awful long time to
wake up. But it didn't take them very long to get in the fight to destroy the
evil empire. Wolfie, you have said quite succinctly, a few things that
needed to be said.

JimDBB

Wolf

unread,
May 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/21/98
to

Starshadow wrote:
>
> In article <3562F8...@micron.net>, wolf...@micron.net says...

> > I'll let you in on the big secret John. Neither CofS nor the busybodies
> > from Seattle are *brainwashing* anybody. There ain't no war. It's about
> > as complex as deciding which underwear to buy. Stacy bought Scientology
> > underwear for years. Now it itches.
>

> Lisa McPherson's killed her. Musta been some itching powder.

You know Starshadow, if indeed SO members were responsible for
McPherson's death (and IMO certain individuls were), then they ought to
be prosecuted. I've never attempted to conceal my distaste for the SO.
But no matter what the facts are of McPherson, the acts of isolated
individuals don't automatically make Scientology a killer cult. Why am I
explaing this to you? You're not displaying any ability to
differentiate...

> Yeah, there is a war, but you are already one of the losers. Sit tight,
> Wolf, and yap away. Scratch when your space fleas itch,

Don't got any... I'm a NOTS completion :~D.

> and keep on
> yapping about ars being a cult and all critics being bigots,

Did I say 'all' critics? Oops. What I meant what lots of critics. But
only the ones that have had their minds melded in the ARS cult-meme.

> and
> demonstrating what superior beings you culties really are. Really,
> blather on, do. You are such a good illustration of what Scientology does
> to a mind.

Hmmmm. Pay attention. I'm supposed to be known as the cold and
calculating ex-Scientologist around here. The one who sold bunches of
the stuff and isn't even begging forgiveness from you guys.



> So instead of just switching brands
> > she feels compelled to go around 'deprogramming' other purchasers.
>

> Yap, yap "deprogramming" yap yap.

Erlich already did the 'yap, yap' thing back in 95... before he got his
ass drug through the legal grinder.

> It's
> > a curious manifestation of an affluent society. Hell... if Minton is
> > paying the freight, why not? It's better than getting a real job eh?
> > Plus it keeps one from the horror of facing the fact that they're the
> > ones who screwed up.... CofS is the perfect target for shirking
> > responsibility for ones own wasted years.
>

> And your excuse is?

Me? I don't have any wasted years. I'm one of those fortunate people who
learned early in life that spitting in the wind ain't healthy.

> Keep on with the raving, Wolf. I'm sure that plenty of lurkers get a
> real education. At least the ones that talk to me in email tell me they
> do.

Well by golly I hope so! Diversity of opinion is grand ain't it?

Wolf

Wolf

unread,
May 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/21/98
to

Alan Furman wrote:
>
> In article <6jun04$9...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
> Scott A. McClare <cj...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
>
> >Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> writes:
> >
> >>Wow. OSA helicopters. The CofS Enforcement Division spending thousands
> >> to follow Mr. Young around. Trash writing. Paranoid ravings of a
> >> lunatic. All followed by the applause of harmonious follow up admiration
> >> of his fellow brain-washed ARS cultists.
>
> Whereas L.Ron Hubbard merely claimed to have dodged a freight locomotive
> on Venus.

Pretty cool huh? Do you believe people actually bought into that shit?
Hell, old Stacey and Vaughn got snagged by that hook for years! But, on
a more serious note... Hubbard's imagination and your opinion of it
isn't an explaination of what mental state some you lady in Louisiana
was in to fear OSA helicopters in the first place. Throwing that into
the thread is the equivalent of yelling, "Yeah! Well, well, my dad can
beat up your dad."

> >ONE of the people Stacy was writing ABOUT was worried about "OSA
> >helicopters," and you use THAT as an excuse to "discredit" the entire
> >story.

Serious answer? The entire story is written with the intent of
supporting the need for 'deprogramming' in the first place. As a
news-type story it's not even up to tabloid standards. In short, it's a
spin piece written by Stacey to justify and validate her actions.
Nothing but assumptions and accusations. No hard data. No supporting
evidence regarding 911 calls. Sketchy detail on the dinner
confrontation, etc., etc.

> When you say "Bill Clinton," you've said a mouthful.

Good sig. At least we can agree on something other than CofS.

Wolf

Wolf

unread,
May 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/21/98
to

LOL! That's what I like about you Henson. Never a boring minute. Add to
that, you're just about the only ARS critic who I do believe. Now if
you'd quit wasting your time with those dreary pickets and write a book
instead, the 75K would be mere pocket change. You got my $25 when it
comes out.

Wolf

Keith Henson

unread,
May 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/21/98
to

Wolf (wolf...@micron.net) wrote:

snip

: But no matter what the facts are of McPherson, the acts of isolated


: individuals don't automatically make Scientology a killer cult.

I agree with you Wolf, it does not *automatically* make scn a killer cult.

What *does* make scientology a "killer cult" is that these deaths result
from scientology's official *policy* on how to treat people with
psychological or medical problems (even if all of the introspection
rundown, purif, and NOTs deaths are unintentional).

Besides Lisa, I know of two similar applications of the isolation rundown
which avoided being fatal only through luck. Some people think there are
hundreds of such cases, but these cases have been covered up as much as
scientology could manage. Even the Lisa McPherson case only came to light
because of the web and Jeff Jacobson.

And, no matter how much the upper management of scientology gets its nose
rubbed in the fact that isolation is a dangerous treatment for psychotic
people, they are mentally frozen into Hubbard think and can not change the
policy Hubbard laid down.

Keith Henson

Rebecca Hartong

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May 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/21/98
to

Wolf wrote in message <3563D2...@micron.net>...

>You know Starshadow, if indeed SO members were responsible for
>McPherson's death (and IMO certain individuls were), then they ought to
>be prosecuted. I've never attempted to conceal my distaste for the SO.

>But no matter what the facts are of McPherson, the acts of isolated
>individuals don't automatically make Scientology a killer cult.

Not automatically, no. I agree that the greatest blame for Lisa McPherson's
death probably ought to fall on the individuals who were charged with caring
for her. However, I also think there is merit to the argument that the
Introspection Rundown is a potentially dangerous procedure, that the CoS
requires of its members complete and unquestioning obedience to 100%
Standard Tech, and that these two factors contributed greatly to the
treatment (rather, lack of treatment) that Lisa McPherson received. In that
sense, it's not completely unfair to lay at least part of the blame for
McPherson's death on the CoS itself.
---------------------------------
Rebecca Hartong
http://www.erols.com/hartong

Eric Bohlman

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May 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/21/98
to

JimDBB <jim...@aol.com> wrote:
: I must say that Wolfie does make some good points. Some people, for years,
: were very much an active part of the evil empire then, suddenly, they see the
: light and shortly after are noisily saving the world from what they were an
: instrumental part of
: of. This is fine except for the fact that it took them an awful long time to
: wake up. But it didn't take them very long to get in the fight to destroy the
: evil empire. Wolfie, you have said quite succinctly, a few things that
: needed to be said.

What you describe is really just another form of the "zeal of the
convert." I think it's a way of resolving the cognitive dissonance that
results from suddenly walking away from something that's been an
important part of one's life for a long time. It can lead people to
obnoxious behavior at times (such as the just-quit smoker getting "in
your face" with smokers) or even atrocities (such as the revolutionary
regime that executes anyone who had even the most tenuous ties to the old
regime), but in itself it's not necessarily a bad thing.


Nico Garcia

unread,
May 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/21/98
to

Beautiful job, Stacy. Stay cool and calm and telling the truth
even to the people who lie about you, exactly as you've been doing.

I am wearing a *BIG* grin at your handling of this.
--
Nico Garcia
ra...@tiac.net
<PGP is obviously a good idea: look at who objects to it.>

Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine

unread,
May 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/21/98
to

In art<3563D2...@micron.net>, Wolf <wolf...@micron.net> writes:
>Starshadow wrote:
>>
>> In article <3562F8...@micron.net>, wolf...@micron.net says...
>
>> > I'll let you in on the big secret John. Neither CofS nor the busybodies
>> > from Seattle are *brainwashing* anybody. There ain't no war. It's about
>> > as complex as deciding which underwear to buy. Stacy bought Scientology
>> > underwear for years. Now it itches.
>>
>> Lisa McPherson's killed her. Musta been some itching powder.
>
>You know Starshadow, if indeed SO members were responsible for
>McPherson's death (and IMO certain individuls were), then they ought to
>be prosecuted. I've never attempted to conceal my distaste for the SO.
>But no matter what the facts are of McPherson, the acts of isolated
>individuals don't automatically make Scientology a killer cult.

Bollocks. It wasn't "rogue individuals." It was PER POLICY AND TECH,
to the letter, not to release her for medical treatment if that might
include psychiatric elements, but to use the Introspection Rundown---
even done by people who didn't have the knowledge of **physical**
medicine to handle a patient who's not taking proper food and
fluids (word clear "glucose drip").

In art<hkhenson...@netcom.com>, Keith Henson writes:
>What *does* make scientology a "killer cult" is that these deaths result
>from scientology's official *policy* on how to treat people with
>psychological or medical problems (even if all of the introspection
>rundown, purif, and NOTs deaths are unintentional).

--

<__"-$ <__" <__" <__"
:_ : : :_

''''''''._____'-_....'"...-------''''''_ <__'
'. $CIENTOLOGY: ..''--- :.
; _ . . . - '''

'

Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine

unread,
May 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/21/98
to

In article <35631F...@micron.net>, Wolf writes:
>> And you think we set any store by your opinion?
>
>Wow Dave... you finally dropped the *glug-glug meme* on your sig line.
>What happened? Last time I saw your pic on the net you were doing your
>best Michael Moorcock impression and hauling around a toy doggie.
>
>> --
>> <__"-$ <__" <__" <__"
>> :_ :_ :_ :_
>> -------------------------------- <__'
>> '. $CIENTOLOGY: ...__''--- :.
>> ; . ''''''''
>> . . ' ': ': ':
>> : .' the bridge to .~~>~~> ~~>
>> :.' total madness ~~> ~~>

I've read Moorcock's books but I don't know anything about him and
toy dogs. I've still got "Duke"; I recently took him for walkies
around Saint Hill itself. But I like the idea of $cientology as
"the bridge to total madness", and a bunch of crazy clams paying
money to go up(?) a bridge to nowhere and falling off the end.
$cientology: that's a very long word. We know a song about that........

>SONG: "LITTLE GHOSTIES" (to the tune of "Little Arrows").
>=========================================================
>
> There was a man called Hubbard who was nutty as could be
> He suffered from co-caine bugs though he thought them spirit fleas
> He said "I'll make a buck from this in any way I can"
> So he packaged up and sold them in a multi-level-scam, as
> li---ttle---
> ghosties up your nostrils little ghosties up your ass
> he called them body thay-tans and said they had mental mass
> learn from Ron pa-ra-si-TOH-sis in a "being-crazy" class
> cross the bridge to total madness for a quarter million cash
>
> But still for all his auditing he had those spirit fleas
> So he went to david Mayo and they wrote the N--Oh--Tees:
> Ask your questions of a ragdoll, though the mugwump holds the cans
> If they don't go on the drug roundown then use your thaytan hand, on
> li--ttle
> ghosties up your nostrils little ghosties up your ass
> he called them body thay-tans and said they had mental mass
> learn from Ron pa-ra-si-TOH-sis in a "being-crazy" class
> cross the bridge to total madness for a quarter million cash
>
> One day death came for Ron Hubbard as it must come for all men
> And no amount of auditing will change the hou-r when,
> He lost his mind compeletely as he waited for the grave
> Though they jabbed his bum with vistaril he still would rant&rave, of
> li--ttle
> ghosties up his nostrils little ghosties up his ass
> he called them body thay-tans and said they had mental mass
> learn from Ron pa-ra-si-TOH-sis in a "being-crazy" class
> cross the bridge to total madness for a quarter million cash


|~/ |~/
~~|;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;||';-._.-;'^';||_.-;'^'0-|~~
P | Woof Woof, Glug Glug ||____________|| 0 | P
O | Who Drowned the Judge's Dog? | . . . . . . . '----. 0 | O
O | answers on *---|_______________ @__o0 | O
L |{a href="news:alt.religion.scientology"}{/a}_____________|/_______| L
and{a href="http://www.xemu.demon.co.uk/clam/lynx/q0.html"}{/a}XemuSP4(:)


Martin Hunt

unread,
May 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/21/98
to

In article <6k2gs0$b...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
<Pign...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>Jim DBB wrote:
>
>> I must say that Wolfie does make some good points. Some people, for years,
>> were very much an active part of the evil empire then, suddenly, they see
>> the
>> light and shortly after are noisily saving the world from what they were an
>> instrumental part of
>> of. This is fine except for the fact that it took them an awful long time to
>> wake up. But it didn't take them very long to get in the fight to destroy
>> the
>> evil empire. Wolfie, you have said quite succinctly, a few things that
>> needed to be said.
>

>In all the years you spent with CAN, didn't you learn anything about
>understanding cults and how they operate to hold their members?
>From reading this response of yours,apparently not.
>You are as clueless as Wolfie. How sad for you. If you didn't learn
>after all the resources you have had available to you, then there's
>not much else I can say to you.
>
>Monica Pignotti

Monica, Jim has made me angry before with his bizarre rants, but
I've never doubted until today that he could have made a good
telephone counsellor for the old CAN, helping people with their
cult-related problems.

I'm no longer of that opinion. Comments like "This is fine except
for the fact that it took them an awful long time to wake up." show
that he is totally unsuited to this kind of work.

"Wolfie, you have said quite succinctly, a few things that

needed to be said." <puke>

--
Cogito, ergo sum.