From Philip Gale's mother
Teresa Marrin
I have read all the various postings and discussion in this newsgroup
regarding my recently deceased son, Philip. It was not easy.
I know the discussions here about him, his education at Delphi and his
work for Earthlink (last December) were upsetting to him because he
called me and we talked about it.
I know he was contacted by the Boston Herald for their article because
he called me and we talked about it. I can only assume that there was
some connection between this newsgroup (or the individuals on it) and
that reporter contacting him. The interview was upsetting to him. That
was the last time I talked to my son.
Philip chose not to become involved in his parents religion, and I
respected that. Yet here he was, pulled into an ugly and controversy
(which was fomented and encouraged by the people at this site) that had
NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM.
In the BEST case scenario, it was upsetting to him. At worst, it could
have actively contributed to his decision to take his own life. How
would you feel to be 19 years old and have your school, your work
experience, and your parents beliefs pulled apart and attacked? I have
trouble ignoring the fact that his decision to end his life apparently
came within a few days of the Boston Herald article.
Some of the posts here since his death have been unkind personal
speculations and sometimes outrightly mean. And nearly all have ignored
the fact that, while I am a Scientologist, I am a mother and my son,
whom I loved and respected and, more than, anthing, wanted to be able to
achieve his goals in life - whatever they were and wherever they took
him - is gone.
Please stop discussing him, and before you start taking apart some other
person, look at the possible effects you might have.
Marie Gale
Marie Gale
Please note that the previous post was issued from a borrowed computer.
Anyone wishing to respond to me can do so to
Valerie & John
I'd like to offer my condolences. So horrible to read that something
like this has happened.
I'll be sure to remember your family in my prayers.
Valerie
Nico Garcia
Miss Gale, the vast majority of the critics on alt.religion.scientology
mourn your son's loss. Those of us who are MIT alumni feel particularly
strongly, since we suffered some of the same stresses and difficulties
your son experienced. We hope that he is remembered, and mourned, and
steps taken to prevent the recurrence of this form of tragedy.
But your complaints about the Boston Herald are not well-founded. It is
completely appropriate for a paper, investigating a large organization with a
history of harassment against critcs including reporters, police, and
ex-members, to contact someone like your son who was familiar both with
scientology and with the Internet. This may in fact have been distressing to
him, but I fail to see how: he could deny or support the critics, he could
deny or support scientology's actions, he could refuse the interview. This is
precisely what newspapers are for, to find and publish the truth. The Boston
Herald's series was cautious, detailed, and well researched: the reporter
would doubtless have been delighted to include your son's real position on the
issues, and we would have been fascinated to see them.
I also urge you to examine the links between scientology and suicide with the
same rigor your organization, the CCHR, investigates psychology. If you can
find ways to provide more effective support within your own group for troubled
or suicidal people, that would be a genuine benefit from your son's death.
CCHR's own flyers, which I have seen posted around the MIT campus, can have a
chilling effect on someone considering psychiatric treatment for depression or
other disorders. Their angry, often blatantly false and always
over-generalized accusations against all psychiatrists discourage MIT students
from reaching out to the very help they may need. Please consider refocusing
CCHR's efforts against specific persons or policies, rather than the entire
field of mental health care that might help someone feeling suicidal.
--
Nico Garcia
ra...@tiac.net
<PGP is obviously a good idea: look at who objects to it.>
Tilman Hausherr
In <3512D2...@earthlink.net>, Teresa Marrin <mar...@media.mit.edu>
wrote:
>I have read all the various postings and discussion in this newsgroup
>regarding my recently deceased son, Philip. It was not easy.
>
>I know the discussions here about him, his education at Delphi and his
>work for Earthlink (last December) were upsetting to him because he
>called me and we talked about it.
Upsetting how? Because he was angry that his parents were involved in a
huge scam (scientology) and his mom "director" of an internationally
active hate group (CCHR), and that his school was part of it? I would be
upset.
He never complained to *ars*. I found two posts in ars in December
(by me) that were just about whether he did or did not write
TotalAccess.
>I know he was contacted by the Boston Herald for their article because
>he called me and we talked about it. I can only assume that there was
>some connection between this newsgroup (or the individuals on it) and
>that reporter contacting him. The interview was upsetting to him. That
>was the last time I talked to my son.
Keep "assuming". The articles did not mention him. If he was
interviewed, it means that he *agreed* to do it.
>Philip chose not to become involved in his parents religion, and I
>respected that. Yet here he was, pulled into an ugly and controversy
>(which was fomented and encouraged by the people at this site) that had
>NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM.
According to your cult leader, "truth" is "The exact time, place, form,
and event." (Phoenix Lectures p. 183, mentioned in technical dictionary)
So your speculations aren't "truth". No details about anything. Maybe
you invented it like the CCHR rants.
>In the BEST case scenario, it was upsetting to him. At worst, it could
>have actively contributed to his decision to take his own life. How
>would you feel to be 19 years old and have your school, your work
>experience, and your parents beliefs pulled apart and attacked? I have
So what? Happens all the time with people as they grow up. Obviously he
felt that way by himself, as he chose not to be involve in his parents
"religion" although he got brainwashed by Delphi (i.e. you tried
everything possible to keep him in the cult).
>trouble ignoring the fact that his decision to end his life apparently
>came within a few days of the Boston Herald article.
Don't forget that he might have eaten breakfast cereals. A lot of people
suicide after eating these.
>Some of the posts here since his death have been unkind personal
>speculations and sometimes outrightly mean. And nearly all have ignored
I suggest you read CCHR "literature". That's outright libellous to an
entire profession, and very dangerous because it prevents people who
need help. Many ex-scientologists are scared to seek professional help.
>the fact that, while I am a Scientologist, I am a mother and my son,
>whom I loved and respected and, more than, anthing, wanted to be able to
>achieve his goals in life - whatever they were and wherever they took
>him - is gone.
Hard to believe. From your posts, you are first a scientologist: you use
the tragic death of your son to attack scientology critics.
You make silly speculations without any basis in fact. None. It reminds
me of scientology's allegations that Ed Lottick was responsible for the
suicide of Noah Lottick.
(Because Ed Lottick considered scientology a scam and had told Noah).
>Please stop discussing him, and before you start taking apart some other
>person, look at the possible effects you might have.
Be assured that we will continue to discuss it. Maybe you should start
to find out why your son chose to die. Wake up. (Of course, feel free to
forward *evidence* that ars contributed to his decision)
From what I see on this newsgroup, most if not all posts on PG were
*nice*, especially the news articles. It's your posts that is the
typical example of hate, hate, hate.
Tilman
--
Tilman Hausherr [KoX, SP4]
til...@berlin.snafu.de http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/#cos
Resistance is futile. You will be enturbulated. Xenu always prevails.
Find broken links on your web site: http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/xenulink.html
Annoy scientology by buying books: http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/bookstore.html
Rebecca Hartong
Teresa Marrin wrote in message <3512D2...@earthlink.net>...
presumably from Marie Gale...
>I know the discussions here about him, his education at Delphi and his
>work for Earthlink (last December) were upsetting to him because he
>called me and we talked about it.
Was Philip ever mentioned on this newsgroup before his death? I don't
recall... if so, it must have been just in passing.
>Some of the posts here since his death have been unkind personal
>speculations and sometimes outrightly mean. And nearly all have ignored
>the fact that, while I am a Scientologist, I am a mother and my son,
>whom I loved and respected and, more than, anthing, wanted to be able to
>achieve his goals in life - whatever they were and wherever they took
>him - is gone.
I don't recall any unkind speculations. Rather, my impression was that the
overwhelming majority of posts were complimentary towards Philip's many
accomplishments. The only comments which I can imagine you taking offense
at would be those where some have speculated about whether Philip's past as
a Scientologist--and your relationship to CCHR in particular--might have
influenced him in whatever decision he made regarding psychiatric treatment
for his depression. These are reasonable speculations considering the
nature of this newsgroup, the nature of CCHR and the nature of most
suicides.
>Please stop discussing him, and before you start taking apart some other
>person, look at the possible effects you might have.
I'm rather surprised--and rather skeptical--that a grief-stricken mother
(which I do believe Marie Gale to be) would bother to take the time to read
a.r.s.
Rebecca Hartong
Marie Gale wrote in message <3512D2...@earthlink.net>...
>Please note that the previous post was issued from a borrowed computer.
>Anyone wishing to respond to me can do so to
>
>mg...@earthlink.net
From all indications, it looks like both these messages originated at MIT.
Am I missing something here? What evidence is there that either of these
messages actually came from Marie Gale?
Keith Henson
Teresa Marrin (mar...@media.mit.edu) wrote:
: I have read all the various postings and discussion in this newsgroup
: regarding my recently deceased son, Philip. It was not easy.
It's not easy for us either.
: I know the discussions here about him, his education at Delphi and his
: work for Earthlink (last December) were upsetting to him because he
: called me and we talked about it.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think his name was mentioned in this
news group prior the stories about his death.
: I know he was contacted by the Boston Herald for their article because
: he called me and we talked about it. I can only assume that there was
: some connection between this newsgroup (or the individuals on it) and
: that reporter contacting him. The interview was upsetting to him. That
: was the last time I talked to my son.
Also correct me on this point. The Boston Herald article was written
nearly two years ago, and no recent research was done to update the story
before it was published. So, when was he contacted?
: Philip chose not to become involved in his parents religion, and I
: respected that. Yet here he was, pulled into an ugly and controversy
: (which was fomented and encouraged by the people at this site) that had
: NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM.
Did Philip even know a.r.s existed? I don't remember seeing any postings
about or by him. Does anyone who knew him know if he was involved as a
lurker?
: In the BEST case scenario, it was upsetting to him. At worst, it could
: have actively contributed to his decision to take his own life. How
: would you feel to be 19 years old and have your school, your work
: experience, and your parents beliefs pulled apart and attacked? I have
: trouble ignoring the fact that his decision to end his life apparently
: came within a few days of the Boston Herald article.
Does this make sense? The BH articles and Philip's death were a few weeks
apart. If this act was not impulsive, and the suicidal ideation was of
weeks duration, why did he not seek treatment?
: Some of the posts here since his death have been unkind personal
: speculations and sometimes outrightly mean. And nearly all have ignored
: the fact that, while I am a Scientologist, I am a mother and my son,
: whom I loved and respected and, more than, anthing, wanted to be able to
: achieve his goals in life - whatever they were and wherever they took
: him - is gone.
: Please stop discussing him, and before you start taking apart some other
: person, look at the possible effects you might have.
Mrs. Gale I am sure you do not wish other parents to experience the same
thing you have gone through. Discussing what led up to your son taking
his life has the intent of preventing others from doing the same, exactly
as the discussions of other ways humans get hurt or killed are discussed
in attempts to prevent future ones. Though it may be painful for you to
do it, your testimony and insights might be of considerable use in
understanding and preventing further tragic cases. Since you have worked
up the courage to post once, I believe I express the view of the majority
of the people who post to a.r.s in asking you to post what you know and to
participate in the discussions on the topic. There may be some jerks you
will have to ignore, but I think in general you will find a great deal of
sympathy here. You certainly have mine.
Sincerely,
Keith Henson
Jeffrey L. Bell
Keith Henson <hkhe...@netcom.com> wrote:
>
>Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think his name was mentioned in this
>news group prior the stories about his death.
A quick search of dejanews shows that his name was mentioned about a
dozen times, mosst often with regards to his position at Earthlink,
but also Jaffe and Soeder Inc, and in quotes from a newspaper article
that had an interview with Marie Gale about Delphian schools.
-Jeff
Ron Newman
In article <6euq38$q...@enews3.newsguy.com>, "Rebecca says...
Marie Gale visited MIT yesterday for her son's memorial service at
the MIT Chapel. She was undoubtedly still on campus today, visiting the
MIT Media Lab which her son had close ties to. While there, she borrowed
someone else's account to make this posting. Nothing mysterious about that,
really.
Nan K
Mrs. Gale, as the mother of a 19 year old in her sophomore year of
college, I extend my deepest regrets at the lost of your son. I cannot
imagine the depth of your suffering and my hope for you is that your
faith can guide you through this traumatic experience.
As an avid reader of ars, I need to point out something. Adolescent
suicide is nearly always the result of a cognitive distortion (thinking
error) on the part of teenagers in which they feel totally out of
control and hopelessly without choices. In their distorted thinking,
they begin to believe that the only choice left that allows them any
control is to take their own life. Suicide is frequently their way to
"get even" with a world with which they are (justifiably or
unjustifiably) angry and overwhelmed.
Your implication is that your son may have taken his life as a result of
exposure to criticism of your religion, both through ars and the Boston
Globe article. It may not be a quantum leap to assume that Philip,
exposed to this criticism, felt angry, out of control, and overwhelmed,
resulting in what he saw as the only choice left, suicide (although no
one will ever know the exact thought process he had).
You ask, "How would you feel to be 19 years old and have your school,
your work experience, your parents belief pulled apart and attacked?"
My answer: if my 19 year old felt so hopeless that suicide were her
only choice, I would PRAY TO GOD that she would head for the nearest
counseling center, whether it be a counselor, social worker,
psychologist or psychiatrist, where therapy is nearly always successful
in preventing adolescent suicide. Although your church's teachings
indicate otherwise, I have worked in a community mental health center
for seven years and I have seen more than a hundred suicidal teenagers,
and in that time, not one of them has chosen suicide, thanks to prompt
crisis intervention and psychological treatment.
Which leads me to the question, why might we suppose your son did not
seek mental health treatment? Most likely because of the beliefs
indoctrinated in his Scientology background. One step further, it was
not ars or the Boston Globe or critics that took this choice away from
your son. It was the teachings of your church.
By the way, 20 years ago, when I left the church, I know how I felt to
be a young woman with my work experience, family, and beliefs being
pulled apart. Nevertheless, with great intrepidation about seeing a
therapist, but with greater intrepidation regarding my almost constant
thoughts of suicide, I made the choice to reach out to the mental health
providers that Ron so strongly criticized. And that decision is the
reason why I am alive today.
As a mother of a 19 year old, my heart hurts for your loss. I wish you
strength and courage. You are in my prayers.
Most sincerely,
Nan K
Nan K
Sorry, in my response I mentioned Boston Globe, when I mean to say
Boston Herald. Sorry for any confusion.
Nan K
Ron Newman
In article <hkhensonE...@netcom.com>, hkhe...@netcom.com (Keith
Henson) wrote:
Marie Gale wrote:
> : I know the discussions here about him, his education at Delphi and his
> : work for Earthlink (last December) were upsetting to him because he
> : called me and we talked about it.
>
> Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think his name was mentioned in this
> news group prior the stories about his death.
His name was mentioned a few times, always in a positive light,
mentioning how bright he was and how remarkable was his admission
to MIT at 15 and his job as director of R&D for Earthlink at such
a young age.
> : I know he was contacted by the Boston Herald for their article because
> : he called me and we talked about it. I can only assume that there was
> : some connection between this newsgroup (or the individuals on it) and
> : that reporter contacting him. The interview was upsetting to him. That
> : was the last time I talked to my son.
>
> Also correct me on this point. The Boston Herald article was written
> nearly two years ago, and no recent research was done to update the story
> before it was published.
Much of the research for the Boston Herald story was indeed done in
1996, but the reporter did some additional work early in 1998 to
bring it fully up to date.
> Since you have worked
> up the courage to post once, I believe I express the view of the majority
> of the people who post to a.r.s in asking you to post what you know and to
> participate in the discussions on the topic. There may be some jerks you
> will have to ignore, but I think in general you will find a great deal of
> sympathy here. You certainly have mine.
And mine as well -- this death affected me deeply, both as an MIT alumnus
(1975-79) and as a former employee of the MIT Media Laboratory (1994).
Being a 19-year-old at MIT can be stressful for *anyone*.
--
Ron Newman rne...@thecia.net
http://www2.thecia.net/users/rnewman/
Ron Newman
In article <3562e5de...@news.snafu.de>, til...@berlin.snafu.de
(Tilman Hausherr) wrote:
[a lot of angry sentences which I don't want to reproduce here, which
I consider a totally inappropriate response to the emotional pleas
of a grieving mother. I'm sorry that Marie Gale had to read this.]
pli...@rocketmail.com
In article <6eupnt$q...@enews3.newsguy.com>, "Rebecca says...
On Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:11:31 -0500, "Rebecca Hartong" <har...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>Teresa Marrin wrote in message <3512D2...@earthlink.net>...
>presumably from Marie Gale...
>
>>I know the discussions here about him, his education at Delphi and his
>>work for Earthlink (last December) were upsetting to him because he
>>called me and we talked about it.
>
>Was Philip ever mentioned on this newsgroup before his death? I don't
>recall... if so, it must have been just in passing.
Do a DejaNews search. Newman said he was going to e-mail him.
>>Some of the posts here since his death have been unkind personal
>>speculations and sometimes outrightly mean. And nearly all have ignored
>>the fact that, while I am a Scientologist, I am a mother and my son,
>>whom I loved and respected and, more than, anthing, wanted to be able to
>>achieve his goals in life - whatever they were and wherever they took
>>him - is gone.
>
>I don't recall any unkind speculations.
No I'm sure you don't but you probably find it difficult to recall breakfast.
>Rather, my impression was that the overwhelming majority of posts were
>complimentary towards Philip's many accomplishments.
You must have missed posts from JimDBB, Valerie & John, Inducto, gonnet,
somebody, Ralph Reed, et al.
>The only comments which I can imagine you taking offense
>at would be those where some have speculated about whether Philip's past as
>a Scientologist--and your relationship to CCHR in particular--might have
>influenced him in whatever decision he made regarding psychiatric treatment
>for his depression. These are reasonable speculations considering the
>nature of this newsgroup, the nature of CCHR and the nature of most
>suicides.
You don't find this offensive? Its perfectly reasonable to the misinformed on
ars who buy allegations faster than a fling with a cheap gigolo. Jim doesn't
really even know what he's talking about. His blood lust is too pervasive to
exercise restraint though.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tragedy brings up suspicions...does anyone know if Philip Gale received a
Letter of Disconnection from his parents? And/or a Declare from the Church of
Scientology, declaring him a Suppressive Person? These would be standard
scientology actions if he left the scientology cult.
From: jim...@aol.com (JimDBB)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: Philip Gale suicide - MIT _Observer_ article 3/18/98
Date: 20 Mar 1998 01:40:21 GMT
Message-ID: <199803200140...@ladder03.news.aol.com>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Please stop discussing him, and before you start taking apart some other
>>person, look at the possible effects you might have.
>
>I'm rather surprised--and rather skeptical--that a grief-stricken mother
>(which I do believe Marie Gale to be) would bother to take the time to read
>a.r.s.
When you awake from the semi-hypnotic stupor you think is reality you may
rethink your statement.
Patrick
EldonB123
Dear Mrs. Gale,
I just went back and looked at some of the posts on this board. I'm sorry to
say there were a few that speculated in a tasteless way, and I can see why they
would seem crass and hurtful. But there were also many sincere and heartfelt
expressions of sympathy from people who were trying their best to be kind and
respectful.
I can only say that I know there are many people whose hearts sincerely go out
to you and your family regardless of their stance on third and fourth dynamic
issues.
Best wishes,
Eldon Braun
Eldo...@aol.com
Conner
On Fri, 20 Mar 1998 15:32:01 -0500, in message
first, may i extend my condolances to you over the
loss of your exceptionally talented son. my daughter
is about the same age, and it would be a terrible blow
to lose her. part of the pain would be the constant
rehashing of circumstances, wondering what i might
have done to have prevented such a situation. i
hope and trust you will have the resources to deal
with these demons expeditiously. when i have been
bereaved, i have been advised, and found it good advice,
to accept the bitter fact that the person is dead, and
to grieve the loss, and leave the blame behind, and
look to what might be done better in the future.
[clip]
>Philip chose not to become involved in his parents religion, and I
>respected that. Yet here he was, pulled into an ugly and controversy
>(which was fomented and encouraged by the people at this site) that had
>NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM.
>
>In the BEST case scenario, it was upsetting to him. At worst, it could
>have actively contributed to his decision to take his own life. How
>would you feel to be 19 years old and have your school, your work
>experience, and your parents beliefs pulled apart and attacked? I have
>trouble ignoring the fact that his decision to end his life apparently
>came within a few days of the Boston Herald article.
i presume you are writing the Boston Herald as well?
but if you think to shame us with this claim, or to somehow
blame us, then you are wrong. you exaggerate the true
facts, and build fantasies on the maybes, to no one's
benefit. phillip was scarcely mentioned here, if at all.
he had left your belief system, doubtless he had turmoil
over it, but it was not turmoil of ars' doing. i am sorry
for your son, but i will not be 'managed' into failing to address
the truth about scientology and helping others to avoid
the perils it presents. certainly not by the angry unfounded
remarks of a grieving mother, which i could easily answer in kind,
but will not out of respect for that grief.
[clip]
-- see...@ix.netcom.com (Conner)
Note: the header address is wrong!
Friends of Dennis Erlich Club (www.netcom.com/~seekon/friends.html)
Jim Byrd
hkhe...@netcom.com (Keith Henson) wrote:
>Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think his name was mentioned in this
>news group prior the stories about his death.
Just barely. The Delphi schools were being discussed, and one of the
pro-Scientology posters brought up Gale's name as someone who had gone
to a Delphi school and later went to MIT.
Nico Garcia
In article <hkhensonE...@netcom.com>,
Keith Henson <hkhe...@netcom.com> wrote:
>Teresa Marrin (mar...@media.mit.edu) wrote:
>: I have read all the various postings and discussion in this newsgroup
>: regarding my recently deceased son, Philip. It was not easy.
>
>It's not easy for us either.
>
>: work for Earthlink (last December) were upsetting to him because he
>: called me and we talked about it.
>
>news group prior the stories about his death.
I'm certain that members of the MIT community brought up
alt.religion.scientology upon finding out that he had any involvement with
earthlink or scientology (which I am spelling normally out of deference to Ms.
Gale's loss).
>: I know he was contacted by the Boston Herald for their article because
>: he called me and we talked about it. I can only assume that there was
>: some connection between this newsgroup (or the individuals on it) and
>: that reporter contacting him. The interview was upsetting to him. That
>: was the last time I talked to my son.
>
>Also correct me on this point. The Boston Herald article was written
>nearly two years ago, and no recent research was done to update the story
>before it was published. So, when was he contacted?
Joseph Mallia, the reporter, met with a number of us two years ago. Many
details of the Boston Herald story were much more recent: the story
has doubtlessly developed over time.
>: Philip chose not to become involved in his parents religion, and I
>: respected that. Yet here he was, pulled into an ugly and controversy
>: (which was fomented and encouraged by the people at this site) that had
>: NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM.
>
>Did Philip even know a.r.s existed? I don't remember seeing any postings
>about or by him. Does anyone who knew him know if he was involved as a
>lurker?
Everybody computer-sophisticated at MIT knows. Between Ron Newman and me, and
a few other active critics it's gotten broad awareness among the SIPB crowd.
>: In the BEST case scenario, it was upsetting to him. At worst, it could
>: have actively contributed to his decision to take his own life. How
>: would you feel to be 19 years old and have your school, your work
>: experience, and your parents beliefs pulled apart and attacked? I have
>: trouble ignoring the fact that his decision to end his life apparently
>: came within a few days of the Boston Herald article.
This is of concern to me too. And yet: the Boston Herald article was
practicallyy genteel in its exposure of legitimate scientology policies,
falsehoods and deceits. The reminder and exposure of truth may have
been very troubling, but this happens to most MIT students as they
become exposed to a broader academic world.
>Does this make sense? The BH articles and Philip's death were a few weeks
>apart. If this act was not impulsive, and the suicidal ideation was of
>weeks duration, why did he not seek treatment?
I have strong questions about Mr. Gale's interactions with his friends,
classmates, and especially his family during this time. Having chosen
not to be involved in scientology, did this distance him from his
family? Was there a note, did he express any reason for suicide?
>: Some of the posts here since his death have been unkind personal
>: speculations and sometimes outrightly mean. And nearly all have ignored
>: the fact that, while I am a Scientologist, I am a mother and my son,
>: whom I loved and respected and, more than, anthing, wanted to be able to
>: achieve his goals in life - whatever they were and wherever they took
>: him - is gone.
Some have been harsh: I apologize for this. And yet, the concerns they and
others raise are significant. There is a history of terrible deaths involving
scientology, such as Susan Meister from a bullet wound, Lisa McPherson from
starvation and dehydration, the suicide in France two years ago for which
members of a French org were convicted of manslaughter. These are exactly
the sort of losses and situations for which CCHR, which Ms. Gale leads,
blames and accuses psychiatry. Yet these directly involve the religon
and members of the scientology, the sponsor of CCHR.
>: Please stop discussing him, and before you start taking apart some other
>: person, look at the possible effects you might have.
Ms. Gale, I for one am sorry that it hurts you. But much of the discussion
is to expose dangers, not necessarily that affected your son, but that
put others at risk.
>in attempts to prevent future ones. Though it may be painful for you to
>do it, your testimony and insights might be of considerable use in
>understanding and preventing further tragic cases. Since you have worked
>up the courage to post once, I believe I express the view of the majority
>of the people who post to a.r.s in asking you to post what you know and to
>participate in the discussions on the topic. There may be some jerks you
>will have to ignore, but I think in general you will find a great deal of
>sympathy here. You certainly have mine.
Keith, you're asking for a lot here, from anyone in Ms. Gale's
situation. Ms. Gale, many of us will be here next year if you
ever feel free or wish to discuss your situation.
EldonB123
>From what I see on this newsgroup, most if not all posts on PG were *nice*,
especially the news articles. It's your posts that is the
>typical example of hate, hate, hate.
>
>Tilman
Tilman, I am sure that Freedom Magazine wouldn't hesitate to nit-pick a
mother's expression of grief and cause her further anguish--but I thought you
had better manners. This is spiteful language to use to someone who has
suffered a loss and you know it. Hate all you want, but do it with a little
more class, please.
LilAlex742
Beck writes:
>Was Philip ever mentioned on this newsgroup before his death? I don't
>recall... if so, it must have been just in passing.
I hadn't heard of Philip until after his death, but I did a Deja search and
found a few passing references to him and Earthlink. Though I have not read
everything, I have seen nothing yet that could be construed as being even
passingly insulting.
LilAlex
Incredulity of our data and validity. This is our finest asset and gives us
more protection than any other single asset. If certain parties thought we
were real we would have infinitely more trouble
-- L. Ron Hubbard
JimDBB
>Subject: Re: From Philip Gale's mother
>From: ra...@shell1.tiac.net (Nico Garcia)
>Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 17:21 EST
Very well said, Nico. Thanks f rom many of us.
JimDBB
JimDBB
>Subject: Re: From Philip Gale's mother
>Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 21:09 EST
>Tilman, I am sure that Freedom Magazine wouldn't hesitate to nit-pick a
>mother's expression of grief and cause her further anguish--but I thought you
>had better manners. This is spiteful language to use to someone who has
>suffered a loss and you know it. Hate all you want, but do it with a little
>more class, please.
>
>Eldo...@aol.com
Tilman's response to Philip Gale's mother was stated a bit harshly but he said
things that need to be said in response to Mrs. Gale's weird statements and
accusations about the ARS and the Boston Herald. It is unpleasant to comment
on this tragedy at this time but Mrs. Gale has come forward with some
outrageous lies and accusations with, pitifully, are so typical of the
scientology cult.
Mrs. Gale is involved with Scientology's CCHR (Citizens Commission on Human
Rights). The CCHR is the Church of Scientology's despicable hate organization
which uses tax-exempt money to spread lies, distortions and hate literature in
a vicious campaignt to disredit and destroy the Psychiatric profession.
It's just possible that psychiatric/medical care would have helped Philip but,
sadly, as a scientologist, he was programmed with psychiatry as an enemy and
denied this help.
I don't believe that Philip Gale's name was ever mentioned on the ARS or in the
Boston Herald until after his death. But Mrs. Gale is accusing both of causing
Philip's death. The ARS-Alt. Religion. Scientology NG (newsgroup) is an open
free discussion group which is open to anyone to read and/or post in. How
could Philip have been forced into into it?
JimDBB
JimDBB
>Subject: Re: From Philip Gale's mother
>(Tilman Hausherr) wrote:
>
>[a lot of angry sentences which I don't want to reproduce here, which
> I consider a totally inappropriate response to the emotional pleas
> of a grieving mother. I'm sorry that Marie Gale had to read this.]
>Ron Newman rne...@thecia.net
Come off of it, Ron Newman. Tilman stated some things that needed to be said
in the wake of Mrs. Gale's outrageous accusations. Tilman, myself and others
had posted things that were perhaps untimely or a bit harsh but none were
"mean" as Mrs. Gale claims. Honest concern and compassion has been put out
here for Philip Gale and his family. Most people on the ARS have been working
hard to prevent more tragedies from occurring from involvement with the
scientology cult.
JimDBB
JimDBB
>Subject: Re: From Philip Gale's mother
>I'm rather surprised--and rather skeptical--that a grief-stricken mother
>(which I do believe Marie Gale to be) would bother to take the time to read
>a.r.s.
A very good point, Rebecca. thanks for posting it.
Scott A. McClare
From the account of Teresa Marrin (mar...@media.mit.edu), Marie Gale
writes:
> I have read all the various postings and discussion in this newsgroup
> regarding my recently deceased son, Philip. It was not easy.
I can't understand your loss, Ma'am, but you have my sympathies.
> I know he was contacted by the Boston Herald for their article because
> he called me and we talked about it. I can only assume that there was
> some connection between this newsgroup (or the individuals on it) and
> that reporter contacting him.
If I may ask, why do you assume the connection is between this newsgroup
and your son, rather than someone else and your son? Although I never
personally heard the name prior to reports of his death, I understand he
was only obliquely mentioned now and then as an employee of Earthlink or
such like.
I also understand that his name is one that the Church of Scientology has
"dropped" in the past to advertise the effectiveness of its study methods.
Is it not equally likely that Mr. Mallia obtained his name from public
Scientology sources?
> Philip chose not to become involved in his parents religion, and I
> respected that. Yet here he was, pulled into an ugly and controversy
> (which was fomented and encouraged by the people at this site) that had
> NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM.
Respectfully, Ma'am, this is flatly unfair.
The controversy about Scientology, whether it is expressed on the
Internet or in the traditional media, has been going on for as long as
there has been a Church of Scientology. And it has very little to do with
the religion per se. If you have been reading this newsgroup, as you
claim, then you have seen it restated over and over and over again that
the primary concern about the Church is with its behaviour as a part of
society, not with mere beliefs (although they do play a minor role).
Is the anti-social behaviour of an organization not a matter of broad
public interest? Is it not justifiable to bring such behaviour to the
public attention? Is it not justifiable to discuss, even debate and
disagree upon, this behaviour in a public forum such as
alt.religion.scientology?
The behaviour of individual persons cannot be predicted reliably. If your
son's death indeed has something to do with this ongoing discussion, no
one here had any way of knowing what would happen. But if we were to stop
all discussion of Scientology because it might be found upsetting to
persons unknown, where do we stop? Is all religious debate taboo because
believers may have their feelings hurt, or worse? What about other,
non-religious controversies? Surely such hyper-sensitivity does not serve
the public interest.
> In the BEST case scenario, it was upsetting to him. At worst, it could
> have actively contributed to his decision to take his own life. How
> would you feel to be 19 years old and have your school, your work
> experience, and your parents beliefs pulled apart and attacked?
Ma'am, this happens to thousands of new university students every year.
Religious controversy has been around for as long as there has been
religion, and the free market of ideas that exists in the university
environment is conducive to challenging established assumptions. Students
make it through to graduation, and the truth is that most of them don't
turn into radicals, atheists, or anything else they were not before they
started. The exceptions, such as your son, do not prove any deficiencies
in the process of free discussion and debate of controversial subjects.
Sincerely,
Scott McClare
--
Scott A. McClare SP4 GGBC#42 "I see you now and then in dreams
cj...@freenet.carleton.ca Your voice sounds just like it used to
http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~cj871/ I believe I will hear it again
PGP 1024/E7950B29 via finger/keyserver God how I love you" - Mark Heard
pli...@rocketmail.com
In article <199803210724...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, jim...@aol.com
says...
>Very well said, Nico. Thanks f rom many of us.
>
>JimDBB
You're a two-bit deprogrammer. Your agenda here has nothing to do with
condolences. You probably hand out your business card at funerals.
Patrick
Rebecca Hartong
EldonB123 wrote in message
<199803210108...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>Dear Mrs. Gale,
> I just went back and looked at some of the posts on this board. I'm sorry
to
>say there were a few that speculated in a tasteless way, and I can see why
they
>would seem crass and hurtful. But there were also many sincere and
heartfelt
>expressions of sympathy from people who were trying their best to be kind
and
>respectful.
The way I see it, a.r.s. is equivalent to a conversation on a busy street
corner. Any suggestions that people should "watch what they say" for fear
of offending one or another of the many passersby is absurd.
Rebecca Hartong
pli...@rocketmail.com wrote in message <6evptf$4...@drn.newsguy.com>...
>In article <6eupnt$q...@enews3.newsguy.com>, "Rebecca says...
>>The only comments which I can imagine you taking offense
>>at would be those where some have speculated about whether Philip's past
as
>>a Scientologist--and your relationship to CCHR in particular--might have
>>influenced him in whatever decision he made regarding psychiatric
treatment
>>for his depression. These are reasonable speculations considering the
>>nature of this newsgroup, the nature of CCHR and the nature of most
>>suicides.
>
>You don't find this offensive? Its perfectly reasonable to the misinformed
on
>ars who buy allegations faster than a fling with a cheap gigolo. Jim
doesn't
>really even know what he's talking about. His blood lust is too pervasive
to
>exercise restraint though.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>This tragedy brings up suspicions...does anyone know if Philip Gale
received a
>Letter of Disconnection from his parents? And/or a Declare from the Church
of
>Scientology, declaring him a Suppressive Person? These would be standard
>scientology actions if he left the scientology cult.
No, I don't find that offensive as a post here on a.r.s. It would certainly
have been offensive if JimDBB had marched into the Gale family livingroom
and demanded answers to these questions but, of course, he didn't.
Speculations of this sort--here in this little corner of the net--are
relevant and appropriate.
>>I'm rather surprised--and rather skeptical--that a grief-stricken mother
>>(which I do believe Marie Gale to be) would bother to take the time to
read
>>a.r.s.
>
>When you awake from the semi-hypnotic stupor you think is reality you may
>rethink your statement.
Ah.... so apparently YOU don't have an explanation for why Mrs Gale would
bother to read a.r.s. (a forum well-known to be critical of Scientology) at
such a time either! Thank you for confirming that.
Ron Newman
In article <6f0brk$5...@enews4.newsguy.com>, "Rebecca Hartong"
<har...@erols.com> wrote:
> >This tragedy brings up suspicions...does anyone know if Philip Gale
> received a
> >Letter of Disconnection from his parents?
>
> No, I don't find that offensive as a post here on a.r.s.
It did bother me quite a lot, and I'm glad that this particular speculation
proved to be groundless.
> Ah.... so apparently YOU don't have an explanation for why Mrs Gale would
> bother to read a.r.s. (a forum well-known to be critical of Scientology) at
> such a time either! Thank you for confirming that.
It is possible that someone (certainly not me, but maybe someone at
Earthlink or MIT Media Lab) forwarded the posts to her via e-mail.
Xenu Mania
On Fri, 20 Mar 1998, Teresa Marrin wrote:
[.......]
> Please stop discussing him, and before you start taking apart some other
> person, look at the possible effects you might have.
>
> Marie Gale
What did you hope to gain by your post?
1. that people would think that Scientologists are persecuted?
2. that people who talk critically about Scientologists are unkind?
3. that people would stop posting to alt.religion.scientology?
You would not have posted had your son not died.
Joe Cisar
reply to: iy...@cleveland.freenet.edu
German Scientology News - http://cisar.org
Quite frankly Madam, I just don't give a deer.
Tilman Hausherr
In <rnewman-ya0240800...@enews.newsguy.com>,
rne...@thecia.net (Ron Newman) wrote:
>In article <3562e5de...@news.snafu.de>, til...@berlin.snafu.de
>(Tilman Hausherr) wrote:
>
>[a lot of angry sentences which I don't want to reproduce here, which
> I consider a totally inappropriate response to the emotional pleas
> of a grieving mother. I'm sorry that Marie Gale had to read this.]
I hope she will. We already had this after the death of Sonny Bono. Just
because someone is dead doesn't change any facts. I have been criticized
at that time for my behaviour. We had the same after the death of cult
apologist Dean Kelley. And we will have the same at the death of other
people. And I will not change, because that would be dishonest against
myself.
Besides, *she* started. She made allegations that ars and the Boston
Herald are responsible for the death of her son. This is not an
"emotional plea" by a person who lost her mind because her beloved son
died. This is an cold-hearted attack of a scientologist who saw an
*opportunity* and used it, and I'm sure her fellow scientologists love
her for that.
Now if she has real data that ars is responsible for the death of her
son, would certainly reconsider my general behaviour.
You, Ron, are falling for her PR which she did already on ars in 1994,
which is "the nice innocent girl next door, who really likes scientology
and applies it on her life". The truth is of course different. She is
OT8 and "director" of CCHR, an internationally active hate group that
specializes in libelling psychiatrists. You don't go on that seat by
being a "nice innocent girl next door".
--
Tilman Hausherr [KoX, SP4]
til...@berlin.snafu.de http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/#cos
Resistance is futile. You will be enturbulated. Xenu always prevails.
Find broken links on your web site: http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/xenulink.html
Annoy scientology by buying books: http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/bookstore.html
Ian Ross
>Teresa Marrin wrote in message <3512D2...@earthlink.net>...
>>I have read all the various postings and discussion in this newsgroup
>>regarding my recently deceased son, Philip. It was not easy.
>
>
Please accept my deepest sympathies for the loss of your son. When a family
member passes on, the pain is incredibly deep, and we here at ars share in
your grief.
Our purpose, here at ars, is to discuss and evaluate scientology in an
analytical and critical manner, and, with the occasional exception, do so
fairly and intelligently. The majority of us here in ars believe that
scientology is simply not a valid life system. We are not intolerant people,
nor do we seek to inflict hurt on individuals who believe differently than
us. Our mission is to alert others to the dangers of this particular belief
system.
Scientology preys upon the impressionable. It sells a magical mystery tour,
where, even after many years in the organisation, the destination is kept
secret from the member. In it's simplest terms, the recruit is being sold,
at a steep price, a bag of goods whose contents are unknown. The member is
so far in, and his entire life centered on scientology, that when that
sinking feeling of something being badly wrong hits, there is no other
outside structure to which he feels he can turn. And that, is the crux of
our argument..............
Please be assured that within ars, there is no personal animosity directed
to you or your family. We mourn the loss of a talented young man, and
remember him in our prayers.
Ian Ross
Nico Garcia
In article <199803210807...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,>>From: rne...@thecia.net (Ron Newman)
>
>>(Tilman Hausherr) wrote:
>>
>>[a lot of angry sentences which I don't want to reproduce here, which
>> I consider a totally inappropriate response to the emotional pleas
>> of a grieving mother. I'm sorry that Marie Gale had to read this.]
>
>
>Come off of it, Ron Newman. Tilman stated some things that needed to be said
>in the wake of Mrs. Gale's outrageous accusations. Tilman, myself and others
>had posted things that were perhaps untimely or a bit harsh but none were
>"mean" as Mrs. Gale claims. Honest concern and compassion has been put out
>here for Philip Gale and his family. Most people on the ARS have been working
>hard to prevent more tragedies from occurring from involvement with the
>scientology cult.
Tilman and some others have at times been harsh. It lets Ms. Gale and others
in her ilk remain angry at us, and ignore our very real concerns, if we treat
them too harshly in their grief.
Nico Garcia
In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.98032...@darkstar.zippy>,
Xenu Mania <fi...@address.in.sigfile> wrote:
>
>On Fri, 20 Mar 1998, Teresa Marrin wrote:
>
>[.......]
>
>> Please stop discussing him, and before you start taking apart some other
>> person, look at the possible effects you might have.
>>
>> Marie Gale
>
>What did you hope to gain by your post?
>
>1. that people would think that Scientologists are persecuted?
>
>2. that people who talk critically about Scientologists are unkind?
>
>3. that people would stop posting to alt.religion.scientology?
4. That out of respect for her grief, and her son's death, we would stop
mentioning him and her. I have no doubt that the speculations about
his scientology links were painful. However, I do have a lurking
suspicion that his absence from scientology after his Delphi
education was a severe source of distress for Ms. Gale.
It is conceivable that he had in fact read this group, or been exposed to
scientology's true history of fraud and deceit through MIT's social life. Like
discovering that one's parents are bigots, or homophobic, or welfare frauds,
a decision on his part to live a different life and be a different person
could have bothered Ms. Gale a great deal. If he were seeing a psychiatrist
for depression or suicidal urges, it would have been even worse for Ms. Gale's
comfort.
>You would not have posted had your son not died.
Or if we had not explored potential links between scientology and his death.
Oddly, I believe I met Ms. Gale several years ago at a scientology protest in
Boston. I seem to remember a woman there was saying "my son studied with
Hubbard Tech and went to MIT at 15": I did not believe her, since she would
not identify him. I'm sorry that I did not get an opportunity to meet
her son: I've met several MIT students admitted early, and while they
were all a bit strange, I've gotten along with them. I've found their
youthful enthusiasm quite refreshing.
Ron? Do you remember this protest?
Scott A. McClare
(pli...@rocketmail.com) writes:
>>Very well said, Nico. Thanks f rom many of us.
>>
>>JimDBB
> You're a two-bit deprogrammer. Your agenda here has nothing to do with
> condolences. You probably hand out your business card at funerals.
Hey Scientology <tm> twit:
This is the ARSCC (wdne) you're dealing with here.
We hire no one who isn't at LEAST a 32-bit deprogrammer.
Scott
ExScio
To the Gale family:
I understand and sympathize with your loss and your
attempts to put it into perspective.
But I feel your comments are untrue and misplaced.
I have neither seen nor participated in any speculation
about your son's death or its meaning prior to your
statement. I have seen only news reports from MIT
re-circulated. If anyone has told you differently they
are mistaken.
I have no idea if Scientology played a part in your
son's death, and it really doesn't matter to me at
this point. Any loss of life, especially at so young
an age in a person with as much apparent potential
as your son is tragic.
I offer you my condolences.
<<<<< ExScio (with the emphasis on EX) - St. Louis area SP >>>>>
Rob Clark
On 21 Mar 1998 08:07:54 GMT, jim...@aol.com (JimDBB) wrote:
this is about that suicide. considering the fact that the mother is currently
here, and has made an emotional statement, i really don't think the world will
end if some people let the goddamn body get cold before dissecting it.
no names, i'm not pissed at anyone in particular so much as a seeming
environment of what can be described as "bad taste." and yes, i know, i'm the
king of it i ought to know it when i see it.
rob
Rob Clark
On Sat, 21 Mar 1998 16:16:16 GMT, til...@berlin.snafu.de (Tilman Hausherr)
wrote:
>I hope she will. We already had this after the death of Sonny Bono. Just
>because someone is dead doesn't change any facts. I have been criticized
>at that time for my behaviour. We had the same after the death of cult
>apologist Dean Kelley. And we will have the same at the death of other
>people. And I will not change, because that would be dishonest against
>myself.
sonny bono was a public figure. while he might have had friends who had to read
stuff on ars trashing him, to a certain extent people would have been trashing
him in any environment about this.
the person in question here had no intention of becoming a public figure, and
perhaps ought to be treated with a bit more respect. unlike bono, this person
never hurt anyone here or sponsored bogus idiot legislation that helped fuck
everyone in the world up the ass.
rob
Tilman Hausherr
In <3514517e....@news.mindspring.com>, xe...@mindspring.com (Rob
Clark) wrote:
>sonny bono was a public figure. while he might have had friends who had to read
>stuff on ars trashing him, to a certain extent people would have been trashing
>him in any environment about this.
I haven't trashed Philip Gale. Rather the opposite. But I critized his
mother, who is a public figure. See her here:
http://www.cchr.org/rape/witvfhr.htm
Christopher Leithiser
Scott A. McClare wrote:
>
> (pli...@rocketmail.com) writes:
>
> >>Very well said, Nico. Thanks f rom many of us.
> >>
> >>JimDBB
>
> > You're a two-bit deprogrammer. Your agenda here has nothing to do with
> > condolences. You probably hand out your business card at funerals.
>
> Hey Scientology <tm> twit:
>
> This is the ARSCC (wdne) you're dealing with here.
>
> We hire no one who isn't at LEAST a 32-bit deprogrammer.
>
> Scott
>
>
doesn't stain the keyboard.
Xenu Mania
On 21 Mar 1998, Nico Garcia wrote:
> 4. That out of respect for her grief, and her son's death, we would stop
> mentioning him and her. I have no doubt that the speculations about
> his scientology links were painful. However, I do have a lurking
> suspicion that his absence from scientology after his Delphi
> education was a severe source of distress for Ms. Gale.
>
If, by discussing death, we can help someone else avoid it, then let's
discuss death. Marie Gale, if you want to post, too, then that is your
welcome contribution to the news group.
There are some things which need to be understood, though. A discussion,
by definition, has at least two sides. Without disagreement, there is no
discussion. Disagreement is not equal to attack.
> It is conceivable that he had in fact read this group, or been exposed to
> scientology's true history of fraud and deceit through MIT's social life. Like
> discovering that one's parents are bigots, or homophobic, or welfare frauds,
> a decision on his part to live a different life and be a different person
> could have bothered Ms. Gale a great deal. If he were seeing a psychiatrist
> for depression or suicidal urges, it would have been even worse for Ms. Gale's
> comfort.
That may be. In addition to that it is also conceiveable that OSA readers
of this news group gathered posts about her son and presented them to her
in a bad light. Scientology has even been known to draft letters for
people with the instructions, "Write this in your own words."
Xenu Mania
On Sat, 21 Mar 1998, Tilman Hausherr wrote:
>
> Besides, *she* started. She made allegations that ars and the Boston
> Herald are responsible for the death of her son. This is not an
> "emotional plea" by a person who lost her mind because her beloved son
> died. This is an cold-hearted attack of a scientologist who saw an
> *opportunity* and used it, and I'm sure her fellow scientologists love
> her for that.
I differ with Tilman here in the respect that I think that this is not an
attack by a lone Scientologist, but by a governing Scientology body.
The policy on this would have arisen from the Lisa McPherson case, in
which Scientology accused a.r.s. of exploiting Lisa's death for its own
purposes, then proceeded to turn around and exploit Lisa's death for
Scientology purposes, to make it appear as if Scientology was being
persecuted.
Scientology habitually accuses people who disagree with them of
anti-social behavior such as perversion and exploitation.
Nico Garcia
I had a fascinating chat with some MIT computer community members
today. According to one, there are some web pages that Mr. Gale
had created in the last year or two that contained anti-scientology
references. This person was unable to give me URL's, which I have
asked him to check out.
Does anyone have pointers to web pages that Mr. Gale may have created
lately indicating his state of mind?
Also: there is a set of software at MIT called "Zephyr". Like IRC,
it produces the same typed message on everyone's screens at the same
time. It's also much more flexible, powerful, and secure than IRC.
One group on it is called "White Magic". I was a member of this years
ago, and it is still active. Like many mailing lists and IRC groups,
it is a bunch of people who share conversation, dinner trips, etc.
Someone on White Magic was at MIT's East Campus dormitory, logged in,
and happened to be looking out the window when Mr. Gale fell
past. They turned to their terminal and posted the information to the
group in horror.
This aspect and the overall nature of Mr. Gale's death raises real
questions in my mind. Suicide is very, very rarely so simple and
effective: it is usually a cry for support, which is why people do
poorly effective things like cutting their wrists slightly or taking
pills. Successful suicide is usually an intensely *private* act,
often with a note left behind.
Throwing a chair out the window and jumping out the 15th floor of the
Green Building, however, is intensely *public*. It's difficulty to
stop, true, but it immediately calls a whole hell of a lot of
attention to itself. But suicides who gather attention are usually
seeking help, and therefore wait on top of the building for people to
talk them down, etc.
Also: MIT suicides from the Green Building have "traditionally" been
done from the roof. While illegal to trespass there, the roof is fairly
easily accessible to anyone from MIT willing to expend the time learning
how to do it: Mr. Gale would have had no difficulty doing so, with his
intelligence and the assistance of the MIT hacker community.
What in the hell was going through this person's mind? Was he trying
to make some statement he felt he could only make through dying, some
form of martyrdom? The case is ***weird***, purely on this basis.
There's also a possibility I haven't seen raised here, and difficult
to evaluate (partly because MIT tries to keep all investigations on
campus as quit and confidential as possible, for many sound reasons)
Could Mr. Gale have been *pushed* or *thrown* out the window? Dropping
15 stories will conceal a lot of physical evidence. I have to assume the
police are examining the possibility, if only to conclusively rule it
out, but it would definitely be worth verifying.
I'm also very curious what happened to the corpse: was it a closed casket
funeral, and was the body autopsied?
Ron Newman
In article <6f131l$j...@news-central.tiac.net>, ra...@shell1.tiac.net (Nico
Garcia) wrote:
> Oddly, I believe I met Ms. Gale several years ago at a scientology protest in
> Boston. I seem to remember a woman there was saying "my son studied with
> Hubbard Tech and went to MIT at 15": I did not believe her, since she would
> not identify him. I'm sorry that I did not get an opportunity to meet
> her son: I've met several MIT students admitted early, and while they
> were all a bit strange, I've gotten along with them. I've found their
> youthful enthusiasm quite refreshing.
>
> Ron? Do you remember this protest?
I don't remember anyone at any picket that I attended making such a
statement. This might have happened at a Boston picket that I didn't attend
(such as March '96), or it might have happened at one I did attend but
out of my earshot.
There's a photo of Marie Gale (black-and-white, unfortunately) at
http://www.cchr.org/rape/p23_mg.jpg . She's in her early 40s and
blonde. Does this look like the same person you met at the Boston picket?
jbwebb
A word of warning to Mrs Gale, if you are reading this thread: Please
do not read this post. I do not wish to offend you or distress you any
further. Thank you.
Well, I was wrong. I posted on ARS that COS would place the blame of
this tragic suicide on the heads of the psychs. Instead, the culprits
seem to be ARS and the Boston Herald. This has stunned me. I never, in
my wildest dreams, believed that the Herald would be blamed. Ron, is
there ANY evidence that Philip was interviewed by the Herald? If so,
have the reporters mentioned his distress to you? Do you know anything
about this accusation?
Take care
Joni
Nico Garcia
In article <rnewman-ya0240800...@enews.newsguy.com>,
Ron Newman <rne...@thecia.net> wrote:
>In article <6f131l$j...@news-central.tiac.net>, ra...@shell1.tiac.net (Nico
>Garcia) wrote:
>
>> Oddly, I believe I met Ms. Gale several years ago at a scientology protest in
>> Boston. I seem to remember a woman there was saying "my son studied with
>> Hubbard Tech and went to MIT at 15": I did not believe her, since she would
>> not identify him. I'm sorry that I did not get an opportunity to meet
>> her son: I've met several MIT students admitted early, and while they
>> were all a bit strange, I've gotten along with them. I've found their
>> youthful enthusiasm quite refreshing.
>>
>> Ron? Do you remember this protest?
>
>I don't remember anyone at any picket that I attended making such a
>statement. This might have happened at a Boston picket that I didn't attend
>(such as March '96), or it might have happened at one I did attend but
>out of my earshot.
I'm not certain of the memory: I remember discussing a scientologist who had
entered MIT early, I *BELIEVE* the woman claimed to be his mother, but
I'm not positive.
I remember a woman of about the age and build of the woman in the photo, but
less brightly blond. The hair of the woman in the photo, whom you identify
as Ms. Gale, is definitely dyed blonde: look at the roots, apparent even
in this black and white photo.
The photo also does not capture movement or size: much of how I remember
people face to face is the way they move, so it's tough for me to be positive.
So I believe that it was Ms. Gale I spoke with, but am not positive.
WONDERFULR
>Subject: Re: From Philip Gale's mother
>Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 11:16 EST
>Message-id: <35b0d1f6...@news.snafu.de>
>
>In <rnewman-ya0240800...@enews.newsguy.com>,
>rne...@thecia.net (Ron Newman) wrote:
>
>>In article <3562e5de...@news.snafu.de>, til...@berlin.snafu.de
>>
>>[a lot of angry sentences which I don't want to reproduce here, which
>> I consider a totally inappropriate response to the emotional pleas
>> of a grieving mother. I'm sorry that Marie Gale had to read this.]
>
Of course you do, Tilman. You ~want~ to hurt Scientologists in any way you
can.
>We already had this after the death of Sonny Bono. Just
>because someone is dead doesn't change any facts.
No, it doesn't. But there are accepted standards of decency. Almost
everywhere.
> I have been criticized
>at that time for my behavior. We had the same after the death of cult
>apologist Dean Kelley. And we will have the same at the death of other
>people. And I will not change, because
... you hate all Scientologists - and don't ever want to miss an opportunity to
give one of them shit. No matter what.
> that would be dishonest against
>myself.
Exactly. Keep ~your dishonesty~ aimed AT Scientologists. Its your JOB!
>
>Besides, *she* started.
Oh well, if she "started it" - don't let a little detail like the death of her
son slow *you* down. Your honesty is on the line. What would people think?
You holding back for a day or so, just because a Scientologist lost a loved
one? No way! She started it!
>She made allegations that ars and the Boston
>Herald are responsible for the death of her son. This is not an
>"emotional plea" by a person who lost her mind because her beloved son
>died.
No. It is another chance for you to attack.
>This is an cold-hearted attack of a scientologist who saw an
>*opportunity* and used it,
THIS (directly above) is the most hypocritical thing in any of your posts in a
LONG time.
I know YOU would never do *THAT*. None of you would. You are just too
ethical.
>and I'm sure her fellow scientologists love
>her for that.
>
And there are some here who love you for what you do. There are also some who
wince - because it is too low even for them.
FauxReal59
After all I've been hearing about how Hubbard finished the job on his own son,
it wouldn't surprise me if this Gale kid was pushed. Whaddya call that?
End-Cycle?
Harsh you say? No harsher than whoever it is on here trolling as the kid's
mom. And if that really was his mom's letter, and she's reading this, she
needs a shrink.
Good night now.
Mark Ebner SP4
Rebecca Hartong
FauxReal59 wrote in message
>Harsh you say? No harsher than whoever it is on here trolling as the
kid's
>mom. And if that really was his mom's letter, and she's reading this, she
>needs a shrink.
Exactly. Have any of you who've lost a loved one through suicide (or any
other reason) EVER felt compelled in the midst of your grief to take time
out to read upsetting opinions about how your religion may have contributed
to your loved ones death? Ever??
Tilman Hausherr
In <xy9afajwe...@shell1.tiac.net>, Nico Garcia
<ra...@shell1.tiac.net> wrote:
>Could Mr. Gale have been *pushed* or *thrown* out the window? Dropping
>15 stories will conceal a lot of physical evidence. I have to assume the
>police are examining the possibility, if only to conclusively rule it
>out, but it would definitely be worth verifying.
Wasn't there one article that had said that people in the room witnessed
him smashing the chair into the window? If not, then they should
definitively investigate possible murder.
--
Tilman Hausherr [KoX, SP4]
til...@berlin.snafu.de http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/#cos
Resistance is futile. You will be enturbulated. Xenu always prevails.
Tilman Hausherr
In <199803220714...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, wonde...@aol.com
(WONDERFULR) wrote:
>>I hope she will.
>
>Of course you do, Tilman. You ~want~ to hurt Scientologists in any way you
>can.
If it is true for you, it is true for you.
>>We already had this after the death of Sonny Bono. Just
>>because someone is dead doesn't change any facts.
>
>No, it doesn't. But there are accepted standards of decency. Almost
>everywhere.
No. This is just for TV. The truth is that Sonny Bono was an asshole all
his life, and just because he is death doesn't change it. Marie Gale was
in CCHR for years, and just because her son died doesn't change that.
>> I have been criticized
>>at that time for my behavior. We had the same after the death of cult
>>apologist Dean Kelley. And we will have the same at the death of other
>>people. And I will not change, because
>
>... you hate all Scientologists - and don't ever want to miss an opportunity to
>give one of them shit. No matter what.
Please name the exact time, place, form, and event." (Phoenix Lectures
p. 183, mentioned in technical dictionary). Besides, the people who
"hate" are the scientologists, especially those who run CCHR. Visit
www.cchr.org for details.
>>Besides, *she* started.
>
>Oh well, if she "started it" - don't let a little detail like the death of her
>son slow *you* down. Your honesty is on the line. What would people think?
>You holding back for a day or so, just because a Scientologist lost a loved
>one? No way! She started it!
So you mean she should be allowed to lie, because her son died? Kind of
a "bonus"? Should this also be allowed in court?
>>This is an cold-hearted attack of a scientologist who saw an
>>*opportunity* and used it,
>
>THIS (directly above) is the most hypocritical thing in any of your posts in a
>LONG time.
It is a FACT. Read her message. It was done on purpose. The Boston
Herald article was quite an attack - so she used the death of her son to
counter-attack. She provided no, absolutely no evidence for her
allegation. And a lie remains a lie, even if she would suddenly lose
arms and legs. What she did was the same that scientology did when Noah
Lottick jumped to his death: they blamed the scientology critics. Same
when Jairus Godeka shot Helen Burke: they blamed the scientology critics
(it didn't matter that they did never allege that he had an internet
account).
© Anti-Cult ®
On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 07:57:30 -0500.
"Rebecca Hartong" <har...@erols.com>.
From: http://extra.newsguy.com.
Wrote on the subject: Re: From Philip Gale's mother:
[p/m]
Rebecca, enough of TR's and auditing will take away the feelings that we
normally functioning people have for our friends and family. Yes, I have
seen with my own eyes how a well trained scientologist behaved when the
father of that scientologist died. Not much of any feelings there, I
promise you. I have witnessed first hand how well trained scientologists
behave in situations that normally would make any non flattened human
being show their feelings. That is one of the most scary parts with the
scientology mind control training. They train away your ability to be a
human being, they TR the feelings out of your system, and it takes years
away from this sick cult to get them back again. Some never manage to
take back their life again.
I have feelings for the death of this young boy, I can relate to
whatever feelings he had before he decided to take his life. I'm not so
sure his mother is able to feel anything though. Reading ars would
certainly not be anything I would even dream of doing, so soon after the
death of my own child. You can call me a cynic for what I write here,
but I know the evil nature of the criminal cult of scientology.
Enough said on this thread from me.
------------------------------------------------------------------
"Somebody some day will say 'this is illegal'. By then be sure
the orgs say what is legal or not."
-- L. Ron Hubbard, HCOPL 4 January 1966
------------------------------------------------------------------
***** Body thetans? We don't need no stinking Body Thetans! ******
********** http://www.users.wineasy.se/noname/index.htm **********
*** Public PGP key: http://www.users.wineasy.se/noname/pgp.htm ***
****** The.Galacti...@ThePentagon.com (Anti-Cult) *******
------------------------------------------------------------------
Victimized by the Co$. "Deadfiled" in at least one Org. Seen too
much, heard to much, lived too much. Security Coded hard disks
too much. Have been reading NOTS too much. Having chronic
pneumonia. As Arnold said: I'll be back......
------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Zadarnowski
Xenu Mania <fi...@address.in.sigfile> wrote:
>That may be. In addition to that it is also conceiveable that OSA readers
>of this news group gathered posts about her son and presented them to her
>in a bad light. Scientology has even been known to draft letters for
>people with the instructions, "Write this in your own words."
>
>Joe Cisar
All things considered, I can't see why Ms Gale would have posted
to ARS at all. After all, is she also in a position to sit in and
influence every conversation by every group in every location?
I don't know what the connection was between Phillip Gale and
Scientology, but it appears to be controversial at this time.
Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine
In article <35b0d1f6...@news.snafu.de>, Tilman Hausherr writes:
>In <rnewman-ya02408000R2003982312220001@>, (Ron Newman) wrote:
>>Tilman wrote........
>>[a lot of angry sentences which I don't want to reproduce here, which
>> I consider a totally inappropriate response to the emotional pleas
>> of a grieving mother. I'm sorry that Marie Gale had to read this.]
>
>because someone is dead doesn't change any facts. I have been criticized
>at that time for my behaviour. We had the same after the death of cult
>apologist Dean Kelley. And we will have the same at the death of other
>myself.
I'm suspicious when I hear "it's inconsiderate to criticise any group
that chooses to call itself a church, even if your silence means people
get hurt or defrauded"; the entire basic for being considerate,
that a business fraud chose to call itself "church" for protection,
deserves no sympathy at all. I'm still suspicious when I'm told the
same thing about someone's death---should I really be silent when my
silence might contribute towards letting other deaths occur?---nor will
I be hypocritically silent about the evil done by someone like Bonehead
just because he is dead: the day Margaret Thatcher dies, I will hold a
street party. There is more ground for sympathy when, as here, an
innocent person has died. But sympathy for one victim is not the only
factor. I am more concerned about the living who might be driven to
their deaths but who can still be spared if we protest enough.
And yes, I have not forgotten it is truly terrible that a young and
talented person killed themsleves in this way.
>Besides, *she* started. She made allegations that ars and the Boston
>Herald are responsible for the death of her son. This is not an
>"emotional plea" by a person who lost her mind because her beloved son
>died. This is an cold-hearted attack of a scientologist who saw an
>*opportunity* and used it, and I'm sure her fellow scientologists love
>her for that.
In article <3514A3...@idt.net>,
jbwebb <jbw...@idt.net> writes:
>Well, I was wrong. I posted on ARS that COS would place the blame of
>this tragic suicide on the heads of the psychs. Instead, the culprits
>seem to be ARS and the Boston Herald. This has stunned me. I never, in
>my wildest dreams, believed that the Herald would be blamed. Ron, is
>there ANY evidence that Philip was interviewed by the Herald? If so,
>have the reporters mentioned his distress to you? Do you know anything
>about this accusation?
Someone else said, this is probably the policy after Lisa MacPherson---
if a death occurs, seek to blame it on any criticism of CoS. This could
be effective if people are only partly informed. The long term result
is that people *won't* be considerately silent but, once the question
has been raised, the media will ask hard practical questions and come to
conclusions who was really responsible for the death.
|~/ |~/
~~|;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;||';-._.-;'^';||_.-;'^'0-|~~
P | Woof Woof, Glug Glug ||____________|| 0 | P
O | Who Drowned the Judge's Dog? | . . . . . . . '----. 0 | O
O | answers on *---|_______________ @__o0 | O
L |{a href="news:alt.religion.scientology"}{/a}_____________|/_______| L
and{a href="http://www.xemu.demon.co.uk/clam/lynx/q0.html"}{/a}XemuSP4(:)
Nico Garcia
In article <351523cb...@news.m.iinet.net.au>,
Steve Zadarnowski <fan...@nilspam.iinet.com.au> wrote:
>Xenu Mania <fi...@address.in.sigfile> wrote:
>
>>That may be. In addition to that it is also conceiveable that OSA readers
>>of this news group gathered posts about her son and presented them to her
>>in a bad light. Scientology has even been known to draft letters for
>>people with the instructions, "Write this in your own words."
>
>All things considered, I can't see why Ms Gale would have posted
>to ARS at all. After all, is she also in a position to sit in and
>influence every conversation by every group in every location?
A. Ms. Gale has never posted here before. She probably got orders to
do so.
B. Someone probably showed her the postings, the OSA monitors
who watch the newsgroup.
C. She has to blame *somebody*. The critics of $cientology make a good
target, since she could never, never blame the "Hubbard Tech".
After all it is "100% effective", and the psychs are to blame
for all the Suppression that $cientology experiences.
It is clearly Their Fault(tm).
The newspaper reports may have caused extra friction between Mr. Gale
and his mother. One reason students come to MIT is to be around peers,
and away from their parents while learning things that their parents
are unable or unwilling to deal with (ranging from nuclear physics
to human development of all kinds).
I sympathize with her grief, but the blame is very, very badly aimed.
William Barwell
In article <35b0d1f6...@news.snafu.de>,
Tilman Hausherr <til...@berlin.snafu.de> wrote:
****************** Deleted ******************
>
>Besides, *she* started. She made allegations that ars and the Boston
>Herald are responsible for the death of her son. This is not an
>"emotional plea" by a person who lost her mind because her beloved son
>died. This is an cold-hearted attack of a scientologist who saw an
>*opportunity* and used it, and I'm sure her fellow scientologists love
>her for that.
>
Hear, hear! Quite correct. I am not sure it was a cold hearted attempt to
abuse her son's suicide for an opportunity of some sort, but she was out
of line and incorrect as to her accusations. She did indeed start this,
and thus should have expected a few gruff replies at minimum.
It is a tragedy, but when one goes off half-cocked in futile
conspiracy blame mode like Mrs. Gale did, She should expect somebody to
set her straight.
CCHR's emotionally laden black PR and other balderdash make it hard
to give her the benefit of too many doubts.
Sorry about her son's death, but we in ARS should not be expected to
be accused of indirect complicity in that death by somebody who has
been leader of an organization that specializes in hysterical
and inaccurate accusations.
Pope Charles
SubGenius Pope Of Houston
Slack!
William Barwell
In article <199803220714...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
WONDERFULR <wonde...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Subject: Re: From Philip Gale's mother
>>From: til...@berlin.snafu.de (Tilman Hausherr)
>>Date: Sat, Mar 21, 1998 11:16 EST
>>Message-id: <35b0d1f6...@news.snafu.de>
>>
>
>can.
WretchedRuss, you with your hate filled and not so hurtful (but not
through want of trying) website should not be posting such lies
when you are culpable of what you are decrying.
Remove your libellous and hurtful (or obviously so you hoped) website.
Then when you have apologized to all you have libelled and smeared, then
you may you ascend your high horse.
Hypocrite.
Nico Garcia
In article <351501f...@news.snafu.de>,
Tilman Hausherr <til...@berlin.snafu.de> wrote:
>In <xy9afajwe...@shell1.tiac.net>, Nico Garcia
><ra...@shell1.tiac.net> wrote:
>
>>Could Mr. Gale have been *pushed* or *thrown* out the window? Dropping
>>15 stories will conceal a lot of physical evidence. I have to assume the
>>police are examining the possibility, if only to conclusively rule it
>>out, but it would definitely be worth verifying.
>
>Wasn't there one article that had said that people in the room witnessed
>him smashing the chair into the window? If not, then they should
>definitively investigate possible murder.
People in the *CHAT* room, one of the computer discussion groups
at MIT, apparently saw him hurtling from the sky, and may have
witnessed the breaking of the glass first.
Please be very careful in posting memory and speculation: I'm
trying myself to be restrained and identify carefully what is report,
theory, etc.
Nico Garcia
In article <199803220951...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
FauxReal59 <fauxr...@aol.com> wrote:
>After all I've been hearing about how Hubbard finished the job on his own son,
>it wouldn't surprise me if this Gale kid was pushed. Whaddya call that?
>End-Cycle?
>
>mom. And if that really was his mom's letter, and she's reading this, she
>needs a shrink.
No evidence that he was pushed has been published anywhere I can find.
A better example is David Miscavige's mother in law. Four rifle shots
to the chest, ruled "suicide", after her diagnosis with cancer and
rumors of dis-satisfaction with $cientology.
William Barwell
In article <6f00p4$o...@drn.newsguy.com>, <pli...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>In article <199803210724...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, jim...@aol.com
>says...
>
>>Very well said, Nico. Thanks f rom many of us.
>>
>>JimDBB
>
>You're a two-bit deprogrammer. Your agenda here has nothing to do with
>condolences. You probably hand out your business card at funerals.
>
Another coward Scientologist, posting anonymously for a little
inane name calling. So many cowards, so many gutless wonders.
But if I was so useless and anile, I would not want my real name on my
post either.
This is what Scientology creates, a nameless, cowardly, embittered
name calling fool.
Nico Garcia
wbar...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM (William Barwell) writes:
> In article <6f00p4$o...@drn.newsguy.com>, <pli...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> >In article <199803210724...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, jim...@aol.com
> >says...
> >
> >>Very well said, Nico. Thanks f rom many of us.
> >>
> >>JimDBB
> >
> >You're a two-bit deprogrammer. Your agenda here has nothing to do with
> >condolences. You probably hand out your business card at funerals.
> >
> >Patrick
I have handed out my business card at funerals, with my email address,
for people to contact me for personal assistance or to help them move
furniture at the estate. Not for pay: as a courtesy for the family.
> Another coward Scientologist, posting anonymously for a little
> inane name calling. So many cowards, so many gutless wonders.
> But if I was so useless and anile, I would not want my real name on my
> post either.
>
> This is what Scientology creates, a nameless, cowardly, embittered
> name calling fool.
And better yet: he's probably fairly high-ranked in OSA, to be
permitted to deal with our criticism.
Tilman Hausherr
In <6f3nvm$t...@news-central.tiac.net>, ra...@shell1.tiac.net (Nico
Garcia) wrote:
>People in the *CHAT* room, one of the computer discussion groups
>at MIT, apparently saw him hurtling from the sky, and may have
>witnessed the breaking of the glass first.
>
>Please be very careful in posting memory and speculation: I'm
>trying myself to be restrained and identify carefully what is report,
>theory, etc.
Ok, here is the article:
"Because of the location and the time of day, many students witnessed
the event. They told Campus Police that Mr. Gale broke a window with a
chair and cleared away the shards before leaping."
that was in "Tech Talk" on 18.3
An article (The Thistle) said that the room was empty - so police should
investigate whether the other students (outside) *saw* PGale clearing
the glass (which, although illogical, is nevertheless understandable),
or wehther they just *assumed* that it was PGale himself who cleared the
shards.
I hope that police will be able to do a real investigation, to find
whether PGale had any other wounds that do not result from the fall.
Tilman Hausherr
In <6f3jjp$m...@news-central.tiac.net>, ra...@shell1.tiac.net (Nico
Garcia) wrote:
>A. Ms. Gale has never posted here before.
wrong. She did post in 1994 or 95:
> I recently had a win applying Scientology in life that I wanted
> to share. I took materials from the "Scientology Handbook" (the
> chapter "Targets and Goals" and applied it to a project that
> looked absolutely daunting. Now I know just what to do to get
> the project done, and how to go about it. It looks totally
> confrontable; what a relief!
She then got a response asking whether she writes a success story after
each bathroom session. I think she understood and did not post again.
Besides, as OT8 it would be silly if she applies the "scientology
handbook" which is for beginners.
> She probably got orders to
> do so.
Maybe, since it is normally a no-no to post here, especially for people
on TNX (and she is / was on TNX).
Ron Newman
In article <6f3jjp$m...@news-central.tiac.net>, ra...@shell1.tiac.net (Nico
Garcia) wrote:
> >All things considered, I can't see why Ms Gale would have posted
> >to ARS at all. After all, is she also in a position to sit in and
> >influence every conversation by every group in every location?
>
> A. Ms. Gale has never posted here before. She probably got orders to
> do so.
She has posted to a.r.s. in the past -- at least two years ago,
I think. I recall some posting by her around the time of her
husband's death, and before that as well.
> B. Someone probably showed her the postings, the OSA monitors
> who watch the newsgroup.
Other possibilities:
- Someone at the MIT Media Lab or Earthlink showed her the postings.
- After a week of mourning, she decided to find out if her son was
mentioned anywhere on the Internet, and typed her son's name into
the DejaNews or AltaVista search engine. What she then found
upset her emotionally, and she reacted.
The latter is not really that strange a thing to do, not when a major part
of your son's life is connected to the Internet, as Philip's was.
If one of my close relatives died unexpectedly, I might indeed,
after the funeral, look at what people were saying about him on
the Net, and react much as Marie did if I felt he was being treated
with disrespect.
> The newspaper reports may have caused extra friction between Mr. Gale
> and his mother. One reason students come to MIT is to be around peers,
> and away from their parents while learning things that their parents
> are unable or unwilling to deal with (ranging from nuclear physics
> to human development of all kinds).
Very true. A college education is a life-changing experience, especially
at an elite institution such as MIT (where both Nico and I went to school).
A student coming here should expect to have to question and debate
every single assumption he was brought up with. A 19-year-old is
an adult and needs to be able to deal with this in an adult manner.
(As I've said before, I'm not sure that a 15-year-old belongs at
MIT at all, no matter how bright and talented he is.)
> I sympathize with her grief, but the blame is very, very badly aimed.
That's how I see it as well. I am quite willing, however, to forgive
and overlook statements made by a grieving mother still trying to cope
with her terrible loss. After some time has passed, I expect that
Marie Gale will understand that her son's death was not caused by
a.r.s. nor by the Boston Herald.
Nico Garcia
rne...@thecia.net (Ron Newman) writes:
> In article <6f3jjp$m...@news-central.tiac.net>, ra...@shell1.tiac.net (Nico
> Garcia) wrote:
>
> > >All things considered, I can't see why Ms Gale would have posted
> > >to ARS at all. After all, is she also in a position to sit in and
> > >influence every conversation by every group in every location?
> >
> > A. Ms. Gale has never posted here before. She probably got orders to
> > do so.
>
> She has posted to a.r.s. in the past -- at least two years ago,
> I think. I recall some posting by her around the time of her
> husband's death, and before that as well.
I missed it. Thank you and others for the correction.
> Very true. A college education is a life-changing experience, especially
> at an elite institution such as MIT (where both Nico and I went to school).
> A student coming here should expect to have to question and debate
> every single assumption he was brought up with. A 19-year-old is
> an adult and needs to be able to deal with this in an adult manner.
And MIT is often the first place where they *ARE* treated in even a
vaguely adult manner. These are people who are brighter, often more
adult than their peers, and it's not easy for them in high school.
> (As I've said before, I'm not sure that a 15-year-old belongs at
> MIT at all, no matter how bright and talented he is.)
I in fact agree.
Diane Richardson
On 21 Mar 1998 23:17:48 -0500, Nico Garcia <ra...@shell1.tiac.net>
wrote:
[snip]
Please stop. This sort of uninformed speculation does nothing to
increase understanding either of this particular incident or of the
subject in general.. You have resorted to calling up several
misconceptions about suicide which, although commonly accepted,
are not supported by available data.
>This aspect and the overall nature of Mr. Gale's death raises real
>questions in my mind. Suicide is very, very rarely so simple and
>effective: it is usually a cry for support, which is why people do
>poorly effective things like cutting their wrists slightly or taking
>pills.
If this were the case, suicide would not be the third leading cause of
death among 15- to 24-year-olds. In this age group, only homicide
and accidents take more lives than suicide.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchswww/fastats/suicide.htm
There are as many different attitudes towards suicide as there are
individuals. Some individuals do indeed use suicide attempts as
"cries for help." Others do not; they plan their actions and carry
them out without informing anyone of their intentions. It is
*impossible* to determine whether any individual will carry through a
planned suicide or not. *All* suicide attempts *must* be taken
seriously -- far too many suicide attempts are successful.
>Successful suicide is usually an intensely *private* act,
>often with a note left behind.
Again, I am not sure where you've gathered this impression. It is not
supported by any data I've seen anywhere. Traditionally, women have
been known for using "quiet, tidy, and unobtrusive" means (pills, gas,
drowning), while men have used "loud, bloody, and obtrusive" means
(firearms, knives, jumping from high places). These stereotypes have
fallen by the wayside, however, in more recent times.
>Throwing a chair out the window and jumping out the 15th floor of the
>Green Building, however, is intensely *public*. It's difficulty to
>stop, true, but it immediately calls a whole hell of a lot of
>attention to itself. But suicides who gather attention are usually
>seeking help, and therefore wait on top of the building for people to
>talk them down, etc.
I doubt if you can support this conclusion with scientifically valid
data. Can you?
I would suggest that your speculations on this particular suicide
cause distress to more readers than Mrs. Gale. Please don't continue
with it. It is *always* difficult to understand why anyone would wish
to take his/her own life. This doesn't mean, however, that the
suicide is actually homicide -- in this case anymore than in the case
of Ernest Hemingway or any of the other well-known suicides.
Diane Richardson
ref...@bway.net
William Barwell
>
>No, it doesn't. But there are accepted standards of decency. Almost
>everywhere.
Not on your webpage, Libel-ArtistRuss.
When you have shut down that pack of lies and
libels and apologized to those whom you have
spewed hate at, then come back and talk to
us of decency.
One either is decent or one is not.
not sometimes only when it suits you for
propaganda purposes. like you are using it.
Nico Garcia
ref...@bway.net (Diane Richardson) writes:
> On 21 Mar 1998 23:17:48 -0500, Nico Garcia <ra...@shell1.tiac.net>
> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> Please stop. This sort of uninformed speculation does nothing to
> increase understanding either of this particular incident or of the
> subject in general.. You have resorted to calling up several
> misconceptions about suicide which, although commonly accepted,
> are not supported by available data.
I have experience with suicide on the personal level, and at MIT.
> >This aspect and the overall nature of Mr. Gale's death raises real
> >questions in my mind. Suicide is very, very rarely so simple and
> >effective: it is usually a cry for support, which is why people do
> >poorly effective things like cutting their wrists slightly or taking
> >pills.
>
> If this were the case, suicide would not be the third leading cause of
> death among 15- to 24-year-olds. In this age group, only homicide
> and accidents take more lives than suicide.
This is because it's so damn *difficult* to kill a 15-24 year old. If
it were even slightly more effective, it would be the first cause.
Like playing with loaded guns, every once in a while someone gets
killed, even if not intentionally.
> http://www.cdc.gov/nchswww/fastats/suicide.htm
This shows only the *successful* suicides. You can't analyze
the variety of reasons or approaches from only this data. You
*know* better than this, Diane.
> There are as many different attitudes towards suicide as there are
> individuals. Some individuals do indeed use suicide attempts as
> "cries for help." Others do not; they plan their actions and carry
> them out without informing anyone of their intentions. It is
> *impossible* to determine whether any individual will carry through a
> planned suicide or not. *All* suicide attempts *must* be taken
> seriously -- far too many suicide attempts are successful.
Oh, yes. Absolutely. But the success is usually *accidental*. Someone
forgets to get their phone messages, the doctors treating the overdose
make a mistake or the ambulance takes too long, or the drugs are effective
in an unexpected way.
Classic example? Tylenol overdose. Many people don't realize that this
can damage the liver in large enough quantities: who'd realize you
could *REALLY* kill yourself with Tylenol? And it is a slow, nasty
death, full of tubes and pain, instead of the romantic "waking up in
another place" sort.
> >Successful suicide is usually an intensely *private* act,
> >often with a note left behind.
>
> Again, I am not sure where you've gathered this impression. It is not
> supported by any data I've seen anywhere. Traditionally, women have
> been known for using "quiet, tidy, and unobtrusive" means (pills, gas,
> drowning), while men have used "loud, bloody, and obtrusive" means
> (firearms, knives, jumping from high places). These stereotypes have
> fallen by the wayside, however, in more recent times.
Hardly "fallen by the wayside". Take a look at the college suicides of
the last 2 years, including Mr. Gale. I'll glance around for some
supporting numbers.
> >Throwing a chair out the window and jumping out the 15th floor of the
> >Green Building, however, is intensely *public*. It's difficulty to
> >stop, true, but it immediately calls a whole hell of a lot of
> >attention to itself. But suicides who gather attention are usually
> >seeking help, and therefore wait on top of the building for people to
> >talk them down, etc.
>
> I doubt if you can support this conclusion with scientifically valid
> data. Can you?
I'd have to dig into textbooks, but it's consistent with my personal
experience.
> I would suggest that your speculations on this particular suicide
> cause distress to more readers than Mrs. Gale. Please don't continue
> with it. It is *always* difficult to understand why anyone would wish
> to take his/her own life. This doesn't mean, however, that the
> suicide is actually homicide -- in this case anymore than in the case
> of Ernest Hemingway or any of the other well-known suicides.
No, Diane, it is not *always* difficult to understand a desire for
suicide. Many of us have toyed with the idea at some point in our
lives. Many, many of us have actually attempted it, including a hell
of a lot of my friends.
It's still *weird*, though, due to its publicity and the nature of the
act. And as I've said: an MIT student with Mr. Gale's abilities could
have easily reached the roof and not had to break anything. If critics
I happen to know would like to ask me *how*, ask me in email.
Being a strange suicide does not mean it's homicide, you're quite
right. The police doubtless have testimony and evidence that I've not
seen, for example, letting them understand the situation better and
confirming their public statement of this as a suicide. I wonder, for
example, if there was a note, or some recent conversations with
Mr. Gale's peers that would be enlightening.
Scott A. McClare
Rob Clark (xe...@mindspring.com) writes:
> this is about that suicide. considering the fact that the mother is currently
> here, and has made an emotional statement, i really don't think the world will
> end if some people let the goddamn body get cold before dissecting it.
>
> no names, i'm not pissed at anyone in particular so much as a seeming
> environment of what can be described as "bad taste." and yes, i know, i'm the
> king of it i ought to know it when i see it.
Hear hear.
I suggest that continuing the discussion concerning Mrs. Gale's recent
post and the appropriateness of debate on a.r.s is acceptable; but can we
take it easy on the conspiracy-theory-style speculation for at least a while?
Scott
--
Scott A. McClare SP4 GGBC#42 "I see you now and then in dreams
cj...@freenet.carleton.ca Your voice sounds just like it used to
http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~cj871/ I believe I will hear it again
PGP 1024/E7950B29 via finger/keyserver God how I love you" - Mark Heard
Ralph Reed
In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.98032...@darkstar.zippy>, Xenu
Mania <fi...@address.in.sigfile> wrote:
>On Fri, 20 Mar 1998, Teresa Marrin wrote:
> [.......]
>> Please stop discussing him, and before you start taking apart
>> some other person, look at the possible effects you might have.
>>
>> Marie Gale
The NNTP server I use is very crappy--- I receive follow-up
articles to articles that never show up (such as this one).
I therefore have failed to see any articles on this subject
where anyone was "taken apart." I've seen a dozen+ articles
speculating on how the crime syndicate may have been directly
or indirectly related to the subject's suicide. This seems
like a very topical subject for this newsgroup. It is HIGHLY
regretable that Ms Gale {if it is actually her} appears to
object, yet SHE NEED NOT READ ANY ARTICLES HERE!
>What did you hope to gain by your post?
>1. that people would think that Scientologists are persecuted?
>2. that people who talk critically about Scientologists are unkind?
>3. that people would stop posting to alt.religion.scientology?
>
>You would not have posted had your son not died.
>
>Joe Cisar
I can think of a SLIGHTLY parallel case: that of Patricia
Pulling, the founder of the "Bothered About Dungeons & Dragons"
cult. Her 16-year-old son apparently [1] killed himself, after a
long history of behavior that appears to me to denote a
schizo-affective personality. According to Ms. Pulling, her son
often crawled around on the floor making animal noises. He also
appears to have been fantasy-prone and manic depressive.
I bring this up because of his mother's behavior after her son's
death. She insists that his death was (actual quote)
"...directly related to the game of Dungeons & Dragons(R)." Yet
his behavioral problems were in place before he became
interested in role playing games. The point is, Ms Pulling has
refused to examine the real reasons (if any) for her son's
suicide because it would be too emotionally difficult for her to
do so: she would much rather fabricate a non-causal relationship
between D&D and suicide. She would run the risk of finding that
she could have been partially or fully responsible.
=PERHAPS= Ms. Gale does not want to examine her son's suicide in
light of her involvement with Scientology and the "CCHR." I do
not know if there is a correlation, but given what is known
about how evil Scientology and the "CCHR" is, it is at least a
possibility that a link exists.
[1]
In my opinion the death is "questionable," not clearly a
suicide. The boy was found on the front lawn of the house, with
fatal stab wounds. There were no known witnesses, as the rest of
the family was away at the time. Suicides often change their
minds after wounding themselves, so he could have staggard out
of the house looking for help (the door was said to have been
open when he was found), but most people would use the telephone
to call for help. Also, boys usually do not cut themselves---
girls do. Boys jump from heights, use hand guns to the head, or
strangle themselves (just like men). Women tend to shoot
themselves in the chest, drowned themselves naked, take pills,
or starve.
--
Ralph Reed
rgonnet
Teresa Marrin wrote:
>
>
>
> In the BEST case scenario, it was upsetting to him. At worst, it could
> have actively contributed to his decision to take his own life. How
> would you feel to be 19 years old and have your school, your work
> experience, and your parents beliefs pulled apart and attacked? I have
> trouble ignoring the fact that his decision to end his life apparently
> came within a few days of the Boston Herald article.
>
> Some of the posts here since his death have been unkind personal
> speculations and sometimes outrightly mean. And nearly all have ignored
> the fact that, while I am a Scientologist, I am a mother and my son,
> whom I loved and respected and, more than, anthing, wanted to be able to
> achieve his goals in life - whatever they were and wherever they took
> him - is gone.
Dear Madam,
While I always profoundly and sincerely regret that any young promising
man kills himself, if I'm looking at your own past, I can't forget the
following fact: people do kill themselves when in an SP environment.
That's not a casual thing: most have had the severest problems with
their own parents, especially when scientology is in the middle of that.
Scientologists parents are really BAD ones; I know, and as I've had two
boys when a scieno, i can say that scientology has been the biggest
error i ever did. Scieno parents don't love their children the way they
should.
If you want to be convinced of this, just think about the huge number of
people having children, coming to the sea org with them, then forced to
get out of their loved scientology because the treatments used against
their children were only mistreatments that the mothers (especially the
mothers) could not support. So, they were "routed off", parents and
children alike.
Or think about the huge number of people who, like Andre and Mary
Tabayoyon, are definitely cut-of from their children - in this case ,
Casavius Tabayoyon, or can i recall you the Quentin Hubbard, who also
killed himself?
I am absolutely certain that you are too much afraid of the possible
consequences from your cult to say the reality of what you could think,
in your real mother's heart.
Roger Gonnet
>
> Please stop discussing him, and before you start taking apart some other
> person, look at the possible effects you might have.
We'll not stop discussing anything related to the scientology cult,
Madam: you should better attack them than defend them, and be a mother
for real. Sorry if my opinion looks harsh; i can't imagine how you
could, in your actions, prefer that criminal organization to your own
kin. And that's what you are showing here, asking us to stop suppose or
expose the various crimes to which the cult is related, by whatever
links we are not always able to imagine, alas, otherwise perhaps even
your son could still be living, which , believe me, is certainly my
sincere hope.
Do you know what? You act suppressively: you are attacking the wrong
target,n when attacking alt.religion.scientology or any of those
exposing the crimes and the bad effects from the cult.
Roger Gonnet
rgonnet
Tilman Hausherr wrote:
>
> In <3512D2...@earthlink.net>, Teresa Marrin <mar...@media.mit.edu>
> wrote:
>
>
> I suggest you read CCHR "literature". That's outright libellous to an
> entire profession, and very dangerous because it prevents people who
> need help. Many ex-scientologists are scared to seek professional help.
And if your son would have searched that help, he would have had help.
If your son has done what he did, blame it on yourself as well: what
sort of young years did you give him? How many times was he calling for
normal love, and getting only scieno reflex? I know, my two children
suffered much from me and their mother, when we were scienos. And the
suiccidal thought if not more was often there. Happily enough, we never
applied the fucking ethics too much on them. Otherwise, both could be
either crazy either even dead.
How many times did you think yourself to do that since you are scieno?
Take a mirror, Madam, and get out of the scam you are defending. Then,
you could look what you are in the facts: a mother, Madam. A mother you
have sometimes forgotten to be while it was still time to. Read the
reply of Tilman Hausherr: this is true? It's a scandal to speak like you
do, scieno-wise, instead of crying for the real causes.
Madam, i repeat: you don't look a mother doing her mother's duty. You
look what you do: a scientologist using anything to get your cult's
brainwasing at the society, and you did that after speaking to OSA's
goons, instead of speaking "from inside you", sincerely and personnaly.
Roger Gonnet
>
> You make silly speculations without any basis in fact. None. It reminds
> me of scientology's allegations that Ed Lottick was responsible for the
> suicide of Noah Lottick.
> (Because Ed Lottick considered scientology a scam and had told Noah).
Which it is the entire truth, Madam. And the worse is that you know it
perfectly well. Would you say that if you had anticipated your own son's
death, you would have attacked Dr. and Madam Lottick's positions
regarding this?
Would I be in your position, I'd be extremely ashamed of daring attck
another's suicidee parent by this bia. It is a shame and a scandal,
Madam. Once again, you show that you act as a heartless cultist
attacking even those who suffered from one of the worse things possible,
losing one's child by suicide. And yet worse, as a mother, you know how
this is related to yourself and your cult, far better than us.
Roger Gonnet
rgonnet
>
> Besides, *she* started. She made allegations that ars and the Boston
> Herald are responsible for the death of her son. This is not an
> "emotional plea" by a person who lost her mind because her beloved son
> died. This is an cold-hearted attack of a scientologist who saw an
> *opportunity* and used it, and I'm sure her fellow scientologists love
> her for that.
This is a plain mere scandal. I can't really imagine how a "mother"
could act like this no more than i can't understdand how the father and
mother of Quentin Hubbard have reacted when their son committed suicide.
The father complaining for himself, and the mother pretending, via her
GO's goons, that the CIA could be the cause of that suicide?
What sort of parents do you become, while becoming scientologist? That
sort. And I cannot imagine how one can get such robotic reactions.
Roger
Scott A. McClare
WONDERFULR (wonde...@aol.com) writes:
> No, it doesn't. But there are accepted standards of decency. Almost
> everywhere.
What the hell do YOU know about decency, owner (in name, at least) of a
Web page containing libelous statements about critics of your Church of Lies?
Isn't there something in one of those books the Cult of Scientology
considers "holy" about taking care of the 2x4 in your own eye before
worrying about the speck in someone else's?
Axiom: Level of involvement in Scientology * Integrity = Constant.
Russ Shaw. Liar and Hypocrite and Scientologist <tm>.
Ron Newman
> > You make silly speculations without any basis in fact. None. It reminds
> > me of scientology's allegations that Ed Lottick was responsible for the
> > suicide of Noah Lottick.
> > (Because Ed Lottick considered scientology a scam and had told Noah).
>
> Which it is the entire truth, Madam. And the worse is that you know it
> perfectly well. Would you say that if you had anticipated your own son's
> death, you would have attacked Dr. and Madam Lottick's positions
> regarding this?
>
> Would I be in your position, I'd be extremely ashamed of daring attck
> another's suicidee parent by this bia.
Marie Gale did not write the text that you are attributing to her
here. Tilman Hausherr wrote it. Marie never mentioned the Lotticks
in her message at all.
Frank San Filippo
I mostly lurk now on ARS, but I knew Phil a very little bit when I worked at
EarthLink in the early days. He was an obviously bright kid, pretty quiet.
Some friends of mine who worked with him longer told me that Philip indeed
had abandoned the belief system he was raised in, but still felt trapped --
by the fear that he would be ostracized by friends and family for leaving
Scientology. They also confirmed that Phil had complained about feeling
bored all the time.
I imagine Scientology didn't help Philip's mental state much, but it's sadly
not that uncommon for very bright people to be melancholic, suicidal. I
suspect it was his 'boredom' and the pressures of living up to being a
'child genius' that got to him as much as anything.
For the record, on an unrelated note, while the L. Ron Hubbard Management
Technology was a principal factor in me leaving EarthLink, I still have
friends who work there and tell me that it is no longer in use at ELN, and
that a large proportion of management and staff are NOT Scientologists. I
really doubt the Co$ has their fingers too deeply in that pie.
F.
(formerly posting from fr...@w3-design.com)
David Gerard
On 22 Mar 1998 07:14:48 GMT, wonde...@aol.com (WONDERFULR) wrote, in
reaction to Tilman:
:Exactly. Keep ~your dishonesty~ aimed AT Scientologists. Its your JOB!
You really believe that, don't you?
--
http://thingy.apana.org.au/~fun/ AGSF Unit 0|4 http://suburbia.net/~fun/
Stop JUNK EMAIL Boycott AMAZON.COM http://mickc.home.mindspring.com/index1.htm
"When the www.xenu.net banner was unfurled in front of the "American Saint Hill
Organization" doors in LA on LRH's birthday on LRH Way on March 14, 1998 at
2:38 p.m., I felt *that* marked the point at which the net firmly asserted its
right to be heard in lawful criticism." - Grady Ward on kicking $cientology's butt
Nico Garcia
In article <6f6sdk$jrf$1...@madmax.keyway.net>,
Frank San Filippo <fr...@mayberry.org> wrote:
Thank you, Frank for popping up and posting. It's very nice to see
someone who actually knew Philip.
>I imagine Scientology didn't help Philip's mental state much, but it's sadly
>not that uncommon for very bright people to be melancholic, suicidal. I
>suspect it was his 'boredom' and the pressures of living up to being a
>'child genius' that got to him as much as anything.
This is quite true. It's also, in my opinion, especially common
for the students who attend college at the age of 15, as Philip Gale did.
Goodness, with his mother as head of the CCHR, can you imagine her
reaction if he went to a psychiatrist to discuss his problems?
After all the postering her people do saying "psychiatrists
rape patients, hate black people, medicate sheeep, eat their young,
get naked and dance in front of a bloody cross", etc.? (Slightly
exaggerated, but not much).
>For the record, on an unrelated note, while the L. Ron Hubbard Management
>Technology was a principal factor in me leaving EarthLink, I still have
>friends who work there and tell me that it is no longer in use at ELN, and
>that a large proportion of management and staff are NOT Scientologists. I
>really doubt the Co$ has their fingers too deeply in that pie.
Oh, my. Thank you very much for this data. It's difficult to know
whether to believe Earthlink's management about this sort of thing,
since $cientology has such a way of lying with "acceptable truths"
when talking to the press.
Mark W Brehob
WONDERFULR (wonde...@aol.com) wrote:
[clip]
: No, it doesn't. But there are accepted standards of decency. Almost
: everywhere.
In your opinion does your web page meet these standards?
Does posting that someone "charges their own mother" interest on a loan meet
these standards?
Does picketing someone's place of bussness because their SON is s critic of
Scientology meet these standards?
Well WONDERFULR?
[clip]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~bre...@cps.msu.edu~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| | The reports of SIMD's death have been greatly exaggerated | |
| -=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- |
~~~~~~Mark Brehob: Ultimate Player, Gamer, Computer Geek~~~~~~~~~~
Xenu Mania
This is true. I asked a Scientologist who was obviously a Scientologist
if she was a Scientologist, and she said "No, but I spend a lot of time on
the internet."
Joe Cisar
reply to: iy...@cleveland.freenet.edu
German Scientology News - http://cisar.org
Quite frankly Madam, I just don't give a deer.