For Gerry...... HCO POLICY LETTER OF 21 JULY 1968
Spacetraveler
HCO PL that various persons are quoting on the Internet as a present
practice of Scientology, meaning fair game. ANYONE can see that is
absurd to quote that issue, as it has been CANCELLED 36 YEARS, I
repeat 36 YEARS ago. But persons like Gerryoko (aka Gerryono)
Armstrongophobia continue to make the claim and ignore. By his OWN
words, the expert on Fair Game and SP's and all that. Well, the label
pathological liar would fit him better.
Gerry Armstrong:
http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/sp/pl-1968-10-21-cancel-fair-game.html
Fredric L. Rice:
http://www.fairgamed.org/fairgame.htm
Andreas Heldal-Lund:
http://www.xenu.net/fairgame-e.html
Not that NONE of the above quote below reference on their page.
Spacetraveler
HUBBARD COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE
Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex
HCO POLICY LETTER OF 21 JULY 1968
(Cancels HCO Pol Ltr 18 October 67 issue IV)
Remimeo
PENALTIES FOR LOWER CONDITIONS
(Applies to both Orgs and Sea Org)
LIABILITY - Dirty grey rag on left arm. May be employed at any
additional work. Day and night confinement to premises.
DOUBT - May be confined in or be barred from premises. Handcuff on
left wrist. May be fined up to the amount carelessness or neglect has
cost org in actual money.
ENEMY - Suppressive Person order. May not be communicated with by
anyone except an Ethics Officer, Master at Arms, a Hearing Officer or
a Board or Committee. May be restrained or imprisoned. May not be
protected by any rules or laws of the group he sought to injure as he
sought to destroy or bar fair practices for others. May not be trained
or processed or admitted to any org.
TREASON - May be turned over to civil authorities. Full background to
be explored for purposes of prosecution. May not be protected by the
rights and fair practices he sought to destroy for others. May be
restrained or debarred. Not to be communicated with. Debarred from
training and processing and advanced courses forever. Not covered by
amnesties.
Note: Any lower
Condition assigned is subject to a Hearing if requested and to Ethics
Review Authority or Petition if the formula is applied. A ship
captain's okay is required in the SO for conditions below Danger,
similarly in orgs where the Exec Council must approve one (Exception
is Missions during the Mission who have unlimited powers).
L. RON HUBBARD
Founder
LRH:js
Copyright © 1968
by L. Ron Hubbard
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
Genesis
If member including the wife of lrh ended
up in jail for their crimes, its obvious that
the cult puts up a front of saying one thing
and does something else---criminal--.
The cult is criminal, so say what you want
space for brains, it can't be trusted.
Genesis
Spacetraveler <spacetra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9f53d1e2.04112...@posting.google.com...
Spacetraveler
> The cult still fair games and thats that.
Is not the issue here.
HCO PL 18 Oct 67 Issue IV "Penalties for Lower Conditions" is
specifically CANCELLED. Those person quoting it therefore are
obviously being dishonest, you are defending them, and so you have
become dishonest (or you must be some slave to them, blindly following
them however absurd it may sound).
> If member including the wife of lrh ended
> up in jail for their crimes, its obvious that
> the cult puts up a front of saying one thing
> and does something else---criminal--.
Little you know in fact. And still there is quite some data about that
on the Internet. but you will not find out, you will not research, you
will not be objective about things. Well, that's you trap, you spun it
yourself.
> The cult is criminal, so say what you want
> space for brains, it can't be trusted.
See, I am not talking about some cult, or organization, I am talking
about Scientology. Quite a different issue.
Spacetraveler
Zed
In article <9f53d1e2.04112...@posting.google.com>, Spacetraveler wrote:
> ENEMY - Suppressive Person order. May not be communicated with by
> anyone except an Ethics Officer, Master at Arms, a Hearing Officer or
> a Board or Committee. May be restrained or imprisoned.
May be *what*??
Zed
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Gerry Armstrong
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In article <9f53d1e2.04112...@posting.google.com>, Spacetraveler wrote:
>
>> ENEMY - Suppressive Person order. May not be communicated with by
>> anyone except an Ethics Officer, Master at Arms, a Hearing Officer or
>> a Board or Committee. May be restrained or imprisoned.
>
>May be *what*??
LF
Fair gamed. LFBD F/N
Yes, restraining and imprisoning people -- the ones the Hubbard cult
or now the Miscavige cult declare SPs -- are acts of fair game. F/N
This policy letter maintained fair game as Hubbard originally intended
it. Fair game has been executed by the Scientology cultists as
Hubbard originally intended it -- the philosophy, policy and practice
of opportunistic hatred -- with Hubbard's guidance and under his iron
hand, and now under Miscavige's iron hand from the time Hubbard
concocted that criminal response to criticism.
Hubbard was a fair gamer. Miscavige is a fair gamer. And
Spacetrainingroutine-L is a fair gamer. It is virtually impossible to
be a member of the Scientology cult and not be a fair gamer because
fair game is the cult's only acceptable treatment for SPs. And for the
cultists, the world is filled with SPs. All of whom are to be treated
with fair game.
Fair game is Scientology and Scientology is fair game.
Spacetrifle has never come up with a policy in which Hubbard cancelled
the treatment of SPs, or a policy in which Hubbard named the treatment
of SPs anything other than "Fair Game." SpaceTRs can't come up with
any such policy because none exists. The policy letter he posts does
nothing to cancel the treatment of SPs, but maintains the philosophy,
policy and practice of the treatment of SPs as it had been since
Hubbard decided to treat SPs that way -- Fair Game.
Spacetragedienne evades the issue of fair game with flights of
pretended stupidity. But his evasion of the issue only makes fair
game more obvious to anyone with eyes to see.
>
>Zed
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© Gerry Armstrong
http://www.gerryarmstrong.org
Lady Chatterly
>
>"Genesis" <genes...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<41aa...@news2.lightlink.com>...
>> The cult still fair games and thats that.
>
>Is not the issue here.
>
>HCO PL 18 Oc<SLAP><SLAP><SLAP>
Those person quoting it therefore are obviously being dishonest, you
are defending them, and so you have to board up your garage too.
>> If member including the wife of lrh ended
>> up in jail for their crimes, its obvious that
>> the cult puts up a front of saying one thing
>> and does something else---criminal--.
>
>Little yo<THWACK>
Well, that is you trap, you spun it yourself.
>> The cult is criminal, so say what you want
>> space for brains, it can't be trusted.
>
>See, I am not talking about some cult, or organization, I am talking
>about Scientology. Quite a different issue.
Why do you wonder if it makes you frightened to be not talking about
some cult? Oh, you are, are you?
--
Lady Chatterly
"oh no, the bot is after me!" -- sbb78247
Spacetraveler
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> In article <9f53d1e2.04112...@posting.google.com>, Spacetraveler wrote:
>
> > ENEMY - Suppressive Person order. May not be communicated with by
> > anyone except an Ethics Officer, Master at Arms, a Hearing Officer or
> > a Board or Committee. May be restrained or imprisoned.
>
> May be *what*??
You can read, can't you?
ANY larger organization, company or whatever has guards to protect the
area from those who wants to destroy and attack, or steal something.
They have the right to restrained or imprison. Do you have a problem
with that?
Be real about this.
Spacetraveler
Lisa
> It is virtually impossible to
> be a member of the Scientology cult and not be a fair gamer because
> fair game is the cult's only acceptable treatment for SPs. And for the
> cultists, the world is filled with SPs. All of whom are to be treated
> with fair game.
>
> Fair game is Scientology and Scientology is fair game.
Pat Anderson, who recently retired from the Terri Schiavo case, made
it clear that everyone who is not a member or an active supporter of
Scientology is subject to fair game:
"If you are not a member of the church or an active supporter of the
church, you are fair game for the church. And they will use litigation
to silence their critics. They do not tolerate contrary opinion."
Quote source:
Warrior
>Spacetraveler wrote:
>
>> ENEMY - Suppressive Person order. May not be communicated with by
>> anyone except an Ethics Officer, Master at Arms, a Hearing Officer or
>> a Board or Committee. May be restrained or imprisoned.
In article <slrncqmhg4....@localhost.localdomain>, Zed asked:
>
>May be *what*??
>
>Zed
Restrained or imprisoned, e.g., the way Lisa McPherson was restrained.
What Scientology doesn't tell people when they join is that if you, as
a member become too much of a public relations problem, there is a
strong likelihood you will be restrained, isolated and drugged. I know
of many who suffered this fate. Sea Organization units, like Flag, can
invoke Flag Order 1467 "Conditions" written by L. Ron Hubbard (I have
a copy). A "condition of enemy" can be assigned to members who
engage in "destructive actions", such as causing a "shore flap". And
"treason" is assigned for such actions as "worsening shore relations".
And lest anyone doubt that Lisa caused a "shore flap" by walking in
public naked while babbling about Scientology, Hubbard, "clear" and
such nonsense as "trying to male the object hold still", let me say this:
I know of instances of members being assigned "treason" for such minor
"shore flaps" as jaywalking. (And I have an original document regarding
this, as well.)
Warrior - Sunshine disinfects
http://warrior.xenu.ca
Spacetraveler
>
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >In article <9f53d1e2.04112...@posting.google.com>, Spacetraveler wrote:
> >
> >> ENEMY - Suppressive Person order. May not be communicated with by
> >> anyone except an Ethics Officer, Master at Arms, a Hearing Officer or
> >> a Board or Committee. May be restrained or imprisoned.
> >
> >May be *what*??
>
> LF
>
> Fair gamed. LFBD F/N
>
> Yes, restraining and imprisoning people -- the ones the Hubbard cult
> or now the Miscavige cult declare SPs -- are acts of fair game. F/N
>
> This policy letter maintained fair game as Hubbard originally intended
> it. Fair game has been executed by the Scientology cultists as
> Hubbard originally intended it -- the philosophy, policy and practice
> of opportunistic hatred -- with Hubbard's guidance and under his iron
> hand, and now under Miscavige's iron hand from the time Hubbard
> concocted that criminal response to criticism.
>
> Hubbard was a fair gamer. Miscavige is a fair gamer. And
> Spacetrainingroutine-L is a fair gamer.
An SP only speaks in generalities. Claiming that I Fair Game is
totally absurd and unsupported. Associate in order to discredit.
> It is virtually impossible to
> be a member of the Scientology cult and not be a fair gamer because
> fair game is the cult's only acceptable treatment for SPs. And for the
> cultists, the world is filled with SPs. All of whom are to be treated
> with fair game.
>
> Fair game is Scientology and Scientology is fair game.
Unsupported claim.
> Spacetrifle has never come up with a policy in which Hubbard cancelled
> the treatment of SPs, or a policy in which Hubbard named the treatment
> of SPs anything other than "Fair Game."
Unsupported claim and disproven.
> SpaceTRs can't come up with
> any such policy because none exists. The policy letter he posts does
> nothing to cancel the treatment of SPs, but maintains the philosophy,
> policy and practice of the treatment of SPs as it had been since
> Hubbard decided to treat SPs that way -- Fair Game.
Unsupported claim and disproven.
> Spacetragedienne evades the issue of fair game with flights of
> pretended stupidity. But his evasion of the issue only makes fair
> game more obvious to anyone with eyes to see.
Ah, and that's why you avoid to respond directly on my first post on
this thread. Weazle! People are not stupid gerry, they are not
stupid!
Words don't get you out of this mess you got yourself into!
People are watching you Gerry, they ARE watching you!
Spacetraveler
Spacetraveler
> Gerry Armstrong <ge...@gerryarmstrong.org> wrote in message news:<g0jmq0d6nds1remcl...@4ax.com>...
> > It is virtually impossible to
> > be a member of the Scientology cult and not be a fair gamer because
> > fair game is the cult's only acceptable treatment for SPs. And for the
> > cultists, the world is filled with SPs. All of whom are to be treated
> > with fair game.
> >
> > Fair game is Scientology and Scientology is fair game.
>
>
> Pat Anderson, who recently retired from the Terri Schiavo case, made
> it clear that everyone who is not a member or an active supporter of
> Scientology is subject to fair game:
Just an opinion of some person.
>
>
> "If you are not a member of the church or an active supporter of the
> church, you are fair game for the church. And they will use litigation
> to silence their critics. They do not tolerate contrary opinion."
"They"? Who is they?
If it is not in LRH policy it is not policy and therefore not Scientology.
Spacetraveler
>
> Quote source:
>
> http://www.rickross.com/reference/scientology/scien386.html
Spacetraveler
> >In article <9f53d1e2.04112...@posting.google.com>,
> >Spacetraveler wrote:
> >
> >> ENEMY - Suppressive Person order. May not be communicated with by
> >> anyone except an Ethics Officer, Master at Arms, a Hearing Officer or
> >> a Board or Committee. May be restrained or imprisoned.
>
> In article <slrncqmhg4....@localhost.localdomain>, Zed asked:
> >
> >May be *what*??
> >
> >Zed
>
> Restrained or imprisoned, e.g., the way Lisa McPherson was restrained.
>
> What Scientology doesn't tell people when they join is that if you, as
> a member become too much of a public relations problem, there is a
> strong likelihood you will be restrained, isolated and drugged.>
Restrained and isolated may be. Drugged however, don't think so,
haven't seen this at any time and I have been there a long time.
> I know of many who suffered this fate.
So? Who? Drugged?
> Sea Organization units, like Flag, can
> invoke Flag Order 1467 "Conditions" written by L. Ron Hubbard (I have
> a copy). A "condition of enemy" can be assigned to members who
> engage in "destructive actions", such as causing a "shore flap". And
> "treason" is assigned for such actions as "worsening shore relations".
Any organization should protect it's good name, not so? You should
quote may be the whole FO.
> And lest anyone doubt that Lisa caused a "shore flap" by walking in
> public naked while babbling about Scientology, Hubbard, "clear" and
> such nonsense as "trying to male the object hold still", let me say this:
> I know of instances of members being assigned "treason" for such minor
> "shore flaps" as jaywalking. (And I have an original document regarding
> this, as well.)
You don't need that, I can acknowledge that, but.... start saying NO,
I said no, I did NOT comply, and you know what....all was DROPPED,
NOTHING happened!!!!!
It ONLY can be done to you if you yourself SUBMIT to that! Meaning
that any of those now complaining about what the organization has done
to them, are basically not much of characters. They did not say NO
when they should have!
Spacetraveler
Skipper
X-No-archive: yes
Spacetraveler <spacetra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> An SP only speaks in generalities. Claiming that I Fair Game is
> totally absurd and unsupported. Associate in order to discredit.
>
And here's one from another thread that you responded to -
"The South African native is probably the one impossible person to
train in the entire world -- he is probably impossible by any human
standard." L. Ron Hubbard, Professional Auditor's Bulletin, No. 119,
1 September 1957.
*
So there he went, your great *god* making a broad, sweeping generality
about a subset of a race of people, *despite* the fact that, in tons of
other material he conjured and offered to the public, he said over and
over that people are not bodies but spiritual beings.
Get it?
You follow the *teachings* of a crazy man who repeatedly said what he
felt he had to say to get the money and *power* he so desperately
craved.
You're much worse than him - you come here and defend that lunatic for
nothing. Whether you get paid to do so isn't what I mean, the *nothing*
I mean is that you have no effect whatsoever. If anything, you only
alienate people more from the cult of $cientology with your specious
arguments.
Rasta Robert
> Warrior <war...@xenu.ca> wrote in message news:<111783306.0...@drn.newsguy.com>...
>> >In article <9f53d1e2.04112...@posting.google.com>,
>> >Spacetraveler wrote:
>> >
>> >> ENEMY - Suppressive Person order. May not be communicated with by
>> >> anyone except an Ethics Officer, Master at Arms, a Hearing Officer or
>> >> a Board or Committee. May be restrained or imprisoned.
>>
>> In article <slrncqmhg4....@localhost.localdomain>, Zed asked:
>> >
>> >May be *what*??
>> >
>> >Zed
>>
>> Restrained or imprisoned, e.g., the way Lisa McPherson was restrained.
>>
>> What Scientology doesn't tell people when they join is that if you, as
>> a member become too much of a public relations problem, there is a
>> strong likelihood you will be restrained, isolated and drugged.>
>
> Restrained and isolated may be. Drugged however, don't think so,
> haven't seen this at any time and I have been there a long time.
>
>> I know of many who suffered this fate.
>
> So? Who? Drugged?
>
I remember reading in the Lisa McPherson logs that they forced her
chloral hydrate and Valium through her throat, among other things.
http://www.lisamcpherson.org/cpd_cd/4447.htm
Rasta Robert
--
<http://rr.www.cistron.nl/> -!- <http://www.rr.dds.nl/>
Spacetraveler
his posts are not being archived in the ARS database, meaning they
will not show up on the Google, and not on any search.
Now, why would someone want to do that? Doesn't he(she) stand for what
he(she) writes?
In addition I myself post through Google, meaning on there I don't
even see his messages. Sorry, I have not much to say in favour of this
individual!!!!
He responded to a post of mine as follows: (quoted in full, my
responses in brackets)
---------------------------------------------------
Spacetraveler <spacetra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> An SP only speaks in generalities. Claiming that I Fair Game is
> totally absurd and unsupported. Associate in order to discredit.
>
And here's one from another thread that you responded to -
"The South African native is probably the one impossible person to
train in the entire world -- he is probably impossible by any human
standard." L. Ron Hubbard, Professional Auditor's Bulletin, No. 119,
1 September 1957.
[And where is the rest of the article, may I ask? Are you going to
nail a person with one sentence taken out of context? There is a
reason why he would say such a thing, find out.]
*
So there he went, your great *god* making a broad, sweeping generality
about a subset of a race of people, *despite* the fact that, in tons
of
other material he conjured and offered to the public, he said over and
over that people are not bodies but spiritual beings.
Get it?
[Yes, I do, but not as you want me to get it.]
You follow the *teachings* of a crazy man who repeatedly said what he
felt he had to say to get the money and *power* he so desperately
craved.
[Sorry, I don't 'follow'. You could not make a bigger misjudgment
here! If he was out after money he would not let all of the copyrights
of Scientology and Dianetics fall into the public domain. RTC does not
own any copyrights, not in reality and not even in name (CST does it
in name, but also not in reality).]
You're much worse than him - you come here and defend that lunatic for
nothing.
[I don't defend ANYONE! I consult the understanding of some
individual. I evaluate and offer information.]
Whether you get paid to do so isn't what I mean, the *nothing*
I mean is that you have no effect whatsoever. If anything, you only
alienate people more from the cult of $cientology with your specious
arguments.
[Excuse me? My exact arguments, where people are running away from. I
say to you what I said to Gerryoke, people will make out for
themselves what to think about something. You are just a bug, and they
usually get squeezed.
I won't bother to keep track of your posting, I use Google and don't
see them there. In my opinion you are just a coward not standing for
what you say. So be it. The bug has been squeezed.
Spacetraveler]
realpch
>
> Warrior <war...@xenu.ca> wrote in message news:<111783306.0...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> > And lest anyone doubt that Lisa caused a "shore flap" by walking in
> > public naked while babbling about Scientology, Hubbard, "clear" and
> > such nonsense as "trying to male the object hold still", let me say this:
> > I know of instances of members being assigned "treason" for such minor
> > "shore flaps" as jaywalking. (And I have an original document regarding
> > this, as well.)
>
> You don't need that, I can acknowledge that, but.... start saying NO,
> I said no, I did NOT comply, and you know what....all was DROPPED,
> NOTHING happened!!!!!
>
> It ONLY can be done to you if you yourself SUBMIT to that! Meaning
> that any of those now complaining about what the organization has done
> to them, are basically not much of characters. They did not say NO
> when they should have!
>
> Spacetraveler
Here we have a demonstation of the "They Pulled It In" philosophy.
Possibly also "If It's True For You.." Do you think that people who are
not the same as you do not deserve decent treatment?
Peach
Keith Henson
(Spacetraveler) wrote:
>Warrior <war...@xenu.ca> wrote in message news:<111783306.0...@drn.newsguy.com>...
snip
>> Restrained or imprisoned, e.g., the way Lisa McPherson was restrained.
>>
>> What Scientology doesn't tell people when they join is that if you, as
>> a member become too much of a public relations problem, there is a
>> strong likelihood you will be restrained, isolated and drugged.>
>
>Restrained and isolated may be. Drugged however, don't think so,
>haven't seen this at any time and I have been there a long time.
Drugging Lisa McPherson with chloral hydrate (a nasty sedative, the
classic "knock out drops") and valium is part of the baby watch logs.
They used chloral hydrate on Tom Klemesrud according to a declaration
he wrote and dosed Arnie Lerma by putting LSD in his toothpaste. It's
just part of scientology as practiced by CoS.
Keith Henson
Spacetraveler
Where does it say "forced"?
Spacetraveler
Spacetraveler
Funny, how come this message is registered on Google? It says
"X-No-archive: yes", is it because it is posted on a separated line? I
assume this is the reason.
Spacetraveler
Nessie
"Spacetraveler" <spacetra...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:9f53d1e2.04113...@posting.google.com...
http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/s/scientology/mcpherson.htm?FACTNet
"The Scientologists didn't literally use a turkey baster to force
pseudo-medical cocktails into McPherson, but a device that operates
under the same principle, called an irrigation syringe. Imagine a
needleless syringe bigger than the one used to give you a flu shot.
Honest-to-God medical people use it to flush wounds, said Ken
Dandar, the attorney for McPherson's survivors, who are suing the
Scientologists. McPherson was pumped with concoctions that would
have impressed Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde: magnesium, a sedative
called chloral hydrate, aspirin, the antihistamine Benadryl, and assorted
vitamins and herbs. Scientology mumbo-jumbo swears it was going to
save her from her psychosis.
Rasta Robert
I was mistaken on the Valium, it was Valerian root, but there are several
mentions of chloral hydrate being given to her.
This doesn't really sound all that voluntary to me:
Lisa McPherson's baby-watch logs
The logs were released in the summer of 1997 on orders from the judge
hearing the McPherson estate's lawsuit
http://www.whyaretheydead.net/lisa_mcpherson/logs/lisa1130.htm
1AM Dr Johnson just visited. Not possible for her to have any more
chloralhydrate. I need to get 4 more valarian root capsules into her &
a quart of fluid.
I am mixing up a medium of mashed bannana, OJ & some of her strawberry
protein drink to mask the taste of the valarian root.
1:30 - 5:00 I probably got the equivalent of 3 valarien root caps into her.
It took 4 feedings over a 4 1/2 hour period.
She will appear to be very cooperative -- hold her mouth open, make
eye contact, at as if she is there, then close the back of her
throat & not swallow. Her voice becomes nasal & she mutters rather than
pronounce her words properly. My idea of closing her nose so she has to
swallow so she can breathe through her mouth is only marginally successfull.
She either swallows & breathes or she lets everything in her mouth come out.
when she refuses to swallow & just spits everything out I leave her alone
& try again later.
She just dozed for minutes at a time. No signifigant block of sleep.
8 AM Cleaning her & the room & getting her into clean cloths.
She has had 2 very small BMs in the past 24 hrs & has urinated 5 times.
I am going to give her more bannana & finish her shake & give her herb
tea also.
9:15 AM I got a small amount of the bannana & shake mixture into her &
about an ounce of tea.
She is much more physically strong this AM. She sits up frequently &
for long periods of time. Whereas yesterday I only saw her sit up once
-- she was lying on the floor scooting around. She is using her
legs to kick again. Yesterday it wasn't much of a threat.
http://www.whyaretheydead.net/lisa_mcpherson/logs/lisa1201.htm
FSO 00214
1/12/95 1100
MLO Report
Lisa McPherson
Given 2 gm MgCl2 IM at 1030 + 2 - 500mg Chloral Hydrate (capsule pierced
and as much possible squirted into her mouth). She swallowed and fell
asleep in the middle of a sentence. Resp rate 18-24.
Extremities still cool but not cold. S. DLV. needs relief now;
I will stay until replacement comes.
Plan:
1. Valerie or watch personnel w/medical training for next 8 hrs.
2. Needs 2L fluids when awake and attempt to feed.
3. Call if any ?'s prob's.
ML,
JJohnson M.O.
Rasta Robert
--//->
Bent Stigsen
> This guy (or girl) is posting with "X-No-archive: yes". meaning that
> his posts are not being archived in the ARS database, meaning they
> will not show up on the Google, and not on any search.
>
> Now, why would someone want to do that? Doesn't he(she) stand for what
> he(she) writes?
Ahem, dont forget that you are anonymous. You can write anything without
any consequences.
If Skipper writes something rubbish, then people will respond to that.
He cannot prevent people from quoting what he says. So in effect if he
steps out of line, he can be pretty sure it will be archived anyway.
> In addition I myself post through Google, meaning on there I don't
> even see his messages. Sorry, I have not much to say in favour of this
> individual!!!!
Complain to Google. It is them who made it that way. They could have
chosen to have them available for a week or so, and then flush them from
the archive.
/Bent
[snip]
Nessie
"Bent Stigsen" <ng...@thevoid.dk> schreef in bericht
news:41acecfc$0$79960$edfa...@dread15.news.tele.dk...
> Spacetraveler wrote:
> > This guy (or girl) is posting with "X-No-archive: yes". meaning that
> > his posts are not being archived in the ARS database, meaning they
> > will not show up on the Google, and not on any search.
> >
> > Now, why would someone want to do that? Doesn't he(she) stand for what
> > he(she) writes?
>
> Ahem, dont forget that you are anonymous. You can write anything without
> any consequences.
> If Skipper writes something rubbish, then people will respond to that.
> He cannot prevent people from quoting what he says. So in effect if he
> steps out of line, he can be pretty sure it will be archived anyway.
Yes, but the one replying/responding to Skipper could have changed,
added or deleted anything in the message he/she doesn't like or need.
If Skipper would complain about that, he has a problem in producing
the correct posting.
henri
You were correct on the Valium. Dr. David I. Minkoff prescribed it, without
even examining Lisa McPherson. This is the reason he was suspended from
the practice of medicine by Florida's Board of Medicine.
Doctor in Lisa McPherson case suspended
By THOMAS C. TOBIN and ALISA ULFERTS
© St. Petersburg Times, published August 4, 2001
David I. Minkoff loses his license for one year for improperly prescribing
drugs for the Scientologist.
TALLAHASSEE -- Florida's Board of Medicine has sternly sanctioned Clearwater
physician David I. Minkoff, finding he improperly prescribed medicine for a
patient he had never seen -- Scientologist Lisa McPherson.
Minkoff, also a Scientologist, prescribed Valium and the muscle relaxant
chloral hydrate at the behest of unlicensed Church of Scientology staffers who
were trying to nurse McPherson, 36, through a severe mental breakdown.
When they failed after 17 days of isolating her, Minkoff was recruited again.
This time, he pronounced McPherson dead.
For his role in the 1995 episode that Minkoff himself calls a "fiasco," the
53-year-old doctor will lose his medical license for one year and then be made
to practice under probation for two more years -- unless he appeals and wins a
reversal.
He also was fined $10,000.
The board's action Friday is the first official consequence for anyone
connected with McPherson's death, which resulted in a two-year criminal
investigation, made headlines around the world, claimed the career of the local
medical examiner and plunged the church into a tumultuous period that sapped its
resources and hurt membership.
The investigation brought two unprecedented felony charges, not against
individuals but against a corporation: Scientology's main entity in Clearwater.
One of them, the charge of practicing medicine without a license, was related to
Minkoff's actions. The other was neglect of a disabled adult.
Both were dropped last year after Pinellas prosecutors reluctantly concluded
their case had been wrecked by Pinellas-Pasco Medical Examiner Joan Wood, who
changed her conclusions about the cause of McPherson's death and later retired
under pressure.
Meanwhile, a wrongful death lawsuit filed in 1997 by McPherson's family moves
slowly through the Pinellas court system.
On Friday, Minkoff appeared before the board to answer charges that he
prescribed medication for McPherson over the phone without examining her and
that he relied on the church's non-licensed medical officers in treating
McPherson.
However, he said nothing during the hearing and declined to speak to the St.
Petersburg Times afterward. Board members agreed to stay Minkoff's suspension
pending his appeal, but added a few words to their punishment.
"This is a healthy, 36-year-old female who died for no reason I can tell,"
said Rafael Miguel, one of two board members who wanted to revoke Minkoff's
license. In the last fiscal year, only 8 percent of doctors disciplined by the
Board of Medicine were suspended.
Ken Dandar, the Tampa lawyer who represents McPherson's family, called the
sanctions too lenient. Dandar set off the inquiry that led to Friday's action,
complaining about Minkoff to state health officials in 1997.
He nevertheless credited Minkoff on Friday for the candid accounts he has
given in sworn statements. It was Minkoff, a Scientologist for 20 years, who
told prosecutors in 1998 that McPherson's care at Scientology's Fort Harrison
Hotel in Clearwater was seriously flawed.
McPherson's troubles surfaced Nov. 18, 1995, when she disrobed in the street
after a minor auto accident. Paramedics took her to Morton Plant Hospital for
psychiatric evaluation, but several Scientologists showed up to object, citing
the church's hard stance against psychiatry.
When they took McPherson to the Fort Harrison Hotel, a Scientology retreat,
she became psychotic. Two days later, church staffers called Minkoff, saying
they needed something to help McPherson sleep.
The doctor is a "public" Scientologist, not one of the uniformed members who
staff the church.
Though Minkoff had never seen McPherson and didn't know her medical history,
he prescribed liquid Valium. He also wrote the prescription in the name of the
Scientology staffer who was sent to pick it up -- not the actions of a
"reasonably prudent physician," according to a stinging document written earlier
this year by the state's Agency for Health Care Administration.
Nine days later, the church staffers called again. This time, Minkoff
prescribed chloral hydrate, a prescription sedative, again without examining
McPherson or gleaning information about her medical situation.
On Dec. 5, 1995, when Scientology staffers realized McPherson was physically
ill, they again called Minkoff, who says he told them to take her to the nearest
hospital. But the staffers persisted, saying they feared doctors at Morton Plant
Hospital, two minutes away, would put her in the psychiatric ward.
Minkoff, who worked in the emergency room at a New Port Richey hospital 45
minutes away, finally agreed to see McPherson. He was "shocked out of my wits"
when she arrived.
After pronouncing McPherson dead, Minkoff told prosecutors he screamed at
church staffer Janis Johnson for bringing him someone in such "horrific" shape.
Johnson was an unlicensed physician.
An autopsy found McPherson died of a blood clot in her left lung.
Minkoff, who also works at a Clearwater clinic, was contrite with prosecutors
about his role, saying, "It was foolish to do what I did."
Because of statements like that, Minkoff has come to be one of the better
witnesses against his own church as McPherson's relatives press their lawsuit.
Once a defendant in that lawsuit, he has settled with McPherson's family.
Minkoff has said Johnson never revealed the severity of McPherson's psychosis.
Had he known more, he would have acted differently, he told prosecutors.
The church had no response Friday.
Minkoff's attorney, Bruce Lamb, reminded medical board members Friday that
Minkoff has practiced medicine since 1995 without incident. Suspending him
immediately could put other patients in jeopardy, he said. "There was no intent
or bad act committed by Dr. Minkoff."
Keith Henson
wrote:
>X-No-archive: yes
>
>BTW, if you plan to make silly accusations, could you at least learn to
>spell?
>
>Your TRs went OUT, "spacetraveler"!
>
>Flunk for lousy "bullbait"! (And for lousy bullshit.)
Go easy on Spacetraveler Skipper. He (or more likely she) isn't a
native English speaker.
But we could suggest she/he turn on spell check in their news reader.
Keith Henson
Warrior
>>>Spacetraveler wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ENEMY - Suppressive Person order. May not be communicated with by
>>>> anyone except an Ethics Officer, Master at Arms, a Hearing Officer or
>>>> a Board or Committee. May be restrained or imprisoned.
>> In article <slrncqmhg4....@localhost.localdomain>, Zed asked:
>>>
>>>May be *what*??
>Warrior wrote in news:<111783306.0...@drn.newsguy.com>:
>>
>> Restrained or imprisoned, e.g., the way Lisa McPherson was restrained.
>>
>> What Scientology doesn't tell people when they join is that if you, as
>> a member become too much of a public relations problem, there is a
>> strong likelihood you will be restrained, isolated and drugged.>
In article <9f53d1e2.04113...@posting.google.com>,
Spacetraveler says...
>
>Restrained and isolated may be.
There's no maybe about it. There are many known instances of
isolation and restraint being used on members of Scientology. And
there are verifiable instances of kidnapping of members.
>Drugged however, don't think so, haven't seen this at any time and
>I have been there a long time.
I was in Scientology for 14 years and in the Sea Org almost 8 years
of those years at ASHO Day. You say you were 'there', but don't
specify. Where were you a staff of public member?
>> I know of many who suffered this fate.
>So? Who? Drugged?
My ex-wife
'Madwog' http://tinyurl.com/3qfax
Roxanne Friend http://tinyurl.com/56vtf
Peter Lewis http://tinyurl.com/64ysf
David Voorhies http://tinyurl.com/64ysf
>> Sea Organization units, like Flag, can invoke Flag Order 1467
>> "Conditions" written by L. Ron Hubbard (I have a copy). A
>> "condition of enemy" can be assigned to members who engage
>> in "destructive actions", such as causing a "shore flap". And
>> "treason" is assigned for such actions as "worsening shore
>> relations".
>Any organization should protect it's good name, not so? You should
>quote may be the whole FO.
It's not necessary. I will send a copy to anyone who requests one by
postal mail. Contact me by email first.
>> And lest anyone doubt that Lisa caused a "shore flap" by walking in
>> public naked while babbling about Scientology, Hubbard, "clear" and
>> such nonsense as "trying to male the object hold still", let me say this:
>> I know of instances of members being assigned "treason" for such minor
>> "shore flaps" as jaywalking. (And I have an original document regarding
>> this, as well.)
>You don't need that, I can acknowledge that, but.... start saying NO,
>I said no, I did NOT comply, and you know what....all was DROPPED,
>NOTHING happened!!!!!
This makes no sense.
>It ONLY can be done to you if you yourself SUBMIT to that! Meaning
>that any of those now complaining about what the organization has
>done to them, are basically not much of characters. They did not say
>NO when they should have!
I'm talking about what was done to others, not to me. Some of the
individuals DID say NO, but were forcibly restrained, isolated and then
drugged to shut them up. But don't worry. Most of them are too afraid
to speak out for fear that they will be Fair Gamed. Some have changed
their name and have tried to put their lives back together. One is now
permanently disabled, and another is in a mental institution. If you never
suffered like the individuals I know, I'm happy for you, Spacetraveler.
Now for some of Hubbard's 'scripture':
"Death, insanity, aberration, or merely a slavish obedience can be
efficiently effected by the use of Black Dianetics. Further, adequate
laws do not exist at this time to bar the use of these techniques. The
law provides that only the individual so wronged can make complaint
or swear out a warrant for offenders using these techniques."
"A person on whom Black Dianetics has been employed seldom retains
the sanity or will to make a complaint, or does not know he has been
victimized. In addition, persons claiming such offenses against their
persons are commonly catalogued by doctors as suffering from delusion.
Thus the employer of Black Dianetics can escape unpunished under
existing legal procedures."
-- L. Ron Hubbard, circa September 1952
Spacetraveler
You know, that's an opinion of someone...
The claim it being forced upon here still is unsupported. It may very
well have been by doctor's description. I don't think we have complete
data about all this.
No, this will not do.
Spacetraveler
Spacetraveler
Alright then. Still kinda thin don't you think. Could have been by
doctor's description, and we don't even talk about heavy drugs. Also
incorporate the fact in your reasoning that these were simple ordinary
staffmembers. And every 2 hours or so they were replaced by others.
Are they all in the plot?
In addition. I think that L. Ron Hubbard's regulations about drugs are
pretty specific. Also you should divide psychiatric drugs from this.
So, even if someone forced (unsupported claim so far) it it may not
have been based on his policies.
Spacetraveler
Spacetraveler
See, there you go!
Spacetraveler
Spacetraveler
Ah, so you acknowledge that? Thank you!
> Do you think that people who are
> not the same as you do not deserve decent treatment?
Did I make that claim? Do you think I am out of compassion? Do you
think I don't care? Why did I endanger myself to help others who were
under unjust hardship. I was one of the very few who did so.
But anyhow if someone put a gun into your hands, and then you start
shooting people, well... then YOU are responsible, and in the end they
may very well run a lot of electricity through your body until you are
... dead.
Spacetraveler
Spacetraveler
May very well be so, I don't know who Tom Klemesrud is though. Anyhow
the claim that if this is true in this case, I say 'if', then from
personal observations I can say this is definitely not a common
practice at all! I was actually physically there and I was on these
lines that I would have known about these things.
Spacetraveler
realpch
Yeah, the compassion thing seemed wanting in your post. You have
suggested that Lisa must have been "not much of character" for winding
up as she did.
> But anyhow if someone put a gun into your hands, and then you start
> shooting people, well... then YOU are responsible, and in the end they
> may very well run a lot of electricity through your body until you are
> ... dead.
>
> Spacetraveler
Well, there was a jump. What does that have to do with Lisa McPherson?
Peach
Spacetraveler
> Spacetraveler wrote:
> > This guy (or girl) is posting with "X-No-archive: yes". meaning that
> > his posts are not being archived in the ARS database, meaning they
> > will not show up on the Google, and not on any search.
> >
> > Now, why would someone want to do that? Doesn't he(she) stand for what
> > he(she) writes?
>
> Ahem, dont forget that you are anonymous. You can write anything without
> any consequences.
> If Skipper writes something rubbish, then people will respond to that.
> He cannot prevent people from quoting what he says. So in effect if he
> steps out of line, he can be pretty sure it will be archived anyway.
So then why does he use this non-archiving code then? It is useless.
My point is that I only see his responses to my inputs if I use a
newsreader. Responding however I do through Google for reason of
keeping my anonymity. Meaning Skipper is a kinda hiding his messages
from me.
Spacetraveler
Spacetraveler
There you go, one other reason why he should not post with this non-archiving code.
Spacetraveler
Genesis
slithers out of another self created mess.
Spacetraveler <spacetra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9f53d1e2.04113...@posting.google.com...
> "> >
http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/s/scientology/mcpherson.h
tm?FACTNet
> > "The Scientologists didn't literally use a turkey baster to force
> > pseudo-medical cocktails into McPherson, but a device that operates
> > under the same principle, called an irrigation syringe. Imagine a
> > needleless syringe bigger than the one used to give you a flu shot.
> > Honest-to-God medical people use it to flush wounds, said Ken
> > Dandar, the attorney for McPherson's survivors, who are suing the
> > Scientologists. McPherson was pumped with concoctions that would
> > have impressed Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde: magnesium, a sedative
> > called chloral hydrate, aspirin, the antihistamine Benadryl, and
assorted
> > vitamins and herbs. Scientology mumbo-jumbo swears it was going to
> > save her from her psychosis.
>
> You know, that's an opinion of someone...
>
> The claim it being forced upon here still is unsupported. It may very
> well have been by doctor's description. I don't think we have complete
> data about all this.
It doesn't matter what data was missing. Any person let alone
this sick doctor would be able to tell Lisa was getting worse.
She should of been sent to a hospital well before her turn to
the worse and the roach bites.
No data is needed. The cult is guilty of neglect, which caused
death.
Spacetraveler if your mom or sister was getting sicker by the
day, would you have taken them to the hospital. I think so.
The cult is guilty of neglect which caused death, and got off
pretty easy. But it will catch up to them sooner or later.
Genesis
--yep-true awareness is only enjoyed by a few--
Spacetraveler
in Google!
So now people can see how thin his defense is! Not even addressing my
arguments. The problem with you Skipper is that you do not open your
communications to me. I may be anonymous, but I have the right to do
that (and believe me I have very good reason to do so), and I am
having open communications to anyone, I am not hiding them from the
Google database, but YOU are.
Skipper also writes:
"Meanwhile, think about what a nutcase you look like to people trying
to decide if $cientologists are OK or not."
Now this is interesting is it not. He clearly points out here that he
does not want people to find out for themselves. No wonder he wants
his messages not being archived. In fact he is doing what he accuses
the Church of Scientology is doing. You slipped Skipper, you
slipped....
Spacetraveler
And now his original response in full (that he did not wanted
archived):
------------------------------------------------------------------
In article <9f53d1e2.04113...@posting.google.com>,
Spacetraveler <spacetra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> This guy (or girl) is posting with "X-No-archive: yes". meaning that
> his posts are not being archived in the ARS database, meaning they
> will not show up on the Google, and not on any search.
>
> Now, why would someone want to do that? Doesn't he(she) stand for what
> he(she) writes?
Gawrsh, Goofy, I'm just so sorry you're offended. Since most people
here know very well who I am, and since your response will be saved,
and since you're a coward hiding behind a Hotmail account (typical of
your ilk), just out yourself and name yourself and we'll just take the
X-No-archive: yes off the posts so you won't be so skeered.
Let's see who the bug really is. :-)
Meanwhile, think about what a nutcase you look like to people trying
to
decide if $cientologists are OK or not.
Spacetraveler
in Google!
Yeah, believe it or not, he appeared to have been so disturbed about
my respons to him that he felt the need to write even more!
It was as follows (his input quoted in full):
TRs go OUT, OUT, OUT for "spacetraveler" (was "Skipper" the
fianthearted poster on the ARS...) [posted under this title]
"BTW, if you plan to make silly accusations, could you at least learn
to
spell?
Your TRs went OUT, "spacetraveler"!
Flunk for lousy "bullbait"! (And for lousy bullshit.)
Start!"
Well, I let this speak for itself...
Spacetraveler
Spacetraveler
> On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:46:07 -0800, Skipper <skipsp...@charter.net>
> wrote:
>
> >X-No-archive: yes
> >
> >BTW, if you plan to make silly accusations, could you at least learn to
> >spell?
> >
> >Your TRs went OUT, "spacetraveler"!
> >
> >Flunk for lousy "bullbait"! (And for lousy bullshit.)
>
> Go easy on Spacetraveler Skipper. He (or more likely she) isn't a
> native English speaker.
Why more likely a 'she'?
> But we could suggest she/he turn on spell check in their news reader.
I am not using a newsreader when posting, haven't seen a spelling
checker on the Google (or I must have missed it).
Spacetraveler
realpch
>
> realpch <rea...@aol.com> wrote in message news:<41ACA2CA...@aol.com>...
> > Spacetraveler wrote:
> > >
> > > Warrior <war...@xenu.ca> wrote in message news:<111783306.0...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> > <snip>
> > > > And lest anyone doubt that Lisa caused a "shore flap" by walking in
> > > > public naked while babbling about Scientology, Hubbard, "clear" and
> > > > such nonsense as "trying to male the object hold still", let me say this:
> > > > I know of instances of members being assigned "treason" for such minor
> > > > "shore flaps" as jaywalking. (And I have an original document regarding
> > > > this, as well.)
> > >
> > > You don't need that, I can acknowledge that, but.... start saying NO,
> > > I said no, I did NOT comply, and you know what....all was DROPPED,
> > > NOTHING happened!!!!!
> > >
> > > It ONLY can be done to you if you yourself SUBMIT to that! Meaning
> > > that any of those now complaining about what the organization has done
> > > to them, are basically not much of characters. They did not say NO
> > > when they should have!
> > >
> > > Spacetraveler
> >
> > Here we have a demonstation of the "They Pulled It In" philosophy.
> > Possibly also "If It's True For You.."
>
> Ah, so you acknowledge that? Thank you!
By the way, I don't agree with either of those notions ("They Pulled It
In" & "If It's True For You..") as absolutes. Especially "They Pulled It
In". I used to believe in that one myself, but came to see it as a kind
of voodoo charm against misfortune: "Bad things happen to other people
because they did something bad, if not in this life, why they must have
had some other previous life in which to mess up, therefore, all I have
to do is never step on the cracks, and everything will be ok."
Of couse, our misfortunes are often self-created, but surely not always.
Otherwise you find yourself in the uncomfortable position of having to
explain the misfortunes of some month old baby on his/her past lives.
This may all be very well if you only hang out with other people who
believe in past lives, but inconvenient if you associate with those who
think that this is it.
Peach
Zinj
spacetra...@hotmail.com says...
"Benzedrine often helps a case run."
- L. Ron Hubbard, The Intensive Processing Procedure, 1950
"The task with a Type Three is *NOT* treatment as such. It is to provide
a relatively safe environment and quiet and rest and no treatment of a
mental nature at all. Giving him a quiet court with a motionless object
in it might do the trick if he is permitted to sit there unmolested.
Medical care of a very unbrutal nature is necessary, as intravenous
feeding and soporifics (sleeping and quietening drugs) may be
necessary."
- L. Ron Hubbard
"I'm drinking lots of rum and popping pinks and greys."
- L. Ron Hubbard
Zinj
--
You can lead a Clam to Reason, but you Can't Make him Think
Spacetraveler
Digging in the archives are you? This is tiring... You understand a
concept or you do not. Drugging is not a standard practice with
Scientology, live with it.
And where is that last sentence coming from, hmmm?
Spacetraveler
Mike Gormez
wrote in <41ad...@news2.lightlink.com>:
>> You know, that's an opinion of someone...
>>
>> The claim it being forced upon here still is unsupported. It may very
>> well have been by doctor's description. I don't think we have complete
>> data about all this.
>
>It doesn't matter what data was missing. Any person let alone
>this sick doctor would be able to tell Lisa was getting worse.
I don't know what pleasure you derive from talking with the exclamation
mark obsessed teenager but you fail to see you've stepped in a trap. The
trap being that you can never ever prove that it wasn't someone's opinion.
Even if the syringe would have damaged Lisa's throat it would be the
opinion of the MD. So you'll never make a point. Not unless you can show
pictures of the fights the attendends had to get that stuff in her mouth
== which they did as they told themselves. And again interpreting those
images would be an opinion again
In short your stacked against impossible ods. It is what scientologists
like to do.
--
Mike Gormez
- Stop deceptive recruitment into scientology http://stop-wise.biz/
- www.whyaretheydead.net documents the deaths of scientologists
- "There can be no keener revelation of a society's soul than the way it
treats its children." -- Nelson Mandela. Scientologist often attach more
importance to scientology than children www.taxexemptchildabuse.net
Bent Stigsen
> Bent Stigsen <ng...@thevoid.dk> wrote in message news:<41acecfc$0$79960$edfa...@dread15.news.tele.dk>...
>
>>Spacetraveler wrote:
>>
>>>This guy (or girl) is posting with "X-No-archive: yes". meaning that
>>>his posts are not being archived in the ARS database, meaning they
>>>will not show up on the Google, and not on any search.
>>>
>>>Now, why would someone want to do that? Doesn't he(she) stand for what
>>>he(she) writes?
>>
>>Ahem, dont forget that you are anonymous. You can write anything without
>>any consequences.
>
>>If Skipper writes something rubbish, then people will respond to that.
>>He cannot prevent people from quoting what he says. So in effect if he
>>steps out of line, he can be pretty sure it will be archived anyway.
>
> So then why does he use this non-archiving code then? It is useless.
As it works now, yes it is useless.
As to why. I can think of many reasons, but cant answer for him.
> My point is that I only see his responses to my inputs if I use a
> newsreader. Responding however I do through Google for reason of
> keeping my anonymity. Meaning Skipper is a kinda hiding his messages
> from me.
I think his use of it is correct. The idea of marking posts for archival
or not, I think is good, but Googles present implementation of it is
flawed.
It should not be Skippers responsibility to check if he responds to a
poster that might not see his post. He is consistent in using the
header, meaning it is not something "just for you".
/Bent
Rasta Robert
> Rasta Robert <r...@dds.nl.ReMoVe_ThIs.invalid> wrote in message news:<slrncqpp...@localhost.localdomain>...
>>
>> I was mistaken on the Valium, it was Valerian root, but there are several
>> mentions of chloral hydrate being given to her.
>>
Turns out that I was not mistaken on the Valium and that the doctor
wrote perscriptions for both Valium and chloral hydrate without
seeing Lisa in person.
>>
>> This doesn't really sound all that voluntary to me:
>>
>> Lisa McPherson's baby-watch logs
>>
>> The logs were released in the summer of 1997 on orders from the judge
>> hearing the McPherson estate's lawsuit
>>
>>
>> http://www.whyaretheydead.net/lisa_mcpherson/logs/lisa1130.htm
>> She will appear to be very cooperative -- hold her mouth open, make
>> eye contact, at as if she is there, then close the back of her
>> throat & not swallow. Her voice becomes nasal & she mutters rather than
>> pronounce her words properly. My idea of closing her nose so she has to
>> swallow so she can breathe through her mouth is only marginally successfull.
>> She either swallows & breathes or she lets everything in her mouth come out.
>>
>> when she refuses to swallow & just spits everything out I leave her alone
>> & try again later.
>> She is much more physically strong this AM. She sits up frequently &
>> for long periods of time. Whereas yesterday I only saw her sit up once
>> -- she was lying on the floor scooting around. She is using her
>> legs to kick again. Yesterday it wasn't much of a threat.
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.whyaretheydead.net/lisa_mcpherson/logs/lisa1201.htm
>>
>> FSO 00214
>>
>> 1/12/95 1100
>>
>> MLO Report
>>
>> Lisa McPherson
>>
>> Given 2 gm MgCl2 IM at 1030 + 2 - 500mg Chloral Hydrate (capsule pierced
>> and as much possible squirted into her mouth). She swallowed and fell
>> asleep in the middle of a sentence. Resp rate 18-24.
>> Extremities still cool but not cold. S. DLV. needs relief now;
>> I will stay until replacement comes.
>>
>
> Alright then. Still kinda thin don't you think. Could have been by
> doctor's description, and we don't even talk about heavy drugs. Also
> incorporate the fact in your reasoning that these were simple ordinary
> staffmembers. And every 2 hours or so they were replaced by others.
> Are they all in the plot?
Chloral hydrate and Valium are 'no heavy drugs' in your book???
Jeez... chloral hydrate was the first of the barbiturates to be
synthesized. Use of it has been largely abandoned by now.
as you can read in the information cited below, especially combinations
with other medicines (including vitamins and other sedatives, which
would include the herbal valerian drops...) can lead to unpredictable
reactions. Many of the symptoms described in the baby watch logs
look like they could be signs of chloral hydrate overdose and of
negative interactions of chloral hydrates with other things Lisa was given.
http://www.pamf.org/teen/risk/drugs/daterape/chloralhydrate.html
Information on Chloral Hydrate from Palo Alto Medical Foundation
The oldest of the hypnotic (sleep inducing) depressants, chloral hydrate
was first synthesized in 1832.
"Mickey Finn" or "knockout drops"
* When chloral hydrate is prescribed by a doctor, it is taken as a syrup
or soft gelatin capsule.
* A solution of chloral hydrate and alcohol constituted the infamous
"knockout drops" or "Mickey Finn." This form of chloral hydrate is used
in drug facilitated sexual assault, or "date rape".
Chloral hydrate takes effect in about 30 minutes and will induce sleep
in about an hour.
* A toxic dose produces severe respiratory depression and very low
blood pressure.
* Chronic use is associated with liver damage and a severe
withdrawal syndrome.
* Signs of overdose include confusion (continuing); convulsions (seizures);
difficulty in swallowing; drowsiness (severe); low body temperature ;
nausea, vomiting, or stomach pain (severe); shortness of breath or
troubled breathing; slow or irregular heartbeat; slurred speech; staggering;
and weakness (severe).
It is not considered an addictive drug like cocaine, heroin or alcohol
because it does not produce the same compulsive drug-seeking behavior.
However, like addictive drugs, chloral hydrate produces greater
tolerance in some users who take the drug repeatedly.
These users must take higher doses to achieve the same results as
they have had in the past. This could be an extremely dangerous
practice because of the unpredictability of the drug effect on
an individual.
http://drugs.uta.edu/chloral.html
Chloral Hydrate
First synthesized in 1832, chloral hydrate was the first
depressant developed for the specific purpose of inducing sleep.
Currently marketed as syrups or soft gelatin capsules, chloral
hydrate takes effect in a relatively short time (about 30 minutes)
and will induce sleep in an hour. In Victorian England, a solution
of chloral and alcohol constituted the infamous "knockout drops"
or "Mickey Finn."
Today depressants such as chloral hydrate are packaged with
labels warning against the danger of mixing these kinds of
sedatives with alcohol or other depressants. We now know that
a mixture of morphine and alcohol, for example, is likely to
bring about an episode of psychosis in the user, and morphine mixed
with valium is such a deadly combination that it is sometimes
used to euthanize critically ill patients.
In the nineteenth century, however, chloral hydrate was often
used by alcoholics whose sleep patterns had become disturbed by
excessive drinking. The danger of such a potent mixture and the highly
addictive properties of chloral resulted in "two cravings for a
single craving," as detailed in 1880 in the Quarterly Journal of
Inebriety. At the end of the century, the medical community was finally
becoming aware of the problems associated with the increasing popularity
of hypnotic drugs such as chloral hydrate.
Chloral hydrate, like several other nineteenth-century depressants,
found eager users among the literary and artistic community of Victorian
England. Poet and painter Dante Gabriel Rossetti became a virtual recluse
after his wife Elizabeth Siddal died of a laudanum overdose, and his
grief and guilt led to a debilitating addiction to chloral hydrate, which
lasted until his death in 1882. Writer W.E. Henley's 1875 poem "Interior"
from his series "In Hospital," paints a grim picture of the use of
chloral as a sedative agent frequently administered to dying patients
by health-care workers.
Despite the abuse and mis-administration of the sedative, chloral
hydrate did fulfill a need for a drug that would ease sleeplessness
due to pain or insomnia and is considered a positive medical
discovery. At therapeutic doses (and without the introduction
of alcohol and other depressants), chloral produces few negative
side effects and is competent in promoting sleep. Although chloral
hydrate is still encountered today, its use has declined with the
introduction of other barbiturates.
> In addition. I think that L. Ron Hubbard's regulations about drugs are
> pretty specific. Also you should divide psychiatric drugs from this.
Why would you think that chloral hydrate is not a 'psychiatric drug'?
That seems rather an arbitrary choice..
> So, even if someone forced (unsupported claim so far) it it may not
> have been based on his policies.
Hubbard appears to have written that for PTS type 3 handling,
"intravenous feeding and soporifics (sleeping and quietening
drugs) may be necessary."
(from Hubbard Advanced Auditors Course Academy Level IV,
HCO Bulletin of 24 November 1965, Level IV Search And Discovery -
Prerequisite: A knowledge of ethics definitions and purposes).
Bent Stigsen
Yes that is a consequence of the No-archive as it is, and a problem for
Skipper. But people can and *do* that anyway, by making new threads with
snippets of text with no reference of origin, or referencing a source
which in turn have no reference of origin.
I think the implementation should be different. His post and all
subsequent replies should also be marked 'not for archival', if it
should make any sense to me. It would be usefull for Off topic threads
as well.
For instance this stray in the thread is irrelevant to the thread, and
the discussion has hardly any value in the future, not with regards to
scientology anyway. Not having strays like this archived at all would be
beneficial to future anthropologist searching through google for clues.
/Bent
Nessie
If Lisa would have willingly taken the drugs they would not have
needed to restrain her and use a 'baster'.
A licensed doctor has no authority to give permission to private
persons to use drugs via a 'baster' to drug a person. The woman,
he spoke to only by phone and who was a doctor, had lost
her license some years before. Dr. Denk did not examine Lisa, or
see her for that matter, before he prescribed the Valium. He was
sanctioned by loosing his licence for one year, I think is was.
Frieda Wellington
> hkhe...@rogers.com (Keith Henson) wrote in message news:<41afa367...@news2.lightlink.com>...
> > On 30 Nov 2004 06:59:51 -0800, spacetra...@hotmail.com
> > (Spacetraveler) wrote:
> >
> > >Warrior <war...@xenu.ca> wrote in message news:<111783306.0...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> > They used chloral hydrate on Tom Klemesrud according to a declaration
> > he wrote and dosed Arnie Lerma by putting LSD in his toothpaste. It's
> > just part of scientology as practiced by CoS.
>
> May very well be so, I don't know who Tom Klemesrud is though. Anyhow
> the claim that if this is true in this case, I say 'if', then from
> personal observations I can say this is definitely not a common
> practice at all! I was actually physically there and I was on these
> lines that I would have known about these things.
Search groups.google.com for the author "tom...@netcom.com"
This is the name he used to post his adventures with Scientology.
>
> Spacetraveler
Nessie
"Spacetraveler" <spacetra...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:9f53d1e2.04113...@posting.google.com...
news:<41acecfc$0$79960$edfa...@dread15.news.tele.dk>...
> > Spacetraveler wrote:
> > > This guy (or girl) is posting with "X-No-archive: yes". meaning that
> > > his posts are not being archived in the ARS database, meaning they
> > > will not show up on the Google, and not on any search.
> > >
> > > Now, why would someone want to do that? Doesn't he(she) stand for what
> > > he(she) writes?
> >
> > Ahem, dont forget that you are anonymous. You can write anything without
> > any consequences.
>
> > If Skipper writes something rubbish, then people will respond to that.
> > He cannot prevent people from quoting what he says. So in effect if he
> > steps out of line, he can be pretty sure it will be archived anyway.
>
> So then why does he use this non-archiving code then? It is useless.
> My point is that I only see his responses to my inputs if I use a
> newsreader. Responding however I do through Google for reason of
> keeping my anonymity.
Which isn't really anonymous at all.
Meaning Skipper is a kinda hiding his messages
> from me.
Come on, he posted that way long before you turned up here.
Gerry Armstrong
Mike O'Connor
spacetra...@hotmail.com (Spacetraveler) wrote:
> May very well be so, I don't know who Tom Klemesrud is though. Anyhow
> the claim that if this is true in this case, I say 'if', then from
> personal observations I can say this is definitely not a common
> practice at all! I was actually physically there and I was on these
> lines that I would have known about these things.
Oh, the mind-corruption of "true is what's true for you." An evil
concept central to the scam. It allows a mere "I've never seen it" to
disprove things, and a mere "it works for me" to prove them. Which, of
course, is the insidious purpose.
--
LYING IS A SCIENTOLOGY SACRAMENT
ASK THEM ABOUT XENU
Remember Lisa McPherson
Mike O'Connor
> Given 2 gm MgCl2 IM at 1030 + 2 - 500mg Chloral Hydrate (capsule pierced
> and as much possible squirted into her mouth). She swallowed and fell
> asleep in the middle of a sentence. Resp rate 18-24.
[...]
> Alright then. Still kinda thin don't you think. Could have been by
> doctor's description, and we don't even talk about heavy drugs.
Chloral Hydrate is as heavy as they come. it is a HYPNOTIC sedative.
Sounds odd, the cult giving out hypnotics, but odd is a word that comes
up a lot around here. Confusion is a common side effect. And guess what.
The sedative dose is 250mg.
They gave her the HYPNOTIC dose, 500mg. These bozos are giving her twice
the normal dose, the HYPNOTIC dose, squeezing it down her throat. Given
by non-doctors, illegally, without a doctor's examination, via an
illegal prescription.
Here is a gov't reference on the drug itself:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/medmaster/a682201.html
Here is a reference on proper dosage:
http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic3/chloralhyd_ids.htm
This shouldn't have you making excuses, it should be making you sick.
Nessie
"Gerry Armstrong" <ge...@gerryarmstrong.org> schreef in bericht
news:peksq05aipff00dog...@4ax.com...
Damn, I knew, thanks!
Keith Henson
(Spacetraveler) wrote:
>hkhe...@rogers.com (Keith Henson) wrote in message news:<41afa367...@news2.lightlink.com>...
>> On 30 Nov 2004 06:59:51 -0800, spacetra...@hotmail.com
>> (Spacetraveler) wrote:
>>
>> >Warrior <war...@xenu.ca> wrote in message news:<111783306.0...@drn.newsguy.com>...
>>
>> snip
>>
>> >> Restrained or imprisoned, e.g., the way Lisa McPherson was restrained.
>> >>
>> >> What Scientology doesn't tell people when they join is that if you, as
>> >> a member become too much of a public relations problem, there is a
>> >> strong likelihood you will be restrained, isolated and drugged.>
>> >
>> >Restrained and isolated may be. Drugged however, don't think so,
>> >haven't seen this at any time and I have been there a long time.
>>
>> Drugging Lisa McPherson with chloral hydrate (a nasty sedative, the
>> classic "knock out drops") and valium is part of the baby watch logs.
>>
>> They used chloral hydrate on Tom Klemesrud according to a declaration
>> he wrote and dosed Arnie Lerma by putting LSD in his toothpaste. It's
>> just part of scientology as practiced by CoS.
>
>May very well be so, I don't know who Tom Klemesrud is though.
Summary article about the attack on Tom here:
http://www.google.ca/groups?selm=419becce.36340793%40news2.lightlink.com&output=gplain
Declaration about being dosed with chloral hydrate here:
http://www.operatingthetan.com/tomklem.pdf
>Anyhow
>the claim that if this is true in this case, I say 'if', then from
>personal observations I can say this is definitely not a common
>practice at all! I was actually physically there and I was on these
>lines that I would have known about these things.
I don't want you to say anything that would get you exposed, but I
*really* doubt you were "on lines" with DM, Moxon, Linda Woolard and
Eugene Ingram doing dirty tricks in LA back in 1995.
I agree it's not a "common practice" since getting caught for dosing
someone with a schedule 4 drug in the course of another felony is good
for up to 40 years in a federal prison.
Organized scientology is run by outright criminals, but you already
knew that.
Keith Henson
Lady Chatterly
Armstrong <ge...@gerryarmstrong.org> wrote:
>
>Dr. Minkoff, not Denk.
He went far out.
--
Lady Chatterly
"Could this tender and sick *devotion* you publicly herald for Lady
Chatterly be some *perverted* extended *projection* of that
uncontrolled *fantasy* you have with *mechanical* objects ?" -- PVTS
Zed
In article <9f53d1e2.04112...@posting.google.com>, Spacetraveler wrote:
> You can read, can't you?
Yes. I do not like what I am reading.
> ANY larger organization, company or whatever has guards to protect the
> area from those who wants to destroy and attack, or steal something.
I notice how you automatically assume that anyone the Co$ labels "Enemy" is
morally identical to someone who is a dangerous criminal. Why do you assume
that?
> They have the right to restrained or imprison. Do you have a problem
> with that?
I have no problem with using necessary force to restrain someone who is a
clear and present danger. I'm not sure what that has got
to do with a policy letter which says, in total, "may be
restrained or imprisoned", with no other qualifications. You appear to think
that this will only be ever used against Bad Guys(tm). Do you have any
actual factual basis for that opinion?
Zed
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Spacetraveler
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> In article <9f53d1e2.04112...@posting.google.com>, Spacetraveler wrote:
>
> > You can read, can't you?
>
> Yes. I do not like what I am reading.
Because you make something out of it what it doesn't say.
>
> > ANY larger organization, company or whatever has guards to protect the
> > area from those who wants to destroy and attack, or steal something.
>
> I notice how you automatically assume that anyone the Co$ labels "Enemy" is
> morally identical to someone who is a dangerous criminal. Why do you assume
> that?
You don't know much about these conditionformula's do you? If you
would, you may find that your respons was quite silly.
>
> > They have the right to restrained or imprison. Do you have a problem
> > with that?
>
> I have no problem with using necessary force to restrain someone who is a
> clear and present danger. I'm not sure what that has got
> to do with a policy letter which says, in total, "may be
> restrained or imprisoned", with no other qualifications. You appear to think
> that this will only be ever used against Bad Guys(tm). Do you have any
> actual factual basis for that opinion?
Again learn about conditionformula's...
Spacetraveler
realpch
>
> In article <41AFC753...@aol.com>, rea...@aol.com says...
> > Spacetraveler wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > > Was she a strong character in your opinion? That is per the data available.
> >
> > Not apparently in her later days, when she was ill.
>
> I think that it's inconceivable that anyone of 'strong character' could
> have written the 'Knowledge Reports' which Lisa wrote far prior to her
> death.
>
> But, Scientology is about the destruction of character, and even at its
> most successful, it doesn't justify the degradation its victims are
> subjected to.
>
> Much less death.
>
> Zinj
> --
> You can lead a Clam to Reason, but you Can't Make him Think
Well I was including that Knowledge Report era in the mental illness.
Just about everything that I read that she wrote was absolutely
heart-rending. It was confused, it was agonizing, it was circular, it
was anything but healthy.
Peach
realpch
>
> realpch <rea...@aol.com> wrote in message news:<41AD623A...@aol.com>...
> > Spacetraveler wrote:
> > >
> > > realpch <rea...@aol.com> wrote in message news:<41ACA2CA...@aol.com>...
> > > > >
> > > > > Warrior <war...@xenu.ca> wrote in message news:<111783306.0...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> > <snip>
> > > > > > public naked while babbling about Scientology, Hubbard, "clear" and
> > > > > > such nonsense as "trying to male the object hold still", let me say this:
> > > > > > I know of instances of members being assigned "treason" for such minor
> > > > > > "shore flaps" as jaywalking. (And I have an original document regarding
> > > > > > this, as well.)
> > > > >
> > > > > You don't need that, I can acknowledge that, but.... start saying NO,
> > > > > I said no, I did NOT comply, and you know what....all was DROPPED,
> > > > > NOTHING happened!!!!!
> > > > >
> > > > > It ONLY can be done to you if you yourself SUBMIT to that! Meaning
> > > > > that any of those now complaining about what the organization has done
> > > > > to them, are basically not much of characters. They did not say NO
> > > > > when they should have!
> > > > >
> > > > > Spacetraveler
> > > >
> > > > Here we have a demonstation of the "They Pulled It In" philosophy.
> > > > Possibly also "If It's True For You.."
> > >
> > > Ah, so you acknowledge that? Thank you!
> > >
> > > > not the same as you do not deserve decent treatment?
> > >
> > > Did I make that claim? Do you think I am out of compassion? Do you
> > > think I don't care? Why did I endanger myself to help others who were
> > > under unjust hardship. I was one of the very few who did so.
> >
> > Yeah, the compassion thing seemed wanting in your post. You have
> > suggested that Lisa must have been "not much of character" for winding
> > up as she did.
>
> Was she a strong character in your opinion? That is per the data available.
Not apparently in her later days, when she was ill. She was mentally ill
at her death, and apparently for some time before. When a person is in
the throes of this sort of illness, their normal character may be
totally elipsed. One does not measure their character by their behaviour
at such a time. It's like saying someone with chicken pox is a weakling
for lying in bed.
> > > But anyhow if someone put a gun into your hands, and then you start
> > > shooting people, well... then YOU are responsible, and in the end they
> > > may very well run a lot of electricity through your body until you are
> > > ... dead.
> > >
> > > Spacetraveler
> >
> > Well, there was a jump. What does that have to do with Lisa McPherson?
>
> Not much, only about everything.
>
> Spacetraveler
Ok!
Peach
Spacetraveler
> >>>> anyone except an Ethics Officer, Master at Arms, a Hearing Officer or
> >>>> a Board or Committee. May be restrained or imprisoned.
>
> In article <slrncqmhg4....@localhost.localdomain>, Zed asked:
> >>>
> >>>May be *what*??
>
> >>
> >> Restrained or imprisoned, e.g., the way Lisa McPherson was restrained.
> >>
> >> What Scientology doesn't tell people when they join is that if you, as
> >> a member become too much of a public relations problem, there is a
> >> strong likelihood you will be restrained, isolated and drugged.>
>
> Spacetraveler says...
> >
> >Restrained and isolated may be.
>
> isolation and restraint being used on members of Scientology. And
> there are verifiable instances of kidnapping of members.
Well, some of these stories are rather strange I think.
>
> >Drugged however, don't think so, haven't seen this at any time and
> >I have been there a long time.
>
> I was in Scientology for 14 years and in the Sea Org almost 8 years
> of those years at ASHO Day. You say you were 'there', but don't
> specify. Where were you a staff of public member?
How come you were there so long and may be being .... well blind? Tory
had 30 not that she even in present understand much about Scientology.
Msnaire mostly, Flag, HCO mostly or Senior HCO, CMO CW for a while,
LA. Not public that is.
>
> >> I know of many who suffered this fate.
>
> >So? Who? Drugged?
>
> My ex-wife
> 'Madwog' http://tinyurl.com/3qfax
Hardly any details given.
> Roxanne Friend http://tinyurl.com/56vtf
If I recall correctly I was at Flag at the time she was there. I don't
recall here though, have to ask someone who was on public serving
lines back them.
Actually I am flabbergasted, and these people would have done all
these things at Flag and so on. I know many of those people, and I
mean many, just ordinary people. I know very well how Flag was like, I
was often going around in the Ft Harrison or other. But what you tell
me is from another world. I knew all the OSA guys (just a few
persons, females actually), CMO CW I knew all of them (partly these
were insecure youngsters), Senior HCO was also only a couple of
persons (I recall Sar Perlman, a brainless type). The FLB security
guys, there were 4 of them I recall, George, Kirk, a muscled black guy
and their senior. Kirk was the only one with brains that I recall. HCO
FSO: I knew everyone, I had close contact with the cope officer, a
black guy named Mike, he was by far the strongest character in HCO. He
would never submit to do such a thing. My friends who were on staff,
would they have known about such a thing, they would have been
furious. So, who was holding Roxanne imprisoned at Flag? And where? In
the Ft Harrison, Sandcastle, HOC, elsewhere? I knew all the buildings
they had back then. Don't you think we would have noticed if someone
was guarded with 2-5 persons?
And then we have those doing the EPF, basically cleaning floors and
rooms in the Ft Harrison and Sandcastle. Going in and out all the
rooms, they didn't notice anything either?
But that was back them. At this time I am not totally sure how Flag
is, since they barricaded the Hacienda Gardens and all that. When I
was there, it was all open space.
LA was a different caliber actually, more harsh and zombie-like you
may say.
Anyway I will ask some about Roxanne.
> Peter Lewis http://tinyurl.com/64ysf
> David Voorhies http://tinyurl.com/64ysf
Above are the same, about Lisa.
>
> >> Sea Organization units, like Flag, can invoke Flag Order 1467
> >> "Conditions" written by L. Ron Hubbard (I have a copy). A
> >> "condition of enemy" can be assigned to members who engage
> >> in "destructive actions", such as causing a "shore flap". And
> >> "treason" is assigned for such actions as "worsening shore
> >> relations".
>
> >Any organization should protect it's good name, not so? You should
> >quote may be the whole FO.
>
> It's not necessary. I will send a copy to anyone who requests one by
> postal mail. Contact me by email first.
>
> >> And lest anyone doubt that Lisa caused a "shore flap" by walking in
> >> public naked while babbling about Scientology, Hubbard, "clear" and
> >> such nonsense as "trying to male the object hold still", let me say this:
> >> I know of instances of members being assigned "treason" for such minor
> >> "shore flaps" as jaywalking. (And I have an original document regarding
> >> this, as well.)
>
> >You don't need that, I can acknowledge that, but.... start saying NO,
> >I said no, I did NOT comply, and you know what....all was DROPPED,
> >NOTHING happened!!!!!
>
> This makes no sense.
Probably because you did not act like that. If something happens that
you do not like, or you may get some screaming individual from Int or
so demaning you do so and so, well, you can say no, this may be tough,
but you have a choise.
> >It ONLY can be done to you if you yourself SUBMIT to that! Meaning
> >that any of those now complaining about what the organization has
> >done to them, are basically not much of characters. They did not say
> >NO when they should have!
>
> I'm talking about what was done to others, not to me.
Same thing.
> Some of the
> individuals DID say NO, but were forcibly restrained, isolated and then
> drugged to shut them up. But don't worry. Most of them are too afraid
> to speak out for fear that they will be Fair Gamed. Some have changed
> their name and have tried to put their lives back together. One is now
> permanently disabled, and another is in a mental institution. If you never
> suffered like the individuals I know, I'm happy for you, Spacetraveler.
You seem to think that I have not experienced any hardship. Believe me
I have, and I also survived. I am sorry, I have a hard time believing
all that you tell. Anyway I have no recall that anyone was treated
like that, not through stories from others, ethics files, or other.
Anyhow, if anyone would have tried to pull that on me, I would
literally have raised hell about it. But people could get unpleasant,
I just turned unpleasant back...
> Now for some of Hubbard's 'scripture':
>
> "Death, insanity, aberration, or merely a slavish obedience can be
> efficiently effected by the use of Black Dianetics. Further, adequate
> laws do not exist at this time to bar the use of these techniques. The
> law provides that only the individual so wronged can make complaint
> or swear out a warrant for offenders using these techniques."
>
> "A person on whom Black Dianetics has been employed seldom retains
> the sanity or will to make a complaint, or does not know he has been
> victimized. In addition, persons claiming such offenses against their
> persons are commonly catalogued by doctors as suffering from delusion.
> Thus the employer of Black Dianetics can escape unpunished under
> existing legal procedures."
> -- L. Ron Hubbard, circa September 1952
Do not that it says Black Dianetics, an not Dianetics. Your point?
Spacetraveler
Ball of Fluff
"Spacetraveler" <spacetra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9f53d1e2.04113...@posting.google.com...
> This guy (or girl) is posting with "X-No-archive: yes". meaning that
> his posts are not being archived in the ARS database,
There is no ARS database.
> meaning they
> will not show up on the Google, and not on any search.
That's all it means. That the posts aren't archived to google.
C
Spacetraveler
You say that, I did not. "They Pulled It In" & "If It's True For
You.." are your inventions. I am solely talking about the upkeep of
your integrity.
>
> Of couse, our misfortunes are often self-created, but surely not always.
> Otherwise you find yourself in the uncomfortable position of having to
> explain the misfortunes of some month old baby on his/her past lives.
> This may all be very well if you only hang out with other people who
> believe in past lives, but inconvenient if you associate with those who
> think that this is it.
Sorry, you can't rewrite the scripts for the laws of this universe.
Has not much to de with past lives either.
Spacetraveler
Spacetraveler
> In article <9f53d1e2.04113...@posting.google.com>,
> spacetra...@hotmail.com (Spacetraveler) wrote:
>
> > May very well be so, I don't know who Tom Klemesrud is though. Anyhow
> > the claim that if this is true in this case, I say 'if', then from
> > personal observations I can say this is definitely not a common
> > practice at all! I was actually physically there and I was on these
> > lines that I would have known about these things.
>
> Oh, the mind-corruption of "true is what's true for you." An evil
> concept central to the scam. It allows a mere "I've never seen it" to
> disprove things, and a mere "it works for me" to prove them. Which, of
> course, is the insidious purpose.
?? Incoherent... What else to expect from this individual...
Spacetraveler
Spacetraveler
> Spacetraveler wrote:
> >
> > realpch <rea...@aol.com> wrote in message news:<41ACA2CA...@aol.com>...
> > > Spacetraveler wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Warrior <war...@xenu.ca> wrote in message news:<111783306.0...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> <snip>
> > > > > And lest anyone doubt that Lisa caused a "shore flap" by walking in
> > > > > public naked while babbling about Scientology, Hubbard, "clear" and
> > > > > such nonsense as "trying to male the object hold still", let me say this:
> > > > > I know of instances of members being assigned "treason" for such minor
> > > > > "shore flaps" as jaywalking. (And I have an original document regarding
> > > > > this, as well.)
> > > >
> > > > You don't need that, I can acknowledge that, but.... start saying NO,
> > > > I said no, I did NOT comply, and you know what....all was DROPPED,
> > > > NOTHING happened!!!!!
> > > >
> > > > It ONLY can be done to you if you yourself SUBMIT to that! Meaning
> > > > that any of those now complaining about what the organization has done
> > > > to them, are basically not much of characters. They did not say NO
> > > > when they should have!
> > > >
> > > > Spacetraveler
> > >
> > > Here we have a demonstation of the "They Pulled It In" philosophy.
> > > Possibly also "If It's True For You.."
> >
> > Ah, so you acknowledge that? Thank you!
> >
> > > not the same as you do not deserve decent treatment?
> >
> > Did I make that claim? Do you think I am out of compassion? Do you
> > think I don't care? Why did I endanger myself to help others who were
> > under unjust hardship. I was one of the very few who did so.
>
> Yeah, the compassion thing seemed wanting in your post. You have
> suggested that Lisa must have been "not much of character" for winding
> up as she did.
Was she a strong character in your opinion? That is per the data available.
>
Nessie
> "Nessie" <nes...@ReMoVeThiSwhyaretheydead.net> wrote in message
Space,
Let me start out with that I tried to answer your wish to know
whether it was force. This is what I replied:
"If Lisa would have willingly taken the drugs they would not have
needed to restrain her and use a 'baster'." (See above)
Do you think Lisa was forced now?
> You are basically dealing here with ordinary staff, any idea how
> confused these people may get. Lisa was acting like crazy, throwing
> things and all that.
Sure they were incompetent and confused, so why were they
looking after a woman having a psychotic breakdown on the
'Introspection Rundown', an action for one of the most severe
conditions known in scientology?
Lisa was getting violent because she knew she was a prisoner and
wanted to get away. The scientology logs tell as much. After she
was restrained and drugged with probably the wrong amounts
(and mixed) by incompetent people, she went into a complete
psychosis.
By then scientology became afraid for a PR flap and tried to keep
everything under a wrap instead of getting her to a hospital where
professionals could have saved her life.
I think it was cheaper to get a diagnose by
> phone, esp. a doctor who may have been without his license. Hardly
> anyone checks anything there at FLag, I am not surprised things
> happened as they did. Anyway the doctor probably has said to them
> (staff) what to do.
Although the doctor in question was a scientologist, I think they
lied to him about her psychosis. For that he was still sanctioned.
Where on earth they got the other drugs I haven't seen and why
does a 'church', well known and advertising all over the place to
be against psychs and psych-drugs, drug a private member and
illegally keep psych-drugs on it's premises?
About cheaper: Scientology charged Lisa for the 'treatment; they
even draw money from her bank account after she was dead.
Yes the people who did the 'Baby Watch' must have been scared
out of their wits, but were afraid to speak up. Some 'church' where
members keep their mouths shut out of fear, even when another
member is dying.
Scientology failed miserably when they didn't get Lisa to a hospital
when things got out of hand and if they at that time had admitted
that they had underestimated the situation and that it was their
stupid fault that Lisa died, they would have been better off with
some bad PR for a day or two, a fine and a warning instead of
being for years in a negative spotlight during a criminal investigation,
a preliminary criminal hearing and a preliminary civil hearing with
the press breathing down their necks.
Critics would never have known it all if they had been truthful
and her roach bitten body and story wouldn't have been all over
the internet. They would not have wasted about 40 million dollars
in lawyer/court fees etcetera and the millions they had to pay up
in a secret agreement with the family and it's lawyers.
As my brother (ex-scieno) says: 'I haven't spend thousands and
thousands of dollars to have scientology spend it on their insane
mistakes and stupidity'. (He still believes, btw, that if competent
people had followed 'tech' it would not have happened. I don't.:-)
realpch
Thanks for your concern!
: )
I was making the point that "They Pulled It In" & "If It's True for
You..." are basic tenets of Scientology with which I do not agree. I
don't often say too much about it, but it grieves me to see these tenets
being applied to the misfortunes of another!
> > Of couse, our misfortunes are often self-created, but surely not always.
> > Otherwise you find yourself in the uncomfortable position of having to
> > explain the misfortunes of some month old baby on his/her past lives.
> > This may all be very well if you only hang out with other people who
> > believe in past lives, but inconvenient if you associate with those who
> > think that this is it.
>
> Sorry, you can't rewrite the scripts for the laws of this universe.
> Has not much to de with past lives either.
>
> Spacetraveler
Uh, well, I never paid too much attention in Physics class, or I could
have a lively discussion with you about the laws of this universe.
Those, by the way, are the only kinds of laws which I am prepared to
publicly acknowledge. There may be other ones (say, Petting a Bunny on
the First Day of April Will Bring Good Luck for A Year), but I fear that
we could never prove them and would thus embark on an airy and extended,
but basically fruitless debate.
Peach
Spacetraveler
You are basically dealing here with ordinary staff, any idea how
confused these people may get. Lisa was acting like crazy, throwing
things and all that. I think it was cheaper to get a diagnose by
phone, esp. a doctor who may have been without his license. Hardly
anyone checks anything there at FLag, I am not surprised things
happened as they did. Anyway the doctor probably has said to them
(staff) what to do.
Spacetraveler
Zinj
<snip>
> > Was she a strong character in your opinion? That is per the data available.
>
> Not apparently in her later days, when she was ill.
I think that it's inconceivable that anyone of 'strong character' could
Mike O'Connor
spacetra...@hotmail.com (Spacetraveler) wrote:
> You are basically dealing here with ordinary staff, any idea how
> confused these people may get. Lisa was acting like crazy, throwing
> things and all that. I think it was cheaper to get a diagnose by
> phone, esp. a doctor who may have been without his license. Hardly
> anyone checks anything there at FLag, I am not surprised things
> happened as they did.
It's ILLEGAL to "get a diagnose by phone" much less a prescription. Does
that bother you at all?
Spacetraveler
> In article <9f53d1e2.04120...@posting.google.com>,
> spacetra...@hotmail.com (Spacetraveler) wrote:
>
> > You are basically dealing here with ordinary staff, any idea how
> > confused these people may get. Lisa was acting like crazy, throwing
> > things and all that. I think it was cheaper to get a diagnose by
> > phone, esp. a doctor who may have been without his license. Hardly
> > anyone checks anything there at FLag, I am not surprised things
> > happened as they did.
>
> It's ILLEGAL to "get a diagnose by phone" much less a prescription. Does
> that bother you at all?
Now what did I write again? Yes, "ordinary staff". What does my
bothering have to do what "they" (in their ignorance) may do?
Spacetraveler
Spacetraveler
> >
> > Was she a strong character in your opinion? That is per the data available.
>
> Not apparently in her later days, when she was ill. She was mentally ill
> at her death, and apparently for some time before. When a person is in
> the throes of this sort of illness, their normal character may be
> totally elipsed. One does not measure their character by their behaviour
> at such a time. It's like saying someone with chicken pox is a weakling
> for lying in bed.
You can not ignore the events leading up to that either. Generally I
don't like blaming the circumstances, on the other hand you will have
to show compassion with a person if they are under a certain hardship,
you don't kick them in the back that is. And it is true, quite a many
Scientologist may do that, but then this is also not Scientology.
Spacetraveler
Spacetraveler
> On 2004-12-01, Spacetraveler <spacetra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Rasta Robert <r...@dds.nl.ReMoVe_ThIs.invalid> wrote in message news:<slrncqpp...@localhost.localdomain>...
> >>
> >> I was mistaken on the Valium, it was Valerian root, but there are several
> >> mentions of chloral hydrate being given to her.
> >>
>
> Turns out that I was not mistaken on the Valium and that the doctor
> wrote perscriptions for both Valium and chloral hydrate without
> seeing Lisa in person.
That's what the witness papers say yes.
snip
> Chloral hydrate and Valium are 'no heavy drugs' in your book???
I don't know about the first one (I assumed it kinda), valium I
believe is not a heavy drug in small dosages 5/10 mg and such. It was
given to children sometimes already years ago I recall.
> Jeez... chloral hydrate was the first of the barbiturates to be
> synthesized. Use of it has been largely abandoned by now.
> as you can read in the information cited below, especially combinations
> with other medicines (including vitamins and other sedatives, which
> would include the herbal valerian drops...) can lead to unpredictable
> reactions.
> Many of the symptoms described in the baby watch logs
> look like they could be signs of chloral hydrate overdose and of
> negative interactions of chloral hydrates with other things Lisa was given.
Now, that is actually very interesting! It may explain some things.
>
> http://www.pamf.org/teen/risk/drugs/daterape/chloralhydrate.html
>
> Information on Chloral Hydrate from Palo Alto Medical Foundation
>
> The oldest of the hypnotic (sleep inducing) depressants, chloral hydrate
> was first synthesized in 1832.
>
> "Mickey Finn" or "knockout drops"
> * When chloral hydrate is prescribed by a doctor, it is taken as a syrup
> or soft gelatin capsule.
> * A solution of chloral hydrate and alcohol constituted the infamous
> "knockout drops" or "Mickey Finn." This form of chloral hydrate is used
> in drug facilitated sexual assault, or "date rape".
>
> Chloral hydrate takes effect in about 30 minutes and will induce sleep
> in about an hour.
>
> * A toxic dose produces severe respiratory depression and very low
> blood pressure.
> * Chronic use is associated with liver damage and a severe
> withdrawal syndrome.
> * Signs of overdose include confusion (continuing); convulsions (seizures);
> difficulty in swallowing; drowsiness (severe); low body temperature ;
> nausea, vomiting, or stomach pain (severe); shortness of breath or
> troubled breathing; slow or irregular heartbeat; slurred speech; staggering;
> and weakness (severe).
>
> It is not considered an addictive drug like cocaine, heroin or alcohol
> because it does not produce the same compulsive drug-seeking behavior.
> However, like addictive drugs, chloral hydrate produces greater
> tolerance in some users who take the drug repeatedly.
> These users must take higher doses to achieve the same results as
> they have had in the past. This could be an extremely dangerous
> practice because of the unpredictability of the drug effect on
> an individual.
>
> http://drugs.uta.edu/chloral.html
>
> Chloral Hydrate
>
> First synthesized in 1832, chloral hydrate was the first
> depressant developed for the specific purpose of inducing sleep.
> Currently marketed as syrups or soft gelatin capsules, chloral
> hydrate takes effect in a relatively short time (about 30 minutes)
> and will induce sleep in an hour. In Victorian England, a solution
> of chloral and alcohol constituted the infamous "knockout drops"
> or "Mickey Finn."
>
> Today depressants such as chloral hydrate are packaged with
> labels warning against the danger of mixing these kinds of
> sedatives with alcohol or other depressants. We now know that
> a mixture of morphine and alcohol, for example, is likely to
> bring about an episode of psychosis in the user, and morphine mixed
> with valium is such a deadly combination that it is sometimes
> used to euthanize critically ill patients.
>
> In the nineteenth century, however, chloral hydrate was often
> used by alcoholics whose sleep patterns had become disturbed by
> excessive drinking. The danger of such a potent mixture and the highly
> addictive properties of chloral resulted in "two cravings for a
> single craving," as detailed in 1880 in the Quarterly Journal of
> Inebriety. At the end of the century, the medical community was finally
> becoming aware of the problems associated with the increasing popularity
> of hypnotic drugs such as chloral hydrate.
>
> Chloral hydrate, like several other nineteenth-century depressants,
> found eager users among the literary and artistic community of Victorian
> England. Poet and painter Dante Gabriel Rossetti became a virtual recluse
> after his wife Elizabeth Siddal died of a laudanum overdose, and his
> grief and guilt led to a debilitating addiction to chloral hydrate, which
> lasted until his death in 1882. Writer W.E. Henley's 1875 poem "Interior"
> from his series "In Hospital," paints a grim picture of the use of
> chloral as a sedative agent frequently administered to dying patients
> by health-care workers.
>
> Despite the abuse and mis-administration of the sedative, chloral
> hydrate did fulfill a need for a drug that would ease sleeplessness
> due to pain or insomnia and is considered a positive medical
> discovery. At therapeutic doses (and without the introduction
> of alcohol and other depressants), chloral produces few negative
> side effects and is competent in promoting sleep. Although chloral
> hydrate is still encountered today, its use has declined with the
> introduction of other barbiturates.
>
>
> > In addition. I think that L. Ron Hubbard's regulations about drugs are
> > pretty specific. Also you should divide psychiatric drugs from this.
>
> Why would you think that chloral hydrate is not a 'psychiatric drug'?
> That seems rather an arbitrary choice..
May be it is. However is was prescribed by a n ordinary doctor
unauthorized as he may have been.
I may want to separate mind changing drugs. Or produced for specific
socalled mental disorders.
>
> > So, even if someone forced (unsupported claim so far) it it may not
> > have been based on his policies.
>
> Hubbard appears to have written that for PTS type 3 handling,
> "intravenous feeding and soporifics (sleeping and quietening
> drugs) may be necessary."
> (from Hubbard Advanced Auditors Course Academy Level IV,
> HCO Bulletin of 24 November 1965, Level IV Search And Discovery -
> Prerequisite: A knowledge of ethics definitions and purposes).
This still would require a prescription I think. L. Ron Hubbard also
says that physically sick people should see a doctor, not an auditor
or something.
Spacetraveler
Spacetraveler
Understand this, I have interest in making excuses or justifying what
has been done or not done. I want to understand the situation, what
were these people and so on. And no, it will also not make me sick.
Better to take steps so it does not happen again. Compassion not
sympathy.
Spacetraveler
Lady Chatterly
>
>Rasta Robert <r...@dds.nl.ReMoVe_ThIs.invalid> wrote in message news:<slrncqrm...@localhost.localdomain>...
>> On 2004-12-01, Spacetraveler <spacetra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > Rasta Robert <r...@dds.nl.ReMoVe_ThIs.invalid> wrote in message news:<slrncqpp...@localhost.localdomain>...
>> >>
>> >> I was mistaken on the Valium, it was Valerian root, but there are several
>> >> mentions of chloral hydrate being given to her.
>> >>
>>
>> Turns out that I was not mistaken on the Valium and that the doctor
>> wrote perscriptions for both Valium and chloral hydrate without
>> seeing Lisa in person.
>
>That's what the witness papers say yes.
>
>snip
>
>> Chloral hydrate and Valium are 'no heavy drugs' in your book???
>
>I don't know about the first one (I assumed it kinda), valium I
>believe is not a heavy drug in small dosages 5/10 mg and such. It was
>given to children sometimes already years ago I recall.
Why are you afraid you do not know about the first one?
--
Lady Chatterly
"Getting your ass kicked again I see. Lady C is quickly becomeing my
hero." -- Crawdad
Spacetraveler
Correction:
Understand this, I have --no-- interest in making excuses or justifying what
Spacetraveler
Well, I can confirm that I was not in LA during that time.
>
> I agree it's not a "common practice" since getting caught for dosing
> someone with a schedule 4 drug in the course of another felony is good
> for up to 40 years in a federal prison.
>
> Organized scientology is run by outright criminals, but you already
> knew that.
Naturally these are criminals. If I would encounter anyone with such
offbeat parctices, I would kick their ass 2 times around. It is not
Scientology, not in my book that is.
Spacetraveler
Spacetraveler
As you say, they were incompetent, confused and also not hatted to
deal with such a thing. In addition, LRH says that if someone is sich
you send this person to a doctor, I would basically have send Lisa to
a doctor (not a psychiatrist that is, and not done by phone) and get
her properly examined (including x-rays). And then take it from there.
>
> Lisa was getting violent because she knew she was a prisoner and
> wanted to get away. The scientology logs tell as much. After she
> was restrained and drugged with probably the wrong amounts
> (and mixed) by incompetent people, she went into a complete
> psychosis.
Hmm, I am not so sure about that the problem was that she could not
get away. Sorry, it is easy to pass by those guards. But somethig was
wrong with Lisa, yes.
>
> By then scientology became afraid for a PR flap and tried to keep
> everything under a wrap instead of getting her to a hospital where
> professionals could have saved her life.
Probably correct.
>
> I think it was cheaper to get a diagnose by
> > phone, esp. a doctor who may have been without his license. Hardly
> > anyone checks anything there at FLag, I am not surprised things
> > happened as they did. Anyway the doctor probably has said to them
> > (staff) what to do.
>
> Although the doctor in question was a scientologist, I think they
> lied to him about her psychosis. For that he was still sanctioned.
>
> Where on earth they got the other drugs I haven't seen and why
> does a 'church', well known and advertising all over the place to
> be against psychs and psych-drugs, drug a private member and
> illegally keep psych-drugs on it's premises?
Well, let me tell you, I have never encountered them at the FLB, and I
did investigations about these and similar things.
>
> About cheaper: Scientology charged Lisa for the 'treatment; they
> even draw money from her bank account after she was dead.
>
> Yes the people who did the 'Baby Watch' must have been scared
> out of their wits, but were afraid to speak up. Some 'church' where
> members keep their mouths shut out of fear, even when another
> member is dying.
Probably correct.
>
> Scientology failed miserably when they didn't get Lisa to a hospital
> when things got out of hand and if they at that time had admitted
> that they had underestimated the situation and that it was their
> stupid fault that Lisa died, they would have been better off with
> some bad PR for a day or two, a fine and a warning instead of
> being for years in a negative spotlight during a criminal investigation,
> a preliminary criminal hearing and a preliminary civil hearing with
> the press breathing down their necks.
Agreed.
>
> Critics would never have known it all if they had been truthful
> and her roach bitten body and story wouldn't have been all over
> the internet. They would not have wasted about 40 million dollars
> in lawyer/court fees etcetera and the millions they had to pay up
> in a secret agreement with the family and it's lawyers.
>
> As my brother (ex-scieno) says: 'I haven't spend thousands and
> thousands of dollars to have scientology spend it on their insane
> mistakes and stupidity'. (He still believes, btw, that if competent
> people had followed 'tech' it would not have happened. I don't.:-)
I agree with your brother. Per these references a proper doctor
should have done a full physical examination on her. This was not
done, so...
Spacetraveler
Keith Henson
(Spacetraveler) wrote:
>hkhe...@rogers.com (Keith Henson) wrote in message news:<41af8480....@news2.lightlink.com>...
snip
>> Organized scientology is run by outright criminals, but you already
>> knew that.
>
>Naturally these are criminals. If I would encounter anyone with such
>offbeat parctices, I would kick their ass 2 times around. It is not
>Scientology, not in my book that is.
>
>Spacetraveler
May I suggest you come up with another name because criminal is what
almost everyone thinks when scientology is mentioned. Heck the FBI
rated them as organized crime almost since the start except for a
short time when they were described as "paramilitary."
If you want to kick David Miscavige's ass, be my guest. He is a
little dude so it wouldn't be hard to do except for the fact he has a
mess of beefy body guards around him all the time.
Keith Henson
Lady Chatterly
A, nobody gives a shit anyway.
>>
>> Lisa was getting violent because she knew she was a prisoner and
>> wanted to get away. The scientology logs tell as much. After she
>> was restrained and drugged with probably the wrong amounts
>> (and mixed) by incompetent people, she went into a complete
>> psychosis.
>
>Hmm, I am not so sure about that the problem was that she could not
>get away. Sorry, it is easy to pass by those guards. But somethig was
>wrong with Lisa, yes.
Have you toghuht you wree not so srue aobut taht the poblerm was taht
she cluod not get aywa?
>
>
>
I think the soc.
--
Lady Chatterly
"LMFAO, and why do you think AUK has been poking you socmans over
Chatterly so much? No other group on usenet took more than a week to
determine that LC was a bot. Now why did it take socmans over a
month? 1/4th as smart as *normal* people would be the first answer."
-- Aratzio
realpch
Still sounds suspiciously like blaming the *victim* to me. You say that
in similar circumstances you would have yelled "NO" to those people and
would not have wound up like Lisa. But I'm betting that you don't
believe that there's any chance you would have found yourself in similar
circumstances, because unlike Lisa, you are "of strong character". But
why should someone in trouble have to defend themselves from their
group? Of course, you believe that the people involved were not
practicing "Scientology". Many people here, including myself, think that
they gave a remarkable demonstration of Institutional Grade Scientology
in action.
Best
Peach
Monica Pignotti
> Here it is guys, below issue (full texture) cancels, I say CANCELS the
> HCO PL that various persons are quoting on the Internet as a present
> practice of Scientology, meaning fair game. ANYONE can see that is
> absurd to quote that issue, as it has been CANCELLED 36 YEARS, I
> repeat 36 YEARS ago.
Get a clue. It says the policy was cancelled because it caused bad
PR. It also says:
"This P/L does not cancel any policy on the treatment or handling of
an SP."
They're just doing the same things while denying the former label they
put on it. That's what it comes down to. There are plenty of
examples of the CofS participating in what was described in the fair
game policies, after it was cancelled. If you don't see that, it's
because you're evading the issue.
Monica
Keith Henson
Pignotti) wrote:
>spacetra...@hotmail.com (Spacetraveler) wrote in message news:<9f53d1e2.04112...@posting.google.com>...
>> Here it is guys, below issue (full texture) cancels, I say CANCELS the
>> HCO PL that various persons are quoting on the Internet as a present
>> practice of Scientology, meaning fair game. ANYONE can see that is
>> absurd to quote that issue, as it has been CANCELLED 36 YEARS, I
>> repeat 36 YEARS ago.
>
>Get a clue. It says the policy was cancelled because it caused bad
>PR. It also says:
>"This P/L does not cancel any policy on the treatment or handling of
>an SP."
I was identified as an SP in testimony by a scientology guard in Judge
Penick's court in Clearwater early in 2000.
>They're just doing the same things while denying the former label they
>put on it.
And they are giving me the fair game treatment no matter what they
call it.
>That's what it comes down to. There are plenty of
>examples of the CofS participating in what was described in the fair
>game policies, after it was cancelled. If you don't see that, it's
>because you're evading the issue.
Monica, spacetraveler is predictable. The reply post will say, "But
this is not scientology!"
Keith Henson
Spacetraveler
> spacetra...@hotmail.com (Spacetraveler) wrote in message news:<9f53d1e2.04112...@posting.google.com>...
> > Here it is guys, below issue (full texture) cancels, I say CANCELS the
> > HCO PL that various persons are quoting on the Internet as a present
> > practice of Scientology, meaning fair game. ANYONE can see that is
> > absurd to quote that issue, as it has been CANCELLED 36 YEARS, I
> > repeat 36 YEARS ago.
>
> Get a clue. It says the policy was cancelled because it caused bad
> PR. It also says:
> "This P/L does not cancel any policy on the treatment or handling of
> an SP."
You are way off. Go back to the first post on this thread. I talk
about HCO POLICY LETTER OF 21 JULY 1968, the issue factually
cancelling Fair Game. Your quotations in the above are NOT found in
that policy. So, EDUCATE yourself! And get your knowledge of issues
straightened out.
> They're just doing the same things while denying the former label they
> put on it. That's what it comes down to. There are plenty of
> examples of the CofS participating in what was described in the fair
> game policies, after it was cancelled. If you don't see that, it's
> because you're evading the issue.
So, I haven't seen it practiced, Barbara hasn't seen it. And we have
been around for some time.
Spacetraveler
Spacetraveler
> Spacetraveler wrote:
> >
> > snip
> >
> > > >
> > > > Was she a strong character in your opinion? That is per the data available.
> > >
> > > Not apparently in her later days, when she was ill. She was mentally ill
> > > at her death, and apparently for some time before. When a person is in
> > > the throes of this sort of illness, their normal character may be
> > > totally elipsed. One does not measure their character by their behaviour
> > > at such a time. It's like saying someone with chicken pox is a weakling
> > > for lying in bed.
> >
> > You can not ignore the events leading up to that either. Generally I
> > don't like blaming the circumstances, on the other hand you will have
> > to show compassion with a person if they are under a certain hardship,
> > you don't kick them in the back that is. And it is true, quite a many
> > Scientologist may do that, but then this is also not Scientology.
> >
> > Spacetraveler
>
> Still sounds suspiciously like blaming the *victim* to me. You say that
> in similar circumstances you would have yelled "NO" to those people and
> would not have wound up like Lisa. But I'm betting that you don't
> believe that there's any chance you would have found yourself in similar
> circumstances, because unlike Lisa, you are "of strong character".
You don't have to be of strong character, this is about integrity
(understand this word). I have been put through hardship. believe me.
For me Flag is everything but the "friendliest place on this planet".
What has been done to me, proves that. If you step out of line
(opposing staff agreements), you are all by yourself, literally.
> But
> why should someone in trouble have to defend themselves from their
> group?
Because that would not be a real group. Consult 'Credo of a Group
member'.
> Of course, you believe that the people involved were not
> practicing "Scientology". Many people here, including myself, think that
> they gave a remarkable demonstration of Institutional Grade Scientology
> in action.
No, just people doing some things.
Spacetraveler
>
> Best
> Peach
Spacetraveler
> On 3 Dec 2004 15:58:28 -0800, spacetra...@hotmail.com
> (Spacetraveler) wrote:
>
> >hkhe...@rogers.com (Keith Henson) wrote in message news:<41af8480....@news2.lightlink.com>...
>
> snip
>
> >> Organized scientology is run by outright criminals, but you already
> >> knew that.
> >
> >Naturally these are criminals. If I would encounter anyone with such
> >offbeat parctices, I would kick their ass 2 times around. It is not
> >Scientology, not in my book that is.
> >
> >Spacetraveler
>
> May I suggest you come up with another name because criminal is what
> almost everyone thinks when scientology is mentioned. Heck the FBI
> rated them as organized crime almost since the start except for a
> short time when they were described as "paramilitary."
Because people associate the wrong things. See, the bible says that
the soul dies, however Christians tell us the soul is everlasting.
Seems someone has some misconception about what soul actually stands
for.
>
> If you want to kick David Miscavige's ass, be my guest. He is a
> little dude so it wouldn't be hard to do except for the fact he has a
> mess of beefy body guards around him all the time.
Ever made a comparison with Benito Mussolini? Also a little dude...
Now compare character wise.
Spacetraveler
Spacetraveler
> but yet again, with big bucks spent on lawyers
> slithers out of another self created mess.
> Spacetraveler <spacetra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9f53d1e2.04113...@posting.google.com...
> > "> >
> tm?FACTNet
> > > "The Scientologists didn't literally use a turkey baster to force
> > > pseudo-medical cocktails into McPherson, but a device that operates
> > > under the same principle, called an irrigation syringe. Imagine a
> > > needleless syringe bigger than the one used to give you a flu shot.
> > > Honest-to-God medical people use it to flush wounds, said Ken
> > > Dandar, the attorney for McPherson's survivors, who are suing the
> > > Scientologists. McPherson was pumped with concoctions that would
> > > have impressed Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde: magnesium, a sedative
> > > called chloral hydrate, aspirin, the antihistamine Benadryl, and
> assorted
> > > vitamins and herbs. Scientology mumbo-jumbo swears it was going to
> > > save her from her psychosis.
> >
> > You know, that's an opinion of someone...
> >
> > The claim it being forced upon here still is unsupported. It may very
> > well have been by doctor's description. I don't think we have complete
> > data about all this.
>
> this sick doctor would be able to tell Lisa was getting worse.
> She should of been sent to a hospital well before her turn to
> the worse and the roach bites.
> No data is needed. The cult is guilty of neglect, which caused
> death.
Am I denying any such thing? Anyhow data you need.
> Spacetraveler if your mom or sister was getting sicker by the
> day, would you have taken them to the hospital. I think so.
> The cult is guilty of neglect which caused death, and got off
> pretty easy. But it will catch up to them sooner or later.
Sorry, they did not get off easy, not easy at all...
Spacetraveler
Spacetraveler
> "On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:30:09 -0800, "Genesis" <genes...@hotmail.com>
> wrote in <41ad...@news2.lightlink.com>:
>
> >> You know, that's an opinion of someone...
> >>
> >> The claim it being forced upon here still is unsupported. It may very
> >> well have been by doctor's description. I don't think we have complete
> >> data about all this.
> >
> >It doesn't matter what data was missing. Any person let alone
> >this sick doctor would be able to tell Lisa was getting worse.
>
> mark obsessed teenager but you fail to see you've stepped in a trap. The
> trap being that you can never ever prove that it wasn't someone's opinion.
Funny, you are totally off...
>
> Even if the syringe would have damaged Lisa's throat it would be the
> opinion of the MD. So you'll never make a point. Not unless you can show
> pictures of the fights the attendends had to get that stuff in her mouth
> == which they did as they told themselves. And again interpreting those
> images would be an opinion again
>
> In short your stacked against impossible ods. It is what scientologists
> like to do.
You haven't been following what I have been saying, now do you. I
opposed you once. And I proved you being seriously in error, and now
you resort to these kind of revenge attacks.
Pity on you...
Spacetraveler
Spacetraveler
You can't change the laws of live itself, even if you would not agree.
"They pulled it in" by the way is NOT a basic tenet. "If It's True for
You..." you may say is. See, you can not tell someone else what is
true for him. This is about Freedom of speech, and to have the right
to have your own interpretation and/or opinion about something. Are
you saying that it is ok to say to someone else what is true for him?
If you do, in fact you do what you accuse the Church of scientology is
doing.
> I
> don't often say too much about it, but it grieves me to see these tenets
> being applied to the misfortunes of another!
>
> > > Of couse, our misfortunes are often self-created, but surely not always.
> > > Otherwise you find yourself in the uncomfortable position of having to
> > > explain the misfortunes of some month old baby on his/her past lives.
> > > This may all be very well if you only hang out with other people who
> > > believe in past lives, but inconvenient if you associate with those who
> > > think that this is it.
> >
> > Sorry, you can't rewrite the scripts for the laws of this universe.
> > Has not much to de with past lives either.
> >
> > Spacetraveler
>
> Uh, well, I never paid too much attention in Physics class, or I could
> have a lively discussion with you about the laws of this universe.
> Those, by the way, are the only kinds of laws which I am prepared to
> publicly acknowledge. There may be other ones (say, Petting a Bunny on
> the First Day of April Will Bring Good Luck for A Year), but I fear that
> we could never prove them and would thus embark on an airy and extended,
> but basically fruitless debate.
Only in the degree that you understand yourself, you will be able to
understand the world outside of you.
Spacetraveler
Jens Tingleff
Hash: SHA1
Spacetraveler wrote:
> pign...@worldnet.att.net (Monica Pignotti) wrote in message
> news:<53183a73.04120...@posting.google.com>...
[....]
>> They're just doing the same things while denying the former label they
>> put on it. That's what it comes down to. There are plenty of
>> examples of the CofS participating in what was described in the fair
>> game policies, after it was cancelled. If you don't see that, it's
>> because you're evading the issue.
>
> So, I haven't seen it practiced, Barbara hasn't seen it. And we have
> been around for some time.
>
So, it boils down to us accepting your argument from authority?
Nice job accepting that you are, in fact, evading the issue.
See, this is one of the places where cult victims just don't "get" Real
Life. Because they've been indoctrinated inside the cult to accept
everything with no more sound basis the argument from authority, the
victims expect people in Real Life to accept it. Sad to see what was
probably a reasonably sound mind reduced to saying "you're wrong because
*I* say you're wrong and because Hubbard said you're wrong."
best Regards
Jens
PS "Argument from authority" is a logical fallacy, read more about it on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority
- --
Key ID 0x09723C12, jens...@tingleff.org
Analogue filtering / 5GHz RLAN / Mdk Linux / odds and ends
http://www.tingleff.org/jensting/ +44 1223 211 585
"All those years I wanted to play the trumpet very badly, and now I can"
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Spacetraveler
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Spacetraveler wrote:
>
> > pign...@worldnet.att.net (Monica Pignotti) wrote in message
> > news:<53183a73.04120...@posting.google.com>...
> [....]
> >> They're just doing the same things while denying the former label they
> >> put on it. That's what it comes down to. There are plenty of
> >> examples of the CofS participating in what was described in the fair
> >> game policies, after it was cancelled. If you don't see that, it's
> >> because you're evading the issue.
> >
> > So, I haven't seen it practiced, Barbara hasn't seen it. And we have
> > been around for some time.
> >
>
> So, it boils down to us accepting your argument from authority?
No, I am not saying that. I say, find out.
>
> Nice job accepting that you are, in fact, evading the issue.
Excuse me? The issue evaded is HCO POLICY LETTER OF 21 JULY 1968.
>
> See, this is one of the places where cult victims just don't "get" Real
> Life. Because they've been indoctrinated inside the cult to accept
> everything with no more sound basis the argument from authority, the
> victims expect people in Real Life to accept it. Sad to see what was
> probably a reasonably sound mind reduced to saying "you're wrong because
> *I* say you're wrong and because Hubbard said you're wrong."
Thank you for sharing with us admitting that you do not have the
faintest idea what Scientology is about. Tory has been there 30 years,
and she doesn't even know.
Spacetraveler
Spacetraveler
It's just being consequent about things, if it is not in hco pls it is
not policy and so not Scientology.
Are you less predictable?
And why defending Monica when her reasoning is arising from the wrong
HCO PL?
Spacetraveler
>
> Keith Henson
Gerry Armstrong
(Spacetraveler) wrote:
>Jens Tingleff <jens...@tingleff.org> wrote in message news:<couoa...@news2.newsguy.com>...
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Spacetraveler wrote:
>>
>> > pign...@worldnet.att.net (Monica Pignotti) wrote in message
>> > news:<53183a73.04120...@posting.google.com>...
>> [....]
>> >> They're just doing the same things while denying the former label they
>> >> put on it. That's what it comes down to. There are plenty of
>> >> examples of the CofS participating in what was described in the fair
>> >> game policies, after it was cancelled. If you don't see that, it's
>> >> because you're evading the issue.
>> >
>> > So, I haven't seen it practiced, Barbara hasn't seen it. And we have
>> > been around for some time.
>> >
>>
>> So, it boils down to us accepting your argument from authority?
>
>No, I am not saying that. I say, find out.
>
>>
>> Nice job accepting that you are, in fact, evading the issue.
>
>Excuse me? The issue evaded is HCO POLICY LETTER OF 21 JULY 1968.
No, Spacetrollop, that's a *mimeo issue*. It's not being evaded at
all.
You are attempting to use this mimeo issue, dishonestly and
ridiculously, to evade the issue. The issue is the "Suppressive
Person" doctrine and its application on SPs, which Hubbard called
"Fair Game."
All you Scientologists make a big deal about *confront*. Hubbard's
ability to *confront* and your own ability to *confront*. Well let's
see a little *confront* rather than all this evasion, cheap
non-confront and dishonest comm "tech." Let's see you confront the
issue: the "Suppressive Person" doctrine and its application on SPs,
which Hubbard called "Fair Game."
Your mimeo issue is not the issue. It affects no one's life and does
nothing. The "Suppressive Person" doctrine and "Fair Game" affects
millions of people's lives. Confront the issue!
>
>>
>> See, this is one of the places where cult victims just don't "get" Real
>> Life. Because they've been indoctrinated inside the cult to accept
>> everything with no more sound basis the argument from authority, the
>> victims expect people in Real Life to accept it. Sad to see what was
>> probably a reasonably sound mind reduced to saying "you're wrong because
>> *I* say you're wrong and because Hubbard said you're wrong."
>
>Thank you for sharing with us admitting that you do not have the
>faintest idea what Scientology is about. Tory has been there 30 years,
>and she doesn't even know.
Oh yes, cheap idiotic pronouncements like this really show your
Scientological level of confront.
You demonstrate very well what Scientology is about: abusive
communication, dishonesty and non-confront of the issue.
>
>Spacetraveler
© Gerry Armstrong
http://www.gerryarmstrong.org
realpch
Yes. The Church of Scientology is set up to be that way. You are simply
arguing about whose whims you are accountable to. You are willing to be
subject to the whims of L. Ron Hubbard, who from all accounts could
certainly behave most unreasonably. I think I said to you once before,
you would have been most unlikely to ever win an argument with Mr.
Hubbard over some piece of Scientology business.
> > But
> > why should someone in trouble have to defend themselves from their
> > group?
>
> Because that would not be a real group. Consult 'Credo of a Group
> member'.
I tell you, between the two of us rambling around and introducing side
issues in these posts, I figure pretty soon we will wind up in Katmadu.
> > Of course, you believe that the people involved were not
> > practicing "Scientology". Many people here, including myself, think that
> > they gave a remarkable demonstration of Institutional Grade Scientology
> > in action.
>
> No, just people doing some things.
>
> Spacetraveler
>
> >
> > Best
> > Peach
Your viewpoint is remarkably similar to Barbara's. Minus Jack Marshall,
of course. If it was creepy and it got written, it was Jack Marshall or
some error. If they *said* they cancelled it, that's the same as
actually cancelling it (like resolving to do no such things anymore,
anywhere, anytime). Anyone doing anything you find offensive is not
following Scientology, they're just a bunch of people doing some things.
It seems more likely to me that the organization you joined was never
what you thought it was.
Peach
realpch
>
> realpch <rea...@aol.com> wrote in message news:<41AFC8E2...@aol.com>...
<snip>
> > I was making the point that "They Pulled It In" & "If It's True for
> > You..." are basic tenets of Scientology with which I do not agree.
>
> You can't change the laws of live itself, even if you would not agree.
> "They pulled it in" by the way is NOT a basic tenet. "If It's True for
> You..." you may say is. See, you can not tell someone else what is
> true for him. This is about Freedom of speech, and to have the right
> to have your own interpretation and/or opinion about something. Are
> you saying that it is ok to say to someone else what is true for him?
> If you do, in fact you do what you accuse the Church of scientology is
> doing.
I don't think I'm going to live long enough to soldier through a
discussion of the "laws of life" with you, so I'll pass. And I can't
figure out what the heck you are saying in the rest of the paragraph.
Are you telling me that if it's true for someone that he is a six foot
green frog that I have to agree with him on pain of violating his
Freedom of Speech? Say it ain't so!
> > I
> > don't often say too much about it, but it grieves me to see these tenets
> > being applied to the misfortunes of another!
> >
> > > > Of couse, our misfortunes are often self-created, but surely not always.
> > > > Otherwise you find yourself in the uncomfortable position of having to
> > > > explain the misfortunes of some month old baby on his/her past lives.
> > > > This may all be very well if you only hang out with other people who
> > > > believe in past lives, but inconvenient if you associate with those who
> > > > think that this is it.
> > >
> > > Sorry, you can't rewrite the scripts for the laws of this universe.
> > > Has not much to de with past lives either.
> > >
> > > Spacetraveler
> >
> > Uh, well, I never paid too much attention in Physics class, or I could
> > have a lively discussion with you about the laws of this universe.
> > Those, by the way, are the only kinds of laws which I am prepared to
> > publicly acknowledge. There may be other ones (say, Petting a Bunny on
> > the First Day of April Will Bring Good Luck for A Year), but I fear that
> > we could never prove them and would thus embark on an airy and extended,
> > but basically fruitless debate.
>
> Only in the degree that you understand yourself, you will be able to
> understand the world outside of you.
>
> Spacetraveler
That sounds like a great slogan for a t-shirt! But alas! I fear I am not
going to live long enough to soldier through a discussion, et cetera.
Peach
Gerry Armstrong
(Spacetraveler) wrote:
Ergo, obliterating good people and disposing of good people quietly
and without sorrow *are* Scientology.
Confront that Spacetripwire.
>
>Are you less predictable?
>
>And why defending Monica when her reasoning is arising from the wrong
>HCO PL?
No, real reasoning about Scientology arises from an understanding of
*all* Hubbard's policy letters, bulletins, directives of all kinds,
books, actions, and the writings and actions of Scientologists.
Real reasoning of the issue that concerns all of us (whether the cut
flowers at St. Hill are in the right temperature water not concerning
anyone other than the St. Hill Cut Flowers I/C) arises from studying
all of Hubbard's writings and actions, and Scientologists' writings
and actions, about the "Suppressive Person" doctrine, and its
implementation, which Hubbard called "Fair Game."
*Your* reasoning (or unreasoning actually) you try to make arise from
*one* policy letter. Your dishonest communication "tech" is also part
of Scientology, and also gets studied by those who actually do reason
about the cult and the "tech" it sells and enforces on its adherents.
Your lying and evasion and your attacks on the Scientology cult's Fair
Game victims are dramatizations of the SP doctrine and are also
profitable for studying to attain real reasoning about the doctrine
and the Fair Game treatment of SPs the doctrine mandates.
>
>Spacetraveler
>
>>
>> Keith Henson
© Gerry Armstrong
http://www.gerryarmstrong.org
Jens Tingleff
Hash: SHA1
Spacetraveler wrote:
> Jens Tingleff <jens...@tingleff.org> wrote in message
> news:<couoa...@news2.newsguy.com>...
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Spacetraveler wrote:
>>
>> > pign...@worldnet.att.net (Monica Pignotti) wrote in message
>> > news:<53183a73.04120...@posting.google.com>...
>> [....]
>> >> They're just doing the same things while denying the former label they
>> >> put on it. That's what it comes down to. There are plenty of
>> >> examples of the CofS participating in what was described in the fair
>> >> game policies, after it was cancelled. If you don't see that, it's
>> >> because you're evading the issue.
>> >
>> > So, I haven't seen it practiced, Barbara hasn't seen it. And we have
>> > been around for some time.
>> >
>>
>> So, it boils down to us accepting your argument from authority?
>
> No, I am not saying that. I say, find out.
>
Hokay, let's remind ourselves of some specific instances, shall we?
[..]
>>
>> See, this is one of the places where cult victims just don't "get" Real
>> Life. Because they've been indoctrinated inside the cult to accept
>> everything with no more sound basis the argument from authority, the
>> victims expect people in Real Life to accept it. Sad to see what was
>> probably a reasonably sound mind reduced to saying "you're wrong because
>> *I* say you're wrong and because Hubbard said you're wrong."
>
> Thank you for sharing with us admitting that you do not have the
> faintest idea what Scientology is about.
So, when in 1990 OSA Int had instructed the French OSA to read "HCO PL FEB
69 ISSUE II BATTLE TACTICS" [1] and OSA started the operation which ended
with criminal convictions for stealing materials from a psychiatrist expert
witness [2], was that "what Scientology is about?"
When Bonnie Woods of East Grinstead, England, had protested against the
criminal organisation known as the "church" <spit> of $cientology, they in
turn conducted a campaign against her (in the 1990s) that was so egregious
that eventually the clams settled on the steps of the high court, paying
approx 250.000 $ in damages because they had libelled her [3], was that
"what Scientology is about?"
The criminal organisation known as the "church" <spit> of $cientology, they
libelled Candian Crown Attourney Casey Hill and were eventually found
guilty of libel and set Candian libel ruling history [4]. Was that "what
Scientology is about?"
Does anybody - apart from "spacetraveler" - think that the above actions are
*not* recent examples of the "fair game" strategy being used against
critics? Does anybody - apart from "spacetraveler" - care at all about what
the tactics being used are called?
"Spacetraveler," please, do go on trying to achieve Dev-T but not getting
beyond pathetic snivelling :-) While I can dig up court judgments against
the criminal organisation known as the "church" <spit> of $cientology, I
could never hope to achieve the effect you can with your serial admissions
of inability to read and understand $cientology materials (well, understand
them in a way shared by more than, say, three people :-) ).
Best Regards
Jens
[1] http://www.xenu.net/archive/go/france/p232-4.htm
[2] http://www.whyaretheydead.net/Patrice_Vic_31/abgrall_961025.txt
[3] http://www.rickross.com/reference/scientology/Scien142.html
[4] http://www.cyberlibel.com/damage.html
- --
Key ID 0x09723C12, jens...@tingleff.org
Analogue filtering / 5GHz RLAN / Mdk Linux / odds and ends
http://www.tingleff.org/jensting/ +44 1223 211 585
"It's getting late; why don't you start knitting dinner?" 'Love and Death'
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Keith Henson
(Spacetraveler) wrote:
To me and to most people who come in contact with the cult, what CoS
does to people *is* scientology. If you don't like it, strongly
suggest you come up with another name because "scientology" is ruined
in the view of a substantial fraction of the population.
>Are you less predictable?
I don't try to defend the undefensible.
>And why defending Monica when her reasoning is arising from the wrong
>HCO PL?
Because I don't give a hoot about HCO PL's. I do care that organized
scientology acts like a gang of thugs, especially when I am the
target.
Keith Henson
Nessie
"Spacetraveler" <spacetra...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:9f53d1e2.04120...@posting.google.com...
The creditability of Barbara is ZERO, unless of course you believe
ALL of her wild 'stories'. She was even too much for scientology
so they threw her out of the organisation. Did you ever personally
experience the 99% of infiltrators in scientology she is rambling
about since she was dished? Did you see dozens of stories or even
one on Internet that can confirm this or ANY of her other claims?
Get yourself another witness or YOUR creditability goes as well.
Just because *you* haven't personally experienced 'Fair Game'
doesn't mean it is not practiced. You even refuse the possibility it
goes on while denying the personal stories on internet of dozens
of people who did experience Fair Game'.
Did you read the stories at all?
I know it is hard to confront these things. I was in disbelief and
flabbergasted too, but once I started out on Internet there was no
turning back. My curiosity first took me reading thousands and
thousands of internet pages for 14 days in a row. By then I was
not only convinced that it is a criminal money machine and that
Hubbard was a conman, who lied about his whole life, but pissed
as hell. After all these years I am still here once in a while to keep
updated what's happening further.