How Scientology Works 196- The Dedicated Glare
Richard Ford
to cultivate it. You sometimes even see it in Amway distributors.
This is an interesting turnaround from his position in the early days
while writing Dianetics. In this book he talked of the 'too often
hypnotised stare' and saw it as evidence of the degraded state of man.
Who knows... maybe this observation has been 'corrected' in the latest
edition.
The simple answer is to say that LRH was right the first time and the
fixed stare is evidence of hypnotism, but let us look a little deeper
and consider how one gets that way.
I once had that stare. It frightened my non Scientology friends and I
was proud to do so. I hardly noticed that they began to avoid me and
my strange new behaviours. I am sure I was behaving strangely on many
levels.
This means I am able to tell you how the stare feels from the inside-
and it is not a pleasant sensation. The best I can do is describe it
as intensity plus deadness.
INTENSITY.
Hypnotism can be defined as the progressive narrowing of attention.
The will is focused like a laser beam and is aware of nothing but the
target at which it is aimed. It is easy to manipulate people when one
is in this state because ones TR's are automatically in place. I felt
superior to the 'wogs' (non Scientologists) who I met because I could
control them so very easily. Simply thrusting a leaflet at a 'wog'
with the force of intention could make them take it from me against
their own will.
First I would thrust it at them with a smile. I would notice a slight
hesitation or even a shake of the head but I would ignore this and
continue as before. Almost everyone would take the leaflet from me as
an automatic reflex despite not intending to do so.
I was beginning to learn the pleasure of overwhelming others with the
power of my will. For a few hours a day I could feel powerful even
though I was slowly starving to death.
There is really no difference between controlling people in this way
and running a TR routine.
Example A
"Do fish swim?"
"Errr...well do bears shit in the woods?"
"I will repeat the auditing question. Do fish swim?"
Example B
I thrust a leaflet at the public.
Public rejects leaflet.
I ignore this response and continue to hold the leaflet out.
Public takes leaflet.
You see the similarity? Both examples show the Scientologist
overcoming the will of another person by being more focused upon the
objective and blanking their communication.
Mastery of this technique makes one a master manipulator but carries a
terrible price.
DEADNESS.
I found that the better I became at manipulating others the more dead
to the world I became. Nothing was quite real to me and I had the
sensation I was watching the world through a pane of glass. I suffered
a peculiar dislocation by which I both knew and did not know that
Scientology was a crock of shit. I fantasied about being kidnapped and
forcefully deprogrammed because I lacked the strength to walk away.
I found this emotional deadness lead to a sort of physical deadness. I
had the peculiar sensation that my face were merely a piece of dead
meat stuck to the front of some other hidden face. Sometimes I would
cut myself shaving because this 'dead' face was physically numb- as
were the tips of my fingers.
I also became aware that I would obey orders automatically without
intending to do so. This was actually a pleasant discovery as I could
take a rest while my body followed the orders of other people on some
auto pilot mechanism.
I became a fanatic- and yet at the same time I knew that I were in the
grip of something evil that was draining me of all physical and mental
life.
I became both master and slave- able to control others but no longer
in control of my own body and mind.
A very strange sensation.
LaserClam
> This is an interesting turnaround from his position in the early days
> while writing Dianetics. In this book he talked of the 'too often
> hypnotised stare' and saw it as evidence of the degraded state of man.
> Who knows... maybe this observation has been 'corrected' in the latest
> edition.
>
> The simple answer is to say that LRH was right the first time and the
> fixed stare is evidence of hypnotism, but let us look a little deeper
> and consider how one gets that way.
>
> I once had that stare. It frightened my non Scientology friends and I
> was proud to do so. I hardly noticed that they began to avoid me and
> my strange new behaviours. I am sure I was behaving strangely on many
> levels.
So, a desire to be liked or admire
became a desire for attention?
Skipper
<5c315402-e97e-4fa6...@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
LaserClam <Lase...@aol.com> wrote:
Time to go clean that drool off your bathroom mirror from all the
babble practice - you just struck out.
Richard Ford
> In article
> <5c315402-e97e-4fa6-a385-d07b36f56...@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
>
> - Show quoted text -
Oh dear! A couple of clam trolls do not like my post! What shall I do?
Lermanet.com Exposing the CON for over 11 years!
I like your posts and feel they are valuable and help those who are
recovering from the scan dba $cientology. Unlike some other potty
posters, your posts make people think.
That is a good thing.
You might google "Stage Hypnotist Attack Method"
IMO that is what Hubbard sought by teaching "Tone 40 without
reservation"
Lermanet.com Exposing the CON for over 11 years!
Do MORE!
Watch the wheels fall off!
Richard Ford
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thank you. I had a 'cog' while writing this post that the whole Tone
40 thing is hypnotic. This is well hidden.
Bobb999
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"DEADNESS.
I found that the better I became at manipulating others the more dead
to the world I became. Nothing was quite real to me and I had the
sensation I was watching the world through a pane of glass. I suffered
a peculiar dislocation by which I both knew and did not know that
Scientology was a crock of shit. I fantasied about being kidnapped and
forcefully deprogrammed because I lacked the strength to walk away.
I found this emotional deadness lead to a sort of physical deadness. I
had the peculiar sensation that my face were merely a piece of dead
meat stuck to the front of some other hidden face. Sometimes I would
cut myself shaving because this 'dead' face was physically numb- as
were the tips of my fingers.
I also became aware that I would obey orders automatically without
intending to do so. This was actually a pleasant discovery as I could
take a rest while my body followed the orders of other people on some
auto pilot mechanism.
I became a fanatic- and yet at the same time I knew that I were in the
grip of something evil that was draining me of all physical and mental
life.
I became both master and slave- able to control others but no longer
in control of my own body and mind.
A very strange sensation. "
------------------------------------------
-Psychologists recognize the state of mind you describe. It's
typically referred to as a "dissociative state" where one feels kind
of split in two, where you feel somewhat disembodied. You feel like
you've become an observer of yourself, not quite in your body, removed
emotionally and seemingly physically too from your body, and slightly
removed from your own words and actions.Instead of feeling you are in
a situation and doing things, you watch yourself doing things from a
distance. Sometimes people who have committed homicides get found not-
guilty by reason of insanity because a court accepts evidence the
perpetrator was in such an extreme dissociative state that they had no
control over their own actions, and experienced the crime as if they
were a helpless observer watching someone else commit the crime!
Maverick psychiatrist R.D. Laing wrote a lot about the dissociative
state, 35+ years ago, in books such as "The Divided Self".
It doesn't argue well for Scientology's beneficial effects if the cult
helps provoke such unhealthy states of mind! I wonder if Hubbard's
teaching that you are a thetan, and that a thetan's consciousness is
located actually outside the body might in some cases help create a
dissociative state in some people? But I believe it would require more
that teaching alone in order to create that "deadness" state you
describe.
It believe would take a system that's emotionally traumatizing, or
lacking in emotional support and love, to provoke emotionally
unhealthy states of mind such as you describe.
Yet Scientology claims it makes people emotionally healthier! "Slappy"
Miscavige is a shining example of that!
Richard Ford
>
> - Show quoted text -
Actually many people do 'exteriorise' at the point in the bridge I am
describing. This is when a person literealy feels they are leaving
their body. It can seem very, very, real.
Fortunatley I have not experieced this since then so I suppose I am
basicaly healthy.
ho...@lightlink.com
>> helps provoke such unhealthy states of mind! I wonder if Hubbard's
>> teaching that you are a thetan, and that a thetan's consciousness is
>> located actually outside the body might in some cases help create a
>> dissociative state in some people? But I believe it would require more
>> that teaching alone in order to create that "deadness" state you
>> describe.
The view goes a lot farther than you are aware of, the view
is that the body and the entire physical universe of space and time
are a dream, they don't exist at all except as a co hallucination
between all dreamers.
Thus the thetan does not exist outside the body, because
there is no outside to exist in.
The 3-D dream is an apparency projected in the zero-D substrate of
consciousness.
>> It believe would take a system that's emotionally traumatizing, or
>> lacking in emotional support and love, to provoke emotionally
>> unhealthy states of mind such as you describe.
>> Yet Scientology claims it makes people emotionally healthier! "Slappy"
>> Miscavige is a shining example of that!- Hide quoted text -
Scientologists are in a state of war with society, they are a few
million years out of present time. The ugency of their mission is
magnified by the insanity of the past incident they are stuck in.
> Actually many people do 'exteriorise' at the point in the bridge I am
> describing. This is when a person literealy feels they are leaving
> their body. It can seem very, very, real.
It is real, put a number on a 3 by 5 card and tape it to
the back of your head. Next time you exteriorize in session
read the number.
> Fortunatley I have not experieced this since then so I suppose I am
> basicaly healthy.
Yes, basically healthy incipient carrion.
Good luck with the worms.
Homer
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Homer Wilson Smith The Paths of Lovers Art Matrix - Lightlink
(607) 277-0959 KC2ITF Cross Internet Access, Ithaca NY
ho...@lightlink.com In the Line of Duty http://www.lightlink.com
Richard Ford
This sounds more like a symptom of illness than an explanation for it.
Thanks anyway.
Bobb999
"The view goes a lot farther than you are aware of, the view
is that the body and the entire physical universe of space and time
are a dream, they don't exist at all except as a co hallucination
between all dreamers."
-I see. I recall though something I read as a teenager of a supposed
teaching of Scientology (perhaps inaccurate) that CoS taught that ones
center of consciousness was located not in the brain, but at a point
approx. 3 feet behind ones head! At the time I told this to my
friend,and we both thought it hilarious!
--" Actually many people do 'exteriorise' at the point in the bridge I
am
describing. This is when a person literealy feels they are leaving
their body. It can seem very, very, real.
It is real, put a number on a 3 by 5 card and tape it to
the back of your head. Next time you exteriorize in session
read the number. "
-What Scientology calls "exteriorizing" sounds similar to what others
refer to as OBEs (Out-of-Body-Experiences) or "astral projection"..
I'd view this a somewhat different phenomenon though than the typical
dissociative state, which is more along the lines of neurosis/mental
illness. I don't view OBEs as necessarily being unhealthy states of
consciousness, although it potentially can lead to problems in some
cases, apparently. It's a paranormal talent many people strive to
attain, not just in Scientology! Assuming some Scientology techniques
actually do work (as you suggest) to help some people learn this
trick, one certainly doesn't need Scientology training to learn it!
Many others have taught methods to learn how to experience OBEs, an
age-old paranormal talent dating back to the earliest spiritual
beliefs and practices of mankind : Shamanism. The ability to have OBEs
at will, to visit other locales on the physical plane, or explore
other realms, the famous "astral" (and other) planes, for instance, or
"the land of dead", etc,.is a typical ability claimed by Shamans. In
modern times, Robert Monroe of the Monroe Institute was prominent in
the filed of training people to learn to have OBEs at will.
But if an OBE-er starts having trouble feeling fully re-embodied, or
fully earth-bound after returning from an OBE journey, then maybe
he's developing some mental problems!
I've read historical material about The Hermetic Order of the Golden
Dawn, the magical group founded in England in the late 1800s. There's
evidence a number of magicians working in the Golden Dawn tradition
apparently became habituated to "astral journeys", but failed to
adequately stick to the cardinal rule of "keeping the planes separate"
- i.e. taking measures to prevent the astral impinging on normal,
everyday existence - as a result, a number of magicians unfortunately
ended up in mental asylums.
Assuming what you say is true that some Scientologists actually do
learn the trick of exteriorization or OBEs, I wonder if any or many of
them ever suffer a similar fate of losing their grip on reality, and
suffering mental breakdowns?
Richard Ford
>
> - Show quoted text -
Not one person in all of human history has had a VERIFIABLE OBE.
It 'feels' real but it is not possible to find anything not known.
ho...@lightlink.com
> learn the trick of exteriorization or OBEs, I wonder if any or many of
> them ever suffer a similar fate of losing their grip on reality, and
> suffering mental breakdowns?
It is not a trick, it results momentarily from running out a past
death which is a moment of enforced exteriorization. As the being
relives the death, not remember, RELIVES, he exteriorizes from the past
body and the present one and sometimes the whole universe of space and
time. Then he comes back in, usually a hard crash.
Exterior also happens momentarily on running CCH's, and any big win
in Dianetics.
Thus there needs to be run the Int-Ext rundown to clean up the
crash.
But truth is that exteriorization happens most often with running
the Assumption, the first moment of interiorzation in this life into the
body, and the many prior assumptions back to the first contact with
bodies.
Assumptions are very long messy incidents, the being goes in and
out of the body many times. The being often is there BEFORE conception,
and sometimes takes part in blanketing the parents to get them to have
sex which creates the baby.
Then once conception happens the being goes in and out many times,
sometimes fighting with other beings over the body, until he finally
goes in for keeps and goes to sleep as a thetan.
He stays asleep as a thetan until he runs out the assumption chain,
the way out is the way in.
ho...@lightlink.com
Amazing.
You know this for a fact?
Sorry sir, you are a true disbeliver, not a scientist of the truth
at all.
Plunk, I retract my offer to talk to you.
Homer
> It 'feels' real but it is not possible to find anything not known.
--
Richard Ford
The first person who can prove they have exteriorised (ie go somewhere
and see something) will win a million dollars from James Randi.
It has been tested for over a hunderd years now without a single
'real' OBE. This does not mean they are fraudulent- they seem very
real at the time. Of course there could be a real one somewhere in the
world- but it is unlikely.
Jommy Cross
<doorma...@googlemail.com> wrote in msg
<1825aed7-f2b1-402a...@e27g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>:<snip>
>> > Fortunatley I have not experieced this since then so I suppose I am
>> > basicaly healthy.
>>
>>
>> � � Good luck with the worms.
<snip>
>
>This sounds more like a symptom of illness than an explanation for it.
>Thanks anyway.
I believe Homer intimates you are thinking like a stupid meatball. From
Homer's perpective there are no intelligent meatballs.
Personally, I don't see the problem with being a meatball, even if the
world *is* as Homer sees it. Another cycle through the Implant Stations?
Rinse and repeat. I've apparently been doing that for the last 73 trillion
years, so why I'm worry?
Freexoners seem to reserve a special horror for meatballs, although it's
true some meatballs do point, laugh and ask difficult questions.
Still, regarding us as somewhere between flesh eating zombies and
houseplants seems somewhat extreme to me.
Incident zero: Ron trolled them
Ever yours in fandom,
Jommy Cross
---------------------------------------------------
This message brought to you by Radio Free Albemuth:
before you hallucinate
--------------------------------------------------
Eldon
> On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 01:57:13 -0800 (PST), Richard Ford
> <1825aed7-f2b1-402a-bcdd-7f650d9df...@e27g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>:
>
> >On 25 Nov, 06:25, ho...@lightlink.com wrote:
> <snip>
> >> > Fortunatley I have not experieced this since then so I suppose I am
> >> > basicaly healthy.
>
>
> <snip>
>
> >This sounds more like a symptom of illness than an explanation for it.
> >Thanks anyway.
>
> I believe Homer intimates you are thinking like a stupid meatball. From
> Homer's perpective there are no intelligent meatballs.
>
> Personally, I don't see the problem with being a meatball, even if the
> world *is* as Homer sees it. Another cycle through the Implant Stations?
> Rinse and repeat. I've apparently been doing that for the last 73 trillion
> years, so why I'm worry?
>
> Freexoners seem to reserve a special horror for meatballs, although it's
> true some meatballs do point, laugh and ask difficult questions.
>
> Still, regarding us as somewhere between flesh eating zombies and
> houseplants seems somewhat extreme to me.
How about just regarding you (and me and other SPs) as ignorant,
possessed pains in the ass? That's sort of how they rationalize their
failure to gain instant agreement that Scientology is where it's at
and the Only Way Out,
Now Jommy, how about taking over my self-appointed position as
invading gadfly on Marty Rathbun's blog? Huh? Maybe just for a month?
It may be thankless, but I think it will have some impact in the long
run.
Dennis L Erlich
>I believe Homer intimates you are thinking like a stupid meatball. From
>Homer's perpective there are no intelligent meatballs.
According to Elrong you can't think like a meatball. Because they
don't really think. You can only have meatball as your "beingness."
Ie, you consider yourself to be a piece of meat only. No seasoning.
No tenderizing. No cooking.
>Personally, I don't see the problem with being a meatball, even if the
>world *is* as Homer sees it. Another cycle through the Implant Stations?
>Rinse and repeat. I've apparently been doing that for the last 73 trillion
>years, so why I'm worry?
Homer and other scieno-thinking twistoids (and i say that with all due
respect, homie) have it all rong. R. Crumb had it right. Meatball,
in the spiritual sense, is not a noun. It's a verb.
Here's a man who's just been "meatballed."
http://www.informer.org/alright2.jpg
>Freexoners seem to reserve a special horror for meatballs, although it's
>true some meatballs do point, laugh and ask difficult questions.
It's more like a waking up and being able to ask difficult questions
of fools. And getting to point and laugh is an added health benefit.
>Still, regarding us as somewhere between flesh eating zombies and
>houseplants seems somewhat extreme to me.
Homie reserves the right to be more than a little extreme.
D
Slarty
> LRH valued dedicated glare in his followers.
I'm not sure that's true. Having 1s trs in should not be a glare.
There is that referencein ksw, but it is for a certain type of
person. One who has gone frome habitual use of automaticities, to
dedication to getting the ethics of this planet in. Others might have
a dedicated glare for reasons roughly along the same lines.
In fact most cults seem
> to cultivate it. You sometimes even see it in Amway distributors.
Oh; is Amway a cult, now? I thought they were a multi-level marketing
scheme that had been checked and found valid enough, by no less than
60 minutes.
>
> This is an interesting turnaround from his position in the early days
> while writing Dianetics. In this book he talked of the 'too often
> hypnotised stare' and saw it as evidence of the degraded state of man.
I think you take way too much for granted.
In general, we get the scientology we deserve. I've seen people go in
in control, and stay that way. The optimum clientele of scientology
is not people with a poorly developed sence of self (there may be
exceptions there too).
> Example A
>
> "Do fish swim?"
>
> "Errr...well do bears shit in the woods?"
>
> "I will repeat the auditing question. Do fish swim?"
>
> Example B
>
> I thrust a leaflet at the public.
>
> Public rejects leaflet.
>
> I ignore this response and continue to hold the leaflet out.
>
> Public takes leaflet.
>
> You see the similarity? Both examples show the Scientologist
> overcoming the will of another person by being more focused upon the
> objective and blanking their communication.
>
> Mastery of this technique makes one a master manipulator but carries a
> terrible price.
>
> DEADNESS.
>
> I found that the better I became at manipulating others the more dead
> to the world I became. Nothing was quite real to me and I had the
> sensation I was watching the world through a pane of glass. I suffered
> a peculiar dislocation by which I both knew and did not know that
> Scientology was a crock of shit. I fantasied about being kidnapped and
> forcefully deprogrammed because I lacked the strength to walk away.
Quite telling. So by doing this you're developing a sence of self. I
suppose I can't knock you for that. I will say; there should be a
scientology for people to whom the neccessity to clear the planet is
not clear, or not real, because 1s personal ruin prevents confronting
3rd/4th d.
>
> I found this emotional deadness lead to a sort of physical deadness. I
> had the peculiar sensation that my face were merely a piece of dead
> meat stuck to the front of some other hidden face. Sometimes I would
> cut myself shaving because this 'dead' face was physically numb- as
> were the tips of my fingers.
>
> I also became aware that I would obey orders automatically without
> intending to do so. This was actually a pleasant discovery as I could
> take a rest while my body followed the orders of other people on some
> auto pilot mechanism.
I personally found it refreshing to realise that my counter-intention
was an automaticity. Many if not all religions help 1 to discover
that resistance is often pure idiocy, based on ideas of heroism via
rebellion that are completely innappropriate to most situations/
harmful to much good. That these kids these days suffer from this
problem that I've long ago won, gives me endless suffering.
>
> I became a fanatic- and yet at the same time I knew that I were in the
> grip of something evil that was draining me of all physical and mental
> life.
You were a fanatic. When and if you ever get some R on the principles
of scientology, you might be good for it/you. Scientology has never
condoned holding your hand until your personal R catches up, outside
what is done for each person on course and in session (E.g. lrh talks
about how to handle slow students over and over again in the study
tapes).
>
> I became both master and slave- able to control others but no longer
> in control of my own body and mind.
>
> A very strange sensation.
You were a churchie.
Slarty
Who's the other 1?
Slarty
I disagree, especially since in the cchs the cog is often ability to
control 1s self. I got out of co$ w/ greater self-control, in
general, not just applicable to scientology. Yes this can scare
wogs. Wogs are generally easilly scared. I still think that that
term is valid, btw. I can't help but thinking it valid looking @ much
of human behavior.
Slarty
I have a theory about "dissasociative states". I think they happen
whenever 1 is overwhelmed in a certain way by anything outside social
norms, or super-human. The social self separates from the self thats
been thru such an experience.
You feel like
> you've become an observer of yourself, not quite in your body, removed
> emotionally and seemingly physically too from your body, and slightly
> removed from your own words and actions.Instead of feeling you are in
> a situation and doing things, you watch yourself doing things from a
> distance. Sometimes people who have committed homicides get found not-
> guilty by reason of insanity because a court accepts evidence the
> perpetrator was in such an extreme dissociative state that they had no
> control over their own actions, and experienced the crime as if they
> were a helpless observer watching someone else commit the crime!
> Maverick psychiatrist R.D. Laing wrote a lot about the dissociative
> state, 35+ years ago, in books such as "The Divided Self".
What are your thoughts on r.d. laing?
>
> It doesn't argue well for Scientology's beneficial effects if the cult
> helps provoke such unhealthy states of mind! I wonder if Hubbard's
> teaching that you are a thetan, and that a thetan's consciousness is
> located actually outside the body might in some cases help create a
> dissociative state in some people?
if so, then so have gnostics / others of such ilk, thru the millenia.
But I believe it would require more
> that teaching alone in order to create that "deadness" state you
> describe.
>
> It believe would take a system that's emotionally traumatizing, or
> lacking in emotional support and love, to provoke emotionally
> unhealthy states of mind such as you describe.
If scientology had more of that lovey-dovy stuff more , it might be
the church
of all worlds; which; come to think of it; might not be such a bad
idea...hmmmmm.
> Yet Scientology claims it makes people emotionally healthier!
"Slappy"
> Miscavige is a shining example of that!
When we talk of miscavage; let us give him a slight break. He has to
be a big enouh being to confront the 4th d more than any1 else on the
planet right now. From a scientology point of view; thats his actual
job. I bet you thats his actual attitude torwards all he does.
Slarty
> >> It doesn't argue well for Scientology's beneficial effects if the cult
> >> helps provoke such unhealthy states of mind! I wonder if Hubbard's
> >> teaching that you are a thetan, and that a thetan's consciousness is
> >> located actually outside the body might in some cases help create a
> >> dissociative state in some people? But I believe it would require more
> >> that teaching alone in order to create that "deadness" state you
> >> describe.
>
> The view goes a lot farther than you are aware of, the view
> is that the body and the entire physical universe of space and time
> are a dream, they don't exist at all except as a co hallucination
> between all dreamers.
>
> Thus the thetan does not exist outside the body, because
> there is no outside to exist in.
If the idea homer describes hear seems absurd to you, you MIGHT BE a
dogmatic materialist.
Slarty
The thetan actually has no location, except considered location.
However; if you're on THIS PLANET, the chances are 100% that you have
considerations about location.
>
> --" Actually many people do 'exteriorise' at the point in the bridge I
> am
> describing. This is when a person literealy feels they are leaving
> their body. It can seem very, very, real.
> It is real, put a number on a 3 by 5 card and tape it to
> the back of your head. Next time you exteriorize in session
> read the number. "
>
> -What Scientology calls "exteriorizing" sounds similar to what others
> refer to as OBEs (Out-of-Body-Experiences) or "astral projection"..
Not quite. You'll find that hubbard defines astral projection in the
tech dic. Astral projection is mocking up an energy body and
exteriorising in it's point of view (verbal data so look it up).
> I'd view this a somewhat different phenomenon though than the typical
> dissociative state, which is more along the lines of neurosis/mental
> illness. I don't view OBEs as necessarily being unhealthy states of
> consciousness, although it potentially can lead to problems in some
> cases, apparently.
As long as its all paisly hippy trippy, its not dangerous; but if they
get serious their hitler. I've heard that 1 before/it's not any
funnier this time.
It's a paranormal talent many people strive to
> attain, not just in Scientology! Assuming some Scientology techniques
> actually do work (as you suggest) to help some people learn this
> trick, one certainly doesn't need Scientology training to learn it!
> Many others have taught methods to learn how to experience OBEs, an
> age-old paranormal talent dating back to the earliest spiritual
> beliefs and practices of mankind : Shamanism. The ability to have OBEs
> at will, to visit other locales on the physical plane, or explore
> other realms, the famous "astral" (and other) planes, for instance, or
> "the land of dead", etc,.is a typical ability claimed by Shamans. In
> modern times, Robert Monroe of the Monroe Institute was prominent in
> the filed of training people to learn to have OBEs at will.
Yeagh; the poimt I've tried to tell people of for decades now, is that
hubbard just codified and simplified and defrilled/ made steps to
quantifying occultism, or "spiritual science:", if I may so define, a
bit further better/ less obfuscationly than did crowley. I think
hubbard may be the state of the art in a large part of occultism/ the
resistence to scientology is largely because, not despite, that.
>
> But if an OBE-er starts having trouble feeling fully re-embodied, or
> fully earth-bound after returning from an OBE journey, then maybe
> he's developing some mental problems!
> I've read historical material about The Hermetic Order of the Golden
> Dawn, the magical group founded in England in the late 1800s. There's
> evidence a number of magicians working in the Golden Dawn tradition
> apparently became habituated to "astral journeys", but failed to
> adequately stick to the cardinal rule of "keeping the planes separate"
> - i.e. taking measures to prevent the astral impinging on normal,
> everyday existence - as a result, a number of magicians unfortunately
> ended up in mental asylums.
I'd like the reference on that.
>
> Assuming what you say is true that some Scientologists actually do
> learn the trick of exteriorization or OBEs, I wonder if any or many of
> them ever suffer a similar fate of losing their grip on reality, and
> suffering mental breakdowns?
Scientology can handle anything. Even scientology.
Slarty
Gop back to france.
Slarty
Scientology is still the real gadfly. Your so rebellious you give
official dogmatic materialist line every time. I almost confused you
for andy kaufman, then I woke up/realised it was a dream.
Bobb999
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" It is not a trick, it results momentarily from running out a past
death which is a moment of enforced exteriorization. As the being
relives the death, not remember, RELIVES..."
-I see. So Scientologists "exteriorizing" aren't practicing astral
projection as such, it's more a spontaneous byproduct of auditing,
especially when lives are "relived' as ending or beginning.
That reminds me, I wonder how authentic Scientologists' whole track,
past live "memories" are? Tory Christman tells the amusing tale of
meeting two different Scientologists the same week who both recalled a
past life as Julius Caesar. Obviously, one (or both) were mistaken!
Another former Scientologist notes (in a You Tube vid I saw) that
Scientologists recalling supposed prior incarnations typically cannot
recall a single word of the foreign language they supposedly spoke at
the time. That's a bit suspicious. Have any of these Scientologist
past lives ever been empirically validated by taking obscure details
remembered, and corroborating them with actual historical documents?
There are apparently some persuasive cases of past life memories well
corroborated, some out of India especially, where a small child
recalls his or her prior life with minute details that get
corroborated upon investigation. Also, Tibet has a tradition of
identifying child incarnations of past holy men. The current Dalai
Lama was IDed as a child as the reincarnation of a prior Lama. He had
to prove it by identifying items the deceased Lama had possessed, and
by correctly answering questions about the deceased Lama.
I'm just wondering if Scientologists in fact recall actual past lives
instead of imaginary ones, and if they are true memories, where's the
corroborative evidence?
********************************************
-"You'll find that hubbard defines astral projection in the
tech dic. Astral projection is mocking up an energy body and
exteriorising in it's point of view (verbal data so look it up). "
-Ah ha, so Scientology does recognize astral projection but it is
apparently different from "exteriorization" that occurs during
processing.
Hubbard's definition sounds similar to that of Crowley and the magical
tradition. Instead of "astral body" or "body-of-light", Hubbard uses
the term "energy body", apparently.
Does Scientology ever teach such astral projection as Hubbard
describes, though?
****************************************
-"What are your thoughts on r.d. laing?"
-Well, I think when Laing was writing, the biochemical basis of mental
health/illness was not as well understood and established. He seemed
to think emotional trauma and emotionally untenable family situations
provoked dissociative states and schizophrenia. I'm sure these are
sometimes factors, as schizophrenic episodes sometimes (but not
always) follow emotionally traumatic situations. But I believe brain
chemistry has lot to do with it too. Many cases of serious mental
illness may be be completely unrelated to emotional trauma, and may
be entirely due to bad brain chemistry which anti-psychotic drugs can
help correct. Actually I should have included the biochemical angle in
my earlier post about dissociative states, and their possible causes.
*********************************************************************************
-"Yeagh; the poimt I've tried to tell people of for decades now, is
that
hubbard just codified and simplified and defrilled/ made steps to
quantifying occultism, or "spiritual science:", if I may so define, a
bit further better/ less obfuscationly than did crowley. I think
hubbard may be the state of the art in a large part of occultism/ the
resistence to Scientology is largely because, not despite, that. "
-Interesting theory, but you seem to grant LRH an awful lot of credit,
probably much more than he deserves!
If Hubbard's occultism/spiritual science is "state of the art", then
why do so many ex-Scientologists of the highest attainment typically
say the paranormal abilities Hubbard claimed
clears and OTs would gain, never appear. Or, at best,any abilities
acquired are disappointingly meager compared to the promises made.
And if Hubbard's tech is "state of the art", where are the legions of
enlightened,wise & powerful thetans it should have produced by now,
possessing perfect physical, mental and emotional balance and health?
Those who made it to the top ended up disillusioned and disappointed
and feeling like dupes. Or for those high OT level folks for whom
Scientology still possesses some credibility, the question is do THEY
possess much credibilty?? Miscavige, Marty Rathburn, Tommy Davis, Tom
Cruise, Kirstie Allie...Rather than superhuman wisdom and freedom ,
these folks more frequently demonstrate serious human weakness,
ignorance, emotional immaturity, and sometimes barbarism. They've also
given up independence of mind and rational discernment, opting instead
for blind acceptance and indoctrination. These don't look to me like
credible graduates from an ideal (or even a half-way acceptable)
school of spiritual science!
Same goes for LRon himself. The revered "Source, the "great
master",over time became dangerously ill mentally and physically. He
was reportedly a near-wreck in his last years, taking vast quantities
of anti-psychotic Vistaril to keep him from slipping into complete
insanity! Again, not a shining example of the great attainments
reached via the Scientology road!
Ron Hubbard Jr's (a.k.a Ron De Wolf's) observations about his father
may be relevant here. Ron Jr. suggests his father intentionally
avoided making Scientology a system that produced highly attaining
people. According to Ron Jr., LRH viewed such people as threats, and
all early "clears" LRH fell out with for this reason. LRH's paranoia
made him wary of any student actually getting close to him in terms
of possessing powers he believed he himself possessed! Ron Jr.
believed the early versions of tech leading to "clear" did work to an
extent, but that all the OT levels added later were worse than
useless, and did nothing to improve anyone, a scam and dead-end.
Ron Jr. also claimed that in private Dad practiced much "magick tech",
but that he kept most of it to himself, not wanting to share most
occult secrets and techniques with his followers!
Call me a cynic, but there appear to be many rational reasons, imo, to
be skeptical of the supposed value of Scientology's tech and the
Bridge-to-Total-Ron-dom, and certainly to be skeptical it represents
state of the art spiritual science!
**************************************************
" '...as a result, a number of magicians unfortunately
ended up in mental asylums'.
I'd like the reference on that. "
-For instance, occult historian and former member of Kenneth Grant's
OTO, Mr. Francis King in his book "The Rites of Modern Occult
Magic" (published in England as "Ritual Magic in England") has a
chapter called "Dr. Felkin's Astral Junkies" recounting the fate of
the Amoun (London) Temple of the Stella Matutina (the new name for a
major branch of The Golden Dawn after the early 1900s G.D. "civil
war")
p.127 - 133; "...the [three] Chiefs of the Amoun Temple in London
became as addicted to mediumship and astral travel as a drug-addict to
heroin! They buried themselves in the seething images of their own
unconscious minds to such good effect that two of them became
schizophrenic - one of them, a clergyman, was later to die in a mental
hospital - and in 1919, Felkin was forced to close the temple down."
"...From 1916 on, Miss Stoddart (Soror Het-ta), the ruling Chief of
Amoun Temple, and her two clerical co-Chiefs [both Anglican
clergymen], engaged themselves almost non-stop in these astral
junketings....She was instructed to join the Anglican Church...which
she accordingly did; the experiences she underwent during church
services...trances, saw visions, and received much astral teaching!...
[She] saw, in place of the altar, the Vault of the Adepti, into which
filed twelve black-robed and cowled figures. She then felt a sharp
pain in her heart [then] 'a curious creeping faintness'. "
-The three chiefs became increasingly paranoid: "both she and her
fellow schizophrenics had decided that the experiences they were
undergoing - astral attacks, mysterious smells, visions of the astral
light, spontaneous trance - were caused by 'Black Rosicrucians' who
were trying to achieve control of their physical bodies." ! [Perhaps
those evil Black Rosicrucians were in fact some of Emperor Xenu's
nasty body-thetans!]
It should also be noted that a number of folks who became too closely
associated with Aleister Crowley and his magick ended up having bouts
of insanity, and some ended up in mental asylums, or ended up as
alcoholics or suicides.His wives and mistresses frequently became
seeress-assistants experiencing astral visions in aid of his magick.
A number of them came to sticky ends: insanity, alcoholism, or both.
His first wife Rose Kelly, who had figured prominently in Crowley's
receiving of his famous "the Book of the Law" in 1904 entered a
mental asylum in 1911 and was certified insane. A similar fate befell
Crowley's later wife Maria Teresa Ferrari de Miramar, admitted to
Colney Hatch insane asylum in 1930 suffering delusions such as she was
daughter of the King & Queen and had married her brother the Prince of
Wales!
Some of Crowley's male magician followers also had serious bouts of
insanity: Wilfred T. Smith became unhinged after going on a "magical
retirement" at Crowley's behest.
Charles Stansfeld Jones (Frater Achad), Crowley's "magical son"had
also "gone mad; this madness had taken a most unusual form. Its first
sign had been Jones joining the Catholic Church with the object of
converting it to Crowleyanity. Not having much success with this
project, he took to going about wearing only a raincoat which at
suitable moments he would fling aside, exposing himself with the
object of showing that he had given up all Veils of Illusion." [from
The Magical World of Aleister Crowley, by Francis King, p.163]
--Ms. Dion Fortune, a prominent occultist of the Stella Matutina/
Golden Dawn who later formed her own "Society of the Inner Light",
has written about the importance of keeping the planes separate. In
her 1930 book "Psychic Self Defence", she has a chapter called "The
Risks Incidental to Ceremonial Magic", which outlines a number of
dangers inherent in magical practices, including the risk of obsession
by various forces unleashed during astral/ritual work. She also
recounts a mysterious death of an occultist, Miss N. Fornario, found
dead
on a lonely hillside on the Scottish Island of Iona. Miss Fornario had
evidently been engaged in an occult working there. When Dion Fortune
had worked with this woman years earlier, "it appeared to me that
'Mac', as we called her, was going into very deep waters...and that
there was certain to be trouble sooner or later...She had evidently
been on an astral expedition from which she never returned."[Psychic
Self Defence, p.100]
-Conclusion? Astral travelers beware! And if you must go astral
journeying, at least take adequate precautions!
Richard Ford
>
> - Show quoted text -
Exteriorisation is a brain misfunction. It is sometimes caused when a
patient has taken cortisone for some time and then stops. Nothing
'spriritual' about it.
Jommy Cross
in msg
<d9c33b73-2ebf-4c6f...@j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>:
<snip>
>Now Jommy, how about taking over my self-appointed position as
>invading gadfly on Marty Rathbun's blog? Huh? Maybe just for a month?
>It may be thankless, but I think it will have some impact in the long
>run.
I need a machine to manufacture more hours in the day as it is.
Slarty
1) This is lore. There's no way to verify this ever actually occured.
2)Hubbard warned against this sort of thing 3) @ least in your
accounting of it; the case level of the people involved is not
mentioned 4) I've never observed scientologists discussing their past
lives, @ all. Scientologists are very clearly forbidden from
discussing their cases.
> Another former Scientologist notes (in a You Tube vid I saw) that
> Scientologists recalling supposed prior incarnations typically cannot
> recall a single word of the foreign language they supposedly spoke at
> the time. That's a bit suspicious.
If you believed you could gain total freedom by recalling certain
things, and knew that the details of foreign languages you 1ce spoke
were not going to get you freer, would you waste your time on that?
The lore I've heard is that when it is part of the problem, people do
regain the ability to speak former languages. Happens fairly
frequently, is my understanding; but only when part of whats tying the
person down. Also; I'm guessing beings tend to stay w/ a language, or
@ least a language group, to make learning language less of a pain in
the ass.
Have any of these Scientologist
> past lives ever been empirically validated by taking obscure details
> remembered, and corroborating them with actual historical documents?
If nothing, see lrh's: journey into time.
> There are apparently some persuasive cases of past life memories well
> corroborated, some out of India especially, where a small child
> recalls his or her prior life with minute details that get
> corroborated upon investigation. Also, Tibet has a tradition of
> identifying child incarnations of past holy men. The current Dalai
> Lama was IDed as a child as the reincarnation of a prior Lama. He had
> to prove it by identifying items the deceased Lama had possessed, and
> by correctly answering questions about the deceased Lama.
So; do you think that only those who've proven it have had past
lives? Or them and a few others; or do you believe every1 has had
past lives? If so; I am saying I know of no work better designed to
discover them, and seperate the "dub in" (scientology term) from the
real than hubbard. You've skimped alot on your preperatory research.
> I'm just wondering if Scientologists in fact recall actual past lives
> instead of imaginary ones, and if they are true memories, where's the
> corroborative evidence?
Who has that kind of time?
>
> ********************************************
> -"You'll find that hubbard defines astral projection in the
> tech dic. Astral projection is mocking up an energy body and
> exteriorising in it's point of view (verbal data so look it up). "
>
> -Ah ha, so Scientology does recognize astral projection but it is
> apparently different from "exteriorization" that occurs during
> processing.
During and also outside of processing: Yes; exteriorisation is w/out
an energy body or light body if you prefer (the light body is what we
call a via. In general; in all they do; scientologists work on having
0 via's in what they do.)
> Hubbard's definition sounds similar to that of Crowley and the magical
> tradition. Instead of "astral body" or "body-of-light", Hubbard uses
> the term "energy body", apparently.
> Does Scientology ever teach such astral projection as Hubbard
> describes, though?
No. See above.
>
> ****************************************
>
> -"What are your thoughts on r.d. laing?"
>
> -Well, I think when Laing was writing, the biochemical basis of mental
> health/illness was not as well understood and established. He seemed
> to think emotional trauma and emotionally untenable family situations
> provoked dissociative states and schizophrenia. I'm sure these are
> sometimes factors, as schizophrenic episodes sometimes (but not
> always) follow emotionally traumatic situations. But I believe brain
> chemistry has lot to do with it too. Many cases of serious mental
> illness may be be completely unrelated to emotional trauma, and may
> be entirely due to bad brain chemistry which anti-psychotic drugs can
> help correct. Actually I should have included the biochemical angle in
> my earlier post about dissociative states, and their possible causes.
I guess I'm kinda weird. I place very little stock in the medical
model. @ the same, if it helps some people; I'll try to keep my
distance.
>
> *********************************************************************************
> -"Yeagh; the poimt I've tried to tell people of for decades now, is
> that
> hubbard just codified and simplified and defrilled/ made steps to
> quantifying occultism, or "spiritual science:", if I may so define, a
> bit further better/ less obfuscationly than did crowley. I think
> hubbard may be the state of the art in a large part of occultism/ the
> resistence to Scientology is largely because, not despite, that. "
>
> -Interesting theory, but you seem to grant LRH an awful lot of credit,
> probably much more than he deserves!
This ability you have to estimate probabilities about something you've
not studied intrigues me.
> If Hubbard's occultism/spiritual science is "state of the art", then
> why do so many ex-Scientologists of the highest attainment typically
> say the paranormal abilities Hubbard claimed
> clears and OTs would gain, never appear. Or, at best,any abilities
> acquired are disappointingly meager compared to the promises made.
Which 1s? The 1s who've left the church? I think this is more of a
can of worms than I really care to handle.
> And if Hubbard's tech is "state of the art", where are the legions of
> enlightened,wise & powerful thetans it should have produced by now,
All over. I can only speculate as to why they don't talk to you.
> possessing perfect physical, mental and emotional balance and health?
> Those who made it to the top ended up disillusioned and disappointed
> and feeling like dupes. Or for those high OT level folks for whom
> Scientology still possesses some credibility, the question is do THEY
> possess much credibilty?? Miscavige, Marty Rathburn, Tommy Davis, Tom
> Cruise, Kirstie Allie...Rather than superhuman wisdom and freedom,
> these folks more frequently demonstrate serious human weakness,
> ignorance, emotional immaturity, and sometimes barbarism.
Currently it's very NOT IN to speak bad of the Dalai Llama. He's
going along w/ the psychs; he lost his country, to the chinese
commies, and his idea of enlightenment seems to be alwayes friendly/
peaceful, as is typical of buddhists. Hubbard was working under the
"supposition" that the social sciences were euripean in origon/based
on socialism. In other words; he decided they should be attacked.
How do you imagine mystics and others of such ilk would act if they
were not being dedicated to peace?
They've also
> given up independence of mind and rational discernment, opting instead
> for blind acceptance and indoctrination.
What makes you think that?
These don't look to me like
> credible graduates from an ideal (or even a half-way acceptable)
> school of spiritual science!
What is the standard w/which you would make such a judgement?
> Same goes for LRon himself. The revered "Source, the "great
> master",over time became dangerously ill mentally and physically.
According to some sources.
He
> was reportedly a near-wreck in his last years, taking vast quantities
> of anti-psychotic Vistaril to keep him from slipping into complete
> insanity!
Wow! I've never even heard that rumor. Seems completely counter-
intuitive, too. Who's putting that rumor out there?!
Again, not a shining example of the great attainments
> reached via the Scientology road!
>
> Ron Hubbard Jr's (a.k.a Ron De Wolf's) observations about his father
> may be relevant here. Ron Jr. suggests his father intentionally
> avoided making Scientology a system that produced highly attaining
> people.
That may be true; I think. That's why I'm in the free zone.
According to Ron Jr., LRH viewed such people as threats, and
> all early "clears" LRH fell out with for this reason. LRH's paranoia
> made him wary of any student actually getting close to him in terms
> of possessing powers he believed he himself possessed! Ron Jr.
> believed the early versions of tech leading to "clear" did work to an
> extent, but that all the OT levels added later were worse than
> useless, and did nothing to improve anyone, a scam and dead-end.
That may be true. Welcome to the free zone.
> Ron Jr. also claimed that in private Dad practiced much "magick tech",
> but that he kept most of it to himself, not wanting to share most
> occult secrets and techniques with his followers!
Yeagh; I've read that book! lrhjr was a scandal mongering little
shit; as 1 might expect from a jr case (right there in book 1).
> Call me a cynic, but there appear to be many rational reasons, imo, to
> be skeptical of the supposed value of Scientology's tech and the
> Bridge-to-Total-Ron-dom, and certainly to be skeptical it represents
> state of the art spiritual science!
There are. Most of them turn out to be invalid, but there certainly
are a lot. Do you believe there could be a science of spirit? Do you
believe there is such thing as a real spirit (not metaphorical, but
actual)?
>
> **************************************************
> " '...as a result, a number of magicians unfortunately
> ended up in mental asylums'.
>
> I'd like the reference on that. "
>
> -For instance, occult historian and former member of Kenneth Grant's
> OTO, Mr. Francis King in his book "The Rites of Modern Occult
> Magic" (published in England as "Ritual Magic in England") has a
> chapter called "Dr. Felkin's Astral Junkies" recounting the fate of
> the Amoun (London) Temple of the Stella Matutina (the new name for a
> major branch of The Golden Dawn after the early 1900s G.D. "civil
> war")
Yeagh; I've read some of kings works. He writes good stuff in my
opinion, but in all I've read I've noted him having a taste for
sensationalism over and over again.
Yeagh; Crowley seemed to think the fact that he was thee greatest
magus on the planet gave him the right to be a total asshole, @ least
for a while. He seems to have been right.
Yeagh. Crowley knew about those, too. You should hear what df had to
say about crowley. They conversed by letter fairly extensively in
later years, and she practically admitted his superiority. They
respected eachother immensely is the impression I got.
She also
> recounts a mysterious death of an occultist, Miss N. Fornario, found
> dead
> on a lonely hillside on the Scottish Island of Iona. Miss Fornario had
> evidently been engaged in an occult working there.
Both crowley / hubbard this sort of sensationalist crap.
When Dion Fortune
> had worked with this woman years earlier, "it appeared to me that
> 'Mac', as we called her, was going into very deep waters...and that
> there was certain to be trouble sooner or later...She had evidently
> been on an astral expedition from which she never returned."[Psychic
> Self Defence, p.100]
>
> -Conclusion? Astral travelers beware!
Sure. Beware. Know your stuff; and don't noodle around, unless you
know you can. Life has its pitfalls. That said my recommendation to
all everywhere is that they don't become paralyzed by fear.
"Why on earth are we here?! Surely not to live in pain and fear! Why
on earth are you there; when your everywhere; better get your share;
and we all shine on; like the moon; and the stars and the sun"-John
Lennon
Slarty
Yeagh; from what I've heard; randi has a strange ability to
disappear, when the real thing shows up. From what I've heard he's no
showed several times. That's part of the reason I call him the "not-
so-amasing" randi.
Slarty
There's something spiritual about everything/you're writing about
forced exteriorisation. Happens emmediately after death, every time
we die, too.
Mike Thomas
Hash: SHA1
Well you will never know until you, yourself dies.
I believe it is possible to slow time and travel to places in the mind,
this is simply meditation - it's nothing new. Although, both of these
things are known to be impossible in the real world.
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