DOES MENTAL ILLNESS EXIST?
squeaky
by Lawrence Stevens, J.D.
All diagnosis and treatment in psychiatry, especially biological
psychiatry, presupposes the existence of something called mental
illness, also known as mental disease or mental disorder. What is
meant by disease, illness, or disorder? In a semantic sense disease
means simply dis-ease, the opposite of ease. But by disease we don't
mean anything that causes a lack of ease, since this definition would
mean losing one's job or a war or economic recession or an argument
with one's spouse qualifies as "disease". In his book Is Alcoholism
Hereditary? psychiatrist Donald W. Goodwin, M.D., discusses the
definition of disease and concludes "Diseases are something people see
doctors for. ... Physicians are consulted about the problem of
alcoholism and therefore alcoholism becomes, by this definition, a
disease" (Ballantine Books, 1988, p. 61). Accepting this definition,
if for some reason people consulted physicians about how to get the
economy out of recession or how to solve a disagreement with one's mate
or a bordering nation, these problems would also qualify as disease.
But clearly this is not what is meant by "disease". In his discussion
of the definition of disease, Dr. Goodwin acknowledges there is "a
narrow definition of disease that requires the presence of a biological
abnormality" (ibid). In this pamphlet I will show that there are no
biological abnormalities responsible for so-called mental illness,
mental disease, or mental disorder, and that therefore mental illness
has no biological existence. Perhaps more importantly, however, I will
show that mental illness also has no non-biological existence - except
in the sense that the term is used to indicate disapproval of some
aspect of a person's mentality.
Find out more at www.antipsychiatry.org
-Squeaky
Orkeltatte aka Ulf Brettstam
Yes mental illnes exists - and you know what? There is always a
chemical imbalance to be found which in most cases that can be
corrected with treatment.
Medical scientifically based activities under governmental control and
quality certified against metafysically based activities build on
different belief systems eg. New age, homeopati, scientology, praying
to the Gods, etc, etc,.
Naturally the mysticistic "movements" has a need of discrediting real
science in order to get their paying customers for their own personal
benefit. Preferably without any insight and control.
This is also why Co$ and other scamoperators is targeting the weakest
individuals like addicts, mentally handicaped and so on and so forth.
To be able to uphold income and customer stocks, they need to do a lot
of black propaganda against scholar medicine branches such as
psychiatry for one.
Quite simple.
Truth will always prevail at the end of day.
Operating under cover of a "non profit org. - eg a "Church" gives the
scamoperators taxexemptions and protection from scrutiny regarding
their different hilarious statements on a number of topics.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hubbard did in fact found himself in need of
psychiatric help in his letter from 1947 to the veterans medical
administration.
read the original letter here :
http://www.clambake.org/archive/ronthenut/beg.htm
Reading this , Hubbards narcissism is also strikingly evident combined
with his paranoic features. Almost demanding that a psychiatrist was
to be stationed in his vicinity for the sole purpuse of treating the
great Hubbard himself, who did not find it feasable to undergo the
hospitalized care ( translates to paranoic fear) and treatment he so
evidently needed. He also requested treatment free of charge because
he was not able to make ends meat!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Allthough not being through the auditing process myself,I would from
my secondary knowledge state, without a doubt , that the auditing
process with the e-meter , is a process that gradually numbs your
emotions. From what I have learned , the e-meter reacts to the
physiological changes that are produced when emotions are stirred.
Is it not true, that to reach the state of "clear" you are to have no
signifiquant needle-reactions from the e-meter when confronted with
your inner thoughts and "disturbing" memories?
So when there are no reaction , emotions are numbed, as is the case
with the psychopaths with none or just a rudimentary capacity to have
emotions , especially for other people.
As stated in the headline : Auditing can create psychopaths, or at
least people with severely damaged emotional capacities. This would
also be a likely explanation to why well trained scientologists are so
easily led to conducting all the horrifying acts to other human beings
we have learned about ( Lisa McPherson etcetera) , without a blink of
the eye.
Herein lies also a propabel explanation to the magnitude of criminal
acts and behavior by cult members, especially high ranked ones.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to Master L Ron Hubbard and his "Shit-tology" children are
merely adults in small bodies and hence fully responsible for their
actions from day one! Any childrearing practice based on or within
the realm of Scientology ( better named Shit-tology in my opinion) can
be nothing but emotional,psychological and I would not be the least
surprised if it was shown, also physical abuse of the unfortunate
children that was stupid enough to choose "braindeads" as parents. (
Pun intended regarding the possibility to choose parents ) Why?
Because with this ideation the real child becomes invisible and its
human rights and basic human needs will be totally neglected, thats
why.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Scientology and a more modern denial of human nature"
Reflecting on Scientology and the "battle over the right to have the
correct explanation on the human" I would recomend reading the book
with the subtitle above. The battle in this newsgroup are in a lot of
postings off topic, especially antipsychiatric ones.
"Our theory of human nature is the wellspring of much in our lives. We
consult it when we want to persuade or threaten, inform or deceive. It
advises us on how to nurture our marriages, bring up our children, and
control our own behavior. Its assumptions about learning drive our
educational policy; its assumptions about motivation drive our
policies on economics, law, and crime. And because it delineates what
people can achieve easily, what they can achieve only with sacrifice
or pain, and what they cannot achieve at all, it affects our values:
what we believe we can reasonably strive for as individuals and as a
society. Rival theories of human nature are entwined in different ways
of life and different political systems, and have been a source of
much conflict over the course of history." ( part of book review:The
Blank slate: The modern denial of human nature. Steven Pinker)
http://www.wnyc.org/books/5373
"Every man, wherever he goes, is encompassed by a cloud of comforting
convictions, which move with him like flies on a summer day."
(Bertrand Russel)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Practising scientology is like wetting your panties!
It gets warm at first - then it gets cold and develops a stink
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Psychologists act against Dianetics", by Lucy Freeman, New York
Times, 9/9/50
The American Psychological Association today called on
psychologists, "in the public interest," not to use in therapy the
techniques "peculiar" to a new approach in mental health called
Dianetics. It is outlined in a book of the same name.
The action was taken in a resolution adopted by the Council of
Representatives, governing body of the association, at its closing
season.
The association stated that "in view of the sweeping
generalizations and claims regarding psychology and psychotherapy made
by L. Ron Hubbard in his recent book "Dianetics," the American
Psychological Association adopts the following resolution:
"'While suspending judgment concerning the eventual validity of the
claims made by the author of "Dianetics," the association calls
attention to the fact that these claims are not supported by empirical
evidence of the sort required for the establishment of scientific
generalizations. In the public interest, the association, in the
absence of such evidence, recommends to its members that the use of
the techniques peculiar to Dianetics be limited to scientific
investigations designed to test the validity of its claims.'."
The book, now a best-seller since its publication several months
ago, has been the subject of discussion in psychological and
psychiatric circles. The psychologists represent the first scientific
group to take official action against it and did so only after long
deliberations.
In explaining the action of the council, Dr. E. Lowell Kelly, a
member of it and of the board of directors, said, "what we have here
is a man who claims he has discovered an exact science of the mind and
developed a technique of therapy which goes far beyond that known to
psychology, psychiatry, and psychoanalysis."
He described the technique advanced in the book as "as a
hodge-podge of accepted therapeutic techniques with new names."
One of the main objections to the book made by psychologists is its
contention that anyone, having read it, may practice therapy
successfully without danger to the patient. There is no evidence in
support of this view and "considerable evidence against it," Dr.
Kelley declared.
Mr. Hubbard is described by his publishers as "a mathematician and
theoretical philosopher." The book is titled "Dianetics, the Modern
Science of Mental Health, a Handbook of Dianetic Thereapy." The
preface states that the author has discovered a technique "which will
invariably cure all psychosomatic ills and human aberrations."
In another recommendation, the council "strongly urged" the 8,000
members of the association, as individuals, to offer "tangible
support, in all possible ways, financial and otherwise, to their
collegues whose connections with the University of California at
Berkeley have been severed by recent action of the Regents."
In New York, neither Mr. Hubbard nor a spokesman for his publisher
could be reached last night for comment
44 years later empirical evidence still can not support the claims
made by Hubbard and no reproduceable scientific investigation has been
done in support of those claims.
On the contrary , there is a substantial mass of empirical evidence
regarding the danger from practising Dianetic technology.
There are also lots of scientific evidence supporting the uselessness
of the "rundown" program and evidence of potentila risks.
In short , today most people are aware of the Scientology bogus
operation and the risks of cult involvement , with the exception of a
shrinking number of parcticing scientologists of course.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It might be less known to the public - but in fact the brain is in its
function a gland!
What is a gland?
A gland is an organ with either exocrine - endocrine - or paracrine
function or , as in the case of the brain , all these capacities.
Exocrine means that the gland is excerts substances via orificies or
canals to the outside of the body. ( Intestine is also an outside
surface)
Endocrine means the gland excerts substances to he bloodstream , with
a target organ on a distance from the gland.
Paracrine means the gland excerts substances to the absolute vicinity
of the glandcells.
The brain has exocrine function - the cerebrospinal fluid.
Endocrine function - all releasing hormones for instance.
and paracrine function - the transmittorsubstances, eg serotonine,
norepinephrine,dopamine to mention a few.
Hence the brain is a gland!
Can this be chemical?
You tell!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Educational requirements for a Psychiatrist:
A psychiatrist must have an M.D. or D.O. degree from an accredited
school of
medicine or osteopathy (or international equivalent) and must complete
at least
4 years of accredited residency training, including a minimum of 3
years in
psychiatry. Subspecialty board certification requires additional
training.
Board-certifiable subspecialties include child and adolescent
psychiatry and
geriatric psychiatry. Total post high school education: 11 years
Educational Requirements to lead $cientology:
9th grade education.
In Sweden you have to take a medical exam from the University first, 5
1/2 years ( the latter 2 years includes clinical practice) . Then you
have to do 22 month of clinical training and theoretical studying to
become MD. Then you have to do your specialist training and studying (
approx. 5 years) to become a psychiatrist . Minimum 12 1/2 years of
studying and clinical training.
If you want to specialize yourself in more than one branch of
psychiatry ( as in my case) you have to do at least 3 more years of
training and studying ( sometimes more depending on individual
experiences) in that field.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Psychiatrist: The problem is caused by a chemical imbalance.
Witch Doc: No, it's evil spirits.
Psychiatrist: Prove it.
Witch Doc:Eh, well, that is ... well, you prove it's a chemical
imbalance!
Psychiatrist: No problem. Whe can start with the Nobelprizewinner
Arvid Carlsson who showed the signifiquance and role of dopamine in
psychotic disorders (schizophrenia and others)Since this major
discovery a wide range of psychopharmaceuticals has been developed ,
all of them more or less targeting the domine receptors in the brain.
Why? - Because the psychotic symptoms totally vanishes or at least
lessens to a point where the affected person can lead an almost normal
life ( 2/3 of the schizophrenics , wich constitute 0,1% - 0,15% of the
total population all over the world , regardless of socioeconomic
factors)
Then we can continue with Marie Åsberg et al. This group did a post
mortem study on suicide victims in Sweden. They categorized the
victims after the level of violance and method used in the suicide ,
measured the levels of 5-HIAA ( serotonine metabolite) in the
cerebrospinal fluid. Findings were that those who used exessive
violance ( shooting, high jumping , jumping in front of trains,
hangings etcetera) had signifiquantly lower levels of 5-HIAA compared
to normal controls and those using less violant methods
(intoxication). This study has since had a profound effect worlwide
and led to the development of SSRI (Selective Serotonine Reuptake
Inhibitors) wich today is first choice treatment in depression.
I think these two examples gives the proof you need to conclude the
importance of having a normal balance in your neurochemicals if you
don´t want to get struck with either psychosis or depression.
Witch Doc:I must go home and do my homework immidiatly!!
Psychiatrist:Good point.
Witch Doc:It's a chemical imbalance!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Recent studies ( 02-03) has shown that antidepressant therapies ,
pharmacological and ECT , stimulates the stemcells of the brain to
proliferate at a higher rate than normal.
This is now thought to be the actual mechanism behind the successful
outcomes from treatment.
Earlier studies on ratbrains that was stimulated with a weak
electrical current , showed same thing - stemcell proliferation and
differentiation.
The process can be even more boosted with physical activation.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
APA says in "The Practice of Electroconvulsive
Therapy.Recommendations for Treatment,Training and Privileging, a Task
Force Report 2001: "As a major treatment in psychiatry with
well-defined indications,ECT should not be reserved for use only as a
"last resort". Such practice may deprive patients of an effective
treatment,may delay response and prolong suffering,and may possibly
contribute to treatment resistance."
AND
"There is no evidence that repeated courses of ECT lead to permanent
structural braindamage or that a limit on the maximum lifetime number
of treatments with ECT is appropriate"
AND
info to patients: "In light of the accumulated body of data dealing
with structural effects of ECT , "brain damage" should not be included
as a potential risk of treatment"
AND
about memory ," There is no evidence that ECT results in lasting
impairments of executive functions,skill acquisation or
retention"...."it is unkikely that ECT has any long-term effect on the
capacity to learn and retain new information"..."Against this
background of unchanged or improved neuropsychologic performance,ECT
selectively results in anterograde and retrograde amnesia"..."No study
has documented anterograde amnestic effects of ECT more than a few
weeks after the ECT course"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are two clinical effects from ECT treatment - antidepressive
and
impairment of short term memory. Both well known and validated since
60 or so years of scientific studies. Now you do the math- if this
treatment was dangerous or damaging - would you honestly believe it
was still to be allowed. Just a simple reasoning with common sense,
what would you say?
Two of the most significant studies proving ECT are not damaging to
the brain:
1. Bergshol P, Larsen JL, Rosendahl K et al
Electroconvulsive therapy and cerebral computed tomography. A
prospective study. ACTA Psychiatr Scand 1989:80:566-572 AND
2. Coffey CE, Weiner RD, Djang WT et al
Brain anatomic effects of electro convulsive therapy. A prospective
magnetic resonance imaging study. Arch Gen Psychiatry
1991:48:1013-1021
Ulf Brettstam
squeaky
not a true condition and it is created by the psychiatrists only so
they can prescribe drugs to individuals for profit. -Squeaky
Barbara Schwarz
squeaky wrote:
> It is now becoming well known that chemical imbalance in the brain is
> not a true condition and it is created by the psychiatrists only so
> they can prescribe drugs to individuals for profit. -Squeaky
>
> Orkeltatte aka Ulf Brettstam wrote:
> > squeaky wrote:
> > > Does Mental Illness Exist?
Ulf also e-shocks and hypnotizes kids and other people. I think that
Ulf knows that suicide bombers and terrorists are drugged and
hypnotized but that he covers his knowledge about how to make these
zombies up.
Barbara Schwarz
**********
Tilman Joerg Hausherr from Berlin, Germany (hired by Siemens and
married to Ilse Hruby-Plechl, a nurse) is an anti-religious harasser
and defamer. He is pro Eugenics, defends psychiatrists who sexually or
otherwise abused patients, is a German governmental agent and wants to
hurt the American tourism.
http://www.religiousfreedomwatch.org/extremists/hauser1.html
http://www.religiousfreedomwatch.org/whistle/cwletters/cw2.html
http://groups.google.com/group/de.soc.weltanschauung.scientology/msg/...
Tilman Hausherr posted approx. 24.000 aniti-religious hate messages on
Usenet and his thinking is compared to that of Hitler.
http://www.alarmgermany.org/tilman.htm
Tilman Hausherr is cold, cruel, fanatic and unprofessional
http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Tilman+Hausherr&btnG...
http://bernie.cncfamily.com/sc/sitemap.htm
About OPC agent Tilman Hausherr and his company Siemens which made and
delivered WMD to Saddam and covered it up:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.religion.scientology/msg/7d8f...
***************
Wikipedia founder Jim Jimmy "Jimbo" Wales is/was the owner/ CEO of porn
search engine Bomis.com. That may also explain why Wikipedia is such a
libel machine in which "contributor" gangs have the only saying as e.g.
the gang supporting Tilman Hausherr or Marty Sharp of Chillicothe, MO
64601.
Wikipedia's "Monitor Hall" applies Wikipedia "policies" only for the
advantage of their "contributing" gang members and deletes any
information that reveals their "contributors" as the lawless people or
criminals as they are. "Monitor Hall" suppresses any speech that he
does not like and abuses his Wikpedia "monitor" postition. "Monitor
Hall's" Wikipedia profile says that he is a Canadian living in Liberty
Lake, Washington, who is mainly interested in sport and entertainment,
which means that he is not even qualified to edit information on me. I
hope that Wikipedia and their gang contributors are being sued for
Millions of Dollars by their victims. People who go to Wikipedia for
education purposes are fools!
They block people who they libel in articles. That is Wikipedia's way
to deal with freedom of speech. They lie and plot that a person
violated the rules and block her to post the facts. Wikipedia is not
just not fair but anti-democratic.
Marty Sharp lives at home with his dad but often posts from Olathe,
KS. He stole the ID's of many people and forged them on his website.
Sharp posts with "Simkatu" or "Anus Simkatu" (Yuk!) on Usenet and stole
the ID "Vivaldi" to spread lies about me on Wikipedia. Geocities just
canceled his criminal website http://www.geocities.com/martysharpgolf/.
The police chief of Chillicothe, MO, is very interested in any
information on Marty Sharp.
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&q=simkatu&qt_s=Search
Sharp/Sinkatu defames, libels, harasses and stalks anti-suicide
encouragement activist Patrick Sullivan and me in mentally retarted and
insulting websites, and Sharp blocks the domains in which we live that
we can't read his libel, so the corrupt fool thinks.
One day Sharp/Simkatu/"Vivaldi" claims to be a mechanical engineer,
another a day he claims to be a bioengineer, a biomedical engineer and
a member of the Biomedical Engineer Society. Lol!
********
realpch
>
> It is now becoming well known that chemical imbalance in the brain is
> not a true condition and it is created by the psychiatrists only so
> they can prescribe drugs to individuals for profit. -Squeaky
>
<snip>
Squeaky, you crack me up!
Peach
roger gonnet
Hubbard says from men. That all are below 2.0 unless highly processed by your
specious fraudulous processes?
It seems your memory is quite short. as your master legs are now!
r
rmayf
Incredible blasé.
rmayf
A severed foot is the ultimate stocking stuffer.
Mitch Hedberg
"realpch" <rea...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:434EA46C...@aol.com...
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com
LLL
>show that mental illness also has no non-biological> >existence - except
>in the sense that the term is used to indicate disapproval of >some
>aspect of a person's mentality.
I have a question: This really happened to me. If you see a woman
walking down the street who has goopy silver stuff in her hair and all
over her body, a silver hat; her clothes are dirty; she actually has
mutiple layers of clothes; and she is talking in angry tones to no one
in particular, how would you help her?
What would you do?
LLL
>show that mental illness also has no non-biological> >existence - except
>in the sense that the term is used to indicate disapproval of >some
>aspect of a person's mentality.
I have a question: This really happened to me. If you see a woman
Simkatu
Dispose of her quietly and without remorse.
People below 1.1 on the tone scale don't have civil or human rights.
roger gonnet
"squeaky" <squea...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1129222116.7...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Does Mental Illness Exist?
> by Lawrence Stevens, J.D.
hey, Squeaky the Kowardy, why don't you ever answer to real arguments, like the
fact that Hubbard had hundreds terms to defined mentally ill people?
r
Lisa Ruby
>Does Mental Illness Exist?
Mental torment exists. Does mental torment mean that a person has an
organic disease which must be managed with drugs? No, but organic
beings (demons) are often the source of debilitating mental torment
(including suicidal compulsions), and drugs can only cover over the
symptoms for a time and pave the way for more organic beings to inflict
even more mental torment.
Psychiatry is not the answer and neither if Scientology. The answer is
not allowed on this CoS controlled forum but I will give it anyway:
Only the God of the Holy Bible has the power to deliver a person from
the powers of darkness.
Lisa Ruby
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
Lisa Ruby
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
Eldonbraun
time. Since time immemorial, there has always been a certain percentage
of people who behaved abnormally. Some of those posed a danger to
themselves and others. They got locked up or otherwise dealt with by
society.
You and this Goodwin quack appear to think Jeffrey Dahmer (to cite one
example) had no biological or non-biological problem. He was just
mistunderstood, right?
Sorry, but mental illness definitely exists. Brain anomalies exist. And
yours is obviously not functioning very well. Maybe it's time for a
tune-up.
Kim Palmer
yeah - a visit to an exorcist is gonna cure clinical depression and
bipoar disease. That will work - sure and when it does not the person
is told their faith is weak and they are not praying hard enough or
god(s) want them to suffer for whatever magical reason so the person who
is already suffering is made to feel guilty for not feeling better. So
how is that supposed to help? Geesh people like you make me sick - an
ill person should not be made to feel guilty for being ill - and medical
treatments are available so why would you deny someone that? Based on
some mythical creation? That is cruel and inhumane and without merit -
and yet you claim a loving god.
Kim P
Barbara Schwarz
I remember that you too think that psychs make a lot of money, Peach. I
remember I read something posted by you hereto a while ago.
Barbara Schwarz
***********
Meet my completely disturbed stalker, forger, threat maker, persecutor,
defamer, libeler Garry Lynn Scarff from Hollywood, California.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.scientology/msg/e3f1d03833e5f2ea?dmode=source&hl=en
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=active&num=30&q=Garry+Scarff%2Bforger&safe=active&qt_s=Search
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Garry%20Scarff%2Bstalker%20&num=30&hl=en&lr=&safe=active&sa=N&tab=wg
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Garry%20Scarff%2Bthreats&num=30&hl=en&lr=&safe=active&sa=N&tab=wg
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Garry%20Scarff&num=30&hl=en&lr=&safe=active&sa=N&tab=wg
http://freespeechstore.com/Qresults.asp?Search_Keyword=Scarff+&btnSearch2=Find+Speech
forge postings.
*************
Tory (Victoria Lee Christman) claims to be an expert on Scientology
despite her severe misunderstandings. If she would tell the truth, how
come she can't even convince her husband and son on that her claims are
correct? And what mother walks out of her only son to hang with these
guys? http://www.parishioners.org/extremists/index.html What kind of
mother is Tory?
http://www.parishioners.org/medianews/index.html
************
Brian J. Bruns is a convicted computer crime felon. He lied about me
maliciously in his AHBL website. He is the abuser. He tried to bully me
from the web as he dislikes that I have a right of free speech too.
Despite Bruns noticed thousands of malicious spam forgeries posted by
Garry Scarff, he never tried to block his server Earthlink.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.news-media/msg/1854c1412f78ba56?dmode=source&hl=en
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.scientology/msg/4ee7c26c8d32b2d7?hl=en&
About Bruns and other NANAE punks:
http://freespeechstore.com/Qresults.asp?Search_Keyword=kirch+bruns+sosdg+ahbl+2mbit+felon+hackers&btnSearch2=Find+Speech
******************
Barbara Schwarz
She might just need a home, food, bath, perhaps drug rehab and somebody
who educates her to get a job. That is what I would do. Shovel the
psych treatments, they might have gotten her down in the first place.
Eldonbraun
> LLL wrote:
> > > Perhaps more importantly, however, I will
> > >show that mental illness also has no non-biological> >existence - except
> > >in the sense that the term is used to indicate disapproval of >some
> > >aspect of a person's mentality.
> >
> > I have a question: This really happened to me. If you see a woman
> > walking down the street who has goopy silver stuff in her hair and all
> > over her body, a silver hat; her clothes are dirty; she actually has
> > mutiple layers of clothes; and she is talking in angry tones to no one
> > in particular, how would you help her?
> >
> > What would you do?
>
>
> She might just need a home, food, bath, perhaps drug rehab and somebody
> who educates her to get a job. That is what I would do.
Do you have all the above?
ramona
> Lisa Ruby wrote:
>
> > Title of thread:
> >
> >
> >>Does Mental Illness Exist?
> >
> >
> > Mental torment exists. Does mental torment mean that a person has an
> > organic disease which must be managed with drugs? No, but organic
> > beings (demons) are often the source of debilitating mental torment
> > (including suicidal compulsions), and drugs can only cover over the
> > symptoms for a time and pave the way for more organic beings to inflict
> > even more mental torment.
> >
> > Psychiatry is not the answer and neither if Scientology. The answer is
> > not allowed on this CoS controlled forum but I will give it anyway:
> > Only the God of the Holy Bible has the power to deliver a person from
> > the powers of darkness.
> >
> >
> > Lisa Ruby
> > http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Lisa Ruby
> > http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
> >
> yeah - a visit to an exorcist is gonna cure clinical depression and
> bipoar disease.
On exorcism, not much different than the Lisa McPerson situation:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/20/national/main594278.shtml
and
http://www.courttv.com/trials/exorcist/070904_verdict_ctv.html
and
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1145742&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312
People are just dying to be ultra-religious.
Ramona
Eldonbraun
official Catholic exorcism rites, which are better orchestrated. These
are squirrel exorcisms done by flipped-out fundamentalist fanatics.
ramona
Eldonbraun wrote:
>
> >
> > On exorcism, not much different than the Lisa McPerson situation:
> >
> > http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/20/national/main594278.shtml
> >
> > and
> >
> > http://www.courttv.com/trials/exorcist/070904_verdict_ctv.html
> >
> > and
> >
> > http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1145742&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312
> >
> > People are just dying to be ultra-religious.
> True Ramona. But of course, these shouldn't be confused with the
> official Catholic exorcism rites, which are better orchestrated. These
> are squirrel exorcisms done by flipped-out fundamentalist fanatics.
Absolutely!! That is why I mentioned the "ultra-religious." That was
my P.C. attempt at using a word other than Fundamentalist.
http://www.logoschristian.org/malachi_martin/christian.html Is a prime
example of what you stated.
And as defined by Catholicism.
http://www.trosch.org/chu/exorcism.htm
or this
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05709a.htm
and from this site
http://www.ghostvillage.com/legends/2003/legends14_03222003.shtml
"An exorcism is a prayer that is performed over a person to release
them from evil," the Father said. "When a Catholic is baptized, you
actually go through an exorcism at that time. There's a prayer that's
asking to protect the person being baptized, and you're anointed with
holy oil -- the oil of catechumen. So every person baptized in the
Catholic Church is exorcised."
Ramona
Eldonbraun
> Eldonbraun wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > On exorcism, not much different than the Lisa McPerson situation:
> > >
> > > http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/20/national/main594278.shtml
> > >
> > > and
> > >
> > > http://www.courttv.com/trials/exorcist/070904_verdict_ctv.html
> > >
> > > and
> > >
> > > http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1145742&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312
> > >
> > > People are just dying to be ultra-religious.
> > True Ramona. But of course, these shouldn't be confused with the
> > official Catholic exorcism rites, which are better orchestrated. These
> > are squirrel exorcisms done by flipped-out fundamentalist fanatics.
>
> Absolutely!! That is why I mentioned the "ultra-religious." That was
> my P.C. attempt at using a word other than Fundamentalist.
Being P.C. has never been one of my outstanding virtues ;-). However, I
sincerely thank you for searching out all those great links.
Interesting reading!
Those articles are all a hell of a lot better written than OT III, huh?
LOL, Eldon
Lisa Ruby
Kim Palmer wrote:
> yeah - a visit to an exorcist is gonna cure clinical depression and
> bipoar disease.
I did not mention EXORCISM. And it is a good thing you brought up
gods (with a small "s" to denote demons) and magic because that is what
exorcism really furthers: Satan's agenda. Satan is glorified when his
workers force demons out of hurting, mentally tormented people in order
to increase his organization's pool of power.
Scientology accomplishes this with their auditing practices but only
those who have the heart to go along with something like this are
informed about what auditing's secret purpose.
Getting help from God to be delivered from the powers of darkness is
NOT the same as the magical rite of exorcism or the more "scientific"
kind--auditing.
Lisa Ruby
http://www.libertytothecaptives
Lisa Ruby
>hey, Squeaky the Kowardy, why don't you ever answer to real arguments, >like the fact that Hubbard had hundreds terms to defined mentally ill >people?
One of the terms Hubbard used was psychotic. It is SO interesting
that Hubbard placed Christians to be in this category.
Yes indeed, Hubbard promoted the NWO vehemently even
though he probably never used that term. He preferred the phrase,
"prison planet" which Alex Jones now uses for one of his websites.
Hubbard would be pleased that Alex Jones promotes John
Breeding and Patricia Weathers since they are both
affiliated with Scientology's Citizens' Commission on Human Rights.
Many of the ARS critics further Hubbard's agenda by treating a certain
Christian as a suppressive who should not be associated with
and who should not be armed with the documentation that will get
right to the heart of what Scientology is truly about: world
government.
I am glad that God is not limited by Hubbard's agenda.
Lisa Ruby
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
ramona
Eldonbraun wrote:
> ramona wrote:
> > Eldonbraun wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > On exorcism, not much different than the Lisa McPerson situation:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/20/national/main594278.shtml
> > > >
> > > > and
> > > >
> > > > http://www.courttv.com/trials/exorcist/070904_verdict_ctv.html
> > > >
> > > > and
> > > >
> > > > http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1145742&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312
> > > >
> > > > People are just dying to be ultra-religious.
> > > True Ramona. But of course, these shouldn't be confused with the
> > > official Catholic exorcism rites, which are better orchestrated. These
> > > are squirrel exorcisms done by flipped-out fundamentalist fanatics.
> >
> > Absolutely!! That is why I mentioned the "ultra-religious." That was
> > my P.C. attempt at using a word other than Fundamentalist.
> Well Hon,
>
> Being P.C. has never been one of my outstanding virtues ;-).
It's not been one of mine, but I try to overcome my blunt nature at
times.
However, I
> sincerely thank you for searching out all those great links.
> Interesting reading!
I am absolutely fascinated by religion...that's why I stay here. New
religions are especially fun to study with real time doctrinal shifts,
but then I consider Christianity a new religion whose greatest
influence was the polytheist Constantine.
>
> Those articles are all a hell of a lot better written than OT III, huh?
Anything not written by Hubbard is better written. But then I battle
the unquenchable need to sleep in my attempts to read anything written
by the man. How was that for p.c.?
Ramona
Kim Palmer
demons are merely the "enemy" - convenient for fundies to blame
everything on - like scientologists and sp's
there is no such thing as demon possession - anymore than there is
such a thing as a bt or an ot - simply a fantasm nothing more
kimp
Lisa Ruby
>demons are merely the "enemy" - convenient for fundies to blame
>everything on - like scientologists and sp's
>there is no such thing as demon possession - anymore than there is
>such a thing as a bt or an ot - simply a fantasm nothing more
This is what Scientologists are taught. It is good for the CoS that
ARS is frequented by critics who believe like they do in this and other
crucial areas.
Lisa Ruby
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
Lisa Ruby
>Zaffis said, "You don't know what the outcome of the exorcism is going to >be - it's very strong, it's very powerful. You don't know if that person's >going to gain an enormous amount of strength, what is going to come >through that individual, and being involved, you will also end up paying a >price."
>Many times the demon will try to attack and attach itself to the priest or >minister administering the exorcism. According to Father Martin's book, >the exorcist may get physically hurt by an out-of-control victim, could >literally lose his sanity, and even death is possible.
When God is delivering a person from demonic affliction, the person who
is helping will not be injured, lose his sanity or die--and neither
will the person who is being helped.
When the rite of exorcism is being "performed" on an individual very
bad things can and do happen. Satan has a counterfeit for
everything--even deliverance from evil spirits. It is called EXORCISM
and it is dangerous.
Lisa Ruby
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
Bent Stigsen
> Title of thread:
>
>>Does Mental Illness Exist?
>
> Mental torment exists.
Ok, but is it the same? Mental Illness is a vague and general term
covering many different circumstances regarding the mind/brain. *Some*
conditions I would agree, can probably not directly be considered an
illness, but rather a mental challenge or torment as you say.
> Does mental torment mean that a person has an
> organic disease which must be managed with drugs? No,
You have to prove that "Mental Illness" and "Mental torment" are
interchangable concepts in order to make that conclusion with regard
to the original question. And if they are interchangable concepts,
then there really is no point in changing the wording.
By using the word "torment" instead of "illness", you have allready
implied that there is no disease, which may or may not be be the case
of an mental illness.
What I would additionally ask is:
Can an organic disease result in a mental illness or torment?
Can an organic disease be treated/managed by drugs?
Allthough I think you are right, that a mental torment does not mean
that the person has an organic disease. And as far as I know,
Psychiatry don't *just* treat those conditions with drugs, but can be
therapy alone or both drugs and therapy, depending on what has shown
to be most effective.
> but organic
> beings (demons) are often the source of debilitating mental torment
> (including suicidal compulsions), and drugs can only cover over the
> symptoms for a time and pave the way for more organic beings to inflict
> even more mental torment.
As far as I can tell, this is pretty much the same Scientology says,
with the difference that they blame BT's instead of "organic beings".
What you both exclude and deny is physical conditions. Whatever you
may think the "mind" is (soul/thetan), the gooey stuff inside the
cranial cavity, still plays a crucial role. It (the brain) can be
inflicted like any other organ by medical conditions. Like any part of
the body for that matter.
> Psychiatry is not the answer and neither if Scientology. The answer is
> not allowed on this CoS controlled forum but I will give it anyway:
> Only the God of the Holy Bible has the power to deliver a person from
> the powers of darkness.
I understand that the concept of God is that (s)he has infinite
wisdom. The Holy Bible may contain some of that wisdom, but obviously
not all. The rest we can only find by means of research, and presto
there is Psychiatry for you.
Wouldn't whatever they find, be what God intended them to find?
/Bent
Lisa Ruby
>What you both exclude and deny is physical conditions
The brain is an organ and can get sick. People can get brain cancer and
other diseases of the brain.
MInds can be "sick" in the sense that the person can be delusional,
full of fear and mental tormented, but minds cannot become ill with a
disease like
brains can.
Mental illness is a term coined by the psychiatric industry because it
serves THEIR purpose.
If minds can become diseased then they have the false premise they
need to make billions by drugging millions of people.
The psychiatric industry treats mental pain with drugs and thus creates
"chemical imbalances" (drugs DO cause chemical imbalances in the body)
that "require" life-long drugging to treat.
Lisa Ruby
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
mail.com
<orkel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> squeaky wrote:
> > Does Mental Illness Exist?
> > by Lawrence Stevens, J.D.
Yeah, I'm going to rush to a fucking LAWYER for answers to all of
my medical questions.
Sheeeish. No wonder so many Scientology customers end up killing
themselves.
---
http://lastliberal.org / I support privatization of religion.
Free random & sequential signature changer http://holysmoke.org/sig
"Waiter, can you help? This man has a soup in his fly." -- Mike Hammer
Orkeltatte aka Ulf Brettstam
Lisa Ruby wrote:
> Bent wrote:
>
> >What you both exclude and deny is physical conditions
>
> The brain is an organ and can get sick. People can get brain cancer and
> other diseases of the brain.
>
> MInds can be "sick" in the sense that the person can be delusional,
> full of fear and mental tormented, but minds cannot become ill with a
> disease like
> brains can.
You are obviously uninformed on the topic in question.
> Mental illness is a term coined by the psychiatric industry because it
> serves THEIR purpose.
Psychiatric industry? - This seems to me as the statement from an
indoctrinated individual.
> If minds can become diseased then they have the false premise they
> need to make billions by drugging millions of people.
>
> The psychiatric industry treats mental pain with drugs and thus creates
>
> "chemical imbalances" (drugs DO cause chemical imbalances in the body)
> that "require" life-long drugging to treat.
>
Yet another uninformed and indoctrinated statement. There are no
industry treating people , only single doctors. Preferably we work in
teams with others when it comes to the chronically and severely ill -
one such form is "Case Management". But I guess I am only wasting my
time writing to you - you actually know the facts on this don´t you?
> Lisa Ruby
> http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
Ulf Brettstam
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
[Voltaire]
Lisa Ruby
>Yet another uninformed and indoctrinated statement. There are no
>industry treating people ,only single doctors.
Yes, individual doctors--most who are strongly influenced by the
psychiatric drug industry--are treating people. And the result is an
increasingly drug-dependant population.
While being firmly opposed to Scientology, I am concerned that hurting
people are being led to a lifelong dependency on drugs due to what is
sometimes no more than severe stress or responses to extremely sad
situations. If a person tries to commit suicide, they are not automatic
candidates for lifelong drug dependency. Taking drugs is not coping--it
is the opposite of coping. It is letting something else (the drugs) do
the coping for you.
>But I guess I am only wasting my time writing to you - you actually know >the facts on this don´t you?
I am trying to help others with my postings. I am sure you are trying
to do the same.
Lisa Ruby
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
Bent Stigsen
> Bent wrote:
>
>>What you both exclude and deny is physical conditions
>
> The brain is an organ and can get sick. People can get brain cancer and
> other diseases of the brain.
>
> MInds can be "sick" in the sense that the person can be delusional,
> full of fear and mental tormented, but minds cannot become ill with a
> disease like brains can.
Ok, I can go along with that.
> Mental illness is a term coined by the psychiatric industry because it
> serves THEIR purpose.
Indeed.
Just as terms like mental torment, daemons, organic beings, powers of
darkness and so on, serves *your* purpose.
Just as terms like tone scale, body thetans, engrams, merchants of
chaos and so on, serves Scientology's purpose.
They are just words in a terminology. To what extent they have
anything to do with reality is another matter.
> If minds can become diseased then they have the false premise they
> need to make billions by drugging millions of people.
You previously said "The brain is an organ and can get sick."
I believe that is the premise they go by.
> The psychiatric industry treats mental pain with drugs and thus creates
Sure there is a industry associated with Psychiatry, which not allways
play nice, but Psychiatry is foremost a branch of medicine. I think it
is an important distinction to make.
> "chemical imbalances" (drugs DO cause chemical imbalances in the body)
> that "require" life-long drugging to treat.
Psychiatry (the branch of medicine) continually do their best to come
up with something better, which may end in no permanent use of drugs.
Presently neither method or understanding is perfect, but as long
there is no effective alternative, it is going to be used.
It is fine that people like you keep reminding them that it is not
perfect, but no offence, if you don't like that people seek the help
from psychiatry, then tough luck, they don't answer to you.
[quote King James - Romans 14:8-13]
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we
die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he
might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought
thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow
to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this
rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his
brother's way.
[end quote]
/Bent
Lisa Ruby
>Just as terms like mental torment, daemons, organic beings, powers of
>darkness and so on, serves *your* purpose.
Powers of darkness is a concept taught in this verse: Eph 6:12 For we
wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities,
against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Rulers of the darkness of this world (spiritual rulers of evil) are
powers of darkness. Drugs do not combat these rulers.
Bent wrote:
>It is fine that people like you keep reminding them that it is not
>perfect, but no offence, if you don't like that people seek the help
>from psychiatry, then tough luck, they don't answer to you.
Giving people medicine to calm them in a crisis situation is not
desirable but is sometimes necessary. Giving people drugs for a
lifetime and at the same time telling them there is no God who can help
them with their problems is another thing. It is evil in the sight of
the one who will judge us all at the last day.
It is true that psychiatry does not answer to me but one day those who
harm others via this industry "shall give account to him that is ready
to judge the quick and the dead." 1 Peter 4:5
Lisa Ruby
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
Lisa Ruby
>least people with severely damaged emotional capacities. This would
>also be a likely explanation to why well trained scientologists are so
>easily led to conducting all the horrifying acts to other human beings
>we have learned about ( Lisa McPherson etcetera) , without a blink of
>the eye.
Charlie Manons' followers certainly fit the "damaged emotional
capacities" category. Yes, they were well-trained to conduct horrifying
acts.
Lisa Ruby
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
Orkeltatte aka Ulf Brettstam
Lisa Ruby wrote:
> Ulf Brettstam wrote:
>
> >Yet another uninformed and indoctrinated statement. There are no
> >industry treating people ,only single doctors.
>
> Yes, individual doctors--most who are strongly influenced by the
> psychiatric drug industry--are treating people. And the result is an
> increasingly drug-dependant population.
No doubt there are differences between countries. In my country the
relationship between the medical society and the pharmacological
industry is strictly regulated. District attourneys doesn´t hesitate
to prosecute when any part (industry or doctors) are breaking the
rules. Advertising on medical drugs in the media is also very strictly
regulated. Just two weeks ago a collegue ( internal medicin) filed a
complaint with the proper authority against a drugcompany that
according to him made false claims regarding a specific drug and its
effects. Drugcompanies are fined when they break the rules , but in my
opinion the fines are to low.
I do however agree that to some extent there is a tendency to
medicalise different kind of problems as an "easy" way out when the
time we can give each patient are constantly shrinking.
>
> While being firmly opposed to Scientology, I am concerned that hurting
> people are being led to a lifelong dependency on drugs due to what is
> sometimes no more than severe stress or responses to extremely sad
> situations. If a person tries to commit suicide, they are not automatic
> candidates for lifelong drug dependency. Taking drugs is not coping--it
> is the opposite of coping. It is letting something else (the drugs) do
> the coping for you.
Fact of the matter is that there are a lot of medical conditions that
needs a lifelong treatment - and if not given , patient dies. Diabetes,
chronic hearth failure,autoimmunic disorders etcetera,etcetera. In the
field of psychiatry there are very few conditions that requests a
lifelong treatment. Some of the schizophrenic disorders and some of the
more severe forms of bipolar disorders - and that is it. The
overwhelming majority of psychiatric disorders can be treated with
temporary and timelimited medication. Duration of treatment varies from
a couple of days to a couple of years at the most. After this patients
are drugfree - no lifelong drugdependency!
>
> >But I guess I am only wasting my time writing to you - you actually know >the facts on this don´t you?
>
> I am trying to help others with my postings. I am sure you are trying
> to do the same.
>
>
> Lisa Ruby
> http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
Ulf Brettstam
"Inspiration: A peculiar effect of divine flatulence emitted by the
Holy Spirit which hisses into the ears of a few chosen of God...."
[Voltaire]
Lying Babble Schwarz
Schwarz:
Blah...blah...blah... blah...blah... blah...blah... blah...blah...
blah...blah... blah...blah...blah...blah... blah...blah... blah...
blah...blah... blah...blah... blah...blah... blah...blah...
blah...blah... blah...blah... blah...blah... blah...blah... blah...
blah...blah...blah... blah...blah... blah...blah... blah...blah...
Bent Stigsen
> Bent wrote:
>
>>Just as terms like mental torment, daemons, organic beings, powers of
>>darkness and so on, serves *your* purpose.
>
> Powers of darkness is a concept taught in this verse: Eph 6:12 For we
> wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities,
> against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
> against spiritual wickedness in high places.
>
> Rulers of the darkness of this world (spiritual rulers of evil) are
> powers of darkness. Drugs do not combat these rulers.
Sure, Psychiatrists only treat the brain, the organ (of flesh and
blood) that can get sick. People can go elsewhere to seek help with
the other things.
> Bent wrote:
>
>>It is fine that people like you keep reminding them that it is not
>>perfect, but no offence, if you don't like that people seek the help
>
>>from psychiatry, then tough luck, they don't answer to you.
>
> Giving people medicine to calm them in a crisis situation is not
> desirable but is sometimes necessary. Giving people drugs for a
> lifetime and at the same time telling them there is no God
Pardon me, but I seriously doubt they do that. Psychiatry don't deal
with the question of God's existance.
> who can help
> them with their problems is another thing. It is evil in the sight of
> the one who will judge us all at the last day.
That is still a judgement you do. Whether you choose your Book or
society, it is either up to the Lord or the law. If you think it is
wrong, then come up with an alternative that works.
> It is true that psychiatry does not answer to me
I meant those who seek psychiatric help, as they should be free to do
what they find is right. The medical field and Psychiatry do have a
responsibility to society in which they shall be judged by the law.
> but one day those who
> harm others via this industry "shall give account to him that is ready
> to judge the quick and the dead." 1 Peter 4:5
Hmm, that chapter doesn't mention medical malpractice, but anyway yes,
and in the meantime we have the law to deal with those in the industry
who exploit or harm people.
/Bent
Lisa Ruby
>I understand that the concept of God is that (s)he has
>infinite wisdom. The Holy Bible may contain some of
>that wisdom, but obviously not all. The rest we can only
>find by means of research, and presto there is Psychiatry
>for you.
>Wouldn't whatever they find, be what God intended them to find?
No, psychiatry has not found what God intended them to find.
Psychiatry's findings include the following: There is no God, no
Bible, no sin, and no Savior. This is secular humanism in a
nutshell and it is what Psychiatry is based on and perpetuated by.
Lisa Ruby
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
Lisa Ruby
>The overwhelming majority of psychiatric disorders can be treated with
>temporary and timelimited medication.
I think that in the United States, the trend is toward permanent
medication rather than transitory medication. A tranquilized population
does not oppose change--even change that is not in its best interest.
I would like to look into this matter further. Thank you for your
comments.
Lisa Ruby
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
Bent Stigsen
Psychiatry study the brain as it *is*, and isn't the brain of the
flesh as opposed to spirit, so what exactly is the conflict?
What a psychiatrist believe in is not your concern, and shouldn't make
a difference to the patient. It is not like they have to renounce
their belief in God, in order to recieve treatment.
/Bent
Lisa Ruby
>Pardon me, but I seriously doubt they do that. Psychiatry don't deal
>with the question of God's existance.
Psychiatric counseling does.
Lisa Ruby
Bent Stigsen
What makes you think that?
Psychiatric counseling would deal with issues related to the mental
illness of the patient. Unless the patient think he is God, God's
existence wouldn't become a topic.
/Bent
Orkeltatte aka Ulf Brettstam
Lisa Ruby wrote:
> Ulf Brettstam wrote:
>
> >The overwhelming majority of psychiatric disorders can be treated with
> >temporary and timelimited medication.
>
> I think that in the United States, the trend is toward permanent
> medication rather than transitory medication.
If this is correct - it would be highly unprofessional IMO.
Also unethical with regard to the Hippocratic oath "non nocere" - never
harm!
> A tranquilized population
> does not oppose change--even change that is not in its best interest.
>
> I would like to look into this matter further. Thank you for your
> comments.
>
>
> Lisa Ruby
> http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
Ulf Brettstam
Lisa Ruby
>What makes you think that?
There are many reasons, but for one, I happened to notice the quote on
Orkeltatte's signature:
"Inspiration: A peculiar effect of divine flatulence emitted by the
Holy Spirit which hisses into the ears of a few chosen of God...."
[Voltaire]
Voltaire was an avowed infidel (atheist) who took pains to blaspheme
the Holy Spirit that he claimed not to believe in by likening His
inspiration to smelly flatulence and hissing, which is reminiscent of a
serpent.
Read about Voltaire's last hours on earth here.
http://www.cuttingedge.org/shaw/shaw11.html#017
You can read all the chapters of the book, Dying Testimonies of the
Saved and Unsaved here:
http://www.cuttingedge.org/shaw/shaw11.html
Lisa Ruby
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
Eldonbraun
> Lisa Ruby wrote:
> > Ulf Brettstam wrote:
> >
> > >The overwhelming majority of psychiatric disorders can be treated with
> > >temporary and timelimited medication.
> >
> > I think that in the United States, the trend is toward permanent
> > medication rather than transitory medication.
>
> If this is correct - it would be highly unprofessional IMO.
> Also unethical with regard to the Hippocratic oath "non nocere" - never
> harm!
Drug companies are politically involved. They advertise heavily on TV
and in popular magazines encouraging people to "ask your doctor about
[name of drug]." They are also allowed to charge higher prices than
elsewhere, which is why there was such a big deal about people ordering
medications from Canada over the Internet to save money. There
definitely needs to be some reform.
Lisa Ruby
>If this is correct - it would be highly unprofessional IMO.
I agree.
>Also unethical with regard to the Hippocratic oath "non nocere" - never
>harm!
I am sorry to say that in our country, the Hippocratic oath has become
to many (but not all) doctors a mere tradition. Putting non-terminal
elderly people to death is becoming quietly required in many hospitals
and nursing homes...especially in Orange County California and other
Scientology strongholds.
Lisa Ruby
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
Barbara Schwanz
Funny...this coming from the wife of a Christian pastor. The New
Testament testifies to demonic possession....obviously, you haven't
done much Bible study as a pastor's wife.
Bent Stigsen
> Bent wrote:
>
>>What makes you think that?
>
> There are many reasons,
I am all ears.
What you imply would be wrong, and to tell you the truth I don't think
you are right. I don't believe that a counselor would ever mess with
the religious faith of a patient.
> but for one, I happened to notice the quote on
> Orkeltatte's signature:
>
> "Inspiration: A peculiar effect of divine flatulence emitted by the
> Holy Spirit which hisses into the ears of a few chosen of God...."
> [Voltaire]
That is his business and has nothing to do with psychiatry.
Why don't you ask Ulf, if he ever has discouraged a patients belief in
God or any other spiritual belief.
> Voltaire was an avowed infidel (atheist) who took pains to blaspheme
> the Holy Spirit that he claimed not to believe in by likening His
> inspiration to smelly flatulence and hissing, which is reminiscent of a
> serpent.
>
> Read about Voltaire's last hours on earth here.
>
> http://www.cuttingedge.org/shaw/shaw11.html#017
>
> You can read all the chapters of the book, Dying Testimonies of the
> Saved and Unsaved here:
>
> http://www.cuttingedge.org/shaw/shaw11.html
I fail to see what it has to do with mental illness, psychiatric drugs
or counseling.
I am getting the feeling that you would rather have a person suffer
with a mental illness, than to have them seek psychiatric help, just
because you consider them infidels. In which case you are just as
judgmental and intolerant as the Scientologists.
/Bent
Lisa Ruby
>I am getting the feeling that you would rather have a person suffer
>with a mental illness, than to have them seek psychiatric help, just
>because you consider them infidels.
No, I expect people who do not know God to embrace psychiatry. It is
the way of the world and it seems right unto man. I am simply trying to
say that
there is a better way. It is God's way.
There are other reasons for mental illness than meet the eye and that
is known to science. There is "treatment" for people who see spirits
(hallucinations) and suffer severe emotional torment and disjointed
thinking and self-abusive behavior that does not involve psychiatric
counseling and taking drugs.
I do not advocate banning the only way the world has figured out how to
deal with people's emotiona and mental problems. I advocate telling
people that it wiser to go to God for help because He created human
beings and knows how to help them live in a world filled with sin and
suffering.
I know that most people choose psychiatry rather than God.
Using psychiatric drugs provides practically instant relief and is
the only "medical" option that those who do not know God have.
The world has its treatment for mental instability and God has His
treatment: He says, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are
heavy laden, and I will give you rest." Mat 11:28 The world's
rest comes in the form of a prescription.
There is rest for one's soul God's way and rest for one's soul the
world's way. People must choose.
I advocate God's way and this is to be expected because I am
HIs follower. If you believe the world's way (psychiatry) is right
then you are not being prevented from choosing that way.
But it is important to know that "There is a way which seemeth
right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Proverbs 14:12
Thank you for taking the time to talk to me in a respectful manner.
I know that speaking in absolute terms is offensive to people in this
day and age (especially on the ARS forum) but that is the only way to
accurately represent the God of the Bible. He is absolutely right and
we are absolutely clueless about how to live without His help.
Lisa Ruby
http://www.liberytothecaptives.net
Constitutional Rights
news:1129355118.5...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Interesting. I would also add that Christ's teachings of forgiveness work
very well at resolving mental problems, anger, resentment and more.
When a person forgives, all anger and hatred disappears.
http://coco.essortment.com/psalmsstudy_repw.htm
Constitutional Rights
> Bent wrote:
>
> >Just as terms like mental torment, daemons, organic beings, powers of
> >darkness and so on, serves *your* purpose.
>
> Powers of darkness is a concept taught in this verse: Eph 6:12 For we
> wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities,
> against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
> against spiritual wickedness in high places.
I think they were talking about pagan Roman rulers like Nero Caesar who
would kill and rape whenever they felt like it, like animals do.
And yes, those pagan rulers held principalities, and yes, they ruled in high
places.
When the bogus King Herod died (Herod was not a faithful Jew, he was
installed by the pagan Romans) Herod tried to have 1,000 of the wealthiest
Jews in his region killed.
http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/history/e-h/herod01.html
Lisa Ruby
>I think they were talking about pagan Roman rulers like Nero Caesar who
>would kill and rape whenever they felt like it, like animals do.
Well, Ephesians 6:12 is about wrestling things that are not flesh and
blood, but rather, spiritual wickedness in high places. Roman rulers
were people--flesh and blood.
Lisa Ruby
Constitutional Rights
> Bent wrote:
>
> >What you both exclude and deny is physical conditions
>
> The brain is an organ and can get sick. People can get brain cancer and
> other diseases of the brain.
>
> MInds can be "sick" in the sense that the person can be delusional,
> full of fear and mental tormented, but minds cannot become ill with a
> disease like
> brains can.
Very good point. It would be incorrect grammar to say a person's mind can be
sick. To properly describe a person's behavior or feelings we use terms
such as angry, violent, selfish, criminal like, etc.
Medical terms like sickness or disease applies only to physical organs like
the kidney, lungs or brain.
It's impoirtant to point out that medical science admits there is no illness
or disease of the brain that can make a person break the law or commit a
crime.
Nor are there any drugs or chemicals that can make a person commit a crime.
This subject is the aspect of the psychology field that needs to be more
properly explained, as doing so will help remove some of the confusion
surrounding the field. Clearing this up will greatly help the psychology
field.
Another thing to help the psychology field is to keep all psychology
explanations and diagnoses either out of the court room, or to keep them
private in court under Protective Order. Doing this would guarantee the
privacy of those who seek help and, again, would lessen any fear and
confusion surrounding the field. This would result in more people seeking
help when need be; the would feel safer, their privacy guaranteed, and
similar.
These changes can be made two ways; One way is to pass legislation. A
quicker way is to file, within an existing lawsuit, a Motion to have Law
Deemed Unconstitutional.
Kim Palmer
> Bent wrote:
>
>
>>What you both exclude and deny is physical conditions
>
>
> The brain is an organ and can get sick. People can get brain cancer and
> other diseases of the brain.
>
> MInds can be "sick" in the sense that the person can be delusional,
> full of fear and mental tormented, but minds cannot become ill with a
> disease like
> brains can.
>
> serves THEIR purpose.
>
> need to make billions by drugging millions of people.
>
>
> that "require" life-long drugging to treat.
>
>
> http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
>
boogey men do not exist - only in the minds of frightened children
and like them fundies need someone to be afraid of so they made up
demons.
Mental illnesses are real - and can be treated - sometimes with drugs
which address the imbalances in brain chemistry. Brain and mind are
not separate - if the brain dies there is no mind - that is what pvs
actually is - brain death - cognitive functions cease to exist and
therefore the person no longer is - fairly straight forward if you
bother to actually read the science. Has nothing to do with religion and
the existance or non existance of any god(s) demons or any other fantasm
such as bt's ot's, nirvanna. vallhalla, stovelquor, or any other
mythical place.
Kim P
Kim Palmer
> Ulf Brettstam wrote:
>
>
>>Yet another uninformed and indoctrinated statement. There are no
>>industry treating people ,only single doctors.
>
>
> Yes, individual doctors--most who are strongly influenced by the
> psychiatric drug industry--are treating people. And the result is an
> increasingly drug-dependant population.
>
> While being firmly opposed to Scientology, I am concerned that hurting
> people are being led to a lifelong dependency on drugs due to what is
> sometimes no more than severe stress or responses to extremely sad
> situations. If a person tries to commit suicide, they are not automatic
> candidates for lifelong drug dependency. Taking drugs is not coping--it
> is the opposite of coping. It is letting something else (the drugs) do
> the coping for you.
>
yu really do not know how people are treated do you? Are you relying on
anecdotal evidence? That is entirely unscientific - however for your
edifictaion I suggest you do some real studying. A person is not
automatically put on drugs forever after one depressive episode -
depression caused by a situation is not the same as chronic depression
caused by chemical imbalances. Situational depression is not always
treated with drugs - often talk therapy and time is all that is needed
for the person to recover. Should the doctor, however, decide to
prescribe meds the meds are given for a specific time and the patient
monitored during the duration of treatment - once the situational
depression is over the meds are discontinued (gradually under doctor
supervision - not because of addiction but to ensure that there is no
return to the depression).
Chronic depression caused by chemical imbalances needs to be treated
differently - since the depression is not caused by situation but by
biochemistry. There is a difference and treatment varies depending on
the severity of the illness.
People like you piss me off because you dismiss the whole idea that some
people do need treatment for their illnesses which you have decided
based on nothing more than your mythology do not exist. Would you
condemn a diabetic who relies on insulin?
You live according to black and white thinking - there are no greys in
your world view - all is either or - and that may be easier than facing
the reality of a world that is made of shades of grey but it is shameful
to see and hear minds being wasted because questioning anything is seen
as some kind of sin.
Simplistic black and white thinking is one of the signs of a cult.
BTW for your information not liking fundamentalism of any kind is hardly
persecution of christianity and I am not now and never have been a
scientologist. I dislike religious fantasism of any stripe.
Kim P
Constitutional Rights
The pagan Roman rulers were also spiritually wicked. Am I correct?
Another interesting thing Jesus said, which aptly applies to drugs and
medication today, goes as follows;
Matthew 15:10
Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. What goes
into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his
mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "
In other words, a person's speech and actions determine how well a person
does in life far more than anything he can put into his mouth such as a
pill, type of food or whatever.
A person can physically pick up a pile of dirt and eat it. This won't affect
his soul, spirituality or inner love any way at all. If a person, however,
yells and shouts threats at someone he can cause a lot of trouble, for
himself mainly.
Mere pills or medication will not make a person "a good person". Medication
only affects the body physically. It can calm a person physically, or give
the person more energy, or help a person sleep.
But for a person to grow spiritually, he must study goodness and learn to
move with genuine love.
Kim Palmer
yeah yeah yeah Your religious beliefs are THE ONLY way -well guess what
that is what every single religion in the universe says - We have the
ONE TRUE path. Quoting from the bible means very little since we know
that that is what you see as the ONE authority in your world. Since it
is not the authority for a majority of humans in this world and since
the Koran and all the other religious texts support their world view
than yours is no more important or true than theirs are.
You see to think that anyone who disagrees with you is either a
scientologist or a demon or satanic or some other boogeyman out there to
destroy you.
Fundamentalists of any stripe are dangerous because they can only see
the world as black and white - good and evil - nothing in this world is
absolute good or absolute evil - the world is much more complex and much
more interesting than that. Instead of being afraid of everything that
does not fit in your wee small bax - get a bigger box.
Kim P
Eldonbraun
to be debated. Holland (and I suppose Sweden but I'm not sure) allows
doctors to "pull the plug" when a person's condition is deemed
hopeless-- but it requires a thorough review by a panel of doctors.
I've talked to doctors in the US who've said that they really hate to
do what they are legally REQUIRED to do in order to keep people alive
when they are obviously ready to die-- jamming respirators down their
throats, IVs and all that. Really gruesome stuff. This varies by state,
since the US is made up of 50 different countries where medicine is
concerned. Same goes for education.
Modern medical science can certainly keep people alive for a long time
after they're brain dead and non-functional. It's often painful,
inhumane and very expensive, taking resources that could be better used
in pediatrics and education to raise a healthier crop of next
generation human beings.
I don't doubt that abuses exist in the other direction, Lisa, but I do
think these issues need to be talked about and examined rationally. Of
course, that excludes Scientology from any debate by definition.
>
>
> Lisa Ruby
> http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
Kim Palmer
BULL SHIT - there are many doctors, psychiatrists, and other mental
health professionals who believe in your version of god and practice
their professions accordingly. You obviously have no clue and are
swallowing whatever you are being fed by close minded people who have no
clue what the real world is about.
Not all medical professionals are atheists and not all atheists are evil
and cruel either - I have seen more cruelty from so-called christians
than many of the atheists I have known.
I think it is crueler to not treat a mental illness properly based on a
belief system. Beliefs are merely beliefs - there is no proof of their
truth - that is why they are beliefs - whether or not a god(s) exist
cannot be proven one way or another - yet the efficacy of treatment of
mental illnesses can and has been proven empiracally.
Therein lies the problem - you remain insistant that your belief system
is the only way and the rest of us who choose not to accept your system
will continue to question and seek answers that make sense.
Kim P
Bent Stigsen
> Bent wrote:
>
>>I am getting the feeling that you would rather have a person suffer
>>with a mental illness, than to have them seek psychiatric help, just
>>because you consider them infidels.
>
> No, I expect people who do not know God to embrace psychiatry. It is
> the way of the world and it seems right unto man. I am simply trying to
> say that there is a better way. It is God's way.
I would still contend that they are not mutually exclusive, and that
it is *your* personal judgement that they are.
> There are other reasons for mental illness than meet the eye and that
> is known to science. There is "treatment" for people who see spirits
> (hallucinations) and suffer severe emotional torment and disjointed
> thinking and self-abusive behavior that does not involve psychiatric
> counseling and taking drugs.
>
> I do not advocate banning the only way the world has figured out how to
> deal with people's emotiona and mental problems. I advocate telling
> people that it wiser to go to God for help because He created human
> beings and knows how to help them live in a world filled with sin and
> suffering.
>
> I know that most people choose psychiatry rather than God.
> Using psychiatric drugs provides practically instant relief and is
> the only "medical" option that those who do not know God have.
*All* people can be in a situation where they need help with a mental
issue. Whether or not they are God-fairing has nothing to do with it.
> The world has its treatment for mental instability and God has His
> treatment: He says, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are
> heavy laden, and I will give you rest." Mat 11:28 The world's
> rest comes in the form of a prescription.
>
> There is rest for one's soul God's way and rest for one's soul the
> world's way. People must choose.
Well, there we have it again "Soul", not the same as the physical
brain, the organ (of flesh and blood), for the medical profession to
treat, notably the psychiatrists.
> I advocate God's way and this is to be expected because I am
> HIs follower. If you believe the world's way (psychiatry) is right
> then you are not being prevented from choosing that way.
I don't believe it is "right" as such, obviously the world would have
been better off if nobody had the use for it, but there is. People who
make use of Psychiatry don't deserve your judgement.
> But it is important to know that "There is a way which seemeth
> right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
> Proverbs 14:12
It doesn't say that if one take the opposite way or a way that
seemingly isn't right, that it will *not* end in death. That is *your*
assumption. People of all religions, have lived and died, just like
all the infidels.
> Thank you for taking the time to talk to me in a respectful manner.
> I know that speaking in absolute terms is offensive to people in this
> day and age (especially on the ARS forum) but that is the only way to
> accurately represent the God of the Bible. He is absolutely right and
> we are absolutely clueless about how to live without His help.
I assume "we" include yourself and hold that thought for a moment.
With the concept of God, *only* he knows the absolute Truth. I take it
that is why the Bible tells you not to judge, because you cant. Yet
you speak in absolute terms and claim to know what is God's way. I
just take it as your oppinion and have no reason to get offended, but
it might offend your God though.
/Bent
Lisa Ruby
yu really do not know how people are treated do you?
I know how Rita Hurst's husband was treated in Orange County, CA.
http://everett-hurst.memory-of.com/About.aspx
I know firsthand how horribly she has been harassed and how the
Coroner, Dr. Stern recanted her autopsy report--reminiscent of Dr. Wood
in the Lisa Mc Pherson case.
I know her husband was hit on the head with a blunt instrument and he
died of septic bedsores.
Lisa Ruby
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
Lisa Ruby
>Fundamentalists of any stripe are dangerous because they can only see
>the world as black and white - good and evil - nothing in this world is
>absolute good or absolute evil - the world is much more complex and >much more interesting than that. Instead of being afraid of everything >that does not fit in your wee small bax - get a bigger box.
Christians are dangerous. This is exactly what the New World Order
network wants people to think. They are so fortunate to have so many
critics on ARS promote their views.
Lisa Ruby
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
Lisa Ruby
>Therein lies the problem - you remain >insistant that your belief system
>is the only way and the rest of us who >choose not to accept your system
>will continue to question and seek >answers that make sense.
Actually, I have upset the pro-New World Order status quo that ARS has
enjoyed for so many years.
Posts that vilify the God of the Bible serve the purposes of the New
World Order, not people who need to learn about the dangers of
Scientology.
Lisa Ruby
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
Lisa Ruby
>Mental illnesses are real - and can be treated - sometimes with drugs
>which address the imbalances in brain chemistry.
We are well aware that you advocate psychiatry and advise against
having anything to do with God as He has revealed Himself in the Bible
or dealing with demonic affliction His way.
You have made yourself perfectly clear.
However, the brain and the mind are not the same thing. You cannot have
a mind without a brain but even so, a brain is tangible and the mind is
not.
The mind is not separate from a person's soul and spirit. It is not a
physical organ that can be isolated and treated with medication without
addressing the other factors that cause it to function properly.
When a person is being afflicted on a spiritual level, his mind will be
affected. That is why one needs to acknowledge God because Jesus came
to heal the brokenhearted:
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed
me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the
brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of
the prison to them that are bound; Isaiah 61:1
Lisa Ruby
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
Lisa Ruby
>Interesting. I would also add that Christ's teachings of forgiveness work
>very well at resolving mental problems, anger, resentment and more.
This is a very good point. Thanks for bringing it up.
Lisa Ruby
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
Lisa Ruby
>think these issues need to be talked about and examined rationally. Of
>course, that excludes Scientology from any debate by definition.
Scientology's founder made it clear where he stood on the subject of
Euthanasia. Hubbard was for it and so is his organization.
Lisa Ruby
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
Kim Palmer
prove that last point with verifiable statistics and evidnece not
some hearsay crap spouted by who knows who. NOt to mention that
scientology is not the big bad boogey monster you think it is.
The whole idea is just fantasms put out by people like you to try and
frighten people into buying into your loco fantasies about some
non-existant new world order.
Kim P
Kim Palmer
who's god? yours? billy76 graham's? the pope's? everyone seems to spout
off about god one way or another yet not one person can prove
empiracally that their way is THE ONE AND ONLY way. everyone claims
it so who the hell are you to say everyone but you is wrong?
> I advocate God's way and this is to be expected because I am
> HIs follower. If you believe the world's way (psychiatry) is right
> then you are not being prevented from choosing that way.
since medicine is also not in the bible to eshew all medicinal
approaches to healing or only the ones you do not agree with?
Psychiatry is not only legitimate medicine it is extremely helpful to
many millions of people world wide. To claim it is merely of the world
and dismiss it as useless because it is not your god's way is arrogant.
> But it is important to know that "There is a way which seemeth
> right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
> Proverbs 14:12
>
> Thank you for taking the time to talk to me in a respectful manner.
> I know that speaking in absolute terms is offensive to people in this
> day and age (especially on the ARS forum) but that is the only way to
> accurately represent the God of the Bible. He is absolutely right and
> we are absolutely clueless about how to live without His help.
>
bible this and bible that - which version? who translated it? when? how?
how do you know that this one translation is better than another? how do
you know it is even close to what was originally written? what if the
entire translation is wrong? Relying solely on the bible to prove your
point does not prove your point - it merely proves you can quote the
bible ( no big deal anyone who can use a concordance can do the same thing).
Kim P
>
> Lisa Ruby
> http://www.liberytothecaptives.net
>
Kim Palmer
idiot - I said fu8ndamentalists =- there is a difference - I know many
many good christian people who are not fundamentalist and who are doing
wonderful things in the world for people in great need - they are not
fundamentalists at all and work quietly and contentedly doing what they
do without waiting for pats on the back or jamming their beliefs down
everyone else's throats.
BIG difference - fundamentalists of any stripe are dangerous - look what
happened on 9/11 - that is fundamentalism gone wrong - so-called
christian fundamentalists are not even close to being christian.
get a clue or buy one if you have to there is a difference - I suggest
you read about it some more.
Kim P
Kim Palmer
BULL shit - you are nothing more than just another fundie who thinks
they have ALL the answers to ALL the questions - trying to force some
tie in with the schiavo case and scientology and when that was shot down
attempting to tie everything else into a non existant conspiracy of some
mythological new world order. This obsession is yours not mine - the
truth is there is no such thing and no amount of anecdotal evidence
proves anything
Kim P
Lisa Ruby
>BULL shit - you are nothing more than just another fundie who thinks
>they have ALL the answers to ALL the questions - trying to force some
>tie in with the schiavo case and scientology and when that was shot >down attempting to tie everything else into a non existant conspiracy of >some mythological new world order
Scientology is not happy about that exposure.
It is so interesting that the movie, Million Dollar Baby (starring
Scientology Hilary Swank and written by Scientologist Paul Haggis) came
out just a few months before Terri Schiavo--who needed nothing more
than a feeding tube because her hubby refused to permit nurses to feed
her by spoon-- was "mercifully killed" by the court order of a judge
who has a Scientologist campaign manager.
Lisa Ruby
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
Lisa Ruby
>idiot - I said fu8ndamentalists =- there is a difference - I know many
>many good christian people who are not fundamentalist and who are >doing wonderful things in the world for people in great need - they are not
>fundamentalists at all and work quietly and contentedly doing what they
>do without waiting for pats on the back or jamming their beliefs down
>everyone else's throats.
Oh, I understand. The "good Christian people" that you are so approving
of are actually ecumenists. Their ecumenical endeavors are no threat to
the New World Order system. In fact, they are quietly undergirding it.
Lisa Ruby
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
Lisa Ruby
>prove that last point with verifiable >statistics and evidnece not
>some hearsay crap spouted by who >knows who.
Hubbard did not want "abberrated" people to have civil rights:
"Perhaps at some distant date only the unaberrated person will be
granted civil rights before law. Perhaps the goal will be reached at
some future time when only the unaberrated person can attain to and
benefit from citizenship. These are desirable goals..." Dianetics; the
Modern Science of Mental Health, by L. Ron Hubbard (1987 edition,
p.534)
Judge Greer complied with Hubbard's goal. See:
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net/judge_greer_violations_statutes.html
:
Lisa Ruby
>prove that last point
L. Ron Hubbard wrote about organisms (people) needing to win. If they
do not win, he believed they would move in the direction of loss
[death]:
The goal is to win. When one has lost too much and too many times, the
possibility of winning seems to remote to try. And it loses. It becomes
so accustomed to loss that it begins to concentrate on loss instead of
forward advance.
(Self Analysis by L. Ron Hubbard pg. 41)
Scientology, which has an integral role in the New World Order network,
believes that able producers should not mix with the disabled (which
they classify as nonproducers.) They believe that contrasurvival
entities (disabled and terminally ill people) should be destroyed:
An individual, family, a group best survives, of course, when
prosurvival entities are in proximity and available and when
contrasurvival entities are absent. The struggle of life could be said
to be the procurement of prosurvival factors and the annihilation,
destruction, banishment of contrasurvival factors.
(Self Analysis by L. Ron Hubbard pgs. 176-177)
Michael Schiavo and Judge Greer have been pursuing the "banish, destroy
and annihilate the contrasurvival people" Scientology ideology for many
years.
Michael has banished Terri from society by forcing her to live in
solitary confinement in a hospice room for five years.
Judge Greer has ordered Terri's destruction on at least two occasions.
Greer has also agreed to allow Michael Schiavo to annihilate her
remains by immediate cremation.
Death by Dehydration: Terri's Wish or Hubbard's Hurrah?
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net/terris_wish_or_hubbards_hurrah.html
Lisa Ruby
>prove that last point
Scientologists believe that people who cannot be raised above a 2.0
level on L. Ron Hubbard's tone scale have an urge to die.
Hubbard did not approve of societies with laws against euthanasia:
Society, the bulk of which is bent upon survival, fails or refuses to
recognize death or the urge of organisms toward it. Society passes laws
against murder and suicide. Society provides hospitals. Society carries
such people [the disabled] on its back. And society will not hear of
euthanasia or "mercy killing." (Self Analysis by L. Ron Hubbard; pg.
28)
Lisa Ruby
>The pagan Roman rulers were also spiritually wicked. Am I correct?
Yes, spiritual wickedness works through people too.
Lisa Ruby
>who has a Scientologist campaign manager.
Judge Greer's Scientologist Campaign Manager
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net/greer_scientologist_manager.html
pwalt...@yahoo.com
over 300 mental illnesses all voted in to it by psychiatrists at their
conventions. They each have a number just pick one and lable the
patient with it and blamo you can now cash in on their insurance
policy. Funny thing is that each and every one is only resolved with a
mind altering drug. Of course when you give them the drug that even
proves it further, cha ching, chu ching. Nice scam pschiatrists have
going.
Pwalt
Orkeltatte aka Ulf Brettstam
Eldonbraun wrote:
> Lisa Ruby wrote:
> > Ulf wrote:
> >
> > >If this is correct - it would be highly unprofessional IMO.
> >
> > I agree.
> >
> > >Also unethical with regard to the Hippocratic oath "non nocere" - never
> > >harm!
> >
> > I am sorry to say that in our country, the Hippocratic oath has become
> > to many (but not all) doctors a mere tradition. Putting non-terminal
> > elderly people to death is becoming quietly required in many hospitals
> > and nursing homes...especially in Orange County California and other
> > Scientology strongholds.
> This is a sensitive issue called euthanasia, and one that really needs
> to be debated. Holland (and I suppose Sweden but I'm not sure) allows
> doctors to "pull the plug" when a person's condition is deemed
> hopeless-- but it requires a thorough review by a panel of doctors.
We debate euthanasia from time to time. We have a professor in
practical philosophy that argues from a utilitaristic point of view on
this topic and he always succed to stir things up. Several collegues
writes sharp answers and to my knowledge we have a consensus against
euthanasia.
IMO we, humans, doesn´t have the right to end someones life at any
time no matter what. To me this is a very critical moral and ethical
line that must never be crossed unless we can bring people back to life
again.
On the other hand we shall not keep a body alive with machines either ,
if the body can´t survive of its own so be it. If I am correctly
informed on the Terry Schiavo case , Terry was capable but needed to be
fed. To deny her food , is in my opinion murder. If she needed a
respirator and the brain was dead , then she was dead, if you get my
drift.
> I've talked to doctors in the US who've said that they really hate to
> do what they are legally REQUIRED to do in order to keep people alive
> when they are obviously ready to die-- jamming respirators down their
> throats, IVs and all that. Really gruesome stuff. This varies by state,
> since the US is made up of 50 different countries where medicine is
> concerned. Same goes for education.
>
> Modern medical science can certainly keep people alive for a long time
> after they're brain dead and non-functional. It's often painful,
> inhumane and very expensive, taking resources that could be better used
> in pediatrics and education to raise a healthier crop of next
> generation human beings.
> I don't doubt that abuses exist in the other direction, Lisa, but I do
> think these issues need to be talked about and examined rationally. Of
> course, that excludes Scientology from any debate by definition.
> >
> >
> > Lisa Ruby
> > http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
P.S. Lisa - I think Voltaire had issues mostly with the priests and men
of religion and everybody else telling us how to live our lives.
Ulf Brettstam
Hephaestus
they believe that the patient is using it as a crutch, which is a
breach of constitutional rights, and more importantly a misdiagnosis.
However there are psychiatrists who believe in god, but they are in the
minority, psychiatric help isn't perfect, but then again neither is the
Christian religion, as a whole, I mean, and I am much less offended by
the term fundamentalist than ultra-religous, fundamentalists are a
specific group of people, but you can use ultra-religous on anything
you want, it is far too broad a term. And before I respond to Lisa
Ruby's posts I wish to ask, what is the New World Order network? I've
not heard of it.
Larry T.
news:1129447152....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Lisa Fuby.
--
Larry
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeoqz2m/scientology/
Lisa Ruby
>And before responding to Lisa Ruby's posts I wish to ask,
>what is the New World Order network?
I am referring to globalization. I refer to it as the New World Order
network because of the the incredible amount of cooperation that is
required to bring it about. Globalization requires "networks
of activity, interaction and power."
The following excerpt is quoted from:
http://www.polity.co.uk/global/executiv.htm
I purposely chose a site that defines globalism without making
applications. You can find many sites where others share their own
understanding about how globalism is impacting their lives.
* Globalization can usefully be conceived as a process (or set of
processes) which embodies a transformation in the spatial organization
of social relations and transactions, generating transcontinental or
interregional flows and networks of activity, interaction and power.
* It is characterized by four types of change:
- First, it involves a stretching of social, political and
economic activities across political frontiers, regions and continents.
- Second, it suggests the intensification, or the growing
magnitude, of interconnectedness and flows of trade, investment,
finance, migration, culture, etc.
- Third, the growing extensity and intensity of global
interconnectedness can be linked to a speeding up of global
interactions and processes, as the evolution of world-wide systems of
transport and communication increases the velocity of the diffusion of
ideas, goods, information, capital, and people.
- Fourth, the growing extensity, intensity and velocity of global
interactions can be associated with their deepening impact such that
the effects of distant events can be highly significant elsewhere and
even the most local developments may come to have enormous global
consequences. In this sense, the boundaries between domestic matters
and global affairs can become increasingly blurred.
In sum, globalization can be thought of as the widening, intensifying,
speeding up, and growing impact of world-wide interconnectedness. By
conceiving of globalization in this way, it becomes possible to map
empirically patterns of world-wide links and relations across all key
domains of human activity, from the military to the cultural. end quote
Globalism is a huge subject but it is important to point out that it
includes the restructuring of power:
Globalization concerns the expanding scale on which power is organized
and exercised, that is, the extensive spatial reach of networks and
circuits of power. Indeed, power is a fundamental attribute of
globalization. In an increasingly interconnected global system, the
exercise of power through the decisions, actions, or inactions, of
agencies on one continent can have significant consequences for
nations, communities and households on other continents. Power
relations are deeply inscribed in the very process of globlization. In
fact, the stretching of power relations means that sites of power and
the exercise of power become increasingly distant from the subjects or
locales which experience their consequences. In this regard,
globalization involves the structuring and restructuring of power
relations at a distance. Patterns of global stratification mediate
access to sites of power, while the consequences of globalization are
unevenly experienced. end quote
Lisa Ruby
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
Eldonbraun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo
The courts consistently found that Schiavo was PVS (in a persistent
vegetative state) and had made credible statements that she would not
want to be kept alive on a machine.
When they did an autopsy, they found that there was severe damage, and
only about half of her brain was left. So there were a lot of
professonal opinions and many legal actions involved in that decision.
Lisa Ruby
too.
Rita Hurst revealed on her website that her husband, Everett Hurst, "
had been given fatal bedsores stage 4, and that it had been allowed
for 3 months to eat away inside the buttocks, rotting out his flesh
with infection, causing the bone to protrude outward from a massive
hole, due to lieing in feces and urine day and night."
"The neglect then turned to a forced blunt injury to the forehead with
severe bleeding inside the skull. The nursing home staff waited till
Everett was hours from death to send him to a hospital
clearly which was elder abuse and mal practice. This would now point
to a Homicide Death. A Cover Up was in effect." [LIsa's note: This
reminds me of what happened to Lisa McPherson!]
"Everett was never given any treatment from Dr. Dang for the fatal
infections running rampant inside the
blood stream, and it wasn't reported to the Health Dept. He was left to
die in those last 24 agonizing hours. Torture and pain beyound belief
!!! Why? How could they do this? How could anyone allow this to
happen? But they did !!!"
At this time Rita is under the impression that the funeral home in El
Paso Texas is trying to have a judge give an unlawful court order to
have Everett's body disposed of! They are doing things behind Rita's
back and it certainly appears to me that they are trying sabatage her
case against Orange County.
No judge has the authority to authorize the destruction of evidence for
Rita's court case. Not even judges who are being ordered around by
Orange County officials! You do know who controls Orange County,
California
don't you? Scientology controls Orange County.
Everett Hurst's body is being held as evidence per Rita Hurst's legal
authority over it and they have NO LEGAL RIGHT to dispose of his body.
The stress that has been placed on Rita Hurst is unconscionable. Simply
because she did not look the other way and instead, holding the people
involved accountable, they are retaliating in ways that remind me of
the way Scientology fair games people. I know because I visited her and
observed what was going on.
Someone in the nursing home hit Rita's husband on the head on an occult
date and had him die on April fifth, the number of death. (Thirteen is
the number of death too, but a particular kind of death: a twisted,
perverted death). The people who did this marked their stuff rather
boldly.
Rita has been denied her husband's retirement benefits and social
security even though he worked for the county for many years! I
guarantee you that is not legal, but they are getting away with it
because Rita did not keep quiet about what was done to her husband.
We are doing whatever we can to help her. If you can help us help her
we would be very relieved. We are not well off--in fact we are under
financial duress ourselves --but we know God wants us to help her. Rita
needs a car as her little three-cylinder car has a broken axle and
close to 300,000 miles. It is incredible that it has held together this
long. It really needs replacing. I know because I rode in it during the
time I visted her in June of this year.
There are many othes out there like Rita. So many have had their loved
ones killed in hospitals and nursing homes. Please pray for Rita and
others who have suffered in the same way.
Lisa Ruby
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net
Lisa Ruby
>The courts consistently found that Schiavo was PVS (in a persistent
>vegetative state) and had made credible statements that she would not
>want to be kept alive on a machine.
Greer did not follow the law or judicial canons but he did rule the way
you said. He kept something working but it was not Florida law.
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net/judge_greer_violations_statutes.html
Orkeltatte aka Ulf Brettstam
PVS according to Wikipedia ( I haven´t heard of this phrase before)
requires cortical death and if this was the case with Schiavo - then I
would say she was braindead - dead already and hence the decision of
withdrawing the feeding tube morally and ethically correct. Without a
cortex - there are no human, no conscience.
Lisa Ruby
>PVS according to Wikipedia ( I haven´t heard of this phrase before)
>requires cortical death and if this was the case with Schiavo - then I
>would say she was braindead - dead already and hence the decision of
>withdrawing the feeding tube morally and ethically correct. Without a
>cortex - there are no human, no conscience.
Yes, but can people who REALLY don't have a cortex carry out
instructions? Can they passionately and forthrightly communicate their
desire to live?
Terri did both.
See:
http://libertytothecaptives.net/terri_schiavo_cognitively_able.html
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net/barbara_weller_declaration.html
See
Kim Palmer
This is some of the autopsy findings which show how severely damaged
the brain was. It was also determined that she was blind - PVS is
state from which there is no recovery - Micheal Schiavo ( as is
consistantly forgotten by all those who crawled out of the woodwork)
spent two years seeking every available therapy for his wife - nothing
worked and every specialist consulted said the same thing - there is
nothing to be done - she is effectively dead - the person who was is no
more and never will be again and no amount of therapy would ever change
that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo#Autopsy
"Examination of Terri’s nervous system revealed extensive injury. The
brain itself weighed 615 grams, only half the weight expected for a
female of her age, height, and weight.
Microscopic examination revealed extensive damage to numerous brain
regions, including the cortex, the thalami, the basal nuclei, the
hippocampus, the cerebellum, and the midbrain. The neuropathologic
changes in her brain were precisely of the type seen in patients who
enter a PVS following cardiac arrest. Throughout the cerebral cortex,
the large pyramidal neurons that comprise some 70% of cortical
cells—critical to the functioning of the cortex—were completely lost.
The pattern of damage to the cortex, with injury tending to worsen from
the front of the cortex to the back, is also typical. There was marked
damage to important relay circuits deep in the brain (the
thalami)—another common pathologic hallmark of PVS. The damage was, in
the words of Thogmartin, "irreversible, and no amount of therapy or
treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons."
Kim P
Constitutional Rights
news:1129453641.8...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Hephaestrus wrote:
>
> >And before responding to Lisa Ruby's posts I wish to ask,
> >what is the New World Order network?
>
> I am referring to globalization. I refer to it as the New World Order
> network because of the the incredible amount of cooperation that is
> required to bring it about. Globalization requires "networks
> of activity, interaction and power."
>
> The following excerpt is quoted from:
> http://www.polity.co.uk/global/executiv.htm
>
> I purposely chose a site that defines globalism without making
> applications. You can find many sites where others share their own
> understanding about how globalism is impacting their lives.
>
> * Globalization can usefully be conceived as a process (or set of
> processes) which embodies a transformation in the spatial organization
> of social relations and transactions, generating transcontinental or
> interregional flows and networks of activity, interaction and power.
Globalization is causing a hell of a lot of good jobs on the US to be lost.
If this continues, it could cause the collapse of the US government along
with the US dollar.
The first step to help repair America is to slowly and nicely put up tariffs
on imports.
Lisa Ruby
>Micheal Schiavo ( as is consistantly forgotten by all >those who crawled out of the woodwork)
>spent two years seeking every available therapy for >his wife - nothing worked and every specialist >consulted said the same thing - there is nothing to be >done - she is effectively dead - the person who was >is no more and never will be again and no amount of >therapy would ever change tat.
Michael Schiavo made it clear that he considered
Terri to be dead on February 25, 1990--the day he said he discovered
her face down on the floor (in another deposition he said he found her
on her back). So the therapy she received was done during the time
Michael considered her to be already dead.
Maybe the fact that Michael considered Terri to be already dead was the
reason he refused to have her followed up after she endured
experiemental surgery--without the court's permission of course.
See: Scientology Treats Terri as if She is Already
Dead\http://www.libertytothecaptives.net/scientology_treats_terri_schindler_schiavo_as_dead.html
and
Michael Marked Terri's Grave With Scientology Death Doctrine
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net/terris_grave_scn_doctrine.html
Lisa Ruby
>If this continues, it could cause the collapse of the US government along
>with the US dollar.
Good point. That is one of the intents of globalization. The present
form of government along with the economy such a government enjoys, has
got to go. And it IS going...in stages. Watch the disasters and
terrorist attacks. Then watch our government change some more.
Lisa Ruby
Lisa Ruby
>every specialist consulted said the same thing - there is
>nothing to be done
Dr. Hammesfahr, who Judge Greer and company cannot stand, was a
specialist who examined Terri and did not go along with the pack.
He not only revealed that Terri never had a heart attack or a cardiac
arrest, he also pointed out that she swallowed her own saliva, which is
one of the hardest things to swallow. (Terri did not drool.)
Hammesfahr was also convinced that Terri could benefit from
treatment--which he offerred for free. (Of course Greer refused to
allow Terri to be treated by Hammesfahr. That would throw a monkey
wrench into the whole plan.)
See: The Complete Report of Dr. William Hammesfahr
Lisa Ruby
>The courts consistently found that Schiavo was PVS (in a persistent
>vegetative state) and had made credible statements that she would not
>want to be kept alive on a machine
If the courts found that Terri Schiavo did not want to be "kept alive
on a machine" (ie a feeding tube) then why did Judge Greer issue an
illegal court order that nutrition and hydration (regular food and
water) be withheld from her?
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net/terri_died_illegal_court_order.html
Lisa Ruby
found her face down (or face up) on the floor clutching her neck
revealed that she had a broken pelvis, broken femur, broken ribs,
broken knees and broken ankles!
See:http://www.libertytothecaptives.net/terri_schiavo_bone_scan.html
Of course Terri was never treated for these injuries. Judge Greer
considered this matter to be interesting, but not relevant to the case.
And of course Bernie McCabe would not investigate this matter.
Orkeltatte aka Ulf Brettstam
This examination shows evidence of cortical function and voluntary
actions from Terry, hence she was not braindead.
Ulf Brettstam
smither...@yahoo.com
as to reference William Hammesfahr.
There is a HUGE difference between being able to swallow saliva
and being able to swallow enough to sustain life without a feeding
tube.
Hammesfahr was so ignorant of her clinical history he didn't know
she had failed at least 3 "gold standard" barium swallow tests.
His statement that "It is unlikely that she currently needs the feeding
tube" from your link below is directly contradicted by the autopsy
report (page 34):
"3. Could Mrs. Schiavo eat by mouth?
The neuropathologic findings, oropharyngeal anatomic findings, and
medical
records clearly indicate that Mrs. Schiavo would not have been able to
consume
sustenance safely and/or in sufficient quantity by mouth."
The above doesn't even consider Hammesfahr's repeated ethical
violations (he enjoys an extensive history with the state medical
board), or most disturbingly, his choice to misrepresent himself as a
Nobel Prize nominee, a claim he uses to promote his unproven clinical
techniques:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Hammesfahr
William Hammesfahr is clearly NO friend of the disabled,
nor is anyone who chooses to endorse him.
Garry Scarff transforms Usenet in Spamnet, Lienet, Threatnet, and Abusenet
Barbara Schwanz wrote:
> > there is no such thing as demon possession - anymore than there is such a thing as > a bt or an ot - simply a fantasm nothing more
>
> Funny...this coming from the wife of a Christian pastor. The New
> Testament testifies to demonic possession....obviously, you haven't
> done much Bible study as a pastor's wife.
Neither I, the Anonymous Informer nor Barbara Schwarz did make that
foregoing postings, forger Garry Scarff did. She is and did nothing
what he and his friends lie she is or did. They fabricate maliciously.
Reading Scafff's forgeries and accusations also raise serious questions
about his state of mind.
He also forges and maliciously defames Marty Rathbun or Mark de
Rothschild. He lies that Marty Rathbun does not exist, despite the RTC
has a photo of him on their website.
Garry Scarff stole also the ID "Analytical Publication" from another
active poster. Garry can post with "Un-analytical Garry" or "Forger
Garry" or whatever, but not with the author name of another poster.
That name is protected.
Disturbed Gerald Lynn Scarff also defames and stalks anti-suicide
encouragement activist Patrick Michael Sullivan.
ATTENTION: GARRY SCARFF IS A FORGER, THREAT MAKER, HARASSER, STALKER,
DEFAMER AND LIAR. BARBARA SCHWARZ ISN'T COMMITTING ANY CRIMES.
He asked reader to file false complaints about Barbara Schwarz to her
library in his hundreds if not thousand of forgings and he uses her
name or posting IDs to spam that library. You should contact
Earthlink.net, Scarff's ISP and demand from him to cancel the forger
Scarff's account. The CEO of Earthlink is Charles "Garry" (no joke)
Betty, and the email address is:ab...@abuse.earthlink.net. An ISP who
allows the kind of crimes, terror and abuse that Scarff is making on a
daily basis should be barred from the net. Also the postings that he
makes under his own name or name of other people he also forges, are
serious violation of libel and defamation laws and criminal laws. He
and his suppporting friends might be also guilty of violation of the
Rico Act.
Search results for Garry Scarff's ISP: 207.69.138.199
EarthLink, Inc. EARTHLINK2000-D (NET-207-69-0-0-1) 207.69.0.0 -
207.69.255.255 Norman Broadbent Int, INC MINDSPRING-DEDA-8AC0
(NET-207-69-138-192-1) 207.69.138.192 - 207.69.138.207
http://cybercrimes.net/99MSCCC/MSCCC/Article6/6.01.1.html
http://www.lectlaw.com/def/f056.htm
http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/f1/forg-law.asp
Tell his ISP Earthlink, his newsreader, and appropriate authorities as
the LAPD and the FBI Cyber crime fighting unit that Scarff commits
felonies.
Before Barbara Schwarz became Garry Scarff's favorite stalker target,
he committed crimes against others.
In testimony of November 22, 1994, webbed on numerous websites, Garry
Scarff himself admitted that he kidnapped a student from Oregon to
Bellevue Washington;
that he was involved in conspiracy to commit murder;
that he was involved with at least two deprogrammings; (At least one
involved also sexual abuse.)
that he posed as candidate for LAPD employment; (Candidate for lifelong
incarceration is more likely if you as me.)
that he worked for the Cult Awareness Network, (CAN) who was accused of
violating the RICO ACT;
that he lied that Patricial Ryan was a prostitute;
that he wrote derogatory letter to the director of a catholic
archdiocese.
---------------------------------
An affidavit by Garry Scarff of April 4, 1994, posted by Modemac also
reveals
that Scarff was part of a murder conspiracy (or was his plan only if
you ask me);
that he made death threats;
that he harassed people over the phone;
and that he plead the Fifth regarding his crime against a Portland
Bank.
-----------------------
I just found out that the Portland Police has many records on Garry
Lynn Scarff, e.g. file no: 92-95450, 92-81423, 92-41687 and 92-1822,
and they are looking for more. Scarff needs to be locked up without
Internet access to end his crime sprees.
--------------------
Somebody who speaks German translated that for me. It says that Garry
Scarff posed before a mass of people as "last survivor of Guyana".
http://www.menschenrechtsbuero.de/html/teil4.htm
Zur Erinnerung: Auch dem angeblichen Ex-Scientologen und "Insider"
Garry Scarff und seinen Kollegen standen "vor Lachen die Tränen in den
Augen", wie er freimütig vor Gericht bekannte, nachdem er sich vorher
der staunenden Menge als "letzter Überlebender von Guyana" offeriert
hatte.
----------------
In a transcript of the case Religious Technology Center v. H. Keith
Henson of May 11, 1998, case C-96-20271 on line 14-15 is a sentence
about Scarff that reveals his missing credibilty:
"...Scarff testified about that so that misrepresents what's in that
record".
----------------
Scarff was also the person who brought up that the dog of judge
Swearinger was killed. My question is: Did Scarff kill that dog?
-----------------------
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.religion.scientology/msg/9d35a98cef4da313?dmode=source&hl=en
This is the case were Garry Scarff lied that he is a Jew to extort
money from the Uni of California by playing the race card against his
female muslim boss. Scarff is as little Jewish as Gestapo was.
PDF] NEW LITIGATION AND ARBITRATION PROCEEDINGS May 2001 Plaintiff ...
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Scarff, Garry. (counselor). UCLA. Wrongful termination, retaliation,
battery,.
intentional infliction of emotional distress ...
www.universityofcalifornia.edu/ regents/regmeet/may01/701att.pdf -
Similar pages
###############
And I found that one:
Garry Scarff reported that he signed some agreements with Scientology
following meetings with attorney Elliott Abelson and OSA Chief Mike
Rinder. Here he claimed following, which also supports that Scarff's
lies about Scientologists alleged murder and poison plans and putting
him up to commit crimes were completely fabrications:
"No attempts were made to intimidate & browbeat me into signing false
declarations nor was I threatened. I asked for Mike Rinder to be
present for one of our discussions, as Elliot had not planned on him
being there & Mike Rinder complied. Our conversations were
straight-forward & professional. I respect him for that as I surely
have caused a lot of strife & anger in the Church.
"Am I again a member of the Church of Scientology? No. Because I was
never a member of the Church of Scientology, never on staff of the
Church of Scientology, and took only 2 introductory courses at the
Mission of Davis in Portland, Oregon. Much of what is in my 17-day
deposition in the Fishman-Geertz case are lies."
He is a liar and he is not cured, police failed to arrest him and file
charges against him, and now Barbara Schwarz is his current target of
criminal activities.
Message-ID: <19970713112800.HAA09...@ladder02.news.aol.com>
People Scarff hangs with are on this site:
http://www.religiousfreedomwatch.org/extremists/index.html