Scientology is like Jonestown in slow motion
Fredric L. Rice
Like Jonestown in slow motion
Caroline Fraser, author of "God's Perfect Child," talks about the
casualties of Christian Science's belief in the power of prayer and the
media's soft spot for the church.
By Laura Miller
www.salon.com
September 2, 1999
Web posted at: 5:31 p.m. EDT (2131 GMT)
(SALON) -- Caroline Fraser's "God's Perfect Child" tells the remarkable,
sometimes outrageous story of the Christian Science Church's journey from
suspect sect to squeaky-clean personification of mid-century American
religious do-it-yourself-ism to faltering faith whose aging leaders would
like to tap into the current mania for spiritual healing. Her account is an
enjoyably dishy story of mismanaged funds, trendy celebrity adherents and
internecine warfare, but it has a darker side: the still-mounting body
count the church has left in its wake, children who have died as a result
of the faith's prohibition against the use of medical care.
Salon Books interviewed Fraser, who lives in Santa Fe, N.M., via e-mail.
Your book describes many past examples of how the Christian Science Church
energetically attempted to squelch the publication, dissemination and sale
of books that are unflattering to Mary Baker Eddy or the church itself.
Were you or "God's Perfect Child" the object of similar tactics?
So far, there's been little interference with my book coming from the
church. I did hear recently that an editor at the Christian Science Monitor
(whom I've never met) approached one of my publisher's representatives at a
book fair and informed her that I was "troubled." This is a regrettably
common ploy: A previous manager of the church's Committee on Publication
(its office of propaganda and press relations) once told a journalist that
Tom Simmons, author of a memoir about his Christian Science childhood ("The
Unseen Shore"), was an unreliable source on the religion because his life
was "falling apart."
The Committee on Publication called my editor at the Atlantic Monthly just
before my article about Christian Science was published in 1995, expressing
various concerns, and Scientists sent outraged letters after it appeared,
many of them detailing healings they'd experienced and one of them going so
far as to suggest that I'd nailed the last nails in Christ's hands.
Although I'm grateful that the Christian Science Church is not as
aggressive in policing its reputation as, say, the Church of Scientology,
Christian Scientists, particularly those who work for the Mother Church
(headquarters of the movement), are masters of the passive-aggressive
style, and I'm sure I haven't heard the last from them.
It also sounds like the church is disabled enough by its recent decline in
fortune and membership that it can't really mount the sort of intensive
campaign against your book that it did against others several decades ago.
Did anyone in your family or personal life who is also a church member
attempt to dissuade you from writing either the Atlantic article or this
book?
I think it's true that the church has far less influence now over
publishers and editors than it did a few decades ago, in part because of
the decline of the Monitor and in part because the cachet of Christian
Science has largely vanished. Oddly, however, the church continues to
retain significant political power. There are currently five members of the
U.S. House of Representatives who are practicing Scientists, and the church
has convinced Sens. Orrin Hatch and Ted Kennedy to fight for Medicare
coverage for Christian Science "nursing" services, which are essentially
religious.
Aside from the Committee on Publication guys, who certainly tried to
convince me not to write about Christian Science, no one in my own circle
of family or friends has. The only remaining Scientists in my family are my
parents; my brother and sister left the faith long ago, as I did. After the
Atlantic article, I heard that old friends and acquaintances from my Mercer
Island, Wash., church were disappointed by it, but you have to remember how
circumspect Scientists generally are; indeed, Mary Baker Eddy's Church
Manual forbids members of the church from "unauthorized debating" about the
religion. And Scientists believe that talking about illness or misfortune
of any kind makes it real, so they tend to be pretty close-mouthed about
the things that bother them. I got a letter from my longtime piano teacher,
for instance, which gently remonstrated with me, but, like most Scientists,
she attempted to persuade me to her point of view by telling me about the
healings she's experienced. Another woman from our church told my sister
that everyone there still loves me.
Next page | Is the "power of prayer" pure bunk?
September 2, 1999
Web posted at: 5:34 p.m. EDT (2134 GMT)
Like Jonestown in slow motion | page 1, 2, 3
It's striking that your own personal experience growing up in the church is
an important part of the beginning of the book, but that by the end the
book you're a more traditionally removed third-person narrator. I can't
help but be curious about your progression from youthful disillusionment to
the kind of sustained concern that it takes to write a book like "God's
Perfect Child." Can you tell me how you decided on this project and how
your feelings about the church may have changed in the writing of it?
The progression in my book from the first person to a wider angle parallels
my own progress, I think. As a child, my knowledge about Mary Baker Eddy
and the church as an institution was so severely limited that all I really
knew about them was what I read in "Science and Health" (Eddy's book) and
overheard in the church lobby. I distinctly remember, however, that one day
after Sunday school, my teacher took me aside and told me, apropos of
nothing, that Mrs. Eddy had never taken morphine and that I shouldn't
believe any rumors I might hear. (I now suspect that his remark was
inspired by Scribner's 1970 paperback reprinting of Edwin Franden Dakin's
critical biography of Eddy, which discusses her morphine use.) Of course,
the remark fascinated me, and I ran right out to the public library and
tried to find anything that might explain it. I failed then, but my
curiosity was reawakened in the early 1990s, long after I thought I'd left
Christian Science behind, when reports about dissension in the church began
appearing in the national press, in the New York Times, the Wall Street
Journal, on "60 Minutes." I was astonished to discover that my own personal
experience of a Sunday School classmate dying was not an isolated instance,
that Christian Science children were dying all over the country and their
parents were being prosecuted.
And the more I learned about the history of the church, its rigidity and
inflexibility, the more I began to discount the received wisdom it gives
out, particularly the argument that Christian Scientists, with their
healing "system," are giving their children "the best possible care."
They're not. If there's a villain in the book, it's the church itself, and
the people who unthinkingly tend and obey it, like bees with their queen.
On the other hand, I grew to admire the Christian Science dissidents who at
least think for themselves.
Another inspiration for taking on the project was the maddening phenomenon
of people like Larry Dossey and Herbert Benson rising up in the '90s and
simplistically touting the "power of prayer." Dossey and Benson, along with
others of their ilk, have embraced Christian Science while knowing next to
nothing about it, and their ignorance of the history of what they're
promoting could have real consequences in peoples' lives.
Your comments about Larry Dossey and Herbert Benson raise an interesting
point. Is your objection to the "power of prayer" philosophy that it
provides too much cover for the dangerous doctrines of the Christian
Scientists, or do you have larger objections to the very principles of that
movement? After all, not all of the power-of-prayer crowd advocate
renouncing standard medical care, and it seems like the peril in Christian
Science is its insistence that you can't use both.
My problem is not with prayer itself but with the marketing of prayer. It's
true that folks like Dossey, Benson and Andrew Weil commonly deliver
caveats suggesting that patients shouldn't throw out traditional medicine
(I think it's Dale Matthews, another power-of-prayer doc, who advises
"prayer and Prozac"). But their willingness to use their authority as
medical doctors to promote prayer as a form of treatment is troubling. So
is their uncritical acceptance of things like Christian Science (which
discourages the use of all what they call "materia medica," as many of
these doctors seem to have forgotten). Larry Dossey admiringly cites the
"research," if I can even call it that, of two Scientists in Oregon who
prayed over some petri dishes and were so disturbed by the Christian
Science Church's rejection of their "evidence" that they subsequently
killed themselves. The power-of-prayer movement is so amorphous -- driven
largely by bestselling self-improvement books -- that it's doubtful that it
has any well-defined principles, or standards, at all. I suspect that the
main goal of many of those involved is simply to make money.
I certainly don't mean to mock or belittle prayer. As I argue in the book,
it may have wondrous effects for many people, but it is intangible and
unquantifiable, so it doesn't lend itself to scientific study. Indeed, many
of the studies that have been done suggesting that there's a link between
prayer or church-going and improved health have been bankrolled by a single
organization, the Templeton Foundation, which is devoted to promoting
"spiritual information through science," a fact that calls into question
the objectivity of its findings. Fortunately, most religious people accept
medicine as a gift from God and reap the benefits of both realms.
Next page | Diane Sawyer defends Christian Science
September 2, 1999
Web posted at: 5:35 p.m. EDT (2135 GMT)
Like Jonestown in slow motion | page 1, 2, 3
The similarities between the histories of Christian Science and Scientology
are striking.
Yes, the parallels between Christian Science and Scientology are
fascinating. While the Christian Science Church was never as litigious as
the Church of Scientology, Christian Science was once terrifically
controversial, just as Scientology is today. Mary Baker Eddy was a
notorious figure, and she and her teachings were the target of contemptuous
books and articles by Mark Twain and others. A century ago, Christian
Science was as scandalous as Scientology is now, but, largely through the
influence of its newspaper, the Monitor, Scientists managed to calm
society's fears and grow ever more respectable. Christian Science also
managed to impress people with its own celebrities and millionaires: George
Getty, the founder of the Getty fortune, was a Scientist, as was Lady
Astor. As I discuss in the book, Christian Science became hugely popular in
Hollywood in the 1930s and '40s.
It strikes me that Scientology's reputation is now roughly at the juncture
where Christian Science found itself during the latter part of Eddy's
lifetime. It still remains troubling to the public, but it's successfully
legitimizing itself. A street in Hollywood has been renamed L. Ron Hubbard
Boulevard. And Scientology won its epic battle for tax-exempt status with
the IRS. So it's halfway to respectability, but it remains to be seen if
its celebrity associations with stars like John Travolta and Tom Cruise can
carry it further.
What about the child cases? They seem to me to be more damning to the
Christian Science Church than anything, really, that Scientology has done.
How do you think Christian Science's public image now stands as a result of
those hugely publicized cases?
Of course the child cases are damning, but you're so right that it's other
groups, including Scientology, that are seen as the real threats. A
prosecutor in California who handled one of the child cases told reporters
that Christian Science is like Jonestown in slow motion, and he was right.
But the American public is so conflicted about parental rights, the rights
of children and the issue of religious freedom that it tends to be queasy
about the spectacle of faith-healing parents on trial, particularly
Christian Scientists, who are usually white, middle- to upper-class and
prominent members of their communities with no prior criminal records.
Americans are squeamish about anything that seems to punish people for
their religious beliefs. Of course, I don't think these trials were about
the parents' First Amendment rights to religious freedom; I think they were
about the violation of their children's rights to life itself.
And the church has done everything it can, with some success, to reinforce
the notion that the parents (rather than the kids who lost their lives)
were the real victims, running full page ads in the Boston Globe during the
manslaughter trial of the Twitchells (for the death of their 2-year-old son
Robyn) announcing that prayer was being prosecuted in Boston. Just as
Congress has accepted the church's number of published testimonials as
scientific fact, so some journalists have accepted the church's argument
that its parents do the best they can for their children. Earlier this
month, for example, Diane Sawyer, on "20/20," introduced a segment on a
faith-healing sect in Oregon that, in the last 35 years, has buried 78
kids, many of whom would have lived with medical intervention. Sawyer
issued a specific apologia for Scientists, saying, "In serious situations,
many [faith healers], most notably Christian Scientists, will seek outside
help," an observation that isn't at all accurate but indicates how confused
journalists have become about Christian Science, largely because of
misinformation proceeding from the church.
Philip Zaleski's review of "God's Perfect Child" in the Aug. 22 New York
Times Book Review contains a line that I can imagine you found irksome:
"The Christian Science archives contain over 50,000 testimonials of
spiritual cures; horrific tales of child deaths cannot explain away these
apparent successes." This seems like a deliberate misreading of your book,
which does criticize the testimonials, but not on the grounds of the child
cases. Can you respond to that?
I was astonished at that sentence. To suggest that I was using details of
the suffering and deaths of Christian Science children to "explain away"
anything seems a perverse misrepresentation. But I'm almost more troubled
by the blithe acceptance of 50,000 Christian Science testimonies as
"apparent successes." Do sheer numbers imply moral authority or scientific
accuracy? If millions of people believe they've been abducted by aliens,
does that mean such abductions really happened? Zaleski also ignores my
analysis of the testimonies and the reasons why they're unreliable as
scientific evidence or even, in some instances, verifiable anecdotes.
Could you review, briefly, your arguments challenging the testimonials,
that is, the accounts of healings that the Christian Science Church uses to
bolster claims for the legitimacy of its treatment? Zaleski is not the
first to accept the church's statement that they've been "corroborated."
Christian Science testimonies that are published in the church periodicals
are "corroborated" (or "verified," in the church's words) only by three
other friends or family members (usually Scientists themselves) "who can
vouch for the integrity of the testifier or know of the healing." As
sociologists have noted, these testimonies are brief, anecdotal accounts,
often of "healings" that took place years, if not decades, ago. (And some
healings, significantly, are reported to have taken a long time, sometimes
years.) Many of the healings are of self-diagnosed conditions that
undoubtedly corrected themselves on their own (warts, bumps, scratches,
pains, minor burns, relationship problems, job problems, etc.). Some
contain allusions to diagnoses by medical professionals, but no medical or
hospital records, physicians' names or specific data accompany the
published testimonies, so it is impossible to verify them independently.
Some testimonies contain misleading or false information.
Moreover, and perhaps most damningly, the church keeps no records of the
deaths of Christian Scientists, children or adults, and it publishes no
testimonies about Christian Science failures (some of which are documented
in my book), so the church's loss rate is impossible to calculate. And it
has never allowed any independent researcher to study Christian Science.
So, from a scientific point of view, these anecdotal, self-selected and
self-reported accounts are meaningless. As I say in the book, they are
testimonies of faith, of religious belief. They are not evidence.
How would you prefer to see the illnesses of Christian Science children
handled? Would you favor government intervention, and to what degree?
What I'd like to see is the removal of religious exemption laws from all
state statutes. This special class of laws protecting faith-healers from
the consequences of their actions endangers children and seems to be a
clear violation of the First Amendment. I see no reason why a system
similar to those in place in Canada, England and other European countries
wouldn't work here. In those countries, parents are required to provide
their kids with routine medical care, and, from what I hear, doctors have
been quite flexible in working with parents to provide the least aggressive
or intrusive forms of care.
No one, including me, is arguing that Scientists should stop taking their
kids to Sunday school or teaching them about their religious heritage or
beliefs. They absolutely have a right to do that. But they don't have the
right to martyr their kids. The church's refusal to consider any kind of
compromise or to engage in discussion about the rights of their children
seems deeply unreasonable to me. I once asked a Christian Scientist who had
worked for the Committee on Publication why American Scientists are so
vehemently opposed to any system that would require medical care for
children. He said it was because Christian Science branch churches in
countries with such requirements had been weakened by them. His answer, and
the church's policies over the past century, indicate that Scientists value
the health of their church over the health of their children. In my view,
if Christian Scientists really want to practice the love that they preach,
they should reconsider their position on this.
Laura Miller is an editor of Salon.
Salon.com -- What's really going on in the world of technology? Know the
trends, read our technology section.
---
http://www.ElmerFudd.US/ http://www.rightard.org/ http://www.thedarkwind.org/
"We're going to sue your ass, AND your balls!" -- Scientology's leader
"Not every anti-gay Republican is a repressed homosexual" -- Al Franken
Barbara Schwarz
Fredric L. Rice wrote:
> http://www.cnn.com/books/news/9909/02/fraser.salon/index3.html
Your subject line is so stupid. I remember 25 years ago people already
wrote and said that
Jonestown could happen in SCN but they forgot that Scientology is all
about SURVIVAL and not death. Does the SCN book Science of Survival
ring a bell?
Barbara Schwarz
http://www.thunderstar.net/~Schwarz/
More about Dave Touretzky:
http://urlsnip.com/254524
http://urlsnip.com/402460
Other interesting websites:
http://www.religiousfreedomwatch.org/extremists/
http://www.alarmgermany.org/
http://bernie.cncfamily.com/sc/sitemap.htm
http://www.cchr.org
http://www.datafilter.com/mc
http://www.freespeechstore.com
roger gonnet
"Barbara Schwarz" <barbara...@gmail.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1133932182....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Fredric L. Rice wrote:
>> http://www.cnn.com/books/news/9909/02/fraser.salon/index3.html
>
> Your subject line is so stupid. I remember 25 years ago people already
> wrote and said that
Really? Count the corpses, including Hubbard, his wife, two of his seven kids,
and the hundreds remaining ones.
Scientology has most certainly ruined and destroyed thousands, and has killed
hundreds.
r
Tilman Hausherr
Rice) wrote:
>http://www.cnn.com/books/news/9909/02/fraser.salon/index3.html
>
>Like Jonestown in slow motion
I recommend everyone to buy and read Deborah Layton's book
"seductive poison". See my posting about some similarities between
scientology and jonestown.
I recently met her on her german book tour. Very interesting person.
Tilman
--
Tilman Hausherr [KoX, SP5.55] Entheta * Enturbulation * Entertainment
http://www.xenu.de
Resistance is futile. You will be enturbulated. Xenu always prevails.
Find broken links on your web site: http://home.snafu.de/tilman/xenulink.html
The Xenu bookstore: http://home.snafu.de/tilman/bookstore.html
Eru Ilúvatar
>> http://www.cnn.com/books/news/9909/02/fraser.salon/index3.html
>Your subject line is so stupid.
No, Barbara, his subject line gets right to the point. You just
don't like his subject line because it doesn't agree with your
insane world view. You obviously consider facts to be your
enemy.
Please seek professional help.
Buck Tooth
Lady
Lady, when you're with me I'm smiling
Give me all your love
Your hands build me up when I'm sinking
Touch me and my troubles all fade
Lady, from the moment I saw you
Standing all alone
You gave all the love that I needed
So shy, like a child who has grown
'Cause you're my lady of the morning
Love shines in your eyes
Sparkling, clear, and lovely
You're my lady
Lady, turns me on when I'm lonely
Show me all your charm
Evenings when you lay down beside me
Take me gently into your arms
Lady of the morning
Love shines in your eyes
Sparkling, clear, and lovely
You're my lady
Lady of the morning
Love shines in your eyes
Sparkling, clear, and lovely
You're my ... lady
Barbara Schwarz
Buck Tooth wrote:
> Eru Ilúvatar wrote:
> > Barbara Schwarz <barbara...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> http://www.cnn.com/books/news/9909/02/fraser.salon/index3.html
> >
> > >Your subject line is so stupid.
> >
> > No, Barbara, his subject line gets right to the point. You just
> > don't like his subject line because it doesn't agree with your
> > insane world view. You obviously consider facts to be your
> > enemy.
> >
> > Please seek professional help.
You need incarceration. You are a stalker, "Enu Vatar", who posts like
Valerie Emanuel.
>
> Lady
And that is a nice song, Buck Tooth. :)
Barbara Schwarz
http://www.thunderstar.net/~Schwarz/
More about Dave Touretzky:
http://urlsnip.com/254524
http://urlsnip.com/402460
Other interesting websites:
http://www.religiousfreedomwatch.org/extremists/
http://www.alarmgermany.org/
http://bernie.cncfamily.com/sc/sitemap.htm
http://www.cchr.org
http://www.datafilter.com/mc
http://www.freespeechstore.com
>
Barbara Schwarz
Tilman Hausherr wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 03:54:33 GMT, FR...@SkepticTank.ORG (Fredric L.
> Rice) wrote:
Tilman, when your German secret services don't order secretly poison in
the food or water of the Sea Org, there will be no dead people. And the
writer who you recommend has not the foggiest about SCN and neither do
you. I still wonder if you had to marry Ilse as an OPC cover. You need
a connection to SCN, so they fixed you up with somebody who briefly
scratched SCN as Ilse but as I know you, you will of course deny that.
Tilman Joerg Hausherr from Berlin, Germany (hired by Siemens and
married to Ilse Hruby-Plechl, a nurse) is an anti-religious harasser
and defamer. He is pro Eugenics, defends psychiatrists who sexually or
otherwise abused patients, is a German governmental agent and wants to
hurt the American tourism.
http://www.religiousfreedomwatch.org/extremists/hauser1.html
http://www.religiousfreedomwatch.org/whistle/cwletters/cw2.html
http://groups.google.com/group/de.soc.weltanschauung.scientology/msg/...
Tilman Hausherr posted approx. 24.000 aniti-religious hate messages on
Usenet and his thinking is compared to that of Hitler.
http://www.alarmgermany.org/tilman.htm
Tilman Hausherr is cold, cruel, fanatic and unprofessional
http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Tilman+Hausherr&btnG...
http://bernie.cncfamily.com/sc/sitemap.htm
About OPC agent Tilman Hausherr and his company Siemens which made and
delivered WMD to Saddam and covered it up:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.religion.scientology/msg/7d8f...
Barbara Schwarz
plethora
Barbara Schwarz wrote:
> Buck Tooth wrote:
> > > Please seek professional help.
>
> You need incarceration. You are a stalker, "Enu Vatar", who posts like
> Valerie Emanuel.
You are the one with the multiple arrests record. That's NOT stalking
you idiot. You aren't that important.
plethora
Barbara Schwarz wrote:
> Tilman Hausherr wrote:
>
> Tilman Joerg Hausherr from Berlin, Germany (hired by Siemens and
> married to Ilse Hruby-Plechl, a nurse) is an anti-religious harasser
> and defamer. He is pro Eugenics, defends psychiatrists who sexually or
> otherwise abused patients, is a German governmental agent and wants to
> hurt the American tourism.
>
posted by RFW has 20 points less IQ than a geranium.
"The United States Secret Service produced documents relating to
Plaintiff's [Schwarz] visit to Washington in April, 1986, her detention
for causing a disturbance at a restaurant, her arrest for unlawful
entry at the White House, and her evaluation at Saint Elizabeth's
Hospital. INTERPOL produced copies of telegrams from 1988 indicating
that German authorities sought assistance in locating Plaintiff, who
had disappeared and was described as "confused" at times. The Secret
Service records suggest that Plaintiff had come to the United States
from Germany to warn President Reagan of danger from the KGB and also
to find either her brother Frank (who had been kidnaped by the KGB) or
Frank E. Brown, described as the father of her brother Frank. "
Barbara Schwarz
> Barbara Schwarz wrote:
> > Buck Tooth wrote:
> > > > Please seek professional help.
> >
> > You need incarceration. You are a stalker, "Enu Vatar", who posts like
> > Valerie Emanuel.
>
> You are the one with the multiple arrests record.
These cases were dismissed. Do you know what dismissed means?
The Jews were also wrongfully arrested and later (those who survived
the Nazis) vindicated.
>That's NOT stalking
> you idiot. You aren't that important.
That's why you and that Enu idiot stalk me from thread to thread?
Because I am not important? Prove it, little psych troll, post it. You
sure don't live by what you posted here.
Barbara Schwarz
--
Barbara Schwarz
plethora wrote:
> Barbara Schwarz wrote:
> > Tilman Hausherr wrote:
> >
> > Tilman Joerg Hausherr from Berlin, Germany (hired by Siemens and
> > married to Ilse Hruby-Plechl, a nurse) is an anti-religious harasser
> > and defamer. He is pro Eugenics, defends psychiatrists who sexually or
> > otherwise abused patients, is a German governmental agent and wants to
> > hurt the American tourism.
> >
> Nutsy, you a blithering psychotic moron. Anyone who believes what's
> posted by RFW has 20 points less IQ than a geranium.
Get a life. People like you are getting plonked.
Stalking me again despite you claim that I am not important,
Plethorazine? If I am not, why do you constantly heckle, defame, lie
about me and libel me? If I would be not important you would kill file
me, but you don't.
Eru Ilúvatar
her paranoia with:
>You are a stalker,
I am not a stalker, Barbara. I am simply pointing out the errors
in your posts in a public forum. That's the free speech you whine
about so often. That isn't not stalking and saying all the time
won't make it be.
Barbara, you are no free to post on Usenet sans criticism. The
nature of the media is such that your crazy claims with always
be challanged--in your case be lots of people. You will never be
able to change that. So please stop the lies about being stalked;
they just show off your insanity.
>"Enu Vatar",
Not even close. Fix your display.
>who posts like Valerie Emanuel.
Please do something about your paranoid delusions before you
self-destruct. I have no idea who or what a Valerie Emanuel is
and don't care to. Why do you feel you need to make such silly
claims?
Eru Ilúvatar
doesn't work Barbara Schwarz <barbara...@gmail.com> wrote:
>That's why you and that Enu
What's an Enu?
>idiot
Should I now whine about defamation in the same shrill
way you always do?
>stalk me
Nobody is stalking you. Get over it. (But we are
laughing *at* you)
>from thread to thread?
That's how Usenet works.
>Because I am not important?
Answering your bullshit gives me some amusement from
time to time. But you aren't important.
Eru Ilúvatar
>Get a life.
How orginal.
>People like you are getting plonked.
Why do you insist on posting that lie again?
Barbara Schwarz
ARS hate group and anybody else think they want to swallow poison?
Back in the late 70s, I was a Guardian Office Public Relation staff in
the Church of Scientology, Germany. My job was it to inform the media
about what Scientology really is and to correct their false reports.
In average, we received three to five media articles a weeks with
falsehoods about Scientology. Reporters usually don't investigate
anything, they just copy the lies and misinformation from other
reporters or these of anti-religious extremists or psychiatrists and
publish them again and again. (Like on ARS)
Anyway, Jonestown happened and an idiotic German Secretary of State
(forgot his unworthy name, he later resigned) held a press conference
that other religions, including Scientologists, would also kill
themselves at any moment and that they must be stopped, he told the
typical German anti-religious persecution crap.
I got 500 of such hysterical and false article on my desk in just one
week, while the Scientologists thought how crazy the German government
and the media is to speak and write such an unbased nonsense. Religious
groups are so different, and Scientology is one who boosts
individualism not cultism.
In the 70s we Scientologists were sitting in the sauna, doing the
Purification Rundown, sweating toxins out and some idiotic German
goverment official claimed that we would drink poison. What an idiot!
Decades passed and still no Scientology-Jonestown.... The German
government and media always got it wrong, always. If you want to know
how Scientology is NOT, read what the Germans and their international
agents, the ARS hatemongers, lie about it.
Barbara Schwarz
Art Deco
Xenu! Come back, Xenu!
--
Official Associate AFA-B Vote Rustler
Official Overseer of Kooks and Trolls in alt.astronomy
"The original human being was a female hermaphrodite with
both male and female genitalia."
"Human beings CAN NOT live in a solar system without a sun
with a ferrite core and a planet without a solid iron core."
-- Alexa Cameron, Kook of the Year 2004
"I am a sean being from another planet."
-- Darla aka Dr. Why aka Dr. Yubiwan aka Silouen aka ...
Peter Widmer
<geisteskrankes Gesabber gesnippt>
Ein weiteres Beispiel, wie sich Psychobarbie als schizoide Paranoikerin
ihre eigene Wahnwelt bastelt.
A further example, how schizophrenic and paranoid Psychobarbie tinkers
its own illusion world
Peter
PS abgesehen davon spammt die Irre wiederum in fünf NGs :-)
--
Peter Widmer <pwi...@quicknet.ch>
3802 Waldegg <http://www.pewid.ch>
Barbara Schwarz
Peter Widmer wrote:
> Barbara Schwarz wrote:
>
> <geisteskrankes Gesabber gesnippt>
Stop drinking and the psych drugs, Peter. I just hit on the reply
button and added one newsgroup. If you would not be so drugged, you
would have noticed that, abusive man.
Barbara Schwarz
--
Peter Widmer
> Peter Widmer wrote:
>> Barbara Schwarz wrote:
>>
>> <geisteskrankes Gesabber gesnippt>
>
<Lügen und Verleumdungen einer Geisteskranken gesnippt>
Liar! You are the kook :-)
Path:
g2news1.google.com!postnews.google.com!g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
From: "Barbara Schwarz" <barbara.schw...@gmail.com>
Newsgroups:
*alt.religion.scientology,*
*alt.fan.art-bell,*
*alt.astrology,*
*alt.usenet.kooks,*
*de.soc.weltanschauung.scientology*
Subject: Remember, Jonestown was in the 70s. Scientologists think for
themselves reject any kind of poison.
Date: 7 Dec 2005 20:25:48 -0800
und der Anhang bringt immer noch Links auf dubiose Seiten mit strafbaren
Inhalten, deren idiotischen Inhalte sich Psychbarbie zueigen macht.
Peter
Peter Widmer
> Peter Widmer wrote:
>> Barbara Schwarz wrote:
>>
>> <geisteskrankes Gesabber gesnippt>
>
<Lügen und Verleumdungen einer Geisteskranken gesnippt>
Liar! You are the kook :-)
Path:
g2news1.google.com!postnews.google.com!g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
From: "Barbara Schwarz" <barbara.schw...@gmail.com>
Newsgroups:
*alt.religion.scientology*
*alt.fan.art-bell*
*alt.astrology*
*alt.usenet.kooks*
*de.soc.weltanschauung.scientology*
Subject: Remember, Jonestown was in the 70s. Scientologists think for
themselves reject any kind of poison.
Date: 7 Dec 2005 20:25:48 -0800
Zudem ist das Suject zu lang und der Anhang bringt immer noch Links auf
dubiose Seiten mit strafbaren Inhalten, deren idiotischen Inhalte sich
Psychbarbie offensichtlich zueigen macht.
Peter
DrPostman
<barbara...@gmail.com> in accordance with The Prophecy scribed:
>Scientologists don't even want to swallow psych drugs, what makes the
>ARS hate group and anybody else think they want to swallow poison?
>
>Back in the late 70s, I was a Guardian Office Public Relation staff in
>the Church of Scientology, Germany. My job was it to inform the media
>about what Scientology really is and to correct their false reports.
Well, that explains why the Germans banned your scam religion.
South Park did a great job of exposing $cientology recently.
--
DrPostman USPS, MBMC, BsD; "Disgruntled, But Unarmed"
Member,Board of Directors, afa-b, SKEP-TI-CULT® #15-51506-253.
AFA-B Official Pollster & Hammer of Thor winner - August 2004
You can email me at: DrPostman(at)gmail.com
"I have become a Clown"
-Protobrain (getting honest)
Nathan Motalio
> Scientologists
are stupid, toxic freaks. They start out as gullible dumbfucks and turn
into robotic, evil, pieces of shit, bent on bilking new gullible dumbfucks.
But don't just take my word for it; everybody else feels the same way, too.
>
Zinj
says...
> In article <b0pfp112luvrb895v...@4ax.com>,
> DrPostman <Lo...@mysig.foremail> wrote:
>
> >South Park did a great job of exposing $cientology recently.
>
> the Mormons.
Heh. 'Right Up There With'?
Heh
After the 'Mormon' dum dum dum dum episode, people ended up *liking* the
Mormons :)
Despite merely scratching the surface of Scientology; it's unlikely the
same could be said for Elron's Magical MushMindMeld.
Hopefully there will be a sequel. The depths have hardly been plumbed.
Maybe Mr. Hanky could join the Sea Org.
Zinj
--
Villains! I say to you now! Knock off all that Evil!
- The Tick
mad_kow
Zinj wrote:
> Maybe Mr. Hanky could join the Sea Org.
Or CartMan. "You will respect my authori-TIE or go to the RPF!!"
Mad KOW
barb
> In article <b0pfp112luvrb895v...@4ax.com>,
> DrPostman <Lo...@mysig.foremail> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> the Mormons.
>
--
--barb
Chaplain,ARSCC
xenu...@netscape.net
"Imagine a church so dangerous, you must sign a release
form before you can receive its "spiritual assistance."
This assistance might involve holding you against your
will for an indefinite period, isolating you from
friends and family, and denying you access to
appropriate medical care. You will of course be billed
for this treatment - assuming you survive it. If not,
the release form absolves your caretakers of all
responsibility for your suffering and death.
Welcome to the Church of Scientology."
--Dr. Dave Touretzky
Peter Alexander
Kevin Brady
Barbara Schwarz
I never met anybody who new everybody else. :)
You must be very insecure in your opinions when you have use this kind
of language to make your point.
Barbara Schwarz
--
Kevin Brady
Sounds like you need False Data Stripping.
DrPostman
accordance with The Prophecy scribed:
>In article <11340323...@localhost.localdomain>, el...@no.spam
>says...
>> In article <b0pfp112luvrb895v...@4ax.com>,
>> DrPostman <Lo...@mysig.foremail> wrote:
>>
>> >South Park did a great job of exposing $cientology recently.
>>
>> I saw that. It was right up there with South Park exposing
>> the Mormons.
>
>Heh. 'Right Up There With'?
>Heh
>
>After the 'Mormon' dum dum dum dum episode, people ended up *liking* the
>Mormons :)
You're kidding, right?
>Despite merely scratching the surface of Scientology; it's unlikely the
>same could be said for Elron's Magical MushMindMeld.
>
>Hopefully there will be a sequel. The depths have hardly been plumbed.
I see a Tom Cruse episode on the horizon.
>Maybe Mr. Hanky could join the Sea Org.
>
>Zinj
>Villains! I say to you now! Knock off all that Evil!
> - The Tick
Spoooooooooon!
Eru Ilúvatar
>Stop drinking and the psych drugs, Peter.
Go see a shrink, Barbara.
I am being defamed here
I never do what crazy people order me. Crawl back in your squirrel
group. Perhaps Eldon Brauns joins you as it is rather lonely over there
as far as I have seen.
DrPostman
<barbara...@gmail.com> in accordance with The Prophecy scribed:
>
>Nathan Motalio wrote:
>> Barbara Schwarz wrote:
>>
>> > Scientologists
>>
>> are stupid, toxic freaks. They start out as gullible dumbfucks and turn
>> into robotic, evil, pieces of shit, bent on bilking new gullible dumbfucks.
>>
>> But don't just take my word for it; everybody else feels the same way, too.
>>
>> >
>
>I never met anybody who new everybody else. :)
>
>You must be very insecure in your opinions when you have use this kind
>of language to make your point.
>
>Barbara Schwarz
He forgot to except stupid, toxic, freak $cientologist. Otherwise he
is correct. You just don't know anyone.
Eru Ilúvatar
>>>Stop drinking and the psych drugs, Peter.
>>Go see a shrink, Barbara.
>I never do what crazy people order me.
And everyone is out of step except you...yeah, I get it.
>Crawl back in your squirrel group.
Sorry, Barbara. I have no "squirrel group" and I have no reason
so leave. Perhaps if you really learned the meaning of "*plonk*",
your lies wouldn't be so obvious. As it is you are a sad little
clown entertaining the masses with your psychotic antics and Nazi
delusions.
Barbara, you are walking example of Scientology being full of
shit about psychology. Some good ol' Thorazine would probably do
wonders for you. Too bad you aren't capable of making a rational
decision to seek help.
Do you even understand that insanity you claim in others is just
a projection of your own problems?
I am being defamed here
Eru Ilúvatar wrote:
> I am doing defamation here (AKA Barbara Schwarz) <Stilllov...@myway.com> wrote:
>
> >>>Stop drinking and the psych drugs, Peter.
>
> >>Go see a shrink, Barbara.
>
> >I never do what crazy people order me.
>
> And everyone is out of step except you...yeah, I get it.
>
> >Crawl back in your squirrel group.
>
> Sorry,
This is the "signature line" of my stalker and defamer Eru
Ilúvatar:
--
DrPostman USPS, MBMC, BsD; "Disgruntled, But Unarmed"
Member,Board of Directors, afa-b, SKEP-TI-CULT® #15-51506-253.
AFA-B Official Pollster & Hammer of Thor winner - August 2004
You can email me at: DrPostman(at)gmail.com
"I have become a Clown"
-Protobrain (getting honest)
--
Right after I read her first hatefilled posting it dawned on me that
she is postal worker and Scienology defamer Valerie Emanuel. Valerie
also posts since a long time an Avatar message board.
Read about her, the lose cannon, who claims to be mentally ill, below.
http://www.parishioners.org/extremists/emanuelv1.html
http://www.parishioners.org/extremists/emanuelv2.html
http://www.parishioners.org/extremists/emanuelv3.html
I have news for you, Val, just because you think you are crazy doesn't
mean that I am. So, shovel your stalkings and defamation. You should
try a life without hatred, perhaps that cures your "mental illness".
This is her header, she carefully covered her IP as she does not want
to be held legally accountable for her harassment, libel, defamation
and stalkings.
Path:
g2news1.google.com!news3.google.com!news.glorb.com!news.alt.net!usenet
From: Eru Ilúvatar <alsimak_th...@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.religion.scientology,alt.wikipedia,alt.astrology,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Wikipedia sucks and sucks and sucks some more....
Date: 8 Dec 2005 23:48:27 GMT
Organization: Orodruin Gardening Club
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <666$g.4j.550.Min1SGAy.98r.K$ktDqFf...@3f4c34.463>
References: <4mdhp15n6ps4rjde0...@4ax.com>
<1134082917.2...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Barbara Schwarz
Ball of Fluff
"Nathan Motalio" <nat...@mota1io.com> wrote in message
news:dn8qhi$qtq$0...@pita.alt.net...
> Barbara Schwarz wrote:
>
>> Scientologists
>
> are stupid, toxic freaks. They start out as gullible dumbfucks and turn
> into robotic, evil, pieces of shit, bent on bilking new gullible
> dumbfucks.
I'm a Scientologist, an ex CofS member and a critic and I assure you I am
none of those things.
>
> But don't just take my word for it; everybody else feels the same way,
> too.
What a generalization.
See, in life, different people are different ways. Not all Scn'ists are the
same any more than all Christians are annoying bible thumping fundies or all
psychiatrists are evil so and so's as most CofS members would claim....
C
Cujo DeSockpuppet
news:1134077503....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> Nathan Motalio wrote:
>> Barbara Schwarz wrote:
>>
>> > Scientologists
>>
>> are stupid, toxic freaks. They start out as gullible dumbfucks and
>> turn into robotic, evil, pieces of shit, bent on bilking new gullible
>> dumbfucks.
>>
>> But don't just take my word for it; everybody else feels the same
>> way, too.
>>
>> >
>
> I never met anybody who new everybody else. :)
Talk to Helena Kobrin. She claims she does.
> You must be very insecure in your opinions when you have use this kind
> of language to make your point.
I have a friend who deals with $cientology scum and the damage they cause
those who don't have the money for the next set of classes.
That person was categorized as "fair game" for trying to get some of the
victims money back. So you whining over a few fucking words you don't
like rather than objecting to the shit that the Clams pull on people who
don't see everything their way isn't going to get much sympathy, kook.
--
Cujo - The Official Overseer of Kooks and Trolls in
dfw.*, alt.paranormal, alt.astrology and alt.astrology.metapsych.
Winner of the 8/2000 & 2/2003 HL&S award. Hail Petitmorte!
Colonel of the Fanatic Legion. FL# 555-PLNTY Motto: ABUNDANCE!.
Hammer of Thor - July 2005. Supreme Holy Overlord of alt.fucknozzles.
"... George Clooney, Cher and Jimmy Stewart--Three well known
politicians who were assassinated." - Edmo really loses it.
The Chief Instigator
>Eru Ilúvatar wrote:
>> I am doing defamation here (AKA Barbara Schwarz) <Stilllov...@myway.com> wrote:
>> >>>Stop drinking and the psych drugs, Peter.
>> >>Go see a shrink, Barbara.
>> >I never do what crazy people order me.
>> And everyone is out of step except you...yeah, I get it.
>> >Crawl back in your squirrel group.
>> Sorry,
>This is the "signature line" of my stalker and defamer Eru
>Ilúvatar:
>--
>DrPostman USPS, MBMC, BsD; "Disgruntled, But Unarmed"
>Member,Board of Directors, afa-b, SKEP-TI-CULT® #15-51506-253.
>AFA-B Official Pollster & Hammer of Thor winner - August 2004
>You can email me at: DrPostman(at)gmail.com
>"I have become a Clown"
> -Protobrain (getting honest)
>Right after I read her first hatefilled posting it dawned on me that
>she is postal worker and Scienology defamer Valerie Emanuel. Valerie
>also posts since a long time an Avatar message board.
You're delusional as usual, Babbles. No one's defaming you when you do it to
yourself so effectively. Go see a shrink, indeed, or continue to be the
running joke of Usenet.
--
Patrick "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey (pat...@io.com) Houston, Texas
chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php (TCI's 2005-06 Houston Aeros)
LAST GAME: Houston 5, Cleveland 2 (December 4)
NEXT GAME: Friday, December 9 at Rochester, 6:35
Vanilla Gorilla (Monkey Boy)
wrote in alt.fan.art-bell in message
<b0pfp112luvrb895v...@4ax.com>:
> On 7 Dec 2005 20:25:48 -0800, "Barbara Schwarz"
> <barbara...@gmail.com> in accordance with The Prophecy scribed:
>
> >Scientologists don't even want to swallow psych drugs, what makes the
> >ARS hate group and anybody else think they want to swallow poison?
> >
> >Back in the late 70s, I was a Guardian Office Public Relation staff in
> >the Church of Scientology, Germany. My job was it to inform the media
> >about what Scientology really is and to correct their false reports.
>
>
> Well, that explains why the Germans banned your scam religion.
>
> South Park did a great job of exposing $cientology recently.
So has Tom Cruise.
--
V.G.
"i would blame them it they went on a holy jhiad and killed off all the infidels, would you?"
- AssLexa's "200+" alien-implanted IQ jumps the rails and crashes into a grade school, killing all inside.
Change pobox dot alaska to gci.
Sarcasm is my sword, Apathy is my shield.
Ball of Fluff
"The Chief Instigator" <pat...@io.com> wrote in message
news:szkk6ee...@fnord.io.com...
Well, she also thought Kady and Kim P were one and the same.
Not so hot at comparing writing styles.
However, we can see her writing style and her morphing...
C
The Chief Instigator
>>>> Sorry,
Indeed...and I'd think the Freezone would be a little better for her - if
they'd put up with her.
Barbara Schwarz
Vanilla Gorilla (Monkey Boy) wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 01:46:26 -0600, DrPostman <Lo...@mysig.foremail>
> wrote in alt.fan.art-bell in message
> <b0pfp112luvrb895v...@4ax.com>:
>
> > On 7 Dec 2005 20:25:48 -0800, "Barbara Schwarz"
> > <barbara...@gmail.com> in accordance with The Prophecy scribed:
> >
> > >Scientologists don't even want to swallow psych drugs, what makes the
> > >ARS hate group and anybody else think they want to swallow poison?
> > >
> > >Back in the late 70s, I was a Guardian Office Public Relation staff in
> > >the Church of Scientology, Germany. My job was it to inform the media
> > >about what Scientology really is and to correct their false reports.
> >
> >
> > Well, that explains why the Germans banned your scam religion.
> >
> > South Park did a great job of exposing $cientology recently.
>
> So has Tom Cruise.
> --
> V.G.
There is some monkey business going on.
Ball of Fluff
The Chief Instigator wrote:
> "Ball of Fluff" <getof...@fluffentology.com> writes:
>
> >"The Chief Instigator" <pat...@io.com> wrote in message
> >news:szkk6ee...@fnord.io.com...
> >> "I am being defamed here" <Stilllov...@myway.com> writes:
>
> >>>> I am doing defamation here (AKA Barbara Schwarz)
> >>>> <Stilllov...@myway.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> >>>Stop drinking and the psych drugs, Peter.
>
> >>>> >>Go see a shrink, Barbara.
>
> >>>> >I never do what crazy people order me.
>
> >>>> And everyone is out of step except you...yeah, I get it.
>
> >>>> >Crawl back in your squirrel group.
>
> >>>> Sorry,
>
> >>>This is the "signature line" of my stalker and defamer Eru
> >>>--
> >>>DrPostman USPS, MBMC, BsD; "Disgruntled, But Unarmed"
> >>>Member,Board of Directors, afa-b, SKEP-TI-CULT® #15-51506-253.
> >>>AFA-B Official Pollster & Hammer of Thor winner - August 2004
> >>>You can email me at: DrPostman(at)gmail.com
> >>>"I have become a Clown"
> >>> -Protobrain (getting honest)
>
> >>>Right after I read her first hatefilled posting it dawned on me that
> >>>she is postal worker and Scienology defamer Valerie Emanuel. Valerie
> >>>also posts since a long time an Avatar message board.
>
> >> You're delusional as usual, Babbles. No one's defaming you when you do it
> >> to yourself so effectively. Go see a shrink, indeed, or continue to be the
> >> running joke of Usenet.
>
> >Well, she also thought Kady and Kim P were one and the same.
>
> >Not so hot at comparing writing styles.
>
> >However, we can see her writing style and her morphing...
>
> Indeed...and I'd think the Freezone would be a little better for her - if
> they'd put up with her.
Well, I don't and I'll tell you why.
Because they wouldn't and shouldn't take her on.
No practitioner should accept for auditing anyone who will not take
responsibility for their actions. They won't make any progress in
session.
This would hold true of psychology based therapies, too.
The person has to be willing to own up and take responsibility.
So I hope no one ever does take her on because in the end, she'd just
continue on with her same patterns and turn on everyone who ever
communicated with her.
I wouldn't wish a patient/pc/counsellee like that on anyone.
But I know what you meant, I think.
C
Barbara Schwarz
Ball of Fluff wrote:
> "The Chief Instigator" <pat...@io.com> wrote in message
> news:szkk6ee...@fnord.io.com...
> > "I am being defamed here" <Stilllov...@myway.com> writes:
> >
> >>> I am doing defamation here (AKA Barbara Schwarz)
> >>> <Stilllov...@myway.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> >>>Stop drinking and the psych drugs, Peter.
> >
> >>> >>Go see a shrink, Barbara.
> >
> >>> >I never do what crazy people order me.
> >
> >>> And everyone is out of step except you...yeah, I get it.
> >
> >>> >Crawl back in your squirrel group.
> >
> >>> Sorry,
> >
> >>This is the "signature line" of my stalker and defamer Eru
> >>--
> >>DrPostman USPS, MBMC, BsD; "Disgruntled, But Unarmed"
> >>Member,Board of Directors, afa-b, SKEP-TI-CULT® #15-51506-253.
> >>AFA-B Official Pollster & Hammer of Thor winner - August 2004
> >>You can email me at: DrPostman(at)gmail.com
> >>"I have become a Clown"
> >> -Protobrain (getting honest)
> >
> >
> >>Right after I read her first hatefilled posting it dawned on me that
> >>she is postal worker and Scienology defamer Valerie Emanuel. Valerie
> >>also posts since a long time an Avatar message board.
> >
> > You're delusional as usual, Babbles. No one's defaming you when you do it
> > to
> > yourself so effectively. Go see a shrink, indeed, or continue to be the
> > running joke of Usenet.
>
> Well, she also thought Kady and Kim P were one and the same.
>
> Not so hot at comparing writing styles.
>
> However, we can see her writing style and her morphing...
>
> C
You accuse me now again of what you are doing, Claire Hypocrite. What
else is not new?
Eru Ilúvatar
>You accuse me now again of what you are doing, Claire Hypocrite.
You'd do well to work on your own hypocrisy before complaining
of others', Barbara.
DrPostman
<vgor...@pobox.alaska.net> in accordance with The Prophecy scribed:
>On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 01:46:26 -0600, DrPostman <Lo...@mysig.foremail>
>wrote in alt.fan.art-bell in message
><b0pfp112luvrb895v...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On 7 Dec 2005 20:25:48 -0800, "Barbara Schwarz"
>> <barbara...@gmail.com> in accordance with The Prophecy scribed:
>>
>> >Scientologists don't even want to swallow psych drugs, what makes the
>> >ARS hate group and anybody else think they want to swallow poison?
>> >
>> >Back in the late 70s, I was a Guardian Office Public Relation staff in
>> >the Church of Scientology, Germany. My job was it to inform the media
>> >about what Scientology really is and to correct their false reports.
>>
>>
>> Well, that explains why the Germans banned your scam religion.
>>
>> South Park did a great job of exposing $cientology recently.
>
>So has Tom Cruise.
Indeed! Well put, sir!
DrPostman
<barbara...@gmail.com> in accordance with The Prophecy scribed:
>
>Vanilla Gorilla (Monkey Boy) wrote:
>> On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 01:46:26 -0600, DrPostman <Lo...@mysig.foremail>
>> wrote in alt.fan.art-bell in message
>> <b0pfp112luvrb895v...@4ax.com>:
>>
>> > On 7 Dec 2005 20:25:48 -0800, "Barbara Schwarz"
>> > <barbara...@gmail.com> in accordance with The Prophecy scribed:
>> >
>> > >Scientologists don't even want to swallow psych drugs, what makes the
>> > >ARS hate group and anybody else think they want to swallow poison?
>> > >
>> > >Back in the late 70s, I was a Guardian Office Public Relation staff in
>> > >the Church of Scientology, Germany. My job was it to inform the media
>> > >about what Scientology really is and to correct their false reports.
>> >
>> >
>> > Well, that explains why the Germans banned your scam religion.
>> >
>> > South Park did a great job of exposing $cientology recently.
>>
>> So has Tom Cruise.
>> --
>> V.G.
>
>There is some monkey business going on.
>
All the time in that bogus church of yours.
DrPostman
<bobof...@invalid.net> in accordance with The Prophecy scribed:
>Do you remember the giant fighting robots? Or how about the other celebs
>they have harpooned in the past?
>
Oh yea, Mecha-Streisand! SP can mine so much from $cientology.
Barbara Schwarz
Cujo DeSockpuppet wrote:
> "Barbara Schwarz" <barbara...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:1134077503....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> >
> > Nathan Motalio wrote:
> >> Barbara Schwarz wrote:
> >>
> >> > Scientologists
> >>
> >> are stupid, toxic freaks. They start out as gullible dumbfucks and
> >> turn into robotic, evil, pieces of shit, bent on bilking new gullible
> >> dumbfucks.
> >>
> >> But don't just take my word for it; everybody else feels the same
> >> way, too.
> >>
> >> >
> >
> > I never met anybody who new everybody else. :)
>
> Talk to Helena Kobrin. She claims she does.
"Nathan Motalio" claimed it in this thread. Is it okay when he does it?
>
> > You must be very insecure in your opinions when you have use this kind
> > of language to make your point.
>
> I have a friend who deals with $cientology scum
I know of the anti-religious extremists and they don't express me a
bit. I complain about non-scientological people infiltrating
Scientology to cause problems and about their counter parts the outside
attackers who exploit the infiltrator job and blame L. Ron Hubbard and
law abiding Scientologists on it.
However, the alleged whining is just in your head.
Otherwise, work on a better language.
Barbara Schwarz
Eru Ilúvatar wrote:
> Barbara Schwarz <barbara...@gmail.com> showed everyone
> her paranoia with:
>
> >You are a stalker,
>
> I am not a stalker, Barbara.
You stalk me from thread to thread and you maliciously defame me. That
posting ID of yours was solely created to harass me. Get a life,
weirdo!
plethora
> Eru Ilúvatar wrote:
> > Barbara Schwarz <barbara...@gmail.com> showed everyone
> > her paranoia with:
>
> posting ID of yours was solely created to harass me. Get a life,
> weirdo!
Nutsy Barbel calling someone a "weirdo". That's entertaining. I think
Barbel drank the Kool-Aid and somehow survived. She was the one who
passed out the new Nikes more recently. The shame is that some poor
village is missing their idiot.
"The United States Secret Service produced documents relating to
Plaintiff's [Schwarz] visit to Washington in April, 1986, her detention
for causing a disturbance at a restaurant, her arrest for unlawful
entry at the White House, and her evaluation at Saint Elizabeth's
Hospital. INTERPOL produced copies of telegrams from 1988 indicating
that German authorities sought assistance in locating Plaintiff, who
had disappeared and was described as "confused" at times. The Secret
Service records suggest that Plaintiff had come to the United States
from Germany to warn President Reagan of danger from the KGB and also
to find either her brother Frank (who had been kidnaped by the KGB) or
Frank E. Brown, described as the father of her brother Frank. "
...
Eru Ilúvatar
>> I am not a stalker, Barbara.
>You stalk me from thread to thread
I reply to your bullshit. That's my right, bitch.
>and you maliciously defame me.
Nobody defames you like you do yourself. You're insane and
you insist on showing it all over the newsgroups.
>That
>posting ID of yours was solely created to harass me.
Wrong again, Barbara. Obviously you aren't burdened
by facts.
>Get a life,
Again: How orginal!
>weirdo!
LOL!
You really need to work on the insults. You especially should
study the hypocrisy involved in calling someone a weirdo when
you rant about imaginary Nazis and submarine bases in a shallow,
corrosive lake. You're a loon.
Nathan Motalio
> Nathan Motalio wrote:
>
>>Barbara Schwarz wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Scientologists
>>
>>are stupid, toxic freaks. They start out as gullible dumbfucks and turn
>>into robotic, evil, pieces of shit, bent on bilking new gullible dumbfucks.
>>
>>But don't just take my word for it; everybody else feels the same way, too.
>>
>>
>
> I never met anybody who new everybody else. :)
Then you don't know Xenu and must have a shitload of Body Thetans you
need to get rid of. Call me when you're "clear", Scienogeek.
>
> You must be very insecure in your opinions when you have use this kind
> of language to make your point.
You must be wacked out of your head to think that profanity affects the
security of an opinion, HubbardWhore.
Barbara Schwarz
Depends what person you are. A drunken bastard like you might assume
that others are just as cheap and vulgar as you but they are not.
Profanity turns better people off. But you might find support amongst
other drunken bastards. :)
Barbara Schwarz
--
http://www.thunderstar.net/~Schwarz/
More about Dave Touretzky:
http://urlsnip.com/254524
http://urlsnip.com/402460
Other interesting websites:
http://www.religiousfreedomwatch.org/extremists/
http://www.alarmgermany.org/
http://bernie.cncfamily.com/sc/sitemap.htm
http://www.cchr.org
http://www.MindFreedom.ORG/
http://www.datafilter.com/mc
http://www.freespeechstore.com
Nathan Motalio
>
> I know of the anti-religious extremists
Scientology isn't a religion, dumbass; it's a freakshow.
>
The Chief Instigator
>Eru Ilúvatar wrote:
>> Barbara Schwarz <barbara...@gmail.com> showed everyone
>> her paranoia with:
>> >You are a stalker,
>> I am not a stalker, Barbara.
>You stalk me from thread to thread and you maliciously defame me. That
>posting ID of yours was solely created to harass me. Get a life,
>weirdo!
Take him to court, Babbles. That way, you'll be home to Germany in no time...
--
Patrick "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey (pat...@io.com) Houston, Texas
chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php (TCI's 2005-06 Houston Aeros)
LAST GAME: Houston 5, Rochester 2 (December 9)
NEXT GAME: Saturday, December 10 at Hamilton, 6:05
DrPostman
<barbara...@gmail.com> in accordance with The Prophecy scribed:
>
>Eru Ilúvatar wrote:
>> Barbara Schwarz <barbara...@gmail.com> showed everyone
>> her paranoia with:
>>
>> >You are a stalker,
>>
>> I am not a stalker, Barbara.
>
>You stalk me from thread to thread and you maliciously defame me. That
>posting ID of yours was solely created to harass me. Get a life,
>weirdo!
You should be so lucky to have anyone give enough of a rat's ass to
even consider stalking you. It would give you something to live for.
Peter Widmer
> Nathan Motalio wrote:
>> Barbara Schwarz wrote:
>>> Nathan Motalio wrote:
>>>
>>>> Barbara Schwarz wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Scientologists
>>>> are stupid, toxic freaks. They start out as gullible dumbfucks and turn
>>>> into robotic, evil, pieces of shit, bent on bilking new gullible dumbfucks.
>>>>
>>>> But don't just take my word for it; everybody else feels the same way, too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I never met anybody who new everybody else. :)
>> Then you don't know Xenu and must have a shitload of Body Thetans you
>> need to get rid of. Call me when you're "clear", Scienogeek.
>>> You must be very insecure in your opinions when you have use this kind
>>> of language to make your point.
>> You must be wacked out of your head to think that profanity affects the
>> security of an opinion, HubbardWhore.
>
> Depends what person you are. A drunken bastard like you might assume
> that others are just as cheap and vulgar as you but they are not.
> Profanity turns better people off. But you might find support amongst
> other drunken bastards. :)
>
Und die Psychobarbie merkt nicht mal, dass sie sich selbst beschreibt.
Peter
--
Peter Widmer <pwi...@quicknet.ch>
3802 Waldegg <http://www.pewid.ch>
Nathan Motalio
> "Nathan Motalio" <nat...@mota1io.com> wrote in message
> news:dn8qhi$qtq$0...@pita.alt.net...
>
>>Barbara Schwarz wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Scientologists
>>
>>are stupid, toxic freaks. They start out as gullible dumbfucks and turn
>>into robotic, evil, pieces of shit, bent on bilking new gullible
>>dumbfucks.
>
>
> I'm a Scientologist, an ex CofS member and a critic and I assure you I am
> none of those things.
>
You woulda been had you stayed on.
>
>>But don't just take my word for it; everybody else feels the same way,
>>too.
>
>
> What a generalization.
>
> See, in life, different people are different ways. Not all Scn'ists are the
> same any more than all Christians are annoying bible thumping fundies or all
> psychiatrists are evil so and so's as most CofS members would claim...
Yes, sometimes different people have senses of humor ranging from great
to none, fluffy.
Nathan Motalio
> Vanilla Gorilla (Monkey Boy) wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 01:46:26 -0600, DrPostman <Lo...@mysig.foremail>
>>wrote in alt.fan.art-bell in message
>><b0pfp112luvrb895v...@4ax.com>:
>>
>>
>>>On 7 Dec 2005 20:25:48 -0800, "Barbara Schwarz"
>>><barbara...@gmail.com> in accordance with The Prophecy scribed:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Scientologists don't even want to swallow psych drugs, what makes the
>>>>ARS hate group and anybody else think they want to swallow poison?
>>>>
>>>>Back in the late 70s, I was a Guardian Office Public Relation staff in
>>>>the Church of Scientology, Germany. My job was it to inform the media
>>>>about what Scientology really is and to correct their false reports.
>>>
>>>
>>>Well, that explains why the Germans banned your scam religion.
>>>
>>>South Park did a great job of exposing $cientology recently.
>>
>>So has Tom Cruise.
>>--
>>V.G.
>
>
> There is some monkey business going on.
Yeah, it's called jumping up and down on a couch and interviewing
actresses to be your wife and bear your child so people don't think
you're gay.
Nathan Motalio
> Nathan Motalio wrote:
>
>>Barbara Schwarz wrote:
>>
>>>Nathan Motalio wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Barbara Schwarz wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Scientologists
>>>>
>>>>are stupid, toxic freaks. They start out as gullible dumbfucks and turn
>>>>into robotic, evil, pieces of shit, bent on bilking new gullible dumbfucks.
>>>>
>>>>But don't just take my word for it; everybody else feels the same way, too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>I never met anybody who new everybody else. :)
>>
>>Then you don't know Xenu and must have a shitload of Body Thetans you
>>need to get rid of. Call me when you're "clear", Scienogeek.
>>
>>>You must be very insecure in your opinions when you have use this kind
>>>of language to make your point.
>>
>>You must be wacked out of your head to think that profanity affects the
>>security of an opinion, HubbardWhore.
>
>
> Depends what person you are. A drunken bastard like you might assume
> that others are just as cheap and vulgar as you but they are not.
I'm neither drunk nor a bastard. You must be very insecure in your
opinions and unproficient in logic to employ such fallacies.
> Profanity turns better people off.
Wrong, it turns pompous assholes off. They aren't "better". They're just
looking for any excuse to seem offended, and hence, lesser.
> But you might find support amongst
> other drunken bastards. :)
Jon Stewart uses profanity all the time. Is he a drunken bastard, you
batshit-crazy cunt?
Android Cat
>>
>> There is some monkey business going on.
>
> Yeah, it's called jumping up and down on a couch and interviewing
> actresses to be your wife and bear your child so people don't think
> you're gay.
Wife? Gee, has he married her yet?
--
Ron of that ilk.
Ball of Fluff
> Ball of Fluff wrote:
>
>> "Nathan Motalio" <nat...@mota1io.com> wrote in message
>> news:dn8qhi$qtq$0...@pita.alt.net...
>>
>>>Barbara Schwarz wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Scientologists
>>>
>>>are stupid, toxic freaks. They start out as gullible dumbfucks and turn
>>>into robotic, evil, pieces of shit, bent on bilking new gullible
>>>dumbfucks.
>>
>>
>> I'm a Scientologist, an ex CofS member and a critic and I assure you I am
>> none of those things.
>>
>
> You woulda been had you stayed on.
Nope. Because I was in it all my life. Since I was in my teens. I'm also ex
staff.
I wasn't like that, my husband wasn't, and our friends were't. And people I
know who are still in aren't.
Are there people like that in CofS?
Yep.
But not all.
It's like anything else in that regard. There're always some party line
types, fundies, end justifies the means types- seen 'em in many religions
and groups and companies- but there are others who aren't.
C
Vanilla Gorilla (Monkey Boy)
<getof...@fluffentology.com> wrote in alt.fan.art-bell in message
<11pm988...@corp.supernews.com>:
That whole SpaceAlien-VOlcano-Thetan-Spirit-Hubbard thing is just a
joke you guys tell the outsiders, right? You don't *really* believe
that stuff, do you?
--
V.G.
"i would blame them it they went on a holy jhiad and killed off all the infidels, would you?"
- AssLexa's "200+" alien-implanted IQ jumps the rails and crashes into a grade school, killing all inside.
Change pobox dot alaska to gci.
Sarcasm is my sword, Apathy is my shield.
Nathan Motalio
Not yet. Seems that $cienoTom doesn't have much use for such piffling
conventions. Isolating her from her family, brainwashing her, assigning
a minder, and impregnating her out of wedlock is more the $cieno style.
Nathan Motalio
> "Nathan Motalio" <nat...@mota1io.com> wrote in message
> news:dnf56r$l7u$0...@pita.alt.net...
>
>>Ball of Fluff wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Nathan Motalio" <nat...@mota1io.com> wrote in message
>>>news:dn8qhi$qtq$0...@pita.alt.net...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Barbara Schwarz wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Scientologists
>>>>
>>>>are stupid, toxic freaks. They start out as gullible dumbfucks and turn
>>>>into robotic, evil, pieces of shit, bent on bilking new gullible
>>>>dumbfucks.
>>>
>>>
>>>I'm a Scientologist, an ex CofS member and a critic and I assure you I am
>>>none of those things.
>>>
>>
>>You woulda been had you stayed on.
>
>
> Nope. Because I was in it all my life. Since I was in my teens.
No WONDER you're such a fucking nutcase.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Schwarz
>
Eru Ilúvatar
>No WONDER you're such a fucking nutcase.
There's plenty of evidence to show she's nutty:
http://www.usdoj.gov/04foia/foiacase5.pdf
Schwarz v. Dep't of State, No. 98-5101, 1998 U.S. App. LEXIS
20690 (D.C. Cir. July 29, 1998) (Exemption 6: affirms district
court ruling; passport files are "similar files" under the FOIA;
protects a third-party address from agency's passport files
because there is a privacy interest at stake and plaintiff has
not demonstrated a public interest in disclosure).
Schwarz v. FBI, 31 F.3d 540 (N.D. W. Va. 1998) (exhaustion:
because plaintiff failed to submit legible fingerprints, she has
not exhausted her administrative remedies with respect to records
she requested under the FOIA about herself) (Exemption 7(C):
protects third-party information where plaintiff has not provided
a waiver from that third party), aff'd, No. 98-2347, 1998 WL
801850 (4th Cir. Nov. 18, 1998) (unpublished order), 166 F.3d 334
(4th Cir. 1998) (table cite) .
Schwarz v. FBI, No. 98-4036, 1998 WL 667643 (10th Cir. Sept. 17,
1998) (unpublished order), 161 F.3d 18 (10th Cir. 1998) (table
cite) (affirms district court's ruling that agency conducted a
reasonable search for records in response to plaintiff's FOIA
request).
Schwarz v. NARA, No. 98-4070, 1998 WL 703318 (10th Cir. Oct. 7,
1998) (unpublished order), 162 F.3d 1174 (10th Cir. 1998) (table
cite) (affirms district court ruling that agency demonstrated
that it conducted a reasonable search for records in response to
plaintiff's FOIA request).
Schwarz v. Nat'l Inst. of Corrections, No. 98-1230, 1998 WL
694510 (10th Cir. Oct. 6, 1998) (unpublished order), 161 F.3d
18 (10th Cir. 1998) (table cite) (doctrine of res judicata
bars this action, because plaintiff's lawsuit in District of
Maryland, which involved the same parties and the same claim, was
dismissed).
Schwarz v. Dep't of Commerce, No. 93-1117 (D.D.C. May 28, 1993),
summary affirmance granted, No. 93-5203 (D.C. Cir. Oct. 14, 1993)
(Exemption 3 [13 U.S.C. § 9(a)]: the authority to disclose census
information is limited to numerical statistical data; all of the
information requested here is exempt).
Schwarz v. INTERPOL, Nos. 94-4111, 94-4142 (10th Cir. Feb. 28,
1995) (unpublished order), 48 F.3d 1232 (10th Cir. 1995) (table
cite) (the Executive Office for United States Attorneys was
entitled to summary judgment because its affidavit demonstrated
that after a reasonable search it was unable to locate records
concerning plaintiff's missing husband) (Exemption 7(C): INTERPOL
properly refused to confirm or deny the existence of a file on
plaintiff's husband; plaintiff's husband clearly has a privacy
interest in avoiding disclosure of his whereabouts to third
parties; this information would not shed light on the operations
of the federal government).
Schwarz v. United States Patent & Trademark Office, No. 95-5349,
1996 U.S. App. LEXIS 4609 (D.C. Cir. Feb. 22, 1996) (unpublished
order), 80 F.3d 558 (D.C. Cir. 1996) (table cite) (subsection
(a)(2): agency indexes patent files and makes them available for
public inspection under FOIA's subsection (a)(2); agency need
not disclose these records in response to FOIA requests under
subsection (a)(3)).
Schwarz v. Dep't of Justice, No. 95-2162 (D.D.C. May 31, 1996)
(res judicata: plaintiff's claims concerning documents at issue
in earlier litigation in Utah are barred by the principles of res
judicata) (duty to search: defendant's affidavit demonstrates
that it conducted a search reasonably calculated to uncover
all records responsive to plaintiff's FOIA request) ("not an
agency" defense: the FOIA applies only to agencies of the United
States, not to agencies of foreign governments) (Exemption
2 "low": protects an investigative file number and an "ORI"
number, because they are of merely internal significance)
(Exemption 7 (threshold): threshold requirement met by records
compiled by INTERPOL as part of an investigation of a missing
person) (Exemptions 6 and 7(C): protect the identities of
INTERPOL employees and a third party) (Exemption 7(D): applying
Landano, finds that the exemption protects the identity of a
foreign confidential source who provided information under an
express assurance of confidentiality) (waiver of exemption:
inadvertent release of information does not constitute waiver of
the applicable FOIA exemption).
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
[date stamp:] SEP 24 2002
___________________________________
BARBARA SCHWARZ )
Plaintiff, )
)Civil Action No. 00-2758(JDB)
v. )
)
FEDERAL BUREAU OF )
INVESTIGATION, et al., )
Defendants. )
___________________________________)
MEMORANDUM OPINION
In this case under the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S.C. § 552
("FOIA"), plaintiff names the Federal Bureau of Investigation
("FBI") and 47 of its subdivisions, the Office of Information and
Privacy ofthe Department of Justice,1 the Central Intelligence
Agency ("CIA"), and the Department of the Army and 19 of its
subdivisions. Defendants have filed a motion to dismiss the
complaint for failure to state a claim on which relief can be
granted. On review of the complaint, the motion, plaintiff's
opposition, and the applicable law, including decisions in
previous cases filed by plaintiff in this Court, the motion will
be granted.
I. The Complaint
This is one of many cases related to plaintiff's efforts to
obtain information about herself and Mark C. Rathbun. The premise
of plaintiff's crusade in this and other FOIA cases is that Mark
Rathbun has been illegally convicted of having raped and murdered
her, that she is his "relief witness," and that his location in
a federal prison is being concealed as part of a German Nazi
conspiracy that infects many levels of the federal government.2
The claims against the subdivisions of the Department of Justice
relate to FOIA requests mailed by plaintiff in June, July,
and August, 2000. The claim against the CIA involves a FOIA
request plaintiff mailed on June 15, 2000. Her claim against the
Department of the Army and its subdivisions involves requests she
mailed on October 8, 1999, and July 24, 2000.3
A. The Claims against FBI Offices
Plaintiff mailed identical FOIA requests to nine FBI field
offices on June 7, 2000,4 to eleven different FBI field offices
on July 13, 2000,5 and to 25 additional FBI field offices on
August 7, 2000.6 The requests were for information regarding
herself (either as Schwarz or Schwartz), Mark C. Rathbun (de
Rothschild), and Mark's parents Claude and Elizabeth Rathbun (de
Rothschild). Plaintiff asked whether Rathbun, his attorneys or
his family's attorneys, or an independent or special counsel had
contacted the field office for records regarding plaintiff or
her FOIA litigation. Although plaintiff's primary interest is in
Rathbun, she also requested information about L. Ron Hubbard, the
founder of the Church of Scientology. She asserts that the FBI
"persecuted" Hubbard "most of his life, after FBI bought lies
from German Nazis that he would be no honorable man." See, e.g.,
Compl. at 13. Plaintiff identified specific indices in which
she asked that each search be made, and requested all public
records on the individuals mentioned and a search declaration
from each office. She provided a certification of her identity
and authorized the field offices to provide any records on her
to Rathbun, his family, their attorneys, or an independent or
special counsel.
Plaintiff received varying responses from the offices. Generally
the response was to ask her to provide privacy waivers from
individuals other than herself, and to inform her that the office
had no responsive records and that no inquiries or subpoenas
had been received from any independent or special counsel. Some
offices advised plaintiff that FBI headquarters has records on
L. Ron Hubbard, after plaintiff informed them that he had been
declared dead.7
Some offices described the records systems that had been
searched, prompting plaintiff to complain that the offices had
failed to search other records systems. The Pittsburgh office,
defendant 7, told plaintiff that it had records of a case she
had filed in the United States District Court for the District
of Maryland, but did not produce those records. Compl. at 19.
This response caused plaintiff to complain that the office should
have found records of her litigation in Utah and the District of
Columbia, and that other offices should have located the records
of these cases and thus had not conducted adequate searches.
E.g., FBI Cincinnati, defendant 19, and FBI San Francisco,
defendant 36. Compl. at 88.8 Plaintiff objects that she was not
provided "search declarations" and that the offices that located
no records on her did not tell her which names had been searched.
Plaintiff's June 15, 2000, request to the FBI's Criminal Justice
Information Services Division, defendant 48, was specifically
for records generated in connection with appeals on a previous
FOIA request and plaintiff's litigation in West Virginia, the
Fourth Circuit, and the United States Supreme Court. She asked
also whether that office had received inquiries or subpoenas
for records of her prior FOIA litigation from Rathbun's or
his family's attorneys or the independent or special counsel.
Compl. at 112-13. An official of this office responded with what
plaintiff claims is a deliberate misconstruction of her request9
and a referral to headquarters for processing.
Plaintiff's administrative appeals from the various responses
have been denied.
Plaintiff challenges the sufficiency of the search conducted by
every office that responded that it had no records on her and no
record of an inquiry by an independent or special counsel. She
claims that the offices provided wrong information when they say
she has never been of investigatory interest to the FBI and had
not been the subject of electronic surveillance. She refuses to
accept a response that the office has no such records and than
it will not search for records on Mark Rathbun or his parents
without a privacy waiver.10 All such responses are attributed
to the German Nazi conspiracy. For example, plaintiff asserts
that the Pittsburgh office "misinformed Mark Rathbun, his family
or their attorneys (sic) or the independent or special counsel
having no records on me so that they don't get hold of me as
witness and to obstructjustice." Compl. at 20; see also Compl. at
50 (Louisville Field Office, defendant 22). In some instances,
a "no records" response provokes an allegation that the office
simply did not conduct any search. See, e.g., Compl. at 38
(Phoenix field office, defendant 18) (plaintiff asserts that
the requested subpoenas exist and the office is "deliberately
withholding them from" her); Compl. at 41 (Cincinnati field
office, defendant 19); Compl. at 46-47 (Newark field office,
defendant 21).
The Boston office and its related office in Bangor, Maine,
defendants 12 and 13, sent plaintiff seven pages relating to L.
Ron Hubbard, with excisions of the names of FBI agents who wrote
reports, in reliance on Exemption 7(C) of the FOIA, 5 U.S.C. §
552(a)(7)(C). Plaintiff objects to the excisions on the ground
that "if a government employee wants to stay private, he or
she should seek employment in the private sector." Compl. at
30. In addition, because plaintiff has been informed that FBI
headquarters has more than 600 pages of records on Hubbard, she
contends that it is impossible that other offices have no records
on him. See, e.g., Compl. at 38 (Phoenix field office, defendant
18). The Cincinnati field office, defendant 19, found records
on Hubbard but declined to produce them, referring plaintiff
instead to the FBI Headquarters reading room. Plaintiff asserts
that "they found German Nazi lies in those records ... that were
deliberately wrongfully spread about L. Ron Hubbard to destroy
his reputation and life and they don't want me to obtain a copy,
so that I can't correct the lies." Compl. at 42. Plaintiff
asserts that she has a right to 100 pages free ftom these records
and should not be referred to the reading room when she is in
Utah.11 Compl. at 42. The Cleveland field office, defendant
20, provided 15 pages relating to Hubbard, also with certain
excisions made in reliance on Exemption 7(C). Plaintiff objects
that additional records must be available and seeks an in camera
inspection to determine whether the exemptions were proper.
Compl. at 44. Some offices, for example the Newark field office,
defendant 21, the Louisville field office, defendant 22, and
the Milwaukee field office, defendant 23, referred plaintiff's
request about Hubbard to headquarters. Plaintiff asserts this was
a deliberate attempt to delay processing of her request because
of the known backlog of FOIA requests at FBI headquarters.
B. The Central Intelligence Agency
Plaintiff's request to the CIA, defendant 49, was for any records
generated and received in connection with her prior FOIA requests
and appeals, and litigation records relating to a case in the
District Court for Utah and the Tenth Circuit. Plaintiff asked
that a search be made in several offices at CIA headquarters and
also in seven district offices. When she had received no response
after 35 days, plaintiff re-mailed the request directly to the
Director of the CIA. Finally, on August 14, 2000, Plaintiff
mailed the request a third time. This time she added a request
for any CIA records on President Dwight Eisenhower, any records
relating to a village in Utah named Chattanooga, and any records
referring to her "under code name 'Cindy.'" Compl. at 114.
Plaintiff had received no response from the CIA by the time she
submitted her complaint in this case in October 2000.
C. The Department of the Army
Plaintiff's claim against this defendant relates to a FOIA
request she had mailed on October 8, 1999, which had been
referred by the Army's FOIA office to the nineteen subdivisions
named as defendants.12 Plaintiff's request was for the same
records sought from the FBI regarding herself, Mark Rathbun,
his family, his attorneys, L. Ron Hubbard, and an independent
or special counsel. Plaintiff later mailed to eleven of the
offices13 an additional request for information regarding
President Eisenhower, Chattanooga, Utah, and records on three of
her earlier cases in this District.14
Generally, as with the FBI offices, the Army offices found no
responsive records and did not search for records regarding third
parties.15 Plaintiff objects that most offices that responded
merely advised her that no records had been located, without
describing the particulars of the search. E.g., defendant 63,
Compl. at 136; defendant 64, Compl. at 137; defendant 66, Compl.
at 140. Other offices simply had not responded to the referral
from the main FOIA office before the complaint was filed. The
Army Medical Command Headquarters, defendant 55, searched for
records relating to the Rathbuns, their attorneys, and the
independent or special counsel, but found no records. Compl.
at 124. When the Office of the Assistant Secretary, Financial
Management and Comptroller advised plaintiff that it did not
maintain records regarding private citizens except active duty
military and civilian employees, plaintiff questioned whether
this office discards FOIA requests, subpoenas, and other legal
files. Compl. at 139.
The Office of the Engineer Inspector General of the Army Corps
of Engineers referred plaintiff's request to the Army Inspector
General. Plaintiff alleges that this was done in an attempt
to cover up existing records. Moreover, she asserts, the Army
Inspector General "is completely lawless office and does not
respect any FOIA/PA laws...." Compl. at 129.
Plaintiff's final request was sent on July 24, 2000, to the
Inspector General of the Department of the Army. Again, she
requested records regarding herself, her litigation cases (the
three District of Columbia cases previously mentioned and a case
in an unspecified court numbered 95-275-B), L. Ron Hubbard,
Chattanooga, Utah, the Rathbuns, and subpoenas from their
attorneys or an independent or special counsel. Records Release
Officer Nancy Reed responded with the usual request for a privacy
waiver from the third parties. Plaintiff claims this was an
illegal attempt to refuse to search for the records. She alleges
that Reed knows that Rathbun is illegally incarcerated because of
the Nazi conspiracy, and it is public knowledge that Hubbard "was
officially declared dead in 1986." Compl. at 126. Plaintiff's
administrative appeal of this response was unsuccessful. On
August 13, 2000, plaintiff requested from this office its records
on President Eisenhower. This request was ignored.
In her request for relief, plaintiff asks that each defendant
provide a detailed description of the search performed in
response to her request, that each defendant search in every
records system and office, and, further, that the Court
investigate a conspiracy between the federal defendants of
this case to deny records to me, which I need to get hold of
wrongfully incarcerated Mark. C. Rathbun (de Rothschild).
[and] investigate if the federal defendants of this case inform
Mark C. Rathbun, members of his family, their attorneys, an
Independent or Spedial (sic) Counsel wrongfully not knowing of my
FOIA/PA requests, appeals and other records, so that they don't
get hold of me, so that I can't testify for innocent Mark Rathbun
and can't testify as to a German originated, German oriented,
German controlled Nazi-conspiracy that has infiltrated the U.S.
government to deny good American citizens their rights.
Compl. at 147-48.
II. The Motion to Dismiss
Defendants essentially contend that plaintiff has failed to state
a claim on which relief can be granted because her numerous FOIA
requests are based on the fanciful premise that Mark Rathbun
is illegally held as part of a Nazi conspiracy. Defendants
argue that the allegations that agencies deliberately failed to
search for records or purposely concealed records are conclusory
and without any "rational facts" to support them. Memorandum
in Support Of Motion to Dismiss ("Memorandum") at 11. They
point out that the agencies conducted legally adequate searches
despite plaintiff's objection that many searches were inadequate
because the entity did not search every office and every system
of records. See SafeCard Servs. v. SEC, 926 F.2d 1197, 1201
(D.C.Cir. 1991). They note that plaintiff is not entitled at
the administrative level to a "search declaration" or "search
certificate." See Schwarz v. United States Depot of Treasury,
131 F. Supp. 2d 142, 147 (D.D.C. 2000), aff'd, 2001 WL 674636
(D.C. Cir., May 10, 2001), rehearing denied, (D.C. Cir., July 10,
2001). Moreover, they contend that this civil action constitutes
abuse of process.
Plaintiff has filed a lengthy opposition to the motion, primarily
arguing that the premise of her requests is founded in fact
and not fanciful. See Opposition at 19-20.16 She points out
that she has filed numerous cases because of the "corruption
of so many agencies and their conspirative coordinated actions
against" her. Opposition at 5. She asserts that the "hostile,
unlawful and unconstitutional motion" was filed because the
defense attorneys "know that the agencies did either not search
at all or deliberately searched the wrong records or deliberately
searched only inadequately and deliberately withheld records
from" her. Id.17 She asserts that no search was made for the
subpoenas she requested because they are to be illegally withheld
from her. Opposition at 6.18 Plaintiff states that she can prove
that "the U.S. Government is secretly infiltrated by German
Nazi conspiracy, U.S. Governmental employees that 'owe' the
Germans their careers within the U.S. Government, because Germans
helped them secretly to their positions." Opposition at 7. Had
Judge Kennedy (presumably in Schwarz v. United States Depot of
Treasury, supra) required the CIA to provide a declaration, he
would "finally get to the bottom of [her] kidnaping, by German
Nazis, [her] being abused by them, [her] being doughter (sic) of
L. Ron Hubbard and granddaughter (sic) of President Eisenhower
and married to Mark C. Rathbun (de Rothschild.)" Opposition at
7-8. Plaintiff reiterates that Rathbun "can lose his life behind
bars" and the agencies should give her a contact address so she
can notify him, his family, or his attorneys of her desire to
testify and prove that he was framed and is innocent. Opposition
at 8-9. She is entitled to learn where Rathbun is being held,
because the place of incarceration of a federal prisoner is known
to the FBI and is public information. Opposition at 9. Moreover,
the agencies should have provided her with public information
about Mark, Claude, and Elizabeth Rathbun. Opposition at 11.
Plaintiff further asserts that individuals who responded to her
FOIA requests "acted with criminal purpose in their minds because
they dishonestly altered the dates on which they received" her
requests. Other FBI employees forged the signatures of the
persons whose names were on the letters, in order to conceal
their own identities and those of their superiors. Opposition
at 12-13. Although search declarations are not required at the
administrative level, the agencies would have saved time had they
provided them. Opposition at 16-17.
Plaintiff rejects the defendants' argument that she has abused
the system by filing frivolous FOIA requests. She refers to an
individual named Michael Ravnitzky who she alleges has filed at
least 2000 FOIA requests but has not been charged with abusing
the system. Plaintiff asserts that she has not filed thousands
of administrative appeals, and is not harassing any defendant or
any court but merely asking them "to do their jobs." Opposition
at 23-24. As to the cases cited by defendants in which frequent
filers have been disciplined, plaintiff asserts that "many" of
these litigants "were hired to abuse the system by filing indeed
frivolous actions so that court opinions can be used by corrupt
judges to deny honest litigants rights." Opposition at 23.
III. Legal Analysis
In considering a motion to dismiss for failure to state a claim,
the Court must accept all well pleaded factual allegations
as true and draw all reasonable inferences in favor of the
plaintiff. See, e.g., Hishon v. King & Spalding, 467 U.S. 69, 73
(1984); Conley v. Gibson, 355 U.S. 41, 45-46 (1957); Atchinson
v. District of Columbia, 73 F.3rd 418, 421 (D.C. Cir. 1996). A
claim may be dismissed only when it is certain "beyond doubt"
that there are no sets of facts under which relief could be
granted. Conley v. Gibson, supra. Although pro se complaints, in
particular, are held "to less stringent standards than formal
pleadings drafted by lawyers," Haines v. Kerner, 404 U.S. 519,
520 (1972), the court is not bound to "accept unsupported
assertions, unwarranted inferences or sweeping legal conclusions
cast in the form of factual allegations." Himmelman v. MCI
Communs.Corp., 104 F. Supp. 2d 1, 3 (D.D.C. 2000).
This is the fourth of five FOIA complaints that plaintiff has
submitted to this Court in the last few years, each seeking
records on Mark Rathbun, his family, President Eisenhower, and L.
Ron Hubbard, and some in addition requesting information about
Rosemarie Marie Bretschneider, a school in a submarine village,
the Church of Scientology, and an alleged German Nazi conspiracy
infiltrating the government.19 The first case, Schwarz v. United
States Department of Treasury, Civil Action 98-2406, named 79
defendants. The exhaustive opinion granting defendants' motion
for summary judgment, 131 F. Supp. 2d 142 (D.D.C. 2000), was
affirmed by the Court of Appeals, 2001 WL 674636 (D.C. Cir,. May
1O, 2001), rehearing denied (D.C. Cir., July 13, 2001).20
A second case, Schwarz v. United States Department of Energy,
Civil Action 99-3234, named an additional 72 federal entities,
various subdivisions, and many individuals, a total of 807
separate defendants.21 Plaintiff's FOIA requests in that case
related to the Rathbuns, their attorneys, Hubbard, an independent
or special counsel, Germans, schools in a submarine village in
Great Salt Lake, and Rosemarie Bretschneider. That case was
dismissed on the ground that it failed to state a claim on which
relief could be granted and was frivolous or malicious. The Court
concluded that the complaint was "not based on legally arguable
challenges to actions on Plaintiff's FOIA requests. Rather,
it [was] based on Plaintiff's misunderstanding of reality and
therefore must be dismissed because it both fail[ed] to state
a claim on which relief can be granted and [was] frivolous.
Neitzke v. Williams, 490 U.S. 319, 325 (1989)." Schwarz v. United
States Department of Energy, Civil Action No. 99-3234 (D.D.C.
November 5, 2001), aff'd, 2002 WL 1050431 (D.C. Cir., March 25,
2002). In affirming the dismissal, the Court of Appeals stated
that "to the extent many aspects of [plaintiff's] complaint
'lack[] an arguable basis either in law or in fact,' Neitzke v.
Williams, 409 U.S. 319, 325 (1989), they were properly dismissed
as frivolous."
A third case, Schwarz v. United States General Accounting Office,
Civil Action No. 00-369, was dismissed on November 13, 2001. The
dismissal also has been affirmed, 2002 WL 1050444 (D.C. Cir.,
March 29, 2002).22 The most recent case filed by plaintiff in
this Court is Schwarz v. United States Depot of Agriculture, et
al, Civil Action No. 01-1464. In that case, plaintiff named 3,087
defendants in a complaint of 2,370 pages. In the initial review
of the complaint in connection with plaintiff's application for
leave to proceed in forma pauperis, Chief Judge Thomas F. Hogan
noted that plaintiff had named "what appears to be every federal
department, independent federal agency and office or component
thereof and each agency's FOIA officers." Schwarz v. United
States Depot of Agriculture, et al, Order filed June 29, 2001, at
3. The complaint was dismissed with prejudice as frivolous and
malicious, pursuant to 28 U.S.C. §1915(e)(2)(B)(i). Plaintiff
thereafter was enjoined from further filings except under limited
circumstances. Both the dismissal and the injunction order have
been affirmed by the Court of Appeals. Schwarz v. Department
of Agriculture, Secretary, et al., 2001 WL 1610051 (D.C. Cir.,
November 23, 2001).
The Court has reviewed the complaint in this case, the motion to
dismiss, and plaintiff's response. The premise of plaintiff's
FOIA requests is that a German Nazi conspiracy has infiltrated
the United States Government, that Mark Rathbun is being held
secretly having been falsely convicted, that one purpose of
the conspiracy is to prevent plaintiff from locating Rathbun
or his parents or attorneys so that she can testify on his
behalf, and that an independent or special counsel may be trying
unsuccessfully to reach plaintiff to obtain her testimony.23 The
Court concludes that this premise is fanciful and has no basis in
fact.
The Freedom of Information Act is designed to provide requesters
with real information about how the government works. Its
admirable purpose is abused when misguided individuals are
allowed (in this case, repeatedly) to submit requests to every
agency and subdivision of the government, seeking information
about an imaginary conspiracy. Thus this case, as were two of
plaintiff's previous cases, will be dismissed as frivolous
pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 1915(e)(2)(B)(i).
An appropriate order, signed this day, accompanies this
Memorandum Opinion.
[signed]
JOHN D. BATES
United States District Judge
DATE: September 24, 2002
[Notes]
1 This office appears to have been named because it is the
component of the Department of Justice that denied plaintiff's
administrative appeals. The only proper defendant in a FOIA case
is the "agency," in this instance the Department of Justice (for
the FBI), the Central Intelligence Agency, and the Department of
the Army, as plaintiff has been advised in other cases.
2 Plaintiff provided with her FOIA requests to many offices a
declaration dated October 8, 1997, stating that she is Rathbun's
wife and "relief witness," that he has been framed by the German
Nazi conspiracy, and that the lives of both of them are in
danger.
3 Plaintiff alleges that her claims in this case are different
from claims made in previous cases against the FBI headquarters,
the Department of Justice Office of Information and Privacy, the
FBI Criminal Justice Information Service Division, the CIA, and
the Secretary and FOIA office of the Department of the Army.
Compl. ¶ 5.
4 These offices are defendants 30, 32, 36-41, and 47 in the complaint.
5 Defendants 18, 24-29, 31, and 33-35.
6 These offices are named as defendants 2, 4-17, 19-23, and 42-46.
7 For example, FBI Little Rock, defendant 5. Compl. at 16.
8 Plaintiff adds on page 111 of the complaint an additional claim
against all listed field offices. The Detroit office had informed
plaintiff that they had located records of a case brought by
L. Ron Hubbard against the FBI director in this Court, Civil
Action No.78-0107. Plaintiff argues that the other offices had
not conducted adequate searches because no other offices located
this case.
9 Apparently the letter assumed that plaintiff requested
information regarding any criminal records relating to her, and
asked that she provide a copy of her fingerprints. See Compl. at
113.
10 Plaintiff points out that it is inappropriate to require a
privacy waiver for Rathbun and his family because the offices
know she needs to locate them before she can obtain privacy
waivers. See, e.g., Compl. at 21, 29, 41.
11 Reading rooms provide access to basic agency records that
must be made "available for public inspection and copying,"
either at agency offices or electronically. 5 U.S.C. § 552(a)(2).
Such records ordinarily cannot be the subject of regular FOIA
requests. 5 U.S.C. § 552(a)(3)(A).
12 Plaintiff had asked that the request be referred to 74
specific offices. She objects that the FOIA officer, Rose Marie
Christensen, referred the request to the Chief Attorney to
respond for several of the named offices, and to other offices
instead of offices specifically named. See Compl.at 115- 19.
Plaintiff asserts that this was done in an attempt to conceal
responsive records.
13 See, e.g., Compl. at 120, the Army Space and Missile Defense
Command, defendant 52, and Compl. at 122, the Deputy Chief of
Staff for Logistics, defendant 53.
14 Defendants 53, 54, 55, 60-66, and 69. The cases plaintiff
specified are Schwarz v. United States Depot of Treasury, et
al, Civil Action No. 98-2406, Schwarz v. United States Depot Of
Energy, et al, Civil Action No. 99-3234, and Schwarz v. United
States Depot of Agriculture, et al, Civil Action No. 00-1610.
15 The Army Space and Missile Defense Command, for example, told
plaintiff that it had searched for and found no records regarding
L. Ron Hubbard and Sarah Hubbard Eisenhower/Rathbun, but did not
describe a search for records regarding plaintiff as Barbara
Schwarz or Schwartz, and did not search for the Rathbuns or their
attorneys or the special counsel. See Compl. at 120.
16 Plaintiff's response to the motion to dismiss, entitled
"Motion by Plaintiff in Response to Defendants Motion to
Dismiss," will be cited as "Opposition."
17 Plaintiff later asserts that it "is treason against the
United States and a very hard blow against the United States
Constitution and national ecurity to consider a case that could
very well prove the secret German Nazi infiltration of the U.S.
government as no legitimate complaint." Opposition at 21-22. See
also Opposition at 35 (defendants are "a disgusting despicable
Nazi conspiracy, ordered by the Germans to make it impossible
to me to document their infiltration of the U.S. Government and
their high crimes committed while having uncontrolled access to
criminal officials and judges.").
18 Plaintiff later asserts that it is "rational to conclude that
the defendants misinformed the attorneys of Mark Rathbun (de
Rothschild) or the attorneys of his family or an independent
or special counsel not having any records on me to obstruct
justice so that they don't get hold of me as witness, against the
German Nazi infiltration of the U.S. Government and as witness to
the wrongful incarceration of Mark Rathbun.... I know they are
lying to me and lying to them." Opposition at 15-16 (emphasis in
original).
19 These five more recent FOIA cases are not, however,
plaintiff's only litigation activities. Plaintiff's nine earlier
cases filed in this Court are listed in footnote 1 of the Order
filed June 29, 2001, in Schwarz v. United States Dep't of
Agriculture, Civil Action No. 01-1464. Moreover, she has herself
referenced various other federal cases she has brought in, for
example, Utah, Maryland, West Virginia, and other locations.
20 The District Court opinion summarizes plaintiff's contentions
about her parentage, her relationship with Mark Rathbun, and the
alleged connection with President Eisenhower and L. Ron Hubbard.
See Schwarz v. United States Department of Treasury, 131 F. Supp.
2d at 145 n.4.
21 That complaint originally named 2183 defendants and was
dismissed because it violated Rule 8(a) of the Federal Rules of
Civil Procedure. See Docket #3, Order of December 7, 1999.
22 A fourth case still pending, Schwarz v. United States Dep't of
Health and Human Servs. et al, Civil Action No. 00-1610, names
465 defendants in a 189 page complaint.
23 Given the number of cases plaintiff has filed in this and
other courts, any special counsel would have no difficulty
in locating her at her home in Salt Lake City. In this case
plaintiff also seeks information to clear the name of L. Ron
Hubbard. She has been directed to FBI headquarters to obtain the
approximately 600 pages of responsive records that apparently are
located there.
Source: Clerk's Office, D.C. District Court
Barbara Schwarz
And what's your problem with that? Don't you like posters like me
because I do not post swastikas as others here?
Judicial corruption means that the justice system is a failure.
And stop stalking me from thread to thread, Valerie and "Nathan". Tell
this also to your case officers.
Defaming me as nuts doesn't make me nuts but you.
plethora
>
> Judicial corruption means that the justice system is a failure.
You haven't won one yet. So all the judges who have ruled against you -
saying you are crazy - are corrupt.
>
> Defaming me as nuts doesn't make me nuts but you.
>
You ARE nuts.
Nathan Motalio
> Eru Ilúvatar wrote:
>
>>Nathan Motalio <nat...@mota1io.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>No WONDER
>
>
> And what's your problem with that? Don't you like posters like me
> because I do not post swasti
GODWINNED!
Art Deco
> Sat, 10 Dec 2005 11:26:13 -0900, "Vanilla Gorilla (Monkey Boy)"
><vgor...@pobox.alaska.net> licked the point of a #2 Yellow Pencil,
>Did you hear the story about L. Ron Hubbard? He is the one who made it
>all up as an adjunct to his SF writings. When he was asked if people
>would be upset to learn it was all bullshit, he is famously reported
>to have said, "Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke."
Xenu! Tell me it isn't true!
--
Official Associate AFA-B Vote Rustler
Official Overseer of Kooks and Trolls in alt.astronomy
"The original human being was a female hermaphrodite with
both male and female genitalia."
"Human beings CAN NOT live in a solar system without a sun
with a ferrite core and a planet without a solid iron core."
"...the poles of Earth are tipped further away from the sun
now, because the use of EM weaponry caused the Earth's
mantle to shift."
-- Alexa Cameron, Kook of the Year 2004
"I am a sean being from another planet."
-- Darla aka Dr. Why aka Dr. Yubiwan aka Silouen aka ...
The Chief Instigator
>Eru Ilúvatar wrote:
>> Nathan Motalio <nat...@mota1io.com> wrote:
>> >No WONDER
>And what's your problem with that? Don't you like posters like me
>because I do not post swastikas as others here?
>Judicial corruption means that the justice system is a failure.
>And stop stalking me from thread to thread, Valerie and "Nathan". Tell
>this also to your case officers.
Why don't you prove that any of us have ever had case officers, Babbles?
>Defaming me as nuts doesn't make me nuts but you.
Saying you're nuts isn't defamation, since you keep supporting that opinion
with every post you make. Truth != defamation. That's the reality you can
ignore at your own peril.
--
Patrick "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey (pat...@io.com) Houston, Texas
chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php (TCI's 2005-06 Houston Aeros)
LAST GAME: Hamilton 7, Houston 1 (December 10)
NEXT GAME: Sunday, December 11 at Cleveland, 4:05
realpch
>
> How about we just go to an org and start wiping these fucks off the
> planet?
>
> You wanna wear your dumb navy uniform, wear it on Venus you mindless
> idiots.
>
> I got a couple of guns, who's with me?
>
> We gotta join first so it'll look like an inside job by a some whacked
> out nutjobs - then they won't get some sympathy shit.
>
> I thought who ever did Travolta's voice on South Park was brilliant.
> "Like ohmuhgod".
>
> I'd like to see some of you freaks actually make a difference in life.
> Do y'all vote? Do y'all ever socialize with people not on the
> internet? Do y'all ever actually activate your minds and your lazy
> asses and really ever DO ANYTHING?
>
> Cause posting to a newsgroup is not only obscure, it's safe, anonymous
> and FUCKING WORTHLESS.
>
> Where were you cocksuckers when Lisa McPherson died? Where are you
> when some college kid plunks down a chunk of cash for a dianetics book
> or a personality test.
>
> All talk, no action. Might as well be sitting here in 1950 talking
> about civil rights.
>
> Fucking DO SOMETHING.
Ok. I'm calling your mom and telling on you about the stupid gun threat.
Peach
I am being defamed here
realpch wrote:
> diabo...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > How about we just go to an org and start wiping these fucks off the
> > planet?
>
> > You wanna wear your dumb navy uniform, wear it on Venus you mindless
> > idiots.
> >
> > I got a couple of guns, who's with me?
> >
> > We gotta join first so it'll look like an inside job by a some whacked
> > out nutjobs - then they won't get some sympathy shit.
I am forwarding these terror and murder threats to Homeland security. I
don't know hold this idiot is but the Columbine shooters were also just
kids.
Barbara Schwarz
realpch
On second thought, I think I'm telling google groups instead.
Peach
realpch
>
> realpch wrote:
> > diabo...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > How about we just go to an org and start wiping these fucks off the
> > > planet?
> >
> > > You wanna wear your dumb navy uniform, wear it on Venus you mindless
> > > idiots.
> > >
> > > I got a couple of guns, who's with me?
> > >
> > > We gotta join first so it'll look like an inside job by a some whacked
> > > out nutjobs - then they won't get some sympathy shit.
>
> I am forwarding these terror and murder threats to Homeland security. I
> don't know hold this idiot is but the Columbine shooters were also just
> kids.
>
> Barbara Schwarz
Waste of time and energy. Report him to his posting host, google groups.
Peach
Vanilla Gorilla (Monkey Boy)
<sini...@liripipe.com> wrote in alt.fan.art-bell in message
<86hmp1htdnme1j97k...@4ax.com>:
> Sat, 10 Dec 2005 11:26:13 -0900, "Vanilla Gorilla (Monkey Boy)"
> <vgor...@pobox.alaska.net> licked the point of a #2 Yellow Pencil,
> and wrote:
>
> Did you hear the story about L. Ron Hubbard? He is the one who made it
> all up as an adjunct to his SF writings. When he was asked if people
> would be upset to learn it was all bullshit, he is famously reported
> to have said, "Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke."
>
>
>
> Widdy
>
> General nuisance, and proud member of the Skepticult.
> Member #159-904378-909
> My inner child is a mean little fucker
Wasn't he also the one who said, "If you really want to make a lot of
money, you have to start your own religion", shortly before starting
his own religion?
Ball of Fluff
"Vanilla Gorilla (Monkey Boy)" <vgor...@pobox.alaska.net> wrote in message
news:n9emp1tou9dgfrd03...@4ax.com...
I was discussing some allegations about the nature of Scientologists, or,
rather, CofS members, since, of course, there are, in fact, non CofS
Scientology groups.
C
Ball of Fluff
"Vanilla Gorilla (Monkey Boy)" <vgor...@pobox.alaska.net> wrote in message
news:3qiop194j5rts6b7t...@4ax.com...
>
> Wasn't he also the one who said, "If you really want to make a lot of
> money, you have to start your own religion", shortly before starting
> his own religion?
> --
He's said to have, but there are a number of critics who don't attribute
that quote to him. It's been attributed to a few different people, as well.
C
Ball of Fluff
Huh? WTF??
I'd say the ~nutcase~ here is someone who cannot tell the difference between
one contributor to a.r.s. and another.
I'm not Barbara Schwarz.I've been on this ng since 1998, posting to or
alluding to my real name- Claire Swazey, I've never sued anybody, and I'm
American.
So put in all your URLs about Barbara that you want. They don't pertain to
me.
C
Nathan Motalio
They should get a real religion instead of a stupid fake one concocted
up by a science fiction writer.
Nathan Motalio
And how many of those people actually cashed in by starting a fake religion?
Nathan Motalio
> "Nathan Motalio" <nat...@mota1io.com> wrote in message
> news:dnfn5o$5o2$3...@pita.alt.net...
>
>>Ball of Fluff wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Nathan Motalio" <nat...@mota1io.com> wrote in message
>>>news:dnf56r$l7u$0...@pita.alt.net...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Ball of Fluff wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Nathan Motalio" <nat...@mota1io.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:dn8qhi$qtq$0...@pita.alt.net...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Barbara Schwarz wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Scientologists
>>>>>>
>>>>>>are stupid, toxic freaks. They start out as gullible dumbfucks and turn
>>>>>>into robotic, evil, pieces of shit, bent on bilking new gullible
>>>>>>dumbfucks.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm a Scientologist, an ex CofS member and a critic and I assure you I
>>>>>am none of those things.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>You woulda been had you stayed on.
>>>
>>>
>>>Nope. Because I was in it all my life. Since I was in my teens.
>>
>>No WONDER you're such a fucking nutcase.
>>
>>
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Schwarz
>
>
> Huh? WTF??
>
> I'd say the ~nutcase~ here is
anyone who becomes a $cientologist.
>
>
Lermanet.com
Claire is making nothing of it again ( a nice way to say lying,
contributing to the FRAUD of scientology by her own artifice see fraud
definition HERE http://www.lermanet.com/reference/graphicindex.htm
From thE Washington Post
Here is the REST of the STORY
" I admit that Scientology's version of truth
and my own findings rarely correspond. Con-
sider one example, taken from the new me-
dia guide.
Question: Did L. Ron Hubbard state that
the way to make money was to start a religion?
Answer... No. , This is an unfounded rumor.
The rumor got started in 1948; according to the
church, when "one individual" claimed
he heard Hubbard make such a comment
during a lecture. "The only two people who
could be found who attended the very lec-
ture in 1948 denied that Mr. Hubbard ever
made the statement," says the media guide?
But the man who invited Hubbard to
speak, Sam Moskowitz, a 74-year-old sci-
ence fiction editor in Newark, swears to this
day that Hubbard made the remark in front
of 23 members of the Eastern Science Fic-
tion Association, most of whom are now
dead.
The church also ignores a 1983 book by
Lloyd Arthur Eshbach, 'Over My Shoulder.
Reflections of the Science Fiction Era."
Eshbach recounts a 1948 meeting with Hubbard
and two others in New York-
"The incident is stamped indelibly in my
mind because of one statement that Ron
Hubbard made. What led him to say what he
did I can't recall-But in so many words
Hubbard said- -'I'd like to start a religion,
That's where the money is"
Two other Hubbard contemporaries quote
him similarly in the unauthorized 1987 biog-
raphy "Bare-Faced Messiah." And two sci-
ence fiction experts contacted for this story
confirm -that Hubbard made such remarks
before be wrote his treatise on Dianetics,
which was first published in the magazine
Astounding Saence Fiction. But church offi-
cials maintain that these people are sorely
confused. The church says another famous
writer said the exact same thing----George
Orwell, who wrote to a friend in 1938 that
there might be a lot of cash in starting a
new religion-
"It seems that Orwell's comment has been
misattributed to Mr. Hubbard," the church
media guide tells reporters.
Only one problem: The Scientology opera-
tive who says he came up with the Orwell
explanation is Robert Vaughn Young, who
quit the central church in 1989 after 20
years as a spokesman. While researching the
life of the Founder, Young says he talked to
three Hubbard associates from the ' '
fiction days who remembered Hubbard talk-
ing about getting out of the penny-a-word
game for the more lucrative field of religion.
Young ignored those comments, of course.
and by a stroke of luck came up with the
Orwell quote.
The irony is beyond Orwellian. But the
man 'who wrote '1984" would certainly relish
the scenario. The Hubbard quote gets sent
down the memory tube, replaced by another,
more suitable source. Over time, as Orwell
understood. a lie can become the truth. Who
will dispute it?"
complet text here with links
http://www.lermanet.com/cos/lerma.html
Arnaldo Lerma
Lermanet.com Exposing the CON
I'd prefer to die speaking my mind than live fearing to speake
If the Borg were to breed with the Ferengi you'd get Scientology!
29 November 1995 - Memorandum Opinion Judge Leonie Brinkema
"the Court is now convinced that the primary motivation of RTC in suing Lerma, DGS and The Post is to stifle criticism of Scientology in general and to harass its critics. "
The internet is the Liberty Tree
http://www.lermanet.com/faqs.html#psychiatry
http://www.lermanet.com/exit/hubbard-the-hypnotist.htm
http://www.lermanet.com/scientology/altreligionscientology-killfile-settings.htm
http://www.lermanet.com/scientologynews/crowley-hubbard-666.htm
http://www.lermanet.com/scientologynews/flint-suicides-in-scientology-040383.htm
both with IMAGES!!
"Scientologists believe that most human problems
can be traced to lingering spirits of an extraterrestrial
people massacred by their ruler, Xenu, over 75 million
years ago. These spirits attach themselves by "clusters"
to individuals in the contemporary world, causing
spiritual harm and negatively influencing the lives
of their hosts"
[Judge Leonie Brinkema 4 Oct 96 Memorandum Opinion]
What do we get from getting people out of scientology?
We create an individual who has become a Houdini of
all mind traps.. folks who won't be fooled again.
People who can DE-program, People who can spring mental
traps..
We create, by freeing someone of scientology, a being
who has the ability to break the strongest slave chains
of all.
Those forged of lies. (c) Arnaldo Lerma
Lermanet.com
Ball of Fluff
Then I guess you disapprove of a lot of critics of Scientology, many of whom
were in CofS.
And I see you've carefully snipped everything in the previous post
pertaining to your goof.
Heh.
C
Ball of Fluff
"Nathan Motalio" <nat...@mota1io.com> wrote in message
news:dnhuvv$3ee$1...@pita.alt.net...
>>
>> I was discussing some allegations about the nature of Scientologists, or,
>> rather, CofS members, since, of course, there are, in fact, non CofS
>> Scientology groups.
>
>
> They should get a real religion instead of a stupid fake one concocted up
> by a science fiction writer.
Like all the made up ones with golden tablets, angels, saints, devils,
buddhas, hells, heavens- like those?
Nah...been dere, done dat...
C
Barbara Schwarz
Nathan Motalio wrote:
> Ball of Fluff wrote:
>
> > "Nathan Motalio" <nat...@mota1io.com> wrote in message
> > news:dnfn5o$5o2$3...@pita.alt.net...
Take a hike and when you can't walk else, then roll somewhere else!
nos1eep
<getof...@fluffentology.com> spewed the following drivel:
"Contemplate the serene vacuity of Gumbyism."
__
-nos1eep
Bookman
Nevertheless, Elron's been *quoted* as having said that, by several
different sources, not all of them neccessarily critics. And by
coincedence, the quotes from him about "starting a religion", came
before he started a religion.
ESL!
--
Bookman -The Official Overseer of Kooks and Trolls in AFA-B
Kazoo Konspirator #668 (The Neighbor of the Beast)
Clue-Bat Wrangler
Keeper of the Nickname Lists
Despotic Kookologist of the New World Order
Monthly Hammer of Thor award, October 2005
"I'd love to kill you in a ring" - Bartmo gets all touchy-feely
"****SPV....... So yes I am an idiot."
"ASK THE NWS, YOUR TAX DOLLAR GOES TO THEM NOT TO DR.TURI."
- Mr. Turi explains how to accurately predict hurricanes
http://www.insurgent.org/~kook-faq/afa-b/
http://www.insurgent.org/~kook-faq/afa-b/index.html
Nathan Motalio
Yep. Damaged goods.
Nathan Motalio
Yes, as idiotic as they are (especially the Mormon religion) most are a
damn sight better than $cientology, and they tend to be based on
spirituality, not some cockamamie charlatan's idea of wacky "science".
Nathan Motalio
> Nathan Motalio wrote:
>
>>Ball of Fluff wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Nathan Motalio" <nat...@mota1io.com> wrote in message
>>>news:dnfn5o$5o2$3...@pita.alt.net...
>
>
> Take a hike and when you can't walk else, then roll somewhere else!
Learn to write in English, you nutcase.
Ball of Fluff
Hey, Tory, Michael Pattinson, Arnie Lerma, Warrior...this guy sez yer
damaged goods!
HAHAHAHAHA