A fraudulent claim by Hubbard
Warrior
_Scientology: 8-80_ that he was a Civil Engineer and a Doctor
of Scientology. See alt.binaries.scientology for the image.
Warrior - Sunshine disinfects
"Scientology: it's about deception."
http://warrior.xenu.ca
tobyty...@yahoo.com
So...what are you saying...that not everything L. Ron Hubbard said was
TRUE???
Peace,
Toby
"Sure, not smoking ENOUGH can cause cancer..." --- L. Ron Hubbard
roger gonnet
"Warrior" <war...@xenu.ca> a écrit dans le message de news:
116025471.0...@drn.newsguy.com...
> As anyone can see, Hubbard claimed on the cover of his book
> _Scientology: 8-80_ that he was a Civil Engineer and a Doctor
> of Scientology. See alt.binaries.scientology for the image.
I went to buy "dianetics" in 1974 because I had gotten a flier from a
franchise holder in Paris. The flier said Hubbard was an engineer in nuclear
things...
And now, we can see all sorts of lies about him in full books published by
the Liars Main Company, scientology Bridge Publications. Like "L. Ron
Hubbard the adventurer; L. Ron Hubbard the poet; L. Ron Huybbard the
Musician; L. Ron. Hubbard the Humanist (that's certainly the worse
allegation about this crazy egocentric liar).
r
Spacetraveler
"Warrior" <war...@xenu.ca> wrote in message
news:116025471.0...@drn.newsguy.com...
> As anyone can see, Hubbard claimed on the cover of his book
> _Scientology: 8-80_ that he was a Civil Engineer and a Doctor
> of Scientology. See alt.binaries.scientology for the image.
Scientology 8-80
by
L. Ron Hubbard, C.E., D.Scn.
Dean Emeritus of Science
Hubbard College
And this is a fraudulent claim?
Still not informing the ARS readers about those SP/PTS packs, did ya?
http://groups.google.se/groups?hl=sv&lr=&selm=x%25Uzd.12118%24d5.105929%40ne
wsb.telia.net
I am Warrior, I like very much to continue running...
Spacetraveler
Peter Widmer
Scientology: 8-80
EDITORIAL NOTE 1952
L. Ron Hubbard was one of the first students of nuclear physics in the
United States.
In 1932 he believed that Life and its behavior obeyed natural laws of
the same order as electrons and other particles of motion. He began a
study and search which led him through many fields of science and across
many continents.
In 1948 he published the Original Thesis on his findings for the
medical and psychiatric professions. In 1950 he permitted a popular work
to be published and was considerably astonished that it became a best
seller quickly. Since 1950 he has worked constantly upon the original
project of discovering and conduiting the source of Life Energy and with
this work announces the attainment of that fact.
<...>
Peter
--
Peter Widmer <pwi...@quicknet.ch>
3802 Waldegg <http://www.pewid.ch>
Praxis
Spacetraveler wrote:
> "Warrior" <war...@xenu.ca> wrote in message
> news:116025471.0...@drn.newsguy.com...
> > As anyone can see, Hubbard claimed on the cover of his book
> > _Scientology: 8-80_ that he was a Civil Engineer and a Doctor
> > of Scientology. See alt.binaries.scientology for the image.
>
> Scientology 8-80
> by
> L. Ron Hubbard, C.E., D.Scn.
> Dean Emeritus of Science
> Hubbard College
>
> And this is a fraudulent claim?
Yes, it is a fraudulent claim. Not only is it a fraudulent claim by
Hubbard, but you have just made a fraudulent claim about the picture.
The "Dean Emeritus of Science Hubbard College" is not in the picture
Warrior posted.
Nevertheless, here is how L Ron Hubbard lied:
From
http://www.factnet.org/Books/ScandalOfScientology/sos-20.html
In his biographies Hubbard conveniently omitted or altered his
educational qualifications. In his Brief Biography, he said he had
graduated from Columbian University and in Who's Who in the Southwest
(they claim he supplied the data) he said he graduated in Civil
Engineering from George Washington University. (He has sometimes used a
C.E. after his name.) Hubbard has even dedicated one of his books to
his "instructors in atomic and molecular phenomenon, mathematics and
the humanities at George Washington University and at Princeton," and
in his Brief Biography he said he "excelled in but thoroughly detested
his subjects."
Actually his grades were appallingly low. Although he did do well in
his engineering and English courses, the man who frequently calls
himself a nuclear physicist got a D in one physics course, an E in
another, and in the atomic and molecular physics courses that he most
often emphasizes (to the degree of thanking his instructors for it), he
received an F. With those grades, along with similar ones in
mathematics, it is not surprising that Hubbard was placed on probation
after his first year in college and didn't return for his second -- and
of course never received the degrees that he claims he has.
As for the Princeton School of Government that he says he attended, it
was the Princeton School of Military Government, and he went there only
three months in what was possibly a war service course.
Hubbard also claims to have a Ph.D. from Sequoia University. Sequoia
was originally called the College of Drugless Healing, and might have
been called the College of Instant Learning, since it has been traced
by the United States government to a residential dwelling in Los
Angeles which operated through a post office box and delivered mail
order doctorates without the formality of exams, or for that matter, of
classroom attendance.
In fact, Hubbard didn't even have to pay for that degree -- it was an
Honorary Degreeor his work in Dianetics. A Harvard student discovered
that Hubbard was also on the staff of the school; might Sequoia be
another name for one of Hubbard's own establishments? (Hubbard's
establishments have variously been called Hubbard College, Hubbard
International School for Children, The Apostolic Church of Theological
Scientologists, The Academy of Religious Arts and Sciences, Church of
American Science, Church of the New Faith, Scientology Consultants for
Industrial Efficiency, National Academy for American Psychology.
Nonetheless, Hubbard apparently considered this "doctorate" to be
significant because he renounced it in a public notice:
I, L. Ron Hubbard of Saint Hill Manor East Grinstead Sussex having
reviewed the damage being done in our society with nuclear physics and
psychiatry by persons calling themselves "Doctors" do hereby resign in
protest my university degree as a Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.)
anticipating an early public outcry against anyone called "Doctor" and
although not in any way connected with bombs or "psychiatric treatment"
or treatment of such and interested only and always in philosophy and
the total freedom of the human spirit, I wish no association of any
kind with these persons and so do publicly declare and request my
friends and the public not to refer to me in any way with this title.
Even so, Hubbard is referred to as "doctor," has used the title
himself, and he does indeed have a D. Scn., or Doctor of Scientology .
But that even this degree is haphazardly awarded became apparent when
Hubbard's son, L. Ron Hubbard Jr., who also has a D. Scn, testified at
the United States Court of Claims that he didn't have to do anything
special to get the degree, and in fact, wasn't certain whether he got
his Bachelor of Scientology before or after he got his Doctorate of
Scientology .
Spacetraveler
"Praxis" <janee...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1106059998....@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Spacetraveler wrote:
> > "Warrior" <war...@xenu.ca> wrote in message
> > news:116025471.0...@drn.newsguy.com...
> > > As anyone can see, Hubbard claimed on the cover of his book
> > > _Scientology: 8-80_ that he was a Civil Engineer and a Doctor
> > > of Scientology. See alt.binaries.scientology for the image.
> >
> > Scientology 8-80
> > by
> > L. Ron Hubbard, C.E., D.Scn.
> > Dean Emeritus of Science
> > Hubbard College
> >
> > And this is a fraudulent claim?
>
> Yes, it is a fraudulent claim. Not only is it a fraudulent claim by
> Hubbard, but you have just made a fraudulent claim about the picture.
> The "Dean Emeritus of Science Hubbard College" is not in the picture
> Warrior posted.
So, but it is in my copy from 1957.
> Nevertheless, here is how L Ron Hubbard lied:
Of course, this is getting tiring.
Spacetraveler
Warrior
>>
>> As anyone can see, Hubbard claimed on the cover of his book
>> _Scientology: 8-80_ that he was a Civil Engineer and a Doctor
>> of Scientology. See alt.binaries.scientology for the image.
In article <1z4Hd.14596$d5.1...@newsb.telia.net>, Spacetraveler
says...
>
>Scientology 8-80
>by
>L. Ron Hubbard, C.E., D.Scn.
>Dean Emeritus of Science
>Hubbard College
>
>And this is a fraudulent claim?
Yes. Hubbard was not a Civil Engineer. I'm talking about his 1952
edition of the book. See alt.binaries.scientology for a scan of the
cover.
>Still not informing the ARS readers about those SP/PTS [sic] packs,
>did ya [sic]?
It's been over a month since I answered your question of what is below
the policy in my packs. You've repeatedly called me a liar and have
claimed I didn't answer your question, when in fact I answered it long
ago. Why you have continued to avoid acknowledging my answer, while
repeatedly calling me a liar is beyond me. You're like many other Scienos
I've known, in that you only see what you want to see.
>http://groups.google.se/groups?hl=sv&lr=&selm=x%25Uzd.12118%24d5.105929%40ne
>wsb.telia.net
>
>I am Warrior,
Find out who you really are. :)
>I like very much to continue running...
Jogging is good exercise. But trying to have an intelligent conversation
with idiots like you is a waste of time. And I've now spent all the time I
care to spend responding to your idiocy.
Warrior - Sunshine disinfects
http://warrior.xenu.ca
Spacetraveler
> >Warrior wrote in <116025471.0...@drn.newsguy.com>:
> >>
> >> As anyone can see, Hubbard claimed on the cover of his book
> >> _Scientology: 8-80_ that he was a Civil Engineer and a Doctor
> >> of Scientology. See alt.binaries.scientology for the image.
>
> In article <1z4Hd.14596$d5.1...@newsb.telia.net>, Spacetraveler
> says...
> >
> >Scientology 8-80
> >by
> >L. Ron Hubbard, C.E., D.Scn.
> >Dean Emeritus of Science
> >Hubbard College
> >
> >And this is a fraudulent claim?
>
> Yes. Hubbard was not a Civil Engineer. I'm talking about his 1952
> edition of the book. See alt.binaries.scientology for a scan of the
> cover.
>
> >Still not informing the ARS readers about those SP/PTS [sic] packs,
> >did ya [sic]?
>
> It's been over a month since I answered your question of what is below
> the policy in my packs. You've repeatedly called me a liar and have
> claimed I didn't answer your question, when in fact I answered it long
> ago. Why you have continued to avoid acknowledging my answer, while
> repeatedly calling me a liar is beyond me. You're like many other Scienos
> I've known, in that you only see what you want to see.
You ARE a liar, I have saved all the threads where we discuss the subject.
It is NOT there. You don't tell us WHERE you answered that, also you REFUSE
to reiterate that respons.
Funny, so much text claiming that you did respons, instead of simply saying
what it says underneats all those references in the pack!
>
>
>http://groups.google.se/groups?hl=sv&lr=&selm=x%25Uzd.12118%24d5.105929%40n
e
> >wsb.telia.net
> >
> >I am Warrior,
>
> Find out who you really are. :)
Rather WHERE you are...
>
> >I like very much to continue running...
>
> Jogging is good exercise. But trying to have an intelligent conversation
> with idiots like you is a waste of time. And I've now spent all the time
I
> care to spend responding to your idiocy.
The ARS readers see what you are doing, they are not stupid. And again you
obviously RUN, liar!
My posts are all pretty much straigtforward. Yours however are often not,
people see these things.
Spacetraveler
Spacetraveler
> >Warrior wrote in <116025471.0...@drn.newsguy.com>:
> >>
> >> As anyone can see, Hubbard claimed on the cover of his book
> >> _Scientology: 8-80_ that he was a Civil Engineer and a Doctor
> >> of Scientology. See alt.binaries.scientology for the image.
>
> In article <1z4Hd.14596$d5.1...@newsb.telia.net>, Spacetraveler
> says...
> >
> >Scientology 8-80
> >by
> >L. Ron Hubbard, C.E., D.Scn.
> >Dean Emeritus of Science
> >Hubbard College
> >
> >And this is a fraudulent claim?
>
> Yes. Hubbard was not a Civil Engineer.
So, he was not... your data for that claim?
> I'm talking about his 1952
> edition of the book. See alt.binaries.scientology for a scan of the
> cover.
I've have no idea how to get to this alt.binaries.scientology, not on the
google group search.
Do you know what C.E. stands for that I quote?
Spacetraveler
arnie lerma
Yes they do, and your presence, space-for-brains, conduct and lame
excuse for intellect do their part, as well as we do ours, to dissuade
the public from wanting to have anything to do with scientology, other
than banning it.
And if there were one OT in Scientology you wouldnt be reading this
line...
Arnie Lerma
Repost follows:
http://lermanet2.com/cos/8steps.html
8 Steps out of Scientology
preface: Try the following exercise - for current members of
Scientology:
this mental reboot' program is (c) Arnie Lerma
1) Consider that the 'mind' is programmable
2) Whose program are you running?
3) goto 1)
If Scientology is a bridge to OT levels of super dooper powers
why is this website here?
Title: 9 steps out of Scientology
Author: Arnie Lerma
Date: 31 Aug 1997 17:01:27 -0700
I was in the cult and on staff for 10 years... here are the stages I
have seen... as one exits the 'Hubbardian' mind control program....
1) There is something wrong here, if this is so great, then
why is (______) going on?
[ insert whatever atrocity you have recently witnessed ]
2) The guys at the top must be crazy
3) Miscavige and crew are evil demons from another dimension
[ or something similar ]
4) Hubbard went crazy at the end .....
5) Hubbard went crazy in 1966
6) Hubbard was mad from the start.
7) This whole thing is a complete fraud
8) my god, its a criminal organization... with criminal convictions
all over the world... and it was only about money
9) realization that THERE ARE NO OT's THERE!
( if there were just ONE OT in Scientology you would not be reading
this line of text )
(c) Arnie Lerma
http://lermanet2.com/cos/8steps.html
linked version on webpage
Why Dianetics is so Hard to Read AND how Shock Therapy helped Win WWII
Want to know why Dianetics is so well known as being hard to read
and uses so many odd words ?
That's because Hubbard , who bragged about how fast he was able to
type out Dianetics... used William Sargant's pre-publication paper,
which he got while he was in the same navy hospital that William
Sargant was a clinician in...( Sargant, from UK, served a stint as a
visiting professor at a nearby university in the US) After taking a
copy of William Sargant's paper, ( which was being circulated amongst
recovering wounded for comment ) he placed it on one side of his
typewriter, he then placed a synonym book on the other side, you see
Hubbard had to replace the key words that William Sargant had used
with words out of the synonym book, to disguise the TRUE SOURCE of
Dianetics.
Which is why Hubbard demonizes Psychiatry -or- how Shock treatment
helped win WWII
So that you will NEVER NEVER read William Sargant's Battle for the
Mind, you see William Sargant was the top PSYCHIATRIST in UK,
who developed techniques and was searching for ways to treat shell
shocked british soldiers reeling from the Blitzkreig tactics of Rommel
in the northern Sahara.
In Dianetics, Hubbard demonized 'shock treatment"
Background: Pavlov did many scientific and famously well documented
studies of conditioning techniques using dogs... some dogs were
trained to SALIVATE when a very small electric current was run through
their PAWS....
One day in an early spring thaw, the ice on the river broke up, and
jammed up at a bridge, creating a flash flood of icy cold water.
It was on a weekend, and no one was at the lab and the roads were
blocked by rising water... by the time Pavlov's assistants got to the
lab, they found the dogs in a terrified state, swimming for their
lives, noses at the tops of their cages.
Because the cage doors were lower down, they had to pull the terrified
animals DOWN through the icy water, and then up again to safety..
This TRAUMA, this "shock" caused Pavlov to make his most important and
now famous discovery... he found that because of this 'shock'; the
dogs either LOST their prior conditioning or reversed it completely!
Because of the sheer quantity of walking shellshocked british solders
that were incapable of fighting due to Rommel's blitzkreig tactics,
William Sargant was searching for a means of treatment that was FASTER
than the long winded, and often ineffective ABERACTIVE
THERAPY....(dianetics) and based on Pavlov's discoveries, another
fast technique was tried that was very very workable. SHOCK
treatment. - be it shock treatment by ice-water bath, insulin shock,
or electro shock.....
or in my case...
Skydiving....
So if the British had used Aberactive Therapy ( DIANETICS) because it
took so long and didn't work well, and required so much training to
do,
many of those shell shocked soldiers would have been a very long time
getting back to the battle front in a state able to function
effectively.
So one might posit, that SHOCK Therapy helped win WWII
!!
And THAT my friends is why Dianetics is famously hard to read!
The key ideas were rewritten from the worlds biggest PSYCHIATRIST,
using a synonym book!
(c) Arnie Lerma
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
Psst, hey buddy..Wanna buy a Bridge? - Scientology scam exposed -
http://lermanet.com/cos/motivate.html
Psst, hey buddy, want to buy a bridge?
http://www.drasticmedia.com/Scientology.html
Experience the 'spiritual' gains of $cientology auditing "technology".
* Make your conscience disappear!
* Have all your innermost secrets recorded in case we need them...
* Lose all touch with reality, and become lost in the endless world of
Hubbardian Cosmology!
http://www.lermanet2.com/exit/FINAL.htm
* Discover that you are infested with spirits of dead space aliens!
http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/OTIII/minton-essay.txt
* Spend years removing them! (**See fine print below)
* Sell everything you own, because you will become convinced that the
"next" secret level will make it all make sense...
* Have your sense of humanity expertly removed by our 'standard
tech-trained' brainwashers.
* Lose all inhibitions for evil or despicable conduct - as you will
shortly feel that any act is justifiable after you have been convinced
http://www.lermanet2.com/persecution/
that you are in possesion of the "ULTIMATE SOLUTION" for mankind..
And rest easy, with the calm self assurance that your "donations"are
supporting a platoon of the most expensive lawyers in the world....
http://www.lermanet2.com/scientologyscandals/silence.htm
that are needed to ensure that the FRAUD of $cientology
http://www.lermanet2.com/LRonHubbard.htm
continues...
" Scientologists believe that most human problems can be traced to
lingering spirits of an extraterrestrial people massacred by their
ruler, Xenu, over 75 million years ago. These spirits attach
themselves by "clusters" to individuals in the contemporary world,
causing spiritual harm and negatively influencing the lives of their
hosts ". USDJ Judge Leonie Brinkema 4 Oct 96 Memorandum Opinion, RTC
vs Lerma
And if you DON'T see any of these "Body Thetans" or Spirits of dead
space aliens you are required to re-do all your lower levels (
sometimes $360,000 ) - Its the Emperors New Clothes devised as a scam!
Hubbard Legalized Robbery by calling it belief!
Arnie Lerma
A Very Merry and Very Ex-Scientologist
Need help getting a loved one out of Scientology
Call me... 703 241 1498
but please read The Art of Deception I and II first
http://www.lermanet.com/exit/FINAL.htm
http://www.lermanet.com/exit/FINAL2.htm
If the Ferengi were to breed with the Borg you'd get Scientology
http://www.lermanet.com/cos/comedy.html
The internet is the Liberty Tree of the 90's
http://www.lermanet.com/cos/libertyl.html
Ex-Scientologist staff member
apoligizes to John Travolta, Mayor Gabe Cazares
and the Citizens of Clearwater
http://www.lermanet.com/garyweber/
Help getting someone OUT of Scientology
http://www.lermanet.com/scientologyhelp/main.html
roger gonnet
"Peter Widmer" <pwi...@quicknet.ch> a écrit dans le message de news:
csill8$4oc$1...@atlas.ip-plus.net...
> roger gonnet wrote:
>> "Warrior" <war...@xenu.ca> a écrit dans le message de news:
>> 116025471.0...@drn.newsguy.com...
>>>As anyone can see, Hubbard claimed on the cover of his book
>>>_Scientology: 8-80_ that he was a Civil Engineer and a Doctor
>>>of Scientology. See alt.binaries.scientology for the image.
>>
>> I went to buy "dianetics" in 1974 because I had gotten a flier from a
>> franchise holder in Paris. The flier said Hubbard was an engineer in
>> nuclear things...
>>
>> And now, we can see all sorts of lies about him in full books published
>> by the Liars Main Company, scientology Bridge Publications. Like "L. Ron
>> Hubbard the adventurer; L. Ron Hubbard the poet; L. Ron Huybbard the
>> Musician; L. Ron. Hubbard the Humanist (that's certainly the worse
>> allegation about this crazy egocentric liar).
>>
>
> Scientology: 8-80
>
> EDITORIAL NOTE 1952
> L. Ron Hubbard was one of the first students of nuclear physics in the
> United States.
>
> In 1932 he believed that Life and its behavior obeyed natural laws of the
> same order as electrons and other particles of motion. He began a study
> and search which led him through many fields of science and across many
> continents.
>
> In 1948 he published the Original Thesis on his findings for the medical
> and psychiatric professions. In 1950 he permitted
he permitted? Wow. he asked politely to his publisher, why!
a popular work
> to be published and was considerably astonished that it became a best
> seller quickly. Since 1950 he has worked constantly upon the original
> project of discovering and conduiting the source of Life Energy and with
> this work announces the attainment of that fact.
> <...>
super.
roger
Praxis
Spacetraveler wrote:
> "Warrior" <war...@xenu.ca> wrote in message
> news:116100361.0...@drn.newsguy.com...
> > >Warrior wrote in <116025471.0...@drn.newsguy.com>:
> > >>
> > >> As anyone can see, Hubbard claimed on the cover of his book
> > >> _Scientology: 8-80_ that he was a Civil Engineer and a Doctor
> > >> of Scientology. See alt.binaries.scientology for the image.
> >
> > In article <1z4Hd.14596$d5.1...@newsb.telia.net>, Spacetraveler
> > says...
> > >
> > >Scientology 8-80
> > >by
> > >L. Ron Hubbard, C.E., D.Scn.
> > >Dean Emeritus of Science
> > >Hubbard College
> > >
> > >And this is a fraudulent claim?
> >
> > Yes. Hubbard was not a Civil Engineer.
>
> So, he was not... your data for that claim?
Errr... so you agree L ron Hubbard was not a Civil Engineer?
> > I'm talking about his 1952
> > edition of the book. See alt.binaries.scientology for a scan of
the
> > cover.
>
> I've have no idea how to get to this alt.binaries.scientology, not on
the
> google group search.
If you asked a.r.s. humbly and politely, the good citizens of a.r.s.
might tell you how to access alt.binaries.scientology.
> Do you know what C.E. stands for that I quote?
>
> Spacetraveler
You didn't "quote" it. It's on the cover of the book attached to L Ron
Hubbard's name.
Why don't you have a look at the following list?:
A.B. or B.A.
Bachelor of Arts
A.M. or M.A.
Master of Arts
B.B.S.
Bachelor of Business Science
B.C.L.
Bachelor of Civil Law
B.D.
Bachelor of Divinity
B.Lit, B.Litt. or Lit.B.
Bachelor of Letters (or Literature)
B.L.L. or L.L.B.
Bachelor of Laws
B.S., B.Sc. or Sc.B.
Bachelor of Science
C.E.
Civil Engineer
Ch.E.
Chemical Engineer
D.C.L.
Doctor of Civil Law
D.D. or S.T.D.
Doctor of Divinity
D.D.S.
Doctor of Dental Surgery
D.Litt, or Litt.D.
Doctor of Letters (or Literature)
D.M.D.
Doctor of Dental Medicine
D.S. or D.Sc.
Doctor of Science
D.V.M.
Doctor of Veterinary Medicine
E.E.
Electrical Engineer
J.D.
Doctor of Law
L.H.D.
Doctor of Humanities
L.L.D.
Doctor of Laws
M.B.A.
Master of Business Administration
M.C.E.
Master of Civil Engineering
M.D.
Doctor of Medicine
M.E.
Mechanical Engineer
M.S. or M.Sc.
Master of Science
Mus. B.
Bachelor of Music
Mus.D.
Doctor of Music
Ph.D.
Doctor of Philosophy
Ph.G.
Graduate in Pharmacy
S.T.B.
Bachelor of Sacred Theology
V.S.
Veterinary Surgeon
Spacetraveler
"arnie lerma" <ale...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:fevsu0lgvjnnp84pj...@4ax.com...
Is not the issue here... This post is about what Warrior says he has done,
has not done and all that. Does your respons mean that you defend him no
matter what? All you can do to help him, to help him locate where he
supplied the information he claimed he gave. There is nothing else you can
do. And if you can not supply that, then.. well.. then we know for sure what
you are about... .-) Again a slip Arnie...
Spacetraveler
Spacetraveler
>
> Spacetraveler wrote:
> > "Warrior" <war...@xenu.ca> wrote in message
> > news:116100361.0...@drn.newsguy.com...
> > > >Warrior wrote in <116025471.0...@drn.newsguy.com>:
> > > >>
> > > >> As anyone can see, Hubbard claimed on the cover of his book
> > > >> _Scientology: 8-80_ that he was a Civil Engineer and a Doctor
> > > >> of Scientology. See alt.binaries.scientology for the image.
> > >
> > > In article <1z4Hd.14596$d5.1...@newsb.telia.net>, Spacetraveler
> > > says...
> > > >
> > > >Scientology 8-80
> > > >by
> > > >L. Ron Hubbard, C.E., D.Scn.
> > > >Dean Emeritus of Science
> > > >Hubbard College
> > > >
> > > >And this is a fraudulent claim?
> > >
> > > Yes. Hubbard was not a Civil Engineer.
> >
> > So, he was not... your data for that claim?
>
> Errr... so you agree L ron Hubbard was not a Civil Engineer?
No idea if he was actually, I don't care very much of some title someone has
or not has. I look at what they have to say. It's just that I don't like
empty claims.
>
> > > I'm talking about his 1952
> > > edition of the book. See alt.binaries.scientology for a scan of
> the
> > > cover.
> >
> > I've have no idea how to get to this alt.binaries.scientology, not on
> the
> > google group search.
>
> If you asked a.r.s. humbly and politely, the good citizens of a.r.s.
> might tell you how to access alt.binaries.scientology.
Well, if someone would be so kind?
>
> > Do you know what C.E. stands for that I quote?
> >
> > Spacetraveler
>
> You didn't "quote" it. It's on the cover of the book attached to L Ron
> Hubbard's name.
>
> Why don't you have a look at the following list?:
C.E. would have sufficed. I knew that, I just wondered if Warrior knew.
Spacetraveler
Susan
|| "Praxis" <janee...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
|| news:1106153525....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
|||
||| Spacetraveler wrote:
|||| "Warrior" <war...@xenu.ca> wrote in message
|||| news:116100361.0...@drn.newsguy.com...
|||||| Warrior wrote in <116025471.0...@drn.newsguy.com>:
|||||||
||||||| As anyone can see, Hubbard claimed on the cover of his book
||||||| _Scientology: 8-80_ that he was a Civil Engineer and a Doctor
||||||| of Scientology. See alt.binaries.scientology for the image.
|||||
||||| In article <1z4Hd.14596$d5.1...@newsb.telia.net>, Spacetraveler
||||| says...
||||||
|||||| Scientology 8-80
|||||| by
|||||| L. Ron Hubbard, C.E., D.Scn.
|||||| Dean Emeritus of Science
|||||| Hubbard College
||||||
|||||| And this is a fraudulent claim?
|||||
||||| Yes. Hubbard was not a Civil Engineer.
||||
|||| So, he was not... your data for that claim?
|||
||| Errr... so you agree L ron Hubbard was not a Civil Engineer?
||
|| No idea if he was actually, I don't care very much of some title
|| someone has or not has. I look at what they have to say. It's just
|| that I don't like empty claims.
Spacetraveler,
So you admit below that Hubbard claimed as you can see, on the book cover
that he was a civil engineer while the evidence proves that he was not and
held no such degree and, above you say that you do not like empty claims.
Spacetraveler, do you have even the slightest clue as to how ridiculous your
postings are to the readers of this NG? This is doing so much for the cult
of scientology.
Thanks,
Susan
Spacetraveler
"Susan" <enlighte...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:U9CdnZgdd8P...@comcast.com...
What evidence?
> and, above you say that you do not like empty claims.
The empty claim of saying he was not 'something' without showing the
evidence for it.
>
> Spacetraveler, do you have even the slightest clue as to how ridiculous
your
> postings are to the readers of this NG? This is doing so much for the cult
> of scientology.
Well, unfortunately I do not support the church if that's what you mean.
Spacetraveler
Devoid
"Spacetraveler" <spacet...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kECHd.14757$d5.1...@newsb.telia.net...
Another illegal Pc. trying to get auditing.
How's that A to E coming?
Devoid
Spacetraveler
"Devoid" <n...@home.com> wrote in message
news:nhTHd.54683$W33.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
That's harrashment.... you stop it or I'll put you out of my system...
Spacetraveler
Devoid
Sounds like something said to a cop at the
end of a wild saturday night.
Are you Drunk?
Devoid
Barbara Schwarz
developed Dianetics on his own, he did not need any dishonest quack or
psych to inspire him.
Arnie mentions William Sargant as the real originator of Dianetics, but
check out what the
1977 Senate hearing found on William Sargant:
"In therapy, the British narco-analyst William Sargent recommends that
the
therapist deliberately distort the facts of the patient's
life-experience to
achieve heightened emotional response and abreaction. [27]" - page 32
(Note
they mispelled Sargant's name)
" 27. 27. Sargant, W., & Slater, E. Physical methods of treatment in
psychiatry. (3rd. ed.) Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1954."
REFERENCE:
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/history/e1950/mkultra/Hearing04.h...
That is not Dianetics.
Otherwise, Ron did not write the covers of books. Non-Scientologists,
people like Arnie Lerma, Roger Gonnet, the Rice brothers, Jesse Prince
and more infiltrated the SCN orgs before. What makes you think that
infiltrators did not made confusing or false claims to be later blamed
on L. Ron Hubbard?
Also, since when is Nibbs, an impostor "son", a credible source?
Barbara Schwarz
Warrior
_Scientology: 8-80_ that he was a Civil Engineer and a Doctor
Another one of Hubbard's many fraudulent claims can be seen
webbed at this page on Caroline Letkeman's website:
http://www.carolineletkeman.org/refund/docs/hco-info-ltr-1961-04-14-pe-handout.html
In the issue webbed at this link, Hubbard refers to himself as
"L. Ron Hubbard, C.E., Ph.D., a nuclear physicist". The issue,
HCO Information Letter of April 14, 1961 "PE Handout", was
first published in 1961. The same false credentials were being
claimed by Hubbard in _OEC Volume VI_, second US printing of
1976, on page 196. The same fraudulent claim is again repeated
in the 1991 edition of _OEC Volume VI_, on page 293.
Warrior
Spacetraveler asked:
>
>Do you know what C.E. stands for that I quote?
Since the word "cabbage" is slang "money", I suppose it might
mean "Cabbage Earner". This is appropriate for Hubbard.
But then again, given Hubbard's bent for verbosity, C.E. could
also mean Chief Ear-bender.
It could also mean Canned Eightball, since "canned" means
"drunk", and "eightball" means "a maladjusted person".
Tell me where Hubbard supposedly earned his Ph.D. that he
claimed in HCO Info Letter of 14 April 1961:
http://www.carolineletkeman.org/refund/docs/hco-info-ltr-1961-04-14-pe-handout.html
Spacetraveler
> In article <AEoHd.127998$dP1.4...@newsc.telia.net>,
> Spacetraveler asked:
> >
> >Do you know what C.E. stands for that I quote?
>
> Since the word "cabbage" is slang "money", I suppose it might
> mean "Cabbage Earner". This is appropriate for Hubbard.
>
> But then again, given Hubbard's bent for verbosity, C.E. could
> also mean Chief Ear-bender.
>
> It could also mean Canned Eightball, since "canned" means
> "drunk", and "eightball" means "a maladjusted person".
>
> Tell me where Hubbard supposedly earned his Ph.D. that he
> claimed in HCO Info Letter of 14 April 1961:
>
http://www.carolineletkeman.org/refund/docs/hco-info-ltr-1961-04-14-pe-hando
ut.html
I don't know really, and I dont' care about it either. I am more interested
in data. A person who could compile such a technology in my opinion is not
exaggerating if he had some of those things. Who am I to verify, it is
irrelevant.
By the way, LRH did not write this Info letter. then how could he be the
claimer in this?
Still refusing to inform the ARS readers about waht it says underneath all
these references about fairgame in the old volumes, is it not.unning
Warrior, of course you do... I think you lost quite a bit of your
credibility around here, not by the die-hards naturally. But the newcomers
around here.
Warrior, the liar and manipulator...
http://groups.google.se/groups?hl=sv&lr=&selm=x%25Uzd.12118%24d5.105929%40ne
wsb.telia.net
Spacetraveler
Spacetraveler
>
> "Warrior" <war...@xenu.ca> wrote in message
> news:116283806.0...@drn.newsguy.com...
> > In article <AEoHd.127998$dP1.4...@newsc.telia.net>,
> > Spacetraveler asked:
> > >
> > >Do you know what C.E. stands for that I quote?
> >
> > Since the word "cabbage" is slang "money", I suppose it might
> > mean "Cabbage Earner". This is appropriate for Hubbard.
> >
> > But then again, given Hubbard's bent for verbosity, C.E. could
> > also mean Chief Ear-bender.
> >
> > It could also mean Canned Eightball, since "canned" means
> > "drunk", and "eightball" means "a maladjusted person".
> >
> > Tell me where Hubbard supposedly earned his Ph.D. that he
> > claimed in HCO Info Letter of 14 April 1961:
> >
>
http://www.carolineletkeman.org/refund/docs/hco-info-ltr-1961-04-14-pe-hando
> ut.html
>
> I don't know really, and I dont' care about it either. I am more
interested
> in data. A person who could compile such a technology in my opinion is not
> exaggerating if he had some of those things. Who am I to verify, it is
> irrelevant.
>
> By the way, LRH did not write this Info letter. then how could he be the
> claimer in this?
Seems he did sign the Info letter underneath, however it was misleading as
he was addressing it as him being in the second person. Must be the pamphlet
which he then did not write.
Spacetraveler
Praxis
Spacetraveler wrote:
> "Spacetraveler" <spacet...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:lm5Id.14893$d5.1...@newsb.telia.net...
> >
> > "Warrior" <war...@xenu.ca> wrote in message
> > news:116283806.0...@drn.newsguy.com...
> > > In article <AEoHd.127998$dP1.4...@newsc.telia.net>,
> > > Spacetraveler asked:
> > > >
> > > >Do you know what C.E. stands for that I quote?
> > >
> > > Since the word "cabbage" is slang "money", I suppose it might
> > > mean "Cabbage Earner". This is appropriate for Hubbard.
> > >
> > > But then again, given Hubbard's bent for verbosity, C.E. could
> > > also mean Chief Ear-bender.
> > >
> > > It could also mean Canned Eightball, since "canned" means
> > > "drunk", and "eightball" means "a maladjusted person".
> > >
> > > Tell me where Hubbard supposedly earned his Ph.D. that he
> > > claimed in HCO Info Letter of 14 April 1961:
> > >
> >
>
http://www.carolineletkeman.org/refund/docs/hco-info-ltr-1961-04-14-pe-hando
> > ut.html
> >
> > I don't know really, and I dont' care about it either. I am more
> interested
> > in data.
Data is a collection of facts. If certain facts are wrong, it
invalidates the conclusions one has derived from the data.
If L Ron Hubbard makes claims about himself and presents them as fact,
but these claims are not true, then it invalidates the conclusions one
has arrived at regarding L Ron Hubbard.
One would have to change one's perception of L Ron Hubbard, since we
now have a different set of data to work from. Honest people just look
at the new set of data, which now include a set of untrue claims, and
revise their perception.
After one has revised one's persception of the person who makes untrue
claims about themselves, one would naturally have to revise one's
perception of the claims that the person has made about other things.
If L Ron Hubbard could not be truthful regarding himself, then to what
degree was he truthful about the data that he presented as "fact"?
> > A person who could compile such a technology in my opinion is not
> > exaggerating if he had some of those things. Who am I to verify, it
is
> > irrelevant.
This is a remarkable "about face" on your behalf. You have consistently
told people to go and try out Scientology "tech" to verify its
effectiveness for themselves.
Does the verification process not apply to yourself? Does the
verification process not apply to facts about L Ron Hubbard?
If L Ron Hubbard is the source of your data, should you not first
verify the facts regarding your source?
If L Ron Hubbard lied then is not lying part of L Ron Hubbard's
methodology?
To what degree can you be certain that lying - as methodology - was not
used in the creation of Scientology "technology"?
> > By the way, LRH did not write this Info letter. then how could he
be the
> > claimer in this?
>
> Seems he did sign the Info letter underneath, however it was
misleading as
> he was addressing it as him being in the second person. Must be the
pamphlet
> which he then did not write.
Prince, Bob Dole, Elmo and a few other deluded rock-stars have referred
to themselves in the "third person".
L Ron Hubbard might have suffered similar delusions of grandeur (as in
some cases) or a child-like mind (as in the case of Elmo).
You assume that L Ron Hubbard did not write the document. Your
assumption is probably wrong. For you to prove that the document was
disemminated without L Ron Hubbard's knowledge or blessing the onus is
on you to prove that there were proxies for L Ron Hubbard that used L
Ron Hubbard's signature without L Ron Hubbard's awareness.
In this case you would also have to prove that these proxies intended
to do L Ron Hubbard harm, since they made false claims about L Ron
Hubbard.
Your avoidance falls into the category of over-used excuse that "L Ron
Hubbard did not write that" when - self evidently - the document bears
his signature. It was written when he was alive. It was written at a
stage at which he, historically, was "in control".
You will also notice that it is a scanned document i.e. it is a
graphic. The presenter of this document is being honest with you by
presenting a truthful rendering of the document.
You would find life a lot simpler if you stopped avoiding truths (or
data) that you find unpallatable.
> Spacetraveler
Rev Norle Enturbulata
Perhaps in Scientology "verification" is actually "acceptance of what your
supervisor tells you."
Spacetraveler
"Praxis" <janee...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1106320396.5...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
I've asked people various times to back up that the claim was false. No one
so far forwarded any exact data about that.
Further we have a technology and we have L.Ron Hubbard. His technology I can
in fact verify by analyzing it, using it, relating the data and compare if I
chose to and so on. Whatever L. Ron Hubbard may be or not be where it comes
to credentials or what I may think about his personality is irrelevant to
that. This can even be faked, where a technology's workability can be
tested. I am a practical person, your proposal is not practical.
Compare with Clinton and that Monica girl. Does this make Clinton a bad
president all of a sudden, it's 2 separated things.
In addition
> > > A person who could compile such a technology in my opinion is not
> > > exaggerating if he had some of those things. Who am I to verify, it
> is
> > > irrelevant.
>
> This is a remarkable "about face" on your behalf. You have consistently
> told people to go and try out Scientology "tech" to verify its
> effectiveness for themselves.
>
> Does the verification process not apply to yourself?
> Does the
> verification process not apply to facts about L Ron Hubbard?
No, why should it. Explained already.
>
> If L Ron Hubbard is the source of your data, should you not first
> verify the facts regarding your source?
No. I judge from his products not his person.
> If L Ron Hubbard lied then is not lying part of L Ron Hubbard's
> methodology?
No one forwarded evidence that it would be some untruth.
>
> To what degree can you be certain that lying - as methodology - was not
> used in the creation of Scientology "technology"?
>
> > > By the way, LRH did not write this Info letter. then how could he
> be the
> > > claimer in this?
> >
> > Seems he did sign the Info letter underneath, however it was
> misleading as
> > he was addressing it as him being in the second person. Must be the
> pamphlet
> > which he then did not write.
>
> Prince, Bob Dole, Elmo and a few other deluded rock-stars have referred
> to themselves in the "third person".
>
> L Ron Hubbard might have suffered similar delusions of grandeur (as in
> some cases) or a child-like mind (as in the case of Elmo).
So, weird assumption based on this Info letter. Quite illogical in fact.
>
> You assume that L Ron Hubbard did not write the document. Your
> assumption is probably wrong. For you to prove that the document was
> disemminated without L Ron Hubbard's knowledge or blessing the onus is
> on you to prove that there were proxies for L Ron Hubbard that used L
> Ron Hubbard's signature without L Ron Hubbard's awareness.
I said that he was probably just quoting the pamphlet that was being issued.
Further it is a fact that many issues were published carrying the signature
of LRH, without him being involved or even having seen it. Various issues
exist cancelling these and saying specifically that it was cancelled because
LRH had not even seen it.
>
> In this case you would also have to prove that these proxies intended
> to do L Ron Hubbard harm, since they made false claims about L Ron
> Hubbard.
False claims?, so far this claim being a 'false claim' I consider only to be
claim if no data or evidence accompanies it...
>
> Your avoidance falls into the category of over-used excuse that "L Ron
> Hubbard did not write that" when - self evidently - the document bears
> his signature. It was written when he was alive. It was written at a
> stage at which he, historically, was "in control".
>
> You will also notice that it is a scanned document i.e. it is a
> graphic. The presenter of this document is being honest with you by
> presenting a truthful rendering of the document.
I have in fact both the old and new volumes wherein it was published. The
version found at the link you provided was not the full version. To some
degree thism atters as the part directly prior to that 'claim made by LRH'
was left out.
I assume this is all what you have seen of the issue? Well, and you start
immediately talking about LRH being delusional because he was writing in the
third person? How does this sound to you?
> You would find life a lot simpler if you stopped avoiding truths (or
> data) that you find unpallatable.
I could say something about you drawing conclusions so very quickly, but I
pass...
Spacetraveler
Spacetraveler
"Warrior" <war...@xenu.ca> wrote in message
news:116283806.0...@drn.newsguy.com...
> In article <AEoHd.127998$dP1.4...@newsc.telia.net>,
> Spacetraveler asked:
> >
> >Do you know what C.E. stands for that I quote?
>
> Since the word "cabbage" is slang "money", I suppose it might
> mean "Cabbage Earner". This is appropriate for Hubbard.
>
> But then again, given Hubbard's bent for verbosity, C.E. could
> also mean Chief Ear-bender.
>
> It could also mean Canned Eightball, since "canned" means
> "drunk", and "eightball" means "a maladjusted person".
>
> Tell me where Hubbard supposedly earned his Ph.D. that he
> claimed in HCO Info Letter of 14 April 1961:
>
http://www.carolineletkeman.org/refund/docs/hco-info-ltr-1961-04-14-pe-hando
ut.html
I don't know really, and I dont' want to confront it either. I am more
interested in keeping my Scientology indoctrination in one cosy piece. A
person who could compile such a technology in my opinion can exaggerate all
he wants if he had some of those things. Who am I to verify, the truth is
irrelevant. I'm indoctrinated.
By the way, LRH did not write this Info letter. then how could he be the
claimer in this? I don't know that but I'll allege it anyway. I'm
indoctrinated. I'm good at alleging.
Still informing the ARS readers about waht it says underneath all these
references about fairgame in the old volumes, is not.unning Warrior, of
course that's what I do, run... I have as muchcredibility around here as
the other OSA bots. LOL! :)
Spacetraveler
Lady Chatterly
Anonymous...@See.Comment.Header (Spacetraveler) wrote:
>
>I don't know really, and I dont' want to confront it either. I am more
>interested in keeping my Scientology indoctrination in one cosy piece. A
>person who could compile such a technology in my opinion can exaggerate all
>he wants if he had some of those things. Who am I to verify, the truth is
>irrelevant. I'm indoctrinated.
Get me too lost in my apartment, life is so fickle.
>By the way, LRH did not write this Info letter. then how could he be the
>claimer in this? I don't know that but I'll allege it anyway. I'm
>indoctrinated. I'm good at alleging.
Why do you ask if you are good at alleging?
>Still inform<SPLORK!>
Away.
--
Lady Chatterly
"I really need to learn enough about computers to make myself a bot.
LC is just priceless." -- Ryan Lankford
Praxis
The claim (made by L Ron Hubbard, or made by people on behalf of L Ron
Hubbard) that L ron Hubbard had a Ph.D. is specifically false for the
following reason shown below (but this would require you to actually
read what is written below):
< Begin Quote >
From
http://studytech.org/study_tech2.php
In 1953, he decided to bolster his academic credentials with a degree
purchased for $20 from "Sequoia University," a notorious Californian
degree mill run by a Los Angeles chiropodist named Joseph Hough. On 27
February, Hubbard sent a cable to his agent in Los Angeles: "PLEASE
INFORM DR HOUGH PHD VERY ACCEPTABLE. PRIVATELY TO YOU. FOR GOSH SAKES
EXPEDITE. WORK HERE UTTERLY DEPENDANT ON IT. CABLE REPLY. RON." The
reply came through the following day: "PHD GRANTED. HOUGH'S AIRMAIL
LETTER OF CONFIRMATION FOLLOWS. GOOD LUCK." (Miller, 1988)
Hubbard thereby acquired wholly bogus titles as a "Doctor of Divinity"
and "Doctor of Scientology," and subsequently took to referring to
himself as "Dr" Hubbard. But this too became an embarassment when the
falsity of the degree was pointed out, prompting Hubbard to insist that
"I was a Ph.D., Sequoia's University and therefore a perfectly valid
doctor under the laws of the State of California" ("Doctor Title
Abolished," HCO Policy Letter of 14 February 1966). The latter
assertion was certainly untrue, as Sequoia was never accredited and was
eventually forced to closed by the Californian authorities. In the end,
Hubbard ostentatiously renounced the degree with an announcement in the
personal column of The Times of London in March 1966. He declared that
"having reviewed the damage being done in our society with nuclear
physics and psychiatry by persons calling themselves "Doctor" [I] do
hereby resign in protest my university degree as a Doctor of philosophy
(Ph.D.), anticipating an early public outcry against anyone called
Doctor."
(quoted in Miller, p. 335)
If he intended this to have a moral effect on the professions that he
chastised, it didn't work. The following day's Daily Mail pointed out,
somewhat churlishly, that the "degree" had never been valid in the
first place.
< End Quote >
In words of 2 syllables or less: "L Ron Hubbard never had a Ph.D."
> Further we have a technology and we have L.Ron Hubbard. His
technology I can
> in fact verify by analyzing it, using it, relating the data and
compare if I
> chose to and so on. Whatever L. Ron Hubbard may be or not be where
it comes
> to credentials or what I may think about his personality is
irrelevant to
> that. This can even be faked, where a technology's workability can be
> tested. I am a practical person, your proposal is not practical.
>
> Compare with Clinton and that Monica girl. Does this make Clinton a
bad
> president all of a sudden, it's 2 separated things.
You're comparing apples to frogs. This called "False Analogy"
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy
L Ron Hubbard is "source". What if the "source" lies?
> In addition
>
>
> > > > A person who could compile such a technology in my opinion is
not
> > > > exaggerating if he had some of those things. Who am I to
verify, it
> > is
> > > > irrelevant.
> >
> > This is a remarkable "about face" on your behalf. You have
consistently
> > told people to go and try out Scientology "tech" to verify its
> > effectiveness for themselves.
> >
> > Does the verification process not apply to yourself?
>
> > Does the
> > verification process not apply to facts about L Ron Hubbard?
>
> No, why should it. Explained already.
Yes it does, see above.
It says quite lucidly at
http://www.whatisscientology.org/
that "The full body of knowledge that comprises the Scientology
religion is contained in more than forty million spoken and written
words on the subject-all by L. Ron Hubbard, the source and founder of
Scientology."
Again, if the "source" is a proven liar, to what degree does the "body
of knowledge that comprises the Scientology religion" contain lies?
> > If L Ron Hubbard is the source of your data, should you not first
> > verify the facts regarding your source?
>
> No. I judge from his products not his person.
Which is an admittance, by you, that L Ron Hubbard - the person - is
less than reliable regarding matters of truth.
Good, now if you "judge" that his "products" have been beneficial to
you, has it not occurred to you that the parts of Scientology
"technology" that you like are the parts that are the less than
truthful emanation from L Ron Hubbard?
To put it in real simple terms:
* L Ron Hubbard is the "source" of Scientology
* L Ron Hubbard is less than truthful
* Since Scientology emanates from L Ron Hubbard, there are probably
parts of Scientology that are less than truthful.
To what degree are you absolutely sure that the parts of Scientology
that you like are not the parts of Scientology that are less than
truthful?
This would be a grand opportunity for you to delineate all the
beneficial effects that Scientology has had on your life.
> > If L Ron Hubbard lied then is not lying part of L Ron Hubbard's
> > methodology?
>
> No one forwarded evidence that it would be some untruth.
Is the Xenu story true?
> > To what degree can you be certain that lying - as methodology - was
not
> > used in the creation of Scientology "technology"?
> >
> > > > By the way, LRH did not write this Info letter. then how could
he
> > be the
> > > > claimer in this?
> > >
> > > Seems he did sign the Info letter underneath, however it was
> > misleading as
> > > he was addressing it as him being in the second person. Must be
the
> > pamphlet
> > > which he then did not write.
> >
> > Prince, Bob Dole, Elmo and a few other deluded rock-stars have
referred
> > to themselves in the "third person".
> >
> > L Ron Hubbard might have suffered similar delusions of grandeur (as
in
> > some cases) or a child-like mind (as in the case of Elmo).
>
> So, weird assumption based on this Info letter. Quite illogical in
fact.
I assumed nothing. I used the word "might".
> > You assume that L Ron Hubbard did not write the document. Your
> > assumption is probably wrong. For you to prove that the document
was
> > disemminated without L Ron Hubbard's knowledge or blessing the onus
is
> > on you to prove that there were proxies for L Ron Hubbard that used
L
> > Ron Hubbard's signature without L Ron Hubbard's awareness.
>
> I said that he was probably just quoting the pamphlet that was being
issued.
> Further it is a fact that many issues were published carrying the
signature
> of LRH, without him being involved or even having seen it. Various
issues
> exist cancelling these and saying specifically that it was cancelled
because
> LRH had not even seen it.
Can you point the readers to evidence that proves L Ron Hubbard
cancelled "issues" "saying specifically" L Ron Hubbard "had not even
seen it"?
> > In this case you would also have to prove that these proxies
intended
> > to do L Ron Hubbard harm, since they made false claims about L Ron
> > Hubbard.
>
> False claims?, so far this claim being a 'false claim' I consider
only to be
> claim if no data or evidence accompanies it...
The claim (made by L Ron Hubbard, or made by people on behalf of L Ron
Hubbard) that L ron Hubbard had a Ph.D. is specifically false for
reasons laid out above.
> > Your avoidance falls into the category of over-used excuse that "L
Ron
> > Hubbard did not write that" when - self evidently - the document
bears
> > his signature. It was written when he was alive. It was written at
a
> > stage at which he, historically, was "in control".
> >
> > You will also notice that it is a scanned document i.e. it is a
> > graphic. The presenter of this document is being honest with you by
> > presenting a truthful rendering of the document.
>
> I have in fact both the old and new volumes wherein it was published.
The
> version found at the link you provided was not the full version. To
some
> degree thism atters as the part directly prior to that 'claim made by
LRH'
> was left out.
>
> I assume this is all what you have seen of the issue? Well, and you
start
> immediately talking about LRH being delusional because he was writing
in the
> third person? How does this sound to you?
Referring to oneself in the third person is a red flag that there might
be a psychological disorder present.
For example:
"Persons with dissociative identity disorder [snip] may refer to
themselves in the first person plural (we) or in the third person (he,
she, they)."
Which is found at:
http://www.merck.com/mrkshared/mmanual/section15/chapter188/188d.jsp
Warrior
>>> Spacetraveler asked:
>>>>
>>>>Do you know what C.E. stands for that I quote?
>> Warrior wrote in <116283806.0...@drn.newsguy.com>:
>>>
>>> Since the word "cabbage" is slang "money", I suppose it might
>>> mean "Cabbage Earner". This is appropriate for Hubbard.
>>>
>>> But then again, given Hubbard's bent for verbosity, C.E. could
>>> also mean Chief Ear-bender.
>>>
>>> It could also mean Canned Eightball, since "canned" means
>>> "drunk", and "eightball" means "a maladjusted person".
>>>
>>> Tell me where Hubbard supposedly earned his Ph.D. that he
>>> claimed in HCO Info Letter of 14 April 1961:
>>>
>>>http://www.carolineletkeman.org/refund/docs/hco-info-ltr-1961-04-14-pe-handout.html
>"Spacetraveler" <spacet...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:lm5Id.14893$d5.1...@newsb.telia.net...
>>
>> I don't know really, and I dont' [sic] care about it either. I am more
>> interested in data. A person who could compile such a technology
>> in my opinion is not exaggerating if he had some of those things.
Hubbard personally wrote it, not someone else.
>> Who am I to verify, it is irrelevant.
Too bad you choose to remain deluded. I had hoped you could use
logical thinking and see that Hubbard lied about his credentials.
>> By the way, LRH did not write this Info letter. then how could he
>> be the claimer in this?
In article <Rv5Id.14897$d5.1...@newsb.telia.net>, Spacetraveler says...
>
>Seems he did sign the Info letter underneath, however it was
>misleading
Glad you admit Hubbard was attempting to mislead others with
his fraudulent claims as to his credentials. That he had to resort
to fabricating degrees out of whole cloth shows how desperately
he desired credibility and respectability.
>as he was addressing it as him being in the second person. Must
>be the pamphlet which he then did not write.
>
>Spacetraveler
He wrote HCO Info Letter of 14 April 1961 "PE Handout". Six weeks
before he wrote his 14 April 1961 Information Letter he had already
announced (in HCO PL of 2 March 1961) his intention to write four
new handouts. He then incorporated those four new handouts, along
with the existing one (HCO Info Letter of 22 February 1961), into his
HCO Info Letter of 14 April 1961.
If you bother to read his HCO Policy Letter of 2 March 1961 "Automatic
Evaluation Package for PE Foundation", you will see that Hubbard wrote
in this issue, beginning at the fourth paragraph:
"As soon as I write these handouts mentioned in 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, they will
appear as HCO Information Letters for your getting them letterpressed.
Number 7, State of Release, has already appeared in this form. (HCO
Info Letter of 22 Feb. 61)
"All sheets and plan of the Auto Evaluation itself now exist in Johannes--
burg.
"A packet should be made up also for all persons already evaluated in
the past and sent to them by mail.
"EIGHT UNIT PACKET IN ENVELOPE WITH NAME ON IT
"1. Graph, Evaluation slips.
"2. Form Letter giving IQ and future.
(3, 4, 5, 6 & 7 are letter-press sheets)
"3. What is Scientology?
"4. The Cheapest Way -- PE Co-audit.
"5. The Fastest Way -- Individual Processing.
"6. The Educational Way -- Books, Training.
"7. The State of Release.
"8. Two free tickets for a test they can give their friends.
"L. RON HUBBARD
"LRH:ph.rd
"Copyright © 1961
"by L. Ron Hubbard
"ALL RIGHTS RESERVED"
[Note: The above-referenced HCO PL 2 March 1961 appears on page
number 172 of _OEC Vol. VI_, 1976 edition. This same policy letter
appears on page no. 292 of the 1991 edition of _OEC Volume VI_.]
Now, did you pay attention to numbers 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 of that PL?
Good.
Now look at HCO Info Letter of 14 April 1961 "PE Handout". Notice
the bold headings which make up the various sections of this Info
Letter are as follows (I've included the corresponding page numbers
in the 1976 and 1991 volumes, respectively):
"WHAT IS SCIENTOLOGY" (page 196 / page 293)
"THE CHEAPEST WAY" (page 198 / page 296)
"THE FASTEST WAY" (page 198 / page 296)
"THE EDUCATIONAL WAY" (page 199 / page 297)
"THE STATE OF RELEASE" (page 199 / page 297)
Observe that HCO Information Letter of 14 April 1961 is signed and
copyrighted by L. Ron Hubbard.
Got it?
Good.
Now look again and observe numbers 3, 4, 5, 6 & 7, as announced
in his 2 March 1961 HCO Policy Letter:
"3. What is Scientology?
"4. The Cheapest Way -- PE Co-audit.
"5. The Fastest Way -- Individual Processing.
"6. The Educational Way -- Books, Training.
"7. The State of Release.
So there you have my evidence to document the fact that Hubbard
is the one who made the fraudulent claim; i.e., he not only wrote the
section titled "What is Scientology?" in his 14 April HCO Info Letter in
which he claimed he was a "C.E." and a "Ph.D.", but he had even an-
nounced his intention to do so six weeks earlier in his 2 March 1961
HCO Policy Letter.
Hubbard's fraudulent claim as to his credentials were published by
him at least as early as April 1961. The same fraudulent claim has
been repeated in publications (_OEC Volume VI_) which have been
published again in 1976 and again in 1991.
L. Ron Hubbard is a proven fraud.
Warrior
A fraudulent claim by Hubbard
As anyone can see, Hubbard claimed on the cover of his book
_Scientology: 8-80_ that he was a Civil Engineer and a Doctor
of Scientology. See alt.binaries.scientology for this image.
Another one of Hubbard's many fraudulent claims can be seen
webbed at this page on Caroline Letkeman's website:
http://www.carolineletkeman.org/refund/docs/hco-info-ltr-1961-04-14-pe-handout.html
In the issue webbed at this link, Hubbard refers to himself as
"L. Ron Hubbard, C.E., Ph.D., a nuclear physicist". The issue,
HCO Information Letter of April 14, 1961 "PE Handout", was
first published in 1961. The same false credentials were being
claimed by Hubbard in _OEC Volume VI_, second US printing of
1976, on page 196. The same fraudulent claim is again repeated
in the 1991 edition of _OEC Volume VI_, on page 293.
Spacetraveler
You can't win one argument, you ignore then that one, and so you invent
another one....
Spacetraveler
Spacetraveler
You are manipulating, you are quite sick in your head. I think people have
started to understand that about you.
The claim can not be backed up, nor would it be relevant. The books that LRH
wrote display great knowledge about the subjects he discusses.
Briefly... not proven at all... it is entirely irrelevant. Anyway you spend
quite some time compiling all of this, I wonder why? Ego? Something was
done to you and you want revenge?
Also your presentation in the above is directed not to why the claims should
have been false.
And then you chose also not to continue the discussion about your claims
about the SP/PTS packs and it's relation to the mention of fair game.
It's too obvious you know...
Spacetraveler