David Miscavige = Bull Connor
cul...@primenet.com
We as critics of Scientology can learn a lot from the successes of
the U.S. civil rights movement in the early 1960's. These brave young
people, mostly college students, followed Gandhi Tech to such a degree
that they allowed themselves to be beaten by rabid crowds simply to
show the world that they should have the right to sit at a lunch
counter, use non-segregated restrooms and drinking fountains, and
especially to vote. These nonviolent actions on their part led
directly to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of
1965, despite the armed, violent, and much more powerful entrenched
opposition.
I've just finished reading "The Children" by David Halberstam.
There are striking parallels between our struggle with the Church of
Scientology and the civil rights activists' struggles, especially in
how Scientology has reacted to our efforts. [note: page numbers are
from the above mentioned book]
For hundreds of years in the U.S. south the social order was
unwavering and deeply engraved on the minds of all. Blacks were
second class citizens. They were kept seperate from whites in most
situations, they could not vote, and the political and judicial
systems were basically stacked against them. The civil rights
movement began, not to take over the South, but simply to gain
equality for blacks. The method was simple - they would use
nonviolent direct action to challenge the status quo.
The first such action was to go into whites only lunch counters,
sit down, and order a meal. If no one would take their order, they
stayed there, quietly waiting for a chance to order. The restaurant
workers and owners were beside themselves over what to do, so they
would often close the establishment. [p.104-5]
Well, surprise! In Clearwater in December 1997 and in Los Angeles
in March 1998 the Church of Scientology closed down its properties
that were targeted for picketing! We just went there to peacefully
voice our opinions, and they got so confused over what to do that they
simply ran away.
Segregationists tried the usual methods of intimidation on the
civil rights activists. They attacked their families, [p.165] as
Scientology has done to Grady Ward, Bob Minton, myself, and many
others.
The segregationists used what Scientology calls "dead agenting" to
silence critics. [p.188] This is simply the attempt to smear the
reputation of the critic. The Church not only uses this, they've
coined a phrase for it.
The segregationists would shadow and photograph the activists, as
the Scientologists do to us today. [p.22, 574]
The segregationists would accuse activists of being outside
agitators who didn't understand that everything locally was actually
fine and dandy. [p.114, 121] At all three pickets in Clearwater so
far, the Church has accused us of being outside agitators there simply
to upset the status quo. This is bunk. Several times when I have
picketed here in Phoenix, the local Scientology representative would
tell the media that it was silly for us to picket in Phoenix because
our complaint was actually with Church leadership, not the locals.
So, then we take that advice and go to Church headquarters to protest,
and when we get there the Scientology representative tells the media
we are outside agitators. The lesson? According to Scientology,
there is NO PLACE that is the right place for us to protest.
Segregationists decided that if they could silence the leader of
the activists, the movement would collapse [p.197] But little did
they know that the civil rights movement was run by concensus, not by
hierarchy. They went after Jim Lawson, the man who prepared and
nurtured the activists before they did any action. But "Though Jim
Lawson was their teacher and he was to be the keynote speaker at the
meeting, they in no way deferred to him." [p.216] The activists
talked ideas out and came to mutual agreements as to what to do. And
that is how we operate. Scientology has thought that if they could
just take out Larry Wollersheim or Dennis Erlich or Bob Minton or
whomever they think at the moment is head of the ARSCC, we would all
shrink back to our pitiful wog lives.
Just as the segregationists thought the old tried and true ways to
handle the "niggers" would work on the civil rights activists, so
Scientologists thought the Hubbard Tech of "attack the attacker" would
work to silence us critics.
The civil rights activists wanted to march through Selma Alabama on
March 17, 1965. They peacefully walked over the Edmund Pettus Bridge,
and could see on the other side Major John Cloud's Alabama state
troopers and Sheriff Jim Clark's deputies, some of them on horseback.
Everybody did what was expected of them - the troopers pummeled the
marchers, and the marchers absorbed the blows. The Good Ol' Boys no
doubt went home all proud of themselves for protecting the Way of the
South. But of course, in actuality, their actions greatly sped up the
time when segregation collapsed. The activists had used the
predictability of the segregationists' mentality against them. The
television tapes of these vicious attacks are still hard to watch
without getting ill. But all of America did see them. The Good Ol'
Boys were stars in a play not of their making.
Scientologists dutifully come out to harass and intimidate us
critics using the tried and true Hubbard Tech. But I think they are
beginning to see now that things are not as they once were. We EXPECT
to be harassed and in fact we WANT it at times, to show the world the
true face of Scientology. This is the essence of Operation Footbullet
- they use Hubbard's rabid attack methods on us, and we expose this to
the world. The result is that Scientology is known for their rabid
attacks more than anything else.
The segregationists seriously mis-read the activists they came up
against. They just saw them as "uppity niggers" that could be handled
by simply ratcheting up the old methods. But things were changing.
Here's one of my favorite paragraphs from the book:
In 1995, on the thirteenth anniversary of the Battle of Selma [the
confrontation at the bridge], the Reverend James Luther Bevel returned
to that city along with Jamese, his sixteen-year-old daughter, to be a
part of the ceremonies commemorating both the past and the future.
There he had received a surprisingly warm welcome from one of his old
adversaries, Joseph Smitherman, who was still the mayor, and who told
Jamese, "All of us were more afraid of your father than we were of any
of the others. Your father's a small man physically, but when he
would ride that bike by himself in the morning, with that hard look on
his face, it scared us, not only because we had no idea what he was up
to on those rides, but because we knew he didn't fear us. I mean, he
was not supposed to be riding around by himself - Selma was dangerous
for black people in those days, but he didn't seem to know it. We
were more scared of him than of Dr. King." [p.684]
So, the segregationists, in charge of the police, the courts, the
political machine, and the social order for hundreds of years, were
afraid of one black guy on a bicycle. Why? Because he didn't fear
them.
Here's another bitter pill the segregationists had to swallow
because the blacks began to lose their fear;
On a subsequent occasion, Lewis brought his people to the
courthouse, only to find their way blocked by Clark [Sheriff Jim Clark
of the bridge fame]. The sheriff ordered them to go back, but Lewis
stood up to him. The courthouse, Lewis said, was a public place and
they had a right to go inside. "We will not be turned around," he
said.
"Did you hear what I said?" Clark asked. "Turn around and go
back." He seemed closer to an explosion than ever, some people
thought, after Lewis' defiance.
"Did you hear what I said?" Lewis answered. We are NOT going
back." And he stood his ground. Finally Clark, in some irritation,
backed down and told them to go on in. Watching the scene, James
Chestnut was amazed: the mighty Jim Clark BACKING DOWN in front of
this young boy? He had been sure that Clark was going to beat John
Lewis on that day, and yet he had backed down. Chestnut had thought
to himself, he later wrote, that it was a moment when his eyes had
opened. "To hell with [Judge] Hare... I have spied your nakedness.
All my life I believed that white people could and would draw the
lines whenever and wherever it wanted." Now for the first time he was
not so sure. A revolution was taking place in the minds of the local
people. [p. 497]
Ex-Scientologists and Scientology critics today have lost their
fear. Scientology is seen as the King in the fairy tale, strutting
around in his finery, until a little boy shouted "the King is naked!"
Scientology is naked.
**************
Now I've shown Scientology many of the inside secrets of the ARSCC.
They can see now how Operation Footbullet works, how we are
"organized", how to deal with us at protests. But I have no fear of
exposing our secrets. Why not? Because they are stuck in a dilemma.
On the one hand, they MUST follow Hubbard's teachings to harass,
intimidate, and attack critics. But on the other hand, they know that
when they DO follow Hubbard, it creates all sorts of bad publicity and
detrimental consequences. So, if they don't follow Hubbard, it will
be better for them, but then they won't be Scientologists, will they?
So, they will predictably follow Hubbard Tech, and we will just as
predictably oblige by showing the world just what the Church of
Scientology is all about.
I leave you with one more quote from the book:
The members of the central committee met every day and remained on
red alert. Their confidence had grown steadily. They had a mounting
sense that they were on the winning track and they could laugh about
some of the confrontations now, about the befuddled white woman who
had panicked when they had staged the sit-in at Harveys on Big
Saturday and had rushed from the restaurant to the ladies' room,
opened the door, and found two black Fisk co-eds there, and had
started screaming, more in dismay than anger, "Oh my God, they're
everywhere! They're everywhere!" [p. 211]
Jeff Jacobsen
August 27, 1998
for the ARSCC
*****
"The idea that one can 'push' Scientology
and get no penalty is a false one." Russell Shaw
"To punish to the fullest extent of my power anyone
misusing or degrading Scientology to harmful ends" (The
original Code of a Scientologist)
Starshadow
says...
Really nice work, Jeff. Good parallel, and another link to the civil
rights movement, is that with the advent of televised marches, the
South's segregationalists lost bigtime...this still young medium brought
the injustices and mistreatment into people's living rooms. Now we have
the Internet, still young, and bringing the injustices and mistreatment,
and lies, and all into people's homes, and when they ask the hard
questions, in this interactive medium, they see the way they are treated
with comtempt and with lies. It will be their undoing, just as it was in
Selma for the segregationalists.
--
Bright Blessings,
Starshadow SP4, Granny Dyke
Tilman Hausherr
Btw, scientologists have never marched for human rights or similar. They
have always marched because they *hate* a group. They hate psychiatry,
the german government, the press, the police, 20% of the population,
whatever. But you won't see scientologists demonstrating for peace, for
jobs, or for freedom of expression. Bigots. The civil rights activists
didn't demonstrate because they hate whites - they wanted equal rights
for all.
clarence sevdy
Church , Aren't there?
Clarence
Public Relations
This comparison is completely specious.
Blacks fought for their civil rights
because they were being discriminated against and
persecuted in a white-dominated society in which
they had to live. All black people were involved in
this struggle, either directly or indirectly,
because it impinged directly on their own lives.
The so-called "critics" of Scientology are
outside the Church and some have never even been
members. Nobody is asking them to join. The
Church's own members are happy with their religion,
confident in its management, practice their religion
voluntarily and find it spiritually fulfilling.
Moreover, Scientologists have fought hard and
long for the rights of others, including for black
people.
One of the false statements which has been made
about Scientology is that the Church "harasses its
critics." This false claim has been made by some
apostates, has no bearing in truth and is no
different from similar criticisms made by apostates
of other religions. Scientologists follow a strict
ethical code which forbids illegal activity. The
Church does legally pursue protection of its rights
and the rights of its members when such rights are
violated. When the Church is forced to take legal
action to defend itself against people who publish
stolen Church scriptures, spread a campaign of hate
and intolerance towards Scientologists, and threaten
Scient ologists with violence, individuals who are
brought to justice decry the effort as an attempt to
"harass critics." That is simply not true -- it
merely represents legal protection of human rights
and civil rights of the Church and its parishioners.
Religious scholars have routinely found the
testimony and public statements of apostates to be
unreliable.
Lonnie Kliever, Professor of Religious Studies,
Southern Methodist Univer sity, Dallas, Texas,
states:
"... Certainly all new religions hold beliefs
and practices that are at variance with mainstream
religions. Not surprisingly, given these rigorous
demands, some of those who became involved soon
decided that a particular relig ious movement is not
for them and leave. Their departure usually goes
unnotice d because most of the individuals involved
regard their past experience positiv ely as one more
step in their own spiritual journey.
"But in contrast to the above, among those who
leave voluntarily are a few defectors who gained a
great notoriety by publicly attacking their former
religious associations and activities through the
press and in the courts. As welcome sources of
information for a public both curious and fearful
about the se unfamiliar new religions, such
apostates are often treated as cause celebres rather
than as social outcasts."
The repeating patterns described by experts
become evident when examining the critics of
Scientology who have claimed they are being
harassed.
On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 06:52:53 GMT, cul...@primenet.com wrote:
>David Miscavige = Bull Connor
>
> We as critics of Scientology can learn a lot from the successes of
>the U.S. civil rights movement in the early 1960's.
<snip>
> Segregationists tried the usual methods of intimidation on the
>civil rights activists. They attacked their families, [p.165] as
>Scientology has done to Grady Ward, Bob Minton, myself, and many
>others.
>
MSU94
>The
> Church's own members are happy with their religion,
Which is why numbers have done down, org and missions are closing, and Jesse
Prince gave his affidavit.
>confident in its management,
They have no choice in who is managing it. Davey Miscarraige is the commander
in cheat
>practice their religion voluntarily
Wow..they sure explains forced labor, RFP, and prolonged terminal stays in Fort
Hotel Harrison. How is running around trees all day practiciing a religion?
> Moreover, Scientologists have fought hard and
> long for the rights of others, including for black
> people.
Only if they are already scientologists or are prospective members, or are
celebrities
> One of the false statements which has been made
> about Scientology is that the Church "harasses its
> critics.
"If possible..destroy them utterly" LRH..
>Scientologists follow a strict
> ethical code which forbids illegal activity.
That sure explains forgerys, tresspassing, kidnapping, forced confinement,
harassment.
> The
> Church does legally pursue protection of its rights
> and the rights of its members when such rights are
> violated.
Sure..when Super Secret and Stupid Scriptures are posted like Xenu and the
Renegade..Or when someone posts something completely legal which happens to
piss off the church
>spread a campaign of hate
> and intolerance
What about leafletting critics because they disagree with Clamatology.
>ot true -- it
> merely represents legal protection of human rights
> and civil rights of the Church and its parishioners.
Of course we know civil rights dont extend to critics because we are too far
down on tone scale and are supressive.
>Religious scholars have routinely found the
> testimony and public statements of apostates to be
> unreliab
The Courts seem to find them quite reliable.
>
> "... Certainly all new religions hold beliefs
> and practices that are at variance with mainstream
> religions
And yours takes the cake...Xenu and the Renegades, descending from Clams,
Eskimos on Jupiter, Marcabs, freight trains on Mars..Is just doesnt get any
funnier than this.
>Their departure usually goes
> unnotice d because most of the individuals involved
> regard their past experience positiv ely as one more
> step in their own spiritual journey.
Yeah right..That sure explains why they want refunds from your clammy cult..
> about the se unfamiliar new religions, such
> apostates are often treated as cause celebres rather
> than as social outcasts."
I am sure that your church would rather them be outcasts so their knowledge
gets no publicity
>Scientology who have claimed they are being
> harassed.
It aint just claims....
Ron from Texas
Dobe R Man
publicr...@scientology.org
nattered:
[chomp .. blechk!]
> One of the false statements which has been made
> about Scientology is that the Church "harasses its
> critics." This false claim has been made by some
> apostates, has no bearing in truth and is no
> different from similar criticisms made by apostates
> of other religions. Scientologists follow a strict
> ethical code which forbids illegal activity.
[chomp ... blechk!]
Oh!? What say ye to the following?:
"An enemy [any critic of Scientology], "[they] may be deprived of property or
injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the
Scientologist...may be tricked, sued, lied to, or destroyed." From the words
of L. Ron Hubbard in HCO policy letter of 18 October 1967, known as the "Fair
Game Policy."
"… Always attack. Find or manufacture enough threat against them to cause them
to sue for peace. Originate a black PR campaign to destroy the person's repute
and to discredit them so thoroughly they will be ostracized. Be alert to sue
for slander at the slightest chance so as to discourage the public presses
from mentioning Scientology." "It is my specific intention that by the use
of professional PR [black PR] tactics any opposition not only be dulled but
permanently iradicated." From a confidential Board Policy Letter of 30 may
1974 Handling Hostile Agents/Dead Agenting.
"If possible, of course, ruin him [the enemy] utterly." From "A Manual on the
Dissemination of Material" (1955) by L. Ron Hubbard.
"NEVER agree to an investigation of Scientology. ONLY agree to investigate the
attackers....This is the correct procedure: (1) Spot who is attacking us. (2)
Start investigating them for FELONIES or worse, using our own professionals,
not outside agencies. (3) Double curve our reply by saying we welcome an
investigation of them. (4) Start feeding lurid, blood, sex, crime actual
evidence on the attackers to the press....Don't ever submit tamely to an
investigation of us. Make it rough on the attackers all the way....You can get
"reasonable about it" and lose .... so BANISH all ideas that any fair hearing
is intended and start our attack with their first breath. Never wait. Never
talk about us -- only them. Use their blood, sex, crime to get headlines.
Don't use us." From HCO policy letter of 25 Feb. 1966, "Attacks on
Scientology."
In his 1984 ruling in the California Superior Court, Judge Breckenridge
stated, "In addition to violating and abusing its own members civil rights,
the organization over the years with its `Fair Game' doctrine has harassed and
abused those persons not in the Church whom it perceives as enemies."
We're waiting for you to 'splain this bit 'o scripture (above)
Dobe R Mann
SP2
__________________________________________________________________
"Look netizens! Another person just read about the Co$, Xenu, Elron and the
rest of the rot." "Watch now! .... look! .... oooohhh there he goes folks!
He's posting on ARS"
___________________________________________________________________
EVENT 3
LOUD CLAP
LIGHTS COME ON (LIGHT)
TWO LOUD CLAPS
LIGHTS GO OFF (DARK)
LOUD CLAP
LIGHTS COME ON (LIGHT)
TWO LOUD CLAPS
LIGHTS GO OFF (DARK)
CLAP ON CLAP OFF--THE CLAPTRAP
Arbe
publicr...@scientology.org wrote:
<+ This comparison is completely specious.
<+
<+ Blacks fought for their civil rights
<+ One of the false statements which has been made
<+ about Scientology is that the Church "harasses its
<+ critics." This false claim has been made by some
<+ apostates, has no bearing in truth and is no
<+ different from similar criticisms made by apostates
<+ of other religions. Scientologists follow a strict
<+ ethical code which forbids illegal activity.
*** Well- jaywalking is obviously forbidden -
Trespass - obviously not illegal according to CO$
Fraud - Grady has documented that -
at least the tacoma Police seem to think so.
- but not illegal according to CO$ ??
Blue laundry Balls - nothing illegal there? - State of Oregon seems to
feel different.
- Why not put out an official list of things that CO$ says is legal, and
also illegal.
The
<+ Church does legally pursue protection of its rights
<+ and the rights of its members when such rights are
<+ violated. When the Church is forced to take legal
<+ action to defend itself against people who publish
<+ stolen Church scriptures -
** Sure- all Churches punish those wo stel the Bible, the Koran, etc..
How many churches have harassed those wo publish their scriptures ??
Facts Please
, spread a campaign of hate
<+ and intolerance towards Scientologists, and threaten
<+ Scient ologists with violence,
*** I guess Keith Henson must have threatned a scieno by putting his neck
in a choke hold ?? Of course dropping a 1000 page court filing on a CO$
lawyer is a major crime in your dictionary .. isn't it ?
individuals who are
<+ brought to justice decry the effort as an attempt to
<+ "harass critics."
*** Thats why you are in such a hurry to pay Wollersheim isn't it ??
That is simply not true -- it
<+ merely represents legal protection of human rights
<+ and civil rights of the Church and its parishioners.
*** Explain Lisa's human rights please
<+
<+ Religious scholars have routinely found the
<+ testimony and public statements of apostates to be
<+ unreliable.
*** you mean " The Hubbard " made false statements ?
<+ The repeating patterns described by experts
<+ become evident when examining the critics of
<+ Scientology who have claimed they are being
<+ harassed.
<+
<
*** Explain Snow White - explain Wollersheim - explain the IRS -
On second thought -- I think the court records do a more honest job -
obvioulsy all the judges arfe against you - and a few countries --
------
--
--ARBE-- Remove arbe from e-mail
-- INAL- Damages limited to what you paid me for my opinion --
Boudewijn van Ingen
(Public Relations) wrote:
> This comparison is completely specious.
I don't think so. The senseless hate that "shines" from all those
writings by LRH directs me to believe otherwise.
> Blacks fought for their civil rights
> because they were being discriminated against and
> persecuted in a white-dominated society in which
> they had to live. All black people were involved in
> this struggle, either directly or indirectly,
> because it impinged directly on their own lives.
Scientology "impinges" on my life, though I have no quarrel with any
individual scientologist. Why do you think it is, that merely posing
questions about the conduct of your "church"'s management gets me on
their list?
> The so-called "critics" of Scientology are
> outside the Church and some have never even been
> members. Nobody is asking them to join. The
> Church's own members are happy with their religion,
> confident in its management, practice their religion
> voluntarily and find it spiritually fulfilling.
I have never objected to any of those "Church's own members" that are
"happy with their religion". However I appreciate the fact that I
still have the right to ventilate my thoughts on that same "church"'s
management. I have no doubt that the "members" "find it spiritually
fulfilling", but again I reserve the right to speak out about my
doubts about the "voluntary" coercion methods used by that same
(alledged) "church".
The only thing I have noticed so far, is that that same "church" is
trying to take *my* rights away, in sometimes very devious ways...
> Moreover, Scientologists have fought hard and
> long for the rights of others, including for black
> people.
They have until now not succeeded in taking all these rights away from
them, you mean? How weak. ;-)
> One of the false statements which has been made
> about Scientology is that the Church "harasses its
> critics." This false claim has been made by some
> apostates, has no bearing in truth and is no
> different from similar criticisms made by apostates
> of other religions. Scientologists follow a strict
> ethical code which forbids illegal activity.
Too bad that this "church" of yours has redifined so many words. In
scientology, words like "truth" and "ethical" and "illegal" are
defined quite differently than in common (American) English. Or hadn't
you noticed? I'm sure everyone outside of scientology noticed...
Do you need some help, or can you "spot" the differences yourself?
> The
> Church does legally pursue protection of its rights
> and the rights of its members when such rights are
> violated. When the Church is forced to take legal
> action to defend itself against people who publish
> stolen Church scriptures, spread a campaign of hate
> and intolerance towards Scientologists, and threaten
> Scient ologists with violence, individuals who are
> brought to justice decry the effort as an attempt to
> "harass critics." That is simply not true -- it
> merely represents legal protection of human rights
> and civil rights of the Church and its parishioners.
Do you mean to say that scientologists never break laws? Or just that
they never "harass"? Do you need examples of either? How many?
Of course what you state above is merely an "acceptable truth". In
fact, "The Church" does *much more* than just "legally pursue
protection of its rights and the rights of its members". It does so
illegally too. And those "scriptures" you're talking about are not
"stolen". Most of the time they were published by the "church" first.
And this line about "a campaign of hate and intolerance" just shows
that you are unable to understand criticism or the ridicule you have
invited upon yourself, by believing in space cooties in the first
place. And hey: I haven't ever "threatened scientologists with
violence". Let's hope that remains "true for me", shall we? BTW have
you read Hubbard on the use of the law to harrass?
> Religious scholars have routinely found the
> testimony and public statements of apostates to be
> unreliable.
>
> Lonnie Kliever, Professor of Religious Studies,
> Southern Methodist Univer sity, Dallas, Texas,
> states:
I have made a note of his name. A preliminary first search on the Web
showed many scientology "associations". He seems to be a buddy of
Melton.
This man seems to be used quite a lot by scientology to explain why
"critics" are not to "trustworthy": because they are ex-members.
Now what I would like to have him explain is the *hate* scientologists
display to those critics that have never been scientologists.
> "... Certainly all new religions hold beliefs
FLUNK! I have no quarrel with scientology about those stupid "beliefs"
of yours. It is the *proven* criminal conduct of the management of
your moneygrabbing criminal operation that I object to. DEAL WITH IT.
> The repeating patterns described by experts
> become evident when examining the critics of
> Scientology who have claimed they are being
> harassed.
I have never been, nor will I ever be a scientologist. I have never
sought any confrontation with scientology. I'm merely here to ask
questions, to point at things I don't understand, in the hope that
someday, some scientologist will lay all my doubts and worries to
rest.
The hatred I find back in all "official" scientology "comm" with the
"wogs" won't "handle" that, ever.
(The unfounded "beliefs" of individual scientologists, however
sincere, will not either, for obvious reasons.)
Groeten,
Boudewijn,
Kox.
Paper Tiger
In Message-ID: <35ed9a33...@news.earthlink.net>,
publicr...@scientology.org (Public Relations) wrote:
>
> This comparison is completely specious.
<sniff> <sniff>
Smells like... Andy Milne.
> The so-called "critics" of Scientology are
> outside the Church and some have never even been
> members. Nobody is asking them to join. The
> Church's own members are happy with their religion,
> confident in its management, practice their religion
> voluntarily and find it spiritually fulfilling.
Why then are 98% of the people who've tried Scientology not
Scientologists? Your president Heber claims 10 million members (based
on the number of people who've taken your "personality tests" or sent
back the postcard from the back of Dianetics), when you'd be lucky if
you even had 200,000.
> Moreover, Scientologists have fought hard and
> long for the rights of others, including for black
> people.
Then it should be trivial to provide some examples, yes?
> One of the false statements which has been made
> about Scientology is that the Church "harasses its
> critics."
Ah. Maybe you could explain why you folks are picketing their homes,
then? Including the home of a pair of little girls, who despite what
you or I or anyone thinks of their father have done absolutely
nothing to you, under the guise of CARING ABOUT THEIR WELFARE?
You folks stink on ice, Andy.
** Paper Tiger (SP3+, KBM, BBSNN, LFDoX)
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Al Landeck
In article <35ed9a33...@news.earthlink.net>,
Public Relations <publicr...@scientology.org> wrote:
>
> This comparison is completely specious.
>
> Blacks fought for their civil rights
> because they were being discriminated against and
> persecuted in a white-dominated society in which
> they had to live. All black people were involved in
> this struggle, either directly or indirectly,
> because it impinged directly on their own lives.
>
> The so-called "critics" of Scientology are
> outside the Church and some have never even been
> members. Nobody is asking them to join. The
... and some HAVE been members, those individuals seem to also have the
most compelling arguments against the church (spit).
> Church's own members are happy with their religion,
> confident in its management, practice their religion
> voluntarily and find it spiritually fulfilling.
If the person didn't like the "religion", then what happens to them?
RPF? Sec. Check? Lowered condition on the tone scale? Finally a
declaration of SP status and the practice formerly known as fair game?
The proof of this is in the countless affidavids of ex-members that have
been upheld in courts of law. Aznaran, Taboyan, Fishman, RVY to name
a few. I wonder what will happen to the existing cases when the Prince
affadavid hits the judge and jury?
>
> Moreover, Scientologists have fought hard and
> long for the rights of others, including for black
> people.
I don't remember seeing pictures of Hubbard in Selma, do you?
>
> One of the false statements which has been made
> about Scientology is that the Church "harasses its
> critics." This false claim has been made by some
> apostates, has no bearing in truth and is no
> different from similar criticisms made by apostates
> of other religions. Scientologists follow a strict
> ethical code which forbids illegal activity. The
Actually, the ethical code of the Co$ specifically has quotes
like this:
"Somebody some day will say 'this is illegal'.
By then be sure the orgs say what is legal or not."
-- L. Ron Hubbard, HCOPL 4th Jan 1966
This isn't the kind of statement made by an organization with a
strict ethical code forbiding illegal activity.
> Church does legally pursue protection of its rights
> and the rights of its members when such rights are
> violated. When the Church is forced to take legal
> action to defend itself against people who publish
> stolen Church scriptures, spread a campaign of hate
> and intolerance towards Scientologists, and threaten
> Scient ologists with violence, individuals who are
> brought to justice decry the effort as an attempt to
> "harass critics." That is simply not true -- it
> merely represents legal protection of human rights
> and civil rights of the Church and its parishioners.
>
> Religious scholars have routinely found the
> testimony and public statements of apostates to be
> unreliable.
>
> Lonnie Kliever, Professor of Religious Studies,
> Southern Methodist Univer sity, Dallas, Texas,
> states:
>
> "... Certainly all new religions hold beliefs
> and practices that are at variance with mainstream
> religions. Not surprisingly, given these rigorous
> demands, some of those who became involved soon
> decided that a particular relig ious movement is not
> for them and leave. Their departure usually goes
> unnotice d because most of the individuals involved
> regard their past experience positiv ely as one more
> step in their own spiritual journey.
This is where things start to get sticky, the problem being
that the "Church" of Scientology isn't really a church. it certainly
didn't start that way, and only became a church when the tax
implications became apparent. Sidestepping medical authority
was also a prime motivator.
I prefer Germany's analysis of Scientology as a totalitarian, anti-
democratic money making enterprise.
When was the last time you got to vote on something in Co$?
>
> "But in contrast to the above, among those who
> leave voluntarily are a few defectors who gained a
> great notoriety by publicly attacking their former
> religious associations and activities through the
> press and in the courts. As welcome sources of
> information for a public both curious and fearful
> about the se unfamiliar new religions, such
> apostates are often treated as cause celebres rather
> than as social outcasts."
Doubtless true in many cases. I would however not agree with
you that the refugees that appeared here are groundlessly attacking
the Co$. Many of them didn't leave voluntarily either, when
threats and coercion hang over ones head, exiting is a practice
of survival, not voluntary defection as you suggest.
>
> The repeating patterns described by experts
> become evident when examining the critics of
> Scientology who have claimed they are being
> harassed.
The comparison between the Co$ and the southern segragationists still
appears to be a valid comparison.
Al
>
>
>On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 06:52:53 GMT, cul...@primenet.com wrote:
>
>>David Miscavige = Bull Connor
>>
>> We as critics of Scientology can learn a lot from the successes of
>>the U.S. civil rights movement in the early 1960's.
><snip>
>> Segregationists tried the usual methods of intimidation on the
>>civil rights activists. They attacked their families, [p.165] as
>>Scientology has done to Grady Ward, Bob Minton, myself, and many
>>others.
>>
>>Jeff Jacobsen
>>August 27, 1998
>>for the ARSCC
>>
>>*****
>>
>>"The idea that one can 'push' Scientology
>>and get no penalty is a false one." Russell Shaw
>> "To punish to the fullest extent of my power anyone
>>misusing or degrading Scientology to harmful ends" (The
>>original Code of a Scientologist)
>>
>>
>
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cul...@primenet.com
> This comparison is completely specious.
Not so, it's very good. Scientology uses the same methods as the
segregationists. We use the same methods as the civil rights
activists. The result will be the same too.
> Blacks fought for their civil rights
> because they were being discriminated against and
> persecuted in a white-dominated society in which
> they had to live. All black people were involved in
> this struggle, either directly or indirectly,
> because it impinged directly on their own lives.
[snip]
> Moreover, Scientologists have fought hard and
> long for the rights of others, including for black
> people.
Uh, did you know that Hubbard made the following statement?
The number of engrams in a Zulu would be astonishing. Moved out of
his restimulative area and taught English he would escape the penalty
of much of his reactive data; but in his native habitat the Zulu is
only outside the bars of a madhouse because there are no madhouses
provided by his tribe.
[ Dianetics, book 2, chapter 8, paragraph 9]
By the way, how many orgs and missions do you have in Africa? What
percentage of Scientologists are black?
> One of the false statements which has been made
> about Scientology is that the Church "harasses its
> critics." This false claim has been made by some
> apostates, has no bearing in truth and is no
> different from similar criticisms made by apostates
> of other religions.
This is the stupidest most bald-faced lie I've ever seen a
Scientoligist say.
> Religious scholars have routinely found the
> testimony and public statements of apostates to be
> unreliable.
Uh, same as Sammy the Bull? Didn't a lot of mafioso go to prison
because this ex-Mafia member sang? I thought ex-members were
unreliable?
DeoMorto
> people.>>
what a crock. Scientology and scientologists have fought for nothing other
than their own gains. Sometimes that has helped other groups sometimes it has
totally ignored them.
The only time scientology even talks about helping anyone else is when they
wish to issue a press release and if they were just being honest they would
appear to be the greedheads that they are.
DeoMorto - the truly censored.
BP
First of all, I would like to thank the Co$ for this wonderful broadside of bullets
into its own flanks. Now that the bastards are _officially_ on ARS, we can
show to all readers that the lies, bigotry, and ruthlessness documented in
this newsgroup are, in fact, official policy and present behaviour of the CSI.
In article <35ed9a33...@news.earthlink.net>, publicr...@scientology.org says...
>
>
> This comparison is completely specious.
>
> One of the false statements which has been made
> about Scientology is that the Church "harasses its
> critics." This false claim has been made by some
> apostates, has no bearing in truth and is no
> different from similar criticisms made by apostates
> of other religions.
I have been legally and non-violently picketing your Mesa, AZ site
for over 18 months. What I do is completely protected by the Bill
of Rights, yet the Co$ has tried (and failed) to stop me with
a legally ludicrous attempt at an injunction and by distributing
libelous leaflets about me in my neighborhood. This is harassment.
This is an attempt to thwart my free speech. You lie.
keshet
I find the Miscavige = Connor comparision....wickedly delicious.
Consider this: civil rights activists were able to play Bull Connor
like a violin, i.e., they purposely arranged confrontations with
him because he could be counted on to respond in absurdly hateful
ways, thus graphically demonstrating white bigotry for world to see.
Sort of the civil rights version of Operation Foot Bullet.
> Blacks fought for their civil rights
> because they were being discriminated against and
> persecuted in a white-dominated society in which
> they had to live. All black people were involved in
> this struggle, either directly or indirectly,
> because it impinged directly on their own lives.
>
> The so-called "critics" of Scientology are
> outside the Church and some have never even been
> members.
Let's see...you are saying that if I were a so-called white, I
would have no business taking part in the civil rights movement
because I am outside the black community and have never even been
a member. Have I got that right??
<snip>
> Moreover, Scientologists have fought hard and
> long for the rights of others, including for black
> people.
How? There is no historical record of Scientology's participation
in the civil rights movement, though many other religous groups were
active: Baptists, Friends, Methodists, Episcopalians, Cathoics, NOI,
Jews. Where was the Church of Scientology??
<snipped the rest of the painfully obtuse p.r. attempt>
Keshet
--
Kes...@CyberPass.Net * http://thingy.apana.org.au/~fun/scn/racism/
Where prejudice exists it always discolors our thoughts. -Mark Twain
David Gerard
Relations) wrote:
: This comparison is completely specious.
:
: Blacks fought for their civil rights
: because they were being discriminated against and
: persecuted in a white-dominated society in which
: they had to live. All black people were involved in
: this struggle, either directly or indirectly,
: because it impinged directly on their own lives.
:
: The so-called "critics" of Scientology are
: outside the Church and some have never even been
: members. Nobody is asking them to join. The
: Church's own members are happy with their religion,
: confident in its management, practice their religion
: voluntarily and find it spiritually fulfilling.
Does anyone recognise this particular slab of text? (They use the same
slabs over and over again without marking them as such.)
I'm trying to pick who is doing their PR now.
--
http://thingy.apana.org.au/~fun/ AGSF Unit 0|4 http://suburbia.net/~fun/
Stop JUNK EMAIL Boycott AMAZON.COM http://mickc.home.mindspring.com/index1.htm
"Then they gave me the funky tin-can machine. That was when I knew I was
dealing with fruit-loops." (H*ydn Bl*ck on $cientology)
David Gerard
wrote:
:In Message-ID: <35ed9a33...@news.earthlink.net>,
:publicr...@scientology.org (Public Relations) wrote:
:> This comparison is completely specious.
: <sniff> <sniff>
: Smells like... Andy Milne.
[...]
: You folks stink on ice, Andy.
Can we be at all sure it's actually Milne himself? This looks like slabs of
old propaganda pumped out again.
Has Milne's name appeared on recent issues of 'Freedom'?
The account mi...@crl.com appears to be gone.
Paper Tiger
In Message-ID: <35fa48a2...@202.12.87.97>,
f...@thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) wrote:
>:> This comparison is completely specious.
>
>: <sniff> <sniff>
>: Smells like... Andy Milne.
> [...]
>: You folks stink on ice, Andy.
>
>
>Can we be at all sure it's actually Milne himself?
No, we can't.
>This looks like slabs of old propaganda pumped out again.
Well put - but that's just about all Andy ever did himself.
>Has Milne's name appeared on recent issues of 'Freedom'?
Dunno. Anybody?
>The account mi...@crl.com appears to be gone.
Yep, disappeared over a year ago at least. They probably decided they
didn't need to pay for separate named accounts when they could be as
many real or mocked-up people as they liked through anon remailers
and dejanews.
It could be Andy, his replacement or even a critic having a bit of a
giggle. I could even lean toward the latter: a PR-bot on ARS does
the COS more harm than good, as everything it says is going to be
discussed and debunked again for anyone that missed the arguments
years ago. They'd be a lot better off mooing about Minton than
bringing up any real issues, but then again the COS continually
surprises me at how utterly stupid they can be.
Anyway, I've decided for the time being to call it "Andy". That's so
much more human than "publicrelations".
** Paper Tiger (SP3+, KBM, BBSNN, LFDoX)
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Deana Marie Holmes
>Let's see...you are saying that if I were a so-called white, I
>would have no business taking part in the civil rights movement
>because I am outside the black community and have never even been
>a member. Have I got that right??
That's exactly what they're saying.
My OTVIII handler, Phil Parke, is always going back to this. Why am I
picketing, if I've never been a Scn, he keeps asking me.
Next time he asks that I'm going to ask him if a person has to be
incarcerated and tortured in order to write letters for Amnesty
International.
Deana Marie Holmes
The Few, The Proud, The Banned (2x + 1 ISP on Scientology ban list)
$cientology: Sponsor Windows84: "Where CAN'T you go today?
mir...@xmission.com
Mike O'Connor
> On 3 Sep 1998 07:06:45 GMT, kes...@cyberpass.net (keshet) wrote:
>
> >Let's see...you are saying that if I were a so-called white, I
> >would have no business taking part in the civil rights movement
> >because I am outside the black community and have never even been
> >a member. Have I got that right??
>
> That's exactly what they're saying.
>
> My OTVIII handler, Phil Parke, is always going back to this. Why am I
> picketing, if I've never been a Scn, he keeps asking me.
>
> Next time he asks that I'm going to ask him if a person has to be
> incarcerated and tortured in order to write letters for Amnesty
> International.
Sounds like that guy believes he fights the good fight against so-called
"suppressives."
Does he believe he has to be a suppressive before he can fight against them?
-Mike
giz...@my-dejanews.com
mir...@newsguy.com wrote:
> On 3 Sep 1998 07:06:45 GMT, kes...@cyberpass.net (keshet) wrote:
>
> >Let's see...you are saying that if I were a so-called white, I
> >would have no business taking part in the civil rights movement
> >because I am outside the black community and have never even been
> >a member. Have I got that right??
>
> That's exactly what they're saying.
>
> My OTVIII handler, Phil Parke, is always going back to this. Why am I
> picketing, if I've never been a Scn, he keeps asking me.
>
> Next time he asks that I'm going to ask him if a person has to be
> incarcerated and tortured in order to write letters for Amnesty
> International.
Most of the people running Amnesty International have not been tortured
or incarcerated ... perhaps they should just disband ;-)
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Kristi Wachter
> On 3 Sep 1998 07:06:45 GMT, kes...@cyberpass.net (keshet) wrote:
>
> >Let's see...you are saying that if I were a so-called white, I
> >would have no business taking part in the civil rights movement
> >because I am outside the black community and have never even been
> >a member. Have I got that right??
>
> That's exactly what they're saying.
>
> My OTVIII handler, Phil Parke, is always going back to this. Why am I
> picketing, if I've never been a Scn, he keeps asking me.
>
> Next time he asks that I'm going to ask him if a person has to be
> incarcerated and tortured in order to write letters for Amnesty
> International.
You might also ask him whether personally experiencing psychiatric abuse
is a prerequisite for attending a CCHR picket or activity.
Kristi
--
Kristi Wachter
the activist formerly known as "Jour" (until $cientology outed me)
I think $cientology is hurting people and breaking the law, and I
want them to stop it. See http://members.aol.com/jour0 for more.
Kristi Wachter
In article <35ed9a33...@news.earthlink.net>,
publicr...@scientology.org wrote:
> Blacks fought for their civil rights
> because they were being discriminated against and
> persecuted in a white-dominated society in which
> they had to live. All black people were involved in
> this struggle, either directly or indirectly,
> because it impinged directly on their own lives.
>
> The so-called "critics" of Scientology are
> outside the Church and some have never even been
> members. Nobody is asking them to join. The
> Church's own members are happy with their religion,
> confident in its management, practice their religion
> voluntarily and find it spiritually fulfilling.
Not everyone who fought for civil rights was black.
Not everyone who fought for the abolition of slavery was a former slave,
or involved in slavery in any way.
Not everyone who fought for fair labor laws had been a victim of unfair
labor practices.
Some of us work for justice for other people. Some of us think beyond ourselves.
> One of the false statements which has been made
> about Scientology is that the Church "harasses its
> critics." This false claim has been made by some
> apostates, has no bearing in truth and is no
> different from similar criticisms made by apostates
> of other religions.
My $cientology handlers claim that I harass $cientology by picketing its
offices. Was $cientology harassing me by picketing my residence? Was it
harassing me by handing out libellous fliers to my neighbors and business
associates? Was it harassing me by following me in a car through the
streets of Los Angeles? I felt harassed because of $cientology's actions.
Didn't Judge Breckenridge find that $cientology does, indeed, harass its
critics?
> Scientologists follow a strict
> ethical code which forbids illegal activity.
... and yet the Scientologists who are responsible for payroll carry out
the illegal $cn policy of failing to pay minimum wage.
> Religious scholars have routinely found the
> testimony and public statements of apostates to be
> unreliable.
How nice for them. What about the rest of us - people like judges, and
official bodies of enquiry, and the general public?
Deana Marie Holmes
human...@delete-this-bit.racerrecords.com (Kristi Wachter) wrote:
>You might also ask him whether personally experiencing psychiatric abuse
>is a prerequisite for attending a CCHR picket or activity.
This one is a keeper!
Steve A
wrote:
> In article <35ed9a33...@news.earthlink.net>,
> publicr...@scientology.org
> nattered:
>
> [chomp .. blechk!]
>
> > One of the false statements which has been made
> > about Scientology is that the Church "harasses its
> > critics." This false claim has been made by some
> > apostates, has no bearing in truth and is no
> > different from similar criticisms made by apostates
> > of other religions. Scientologists follow a strict
> > ethical code which forbids illegal activity.
>
> [chomp ... blechk!]
>
> Oh!? What say ye to the following?:
>
> "An enemy [any critic of Scientology], "[they] may be deprived of property or
> injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the
> Scientologist...may be tricked, sued, lied to, or destroyed." From the words
> of L. Ron Hubbard in HCO policy letter of 18 October 1967, known as the "Fair
> Game Policy."
What they will say is "you're quoting out of context".
Quote *with* context, and they'll gripe about "copyright terrorism".
--
Steve A, SP4++, GGBC, KBM, Unsalvageable PTS/SP #12,
pitiable little Dennie (plD) #1
Banned by Windows 1984 ScienoSitter (2e+isp)
"Where don't they want you to go today?" - http://www.xenu.net
Starshadow
ste...@castlsys.demon.co.uk says...
Of course, stalking, hiring PIs to steal photographs from elderly
mothers, kidnapping, criminal trespass, and assault upon peaceful
demonstrators, not to mention worse allegations, all give the lie to
their ethics forbidding illegal activities.
Michael 'Mike' Gormez
Ingen) wrote:
>Scientology "impinges" on my life, though I have no quarrel with any
>individual scientologist.
Don't lie Boudewijn, admit that the blond scientologist camera woman does
touch a string with you :8)
Hey, I admit that I'm in luff of an OSA babe!..
M (Still haven't written city-hall. 'bout time for another picket, huh?)
Michael 'Mike' Gormez
publicr...@scientology.org (Public Relations) wrote:
> One of the false statements which has been made
> about Scientology is that the Church "harasses its
> critics." This false claim has been made by some
> apostates,
Sorry hon, no hot-chocalate for you this evening.
THE LATEY JUDGEMENT
Delivered in the High Court (Family Division)
London, 23 July 1984
"It [Scn] is sinister because it indulges in infamous practices
both to its adherents who do not toe the line unquestioningly and to
those outside who criticise or oppose it. It is dangerous because it
is out to capture people, especially children and impressionable
young people, and indoctrinate and brainwash them so that they
become the unquestioning captives and tools of the cult, withdrawn
from ordinary thought, living and relationships with others."
http://www.demon.co.uk/castle/audit/latey.html
See, also judges have commented on the immoral harassment by your company.
Mike
--
Why are these people dead Scientology?
http://www.enturbulate.nu/