Be Glad You Lost, Julie

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Dan Garvin

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Nov 9, 2003, 12:16:37 AM11/9/03
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In the summer of 1985, I had been in OSA Int for less than a year. I
was in charge of external computerization for OSA, which meant I got
to go all over the place setting up and taking care of anything that
had a CPU and wasn't inside OSA Int. Up in Portland, Oregon, the
"Christo Trial" was getting going. There was already a Trial Unit of
OSA Int, OSA US, local DSA and other staff and some volunteers. Some
attorneys were also in Portland – Earle Cooley was the main one I
dealt with. Miscavige was there, as were Marty Rathbun, Mike Sutter,
Lynn Farny, Ken Long, Karen Hollander, and many other names you'd
recognize. Many famous SPs were there too. Somebody got a nice picture
once of Gerry Armstrong flipping the bird at the camera as he was
leaving the courtroom.

The Christo Trial was a damages suit by Julie Christofferson against
the Church in Portland for, IIRC, fraud and emotional distress and a
number of related torts. By that time she was Julie Titchbourne, but
we still called the case Christo in OSA.

After a while, I was called up from LA. There were two or three
condominiums in the same building in downtown Portland, near the
courthouse. One was Earle Cooley's; one was the work and research area
for the OSA Int execs and senior Legal personnel; I think there was a
third one for the ASI/RTC personnel (at that time, Miscavige was still
calling himself ED ASI, although he was just as much the boss of
everything as he is now, at least as far as OSA was concerned). These
condos were fairly luxurious. The lesser beings worked in the Trial
Unit at the Celebrity Centre. I got to work in the OSA Int Condo,
although I slept in a hotel some distance away.

The reason I was brought up is that they wanted transcripts of the
proceedings loaded into computers on a daily basis so they could be
searched by Cooley, Farny, Long, et al. At first, so I was told by one
of the attorneys (probably Tim Bowles), we were not even supposed to
have been given the transcripts. Only the attorneys were allowed to
have them, for some reason. So our attorneys of course violated this
order and gave the transcripts to me and to other personnel. But I got
pretty crappy copies. I had miniature duplicates of the INCOMM
computers set up in the condo. They were made by a company called
WICAT, and they had a Unix-like proprietary operating system. We had
one or two OCR – optical character recognition – machines set up. In
those days, OCRing was pretty primitive (or prohibitively expensive),
and these could only handle certain fonts, which had to be in very
good condition. So the crappy and illicit copies we were getting had
to be mostly typed in by hand, and for that there were about a half
dozen personnel who had been doing that type of thing in LA.

Later they got permission to let us have copies of the transcripts,
and the quality improved vastly. The other typists were sent home and
I was pretty much running the whole computer show. I could OCR and
correct everything by myself. We had huge rack-mount tape drives with
twelve- or fourteen-inch reels, each holding 10 MB of data. I used
these for backups and to transfer the data up to the computer in Earle
Cooley's condo. The information was loaded into a database that INCOMM
called FAST, which was like SIR, or Source Information Retrieval,
which is all the LRH issues (of all kinds, and advices too for those
authorized) in a searchable database. FAST was the same system
exactly, but for non-LRH material. OSA was inputting all the documents
in all legal cases, and later added just about everything else as
well. When a case was going on, everybody would rush to get it into
FAST as soon as possible so the legal vultures could pick it over for
anything they could use to win points the next day in court.

The Christo case is a fascinating story, but one I don't know very
well. What's relevant to this post is, we lost. The jury awarded Julie
Titchbourne something like $30 million. Nothing like this had ever
happened before (so I was told and believed). The loss would set a
precedent and all the other "frivolous" deep-pocket lawsuits against
Scientology churches would fall like dominoes in favor of the enemy.
We were crushed. I had not been in the courtroom once the whole time I
was there, but I came down to hear the decision – and share in the
victory. When I heard the award against us, I literally did not know
what to do. I thought it was the end of the world, or pretty close. It
was impossible and unthinkable. Our religion could be shut down by
ambulance-chasing attorneys and professional victims. I wandered out
of the courtroom in a daze. I went down to a park in town and just
walked around. Everything seemed surreal. But I realized we would not
just cave in. We would appeal. We would fight with every ounce of our
strength, and when that was gone, we would still fight on. I started
to feel a little better. All the same, it was unbelievable. After all,
RTC and ASI were running things directly, and if anybody would make
sure LRH legal tech was standardly applied, they would – and still we
lost. Man, there must be some heavy-duty corruption going on behind
the scenes, to create such a miscarriage of justice! Well, we'd find
that, too, and somehow we'd win. We had to. The survival of the world
depended on it.

So I got tired of moping and headed back to the condo. The execs and
OSA guys were there; I don't remember which ones but probably most of
the ones who normally worked or attended conferences there. Nobody was
saying much; it looked like everybody else hadn't finished moping yet.
So I took a hint and resumed moping. Every once in a while somebody
would wonder what the hell we were going to do, or what went wrong,
and speculate about how bad it was going to be.

After a while, the CO OSA Int, Mike Sutter, spoke up. He said
(paraphrasing), "I don't care if she thinks she won. That bitch is
never going to see one single cent. I'll kill her first. I don't care
if I get the chair -- it's worth it. It's just one lifetime."

I froze. I wasn't moving much to begin with, but I froze solid. I
didn't want to breathe. I forgot all about our immediate problems. My
CO had just said he was going to murder Julie Titchbourne. He was
absolutely serious. I was in shock. Sure, she deserved to die – all
SPs did. But you can't actually *do* that that sort of thing. My
thoughts raced. Please, I thought, please, somebody say something that
will make this stop. I was trying to think what I could say. If I said
the wrong thing, or said it the wrong way, I'd be out of there that
night and getting sec checked the next day. But this was madness!

There was not a sound in the room. It seemed like ten minutes but was
probably only one. Finally Miscavige spoke up. Here's what he *didn't*
say: He didn't say, "Sutter, you're fucking crazy, we don't kill
people!" He didn't say, "You're joking, right?" He didn't explain that
Julie's estate would still get the money or that killing a plaintiff
would be a hundred times worse for the Church than paying her even the
whole $30 million. He just said, "No, this is what we're going to do."
And then launched what within a day or two became the Portland
Crusade.

The Crusade, along with a lot of flanking actions and, according to
Cooley, his own research in the database I'd put together for him,
worked, and the Judge, Londer, eventually threw out the decision.
Julie would have had to start from scratch, with much tighter
restrictions on what was admissible as evidence. I guess they just
gave up.

Julie deserved that money, or at least some compensation for being
screwed over by Scientology. I'm sorry for my part in stopping her
from getting paid. But, then again, if the Crusade and everything had
failed and she had won in the end, I wonder if Sutter would ultimately
have made good on his promise to murder her. Even if the estate still
collected Julie's money, it sure would have made other plaintiffs
think twice about their own cases. It may be that Julie's loss is the
only reason she is alive today.

One thing I am absolutely certain of. When Mike Sutter said he would
kill her, he meant it, absolutely and literally. He certainly was not
reprimanded or corrected at the time by anyone for suggesting this,
and if any action was taken against him later, it was nothing I ever
heard about – nor did anybody ever pull me aside and say, "You know we
would never actually do that, right?" or some such. In fact, a few
months later he was promoted to RTC. He was still in RTC as late as
1995 or so. I don't know if he has been seen in the last few years.
That could mean a number of things. He could just have a post that
never requires him to leave the Gold Base, or he could have gone to
the RPF, or he could have been transferred somewhere else on some
secret post or mission. Or, for all I know, he could have gone off to
do the Hit Man Full Hat and Apprenticeship.

Hubbard's Code of Honor says, near as I can recall, "Your honor and
integrity are more important than your physical body." Also, the third
and fourth dynamics (the group Scientology, and all mankind) are more
important than anyone's first dynamic (self – an SP's life or the life
of whatever hero murdered the SP). To the average Scientologist and
perhaps the average SO member, this interpretation of those ideals may
sound extreme, even beyond extreme. As one nears the top of the
ladder, though, I think they're pretty typical. What may not be
typical is the willingness to actually go through with it, mainly
because the repercussions on Scientology would be far worse than the
consequences of not committing the murder.

Lurkers, those of you still in the COS – this is a glimpse at a side
of RTC that you don't hear about at the International Events. Next
time you're watching David Miscavige spewing his glib, formulaic PR at
you, try remembering that this is a man to whom murdering a plaintiff
was apparently just another option, one that he ultimately rejected in
favor of a better one, but one he seemed to have no fundamental
objections to.

Dan Garvin

IDA J 007

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Nov 9, 2003, 1:39:08 AM11/9/03
to
>Subject: Be Glad You Lost, Julie
>From: dang...@skyenet.net (Dan Garvin)
>Date: 11/08/2003 9:16 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <587e24f4.03110...@posting.google.com>
Thanks for the story Dan--I followed that too only from the other side. I
corresponded with Julies mother and there is more to the story. I am not
surprised that a member of the old GO would resort to murder for the sake of
the cult.
Julie was lucky to have had a good exit counselor to rid her of the
indoctrination. I believe her mother had Ted Patrick along with others. Julie
was only in the cult a short time which made it easier for her.
She did not end up losing entirely --the monies were reduced but not entirely
from what I was told. She went on to get her engineering degree and married .
The one who suffered most was her lawyer as he was fair/gamed long after the
trial.
Your story just proves what we all say when people tell us "We know that is a
bad outfit" and we can add "It is worse than you think!"

Ida Camburn

lermanet.com/garyweber/

Warrior

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Nov 9, 2003, 2:15:13 AM11/9/03
to
In article <587e24f4.03110...@posting.google.com>, Dan Garvin says...

Thanks for telling about your experiences, Dan. I wish more people were
willing to speak up and tell about their involvement and experiences.

Do you know if Earle Cooley is a member of Scientology? I heard from
a Guardian Office staff member way back around perhaps 1982 that
Cooley had joined. I recall that Cooley was introduced at a big event in
LA, and I got the distinct impression then that he had become a member.

Although I worked primarily in finance during most of my Sea Org days,
I knew many Guardian Office and OSA staff members who were thoroughly
indoctrinated into the Fair Game mentality that "justified" any criminal
actions against those perceived as enemies. And sometimes I would get
a chilling look into their activities while preparing the checks for the ASHO
Guardian Office. You see, for a time, Jerry McNeeley (the AGF ASHO) had
me preparing all of the checks for the local GO. During the administration
of my assigned duties, I would receive the GO Financial Planning folder.
So I had many occasions to read the accompanying requests for funds
(purchase orders and sometimes even the attached "CSWs"). These were
always particularly telling, especially the ones from the AGI Bill Earls, who
ran "ops", and the AG PR John Mettle.

Recently I spoke with a former Sea Org member who knew Ken Hoden
during the time he was in the PAC/GLA GO. My friend heard some really
fascinating stories from Ken about Fair Game activities he carried out.
It seems Ken used to get pretty loose-lipped when he drank, and he would
brag about his Fair Game activities done for the cause of "the greatest
good".

Yuck.

I am so glad I got out of Scientology.


Warrior - Sunshine disinfects
http://warrior.xenu.ca

Tilman Hausherr

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Nov 9, 2003, 5:16:57 AM11/9/03
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On 8 Nov 2003 23:15:13 -0800, Warrior <war...@xenu.ca> wrote in
<bokpi...@drn.newsguy.com>:

>Do you know if Earle Cooley is a member of Scientology?

Yes, he is.

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=rnewman-ya02408000R2102982223560001%40enews.newsguy.com


--
Tilman Hausherr [KoX, SP5.55] Entheta * Enturbulation * Entertainment
til...@berlin.snafu.de http://www.xenu.de

Resistance is futile. You will be enturbulated. Xenu always prevails.

Find broken links on your web site: http://home.snafu.de/tilman/xenulink.html
The Xenu bookstore: http://home.snafu.de/tilman/bookstore.html

Magoo

unread,
Nov 9, 2003, 5:59:15 AM11/9/03
to

"Dan Garvin" <dang...@skyenet.net> wrote in message
news:587e24f4.03110...@posting.google.com...

> In the summer of 1985, I had been in OSA Int for less than a year. I
> was in charge of external computerization for OSA, which meant I got
> to go all over the place setting up and taking care of anything that
> had a CPU and wasn't inside OSA Int. Up in Portland, Oregon, the
> "Christo Trial" was getting going. There was already a Trial Unit of
> OSA Int, OSA US, local DSA and other staff and some volunteers. Some
> attorneys were also in Portland - Earle Cooley was the main one I
> one or two OCR - optical character recognition - machines set up. In
> was there, but I came down to hear the decision - and share in the

> victory. When I heard the award against us, I literally did not know
> what to do. I thought it was the end of the world, or pretty close. It
> was impossible and unthinkable. Our religion could be shut down by
> ambulance-chasing attorneys and professional victims. I wandered out
> of the courtroom in a daze. I went down to a park in town and just
> walked around. Everything seemed surreal. But I realized we would not
> just cave in. We would appeal. We would fight with every ounce of our
> strength, and when that was gone, we would still fight on. I started
> to feel a little better. All the same, it was unbelievable. After all,
> RTC and ASI were running things directly, and if anybody would make
> sure LRH legal tech was standardly applied, they would - and still we

> lost. Man, there must be some heavy-duty corruption going on behind
> the scenes, to create such a miscarriage of justice! Well, we'd find
> that, too, and somehow we'd win. We had to. The survival of the world
> depended on it.
>
> So I got tired of moping and headed back to the condo. The execs and
> OSA guys were there; I don't remember which ones but probably most of
> the ones who normally worked or attended conferences there. Nobody was
> saying much; it looked like everybody else hadn't finished moping yet.
> So I took a hint and resumed moping. Every once in a while somebody
> would wonder what the hell we were going to do, or what went wrong,
> and speculate about how bad it was going to be.
>
> After a while, the CO OSA Int, Mike Sutter, spoke up. He said
> (paraphrasing), "I don't care if she thinks she won. That bitch is
> never going to see one single cent. I'll kill her first. I don't care
> if I get the chair -- it's worth it. It's just one lifetime."
>
> I froze. I wasn't moving much to begin with, but I froze solid. I
> didn't want to breathe. I forgot all about our immediate problems. My
> CO had just said he was going to murder Julie Titchbourne. He was
> absolutely serious. I was in shock. Sure, she deserved to die - all
> heard about - nor did anybody ever pull me aside and say, "You know we

> would never actually do that, right?" or some such. In fact, a few
> months later he was promoted to RTC. He was still in RTC as late as
> 1995 or so. I don't know if he has been seen in the last few years.
> That could mean a number of things. He could just have a post that
> never requires him to leave the Gold Base, or he could have gone to
> the RPF, or he could have been transferred somewhere else on some
> secret post or mission. Or, for all I know, he could have gone off to
> do the Hit Man Full Hat and Apprenticeship.
>
> Hubbard's Code of Honor says, near as I can recall, "Your honor and
> integrity are more important than your physical body." Also, the third
> and fourth dynamics (the group Scientology, and all mankind) are more
> important than anyone's first dynamic (self - an SP's life or the life

> of whatever hero murdered the SP). To the average Scientologist and
> perhaps the average SO member, this interpretation of those ideals may
> sound extreme, even beyond extreme. As one nears the top of the
> ladder, though, I think they're pretty typical. What may not be
> typical is the willingness to actually go through with it, mainly
> because the repercussions on Scientology would be far worse than the
> consequences of not committing the murder.
>
> Lurkers, those of you still in the COS - this is a glimpse at a side

> of RTC that you don't hear about at the International Events. Next
> time you're watching David Miscavige spewing his glib, formulaic PR at
> you, try remembering that this is a man to whom murdering a plaintiff
> was apparently just another option, one that he ultimately rejected in
> favor of a better one, but one he seemed to have no fundamental
> objections to.
>
> Dan Garvin

Amazing.....Dan. Thanks for the details! I came in with the Portland
Crusade, but it's good to hear what went down prior.

I knew Mike Sutter......that's quite a statement! ((And to think they're
trying to pawn off their overts on me, which are utterly false on
"religious" (Oh yeah) Freedom (Sure, sure) Watch (yup).

Thanks again, Dan :)

Tory/Magoo!


Dan Garvin

unread,
Nov 9, 2003, 8:23:58 AM11/9/03
to
Warrior <war...@xenu.ca> wrote in message news:<bokpi...@drn.newsguy.com>...

> In article <587e24f4.03110...@posting.google.com>, Dan Garvin says...
> >
> >In the summer of 1985, I had been in OSA Int for less than a year. I
> >was in charge of external computerization for OSA, which meant I got
> >to go all over the place setting up and taking care of anything that
> >had a CPU and wasn't inside OSA Int. Up in Portland, Oregon, the
> >"Christo Trial" was getting going. There was already a Trial Unit of
> >OSA Int, OSA US, local DSA and other staff and some volunteers. Some
> >attorneys were also in Portland ? Earle Cooley was the main one I
> >one or two OCR ? optical character recognition ? machines set up. In
> >was there, but I came down to hear the decision ? and share in the

> >victory. When I heard the award against us, I literally did not know
> >what to do. I thought it was the end of the world, or pretty close. It
> >was impossible and unthinkable. Our religion could be shut down by
> >ambulance-chasing attorneys and professional victims. I wandered out
> >of the courtroom in a daze. I went down to a park in town and just
> >walked around. Everything seemed surreal. But I realized we would not
> >just cave in. We would appeal. We would fight with every ounce of our
> >strength, and when that was gone, we would still fight on. I started
> >to feel a little better. All the same, it was unbelievable. After all,
> >RTC and ASI were running things directly, and if anybody would make
> >sure LRH legal tech was standardly applied, they would ? and still we

> >lost. Man, there must be some heavy-duty corruption going on behind
> >the scenes, to create such a miscarriage of justice! Well, we'd find
> >that, too, and somehow we'd win. We had to. The survival of the world
> >depended on it.
> >
> >So I got tired of moping and headed back to the condo. The execs and
> >OSA guys were there; I don't remember which ones but probably most of
> >the ones who normally worked or attended conferences there. Nobody was
> >saying much; it looked like everybody else hadn't finished moping yet.
> >So I took a hint and resumed moping. Every once in a while somebody
> >would wonder what the hell we were going to do, or what went wrong,
> >and speculate about how bad it was going to be.
> >
> >After a while, the CO OSA Int, Mike Sutter, spoke up. He said
> >(paraphrasing), "I don't care if she thinks she won. That bitch is
> >never going to see one single cent. I'll kill her first. I don't care
> >if I get the chair -- it's worth it. It's just one lifetime."
> >
> >I froze. I wasn't moving much to begin with, but I froze solid. I
> >didn't want to breathe. I forgot all about our immediate problems. My
> >CO had just said he was going to murder Julie Titchbourne. He was
> >absolutely serious. I was in shock. Sure, she deserved to die ? all
> >heard about ? nor did anybody ever pull me aside and say, "You know we

> >would never actually do that, right?" or some such. In fact, a few
> >months later he was promoted to RTC. He was still in RTC as late as
> >1995 or so. I don't know if he has been seen in the last few years.
> >That could mean a number of things. He could just have a post that
> >never requires him to leave the Gold Base, or he could have gone to
> >the RPF, or he could have been transferred somewhere else on some
> >secret post or mission. Or, for all I know, he could have gone off to
> >do the Hit Man Full Hat and Apprenticeship.
> >
> >Hubbard's Code of Honor says, near as I can recall, "Your honor and
> >integrity are more important than your physical body." Also, the third
> >and fourth dynamics (the group Scientology, and all mankind) are more
> >important than anyone's first dynamic (self ? an SP's life or the life

> >of whatever hero murdered the SP). To the average Scientologist and
> >perhaps the average SO member, this interpretation of those ideals may
> >sound extreme, even beyond extreme. As one nears the top of the
> >ladder, though, I think they're pretty typical. What may not be typical is
> >the willingness to actually go through with it, mainly because the
> >repercussions on Scientology would be far worse than the
> >consequences of not committing the murder.
> >
> >Lurkers, those of you still in the COS ? this is a glimpse at a side

> >of RTC that you don't hear about at the International Events. Next
> >time you're watching David Miscavige spewing his glib, formulaic PR at
> >you, try remembering that this is a man to whom murdering a plaintiff
> >was apparently just another option, one that he ultimately rejected in
> >favor of a better one, but one he seemed to have no fundamental
> >objections to.
> >
> >Dan Garvin
>
> Thanks for telling about your experiences, Dan. I wish more people were
> willing to speak up and tell about their involvement and experiences.
>
> Do you know if Earle Cooley is a member of Scientology? I heard from
> a Guardian Office staff member way back around perhaps 1982 that
> Cooley had joined. I recall that Cooley was introduced at a big event in
> LA, and I got the distinct impression then that he had become a member.

I know he got auditing - in fact he attested to the State of Clear.
But OSA tried to get all the attorneys audited, even if they didn't
want to become Scientologists in any other way. The PR was that it
gave them more "reality" on what they were defending and, of course,
made them more able and successful, in life and in the courtroom. But
it was also intended to "keep their ethics in." A little experience
with getting their missed withholds pulled, and they ought to know
better than to try overbilling or skimping on work. And there was
always the possibility they'd give up something really juicy that
would be handy to have in case the attorney was thinking about
turning, as Joe Yanny had done.

Some -- perhaps most -- steadfastly refused to get any auditing at
all. It might have been a problem in their own religion, or maybe they
just knew better. But honestly, I don't see how any attorney could in
good conscience agree to "tell all" to anybody, since he is bound not
to reveal privileged information from his other clients.

Earle Cooley, though, actually embraced Scientology himself, at least
for a while. I believe he did announce his involvement at an event I
attended; the announcement may have been that he was clear (which I
already knew from being in OSA). He did say that he was proud to call
himself a Scientologist, or something like that. He was a big and
well-known hero, and the crowd went wild. But, as usual, we didn't
hear much about it afterward. I don't know if he continued on the
Bridge, continued calling himself a Scientologist, or just sort of
eased himself back out with no fanfare.

> Although I worked primarily in finance during most of my Sea Org days,
> I knew many Guardian Office and OSA staff members who were thoroughly
> indoctrinated into the Fair Game mentality that "justified" any criminal
> actions against those perceived as enemies. And sometimes I would get
> a chilling look into their activities while preparing the checks for the ASHO
> Guardian Office. You see, for a time, Jerry McNeeley (the AGF ASHO) had
> me preparing all of the checks for the local GO. During the administration
> of my assigned duties, I would receive the GO Financial Planning folder.
> So I had many occasions to read the accompanying requests for funds
> (purchase orders and sometimes even the attached "CSWs"). These were
> always particularly telling, especially the ones from the AGI Bill Earls, who
> ran "ops", and the AG PR John Mettle.

Yup. Nowadays, OSA finances, and in particular the Investigations
(intelligence operations) finances, are among the most carefully
guarded secrets, even within OSA.

Dan

Dan Garvin

unread,
Nov 9, 2003, 8:40:19 AM11/9/03
to
ida...@aol.com (IDA J 007) wrote in message news:<20031109013908...@mb-m27.aol.com>...

I don't think that Mike Sutter was ever in the old GO, although I
could be wrong. He was in OSA, the "new and improved" version that
never does anything illegal or unethical (ROFL). Before OSA he was a
Commodore's Messenger. He might have been in RTC beforehand as well.

> Julie was lucky to have had a good exit counselor to rid her of the
> indoctrination. I believe her mother had Ted Patrick along with others. Julie
> was only in the cult a short time which made it easier for her.
> She did not end up losing entirely --the monies were reduced but not entirely
> from what I was told.

I'm glad. I'll bet COS offered her a settlement to not re-start the
case and to stay quiet forever. I don't recall money actually being
awarded by a jury after that.

> She went on to get her engineering degree and married .

Good for her.

> The one who suffered most was her lawyer as he was fair/gamed long after the
> trial.

Yeah, that's the "head on a pike" policy, which nobody has even
pretended was canceled: when attorneys see what happens to attorneys
whose clients sue Scientology, they don't want to have anything to do
with it. And that's pretty much how it is now.

> Your story just proves what we all say when people tell us "We know that is a
> bad outfit" and we can add "It is worse than you think!"

Boy, is it ever!

Dan

> Ida Camburn
>
> lermanet.com/garyweber/

Kim P

unread,
Nov 9, 2003, 11:45:22 AM11/9/03
to

Thank you Dan for sharing this with us. It is important that these
accounts are widely disseminated - the more people who can read these
accounts the better. I can only imagine how it felt to be in that room
when those words were spoken...

Kim P

Ball of Fluff

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Nov 9, 2003, 12:52:02 PM11/9/03
to

"Dan Garvin" <dang...@skyenet.net> wrote in message
news:587e24f4.03110...@posting.google.com...

> In the summer of 1985, I had been in OSA Int for less than a year. I
> was in charge of external computerization for OSA, which meant I got
> to go all over the place setting up and taking care of anything that
> had a CPU and wasn't inside OSA Int. Up in Portland, Oregon, the
> "Christo Trial" was getting going. There was already a Trial Unit of
> OSA Int, OSA US, local DSA and other staff and some volunteers. Some

> attorneys were also in Portland - Earle Cooley was the main one I

> one or two OCR - optical character recognition - machines set up. In

> was there, but I came down to hear the decision - and share in the


> victory. When I heard the award against us, I literally did not know
> what to do. I thought it was the end of the world, or pretty close. It
> was impossible and unthinkable. Our religion could be shut down by
> ambulance-chasing attorneys and professional victims. I wandered out
> of the courtroom in a daze. I went down to a park in town and just
> walked around. Everything seemed surreal. But I realized we would not
> just cave in. We would appeal. We would fight with every ounce of our
> strength, and when that was gone, we would still fight on. I started
> to feel a little better. All the same, it was unbelievable. After all,
> RTC and ASI were running things directly, and if anybody would make

> sure LRH legal tech was standardly applied, they would - and still we


> lost. Man, there must be some heavy-duty corruption going on behind
> the scenes, to create such a miscarriage of justice! Well, we'd find
> that, too, and somehow we'd win. We had to. The survival of the world
> depended on it.
>
> So I got tired of moping and headed back to the condo. The execs and
> OSA guys were there; I don't remember which ones but probably most of
> the ones who normally worked or attended conferences there. Nobody was
> saying much; it looked like everybody else hadn't finished moping yet.
> So I took a hint and resumed moping. Every once in a while somebody
> would wonder what the hell we were going to do, or what went wrong,
> and speculate about how bad it was going to be.
>
> After a while, the CO OSA Int, Mike Sutter, spoke up. He said
> (paraphrasing), "I don't care if she thinks she won. That bitch is
> never going to see one single cent. I'll kill her first. I don't care
> if I get the chair -- it's worth it. It's just one lifetime."
>

Pretty disgusting. I was trying to think why someone would ever justify that
and I guess it's like all those crazies who go into Crusades, jihads,
witchhunts, etc.

Religious fundamentalist fervor.

And the reason that provokes this end justifies the means thing is that
these people- CofS- Medieval RCC- radical Islamic terrorists- what have you-
want a theocracy.

C


Warrior

unread,
Nov 9, 2003, 12:42:39 PM11/9/03
to
In article <nt4sqvg63me09lnbi...@4ax.com>, Tilman Hausherr says...

>
>On 8 Nov 2003 23:15:13 -0800, Warrior <war...@xenu.ca> wrote in
><bokpi...@drn.newsguy.com>:
>
>>Do you know if Earle Cooley is a member of Scientology?
>
>Yes, he is.
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=rnewman-ya02408000R2102982223560001%40enews.newsguy.com

Thanks. :)

Warrior - Sunshine disinfects
http://warrior.xenu.ca

>--

Michael Tilse

unread,
Nov 9, 2003, 1:19:13 PM11/9/03
to
In article <587e24f4.03110...@posting.google.com>,
dang...@skyenet.net (Dan Garvin) wrote:

> Warrior <war...@xenu.ca> wrote in message
news:<bokpi...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> > In article <587e24f4.03110...@posting.google.com>, Dan
Garvin says...
> > >
> > >In the summer of 1985, I had been in OSA Int for less than a year. I

*snippage of great stuff by dan garvin and warrior*


I remember this. It was on the ASHO front steps. There were a bunch of
boxes of documents that got returned either from the 1963 FDA raid or the
1977 FBI raid, (Which I was at when they raided the Cedars complex
Guardian's office B-1 bureau), and Heber and Ken Hoden were there in those
'dog collar' minister outfits to <gag><<choke>> "RE-CONSECRATE" these
documents into the church. What a pile of steaming PR!! As if they somehow
had become contaminated by the infidels!

If many of us had really known the information the FBI had, all the
criminal breakins by the church operatives, the Paulette Cooper frameup by
the G.O., and the death threats, the using of confidential PC information
to FAIR GAME ex members, if we had known what was in those files, we would
have run screaming from scientology.

So, Cooley was there and he took upon himself to proclaim that he was now
a Scientologist and gave this speech about him wanting expansion on his
dynamics, etc. Of course, this HERO of the Portland Crusade just made the
crowd go wild with his actually *being* a scientologist. I think it is
just a load of PR crap myself. But it worked. At the time I thought it was
great that this GREAT MAN, the POWERFUL EARL COOLEY, was on the side of
right and apple pie and scientology!

Yet it makes me all the more furious to know he delayed the reporting of
L. Ron Hubbard's death for 11-1/2 hours while, body cooling at their side,
He, Miscavige and the Lenske clique decided how to spin this inconvienient
fact into a myth, to lie to scientologists and to lie to the coroner and
prevent any actual investigation into the cause of death.

Just read Robert Vaughn Young's tale of going to the Creston Ranch that
night. Read the coroner's report and toxicology screen. The only way the
FACTS can be aligned with what scientology tells about that event is to
engage in self-deluding 1984 style "doublethink".

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

>
> > Although I worked primarily in finance during most of my Sea Org days,
> > I knew many Guardian Office and OSA staff members who were thoroughly
> > indoctrinated into the Fair Game mentality that "justified" any criminal
> > actions against those perceived as enemies. And sometimes I would get
> > a chilling look into their activities while preparing the checks for
the ASHO
> > Guardian Office. You see, for a time, Jerry McNeeley (the AGF ASHO) had
> > me preparing all of the checks for the local GO. During the administration
> > of my assigned duties, I would receive the GO Financial Planning folder.
> > So I had many occasions to read the accompanying requests for funds
> > (purchase orders and sometimes even the attached "CSWs"). These were
> > always particularly telling, especially the ones from the AGI Bill
Earls, who
> > ran "ops", and the AG PR John Mettle.

When I was in SMI INT in 1984, John Mettle was HCO Exec Sec (Supercargo, I
think) of SMI INT. He tried to roll-back me because I wanted to leave and
because I was reporting that SMI INT falsified it's international #of
missions stat.

I had also reported that there was an ex-CIA agent who had been the Qual
Sec SMI INT. He was the guy there before me. I was untrained but they
posted me as Qual Sec I/T. I had talked with Warren, the guy before me and
he had told me about his CIA drug smuggling in Viet Nam, etc.

There was nothing to roll-back. The "enemy lines" he was trying to find
were simply my observations of unethical and criminal behavior within the
org which I disagreed with.

He ended up shouting at me, "What are your CRIMES!"

During the time I was at SMI INT I am sorry to say that I did a couple of
"advance man" type of missions for the RTC and Warren McShane. I went to
Denver and to Austin and to Seattle to get the call-in rolling for the RTC
road show in those cities. At the time RTC suffered from bad PR and these
shows were to present the RTC as good guys.

I was quite the cultie then. I remember wearing my S.O. "Officer" uniform
with hat and braid to the airport. I almost got beat up by some Navy guys
for impersonating an officer. My biggest outpoint was that my shoes were
skuffed and not glossy spit shined. They were really ragging me while we
waited for the flight. I found out that S.O. Missionaires don't wear
their uniform traveling. DUH!

I did well according to RTC, getting lots of people to come to the show
for the RTC in these cities. It enhanced RTC PR. Of course, had I known
what was going on behind the scenes, what RTC was really about, I would
have left then and there. If you are one of those who I got to stay on in
the cult by these actions, I plead insanity and I profusely apologize to
you.

I remember sitting with Warren McShane, Vickie Aznaran and some other guy
at a cafe. It was after the event I think. After doing these 'missions'
the RTC liked me.

Another thing I did while I was in SMI was to go with another S.O. Member
to Elmira, New York. Rae Matheson had gone there to try to "handle" Harry
Palmer who was running the Elmira Mission but who had splintered from COS.
Rae wasn't successful, so a mission was arranged to try to get the scene
handled. The court had evidently ruled that since Harry was the only
scientology entity in the area, he had a perfect right to run his mission.
So the RTC idea was to get the parishioners to set up a COS aligned
mission in the area to drive Harry out of business.

I went with Gerald Mc..... I don't remember his name right now. He was
SMI INT staff. He was mission first and I was second.

We stayed in Elmira undercover, "contacting the elmira field" (actually
some Flag Case Completion Intensive graduates, otherwise known as FCCI's)
to get them to get a mission package and set up a recognized COS Mission
there.

It was a dismal failure. We stayed in this motel for almost a month, with
a rented car to travel around. I'm convinced that everyone we saw were
completely in favor of Harry Palmer and they were just jerking us around
and laughing behind our backs. I heard later that RTC was successful in
starting a mission close by, but they had to bring in outside people to
start it, none of the locals would do it.


>
> Yup. Nowadays, OSA finances, and in particular the Investigations
> (intelligence operations) finances, are among the most carefully
> guarded secrets, even within OSA.
>
> Dan
>
> > Recently I spoke with a former Sea Org member who knew Ken Hoden
> > during the time he was in the PAC/GLA GO. My friend heard some really
> > fascinating stories from Ken about Fair Game activities he carried out.
> > It seems Ken used to get pretty loose-lipped when he drank, and he would
> > brag about his Fair Game activities done for the cause of "the greatest
> > good".
> >
> > Yuck.
> >
> > I am so glad I got out of Scientology.
> >
> >
> > Warrior - Sunshine disinfects

Thanks to you both. I really appreciate both your detailed and important
postings of the actual events that transpired on this road to total ruin!
> > http://warrior.xenu.ca

--
Michael Leonard Tilse
SP 2 : scientology has acknowledged me with a truthseeker attack.
Whoo Hoo!

Warrior

unread,
Nov 9, 2003, 12:54:05 PM11/9/03
to

I suspect Rosen has had some "auditing" and indoctrination into
Scientology "ethics".

>Some -- perhaps most -- steadfastly refused to get any auditing at
>all. It might have been a problem in their own religion, or maybe they
>just knew better. But honestly, I don't see how any attorney could in
>good conscience agree to "tell all" to anybody, since he is bound not
>to reveal privileged information from his other clients.
>
>Earle Cooley, though, actually embraced Scientology himself, at least
>for a while. I believe he did announce his involvement at an event I
>attended; the announcement may have been that he was clear (which I
>already knew from being in OSA). He did say that he was proud to call
>himself a Scientologist, or something like that. He was a big and
>well-known hero, and the crowd went wild. But, as usual, we didn't
>hear much about it afterward. I don't know if he continued on the
>Bridge, continued calling himself a Scientologist, or just sort of
>eased himself back out with no fanfare.

I recall an event like that.

>> Although I worked primarily in finance during most of my Sea Org days,
>> I knew many Guardian Office and OSA staff members who were thoroughly
>> indoctrinated into the Fair Game mentality that "justified" any criminal
>> actions against those perceived as enemies. And sometimes I would get
>> a chilling look into their activities while preparing the checks for the ASHO
>> Guardian Office. You see, for a time, Jerry McNeeley (the AGF ASHO) had
>> me preparing all of the checks for the local GO. During the administration
>> of my assigned duties, I would receive the GO Financial Planning folder.
>> So I had many occasions to read the accompanying requests for funds
>> (purchase orders and sometimes even the attached "CSWs"). These were
>> always particularly telling, especially the ones from the AGI Bill Earls, who
>> ran "ops", and the AG PR John Mettle.
>
>Yup. Nowadays, OSA finances, and in particular the Investigations
>(intelligence operations) finances, are among the most carefully
>guarded secrets, even within OSA.
>
>Dan

I doubt nowadays OSA would have the local org's treasury secretary
administering the FP for OSA, as was the case back in my time with
the GO.

Thanks again, Dan.

Zinj

unread,
Nov 9, 2003, 1:46:47 PM11/9/03
to
In article <3fae...@news2.lightlink.com>, csw...@comcast.net
says...
<snip>

> Pretty disgusting. I was trying to think why someone would ever justify that
> and I guess it's like all those crazies who go into Crusades, jihads,
> witchhunts, etc.
>
> Religious fundamentalist fervor.
>
> And the reason that provokes this end justifies the means thing is that
> these people- CofS- Medieval RCC- radical Islamic terrorists- what have you-
> want a theocracy.
>
> C

This is (one reason) people point out your continued
'indoctrination' Claire.

Someone brings up a case seriously indicating murderous intent
by Scientology functionaries and agents, and as automatic and
knee jerk as clockwork, you attempt to dilute it with a 'Well,
it's bad, but everybody *else* does it too!'

It's not just you, it's the *official* 'handling method', and
the only reason to point it out when you do it, is that *you*
are blind to the robotism.

Zinj
--
ScientologyŽ - Deliberately killing no more than 0.5 percent of
its members since 1953

Ball of Fluff

unread,
Nov 9, 2003, 2:13:43 PM11/9/03
to

"Zinj" <zinj...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a182b734...@news2.lightlink.com...


> In article <3fae...@news2.lightlink.com>, csw...@comcast.net
> says...
> <snip>
>
> > Pretty disgusting. I was trying to think why someone would ever justify
that
> > and I guess it's like all those crazies who go into Crusades, jihads,
> > witchhunts, etc.
> >
> > Religious fundamentalist fervor.
> >
> > And the reason that provokes this end justifies the means thing is that
> > these people- CofS- Medieval RCC- radical Islamic terrorists- what have
you-
> > want a theocracy.
> >
> > C
>
> This is (one reason) people point out your continued
> 'indoctrination' Claire.

Only those afflicted with reading comprehension problems and with heads up
asses.

>
> Someone brings up a case seriously indicating murderous intent
> by Scientology functionaries and agents, and as automatic and
> knee jerk as clockwork, you attempt to dilute it with a 'Well,
> it's bad, but everybody *else* does it too!'

No, no, no. That is NOT what I meant.

I was discussing murderous precedent set by other assholes.

>
> It's not just you, it's the *official* 'handling method', and
> the only reason to point it out when you do it, is that *you*
> are blind to the robotism.

No, it's not me at all.

You misrepresented what I was saying.

That's ridiculous.

When I make these comparisons I'm saying that this sucked then it sucks now
and that religious fundamentalism always has the same motive in mind: a
theocracy and that they'll use any means to get it.

I did nothing different than those who compare DM's regime, for example, to
that of Adolph Hitler. And you'd have had NO problem with that.

Get this through your head: I find the church's actions and the statement
that they wanted to kill this woman disgusing and morally reprehensible and
inexcusable.

I also find the Salem witchhunts, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the
terrorist attacks of 9/11 and afterward also reprehensible.

One does NOT excuse the other.

I never wrote ANYTHING of the kind.

I feel that the common thread with all of these is that they want a
theocracy. I don't like theocracies, I hate them. I don't like murder or
even proposed murder and I don't find the events of yesteryear any less
reprehensible than those of today.

I feel that history has some bloody examples that CofS is following and I
feel that one way to understand current events is to understand history.

Had I meant what you mendaciously claimed, I'd have said "Those witchhunts
were really really nifty and this is like those so that excuses it."

I wrote nothing of the kind.

When you look at my posts you don't see them, you only see the writer, and
you don't even see that person because you're too busy creating an imaginary
concept of that person and lying your ass off about her.

You need to knock it off and you owe me an apology.

C


Zinj

unread,
Nov 9, 2003, 3:10:10 PM11/9/03
to
In article <bom51...@drn.newsguy.com>,
ladayla...@newsguy.com says...

> In article <nt4sqvg63me09lnbi...@4ax.com>, Tilman Hausherr says...
> >
> >On 8 Nov 2003 23:15:13 -0800, Warrior <war...@xenu.ca> wrote in
> ><bokpi...@drn.newsguy.com>:
> >
> >>Do you know if Earle Cooley is a member of Scientology?
> >
> >Yes, he is.
> >
> >http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=rnewman-ya02408000R2102982223560001%40enews.newsguy.com
>
> I guess that settles it, then. I slipped into an event, I believe it was called
> 'the Battle of LA', and Earle Cooley said " I am one of you", and the crowd went
> wild. As far as being Clear, I doubt it. He could have attested to Natural
> Clear, like many many others, to serve his own purposes or ego, or to make
> himself more well-thought of among scn'ists. I've seen him in action, and it is
> something to behold. During the Wollersheim trial I was in the courtroom one day
> when Earle Cooley threw an apoplectic fit. He turned red as a beet, fell on the
> floor, and rolled around beating his fists on the floor. He was removed from the
> courtroom.
>
> la

Sounds pretty 'Clear' to me :)

In fact, it sounds like he could attest to 'Natural OT'

Revd. Norle Enturbulata

unread,
Nov 9, 2003, 3:38:15 PM11/9/03
to

"Zinj" <zinj...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a183f00b...@news2.lightlink.com...

I keep thinking back to the batshit-insane routine from KFI done by
whats-his-name, with the "YOU!!!!!" routine. While it makes me laugh every
time I hear it, it's sort of ruined a favorite ELO song, "Thunder and
Lightning", in which Jeff Lynne at one point punctuates the piece with
"YOU!!!" and an echoplex.

I might not remember the $cientology nobody who said it, but it still makes
me chuckle in reminiscence when I read about other batshit-insane behavior
of cult members like the above.


--
Revd. Norle Enturbulata
"Church" of Cartoonism
*
"This volume probably contains more promises and less evidence per page
than has any publication since the invention of printing."
- Review of "Dianetics", Scientific American, 1951

Phil Chitester

unread,
Nov 9, 2003, 4:22:14 PM11/9/03
to
dang...@skyenet.net (Dan Garvin) wrote in message news:<587e24f4.03110...@posting.google.com>...

> In the summer of 1985, I had been in OSA Int for less than a year. I
> was in charge of external computerization for OSA, which meant I got
> to go all over the place setting up and taking care of anything that
> had a CPU and wasn't inside OSA Int. Up in Portland, Oregon, the
> "Christo Trial" was getting going. There was already a Trial Unit of
> OSA Int, OSA US, local DSA and other staff and some volunteers. Some
> attorneys were also in Portland ? Earle Cooley was the main one I
> one or two OCR ? optical character recognition ? machines set up. In
> was there, but I came down to hear the decision ? and share in the

> victory. When I heard the award against us, I literally did not know
> what to do. I thought it was the end of the world, or pretty close. It
> was impossible and unthinkable. Our religion could be shut down by
> ambulance-chasing attorneys and professional victims. I wandered out
> of the courtroom in a daze. I went down to a park in town and just
> walked around. Everything seemed surreal. But I realized we would not
> just cave in. We would appeal. We would fight with every ounce of our
> strength, and when that was gone, we would still fight on. I started
> to feel a little better. All the same, it was unbelievable. After all,
> RTC and ASI were running things directly, and if anybody would make
> sure LRH legal tech was standardly applied, they would ? and still we

> lost. Man, there must be some heavy-duty corruption going on behind
> the scenes, to create such a miscarriage of justice! Well, we'd find
> that, too, and somehow we'd win. We had to. The survival of the world
> depended on it.
>
> So I got tired of moping and headed back to the condo. The execs and
> OSA guys were there; I don't remember which ones but probably most of
> the ones who normally worked or attended conferences there. Nobody was
> saying much; it looked like everybody else hadn't finished moping yet.
> So I took a hint and resumed moping. Every once in a while somebody
> would wonder what the hell we were going to do, or what went wrong,
> and speculate about how bad it was going to be.
>
> After a while, the CO OSA Int, Mike Sutter, spoke up. He said
> (paraphrasing), "I don't care if she thinks she won. That bitch is
> never going to see one single cent. I'll kill her first. I don't care
> if I get the chair -- it's worth it. It's just one lifetime."
>
> I froze. I wasn't moving much to begin with, but I froze solid. I
> didn't want to breathe. I forgot all about our immediate problems. My
> CO had just said he was going to murder Julie Titchbourne. He was
> absolutely serious. I was in shock. Sure, she deserved to die ? all
> heard about ? nor did anybody ever pull me aside and say, "You know we

> would never actually do that, right?" or some such. In fact, a few
> months later he was promoted to RTC. He was still in RTC as late as
> 1995 or so. I don't know if he has been seen in the last few years.
> That could mean a number of things. He could just have a post that
> never requires him to leave the Gold Base, or he could have gone to
> the RPF, or he could have been transferred somewhere else on some
> secret post or mission. Or, for all I know, he could have gone off to
> do the Hit Man Full Hat and Apprenticeship.
>
> Hubbard's Code of Honor says, near as I can recall, "Your honor and
> integrity are more important than your physical body." Also, the third
> and fourth dynamics (the group Scientology, and all mankind) are more
> important than anyone's first dynamic (self ? an SP's life or the life

> of whatever hero murdered the SP). To the average Scientologist and
> perhaps the average SO member, this interpretation of those ideals may
> sound extreme, even beyond extreme. As one nears the top of the
> ladder, though, I think they're pretty typical. What may not be
> typical is the willingness to actually go through with it, mainly
> because the repercussions on Scientology would be far worse than the
> consequences of not committing the murder.
>
> Lurkers, those of you still in the COS ? this is a glimpse at a side

> of RTC that you don't hear about at the International Events. Next
> time you're watching David Miscavige spewing his glib, formulaic PR at
> you, try remembering that this is a man to whom murdering a plaintiff
> was apparently just another option, one that he ultimately rejected in
> favor of a better one, but one he seemed to have no fundamental
> objections to.
>
> Dan Garvin

In other words the Church personnel are human. And the critics aren't.

We knew that.

Phil

Revd. Norle Enturbulata

unread,
Nov 9, 2003, 6:53:40 PM11/9/03
to

"Phil Chitester" <dpchi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b24952a.03110...@posting.google.com...

Both of you, Philsie? You mean the $cientologist reject, AND the
unrepentant child molester?

Phil Chitester

unread,
Nov 10, 2003, 5:46:53 PM11/10/03
to
"Revd. Norle Enturbulata" <nopeeart...@norhotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3fae...@news2.lightlink.com>...

> "Phil Chitester" <dpchi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:b24952a.03110...@posting.google.com...
> > dang...@skyenet.net (Dan Garvin) wrote in message
> news:<587e24f4.03110...@posting.google.com>...
<big snip>

> > > Lurkers, those of you still in the COS ? this is a glimpse at a side
> > > of RTC that you don't hear about at the International Events. Next
> > > time you're watching David Miscavige spewing his glib, formulaic PR at
> > > you, try remembering that this is a man to whom murdering a plaintiff
> > > was apparently just another option, one that he ultimately rejected in
> > > favor of a better one, but one he seemed to have no fundamental
> > > objections to.

No one really does when it comes to the despicable characters opposing
total freedom for all mankind.

> > >
> > > Dan Garvin
> >
> > In other words the Church personnel are human. And the critics aren't.
> >
> > We knew that.
>
> Both of you, Philsie? You mean the $cientologist reject, AND the
> unrepentant child molester?

We means the readers. Except for the ones like yourself.

Get it?

Phil

Revd. Norle Enturbulata

unread,
Nov 10, 2003, 6:24:49 PM11/10/03
to

"Phil Chitester" <dpchi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b24952a.03111...@posting.google.com...

> "Revd. Norle Enturbulata" <nopeeart...@norhotmail.com> wrote in
message news:<3fae...@news2.lightlink.com>...
> > "Phil Chitester" <dpchi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:b24952a.03110...@posting.google.com...
> > > dang...@skyenet.net (Dan Garvin) wrote in message
> > news:<587e24f4.03110...@posting.google.com>...
> <big snip>
>
> > > > Lurkers, those of you still in the COS ? this is a glimpse at a side
> > > > of RTC that you don't hear about at the International Events. Next
> > > > time you're watching David Miscavige spewing his glib, formulaic PR
at
> > > > you, try remembering that this is a man to whom murdering a
plaintiff
> > > > was apparently just another option, one that he ultimately rejected
in
> > > > favor of a better one, but one he seemed to have no fundamental
> > > > objections to.
>
> No one really does when it comes to the despicable characters opposing
> total freedom for all mankind.

Like yourself? If you support the $cientology cult, you are complicit in an
anti-human conspiracy. But you know that already.

> > > >
> > > > Dan Garvin
> > >
> > > In other words the Church personnel are human. And the critics
aren't.
> > >
> > > We knew that.
> >
> > Both of you, Philsie? You mean the $cientologist reject, AND the
> > unrepentant child molester?
>
> We means the readers. Except for the ones like yourself.

Time to bring up those lovely posts about your definition of what sex with a
minor is and isn't, huh Philsie?

> Get it?

You don't read for yourself anyway, but you know that too.

Shy David

unread,
Nov 10, 2003, 7:16:33 PM11/10/03
to
On 9 Nov 2003 13:22:14 -0800, dpchi...@yahoo.com (Phil Chitester)
wrote:

> In other words the church[sic] personnel are human. And the


> critics aren't. We knew that.

Is that why you said you are going to hunt me down and kill me?
Because I'm "not human?"

> Phil

--
http://www.canoe.ca/Columnists/kaufmann.html

"As the charred, corpses pile up in the fiasco he pined so petulantly
for, George W. Bush calls it sweet progress. The White House squatter,
who refuses to visit hospitalized U.S. soldiers he's sent needlessly
to their maiming, remains safely ensconced in his reality vacuum,
trafficking in the narcotic of denial many of his countrymen seem
happy to ingest. To help them swallow, his administration has banned
media pictures of flag-draped caskets returning from Iraq. The world
today is a safer place because of me, babbles this absurd little man,
as yet another car bomb rends flesh and terrorist recruitment basks
in its Bush boom. Osama bin Laden can only hope for four more Bush years."

Chris Leithiser

unread,
Nov 10, 2003, 8:19:30 PM11/10/03
to
Shy David wrote:
>
> On 9 Nov 2003 13:22:14 -0800, dpchi...@yahoo.com (Phil Chitester)
> wrote:
>
> > In other words the church[sic] personnel are human. And the
> > critics aren't. We knew that.
>
> Is that why you said you are going to hunt me down and kill me?
> Because I'm "not human?"

Pity him, David. He doesn't know he's a replicant.

realpch

unread,
Nov 11, 2003, 1:37:37 AM11/11/03
to
Warrior wrote:
<snip>

> I suspect Rosen has had some "auditing" and indoctrination into
> Scientology "ethics".

Is the Sandy Rosen in the completions stats at
www.truthaboutscientology.com the lawyer Sandy Rosen?

Peach

Zinj

unread,
Nov 11, 2003, 2:12:38 AM11/11/03
to
In article <3FB083B1...@aol.com>, rea...@aol.com says...

Magic Wog Ball says: All signs point to no.

realpch

unread,
Nov 11, 2003, 3:24:22 AM11/11/03
to
Zinj wrote:
>
> In article <3FB083B1...@aol.com>, rea...@aol.com says...
> > Warrior wrote:
> > <snip>
> > > I suspect Rosen has had some "auditing" and indoctrination into
> > > Scientology "ethics".
> >
> > Is the Sandy Rosen in the completions stats at
> > www.truthaboutscientology.com the lawyer Sandy Rosen?
> >
> > Peach
>
> Magic Wog Ball says: All signs point to no.
>
> Zinj

Well there's a relief. I hated to have my view of him as a ruthless
lawyer tarnished by the image of him as a, uh, cult victim.

Peach

Thomas J Best

unread,
Nov 11, 2003, 5:04:07 AM11/11/03
to
Zinj <zinj...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.1a1a2bbd8...@news2.lightlink.com>...

> In article <3FB083B1...@aol.com>, rea...@aol.com says...
> > Warrior wrote:
> > <snip>
> > > I suspect Rosen has had some "auditing" and indoctrination into
> > > Scientology "ethics".
> >
> > Is the Sandy Rosen in the completions stats at
> > www.truthaboutscientology.com the lawyer Sandy Rosen?
> >
> > Peach
>
> Magic Wog Ball says: All signs point to no.
>
> Zinj

Phooey. If you'd had to decipher as many typos in simple
names lists as the elfs have, you'd be wondering whether
the name wasn't really 'Randy Souser' :-P


tam

"Of the few innocent pleasures left....
the jamming of commonsense down the throats
of fools is perhaps the keenest."
Thomas Huxley
http://www.scientology-lies.com
http://www.xenu.net
http://www.newsfrombree.co.uk/
http://warrior.xenu.ca
www.lisamcpherson.org

Thomas J Best

unread,
Nov 11, 2003, 5:13:30 AM11/11/03
to
Chris Leithiser <clei...@bc.cc.ca.us> wrote in message news:<3FB03922...@bc.cc.ca.us>...

Uhoh. Me neither. In fact, there's a piece of gospel which
might help us out here. Has ElRon asked you for a favour?:

"When I solve a case I always ask the pc for one unnamed favor.(sic)
I've never called those favors(sic) in. The favor(sic) I tell you now
for the first time: What ever(sic) else you are, be a good Scientologist
and help me clear these Earth People."

I was never asked for any favours. Maybe I'm not an Earth person.

tam

"Of the few innocent pleasures left....
the jamming of commonsense down the throats
of fools is perhaps the keenest."
Thomas Huxley
http://www.scientology-lies.com
http://www.xenu.net
http://www.newsfrombree.co.uk/
http://warrior.xenu.ca

http://www.lisamcpherson.org

Phil Chitester

unread,
Nov 11, 2003, 9:27:50 PM11/11/03
to
bent_...@badaddress.org (Shy David) wrote in message news:<3fb0...@news2.lightlink.com>...

> On 9 Nov 2003 13:22:14 -0800, dpchi...@yahoo.com (Phil Chitester)
> wrote:
>
> > In other words the church[sic] personnel are human. And the
> > critics aren't. We knew that.
>
> Is that why you said you are going to hunt me down and kill me?
> Because I'm "not human?"

They usually use chemicals to get rid of things like that.

As far as I know.

Phil

Feisty

unread,
Nov 14, 2003, 1:06:58 PM11/14/03
to

Dan Garvin <dang...@skyenet.net> wrote in message
news:587e24f4.03110...@posting.google.com...
> In the summer of 1985, I had been in OSA Int for less than a year. I
> was in charge of external computerization for OSA, which meant I got
> to go all over the place setting up and taking care of anything that
> had a CPU and wasn't inside OSA Int. Up in Portland, Oregon, the
> "Christo Trial" was getting going. There was already a Trial Unit of
> OSA Int, OSA US, local DSA and other staff and some volunteers. Some
> attorneys were also in Portland - Earle Cooley was the main one I
> one or two OCR - optical character recognition - machines set up. In
> was there, but I came down to hear the decision - and share in the

> victory. When I heard the award against us, I literally did not know
> what to do. I thought it was the end of the world, or pretty close. It
> was impossible and unthinkable. Our religion could be shut down by
> ambulance-chasing attorneys and professional victims. I wandered out
> of the courtroom in a daze. I went down to a park in town and just
> walked around. Everything seemed surreal. But I realized we would not
> just cave in. We would appeal. We would fight with every ounce of our
> strength, and when that was gone, we would still fight on. I started
> to feel a little better. All the same, it was unbelievable. After all,
> RTC and ASI were running things directly, and if anybody would make
> sure LRH legal tech was standardly applied, they would - and still we

> lost. Man, there must be some heavy-duty corruption going on behind
> the scenes, to create such a miscarriage of justice! Well, we'd find
> that, too, and somehow we'd win. We had to. The survival of the world
> depended on it.
>
> So I got tired of moping and headed back to the condo. The execs and
> OSA guys were there; I don't remember which ones but probably most of
> the ones who normally worked or attended conferences there. Nobody was
> saying much; it looked like everybody else hadn't finished moping yet.
> So I took a hint and resumed moping. Every once in a while somebody
> would wonder what the hell we were going to do, or what went wrong,
> and speculate about how bad it was going to be.
>
> After a while, the CO OSA Int, Mike Sutter, spoke up. He said
> (paraphrasing), "I don't care if she thinks she won. That bitch is
> never going to see one single cent. I'll kill her first. I don't care
> if I get the chair -- it's worth it. It's just one lifetime."
>
> I froze. I wasn't moving much to begin with, but I froze solid. I
> didn't want to breathe. I forgot all about our immediate problems. My
> CO had just said he was going to murder Julie Titchbourne. He was
> absolutely serious. I was in shock. Sure, she deserved to die - all
> heard about - nor did anybody ever pull me aside and say, "You know we

> would never actually do that, right?" or some such. In fact, a few
> months later he was promoted to RTC. He was still in RTC as late as
> 1995 or so. I don't know if he has been seen in the last few years.
> That could mean a number of things. He could just have a post that
> never requires him to leave the Gold Base, or he could have gone to
> the RPF, or he could have been transferred somewhere else on some
> secret post or mission. Or, for all I know, he could have gone off to
> do the Hit Man Full Hat and Apprenticeship.
>
> Hubbard's Code of Honor says, near as I can recall, "Your honor and
> integrity are more important than your physical body." Also, the third
> and fourth dynamics (the group Scientology, and all mankind) are more
> important than anyone's first dynamic (self - an SP's life or the life

> of whatever hero murdered the SP). To the average Scientologist and
> perhaps the average SO member, this interpretation of those ideals may
> sound extreme, even beyond extreme. As one nears the top of the
> ladder, though, I think they're pretty typical. What may not be
> typical is the willingness to actually go through with it, mainly
> because the repercussions on Scientology would be far worse than the
> consequences of not committing the murder.
>
> Lurkers, those of you still in the COS - this is a glimpse at a side

> of RTC that you don't hear about at the International Events. Next
> time you're watching David Miscavige spewing his glib, formulaic PR at
> you, try remembering that this is a man to whom murdering a plaintiff
> was apparently just another option, one that he ultimately rejected in
> favor of a better one, but one he seemed to have no fundamental
> objections to.

I am late in answering alot lately, but had to comment on your post.

It's like a breath of fresh air hearing the stories over the past weeks.
I hope this becomes a norm, because it is invaluable. It is these types
of dialogues, educating stories that will help to bring back honesty and
compassion for people to heal. Thanks for your honesty and will to
help people understand - through even one set of incidents - what people
approach (and some don't see) as they continue to become ensnared by
this organization.

Awareness, identification of wrongs, rectification and discontinuance of
these totalitarian policies are not just limited to the people within this
organization. They are fed by what we are willing to accept as "social norms,"
and we too must be willing to accept the fact of the way things happen in order to help
become aware, and accept people, to reinforce responsibility with compassion towards a way back
to a normal life. (eg, I like the world as imperfect as it seems, but do not have to find a
better way by this means). Otherwise their only way to rectify is back in. There is great deal
of mistrust and fear placed upon members to make it near impossible to talk about experiences.
There is also a great deal of effort to shake peoples sense of wellbeing in their relationships
with members who leave.


I acknowledge your sharing as a good thing. I can't explain it but it helps to melt
this huge bridge that separates so many people from talking to one another and
sharing the things that they recognized as wrong. Some people have said it feels
like something is lifted when they share their experience and begin to fill their life
with other good things. I felt that too, (odd as it sounds) reading your post and reading the
stories that people have shared lately. It draws people closer to hear such honesty I think. It
offers hope towards reuniting members to a world that seems impossible at times.

It's normal to get mad at $cientology and members when they do things that are only
for their own purpose. But the more we know about how it really felt helps immensely
to heal everyone who is or has been affected. It is honorable.

Thanks,

Feisty
>
> Dan Garvin
>


Dan Garvin

unread,
Nov 14, 2003, 6:25:31 PM11/14/03
to
Thanks, Feisty. I appreciate it.

I hope more and more people will tell their stories. Scientology loves to
scare people into silence and then say, "See? It's just a handful of lying
wackos and villains!" But they can't go after everybody, and the more people
speak out, the more picky they will have to be about who they attack.

Dan


"Feisty" <su...@skytoday.com> wrote in message
news:6R8tb.489$4X4.3...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...

Warrior

unread,
Nov 17, 2003, 11:46:37 PM11/17/03
to
In article <mtilse-0911...@192.168.0.2>, Michael Tilse says...

>
>When I was in SMI INT in 1984, John Mettle was HCO Exec Sec (Supercargo,
>I think) of SMI INT. He tried to roll-back me because I wanted to leave and
>because I was reporting that SMI INT falsified it's international #of missions
>stat.

Did you know his wife, Pat?

Any idea where John is these days?

Was he Gerald McNally?

Michael Tilse

unread,
Nov 18, 2003, 12:20:02 AM11/18/03
to
In article <bpc87...@drn.newsguy.com>, Warrior <war...@xenu.ca> wrote:

> In article <mtilse-0911...@192.168.0.2>, Michael Tilse says...
> >
> >When I was in SMI INT in 1984, John Mettle was HCO Exec Sec (Supercargo,
> >I think) of SMI INT. He tried to roll-back me because I wanted to leave and
> >because I was reporting that SMI INT falsified it's international #of
missions
> >stat.
>
> Did you know his wife, Pat?

I don't think I knew his wife, nor where he might be these days. He seemed
pretty committed to the cult back then. Of course many of us did, despite
our private doubts.

That sounds about right. Older guy than I. More experience and years in the S.O.

Thanks warrior.


>
> Warrior - Sunshine disinfects
> http://warrior.xenu.ca

--

Dave Bird

unread,
Nov 25, 2003, 7:52:25 PM11/25/03
to
In article<587e24f4.03110...@posting.google.com>, Dan Garvin
<dang...@skyenet.net> writes:
>The Christo case is a fascinating story, but one I don't know very well.
>What's relevant to this post is, we lost. The jury awarded Julie
>Titchbourne something like $30 million. Nothing like this had ever
>happened before (so I was told and believed). [ 8<... ]

>So I got tired of moping and headed back to the condo. The execs and OSA
>guys were there; I don't remember which ones but probably most of the
>ones who normally worked or attended conferences there. Nobody was
>saying much; it looked like everybody else hadn't finished moping yet.
>So I took a hint and resumed moping. Every once in a while somebody
>would wonder what the hell we were going to do, or what went wrong, and
>speculate about how bad it was going to be.
>After a while, the CO OSA Int, Mike Sutter, spoke up. He said
>(paraphrasing), "I don't care if she thinks she won. That bitch is never
>going to see one single cent. I'll kill her first. I don't care if I get
>the chair -- it's worth it. It's just one lifetime."
>
>I froze. I wasn't moving much to begin with, but I froze solid. I didn't
>want to breathe. I forgot all about our immediate problems. My CO had
>just said he was going to murder Julie Titchbourne. He was absolutely
>serious. I was in shock. Sure, she deserved to die – all SPs did. But
>you can't actually *do* that that sort of thing. My thoughts raced.
>Please, I thought, please, somebody say something that will make this
>stop. I was trying to think what I could say. If I said the wrong thing,
>or said it the wrong way, I'd be out of there that night and getting sec
>checked the next day. But this was madness!
>
>There was not a sound in the room. It seemed like ten minutes but was
>probably only one. Finally Miscavige spoke up. Here's what he *didn't*
>say: He didn't say, "Sutter, you're fucking crazy, we don't kill
>people!" He didn't say, "You're joking, right?" He didn't explain that
>Julie's estate would still get the money or that killing a plaintiff
>would be a hundred times worse for the Church than paying her even the
>whole $30 million. He just said, "No, this is what we're going to do."
>And then launched what within a day or two became the Portland Crusade.

I can understand the psychology here. Now, don't get me wrong, they
were a bunch of swine and cheating this poor woman out of the
compensation they owed here was not a good thing. But I can almost
admire Poodelboy for the way he handled it.


Sutter was defeated, despairing, and therefore desperate: he though he
had lost everything worth living for, and therefore was willing to
throw away what was left to get revenge.

Poodleboy was NOT defeated, he was resourceful and decisive, he saw
the way out. There was no need for him to say "we are not defeated
and we are not going to do anything desperate." that was a given
once he said "no, this is what we are going to do about it."


-- . . : : ,; . : ' ___.
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' ' :' : :' : .::. H_ ~~~|
< > __ ,;;,. \\::// R_) |
'-|"""(") {__}::===== ....'''' ' ' ' ___..\||/....L\. ...|
____||--|_'--/__\___ '' .--''':::::::::::::::::::::
\ / /////////////S.Coronado/////
;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^
LRonHubbard is shelled byGoats inHell.READ http://www.ronthewarhero.org

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